TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, May 23, 2013
9:00 a.m. work session
This file represents an unedited version of realtime
captioning which should neither be relied upon for complete
accuracy nor used as a verbatim transcript.
The original of this file was produced in all capital
letters and any variation thereto may be a result of third
party edits and software compatibility issues.
Any person who needs a verbatim transcript of the
proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.
09:07:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: City Council is called to session.
09:07:12 Chair yields to Lisa Montelione.
09:07:16 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I would like to introduce the invocation
09:07:18 this morning.
09:07:19 Reverend Freddie Fritz.
09:07:24 Reverend Fritz is a senior pastor in Bruce B. Downs in
09:07:30 Freddie is originally from South Africa and came to the
09:07:33 United States in 1983 to study theological studies in
09:07:36 Illinois of the following service as an associate pastor at
09:07:40 churches in Pennsylvania he joined Tampa Bay Presbyterian
09:07:42 church as senior pastor in 2002.
09:07:45 Reverend Fritz and his wife Arlene have grown children.
09:07:50 Eileen also serves as children's director at the church.
09:07:54 Please stand for the invocation and remain standing for the
09:07:57 pledge of allegiance.
09:07:58 >> Lord our God, hour grateful that we are that we can
09:08:02 gather here on this day.
09:08:03 I thank you for this opportunity to begin the proceedings
09:08:09 today with the City Council with prayer.
09:08:14 Thank you for those who have been elected to serve on the
09:08:16 City Council and in all of the various places in this great
09:08:20 I pray for the proceedings today.
09:08:22 I pray that you give the council members the wisdom and
09:08:26 grace and compassion as they deal with the issues before
09:08:29 them, whether they are complex or mundane or difficult.
09:08:35 I pray that all that is done today with honoring to you and
09:08:38 for the good of this great city and all this I pray in
09:08:43 Jesus' name.
09:08:45 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:08:47 >> Roll call.
09:09:07 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.
09:09:10 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Present.
09:09:10 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.
09:09:13 >>HARRY COHEN: Here.
09:09:14 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Here.
09:09:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:09:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: First item on the agenda is commendation
09:09:23 for police Officer of the Month and Frank Reddick will do
09:09:26 those honors.
09:09:27 >>FRANK REDDICK: Good morning, council.
09:09:44 I would like to present this commendation to the Officer of
09:09:46 the Month for the month of May 2013, officer David Hancock.
09:09:53 I hand it over to the chief.
09:09:54 >> Chief Castor: Again it's my honor to stand before you
09:10:00 and bring you Tampa's best and brightest.
09:10:02 As you are all aware we have a school resource officer
09:10:05 program which is an outstanding program.
09:10:07 We have police officers that are assigned to all the high
09:10:10 schools and middle schools, and they have a meeting once a
09:10:14 month for training and going over different issues with the
09:10:17 department and the schools.
09:10:20 And I try to make as many of those as I can and talk to them
09:10:23 about the importance of their function.
09:10:25 First and foremost, they are there to keep the school
09:10:28 environment safe for the children, and so that they can
09:10:31 focus on learning.
09:10:33 But secondly, and I feel just as important, is their ability
09:10:38 to provide a role model and mentor, be a mentor for the
09:10:43 children in those schools, and sometimes be the only
09:10:48 positive influence in some of these children's lives, and I
09:10:50 get letters on a regular basis commending the officers'
09:10:54 actions where someone will write in and say my son was just
09:10:57 on the edge of getting in trouble when the officer took him
09:11:00 under his wing, and his grades have improved as has his
09:11:08 Think officers do an outstanding job and all understand the
09:11:11 importance of that function.
09:11:12 It's my honor to bring one of our school resource officers
09:11:15 before you today, officer David Hancock.
09:11:19 You can come up here.
09:11:20 Everybody is shy when all of a sudden they are on
09:11:23 He's one of our school resource officers currently assigned
09:11:26 to Chamberlain high school, where myself and Jim Shimberg
09:11:29 graduated from about 100 and some years ago.
09:11:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It was 152.
09:11:38 Chief Castor: Thank you for clarifying that, Chairman
09:11:41 I really appreciate it.
09:11:42 But earlier this year he realized there were some young kids
09:11:45 dealing drugs on the campus.
09:11:47 And so he worked tirelessly while soliciting the assistance
09:11:51 from the rapid offender control squad in an undercover
09:11:55 capacity and was able to arrest two of the individuals that
09:11:57 were supplying the drugs to those students.
09:12:00 During the spring break this year, he was assigned to
09:12:03 district 2 patrol to conduct proactive patrol throughout
09:12:07 district 2, and he and his partner led the squad in arrests
09:12:12 making several arrests including aggravated assault with a
09:12:16 deadly weapon and a grand theft arrest.
09:12:18 In March of 2013, a student committed a robbery using a
09:12:23 taser on another student, and also responded immediately, he
09:12:29 saw the defendant who fled -- and this is very impressive,
09:12:32 too, to us older people, Chairman Miranda -- (laughter) and
09:12:37 actually chased the individual down.
09:12:39 A high school students.
09:12:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, mother Castor.
09:12:44 [ Laughter ]
09:12:44 >> Something that we wouldn't be able to do in our advanced
09:12:48 stage, without a doubt.
09:12:49 And the defendant admitted to the officer and he able was --
09:12:56 actually was able to recover the taser as well.
09:12:59 He found out there was some gang activity at the Chamberlain
09:13:02 high school campus involving a group that called themselves
09:13:06 the black outlaws.
09:13:08 So he educated himself on this, worked with HCSO and Tampa
09:13:13 Bay's gang squad, brought them in, and as a result of his
09:13:17 investigation and his efforts, there were several
09:13:20 individuals that were placed under arrest.
09:13:24 David takes ownership of the students, whether they are in
09:13:26 school, just down the street, which is very important to us
09:13:29 as an agency.
09:13:30 He has outstanding working relationships not only with
09:13:33 patrol but with ROC and the detectives in district 2, and he
09:13:37 cares deeply about the welfare and environments of
09:13:39 Chamberlain high school and the community in general.
09:13:42 He has done an outstanding job all the way around.
09:13:45 And it is my honor to name him as officer of the months for
09:13:50 May 2013.
09:13:53 [ Applause ]
09:13:56 >> On behalf of Tampa City Council, we would like to present
09:13:59 you this commendation for being selected Officer of the
09:14:01 Month for May 2013.
09:14:04 >> Thank you, sir.
09:14:08 >>FRANK REDDICK: We also have some goodies for you.
09:14:15 >> Good morning.
09:14:21 I'm Frank DeSoto with Bill Currie Ford.
09:14:26 It's my pleasure to take part in this program.
09:14:27 I have with me this morning our new general manager, Tim
09:14:30 Joslin, and we want to let everyone know how pleased we are
09:14:36 to be a part of it.
09:14:37 Congratulations to you.
09:14:38 And we would like to present with you this watch as a token
09:14:41 of our appreciation for a job well done.
09:14:46 Thank you.
09:14:48 >> Chip Deblock, City of Tampa PBA.
09:14:55 We are part congratulations, Dave, on behalf of the PBA.
09:15:03 We have a $100 gift certificate for you ... and your wife.
09:15:07 [ Laughter ]
09:15:09 >> Jill la techy with Tampa Theatre.
09:15:13 Thank you for everything that you do for us.
09:15:15 On behalf of the theater, we would like to present you and
09:15:17 your wife with an annual membership to the theater.
09:15:20 >> Joe Durkin on behalf of Bright House networks.
09:15:30 Congratulations on a job well done.
09:15:31 From all of us at BrightHouse Network, we want to present
09:15:34 you with one month complimentary service with high speed
09:15:39 phone and video.
09:15:40 >> Thank you, officer Hancock.
09:15:47 With the Straz center, we are here to present you with
09:15:49 tickets to a program coming up in June for you and three of
09:15:55 your favorite friends, hopefully your wife included.
09:16:10 Thank you so much for keeping our schools safe.
09:16:12 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepps Towing service, and on
09:16:22 behalf of Jim, Todd and Judy Stepp, we would like to present
09:16:27 this small token of our appreciation, and $50 gift
09:16:31 certificate to Lee Roy Selmons.
09:16:39 >> This is a get out of jail free card.
09:16:45 I cleared it with the chief.
09:16:50 Steve Michelini.
09:16:51 I'm here on behalf of prestige portraits.
09:16:54 They are going to not provide a photograph for you but for
09:16:56 your wife.
09:16:57 But you can go.
09:17:01 You will have your whole family there.
09:17:04 And she's going to the theater?
09:17:07 Does she want to go to Bern's?
09:17:10 >> I know she would.
09:17:11 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Here is a certificate.
09:17:17 Enjoy yourself.
09:17:19 Thank you very much.
09:17:19 And I just wanted to say very quickly that the resource
09:17:22 officers in the school are your first line of defense, and
09:17:28 it helps a lot to deter that crime, and having your eyes and
09:17:31 ears open in that venue helps everybody.
09:17:35 So thank you very much.
09:17:35 >> Good morning.
09:17:43 First of all, I'm blessed and honored to be here today.
09:17:49 I was 21 years active duty military, almost ten years a
09:17:53 police officer now.
09:17:54 So once she realized I wasn't going to fall down and die, he
09:18:04 quit and that was good for me.
09:18:05 So it's at times like this that I am reminded of what my
09:18:09 grandpa told me before he died.
09:18:11 He said, Dave, ahhh.
09:18:18 So I try to live by that to this day.
09:18:20 [ Laughter ]
09:18:28 I want to thank the chief.
09:18:29 I want to thank you.
09:18:33 Corporal Kim Jones and corporal Haines who started the ball
09:18:38 And what I would like to do quickly is kind of fill in the
09:18:41 blanks about the schools.
09:18:43 I will just talk about this incidents, and if I have time
09:18:45 just get to a larger points which is this.
09:18:48 Over this period of time, I had four drug dealers on my
09:18:53 One of those kids got off campus before I was able to get my
09:18:56 hands on him.
09:18:57 I know it makes my school safer when I get these guys.
09:19:00 And those kids are my kids.
09:19:02 That's how you feel about it.
09:19:06 I'm like a hound dog on a pork chop and try to shake trees
09:19:12 and knocking on doors, I get anonymous tips, another kid
09:19:15 comes to make a drug deal, snatch that kid, responder guys
09:19:20 show up, and supervisors are great in those units.
09:19:24 We get two, three more arrests outs of that.
09:19:27 And I am finally shaking up trees and like I said, everybody
09:19:35 is going down.
09:19:36 You got to bring them in.
09:19:39 And I say that not to pat myself on the back.
09:19:45 I say this to say this is what school resource officers do
09:19:48 on day in and day out at schools.
09:19:50 They work hard.
09:19:52 Kids are important to them.
09:19:53 We are the first line of defense.
09:19:55 And that's a fact.
09:19:56 And it's the most challenging police job I have ever put my
09:20:02 foot into.
09:20:03 It's the hardest job.
09:20:04 But I have an impact on those kids.
09:20:06 And that's why I stay.
09:20:07 And so I appreciate it very much.
09:20:09 And thank you.
09:20:10 [ Applause ]
09:20:18 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
09:20:20 I have got to say that Chamberlain high school has produced
09:20:23 many great leaders in Tampa, Chief Castor included, and
09:20:30 Chamberlain is a wonderful school.
09:20:35 And part of that success is because of the detail and the
09:20:40 caring that's shown by everyone who is there.
09:20:44 And your job as a resource officer as you said has got to be
09:20:47 one of the hardest, because, you know, you have to deal with
09:20:50 kids who, as you know, think they are all grown up and know
09:20:56 So it's a tough age to deal with.
09:20:59 But the teenagers are going to be our future leaders.
09:21:04 And they are going to come out of Chamberlain high school.
09:21:07 And I think the exposure and the caring and, you know, the
09:21:11 time that you put in with those individuals today is going
09:21:15 to pay off in the future.
09:21:16 So on behalf of all of the parents who have children at
09:21:21 Chamberlain, who are there now or come through there, thank
09:21:24 you very much for what you do.
09:21:29 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
09:21:29 Mr. Suarez?
09:21:30 >>MIKE SUAREZ: One last comment.
09:21:32 Officer, I can see why you are successful over at
09:21:37 Your sense of humor must obviously be of good use to you
09:21:42 over at the high school.
09:21:43 And, you know, we are glad to see -- and you pointed out in
09:21:47 your story about how you were able to have someone's mother
09:21:52 bring in the perpetrator, with the communication that is
09:21:55 necessary within the school is more important than anything
09:21:58 else you are going to do, and I think you already know that.
09:22:01 But I just want to tell you, keep that sense of humor,
09:22:04 because you are going to need it as much as possible.
09:22:06 We really appreciate everything you do over at Chamberlain
09:22:10 high school.
09:22:10 >> And one more.
09:22:13 Two things.
09:22:14 My lovely wife who you have been married to now going on 16
09:22:18 We have been through thick and thin.
09:22:21 Everybody knows as an officer, it's a tough job, and I
09:22:25 couldn't do way do without her.
09:22:29 Mr. Bell from Chamberlain high school is here to represent
09:22:32 the school.
09:22:33 The cooperation and teamwork that I have with him, I cannot
09:22:36 feel free to do the things I do like hop in an undercover
09:22:41 van to go look for a kid that's dealing dope.
09:22:44 It's an absolute partnership.
09:22:46 Thank you.
09:22:47 >> And I want to thank you for recognizing your wife.
09:22:49 You wouldn't be a police officer much longer.
09:22:52 [ Laughter ]
09:22:56 >> From one bald headed guy to another, you would be in deep
09:23:03 trouble, brother.
09:23:04 Anyone else?
09:23:05 Thank you all very much for what you do.
09:23:07 Appreciate it, must Castor.
09:23:10 Have a nice day.
09:23:31 We go tots workshops.
09:23:33 Need a motion to open 2, 3 and 4.
09:23:38 The workshops are now open.
09:23:42 Item number 2 is on the agenda.
09:23:52 Ms. Capin?
09:23:53 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Briefly, because I brought this forth, I
09:24:02 thought about it and I believe it is still needed, and I
09:24:06 want to reiterate that this is not -- it is not critical of
09:24:09 the administration.
09:24:10 This is a reflection on us.
09:24:12 And this is about our work here.
09:24:21 I will reserve anything else to the end.
09:24:23 I would like to hear what my fellow council members have to
09:24:26 say and I would be blessed.
09:24:27 Thank you.
09:24:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Anyone else?
09:24:29 Ms. Mulhern?
09:24:30 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
09:24:36 I was going to work on my e-mail some of the comments I have
09:24:39 written, but it's too technical for me and I can't read it
09:24:43 and it's too small so I will just try to remember.
09:24:46 I want to give a little history on this.
09:24:49 There was -- I trust he wrote it, a good background piece,
09:24:57 and Councilwoman Capin made this motion, but there's a
09:25:02 little more to fill in behind that.
09:25:08 When I first got on council in 2007, I asked for the exact
09:25:15 same thing.
09:25:19 In fact I met with Jan Platt because I found out that she
09:25:22 was the one that had written in into the charter, and got it
09:25:27 passed on the council that she sat on.
09:25:30 And it turns out, I believe that the only period -- and I'm
09:25:36 sure that Mr. Miranda can fill us in on this -- the only
09:25:41 period where the council did have a budget adviser was
09:25:44 actually an employee, city employee of the budget and
09:25:48 finance department.
09:25:49 So it wasn't actually the chartered position that we are
09:25:55 entitled to hire in the agenda.
09:26:01 I felt very strongly then and still do now that considering,
09:26:06 you know, we have been close to and probably will be again
09:26:10 soon with the economy recovering a little bit, to a billion
09:26:16 dollar budget in the city, and we are passing dozens of
09:26:22 appropriations a week, and we are approving the overall
09:26:27 budget every year, and we have no direct support staff to
09:26:33 help us navigate through that.
09:26:37 You know, we have two major responsibilities on council.
09:26:40 One of them is the zoning hearings that we do, and the other
09:26:43 one is approving budgets appropriations.
09:26:49 So the fact that we have no professional independent staff
09:26:54 that reports to us on these important decisions we make
09:26:59 constantly, I think it's unbelievable.
09:27:03 And it's been close to 50 years that that position hasn't
09:27:06 been filled.
09:27:07 So if we are going to talk about the costs of hiring either
09:27:12 a contractor, or city employee to fill that position,
09:27:17 there's certainly got to be a little bit of reserve money
09:27:19 for all those years that we can use to pay for that person.
09:27:25 I can't remember what happened, but at first we did have --
09:27:29 it sounded like a majority vote in 2008 to look into hiring.
09:27:34 So apparently we voted -- did not vote to pursue that.
09:27:40 And that's when I came up with the concept of having the
09:27:43 budget advisory committee.
09:27:45 The budget advisory committee are just advisors to us that
09:27:50 we each appoint.
09:27:52 And they have been doing a fantastic job.
09:27:54 And that was met with a lot of resistance from the
09:27:57 administration for at least a year or more when we first
09:28:02 formed that committee.
09:28:03 But they have now come around to actually using them as a
09:28:07 resource, running ideas by them to find out to get that you
09:28:13 are expertise and also to get their opinion as
09:28:15 representatives of the public.
09:28:17 And also to, you know, find out if some of the proposals
09:28:24 that are coming from the administration are likely to get
09:28:26 support from council.
09:28:27 So that's been a very, very successful initiative that was
09:28:38 not at all accepted.
09:28:40 And we had a hard time getting four people on council to
09:28:44 vote for it too back then.
09:28:46 So I just want everyone to think long and hard about this,
09:28:49 because I just can't see any down side to it.
09:28:55 Having a budget analyst gives us accountability to the
09:28:58 public, it gives us expertise and advice on making our
09:29:03 decisions, and it's going to help with transparency, and
09:29:10 it's going to help us save money.
09:29:11 We don't have the time to go through -- I mean, I know we
09:29:16 We try to go through item by item by item every week at
09:29:20 budget time.
09:29:21 But it is impossible for us to be able to dig down deep
09:29:26 enough to find some of the savings, some of the
09:29:28 redundancies, some of the good things that we could offer to
09:29:36 this budget, to our citizens, to protect how we are spending
09:29:40 those taxpayer dollars.
09:29:42 That's it.
09:29:43 I don't have anything else.
09:29:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
09:29:44 Anyone else?
09:29:48 Mr. Suarez?
09:29:49 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I just have a couple comments.
09:29:53 I'm on the opposite side of my colleagues on this particular
09:29:56 issue, primarily there's a few issues in my mind in terms of
09:30:00 the workability of it is one, but also in terms of what we
09:30:04 are trying to accomplish.
09:30:05 Our role as City Council, as I see it, is that we make
09:30:10 decisions based on direction in terms of how we are going to
09:30:14 spend our dollars.
09:30:14 There are certain things that we have inherited by virtue of
09:30:19 previous councils that have been before us that we have to
09:30:23 pay, that we have to be a part of, that we have to find
09:30:26 revenue in order to continues.
09:30:28 That's something that unfortunately is something that is a
09:30:32 burden on us each and every day.
09:30:34 We deal with it on the land use issues.
09:30:35 We deal with it on the budget issues.
09:30:37 I think a budget analyst position, because there is -- and
09:30:41 this is a little different than what the county does -- the
09:30:44 county, because they don't have, other than an appointed
09:30:50 administrator who they hire and have the right to fire under
09:30:53 certain circumstances, that everything is directed by the
09:31:00 We, on the other hand, because we have a strong mayor
09:31:02 system, everything is directed through the mayor who is a
09:31:07 duly elected official, as we are.
