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08:57:47 Tampa City Council.
08:57:48 Tampa City Council.
08:57:48 Tampa City Council.
Thursday, May 24, 2007
9:00 a.m. Session

09:04:26 Nate Welch.
09:04:30 Tampa City Council.
09:04:31 Tampa City Council.
09:04:35 Thursday, May 24, 2007.
09:04:40 9:00 a.m. session.
09:06:43 [Sounding gavel]
09:06:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.
09:06:48 The chair will yield to Mr. Joseph Caetano.
09:06:53 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: This morning we have the pleasure
09:06:54 of introducing Father Andrew Wright from Sacred Heart
09:06:58 Church who is going to give our invocation.
09:07:00 At the completion of that, please stand for the pledge
09:07:02 of allegiance.
09:07:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Would you please stand?
09:07:14 >>> Almighty God, as we begin this new day, give as
09:07:19 our city leaders gather to meet we pray for wisdom and
09:07:23 insight as challenges are dealt with in this assembly.
09:07:27 As our city continues to grow and change, may these be

09:07:31 times of creativity and opportunity.
09:07:34 May we always be a welcoming city where people are
09:07:37 valued.
09:07:39 May we never forget the poor and those who struggle
09:07:42 with danger in their existence.
09:07:46 May provisions among people be dealt with and strife
09:07:49 to be at peace with all.
09:07:50 There is much to be done.
09:07:52 We pray for your guidance.
09:07:54 We pray for your help.
09:07:56 We pray for this as always in your name, you who have
09:08:00 been reigned forever and ever.
09:08:02 Amen.
09:08:05 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:08:22 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:08:24 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:08:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:08:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:08:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT:
09:08:31 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
09:08:32 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:08:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.

09:08:33 At this time I am going to give a commendation to Mr.
09:08:38 Nathaniel Welch.
09:08:41 Would you please come forward?
09:09:01 Council members, it is my pleasure this morning to
09:09:03 give this commendation to this young man who -- he
09:09:09 said he did what he thought was right for this person.
09:09:11 And I can't say enough about him.
09:09:13 Because I don't know of anyone else that would have
09:09:15 the bravery to do what he did.
09:09:17 I am going to lead read this.
09:09:19 Tampa City Council would like to give this
09:09:21 commendation to Mr. Nathaniel Welch in grateful
09:09:24 recognition of your courageous effort displayed on
09:09:28 April 26, 2007, when a new Tampa resident's home was
09:09:33 on fire.
09:09:36 The resident was calling for help.
09:09:38 He did not hesitate to go and rescue the woman by
09:09:42 entering the burning home and saving the life of her
09:09:47 wheelchair bound.
09:09:48 Your action to save the live of the wheelchair bound
09:09:51 woman and much grief of a family in need.
09:09:54 Therefore we members of the Tampa City Council would

09:09:56 like to commend you and say thank you for your acts of
09:09:59 kindness and bravery, signed by all the council
09:10:02 members.
09:10:03 [ Applause ]
09:10:29 >>> I would like to thank City Council an all the
09:10:33 people who gave me compliments through the week after
09:10:37 this.
09:10:38 And thanks a lot, everyone.
09:10:42 And I didn't do anything no more than I believe either
09:10:46 one of you all would have.
09:10:51 [ Applause ]
09:11:00 >>> Butch hill, utility accounting manager.
09:11:02 We have about 30 folks in utility accounting that are
09:11:04 just out doing their jobs every day, turning on
09:11:07 meters, turning off meters, getting meter readings,
09:11:10 and Nate has been an outstanding employee for over 27
09:11:14 years.
09:11:15 Part of his large family is here to support him.
09:11:18 Both of his supervisors are here.
09:11:20 And many of his co-workers.
09:11:21 I would like them to stand, also, in the back.
09:11:26 [ Applause ]

09:11:34 >>GWEN MILLER: At this time Mr. Charlie Miranda has
09:11:36 some commendations he would like to present.
09:11:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We are so proud, Nate, that you are
09:11:45 part of our family and that you represent all that's
09:11:47 good in this city and for you to go in there and risk
09:11:50 your life so admirably is something that this
09:11:53 community will never forget.
09:11:55 Thank you very much.
09:12:01 >>> Thank you.
09:12:18 >>> I'm here to make two commendations to people that
09:12:22 really deserve it and I also want to thank people that
09:12:25 voted in the last city election.
09:12:27 That's wonderful.
09:12:28 But -- at least voted for the right persons.
09:12:42 The first one is to the links project, the massive
09:12:45 construction work that's around the airport for all
09:12:48 the city departments or most of them anyway, and a lot
09:12:51 of individuals from outside the city came in to get
09:12:54 together and work to make Tampa a better place to live
09:12:57 and a better place to move around.
09:13:00 At this time I would like to bring up the district 7,
09:13:04 district utility administrator for the Florida

09:13:06 Department of Transportation, Mr. John Hubler.
09:13:11 I would also like to mention the names of a few that
09:13:14 were here.
09:13:14 Steve Daignault, the administrator of public works,
09:13:21 Chris, the chief design engineer, Janet Hutchinson,
09:13:25 Brian Macheto and former employee of the city legal
09:13:29 department Cathy who worked with Mr. Hubler.
09:13:39 >>> Good morning.
09:13:40 It's a pleasure to come before you on behalf of the
09:13:43 Department of Transportation.
09:13:44 The Tampa Airport change project was a real success
09:13:48 and we were able to coordinate the relocation of 12
09:13:51 public utilities into a specific utility corridor.
09:13:54 And that really helped expedite the construction of
09:13:56 the project by getting the utilities relocated in
09:14:00 advance.
09:14:01 It shows what the teamwork and cooperation can do when
09:14:03 the state and the City of Tampa and our design
09:14:07 consultants can get together and really produce such a
09:14:09 successful project.
09:14:11 This particular award is issued by the United States
09:14:13 Department of Transportation, federal highway

09:14:16 administration, to the City of Tampa, and it says this
09:14:19 award recognizes the links 1 utility corridor project
09:14:22 which provided advanced funding and relocation of
09:14:26 utility facilities of 12 companies into one structure
09:14:30 designed to also function as a multi-use trail
09:14:34 reducing the time and cost of reconstructing State
09:14:36 Road 60 in Tampa, Florida, signed by federal highway
09:14:40 administrator.
09:14:42 I would like to offer this plaque to Mr. Chris
09:14:44 Barkland on behalf of the City of Tampa to represent
09:14:48 his staff.
09:14:51 [ Applause ]
09:15:01 The folks you see here this morning are just one small
09:15:04 segment. People working on the project.
09:15:06 As John said there were nine utilities relocated.
09:15:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We can't see them unless they
09:15:11 squish behind you.
09:15:12 So they are going to have to come in behind you.
09:15:14 >>> There were nine utilities relocated.
09:15:16 This is something sort of unique in this area of the
09:15:18 country.
09:15:19 We have never done it before.

09:15:21 Brian was our project manager, Janet Hutchinson was
09:15:24 our contract administrator.
09:15:26 We drove her nuts for probably three and a half months
09:15:29 trying to coordinate nine different agreements with
09:15:32 nine different agencies to get the job done.
09:15:37 Thank you.
09:15:42 >> I want to compliment you.
09:15:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Wait, wait, wait.
09:15:47 >> I notice he wasn't directly involved but he was
09:15:49 involved in other projects, Brad Baird, director of
09:15:52 the water department.
09:15:53 So Brad Baird and Steve Daignault and Steve and
09:15:59 Brian -- I would like to make this presentation and
09:16:03 read the commendation.
09:16:04 A partnership comprise of the Florida Department of
09:16:06 Transportation, Tampa Electric Company, TECO gas,
09:16:11 Bright House, Verizon, City of Tampa, and the
09:16:14 wastewater department, all of those individuals were
09:16:18 key to making this project for you a success, and for
09:16:20 the betterment of the livability community of the
09:16:23 Tampa Bay area.
09:16:27 I guess he's the boss so I'll give it to the boss.

09:16:31 [ Applause ]
09:16:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Gentlemen, I don't know if you
09:16:44 remember back to the genesis of this idea, but it came
09:16:48 from the Courtney Campbell scenic corridor committee.
09:16:52 We were trying to think of a way to connect Courtney
09:16:55 Campbell on both sides.
09:16:58 And on the Hillsborough side, we realized that we had
09:17:01 a beautiful park at cypress point park.
09:17:04 And then we have our Ben T. Davis beach but didn't
09:17:08 have a way to connect in between.
09:17:09 So the City of Tampa, Mike Salmon was there at the
09:17:14 time, called all the utilities together and said, we
09:17:15 can create this utility corridor, which will benefit
09:17:21 the process of building a roadway.
09:17:23 But it will also benefit the public because this
09:17:25 corridor is available for use by the public.
09:17:27 And it was a collaborative effort with the City of
09:17:31 Tampa providing leadership.
09:17:33 And I'm so grateful to all of you.
09:17:35 I think this initial conversation was about six or
09:17:39 seven years ago.
09:17:40 It took awhile.

09:17:41 But I'm so pleased that you have done this.
09:17:43 And it will really benefit all of us.
09:17:45 So thank you so much.
09:17:46 I deeply appreciate it.
09:17:53 >>> The second commendation goes for the public works
09:17:55 and utility service departments.
09:17:57 This is an honor of mention of public works week May
09:18:03 20-26, 2007.
09:18:04 We thank all of you for what you do.
09:18:06 We are proud to recognize your public works and
09:18:09 utility employees for the dedication, commitment to
09:18:11 the growth, the quality of life in our community.
09:18:16 At this time, the same individual who heads the public
09:18:19 works department, we all know it's Mr. Steve
09:18:21 Daignault, Brian Baird, John Portis and Floyd Emerson.
09:18:27 Would you please come forward and receive this on
09:18:29 behalf of all the employees that works in the
09:18:30 different public works department of the City of
09:18:32 Tampa?
09:18:34 [ Applause ]
09:18:56 >>> Good morning.
09:18:57 You are going to see some folks in coats and ties but

09:19:00 also people who do the actual work.
09:19:02 They are not recognized enough and they should be.
09:19:05 >> It's nice to be recognized.
09:19:11 Again there's a lot of folks that aren't here that do
09:19:14 a whole lot for this city every day, day in, day out,
09:19:17 24 hours of the day, and again it's nice to have just
09:19:20 a representation of folks here today to have that
09:19:23 recognition.
09:19:24 So we say thank you very much.
09:19:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Daignault, on behalf of City
09:19:45 Council we definitely want to express our appreciation
09:19:48 to the hard working people in all the different public
09:19:53 works and utilities departments.
09:19:55 And you guys are just representatives of hundreds if
09:19:57 not thousands of others just like you.
09:20:00 And we appreciate what you do.
09:20:01 City Council appreciates what you do.
09:20:02 The mayor appreciates what you do day in and day out.
09:20:05 Thank you so much.
09:20:08 [ Applause ]
09:20:10 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to approval of the agenda.
09:20:38 Mrs. Saul-Sena.

09:20:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I know that there are some citizens
09:20:42 who want to be able to comment during the discussion
09:20:45 of number 7, which is the historic preservation
09:20:48 ordinance, or prior to it or doing it or at some
09:20:55 point.
09:20:55 I would like to move to waive the rules to allow
09:20:58 public comment on number 7.
09:21:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Saul-Sena, I don't think you need
09:21:02 to waive the rules because they can speak because it's
09:21:04 the second reading, isn't it?
09:21:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But it's placed into our staff
09:21:09 reports.
09:21:09 And according to the way our agenda is set up, the
09:21:12 public comment is not till afterwards.
09:21:14 And I know that they would like to -- we could wait
09:21:18 till after they speak before we take action.
09:21:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby?
09:21:22 >>MARTIN SHELBY: This is here for presentation by the
09:21:24 staff, based on council's discussion last week, and
09:21:29 also for a decision point that council needs to make
09:21:32 based on a tie vote.
09:21:33 Then this will be presented for first reading.

09:21:35 So if you do wish to have public comment before taking
09:21:39 any action on first read, you would have to move
09:21:42 public comment for that item before that item is on
09:21:45 the agenda.
09:21:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's what I'm trying to say.
09:21:48 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Are we going to do this for
09:21:53 something people come here at all hours for something
09:21:57 they have to wait all day.
09:21:58 Are we going to make this a rule change for every
09:22:00 meeting?
09:22:00 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
09:22:01 If you don't think it should be there, then you can
09:22:03 vote it down.
09:22:04 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Okay, thank you.
09:22:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other comments?
09:22:07 We have a motion an second.
09:22:08 All in favor of that motion say Aye.
09:22:10 Opposed, Nay.
09:22:19 Wait till Mr. Miranda comes.
09:22:23 Ooh.
09:22:24 >> If this is done as a motion to waive the rules of
09:22:26 requires a unanimous vote of council.

