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09:18:47 TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
09:18:47 THURSDAY, MARCH 1, 2007
09:18:47 9:00 A.M. SESSION
09:18:47
09:18:47 DISCLAIMER:
09:18:47 The following represents an unedited version of
09:18:47 realtime captioning which should neither be relied
09:18:47 upon for complete accuracy nor used as a verbatim
09:18:47 transcript.
09:18:47 The original of this transcript was produced in all
09:18:47 capital letters and any variation thereto may be a
09:18:47 result of third party edits and software compatibility
09:18:47 issues.
09:18:47 Any person who needs a verbatim transcript of the
09:18:47 proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.
09:18:47
09:18:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.
09:27:53 The chair will yield to Ms. Mary Alvarez.
09:27:56 >>MARY ALVAREZ: It's my pleasure to introduce Tommy
09:28:00 Castellano.
09:28:05 Tommy is the West Tampa Chamber of Commerce president
09:28:08 for the next two years.
09:28:09 He's also president of the Castellano Air Conditioning
09:28:10 and Heating.
09:28:16 He's a national award recipient for 2006 for the
09:28:19 Residential Contractors of America.
09:28:20 He's president of the Air Conditioning Contractors of

09:28:23 America, the Florida chapter.
09:28:24 He's married for 38 years.
09:28:29 He has two children and three grandchildren, and he's
09:28:30 also my nephew.
09:28:32 Please stand for the invocation and pledge.
09:28:37 >> Madam Chair, City Council, welcome citizens.
09:28:40 Thank you for this opportunity to be here today and do
09:28:44 this great honor, because after being married 38
09:28:47 years, it's very rare that I ever get a chance to say
09:28:50 anything.
09:28:51 [ LAUGHTER ]
09:28:52 As a matter of fact, when I told my wife I was giving
09:28:55 the invocation, I was a little worried.
09:28:58 I told her I wanted to do a good time and I talk with
09:29:02 my hands.
09:29:02 What do I do with my hands?
09:29:04 She said put them over your mouth.
09:29:06 I found a prayer for leaders.
09:29:08 It was written by Lillian Cox.
09:29:10 I found it in the Complete Book of Christian Prayer.
09:29:13 I thought I should mention that, and let us pray.
09:29:16 King of kings, Lord of lords, we pray today for

09:29:22 community leaders.
09:29:24 May they be quiet in spirit, clear in judgment, and
09:29:28 able to understand the issues that face them.
09:29:33 May they think often of the people whose behalf they
09:29:37 speak and act.
09:29:38 Grant them patience, grant them courage, grant them
09:29:41 foresight and great faith.
09:29:44 And their anxieties, you God, be their security and
09:29:49 their opportunities, you God, be their inspiration.
09:29:52 By their plans and their actions, may your kingdom
09:29:56 come, thy will be done.
09:29:58 Amen.
09:29:59 [pledge of Allegiance]
09:30:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:30:17 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Here.
09:30:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:30:19 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Here.
09:30:21 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Here.
09:30:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:30:24 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.
09:30:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:30:26 At this time, we have a presentation by

09:30:27 Mr. Dingfelder.
09:30:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Coach Weiner is becoming a regular
09:30:46 for this Council and for good reason.
09:30:48 We're here to honor coach Robert Weiner and the plant
09:30:53 high football team.
09:30:55 And boy, what an exciting year it was.
09:30:59 Coach, the whole city is just so proud of you and
09:31:03 Plant High School and what this has done for South
09:31:06 Tampa and the whole city and just boosted and elevated
09:31:10 our spirits with your state championship.
09:31:13 But before we talk about the team and all, and you,
09:31:17 coach, you know, I have to relay a little story.
09:31:21 I had taught for three years and took off from
09:31:25 practicing law, as you know.
09:31:27 When I did, that was about seven or eight years ago.
09:31:30 Now the kids that I taught in middle school are now in
09:31:33 college and they are finishing up college.
09:31:35 Sometimes I run into them in the street, the grocery
09:31:37 store, whatever, and some of the highlights of my life
09:31:40 is when they come up to me and they say, you know,
09:31:44 Mr. Dingfelder, you made a big impact on my life.
09:31:47 Now I'm in college and that sort of thing.

09:31:50 It just gives you chills.
09:31:56 80 kids on your team and when they came down here to
09:31:59 celebrate with all of us that day after the
09:32:01 championship and the way they looked at you, I know
09:32:05 the difference that you've made in -- those 80 lives
09:32:11 for sure but probably every kid in that school.
09:32:14 It's mind-boggling, and I encourage any young person
09:32:18 to go into teaching because it's a tremendously
09:32:20 rewarding field.
09:32:22 Maybe not financially, but definitely emotionally and
09:32:27 where it counts.
09:32:28 Anyway, we wanted to recognize you once again for you
09:32:32 not only won the state championship but for the second
09:32:35 year in a row, Jim tells me you won coach of the year
09:32:38 award from the state.
09:32:40 So here's our commendation.
09:32:41 I'll read it as follows.
09:32:43 This is to coach Robert Weiner, the plant high
09:32:46 football team.
09:32:47 The plant high football team made all of Tampa proud
09:32:50 when captured the class 4-A state championship a few
09:32:54 months ago in dramatic fashion on its way to 15-0

09:33:00 season.
09:33:01 When the story of plant's -- but the story of plant's
09:33:05 success goes back three years ago when coach Weiner
09:33:09 arrived on the scene.
09:33:10 You inherited a team that went one and nine the year
09:33:13 before.
09:33:13 You led the panthers to three and seven record and
09:33:15 then nine and three record before this year's
09:33:17 undefeated championship season.
09:33:19 You developed a team built on togetherness, and that
09:33:22 was so evident to all of us who saw you play and saw
09:33:26 you be together afterwards.
09:33:28 Time and again, different players would step up when
09:33:30 called upon to make key plays.
09:33:32 The five-game post-season run to the championship
09:33:35 after the undefeated regular season is one that
09:33:37 residents of South Tampa will never forget.
09:33:39 The game-saving tackle made by Luke to win the state
09:33:43 title game when it looked as if victory might be
09:33:46 slipping away.
09:33:47 Quarterback Robert driving the team down to the
09:33:50 winning score in the game's final three minutes with a

09:33:54 touchdown pass to Derrick culminated a season that
09:33:56 earned you the title -- that earned Robert the title
09:33:59 of Mr. Florida football and you the title of coach of
09:34:02 the year.
09:34:04 Tampa City Council is pleased to commend Plant High
09:34:06 School and every one of its players for showing a
09:34:09 willingness to pay the price and having the
09:34:11 determination to succeed.
09:34:12 They made their school and our entire community proud.
09:34:16 Go plant, go panthers.
09:34:18 [ APPLAUSE ]
09:34:24 >> Thank you all very much.
09:34:25 I would like to really thank the Council for having me
09:34:28 out again today.
09:34:31 We've had so many events recently that I can't bring
09:34:34 any players anymore.
09:34:36 We have to get them in school for a little while.
09:34:39 It's been wonderful, though.
09:34:42 Just hearing how the community has rallied behind us
09:34:45 and John has been with us all the way supporting us.
09:34:49 We appreciate that, as all of you have.
09:34:52 I just want to say, John mentioned that the profession

09:34:54 of teaching, and I think that's what we all do
09:34:57 regardless if our classroom is in a building, room or
09:35:02 field, we have so many great teachers and coaches
09:35:05 throughout Hillsborough County that could easily be
09:35:06 standing here.
09:35:07 I stand here because I had tremendous, tremendous kids
09:35:11 who kept making great football plays over and over and
09:35:14 over again and I have tremendous assistant football
09:35:17 coaches.
09:35:17 I stand here representing them.
09:35:19 And really, we might all understand, whether it's in
09:35:22 the city council, whether it's someone's daily job out
09:35:25 somewhere else or whether it's in a classroom or
09:35:28 coaching on a field, perhaps our charge every single
09:35:31 day is find a way to touch and impact somebody else's
09:35:35 life.
09:35:35 Sometimes when we do that, we think we are the ones
09:35:38 doing the reaching out and we find out in the end that
09:35:40 someone else has reached out to us and has changed our
09:35:43 life forever.
09:35:44 That's what has happened on our team.
09:35:47 As a coach, I know that I've been impacted by my

09:35:49 players tenfold as to what they have done for me.
09:35:52 When they learn to do that and interact together,
09:35:56 that's when we learn that we were more than the sum of
09:35:59 our parts and that's when an imperfect team of
09:36:02 imperfect people was able to have a perfect season of
09:36:04 15 and 0 and win a state championship.
09:36:06 Thank you all very much for having us today.
09:36:08 Thank you.
09:36:08 [ APPLAUSE ]
09:36:16 >> Coach, before you leave, USF, USF football program.
09:36:20 I know you have some pretty high-profile players that
09:36:23 are leaving and going to schools that are really high
09:36:25 profile.
09:36:26 But anybody going to USF?
09:36:28 >> Actually, I have a player who was with me in my
09:36:31 first year at plant, Dante spires, who went on to
09:36:35 community college at pearl river community college and
09:36:38 spent two years there.
09:36:39 He's going to go to USF and play linebacker there this
09:36:42 year.
09:36:42 He's an outstanding player.
09:36:44 You talk about young people who have gone through some

09:36:49 difficult circumstances and become outstanding people
09:36:53 as well as outstanding players, I encourage you all to
09:36:57 kind of watch him on the field this year.
09:37:00 6'2", 240-pound linebacker who can run a four-five,
09:37:05 he's a great player.
09:37:06 I can certainly testify to the fact that he's a better
09:37:10 person.
09:37:10 That's a great story to watch out for.
09:37:12 He's our guy we have at USF right now and certainly
09:37:14 will have more in the future.
09:37:19 [ APPLAUSE ]
09:37:24 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to make an announcement
09:37:26 that Council will take a break at 12 p.m. and we will
09:37:29 return at 1:30 p.m.
09:37:31 Council will take a break at 12 and we'll return at
09:37:34 1:30.
09:37:35 We now go to our staff reports.
09:37:39 We have Finney.
09:37:44 >> Jill Finney, Land Development coordination.
09:37:46 I'm here on item number 57.
09:37:49 It is to be scheduled for hearing on April 12th, and
09:37:54 that should be April 26th.

09:37:58 >>MARY ALVAREZ: So moved.
09:38:00 >> Second.
09:38:01 >>GWEN MILLER: When we -- we'll do it when we set the
09:38:04 hearings, changing it to the 26th.
09:38:12 >> Good morning.
09:38:13 Sal, Legal Department.
09:38:15 As it came up this morning, you understand that you'll
09:38:17 be looking at a loan agreement next week.
09:38:20 That will be coming before you.
09:38:22 The CRA will be handling a different issue.
09:38:24 Not the loan agreement.
09:38:26 The City Council has to look at the loan agreement.
09:38:28 The CRA will be looking at an interlocal agreement
09:38:30 between the CRA and City Council to make this loan
09:38:33 agreement work.
09:38:34 Because of the timing, we've had to advertise this
09:38:36 already before coming to you, so I'm coming to you
09:38:39 today asking you if you would set a public hearing for
09:38:42 9:30 next Thursday the 8th to hear the issue on the
09:38:45 loan agreement.
09:38:45 >>MARY ALVAREZ: So moved.
09:38:46 >> Second.

09:38:47 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:38:48 All in favor of the motion, aye.
09:38:50 Opposed, nay.
09:38:50 Thank you.
09:38:52 Mr. David Smith.
09:38:58 >> Good morning.
09:38:58 David Smith, City Attorney.
09:39:00 I wanted to mention an item that we need to bring to
09:39:03 your attention.
09:39:04 On this evening's agenda, you have one item scheduled.
09:39:08 It is the discussion of the JLUS study.
09:39:11 We have a problem.
09:39:13 We have an error with respect to the notice provision.
09:39:15 It is not in order.
09:39:17 Let me give you a little bit of background on that.
09:39:19 There's a lot of participation in this mistake.
09:39:22 I really am not intending to blame anybody, including
09:39:25 the legal to the extent of our participation, but I
09:39:27 think it's important for us to understand a little bit
09:39:29 about what happened so we can try to avoid these
09:39:31 things in the future.
09:39:32 As you may remember, originally, we had a public

09:39:34 hearing set for April 12th, 2007.
09:39:37 There was a workshop and the amendment which was
09:39:40 originally a map amendment was changed to a text
09:39:43 amendment.
09:39:43 And on January 18th, Council requested that we move
09:39:47 that up.
09:39:47 At that point to March 1st, which is today.
09:39:51 That only left us 10 days to provide notice to 2,000
09:39:55 people.
09:39:56 It is incumbent upon us to make sure we're more
09:39:58 emphatic about the difficulties that present and let
09:40:03 Council understand that if that's too short of a time
09:40:05 period, it's too short of a time period.
09:40:08 We'll make sure that doesn't happen again.
09:40:09 I think one of the other issues that's important to
09:40:12 understand is under general law it would not have been
09:40:14 a problem; however, there's a special act and there is
09:40:17 a Planning Commission manual that has been adopted by
09:40:20 resolution by this Council that we have literally a
09:40:24 variety of notice requirements, depending upon the
09:40:27 nature of the action to be taken.
09:40:29 That led to the confusion to the extent all of those

09:40:33 of us who participated in it, we certainly apologize,
09:40:36 certainly for the inconvenience that may cause the
09:40:39 people coming down here this evening.
09:40:40 What we would recommend that you do is, first of all,
09:40:44 we need to renotice it.
09:40:46 And there are three dates we got from the clerk's
09:40:49 office.
09:40:50 The first was April 19th, and we would have to add a
09:40:54 night hearing to do that, because there is no night
09:40:56 hearing on that date.
09:40:57 The second is April 26th.
09:41:00 And unfortunately, on April 26th, Cathy Coyle will
09:41:03 not be here.
09:41:04 As you know, Cathy has been very involved in this
09:41:07 process.
09:41:08 I would probably discourage you from having it on the
09:41:11 26th.
09:41:11 The third date is May 3rd.
09:41:13 And I think that does not suffer from any of the
09:41:16 infirmities of the other two dates.
09:41:20 We do need you to take action on that.
09:41:23 The second thing we recommend you consider doing and

09:41:26 certainly Council's discretion is consider having a
09:41:29 workshop tonight during the scheduled meeting to
09:41:31 receive the input that you otherwise would have
09:41:33 received.
09:41:34 It's our understanding there are some property owners
09:41:37 out there who have some new proposals that probably
09:41:41 need to be articulated, discussed and basically go
09:41:47 through the public forum of that process.
09:41:53 It may be the fairest thing to do for the people who
09:41:56 will be here, not watch TV.
09:41:59 We called some of the people we could.
09:42:00 This came up last minute.
09:42:02 We were notified on the 27th of an objection from a
09:42:05 property owner.
09:42:06 We evaluated it.
09:42:07 We had to look through the various esoteric I
09:42:11 mentioned to you and we were able to determine last
09:42:15 night that was correct.
09:42:16 It was improperly noticed.
09:42:18 I think the important thing for us to do is move
09:42:21 forward as quickly as we can to get it on the agenda
09:42:25 and get it before you and get the public before you

09:42:27 who wants to be heard on that.
09:42:29 The dates were April 19th, adding a night meeting,
09:42:32 April 26th without Cathy, and May 3rd.
09:42:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Alvarez.
09:42:36 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Mr. Smith, since we're probably going
09:42:42 to have a workshop tonight, is there anything that
09:42:45 we're going to vote on in the month of March for this
09:42:48 particular subject?
09:42:50 That you can think of?
09:42:52 >> No, ma'am.
09:42:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think it's important that Cathy
09:42:58 Coyle be in attendance.
09:43:00 I think she's been an integral part of this.
09:43:03 I don't think we should have it when she's not
09:43:05 available.
09:43:05 Based on that, I think we should have it April 19th,
09:43:09 probably.
09:43:12 That would be my motion.
09:43:14 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Second the motion, but I have a
09:43:16 question for David.
09:43:17 David, you're saying just from a legal perspective,
09:43:19 this cannot go forward tonight.

09:43:22 >> Yes, sir, that's correct.
09:43:23 I would like to give Cathy an opportunity to tell you,
09:43:26 if you do go forward tonight, the reason and the
09:43:28 issues she thinks we need to discuss tonight.
09:43:33 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Catherine Coyle, Land Development.
09:43:35 I would like to reiterate that we'll need to bring
09:43:39 back a resolution tonight for you to vote on to
09:43:42 schedule whatever public hearing you will set for
09:43:45 whatever date.
09:43:46 I would strongly encourage that we do move forward
09:43:48 tonight with the workshop mainly to get through the
09:43:50 remaining issues.
09:43:51 I've been dealing the last couple of months with
09:43:54 several hundred people, I would say, directly probably
09:43:57 with about 20 to 25 individual property owners that
09:44:00 have had different issues in the Neighborhood
09:44:02 Associations.
09:44:03 We've really nailed down I'd probably say 95 to
09:44:06 99 percent of the issues.
09:44:08 There are a couple of remaining issues out there that
09:44:11 I would really like you to hear, even though you can't
09:44:14 vote to transmit to the state tonight, I would ask if

09:44:17 we can lock in the language, that you would motion,
09:44:20 you would direct me to bring back that final language
09:44:23 for the transmittal hearing so it would cut down on
09:44:26 the public hearing in April or whenever it occurs.
09:44:29 We can really utilize this workshop tonight to nail
09:44:32 down the issues.
09:44:34 >>FRANK REDDICK: I have a question or a concern.
09:44:39 If we're not going to vote on this item tonight or
09:44:42 this month, and we're looking that we're having a new
09:44:48 Council, is it fair to those who will be serving as
09:44:52 the new Council to be omitted from discussion and
09:44:56 coming in in April and having to vote on an issue that
09:45:00 they had no discussion, particularly for the property
09:45:03 owners, those who want to speak tonight.
09:45:06 I'm just wondering if there's any fairness there and
09:45:09 what disadvantage would you put those individuals in
09:45:13 to the new members of the Council?
09:45:16 >> That's an excellent question and not an easy one to
09:45:18 answer.
09:45:20 My thoughts on that would be, from my observation for
09:45:24 the three years I've been here and, of course, it's
09:45:26 with this Council, although you've had two new people

09:45:29 added, there's a fairly consistent process that's
09:45:32 applied.
09:45:33 And I would expect that a new Council would not vary
09:45:37 very much at all from what this Council will do.
09:45:41 I think this issue has gone through so much give and
09:45:44 take and so much discussion and there's been so much
09:45:48 consensus arrived during this process, that I think
09:45:51 the issues that ultimately are at the call of this
09:45:54 Council are going to be fairly small.
09:45:56 The concern I would have is the concern that the new
09:45:59 Council would not have been a direct beneficiary of
09:46:02 hearing those comments, seeing that passion and
09:46:06 evaluating it first hand.
09:46:08 However, that having been said, this is a workshop.
09:46:13 There will be public hearings.
09:46:13 There will be more opportunity for that same public to
09:46:16 speak to the new Council.
09:46:17 And I think what Cathy is indicating, if she can get
09:46:21 some generic description on some of the main issues,
09:46:24 we can maybe simplify that future public debate
09:46:28 because the public and the property owners in the area
09:46:31 will have, perhaps, narrowed the area of disagreement

09:46:34 and any future Council could have a more focused
09:46:37 discussion and then make a decision based upon the
09:46:39 remaining issues.
09:46:41 That's a very I know wishy-washy answer for you, but I
09:46:45 would think that the workshop would be beneficial and
09:46:49 that the future Council, whether it varies from this
09:46:51 one, I guess it will vary to some extent no matter
09:46:55 what, will not be hamstrung.
09:46:58 >>GWEN MILLER: The information from the workshop
09:46:59 tonight, would it be available for the new Council
09:47:02 members?
09:47:03 Would you give it to them so they could read it?
09:47:06 >>DAVID SMITH: Yes, ma'am.
09:47:07 And we recommend it be televised, and we will have it
09:47:10 taped.
09:47:11 I would imagine most candidates that are not currently
09:47:13 here, if they are at all prudent, I'm sure they are,
09:47:17 will be watching anyway.
09:47:19 But we'll have it available for them.
09:47:22 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:47:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I would request that the motion be
09:47:30 that the Legal Department come back with a resolution

09:47:32 tonight setting the public hearing for the
09:47:34 April 19th.
09:47:35 At what time, I don't recall.
09:47:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think 6:00 is easier for people
09:47:40 to get down here.
09:47:45 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It's Council's discretion.
09:47:48 But it should be done by resolution and the Legal
09:47:49 Department will be able to bring to Council at
09:47:52 tonight's workshop for action, to be able to set the
09:47:55 public hearing formally, if that's Council's wish.
09:48:01 >>GWEN MILLER: That was your motion.
09:48:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: April 19th at 6:00.
09:48:04 I think that makes it easier.
09:48:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:48:08 All in favor, aye.
09:48:09 Opposed, nay.
09:48:09 [Motion Carried]
09:48:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The other issue, Council, is with
09:48:12 regard to tonight's hearing, does Council wish to then
09:48:17 convert it on the same subject matter to a workshop?
09:48:21 And still continue to hold it?
09:48:23 In other words, tonight, it cannot be heard as it's

09:48:27 presently set because of the misnotice.
09:48:29 >>MARY ALVAREZ: I move to set the workshop for
09:48:30 tonight.
09:48:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
09:48:31 >>GWEN MILLER: 6:00.
09:48:36 >> It's set for 5:30.
09:48:37 I suggest you keep the time the same.
09:48:39 >>GWEN MILLER: We just made a motion to do it at 6:00.
09:48:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That was April 19th.
09:48:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second tonight to
09:48:45 have a workshop tonight at 5:30.
09:48:47 All in favor of the motion, aye.
09:48:49 Opposed, nay.
09:48:49 [Motion Carried]
09:48:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If the clerk would like to post it
09:48:56 downstairs, it's on the same subject matter.
09:48:58 It will be held as a workshop instead.
09:49:01 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to the approval of the agenda.
09:49:03 Anything on the agenda we need to pull?
09:49:06 Anybody like to pull an item from the agenda?
09:49:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I have two items, I believe.
09:49:11 I don't know if the clerk wishes to address it, but I

09:49:13 believe there was a memorandum from the administration
09:49:15 today on number 43 regarding the amendment, resolution
09:49:24 2006 -- excuse me, amending resolution 2006-1444, they
09:49:29 are asking that it be removed from the agenda.
09:49:31 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion.
09:49:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
09:49:34 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second to withdraw
09:49:36 item 43.
09:49:37 All in favor, aye.
09:49:39 [Motion Carried]
09:49:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe there was a memo to Council
09:49:43 from Julia Cole requesting 60 days on item number 6.
09:49:47 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:49:49 All in favor, aye.
09:49:50 [Motion Carried]
09:49:50 Anything else?
09:49:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to accept the agenda with
09:49:55 those changes.
09:49:56 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion, aye.
09:49:57 [Motion Carried]
09:49:58 Now we go to unfinished business, item number 2.
09:50:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, I understand -- we

09:50:05 had a workshop on this meeting that was very
09:50:07 interesting.
09:50:08 But we had a request from S.W.F.W.M.D. that the peer
09:50:12 review, which has just been completed, be presented to
09:50:15 their board before we have this general discussion
09:50:17 before Council.
09:50:18 Therefore, I would like to make a motion to reschedule
09:50:20 this for March 29th and that the participants be the
09:50:29 S.W.F.W.M.D., Dr. Kelly, the Environmental Protection
09:50:34 Commission, which is Tony D'Aquila, Tampa Estuary
09:50:39 Program, Dick Eckenrod, and the Department of
09:50:41 Environmental Protection to discuss minimum flows.
09:50:43 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:50:45 All in favor, aye.
09:50:46 [Motion Carried]
09:50:48 >>MARY ALVAREZ: 10:00?
09:50:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Unfinished business.
09:50:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, it's going to be a pretty big
09:50:53 discussion.
09:50:54 I'd rather say 10:00.
09:50:55 With the idea that perhaps we even say 11:00 and
09:50:58 actually start it then.

09:51:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The question I have for Council is
09:51:02 that normally your second readings are scheduled as
09:51:05 public hearings for 9:30.
09:51:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think 11:00 would be more
09:51:08 prudent.
09:51:08 Thank you, Mr. Shelby.
09:51:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Would that be a time certain?
09:51:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: 11:00 time certain, because we are
09:51:15 bringing in these other experts to speak to us.
09:51:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
09:51:18 We have a motion and second.
09:51:19 All in favor, aye.
09:51:20 Opposed, nay.
09:51:21 Item number 3.
09:51:24 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Good morning, Council.
09:51:26 Catherine Coyle, Land Development.
09:51:27 You motioned for us to appear.
09:51:29 You had requested us to examine the fees charged for
09:51:32 conditional uses with an eye toward lowering the fees
09:51:36 of those conditional uses.
09:51:38 We do concur with you at looking at that item, and we
09:51:42 will to figure out the most effective way to do that.

09:51:45 Keep in mind conditional uses you only get maybe one
09:51:47 or two a year.
09:51:48 It's not necessarily an urgency to evaluate that
09:51:51 immediately, but we do plan to look at that item to
09:51:54 figure out a way to make sure that it is cost
09:51:56 effective for the city doing that application as well
09:51:59 as making it a fair process and fee for the public.
09:52:04 >>MARY ALVAREZ: I really thank you for that, Cathy,
09:52:07 because it's not fair.
09:52:08 It's really not fair that they come back and they pay
09:52:11 the fees like they were doing a new case.
09:52:13 So I really thank you for that.
09:52:15 >>CATHERINE COYLE: No problem.
09:52:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:52:17 Item number 4.
09:52:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm sorry.
09:52:21 I need clarification.
09:52:22 So where are we with that?
09:52:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We will be looking at that fee.
09:52:29 We do concur with you that the conditional use needs
09:52:32 to be looked at for that renewal of it.
09:52:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do you think 30 days or 60 days is

09:52:37 reasonable? Move --
09:52:42 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I do have to go through the entire
09:52:44 fee analysis to figure out.
09:52:45 I have to make sure we cover our costs and then
09:52:48 evaluate that internally with the administration.
09:52:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want you to do a thorough job.
09:52:52 I just feel like if we don't put it back on our agenda
09:52:55 for a specific time, it kind of drifts.
09:52:57 Is 120 days better?
09:52:59 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Can I ask for 120 days just to be
09:53:03 sure.
09:53:03 I need to vet that internally as well.
09:53:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Make a motion that the city staff
09:53:07 report back in 120 days on the issue.
09:53:10 Do you need a specific date, city clerk?
09:53:12 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:53:13 All in favor, aye.
09:53:14 [Motion Carried]
09:53:15 Item 4.
09:53:17 Anyone here from the police department?
09:53:20 Item 4.
09:53:21 We need to receive and file the memorandum.

09:53:25 We have a motion and second.
09:53:26 All in favor, aye.
09:53:27 [Motion Carried]
09:53:27 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Madam Chair, if I could just bring to
09:53:30 your attention, and Council is somewhat very specific
09:53:33 in the making of the motion.
09:53:39 Sometimes reports are requested and personal
09:53:40 appearances are requested.
09:53:41 I don't know how -- what the intention of Council was,
09:53:44 but it was for the police department to appear and
09:53:46 provide a report.
09:53:47 >>MARY ALVAREZ: I can answer that.
09:53:49 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That's fine.
09:53:50 I just wanted to bring it to your attention.
09:53:52 >>MARY ALVAREZ: I had a phone call from assistant
09:53:55 chief castor, and she told me about it.
09:53:59 Said it was very clear out there that there's no more
09:54:01 prostitution.
09:54:02 So I said just send me a written report on it, and
09:54:05 that's what she did.
09:54:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You are the public safety chair and
09:54:09 if that's the prerogative.