09:31:09 We have a right and a duty to make sure that what goes
09:31:12 through the budget is as clear and as succinct and as
09:31:19 efficient as possible.
09:31:20 That is the way I see our job, or at least my job.
09:31:24 Adding a budget analyst -- and I will say in my in two years
09:31:28 on the council I haven't had any issues at all with the
09:31:31 folks over at budget.
09:31:32 They have been very helpful.
09:31:33 They have been very, I think, clear in terms of what our
09:31:39 budget situation is.
09:31:41 Adding a budget analyst here I don't think would cause us to
09:31:46 do anything more different than what we do now.
09:31:50 The second thing is that I think the citizens advisory
09:31:53 committee that we have now for budgets has done a terrific
09:31:56 job in terms of looking at those specific areas that may
09:32:00 have some -- presenting it to us, I know that all of you and
09:32:07 myself included meet with our individual selections, the
09:32:10 people on the budget committee.
09:32:11 They have come up with some terrific ideas and they will be
09:32:13 presenting that to us, I think, next week before our budget
09:32:16 cycle starts.
09:32:19 In my mind, our role is to be essentially the purveyors of
09:32:25 what the policy questions are in terms of budgeting.
09:32:30 The analyst position will only do a technical job in terms
09:32:33 of what we already have folks that do that.
09:32:36 Numbers are numbers.
09:32:37 Not necessarily, you know, we have an OMB nationally, we do
09:32:43 have a congressional budget office.
09:32:44 Sometimes they disagree with numbers, primarily for
09:32:47 political reasons.
09:32:48 Because we are a nonpartisan office, I don't know if we are
09:32:52 going to have that particular issue.
09:32:54 I just think that creating this is going to be very
09:32:56 difficult to control in terms of who is the boss on this?
09:33:01 We are going to hire -- we'll have people apply.
09:33:04 They'll come to us publicly before council.
09:33:09 We'll hire someone.
09:33:10 Then if I want analysis of the entire solid waste
09:33:13 department, does that take precedence over Ms. Montelione's
09:33:18 decision to have, you know, the building department
09:33:21 You know, I think that we'll create a little bit more of a
09:33:26 problem in terms of what our priorities are, as individual
09:33:34 council, and I think it may cause a little bit more issue
09:33:36 with the running of council's side.
09:33:43 Secondly, in terms of the amount of money, I'm not sure what
09:33:45 a budget analyst would make, whether it's 50, 60, 70,
09:33:50 I have no idea.
09:33:51 We pay part time council attorney, and there is a certain
09:33:59 amount of money that goes for that, not only the salary but
09:34:02 other parts of what we do.
09:34:04 We have a budget of about $1.2 million on council.
09:34:08 I for one don't foresee adding other than that particular
09:34:12 budget for this position.
09:34:14 For the reasons stated.
09:34:17 I don't have any specific philosophical reason behind it
09:34:22 other than I think in terms of what we are able to do for
09:34:26 ourselves and our constituents, and of course we all
09:34:29 represent the same constituents on city-wide.
09:34:33 Our district colleagues still have to represent those
09:34:36 members, even though they are in district seats, those
09:34:40 So I don't think this is something that we need to go
09:34:44 We are going to have some tough decisions to come forward in
09:34:47 the next budget cycle.
09:34:49 I'm not sure that this is the thing we need to add to our
09:34:55 current budget at this time.
09:34:57 Thank you, chair.
09:34:57 >> Thank you, Mr. Reddick.
09:34:59 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
09:35:06 Did we have anyone from the citizens advisory committee to
09:35:08 show up here today?
09:35:20 Did they have a position on this?
09:35:21 >> Tony Desisto.
09:35:29 We didn't come to a position as a committee.
09:35:33 I am not stating an opinion on the board but just a personal
09:35:35 opinion on the board as well.
09:35:44 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
09:35:45 I felt one time this could have been a good gesture.
09:35:50 But when I look back, and have respect for the citizens
09:35:53 advisory committee, they have worked very, very hard in
09:35:57 meeting with all the department heads, and the budget
09:35:59 office, and to make recommendations to us.
09:36:03 And one of the problems that I see with a budget analyst is
09:36:08 one of the problems I foresee with the citizens advisory
09:36:11 committee, when they come to make all these recommendations
09:36:14 to this council, and when I look at those recommendations
09:36:19 are forwarded to the administration, I think in the past two
09:36:23 years, there has been only one recommendation that the
09:36:27 administration accepted.
09:36:30 I believe just one.
09:36:32 And that bothered me.
09:36:37 I'm aware of one.
09:36:39 If there's more, I apologize, but I know of one that I am
09:36:43 familiar with.
09:36:44 I don't think even with a budget analyst that even as a
09:36:49 budget analyst made recommendations.
09:36:52 The only thing I personally do is analyze and make
09:36:54 recommendation to the council.
09:36:56 They have no authority to make any recommendation to the
09:37:00 Only thing they can do is make it to us, and we can suggest
09:37:04 that administration accept these recommendations.
09:37:07 We are going to have the same similar problem as we have
09:37:12 with the citizens advisory committee.
09:37:17 We are looking -- the administration currently we are facing
09:37:21 anywhere from 15 to $20 million deficit, and we want to add
09:37:25 a new position, write believe the money that we can allocate
09:37:30 for this can go in code enforcement department or recreation
09:37:36 They need the new position, not this council.
09:37:40 And, three, working out whether it's going to be a part-time
09:37:45 position, where the office be held, what benefits given this
09:37:51 person which can increase the salary and costs.
09:37:54 I just don't think at this time it is necessary.
09:38:00 And I truly believe my support stand was the citizens
09:38:04 advisory committee.
09:38:05 I agree with the colleague who spoke that they have done a
09:38:08 wonderful job of presenting information to us.
09:38:12 And the last comment I will make, I would hate to see having
09:38:15 a budget analyst and having to try to establish a meeting
09:38:20 with the administration budget office or the chief financial
09:38:24 officer, and they have a scheduling conflict where they
09:38:30 might put this analyst toward the administration.
09:38:35 There can be many, many problems that might occur that I
09:38:38 don't think we need to concentrates on those issues.
09:38:42 And so at this time I don't think it's the appropriate time
09:38:46 to do it.
09:38:48 Maybe when you have additional revenue, and we reduce our
09:38:54 But I feel comfortable at this moment speaking with the
09:38:59 chief financial officer as well as the budget office anytime
09:39:01 I have questions pertaining to the budget.
09:39:04 So at this time I will not be in support of it.
09:39:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
09:39:08 Anyone who has not spoken?
09:39:09 Mr. Cohen?
09:39:10 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
09:39:22 I think that right now, going into this next budget year, we
09:39:25 are again in a situation where we are facing austerity, and
09:39:30 we have been looking at austerity, we have been looking at
09:39:32 cutting the entire time that we have been here together at
09:39:37 this council.
09:39:39 And it seems to me that with one more year of borrowing from
09:39:42 reserves, hopefully the last year, possibly ahead of us,
09:39:48 that this is not the right time for this.
09:39:55 I think the time that I would be interested in looking at
09:39:58 this position is when we find ourselves in a situation where
09:40:03 the budget is growing again and there is a lot of money to
09:40:08 spend, and the spending needs to be perhaps more closely
09:40:13 At this point, these budgets have been cut and cut and cut
09:40:17 for years.
09:40:19 And if we are going to borrow money to augment the lack of
09:40:22 services that those cuts have necessitated, I would agree
09:40:27 with Mr. Reddick at this point, every drop of the money I
09:40:30 think should go to code enforcement, to parks and rec and to
09:40:34 actual city services.
09:40:36 If we can keep the pool open for an extra weekend day, to me
09:40:39 that would be the place that I would want to be looking to
09:40:42 spend money.
09:40:44 But it's money that we are essentially borrowing.
09:40:47 So that's my position on it.
09:40:49 I did want to say that my representative from the committee
09:40:52 did come to talk to me about it, and I think that they have
09:40:55 done an excellent job.
09:40:58 Actually, the major recommendation that they made to us last
09:41:02 year, while we didn't end up adopting it, we took it very
09:41:06 seriously and had a lot of discussion about whether or not
09:41:09 to annualize and bill for and attach to the tax rolls some
09:41:16 of our utilities.
09:41:17 And we didn't ultimately decide to do it, but it wasn't
09:41:23 after a very robust discussion and analysis of whether or
09:41:26 not it was a good idea.
09:41:27 That's all.
09:41:28 Thank you.
09:41:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Any other whose have not spoken.
09:41:30 Ms. Montelione.
09:41:31 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
09:41:32 I am not going to reiterate what my colleagues have already
09:41:36 I see the argument on both sides for a budget analyst.
09:41:42 And I spoke to my representative to the CAC and the budget
09:41:47 advisory committee, and, you know, some of them as pointed
09:41:54 out, some felt that it was important that we have an
09:41:57 analyst, and some did not.
09:42:00 The reasons that I was presented with for having a budget
09:42:05 analyst to me seemed to be the same functions that the audit
09:42:13 department already undertakes.
09:42:15 So if there are discrepancies or there are efficiencies or
09:42:23 if there are parts of a department, Mr. Suarez mentioned,
09:42:30 you know, solid waste, takes in a lot of contracts we review
09:42:40 every week.
09:42:41 And if we have an issue, or if we have something that we are
09:42:44 concerned about, there's nothing stopping us from asking the
09:42:48 audit department to take a look.
09:42:51 And I have found personally when Mr. Stroud was here that a
09:42:56 couple of the recommendations that I made to him that I
09:43:00 thought there may be a department or an element of the
09:43:05 department that would be in need of closer scrutiny, when he
09:43:12 was here, he took it very seriously and I did see audits
09:43:17 come forward that I had discussed with him.
09:43:19 Whether or not they were already scheduled or something that
09:43:20 the administration also felt was important, I'm sure, you
09:43:24 know, looking at our city services, you know, if more than
09:43:29 one person is saying something, then, you know, it gets
09:43:34 higher up the priority list.
09:43:38 You know, I share the concerns about the expense.
09:43:42 If we were to go forward with this, I would agree with Mr.
09:43:47 Reddick and Mr. Cohen that this year is maybe not the right
09:43:49 time to do this, with us having to go into reserves to cover
09:43:56 our city services, just as a matter of course.
09:44:01 I would also think that the process of interviewing, hiring
09:44:07 and going through the vetting of a budget analyst is a
09:44:11 little bit late in the game for us to do that now with the
09:44:14 budget already upon us and going to be presented.
09:44:22 And I would also look at, you know, a contract position, or
09:44:27 a part-time position, not a full-time position, because the
09:44:32 analyst is going to -- the way I see it, review the budget
09:44:37 as presented and make recommendations, not investigate
09:44:44 departments throughout the year because again that's what we
09:44:47 have audits for.
09:44:48 So cooperation is key.
09:44:49 And if we can -- now that we brought this up once again,
09:44:54 after all these years, as Ms. Mulhern pointed out, if we
09:44:57 could work with the administration and see if there is
09:45:00 something that we can come to a compromise position on, then
09:45:05 I think having the buy-in of the administration is going to
09:45:09 be key to having a successful budget analyst, because we can
09:45:15 decide to hire one, but if you don't have the cooperation of
09:45:18 the administration, it's all going to be for naught.
09:45:25 It's going to be an adversarial type of situation.
09:45:29 And I don't think that is necessary.
09:45:33 So I would rather look at this when we do have surplus in
09:45:37 the budget to cover a position.
09:45:39 And we do have cooperation and buy-in from the
09:45:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
09:45:44 Round two.
09:45:46 Final round.
09:45:47 Who wants to speak first?
09:45:52 Ms. Mulhern?
09:45:55 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilwoman Capin, downtown want to speak
09:45:57 until the very last?
09:46:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, I am going to be last.
09:46:02 >>YVONNE CAPIN: No.
09:46:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, I'm the chairman and I am going to
09:46:04 speak last.
09:46:05 I haven't said a word.
09:46:06 Mrs. Mulhern.
09:46:09 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Unbelievable.
09:46:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It is unbelievable.
09:46:12 >>YVONNE CAPIN: You are.
09:46:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mrs. Mulhern.
09:46:13 >>MARY MULHERN: The Tampa City Council, our job is to be a
09:46:20 check and a balance on the administration.
09:46:22 We are it.
09:46:23 This council is it.
09:46:26 The only body, the only -- I don't think I have heard of
09:46:31 another municipality that has a stronger mayor than we do.
09:46:36 Even St. Pete has a strong mayor but not this strong, and,
09:46:41 you know, I wish that this council would think of ourselves
09:46:48 as a working group and a working body that could accomplish
09:46:51 things as the check, as the representative of the public who
09:47:01 don't have the direct access to the mayor that they do have
09:47:08 each one of us.
09:47:09 Our constituents, we are their council people.
09:47:11 They can come to us with anything they want and talk to us
09:47:14 directly every day.
09:47:18 It's our job.
09:47:20 This is a huge job to look at these budget things.
09:47:25 When I first -- was first on council the first couple years,
09:47:28 and I was a finance chair, which is another point I would
09:47:31 like to make to this council.
09:47:33 The experience and the work that I have put in for four
09:47:39 years was completely ignored.
09:47:44 When I got reelected the only person in the city that didn't
09:47:46 have a runoff, including the mayor -- and I was taken off
09:47:51 the Finance Committee, off the MPO committee.
09:47:54 All of the committees that I had worked on, because the
09:47:56 administration and this council didn't see any benefit to
09:48:01 that institutional experience or knowledge.
09:48:05 So today you better listen to me for my four years of being
09:48:09 the finance chair, where Mayor Iorio told me, you are the
09:48:13 only person in my experience who has ever come to the budget
09:48:17 meeting with me who went through the budget line by line.
09:48:21 I'm sure these not true, now that we have Councilwoman
09:48:24 Montelione on council.
09:48:27 And I worked very hard at that, and I didn't -- I talked to
09:48:32 other city and county administrators about how their budget
09:48:36 worked and what kind of scrutiny they had.
09:48:38 This was not just some vague idea.
09:48:41 It's easier for us not to have a budget analyst.
09:48:45 It's much easier.
09:48:46 But it also makes it possible for us not to do work that I
09:48:52 feel is our responsibility, to really look at these
09:48:58 expenditures, and the auditor is not going to be looking at
09:49:00 the agenda every single week and digging down into RFPs
09:49:04 and noon-bid contracts and renewals of contracts.
09:49:09 We -- somebody who is a professional to do this.
09:49:13 We don't have a CPA.
09:49:15 We don't have a finance person on this council.
09:49:17 I have an art degree.
09:49:19 And I probably spent the most time really digging into this
09:49:24 for over four years.
09:49:26 So I just feel we do not work for the mayor, and the
09:49:32 administration staff does not work to us -- for us.
09:49:36 They have no responsibility to us, as we find every day.
09:49:41 They do not have to answer to us.
09:49:44 They do not have to -- especially they can give us
09:49:49 information if they care to, but they do not take any
09:49:54 direction from us.
09:49:55 And I feel like it's an abdication of our responsibility not
09:50:00 to do this.
09:50:01 And I feel this is going to be so costly, yes, we could hire
09:50:05 a part-time contractor, CPA or someone to do this, and they
09:50:10 would find the wasteful money in that budget every year to
09:50:14 pay for their salaries immediately.
09:50:17 I mean, I'll find it before our next meeting and I'll just
09:50:23 bring it up in new business because it sound like we are not
09:50:26 even going to have any more research or discussion about.
09:50:28 This but this is one thing.
09:50:31 The budget analyst -- here is what the budget analyst brings
09:50:34 that we don't have.
09:50:35 They bring expertise.
09:50:39 They bring research.
09:50:40 And they bring analysis.
09:50:43 Those are three things that none of us personally have, and
09:50:47 that we have volunteer committee doing for us out of just
09:50:51 the generosity and their commitment to community service.
09:50:56 They are doing this.
09:50:57 But they all have jobs.
09:51:01 It's not their professional responsibility to decide what
09:51:04 the city budget is.
09:51:06 They are advisors to us.
09:51:08 And for them to have a budget analyst would make their work
09:51:12 a lot more valuable.
09:51:14 They would have someone who could help them do, you know,
09:51:17 figure out what recommendations they should go forward with.
09:51:20 And I would like Mr. Desisto to tell us -- and I know that
09:51:27 Marc Anderson, who is my adviser, who was the chair for four
09:51:30 years and continues to be on that committee, after the
09:51:35 election in 2007, has been out of the country and didn't
09:51:38 even know about this.
09:51:40 So have you actually had a meeting to discuss it, Mr.
09:51:47 Maybe at the very least we could let our committee have a
09:51:50 discussion about it and come back?
09:51:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I need your name for the record.
09:51:56 >> Tony Desisto.
09:51:59 We had a discussion about it and went to individual members
09:52:01 but we have not been able to meet, and that's why we haven't
09:52:05 had any sort of --
09:52:07 >>MARY MULHERN: But did you have a meeting where you
09:52:08 discussed it?
09:52:09 >> Just that this was coming up and we should talk to our
09:52:11 members, and we have not done that yet.
09:52:14 >>MARY MULHERN: When is your next meeting scheduled?
09:52:18 >> It may be tomorrow or it might be next Friday.
09:52:21 I'm not sure.
09:52:22 I know Lorraine will know.
09:52:25 >>MARY MULHERN: At least you could have a little time to
09:52:26 discuss this, see if you have some consensus.
09:52:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Suarez?
09:52:34 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Ms. Mulhern, I have to say that I know you
09:52:41 didn't mean to say what you said a moment ago in terms of --
09:52:45 well, you are asserting that the members of this board do
09:52:49 not take time to go into the budget and make decisions based
09:52:53 on it.
09:52:54 And I find that --
09:52:56 >>MARY MULHERN: I did not.
09:52:57 >>MIKE SUAREZ: That's why I --
09:53:01 [Sounding gavel]
09:53:02 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Let me finish.
09:53:04 Because I don't think your assessment that we are not doing
09:53:06 our jobs in going through the budget --
09:53:08 >>MARY MULHERN: It is not --
09:53:10 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Wait a second.
09:53:11 Let me finish, okay?
09:53:12 You made your statement.
09:53:13 It was pretty clear to all of us here who understand English
09:53:17 what you said.
09:53:18 Now, I don't think that you meant that.
09:53:20 I don't think that you meant that you are saying the other
09:53:23 council members are not going through the budget and doing
09:53:25 our job.
09:53:26 >>MARY MULHERN: I didn't say --
09:53:28 >>MIKE SUAREZ: You are not saying that we do not know this
09:53:30 Because I'll tell you what, Mrs. Mulhern, I do read through
09:53:33 the budget.
09:53:33 I listen to my appointees, and the advisory committee.
09:53:38 I do take this very seriously.
09:53:42 This is a job that I was elected to by the people of Tampa,
09:53:44 and I do take it very seriously.
09:53:47 And I know that your assessment and your disagreement in
09:53:50 terms of where we are at on this issue is not a personal
09:53:54 attack on any of us.
09:53:56 I'm sure of that.
09:53:56 I think that your words are stronger than what your feelings
09:54:00 are about our positions on this particular issue.
09:54:05 For me, I have done a lot of digging into the budget.
09:54:10 We do have a lot of things that we need to talk about.
09:54:13 We are going to have a budget hole this year.
09:54:17 We are going to have to determine how to get through that.