09:22:27 If it requires your changing the order of the agenda,
09:22:30 then it would be on the approval of the agenda.
09:22:33 Then it would take a majority vote.
09:22:36 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: So it's a tie vote then.
09:22:42 >> At this stage the motion I heard was to waive the
09:22:44 rules.
09:22:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Right.
09:22:45 You need majority vote.
09:22:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You need unanimous vote.
09:22:48 >>GWEN MILLER: That vote failed.
09:22:50 Any items to pull from the agenda, Mr. Dingfelder?
09:22:55 We need to approve the agenda.
09:22:56 >> So moved.
09:22:57 >> Second.
09:22:57 (Motion carried).
09:23:00 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to Mr. Sal Territo from staff.
09:23:07 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
09:23:08 I'm here on actually two items.
09:23:10 Item number 54 on your agenda is a continued public
09:23:13 hearing to hear from Hart.
09:23:15 As you know, they have sent the letter with a drawing
09:23:18 request.

09:23:19 Since it's a continued public hearing you have to wait
09:23:21 until 10:00 to actually take that particular action.
09:23:24 Also, if it's your pleasure to do so, I have the City
09:23:27 Council counterpart to the CRA action that you took
09:23:30 this morning, which I could submit at this time, or if
09:23:32 you prefer, we could put it on the doc agenda and
09:23:35 they'll come back in two weeks.
09:23:36 But I do have them available if you want to take them
09:23:38 at this time.
09:23:39 >>GWEN MILLER: We could take them at this time.
09:23:42 >>SAL TERRITO: Let me read what they are.
09:23:44 This is the resolution approving the service
09:23:46 agreements for Central Park, the Channel District,
09:23:50 downtown districts, Drew Park, East Tampa, the old
09:23:56 Tampa Police Department site, and Ybor City 1 and Ybor
09:24:00 City 2.
09:24:05 >> Move the resolution.
09:24:06 >> Second.
09:24:06 (Motion carried).
09:24:07 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to unfinished business, item
09:24:10 number 4.
09:24:12 Mr. Brad Baird.

09:24:17 >>> Good morning, Madam Chair, and council members.
09:24:21 Jan McLean for legal.
09:24:24 I'm here this morning to respond in part to item 4,
09:24:28 with regard to legal feasibility of reducing size of
09:24:31 the city's water service area.
09:24:33 Just to give you a brief background, and actually my
09:24:37 response to that request is very brief.
09:24:39 In 1978, legislation was passed that required the city
09:24:42 and the county to enter into an interlocal agreement
09:24:45 regarding the provision of water and sewer services to
09:24:48 each other.
09:24:51 There were several requirements that the interlocal
09:24:53 agreement must contain, including the designation of
09:24:55 the service areas, and within that geographic service
09:25:00 area, within which the city will provide water supply
09:25:04 for domestic municipal governmental or industrial
09:25:08 uses.
09:25:09 In 1979, in compliance with that legislation, the city
09:25:12 and the county did enter into such interlocal
09:25:15 agreement, which remains in effect today.
09:25:17 The interlocal agreement has a duration of 40 years.
09:25:20 So through 2019.

09:25:22 It is not allowed to be altered unless mutually agreed
09:25:26 upon.
09:25:27 And there has been one amendment to the agreement
09:25:32 which required a true-up of the service agreements so
09:25:38 we would have an identification where the actual
09:25:39 boundaries are.
09:25:40 Beyond that nothing has been amended in that
09:25:42 agreement.
09:25:43 At the termination, if nothing is further amended to
09:25:46 that agreement, then the agreement would go through
09:25:49 2019.
09:25:50 But as the legislation still stands, my reading of it
09:25:53 would require us to once again enter into an
09:25:56 interlocal agreement with the county to identify the
09:26:00 certain requirements of that legislation.
09:26:02 So to get back to the particular question that was
09:26:05 asked of me, the legal feasibility of reducing the
09:26:08 size of the city's water service area on a gradual
09:26:11 basis back to the city limits, is not feasible, unless
09:26:16 mutually agreed upon with the county, or at the
09:26:22 termination of the agreement, when it would be
09:26:24 renegotiated.

09:26:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mrs. McLean.
09:26:30 I appreciate that.
09:26:31 You know, we have been sort of talking about this for,
09:26:34 I don't know, maybe the last year or so, just a little
09:26:37 bit at the time.
09:26:38 Just to give council members a little bit of
09:26:40 background.
09:26:41 The City of Tampa residents, approximately 350,000,
09:26:45 thereabouts, I read in the paper the other day, I
09:26:48 think our service area is much large larger and goes
09:26:52 beyond the city limits and includes another 250 to
09:26:55 300,000 customers, individual customers.
09:27:00 We all know from reports from Mr. Baird and from what
09:27:04 we read in the paper, et cetera, and from our own
09:27:07 knowledge, that periodically we have water shortages.
09:27:11 We have a drought right now that hopefully everybody
09:27:14 that's watching is well aware of.
09:27:16 And as a result, now we are having to buy significant
09:27:19 amounts of water from Tampa Bay water.
09:27:23 Okay.
09:27:24 Well, that would be fine, except for the fact -- and I
09:27:28 got some numbers recently.

09:27:31 We purchased, in a week's time, in the last couple of
09:27:35 weeks, we purchased more than 200 million gallons of
09:27:38 water from Tampa Bay water at a cost of $472,000,
09:27:42 almost a half million dollars.
09:27:44 Here's the kicker of this.
09:27:45 Okay.
09:27:46 When we buy water from Tampa Bay water, we buy it, and
09:27:50 Brad, you probably want to come up.
09:27:51 Jan, this is not so much legal at this point.
09:27:53 We buy it at a rate that's three times the rate that
09:27:57 we can produce it out of the river ourselves.
09:28:01 And I'm looking at it specifically.
09:28:03 It says we are purchasing water from Tampa Bay water
09:28:06 at $2.20 per thousand gallons, and we produce it at a
09:28:10 cost of 65 to 70 cents per thousand gallons.
09:28:16 So, you know, that's very significant to me.
09:28:20 Because that means that every time the city has to go
09:28:24 over to Tampa Bay water to buy, you know, hundreds of
09:28:29 millions of gallons of water, it's a losing venture
09:28:34 for the city -- for city residents, okay?
09:28:38 And the city residents effectively, it's our dam.
09:28:42 It's our river.

09:28:44 At least that section of it.
09:28:46 It's our water.
09:28:47 That's the way I think the law has been over the
09:28:48 years.
09:28:49 And so the reason I bring this up is, what are the
09:28:54 possibilities?
09:28:55 What are the long-term possibilities?
09:28:57 Because we all know that when you look at these
09:29:00 issues, you don't look at them short-term.
09:29:02 You don't look at them, what are our water needs over
09:29:06 the next six months?
09:29:07 The water needs studies that I have seen talk about
09:29:09 over the next 20 years, okay?
09:29:11 So it's very interesting, and Ms. McLean just told us
09:29:17 that there is a legal opportunity for the city to
09:29:19 withdraw from this responsibility.
09:29:26 We have a responsibility today, and we are not
09:29:28 shirking it.
09:29:29 We have a legal obligation today to continue to
09:29:31 service these non-city residents for the next 12
09:29:33 years.
09:29:36 Okay?

09:29:36 But we also know that the city is going to be
09:29:39 growing -- and I am going to ask Mr. Daignault and
09:29:42 Mr. Baird -- what is our projection on city growth
09:29:44 over the next 20 years?
09:29:46 Okay?
09:29:47 I've heard that it's several hundred thousand more
09:29:50 people that we are going to have to supply with water
09:29:54 over that period of time.
09:29:55 And that's just within the city limits, not
09:29:57 necessarily outside in the service area.
09:30:01 So my whole point is -- and I think this is a
09:30:05 rhetorical question.
09:30:07 I know that we have not done a comprehensive financial
09:30:10 analysis of this issue, okay, of the possibility in
09:30:15 the long-term of reducing our service area, choking it
09:30:22 back closer to the city limits, knowing that this is
09:30:24 an opportunity for us possibly to save our taxpayers
09:30:29 and our residents and our city residents money on
09:30:32 their water bills.
09:30:34 And this is not theoretical, because Mr. Baird and Mr.
09:30:39 Daignault and their financial people, Mr. Stefan, are
09:30:42 going to be coming to the council in the next couple

09:30:43 of weeks asking us to pass a pass-through to our rate
09:30:49 payers for water, and that pass-through has one
09:30:52 specific reason for existence.
09:30:53 That pass-through exists because we are buying this
09:30:58 Tampa Bay water, and we don't have the money in our
09:31:00 reserves to keep paying for it without increasing the
09:31:03 rates to make those payments.
09:31:07 Okay.
09:31:08 So this is a very, very real issue that is hitting us
09:31:10 right now.
09:31:11 Now, can we do anything about it today?
09:31:13 No K.we do anything about it next month?
09:31:15 No.
09:31:16 But over the next 12 years we could have a long-range
09:31:19 plan working with the county to say, okay, our
09:31:21 obviously delegation only goes for 12 more years and
09:31:24 at that period of time we are going to start pulling
09:31:26 back gradually and delegate, and divesting ourselves
09:31:30 of some of these non-city customers.
09:31:34 That's my thought.
09:31:36 I think -- every time we do any of these things, we
09:31:41 study them.

09:31:41 We study the issue.
09:31:43 And in this case, I'm sorry, Joe, we might actually
09:31:45 have to pay a consultant to study it, because I'm not
09:31:48 sure that we can do it in-house.
09:31:50 Frankly from the results I have been seeing, I'm not
09:31:52 sure that in-house is truly an objective place to look
09:31:55 at it.
09:31:56 I think we need a truly objective outside perspective
09:31:58 of this issue.
09:31:59 But why wouldn't we put a little bit of money to study
09:32:04 it financially?
09:32:06 Because it is so, so important to our city rate
09:32:10 payers.
09:32:11 And we only have a fiduciary obligation to our city --
09:32:16 as far as I'm concerned, the seven of us were elected
09:32:19 by the city residents.
09:32:21 Okay.
09:32:22 It would be nice to say Kum ba yah, that we want to do
09:32:26 this on a regional basis, and regionalism is a nice
09:32:29 thing, but at the end of the day wave a fiduciary
09:32:33 obligation sitting here for the city rate payers.
09:32:37 That's my little soap box.