09:54:11 >>MARY ALVAREZ: That's right.
09:54:11 And I made the motion.
09:54:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I just wanted it to be clear so when
09:54:15 Council does give direction or request of the
09:54:18 administration, that it's clear on the agenda.
09:54:19 >>MARY ALVAREZ: They had taken care of it.
09:54:22 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 5.
09:54:24 Anybody here from the administration?
09:54:27 Talk about the marina?
09:54:30 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: They contacted me, since it was my
09:54:32 motion, and asked for a continuance of this issue.
09:54:35 I'm just trying to remember what date they wanted
09:54:40 Marjorie Park continued.
09:54:42 Let's let it slide for a few minutes and then we'll
09:54:46 check and see what date they want to continue it to.
09:54:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
09:54:49 Item number 7.
09:54:52 >> What happened to item 6?
09:54:53 >>GWEN MILLER: We already did it.
09:54:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Put it off for 60 days.
09:54:58 Madam Chairman, I have spoken with the administration
09:55:00 about this.

09:55:00 This was my motion.
09:55:01 They requested two weeks to the 15th.
09:55:04 I move we reschedule this for the 15th.
09:55:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:55:08 All in favor, aye.
09:55:09 [Motion Carried]
09:55:09 Item number 8.
09:55:14 Mr. Hart.
09:55:15 >> Good morning, Council, Gregory Hart, manager of
09:55:18 minority business development office.
09:55:20 I have a very brief update for you on the disparity
09:55:23 study task force meeting to review the
09:55:27 recommendations.
09:55:28 The task force continues to assemble -- the last
09:55:31 meeting is projected to be next week.
09:55:33 Afterwards, the intent is to incorporate the
09:55:37 information that we gain from the stakeholder review
09:55:41 process into development of a program ordinance for
09:55:44 consideration.
09:55:46 And, of course, drafting of that ordinance will be
09:55:49 presented and reviewed and processed by the task force
09:55:53 before it's presented to you, City Council.

09:55:55 So based upon these next final action steps, I should
09:55:59 have a completed product for you in your consideration
09:56:03 in early to mid April.
09:56:07 >>GWEN MILLER: What progress is the advisory board
09:56:09 doing?
09:56:09 Doing a great job or what?
09:56:11 >> Doing a great job, I would say.
09:56:13 They've been providing very direct and substantive
09:56:16 input based on their experience in our procurement and
09:56:18 contract processes.
09:56:19 So I believe it's been pretty good.
09:56:21 >>FRANK REDDICK: Mr. Hart, how many meetings do you
09:56:25 have left with the task force?
09:56:29 >> We have one scheduled meeting, sir.
09:56:32 And we hope to wrap things up with the next meeting.
09:56:34 >>FRANK REDDICK: Okay.
09:56:35 Well, let me just thank you, one, for placing it in
09:56:39 the newspaper where it can be read for those who live
09:56:43 in that part of town.
09:56:45 Secondly, it's my understanding that with the report
09:56:51 that I received that the consultant recommendation
09:56:57 that you're reviewing with the task force, I think

09:57:01 there were 20 recommendations.
09:57:02 >> It's well over 30 recommendations.
09:57:04 >>FRANK REDDICK: 30 recommendations.
09:57:06 And comments I received is that the process is going
09:57:09 very, very slow with the task force, with even getting
09:57:13 through the recommendation or even considering coming
09:57:17 up with their own recommendation.
09:57:21 Could you explain if the process is very slow, can you
09:57:25 tell me why?
09:57:27 Or what are your plans with coming up with a
09:57:29 recommendation?
09:57:31 I understand some of the members of the task force are
09:57:33 having a problem with the process.
09:57:35 >> If, in fact, the process is slow, it's primarily
09:57:38 due to the fact that there are well over 30
09:57:41 recommendations, and we are presenting those
09:57:43 recommendations individually and independently to the
09:57:46 task force so that they can digest it and consider
09:57:51 that recommendation, provide us with the necessary
09:57:54 feedback.
09:57:54 And we're only convening for about an hour and a half
09:57:58 for the meeting process, so that may be the primary

09:58:02 reason why the process is taking very long.
09:58:07 >>FRANK REDDICK: In that case, do you feel that you
09:58:09 might need to extend the number of meetings that you
09:58:12 are having in order to -- in order to review those
09:58:17 recommendations?
09:58:18 I do not believe you'll be able to accomplish this
09:58:21 with one more meeting left before you submit a report.
09:58:23 So do you feel it's necessary to extend some of those,
09:58:28 at least a few more meetings in order that you go
09:58:31 through the recommendations prior to presenting the
09:58:33 report?
09:58:33 >> That's quite possible, sir.
09:58:35 As a matter of fact, we are taking the lead from the
09:58:37 task force, and they have expressed some interest, if
09:58:40 necessary, to extend our meetings.
09:58:43 And we'll know whether that's going to be necessary
09:58:45 after our next meeting.
09:58:46 So we are definitely taking that into consideration.
09:58:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Harrison.
09:58:51 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Thank you.
09:58:52 Thank you, Mr. Reddick, for your leadership on the
09:58:55 issue.

09:58:55 This isn't really related to the disparity study, per
09:58:58 se, but has the task force considered anything along
09:59:02 the lines of a rollback of occupational taxes for WMBE
09:59:11 businesses, especially those located in East Tampa?
09:59:17 Every business in town pays an occupational tax.
09:59:19 What this would be, would be a rollback for the small
09:59:24 WMBE businesses that are located in East Tampa to, you
09:59:27 know, help them with a little kick start.
09:59:30 >> Great idea.
09:59:31 >> No, sir, that issue has not been raised by the task
09:59:34 force as of yet.
09:59:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Consider it raised.
09:59:38 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, Mr. Reddick that might be
09:59:40 something you want to take and run with.
09:59:41 >>FRANK REDDICK: And I'm up running with it.
09:59:44 Thank you.
09:59:47 Now, how could we discuss that at the next meeting and
09:59:50 get this incorporated?
09:59:51 >> I can certainly take your comments and make them
09:59:54 aware that they've been expressed by the Council and
09:59:58 get their reaction.
09:59:59 Keep in mind, however, that initially and primarily,

10:00:03 we have focused the task force on addressing those
10:00:06 recommendations from the disparity report.
10:00:08 However, they have provided some other comments
10:00:13 outside of the recommendations and we are taking those
10:00:16 and acknowledging them and are going to address them
10:00:19 appropriately.
10:00:20 Whether it be within the disparity study process or
10:00:23 outside that process as you suggested, sir.
10:00:25 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Yeah, I would encourage us to keep
10:00:28 it outside.
10:00:29 You don't want to add more to this process.
10:00:31 It's gone on long enough.
10:00:32 We don't want to add another hurdle.
10:00:35 But as part of or concomitant to that, I think that
10:00:38 would be a great idea.
10:00:39 And I think you would receive widespread support for
10:00:43 that in the WMBE community, especially in East Tampa.
10:00:46 Let's go for it.
10:00:48 >> We'll take that under consideration.
10:00:50 Thank you very much.
10:00:53 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 9.
10:00:56 >> Good morning, City Council, Jorge Martin, Legal

10:00:59 Department.
10:00:59 In response to the motion by Councilman Harrison and
10:01:05 councilman Dingfelder, the City of Tampa does have
10:01:08 jurisdiction to enforce its codes in the area where
10:01:13 the crab shacks are located -- we have a geographic,
10:01:22 which is an aerial photograph --
10:01:25 >>GWEN MILLER: It's not coming through.
10:01:27 Now it's coming through.
10:01:29 >> You'll notice there is a red and an orange
10:01:33 boundary.
10:01:34 The orange boundary is for the boundaries -- 1887.
10:01:38 The red boundaries are the 1911 boundaries of the
10:01:41 city.
10:01:41 That includes a large portion of McKay Bay where the
10:01:45 crab shacks are located.
10:01:47 So it is within city boundary.
10:01:50 It is an area where the city may enforce its code.
10:01:54 We've also looked at the records of the county or the
10:01:58 land records of the county, and we've determined that
10:02:01 there are at least seven parcels where the crab shacks
10:02:06 are located that are -- that appear to be privately
10:02:12 owned.

10:02:13 Despite the fact that they are submerged lands, appear
10:02:15 to be under private ownership.
10:02:19 What codes we can enforce out there, you know, it's
10:02:24 definitely anything that could be covered if we have
10:02:26 any marine structure portion of the code under chapter
10:02:32 five, construction services center could be involved
10:02:35 in that and certainly zoning or housing issues,
10:02:40 although I don't know if there's any out there at this
10:02:42 time could be covered by the Department of Code
10:02:43 Enforcement.
10:02:44 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Thank you, Jorge.
10:02:46 That was an easy answer to what I thought was going to
10:02:48 be a very convoluted question.
10:02:52 You've seen those crab shacks recently?
10:02:54 >> I visited the crab shacks about a week ago with
10:03:00 Mr. Lane and Mr. Doherty.
10:03:05 >>SHAWN HARRISON: They are in a state of disrepair I
10:03:08 don't think would be an accurate statement.
10:03:11 I would get on that right away because I think those
10:03:14 are dangerous.
10:03:15 There are walkways falling apart.
10:03:16 Some of them don't have walkways anymore.

10:03:20 There's no way to get from the land to the actual crab
10:03:22 shack.
10:03:23 Whatever we need to do, I would encourage us to move
10:03:26 fairly aggressively on those, bring those into
10:03:29 compliance.
10:03:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Reddick.
10:03:32 >>FRANK REDDICK: Is it my understanding that you're
10:03:35 saying that city code enforcement has jurisdiction of
10:03:39 monitoring and protecting?
10:03:41 >> City code enforcement can enforce those sections of
10:03:43 the code within their purview.
10:03:45 That would be chapter 19.
10:03:47 That would be the housing of code to the extent that
10:03:50 there may be structures out there that have structural
10:03:53 problems that fall within their code.
10:03:55 They can enforce that.
10:03:57 Also, zoning falls within their purview to the extent
10:04:00 that there's --
10:04:03 >>FRANK REDDICK: Let me ask you a question.
10:04:05 How many citations have been issued to the crab shack,
10:04:10 Mr. Harrison was talking about?
10:04:12 >> I can't tell you that.

10:04:13 But I can tell you this has been a gray area.
10:04:22 Code enforcement tells me they went out there and
10:04:24 found the citations for their department.
10:04:29 Realize they only cover chapters 19 and 27.
10:04:32 That would be zoning and housing.
10:04:35 Now, there may be construction services center which
10:04:37 has possible violations out there.
10:04:41 Other departments enforce other sections of our code.
10:04:44 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Mr. Martin, do they have any
10:04:46 occupational licenses?
10:04:49 >> I did not look into that.
10:04:50 I looked into the question of legal jurisdiction.
10:04:53 As I said, we have enforcement jurisdiction, but I did
10:04:57 not research specific dock citations or problems that
10:05:03 may be out there.
10:05:04 >>MARY ALVAREZ: If they are such disrepair, don't you
10:05:07 think that's a public and welfare issue?
10:05:12 >> Certainly, as I said, the power to enforce is
10:05:17 there.
10:05:17 The inspectors need to go out there.
10:05:19 And each inspector from each particular area with code
10:05:25 powers will have to go out there and make those

10:05:27 determinations.
10:05:28 Certainly one thing that comes to mind from my visit
10:05:31 is there are some fire damage structures there that
10:05:34 may be under some sort of rebuilding and construction
10:05:41 services center may play a role there.
10:05:44 Certainly, the environmental protection groups should
10:05:49 probably also have overlapping jurisdiction out there
10:05:53 because of submerged lands and wetlands.
10:05:56 >>MARY ALVAREZ: The shacks that are fire damaged, are
10:05:59 they in operation?
10:06:00 >> I could not see any that were in operation.
10:06:02 The only one I saw in operation was the shrimp and
10:06:05 fish sales operation towards the western end of the
10:06:13 boulevard.
10:06:16 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to send construction services
10:06:20 out there, environmental, everybody out there.
10:06:24 There are a lot of things that need to be done, so we
10:06:26 need to get on track and get these people out there
10:06:29 and let's get some things done out there.
10:06:31 Mr. Fletcher.
10:06:33 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I want to make sure I understand
10:06:35 this issue.

10:06:35 I have not been out to this area.
10:06:37 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Oh, you need to go.
10:06:38 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I do need to.
10:06:46 Have these little structures that people do things off
10:06:48 of, but if I'm hearing this right, we've got
10:06:52 structures out there that are somewhere between a dock
10:06:57 and a fish house where people do recreational fishing,
10:07:01 is it primarily?
10:07:02 Or are you talking about commercial operation?
10:07:05 >>GWEN MILLER: They sell to the public.
10:07:09 >> The majority of what I saw out there is not being
10:07:11 used right now because there's no connection between
10:07:13 the land and the actual structure, so that there does
10:07:17 not appear to be any use out there.
10:07:19 There is one that definitely has a use.
10:07:22 It's a business that's open for business.
10:07:24 Sells shrimp, fish, anything you might want to get in
10:07:29 the area of seafood.
10:07:31 That's the only one I saw in operation at the time of
10:07:34 our visit with code enforcement.
10:07:36 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: And this is on privately owned
10:07:38 submerged lands.

10:07:39 >> Appears to be privately owned.
10:07:42 There -- we haven't searched title on that.
10:07:45 They appear to be privately owned on the county
10:07:48 records.
10:07:49 >> We're not suggesting we don't necessarily want any
10:07:51 activity to occur there.
10:07:52 We want to make sure they are treated like any other
10:07:55 business.
10:07:55 They get a license.
10:07:56 They come in, meet code and we're actively enforcing
10:07:59 to make sure all the public, health and safety
10:08:03 standards are met.
10:08:09 >>FRANK REDDICK: I'll make a motion that we have
10:08:14 construction services to go out and take a site visit
10:08:18 of the crab shack and make a determination of their
10:08:23 findings to this Council and environmental protection
10:08:32 agency to be included and hopefully we can get a
10:08:36 report back in two weeks.
10:08:40 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Second.
10:08:41 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a question.
10:08:45 >> Mr. Charles from the Port Authority is here.
10:08:48 I don't know if he wants to address the Council at

10:08:49 this point, but he is here.
10:08:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:08:51 We have a motion and second.
10:08:53 All in favor, aye.
10:08:53 [Motion Carried]
10:08:54 Okay.
10:08:55 He wants to come up and address us?
10:08:57 No, from the port, no.
10:09:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to waive the rules to allow
10:09:03 him to come up.
10:09:06 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Second.
10:09:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:09:08 All in favor, aye.
10:09:12 >> I'm Charles, general counsel of the Tampa Port
10:09:14 Authority, I would be glad to answer any questions on
10:09:17 this.
10:09:17 Just in background, the Tampa Port Authority has
10:09:20 permitting jurisdiction just for siting issues.
10:09:22 We actually say this is location of a dock.
10:09:24 We don't get involved in code enforcement.
10:09:26 So code enforcement as far as structure, the way it's
10:09:30 built, the use, the occupational licenses, alcoholic

10:09:34 beverages license, things like that would be the
10:09:36 responsibility of the city.
10:09:37 The only thing we do is say this is the location you
10:09:40 can put the dock, if the applicant is actually the
10:09:45 owner.
10:09:49 Question whether or not some of the submerged land
10:09:51 docks are owned by the private properties or City of
10:09:54 Tampa.
10:09:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:09:55 I'm so glad you are here.
10:09:57 Last week I went down the Hillsborough River to look
10:09:59 at a river overlay zoning that we're considering.
10:10:02 One of the things that we observed is that most boat
10:10:05 docks are just great.
10:10:07 A few of them are really overbearing, every square
10:10:11 foot of the -- they go out in the water and obscure
10:10:14 the neighbors' views, they are not good neighbors.
10:10:18 So I called John Thorington of the dock to say, can
10:10:22 the city create design standards that we're looking
10:10:29 our own overlay, could we have permission to take
10:10:33 responsibility for what is built off these docks on
10:10:37 the Hillsborough River?

10:10:38 And it sounds to me like you're sitting, you're
10:10:40 chatting with the city, but it's not clear whether you
10:10:43 would consider allowing the city to regulate the scale
10:10:48 of the structures that are built in the water, but
10:10:51 it's something that we are interested in doing.
10:10:54 So what I would like to ask is the Port Authority
10:10:57 working with the city's zoning people discuss whose
10:11:00 jurisdiction this is in terms of regulating the scale
10:11:02 of what's built in the river.
10:11:04 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Ms. Saul-Sena, is it the bay or the
10:11:07 river?
10:11:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm talking about the Hillsborough
10:11:09 River.
10:11:09 That's where we're talking about doing river overlay
10:11:14 district.
10:11:14 Just the river.
10:11:14 It wasn't clear.
10:11:17 What I would like to do is have an opportunity to work
10:11:19 with your staff, with the city zoning staff and
10:11:22 clarify this issue, not clarify it like looking
10:11:26 retroactively but toward the future to protect this
10:11:29 marvelous resource that we have and we value so

10:11:31 highly.
10:11:32 >> Actually, it's my understanding that we're meeting
10:11:36 with Herb and perhaps other people from the City of
10:11:38 Tampa next Friday.
10:11:39 This is bob musser.
10:11:40 He's our environmental director.
10:11:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to be invited to that
10:11:48 meeting as a the building and zoning chair.
10:11:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:11:51 Any other questions?
10:11:52 Thank you.
10:11:52 We appreciate that.
10:11:53 Item -- yes, Mr. Reddick.
10:11:59 >>FRANK REDDICK: (Microphone not on).
10:12:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Renee Benton here?
10:12:16 Ms. Saul-Sena, have you talked to Ms. Benton?
10:12:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No, I thought she had been made
10:12:22 aware of this opportunity.
10:12:24 >>GWEN MILLER: A letter was sent to her.
10:12:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, then I'll get back with her
10:12:28 and see if we can reschedule.
10:12:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.

10:12:34 Item number 11, DACCO would like to change their date
10:12:38 and continue to March 15th or the 22nd.
10:12:41 We need a motion on which date.
10:12:43 >>MARY ALVAREZ: 22nd.
10:12:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:12:45 All in favor, aye.
10:12:46 [Motion Carried]
10:12:47 Anyone in the public who would like to ask for
10:12:50 reconsideration of a legislative matter?
10:12:53 Anyone in the public?
10:12:56 We now go to our audience portion.
10:12:58 Is there anyone in the public like to speak on any
10:13:01 item on the agenda not set for a public hearing?
10:13:15 Go ahead.
10:13:16 >> Good morning.
10:13:16 My name is Darlene Guzman.
10:13:21 I am currently the president of the Palmetto Beach
10:13:24 Community Association.
10:13:25 I came to speak on item 9.
10:13:29 And generally, what many residents, their concern is
10:13:34 about these existing and the new structures that are
10:13:40 being built on our bay.

10:13:41 Most of them are, I would say, considered a safety
10:13:44 hazard and an eye sore.
10:13:46 And we would like the city, the Port Authority or
10:13:50 whichever agency that does have jurisdiction over this
10:13:53 to please consider to do something about it.
10:14:01 I have several of my other board members that have
10:14:04 come.
10:14:05 We're going to pass out something that one of our
10:14:10 board members put together for Council to look at, to
10:14:13 have, like, a visual of what we're talking about.
10:14:18 I've lived, you know, in this area all my life.
10:14:21 I love my neighborhood, and I wanted to keep it safe
10:14:26 for everyone.
10:14:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:14:29 Next.
10:14:33 >> Good morning.
10:14:33 My name is Michael Nicholson.
10:14:36 2410 Davis Street in Palmetto Beach.
10:14:39 I put together a brief photo essay to give you a more
10:14:44 intimate view of our concerns.
10:14:47 I think I can do this in three minutes.
10:14:50 But I just want to show you the addresses and

10:15:01 locations of the properties we're talking about.
10:15:05 It's basically divided into two components.
10:15:09 The first one being 602 being a derelict structure
10:15:13 which has no access and has been that way since 2005.
10:15:23 The two other properties, 902 -- boulevard, as you can
10:15:29 see here is, it's an ever-growing facility that I
10:15:37 don't know if they even have a business place.
10:15:43 They sell fish from there, but now they are
10:15:47 continuously adding on to this structure.
10:15:49 The word from the owner to the Palmetto Beach
10:15:53 community association is that the city has no control
10:15:58 over it.
10:15:58 >>GWEN MILLER: No kind of permits out there?
10:16:00 >> Nothing.
10:16:01 It is basically, to put it lightly, alcohol field
10:16:08 construction at night.
10:16:10 So here is another -- just some more new construction
10:16:14 where you even have restaurant owners buying their
10:16:18 fish from an unrefrigerated truck over the water.
10:16:22 And then finally, where the famous blue boat houseboat
10:16:28 used to be, we have now some new construction again
10:16:32 over that, over that property, and it's just really,

10:16:38 you know, the waterfront there is otherwise just
10:16:41 incredible, our park, everything.
10:16:43 But these people are just thumbing their noses at the
10:16:48 neighborhood and the city and the public in general.
10:16:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:16:53 Next.
10:16:59 >> Good morning, Council.
10:17:01 My name is William Newberry.
10:17:03 I own historical hand painted tile in Ybor City across
10:17:06 from the Columbia Restaurant.
10:17:08 I live in Palmetto Beach.
10:17:10 My house is on Bermuda Boulevard.
10:17:13 The first structure he was referring to that doesn't
10:17:15 have access is visible from my living room.
10:17:18 I get to see it.
10:17:20 I think that that's actually been in that district
10:17:23 there for about four years now.
10:17:27 Neighbors have told me that the owner has made an
10:17:30 application with F.E.M.A. in order to get funds.
10:17:34 I don't believe that this is actually true because I
10:17:36 don't think it qualifies.
10:17:41 Also, the owner of that piece of property owners at

10:17:44 least seven other houses that are there in Palmetto
10:17:47 Beach and other pieces of property around Tampa.
10:17:50 So I don't think money is the issue.
10:18:03 The location at 902 Bermuda Boulevard, I've been
10:18:08 watching that grow for five years.
10:18:11 All residents that live in Palmetto Beach, as you
10:18:14 drive by, you've been watching, has been watching it
10:18:18 continuously get larger.
10:18:20 And I'm quite sure that they haven't gotten the
10:18:23 building permit for anything.
10:18:26 They don't seem to be concerned over whether or not
10:18:31 they are good neighbors, the rest of the community.
10:18:36 As a business owner, I want all over business owners
10:18:42 to do well.
10:18:44 I hope they do well.
10:18:45 We just want them to comply.
10:18:48 Red ready on 602 Bermuda Boulevard, el bravo, they are
10:18:56 currently closed, correct?
10:18:59 It looks like everything fell apart out there.
10:19:01 So they are currently closed.
10:19:03 Just a structure sitting there.
10:19:05 >> It's sitting there.

10:19:06 I think it's been sitting there for three-and-a-half
10:19:09 years just like that.
10:19:13 The famous blue boat that sat for years that was sunk
10:19:18 that the city finally asked them to remove and then it
10:19:24 mysteriously had the fire after they started --
10:19:30 absolutely unknown to anyone that burned over night
10:19:33 and then the debris was floating around in the water.
10:19:36 The owners of this piece of property also own the
10:19:39 continuously growing crab shack.
10:19:44 So I would ask Council if they would look hard, look
10:19:49 carefully, and the neighborhood is really a wonderful
10:19:53 neighborhood.
10:19:53 I've been so happy to be there.
10:19:55 The views are fantastic.
10:19:56 The sunsets and the sunrises are absolutely wonderful.
10:20:01 It's a great place.
10:20:02 It's a great part of Tampa just as long as it's within
10:20:05 code, that would be really wonderful.
10:20:07 Thank you very much.
10:20:07 >>GWEN MILLER: We're working on that.
10:20:11 We'll see that again in court.
10:20:12 Next.

10:20:20 >> Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
10:20:21 My name is Moses Knotts junior.
10:20:23 2902 East Ellicott street three nights a week.
10:20:26 I thank God for his grace and his mercy.
10:20:31 Especially some of the things I'll talk about this
10:20:34 morning.
10:20:34 Article 4 and article 8.
10:20:39 Article 4 here was about this young White lady.
10:20:42 I told you all I represent poor peoples.
10:20:45 And anytime you step on old White folks, I talk about
10:20:48 White folks because I get more credit defending old
10:20:52 White folks than I do black people.
10:20:54 This young lady came in three weeks ago tried to get
10:20:57 her a license for a small family business.
10:21:00 I met the lady and shook her hand.
10:21:02 Like I said, I hate to see her go.
10:21:04 But you all put out an executive order that go out
10:21:08 there and check for -- you put prostitution first.
10:21:12 And then drugs.
10:21:18 When you say area, that's all over town.
10:21:22 But it should have been -- it should have been for
10:21:29 stealing and prostitution and drug.

10:21:30 Let me tell you something.
10:21:32 Stealing and drug use, that's where every --
10:21:36 everywhere now.
10:21:37 Drugs all in the schoolhouses now.
10:21:39 Everywhere.
10:21:41 I see they caught a principal doing drugs in school.
10:21:44 Drugs everywhere.
10:21:45 All in the rich part of town.
10:21:47 Everywhere.
10:21:47 This prostitution is what got me.
10:21:51 Like I say, my days have been numbered coming here.
10:21:54 I hate to see you all step in -- my mother was a
10:22:01 woman.
10:22:02 These women need help.
10:22:08 Let me tell you something.
10:22:09 This thing started over 2,000 years ago when Jesus was
10:22:14 here.
10:22:15 It's in the book of St. John, disciples came to Jesus,
10:22:20 most of them were Jews -- all of them had these big
10:22:25 stones in their hand.
10:22:26 I mean, they are going to let her have it.
10:22:33 He never talked much.

10:22:36 He just looked at all of them.
10:22:38 When he got through -- you know what he said, he said
10:22:44 anyone among you all never sinned, toss the first
10:22:48 stone.
10:22:49 Every one of them stood there and looked at Jesus and
10:22:52 you hear the rocks dropping.
10:22:54 All of them dropped their rock and walked away.
10:22:59 I want you all to stop that.
10:23:00 That's wrong.
10:23:08 Mr. Shawn, I appreciate about changing that law over
10:23:15 there about this thing they are doing over here.
10:23:19 I really appreciate that, that he's doing that.
10:23:24 He's another one that speaks with an open mind.
10:23:27 Anything going on in his town, he speaks with an open
10:23:30 mind.
10:23:31 Most people talk with a one-track mind.
10:23:40 I like these Civic Associations because they don't --
10:23:43 at the poor neighbors.
10:23:44 I love neighbors.
10:23:46 I love everybody, but I love these neighbors.
10:23:50 Thank you very much.
10:23:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.