09:54:19 Having a budget analyst is not going to get to that decision
09:54:22 which we are elected to determine in order to send it to the
09:54:26 If this is about the mayor's direction and what he wants to
09:54:30 do in terms of what we pay for, that's a week to week issue.
09:54:36 Anything that you have to say about a particular item that's
09:54:40 on the agenda, you can pull and drop.
09:54:46 Anything that's part of the budget that you think we are not
09:54:48 spending enough or spending too much, you can discuss.
09:54:51 I think that your assessment -- and I think that your words
09:54:56 bee lie what your real feelings are about the way you feel
09:54:59 about us, because I think that you understand and I think
09:55:02 you know that we do go through the budget, each and every
09:55:05 one of us.
09:55:05 I think you know, and I think you understand that we do work
09:55:08 hard at our jobs, and I think you know and you understand
09:55:12 that we do not take any kind of personal assessment of other
09:55:18 people because we disagree with them.
09:55:20 I'm sure that's not what you meant.
09:55:22 And I'm sure --
09:55:23 >>MARY MULHERN: I didn't say any of that.
09:55:25 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I'm just saying that your words were ill
09:55:28 timed and not well placed.
09:55:30 So I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows that we do
09:55:33 go through this budget, each and every one of my colleagues.
09:55:36 I think that each and every one of us are always looking at
09:55:40 ways that we can make the city more efficient, more
09:55:44 effective with the dollars that we currently have.
09:55:46 Whether or not the agenda item and things, the direction
09:55:50 that we want to go is the same as the mayors.
09:55:53 We are not a rubber stamp.
09:55:54 I know you might think so but we are not.
09:55:57 We have to discuss these things.
09:55:58 Sometimes things happen behind the scenes that we remove
09:56:00 from the agenda that we never even vote on because of
09:56:03 opposition from our members.
09:56:06 And again, it's one of those things that I think that you
09:56:09 misspoke in terms of what you said about us personally.
09:56:14 I know what you are trying to say in that it is our job.
09:56:18 We know our job, okay.
09:56:19 I have been doing this for two years.
09:56:21 You have been doing it now for six.
09:56:23 Mr. Miranda has been doing it for several years.
09:56:24 I think we all know that.
09:56:26 So I just wanted to make sure that we were on the right page
09:56:29 in terms of what your personal feelings were about our work
09:56:33 >>MARY MULHERN: And I --
09:56:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am going to end this thing.
09:56:37 This is about a discussion on one item, budget analyst, and
09:56:43 the staff.
09:56:44 And I am not going to let this carry on any further.
09:56:46 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
09:56:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mrs. Montelione.
09:56:48 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
09:56:50 I appreciate your recognition, Ms. Mulhern, and I don't do
09:56:54 want to say I am glad Mr. Suarez said what he said, because
09:56:58 I do take some of those comments personally.
09:57:02 We have a finance chair who is an attorney, who the over at
09:57:09 the clerk's office in his other life spends many, many hours
09:57:13 leading a department over details of finance, and, you know,
09:57:18 I have every confidence in our current finance chair.
09:57:22 I myself have 13 years of banking experience.
09:57:26 I do go through that budget every single line item, not only
09:57:30 the budget of the administration presented, every year to
09:57:34 us, but also the CDBG, the one-year action plan, the
09:57:39 five-year placques action plan, and where that money is
09:57:42 being spent.
09:57:42 And, you know, I think I was the only member that Mr.
09:57:47 Snelling delivered a five-inch-thick binder that had every
09:57:52 expenditure for the CDBG funds, too, because he knew I would
09:57:57 be asking for it.
09:57:57 So while rather than waiting for me to ask for it, he
09:58:01 delivered to the my office, and those in the administration,
09:58:06 particularly contract admin, knows I am going to be looking
09:58:10 at those contracts every single time they are presented.
09:58:13 And I had asked for the budget items, contract items over $1
09:58:18 million to be presented to us on a regular basis.
09:58:23 And we sat here when there were five or six or seven of them
09:58:26 on the agenda, and I have seen council members roll their
09:58:29 eyes because they don't want to sit through having to hear
09:58:32 about those particular items.
09:58:35 I said then, and I'll reiterate it now, because it was
09:58:38 almost two years ago when I brought that forward, was our
09:58:42 job in passing a budget is not once or twice a year when
09:58:51 those budget items come to us.
09:58:53 It's every single week.
09:58:55 And I read, and I question those contract items.
09:58:59 I don't know if anybody noticed how many single source items
09:59:02 usually come before us?
09:59:04 When we first started, we would see five or six or seven or
09:59:07 eight on the agenda every week.
09:59:09 Now we see one or two a month?
09:59:13 Not even?
09:59:13 Why is that?
09:59:14 Because the purchasing knows that I am going to question
09:59:17 every single source contract that they put forward to us.
09:59:22 So our job in monitoring that budget is not just having, you
09:59:27 know, an analyst or a Finance Committee, advisory committee.
09:59:32 It is every single week.
09:59:35 And changes do happen in the administration.
09:59:39 And I am not going to claim sole responsibility because I
09:59:42 know other members question contracts as well.
09:59:48 I leave the expertise of my colleagues background.
09:59:51 Mr. Suarez has a background in the insurance industry, and
09:59:54 bonds and financing that I don't have.
09:59:56 So I know that he's going to be, you know, looking at those
09:59:59 with a sharp eye.
10:00:01 But, you know, I say that we have a responsibility every
10:00:07 single week, and you can effectuate change by speaking with
10:00:13 those departments and developing a rapport with those
10:00:18 departments so they understand what it is that you are
10:00:21 looking for.
10:00:23 And I have heard it said by our former chief of staff who
10:00:26 said, in staff meetings, you know that somebody is going to
10:00:29 be questioning that, so you better make sure that when you
10:00:32 bring that forward, it's going to pass muster.
10:00:35 So there are many ways to reach a goal of monitoring that
10:00:40 budget, not just through one, you know, either paid or
10:00:44 contract position.
10:00:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Anyone?
10:00:48 Mr. Cohen?
10:00:49 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10:00:51 I don't think that anyone meant -- at least I hope that no
10:00:56 one meant for this discussion to be a referendum on strength
10:00:59 of different individuals, qualifications to be finance
10:01:04 However, I would point out that part of the role of the
10:01:07 finance chair is to meet regularly with the city attorney's
10:01:11 office, to talk about settlements that are in the pipeline
10:01:16 and also to meet with the city's external auditors during
10:01:21 both their entrance conference, their exit meeting, as well
10:01:25 as at various points in between.
10:01:29 Also, of course, the probably more regular interaction with
10:01:33 the budget and finance staff of the city.
10:01:36 And quite frankly, there is a disadvantage in that I can't
10:01:41 receive a report from any of those entities and walk down
10:01:44 the hall and give my colleagues a briefing about it.
10:01:48 And that is the reality of the situation that we live in.
10:01:53 But I trust that everyone is interacting with the budget and
10:01:58 finance staff on an as-needed basis and it's my experience
10:02:03 as well as I believe the advisory committee experience that
10:02:05 they make themselves available on an as-needed and regular
10:02:12 I just wanted to make one point in addition to what my
10:02:15 colleagues have said.
10:02:16 I don't want to repeat it.
10:02:17 It's been a very spirited discussion.
10:02:19 But it's the high responsibility we have regarding the
10:02:25 expenditures that the city makes.
10:02:27 And Councilwoman Capin hasn't said anything yet, but this is
10:02:33 always an important discussion to have.
10:02:34 And it's always a worthwhile discussion to have.
10:02:38 I just want to say, though, that I think this board has made
10:02:44 some very tough decisions regarding spending, regarding how
10:02:47 we dealt with some of our enterprise funds.
10:02:49 We have faced very, very difficult, sometimes not popular
10:02:53 decisions, and for the most part we have made them, I think,
10:02:58 very intelligently after a lot of deliberation, and I know
10:03:02 myself that if I had it to do over again I would vote the
10:03:05 same way as I did in the past on the major budget issues
10:03:08 that have come before us.
10:03:10 So, you know, I again don't feel that the timing is
10:03:17 necessarily right for this item, but I do hope that we can
10:03:20 bring the conversation back away from getting testy while W
10:03:27 one another while we discuss it.
10:03:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick?
10:03:31 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10:03:33 And I am going to be very brief because I am satisfied with
10:03:35 some of the comments that were made.
10:03:36 But let me say this.
10:03:39 This year, each member of this council receives advisements
10:03:47 and the draft budget, and it is our responsibility to take
10:03:49 that draft budget and go through and review it.
10:03:53 Now, you don't have to have a Ph.D. to understand numbers.
10:03:57 And I don't think all the comments that I have heard, I
10:04:03 don't think one person sat up here and said they put
10:04:07 together a budget together every year.
10:04:09 I have to put a budget together.
10:04:11 I have to go through an audit.
10:04:13 And if you never had an audit or internal audit, I have to
10:04:19 go through it.
10:04:21 And I have to put this budget together every year.
10:04:26 And so and that's the reason why the appointee that I got is
10:04:34 a professor who serves on this committee, and I have sat and
10:04:39 discussed, had many, many discussions with him about this
10:04:43 particular item.
10:04:45 I knew it was coming up.
10:04:47 So I just want to say, we shouldn't question anyone's stance
10:05:02 because I think we are all unique in our own way, and if no
10:05:05 one has put a budget together and make sure you have those
10:05:08 dollars to meet at the end of that budget, and that you can
10:05:14 manage that budget and understand what those dollars mean
10:05:16 and where those dollars are coming from.
10:05:18 And I have done that, and done that very seriously with
10:05:23 since I have been on this council.
10:05:24 And the last thing I would say, Mr. Chair, I don't know who
10:05:28 else was in the runoff, but I didn't have a runoff.
10:05:33 I didn't have one.
10:05:34 And I had four or five opponents.
10:05:37 So I'm happy for that.
10:05:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Reddick.
10:05:42 Ms. Capin wanted to go last so I will go to Mrs. Mulhern and
10:05:45 Mrs. Capin.
10:05:46 >>MARY MULHERN: And I'm sorry I had to ask again but I
10:05:51 think it's a good thing since I seem to have not chosen my
10:05:54 words wisely, but I want to point out that I brought up the
10:05:57 fact that I have a degree in art.
10:05:59 So I might be the least qualified person to be the finance
10:06:03 My point I was trying to make, which I clearly didn't make
10:06:06 very well, was that I had been doing that for four years.
10:06:10 So I would like the respect of council to know that I did a
10:06:17 lot of research on this, and it isn't just, you know -- this
10:06:20 is not coming out of -- I thought about it.
10:06:23 I talked to a few people.
10:06:24 This is a lot of time I spent on it, and also the experience
10:06:28 of serving with the previous council and this council.
10:06:32 So I was not making -- and I was not suggesting that anyone
10:06:36 is not doing really hard work looking at the budget.
10:06:39 What I was saying is it is huge, and it's not possible for
10:06:43 each one of us to be able to do that.
10:06:46 And I didn't finish what I started to say when I said I used
10:06:49 to go through line by line.
10:06:51 I couldn't do that after awhile, because I don't know, you
10:06:54 know, Councilwoman Montelione and you may never seep, but I
10:06:59 cannot keep up with every item on every week's agenda.
10:07:03 So my frustration, I'm sorry, it came out sounding like I
10:07:08 was attacking you.
10:07:10 What I was asking for was just -- I feel like -- I would
10:07:17 like a little bit of extra consideration for the experience
10:07:20 and the work that I have put in on this and ask you to maybe
10:07:25 reconsider for a little bit, because it's nothing to do with
10:07:28 any individual here not working really hard and spending
10:07:32 every minute they can looking at the budget.
10:07:35 It's that the budget is so huge that -- and we have one
10:07:40 staff person that we all know can barely keep our calendars
10:07:44 We don't have the reasonable support that we need to do this
10:07:52 That's what I was trying to say.
10:07:53 So I apologize.
10:07:55 And, you know, I don't think I'm any more qualified than
10:07:59 anybody to do any committee.
10:08:02 I just want you to recognize that I have been here a little
10:08:05 bit longer, and I have been through some councils, and I am
10:08:09 going to point out one thing I can remember -- and there
10:08:12 probably are other times -- but if this current council,
10:08:18 there was one budget issue that we forced some change on,
10:08:23 and Councilman Reddick, I think it was at your direction
10:08:27 over the pool a couple of years ago.
10:08:29 So I think that shows you that we don't have the time, or we
10:08:41 are not working together enough to make any challenges.
10:08:44 Because I do feel that we owe it to our constituents to have
10:08:48 more input in the budget than we have, and if we did, there
10:08:53 would be more than one time in two years where every single
10:08:59 item on the annual budget got approved.
10:09:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:09:05 Mrs. Capin.
10:09:06 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I am going to make a motion, when I make my
10:09:09 motion I will explain it.
10:09:13 What I am going to say now is that according -- you know,
10:09:18 the city charter, it is in the city charter, the two hires.
10:09:26 There's a reason that it's there.
10:09:30 And the reason is, you know, we talk about the volunteers to
10:09:40 the citizens advisory committee.
10:09:42 They are competent.
10:09:42 They are dedicated.
10:09:44 They are civic minded and very commendable.
10:09:47 But, you know, it was April the 25th when the motion was
10:09:51 made -- let me read it here -- to ask the citizens advisory
10:10:02 committee to consider attending -- well, they considered and
10:10:09 decided not to show up.
10:10:10 That's what volunteers have the power to do.
10:10:13 We are putting a lot of weight on volunteers.
10:10:17 They are not here.
10:10:19 They don't have to be here.
10:10:20 They could all be gone tomorrow, the same way they are not
10:10:25 here today.
10:10:27 They have been meeting for months and months and they have
10:10:31 nothing to tell us today.
10:10:35 A month ago, we asked to consider.
10:10:40 They considered and are not here.
10:10:41 That's what volunteers do.
10:10:42 And everyone here is putting a lot of weight on volunteers.
10:10:49 A budget analyst could be a contract CPA.
10:10:54 It could help them drill into issues that they have, and
10:10:56 they do not have time to do.
10:11:00 I had one come before me for my appointee, and it was the
10:11:05 way vacation and sick leave is listed as a line item on each
10:11:11 department as a liability, and he couldn't drill -- he
10:11:15 couldn't drill down far enough.
10:11:17 He's a volunteer.
10:11:19 They have other jobs.
10:11:23 Now, this is our responsibility.
10:11:27 This is our duty to do this.
10:11:32 And the fact that we are bringing up the amount of money, we
10:11:39 are being penny wise and pound foolish.
10:11:43 We are looking -- we are considering, oh, that money would
10:11:46 be better for the pool, would be better for code
10:11:50 I have yet to see -- I mean, that's come up -- this is going
10:11:54 to be the fourth budget that I vote on.
10:11:57 I have yet to see a change that comes from this council.
10:12:01 And it was indicated that it's done behind the scenes.
10:12:09 And the fact that you say that it's a strong mayor, it is a
10:12:15 weak council, because we choose to be weak.
10:12:28 Again, we can't make the volunteers, we can't command
10:12:34 anything from them.
10:12:35 They are volunteers.
10:12:36 They are not employed by us.
10:12:37 That makes us powerless.
10:12:43 It makes us paper tigers.
10:12:44 Paper tigers.
10:12:48 Today, everyone says they go line item by line item.
10:12:59 Here is the thing.
10:13:01 I have the highest regard and respect for Ms. Little, our
10:13:09 Her staff -- the issue is not that they don't answer
10:13:15 They answer every question.
10:13:18 You have.
10:13:20 The key is knowing what question to ask, to elicit a good
10:13:36 I'm just going to go ahead and finish up.
10:13:38 You know, we can't afford a new hire.
10:13:42 This is not a new hire.
10:13:44 This is someone that hasn't been replaced in years and years
10:13:47 and years and years.
10:13:51 We have new hires.
10:13:54 We have -- let's look at what we have here on my printed
10:14:01 material here.
10:14:03 Oh, here it is.
10:14:10 We hired a manager, community partner, neighborhood
10:14:13 engagement, digital content, assistant.
10:14:19 Now, are those hires more important than someone at code
10:14:27 We don't know, but a budget analyst could help us answer
10:14:34 We pay consultants constantly.
10:14:38 It comes through.
10:14:41 We are paying consultants.
10:14:45 We are a -- approving consultants.
10:14:49 And this isn't difficult.
10:14:55 It requires verification of information -- and anyone who
10:15:10 says they totally understand this budget, I can build a
10:15:13 rocket, too.
10:15:14 I look at this, and the other thing was, let me see, oh,
10:15:20 that it was a colossal waste of taxpayer dollars.
10:15:25 I want to give you an example.
10:15:28 We had an issue at the water department, and we had an issue
10:15:32 with clean cities.
10:15:34 There were people that were dismissed.
10:15:37 Things were restructured.
10:15:41 But they continue.
10:15:42 Because that service is needed.
10:15:46 Talk about wasting taxpayer dollars.
10:15:51 When they looked into clean cities, things were being done
10:15:57 on properties that the city didn't own.
10:16:00 Inventory was missing.
10:16:02 Those are taxpayer dollars.
10:16:06 Yes, we didn't -- we didn't say, okay, we don't need a clean
10:16:13 cities anymore, and we don't need the meter readers anymore.
10:16:18 Because that's the argument I'm hearing here.
10:16:21 The argument I'm hearing here is that we don't need them
10:16:27 because one of the things was said was that the budget
10:16:31 analyst did nothing, and that I heard from the
10:16:37 And that's my example.
10:16:39 Just because a job is performed badly does not mean that the
10:16:45 job itself is not required to be done.
10:16:52 What it does say is that the City Council hired -- I mean,
10:16:56 competent, someone who was lazy or both, or maybe City
10:17:00 Council just didn't give them the right direction.
10:17:16 Let me see what else here.
10:17:20 It is our duty and our responsibility to oversee the budget.
10:17:26 And I do believe that we take that very seriously here.
10:17:31 It is tools.
10:17:34 This is another tool to help us do our job.
10:17:37 It is in the charter.
10:17:39 And I think it would help the citizens advisory committee.
10:17:46 They have done a very commendable job, but again they are
10:17:49 volunteers, and they are not under our employment.
10:17:58 It could be, as Councilwoman Montelione mentioned, a
10:18:03 contract base with a competent accounting firm.
10:18:15 And I am going to hold the rest of my remarks for when I
10:18:20 make my motion.
10:18:21 Thank you.
10:18:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Ms. Capin.
10:18:23 I guess it's my turn.
10:18:25 Let me just say this from the bottom of my heart.
10:18:29 If I, at any time felt, that there was someone needed, no
10:18:32 matter what department it is or what the title was, no
10:18:41 matter where it was at in the city for the betterment of the
10:18:44 citizens and taxpayers of this great city.
10:18:48 I can only say this.
10:18:49 You have a citizens advisory committee, budget committee who
10:18:52 does a fantastic job.
10:18:54 They don't meet just on budget time anymore.
10:18:56 They are practically year round.
10:19:00 You also have an internal audit department that checks the
10:19:03 department from time to time just like any big business.
10:19:05 You see, government is big business.
10:19:11 Something that was touched on but not actually explained.
10:19:16 You have an external auditor.
10:19:18 What is the role in that company?
10:19:22 Stow make sure that all of us, including us, including the
10:19:25 administration, including every department, has done
10:19:27 everything according to the accounting principles of this
10:19:32 great country that we live in, and things that are done to
10:19:34 the betterment of the taxpayers without waste.
10:19:38 That happens every year.
10:19:40 We have their report.