09:32:39 I have any questions, Mr. Daignault?
09:32:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you want top speak now?
09:32:46 Okay, Mrs. Saul-Sena.
09:32:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: When we discussed this previously I
09:32:51 was sitting next to Chip Fletcher who was an interim
09:32:56 member and does environmental law, and he says we are
09:32:58 making money from these people and that was the
09:33:00 impetus.
09:33:01 But my concern long-term is protecting the people of
09:33:05 the City of Tampa and making sure the river is
09:33:07 healthy.
09:33:07 And I think with those concerns, we should address
09:33:10 this.
09:33:12 And I would be very supportive of looking at the
09:33:14 long-term financial implications of shrinking our
09:33:18 responsibility.
09:33:22 >>MARY MULHERN: I agree with what John and Linda both
09:33:24 have to say.
09:33:25 But what strikes me, I think what we should do a
09:33:29 long-term study, whatever it will take, hopefully not
09:33:32 too much money, about how we can take these people off
09:33:36 of the infrastructure, the city infrastructure, the

09:33:41 people outside the city limits.
09:33:42 But in the meantime especially when we are going to be
09:33:45 asking our city customers giving us pass-through and
09:33:47 asking them to pay more so we can buy from Tampa Bay
09:33:52 water, why we won't charge more to the citizens -- the
09:33:55 residences and the businesses that are outside of the
09:33:57 city limits.
09:33:59 I mean, that's something we can do in the short-term.
09:34:02 We are providing the water from the City of Tampa to
09:34:04 people who don't live here, and we are having to buy
09:34:07 it from outside, from Tampa Bay water.
09:34:10 There should be a tiered system so the people who are
09:34:13 outside our city limits are paying more, and we can
09:34:16 raise that pass-through, should more -- so more of the
09:34:21 burden can be on the people who don't live in the City
09:34:23 of Tampa.
09:34:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
09:34:27 I'm not a very good politician.
09:34:30 I admit to that.
09:34:33 But I tell you the facts.
09:34:35 Everything that I heard today is true to a point.
09:34:37 When you talk about 220 a thousand gallons, that's a

09:34:41 fact.
09:34:41 However, when you talk about that's the cost
09:34:44 delivered, when you talk about 65 cents a unit, that
09:34:48 is not a fact.
09:34:50 Because the fact is that 65 cents a unit does not
09:34:53 equal a thousand gallons.
09:34:55 It equals 748 gallons.
09:34:57 So when you look at that fact, the fact is it costs
09:35:02 147.
09:35:02 That's what your material costs is, and labor costs
09:35:06 for city water.
09:35:07 I don't know much about water.
09:35:08 When you start looking at the structure of the set-up
09:35:11 and consultants getting in, this thing has been
09:35:14 studied to death by SWFWMD, but Tampa Bay water.
09:35:18 They know plans 15, 20, 30 years out.
09:35:21 Let me say this.
09:35:22 When you talk about only the drastic costs and the
09:35:26 cost of loss -- and we do have a loss to end the
09:35:30 drought season -- during the drought season -- I
09:35:33 understand and agree with everything that's been said.
09:35:35 What they don't tell you, what about the other eight

09:35:37 months that they make money?
09:35:40 If it costs 65 cents a unit and you are selling it for
09:35:42 1.25, and that's 1.25, let me also say if I remember
09:35:49 the agreement for 1978, it goes to 1.50.
09:35:53 I might be mistaken.
09:35:54 I'm going by memory.
09:35:55 What I'm saying, it might be 25 points to do.
09:36:01 I'm not sure about that.
09:36:02 But the facts are that during the drought, everybody
09:36:06 has got to pay more, including those outside the
09:36:09 service area.
09:36:11 The fact is that a unit is not a thousand gallons.
09:36:14 It's 748 gallons.
09:36:16 Again I am going by memory.
09:36:17 I don't have nothing written in front of me.
09:36:19 So what the cost is -- and the cost of buying is two
09:36:23 different things.
09:36:23 When you talk about what you are purchasing it for and
09:36:26 what it costs, it's true.
09:36:29 It's supposed to be what you're purchasing it for and
09:36:31 what your cost is including the purchase price to
09:36:34 resell the water has not been brought up.

09:36:37 And if you go 220 to 265, that's a true cost, and you
09:36:41 have to assume it is, then the cost is not 65 cents.
09:36:44 It's 1.47 a thousand gallons.
09:36:47 We are losing by 80 cents a thousand gallons.
09:36:52 That is correct.
09:36:52 The fact is those agreements were signed into
09:36:55 long-term for the productibility and livability and
09:36:59 the business coming in that the City of Tampa also
09:37:02 gets a benefit from, not only from the sale of water
09:37:07 during the months that they make a profit on.
09:37:09 You do have a loss when there's a doubt.
09:37:10 And you do have droughts about every time for these
09:37:13 months of April, May, and June.
09:37:15 Sometimes it goes March.
09:37:17 So what I'm saying is, you are going to make money in
09:37:20 the other eight months.
09:37:22 You don't hear dealerships closing because they lose
09:37:24 money during slow periods.
09:37:26 They make money year round.
09:37:28 A restaurant, if you have a restaurant business or
09:37:29 whatever business, every business has slow months.
09:37:32 I don't care where you are at.

09:37:34 Especially during the summer.
09:37:36 You will make it up in a 12-calendar month.
09:37:40 You look at the program, what it brings in.
09:37:41 That has never been discussed.
09:37:43 So if we are going to start asking, let's find out
09:37:46 what the cost is for the total year of the revenues
09:37:50 that are created outside the City of Tampa's
09:37:54 municipality.
09:37:55 Then you know the true cost of where you are at.
09:37:58 Whether you are making, losing or breaking everyone.
09:38:01 So let's not attack the good citizens that we have in
09:38:04 Hillsborough County, that a lot of them do their
09:38:06 services in the City of Tampa, because the fact is, we
09:38:10 don't know exactly what we are talking about, all of
09:38:13 us.
09:38:13 For me I'm speaking about, because I don't know in the
09:38:18 12 month calendar if we are breaking everyone or
09:38:20 making a couple of pennies, I don't know that answer.
09:38:24 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I may be improper in saying this.
09:38:27 It's a Florida statute that we have a right to charge
09:38:30 people who don't live in our service area 25% more for
09:38:32 their water.

09:38:33 Is that correct?
09:38:36 >>> I think we can go up to 50% more.
09:38:38 We are currently charging 25% over for the water and
09:38:43 17% more for the wastewater.
09:38:46 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: How can we accomplish this 65
09:38:48 cents compared to $2.20?
09:38:52 Because Charlie said it's only 748 gallons?
09:38:55 Is that what you are saying?
09:38:58 >>> There's a different pricing mechanism which the
09:39:00 this city uses which is unique compared to the
09:39:02 industry.
09:39:03 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Doing some conversions for you,
09:39:08 since our 65 cents is per 100 cubic feet, that would
09:39:13 compare to about $1.65 for Tampa Bay water for 100
09:39:18 cubic feet.
09:39:21 So that would be the accurate conversion in
09:39:22 comparison.
09:39:23 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: What bothers me where I live, we
09:39:26 don't have reclaimed water, okay?
09:39:28 And this water that we are selling to Pasco County,
09:39:32 how is that water getting there?
09:39:34 >>> We are not selling any water to Pasco County at

09:39:36 this moment.
09:39:38 >> It says regarding whether Hillsborough County is
09:39:40 still interested in purchasing reclaimed water from
09:39:42 the city.
09:39:43 >>> That's a different question, sir, I'm sorry.
09:39:45 That's another question added on to this service area.
09:39:49 We currently do not provide any potable or reclaimed
09:39:52 outside of the county.
09:39:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chair, members of the board, I
09:40:01 think that we need to be very careful when we start
09:40:03 talking about city and county residents.
09:40:05 I'm just telling you.
09:40:06 And I agree 100% with councilman Miranda on that
09:40:10 issue.
09:40:11 And everybody doing business slows down in slow months
09:40:16 including churches, slow months, slow times.
09:40:20 The offering drops.
09:40:24 Keep in mind, also, that interlocal agreement that now
09:40:27 I think -- we charge 25% more.
09:40:32 The reason is when I was chairman, when mayor Dick
09:40:35 Greco was there, and the current mayor, we met several
09:40:38 times to talk about the problem we were having in Palm

09:40:41 River.
09:40:42 You remember that, Mr. Daignault?
09:40:45 In those areas.
09:40:46 And the city did not have the money to invest in
09:40:49 upgrading the system.
09:40:51 I got the county to put up, what, $6.5 million to
09:40:55 upgrade the city system so that the county residents
09:41:00 could have better water and a better supply.
09:41:03 So you want to walk very carefully on this issue.
09:41:10 Even what the county has done.
09:41:13 You know, the county did, what the city did.
09:41:19 These are people, bottom line, these are citizens of
09:41:23 Hillsborough County.
09:41:23 And you want to be careful, okay?
09:41:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Everybody brought up some good
09:41:34 points, and Charlie, you brought up the best points.
09:41:36 The best point is we don't know.
09:41:38 You threw around some numbers, and there are numbers
09:41:40 that I wasn't necessarily familiar with.
09:41:43 But the bottom line is -- and I'll ask you, Steve
09:41:46 Daignault, have we done a comprehensive financial
09:41:49 analysis of the financial impact, positive or

09:41:54 negative, of keeping these non-city customers on our
09:41:57 system for the next 12 or more years?
09:42:00 And I think the answer is no, we have never done --
09:42:04 and I'll ask you that question -- we have never done
09:42:06 any kind of comprehensive financial analysis, looking
09:42:09 at these issues that Charlie is talking about, the
09:42:11 25%, you know, extra that when do charge the non-city
09:42:17 residents, does that make up for this difference of,
09:42:20 you know, whatever the difference is, 60 cents or
09:42:23 more, you know, per thousand gallons?
09:42:28 And that's just today's costs.
09:42:29 It's my understanding that 220 price could actually
09:42:33 keep escalating over the next 12 or 20 years,
09:42:36 depending on what happens to TPW.
09:42:38 That's not a fixed thing, is it?
09:42:44 The first question is, have we ever done a
09:42:47 comprehensive, serious analysis on this particular
09:42:49 issue divesting ourselves of these non-city residents?
09:42:58 >>> What I need to tell you is that we look at our
09:43:00 cost every year, and we include --
09:43:06 >> The lawyer in me, if you could answer my question,
09:43:08 go on to your statement afterwards.

09:43:12 Mr. Caetano mentioned it a moment ago.
09:43:14 Have we studied it, of divesting ourselves not today,
09:43:19 not tomorrow, 12 years from now possibly, of these
09:43:21 non-city residents? And I would say the answer is no.
09:43:25 Would you agree with me?
09:43:27 >>> To my knowledge, that sort of study has never been
09:43:30 done.
09:43:31 >> Thank you.
09:43:31 >>> And there are lots of reasons why it's never been
09:43:33 done.
09:43:37 >> Okay.
09:43:38 >>> Can he elaborate?
09:43:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes, you may.
09:43:40 >>> Thank you.
09:43:43 First of all, let me make it really clear that the
09:43:46 administration is not interested in moving in this
09:43:50 direction.
09:43:51 >> I understand that.
09:43:52 >>> This is very serious business.
09:43:55 We are in a region that includes, or areas governed by
09:44:02 Southwest Florida Water Management District, and they
09:44:04 look out for the water needs of everyone.

09:44:09 We have joined Tampa Bay water.
09:44:11 We are a member of Tampa Bay water.
09:44:15 As a result of that, it is a little myopic to just
09:44:19 look inside the City of Tampa.
09:44:21 We really need to know that we are regional partners,
09:44:24 and we are asking a question about Pasco and
09:44:27 Hillsborough wanting reclaimed water.
09:44:28 We are regional partners.
09:44:29 We are all out here together.
09:44:31 And we need to keep that in mind as we move forward.
09:44:36 I've sent you all a memo, because there are some new
09:44:39 council members from when that memo was originally
09:44:42 submitted.
09:44:45 But there have been hundreds of millions of dollars
09:44:49 spent in infrastructure, by the city, by the county,
09:44:53 to put in this infrastructure, to orient it in a
09:44:57 certain way, to size treatment plants.
09:45:02 Bonds have been issued to pay for these things, rates
09:45:06 and fees are all determined based on those bonds, and
09:45:10 our water permit is all subject to what we do and who
09:45:15 we serve.
09:45:16 Our water treatments -- excuse me, our water use

09:45:20 permit will be affected if we were to reduce our
09:45:24 service area.
09:45:27 It is not all of ours forever more.
09:45:32 In the City of Tampa -- excuse me, in the State of
09:45:34 Florida, water is owned by the state, and the state
09:45:38 regulates your use of that water.
09:45:41 We have to go to southwest Florida water management
09:45:44 and have a water use permit approved for us.
09:45:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The other question I asked earlier,
09:45:51 Steve, is how many additional customers do we
09:45:53 anticipate, just within the city limits, okay, over
09:45:56 the next 10, 15, 20 years?
09:45:59 We have projections of I believe more than 100,000
09:46:03 additional customers, just within the city limits,
09:46:06 nonetheless the additional service, which means we are
09:46:08 going to have to keep buying that PBW water at
09:46:15 significant cost, Charlie, significant extra cost.
09:46:20 I don't think -- 60 cents times whatever becomes a
09:46:23 lot.
09:46:25 Additional customers.
09:46:26 >>> I can't answer that question.
09:46:29 Maybe Brad can.