10:23:51 Anyone else like to speak?
10:23:53 Anyone else like to speak?
10:23:55 We now go to our committee reports.
10:23:57 Public, safety, Ms. Mary Alvarez.
10:24:06 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
10:24:08 I would like to move items 12 to 14.
10:24:13 >> Second.
10:24:13 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:24:15 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:24:16 Opposed, nay.
10:24:17 [Motion Carried]
10:24:17 Parks, recreation, Mr. Frank Reddick.
10:24:19 >>FRANK REDDICK: Move item 15 through 16.
10:24:22 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:24:24 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:24:25 [Motion Carried]
10:24:26 Public works, Mr. John Dingfelder.
10:24:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Items 17 through 24.
10:24:43 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Second.
10:24:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:24:45 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:24:47 [Motion Carried]

10:24:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: With the understanding that number
10:24:50 19 has been continued.
10:24:52 >>MARY ALVAREZ: To March 8th.
10:24:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So excluding 19, we already took
10:24:57 care of.
10:24:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
10:24:59 Our Finance Committee, Mr. Charles Fletcher.
10:25:01 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I move items 25 through 28.
10:25:05 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Second.
10:25:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:25:07 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:25:08 [Motion Carried]
10:25:09 Building and zoning, Ms. Linda Saul-Sena.
10:25:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Madam Chairman, I have
10:25:13 to compliment the city on item number 40, which is a
10:25:21 grant application to help fund technical assistance
10:25:27 and professional services relative to smart growth and
10:25:31 form-based zoning creation.
10:25:33 We've been talking about this for a very long time.
10:25:37 I'm glad we're finally doing it.
10:25:39 And best yet, we're applying for a grant to help pick
10:25:42 up the tab.

10:25:43 So I think that's very, very good.
10:25:45 I would like to move resolutions 29 through 41.
10:25:47 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:25:49 All in favor, aye.
10:25:50 [Motion Carried]
10:25:51 Transportation, Mr. Shawn Harrison.
10:25:53 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I move items 42 and 44 through 53.
10:25:59 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:26:01 All in favor, aye.
10:26:01 >>SHAWN HARRISON: And item 43, move to continue that
10:26:05 to March 15th.
10:26:08 This was the Lightning parking fee increase.
10:26:10 >>GWEN MILLER: It was withdrawn.
10:26:12 >>SHAWN HARRISON: That was withdrawn this morning?
10:26:14 Okay.
10:26:14 Very good.
10:26:28 I move to set new business items 54 through 56 and 58
10:26:33 through 60.
10:26:34 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:26:37 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:26:39 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Item 57, move that to April 26th
10:26:42 at 6 p.m

10:26:43 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor, aye.
10:26:44 [Motion Carried]
10:26:45 We now go to our public hearings for second reading.
10:26:49 Is there anyone in the public going to speak on items
10:26:52 61 through 63, would you please stand and raise your
10:26:55 right hand.
10:26:56 Anyone going to speak on items 61 through 64, would
10:27:00 you please stand and raise your right hand.
10:27:02 We need to open items 61 through 64.
10:27:06 We have a motion and second.
10:27:07 All in favor, aye.
10:27:08 [Motion Carried]
10:27:08 Anyone in the public want to speak on item 61?
10:27:11 We have a motion and second to close.
10:27:13 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:27:15 Mr. Reddick, would you read 61, please.
10:27:17 >>FRANK REDDICK: I move to adopt the following
10:27:20 ordinance for second reading.
10:27:21 Ordinance of the City of Tampa, Florida, amending the
10:27:24 City of Tampa Code of ordinances chapter 27, zoning,
10:27:27 section 27-133, fence and wall regulations by allowing
10:27:33 electric fences under certain conditions; providing

10:27:36 for severability; providing for repeal of all
10:27:39 ordinances in conflict; providing an effective date.
10:27:43 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor -- roll call.
10:27:46 All in favor of the motion, vote and record.
10:27:49 Using the machine.
10:27:50 Vote and record.
10:28:01 >>THE CLERK: The motion carried unanimously.
10:28:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, it's come to my attention
10:28:07 that there are items to be received and filed prior to
10:28:09 the vote that have been available for public
10:28:11 inspection in counsel's office.
10:28:13 I ask they be accepted by motion, please.
10:28:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion.
10:28:19 [Motion Carried]
10:28:20 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Secondly, with regard to all of the
10:28:22 public hearings this morning, again, a reminder to
10:28:25 disclose any ex parte communications you may have had
10:28:28 relating to those prior to the vote.
10:28:29 Lastly, should the time come that anybody does
10:28:32 testify, please reaffirm that you have been sworn when
10:28:34 you state your name.
10:28:35 Thank you.

10:28:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone in the public want to speak on
10:28:37 item 62?
10:28:40 We have a motion and second to close.
10:28:41 All in favor, aye.
10:28:42 [Motion Carried]
10:28:43 Mr. Dingfelder.
10:28:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman I move the
10:28:46 following ordinance upon second reading.
10:28:47 An ordinance making lawful the sale of beverages
10:28:49 containing alcohol regardless of alcoholic content,
10:28:52 beer, wine and liquor, 4(COP-R) for consumption on the
10:28:57 premises only in connection with a restaurant business
10:28:59 establishment on that certain lot, plot or tract of
10:29:02 land located at 2815 East Fowler Avenue, Tampa,
10:29:05 Florida, as more particularly described in section 2
10:29:08 hereof, waiving certain restrictions as to distance
10:29:11 based upon certain findings, providing for repeal of
10:29:14 all ordinances in conflict, providing an effective
10:29:15 date.
10:29:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:29:17 Vote and record.
10:29:28 >>THE CLERK: The motion carried unanimously.

10:29:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public want to
10:29:32 speak on item 63?
10:29:35 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Move to close.
10:29:37 >> Second.
10:29:37 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:29:38 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:29:39 [Motion Carried]
10:29:40 Ms. Alvarez.
10:29:41 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Move to adopt the following ordinance
10:29:43 upon second reading.
10:29:44 An ordinance repealing ordinance number 2002-221,
10:29:48 making lawful the sale of beverages containing alcohol
10:29:51 regardless of alcoholic content, beer, wine and
10:29:53 liquor, 4(COP-R) for consumption on premises only in
10:29:58 connection with a restaurant business establishment on
10:29:59 that certain lot, plot or tract of land located at
10:30:03 4606 West Boyscout Boulevard, Tampa, Florida, as more
10:30:07 particularly described in section 3 hereof, waiving
10:30:11 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
10:30:14 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
10:30:16 conflict, providing an effective date.
10:30:17 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.

10:30:19 Vote and record.
10:30:29 >>THE CLERK: The motion carried unanimously.
10:30:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public want to
10:30:34 speak on item 64?
10:30:36 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Move to close.
10:30:39 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:30:40 All in favor of the motion, aye.
10:30:42 [Motion Carried]
10:30:42 Mr. Harrison.
10:30:43 >>SHAWN HARRISON: It looks like I voted against that.
10:30:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Fletcher.
10:30:50 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I move to adopt the following
10:30:52 ordinance upon second reading.
10:30:54 Ordinance rezoning property in the general vicinity of
10:30:59 310 North Ola Avenue and 206 West Plymouth street in
10:31:04 the City of Tampa, Florida, and more particularly
10:31:06 described in section 1 from zoning district
10:31:09 classification RS-50, residential single-family, to
10:31:13 PD, planned development, bed and breakfast/youth
10:31:19 HOSTEL, providing an effective date.
10:31:22 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:31:24 Vote and record.

10:31:40 >>THE CLERK: The motion carried with Harrison voting
10:31:42 no.
10:31:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public going to
10:31:46 speak on items 65 and 66, would you please stand and
10:31:49 raise your right hand.
10:31:51 Oh, my goodness.
10:31:53 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Whoa.
10:31:56 (Oath administered by clerk).
10:32:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 65 is a continued public hearing.
10:32:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Again, ladies and gentlemen, when you
10:32:06 state your name, please reaffirm you have been sworn
10:32:08 so it's clear on the record.
10:32:10 Thank you.
10:32:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Do we have a staff report on 65?
10:32:14 Does staff want to say anything?
10:32:23 >> This is the -- 113-123 South Hyde Park.
10:32:34 Requesting 4(COP-X) sale of beer and alcohol.
10:32:42 I'm sorry.
10:32:47 Requesting a 4(COP-X).
10:32:52 Two wet zonings already approved.
10:32:54 Location at 113 and 115, there is a 2(COP-R), and also
10:33:00 123 South Hyde, there is a 1(COP) grandfathered wet

10:33:07 zoning.
10:33:09 There are wet zoned properties and residential
10:33:12 properties also the institutional properties in the
10:33:18 walking distance.
10:33:20 The petitioner is requesting the waivers of the
10:33:24 distance separation.
10:33:25 Land Development has no objection.
10:33:27 There are also some problems with the parking, but
10:33:30 that will be done during the permitting.
10:33:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Harrison.
10:33:35 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I just wanted to make sure we don't
10:33:37 have a notice issue.
10:33:38 It still says 4(COP-X) at the top of the notice, but
10:33:43 the ordinance itself says 2(COP-R).
10:33:47 >> No, you don't have a notice problem.
10:33:49 The 2(COP-R) is less intense than the 4(COP-X), and it
10:33:53 was announced at the last meeting and it's a continued
10:33:56 public hearing.
10:33:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a staff question and it's
10:34:00 about the parking.
10:34:00 I wasn't really clear on when that gets addressed.
10:34:04 >> The parking issue, when we receive the application,

10:34:07 we don't get the information, kitchen area, seating
10:34:15 area, we don't get that information.
10:34:17 Because at the present time, it doesn't require us to
10:34:19 get that information from the petitioner.
10:34:23 So we've done a review that unfortunately will be
10:34:27 changed during the code changes.
10:34:29 We don't review the parking issue.
10:34:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: When are the code changes coming
10:34:32 back to us?
10:34:34 >> We are working on it.
10:34:35 >> You have a workshop set for March 21.
10:34:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Will that then be something that we
10:34:40 can actually begin the process of adoption or what is
10:34:43 the critical path on that timewise?
10:34:46 >> I've been working with Catherine Coyle on this,
10:34:50 7:00 last night we were working on it.
10:34:52 And we're working on it as quickly as we can to get
10:34:54 something together.
10:34:55 We will come back.
10:34:56 We're going to need some direction on a couple of
10:34:59 issues and hopefully after March 21st, we'll get the
10:35:02 direction on the additional items that we need from

10:35:04 City Council and then we'll be able to come back as
10:35:06 quickly as possible.
10:35:07 We are actually crafting language, but we're not in a
10:35:09 position on March 21st to come back with the exact
10:35:12 language.
10:35:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's say on the 21st, we develop
10:35:15 language, then it would come back to us 30 days later
10:35:18 and then to the Planning Commission and then back to
10:35:20 us.
10:35:21 So we're talking Mayish or Juneish.
10:35:24 >> That sounds about right.
10:35:25 May or June.
10:35:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
10:35:31 >> Good morning, Madam Chairman, members of Council.
10:35:33 My name is Joseph Diaz, 2522 West Kennedy Boulevard.
10:35:38 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Have you been sworn, sir?
10:35:40 >> Yes, I have.
10:35:41 Before we begin, I think we need to clarify an answer
10:35:45 I gave you, Ms. Saul-Sena, incorrectly last week.
10:35:57 How do we activate this?
10:36:01 >> It's on.
10:36:12 >> This is what is there right now.

10:36:13 Last week I inadvertently drew a line somewhere, say a
10:36:18 natural extension here and indicated to you that's
10:36:20 what the 1-COP is.
10:36:23 That's not the scenario.
10:36:26 What it is is this area.
10:36:28 This 2-COP-R is the one that by ordinance, which is
10:36:32 the Cafe European and this area here in the middle
10:36:37 which is somewhere in the 580 to 585 square feet is
10:36:42 Hyde Park.
10:36:47 You have an ordinance adopting 1,727 square feet of a
10:36:54 2-COP-R.
10:36:55 You have somewhere in the 580 TO 585 with no ordinance,
10:36:59 nothing.
10:36:59 It's just a retail center.
10:37:00 And then you got to grandfather approximately 4320
10:37:04 square feet.
10:37:08 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Mr. Diaz, would you flip that so
10:37:12 it's oriented North?
10:37:15 90 degrees to the right.
10:37:17 There you go.
10:37:22 The 2-COP-R, is that currently zoning in that's the
10:37:27 current zoning where it says 2-COP-R.

10:37:30 >> There is an ordinance for that 2-COP-R.
10:37:32 >>SHAWN HARRISON: But not the ordinance we're being
10:37:34 asked to vote on today.
10:37:35 It has existing 2-COP-R.
10:37:38 >> This is what is there right now.
10:37:40 Before we filed anything with Council, this is what is
10:37:42 there right now.
10:37:45 The initial application that we filed was to go from
10:37:49 here to here to here.
10:37:51 This whole area initially filed for 4(COP-X).
10:37:55 During the course of the hearing, there came up some
10:37:58 conversations about a 4(COP-R).
10:38:00 Later came some conversations about 2-COP-R and later
10:38:03 came some conversations about maybe a 2-COP-R with
10:38:06 some conditionals.
10:38:08 I'm not quite sure how much we want to rehash.
10:38:12 You kind of give me direction and tell me where you
10:38:14 want to go with it.
10:38:15 At that point in time, requested that we go and meet
10:38:18 with both University of Tampa and with the church in
10:38:21 the area to see if we could work something out.
10:38:24 There had been some conversations alluded to that the

10:38:28 Council had in the past granted a 2-COP-R and in the
10:38:33 future depending upon the caliber of the operator,
10:38:36 might be able to come back later and request a
10:38:38 4(COP-R).
10:38:39 Ma'am, I believe that's what Mr. Harrison indicated
10:38:42 during the course of the hearing last week or two
10:38:47 weeks ago.
10:38:48 We met with the University of Tampa on several
10:38:51 occasions.
10:38:52 We met with the church this past Sunday.
10:38:55 They had their board there.
10:38:57 Unfortunately, neither of them have been able to come
10:38:59 on board and support a 2-COP-R.
10:39:06 So I understand what our marching orders were.
10:39:10 I can't bring you back any endorsement from either of
10:39:12 those two institutions.
10:39:15 And along the way, we've been told that if we got a
10:39:19 2-COP-R, they were really going to fight us for a
10:39:22 4(COP-R) in the future.
10:39:24 I'll be honest with you, our problem is, if you take
10:39:27 something now, then we have to go deal with these
10:39:30 parking issues.

10:39:31 The next thing you know, they'll give us a whole lot
10:39:34 of problems and then we may have lost what we have now
10:39:37 and then we end up with nothing, and we lost our
10:39:41 2-COP-R.
10:39:42 We lost our 1-COP, which we honestly believe we are
10:39:46 actually downgrading.
10:39:49 Because now we don't have to sell food.
10:39:52 We can sell package.
10:39:54 We don't have to have a kitchen.
10:39:57 We intend to have a kitchen.
10:39:58 We want to have a kitchen.
10:40:00 But we're going to say, yeah, we'll get the ability to
10:40:03 sell wine and liquor, yes, it's true.
10:40:07 But now we'll have to be 51/49.
10:40:10 We're not now.
10:40:11 Not on the 1-COP.
10:40:12 Now we won't be able to sell package.
10:40:15 We can now.
10:40:16 We won't then.
10:40:19 So we're caught in a quandary.
10:40:21 If we come to you and we tell you, look, we would have
10:40:25 taken a 2-COP-R except that the condition is the only

10:40:29 way we support a 2-COP-R, you have to give us an
10:40:32 assurance you'll never come back and ask for 4(COP-R),
10:40:36 we don't care what kind of operator you are.
10:40:38 But we're not making that representation.
10:40:40 So, unfortunately, we're in a position that if you
10:40:44 approve something for us and we have to go get parking
10:40:48 and then we have to face this all over again and they
10:40:55 don't approve that, then we may have nothing.
10:41:01 What can I advise my client?
10:41:04 Advise my client of the following.
10:41:06 We'll accept the 4(COP-R) and if for any reason, that
10:41:11 4(COP-R) gets denied and we can't use it because of a
10:41:15 parking variance, then we want to be back where we
10:41:18 were to begin with.
10:41:19 If we can't be there, then unfortunately, we'll keep
10:41:23 our 1-COP R and have 4300 square feet, be able to sell
10:41:31 package, which is not what we want to do.
10:41:33 We'll more than likely end up selling food because
10:41:35 we're in the food business.
10:41:38 We don't have to meet 51/49.
10:41:42 We're willing to meet all of those conditions and
10:41:44 restrictions, but it would be too much to ask somebody

10:41:49 to make that kind of investment and lose it all.
10:41:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Are you finished?
10:41:59 >> I thought he wanted to ask a question.
10:42:01 >>GWEN MILLER: We wait until you finish your
10:42:03 presentation and then we ask questions.
10:42:05 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I don't think we need to go any
10:42:06 further.
10:42:07 Are you saying to us that we have a 2-COP-R on the
10:42:09 agenda right now and your client is not willing to
10:42:12 accept the 2-COP-R that they are now requesting a
10:42:15 4(COP-R)?
10:42:18 >> That is correct, Mr. Harrison.
10:42:19 When we started out, we started with a 4(COP-X).
10:42:22 The Council worked its way down to a 2-COP-R.
10:42:25 Asked us to speak with the schools and the church.
10:42:28 We can't get anywhere with a 2-COP-R, which means we
10:42:33 never get anywhere with a 4(COP-R).
10:42:36 We would never get there.
10:42:38 So how do I now come in here and tell you, yeah, give
10:42:41 me a 2-COP-R knowing that I can never come back to you
10:42:46 whatsoever.
10:42:47 And then what happens if I have to go and deal with

10:42:50 the parking issue and they say, you know what, you
10:42:53 don't satisfy parking, I've got to face the church and
10:42:56 I've got to face the university all over again, now
10:42:59 they don't let me do my development because of the
10:43:02 parking issue, and now where do I stand?
10:43:05 I've got nothing.
10:43:06 Now I can't do anything.
10:43:08 So, you know, part of this problem here is university
10:43:13 built a big dorm there.
10:43:14 How did they get around the parking problem?
10:43:16 How did they rectify that?
10:43:18 So we're here today.
10:43:19 So, yeah, we understand that we're asking the Council
10:43:22 for it.
10:43:23 We're fully cognizant of it, but if I don't watch out,
10:43:27 I'm going to have my client selling hot dogs or
10:43:30 something and it's all gone.
10:43:35 So we told you what kind of operator we are.
10:43:38 You've gotten no bad reports from the police
10:43:41 department.
10:43:42 We've never had a problem in operating any of our
10:43:44 previous locations.

10:43:45 We'll commit to a 51/49.
10:43:49 We have no problems with that whatsoever.
10:43:52 If it's a 4 cop.
10:43:53 If it's not a 4 cop, unfortunately, Mr. Harrison,
10:43:57 we're going to ask you to vote it straight up or down
10:44:00 on a 4 cop and we understand what the outcome may well
10:44:04 be.
10:44:07 >>SHAWN HARRISON: We don't have 4 cop in front of us.
10:44:11 >> Rebecca Kert, Legal Department.
10:44:12 Mr. Harrison is correct.
10:44:14 Last week, the petitioner orally amended his
10:44:16 application to a 2-COP-R to go back up to something
10:44:21 more intense would create a notice issue.
10:44:26 >>GWEN MILLER: If he wants to go back to 4(COP-R), we
10:44:30 cannot hear it today?
10:44:31 >> 4(COP-R) or 4(COP-X) or anything more intense than
10:44:35 a 2-COP-R, he will have to renotice.
10:44:37 It's out of order to be heard today.
10:44:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, I have a question.
10:44:42 In order to expedite things, would it be possible for
10:44:48 Council to take sort of a vote on whether to allow the
10:44:52 petitioner to go back and make this other question

10:44:57 request?
10:44:58 >> I think as part of the hearing on the 2-COP-R, if
10:45:01 you wanted to have some discussion and give him some
10:45:03 guidance, that's fine.
10:45:05 But if he wants to do anything more intense, he's
10:45:08 going to have to do a full renotice of the public
10:45:11 hearing.
10:45:13 You have a public hearing open today for 2-COP-R.
10:45:16 It's appropriate for you all to have discussions on
10:45:19 the petition limited to that.
10:45:26 >> The initial petition we had before us was for a
10:45:29 4(COP-X), correct?
10:45:31 >> That's correct.
10:45:32 >> We are here in a hearing from a hearing continued
10:45:35 previously that was on a 4(COP-X).
10:45:38 >> That is correct.
10:45:38 But at the last hearing, the petitioner amended his
10:45:41 petition to a 2-COP-R, and that's what -- at the end
10:45:46 of the day at the last hearing, it was changed to
10:45:48 2-COP-R.
10:45:49 It was continued from that hearing.
10:45:51 So it's still at a 2-COP-R.

10:45:54 Anyone who was at that last hearing, would have
10:45:58 thought this hearing was on a 2-COP-R.
10:46:00 >> So the discussion we had between the Council and
10:46:03 petitioner suggesting they go and discuss this as
10:46:05 2-COP-R with the community effectively amended his
10:46:09 petition?
10:46:09 >> No, that would not effectively amend his petition.
10:46:12 He, in fact, requested last week a 2-COP-R.
10:46:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
10:46:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We've heard from the petitioner.
10:46:20 I think we need to hear from at least representatives
10:46:23 of the community.
10:46:27 It looked like we were moving a little too fast.
10:46:32 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Regardless of whether it's a 2-COP-R,
10:46:36 4(COP-X) or whatever, my problem with this is the
10:46:39 parking issue.
10:46:40 There's just no parking in this area.
10:46:42 And they've already gone to ask the churches around
10:46:47 there if they would allow them to park or lease some
10:46:52 of the space in there and they said no.
10:46:54 So where's he going to park?
10:46:57 >> The way that your code currently is written,

10:46:59 parking is not a consideration for a wet zoning
10:47:02 petition.
10:47:03 We are proposing to change that and bring that back to
10:47:06 you.
10:47:06 But at this point, that's not an appropriate basis for
10:47:09 denial.
10:47:09 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Well, it may not be an appropriate
10:47:13 base, but I want to protect the streets around there
10:47:16 and the people.
10:47:17 The people are going to park anywhere?
10:47:19 We'll change the ordinance and maybe I won't be able
10:47:23 to deny it because of that, but there are a lot of
10:47:26 other issues.
10:47:29 >>MARTIN SHELBY: A suggestion, Council, if that is a
10:47:31 concern, if you could frame that in a way where you
10:47:34 can state that it does affect the health, safety and
10:47:36 welfare of the area of the community, considering that
10:47:39 there are waivers being requested, if I recall
10:47:43 correctly, then you can do that as a basis if you so
10:47:46 wish.
10:47:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Harrison.
10:47:48 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, Madam Chair, we have a room

10:47:51 full of people that came down to speak.
10:47:53 And the rules of the game just got changed in front of
10:47:56 all of our eyes.
10:47:59 I'm not sure, if we're going to have public testimony
10:48:03 on a 2-COP-R, there's not -- the petitioner has now
10:48:07 said we're not even asking for a 2-COP-R anymore.
10:48:11 We're going back to a four which allows more intense
10:48:14 liquor to be served.
10:48:15 And I'm sure that there's going to be extreme
10:48:18 objections by audience members to that.
10:48:20 We thought that we had worked out something that maybe
10:48:24 everybody could live with, and now the petitioner says
10:48:27 we're not willing to do that.
10:48:30 So I'm not sure what the point is in taking public
10:48:32 testimony on a 2-COP-R that isn't even in front of us
10:48:36 anymore.
10:48:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Diaz.
10:48:39 >> Ma'am, if I may, first of all, the reason --
10:48:43 neither the church or school would agree to a 2-COP-R.
10:48:46 So we went to them and they wouldn't buy it.
10:48:49 But it looks like where this is headed, I think we can
10:48:52 make it real simple for everyone.

10:48:54 We're going to withdraw our application in total and
10:48:57 we're going to stay with 4320 of a 1-COP.
10:49:01 We won't have to deal with parking.
10:49:03 We're going to keep our 2-COP-R, and we're going to
10:49:06 withdraw our application.
10:49:07 So we would like to thank you for your consideration,
10:49:10 but we're going to pull it.
10:49:11 >>GWEN MILLER: We need a motion to accept the
10:49:13 withdrawal.
10:49:14 >>MARY ALVAREZ: So moved.
10:49:15 >> Second.
10:49:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second to withdraw
10:49:18 item 65.
10:49:19 All in favor, aye.
10:49:20 Opposed, nay.
10:49:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Point of order before everybody
10:49:24 gets up.
10:49:25 What does our rule currently say about any kind of
10:49:28 refiling by this petitioner for the same petition or
10:49:33 similar petition?
10:49:34 >> Currently, if the application is withdrawn, you
10:49:37 currently have no time limits on when they can come

10:49:39 back and refile.
10:49:41 That was changed during the last round of chapter 3
10:49:44 changes.
10:49:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Did we have to accept their
10:49:48 withdrawal?
10:49:53 >> I believe procedurally, the clerk needs you to do
10:49:56 that for purposes of your agenda.
10:49:57 However, the petitioner has the right to withdraw his
10:50:00 application.
10:50:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It looks like our hands are tied.
10:50:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Rebecca, this is really germane to
10:50:07 this.
10:50:08 The questions I asked you initially about what we're
10:50:10 looking at in March, aren't we changing it so that
10:50:13 Council will in the future after we amend our
10:50:15 ordinance, look at parking as one of the
10:50:18 considerations in granting a liquor zoning?
10:50:21 >> That is what we're proposing to bring back to you,
10:50:23 yes, ma'am.
10:50:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, that's relevant to this.
10:50:28 If this were to come back again would we look at
10:50:31 parking simultaneously?

10:50:33 >> If it came back after the code changes, yes, you
10:50:37 would.
10:50:37 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to item 66, which is also a
10:50:40 public hearing.
10:50:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't we let them clear out.
10:51:51 >> Good morning, Council.
10:51:53 Abbye Feeley, Land Development coordination.
10:51:55 I have been sworn.
10:51:56 The rezoning before you is at 1600 West Kennedy
10:51:59 Boulevard.
10:52:02 It is a request to go from CI, commercial intensive,
10:52:06 to PD, planned development, for retail.
10:52:08 There are seven waivers associated with the request
10:52:12 this morning.
10:52:13 One to allow commercial vehicle access to the Dakota
10:52:17 Avenue.
10:52:18 Second, to allow access to an alley.
10:52:20 The third to waive the required buffer from 15 feet to
10:52:24 one foot.
10:52:25 The fourth to do six-foot PVC fence in lieu of the
10:52:31 six-foot masonry wall.
10:52:33 The waiver for additional signage, 93 square feet.

10:52:39 And six, to waive the -- reduce the required setback
10:52:45 for parking in the Kennedy overlay from 30 feet to
10:52:48 four feet.
10:52:49 And the last to waive 1,675 square feet of greenspace.
10:52:56 The petition before you is requesting CI to PD for the
10:53:04 construction of a 2,022-square-foot drive-thru
10:53:09 restaurant.
10:53:10 I think you've seen press on this.
10:53:11 This is the Starbucks on Kennedy.
10:53:15 It is requested setbacks for the project zero feet on
10:53:18 all sides.
10:53:18 The parking lot is going to be located on the West
10:53:21 side of the site with the drive-thru queuing to the
10:53:25 rear of the site.
10:53:29 Let me go ahead and show you some pictures.
10:53:35 The property is located 1600 West Kennedy with Rome to
10:53:40 the West and Dakota to the East and Cleveland to the
10:53:46 South of the block there.
10:53:49 Located immediately adjacent to the property on the
10:53:52 East is McDonald's.
10:53:54 Right across the street is Wendy's.
10:53:56 KFC, Taco Bell.