10:19:43 Let me say the last year we were asked to make a budget cut
10:19:47 in this department, City Council, and the city clerk's
10:19:50 office, like all departments, Shirley Foxx-Knowles and I got
10:19:55 together and we had an opening at City Hall, and the City
10:19:57 Council department, and we combined two jobs into one so
10:20:02 that she could meet her goal as required by the
10:20:05 administration, and we met our goal as required by the
10:20:10 We never got any hoopla, never wanted any, never expressed
10:20:15 any, but that's how government should work.
10:20:17 We consolidated two departments, one job, to make it better
10:20:22 and easier to facilitate not only that person having a job,
10:20:26 but having a responsibility of two people, because that's
10:20:29 what the job called for.
10:20:33 This year, I have been asked to make another cut of about 24
10:20:37 to $26,000.
10:20:40 I don't know where that cut is coming from.
10:20:44 Let me just say that the only thing I have to do on that
10:20:48 job, I can't cut salaries, I can't cut costs, so the only
10:20:53 thing I can cut is the unused travel.
10:20:56 That's not going to sit too well with my colleagues.
10:20:59 But I will be sending you a memo, and I know you passed a
10:21:02 resolution to build up that reserve and possibly it's the
10:21:07 right thing to do.
10:21:08 That's the only place I can cut is the unused travel.
10:21:12 Let me also say that I have lived through two budget staff
10:21:19 persons, or analysts, and from 1998 to 2013, approximately
10:21:30 15 years.
10:21:31 For 15 years, if you look at $90,000, on salaries and
10:21:36 benefits and so forth and so on, it would be 1.2 million,
10:21:43 maybe more, maybe less.
10:21:45 What would you do, and let me tell you something.
10:21:50 The days of big government is over.
10:21:52 The public demand that we do what we do, and we have that
10:21:56 working right now in this city, not only on the
10:21:59 administrative side, but on the legislative side.
10:22:03 I just mentioned two small items.
10:22:05 We must give the taxpayers the best service possible through
10:22:12 a recession, through good times or bad times.
10:22:15 Good times doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to
10:22:18 hire more people.
10:22:20 In my opinion, the general public won't stand for that.
10:22:23 It means that we have to hire the right people.
10:22:27 And I think we have done that by far in this city.
10:22:32 I have worked with many administrations.
10:22:36 I can also tell you that not once have I known of anyone
10:22:39 getting indicted, anyone making some mistakes that I worked
10:22:45 with on the administrative side that has caused any one of
10:22:49 these from the budget committee on -- you can ask your
10:22:52 appointees or in general all of them, the internal auditor
10:22:55 or the external auditor.
10:22:57 Sure, there have been some recommendations that have to be
10:23:01 done because they were not meeting the requirements as
10:23:04 stated by those departments to some degree.
10:23:06 And you know what?
10:23:08 By the time we get that, most of those already in the works,
10:23:13 it is not about us or them, not about them versus us, and
10:23:17 it's not even about us versus each other.
10:23:20 It's about doing the right thing at the right time.
10:23:23 And I can tell you that in my all years experience, the
10:23:28 right thing to do is what I have heard this council, and
10:23:33 that's to discuss something.
10:23:34 You will never hear me say, mention another person's name
10:23:37 that's elected to office, just like I am.
10:23:39 They got elected just like I did.
10:23:42 I can only speak for myself.
10:23:44 I don't speak for anyone else.
10:23:46 But I can tell you that all these things are being discussed
10:23:50 today are of interest to the general public, whether you
10:23:54 vote or not.
10:23:56 And some of you haven't voted in quite awhile.
10:24:00 I can also say that these are the things that create what we
10:24:05 have, democracy.
10:24:07 Whether you agree or disagree with me or any other council
10:24:10 member, that's your right.
10:24:12 And others serve as an elected official.
10:24:15 You must have the outside body like a turtle, because you
10:24:19 will get shot at once in a while verbally, I hope, and you
10:24:24 must have a degree of responsibility way and above the
10:24:29 general public, because your responsibility is 350,000
10:24:33 people, not to yourself.
10:24:37 If I thought for one iota that the expenditures were needed
10:24:41 for this position or any other position, I would certainly
10:24:44 support that.
10:24:45 From what I'm hearing, from the consensus of council, there
10:24:49 is not enough support for this item to go forward.
10:24:55 I don't want to see this entangled into a year-long debate.
10:25:00 I don't want to see this gone through another meeting and
10:25:02 another meeting and another meeting without no resolution.
10:25:06 I don't think that's for the betterment of this city.
10:25:09 It's not about "I."
10:25:15 It's about us.
10:25:16 It's not about what I want to do. It's about what we have
10:25:18 to do to make this city a better place and a greater place
10:25:22 for citizens to live.
10:25:24 You know, it is time that we recognize how ardent we should
10:25:31 be by serving the taxpayers of this great city.
10:25:34 I say that -- and I believe this sincerely -- that all of us
10:25:37 have that responsibility.
10:25:39 Some of us express it a little differently.
10:25:42 But I hope that when I finish speaking we take some type of
10:25:48 action and vote on this item and put it behind us.
10:25:50 I can't go forward looking backwards.
10:25:53 Thank you very much.
10:25:55 Any suggestions, council members, on this item?
10:25:59 Ms. Capin.
10:26:00 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes, I would like to make a motion.
10:26:04 I move that we consider options for hiring a budget analyst.
10:26:12 And may I speak to the reason why?
10:26:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Certainly.
10:26:16 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.
10:26:17 I want to say and reiterate that I agree with many things
10:26:20 that my colleagues have said, absolutely.
10:26:24 And I look at this also as the very best job we can do for
10:26:31 our citizens, the fine citizens of this city that pay their
10:26:34 taxes and want to see them spent as best as they can, and
10:26:39 they have been by and large.
10:26:43 One of the things that brought me here to this point -- and
10:26:45 I have got to say this is not critical of the
10:26:50 It is a reflection on us and us alone.
10:26:58 What I referred to -- and maybe someone has heard me before,
10:27:03 Sophie's choice.
10:27:04 We voted in solid waste, rate hike, and it came to us, and
10:27:13 said act now or face the downgrading of city's bond rating
10:27:20 no less.
10:27:21 And I wondered what else did we miss?
10:27:25 Then we have the settlement of waste management of
10:27:30 $1.2 million.
10:27:31 The search went back for four years.
10:27:34 I wonder how much more we owed had we gone -- we were owed
10:27:39 had we gone further back.
10:27:41 So, yes, it's been years and years that we have not had an
10:27:49 accountant, a professional, and we have dealt -- and these
10:27:56 are just a couple of examples.
10:27:59 I'll go back to the volunteers that give of their time.
10:28:02 They meet once a month for two to three hours which equals
10:28:06 about one seven-day week in the whole year.
10:28:12 Our staff, the budget CFO, is a department that works on
10:28:21 this budget all year long.
10:28:25 If it was so simple as to look at it once a month, then why
10:28:30 are we paying all those people in the budget department?
10:28:34 The other thing is, we here, I feel, it is our duty, and it
10:28:51 is not a waste of taxpayers dollars, and it has nothing to
10:28:56 do with trusting the administration.
10:28:58 I even heard that there might be adversary.
10:29:01 Why would they be adversary when you are doing your job?
10:29:05 You are doing it as the best that you can with the best
10:29:07 tools you can.
10:29:14 Therefore, I want to be on record with a vote.
10:29:20 So I make a motion that we consider -- I am not going to put
10:29:30 the details -- consider contacting an outside either
10:29:35 accounting firm -- and I mentioned this before -- that could
10:29:40 actually help the citizens advisory committee to drill down
10:29:44 into some of the issues that they have and do not have time,
10:29:48 they very fine citizens of our city that have given their
10:29:53 very valuable time to us.
10:29:55 So my motion is to entertain this and its duty to encompass
10:30:03 assisting the CAC as I said before, annual review of the
10:30:06 budget, report to council, and conduct the analysis that we
10:30:16 That is my motion.
10:30:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mrs. Capin.
10:30:19 Do I have a second?
10:30:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Second.
10:30:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second by Mrs. Mulhern.
10:30:22 Let me say this, before he would go any further after this
10:30:25 discussion we are going to go to the public.
10:30:27 I am not going to take a vote until the public is heard.
10:30:30 >>MARY MULHERN: We are going to hear from the public on
10:30:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just said that.
10:30:34 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
10:30:36 Well, that's very good.
10:30:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It's always that way.
10:30:43 Everything the public has three minutes to speak that's on
10:30:46 the agenda at the end of each workshop.
10:30:47 If we have a motion, then I guess that would be another
10:30:50 I have a motion by Mrs. Capin, second by Mrs. Mulhern.
10:30:53 Public comment.
10:30:54 >> Tony Desisto, 463 Lucerne. And I am going to speak not
10:31:00 on behalf of the committee but on my personal behalf, and I
10:31:02 am not going to reiterate a lot of the stuff that many
10:31:05 council members spoke of.
10:31:06 I will just talk about sort of our experience with the CAC
10:31:09 and then something with timing.
10:31:11 From my perspective on the CAC, the budget staff, Dennis
10:31:18 Rogero and have done but for the come and transparent.
10:31:22 All the information we have asked for we have gotten.
10:31:24 And there's never been a time that we sought information
10:31:27 that hasn't been provided, or they haven't come to a meeting
10:31:29 with us and given us the information necessary.
10:31:32 So just from our perspective -- and again I don't know what
10:31:36 council's feelings with the budget committee is or how much
10:31:38 the budget staff is but from our perspective, I think we get
10:31:42 all the information necessary, from a comprehensive
10:31:44 Now maybe we could meet more to provide more ideas, or to
10:31:48 give more suggestions.
10:31:49 But just purely from an understanding of the budget and from
10:31:51 getting all the information we need, that's been provided by
10:31:57 I will also say just quickly, it's been mentioned that on a
10:32:00 timing issue maybe when the budget-is the time to look at
10:32:08 I also mention from my understanding, from our
10:32:10 understanding, that the ERP that's going to be implemented
10:32:12 is really going to provide a lot more detailed information
10:32:16 on the budget.
10:32:17 It's going to get you the budget information quicker and
10:32:20 It going to have much more detail and shall much more
10:32:23 searchable, not just from, you know, the council, not just
10:32:27 the CAC but from the public in general which is a great
10:32:31 thing not just for seven members but the public in general.
10:32:34 So I would say just from my perspective, it might also be a
10:32:38 good thing to wait and see what happens with ERP and what
10:32:42 kind of information is provided to council and what kind of
10:32:45 numbers come out of that.
10:32:47 And that might be a better time to understand what the
10:32:49 actual needs are for a budget analyst.
10:32:51 So, again, that's my point of view, from my experience on
10:32:55 the CAC, we have all the information that we have asked for.
10:33:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
10:33:00 Ms. Capin?
10:33:02 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.
10:33:02 I understand that.
10:33:03 And no one ever said they didn't answer every question and
10:33:08 were transparent.
10:33:09 So your experience is the same as ours.
10:33:12 It's a matter of what question to ask.
10:33:18 And to drill down into.
10:33:20 So that's what I'm wondering.
10:33:23 For instance, had you heard about the vacation sick leave
10:33:31 that's listed in the department, to each department as a
10:33:35 liability, and trying to figure out why it's carried over,
10:33:41 how it's put in there from year to year?
10:33:50 And then why it is not carried at the administrative level
10:33:55 as opposed to the department level?
10:33:59 And again the concern was, or the question was, how is that
10:34:04 extended every year?
10:34:10 And Mr. Stokes, who is the person I appointed who was USF's
10:34:18 credit union retired manager there, I can't do this unless I
10:34:28 know they have a total amount of salary.
10:34:32 I don't know what their hourly wage is.
10:34:35 Therefore, you can't drill down into it.
10:34:42 Had you heard that concern?
10:34:44 >> Yes.
10:34:47 I think it was brought up in one of our meetings.
10:34:49 I don't think we have gotten an answer on that particular
10:34:52 question, if that's your question.
10:34:56 >>YVONNE CAPIN: That's my question.
10:34:57 And, therefore, we are in May, and wouldn't you think that
10:35:06 an analyst or an accounting firm, if this was one of your
10:35:11 questions, or several that you have, have you drilled down
10:35:14 into these more in-depth to know?
10:35:17 There may be something, from the information that you are
10:35:21 getting, the decisions you are making are based on that
10:35:27 information that's coming forth to you from the
10:35:34 >> That's a general sort of question.
10:35:38 The specific question is, I think we asked that question
10:35:41 very recently.
10:35:42 I don't think we got an answer but something I'm sure we'll
10:35:45 address at a future meeting if we do get an answer on it.
10:35:49 Just again from my experience, you know, all purposes are to
10:35:54 look through the budget, ask the question, and from the
10:35:58 comprehension standpoint what the budget looks like, what
10:36:00 the elements are within the budget.
10:36:01 Any questions we have, any materials we have asked for, they
10:36:04 have been provided.
10:36:06 Your question is whether we are asking the right questions
10:36:08 or council is asking if right question.
10:36:10 >> You are another set of eyes for us.
10:36:14 That's the way I see it.
10:36:15 Another set of eyes and ears for us and very commendable.
10:36:18 But at any time anyone volunteers, your time is the most
10:36:22 precious thing you have.
10:36:23 And any minute you spend you will not get back.
10:36:25 So thank you for all your time.
10:36:27 I really appreciate it.
10:36:28 Thank you.
10:36:29 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:36:30 Next, please.
10:36:31 >> I'm Ed, Ed Tillou from Sulphur Springs.
10:36:41 A few weeks ago, I brought up, you know, to establishments
10:36:48 west of center.
10:36:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Excuse me.
10:36:52 Are you going to speak directly to this?
10:36:55 We have been this is about a budget analyst.
10:36:59 >> And this is.
10:37:01 As you speak, the thought that occurs to me is like the
10:37:06 blind men in the elephant.
10:37:10 As I started to say, when I signed subscription to the
10:37:14 principles of the socialist democratic federation, the main
10:37:17 reason I did that was because they emphasized participatory
10:37:22 And this to me is why when you speak, you make very good
10:37:27 You are very articulate.
10:37:28 I think that's very good.
10:37:29 But it is like the blind man in the element.
10:37:32 The key things should be participatory democracy.
10:37:36 Now, a step might be travel.
10:37:38 Travel to Charlottesville, and Jefferson's Spanish library,
10:37:43 because mayor comes from "may or Councilman" and see what
10:37:52 that says about whether you should have a strong mayor or
10:37:54 weak mayor.
10:37:55 But the main thing is the participatory democracy.
10:37:57 And my participation has often been coming to these meetings
10:38:00 about long-run solutions that I can appreciate as an
10:38:05 engineer, because they have a lot of earth science
10:38:10 background, that's like to say atmospheric science and
10:38:14 things like that.
10:38:14 And what goes with it is that some engineers have
10:38:18 contributed a lot, and they created the hybrid and the volt.
10:38:24 >> I am going to ask you to speak on the budget analyst
10:38:27 >> It isn't much to have in budgets to buy vehicles.
10:38:37 You buy several --
10:38:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am going to rule you out of order.
10:38:41 Speak on the budget analyst, not cars.
10:38:43 >> And with respect to this, and with respect to the
10:38:48 participatory democracy, if you have a budget analyst and
10:38:50 the budget analyst is sitting there, and where, I don't
10:38:56 know, maybe in the corner, could be talking to what people
10:38:59 are saying and seeing where this is worked into a budget and
10:39:03 then going back to you as the elected official and say, what
10:39:08 about purchasing hybrid and volts and things like that?
10:39:13 And then when you are asked, you could say, yes, yes, do
10:39:16 that, when you are reminded of it.
10:39:19 I was in an education program at University of South
10:39:23 Florida, and was phased out.
10:39:27 That was probably on a very high level by Betty Castor who
10:39:31 didn't have enough women in the building.
10:39:33 It was men because it was a stem program and it was phased
10:39:37 And the theme of that program was to get the kids to
10:39:41 learn -- you ask some questions.
10:39:43 (Bell sounds)
10:39:44 And that's what the budget analyst would do.
10:39:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
10:39:48 Next, please.
10:39:49 >>HARRY COHEN: Mr. Chair, may I just say that Mr. Tillou
10:39:53 that I visited Monticello last weekend when I was up in
10:39:56 Virginia, Thomas Jefferson's home, but I was not able to
10:39:59 discern his position on a budget analyst.
10:40:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, no, no, this is not a discussion.
10:40:04 It was just a comment by Mr. Cohen.
10:40:06 Yes, sir, next, please.
10:40:07 >> Great to see you again. Carlos Cabral, 11048 Lejurdin
10:40:19 And Mrs. Montelione's district.
10:40:24 My question to you guys about the analyst budget, yes, it's
10:40:30 going to be a lot of money is definitely going to be the
10:40:33 last year that we are going to have to borrow.
10:40:36 My question is, what do we have to do for the city, for us,
10:40:42 the people in the city to work with the City Council on this
10:40:47 What can we do, you know, to help you guys on this budget?
10:40:55 There are some people that do want to help you, the City
10:40:57 Council, because you are the voice of the people.
10:41:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: And stop the time.
10:41:03 We certainly appreciate very much your concern, and you want
10:41:05 to help and we appreciate that.
10:41:07 I'm sure your council member and really all seven of us are
10:41:11 your council members, appreciate what you are trying to do
10:41:13 when the budget is prepared.
10:41:14 It's all live.
10:41:16 You want a copy of it, it's available.
10:41:18 We do have a citizens advisory committee.
10:41:20 We do have that, and you can certainly be in contact with
10:41:23 every council member that's here now.
10:41:26 >> Okay.
10:41:27 Mr. Chairman, something I want to bring up.
10:41:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Is it with the budget analyst?
10:41:35 I'm guessing it's not.
10:41:36 I can tell.
10:41:37 >> It's not.
10:41:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Then we have to wait.
10:41:39 I'm sorry.
10:41:39 >> Okay, no problem.
10:41:42 Where is the --
10:41:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Right after this we have two more
10:41:45 hearings then you can talk to each council member
10:41:47 individually, okay?
10:41:48 >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10:41:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I appreciate your attendance this
10:41:51 Next, please.
10:41:52 >> Pete Johnson, 510 Harrison street.
10:42:01 As far as the budget analyst, it might be advantageous for a
10:42:04 council to have an outside perspective.
10:42:10 Every administration for the last 20, 30 years that I have
10:42:13 been involved with has their point of where they want to
10:42:19 point the city, and can manipulate the figures towards that
10:42:26 My biggest thing is obviously code enforcement.
10:42:30 Maybe a budget analyst could find more money for code
10:42:35 If we enforced our code, which is another story, another
10:42:40 horse of a different color, but that would bring up property
10:42:44 values which would help our budget.
10:42:46 My only question is, every single year, we pass a budget,
10:42:52 and then when I ask why doesn't code work?
10:42:57 I am told, well, the administration got what they wanted;
10:43:01 it's up to the administration to make it work.
10:43:05 Department heads to come here or to meet with you and tell
10:43:08 you what they need is not going to work.
10:43:15 No department head is going to be honest with you right up
10:43:20 front and say, I need another $100 million.
10:43:25 Are you kidding?
10:43:29 The mayor would slice his throat in a heartbeat. What they
10:43:29 are going to tell you is what they have already told the
10:43:34 In any administration.
10:43:36 But somehow if we can come up with funding for code
10:43:41 enforcement, for parks, more so than some of these other
10:43:46 developments things, I think we will do -- a lot more income
10:43:53 in the budget.
10:43:54 But I have always been a code enforcement person.
10:43:57 I always will.