09:46:33 >>BRAD BAIRD: Water department director.
09:46:38 We have been growing at about one to 1.5 percent per
09:46:43 year in terms of number of connections.
09:46:44 So we serve approximately 600, 650,000 people.
09:46:53 So if you do that now, that's about 6,000 additional
09:46:58 people a you're for ten years.
09:47:00 Obviously that would be about 60,000 people.
09:47:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And if you got 20 years -- 20
09:47:11 years, an additional 120,000 customers.
09:47:16 So we are looking at an additional 20 years, is it
09:47:21 about 120,000 if we just stay at that rate?
09:47:24 >>> Yes.
09:47:24 >> And I have seen higher rates from the Planning
09:47:26 Commission in terms of what they expect our growth to
09:47:28 be.
09:47:30 So my big concern is this: If we swap out those new
09:47:36 customers who are going to be in the city, and for the
09:47:41 non-city customers that I am suggesting we might
09:47:43 divest long-term, we end up with the same customer
09:47:47 base that we have today, okay.
09:47:50 And as far as SWFWMD is concerned, you know, I think
09:47:54 those arguments are a long way off in terms of the

09:47:56 permits, bonds expire.
09:48:00 You don't know, I don't know how long those bonds are
09:48:02 going to be lasting.
09:48:03 But they expire.
09:48:05 And Bonnie -- they can be dealt with, too.
09:48:12 My point is, why are we afraid not to study this?
09:48:15 Why can't we study this?
09:48:16 We study everything else.
09:48:22 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Again, there is infrastructure.
09:48:24 There is a lot of finances.
09:48:26 And there are our water use permits.
09:48:29 And there are agreements that the city has signed up
09:48:32 to.
09:48:32 We have signed up to the Tampa Bay Water agreement.
09:48:37 In that agreement, it says, you can have a permit up
09:48:40 to 82 million gallons per day and no more.
09:48:44 It says that in our water use permit with Southwest
09:48:46 Florida Water Management.
09:48:47 It says that in our agreement with Tampa Bay Water.
09:48:51 Beyond the 82 MGB in the agreement with Tampa Bay
09:48:54 Water, it is their responsibility to plan for our
09:48:58 growth and provide for that extra water.

09:49:00 There is no new water. The water has to come from
09:49:03 somewhere.
09:49:04 It comes from the desal plant or comes from the
09:49:07 surface or comes from the groundwater well.
09:49:10 Again, there is no new water.
09:49:11 There's not a secret reservoir of water sitting
09:49:15 somewhere waiting to be tapped.
09:49:18 Tampa Bay water, speaking of reservoirs, has built one
09:49:21 new reservoir and is considering building another.
09:49:26 I showed all of you -- and the book that I have put
09:49:28 together on these issues, they have a plan for meeting
09:49:32 our growth needs in the future.
09:49:34 It is their responsibility.
09:49:36 That's the agreement the city signed up to.
09:49:39 That agreement has been -- 1998, okay.
09:49:44 So that agreement has been in existence for some time.
09:49:47 It's what we signed up to.
09:49:48 It's what plans have been made upon.
09:49:51 It's what again bonds have been issued on.
09:49:53 It is what we plan on, it's what Hillsborough plans
09:49:56 on, it's what Tampa Bay water and SWFWMD plan on.
09:50:00 Again that's why we are where we are.

09:50:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The City of Tampa has done some
09:50:05 things in the last few years, eight, ten years, to try
09:50:09 to facilitate its growth, ASR, storage and recovery.
09:50:13 We have over a billion gallons on the ground.
09:50:15 I'm sure it's being used if not already being used.
09:50:18 The problem with the City of Tampa is the reservoir
09:50:22 only hold about 1.2 billion gallons for 16 days of
09:50:25 water.
09:50:26 There was in a water.
09:50:27 That problem is complicated by two things.
09:50:29 When don't have a liner, and evaporation, so we lose
09:50:34 it from the sun and we lose it from the soil because
09:50:36 we don't have -- Tampa Bay water on the other hand and
09:50:39 their 16 billion-gallon reservoir has a liner.
09:50:43 They only lose through evaporation. The rates we are
09:50:45 talking about today comparing 220, and going up -- and
09:50:49 it will go up in the future -- but also the rates from
09:50:52 the City of Tampa -- and I told you earlier I was not
09:50:55 a very good politician because I'll tell you the
09:50:57 facts.
09:50:57 It's up to you to digest them the way you want -- will
09:51:00 also increase.

09:51:01 Not because I want them to.
09:51:02 Because that's the nature of the beast that we have.
09:51:04 I cannot put a fence between Florida and Georgia and
09:51:08 stop everybody coming in from Missouri, from Michigan,
09:51:11 from Ohio, from Kentucky, to come to the State of
09:51:13 Florida.
09:51:14 I just can't do that.
09:51:15 The federal government can't even build another fence.
09:51:18 So how can I stop people from moving into America?
09:51:20 That's number one.
09:51:22 Number two.
09:51:23 Reclaimed.
09:51:24 We must do something in reclaimed to offset the
09:51:28 pressure of potable water.
09:51:30 So I know there's a plan in place.
09:51:32 I have talked it over with Mr. Daignault.
09:51:35 I realize these things take time.
09:51:37 But more than take time, they take an enormous amount
09:51:39 of resource, called C-A-S-H, cash.
09:51:47 A lot of money.
09:51:48 That's being worked on.
09:51:49 Today was a very nice article in the Tampa Tribune

09:51:51 about leakage in the City of Tampa.
09:51:53 If you convert that and we go and aggressively attack
09:51:56 those things on the ground that we don't see, that
09:52:00 solves another little minute problem with the city.
09:52:04 Out of the box, I don't know if legally we can do what
09:52:08 I am going to say.
09:52:09 And I talked to the administration about this, or some
09:52:11 members of the administration.
09:52:13 Back and forth.
09:52:14 I don't know if the City of Tampa can build a desal
09:52:17 plant.
09:52:18 I don't know that legally.
09:52:19 I also don't know if the City of Tampa can build a big
09:52:23 reservoir.
09:52:24 Why do I say these things?
09:52:25 Two things.
09:52:26 First of all, salt water is convertible to potable
09:52:29 water.
09:52:29 Second of all, a reservoir can be built by the City of
09:52:34 Tampa during the rainy season.
09:52:36 The other side of the ledger.
09:52:38 You always have credits and you always have debits no

09:52:40 matter what business you are in, whether it's running
09:52:43 this city or not.
09:52:44 On the side of keeping a reservoir full, during the
09:52:48 rainy season, at some time you put a billion, not a
09:52:53 million, but a billion or more gallons of water over
09:52:58 the dam.
09:52:58 If that can be stored possibly in the 400 or 500 acres
09:53:01 that we own in Thonotosassa, and again that's out of
09:53:04 the box, and I don't know if that's possible, because
09:53:08 we sign agreements, and we have to honor those
09:53:11 agreements.
09:53:12 Things change in life.
09:53:13 I feel like Reverend Scott.
09:53:16 Those good citizens that I may not represent -- and I
09:53:21 do not represent -- have an obligation to honor the
09:53:26 contract that was signed by the legislature in 1978.
09:53:30 They have been paying their fair share.
09:53:32 It is changing.
09:53:33 And their rates will go up accordingly with
09:53:38 pass-through so the city will not get stuck.
09:53:39 The problem is, we didn't have all these pass-throughs
09:53:42 already in law form so they could be paying the

09:53:46 rightful amount.
09:53:47 They understand that and hopefully we understand that.
09:53:49 It's not their fault that they are not paying, it's
09:53:52 our fault for not thinking months and years in
09:53:54 advance.
09:53:55 So I blame it on us, not them.
09:53:58 Thank you very much.
09:54:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern.
09:54:02 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to be as charitable as
09:54:05 you and look at it as such a big picture.
09:54:08 But we were elected by people who live in the City of
09:54:10 Tampa.
09:54:11 And I think it's our responsibility to see how we can
09:54:14 be fair to them.
09:54:15 So I would like to know if it's possible for us to
09:54:19 raise those rates, as Mr. Caetano pointed out, that
09:54:25 Mr. Daignault said, raise the rates of people outside
09:54:28 the city by 50%.
09:54:30 So I would just like to hear if that's a possibility.
09:54:32 And I would also like to support what Mr. Dingfelder
09:54:35 is asking for, just for us to look at in the long-term
09:54:40 whether we could have the -- give the customers back

09:54:46 to the county.
09:54:47 It's close to half the customers that we have.
09:54:49 And I did read your memo.
09:54:50 And I do understand that we have a huge amount of
09:54:54 infrastructure.
09:54:55 But the city is committed to that and the county has
09:54:58 their customers.
09:54:59 And I know it's a huge problem.
09:55:00 And maybe it is too costly.
09:55:03 And maybe it will be impossible to do.
09:55:04 But if we could at least hear a little more about that
09:55:08 from you, about what it would take.
09:55:12 A long-term scenario, after this contract goes up, in
09:55:18 what did we say, 2012?
09:55:20 So I would like to just second that request from him
09:55:24 that we could hear about that.
09:55:25 And also I would like to know if legally we could
09:55:30 raise the rates of the residents that we are supplying
09:55:33 water to on the pass-through basis, for the water that
09:55:38 we are buying from Tampa Bay water.
09:55:44 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: I'm not sure I'm clear on all your
09:55:47 questions.

09:55:48 >> Just two.
09:55:48 >>> Okay.
09:55:49 It is legal to increase or to charge up to 50% more
09:55:55 for the folks who are not within the city limits.
09:56:00 When we talk about the pass-through, we will be
09:56:02 talking about the pass-through for all customers.
09:56:07 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
09:56:10 But are you saying that you can't have a different
09:56:13 rate that you're charging for that pass-through?
09:56:16 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: It will have up to 50% more.
09:56:20 >> So we can do that?
09:56:22 >>> Yes.
09:56:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A legal opinion.
09:56:27 >>> Under the interlocal agreement they have set a
09:56:31 formula which we charge the county on an annual basis.
09:56:34 And the components that are within that formula.
09:56:38 I wouldn't want us to say here that we could charge
09:56:44 those customers under the interlocal agreement up to
09:56:47 50% more, because it's a -- the formula is I had fade
09:56:51 as to what we can include.
09:56:54 Those that we direct bill -- and I'm not sure what
09:56:58 terminology that we use -- but those that we direct

09:57:00 bill into the county, we can increase their rates up
09:57:07 to -- there's a 25% surcharge but no more than 50% of
09:57:10 the difference of the inside and the outside.
09:57:12 That's what the statute says.
09:57:14 So there is what I call the bulk customers under the
09:57:18 interlocal.
09:57:19 We would have to look at whether you could -- and how
09:57:22 much you could pass through to them.
09:57:24 Just wanted to clarify that.
09:57:25 >>MARY MULHERN: My other question was just about what
09:57:28 the feasibility is of looking at taking those
09:57:33 customers off City of Tampa water, giving it back to
09:57:37 the county.
09:57:39 If we could see a feasibility and a cost analysis to
09:57:42 do that on a long-term and maybe Mr. Dingfelder, you
09:57:45 can say what date would you like to see that.
09:57:54 >>> Council, if I can say, that is an enormous effort.
09:57:56 We are in the throes of tremendous issues on water at
09:57:58 this moment.
09:57:59 We are in the throes of dealing with the budget.
09:58:01 We are in the throes of dealing with what's going on
09:58:03 in Tallahassee.

09:58:06 Again, the administration is not interested in going
09:58:09 down this path.
09:58:12 So I'm just not sure how much effort you would like to
09:58:18 us try to expend in that effort.
09:58:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would just caution us, this board
09:58:27 and this council, from going down that path.
09:58:29 I'm telling you, on one hand you are talking about --
09:58:33 first off, you are making money off of the customers
09:58:36 in the county.
09:58:36 You are not losing money, you are making money, okay?
09:58:39 That's number one.
09:58:40 Number two is, there is a lot of investment put in
09:58:43 place into the city's infrastructure that the city
09:58:47 didn't have money for.
09:58:48 The county put that money in there, okay?
09:58:51 And then, thirdly, while you are talking about water,
09:58:55 think about transportation.
09:58:57 I was on the transportation force.
09:58:59 We met on Monday.
09:59:00 They have included and sent on to the board of county
09:59:03 commission money to pay for 40th Street, for the
09:59:07 bridge, for the east-west connector, and $40 million

09:59:11 for Hartline.
09:59:13 So you are talking about a whole lot of implications
09:59:16 that may come from this.
09:59:17 So I'm saying that you need to be careful.
09:59:21 You want to walk lightly.
09:59:22 You don't want to get into one of these, you know, who
09:59:26 is the biggest and who is the baddest contest.
09:59:28 You don't want that.
09:59:29 Okay?
09:59:30 And all this issue about, I'm elected by the city.
09:59:36 At the end of the day the average citizen don't even
09:59:38 care about that.
09:59:39 What they care about is services.
09:59:40 And their needs being met at the end of the day.
09:59:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Council, we have been on this for a
09:59:47 long time.
09:59:47 Everybody spoke twice on the issue.
09:59:49 Now we need to come to some conclusion what you need
09:59:51 to do.
09:59:52 Do you want to make a motion?
09:59:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll suggest a motion.
09:59:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.