10:53:59 The site is currently operating as a used car lot.
10:54:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Is there a home immediately
10:54:06 adjacent to the South?
10:54:07 Is that a home?
10:54:15 Immediately next to the subject parcel --
10:54:17 >>ABBYE FEELEY: Yes, I believe it is a residential
10:54:19 property.
10:54:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: And you're asking for a waiver of
10:54:24 the setback and masonry wall.
10:54:34 I'm talking about right smack next to this, it looks
10:54:36 like a house.
10:54:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Says a church.
10:54:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The big thing is a church.
10:54:42 The thing next to it -- I'm saying, is that a house?
10:54:49 >>ABBYE FEELEY: The smaller structure that you're
10:54:51 referring to.
10:54:51 On Dakota.
10:54:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's smack next to it.
10:55:00 There's a yellow line and immediately adjacent to it
10:55:00 on the south.
10:55:02 Is that a house?
10:55:03 Do you have a photograph of the site from the street

10:55:07 level?
10:55:09 >>ABBYE FEELEY: I do, but not on Dakota.
10:55:17 This case has been continued months and months.
10:55:19 Sorry, it's been a while since I've been out to the
10:55:22 site.
10:55:22 I'll let Mr. Michelini speak to that.
10:55:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm just wondering what it is.
10:55:37 >>ABBYE FEELEY: Looking down Dakota from Kennedy, you
10:55:40 can see the car sales lot and then it's a church
10:55:43 structure.
10:55:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But next to the church, between the
10:55:46 church and the car lot.
10:55:48 >>ABBYE FEELEY: I believe that is the church building.
10:55:50 There are two buildings from what this photo is
10:55:53 showing.
10:55:53 The church is immediately abutting the masonry wall
10:55:57 now located at the back of the building.
10:56:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's the big church, but next to
10:56:06 it.
10:56:12 Okay.
10:56:12 It's hard to tell.
10:56:19 >>ABBYE FEELEY: This is actually a picture of the site

10:56:23 currently.
10:56:24 And immediately to the West there's a laundromat
10:56:29 facing on Kennedy and then across Dakota is the
10:56:33 McDonald's.
10:56:39 There are currently objections related to this case.
10:56:42 One is from transportation related to the access on
10:56:44 the alley.
10:56:45 There are residential structures that access that
10:56:47 alley, and per code, we would not allow commercial
10:56:51 traffic to be accessing an alley that's currently
10:56:54 utilized by residential properties.
10:56:57 The other are some concerns I raised related to the
10:57:01 Kennedy overlay standards.
10:57:02 There are several waivers on this site plan related to
10:57:05 Kennedy overlay.
10:57:07 There's also a note on the plan that states if it's
10:57:10 shown, it's waived, but I didn't agree with because it
10:57:14 didn't call out specifically what the waivers were
10:57:16 asking for.
10:57:17 In addition, if you see on the elevation on the site
10:57:21 plan, signage, that front signage that's being shown,
10:57:33 the front signage here, per Kennedy overlay, they are

10:57:37 allowed 12.5 square feet of signage there, which I
10:57:40 understand is minimal given the width of the frontage
10:57:43 of their building.
10:57:44 However, they are asking for 100 square feet of
10:57:46 signage which is eight times what they are allowed.
10:57:48 So I did raise that as a concern.
10:57:51 They are removing an existing pylon sign, which now
10:57:55 brings them into compliance with Kennedy overlay
10:57:59 district, which does not allow for pylons.
10:58:02 So they have made that change to the site plan.
10:58:08 And there was a technical objection raised by
10:58:12 landscape due to the waiver of the 1675 square feet of
10:58:16 greenspace.
10:58:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: How much greenspace is being
10:58:19 provided?
10:58:22 >>ABBYE FEELEY: I knew you would ask.
10:58:24 I was doing my calculations.
10:58:25 I believe it's 2,576 square feet.
10:58:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Waiving 1600.
10:58:34 In a situation like that, will they be required to pay
10:58:40 for the space that they are asking to be waived?
10:58:43 >>ABBYE FEELEY: Yes, they'll pay for the in lieu for

10:58:45 the 1675.
10:58:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What again is the overlay setback,
10:58:49 and -- I mean, setback for parking?
10:58:52 >>ABBYE FEELEY: For parking on the front, it's 30 feet
10:58:58 on the front, which in a previous design, they had
10:59:02 another structure and the parking was more behind the
10:59:05 building.
10:59:06 Now that they've changed it and went down to one
10:59:09 building and moved it over, and given the queuing --
10:59:17 as you can see how the queuing comes down on the East
10:59:21 side and then around.
10:59:24 There's no other place for parking now for the rear,
10:59:27 because they have to accommodate that queuing.
10:59:29 So the parking had to be moved up in order to meet the
10:59:32 required parking.
10:59:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Are they providing more parking
10:59:36 than is required?
10:59:38 >>ABBYE FEELEY: No.
10:59:48 They are required 15 spaces.
10:59:52 They are providing 20.
10:59:53 So they are providing five additional.
10:59:55 However, 50% of what they are providing is compact.

10:59:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But if they were to get rid of a
11:00:01 couple of spaces, they could move the parking back,
11:00:03 they could meet the Kennedy overlay, they could
11:00:06 provide a little more greenspace so they wouldn't have
11:00:08 to ask for a greenspace waiver.
11:00:10 Maybe that's something that we should -- or have you
11:00:13 had that conversation with the petitioner?
11:00:16 >>ABBYE FEELEY: We've had several conversations with
11:00:18 the petitioner.
11:00:19 I believe there are some constraints given the
11:00:21 corporate layouts of these sites and what the
11:00:24 corporate packages are for the designs of the
11:00:26 buildings.
11:00:26 I'll let Mr. Michelini speak to that.
11:00:29 We have raised that and discussed that.
11:00:31 The same thing with the signage.
11:00:33 I believe they have some set signage standard.
11:00:35 In fact, this signage package is an a la carte
11:00:40 package.
11:00:40 It's because they have such a unique trying to meet the
11:00:43 Kennedy overlay standard.
11:00:48 >>MARY ALVAREZ: You said one of the waivers is the

11:00:49 commercial vehicle access on South Dakota Avenue?
11:00:55 >>ABBYE FEELEY: It's the alley access.
11:00:56 There are two waivers.
11:00:58 The first waiver is for access on Dakota.
11:01:00 >>MARY ALVAREZ: That's the one I'm talking about.
11:01:02 You have a McDonald's next to it, how do they get
11:01:06 their commercial vehicles in there?
11:01:08 >> The commercial that I was talking to was related to
11:01:10 the waiver number two, which is allow alley access.
11:01:14 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Where is the alley?
11:01:15 >>ABBYE FEELEY: It's on the West side of the building.
11:01:19 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Well, that's not Dakota then.
11:01:24 >>ABBYE FEELEY: There's an alley that runs on the
11:01:26 western portion.
11:01:27 They are asking for a waiver to be able to access that
11:01:30 alley.
11:01:31 And given that there are residential homes that front
11:01:33 on that alley and use that alley, code speaks to when
11:01:39 there is residential already using the alley, that
11:01:42 commercial should not be using the alley as well.
11:01:45 >>MARY ALVAREZ: How many residential parcels are
11:01:46 there?

11:01:47 You're talking about the ones on the South, off of
11:01:50 Rome Avenue?
11:01:53 >>ABBYE FEELEY: Yes, and I believe further down on
11:01:55 Dakota there are some.
11:01:57 I could let Melanie speak to the transportation
11:02:00 objection on the access to the alley further.
11:02:03 >> We have the ability to waive that, right?
11:02:09 >>MARY ALVAREZ: It's not like they are being blocked
11:02:11 in or something.
11:02:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's hear from the petitioner.
11:02:15 Petitioner?
11:02:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Wait a second, I thought Melanie
11:02:24 was coming up to talk about the alley.
11:02:33 >> Melanie Calloway, transportation.
11:02:35 I have -- yes, I have been sworn.
11:02:37 I just have an aerial right here that I can show you
11:02:40 where -- there's town home residences approved --
11:02:49 [INAUDIBLE].
11:02:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: What's the staff concern then?
11:02:54 >> The code is very clear that commercial property has
11:02:57 to access arterial collector streets.
11:02:59 They are accessing the alley.

11:03:01 We have gone through this case a long time.
11:03:04 Actually, they don't have to access the alley.
11:03:07 They are choosing to do that.
11:03:08 So that is a waiver.
11:03:09 So I am upholding the code, which states -- especially
11:03:14 when residential.
11:03:24 >> Good morning, Steve Michelini.
11:03:26 I have been sworn.
11:03:28 Basically, this property is an existing car lot.
11:03:34 Just to orient you, this is a view looking East from
11:03:38 the dry cleaners, which is immediately to the West of
11:03:41 this.
11:03:42 The dry cleaners use the alley to access the back for
11:03:45 their pickups and deliveries as well as the other
11:03:49 commercial buildings and enterprises further along the
11:03:54 South.
11:03:56 This is just another view.
11:03:58 This is further to the West.
11:03:59 You can see the dry cleaner sign and then you can see
11:04:01 the pylon sign that Abbye was talking about that are
11:04:04 being removed.
11:04:08 This is a view looking South -- southeastward across

11:04:13 the site.
11:04:16 This is the parking lot.
11:04:17 This is the office.
11:04:18 The sales office for the car lot.
11:04:20 And then immediately behind that, councilman
11:04:24 Saul-Sena, is the -- [INAUDIBLE] -- part of the
11:04:30 church.
11:04:31 It looks like a house, but it's part of the Pastor's
11:04:34 rectory and meeting rooms and directly connected to
11:04:36 the church.
11:04:37 Directly across the street is the Kentucky fried
11:04:42 chicken and the Sweetbay -- I think it's Sweetbay --
11:04:47 save right supermarket with all their signage.
11:04:50 They have their drive-thru running right along the
11:04:54 frontage of Kennedy Boulevard.
11:05:00 This is a closer up shot of the frontage of where
11:05:03 we're proposing to place the Starbucks.
11:05:05 A car lot here and then the entranceway.
11:05:08 This is directly across from Dakota, and you're
11:05:12 looking Eastward on Kennedy Boulevard.
11:05:18 This is the McDonald's immediately to the East of
11:05:21 the site.

11:05:22 The driveway, you can see this car on the edge coming
11:05:24 out of the driveway.
11:05:25 Our driveway is closer to Kennedy Boulevard than this
11:05:28 one.
11:05:29 And it is listed as a waiver.
11:05:31 You can see it now.
11:05:32 It's further back.
11:05:33 This driveway actually sits right in front of the
11:05:36 church.
11:05:44 This is our existing driveway on Dakota and this is
11:05:47 approximately the location of where we're proposing
11:05:49 the Starbucks' driveway to be.
11:05:50 It would be reconstructed and rebuild, but that's
11:05:54 approximately the same location.
11:06:11 These are -- more or less, these are views of the same
11:06:14 area.
11:06:14 Let me take you to the site plan and explain to you
11:06:17 why we've had to do some of the things we've had to
11:06:20 do.
11:06:24 This project originally had a 4,000-square-foot office
11:06:28 component that was here.
11:06:30 And because of the various constraints that we were

11:06:34 faced with, including providing the length of queue
11:06:39 for this drive aisle, it forced the removal of parking
11:06:44 that was originally back here, it forced it to be
11:06:50 removed.
11:06:51 Starbucks itself is a corporate entity, has a minimum
11:06:56 requirement of 20 spaces for each of their units.
11:06:59 We thought about it, tried to play around, how will we
11:07:03 address the buffering along Kennedy Boulevard to meet
11:07:05 the criteria or at least the spirit of the criteria of
11:07:08 the overlay district.
11:07:09 So what we did was, we put a low knee wall across the
11:07:14 frontage here, which you can see in this diagram here.
11:07:19 And then heavy landscaping behind it, accented with
11:07:22 the appropriate trees according to the Kennedy
11:07:25 overlay.
11:07:26 The view of these cars is going to be screened
11:07:30 completely by that landscaping.
11:07:32 We also added these patios, these front dining areas
11:07:37 that are covered with awnings to take the
11:07:41 indoor/outdoor type of activity from the Starbucks
11:07:45 from the inside to the outside outdoors and then make
11:07:48 it covered so in case of inclement weather, people

11:07:51 could enjoy sitting outside.
11:07:52 As you know, it gets kind of warm, but in the evening,
11:07:56 it would be very nice and attractive amenity.
11:08:00 Although it's a separate petition and we'll have to
11:08:03 get this filed with the transportation department, we
11:08:08 were proposing to add some nonexclusive on the
11:08:13 right-of-way parking.
11:08:14 It's not part of our petition because we have to file
11:08:16 those various applications with transportation.
11:08:18 But we were proposing to add those as well.
11:08:22 Transportation also has a minimum setback for the
11:08:24 exiting of that queue, which pushes things down.
11:08:30 That's what is pushing this building down, pushes this
11:08:33 delivery window down, and then we added landscaping
11:08:37 back in here.
11:08:41 Five-foot easement to the city to widen the alley from
11:08:44 15 feet to 20 feet to our property line.
11:08:50 We are encouraging people to minimize any activity
11:08:52 further back, because the alley will get narrow at
11:08:55 this point, at the far southern end of our property
11:08:58 line.
11:08:59 And it's going to encourage people to come in here.

11:09:02 Now, again, the dry cleaner up in here still uses this
11:09:05 alley for their deliveries, for the pickup and
11:09:07 delivery of all of their clothes and things like that.
11:09:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Ask you a quick question about the
11:09:13 alley, Mr. Michelini.
11:09:15 I see what your proposed pattern is for the alley.
11:09:18 I don't know that I have a big problem with it, folks
11:09:21 coming in off of Kennedy and coming and coming into
11:09:24 the property.
11:09:25 I have a little bit of a problem with the exit part of
11:09:29 that, because if they exit and they decide to go left
11:09:32 and they come down toward --
11:09:35 >> This diagram is not accurate.
11:09:37 This is a one-way southbound alley.
11:09:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I never heard of a one-way
11:09:42 southbound alley.
11:09:43 >> I mean, that's the way it's functioning now.
11:09:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is it marked one-way?
11:09:49 >> There are signs out there.
11:09:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Anyway, I just have a little bit of
11:09:54 a problem with the exit there.
11:09:56 I don't think it's necessary.

11:09:57 I think everybody could exit to Dakota.
11:10:01 And it would be a lot healthier for the alley.
11:10:03 So you can carry on.
11:10:05 I'm just throwing that in.
11:10:10 >> We have probably been through about every different
11:10:12 type of configuration you can imagine on this
11:10:15 particular site.
11:10:16 It is one of the first true retail establishments in a
11:10:20 redevelopment area.
11:10:21 I think that what we've discovered here is a lot of
11:10:23 the Kennedy overlay rules need to be adjusted.
11:10:28 They should be used as tools and not necessarily as
11:10:32 absolutes.
11:10:34 Because as you found in other overlay districts, some
11:10:37 of the first projects suffer tremendously in trying to
11:10:40 figure out how are you going to meet the different
11:10:43 criteria.
11:10:44 If you want those true 24-hour or late-night
11:10:47 operations, you have to be able to meet the technical
11:10:51 standards as well as the zoning standards as well as
11:10:53 the overlay district standards.
11:10:55 And in many cases, they are actually working against

11:10:59 each other in trying to figure out how to make that
11:11:02 happen.
11:11:03 I think that Abbye will concur, this is probably,
11:11:06 although seven official site plan submissions, we
11:11:10 probably have had 15 different reiterations of how to
11:11:14 make this happen and how to best weave this into this
11:11:17 site.
11:11:18 Typically, you would be building upon a site of this
11:11:22 size somewhere in the neighborhood of a five to eight
11:11:25 thousand-square-foot office building without any
11:11:28 difficulties, without coming to you for requesting
11:11:32 exception.
11:11:32 This is currently zoned CI, which is very heavy
11:11:35 intensive use.
11:11:36 And we could have garages and other things like that.
11:11:39 It's not the appropriate use anymore as we go into
11:11:42 redevelopment effort and try to create a new gateway
11:11:46 in the Kennedy district.
11:11:47 The issue regarding the signage, we picked the
11:11:53 smallest components of all of the different packages
11:11:57 that Starbucks had approved.
11:12:00 And what happens is, when you calculate 12-and-a-half

11:12:04 square feet, that's approximately three by four feet.
11:12:08 That's very small.
11:12:10 And to take a commercial enterprise that's trying to
11:12:14 compete with things like the save right across the
11:12:22 street, I'm just talking about in visibility.
11:12:25 They are not competing in terms -- you know, you've
11:12:29 got McDonald's, it's not going to come anywhere near
11:12:34 complying.
11:12:35 You have a variety of things.
11:12:37 When you're trying to get something started, you need
11:12:40 some more flexibility.
11:12:41 As we go down the road, you can continue to adjust the
11:12:46 guidelines back and forth as you see fit.
11:12:48 But we have a lot of difficulty trying to make all
11:12:51 these things work.
11:12:53 And it's not unique to this project.
11:12:56 It's going to be the same for other projects.
11:13:00 We provided you with some elevations here showing the
11:13:02 outdoor dining, the screening wall.
11:13:06 These are the views from the rear, which typically are
11:13:09 not your best views, but we've got landscaping back
11:13:12 there that's going to deal with that.

11:13:14 This is a perspective showing you the indoor/outdoor
11:13:19 dining, and showing you a little bit better about how
11:13:22 that functions and how it relates to the street.
11:13:24 The intent of the Kennedy overlay was to make things
11:13:28 relate to the street.
11:13:29 So we've attached this with a high wall and a canopy
11:13:33 here back to the main building.
11:13:35 So you really have created that indoor/outdoor
11:13:38 ambience that is encouraging people to come out of the
11:13:42 inside, go on the outsides and begin making this
11:13:44 livable activity space.
11:13:46 And I think that based upon the constraints we were
11:13:49 faced with, we've done a good job at that.
11:13:59 There are people here in support of this, I think you
11:14:03 received a fax earlier this morning from Robert Allen
11:14:06 from the homeowner association that this is in his
11:14:08 district, and Mr. Robert Allen called.
11:14:11 He could not make the meeting today but wanted to
11:14:14 express his complete support for this item and Lum
11:14:17 brothers.
11:14:17 Mr. Allen went on to say he has enjoyed very much
11:14:19 working with them on the project and the community has

11:14:22 really blossomed and has brought other developers into
11:14:25 the community.
11:14:26 Mr. Allen was very apologetic for not being here today
11:14:29 but wanted to express his support and thinks this will
11:14:31 be a good project.
11:14:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Michelini.
11:14:35 I am so excited.
11:14:36 This is the first time we've seen anybody have the
11:14:39 ability to sit on Kennedy and consume coffee.
11:14:42 This is great.
11:14:43 My question to you is, in an effort to make it even a
11:14:46 little bit better, I was looking at your site plan,
11:14:49 and it appears that you have the ability pretty easily
11:14:54 and probably will save you money, to move the parking
11:14:59 to lose two or four spaces, to move the parking a
11:15:03 little bit to the South and create a little bit more
11:15:06 of a green barrier between the sidewalk and your
11:15:09 parking on the western portion of your site plan.
11:15:13 It would soften the experience for pedestrians.
11:15:16 We really are trying to get away, as you know, from
11:15:19 having parking smack on the street.
11:15:22 Your neighbors didn't do this, but frankly, they were

11:15:25 built prior to the creation of the Kennedy Boulevard
11:15:28 overlay.
11:15:28 Just as this site is going to morph from a car lot
11:15:33 into something that's much more in tune with what we
11:15:36 see as a flavor and future of Kennedy, I believe that
11:15:40 over time, some of your other neighbors will change.
11:15:43 And this is how we accomplish the Kennedy plan.
11:15:46 Over time with each request, we try to make it better,
11:15:52 more pedestrian friendly.
11:15:53 I think your outdoor dining area is great and I
11:16:00 suggest to you it will be really popular and if you
11:16:02 move your parking spaces a little further to the South
11:16:05 and lose two or four spaces, you would have the
11:16:07 opportunity to put another couple of table and chairs
11:16:10 out there, which would make your customers very happy.
11:16:13 And you are going to be a pedestrian location as well
11:16:20 as a car driven location.
11:16:22 You're also on one of our major East-West transit
11:16:26 routes.
11:16:27 So I really see this as being a very dynamic store,
11:16:33 but perhaps if you got rid of a couple of parking
11:16:35 spaces and created additional green, it would address

11:16:39 your waiver request for greenspace, it would address
11:16:42 our concern for the Kennedy setback, and it would
11:16:45 create an even higher quality project.
11:16:50 >> The difficulty that we have is that we're at the
11:16:52 minimum that's required for Starbucks.
11:16:55 By the corporate office.
11:16:57 20 spaces is the minimum to be able to carry the name
11:17:01 and take the franchise.
11:17:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But, Mr. Michelini, I go to
11:17:06 Starbucks in other locations that are completely
11:17:09 urban.
11:17:11 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Really, the one on Westshore.
11:17:15 >> I'm not disputing you.
11:17:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let me talk to them.
11:17:20 >> Any amendments to this site plan take us back to
11:17:23 square one.
11:17:24 We also have some serious issues about timing.
11:17:27 We have been amending this site plan for over a year.
11:17:32 We're now bordering on a year-and-a-half to two years
11:17:36 being in the process.
11:17:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I see our landscape person here,
11:17:41 Mary Bryson.

11:17:49 >> I have not been sworn.
11:17:50 (Oath administered by clerk).
11:17:53 >> Yes, I do.
11:17:53 The greenspace waiver is a reduction of the buffers,
11:17:58 providing more --
11:17:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can you speak louder?
11:18:01 Our air conditioning just came on.
11:18:03 >> The greenspace waiver that is on the plan is to
11:18:06 cover the reduction in the buffers.
11:18:09 Vehicle use area adjacent to abutting properties and
11:18:12 vehicle use area adjacent to right-of-way is required
11:18:15 to have a three and eight-foot buffer.
11:18:18 They are not providing that.
11:18:19 So that greenspace waiver is to cover that only.
11:18:22 They meet their 20% greenspace required by code for
11:18:26 the vehicle use area.
11:18:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thanks for the clarification.
11:18:32 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, Ms. Saul-Sena made a good
11:18:34 suggestion, actually, which is what I would suggest we
11:18:38 might do is pass this on first reading today.
11:18:42 Ms. Saul-Sena can see if she can convince Starbucks to
11:18:45 give up two spaces.

11:18:47 If they do, it's a simple matter to change at the
11:18:49 second hearing.
11:18:50 If they don't, then we can make a decision at the
11:18:53 second hearing whether or not it's a big enough issue
11:18:56 that we vote it up or down.
11:19:02 >>JULIA COLE: Make that kind of change between first
11:19:05 and second reading would require us to go back to
11:19:08 first reading.
11:19:09 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, go back to first reading.
11:19:12 If Starbucks says it's okay and we give up the two
11:19:15 weeks that it will cost us for what will probably be
11:19:18 unanimous consent on the Council, then they may be
11:19:21 very willing to do that.
11:19:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'd be willing to call them,
11:19:26 Mr. Michelini.
11:19:27 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Maybe, Ms. Cole, maybe you want to
11:19:29 chime in on this.
11:19:32 Clearly, contacting a Council member between first and
11:19:34 second reading while this is an open matter
11:19:37 constitutes --
11:19:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll announce it.
11:19:40 It will be very public.

11:19:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It constitutes an ex parte
11:19:43 communication, which requires a disclosure.
11:19:46 Again, an ex parte communication even under the state
11:19:49 statute does not necessarily cure prejudice.
11:19:57 It just shifts the burden somewhat.
11:19:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm willing to take that on, and
11:20:00 I'll invite Allen and Jana to join me on the
11:20:03 conference call.
11:20:05 >> We have really struggled with the site plan.
11:20:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I appreciate that.
11:20:09 I really struggled with the Kennedy Boulevard overlay.
11:20:12 We worked on it for 20 years.
11:20:14 >> We were there with you, Linda.
11:20:16 We were pioneers on every step of developing that
11:20:19 code.
11:20:21 What I'm telling you now is the code needs to be
11:20:24 adjusted.
11:20:25 It's not quite right, because other projects will have
11:20:27 the same problem that we're having.
11:20:30 When we start doing -- what Mary is talking about, the
11:20:33 buffer, she's talking about the buffer of the drive
11:20:36 aisle.

11:20:36 She's talking about the buffer back here because we
11:20:40 had to push the driveways back to make the turning
11:20:43 radiuses work back over here.
11:20:46 So it's not just a simple matter of lopping off two
11:20:49 spaces and saying we're going to put greenspace in
11:20:52 there.
11:20:52 That's why we put this low wall in here with heavy,
11:20:56 very heavy landscaping in here.
11:20:59 It's not the width, but it's the intensity of the
11:21:01 landscaping being provided that mitigates for that.
11:21:04 And that's where the view is.
11:21:05 That's why we broke it up to provide for this
11:21:10 indoor/outdoor space that mitigates for other issues.
11:21:15 What we're asking for is for some relief and not to
11:21:18 have to go back and readjust the site plan again and
11:21:21 again and again.
11:21:23 >>JULIA COLE: Julia Cole, Legal Department.
11:21:25 I do feel obligated to say on the record,
11:21:28 notwithstanding that I understand Ms. Saul-Sena is
11:21:30 trying to do something positive, when you make that
11:21:32 phone call, you in essence become an advocate for this
11:21:35 applicant, and it puts you in a very difficult

11:21:38 position.
11:21:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I delegate you to making the phone
11:21:43 call on my behalf in the same position.
11:21:46 >>JULIA COLE: I don't want to be put in that position
11:21:49 either.
11:21:51 The proper request would be for the purpose of the
11:21:54 record and ensure that we have an appropriate hearing,
11:21:57 that you can request this applicant between first and
11:22:01 second reading to see if that's something that can be
11:22:04 accomplished.
11:22:05 If it's something that can be accomplished, you should
11:22:07 contact Land Development coordination.
11:22:10 We'll quickly try and get the site plan changed and
11:22:13 bring it back to you on first reading.
11:22:15 If not, then he has the opportunity to have this heard
11:22:20 in this forum on first and on second reading.
11:22:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
11:22:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A couple of things.
11:22:29 For one thing, Melanie, you were up at the podium a
11:22:33 minute ago.
11:22:34 You were up on the podium a minute ago and you gave
11:22:38 some indication that the alley access, and there's a

11:22:40 reason I'm bringing this up as related to the parking
11:22:43 spaces, as related to buffering Kennedy.
11:22:46 The alley access is not critical to the circulation in
11:22:49 this project.
11:22:50 You said that was the option that the developer has
11:22:54 taken.
11:22:55 >> Correct.
11:22:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And why is that your opinion?
11:22:59 Because if we give them the Dakota Avenue access,
11:23:02 that's adequate?
11:23:04 >> Correct.
11:23:04 They can fully function their site with only the
11:23:07 Dakota Avenue access.
11:23:09 We've been going through this for a year.
11:23:15 Everybody involved has really tried to work on this
11:23:18 project as best as we could.
11:23:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here is my point, Council, if you
11:23:22 look at the alley access, that takes up, in my
11:23:25 opinion, probably two or three spaces, potential
11:23:28 spaces.
11:23:29 So if you close off the alley access, ingress and
11:23:33 egress, Melanie will point to that, if you close that

11:23:37 off, then you can build in an additional space or two,
11:23:41 you know, further to the North, obviously, not
11:23:44 necessarily in the loop, but further -- right where
11:23:47 the green is.
11:23:48 Right there.
11:23:49 You can probably build in a space or two and then you
11:23:51 can eliminate a space or two up on the Kennedy side.
11:23:55 That would create some additional buffer.
11:23:58 Might come closer.
11:24:03 Too creative?
11:24:05 >> There's not sufficient room to allow back out in
11:24:07 that location.
11:24:08 Even if you closed it off, all it would do is not
11:24:11 allow him to have that waiver anymore.
11:24:14 It wouldn't create any more additional greenspace.
11:24:17 It wouldn't create any more parking spaces.
11:24:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: At least one parking space, one or
11:24:23 two parking spaces there?
11:24:24 Is that something we can waive.
11:24:30 >> He's not deficient in parking.
11:24:32 Remember, he's over five spaces.
11:24:34 His 20 spaces are what his client wants.