10:43:58 Thank you.
10:44:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:44:00 Mrs. Mulhern.
10:44:01 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. Johnson, it sound like you feel -- do I
10:44:06 hear you saying you support the idea of an outside budget
10:44:10 analyst as Councilwoman Capin was recommending, a
10:44:15 contractor, a CPA that could advise council on the budget?
10:44:18 >> I advise -- I don't know if it's going to do any good,
10:44:23 but I would suggest -- I would suggest try it.
10:44:27 We have got to have a different point of view.
10:44:29 But even if we do, and we tell the mayor, no, we don't
10:44:33 accept your budget, you know, they just change it a little
10:44:38 bit more, and sooner or later you are going to have to
10:44:42 change it.
10:44:42 The point is every single time we accept the budget, nothing
10:44:46 gets concluded.
10:44:52 That's all I have to say.
10:44:53 It might be a good idea to get an outside opinion.
10:44:56 But is the administration going to listen to you?
10:44:58 The only thing you can do is say no, we don't approve the
10:45:03 I think only one person, maybe two people, of last year's
10:45:08 budget voted no on it.
10:45:10 Everybody else said, sure, go ahead.
10:45:19 But very seldom to I hear the council disagree with the
10:45:22 Very, very seldom.
10:45:23 And they say, well, the administration got what they wanted,
10:45:26 then it's up to them to make it work.
10:45:28 And it doesn't work.
10:45:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mrs. Ms. Montelione.
10:45:33 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Mr. Johnson, you may not hear and the
10:45:36 public may not hear on camera or in this format a
10:45:40 disagreement with the budget, but I can tell you, the last
10:45:44 budget that came to me, I had disagreements over a lot of
10:45:46 items in the budget, and, you know, don't necessarily take
10:45:52 the time on council to air those grievances or go over the
10:45:57 nitty gritty with individual staff members, but believe me,
10:46:02 those conversations happen.
10:46:03 And I have had departments tell me we need more money, we
10:46:08 need more staff.
10:46:09 So it's not that they are going to get persecuted by the
10:46:12 mayor for saying those things.
10:46:15 Any reasonable person would know that if we are dipping into
10:46:18 our reserves that our departments need more money.
10:46:24 A lot of times you may not necessarily see or hear these
10:46:27 things happening, but trust me, they are.
10:46:29 >> All I can do is say what I said.
10:46:31 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I understand.
10:46:35 >> And what I can say is I see improvement or no
10:46:39 improvements in different departments and persons that I
10:46:40 deal with.
10:46:41 Thank you.
10:46:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Anyone else care to speak on item number
10:46:45 2? Item number 2.
10:46:48 Please come forward. Don't be shy now.
10:46:53 I see no one.
10:46:54 I go back to the motion that we had the public session on
10:46:58 the workshop comments.
10:47:00 Mrs. Capin had a motion.
10:47:02 Seconded by Mrs. Mulhern.
10:47:03 Mrs. Mulhern.
10:47:04 >>MARY MULHERN: (off microphone)
10:47:17 I don't think it would be unreasonable considering the
10:47:24 importance of this part of our job as council that we at
10:47:27 least investigate it as Councilman asked what it would cost
10:47:35 to hire someone, and to go ahead and just find out what that
10:47:40 would be, and in the meantime, I think the case, I would be
10:47:50 able to make a stronger case when it comes back, why we
10:47:53 might want to do it.
10:47:54 It's possible that we might have a change of heart by some
10:47:59 people, and just asking you to support that we do that.
10:48:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:48:06 I do have a motion on the floor by Mrs. Capin, second by
10:48:09 Mrs. Mulhern.
10:48:10 Further discussion by council members on that original
10:48:13 All in favor of the motion by Mrs. Capin, seconded by Mrs.
10:48:16 Mulhern -- Mrs. Capin.
10:48:19 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.
10:48:20 First of all, I want to thank the council, everyone on
10:48:24 council for a very good, informative, very civilized and
10:48:31 productive discussion before we vote, I would like to just
10:48:36 tell everyone that I appreciate -- and I think it was a
10:48:42 necessary discussion.
10:48:43 So thank you.
10:48:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:48:45 I have a motion by Mrs. Capin. Second by Mrs. Mulhern.
10:48:47 All in favor of the original motion please signify by saying
10:48:50 aye. Opposed nay. Voice vote.
10:48:55 >>MIKE SUAREZ: No.
10:49:04 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.
10:49:05 >>FRANK REDDICK: No.
10:49:07 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
10:49:09 >>HARRY COHEN: No.
10:49:11 >>LISA MONTELIONE: No.
10:49:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No.
10:49:13 >> Motion fails with five voting no, two yes.
10:49:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much for attending.
10:49:23 I appreciate the public's comment.
10:49:27 The budget advisory committee and everyone else who
10:49:30 We go to item number 3.
10:49:31 Workshop regarding zoning administrator's interpretation
10:49:37 decision process.
10:49:39 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Planning and development.
10:49:41 First, I'll say I am really here for any questions that you
10:49:46 I provided a document that just shows the tabulations over
10:49:50 the last couple of years, the number of cases that have been
10:49:54 The motion in reading it, on staff, it was a little
10:50:00 confusing as to what you really wanted from us other than
10:50:03 talking about the process.
10:50:04 I am here to certainly advise you on procedures and the
10:50:09 The second part of the motion which says to discuss the
10:50:12 petitioner's responsibility to make requests for changes to
10:50:15 the petition, that was made last week.
10:50:18 I was actually out of town so I'm not really sure what that
10:50:21 was referencing.
10:50:22 I'm happy to discuss whatever it is that you are looking for
10:50:25 on that one.
10:50:27 Also, on April 1th, looking at your night workshop, the
10:50:33 alcohol workshop, I believe, was originally scheduled for
10:50:35 the day and you moved it to the night last week.
10:50:38 There was a piece added, a number 5, to the alcohol
10:50:42 workshop, which says informal decisions, and mediations.
10:50:48 That was added on April 18th.
10:50:50 However, I don't know that that was really supposed to be
10:50:55 related to the alcohol workshop, because there is no
10:50:59 substantial deviation to alcohol.
10:51:01 So I'm thinking that there was just some miscommunication in
10:51:05 the motion or something.
10:51:06 So I included alternative design and substantial deviation
10:51:12 for this morning's workshop.
10:51:14 We can really discuss it tonight but it's not really related
10:51:16 to alcohol.
10:51:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mrs. Montelione, then Mrs. Mulhern.
10:51:20 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I discussed this with Ms. Coyle and
10:51:24 Rebecca Kert yesterday, and, you know, I said to Ms. Coyle
10:51:31 that I would ask that item 5 be removed from this evening's
10:51:36 agenda and be added to this item that she's going to speak
10:51:39 on here, because it's more appropriate that we discuss that
10:51:43 in an overall session about zoning in general and the
10:51:51 regulations and what we had discussed at our planning, our
10:51:54 strategic planning session rather than have that item be
10:51:57 heard this evening.
10:51:58 So that's a change to the agenda item that I would put
10:52:02 forward at the top of the meeting, but -- agenda review.
10:52:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Unless it's illegal to discuss it we
10:52:11 would bring it up for the night thing just to let the public
10:52:16 have the ability to speak on if they choose to at that time.
10:52:21 Mrs. Mulhern?
10:52:23 >>MARY MULHERN: I believe I was the maker of the motion
10:52:25 adding that substantial deviation.
10:52:28 I'm not sure -- I don't remember because I'm just this now
10:52:33 where I asked for it to be placed.
10:52:35 But wherever it is placed, Chairman Miranda just said, it on
10:52:41 the evening agenda.
10:52:42 So we need to hear about it tonight, also.
10:52:45 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Okay.
10:52:49 >>MARY MULHERN: That's where it is on here.
10:52:51 >> I went back and found the motion on April 18 but the new
10:52:53 system doesn't have the transcript.
10:52:56 I couldn't read the context.
10:52:57 >>MARY MULHERN: That's fine.
10:53:00 It just means we are going to have to talk about it possibly
10:53:04 And just make sure that, you know, anyone who comes here
10:53:07 wanting to hear about it should have you or someone
10:53:11 representing your department.
10:53:14 >> I'll be here for the alcohol workshop.
10:53:17 At this point, there's one additional item on tonight's
10:53:20 agenda which really is more related to the broader special
10:53:25 use process.
10:53:26 I included the document for you.
10:53:29 It's in the multi-page document, the piece these really
10:53:33 important, the highlighted piece, and it's just a procedural
10:53:36 I think it came up because of an alcohol case last week, but
10:53:40 it really is a broader special use process, content.
10:53:45 So we can certainly talk about it again tonight.
10:53:47 But it's actually an easy change in the code, if you so want
10:53:52 to make it.
10:53:52 The rezoning process already has 1 0-day limitation to it
10:53:57 and then council can grant additional continuation to the
10:54:00 case, continuances for the case, for good cause shown, and
10:54:04 then for extenuating circumstances.
10:54:07 So there's already in the rezoning process for that.
10:54:13 You can literally just adopt a reference to that section in
10:54:15 the special use process and it will follow the exact same
10:54:19 procedural path as rezoning so you aren't having two
10:54:25 different items that are processed the same way, treated
10:54:28 That's an easy change if you still want to do it.
10:54:30 You can think about it and we can talk about it again
10:54:32 I wanted to provide that to you because that was an easy
10:54:37 So as far as the zoning administrator process, I'm
10:54:42 certainly -- I can walk through the process with you.
10:54:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Do it very quickly so everyone can listen
10:54:53 to it.
10:54:54 >>CATHERINE COYLE: On April 2010, the process was amended.
10:54:57 We had before April 2010, we had a very open-ended --
10:55:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mrs. Mulhern.
10:55:03 >>MARY MULHERN: Do we have a written report on what you are
10:55:04 talking about now?
10:55:07 >>CATHERINE COYLE: No.
10:55:07 Well, that's the thing with the motion.
10:55:09 It reads -- it says to discuss the zoning administrator
10:55:12 interpretation decision process.
10:55:14 It reads that you are going to discuss it so I am here
10:55:17 really to answer your question.
10:55:18 I couldn't really tell what it is you wanted -- I gave you
10:55:22 the processes that we go through, how many we have processed
10:55:27 since the code was amended.
10:55:29 I can certainly walk you through the criteria.
10:55:31 >>MARY MULHERN: I guess if you could talk really slow, and
10:55:34 then maybe I'll ask you to provide later a written report
10:55:40 about what the changes from -- yeah, the changes from
10:55:51 processes that used to come to council and are now zoning
10:55:58 administrator decisions.
10:56:00 When those changes happened.
10:56:02 That sound like you were starting to say that.
10:56:04 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Well, I was going to explain the
10:56:08 administrator process, but there aren't any that were
10:56:11 changed that used to come to council that now are
10:56:14 The clean-up for the code in April of 2010 was --
10:56:18 >>MARY MULHERN: There haven't been any changes in the last,
10:56:20 say, four years to things that would have --
10:56:26 >> Specifically, just substantial deviation changes, change
10:56:31 That was put on at nighttime.
10:56:33 But that is a zoning administrator determination.
10:56:36 Those criteria have been in place since 1986.
10:56:40 So I don't --
10:56:42 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
10:56:43 So I think, originally, when I asked for this, part of this
10:56:49 was the continuation, because isn't this the case where we
10:56:54 were told, we were going to be accepting all of the formal
10:57:04 decisions, we were accepting them, right?
10:57:06 Isn't this how this started out?
10:57:10 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Let me explain to you, pre-April 2010 the
10:57:13 code was very generic as it related to the zoning
10:57:15 administrator interpretation, and a written letter.
10:57:18 It was all encompassing, and basically, anything as a zoning
10:57:24 administrator, even if I would e-mail somebody a written
10:57:27 response to an interpretation of code, I was very limited
10:57:31 because even a written interpretation in an e-mail,
10:57:35 potentially, could be binding.
10:57:37 So it came to a head with some questions of certain cases
10:57:42 that went through the process, and they actually went
10:57:44 through public hearing, where we needed the city attorney at
10:57:47 that time, Chip Fletcher, to make sure the process was very,
10:57:53 very concrete.
10:57:54 We would carve out a formal decision process that has a
10:57:58 notice process and open records period.
10:58:01 There is a formal letter that someone can take to the bank,
10:58:04 and, you know, get title to property and get insurance and
10:58:07 There's an advisory process where someone is asking the
10:58:11 question, and they could be a third party, only a property
10:58:15 owner or other agent can ask a question for a formal
10:58:18 decision, but a third party can ask for an advisory opinion.
10:58:21 So it's delegated to staff.
10:58:23 They can write a generic letter about what the code says.
10:58:27 If someone wants to challenge that, they really would have
10:58:29 to come in for a formal decision.
10:58:33 The alternative design exception process is really just an
10:58:36 all encompassing process, because all of that code criteria
10:58:40 that allowed alternatives is already in the code.
10:58:42 In overlays.
10:58:45 It says if you get an alternative design exception, the
10:58:50 zoning administrator interpretations throughout the code,
10:58:52 because not every code fits every property in all
10:58:57 So what we did with the alternative design process was we
10:59:01 incorporated one process, with very clear steps and
10:59:06 criteria, which was a product process that was already in
10:59:10 code, so we have a design exception 1 and design exception
10:59:13 The design exception 2 was the replacement for the
10:59:15 administrative variance which required notice.
10:59:18 And it is literally for setback changes.
10:59:20 >>MARY MULHERN: So there is a change in the process, not a
10:59:24 change between councils but a change between a variance
10:59:28 review and --
10:59:33 >> Not a Variance Review Board.
10:59:35 Yes, they are all administrative --
10:59:37 >>MARY MULHERN: What was the administrative variance before
10:59:39 is now a design exception --
10:59:42 >> Design exception 2.
10:59:45 >>MARY MULHERN: It's really semantics?
10:59:47 >> Yes, and we incorporate under one design process and made
10:59:51 it very clear what it was.
10:59:52 And with a determination which is now advisory opinion,
10:59:57 certification letter, those three types of letters, before
11:00:02 2010 it was just a broad list of interpretations.
11:00:05 >>MARY MULHERN: So now you do all three of those things for
11:00:08 every request for design exceptions?
11:00:16 >> A formal decision is one process.
11:00:18 A design exception is a totally different process.
11:00:21 An advisory opinion is a different type --
11:00:23 >>MARY MULHERN: A formal decision is for what?
11:00:26 >> You as the property owner or your agent that you assign
11:00:30 can ask about your property.
11:00:32 And there are limits on what you can ask for as far as your
11:00:41 lot, if you want a front one, and in the broader sense you
11:00:46 can ask what the code means specifically to your property.
11:00:50 You can't ask hypothetically --
11:00:52 >> So before --
11:00:57 >>CATHERINE COYLE: April 2010.
11:00:59 >>MARY MULHERN: -- it wasn't necessarily -- was it even
11:01:01 called that?
11:01:02 >> It's just an interpretation letter.
11:01:04 Except the difference was, you could -- hold on -- the
11:01:08 difference before April 2010, you as a third party could ask
11:01:13 about my property, and that letter would be binding.
11:01:18 After April 2010, it was a formal letter.
11:01:27 That's one of the reasons why we changed it because now that
11:01:30 formal decision is binding.
11:01:32 And you as a property owner can ask, but I can't ask about
11:01:35 your property and get some crazy determination.
11:01:39 >>MARY MULHERN: So every time there is a request to you for
11:01:44 an interpretation of the code, you provide a formal
11:01:50 decision, written formal decision to the applicant?
11:01:55 Is that correct?
11:01:58 >>CATHERINE COYLE: You as the property owner are applying
11:02:00 and asking a question about your land and how the code
11:02:03 applies not this situation, and then we write a formal
11:02:06 There's an open record period with notice. Everybody can
11:02:09 submit whatever they want top this notice.
11:02:12 It's the same --
11:02:13 >>MARY MULHERN: The same neighbors get notice?
11:02:16 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It's the same notice procedure as
11:02:18 Everyone within 250 feet.
11:02:19 Neighborhood associations, participating originals, the
11:02:22 signs posted on the yard, the open period of 15 days, all
11:02:25 evidence comes in, the record closes.
11:02:27 We review all of the evidence that comes in.
11:02:30 And we weigh that evidence, and we weigh it really against
11:02:35 the ultimate question that was asked.
11:02:36 Because sometimes stuff comes in that is just complaining
11:02:39 about the property.
11:02:40 But if it's not really related the question that is asked,
11:02:44 responsible for answering the question that the property
11:02:46 owners ask.
11:02:47 And then we issued the letter.
11:02:49 And then from there, there is the appeal process.
11:02:51 It's called the review process.
11:02:53 That's the one that they have an option.
11:02:55 They can go to the hearing officer that council put in the
11:02:58 code, or they can opt to come to City Council.
11:03:01 >>MARY MULHERN: So the next thing you were getting to is if
11:03:09 there is a question by a third party, then you give an
11:03:20 advisory opinion?
11:03:23 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We can.
11:03:24 The code actually says we are not compelled to respond, but
11:03:26 we can.
11:03:26 >>JULIA MANDELL: Legal department.
11:03:30 I think I need to put a little more context in this from the
11:03:32 legal perspective.
11:03:34 The changes that were made that Ms. Coyle is describing were
11:03:37 made as a result of the previous city attorney Chip Fletcher
11:03:41 looking at our code and having some serious concern about us
11:03:45 creating property rights on people's properties the way the
11:03:49 deferred party requests.
11:03:52 So the language put in there was not put in there as a
11:03:55 result of the zoning administrator putting that language in
11:03:56 the code.
11:03:57 It was really because we felt very strongly that if we
11:04:00 didn't clarify some of these legal practices, we were
11:04:03 already seeing a tremendous amount of litigation coming at
11:04:05 us in interpretation.
11:04:08 >> You might understand that but a lot of other council
11:04:13 members may not understand that and I want to make vet
11:04:15 enclosure for anybody listening that it wasn't an attempt to
11:04:19 do anything more than make sure our processes were legally
11:04:22 supportable because we were having some issues and we were
11:04:25 going into litigation on some of these interpretations.
11:04:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Just to make two points.
11:04:34 It was -- that amendment to the code was a legal department
11:04:37 initiated amendment.
11:04:38 It wasn't one that I wrote and created an thought through.
11:04:41 It was actually the legal department coming forward and
11:04:43 saying this has to be done.
11:04:45 There were a few cases that went through the process, not
11:04:48 even an administrator process, just a public hearing process
11:04:52 along the way.
11:04:53 What was happening was there were third parties, either for
11:04:55 or against whatever case it was, who were asking,
11:04:58 specifically me, to write specific letters about what was
11:05:01 going on, which put me in a difficult position because the
11:05:04 old code essentially made me write stuff.
11:05:07 And I could write stuff that T anybody about anything.
11:05:09 This new process was very clear that I could only answer you
11:05:14 and lock in some type of property limitation if you were
11:05:17 actually the property owner.
11:05:19 That was kind of the dangerous part was the third party
11:05:23 requests were coming in, and so in a lot of ways, I was glad
11:05:27 the change was being done through the legal department
11:05:30 because it was a very awkward position personally to be in
11:05:33 to write those letters.
11:05:34 >>MARY MULHERN: So here is what I am trying to understand
11:05:37 So if you have a third party, the thought that there are two
11:05:42 different possibilities, right?
11:05:43 You could have a third party come -- a third party comes and
11:05:50 asks you about a process that's happening to a neighbor,
11:05:55 that they are going through, and ask for your interpretation
11:05:58 of the code for what they are doing, or like they have been
11:06:02 noticed what they are going to be doing, right?