09:59:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And Reverend Scott, I agree with
10:00:01 you 100%, we have to be very cautious on this issue.
10:00:05 I recognize there's a lot of political and other
10:00:08 ramifications.
10:00:09 This is not about us being under the county or how the
10:00:14 county is going to respond or anything like that.
10:00:16 This is about 12 years down the road.
10:00:18 Because our legal council said legally we are down for
10:00:20 this 12 years, okay?
10:00:22 So this is not anything overnight.
10:00:24 Okay.
10:00:24 This is a long-term consideration.
10:00:27 If we were going to study it, we would study the
10:00:30 long-term impacts from 12 years out, okay?
10:00:34 12 years, 20 years, 30 years.
10:00:36 That's the type of financial analysis that would have
10:00:38 to be done.
10:00:38 But I will say this one thing.
10:00:40 If we didn't have those 3, 000,000 additional non-city
10:00:44 customers today, then the City of Tampa would not have
10:00:46 a water crisis, period.
10:00:49 We wouldn't have a water crisis today, because we

10:00:51 would have that 82 million permit or something close
10:00:55 to it, we would have a lot of water behind the dam to
10:00:58 be fulfilling our needs, they might change the permit.
10:01:02 I recognize they might not modify the permit.
10:01:04 But the bottom line is that water has always, always,
10:01:07 always been controlled by the City of Tampa, subject
10:01:10 to SWFWMD.
10:01:11 And I know, Jan, you have told me that the permit
10:01:15 might be modified.
10:01:16 So that's what you are going to say.
10:01:18 I agree with that.
10:01:19 It might be modified but we don't know.
10:01:21 Bottom line is -- my motion -- my motion is this.
10:01:26 I don't want to burden the city, okay, and is the
10:01:31 administration, with this issue today.
10:01:34 Okay?
10:01:34 I don't want to burden the city and the administration
10:01:37 with this issue today.
10:01:39 But I do think it's something that we need to continue
10:01:41 to explore.
10:01:42 And also, Ms. Saul-Sena brings up a good environmental
10:01:46 reason as well.

10:01:48 Ms. Mulhern mentioned that, also.
10:01:50 There are many reasons that I think we should look at
10:01:52 this, okay?
10:01:54 But Mr. Daignault, you are 100% right, you have a lot
10:01:57 on your plate.
10:01:58 >>GWEN MILLER: You haven't made a motion.
10:01:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's coming.
10:02:01 Thank you.
10:02:01 >>GWEN MILLER: If you make the motion then we can move
10:02:03 on.
10:02:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My motion is that -- I don't want
10:02:07 to come into the drought period.
10:02:10 My motion is that six months from now we put this back
10:02:13 on the calendar to discuss --
10:02:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second --
10:02:19 >>> To discuss the possibility of doing a long-term
10:02:22 feasibility analysis of this issue.
10:02:24 Six months, we'll come back, we'll have a similar
10:02:26 discussion, maybe administration will have different
10:02:28 information for us, maybe other people will have
10:02:30 information for us.
10:02:31 The city customers deserve this to be discussed.

10:02:35 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:02:37 Question on the motion, Mr. Miranda?
10:02:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me talk about the city
10:02:41 customers.
10:02:42 City customers have got and enjoyed the lowest water
10:02:46 rate, not in Hillsborough County, maybe in the State
10:02:50 of Florida.
10:02:51 >> And that's wonderful.
10:02:53 >>> Please don't interrupt me.
10:02:54 You should copy quiet when everybody else is speaking.
10:02:58 John.
10:02:59 I love ya.
10:03:01 [ Laughter ]
10:03:01 But let me say this.
10:03:03 What I'm saying is, that's going to change.
10:03:08 Not because Charlie Miranda wants it to change.
10:03:10 Not because this City Council wants it to change.
10:03:12 Because that's what's coming.
10:03:13 We cannot build a fence around Florida.
10:03:16 It doesn't work.
10:03:19 We have enjoyed this.
10:03:20 We have had this.

10:03:22 The city customers have made a concerted effort along
10:03:25 with the works of the public works and the City of
10:03:28 Tampa water department to reduce the consumption daily
10:03:32 use average.
10:03:34 At one time there was 132 gallons purchased per day in
10:03:37 the City of Tampa.
10:03:38 It's now 114, if my mind serves me right.
10:03:42 So what I am saying is, we have done our part.
10:03:45 And the citizens of this great city will continue to
10:03:47 do their part.
10:03:50 I don't know if I am going to support this motion or
10:03:52 not.
10:03:52 I have to do a little research because I think all
10:03:54 those questions have already been answered, SWFWMD
10:04:02 projections, City of Tampa projections, so they know
10:04:07 where we are going.
10:04:08 The question then becomes, what are going to be the
10:04:10 rates?
10:04:10 And you know what?
10:04:11 My nose tells me that in the next three or four months
10:04:16 you are going to find out what the rates are going to
10:04:17 be, not only for next year, but for the next five to

10:04:20 seven years, because the pressure of the system -- and
10:04:24 it's not the people outside, it's not the people
10:04:26 inside, it's a combination of all of us that are using
10:04:29 this water along with the administration's coming
10:04:33 forward and making some adjustments on reclaimed.
10:04:38 Why is reclaimed not being used properly?
10:04:40 Because the rates between reclaimed and potable water
10:04:43 are almost the same.
10:04:44 So there's no benefit to use it.
10:04:46 So what we are trying to do now, the water rates
10:04:49 increase a little bit, reclaimed becomes more viable.
10:04:53 More usable.
10:04:54 What happens then?
10:04:54 You have a lesser amount of water being used that's
10:04:58 drinkable, potable water, whatever you want to call
10:05:01 it.
10:05:02 What I'm saying is give the system, give the
10:05:04 administration a chance to work on this and continue.
10:05:08 They haven't been asleep for the last eight years.
10:05:10 Why is it we are Tampa Bay water?
10:05:14 Only history will say we are right or wrong joining
10:05:17 Tampa Bay water in 1998.

10:05:20 That's one side. Let's say you were not in Tampa Bay
10:05:22 water.
10:05:23 And you still had this water problem.
10:05:26 What do you think the other governing bodies are going
10:05:28 to do to us?
10:05:29 Do you think they are going to be kind to us? Do you
10:05:31 think they are going to give us a helping hand?
10:05:33 Do you think SWFWMD will look at us with an eye and
10:05:35 say, oh, nice people in Tampa, that Charlie boy, that
10:05:41 bald headed guy, I like him a lot.
10:05:42 They won't do that.
10:05:43 We are part of the system that works.
10:05:46 And Tampa Bay water, SWFWMD is not unique.
10:05:51 It's part of south west management region.
10:05:55 There's some in the central, some in the central, some
10:05:58 in the north.
10:05:58 As Mr. Dingfelder said this is state water, it doesn't
10:06:01 belong to me, it belongs to the state.
10:06:03 And the state has an obligation to meet the
10:06:07 distribution and the cost factor to make sure that we
10:06:09 are doing it right.
10:06:10 Why is it that we are the lowest?

10:06:12 Because we are also the best.
10:06:15 You see, groundwater is very different than surface
10:06:18 water.
10:06:19 And they have learned that.
10:06:20 Now, they have learned that through the years, and
10:06:23 they are possibly throwing out a product from surface
10:06:26 water, just as God as we are.
10:06:28 So what I mentioned earlier, I don't know legally what
10:06:32 we can do to create new water sources.
10:06:34 You know, it's the same water that's been revolving
10:06:39 around and falling on this earth for a million years.
10:06:41 The problem with water is that 25 years ago you had 4
10:06:45 million people in Florida.
10:06:46 Now you have 16 or 17 million.
10:06:48 That's the problem.
10:06:50 It's not the water.
10:06:51 It's us.
10:06:53 We keep coming in.
10:06:54 We keep producing.
10:06:55 Keep having bigger families.
10:06:57 That's the water.
10:06:58 That's the problem that we have.

10:07:00 And I have enjoyed all of that.
10:07:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Now, we have a motion and second on the
10:07:04 floor.
10:07:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion, and to clarify, is very
10:07:07 simply to defer this discussion for six months,
10:07:10 because administration says they can't deal with it
10:07:12 right now, and I appreciate that.
10:07:14 And there's no urgency because this is 12 more years
10:07:16 down the road.
10:07:17 So if we defer for six months, we'll all come back
10:07:20 better informed, and we can continue to have a
10:07:22 discussion on this issue.
10:07:24 And I think it's an extremely important issue.
10:07:26 And at the end of the day we have one group of people
10:07:29 to answer to and that is the city residents, and
10:07:32 that's what I'm talking about.
10:07:33 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:07:34 All in favor say Aye.
10:07:36 Opposed, Nay.
10:07:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm not supporting the motion
10:07:42 either because the motion also said as citizens that
10:07:45 we got elected to do. I have never done anything to

10:07:48 anybody in the City of Tampa against them.
10:07:50 And I'll continue to do that.
10:07:52 But I don't like casting a net, don't make the minnow
10:07:58 look like a shark because he's not.
10:08:01 >>THE CLERK: The motion carried with Scott and Miranda
10:08:03 voting no.
10:08:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, staff.
10:08:09 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to item number 5.
10:08:12 Mr. Shelby.
10:08:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: To bring you up to date, availability
10:08:22 for the children's board, and I want to take the
10:08:25 opportunity to knowledge members of the city staff who
10:08:28 have been very helpful in assisting me in the process
10:08:31 of setting this up.
10:08:35 Cathy Shan and Deidre Anthony of the recreation
10:08:40 department, and especially the purchasing department
10:08:43 and the process I am going through now as facilitator.
10:08:46 I would like to thank Greg Spearman, Linda and Diane
10:08:49 Johnson.
10:08:50 Council, very briefly, you have a date.
10:08:52 You have a time.
10:08:53 And you have a place.

10:08:54 So it is June 18 from 9:00 to 4:00.
10:08:58 That's a Monday.
10:08:59 And it will be at the children's board.
10:09:02 And I'm in the process of obtaining the facilitator.
10:09:05 I'm very sensitive to the cost issue.
10:09:07 And I have been working with the chair to address that
10:09:10 issue.
10:09:10 I would like to take this off the agenda to save time
10:09:14 and just keep you apprised personally, and by e-mail
10:09:18 and by memo.
10:09:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:09:26 >>> May I speak to this item number 5?
10:09:28 >>GWEN MILLER: in a few minutes under public comment.
10:09:31 We'll be there shortly.
10:09:33 Number 6.
10:09:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If I may.
10:09:37 Just to satisfy my own time and the way I think, if it
10:09:41 costs one penny to have a facilitator come in and tell
10:09:44 us what we are doing wrong, I'm not going to
10:09:50 participate, because the people that elected me wanted
10:09:55 me to give a dollar value for every dollar spent.
10:09:58 And if I am going out there with seven council members

10:10:00 and coming back with the same seven, I haven't
10:10:07 bettered myself, and therefore I am not going to go to
10:10:09 spend public money on a retreat.
10:10:12 Now if you want to have a retreat without a
10:10:14 facilitator, I will be the first one.
10:10:16 If you want me to sweep the floors I'll do that, too.
10:10:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena.
10:10:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I am not going to a convention this
10:10:24 year, and so I volunteered, if there is a cost
10:10:28 associated with the facilitator, to take it out of my
10:10:31 budget as a council member.
10:10:32 I just want to make other folks aware of that.
10:10:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I was going to encourage all the board
10:10:42 members to attend.
10:10:43 One of the things I found, and I have done these for
10:10:45 ten years, it's very helpful to get together and talk
10:10:48 among yourselves and talk about issues, talk about how
10:10:51 you want to move forward, to set goals for this
10:10:54 council.
10:10:57 I don't think that any large corporation, anybody
10:11:00 doesn't have genre treats, genre treats for their top
10:11:05 staff people to talk about goals and direction and