11:24:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The corporate.
11:24:38 Maybe I'm being too creative then.
11:24:40 Here is my point.
11:24:41 We're saying, you know, let's contact Starbucks.
11:24:44 Let's see if they'll give.
11:24:46 I don't understand that.
11:24:47 Who cares what Starbucks says.
11:24:50 Let me finish.
11:24:51 If we have a policy, if Ms. Saul-Sena has labored for
11:24:55 the last how many years --
11:24:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: 20.
11:24:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 20 years putting together this
11:25:00 Kennedy -- Kennedy overlay district and we have a
11:25:06 policy, then I don't care if it's Starbucks or anybody
11:25:10 else, that's what we should be doing.
11:25:12 And this is one of the first opportunities to do it.
11:25:15 Do we want a Starbucks here or some other similar
11:25:17 coffee shop?
11:25:18 Yes.
11:25:19 That would be a nice thing.
11:25:20 Whether or not Starbucks has a policy of 20 spaces and
11:25:23 we say that's too many spaces, tighten it up a little

11:25:27 bit, I think that's Council's decision, not Starbucks.
11:25:30 >> If I could go back to the record for a second.
11:25:33 It was the meetings with the transportation department
11:25:37 that encouraged us to use the alley as access.
11:25:41 It's not a principal access.
11:25:44 It's a secondary access.
11:25:45 What happens is, this is not a left turn into the
11:25:47 alley.
11:25:48 This is a right turn on the downtown inbound traffic.
11:25:51 If you miss this, then that's where you're going to
11:25:55 go.
11:25:55 And you most likely are going to miss this.
11:25:57 So the minimal amount of traffic that's going on here,
11:26:01 we're making a lot about this, but one of the
11:26:03 residents who owns properties further to the South is
11:26:06 here to speak about what they think about the use of
11:26:08 the alley.
11:26:09 I mean, they are sitting here.
11:26:10 If we could go to the audience, at least let other
11:26:13 people weigh in on this, and then I can --
11:26:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't think he necessarily owns
11:26:17 every property down at the end of the alley.

11:26:21 >> There are only two that access the property.
11:26:23 There are two residences that access the alley.
11:26:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: There are other properties that
11:26:27 abut the alley.
11:26:28 >> That's correct.
11:26:29 The other one -- further back is the church, and then
11:26:32 there's a commercial building all the way back at the
11:26:35 corner and then two town houses that access the alley
11:26:37 that we develop the project on.
11:26:40 >> Melanie Calloway, transportation.
11:26:42 I just wanted to clarify for the record that we had
11:26:45 seen no less than seven site plans on this property in
11:26:50 seven different configurations.
11:26:52 At one point it was advantageous for him to access the
11:26:56 alley.
11:26:57 At this time, this plan, it is not.
11:26:58 I also just want to clarify, there are three
11:27:02 residences, town homes that only front the alley.
11:27:04 You can see the three right here.
11:27:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Michelini, you probably rezoned
11:27:11 one of them.
11:27:14 >> Melanie, if you could come back up.

11:27:19 In looking at this, the thought of having two-way
11:27:24 traffic through that area where the drive-thru is in
11:27:27 addition to drive-thru traffic, I just don't see that.
11:27:30 From my perspective, you need to either have access on
11:27:33 the alley or directly onto Kennedy to have a smooth
11:27:38 flow of traffic in and out of there.
11:27:40 I'm assuming you don't want an access onto Kennedy.
11:27:43 If you could elaborate a little bit more on why having
11:27:47 this alley exit and entrance is not necessarily
11:27:51 appropriate for this site.
11:27:53 >> Melanie Calloway, transportation.
11:27:55 The reason why, I look at it this way.
11:27:58 When people go into the site, it's fine.
11:28:00 It's exiting the site.
11:28:01 How are you exiting this site?
11:28:03 You can exit the site if you want to go westbound, you
11:28:06 can try to go to make a left onto Kennedy to go
11:28:10 westbound.
11:28:10 But you wouldn't want to do that.
11:28:12 So most likely what you would be doing is either
11:28:15 traveling down the alley, or you would be traveling
11:28:18 down Dakota.

11:28:19 So traveling down the alley westbound is one of your
11:28:23 options in this configuration.
11:28:25 If you didn't have the alley, that wouldn't be an
11:28:28 option.
11:28:28 You would have to go down Dakota.
11:28:30 You wouldn't be passing any residents to go -- now,
11:28:35 there are no residents here.
11:28:38 There's no opposition to that.
11:28:40 But I am here again to uphold the code.
11:28:42 And also the spacing aspect of making a left onto
11:28:47 Kennedy.
11:28:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Couldn't we have a no left turn
11:28:51 sign?
11:28:53 >> You could.
11:28:54 However, signs are about as good as being enforced by
11:28:57 police.
11:29:00 >> My question is more on the traffic flow on-site.
11:29:10 You are going to have basically -- the way this is
11:29:12 designed to realign to traffic in this area if we
11:29:16 close that access to the alley between the turn for
11:29:18 the drive-thru and the edge of the property.
11:29:23 I mean, how does that work?

11:29:26 >> They would have no access to the alley.
11:29:27 They would have to come in on the southern property.
11:29:30 They would have to go through the drive-thru, make an
11:29:34 exit there.
11:29:35 Or both in and out onto Dakota only.
11:29:43 >> I'm just trying to figure out how you will actually
11:29:46 get to park in the parking spaces when there's a line
11:29:49 in the drive-thru.
11:29:50 How when there's a line at the drive-thru does one
11:29:53 actually get to the parking spaces to use them?
11:29:56 >> My question to that would be, well, if you have a
11:29:58 queue line with the South driveway and alley, you'll
11:30:01 be locked in there, too.
11:30:06 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I stopped at the new Starbucks in
11:30:08 Seminole Heights all the time.
11:30:10 They have the same problem.
11:30:11 It's popular.
11:30:12 It's tough to get in and out of the driveway during
11:30:15 rush hour times, but it survives.
11:30:22 I want to hear from the audience.
11:30:24 It seems to me what we had talked about a few minutes
11:30:27 ago, pass it on first reading.

11:30:29 Let Ms. Saul-Sena, she's a Council member, she can
11:30:31 makes any telephone call she wants, any applicant she
11:30:35 wants as long as she discloses the off-the-record
11:30:37 conversation at the second hearing.
11:30:39 If she's able to convince them to give up the 20-space
11:30:44 requirement, great for her, we make that adjustment at
11:30:47 second reading.
11:30:48 If not, we vote it up or down at second reading.
11:30:51 At least she gives it a try.
11:30:53 I don't see what is wrong with that.
11:30:54 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, disclosing an ex parte
11:30:57 communication does not cure and absolve prejudice.
11:31:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I will tape it.
11:31:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: There's a miscommunication here.
11:31:07 This is not a public meeting issue.
11:31:09 This is not a Sunshine Law issue.
11:31:12 This is a due process issue.
11:31:15 If, for instance, what happens with Ms. Saul-Sena on
11:31:17 the basis of her ex parte communication causes Council
11:31:21 to change its vote between the first and second
11:31:25 reading, regardless of whether or not she discloses
11:31:28 it, it just shifts the burden of proof and complicates

11:31:31 the lawsuit.
11:31:32 It does not preclude --
11:31:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's not an appropriate role for
11:31:35 Council.
11:31:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you.
11:31:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's really not.
11:31:38 It's an appropriate role for staff.
11:31:39 You ask legal if they can do it.
11:31:41 But nobody asked staff.
11:31:42 So I suggest we have planners, if you want staff to
11:31:46 make -- ask the question.
11:31:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want Wilson Stair, our urban
11:31:52 design guy to call, because he has worked on the plan
11:31:55 and can he make an eloquent pitch.
11:31:57 >> Hello. I'm Laurel Morrow, and I now work for
11:31:59 Wilson Stair.
11:32:00 Nice to meet you all after watching you on TV for six
11:32:04 months.
11:32:04 I have been looking at the plan, and they have really
11:32:06 bent over backwards from what we've seen and I would
11:32:09 be very happy to contact them and very
11:32:12 enthusiastically on your behalf.

11:32:22 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone in the public want to speak on
11:32:24 this item?
11:32:25 Come up and speak.
11:32:28 >> Good morning, Council.
11:32:29 Marilyn DURST, 4044 Bayville Avenue.
11:32:33 I have been sworn.
11:32:35 There are so many things I want to say, I can't say
11:32:38 them in three minutes.
11:32:39 I'm going to ask if I can have 30 extra seconds so I
11:32:42 can also volunteer to make this contact with
11:32:45 Starbucks.
11:32:45 I am capable of persuasive speech.
11:32:48 I'll be more than happy to talk to them.
11:32:50 I'm going to do that on my own, of my own volition,
11:32:54 I'm going to do that and suggest they go along with
11:32:56 that.
11:32:59 There are technical issues.
11:33:01 Since I can't address them all.
11:33:03 I want to say I'm wholeheartedly in support of this.
11:33:06 The zoning issues, the various issues that have to do
11:33:09 with the Kennedy overlay district are eventually going
11:33:12 to have to be molded and the edges softened if we're

11:33:17 going to achieve in this district what we want to
11:33:20 achieve.
11:33:21 To deny this Starbucks, to deny John Lum who has been
11:33:25 such a friend and an advocate to that entire area,
11:33:29 because I go back to the time when John Lum went in to
11:33:32 the Courier City area and what we had were alleyways
11:33:37 and crack houses with prostitutes and drug dealers
11:33:40 doing business, what we now have are beautiful town
11:33:43 homes with accessible, lighted, landscaped alleyways.
11:33:49 I think if any developer in this city is going to do
11:33:52 this responsibly, it's going to be these properties
11:33:56 and John Lum.
11:33:57 Anything I can do to advocate for that, I am here to
11:34:00 advocate for that.
11:34:01 We need this Starbucks to be there at Seminole
11:34:04 Heights.
11:34:04 Thank you very much.
11:34:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone else like to speak?
11:34:13 >> Kevin Treal.
11:34:15 120 South Rome.
11:34:16 I have not been sworn in.
11:34:18 (Oath administered by clerk).

11:34:24 >> Yes.
11:34:25 I put some money down and had this town house built
11:34:29 2004.
11:34:30 I really like the location and would love for the
11:34:32 Starbucks.
11:34:33 Definitely for it.
11:34:34 Talk to our little homeowners association.
11:34:36 There are three of us in the back.
11:34:38 The reason why I chose the rear is because nobody is
11:34:41 really parking on there.
11:34:42 And I would not -- if it was me, I would not change
11:34:45 this.
11:34:46 We really need parking everywhere, no matter where you
11:34:49 go.
11:34:49 I've been to several of the Starbucks locations here
11:34:52 in Tampa, and I've been to the one in Seminole
11:34:55 Heights.
11:34:56 They actually could use more parking.
11:34:57 They are starting to park on Central Avenue.
11:35:00 Again, I would not change it.
11:35:01 I don't have a problem with them going down the
11:35:03 alleyway.

11:35:04 I know nobody can park.
11:35:06 I know they are widening an extra five feet.
11:35:09 Again, I am for it.
11:35:10 I talked to Valerie Call who lives there.
11:35:13 Bianca Sparks next door.
11:35:15 They could not be here at the meeting, but they are
11:35:17 for this.
11:35:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a favor to ask you, and that
11:35:23 is, if you could state that when you go to the
11:35:29 Starbucks, you'll go as a pedestrian.
11:35:34 Because that's something that they really need to
11:35:36 understand is that there are folks within walking
11:35:39 distance who will not be taking up a parking space and
11:35:42 not queuing in the line.
11:35:44 >> I'm not that lazy.
11:35:44 I definitely love to walk.
11:35:47 People will do meetings there.
11:35:49 They'll go there to sign a contract.
11:35:51 Maybe they'll go there for lunch.
11:35:52 People like to hang out at these places.
11:35:55 I go to the one in Hyde Park.
11:35:57 I go to all of them.

11:35:59 It's great.
11:36:00 Need my coffee.
11:36:01 This will be nice for the whole Kennedy corridor that
11:36:03 you guys are working on to really clean things up.
11:36:06 I don't have a problem with them driving down the
11:36:08 alleyway.
11:36:09 We're talking it's like one block.
11:36:11 It's not very long whatsoever back there.
11:36:14 If they are going on Dakota, it will be a mess because
11:36:17 they are already going in and out there at the
11:36:19 McDonald's.
11:36:21 It's crazy there about lunchtime.
11:36:22 Thank you.
11:36:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:36:23 Anyone else like to speak?
11:36:27 Petitioner, do you want to say something else?
11:36:30 >> All I was going to say was, you know, when the
11:36:33 Starbucks came in for Seminole Heights, they had the
11:36:36 Seminole Heights overlay district, historic district,
11:36:40 it met virtually 10 or 20 percent of the guidelines.
11:36:44 Yet when the neighbors came up and they asked you to
11:36:46 waive all of these different requirements, you waived

11:36:50 them.
11:36:51 We're not asking for that drastic of waivers.
11:36:54 We're asking for the same kind of consideration that
11:36:57 when you deal with various projects and when you deal
11:37:00 with overlay districts, the rules are brand-new.
11:37:04 We just now figured out how to make this work, and
11:37:08 when you start asking Melanie, can we do this and do
11:37:11 that, anytime you make one change, you're affecting
11:37:14 either a technical standard or overlay district
11:37:17 standard or zoning classification problem.
11:37:20 And until those issues regarding overlays, technical
11:37:24 standards and the zoning codes are integrated and you
11:37:28 know exactly how to meet the various codes, you're
11:37:31 going to have these issues, and you're going to have a
11:37:34 long list of waivers that make it look like the
11:37:37 project is a bad project.
11:37:38 It's not a bad project.
11:37:41 It's a sensitive project, we have mitigated for the
11:37:44 various things we're asking to be waivered.
11:37:47 We've gone over and above what is required.
11:37:49 We will contact to see if any objection to waiving two
11:37:53 spaces.

11:37:54 My last conversation went on and they were quite
11:37:56 adamant that 20 spaces was the minimum in order to
11:38:00 maintain the franchise.
11:38:02 And we have, you know, I think everybody from the
11:38:05 staff has told you that.
11:38:07 We've gone to the extra mile on every single thing.
11:38:11 And we haven't always agreed, but we're finally here
11:38:15 with agreement on most things, except for the waiver.
11:38:18 And we're asking for your indulgence, if you would
11:38:21 please allow us to move forward with the project.
11:38:24 Not delay this project.
11:38:26 Time is of critical essence here.
11:38:29 The visibility of that on Kennedy Boulevard will send
11:38:32 a loud message to other folks to get back in here,
11:38:35 that there's a viable market here.
11:38:37 You have to keep in mind, our peak traffic is inbound.
11:38:41 It's a.m.
11:38:42 It's morning.
11:38:43 It's not outbound.
11:38:44 There are not people turning left to go back, drive
11:38:48 into town to get Starbucks to go back out.
11:38:52 They are driving to stop at Starbucks on their way

11:38:56 downtown.
11:38:57 Our traffic analysis shows that.
11:38:59 Our traffic engineer is here if you have any questions
11:39:01 of him that clearly demonstrates the issue is not the
11:39:05 evening where people are trying to go out.
11:39:07 The issue is in the morning.
11:39:09 And are you willing to accept our mitigation plan as
11:39:12 sufficient to meet the code keeping in mind you can't
11:39:15 meet the code because of the conflicts within the
11:39:18 three different jurisdictional issues?
11:39:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Michelini, I am willing to go
11:39:24 along with the waivers that you've requested.
11:39:28 I note on the site plan that there are three on-street
11:39:31 parking spaces on Dakota.
11:39:33 Now, I don't know whether you counted those in your
11:39:36 numbers to satisfy the Starbucks people.
11:39:39 >> We did not.
11:39:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, hey, there you have three
11:39:42 extra parking spaces.
11:39:43 If you take two way from the 20, you have 18 there.
11:39:46 You have three more.
11:39:47 You end up one to the good with 21 spaces.

11:39:49 So my suggestion to you is that should be part of your
11:39:51 conversation.
11:39:52 >> Well, we still, as I mentioned in my presentation,
11:39:55 we still have to file for permission to do that with
11:40:00 the city.
11:40:01 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm talking about when you talk to
11:40:03 the Starbucks people.
11:40:05 >> I can't guarantee them spaces that the staff hasn't
11:40:08 approved.
11:40:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's on your site plan.
11:40:09 If the Council approves the site plan.
11:40:11 >> No, those are specifically excluded from our site
11:40:14 plan.
11:40:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm talking real-life.
11:40:16 If there are people parking on Dakota as indicated on
11:40:20 your site plan, that could strengthen your argument.
11:40:22 But my concern is -- and this is for the lawyers who
11:40:25 are now not paying attention -- my concern for the
11:40:27 lawyers is, Mr. Michelini is most concerned with
11:40:32 getting this to happen as soon as possible.
11:40:34 He does not want to have a two-week delay.
11:40:37 So maybe when our staff, our urban design staff talks

11:40:41 to Starbucks to talk about this whole issue, they can
11:40:44 point out the three parking spaces on Dakota and say
11:40:47 if we lose two in the main lot, we gain two there.
11:40:51 So I just want to share that.
11:40:52 Thanks.
11:40:54 It's really good.
11:40:55 We're supporting it.
11:40:56 We're accepting your big sign.
11:40:58 Accepting your lack of setbacks.
11:40:59 Accepting your PVC fence, masonry.
11:41:02 We are giving a lot, lot, lot and I think you should
11:41:06 be appreciative of that.
11:41:09 >> I'm always appreciative.
11:41:11 Always.
11:41:12 >>MARY ALVAREZ: I see note 12 as far as the three
11:41:17 spaces on the street, it says that the transportation
11:41:21 division is the sole authority to allow on-street
11:41:25 parking spaces and approval of such spaces must be
11:41:28 obtained through the right-of-way permitting process
11:41:31 and the spaces included are conceptual in nature and
11:41:35 shall require final approval of the City of Tampa
11:41:37 transportation division and the stormwater division.

11:41:40 Now, this is the first time I've ever seen that we've
11:41:43 asked them to waive two parking spaces.
11:41:46 We're always asking for more parking spaces.
11:41:51 I can't support that, Ms. Saul-Sena.
11:41:52 I think the guy has gone way and beyond what we've
11:41:55 asked him to do.
11:41:57 He's been here since February 3rd, 2006.
11:42:00 Here we are a year and three weeks later, so I think
11:42:05 we're being -- for two parking spaces, I just can't
11:42:09 believe this.
11:42:09 So I won't support it.
11:42:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You won't support what?
11:42:14 >>MARY ALVAREZ: She makes a motion for him to go talk
11:42:16 to whoever, I won't support that.
11:42:18 It's ridiculous.
11:42:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, what I heard Ms. Saul-Sena
11:42:21 say was she was willing to support all of it.
11:42:23 And I have some serious problems with that, but in
11:42:27 deference to the queen of Kennedy, I will go along
11:42:33 with Ms. Saul-Sena on that.
11:42:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby.
11:42:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I just want to remind

11:42:40 Council again, just for the record, that Mr. Michelini
11:42:45 does have the right to request Council vote up or down
11:42:48 today on the petition on the site.
11:42:50 But you were talking about not wanting to delay this.
11:42:56 If Council comes back in two weeks after all these
11:42:58 conversations and it requires a site plan change, then
11:43:03 you just have to recognize then, "A," it has to be
11:43:06 agreed to by the petitioner.
11:43:08 "B," then it causes the need for the delay to come
11:43:12 back with the additional site plan or the revised site
11:43:14 plan.
11:43:14 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second to close
11:43:15 the public hearing.
11:43:16 All in favor, aye.
11:43:17 [Motion Carried]
11:43:31 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm trying to decide what the
11:43:32 appropriate tiara is for Kennedy Boulevard.
11:43:33 An ordinance rezoning property in the general vicinity
11:43:35 of 1600 West Kennedy Boulevard in the City of Tampa,
11:43:37 Florida, and more particularly described in section 1
11:43:40 from zoning district classification CI, commercial
11:43:43 intensive to PD, planned development office and retail,

11:43:46 providing an effective date.
11:43:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Have a motion and second.
11:43:47 All in favor of the motion, aye.
11:43:49 Opposed, nay.
11:43:50 [Motion Carried]
11:43:51 >> Thank you very much.
11:43:56 Greatly appreciative of your support.
11:43:57 >>GWEN MILLER: We appreciate your understanding.
11:44:00 We'll go to information from Council members.
11:44:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Madam Chair, there was one item
11:44:07 that I was going to tell you date, item 8, I think.
11:44:18 Actually, it was item 5.
11:44:20 So item 5, parks has asked to continue that to
11:44:23 April 5th.
11:44:24 That's my motion.
11:44:25 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:44:27 All in favor of the motion, aye.
11:44:29 [Motion Carried]
11:44:30 Mr. Dingfelder.
11:44:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes, our very own Connie Anderson
11:44:36 up in the Legal Department is the proud grandmother of
11:44:39 Katie Kelly who is 18 years old and just won the 2007

11:44:45 miss teen Tampa contest.
11:44:46 So we're going to bring Katie in.
11:44:49 There were 253 entries.
11:44:51 She's number one, and she's going to go on to the miss
11:44:53 teen Florida competition coming up.
11:44:58 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:44:59 All in favor, aye.
11:45:00 [Motion Carried]
11:45:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll come up with a date with
11:45:03 Connie later.
11:45:03 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Just one thing, I hope everybody knows
11:45:06 that at 3:30 this afternoon, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays
11:45:13 is going to have an announcement that they selected
11:45:15 the West Tampa little league field as the next site
11:45:18 for the teen field renovation program, dedicates to
11:45:21 rebuilding youth fields throughout the Tampa Bay
11:45:24 region.
11:45:27 Rays outfielder Karl Crawford, the City of Tampa, Jay
11:45:31 LIOTTA and metro PCS and Bryant heating and cooling
11:45:36 are on the project.
11:45:37 Renovation work includes a total makeover of the three
11:45:39 fields in West Tampa little league complex by the rays

11:45:42 ground crew, including new bases, pitching mounds and
11:45:45 pitching rubbers and installation of a new bleacher
11:45:48 roof on one set of bleachers and a new concession
11:45:50 stand.
11:45:51 Upon completion of this project, the rays will sponsor
11:45:54 baseball clinic for the West Tampa little league
11:45:56 hosted by rays players including Karl Crawford.
11:46:00 I'm going to be there at 3:30 this afternoon.
11:46:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Just make sure you are back at 5:30.
11:46:08 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Anyway, that's what is going on today
11:46:10 at 3:30.
11:46:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else?
11:46:12 >>MARY ALVAREZ: That's it.
11:46:12 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Nothing, Madam Chairman.
11:46:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Briefly.
11:46:15 Last Friday, I attended the Downtown Partnership's
11:46:18 forum on urban redevelopment.
11:46:20 Every speaker said, they all agreed that we the city
11:46:24 should not be requiring people to put in parking, that
11:46:28 it elevates -- that if we're trying to encourage
11:46:31 transit and other things that if they want to put in
11:46:34 parking, fine, but we should not be requiring it as

11:46:36 part of our zoning code.
11:46:38 We not only require it, the last time we took a look
11:46:40 at things, we upped it, which is completely going in
11:46:43 the wrong direction.
11:46:44 Therefore, I would like to move that when the chapter
11:46:46 27 changes -- and I've heard from a number of downtown
11:46:49 developers that they hate this requirement.
11:46:51 So my motion is that when the chapter 27 changes come
11:46:54 back to us, which will be pretty soon, that we make no
11:47:00 requirements for parking in downtown in the Channel
11:47:02 District.
11:47:06 Would somebody like to second that?
11:47:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
11:47:09 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:47:11 All in favor of the motion, aye.
11:47:12 [Motion Carried]
11:47:14 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I just voted on it, I guess.
11:47:16 This is only to bring this back for consideration.
11:47:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: As part of the chapter 27 changes.
11:47:23 Secondly, this weekend, Tampa is alive with art
11:47:26 events.
11:47:26 The Gasparilla sidewalk art festival will be down by

11:47:31 the river back to its previous location at Curtis
11:47:35 Hixon Park.
11:47:37 And the Gasparilla film festival was kicked off last
11:47:39 night.
11:47:40 This is the first annual.
11:47:41 And it was very exciting to see the red carpet rolled
11:47:45 out on Franklin Street.
11:47:46 And I want to specifically commend the Parks
11:47:48 Department, because the Film Festival event began at
11:47:53 the Tampa Theater and had an after opening party at
11:47:57 Sligh, which is four blocks to the North along
11:48:01 Franklin Street.
11:48:02 This area had been looking very scraggly.
11:48:04 Parks went in and planted a number of trees, filled
11:48:07 the holes in the sidewalk, spruced things up, and it
11:48:09 looked great.
11:48:10 So I want to specifically thank parks for making those
11:48:14 improvements.
11:48:14 That's it.
11:48:15 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I don't have anything today.
11:48:21 >> Move to receive and file all documents.
11:48:22 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.

11:48:24 All in favor, aye.
11:48:25 [Motion Carried]
11:48:26 We stand adjourned until 1:30.
11:48:37 (The meeting was recessed at 11:48 a.m.)


TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
THURSDAY, MARCH 1, 2007
1:30 P.M. SESSION

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01:23:23
01:40:14 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Here.
01:40:15 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Here.
01:40:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
01:40:17 And Ms. Saul-Sena is attending the Tourist Development
01:40:20 Council meeting.
01:40:22 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.
01:40:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
01:40:26 Mr. David Smith.
01:40:28 >>DAVID SMITH: Good afternoon, David Smith, City
01:40:29 Attorney.
01:40:30 I would like to go ahead and get started.

01:40:32 I believe this is the only item on your agenda this
01:40:35 afternoon.
01:40:35 What I'll briefly do is tell you how we'll proceed in
01:40:39 order to get right to it.
01:40:40 We're fortunate today to have county commissioner Ken
01:40:42 Hagan to come here and speak about the efforts ongoing
01:40:46 in the county and to address the issue of how we can
01:40:49 work cooperatively to fund this issue.
01:40:53 I'll walk you through the ordinance and its provisions
01:40:55 so we can refresh your recollection on what the
01:40:57 variables are.
01:40:58 If we need to, we'll have an additional explanation of
01:41:01 the differences between the city and county
01:41:03 ordinances.
01:41:04 Obviously, there's a long and common border, and we
01:41:07 need to make sure that that works well together.
01:41:09 We will have a brief presentation, also, on the
01:41:12 pending Florida legislation, so you know what is
01:41:14 contemplated in Tallahassee.
01:41:15 We'll have some comments from law enforcement
01:41:17 agencies, Tampa Police Department will have a
01:41:20 representative here.