11:06:08 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Yes.
11:06:08 Or if they really want something in writing, the only way
11:06:11 is --
11:06:12 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay, why don't you just give them a copy
11:06:17 of the -- of the formal decision letter that you gave to the
11:06:25 >> We actually would.
11:06:26 At the end of the formal decision process, it's required
11:06:28 that anyone that actually submitted information as part of
11:06:31 the open record period that they get copied on the final
11:06:35 It's part of the process.
11:06:36 >>MARY MULHERN: So the formal process, or the concrete
11:06:40 formal decision letter goes to everyone who is noticed?
11:06:47 >> It's everyone that participated.
11:06:49 I think it might have been everyone who participated.
11:06:51 Because the thing is if you come in and ask, we'll give you
11:06:53 a copy of anything.
11:06:54 >>MARY MULHERN: But the notice goes for the same neighbors
11:06:59 that would be notified for any --
11:07:02 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The same notice process.
11:07:04 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay, good.
11:07:06 And then I know I'm taking a lot of time but maybe I'll do
11:07:11 it all over.
11:07:14 >>CATHERINE COYLE: What I wanted --
11:07:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, let me finish because I only have one
11:07:24 more thing on here.
11:07:26 I believe when I originally made this motion in March --
11:07:31 which is a long time ago -- that what I wanted was for us to
11:07:40 have more regular council to have all of those formal
11:07:47 decisions presented to us on a more regular basis.
11:07:57 On a more frequent basis.
11:07:59 That's what the motion says here.
11:08:00 So tell me what you are proposing or what your answer is to
11:08:05 >> Again we didn't write the original amendment.
11:08:09 It came from the legal department.
11:08:11 And that was added in and Julie can explain why.
11:08:14 The formal decisions go into the city records, obviously,
11:08:17 because we transmit on an annual basis --
11:08:21 >>MARY MULHERN: Right, right, right, right, that's what my
11:08:22 motion was about originally.
11:08:24 Maybe you want to answer this -- was that we would like -- I
11:08:29 would like for those to come to council on a more regular --
11:08:36 you know, maybe quarterly?
11:08:37 Because we got -- we are given this whole huge thing to
11:08:43 approve, and we would like to have those decisions available
11:08:49 to us on a more regular basis.
11:08:52 That is what the motion was.
11:08:53 >>JULIA MANDELL: Legal department.
11:08:56 The purpose behind that code was not for them to come to you
11:09:00 to approve.
11:09:01 It was because the office will only take things into the
11:09:05 public record through receiving and filing from City
11:09:08 Council. So that was the process, because at the time we
11:09:13 drafted the code, it was important for the legal department
11:09:17 to have those formal decisions placed in the public record,
11:09:21 and that was the process understood which they should be
11:09:24 placed in the, quote, public record.
11:09:26 Because we have now gone and this is several years ago
11:09:29 because of changes in what's happening over at the Land
11:09:32 Development Coordination, in terms of their consideration,
11:09:38 we don't necessarily need to have those come to council for
11:09:40 the purposes of receiving and filing.
11:09:43 If you want to change the code to have them come more often,
11:09:46 that's the thing --
11:09:48 >>MARY MULHERN: I have a problem with that.
11:09:50 Why would that change so it doesn't have to come?
11:09:55 >>JULIA MANDELL: The point of that section of code is to
11:09:57 make sure that those formal decisions upon being lenders
11:10:01 aren't just stuck in a file somewhere, that they were
11:10:03 actually somewhere in a place where they can be reviewed by
11:10:07 whoever, members of the public, or actually by other
11:10:10 property owners might use due diligence, say I want to go
11:10:14 buy a parcel of property and I want to find out what's
11:10:17 happened on this particular property, that there was some
11:10:19 kind of searchable database to find that kind of
11:10:22 Now, there's a reason that it was drafted that way was
11:10:25 simply for the purposes of having it placed in the public
11:10:27 records --
11:10:30 >>MARY MULHERN: It was drafted to come to council, and it
11:10:33 does come to council once a year and it showed up, a what I
11:10:37 wanted to ask was that it come to council, whatever way you
11:10:44 are doing it --
11:10:47 >>JULIA MANDELL: We could change the code.
11:10:49 >>HARRY COHEN: If I could just say I think all she's asking
11:10:51 is she wants to see it regularly so we have some sense of
11:10:54 what's going on.
11:10:55 >> And if could ask -- -- we can certainly bring them to
11:11:05 But I think what Julie is mention towing is with the system
11:11:08 coming online, if any member of the public is going to be
11:11:11 anal to search anyway from their iPhone.
11:11:14 Because it was several years ago it was a mechanism of the
11:11:17 technology that we had, so she made sure it got passed the
11:11:20 resolution placed in this work file.
11:11:21 The reality is now it will all be searchable because it will
11:11:24 be in that system.
11:11:25 >>MARY MULHERN: When will that be?
11:11:29 >> It's actually --
11:11:31 >>HARRY COHEN: Let me go to Councilwoman Montelione.
11:11:34 She's been waiting patiently.
11:11:35 And then Mrs. Capin is after her.
11:11:37 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you, Mr. Cohen.
11:11:41 Julia, do we have as council the opportunity or the ability
11:11:47 to make any changes to any of those decisions that we are
11:11:51 asking to be received and filed?
11:11:54 >>JULIA MANDELL: No.
11:11:55 That's what I was trying to point out.
11:11:57 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Mrs. Mulhern just Seth left so I'm
11:12:00 saying this for her benefit and she's not here to hear what
11:12:02 your answer is so I'm not sure that she's going to
11:12:05 understand that this is only a mechanic, it's a procedure,
11:12:13 it is not a decision making.
11:12:15 It doesn't matter if they come to us every week or if it
11:12:18 comes to us twice a year or if they come to us once a year,
11:12:21 or in the future because of the technology, because it's
11:12:23 going to be online and it's going to be searchable, then it
11:12:26 doesn't come to us at all.
11:12:29 This is not -- these formal decisions have nothing to do
11:12:33 with council, other than to provide a mechanical way to move
11:12:39 these from the filing cabinets of the building and zoning
11:12:43 division to the filing cabinets of the clerk's office.
11:12:48 That's all it does.
11:12:49 And since we don't have filing cabinets anymore, we have
11:12:54 iPhones, iPads, and the ERP, and all of this lovely
11:13:00 technology, we just spent millions and millions and millions
11:13:04 of dollars on, we don't need to even have this, period.
11:13:10 So I'm not going to support anything that makes us have
11:13:15 these things come to council any more often.
11:13:18 I would be more inclined to take them off the agenda
11:13:21 completely and have them never come to council.
11:13:25 So that means that the reason I want to be recognized first
11:13:29 was because I wanted to clarify what the agenda item is, and
11:13:33 one of the things on the agenda is that we discuss the
11:13:42 element of the zoning process, and our role here during our
11:13:45 strategic planning session.
11:13:47 So when I see agenda review with Ms. Kert yesterday, we
11:13:52 talked about some of those things that, you know, Ms. Coyle
11:13:57 didn't prepare a presentation because she wasn't at our or a
11:14:01 participant in our strategic planning session.
11:14:03 So she couldn't prepare a presentation, not knowing what we
11:14:08 wanted to talk about.
11:14:10 So the one thing that I know was very important to our
11:14:15 chair, and to some of the others, was to eliminate the
11:14:20 passing out of maps and site plans and conditions in between
11:14:26 every single item that we have on our agenda for any given
11:14:31 It slows us down, it's confusing, it's messy.
11:14:35 So what I ask is that Ms. Coyle change that procedure and
11:14:39 that we discuss it, so suggested that we can eliminate the
11:14:44 We have the aerial that is on the screen in front of us.
11:14:48 We have the aerial sent to us in our agenda packet.
11:14:52 There's in a reason for another piece of paper, you know, to
11:14:56 be passed out during the meeting of an aerial.
11:14:58 We already have it in the agenda package and it's on the
11:15:01 screen in front of us when they are giving a presentation.
11:15:03 So that was one.
11:15:05 And the other is that to avoid the whole paper passing out
11:15:09 completely was to consider that the week before our land use
11:15:14 meeting, a file is delivered and placed in our conference
11:15:19 room for all of us to review.
11:15:21 Rather than just sending over one of those packets, they
11:15:25 would send over seven of those packets.
11:15:29 We would have all the information a week in advance, and
11:15:32 then -- I'm sorry, six.
11:15:37 We already have one.
11:15:40 Okay, whatever the number is.
11:15:44 Apparently I can't count this morning.
11:15:45 So we would have them all here a week in advance.
11:15:48 If there were any changes at the last minute, then that can
11:15:52 be certainly distributed at the meeting.
11:15:53 But that would eliminate the headache of getting the paper
11:15:56 and going through them and taking off the paper clips.
11:16:01 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If you recall, if I could, it was
11:16:03 actually three.
11:16:04 Because if we have eight or nine copies of the site plan,
11:16:07 the applicant is going to have --
11:16:10 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Right.
11:16:11 The site plans -- only pass out three.
11:16:15 We have the additional copy in the conference room so
11:16:17 there's four actually site plans.
11:16:21 >>CATHERINE COYLE: So we are free to deliver them and laid
11:16:25 them in the back for you that would save the up-and-down.
11:16:28 And also not just the aerial but the aerial in the zoning
11:16:30 map could be embedded in the report, the digital report, and
11:16:33 then your aides could print it out as part of the report.
11:16:36 And that would go paper as well.
11:16:39 >>LISA MONTELIONE: That is one of the things I discussed in
11:16:43 the strategic planning session to eliminate that headache
11:16:45 for all of us.
11:16:47 And once we get our iPads, you won't need any of the
11:16:50 papers so we'll see when that takes them.
11:16:53 We can change the procedure again.
11:16:55 If there were any other items that were very important to
11:16:59 other council members that came out of that session, then
11:17:04 now would the time to share those concerns.
11:17:06 I think one of them we too cake of already at Mr. Reddick's
11:17:11 We have already added a second night to our calendar, in
11:17:17 case we need to split the zoning cases, so that was another
11:17:20 thing that came out of the strategic planning session.
11:17:22 But we already took care of that.
11:17:24 So --
11:17:35 >>FRANK REDDICK: The probationary came out of that.
11:17:38 >> The five minutes.
11:17:39 >>LISA MONTELIONE: That applied to all, not just rezoning.
11:17:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am going to buy time watches for all of
11:17:47 you so you can time yourself.
11:17:48 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I think that was less than five minutes.
11:17:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm only joking with you.
11:17:53 >>LISA MONTELIONE: So these are other kinds of things that
11:17:57 have been taken care of.
11:17:58 I know I had mentioned about speakers at the microphone and
11:18:03 we were having trouble with the audio for a while, that it
11:18:06 was difficult to hear.
11:18:13 We have taken care of that.
11:18:14 If there's anything else procedurally that anybody has an
11:18:17 issue with.
11:18:19 That was the whole point of that agenda item.
11:18:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
11:18:23 Ms. Capin.
11:18:25 Mr. Cohen?
11:18:28 >>HARRY COHEN: Since we have morphed into the second part
11:18:30 of the discussion in this workshop, Councilman Miranda
11:18:34 brought up the issue of the continuances that are constantly
11:18:40 occurring, particularly on our land use agendas, and I
11:18:43 wanted to make another generalized comment about the evening
11:18:47 meeting agendas.
11:18:49 You know, I have made an effort to try to stay familiar with
11:18:53 what's on the calendar, to try to guide some of our process
11:18:57 in setting things.
11:18:58 And it's really been very, very difficult to do because
11:19:01 things get continued and changed so often and so regularly
11:19:06 that even despite our best efforts, sometimes our meetings
11:19:11 are not consistent in terms of how much time we are really
11:19:17 spending here, and I wanted to just make a couple of general
11:19:20 observations about that.
11:19:25 The first is that it's obviously a great burden on the
11:19:29 public to have something noticed, and then constantly
11:19:32 continued, particularly at the last minute.
11:19:35 The other thing is because of the way that we set everything
11:19:38 at the same time, we basically -- in my view, we are more
11:19:44 considerate of our own calendar than we are oft public's in
11:19:47 the sense that if we set everything at 10:30, we just go as
11:19:51 long as we possibly can, and they have to sit here while we
11:19:55 make it through all sorts of different items.
11:19:57 And the reason we do that is because we don't know in
11:19:59 advance if we are going to need to set something in the
11:20:02 afternoon, because we might get finished early.
11:20:04 And I would suggest that we might want to think about
11:20:07 actually just assuming that we are going to have to start up
11:20:10 again at 1:30, noticing things for that time, and that would
11:20:14 also go toward making our lunch breaks more predictable,
11:20:19 because one of the problems I know everyone here has is that
11:20:23 different Thursdays, you know, some have to leave for -- you
11:20:28 know, there are certain boards, for example, I know that
11:20:30 actually meet, as Councilwoman Capin has to go to a City
11:20:34 Council-attended board on a Thursday afternoon once in a
11:20:37 while at lunch time.
11:20:38 So there are reasons that it might be better to be more
11:20:44 predictable in that sense.
11:20:45 The other thing that I was just going to mention about the
11:20:47 calendar is that I always -- I have been trying lately to
11:20:52 think about things that we anticipate are going to take a
11:20:57 very long time.
11:20:58 It's not that difficult to know that some of the items are
11:21:01 going to clearly run for long period of time, and it's been
11:21:06 my observation that we ought to at least try not to schedule
11:21:09 those type of items on the same night, because if we get two
11:21:13 or three of those type items, we really end up being not
11:21:16 only being here very late ourselves, but we end up really
11:21:19 exhausting the public that's here to comment on the issue.
11:21:23 So as we are discussing them, I think this would be a good
11:21:26 time to see if we can't maybe come to some consensus on
11:21:29 streamlining things going forward.
11:21:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
11:21:33 Any other council members at this time?
11:21:37 Mrs. Montelione, and then we go to the counsel.
11:21:41 >>LISA MONTELIONE: There was another issue again brought
11:21:44 you by you, Mr. Miranda, about the zoning hearings and that
11:21:47 was something else we discussed yesterday.
11:21:49 The process whereby our staff makes the -- introduce it is
11:21:55 case, makes the presentation.
11:21:57 Then we hear from the Planning Commission and our staff
11:22:01 comes back.
11:22:02 And that was put in place at the request of the planning
11:22:05 commission, because they felt that because the comprehensive
11:22:09 code is the underlying guidance for the zoning decision,
11:22:19 that the zoning lays on top of the comprehensive plan, that
11:22:23 they should present the background first of the plan, and
11:22:27 then we listen to the zoning discussion.
11:22:32 So that is why that occurs that way.
11:22:36 But if council doesn't feel that that's productive, that we
11:22:39 should just let our zoning staff make the case, and then
11:22:46 hear the background from the Planning Commission, that's our
11:22:48 prerogative to do that.
11:22:49 So if you would like to change that and just have two blocks
11:22:52 of time instead of the one, two, three, then we can do that.
11:22:55 It was just a request of the Planning Commission because of
11:23:00 their, I guess, academic way of looking at it.
11:23:11 That was discussed on the land use.
11:23:14 Mr. Shelby, you might want to remind individuals of things
11:23:18 that were discussed either at the strategic planning session
11:23:22 or procedural things that you think have been noticed.
11:23:25 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:23:33 There was a time and it wasn't that long ago that council
11:23:35 did set the first readings for 1:30 in the afternoon.
11:23:38 And it was set on the agenda to come back for those
11:23:42 And when there was the recession and the downturn in the
11:23:46 economy, council realized that at certain points of time
11:23:49 your morning agenda wrapped up pretty early and you were
11:23:52 obligated to come back at 1:30.
11:23:54 These are advertised noticed public hearings.
11:23:56 Therefore you cannot change the time which brings me to my
11:23:58 second point.
11:23:59 In order to see if council can accommodate what Councilman
11:24:04 Cohen said.
11:24:05 Your evening agendas are set by staff based on council's
11:24:10 direction within its code -- excuse me, within its rules
11:24:14 that you are limited to 13 items on the evening agenda.
11:24:18 What they do -- and Ms. Coyle can speak to this much better
11:24:22 than I -- is there is a calendar so that when somebody comes
11:24:26 in with a petition they can pretty much know when they will
11:24:28 be able to be heard by City Council.
11:24:32 >>CATHERINE COYLE: You set the limits in your procedures and
11:24:34 we run by that limit.
11:24:35 >>HARRY COHEN: But for scheduling purposes, not for the
11:24:40 merits of matters, just for scheduling purposes, it's an art
11:24:44 as well as a science to set the agenda of how many items are
11:24:48 going to be heard, and in what order, and because some items
11:24:58 just take longer than others and are going to elicit more
11:25:01 public comment than others.
11:25:02 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Back in the day when I used to do them,
11:25:06 you were actually the chair back at that time in early --
11:25:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You were 12 years old.
11:25:16 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We said, we have the Euclidean, we have
11:25:18 that bad case, can we switch them around?
11:25:22 Most of the time, it was understood and was announced in the
11:25:28 beginning, item number 6 is going to be heard at the end.
11:25:30 Now there was a time that we could actually stack the deck
11:25:33 at staff, and then as the cases come in now, put them in
11:25:39 sequential order.
11:25:39 So you could change it literally with the clerk, and
11:25:44 actually as we submit them, they go in the order that we
11:25:47 submit versus automatically putting them in a sequential
11:25:51 So that's a slight change just in how we process things.
11:25:54 >> Mr. Shelby.
11:26:02 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We know before they come which ones are
11:26:03 going to be the most difficult cases.
11:26:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Are you telling me that Mr. Shelby has
11:26:07 the floor?
11:26:08 [ Laughter ] Mr. Shelby.
11:26:11 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:26:14 A lot of your agenda the way it has been structured has been
11:26:17 driven, the software has been driven by the process, what
11:26:20 was it, the doc agenda, which will no longer exist.
11:26:24 And that's what made things difficult to reorder in the
11:26:29 So with this new process, the clerk would probably be able
11:26:33 to accommodate the time that council suggested.
11:26:38 Coyle we are placing them on the agenda and the agenda is
11:26:43 being built essentially by the people that put it on there.
11:26:46 So I'll talk to sandy afterwards just to see if we will
11:26:51 reorder it or if we place it in the order that we want it
11:26:53 that it will show up that way.
11:26:55 I'm not sure of anything right now.
11:26:58 I can talk to the clerk's office to figure out.
11:27:00 So we can put them in more logical order for time purposes.
11:27:05 The day meetings I thought, those are the ones we have
11:27:08 issues with sometimes.
11:27:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Suarez.
11:27:10 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Mr. Shelby, is there any way -- and this is
11:27:14 a legal question pertaining to how we report out to the
11:27:19 public in terms of what the land use meetings are going to
11:27:24 Is there any way that we can put, instead of just specific
11:27:28 times or specific time, is there any leeway in how we can
11:27:35 report when something might be coming up, if we said, you
11:27:39 know, 10:30 or extend it to, you know, a later time during
11:27:47 that same okay day?
11:27:48 I know when things are continued, a lot of times we get them
11:27:51 that week, so we can't re-report.
11:27:56 Is there anything that you know of that you have seen in
11:27:57 other jurisdictions to move some of those things?
11:28:03 For example, do you have a 10:30 now, because of the length
11:28:05 of time that another 10:30 took, is not going to be until
11:28:10 1:30 or later, how can we adjust that on the legal side?