10:11:09 that sort of thing.
10:11:10 I just want to encourage Charlie to attend.
10:11:14 >>MARY MULHERN: I think comments on this show that we
10:11:17 really need a facilitator.
10:11:19 [ Laughter ]
10:11:20 It just occurred to me, perhaps we have someone in our
10:11:24 human resources department in the city who could act
10:11:27 as facilitator.
10:11:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I can share the discussion that's
10:11:31 been taking place on that.
10:11:32 One of the things that's been made clear in order for
10:11:38 us to facilitate and be effective is that person be
10:11:41 neutral, be truly not beholding and not perceived to
10:11:44 be partial to anybody.
10:11:45 And frankly the administration, while they have
10:11:48 offered to do that has also recognized that that would
10:11:51 be perhaps an inherent conflict, so they have declined
10:11:54 from being able to do that.
10:11:55 That does not preclude me from as I am doing this --
10:11:59 and please understand that we are under a time crunch
10:12:01 being June 18th so we have to move rather
10:12:04 quickly -- but it is my intention to do this if there

10:12:06 is somebody willing to recognize, who is qualified to
10:12:09 be able to provide the value and recognize the public
10:12:12 benefit by serving as a facilitator, to no cost to the
10:12:17 city as a volunteer.
10:12:18 That would be most gracious for them to do that.
10:12:21 And I certainly would not turn them down if they were
10:12:24 to offer that.
10:12:24 And that is obviously my first choice is to not incur
10:12:30 a cost to the taxpayers.
10:12:32 My second choice is to minimize the cost to the
10:12:35 maximum extent possible.
10:12:38 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Shelby, why don't you contact
10:12:40 the University of South Florida?
10:12:42 Maybe they could get somebody from there.
10:12:45 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I did.
10:12:46 Thank you.
10:12:46 Because I'm sorry to interrupt, but that was one of my
10:12:49 first contacts at the suggestion of the City Council.
10:12:55 I was in touch with Judy Genshaft.
10:12:57 'S office.
10:12:58 They did refer me to a professor who is highly
10:13:00 regarded, whose rate is normally, for nonprofits and

10:13:03 government, $3500.
10:13:09 I had the opportunity to speak to him yesterday.
10:13:11 He's been very gracious to put me in touch with some
10:13:14 people who would be able to do it for substantially
10:13:16 less, and possibly, I don't know if that's possible,
10:13:19 no cost at all.
10:13:20 But recognizing the fact that this City Council, in
10:13:25 the climate that it is, recognizes that $3500 is too
10:13:29 much to spend for this event, that he is going to be
10:13:31 working with me, and I just met with Linda Johnson
10:13:36 this morning from the city's purchasing department.
10:13:38 She's providing me a wealth of material to be able to
10:13:41 assist me.
10:13:41 So I understand council's direction.
10:13:44 I will work very hard to fulfill the direction that
10:13:46 you are giving me.
10:13:48 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Because I definitely want to see
10:13:50 Charlie Miranda here.
10:13:50 I don't want to see him staying home.
10:13:53 So maybe we can get some of our attorneys that come
10:13:55 before us that will Chip in and pay for it.
10:13:59 [ Laughter ]

10:13:59 Blah.
10:14:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions?
10:14:13 We go to item number 6.
10:14:15 Need to receive and file the memo.
10:14:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:14:18 >> Second.
10:14:18 (Motion carried).
10:14:18 Item number 7, a carryover from last week.
10:14:29 >>DAVID SMITH: City attorney.
10:14:32 A little bit of confusion.
10:14:33 We tried to find the motions from last week, and the
10:14:35 clerk's office was unable to find a motion approving
10:14:38 item number 2 and 4.
10:14:42 Before you, however, is literally a pending motion.
10:14:45 And let me pass out this item, which is the list of 1
10:14:49 through 8, which was the discussion points used last
10:14:52 week for ease of reference.
10:14:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Excuse me, Madam Chairman.
10:14:58 Mr. Smith, I was here last week.
10:15:00 I made the motion.
10:15:02 I was extremely clear.
10:15:03 And I thought what was coming before us today was what

10:15:07 we directed legal to do.
10:15:09 And I'm really surprised, Madam Chairman, in terms of
10:15:12 the agenda, that it's appearing here under unfinished
10:15:15 business rather than under first reading.
10:15:18 And I don't understand this.
10:15:20 >>DAVID SMITH: The motion says that the legal
10:15:24 department be requested to review the items discussed
10:15:28 this date, but keep the existing language in the
10:15:33 current ordinance regarding reasonable beneficial use.
10:15:36 Of course, the motion was tied 3-3.
10:15:42 But the first part of that ordinance that the legal
10:15:44 department be requested to review the items discussed
10:15:46 this date, I don't know what that means.
10:15:49 I thought when you took action on all eight items,
10:15:52 this was the 8th item.
10:15:53 The 8th item was what the standard would be.
10:15:56 And I think your motion was intended to keep the
10:15:59 current standard, which is a taking standard.
10:16:02 And Mr. Dingfelder was not here last week so I'll
10:16:05 repeat, my recommendation was opposed to that, for an
10:16:11 inordinate burden standard.
10:16:14 So you need to dispose of that motion first because

10:16:16 you had a tie vote.
10:16:17 Then I would like to clarify an issue because there's
10:16:19 also a question whether or not the ordinance read was
10:16:22 the correct ordinance.
10:16:23 But you guys need to dispose of your pending motion
10:16:26 first.
10:16:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby?
10:16:31 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, council.
10:16:33 I would agree with the statement that my recollection
10:16:38 is that council disposed of all the items with the
10:16:41 exception of the one item with regard to what burden
10:16:45 you wish to use for the economic hardship.
10:16:49 That is what is before you today.
10:16:51 Mr. Smith, if you want to advise council that you have
10:16:53 a motion prepared -- an ordinance prepared for first
10:16:57 reading, irrespective of regardless of which one they
10:17:00 choose?
10:17:01 >>DAVID SMITH: What I did was we prepared for you what
10:17:03 we were recommending for approval.
10:17:05 So you had a package you received early in the week
10:17:07 that incorporated the seven changes, that I agree with
10:17:11 Mr. Shelby that I thought you approved, and will clean

10:17:14 that up in your motions today.
10:17:16 It has in it the recommendation we made with regard to
10:17:19 the issue number 5, which was the standard.
10:17:22 So the ordinance we provided you had inordinate
10:17:27 burden.
10:17:28 We have an alternative insert page for you that
10:17:32 includes the no reasonable beneficial use standard,
10:17:34 which is that embodied in Ms. Saul-Sena's motion.
10:17:37 So what you have to decide right now is the motion
10:17:40 pending, and if you are in favor of no reasonable
10:17:44 beneficial use standard, that's in essence the
10:17:46 standard, you vote in favor of the motion.
10:17:48 If you are opposed to that, and you follow our
10:17:52 recommendations and use inordinate burden, then you
10:17:54 vote no on that motion.
10:17:56 That's before you now.
10:17:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena?
10:17:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do we need to just receive and file
10:18:01 anything?
10:18:07 >>> My.
10:18:08 >>> My recommendation would be -- the motion you have
10:18:10 before you is for the reasonable beneficial use.

10:18:12 Is that correct, Mr. Smith?
10:18:13 >>DAVID SMITH: The motion you have before you is to
10:18:15 use the taking standard which is the reasonable
10:18:18 beneficial use.
10:18:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That is my motion.
10:18:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Do we have a second?
10:18:25 >>DAVID SMITH: That's already seconded.
10:18:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Question on the motion.
10:18:27 Mr. Dingfelder.
10:18:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just as a personal point of order.
10:18:31 I'm sorry I wasn't here last week.
10:18:34 I was in New York for my son's college graduation.
10:18:36 I want to make that abundantly quick because I have
10:18:39 gotten grief from people as to why I wasn't here.
10:18:43 I wanted to clarify that.
10:18:44 I'm ready to vote.
10:18:45 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion?
10:18:49 >>MARY MULHERN: Is this first reading?
10:18:51 >>MARTIN SHELBY: What will happen, and Mr. Smith can
10:18:53 correct me, depending on how this motion goes, there
10:18:55 will be an ordinance presented, and my recommendation
10:18:57 would be that you read the title again and do first

10:18:59 reading and fresh and have it passed today
10:19:03 irrespective of your decision.
10:19:05 You have an opportunity to do first reading.
10:19:06 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to say, as we vote on
10:19:11 this, that I wasn't here.
10:19:15 Four of us weren't here when this whole issue came up,
10:19:19 after three decades of historic preservation, where
10:19:22 there was no opt-out clause for the property owner.
10:19:27 Historic designation is what's protected the frayed
10:19:36 fabric of our historic architect all over this city.
10:19:39 Had I been here, I would certainly not have even
10:19:44 entertained the idea of letting people opt out of
10:19:50 having a building be designated as historic.
10:19:54 That's the only thing that protects them. If we let
10:19:56 everybody decide, make that decision about what the
10:19:59 value, the benefit to the community, and to the
10:20:01 history of this community themselves, if we consider
10:20:04 that, then we might have nothing left.
10:20:07 So I'm very opposed to this.
10:20:09 And I would like to make it clear, as I vote, that
10:20:12 this was not something that was initiated when I was
10:20:15 on council, not something that I would support.

10:20:19 And when we start seeing historic buildings being torn
10:20:22 down, an not being protected, and we lose even more of
10:20:26 what we have, that was not because of City Council.
10:20:29 That came from elsewhere.
10:20:30 And I would just like to show, my first meeting on
10:20:37 City Council, this is one of the things we had.
10:20:38 We had the book showing all of the properties in
10:20:43 downtown Tampa that were either razed, like the
10:20:51 historic building, or falling apart, and some of them
10:20:56 which are protected historically.
10:20:57 So this is what happens when you don't have
10:20:59 protection.
10:21:00 You lose something forever.
10:21:02 So I would like to keep the standard that we have,
10:21:06 what little we have left, let's protect it, and I
10:21:09 don't see any pressing need to change that, and I just
10:21:13 want to make it really clear that this was not
10:21:16 something that was initiated this year.
10:21:22 >>> If I could clarify because I do not want the
10:21:24 council to be misled or misunderstand.
10:21:26 This is not -- let me repeat -- is not an opt-out
10:21:30 provision.

10:21:32 As I explained last time, we specifically advised you,
10:21:36 we thought that was legally risky, and that we would
10:21:39 not recommend an opt-out provision.
10:21:41 Secondly, all of the demolitions you are talking about
10:21:45 occurred under the previous standard.
10:21:47 So the question is, you need to decide whether you
10:21:50 want to take the standard.
10:21:52 I think I provided you a memorandum and told you what
10:21:53 I think that's risky to the city.
10:21:56 Or if you want an inordinate burden standard.
10:21:59 That's really your question.
10:22:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just want to recognize that there
10:22:04 are many people in the audience here who would like to
10:22:06 speak on this, but we are not affording the chance
10:22:09 based on the previous vote.
10:22:10 I just want everyone in the audience to know that
10:22:12 previously we tried to change the rules, some of us,
10:22:15 to allow to you speak, and it wasn't --
10:22:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena, that's not a question
10:22:19 on the motion.
10:22:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chair, that's not fair.
10:22:23 >>GWEN MILLER: That was not a question on the motion.