01:41:20 And there will also be a representative who will be
01:41:23 here to answer questions.
01:41:24 The Florida department of corrections, I'm not
01:41:26 entirely sure whether they were able to make it today
01:41:28 or not.
01:41:28 If they are, they'll be here to answer any questions.
01:41:31 We'll also have a representative from the Hillsborough
01:41:32 County sheriff's office.
01:41:33 I believe that will be Karl Hawkins, colonel Karl
01:41:36 Hawkins.
01:41:37 I don't think he plans a presentation, but he'll be
01:41:40 here to answer any questions.
01:41:41 And finally, we will also have a presentation from
01:41:44 Dr. Leo Carter, which will include a Powerpoint and
01:41:48 he'll be available to answer any questions.
01:41:50 He is an expert who works in this area.
01:41:52 Not to have any further delay, what I would like to do
01:41:54 is have commissioner Ken Hagan speak to you.
01:41:56 Thank you.
01:42:00 >> Madam Chair, City Council, I'm Ken Hagan, 2107 mag
01:42:04 land manor drive, Tampa, Florida, 33613.
01:42:08 I'm delighted to be here this afternoon.

01:42:10 I must say, first of all, this is the first time that
01:42:14 I've spoken on this side of the DAIS, so please pardon
01:42:17 me if I come across a little nervous.
01:42:20 Now I know how our citizens feel when they come and
01:42:23 speak during public comment.
01:42:24 But I want to thank Councilman Harrison for inviting
01:42:27 me here this afternoon and I also want to thank him
01:42:31 for his leadership in championing stronger sexual
01:42:34 predator laws in our community.
01:42:37 Like you, I strongly feel that we can and we should do
01:42:40 everything we can to protect our children, and that
01:42:44 sentiment certainly is shared throughout Florida.
01:42:47 That is why I imagine that over 60 governments in our
01:42:51 state have adopted ordinances that are stronger than
01:42:54 state law.
01:42:56 It's unfortunate, but all too often, we hear and read
01:42:59 about how the county and city do not always get along.
01:43:05 And we rarely hear about the times that our
01:43:08 governments work closely together.
01:43:11 After Councilman Harrison brought up a discussion
01:43:14 several months ago to your board about strengthening
01:43:17 the sexual predator laws, we spoke several times on

01:43:20 the phone about -- we really felt that this provided
01:43:25 an excellent opportunity for our boards and our
01:43:29 governments to work together in order to come up with
01:43:32 an ordinance that would be for the best for the
01:43:36 entire -- our entire community.
01:43:39 So soon after, I brought the issue to the county
01:43:42 commission, and we strongly felt that the county
01:43:46 should work closely with the city and with law
01:43:50 enforcement in order to come up with an ordinance that
01:43:52 would be as consistent and compatible as possible with
01:43:56 the direction that the city was going while at the
01:43:59 same time, ensuring that whatever we adopted did not
01:44:04 create any unintended consequences.
01:44:07 So that is why from the county's perspective, we've
01:44:11 intentionally progressed somewhat cautiously in an
01:44:14 attempt to make sure that we understand what the
01:44:19 other -- what the city is doing.
01:44:20 The city understands what we're doing, and we're
01:44:22 ensuring that whatever ordinance we pass, will be
01:44:25 effective.
01:44:26 I'm not sure if everyone here realizes or not, but
01:44:30 there have been numerous meetings between our staffs

01:44:34 and law enforcement in an effort to come up with an
01:44:37 ordinance that will be as consistent as possible and
01:44:41 all I really want to do today is publicly thank
01:44:45 Council for moving forward in this direction.
01:44:47 And I also wanted to thank your staff and TPD for
01:44:51 working so hard to come up with an ordinance that
01:44:54 would be in the best interest for everyone in our
01:44:57 community.
01:44:57 So with that, I just, again, want to thank you for
01:45:00 moving forward.
01:45:01 And I look forward to working together with you as
01:45:04 both of our governments put together an ordinance that
01:45:07 will be as consistent as possible and would be in the
01:45:10 best interest of our entire community.
01:45:12 Thank you.
01:45:14 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Thank you, Madam Chair.
01:45:15 Ken, thank you for coming down.
01:45:17 And I think that as you said, this is a good example
01:45:20 of how City Council can work very closely with the
01:45:24 county commission for the betterment of everyone.
01:45:27 And we appreciate your leadership at the county
01:45:30 commission level, and I think at the end of the day,

01:45:33 we'll have something that will protect our citizens,
01:45:36 protects your citizens, and is a great thing for
01:45:39 everyone concerned.
01:45:40 So thank you for what you've done at your level.
01:45:42 >> Well, thank you very much, Shawn.
01:45:44 I appreciate that.
01:45:44 You know, it's unfortunate that all too often it's the
01:45:51 negative stories that you hear and read about in the
01:45:53 paper.
01:45:53 But the reality is, our governments work closely
01:45:55 together on myriad of projects from transportation
01:45:58 projects, parks projects, many things.
01:46:00 Shawn and I have worked closely on different issues in
01:46:03 New Tampa.
01:46:04 Those don't always get the press, if you will, but
01:46:06 this is certainly an item that we can work closely for
01:46:09 everyone's benefit.
01:46:10 Thank you.
01:46:18 >> Thank you very much, commissioner.
01:46:19 I would like to echo one of the comments that
01:46:21 commissioner Hagan made, that is that there's a
01:46:23 tremendous amount of cooperation between the staffs.

01:46:25 We work very well with the County Attorney's office
01:46:28 and the staff over in the county.
01:46:30 We get a lot done.
01:46:31 We share ideas.
01:46:32 We share our thought processes.
01:46:35 I think as a consequence it allows us to do our job
01:46:38 more effectively.
01:46:39 It is unfortunate that only the differences tend to
01:46:42 get covered.
01:46:45 What I would like to do is briefly walk you through
01:46:47 the ordinance.
01:46:48 Now, what we have done, I recognize this ordinance has
01:46:50 gone through and may go through some more per
01:46:53 mutations.
01:46:54 But given the complexity and number of variables that
01:46:57 change, we need to have some kind of a structure to do
01:47:00 this.
01:47:00 I think the idea of using a draft ordinance is the
01:47:03 best way to accomplish it.
01:47:04 So we have that before you.
01:47:05 It should be in your packages.
01:47:07 You don't have it right now.

01:47:09 Julia, do you have extra copies?
01:47:33 It should also -- an additional copy was delivered
01:47:38 last night.
01:47:39 I apologize.
01:47:40 I thought you received the latest version as of last
01:47:44 night.
01:47:44 But Julia will go out and make some copies for you.
01:47:48 Hopefully it will be clear enough.
01:47:50 You won't really have time to read the text at this
01:47:53 point anyway.
01:47:54 But what I would tell you is on the cover page, we
01:47:58 have the whereas clauses that are essentially the
01:48:01 basis for your actions.
01:48:02 Whenever we have an ordinance of this nature where we
01:48:05 have the potential for implicating constitutional
01:48:10 rights or privacy or other personal rights we need to
01:48:14 make sure we have an adequate basis.
01:48:16 What we have in the first couple of pages is the legal
01:48:18 and factual basis for why we're proceeding as we're
01:48:22 proceeding.
01:48:22 You, of course, know that there are two Florida
01:48:24 statutes that are on point.

01:48:26 I think we've gone over that the last time.
01:48:28 No need to replicate that at this juncture.
01:48:31 One of the things I would point out to you because it
01:48:33 comes up in the ordinance, there's a Florida statute
01:48:36 856.021, essentially it's a statute that says, and
01:48:41 this I will read to you in pertinent part.
01:48:46 It is unlawful for any person to loiter or prowl in a
01:48:49 place at a time or in a manner not usual for
01:48:51 law-abiding individuals under circumstances that
01:48:55 warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or
01:48:58 immediate concern for the safety of persons or
01:49:00 property.
01:49:01 Now, the reason I'm reading that to you is that is in
01:49:04 state law, and we are going to refer to that in our
01:49:06 ordinance, because that is a standard we're going to
01:49:09 apply or currently have to apply in our ordinance that
01:49:15 says this is the sort of thing that sexual predators
01:49:17 and or offenders, depending upon what you decide,
01:49:19 cannot engage in certain localities.
01:49:22 So we're not simply saying your mere presence, and
01:49:25 this is an issue we need to talk about.
01:49:27 The county ordinance deals with a test, I call it

01:49:31 presence test.
01:49:32 Then with a variety of exceptions.
01:49:34 Tries to make the presence test not violative of
01:49:38 certain constitutional prohibitions.
01:49:40 Ours is a different test at this juncture.
01:49:43 It's prowling and loitering and our exceptions are
01:49:45 fewer as a consequence of that because we have the
01:49:48 state statute to apply.
01:49:50 Okay.
01:49:50 You've got additional recitals in your draft
01:49:53 ordinance, which are the predicate facts which are
01:49:57 causing you to be here today, the reasons why these
01:50:01 sorts of measures have been considered elsewhere, have
01:50:03 been adopted in various states and are included in
01:50:06 this ordinance.
01:50:08 Now we need to go to the findings and intent.
01:50:12 And this is really a summary, and very quickly, it is
01:50:15 simply the nature of the threat in public safety.
01:50:19 The vulnerable status of children.
01:50:22 The higher rate of recidivism or reoffense that is
01:50:27 asserted by various studies to occur among sexual
01:50:31 offenders, causing the need for measures such as this

01:50:35 to promote the public health, safety and welfare.
01:50:37 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Are you reading from the ordinance
01:50:39 itself where the whereases are?
01:50:41 >>DAVID SMITH: I'm summarizing at this juncture.
01:50:44 I will take you through specific provisions.
01:50:47 That's what I was just about to do.
01:50:49 If you turn to section 14-285, this is where the
01:50:53 substance of the ordinance starts.
01:50:56 It is page 13 in my draft.
01:50:59 I assume it shows up the same in yours.
01:51:02 If you look at 14-285, first of all, this speaks to
01:51:07 sexual predators.
01:51:08 Now, remember, we have sexual predators and sexual
01:51:11 offenders.
01:51:12 Sexual predators are those that have a little more
01:51:16 involvement in this process.
01:51:17 They usually have a second offense or more egregious
01:51:20 offense and have been found to be uniquely dangerous
01:51:24 by a judicial process.
01:51:25 You may or may not want to make this sexual predators
01:51:29 and sexual offenders.
01:51:30 Right now we drafted as sexual predators.

01:51:32 I believe that was your direction, but it wasn't a
01:51:34 definitive direction.
01:51:36 It was to move us along in this process.
01:51:38 It talks about a thousand-feet prohibition.
01:51:40 You remember we had the maps last week.
01:51:42 A thousand feet is consistent with current state law
01:51:45 in the areas from which sexual predators are precluded
01:51:49 to live, and this is the residency limitation,
01:51:54 schools, day care centers, parks, or playgrounds.
01:51:59 So this, again, is the residency restriction, sexual
01:52:02 predators only, those types of locations.
01:52:05 Now, there are exceptions, and these are important.
01:52:07 If you look at subpart C, it says a sexual predator
01:52:11 does not commit a violation if he or she is engaged in
01:52:16 any of the following.
01:52:17 First of all, the residence was established before
01:52:21 this goes into effect.
01:52:22 We're not dispossessing anyone from their home.
01:52:24 Second, the individual was a minor when they committed
01:52:27 the crime.
01:52:28 Third, the individual is a minor today.
01:52:33 Four, the facility was opened after the sexual

01:52:39 predator established his permanent residence.
01:52:42 That's just a variant of we're not dispossessing
01:52:46 people from their home.
01:52:47 So if a park or school moves to their neighborhood and
01:52:49 they already established the residency, we will not
01:52:52 evict them from their home.
01:52:53 Those are the exceptions that are contained in the
01:52:56 ordinance as drafted today.
01:52:58 It does indicate, if you look at subpart D, not
01:53:02 entirely sure how this plays out.
01:53:04 May have to have Julie explain this.
01:53:06 The chapter does not apply to restrict a sexual
01:53:10 predator's place of residence when regulated by state
01:53:13 law.
01:53:14 Now, I assume -- well, she's gone.
01:53:16 We'll talk about that -- we'll be walking through the
01:53:19 ordinance and you'll get some of the details.
01:53:21 14-286 is what we would call generically child safety
01:53:25 zones.
01:53:26 And this is what you see embodied in the county
01:53:28 commission ordinance approach.
01:53:30 And these are areas where you cannot be if you are a

01:53:33 sexual predator.
01:53:35 We're limited to sexual predators.
01:53:37 You may or may not want to extend that to sexual
01:53:40 offenders.
01:53:40 You'll have some testimony today that may suggest
01:53:43 there are reasons to extend it to offenders.
01:53:45 I think that testimony may be coupled with some
01:53:47 suggestions you narrow it down elsewhere, but you'll
01:53:51 have that information.
01:53:51 Now, if you look at the exclusionaries, they are
01:53:54 different than the residential areas.
01:53:56 And we used the term loiter or prowl.
01:53:58 Now, again, we use that term because that gives a
01:54:01 police officer probable cause to intervene in the
01:54:04 process.
01:54:04 And under the statute, if you happen to look back at
01:54:07 it, it also requires that the officer seek to have
01:54:10 these people identify themselves and explain their
01:54:13 behavior.
01:54:13 So we don't have a problem where the whole process is
01:54:17 thrown out because it appears arbitrary and
01:54:20 capricious.

01:54:21 The officer will approach the person, seek
01:54:23 identification, explanation.
01:54:24 If he doesn't get an adequate one, he or she can
01:54:28 remove that person from the vicinity.
01:54:30 Yes, ma'am.
01:54:32 >>MARY ALVAREZ: If a sexual predator comes out of
01:54:35 prison and he goes back to the residence where he's
01:54:38 had a permanent address, does he have a monitoring
01:54:44 system on him?
01:54:45 Or how does a person know that if you're in a crowd,
01:54:52 say where you are with all the playgrounds and so on
01:54:55 like that, how do you know this guy that's there is
01:54:59 not there for, you know, he's there just to look
01:55:01 around.
01:55:03 Does he have an electronic bracelet or something on?
01:55:07 >>DAVID SMITH: It varies.
01:55:10 The truth of the matter is -- it's kind of like how
01:55:12 much is a brown suit?
01:55:12 It depends on what, in this case, the sexual predator
01:55:15 did.
01:55:15 Sometimes, terms of release include a monitoring
01:55:18 device that he or she must wear, which has global

01:55:22 positioning associated with it, so we literally know
01:55:24 where that person is at all times.
01:55:25 And if they take their bracelet off, it sends a
01:55:29 static -- sends either an emergency or a static
01:55:32 location which lets you know you have a problem and
01:55:35 that person, they'll seek them out.
01:55:37 But not everybody has that.
01:55:39 There are different terms for different release.
01:55:42 You have an enforcement issue here.
01:55:43 No matter what you do, enforcement is difficult.
01:55:45 Because you don't -- we don't have Scarlet letters or
01:55:49 anything of that nature.
01:55:50 Nobody is recommending that.
01:55:52 But what we're trying to do is provide more tools to
01:55:54 provide more protection so that less of this happens.
01:55:58 Nothing is foolproof.
01:56:00 But let me walk you through what the difference are in
01:56:03 terms of the exclusion zones.
01:56:05 It includes schools, day care centers, parks and
01:56:09 playgrounds.
01:56:09 That's similar to what you had before for residency.
01:56:13 Added to this are school bus stops or libraries within

01:56:17 the jurisdictional limits of the City of Tampa.
01:56:19 So these are areas where you cannot be, you cannot
01:56:23 loiter or prowl, excuse me, if you are under current
01:56:27 draft of sexual predator.
01:56:29 Final draft may include sexual offenders.
01:56:31 Now, let me also explain, there are some exceptions.
01:56:34 If you turn to page 14.
01:56:36 Again, these are critical and they point to the
01:56:38 difficulties of enforcement.
01:56:40 Subpart C indicates it's not a violation if this
01:56:44 person is dropping their own child off at school or
01:56:49 attending an activity at the school.
01:56:52 Now, there are other issues that we overlay on top of
01:56:55 that, and that is an obligation to report to the
01:56:58 school to get permission.
01:57:00 So the school knows you're in this category of people,
01:57:04 and that you're on the premises.
01:57:06 But it's not a violation of your ordinance for them to
01:57:09 be there as long as they are there related to their
01:57:11 own children's activity at school.
01:57:13 Yes, ma'am.
01:57:14 >>MARY ALVAREZ: The sexual predator, can he have

01:57:19 contact with his own children?
01:57:20 >>DAVID SMITH: Yes.
01:57:23 Well, there are instances in which the answer is no.
01:57:25 And that would be, for example, if the predator was
01:57:28 involved in some kind of activity with his or her own
01:57:32 children, obviously, they'll be off limits.
01:57:35 So in some cases, that determination is made pursuant
01:57:38 to a judicial process.
01:57:40 Without unique circumstances, ordinarily a sexual
01:57:43 predator is not barred from seeing their own children,
01:57:46 but there are certainly cases in which that's true.
01:57:50 And some of the people who work in this area -- I
01:57:53 don't -- but some may be able to elaborate on that.
01:57:56 So obviously we have the activity of his or her own
01:57:59 children, including activities at the facilities or
01:58:02 locations.
01:58:03 In subpart D, we do not restrict access to a public
01:58:08 part for the purpose of exercising your constitutional
01:58:10 rights.
01:58:10 Now, clearly, if somebody is down there marching with
01:58:13 a band or it says whatever they are protesting about,
01:58:16 it will be difficult, we cannot dispossess them from

01:58:20 the park for exercising the first amendment rights.
01:58:23 That's why we used the prowling and loitering.
01:58:25 We make it clear on the face that our statute is not a
01:58:29 violation of the first amendment.
01:58:30 That's why you have many of these things in here.
01:58:32 If you look at subpart E, again, this talks about
01:58:36 access to schools or child care and development
01:58:41 facilities related to the education and care of a
01:58:43 child with regard to his or her responsibilities as a
01:58:47 parent or guardian.
01:58:48 It's a little more of an elaboration on the same point
01:58:50 I mentioned.
01:58:51 Subpart F, nonetheless, they cannot remain or loiter
01:58:58 any longer than necessary for the purpose.
01:59:00 If they are going to a parent-teacher conference.
01:59:02 It's at 8:00 at night, they have their conference,
01:59:04 they need to depart the premises with reasonable
01:59:07 dispatch.
01:59:11 Subpart G, again, extends similar protections with
01:59:14 regard to activities in libraries and day-care
01:59:16 facilities, et cetera, and it deals with the
01:59:19 permission requirement.

01:59:20 They must notify and have permission from, say, the
01:59:22 principal of the school or the librarian who is in
01:59:26 residence, et cetera.
01:59:29 Again, the point is to monitor.
01:59:30 The primary theme I found throughout the literature
01:59:33 I've read is if people are monitored, people who are
01:59:37 previous sex offenders are monitored, they know they
01:59:39 are being watched, the likelihood of reoffending is
01:59:43 less.
01:59:43 So the point is to really try to keep track of people
01:59:45 and let them know that they are being watched and
01:59:48 presumably the opportunity or temptation would be far
01:59:51 less.
01:59:54 It does indicate in here that they will remain under
01:59:56 the direct supervision of a school official.
01:59:59 That does put responsibilities on these institutions.
02:00:02 You need to understand that, but unfortunately, that's
02:00:04 going to be one of the costs we'll have to pay to make
02:00:10 these protections effective.
02:00:11 There are provisions in here that we encourage the
02:00:13 other workers in these facilities to cooperate in this
02:00:15 effort.

02:00:15 And there's an obligation for a sex offender or sex
02:00:19 predator, depending on your scope of persons, to
02:00:22 acknowledge the requirements that apply to that
02:00:30 person.
02:00:30 There's also under 14-288, which is on page 15, a
02:00:32 prohibition on renting to a sex offender in violation
02:00:39 of this code.
02:00:40 So the landlord of a premise will also be responsible
02:00:43 if they violate the provisions.
02:00:46 Subpart 14-289 is the acknowledgment I was talking
02:00:50 about.
02:00:50 And 14-290 has a proviso that this is not intended to
02:00:59 violate existing contract rights or to impair people's
02:01:02 constitutional rights.
02:01:03 And then, of course, we have the severability clause
02:01:05 that is teamed or paired with that in order to avoid
02:01:10 the claim of violating someone's constitutional
02:01:14 rights.
02:01:14 Any unconstitutional provision severed, not of any
02:01:18 force and effect, and the remainder remains -- what I
02:01:24 would like to do one other thing I should mention,
02:01:26 there is the person from the department of corrections

02:01:28 is here.
02:01:29 Her name is Gail Reddick.
02:01:31 If you have any questions of Gail.
02:01:33 I didn't see captain Sherry Atkins here, but I think
02:01:39 Kirby is certainly here.
02:01:40 And Kirby will as a rep of the Tampa Police Department
02:01:43 provide you that information.
02:01:45 I don't know that we need additional elaboration at
02:01:47 this time between the city and county.
02:01:49 We'll come back to that issue as necessary.
02:01:52 And we'll also put the pending Florida legislation
02:01:56 behind the comments from law enforcement.
02:01:57 And we have one other person here, Judy Cornett, who
02:02:02 is the executive director of the safety zone advocacy
02:02:04 group, and she would like to be heard as well as
02:02:06 Dr. Carter.
02:02:07 So let's go ahead and have the representative from the
02:02:09 Tampa Police Department provide you their information,
02:02:12 and then we'll provide you a summary of the pending
02:02:15 legislation.
02:02:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Harrison has a question.
02:02:19 >>SHAWN HARRISON: David, the issue on public as well

02:02:23 as private parks is addressed in here.
02:02:25 >>DAVID SMITH: Yes, it is.
02:02:26 I should mention that.
02:02:27 It's in the definition of parks.
02:02:30 And what we're going to recommend is that we also list
02:02:32 them just so we don't have a notice problem.
02:02:37 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Thank you.
02:02:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: David, on page 13, section 14-285
02:02:42 (D), chapter does not apply to restrict the sex
02:02:46 predator place of residence when regulated by state
02:02:49 law.
02:02:49 You said when Julie comes back in, she's going to
02:02:52 explain the effect of that.
02:02:57 >>DAVID SMITH: Let me give her a chance to gather her
02:02:59 thoughts as she's coming up here.
02:03:01 The issue is the import of subpart D that says this
02:03:04 chapter does not apply to restrict a sex predator's
02:03:07 place of residence when regulated by state law.
02:03:11 I can probably give you a little bit of an explanation
02:03:15 on that.
02:03:16 One of the things is state law has more power than we
02:03:18 have.

02:03:18 Literally, everything they do in this nature is a
02:03:21 criminal violation.
02:03:22 They have the authority to prosecute people.
02:03:25 They are not limited.
02:03:26 We as a municipality are limited under chapter 166.
02:03:30 Our criminal sanction I think is a $500 fine and
02:03:33 potentially 30 days.
02:03:34 The state has much stronger enforcement.
02:03:36 All things being equally and I'm probably stealing
02:03:40 some of Kirby's thunder, all things being equal, we
02:03:43 would rather have TPD enforce a violation of state law
02:03:48 if there's a violation of both because there's much
02:03:50 more force behind it.
02:03:51 So that may be in part to identify that issue as it is
02:03:54 anything else.
02:03:54 But also, the second issue why that might be relevant,
02:03:58 if something happens with state law, it's either
02:04:00 repealed, challenged, et cetera, our ordinance may
02:04:04 nonetheless be constitutional and enforceable if the
02:04:07 state law disappears, even though it attempts to speak
02:04:10 to the issue.
02:04:11 Those are two reasons why we may have an ordinance

02:04:14 even though state law would appear to govern it.
02:04:21 I think that's part of the question, if I understand
02:04:21 your question, Mr. Dingfelder.
02:04:22 Why do we even have this if we have state law?
02:04:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I always assumed state law is
02:04:28 paramount when you have any kind of potential
02:04:30 conflict, state law rules.
02:04:32 >>DAVID SMITH: That is true.
02:04:34 I think this is maybe simply an acknowledgment of
02:04:36 that.
02:04:36 I'll ask Julie if she has any additional points
02:04:40 besides those I've just expressed.
02:04:43 >> Julie, Legal Department.
02:04:47 I believe that preemption is the issue with whether
02:04:52 state law preempts any local laws.
02:04:56 Preemption can be implied or expressed.
02:05:00 And currently, it's not clear whether the state laws
02:05:04 preempt what we're attempting to place in our
02:05:09 ordinance.
02:05:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So the intent of drafting this one
02:05:13 section 14-285 is to make it clear that we want state
02:05:18 law to be paramount where it does apply?

02:05:25 >> Yes, that's correct.
02:05:26 And also, there's a bill in the legislature, there's a
02:05:30 current bill that has been filed in the session where
02:05:38 the legislature may expressly preempt residency
02:05:41 restrictions and loitering restrictions, any
02:05:46 restrictions as far as residency or loitering.
02:05:49 That hasn't happened yet, but it may.
02:05:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So that could have the effect of
02:05:53 preempting everything that we're proposing to do right
02:05:56 now?
02:05:56 >> It would -- the way I read the legislative bill, it
02:06:01 would preempt residency restrictions, but not
02:06:05 necessarily and not yet.
02:06:07 There's no bill that preempts no loitering.
02:06:12 You may be able to put -- enact a no loitering
02:06:17 ordinance.
02:06:18 But any residency restrictions may be preempted.
02:06:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer Kirby.
02:06:33 >> While they are doing that, it's also partly
02:06:35 therefore an adjunct to the severability issue.
02:06:38 There's so much going on right now both at the state,
02:06:41 local, county, everybody is looking at this issue.