11:28:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You have the ability, once time to notice
11:28:19 public hearing is reached, to then make the determination of
11:28:22 how you want to handle that case.
11:28:24 So, for example, as you say, you could actually see, knowing
11:28:30 how the agenda is going at 9:00, you are going to have
11:28:33 problems with your 10:30 hearing, legally you cannot really
11:28:36 address what you are going to do until 10:30.
11:28:39 But at that point in time, you can assess, this council can
11:28:42 assess, the chairman can assess what the agenda is, and if
11:28:46 your decision then is after 10:30 to announce that those
11:28:50 public hearings are going to be heard at 1:30, and then --
11:28:56 or anytime thereafter, you can actually remove them from the
11:28:59 morning agenda and put them on the afternoon agenda or
11:29:01 whatever council wishes, as long as the decision is made at
11:29:04 an open, noticed public meeting after the time which it is
11:29:09 scheduled and advertised to be heard.
11:29:10 >>MIKE SUAREZ: And the reason I am asking is because we
11:29:14 recreate this problem for ourselves in terms of this, which
11:29:16 is having noticed public hearing, we'll have a room full of
11:29:20 people that want to discuss that particular hearing.
11:29:24 We don't get to it.
11:29:26 And we delay it until the afternoon.
11:29:29 Most of those people are gone, or they have other things to
11:29:32 do because their plan was to be here for that 10:30 meeting
11:29:35 thinking, as we like to say, time certain when in fact it
11:29:38 isn't time certain.
11:29:39 How can we accommodate a situation where, I mean, there are
11:29:44 scheduling issues and other things.
11:29:49 As a matter of law, how is that fair to anyone that, you
11:29:53 know, we have announced at 10:30, and now anyone who wants
11:29:57 to speak on it is not there because we have moved it to 1:30
11:30:01 that day?
11:30:03 Do you see what I am saying?
11:30:05 There's inherent unfairness to it because of the way that we
11:30:10 handle our agenda.
11:30:11 And no reflection on the public's ability to be here at any
11:30:16 one time.
11:30:17 So I want to try to find a way that we can announce it as
11:30:21 part of when we send out notice that it would be, you know,
11:30:27 it can be changed that day or something.
11:30:30 I think we need to report to the public, because too many
11:30:32 times we have been here, because of our own problems and our
11:30:37 own issues in terms of getting through our own agenda, we
11:30:39 have a problem with the public either not showing up later
11:30:42 in the afternoon, and not being able to be heard, or having
11:30:46 to stay a lot longer than they had planned to stay.
11:30:48 So I'm not sure how we solve it, but legally, I want to make
11:30:52 sure we can could something that as part of a notice that
11:30:55 although it is a 10:30 hearing, it possibly could be later
11:31:01 in the afternoon, or it means for all day.
11:31:03 I'm not sure how we do that.
11:31:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You may be able to put that into the
11:31:07 The other thing you might want to consider, council, is
11:31:09 staff reports under your rules except during public hearings
11:31:17 shall be limited to five minutes for each subject followed
11:31:19 by comments.
11:31:23 Items for more discussion be shall be subject at a workshop.
11:31:28 The reality is your questions and answers sometimes make
11:31:32 staff reports quite a long process, which then cuts into
11:31:35 your time.
11:31:35 Council may want to consider -- the purpose of having staff
11:31:38 reports at a set time was to make it so that your
11:31:41 administrators and your city employees will not have to
11:31:46 spend all day here as some people do.
11:31:48 So council may want to consider having the hearings heard in
11:31:51 the morning as advertised and have your staff reports at
11:31:54 1:30, and then you have the length of time for policy
11:31:56 discussions as you wish.
11:31:58 >> Well, back to my original question, if you can take a
11:32:04 look at that, if we report that it is on that date, and not
11:32:07 necessarily time certain, can we do that?
11:32:10 Because that way, what we do is, we can, during the course
11:32:14 of the agenda review by chair, and then maybe a week before
11:32:19 be able to make a determination on where we are going to be
11:32:22 at on each one of these, because a lot of times over the
11:32:25 course of a three-week period we have moved things either
11:32:28 within that same month or to a different month for a
11:32:32 different zoning decision, based on continuances and other
11:32:35 things, maybe there is a better way to manage the agenda if
11:32:38 we have that leeway in terms of time certain.
11:32:42 And I'm not sure we can do that legally.
11:32:44 That's the only question I have.
11:32:46 Thank you, chair.
11:32:47 I'm sorry.
11:32:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me just say this.
11:32:50 Since we are talking about time, I have 28 minutes to finish
11:32:53 this agenda today.
11:32:53 It's not going to happen without a continuation past 12.
11:33:00 I have some difficulty in determining why we can't have as
11:33:05 many as we need in order of the agenda already here, so the
11:33:08 passing of papers and the moving around is completely moot.
11:33:11 I don't understand why we can't change where the Planning
11:33:15 Commission comes first or last, makes their recommendation
11:33:18 based on the comp plan, so we come second or first, and make
11:33:21 the complete thing somebody you don't have three changes,
11:33:24 you only have two.
11:33:24 And when you save two or three minutes and you have 13
11:33:27 hearings, you are saving a half hour.
11:33:30 And these are the things that we can do without too much
11:33:36 hampering of the rules, and you can make those
11:33:38 determinations, and you can certainly fix things.
11:33:40 But it takes seven of those to make sure that this agenda is
11:33:44 held perfectly.
11:33:45 And I am not holding anyone responsible to that.
11:33:47 I'm just saying that it works.
11:33:51 Does it work 100% effective?
11:33:54 But it's pretty accurate.
11:33:55 I don't mind come back at 1:30.
11:33:59 I just say that it's up to us to determine what's the best
11:34:03 for everybody.
11:34:05 I have Mrs. Montelione, then Mrs. Mulhern.
11:34:07 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
11:34:09 I have the minutes of our strategic planning session, and
11:34:12 there were only three action items that were on, where it
11:34:17 came out of that strategic planning session.
11:34:20 Two of them were the ones that I mentioned earlier that Mr.
11:34:23 Miranda just spoke about.
11:34:24 The third one is something that was brought up, and that's
11:34:27 the -- I had requested that we have a process that is
11:34:35 similar to the one Hillsborough County has in that anyone
11:34:39 who is planning on speaking in opposition is not prohibited
11:34:46 from just showing up that day and speaking to the item, but
11:34:52 there's written opposition that comes in to us all the time,
11:34:54 and it seems like a haphazard, you know, way for me, because
11:35:00 some people in opposition will write to their district
11:35:04 council person, some will write to all of us, some will
11:35:08 write only those that they know personally, so there doesn't
11:35:12 seem any rhyme or reason, and we have that box that
11:35:17 everything is supposed responsible placed in but that puts
11:35:19 the onus on our staff and our legislative aides.
11:35:22 I mean, if a legislative aide is out for an extended period
11:35:26 of time for whatever reason, they miss something, it doesn't
11:35:29 get into the property box, we have a problem.
11:35:33 So I want that professor to be compared, Ms. Coyle, but
11:35:41 there's got to be a better way.
11:35:43 And since you and I both worked for the county once upon a
11:35:47 time, we were 12.
11:35:49 11, since she started here at 12.
11:35:52 Then you are familiar with the process I'm talking about as
11:35:55 is, I believe, our city attorney.
11:35:58 So trying to come to us in the future, in a different way
11:36:05 with the opposition and with the statements that are filed
11:36:10 would be much easier, I think, both on us, on the public,
11:36:15 and on the applicant.
11:36:17 So, you know, in wanting to hear from the neighborhoods and
11:36:22 wanting to hear about what's going on in their neighborhood,
11:36:26 I think a streamlined process would be something that they
11:36:31 could follow and be sure that they are contacting all of us,
11:36:37 instead of, you know, what seems to be just a haphazard way
11:36:41 that we are receiving them, the opposition letters or
11:36:43 e-mails or phone calls now.
11:36:46 So those are the three things that came out of that session.
11:36:49 So if we can take care of the three things.
11:36:51 Just as an aside, I agree who what was proposed by Mr.
11:36:58 Shelby that we move all of the hearings to the morning so
11:37:00 that people who are taking off from work only have to take
11:37:02 off, you know, a morning, half a day, and be out of here at
11:37:07 lunch time and have all of our staff reports in the
11:37:09 afternoon, so the administration and those working in the
11:37:12 administration can plan their day around, well, I'll take
11:37:16 care of all my stuff before, you know, 1:00.
11:37:19 Because 1:30 I have to be at council for the afternoon for
11:37:23 our policy discussion on whatever the item is that we ask
11:37:28 staff to bring forward.
11:37:29 And do we make those things in the form of a motion, Mr.
11:37:37 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, any changes that you wish to make,
11:37:40 and I ask that each item be done separately so it clear to
11:37:43 the clerk.
11:37:44 If I may interject one more thing that Ms. Coyle handed me
11:37:47 something that she suggested that council may want to
11:37:50 consider for the evening rezoning.
11:37:53 When you order -- when she would order the items on the
11:37:57 agenda to have the Euclidean zonings be grouped together as
11:38:01 first, then the special uses as second, and then the
11:38:04 rezonings, the full hearings with the changes and site plans
11:38:08 be heard in the third grouping.
11:38:10 >>LISA MONTELIONE: If I could make that motion just the way
11:38:14 Mr. Shelby stated it, that would be my motion.
11:38:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mrs. Montelione.
11:38:18 Do we have a second?
11:38:20 Second by Mr. Cohen.
11:38:21 Further discussion of that motion?
11:38:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Territo was quick to help me there.
11:38:30 If you wish to open the floor before you take official
11:38:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Anyone in the audience dire speak to this
11:38:36 item that we are speaking, number 3 and anything pertinent
11:38:39 to the item, please come forward at this time.
11:38:41 Mrs. Mulhern.
11:38:41 >>MARY MULHERN: Before we do that, I had to step out, and I
11:38:46 never finished with my questions on the actual agenda items
11:38:53 that we started with.
11:38:58 But I think we can hear from the public.
11:39:01 But then I need to come back to that after you vote -- after
11:39:04 we hear from the public and vote on this motion because I
11:39:07 didn't get -- wasn't satisfied.
11:39:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, sir?
11:39:11 >> Jerry Frankhauser, T.H.A.N. president, west Hawthorne
11:39:18 I'm not sure why this item is the one that we were talking
11:39:23 about, and I think we discussed with when T.H.A.N. met with
11:39:27 the council people about changing the zoning administrator's
11:39:33 ability to administratively give liquor licenses out.
11:39:40 We discussed it.
11:39:42 The previous council, the last day of previous council, had
11:39:46 come up and made it so that the zoning people would have --
11:39:52 they just have to come in and sign off on the zoning
11:39:55 license, the liquor license, and we discussed the fact that
11:39:58 it's possible that we could reverse that, so that it would
11:40:03 come back to council.
11:40:05 And the neighborhood then would be noticed that they would
11:40:09 be having a liquor permit in their neighborhood that's being
11:40:14 We are not getting that now.
11:40:16 We are only getting after notice that they have done it, and
11:40:20 it's not working out very well.
11:40:22 So I don't know whether that's for today or for tonight.
11:40:25 But when it said zoning administration interpretation and
11:40:29 decision, I thought that maybe I should say something now.
11:40:32 Thank you.
11:40:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I believe that comes up tonight at 5:01.
11:40:37 I'm not 100% sure.
11:40:40 Mrs. Mulhern.
11:40:40 >>MARY MULHERN: That is on the agenda for this morning.
11:40:43 And this was the appropriate time to talk about it.
11:40:46 Apparently, in addition to what was on the agenda didn't get
11:40:55 added to this.
11:40:55 But number 3 agenda item to discuss the formal zoning
11:41:02 administrator interpretation/design process, and to have the
11:41:08 formal decisions come to council on a more frequent basis,
11:41:12 further, that the discussion be expanded to include a land
11:41:16 use workshop as previously discussed.
11:41:19 So we moved into the land use workshop, unfortunately, when
11:41:22 I had to step out for a moment.
11:41:26 I understand -- Mr. Shelby has explained to me that having
11:41:32 these decisions as they have been, apparently for a few
11:41:38 years, come every year, transmitted through council to the
11:41:42 clerk's office is a ministerial procedure.
11:41:46 I would like that to continue.
11:41:50 And I would like it to continue perhaps as often as
11:41:53 possible, perhaps every time there is a concrete formal
11:41:58 decision process and a letter and a decision by the zoning
11:42:03 administrator, and every time there's an alternate design
11:42:06 exception, we should be notified of it.
11:42:12 We should know that it has happened.
11:42:14 Even though we are not voting on it.
11:42:17 We represent the public.
11:42:21 I have the floor, thank you.
11:42:22 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I'm trying to get Mr. Miranda's
11:42:24 attention so he knows I'm next.
11:42:26 I didn't know that raising my hand was --
11:42:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand.
11:42:29 Let's continue.
11:42:29 >>MARY MULHERN: So this is the time to hear from the public
11:42:38 on this and unfortunately I didn't get to hear Mr.
11:42:41 Frankhauser because the attorney was talking in my ear.
11:42:45 So if you wouldn't mind repeating what you said, because
11:42:48 it's important to me.
11:42:49 I didn't want to miss it.
11:42:50 >> What I'm saying is that the last council that you and Mr.
11:42:59 Miranda were on passed -- oh, yes, I'm sorry.
11:43:06 Past rule changes or something that caused liquor
11:43:10 licenses -- and I'm not sure whether it's S-1.
11:43:16 I'm new at this.
11:43:17 But they didn't have to come before council to change the
11:43:20 zoning or add zoning in neighborhoods.
11:43:24 That they just have to go to the zoning administrator --
11:43:29 >>MARY MULHERN: You were just talking about the wet zone or
11:43:32 the special use permits?
11:43:34 >> That's right.
11:43:35 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm sorry. So that is tonight.
11:43:37 I'm sorry.
11:43:37 >> I didn't know if it was today or tonight.
11:43:41 So thank you.
11:43:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I was going to ask Mr. Shelby to address
11:43:44 that but it's already for tonight at 5:30, I believe.
11:43:50 Mr. Shelby, just put it on the on the record.
11:43:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That item is scheduled for 5:30, after the
11:43:58 discussion which is going to be heard first at 5:30 on the
11:44:02 economic impact of cultural assets advisory committee
11:44:06 So that will be heard at -- time after 5:30 at the
11:44:11 conclusion of the cultural assets committee report of the
11:44:14 Mr. Chairman, if I could just -- forgive me, but this is a
11:44:17 very interesting distinction because it was brought up that
11:44:22 council -- and it could be discussed tonight -- it is
11:44:25 appropriate to discuss it tonight -- but that is something
11:44:27 that when the previous council, one of the last official
11:44:34 acts, if not the last official act, was to make certain
11:44:37 special uses based on criteria that was approved by City
11:44:41 Council to be administratively done.
11:44:44 And no confusion on that.
11:44:46 That is a separate process again with regard to special use.
11:44:50 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand.
11:44:51 Are you finished, Mrs. Mulhern?
11:44:54 Mrs. Montelione?
11:44:55 >>MARY MULHERN: I think so.
11:44:56 Let me make sure I so I don't misinterpret what's going on
11:45:00 The workshop tonight is not -- is only discussing special
11:45:03 use permits?
11:45:05 Or are we talking about administrative zoning decisions?
11:45:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, sir.
11:45:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Initially it was just for the purposes of
11:45:18 alcoholic beverage permitting.
11:45:19 But my belief is that number 5, when you made the motion
11:45:24 which really in reference to what's being discussed today,
11:45:27 the formal decisions, and you amended it to also include
11:45:31 informal, but for whatever reason it got placed into the
11:45:34 5:30 alcoholic beverage.
11:45:37 >>MARY MULHERN: So that is noticed so we will probably
11:45:41 be --
11:45:44 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It was in the beginning but --
11:45:46 >>MARY MULHERN: All right, fine.
11:45:47 But it's the public who is here now for that will be here
11:45:52 tonight, and I can save whatever motion I am going to make
11:45:56 for tonight.
11:46:00 You will be here tonight?
11:46:01 You will?
11:46:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay.
11:46:04 Before I go to the public continuation, I have Mrs.
11:46:07 Montelione and Ms. Capin.
11:46:09 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Really have one other person to speak,
11:46:14 John Jones from the public, and he has something short.
11:46:17 I want to remind everyone that there is a motion on the
11:46:20 floor and not to lose sight of that.
11:46:22 And I have a couple of other motions that we have already
11:46:27 And I don't know if you are going to speak to this, Mr.
11:46:29 Jones, but Ms. Mulhern, you were out of the room when we
11:46:33 clarified that the process of the zoning administrators
11:46:42 decisions in the form of the letters that we talked about
11:46:44 just before you left, it's a mechanical process.
11:46:51 And I am going to read almost verbatim what I said earlier.
11:46:55 It's a way of taking the paper from the filing cabinets of
11:47:00 the zoning administrator and the legal department to the
11:47:03 filing cabinet of the clerk's office. We don't --
11:47:07 >>MARY MULHERN: I was --
11:47:13 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I have four minutes, Mrs. Mulhern. I
11:47:16 get reprimanded every time you get interrupted, but I would
11:47:20 like to say that you do your fair share of interrupting as
11:47:24 So what that is is just the mechanical process.
11:47:28 It's a way to get into the clerk's record much like our
11:47:31 domestic partner registry is filed with the clerk's office,
11:47:34 the county clerk, so that it could be searched and looked up
11:47:37 and retrieved in an electronic format.
11:47:40 That's all we are doing.
11:47:42 And we are changing our technology and spending $30 million
11:47:45 to do so, I believe, on the ERP, so that we have the
11:47:50 electronic access to those records.
11:47:54 There's not any reason legally or as service to the public
11:47:59 for us to hear, to have this item scheduled either once or
11:48:04 twice or every week or twice a year or at all, because all
11:48:08 it is is providing a way for the public to access those
11:48:13 Not for us to weigh in.
11:48:15 We don't need to do anything.
11:48:16 That's all it is, is moving it from a filing cabinets of the
11:48:19 zoning administrator and the legal department to the filing
11:48:21 cabinets of the clerk's office.
11:48:25 And technology is making that process obsolete.
11:48:27 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mrs. Montelione.
11:48:32 I have now heard that, one, two, three times --
11:48:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Excuse me, let's just --
11:48:41 >>MARY MULHERN: I heard that three times because my aide
11:48:43 told me what you said as I came back into the chambers,
11:48:47 because Mr. Shelby came and told me, and because you
11:48:50 repeated it again.
11:48:51 So the public heard it three times, too.
11:48:53 So I think we have all heard it now.
11:48:56 Thank you very much.
11:48:56 And it doesn't answer my question.
11:48:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you all very much.
11:49:00 I do have a motion on the floor made some time back made by
11:49:05 Mrs. Montelione, seconded by Mr. Cohen, I believe.
11:49:07 We haven't finished. I haven't taken a vote.
11:49:09 I won't take a vote until we hear you.
11:49:13 Yes, sir.
11:49:13 >> John Jones, 1704 west Jetton Avenue.
11:49:18 I will try to keep this very short.
11:49:19 I do agree with Mr. Frankhauser that these things should be
11:49:23 more transparent.
11:49:25 There are a lot of ways to do that.
11:49:26 It doesn't necessarily have to be that everything comes
11:49:28 before council.
11:49:29 I understand the time limits of things that you have to look
11:49:34 Next, I'm very hopeful on this Excella program that it might
11:49:42 provide some opportunities for transparency, for
11:49:44 convenience, and for speed.