10:22:25 So we are going to vote.
10:22:26 All in favor of that motion say Aye.
10:22:28 Opposed, Nay.
10:22:32 >>THE CLERK: The motion failed with Miranda,
10:22:35 Dingfelder, Miller, Scott voting no.
10:22:38 >>GWEN MILLER: No, no.
10:22:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Hand vote.
10:22:46 >>GWEN MILLER: It was Miranda, Miller, Scott, Caetano,
10:22:50 no.
10:22:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Take your time.
10:22:55 >>THE CLERK: The motion passed then.
10:22:57 >>GWEN MILLER: No, it failed.
10:22:59 The motion failed.
10:22:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Failed on a 4-3 vote.
10:23:05 May I explain this?
10:23:07 Mrs. Saul-Sena, Mr. Dingfelder, Mrs. Mulhern.
10:23:10 Those four in opposition to the motion were Miranda,
10:23:13 Miller, Scott, and Caetano.
10:23:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well stated.
10:23:20 Thank you.
10:23:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Now we need first reading.
10:23:25 >>DAVID SMITH: Our request is you do your first

10:23:27 reading of the HPC ordinance so we are clear we are
10:23:30 dealing with HPC, and that it has changed as provided
10:23:33 to you, I think Monday or Tuesday of this week, with
10:23:36 the changes that were agreed to last week, and the
10:23:42 additional change this week, which will use the
10:23:44 inordinate burden standard.
10:23:46 >>GWEN MILLER: We don't have an ordinance.
10:23:48 You have it?
10:23:50 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't have it --
10:23:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry, Mr. Smith, you do have
10:23:53 that ordinance, is that correct?
10:23:55 >>THE CLERK: I have it.
10:23:56 >>CHAIRMAN: The clerk says she has it.
10:23:58 Mr. Miranda, are you going to read it?
10:24:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, ma'am.
10:24:03 >>> May I make a statement first very briefly?
10:24:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Read that in full or by title only?
10:24:16 If I can very briefly, council, with regard to public
10:24:17 comment.
10:24:18 Normally, I think it's advisable to have people,
10:24:20 especially when you have staff reports, to have people
10:24:23 have the opportunity to speak before we take any

10:24:26 official action.
10:24:27 However, in this case, I should remind council, I
10:24:29 should also remind the audience, this is a first
10:24:32 reading on an ordinance, and it is not adopted until a
10:24:37 second reading and a public hearing, during which time
10:24:40 people will have the full opportunity to be heard.
10:24:44 >>MARY MULHERN: So that was the first reading?
10:24:46 >>GWEN MILLER: No. Reading by title only.
10:24:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
10:24:54 Move an ordinance for first reading of the city of
10:24:56 Tampa, Florida amending City of Tampa code of
10:24:58 ordinances, chapter 27, article 9, Historic
10:25:01 Preservation Division 3, City of Tampa Preservation
10:25:03 Board, repealing and replacing section 27-230, in its
10:25:07 entirety, repealing section 27-231 in its entirety,
10:25:12 creating division 27-131.1, powers and duties of the
10:25:18 HPC and HPC staff, creating section 2.7-231.2,
10:25:25 proposed additions to the National Register of
10:25:28 Historic Places, creating section 27-231.3, local
10:25:35 designation of landmark sites, multiple properties
10:25:37 designation, overlay district and historic districts,
10:25:42 creating section 27-231.4, criteria to quality as a

10:25:46 landmark, landmark site, multiple property
10:25:48 designation, historic conservation, overlay district,
10:25:51 historic districts, creating section 27-231.5,
10:25:55 landmark site creating section 27-231.6, economic
10:26:00 hardship, creating section 27-231.7, section and
10:26:05 private building sites, structures or objects meeting
10:26:07 the criteria for designation, creating section
10:26:12 27-231.8, application to review initial designation of
10:26:16 continuing status, redesignation of building
10:26:19 structures, or objects located or within historic
10:26:25 districts or historic conservation overlay districts,
10:26:27 and change in designated status of building structure
10:26:31 or objects as contributing or not contributing,
10:26:34 creating section 27-231.9, notices creating section
10:26:39 27-231.10, appealing from decision of the HPC creating
10:26:45 section 27-231.11, design standards creating section
10:26:51 27-231.12, work plan creating section 27-231.13,
10:26:59 property maintenance required, creating section
10:27:01 27.231.14, interstate historic preservation trust
10:27:06 fund, amending section 27-523, providing for
10:27:12 severability, providing for repeal of all ordinances
10:27:15 in conflict, providing an effective date.

10:27:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Very good, Mr. Miranda.
10:27:20 We have a motion and second.
10:27:21 Question on the motion.
10:27:23 Ms. Saul-Sena.
10:27:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What I encourage legal to do if
10:27:26 this should pass is to get as busy as you can on the
10:27:28 transfer of development rights.
10:27:30 That would offset the large opening that's created in
10:27:34 this in terms of interpreting beneficial use.
10:27:44 We'll put whatever resources.
10:27:47 I'm not happy with this.
10:27:48 I agree on the other points.
10:27:49 I think this is not a wise move.
10:27:50 But if we can currently create the transfer of
10:27:52 development rights, that will create a more level
10:27:54 playing field.
10:27:55 So I encourage us to move forward with that.
10:27:57 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
10:27:58 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
10:28:00 Opposed, Nay.
10:28:03 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Saul-Sena and Mulhern
10:28:07 voting no, and Dingfelder.

10:28:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, if we can just address the
10:28:11 issue of when that second reading and adoption of
10:28:15 public hearing is going to be.
10:28:16 >>DAVID SMITH: We request July 26th.
10:28:20 I believe that's the appropriate date.
10:28:22 I think coming back with the A.R.C. on the 19th.
10:28:27 I will not be in town on the 19th so I'm
10:28:29 requesting the 26th.
10:28:30 It needs to go through the same 30 day review in any
10:28:33 event.
10:28:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved for July 26th.
10:28:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
10:28:36 (Motion carried).
10:28:43 >>DAVID SMITH: 9:30 a.m.
10:28:44 Thank you very much.
10:28:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Number 8, we need to receive and file.
10:28:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:28:49 >> Second.
10:28:50 (Motion carried).
10:28:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 9.
10:28:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move it.
10:29:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Madam clerk, you have an ordinance?

10:29:04 Would you read it?
10:29:06 Cat
10:29:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: move an ordinance making lawful the
10:29:11 conditional sale of beverages containing alcohol of
10:29:13 more than 1% by weight and not more than 14% by weight
10:29:16 and wine regardless of alcoholic content, beer and
10:29:18 wine, in sealed containers for consumption off
10:29:23 premises only at or from that certain lot, plot or
10:29:28 tract of land locate at 723 west Columbus drive,
10:29:31 Tampa, Florida, as more particularly described in
10:29:33 section 2 hereof, waiving certain restrictions as to
10:29:36 distance based upon certain findings, providing for
10:29:39 repeal of all ordinances in conflict, providing an
10:29:43 effective date.
10:29:43 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:29:44 (Motion carried).
10:29:45 Item number 10.
10:29:52 We have a memo from Ms. Miller we need to receive and
10:29:56 file.
10:29:56 >>: So moved.
10:29:57 >> Second.
10:29:57 (Motion carried).

10:29:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
10:29:59 would like to request a legislative matter? Anyone
10:30:01 else to request a legislative matter? Now we go to
10:30:05 our audience portion.
10:30:06 Anyone that wants to speak to any item on the agenda
10:30:09 not set for public hearing may speak now.
10:30:13 Mr. Davis.
10:30:14 >>> Madam Chair, members of council, I hope I am in
10:30:17 order because I want to speak to item number 5.
10:30:20 >>GWEN MILLER: You are in order.
10:30:23 >>> My name is Al Davis.
10:30:25 And I'm a citizen of the United States of America,
10:30:28 resident, City of Tampa, 3724 east wisen Avenue.
10:30:36 I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States
10:30:38 of America to the republic for which stands.
10:30:40 I'm a registered voter.
10:30:42 Having said that, Madam Chairman, to kind of help me
10:30:44 out a little bit, I have this document.
10:30:56 And it's that document I wish to call your attention
10:30:58 to.
10:30:58 And I would appeal to the council to take the
10:31:02 appropriate steps to hold in abeyance that portion of

10:31:11 that document concerning the waiver.
10:31:24 I advise to read it carefully, Madam Chairman and
10:31:28 council.
10:31:30 It scared the heck out of me.
10:31:32 I don't know if it's Constitutional for the City of
10:31:35 Tampa to ask me to waive what I feel my Constitutional
10:31:43 right, and that is for our council to take that into
10:31:52 consideration, that Constitutional issue, that is the
10:31:55 equal protection in our Constitution, and furthermore,
10:32:03 due process.
10:32:13 In the meantime I wish council would consider issuing
10:32:16 emergency orders that the administration would be
10:32:22 forbidden to implement that waiver pending another
10:32:37 alternative.
10:32:38 It's unfortunate that many of the parents,
10:32:41 particularly who would be signing that document, may
10:32:47 not even be aware of what it really does.
10:32:55 If the children are going to participate in the
10:32:58 recreation activity of this city, if anything should
10:33:05 happen to them, you have in a recourse or redress.
10:33:11 Am I misreading it, Madam Chairman?
10:33:14 >>GWEN MILLER: That's not talking about the retreat.

10:33:20 >>> Well, the retreat, I would like for the City
10:33:22 Council, in its deliberation of this retreat, to take
10:33:26 a look at some of these things that impinge on the
10:33:33 quality of life that we are entitled to enjoy, yet you
10:33:38 are asking us to waive.
10:33:43 I don't know what the agenda is going to be on the
10:33:45 retreat.
10:33:45 But it might be a good thing to take a look at it.
10:33:48 And so I just kind of seek a rider to that position of
10:34:03 that retreat.
10:34:03 (Bell sounds).
10:34:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Davis.
10:34:06 Next.
10:34:09 >>> Good morning.
10:34:09 My name is Moses Knott, Jr.
10:34:13 And I reside at 2902est Ellicott street three nights a
10:34:18 week.
10:34:19 And I just thank God for his grace and his mercy.
10:34:24 Especially his grace
10:34:37 About this water, what I heard this morning talking
10:34:40 about that water.
10:34:43 All of you use the word "us water," "my water."

10:34:53 I'm an educated man from the Bible.
10:34:55 You all studied law books.
10:34:58 I read the Bible.
10:34:59 But I don't know half of what I want to know from the
10:35:01 Bible.
10:35:01 But I know that river, that's holy water.
10:35:08 Let me tell you why I say that.
10:35:09 Come from the Bible.
10:35:12 Way back in the Bible, these canes had trouble, didn't
10:35:19 know God.
10:35:20 All the water dried up.
10:35:25 Cattle were dying, horses were dying, everything.
10:35:27 They had to turn to a man of God, Elijah.
10:35:37 I tell you all, the only way to get some water, it got
10:35:40 to come from God.
10:35:41 Elijah prayed seven days.
10:35:48 This morning you all said water come from springs, tap
10:35:51 wells.
10:35:52 The water comes down.
10:35:56 Elijah said go look for a cloud.
10:36:00 I got on my knees.
10:36:03 In seven days Elijah got on his knees praying for this

10:36:07 water.
10:36:07 The servants come running back evening leaping and
10:36:11 hollering.
10:36:13 He said, Elijah, I saw a cloud the size of a man's
10:36:17 hand, and the rain came.
10:36:20 Only through God.
10:36:22 And the first thing I want to say is, sin.
10:36:32 I mentioned grace this morning.
10:36:34 A lot of people think they can do anything and grace
10:36:38 will cover it up.
10:36:40 That's a lot.
10:36:45 Every tongue must confess before your sin is given.
10:36:52 It has for me.
10:36:55 I sinned but way back.
10:36:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Way back.
10:36:59 [ Laughter ]
10:37:02 >>> But let me tell you one thing.
10:37:04 This whole state is full of sin.
10:37:06 But one of the big sins happened four, five, six years
10:37:10 ago, when they took all our poor people folks.
10:37:16 Now, everybody think God forgot about that.
10:37:19 And like you all talked about this morning.

10:37:25 Poor people votes got throwed away in the garbage but
10:37:29 I want to say, you all said this morning, talking
10:37:32 about you all going to look 12 years, and the Bible
10:37:37 said the time is up.
10:37:39 2 T 24th chapter of Matthew said time is up now.
10:37:41 (Bell sounds).
10:37:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone else like to speak?
10:37:46 We go to our committee reports.
10:37:49 Public safety, Mr. Scott.
10:37:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would like to move item number 11.
10:37:55 >> Second.
10:37:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
10:37:56 (Motion carried).
10:37:58 >>GWEN MILLER: We have public works but neither are in
10:38:02 here.
10:38:03 Public works, Mr. Charlie Miranda.
10:38:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move items 17 through 21.
10:38:08 >>: Second.
10:38:08 (Motion carried).
10:38:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Finance Committee.
10:38:14 Joseph Caetano, he's not here either.
10:38:17 Building and zoning.

10:38:19 Reverend Scott.
10:38:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I move item 26 through 35.
10:38:24 >> Second.
10:38:24 (Motion carried).
10:38:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Transportation, Ms. Mary Mulhern.
10:38:31 >>MARY MULHERN: I move items 36 through 38.
10:38:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
10:38:36 (Motion carried).
10:38:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda, would you do public parks
10:38:39 and recreation since Ms. Saul-Sena is not in here?
10:38:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: First page.
10:38:49 Move items 12 through 16.
10:38:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Second.
10:38:54 (Motion carried).
10:38:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano, Finance Committee.
10:39:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I move items 22 to 25.
10:39:08 >> Second.
10:39:08 (Motion carried).
10:39:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Building and zoning, Mr. Joseph
10:39:12 Caetano.
10:39:13 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I move items 26 through 35.
10:39:16 >>MARY MULHERN: Second.