02:06:45 You can't help look at the newspaper and see the cases
02:06:48 going on.
02:06:48 It's kind of difficult in an environment where there's
02:06:50 so much flux.
02:06:53 >> Good afternoon.
02:06:54 I'm Kirby Rainsberger with the Legal Department.
02:06:57 And I think rather than guess at what issues might be
02:07:00 concerning you with respect to enforcement, I would
02:07:03 like to hear what those issues are, what questions you
02:07:10 might have.
02:07:11 I'm not hearing any.
02:07:12 >>SHAWN HARRISON: We originally thought there would be
02:07:16 enforcement issues with the 2500 feet and tracking
02:07:18 issues, but now since we've gone more to the child
02:07:20 protection zones, does TPD have any concerns left
02:07:25 about it?
02:07:28 >> Well there are issues connected with that in terms
02:07:30 of enforcement.
02:07:30 And one of the primary ones that jumps out at me is
02:07:36 identifying specifically where those zones stop and
02:07:39 start.
02:07:40 You're talking about school bus stops that aren't

02:07:43 typically marked in any way whatsoever.
02:07:46 We're going to have to give potential violators notice
02:07:52 that they are in violation, give them fair warning
02:07:56 that they are in violation.
02:07:59 That may mean putting up signs at every school bus
02:08:03 stop in the city.
02:08:05 But that won't establish a definite 300-foot margin.
02:08:11 Now, how you're going to identify that margin to
02:08:14 people who are walking down the street, walking down
02:08:18 the sidewalk, to me, that's a very substantial and
02:08:22 significant issue and may require a fairly large
02:08:27 expenditure on the part of the city to establish
02:08:29 precisely where those zones start and stop.
02:08:34 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Just to follow up on that to make
02:08:37 sure I understand the issue.
02:08:41 For, for instance, the school bus stop, if someone is
02:08:45 walking by doing their regular business that's not
02:08:48 implicated by this ordinance.
02:08:49 But if somebody is hanging out or loitering or
02:08:52 prowling as we've been discussing, then that
02:08:57 individual's behavior would be implicated.
02:09:00 In that situation, is the notice that we're talking

02:09:03 about -- and I don't know if this is appropriate for
02:09:06 you or for Mr. Smith, is simply a verbal warning from
02:09:10 an officer or another individual authority sufficient
02:09:14 notice or at that point, if the behavior continues or
02:09:20 occurs again with the same individual in another
02:09:25 instance, then do you have the opportunity for
02:09:29 enforcement?
02:09:30 >> If the same behavior occurs with the same
02:09:34 individual at the same location and you can document
02:09:38 the previous warning, you may have satisfied the
02:09:42 notice requirement.
02:09:45 But understand that throughout the city, there will be
02:09:50 literally thousands, and I don't think that's an
02:09:54 exaggeration, of places where they would be in
02:09:57 violation of this ordinance, at least hundreds, where
02:10:03 if we're going to require or rely upon
02:10:06 person-to-person notice not only -- I think you can
02:10:13 see the breadth of that task and the record keeping
02:10:17 involved in that task.
02:10:21 And if we're going to say that the location is not the
02:10:28 critical issue here, it's the loitering and prowling
02:10:31 that is the issue here, then the state statute covers

02:10:36 that, frankly.
02:10:40 So the locations in terms of the ordinance becomes
02:10:42 critical.
02:10:43 It is the thing that changes that differentiates the
02:10:46 ordinance from the statute is the location.
02:10:51 So identifying that location and communicating to a
02:10:55 potential violator to a citizen where exactly that
02:10:59 location is, that's going to be the challenge of that
02:11:03 particular portion.
02:11:08 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Mr. Rainsberger, who is in charge of
02:11:10 the school bus stops?
02:11:13 >> The School Board is.
02:11:16 They not only place them, but they move them.
02:11:20 And they don't necessarily -- in fact, I'm sure they
02:11:23 don't.
02:11:24 They don't communicate that to the police department
02:11:28 as the system exists right now, I'm sure they could.
02:11:31 But those are movable certainly.
02:11:37 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Okay.
02:11:38 So what I'm thinking is that since the School Board is
02:11:44 in charge of placing the school bus stops where they
02:11:48 are, then it would be their responsibility to put a

02:11:52 sign there just like the Hartline does.
02:11:54 How -- you got to know where Hartline bus stop is
02:11:58 going to be, Hartline puts up the signs, school bus
02:12:04 stops here.
02:12:05 If it needs to be moved.
02:12:06 If they need to move the bus stop, they move the sign.
02:12:10 >> I like that idea, personally, if you can sell it to
02:12:14 the School Board.
02:12:14 The other issue then is the 300-foot line.
02:12:19 Not only are you going to put up a sign precisely
02:12:21 where that bus stop is, but now I need to know where
02:12:25 the 300-foot line is, not only for the citizen, but
02:12:27 for the police officer.
02:12:30 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Is it a circumference?
02:12:32 >> Yes, ma'am, I believe it is.
02:12:33 Are we going to leave it to each individual
02:12:37 calculation, to their estimation.
02:12:44 >>MARY ALVAREZ: All that I think we need to do, if
02:12:46 we're going to protect these children, we got to
02:12:49 protect them at the school bus stops, too.
02:12:51 Because a lot of stuff is happening at school bus
02:12:54 stops.

02:12:55 We just had an incident this early part of the week.
02:13:00 >> I don't at all disagree with your goal.
02:13:02 I hope I'm not giving you that impression.
02:13:04 I'm merely trying to point out some possible problems
02:13:07 that we will encounter in court when we try to enforce
02:13:12 this.
02:13:14 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, we'll deal with that.
02:13:18 I'm just not quite following your logic, Kirby.
02:13:21 If we limit this to predators, you're talking about
02:13:24 something like 50 in the City of Tampa.
02:13:28 >> At the moment.
02:13:30 >>SHAWN HARRISON: You say we can't enforce this unless
02:13:32 we go out and we draw a 300-foot circle around every
02:13:37 school bus stop and we monitor that.
02:13:39 It seems like there's some element of common sense
02:13:42 involved that if one of these people that are being
02:13:45 watched and TPD has told us they would prefer to see
02:13:49 it limited to predators as opposed to offenders,
02:13:52 because they have a pretty good handle on the
02:13:55 predators.
02:13:56 They know who they are, and we know where they can and
02:13:59 can't be.

02:14:00 So if -- I mean, yeah, if you're somewhere between say
02:14:05 275 and 325 feet, maybe it becomes a close call and in
02:14:09 those cases we don't violate them.
02:14:11 But if you are up hanging around a school bus stop and
02:14:16 it's patently obvious that you are within 300 feet of
02:14:20 that and that should be fairly easy to judge, they can
02:14:23 get them on a violation.
02:14:25 They measure it at that point.
02:14:27 I don't think we have to go out and post signs
02:14:29 everywhere and then draw big circles and say you can't
02:14:32 go within that.
02:14:32 We're not saying you have to do that at parks.
02:14:34 How are we going to judge a hundred feet from parks,
02:14:38 too?
02:14:39 >> Exactly the same issue.
02:14:40 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, you know what, the county
02:14:42 apparently hasn't determined that that's an issue.
02:14:47 >> I guarantee you, they will encounter it in court.
02:14:50 >>SHAWN HARRISON: What should we do?
02:14:52 Not do anything?
02:14:53 I mean, it's our jobs to pass ordinances that we think
02:14:57 are appropriate, and it's the job of the legal staff

02:15:01 to defend those ordinances.
02:15:04 >> It is also the legal staff's job to advise you when
02:15:07 there are likely legal consequences of whatever you
02:15:11 may wish to do.
02:15:14 And that's all --
02:15:17 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Kirby, if you have a sexual predator
02:15:26 that's convicted and he's probably on probation for at
02:15:28 least 25 years, whatever.
02:15:30 He's going to have a bracelet on, and he's going to be
02:15:33 monitored.
02:15:34 I would think -- you mentioned something about a
02:15:38 global positioning system here, when we know that that
02:15:40 guy is near a bus stop or in a day care center or a
02:15:45 park or something.
02:15:49 >> Part of what a court is going to require us to
02:15:51 prove is that the individual that we arrest for this
02:15:57 violation had fair notice that his activity was
02:16:01 against the law.
02:16:04 >>MARY ALVAREZ: So he has the rights and the victim
02:16:07 doesn't.
02:16:07 >> The victim has all kinds of rights.
02:16:11 I'm just the messenger, frankly.

02:16:13 We encountered this problem with the six-foot rule and
02:16:21 you know it.
02:16:22 And we were in court I can't tell you how many times
02:16:25 trying to explain to a judge how we determined that
02:16:29 the patron and the dancer were closer together than
02:16:33 six feet.
02:16:35 How are we going to do 300 feet?
02:16:37 >>SHAWN HARRISON: That's been upheld several times on
02:16:39 appeal as well.
02:16:40 So the Legal Department has done their job very well
02:16:42 in defending that ordinance.
02:16:43 >> The restriction has been upheld.
02:16:45 The proof, the factual issue gives us trouble
02:16:51 frequently.
02:16:52 And what you said is exactly right.
02:16:54 When they are so far within that boundary that there's
02:16:56 no room for discussion, yes, we win those.
02:16:59 When there's an issue, when a judge may think he may
02:17:07 have not thought that was 300 feet or in the six-foot
02:17:11 cases, might have not thought that was six feet,
02:17:14 frankly, routinely we lose those cases.
02:17:17 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Aren't we keeping our people safer

02:17:20 by having that in place and violating those people and
02:17:23 getting them out of places where they shouldn't be, if
02:17:28 only for just a few minutes.
02:17:30 And then it's up to you all to make those cases in
02:17:34 court.
02:17:34 Isn't that what everybody's jobs are supposed to be?
02:17:36 And this notice issue also bothers me, because if we
02:17:40 pass an ordinance in the City of Tampa, every person
02:17:43 is held to know what the ordinances of the City of
02:17:46 Tampa are.
02:17:47 I can't drive my car 60 miles an hour through a
02:17:50 residential neighborhood and claim that I didn't know
02:17:53 the speed limit was 25 miles per hour.
02:17:57 I didn't get direct notice of that.
02:18:00 I'm on notice because it's a statute.
02:18:03 >> I'm not talking about notice of the existence of
02:18:06 the statute.
02:18:07 I'm talking about notice of the location of the
02:18:10 prohibited zone.
02:18:13 A school bus stop is not marked in any way.
02:18:17 The vast majority of the time.
02:18:20 I couldn't tell you where the school bus stops are

02:18:23 within a thousand feet of my residence much less
02:18:27 throughout the city.
02:18:32 Now, a court is going to ask -- I'm not saying this is
02:18:34 my opinion -- I'm saying a court is going to ask how
02:18:37 this arrested person should have known that a bus stop
02:18:42 was at a particular corner.
02:18:44 How is he supposed to know that?
02:18:46 How is that person supposed to be able to conform to
02:18:49 that ordinance, even if he knows of the ordinance, if
02:18:52 he doesn't know where the bus stop is, if that
02:18:55 300-foot line is not somehow marked, somehow
02:19:01 estimatable by that person, you haven't given that
02:19:05 person proper notice.
02:19:06 All I'm saying is, there's a legal issue here that may
02:19:10 prevent enforcement or may land the city in court as a
02:19:16 defendant in a false arrest case.
02:19:23 >> David Smith, City Attorney.
02:19:24 Let me add a few points if I can.
02:19:26 I think Kirby indicated he's not trying to say that we
02:19:29 shouldn't do anything.
02:19:30 Obviously, we should.
02:19:30 Ultimately, that will be the decision of this Council.

02:19:33 What he's indicating is it's incumbent on us as your
02:19:36 counsel to make sure you are aware of the risks
02:19:41 associated with the actions you are taking.
02:19:43 If we have an indefinite area such as where is the
02:19:46 300-foot line, it can be challenged one of two bases.
02:19:50 Either challenged as unconstitutional on its face,
02:19:53 that it is too -- for somebody to conform their
02:19:53 behavior to the requirements, then the whole thing
02:19:54 gets thrown out or it gets challenged as
02:19:57 unconstitutional as applied.
02:19:58 Meaning the officers are getting aggressive.
02:20:02 You were 310, you were 320, you were 340, we don't
02:20:06 like you, we're still kicking you out of here.
02:20:08 The problem is really the first one in this instance.
02:20:11 One of the ways we may be able to address that issue
02:20:13 is indicate that we limit the time period.
02:20:16 And that is, you cannot loiter or prowl at a school
02:20:19 bus stop when children are there or something of that
02:20:22 nature, which also provides some indication that it's
02:20:27 a school bus stop.
02:20:28 I think Kirby is trying to make the point and very
02:20:30 well, it gets problematic when we get more aggressive.

02:20:33 We all understand why we're being aggressive.
02:20:36 These are my children.
02:20:37 They are your children.
02:20:39 My grandchildren.
02:20:40 And we do want to try to be as protective as we can,
02:20:42 but we don't want to lose the ordinance in the
02:20:44 process.
02:20:45 So ultimately, it is going to be your call.
02:20:50 And as with the six-foot rule, it may not have been
02:20:52 what we would have addressed or adopted.
02:20:54 You did adopt it.
02:20:56 We did get it enforced.
02:20:57 It has been upheld.
02:20:59 You're correct.
02:21:00 And anything that comes out of this process, we'll try
02:21:02 to tailor it in a manner that keeps it as enforceable
02:21:06 as possible and makes it practical for the police
02:21:08 department to apply it.
02:21:09 I just wanted to provide that context.
02:21:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
02:21:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
02:21:14 A couple of things, Kirby.

02:21:17 For one thing, to get back to Mary's point, I don't
02:21:21 think -- my recollection is all sexual predators do
02:21:24 not have ankle bracelets and that sort of thing when
02:21:27 they are out on probation.
02:21:29 Is that true or false?
02:21:30 >> That's my understanding also that they do not.
02:21:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Some do; some don't.
02:21:36 Depends on the judge and sentence and probation and
02:21:38 everything else.
02:21:39 I don't know that we can strictly rely on that either
02:21:41 way, number one.
02:21:42 Number two, I recall and this hasn't been as big a
02:21:48 issue in recent years, but I recall those signs saying
02:21:51 entering drug-free school zones.
02:21:55 Remember those?
02:21:55 That must have been a similar kind of issue.
02:21:57 And you probably were involved in it.
02:22:00 >> I was.
02:22:00 And we fought this exact same battle.
02:22:03 And as you recall, we got into a situation where the
02:22:09 neighborhoods didn't want big signs that announced
02:22:15 that this was a drug-free zone.

02:22:17 But we encountered precisely that same issue, which
02:22:22 was noticed to persons who were excluded from that
02:22:26 zone.
02:22:27 And the lack of our ability to enforce the ordinance
02:22:30 against people who didn't have that kind of notice and
02:22:33 we went through and let me say that was far less
02:22:41 encompassing than the ordinance that's on the table
02:22:44 here, because it was relatively finite zones and there
02:22:48 were very few of them.
02:22:51 And so marking them was relatively simple and easy and
02:22:55 inexpensive process.
02:23:03 As opposed to the issue we may well have here.
02:23:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here is another example and I
02:23:08 thought of this a few weeks ago when we were first
02:23:10 talking about this.
02:23:11 Just from a practical perspective, what if -- what if
02:23:18 you're Joe Q. citizen or Joe Q. sex predator walking
02:23:22 down Kennedy Boulevard and you sit down and you're
02:23:25 loitering, per se, but he looks around and says, well,
02:23:28 I don't see anything nearby.
02:23:30 But one block behind that person on the parallel
02:23:35 street is a day care center that's not within eye

02:23:38 shot, but it sure as heck might be within the 300-foot
02:23:41 straight line that we talked about, what do we do
02:23:45 about those kind of circles?
02:23:47 How -- do we mark those circles?
02:23:54 I think the intent of this is very noble.
02:23:56 I think it's a good intent.
02:23:58 I think the practical side of it is very difficult.
02:24:00 It's not just about notice, but notice equals due
02:24:02 process.
02:24:03 And that's where the courts have big problems with.
02:24:07 >> And that's exactly correct, precisely where these
02:24:11 zones are.
02:24:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I mean, I think that we have to
02:24:16 know a lot more about the facts of these.
02:24:19 How many school bus stops are there?
02:24:21 Can anybody in this room tell us today how many school
02:24:25 bus stops there are in the City of Tampa?
02:24:27 And what kind of costs are involved when we do start
02:24:30 putting up these signs and then what are all the other
02:24:35 ramifications?
02:24:37 >>MARY ALVAREZ: It wouldn't be the City of Tampa of
02:24:39 putting them up.

02:24:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We don't have jurisdiction over the
02:24:41 School Board to tell them what to do.
02:24:43 >>MARY ALVAREZ: We request everybody else to do
02:24:45 something.
02:24:48 Why not request that?
02:24:50 We're talking about the safety and welfare of our
02:24:53 children.
02:24:55 Also here, where you have -- where it says the
02:24:59 July 25th, 2006, the government passed --
02:25:05 [INAUDIBLE] -- what does it mean when it says tracking
02:25:10 of convicted sex offenders with a GPS technology?
02:25:14 What does that mean?
02:25:15 Does that mean anything?
02:25:18 Or just words?
02:25:23 >> It allows, as I understand it, a court to impose
02:25:27 GPS tracking typically as a condition of patrol.
02:25:32 And that already occurs.
02:25:35 My understanding is that it does not necessarily occur
02:25:41 uniformly and universally or forever.
02:25:46 Obviously, there's a cost attached to that kind of
02:25:50 situation also, and my understanding is that the
02:25:52 courts are not universally and uniformly imposing GPS

02:25:59 tracking as a condition of parole across the board on
02:26:02 predators.
02:26:03 I could be wrong about that, but that's my
02:26:05 understanding.
02:26:08 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Well, I think that commissioner or
02:26:11 councilman Dingfelder's hypothesis, that question that
02:26:16 he came up with, if somebody is walking down the
02:26:19 street, John Q. predator, as you say, he sits down at
02:26:25 a bench.
02:26:26 He's not doing anything wrong.
02:26:28 He's resting.
02:26:29 He's not prowling.
02:26:31 He's not loitering.
02:26:32 And there happens to be within 300 feet.
02:26:35 I don't think that's a situation where a TPD officer
02:26:40 would ever arrest him.
02:26:42 It does become a judgment call on the part of TPD like
02:26:45 every single arrest is a judgment call in some cases
02:26:48 on the part of TPD.
02:26:50 We trust them to do their jobs.
02:26:52 I think if we're going to err on anyone's side, it
02:26:55 should be erring on the side of the innocent victims

02:27:00 and not worrying about, you know, do we have this
02:27:04 properly marked.
02:27:04 Do we have some sort of notification issue.
02:27:09 I find it preposterous that we would have the
02:27:12 obligation to go out and post signs and draw lines.
02:27:16 I just can't accept that as a premise.
02:27:19 I think if we're going to err on one side, we ought to
02:27:23 err on the side of our innocent citizens as opposed to
02:27:27 those 50 people in this community that we're trying to
02:27:30 keep track of.
02:27:35 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Kirby, thank you for coming down
02:27:37 here today and giving us what I think is your honest
02:27:40 assessment of how you'll make this work if this goes
02:27:43 forward.
02:27:44 And the pitfalls and obstacles that we're likely to
02:27:47 see in trying to enforce the proposal.
02:27:51 I think it's been very helpful.
02:27:54 I think that the sense of this Council is probably to
02:27:58 move forward with a child protection zone of some
02:28:02 sort.
02:28:04 But I think we do need to be mindful, as I said at the
02:28:07 last hearing we had on this, that we have an ordinance

02:28:09 that is as strong and as tough as possible, but that
02:28:13 has as few litigation problems as we can muster.
02:28:17 And obviously, this is an area where there are some
02:28:21 gray areas.
02:28:22 Mr. Smith's suggestion of having them apply when there
02:28:28 are children present, I think that adds an element to
02:28:32 addressing this issue.
02:28:35 And I think that the notice issue that you've
02:28:37 identified constitutionally is important if we're
02:28:40 going to get convictions under this.
02:28:43 And I'm glad you've raised it.
02:28:45 I tend to disagree with Mr. Harrison in terms of his
02:28:49 legal statement, but I agree with his sentiment that
02:28:52 we need to be as aggressive as we can be.
02:28:54 So I just wanted to thank you for coming down here,
02:28:57 giving us your professional advice, and I think that
02:29:00 that's added a lot to this debate.
02:29:02 And I hope that as the staff moves forward in drafting
02:29:07 the final version of this that we do our level best to
02:29:11 address the issues that you've raised.
02:29:14 And I hope you'll be part of that process as we try to
02:29:17 grapple with those issues.

02:29:28 >> David Smith, City Attorney.
02:29:29 In an effort to move this along to get additional
02:29:31 information, I realize the more information you get
02:29:33 the more complicated it seems to be.
02:29:34 That's what I've been experiencing as I look through
02:29:34 the case law.
02:29:35 Be that as it may, we need to give you that
02:29:37 information so you can make as informed a decision as
02:29:40 possible.
02:29:41 What I recommend we do is that we proceed to hear from
02:29:44 Dr. Leo Carter.
02:29:49 Provide you information about the dynamic of the
02:29:51 offender and then Judy Cornett, safety zone advocacy
02:29:56 person and then we'll wrap it up by coming back and
02:29:58 talking about the pending Florida legislative issues.
02:30:00 So Dr. Carter, if you're here.
02:30:03 I believe he has a Powerpoint presentation.
02:30:10 >> Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you today
02:30:12 about such an important issue in our community.
02:30:18 Hopefully you've been given a copy of my Powerpoint
02:30:23 presentation and also a handout on the numbers for
02:30:29 sexual offenders and sexual predators in the

02:30:35 community.
02:30:42 I believe you've also been give an copy of my
02:30:45 background.
02:30:46 I've been working in the area of sexual abuse now for
02:30:49 over 30 years.
02:30:53 I've worked at three different prisons in Florida.
02:30:56 I currently have a sex offender treatment program
02:30:59 where I spend most of my waking hours working with men
02:31:04 and women who have sexually abused someone.
02:31:08 I've been an assistant professor at USF.
02:31:10 I've done a lot of training locally and nationally.
02:31:15 And today what I hope to bring to you is a focus
02:31:18 towards effective sex offender management.
02:31:25 What we have evolved in our country a lot are social
02:31:31 policies developed by single cases where we've been
02:31:34 caught up into the emotional reaction to young
02:31:38 children being abducted and killed.
02:31:42 And some of the social policies developed really
02:31:45 haven't been that effective.
02:31:46 So if we look at management as the focus with the goal
02:31:52 to be community safety, that's really what the ideas
02:31:56 that I'm here to present to you today.

02:31:58 Now, if you look at the numbers that I have here, I
02:32:01 took this off the FDLE Web site this morning.
02:32:04 And we're really looking at four different pockets of
02:32:10 people that have been convicted of sex offenses.
02:32:13 And I started off with the idea about management being
02:32:16 that we're going to be focusing on people that have
02:32:18 been convicted of sexually abusing someone.
02:32:21 There's a strong argument that some of what we can do
02:32:24 in government is prevention for people that haven't
02:32:28 been identified as a sexual abuse yet.
02:32:31 But that's beyond what I'll talk about for today.
02:32:34 For the people that have been caught and convicted,
02:32:36 you can look at four different pockets.
02:32:38 People that have been adjudicated to sexual predator
02:32:41 and people that have been adjudicated as sex offender.
02:32:46 The difference between those people is not clear.
02:32:51 And one of the concerns with our current
02:32:57 classification is it does not clearly identify those
02:33:01 people that are more at risk.
02:33:03 It's a legal term that was developed based upon what
02:33:07 you've been convicted of.
02:33:08 But it doesn't really assess risk.

02:33:10 And there are a lot of people that have been
02:33:12 adjudicated sex offenders that could pose a very high
02:33:15 risk in the community also.
02:33:17 So this idea of only focusing on the predators not
02:33:21 dealing with the offenders, I think is going to
02:33:25 significantly limit the impact of any ordinances you
02:33:28 may pass.
02:33:29 The second cluster between these two is that some
02:33:34 people are on supervision and some aren't.
02:33:37 So you see here, I have on supervision and release.
02:33:41 People that are on supervision for sex offenses are
02:33:45 not a major concern.
02:33:47 If you look at the statutes 948.30 for standard
02:33:53 conditions for sex offender probation, they are very
02:33:57 strict.
02:33:57 And we have a representative from the department of
02:34:00 corrections today, if you have questions for her.
02:34:04 There are sex offender specialists that have specialty
02:34:08 caseloads in this area.
02:34:10 The judges impose standard ordinances of supervision
02:34:13 that include proximity, that you cannot work as a
02:34:19 volunteer or for pay in high-risk areas.

02:34:24 You can't live within a thousand feet.
02:34:27 There are polygraphs.
02:34:28 There's treatment.
02:34:29 There are specialists who go into the person's house,
02:34:32 go to their work, are informed on their daily
02:34:35 lifestyle.
02:34:36 So I don't think the big management problem is with
02:34:39 people and supervision.
02:34:40 The management problem is with people that are
02:34:42 released from supervision, and you can see from the
02:34:45 numbers, there are more people on the registry as sex
02:34:50 offenders and sexual predators that are not on
02:34:54 supervision than are.
02:34:55 You can expect these numbers to continue in that
02:34:58 direction, because people are given a sense for
02:35:01 certain time period when they get off provision, they
02:35:04 are still going to be on the registry for many more
02:35:08 years after that.
02:35:08 So this is the area that I think that we have the
02:35:10 highest risk, because a large number of those people
02:35:14 that are not on supervision have never been through
02:35:18 treatment, have never really established safe daily

02:35:22 lifestyles.
02:35:23 A lot of them come out of prison and then have been
02:35:25 put back in the community without any treatment and
02:35:27 without really dealing with their sexual problem.
02:35:31 Now, if you look at ordinances that affect people that
02:35:34 are not on community supervision, then the more
02:35:40 punitive that those restrictions are, the more risk
02:35:43 you raise that there may be court actions challenging
02:35:47 that what you're doing to people that have already
02:35:49 served their time or paid their debt to society may be
02:35:53 a problem.
02:35:53 So as I talk to you about some of these areas, my
02:35:58 focus today is going to be on the problems with the
02:36:04 assumptions that we have about sex offenders, who they
02:36:06 are and what their risk is.
02:36:08 And the problems that occur with resident
02:36:10 restrictions.
02:36:17 Do you have the Powerpoint?
02:36:26 Here are some of the premises that a lot of
02:36:30 legislation has been based on, that all offenders
02:36:32 reoffend, that all sex offenders are equally
02:36:36 dangerous, that sex offenders are more dangerous than

02:36:40 other criminals, that treatment doesn't work, and the
02:36:43 idea about stranger danger, that most of the people
02:36:48 that are abused are abused by strangers who may go to
02:36:52 a school bus stop and abduct a child or go to school
02:36:55 and do that.
02:36:59 What research has shown and a lot of the research has
02:37:02 been developed and challenged many times in courts
02:37:05 because of civil commitment where someone is going to
02:37:09 be considered a high risk to reoffend and put in a
02:37:12 treatment facility.
02:37:13 In Florida, we have civil commitment here.
02:37:16 And some of the research has come out as far as who is
02:37:19 at risk and who is not shows that it's a lot lower
02:37:23 than the general public thinks.
02:37:25 When the general public was asked, what percentage of
02:37:28 sex offenders reoffend, it's very common for people to
02:37:31 say, well, all of them or 90% or most of them.
02:37:34 The reality is that most sex offenders don't offend.
02:37:38 And one of the best studies is with Harrison Hanson
02:37:46 that followed up sex offenders over a 15-year time
02:37:49 period.
02:37:50 Because the longer you follow offenders, the more

02:37:52 people you are going to find out reoffend.
02:37:54 And what they found is that for 15 years of being
02:37:57 monitored, 24% of sex offenders in general reoffended.
02:38:02 Now, there are certain profiles that make some people
02:38:06 higher risk than others, and that's one reason why
02:38:09 rather than having a broad based, everybody is the
02:38:13 same, that some states are going to tier systems where
02:38:15 you have high, medium, low risk based upon risk
02:38:19 assessment rather than a legal definition of what
02:38:21 somebody has been convicted of.
02:38:23 >> When you're referring to sex offenders and sexual
02:38:26 predators here in this context which you're
02:38:28 discussing, are you focused on all offenders or just
02:38:32 offenders that prey on children?
02:38:34 >> Well, this particular slide here breaks it into all
02:38:39 offenders for the 24%, but then underneath it, it has
02:38:43 for incest offenders, the reoffense rate over 15 years
02:38:48 is 13%.
02:38:50 For people that sexually abuse female victims, 16%.
02:38:55 The two pockets that seem to be high risk with
02:38:58 offenders are men who sexually abuse male children
02:39:02 outside of the home setting and adult men who rape

02:39:06 adult women and also have antisocial personality
02:39:10 disorder.
02:39:12 There are clusters of people who are high risk and
02:39:14 there are many people low risk.
02:39:16 But overall, it's 24% reoffense rate over a 15-year
02:39:20 time period.
02:39:25 Sex offenders legal term as well as sexual predator.
02:39:30 It doesn't focus on the individual characteristics of
02:39:35 that person as far as assessing risk.
02:39:38 Dangerousness can go as it says here in the slide from
02:39:42 someone who is a 20-year-old having sex with a
02:39:46 15-year-old.
02:39:47 They had never been in trouble before, to more of a
02:39:49 predatory person who sexually abused a lot of children
02:39:53 over an extended time period.
02:39:57 I'd like to also inform the committee that if you only
02:40:00 focus on sexual predators, people that come from out
02:40:06 of state that are labeled sexual predators in other
02:40:09 states are not put on the FDLE register as sexual
02:40:13 predators in Florida, because sexual predator in
02:40:16 Florida is a legal term in which there has to be a
02:40:20 hearing in front of the judge and the judge in Florida

02:40:23 adjudicates them as sexual predator.
02:40:25 I mean, one of the problems that I think kind of
02:40:28 prompted all this was someone that came out of state,
02:40:31 moved in across the street from school and nobody
02:40:33 could do anything about it.
02:40:38 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Sir, how much longer do you have in
02:40:42 your presentation?
02:40:44 >> I can cut it right now.
02:40:49 There is no research to indicate that resident
02:40:51 restrictions make the community safer.
02:40:55 There's a lot of research that I have in here from
02:40:58 Colorado, from other states that have shown that
02:41:03 blanket policies restricting where sex offenders live
02:41:08 are unlikely to benefit community safety.
02:41:10 And this has been from a number of different states,
02:41:13 number of different studies.
02:41:16 There are the victims groups who have come out
02:41:20 publicly to say they are concerned that resident
02:41:23 restrictions may make it less safe for children in the
02:41:26 community.
02:41:33 The social history with Iowa in their resident
02:41:36 restrictions, people are backing up.