11:49:51 If those decisions are made openly with the public having an
11:49:56 opportunity to be there and speak, with notice given through
11:50:03 the zoning administrator, zoning manager, so we can be there
11:50:07 and talk to it similar to what you would Do here, that's one
11:50:11 of the things that I think would make it a lot easier.
11:50:19 I am not going to go into a lot of detail.
11:50:22 That's what I do and I could be here for an hour.
11:50:25 There are a lot of ways to provide all of that information
11:50:27 hopefully through Excella.
11:50:33 >> We go back to the original motion by Mrs. Montelione.
11:50:36 None else care to speak?
11:50:38 >> Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of council.
11:50:45 My name is John Grandoff, and counsel Mr. Shelby, suite 3700
11:50:51 Bank of America Plaza.
11:50:52 This is on item 4, correct?
11:50:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No.
11:50:55 We are on item 3.
11:50:57 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: I'm sorry.
11:50:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Item 4 will be held more likely next
11:51:00 Thursday the way it looks.
11:51:01 I'm only joke.
11:51:03 >> I want to speak on 3 briefly.
11:51:05 And first I would like to commend you to read section 2751
11:51:11 through 27-61 at your leisure, not today.
11:51:16 But it sets out a very detailed, fair, due process plan of
11:51:23 procedures to what I would call the typical day in, day out
11:51:29 zoning questions that are handled by the zoning
11:51:33 That office is uniquely qualified to consider these
11:51:39 And understood principles of the charter, you are charged
11:51:42 with more policy making decisions and more area-wide
11:51:46 decisions on neighborhood-based decisions.
11:51:49 Before 2010 it was quite chaotic, and the zoning
11:51:53 administrator was having to defer many decisions to the
11:51:57 council or the appointed board, and I think that was not
11:52:00 very efficient.
11:52:02 One proof of the efficiency of this process under section
11:52:05 2751 is that many, many times, they could be handled by the
11:52:10 property owner on their own, or by a general contractor, or
11:52:15 by an architect, and you rarely needed an attorney involved.
11:52:18 I rarely handled any of these matters.
11:52:21 And I think that is a compliment to the process and a
11:52:24 compliment to the zoning administrator and to the processes
11:52:27 illustrated in these sections.
11:52:31 I urge you to read through it.
11:52:35 I learn something every time I read it and learn through it.
11:52:38 You will see there is a very detailed notice process, a very
11:52:41 detailed appeal process, and ultimately if a matter is
11:52:45 worthy of you hearing it, it can become before you for a
11:52:49 further hearing, and further relief in the court system, if
11:52:57 I urge you to keep it simple.
11:52:59 This is a simplified process.
11:53:01 I think if you went back to a more detailed council review
11:53:07 that you would get bogged down in minutia, and what would be
11:53:12 left for the zoning administrator to administer over the
11:53:15 zoning code, if it became a very detailed minutia review by
11:53:21 I don't think you want to take on that type of review, and I
11:53:24 urge to you keep this process in place.
11:53:26 I think it's working very good.
11:53:28 And I thank you for your very time this morning.
11:53:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
11:53:32 On the motion that was originally made by Mrs. Montelione,
11:53:36 seconded by Mr. Cohen.
11:53:37 Any further discussion on that?
11:53:39 All in favor of the motion please indicate by saying aye.
11:53:41 Opposed nay.
11:53:43 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Mr. Shelby, would you state the motion,
11:53:49 Because I can restate it, but --
11:53:54 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The motion was to order the items on the
11:53:57 evening rezoning agenda to have them set in this order: The
11:54:03 Euclidean zonings are in the first grouping, set first, then
11:54:10 followed by special uses, then followed by site plan zoning.
11:54:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The motion is on the floor.
11:54:17 I have a second by Mr. Cohen.
11:54:19 We'll take another voice vote.
11:54:22 All had in favor of that motion indicate by saying aye.
11:54:24 Opposed nay. The ayes have it unanimously.
11:54:26 >>LISA MONTELIONE: And I have the other two motions if I
11:54:29 may get through them.
11:54:32 I motion that staff be directed to prepare our materials for
11:54:38 zoning hearings one week in advance and have them delivered
11:54:43 to council in the number that is appropriate.
11:54:48 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I think you also added the area in the
11:54:55 zoning map --
11:54:57 >>LISA MONTELIONE: And have it all as one motion, that the
11:55:00 aerial be eliminated from our packet for the evening
11:55:04 rezoning agendas as well as the zoning map, because they
11:55:09 were already included in our packet.
11:55:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mrs. Montelione.
11:55:13 Do I have a second?
11:55:15 No second?
11:55:15 >>MARY MULHERN: I have a problem with not including those
11:55:21 in our packet.
11:55:21 >>LISA MONTELIONE: We get them in our agenda.
11:55:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Just a second.
11:55:26 They are already included --
11:55:29 >> During the meeting.
11:55:31 But specifically that we would be --
11:55:34 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The staff reports that we send, attached
11:55:35 to that digitally is the colored aerial and the colored
11:55:38 zoning map.
11:55:42 So then when you print you are stuff out, all be inclusive
11:55:48 in your packet.
11:55:49 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
11:55:51 Because that hasn't necessarily been my experience.
11:55:53 What we have been getting has been -- the backup material of
11:56:01 the zoning agenda hearings are usually black and white.
11:56:04 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Just depends on what printer they are
11:56:13 printed on.
11:56:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If you want them in color, we got them in
11:56:16 >> If you want them in color we'll transmit them in color.
11:56:19 >>MARY MULHERN: And I don't think it has to be done a week
11:56:23 in advance.
11:56:24 What everyone wants is fine.
11:56:26 But what Mr. Miranda brought up, which was at our workshop,
11:56:31 was that we need it in the same box.
11:56:36 So if you do have new material on the night of the hearing,
11:56:42 which happens very often because things happen over a week's
11:56:46 time, you are meeting with those petitioners in the
11:56:49 afternoon before a meeting, that they come in a folder or
11:56:54 envelope or a binder together so we don't have to do all
11:56:57 this separating out.
11:57:00 >> But the last-minute changes.
11:57:07 If we could get with Marty --
11:57:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Collating is fine.
11:57:11 I'm sorry to interrupt.
11:57:11 But to have it collated --
11:57:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We are getting so scientific, and we are
11:57:17 set to recess.
11:57:21 All right.
11:57:21 I have a motion but I don't have a second.
11:57:23 >>MARY MULHERN: If you amend your motion --
11:57:27 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If you have a friendly amendment to that,
11:57:28 bring it.
11:57:29 >>MARY MULHERN: The.
11:57:33 >>LISA MONTELIONE: The clerk has asked that we make the
11:57:35 motion clearly so we'll start oh all over.
11:57:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Start over.
11:57:38 Three minutes.
11:57:39 >>HARRY COHEN: I just want to ask a question.
11:57:41 Because I agree with something that Councilwoman Mulhern
11:57:44 just said.
11:57:45 I'm all for doing it this way.
11:57:47 But we all know that almost every one of these items has
11:57:51 last-minute changes that attach to it.
11:57:53 The whole process is that up until five minutes before we
11:57:56 are starting there is, you know, all sorts of things going
11:57:59 So I think that we should just recognize that having
11:58:04 everything in advance, the one complication with that is in
11:58:09 reality there are still going to be changes and then they
11:58:12 are going to have to reprint it in and out some cases.
11:58:15 In some cases maybe not.
11:58:17 But if everyone is willing to be flexible about that then I
11:58:21 think it's a good way to go.
11:58:22 >>LISA MONTELIONE: By our code -- and I think Mrs. Coyle is
11:58:26 about to say this -- by our code, last-minute changes to the
11:58:29 site plan are not permitted.
11:58:30 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I'm a little confused only because I --
11:58:35 >>LISA MONTELIONE: The aerial does not change and the
11:58:37 zoning map does not change.
11:58:39 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The final site plan is required to be
11:58:42 turned in within 30 days of the meeting and that is what the
11:58:45 staff report is from and that is what the site plan is
11:58:48 If there are last minute changes it might be something hang
11:58:51 in the process that's actually not supposed to happen.
11:58:53 >>HARRY COHEN: We all know people come in here and they
11:58:57 stand at the positive podium and say, now what, it's not
11:59:00 what you have in front of you now, we are going to do a
11:59:04 brief overhaul.
11:59:06 >>CATHERINE COYLE: But you do not have to accept that.
11:59:08 What is in the record is the staff report that's been
11:59:10 It's up to you to say, no, what we have in the record is the
11:59:14 case that has been reviewed by staff and you can immediately
11:59:16 say, okay, you are going to be continued.
11:59:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's exactly what I have been saying
11:59:20 for a long time because they know what they want but they
11:59:23 don't ask for that and hopefully they can get it.
11:59:25 Once they realize they can't get it then they want to
11:59:28 I can't bargain.
11:59:29 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Keep in mind, about seven or eight years
11:59:33 ago, even you, Mrs. Mulhern, we changed the rezoning
11:59:38 process, because I literally was at the hearing for 20
11:59:44 cases, three times a month.
11:59:46 So we fixed it so there are benchmarks F.the applicant
11:59:50 misses their mark they automatically get continued.
11:59:53 They don't get settled for hearing.
11:59:55 If they miss any one of their marks and a date certain, and
12:00:00 we issue the report and that's it, if they come with
12:00:02 something different at the hearing, we can't stop them -- we
12:00:06 can't stop them, but you certainly can.
12:00:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have got one minute left before noon,
12:00:11 then I am going to ask for a continuation.
12:00:13 Okay, I need a continuation.
12:00:15 How many minutes do you want?
12:00:17 >>HARRY COHEN: I move to continue to 12:30.
12:00:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The clerk needs two minutes for a
12:00:22 personal reason.
12:00:26 Ms. Mulhern will be the last one.
12:00:28 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
12:00:32 Well, I'll speak after the two-minute recess.
12:00:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: With council's permission I order a
12:00:37 two-minute recess and please make it only 120 second.
12:00:41 Recess for 120 seconds.
12:00:59 >>> (Recess)
12:03:02 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.
12:03:04 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.
12:03:06 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
12:03:07 >>HARRY COHEN: Here.
12:03:08 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Here.
12:03:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
12:03:10 Ms. Mulhern?
12:03:11 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
12:03:16 On the motion, did you clarify the motion?
12:03:20 >>LISA MONTELIONE: No.
12:03:20 I have to start all over again.
12:03:22 >>MARY MULHERN: Then let me -- what if I suggest my
12:03:27 amendment, and you can add it when you make your motion?
12:03:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let's make the motion and then the
12:03:33 That's the process.
12:03:34 Mrs. Montelione.
12:03:35 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Okay.
12:03:41 I would request that our zoning administrator transmit the
12:03:48 packages for zoning hearings a week in advance in order for
12:03:57 council to review the hearings scheduled.
12:04:02 Those packets would be ordered and collated by application,
12:04:12 but would not include -- would include in color the aerial
12:04:22 and the zoning map --
12:04:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: That's the digital version.
12:04:28 The only paper would you get is the site plan.
12:04:30 That's the only piece you get paper is the site plan.
12:04:33 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Okay.
12:04:36 So a week in advance, zoning administrator would deliver the
12:04:40 correct number of site plans to council chambers, and they
12:04:49 would be in order of the agenda for that evening.
12:04:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: What's the amendment?
12:04:59 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm fine with that. I thought we were
12:05:01 already doing.
12:05:01 That it might not happen a week in advance but they are in
12:05:03 there as soon as they are available.
12:05:06 >>CATHERINE COYLE: What we do at the hearing is the
12:05:08 original -- we are trying to cut down --
12:05:11 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay. That's great.
12:05:12 I am going to request, because I believe this is what all of
12:05:19 us on council agreed to at our strategic planning session,
12:05:24 that all materials by agenda item or zoning number on the
12:05:31 night of the meeting, or the day of the meeting, are
12:05:37 collated together in seven packets.
12:05:44 This is what I am adding, because I believe that's what Mr.
12:05:48 Miranda had asked for in the first place.
12:05:55 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I have got --
12:06:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Hold it.
12:06:00 You have to be somewhere.
12:06:01 Let's go.
12:06:02 >>MARY MULHERN: Seven collated packets.
12:06:06 They can be in a folder, in an envelope, in a binder, for
12:06:09 each council person, for each item that we are going to
12:06:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, what she's saying is --
12:06:19 >>MARY MULHERN: We get piles of -- what is it you call
12:06:26 >> We may not get a site plan but we get revisions to the
12:06:30 site plans.
12:06:30 Revision sheets, and we get probably -- there is maybe new
12:06:37 Whatever new information there is --
12:06:40 >>CATHERINE COYLE: What we give to you at the hearing three
12:06:43 copies of the site plan, seven copies of an aerial, seven
12:06:46 copies of the zoning map, seven copies of the revision
12:06:51 With the site plan --
12:06:52 >>MARY MULHERN: Wee right. We want those collated as an
12:06:55 item number, a zoning number.
12:06:56 >> The week before when we deliver the one site plan --
12:06:59 >>MARY MULHERN: That's not going to happen.
12:07:01 You need to do both.
12:07:02 You need to do it the week before and you need to do
12:07:05 whatever you are giving us on the night of the meeting needs
12:07:07 to be collated.
12:07:09 So we don't have -- if you want --
12:07:14 >> That's fine but the cost is going to be borne by the
12:07:18 They only turn in so many site plans.
12:07:20 So we'll have to increase the number, which we can do.
12:07:23 >>HARRY COHEN: Let me see if I can just sum this up.
12:07:28 I think she's not asking for additional site plan.
12:07:32 Provide us with backup material before one of these
12:07:35 Generally they are tabbed by agenda number.
12:07:37 All she's asking is that when we get the revision sheets and
12:07:41 the last-minute additions to the agenda on the night of the
12:07:43 hearing that it be given to us one time in one packet, just
12:07:47 in the order that the items are going to be heard
12:07:51 rather than end handed out throughout the meeting.
12:07:53 That's all.
12:07:54 >>MARY MULHERN: (off microphone) Each agenda item is
12:07:58 stapled together, binded close together, in a folder, in an
12:08:02 If you can't understand that, I'm really sorry.
12:08:04 That was my addition to the motion.
12:08:07 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I understand what you are asking for.
12:08:08 I am trying to nail down the piece thaws want collated.
12:08:11 >>MARY MULHERN: Everything that is coming in the night of
12:08:15 the meeting needs to be collated so council members get --
12:08:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm not going to listen.
12:08:23 Now I am going get in.
12:08:24 I have two conversations going at once.
12:08:26 I have two ears.
12:08:28 But I want one conversation at a time.
12:08:29 Both of you.
12:08:31 Now let's go.
12:08:32 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We would be happy to provide you in
12:08:36 order the revision sheet.
12:08:38 We will be transmitting the aerials and the zoning map which
12:08:42 do not change a week before or the day before.
12:08:44 We'll transmit those with the staff reports, the week before
12:08:47 the staff reports do come out the week before.
12:08:50 Those will come electronically.
12:08:51 So the night of the hearing if that's when you want them, we
12:08:54 can submit in order the revision sheet, bound, each one of
12:08:58 you, that's fine.
12:08:59 We typically only do the three site plans because the
12:09:02 applicant is providing the site plans, so we would only give
12:09:05 you three.
12:09:06 If you want seven, we'll have to ask for an additional four.
12:09:09 That was my point. That's all my point is.
12:09:12 That one piece of it is whether or not they provide more or
12:09:17 >>MARY MULHERN: The site plan is now coming a week early?
12:09:23 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We have always delivered one.
12:09:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am going to tell you right now it's
12:09:25 12:09. I am going to stop this at 12:11. We have two
12:09:30 >> May I make a suggestion? There is one copy of the site
12:09:33 plan that's now delivered to council.
12:09:35 Council can individually go in there and review the site
12:09:41 And as part of the process to expedite things, if you can
12:09:44 have those three site plans, just as any other way collated.
12:09:48 >> That's what I was offering at the very beginning.
12:09:51 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And then they can -- you can have the site
12:09:54 plan passed out each time.
12:09:56 And I can have them all in front of me.
12:09:58 So when the next item comes up, if the petition number, the
12:10:02 item number, if they are all collated, ready to be passed
12:10:05 out, I can expedite them.
12:10:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I believe we need nine copies, not seven.
12:10:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, nine copies of anything with the
12:10:12 exception of the site plan which there are only three by for
12:10:15 the most part unless council members want to individually
12:10:18 retain them, I give them back to land development at the end
12:10:21 of the night, the ones that I can collect.
12:10:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand.
12:10:25 All right.
12:10:27 I had a motion originally.
12:10:28 The maker is not here.
12:10:29 But I do have that motion on the floor.
12:10:31 I do have a second.
12:10:32 >>MARY MULHERN: I second it if we are clear.
12:10:35 Are we clear, Debby?
12:10:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, we are not clear.
12:10:39 The maker of the motion -- what am I doing here with all of
12:10:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: May I make a suggestion?
12:10:47 That all items for evening meetings be collated and put in
12:10:51 the order on the agenda and passed out to the council at the
12:10:55 start of the meeting.
12:10:56 >> This is the motion, my amendment of the motion.
12:11:03 I am restating.
12:11:05 All items that are available on the night of the meeting are
12:11:11 collated by agenda item number.
12:11:19 There will be eight, nine -- is there one for the clerk,
12:11:22 too? How many do we need?
12:11:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Usually nine are passed out.
12:11:27 >>MARY MULHERN: Nine copies with all material that is being
12:11:32 delivered to us on the night of the meeting, collated by
12:11:36 agenda number, except for this three site plans which don't
12:11:41 have to be, and that's it.
12:11:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mrs. Mulhern, seconded
12:11:48 by Mr. Reddick.
12:11:49 Further discussion?
12:11:50 Before do it, anyone in the public care to speak on what we
12:11:53 spoke on because this is a hearing.
12:11:55 Let's go.
12:11:56 If you are going to speak, let's speak.
12:11:57 All in favor of the motion indicate by saying aye.
12:11:59 Opposed nay. The ayes have it unanimously.
12:12:02 How are we going to take care of number 4?
12:12:05 >>HARRY COHEN: I would like to a make a motion that we do
12:12:07 not discuss number 4 today.
12:12:09 There's already a staff scheduled for June 6th that will
12:12:12 address this item.
12:12:13 So I just move for a continuance.
12:12:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Defer this item to June 6th.
12:12:17 I have a motion by Mr. Cohen. A second by Mrs. Mulhern.
12:12:22 Anyone to speak on the transfer of this item to June
12:12:26 I see no one.
12:12:27 All in favor of the motion at 9 a.m. in the morning of the
12:12:30 year 2013.
12:12:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Under staff reports.
12:12:34 >> Under staff reports.
12:12:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: All in favor?
12:12:38 The ayes have it unanimously.
12:12:40 Information reports by council members?
12:12:41 Mr. Suarez?
12:12:42 Mr. Reddick?
12:12:43 Ms. Mulhern?
12:12:44 Mr. Cohen?
12:12:46 Need a motion to receive and file all the documents.
12:12:49 All in favor of the motion indicate by saying aye.
12:12:52 Opposed nay.
12:12:52 We stand adjourned until 5:01.
12:12:55 Please be here at 5:01. Thank you very much.
This file represents an unedited version of realtime
captioning which should neither be relied upon for complete
accuracy nor used as a verbatim transcript.
The original of this file was produced in all capital
letters and any variation thereto may be a result of third
party edits and software compatibility issues.
Any person who needs a verbatim transcript of the
proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.