02:41:40 In Iowa now, the attorneys in Iowa have put out a
02:41:45 statement saying that resident restrictions have not
02:41:47 been effective.
02:41:48 Both Iowa and Kansas are now looking at eliminating
02:41:52 resident restrictions.
02:41:55 And what I would like to recommend to the Council is
02:42:00 that not to make it easier on sex offenders, but if
02:42:05 you're going to focus on management, include all the
02:42:08 people that have been documented to abuse children,
02:42:13 not just the predators that are on supervision and to
02:42:17 lower the resident restrictions to 300 feet and to
02:42:21 include proximity rules that would -- the loitering is
02:42:26 a way for law enforcement, if someone is in a
02:42:29 high-risk area.
02:42:31 When offenders reoffend, there are two elements that
02:42:33 occur.
02:42:35 Opportunity and desire.
02:42:37 A lot of adults have opportunity to abuse kids, but
02:42:40 they don't have the desire.
02:42:42 Sometimes people have the desire, and we want to limit
02:42:45 the opportunity through some of the work that you're
02:42:47 doing here.

02:42:50 So one of the biggest areas where we need help in
02:42:54 supplementing what's in the law right now is about
02:42:58 proximity rules for people going on to the school
02:43:01 grounds.
02:43:01 And you have included in your proposal the idea about
02:43:06 checking in with the school.
02:43:09 And I support that idea that if there are safety
02:43:14 plans, which in the legislature last year, if you look
02:43:19 at 948.30, a significant improvement in the
02:43:23 supervision of sex offenders has been contact with
02:43:25 children.
02:43:27 And if you require offenders that are going into the
02:43:32 school to have supervision while they are there, I
02:43:34 think that would be a significant improvement.
02:43:35 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Thank you for the presentation.
02:43:37 Mr. Fletcher, you have a question.
02:43:38 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Actually, he answered my question.
02:43:41 Thank you.
02:43:45 >>DAVID SMITH: Thank you again, Dr. Carter.
02:43:47 What we would like to do now is hear from Judy Cornett
02:43:51 and then we'll wrap this up with a quick summary.
02:43:59 >> Hello, everyone.

02:44:00 Thanks for having me.
02:44:02 My name is Judy Cornett.
02:44:06 I'm a mother of a victim.
02:44:08 In 1992, my son was kidnapped by a sex offender, Kevin
02:44:12 Kinder, if you are familiar with that case.
02:44:14 Since then, I've been on an educational journey trying
02:44:16 to learn the laws, the loopholes and the problems we
02:44:19 have, the pitfalls.
02:44:20 So I'm here to share with you my concern.
02:44:24 I strongly support safety zones.
02:44:27 That's the name of my organization, safety zones.
02:44:30 I also support the residency restrictions to a degree,
02:44:35 but there is a lot of controversy going on amongst
02:44:37 many, many states.
02:44:38 Iowa, Kansas, New York, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and
02:44:41 you guys can look into those yourself if you want.
02:44:44 I can provide you with the information.
02:44:45 But my biggest concern number one is priority to the
02:44:48 safety of the children.
02:44:49 Like Mrs. Alvarez was saying, our bus stops are a
02:44:53 great concern.
02:44:53 Even though my son wasn't on his way home from school,

02:44:58 it was after school that his abduction occurred at a
02:44:59 bus stop. The little boy in Parrish, that was at a
02:45:04 bus stop.
02:45:05 This is where sexual predators watch children.
02:45:07 They watch children unsupervised.
02:45:10 A lot of children walking home from school.
02:45:12 Not so much we have to worry about the children in
02:45:13 school, but we have to worry about the kids walking
02:45:16 home from school.
02:45:17 We have to worry about, I mean, at churches, they are
02:45:20 usually with their parents.
02:45:22 Children aren't running home from churches.
02:45:24 They are usually with their families.
02:45:25 Parks and recreation areas, I'm concerned about those
02:45:28 as well.
02:45:29 I kind of lost concept of my speech because of
02:45:32 everybody talking, I saw little red flags that I
02:45:34 wanted to bring up and answer some of your questions
02:45:38 just from somebody who has taken a lot of interest in
02:45:40 this and tried to figure out what the loopholes were
02:45:43 and pitfalls and talking with the state attorney's
02:45:45 office.

02:45:45 Talking with people at the department of corrections,
02:45:47 finding out where our problems of.
02:45:49 And it's a lot larger than just going out and creating
02:45:52 safe zones.
02:45:53 We've got a lot, a lot more issues that we have to
02:45:57 address.
02:45:58 We have the monitoring devices which Ms. Alvarez
02:46:01 brought up.
02:46:02 The monitoring device, no, not everybody has a
02:46:05 monitoring device.
02:46:07 The Jessica Lunsford act is a wonderful law that has
02:46:11 created problems with our state attorney's offices
02:46:14 because what is happening, people aren't wanting these
02:46:16 monitoring devices, so they are trying to find every
02:46:19 way possible to get around it.
02:46:21 And the state attorney's office is having to become
02:46:24 creative or allow these people to plea to a lesser
02:46:26 charge.
02:46:27 When they plea to a lesser charge, guess what, they
02:46:30 may not be a sex offender, but they are really a
02:46:32 danger.
02:46:33 Another concern is, I get really irritated when I hear

02:46:36 people talking about sexual predators.
02:46:38 What was Onstott?
02:46:40 Onstott was on offender?
02:46:42 Couey?
02:46:43 Couey was on offender.
02:46:44 Kevin Kinder was an offender.
02:46:46 We may only have 50 listed predators in Hillsborough
02:46:49 County, but I guarantee you a majority of our sex
02:46:53 offenders committed crimes against children were
02:46:56 sentenced before 1993.
02:46:57 That's a concern.
02:46:58 What concerns me is a lot of our predators, offenders
02:47:01 that are getting out now, they didn't get the sex
02:47:04 offender treatment prior to 1993, and that's when they
02:47:09 were sentenced.
02:47:09 The laws change in 1993.
02:47:12 Paul wells wrote the bill which came up with our sex
02:47:14 offenders predator guidelines.
02:47:16 Sex offenders that are being released today are the
02:47:19 old ones that committed the crimes against the
02:47:21 children.
02:47:21 They are the most dangerous.

02:47:23 Sex offenders that are getting charged today when they
02:47:25 come out, they are going to be the ones that I feel
02:47:27 may be more productive to society because they've had
02:47:30 a lot more than those from prior to 1993.
02:47:35 Mr. Harrison, I just want to say I support you,
02:47:38 because your concern is the children and that's what
02:47:40 my concern is, too.
02:47:41 We can create bills and laws and ordinances all day
02:47:44 long.
02:47:44 I got involved with Ronda Storms a while back ago when
02:47:49 they tried to pass an ordinance saying they would post
02:47:51 all sexual predators in the county parks.
02:47:54 It didn't happen because there wasn't the money for
02:47:56 it.
02:47:56 So we keep creating all these new things and there's
02:47:59 no money for it.
02:48:00 We need to start off with education.
02:48:01 We need to start educating families on how to keep
02:48:04 their children safe.
02:48:04 We need more parents involved in sitting at the bus
02:48:07 stops.
02:48:08 Yes, it's great to get the School Board to come up

02:48:10 with the money to put signs up and maybe change the
02:48:12 boundaries and stuff.
02:48:13 You know what, we need consistency.
02:48:15 We need to get to the bottom line and it's education.
02:48:18 I think that's the most important.
02:48:19 I do want to bring up a couple of other things.
02:48:23 We have a lot of other issues.
02:48:24 The safe zones are wonderful, but, you know, we have
02:48:27 sex offenders currently now that are bundling up
02:48:30 together in homes because they are being pushed out of
02:48:32 the 1,000-foot rule.
02:48:33 If it was up to me, I would like to get rid of all the
02:48:36 sex offenders.
02:48:37 I wish there was an island we could send them to.
02:48:40 I wish there was a life sentence that we could enforce
02:48:42 and take these guys away and make our children safer,
02:48:45 but that's not going to happen.
02:48:47 Reality is, whenever we come up with all these
02:48:50 restrictions, we're pushing them underground and
02:48:53 creating more of a threat to our children.
02:48:55 Just like Couey.
02:48:56 Couey wasn't even where he was supposed to be living.

02:48:59 He was hiding out at his mother's house or his
02:49:02 sister's house.
02:49:03 We need to find a true solution, and I think the true
02:49:06 solution will be education.
02:49:07 And I do support the new bill that will be coming out
02:49:10 with the 300-foot.
02:49:12 Like you said, people's concern is, well, how are we
02:49:15 going to mark these?
02:49:16 We have the 1,000-foot rule and the probation officers
02:49:19 are aware of that.
02:49:20 If they end up passing the bill and these guys are on
02:49:23 probation, I think the probation officers will
02:49:26 definitely enforce that these guys stay where they are
02:49:28 supposed to stay.
02:49:29 They do a great job.
02:49:31 Police department, sheriff's office, they are all
02:49:33 doing a great job.
02:49:34 I think the biggest problem is we're trying to come up
02:49:37 with too many solutions and we're not getting to the
02:49:40 core of the problem.
02:49:41 Basically what I want to say.
02:49:42 >>MARY ALVAREZ: How do you propose we educate?

02:49:46 >> Well, I have an organization, and we are now
02:49:49 setting up programs.
02:49:51 We have an adult program and we also have student
02:49:53 workshops that we'll be setting up, which is going to
02:49:55 educate people.
02:49:57 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Are you doing it through the schools?
02:49:59 >> We're going to do it to everybody.
02:50:00 We're going to do it to homeowners associations,
02:50:03 businesses, schools, churches, whoever wants it.
02:50:06 And what we're going to do is just basically give them
02:50:09 lay terminology.
02:50:10 We're going to try to take away the fear from people
02:50:14 who have a sex offender who moves into their
02:50:15 neighborhood and all they hear is sex offender.
02:50:18 They don't take the time to look into this guy's
02:50:20 history.
02:50:20 Nobody knows how to do it.
02:50:22 They don't even know who to call.
02:50:24 If we have a sex offender who violates -- say a sex
02:50:27 offender is out doing something that somebody just
02:50:30 doesn't think is right, we're blowing up the phones
02:50:32 calling the police department.

02:50:33 The police department can't do anything about it when
02:50:36 it's really a technical issue.
02:50:38 We need to educate people on who to call.
02:50:41 If a sexual predator or sexual offender lives in your
02:50:46 neighborhood, they need to take the time to find out
02:50:48 what this guy's history is or this woman.
02:50:50 They need to contact the probation officer.
02:50:52 Find out what his probation restrictions are.
02:50:54 If it says he's not to consume alcohol, if you see him
02:50:59 consume alcohol, you call his probation officer.
02:51:01 I had eight sex offenders arrested in the last year
02:51:05 because I've been watching them.
02:51:06 I've been keeping in contact with the probation
02:51:08 officers.
02:51:09 I had a sex offender in Colorado just sent back to
02:51:12 prison because I flew out twice and helped the
02:51:16 families keep an eye.
02:51:17 Become a liaison in law enforcement and department of
02:51:20 correction.
02:51:20 I learned the hard way.
02:51:22 A lot of people know me from protests back in the day.
02:51:26 Chasing Kevin kinder.

02:51:28 I ran him out of 11 neighborhoods in six months.
02:51:31 It was a lot of education I absorbed during that.
02:51:34 I learned how to do things the proper way.
02:51:36 What we need to do is take it back to education and
02:51:39 let people know the dos and don'ts of having sex
02:51:42 offenders in your neighborhood.
02:51:43 Know how to differentiate between the Romeo and Juliet
02:51:46 cases.
02:51:46 We don't need to spend our energy and time on getting
02:51:49 on to them for an 18-year-old, 20-year-old boy having
02:51:53 sexual contact with a 15-year-old.
02:51:55 It's not right, but it's not something that he needs
02:51:57 to live with for the rest of his life.
02:52:00 I think that's one of the things.
02:52:01 We just need to learn who these guys are.
02:52:03 And that's my concern.
02:52:06 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Well, I want to thank you for sharing
02:52:08 your experiences with us.
02:52:12 >> Thanks for listening.
02:52:13 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Your boy is okay?
02:52:16 >> It's been a long journey for us.
02:52:18 If you recall, my son three years ago got locked up in

02:52:23 the same cell with the sex offender after 14 years.
02:52:28 And a big altercation broke out.
02:52:30 My son is now writing a book and doing poetry.
02:52:33 We've had some officers to do some shows to help
02:52:35 spread the word on getting help.
02:52:37 My son is doing much better.
02:52:39 He started his own business.
02:52:40 He served a little bit of time in prison, 13 months.
02:52:44 He's doing good.
02:52:45 It's all been a lesson.
02:52:47 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Thank you so much.
02:52:50 >>SHAWN HARRISON: That is really moving, because what
02:52:52 happened to your son may have very well, you know,
02:52:56 impacted him so greatly that he committed a crime, and
02:53:01 ended up in the same prison cell or jail cell.
02:53:05 The unforeseen consequences of this happening to a
02:53:09 child are just amazing.
02:53:12 And we all applaud your bravery for continuing this
02:53:15 fight and thank you for sharing that story with us.
02:53:17 We're on your side here.
02:53:18 Mr. Smith.
02:53:20 >>DAVID SMITH: David Smith, City Attorney.

02:53:22 I would like to add my thanks to Judy Cornett for
02:53:26 coming down here.
02:53:27 I know that's not an easy thing to do.
02:53:29 She certainly has the passion and understanding and
02:53:31 that's always helpful.
02:53:33 I would like to shorten this a little bit because you
02:53:35 have a lot of reading and thinking to do.
02:53:37 What I'll ask Julie to do is pass out a summary that
02:53:40 she's prepared that talks about the pending
02:53:42 legislation statewide.
02:53:43 So she will pass that out to you.
02:53:45 And you're going to need some time to look at it and
02:53:48 digest it.
02:53:49 And I think what we need to do is talk a little bit
02:53:51 about where we're going from here, where you want us
02:53:54 to go from here.
02:53:55 If you would like a further elaboration on the
02:53:59 position of the city vis-a-vis the county, Ms. Kert
02:54:04 could do that or alternatively, she can provide you a
02:54:07 written summary.
02:54:08 Part of the problem is they, too, are dealing with a
02:54:11 moving target.

02:54:11 We have a revision of the ordinance I believe this
02:54:15 morning.
02:54:17 So it's certainly timely and it's certainly important.
02:54:20 We don't want to mess it up, but by the same token, we
02:54:23 don't want to wait overly long either.
02:54:26 So want some direction from you.
02:54:28 I think we provided you a pretty good understanding of
02:54:30 all the problems, and now we have to start working on
02:54:33 some of the solutions.
02:54:33 I think we've provided some solutions, but you guys
02:54:35 have to make the tough calls.
02:54:37 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Seems to me like the biggest things
02:54:39 we heard about today were the bus stop, how do we
02:54:42 tighten that language up so that we're going to be
02:54:48 protective, but that we don't create a glaring
02:54:50 constitutional problem right on the face of the
02:54:52 statute.
02:54:53 And maybe it is simply by adding "while children are
02:54:57 present."
02:54:58 And I don't know, you all can figure that out.
02:55:01 And if you come back and you say honestly we don't
02:55:04 think we can address the school bus stops because they

02:55:08 do move around so much, then you're just going to have
02:55:12 to let us know that, and we'll go forward -- I feel
02:55:16 like we'll probably go forward without it and try to
02:55:18 figure out a way to add it later.
02:55:20 The other thing that I saw was the predators versus
02:55:23 offenders.
02:55:24 And that's a bigger issue.
02:55:28 I think what we've heard is we would like it to apply
02:55:30 to offender, but TPD, it sounds to me like, although I
02:55:34 don't know if anyone from TPD was here other than
02:55:36 Mr. Rainsberger, that to get started, we need to limit
02:55:41 it to predators because we know who they are.
02:55:45 I'm not saying that that's the right way to go, but
02:55:48 what -- what's the county doing?
02:55:50 Are they limiting it to predators, or are they going
02:55:52 to offenders as well?
02:55:55 >> The county has limited it to predators.
02:55:58 >>MARY ALVAREZ: See, I agree with Ms. Cornett.
02:56:02 She has the opposite viewpoint on this.
02:56:04 She's saying offenders.
02:56:05 >> And I think the other point -- but I also think
02:56:11 that the mental health expert -- Dr. Carter, also made

02:56:17 a similar statement, observation about those not being
02:56:23 terribly useful terms in this regard.
02:56:26 So my sense would be to have it apply to offenders and
02:56:34 predators.
02:56:34 However, as we've had in other drafts and I did not
02:56:38 read closely enough this draft to know if it's still
02:56:41 in there, have it focused on just those individuals
02:56:44 who have preyed on people, children under 16, and that
02:56:49 category as the state law applies to for the residency
02:56:54 restrictions.
02:56:55 So that is kind of the universe in my mind that we
02:56:58 were looking at, not necessarily every offender in the
02:57:01 entire city, but focused on children, because what
02:57:05 we're defining our areas in which children congregate.
02:57:10 >> If I could attempt to provide a little bit of
02:57:12 distillation of what I think you heard, what I've been
02:57:15 reading and all the various things we've been talking
02:57:17 about, one of the primary issues, and I believe
02:57:20 Dr. Carter addressed this and I believe also
02:57:22 Ms. Cornett, it's not so much the residency issue as
02:57:27 the exclusion zones which does move us a little closer
02:57:30 to the county's position which has the benefit of

02:57:32 having a unified approach.
02:57:34 The state has addressed the residency issue maybe
02:57:37 perfectly or adequately.
02:57:38 It may be that we like the county want to focus on the
02:57:41 exclusionaries, and that what we want to do is try to
02:57:45 see what we can do to tighten those down, make them as
02:57:48 enforceable as possible.
02:57:49 Provide the police officers and the sheriff officers
02:57:53 who have to enforce these things, a basis for
02:57:57 proceeding.
02:57:59 And the odd thing about this is sometimes the
02:58:01 solutions occur to you as you're going through it.
02:58:04 The idea of limiting it to while children were at the
02:58:07 bus stops is not something we've discussed, but it may
02:58:09 literally be the solution.
02:58:10 Because there's sort of a notice inherent in that.
02:58:14 Bus stop.
02:58:14 If there are kids there, waiting, looking like they
02:58:16 are waiting for a bus.
02:58:18 Be that as it may, what I need you guys to do is maybe
02:58:21 make some decisions in that regard, focus on the
02:58:25 exclusion zones.

02:58:26 Let's look at what we can do to clarify those areas
02:58:29 that are going to be affected, tighten those
02:58:31 regulations down, tighten the monitoring down.
02:58:34 I think Dr. Carter also said some of the requirements
02:58:37 we have in here about reporting to the principal,
02:58:39 reporting perhaps to the library and whatever the
02:58:42 facilities are so that we have accountability.
02:58:45 Those are the ways we might be able to most
02:58:47 effectively protect the children, where they are,
02:58:51 having the adults know what is going on as part of the
02:58:53 educational process also.
02:58:54 And get these people who are responsible for these
02:58:58 facilities, the principals, the librarians, et cetera,
02:59:01 and maybe get them exposed to the program Cornett
02:59:04 offers.
02:59:05 And through the educational process and tightly drawn
02:59:07 ordinance, maybe we can have the kinds of efficacy
02:59:10 we're looking for.
02:59:11 If that's the sense of Council, and I don't want to
02:59:13 presuppose that, but it seems like from what I'm
02:59:16 hearing that may be the most effective route to go.
02:59:20 >>MARY ALVAREZ: I still want to keep the school bus

02:59:23 stops in there somewhere.
02:59:24 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I think we all agree to that to the
02:59:27 extent we can constitutionally do that, we want to
02:59:30 keep that.
02:59:30 I think what Mr. Fletcher said about extending it to
02:59:33 offenders, I think we probably all agree with that as
02:59:35 well.
02:59:36 And that we do -- the Romeo and Juliet scenario, try
02:59:41 to exclude that.
02:59:42 We all agree with that.
02:59:45 Other than that, I think that you probably know where
02:59:49 to go with this.
02:59:50 I think that we've all probably moved off of the
02:59:52 extending the residency restrictions.
02:59:57 I think we all agree that may do more harm than good.
03:00:00 If we focus on the exclusionary zones, that's a great
03:00:03 first step.
03:00:04 >> I think so, too.
03:00:05 >>SHAWN HARRISON: How long will it take you all to
03:00:06 have that ordinance prepared.
03:00:08 We're not asking for it next week or anything like
03:00:09 that.

03:00:12 Two weeks, three weeks?
03:00:17 >> Do you want time to resolve the drafting issues
03:00:19 with the county?
03:00:20 Is that something you're going to try and --
03:00:22 >> I think it's important to try to do that, because
03:00:24 we have such a huge common border.
03:00:26 What do we do with a park that straddles the line?
03:00:29 What do we do with a school that abuts the line?
03:00:34 It would be helpful if we could come up with a unified
03:00:36 approach.
03:00:36 We may not be able to.
03:00:37 But if we can, then the issue is, do we want to enact
03:00:39 a city ordinance if the county ordinance applies in
03:00:42 the city anyway?
03:00:43 Why don't we set a date to come back.
03:00:46 We may end up sending you a memo saying we're real
03:00:49 close to working something out.
03:00:50 Let's set the three-week time period.
03:00:52 And if we have to, we'll provide you a memo or request
03:00:56 if we need more time.
03:00:57 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Will that be the first public
03:00:59 hearing on an ordinance?

03:01:00 Or will that be another, here is what our final
03:01:02 recommendations are, now let's set the public hearing?
03:01:05 >>DAVID SMITH: I think what you want to do, you want
03:01:07 to move to the ordinance sequence.
03:01:09 That may be a little optimistic to do in three weeks.
03:01:12 But I would think we ought to be shooting towards
03:01:14 that.
03:01:15 I know the county has got theirs in an ordinance form.
03:01:18 Have they set their first public hearing?
03:01:20 They did set their first public hearing.
03:01:22 So that's moving along pretty rapidly.
03:01:26 How much notice do we have to give to have the first
03:01:30 public hearing in three weeks?
03:01:32 >>MARY ALVAREZ: It's going to go into April.
03:01:36 >>DAVID SMITH: We have to have ten days' notice.
03:01:39 Why don't we see what we can do in three weeks.
03:01:43 We need to back it up 10 days from there in order to
03:01:46 meet the notice requirement.
03:01:47 If we can't meet that notice requirement, we'll let
03:01:49 you know and maybe move it to the next week or the
03:01:51 next week thereafter.
03:01:53 As soon as we can get it set and meet the notice

03:01:55 requirement and have an ordinance that is tightly
03:01:58 drafted and meets your goals.
03:02:00 >>SHAWN HARRISON: We'll shoot for three weeks with an
03:02:02 ordinance.
03:02:03 If we can't have the ordinance ready, we'll have a
03:02:06 draft ordinance with your final revisions, but this
03:02:09 will be on the agenda in three weeks and to the extent
03:02:11 that we can get the notice stuff done ten days in
03:02:14 advance, let's do that.
03:02:17 We have a motion to that effect.
03:02:18 Motion and second.
03:02:19 All in favor of that, signify by saying aye.
03:02:22 Opposed.
03:02:22 The motion carries unanimously.
03:02:24 Thank you, Mr. Smith.
03:02:26 Is that all we have on the agenda, clerk?
03:02:31 We don't need to offer public comment at this section
03:02:34 of the agenda since we've already done that, correct?
03:02:37 >> Yes, I believe there was nobody present at the end
03:02:39 of the meeting.
03:02:39 If you wish to make it official, you could just ask if
03:02:42 there's anyone who would like to speak.

03:02:44 >>SHAWN HARRISON: Is there anyone in the public who
03:02:46 wants to speak on any item?
03:02:48 All right, Ms. Cornett.
03:02:49 >> You brought to my attention, when you were talking
03:02:52 about how to differentiate with the sex offenders and
03:02:54 who to put on the safe zone list and what have you,
03:02:57 Paul wells also wrote another bill that wasn't passed.
03:03:00 Victor Crist took it to legislation back in I believe
03:03:02 2002.
03:03:03 It was level of dangers.
03:03:04 And I think if we could maybe get level of dangers on
03:03:07 these sex offenders, then the least dangerous would be
03:03:10 the Romeo and Juliet cases.
03:03:12 The most dangerous would be those who committed crimes
03:03:15 against children.
03:03:16 That could be something we could also use to get as
03:03:19 part of the safe zone restrictions and put them on the
03:03:22 predator list.
03:03:25 >>MARY ALVAREZ: Is that the three tiers we have in the
03:03:27 ordinance already?
03:03:27 >> No, we have two tiers.
03:03:29 >>SHAWN HARRISON: I think that's part of the education

03:03:32 process.
03:03:32 I mean, obviously, TPD is not going to be out looking
03:03:35 for the 20-year-old and the 15-year-old.
03:03:37 They are going to be looking for the worst of the
03:03:39 worst and that's what they'll focus on.
03:03:41 Mr. Fletcher.
03:03:41 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I think we had discussed this
03:03:43 concept earlier.
03:03:44 I think changing the classifications is included in
03:03:49 one or more of the bills pending in Tallahassee right
03:03:51 now.
03:03:52 But at present, we've been focusing on trying to track
03:03:58 the state processes as closely as possible so that the
03:04:00 individuals that are tracked by FDLE that are on the
03:04:03 Web site -- that information is easily transferable
03:04:10 under the city's ordinance and enforcement using that
03:04:12 information and so that we have consistency between
03:04:13 the county and the city.
03:04:16 We did discuss that and the advice we got, I think,
03:04:19 was to focus on at this point until state law changes
03:04:25 on the classifications that we have in state law so
03:04:27 that it can be directly enforced by local law
03:04:30 enforcement.
03:04:31 >> Right, right.
03:04:32 Also, we need to also bring to people's attention that
03:04:34 when we look on the FDLE Web site and we see the sex
03:04:38 offenders charges, those are -- that wasn't what they
03:04:42 were actually convicted of it makes them look as
03:04:46 though they are not as dangerous.
03:04:47 >>SHAWN HARRISON: All right. If there's no further
03:04:49 public comment, we are adjourned until 5:30 this
03:04:51 evening.
03:04:53 (The meeting was adjourned at 3:05 p.m.)