10:39:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
10:39:20 (Motion carried).
10:39:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
10:39:32 Calendar.
10:39:32 Set these items.
10:39:36 >> So moved.
10:39:37 Items 39 through 41.
10:39:38 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:39:40 (Motion carried).
10:39:40 We now go to our public hearings for second reading.
10:39:45 Anyone in the public that's going to speak on item 42
10:39:48 through.
10:40:02 >> On second reading?
10:40:03 >> Anyone that wants to speak on items 42 to 54, would
10:40:07 you please stand and raise your right hand?
10:40:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I ask that all written communications
10:40:24 that have been available for public inspection in
10:40:26 council's office be received and failed into the
10:40:28 record at this time.
10:40:29 Motion, please.
10:40:30 >> So moved.
10:40:31 >> Second.

10:40:31 (Motion carried).
10:40:32 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open item 42 through 54.
10:40:38 >> So moved.
10:40:38 >> Second.
10:40:38 (Motion carried).
10:40:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
10:40:41 wants to speak on item 42?
10:40:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close 42.
10:40:52 (Motion carried).
10:40:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to adopt the ordinance for
10:40:57 second reading, an ordinance of the city of Tampa,
10:40:59 Florida amending ordinance 2007-34 by correcting a
10:41:03 scrivener's error in the title and text of that
10:41:06 ordinance which authorized the installation and
10:41:08 maintenance of an encroachment canopy by Antonasko
10:41:16 Floridan LLC over a portion of the public right-of-way
10:41:19 known as North Florida Avenue and east Cass Street
10:41:22 amending said ordinance to include scrivener roar in
10:41:25 the description of the authorized encroachments to
10:41:28 include maintenance of authorized existing
10:41:31 encroachments consisting of existing architecture
10:41:34 features and existing historic sign, providing an

10:41:36 effective date.
10:41:37 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion an second.
10:41:41 Vote and record.
10:41:42 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously with Saul-Sena
10:41:58 being absent at vote.
10:42:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
10:42:01 wants to speak on item 43?
10:42:03 >> Move to close.
10:42:04 >> Second.
10:42:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to close.
10:42:07 (Motion carried).
10:42:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move the following ordinance upon
10:42:10 second reading, an ordinance amending ordinance
10:42:14 2007-93 passed and ordained by the City Council City
10:42:17 of Tampa on April 26, 2007 correcting a scrivener's
10:42:20 error by amending the incorrect address of 2901 west
10:42:24 Alline Avenue for the correct street address of 2921
10:42:27 west Alline Avenue, providing for severability,
10:42:31 providing an effective date.
10:42:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
10:42:33 Vote and record.
10:42:40 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously with Saul-Sena

10:42:41 being absent at vote.
10:42:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
10:42:45 wants to speak on 44?
10:42:47 >> Move to close.
10:42:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, you state your name could urea
10:42:55 firm that you have been sworn in?
10:42:56 >>> Cynthia Jones.
10:42:58 1607.
10:43:02 I have been sworn.
10:43:02 I would first like to apologize for not being properly
10:43:04 prepared when I came before council on this same
10:43:08 matter on the 3rd of May.
10:43:14 I guess the neighbors and I just kind of thought that
10:43:16 because the Planning Commission wasn't in favor of
10:43:20 this that it would be -- it would be accepted.
10:43:24 But I have with me today letters from all the
10:43:34 neighbors that surround this property, asking the City
10:43:39 Council to please consider our position with this and
10:43:46 decline this variance.
10:43:49 We feel like that -- like we had stated previously
10:43:55 that it was going to be a hardship for the
10:43:57 neighborhood.

10:43:59 We already have two residential group facilities in
10:44:05 the allotted area, and we feel like a third would just
10:44:09 be a hardship on the neighborhood.
10:44:12 I would also like to reiterate.
10:44:14 I know before, when I spoke on the problem with the
10:44:18 child predator, and it was brought that these children
10:44:22 were not going to be outside, or they are going to be
10:44:25 constantly supervised.
10:44:27 I don't know how many supervisors are going to be
10:44:31 responsible for the six children or the six minors
10:44:36 that are going to be at this location.
10:44:38 But being a parent, I know that you can't watch your
10:44:41 child every second of every day.
10:44:44 And children who are handicapped -- because I have a
10:44:48 handicapped grandson -- are the most loving and
10:44:52 caring, and they don't have fear, and they will walk
10:44:56 up to a stranger and go with a stranger, where maybe
10:44:59 other children wouldn't, because the natural fear.
10:45:04 So I am just asking you to consider the fact that the
10:45:08 neighbors are asking to please give us a chance to
10:45:13 pull this neighborhood together and make it a better
10:45:15 place for all the families that live there.

10:45:20 The neighbors and I, we moved here, when we bought our
10:45:28 home, we were committed to making Sulphur Springs a
10:45:31 family environment, and I am not in any way saying
10:45:37 that the people who are running the residential group
10:45:41 home are bad people, won't do a good job.
10:45:43 I'm just saying that we already have two residential
10:45:47 group homes.
10:45:49 And I feel like as a person who has worked hard to
10:45:51 make my neighborhood a better place that a third would
10:45:57 just be a burden that we should not have to bear.
10:46:02 We should not have to take on the addition of this.
10:46:04 We just want to make our neighborhood a good place, a
10:46:07 safe place.
10:46:11 Unfortunately, right now it's not.
10:46:12 It's not a good place.
10:46:14 And my children don't go outside and play except in
10:46:16 the backyard behind the fence, or unless my husband
10:46:19 and I are out front.
10:46:20 And maybe if we were on a different situation, maybe
10:46:26 if we had different situations, we would move away.
10:46:29 And we would leave our neighborhood and our home.
10:46:32 But when we bought our home, we made a commitment to

10:46:37 the city with our agreement, through the mayor's
10:46:40 challenge fund, to do our very best to make our
10:46:43 neighborhood a better place.
10:46:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to ask you a couple
10:46:48 questions.
10:46:49 How long have you lived in Sulphur Springs?
10:46:51 >>> We have resided in our home for nine years.
10:46:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:46:56 And would you be more comfortable if there were fewer
10:47:01 children in the group home, or just the idea that it's
10:47:04 a third group home in the neighborhood?
10:47:06 >>> Well, I think that it's the idea that there's a
10:47:09 third group home.
10:47:10 It's also the environment, and like I said, being a
10:47:16 parent, you cannot watch that many children constantly
10:47:20 and forever, you know?
10:47:22 You're talking about children that need a lot of
10:47:24 attention and a lot of care.
10:47:27 I have twins, okay?
10:47:29 While I was taking care of one, one had to cry, you
10:47:33 know what I mean?
10:47:34 So there's no way you can divide yourself in half and

10:47:38 be in six places and deal with six children at one
10:47:41 time.
10:47:42 There's no way I could divide myself and be with two
10:47:44 children each time.
10:47:45 So I'm just saying that in this environment, and with
10:47:50 the problems that we have with child predators, with
10:47:52 the problems that we have with the drugs,, that all
10:48:01 wave to do, if they are playing loud music, or -- they
10:48:06 have a lot of fights out there -- we just call up the
10:48:09 police department and say -- they tell us, yes, ma'am,
10:48:16 we are on our way.
10:48:17 You know.
10:48:19 And like I say, we are working.
10:48:21 We are fighting.
10:48:22 We are moving ahead to try to make Sulphur Springs.
10:48:27 I grew up in Tampa.
10:48:28 I have lived here my whole life.
10:48:30 And I remember when Sulphur Springs was a beautiful,
10:48:34 wonderful place.
10:48:35 And I would like to see Sulphur Springs come back to
10:48:38 that again.
10:48:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I also want will wait till after

10:48:51 public comment.
10:48:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
10:48:55 >>> I'm David Marshall Johns.
10:48:57 I live at 1607 east Idell street.
10:49:00 I have been sworn.
10:49:00 And that was my wife that just spoke.
10:49:06 Because I wasn't aware whether or not we had rebuttal
10:49:10 on this meeting that was taken on the 3rd, there
10:49:15 was a couple of things mentioned by the petitioner
10:49:19 that weren't quite accurate, one being that the
10:49:23 halfway house was down around the corner.
10:49:25 Well, the one is 805 feet away is five house as way,
10:49:33 right down the street.
10:49:34 You can see it from my driveway.
10:49:36 Okay.
10:49:37 It's not down and around the corner.
10:49:39 And the other is that you could look at those letters
10:49:43 there.
10:49:49 How they felt of this halfway house, I have in a idea
10:49:52 who they spoke to because those letters absolutely
10:49:55 surround the property in question.
10:49:57 Now, my wife is a lovely person, and she's going with

10:50:03 heart strings.
10:50:03 I'm out with finances because I'm the one out there
10:50:06 working 70, hours a weak to pay for what we have,
10:50:09 which about a third of my income last year was used to
10:50:14 fix that repair, and replace four stolen vehicles that
10:50:19 happened in front of our house.
10:50:21 I haven't been able to replace my German Shepherd
10:50:25 puppy that somebody came in the backyard, used bolt
10:50:29 cutters, cut through the pen and took my dog.
10:50:32 I haven't been able to replace all the dents in my
10:50:38 cars from the riot that took place in front of my
10:50:41 house.
10:50:41 I knew none of these people.
10:50:43 Okay.
10:50:43 This is the kind of neighborhood that we are going to
10:50:45 have maybe one or two house mothers take care of very
10:50:53 few people that are handicapped.
10:50:55 And this is just not right.
10:50:56 It's not right in many ways.
10:50:58 For one thing, the property value of my home would be
10:51:01 $250,000, and any other neighborhood in this city.
10:51:06 If I could get 120 or 130, I would consider myself

10:51:10 fortunate and flee.
10:51:13 But the thing is if I have another halfway house, and
10:51:16 I'm down to 100,000.
10:51:21 You know, I have owned my house now after living there
10:51:25 nine years than its worth.
10:51:26 It's crazy.
10:51:27 And again, you are worried about our water and stuff
10:51:33 like that and the physical consequences of your
10:51:36 decision.
10:51:37 This is my whole finance, right there, that one little
10:51:42 piece of property.
10:51:43 That's all I have.
10:51:45 And your decision today is going to say, okay, it will
10:51:51 cost you another 25 to $30,000 in depression.
10:51:55 I don't have anything against these people either.
10:51:57 But the thing is, she did not do due diligence.
10:52:01 If she had this question when it come up she said she
10:52:05 wouldn't have bought.
10:52:06 If she has a financial adviser, why didn't you take
10:52:11 enough time to find out what the ordinance stated
10:52:13 instead of coming here and asking you to break an
10:52:15 ordinance and give her variances on an ordinance

10:52:18 that's already on the books?
10:52:21 Nobody knocked on our doors.
10:52:22 Nobody asked.
10:52:22 I learned from a construction worker that it was to be
10:52:26 a group home.
10:52:27 (Bell sounds).
10:52:28 And I ask for your help in this manner.
10:52:32 Thank you.
10:52:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
10:52:37 >>> Good morning.
10:52:38 I have been sworn in.
10:52:40 I'm Madaline Thomas, the petitioner.
10:52:47 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I could make sure there's no one
10:52:49 else to speak before the period of rebuttal.
10:52:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Anybody else like to speak?
10:52:52 Okay, thank you.
10:52:54 >>> First of all, I am from Jamaica.
10:53:00 And I am given the opportunity to reside in the United
10:53:05 States as a pediatric R.N. taking care of sick
10:53:09 children.
10:53:11 I believe children are wonderful, important, and these
10:53:17 disabled children need a home.

10:53:20 Even if this home was to be set up next to the
10:53:24 president of the United States, if there wasn't an
10:53:29 issue with a variance, it would not have been here
10:53:31 today.
10:53:32 It would have been up and running.
10:53:34 These children are innocent.
10:53:37 They are going to be in a staff mandated by division
10:53:44 of children.
10:53:47 These are not our personal children.
10:53:52 They belong to the state where there are guidelines
10:53:55 and ensure the safety of these children.
10:53:59 There are in a group home studies down the road that I
10:54:02 know of.
10:54:02 As you can see, as I said it's two streets over.
10:54:10 We are not in this business to harm the children, to
10:54:14 make money.
10:54:16 They have provided to ensure that they have food, they
10:54:22 have shelter, and they are well taken care of.
10:54:25 If I could use my own money to do it, I would.
10:54:29 I'm not -- whatever the state says for the children
10:54:35 that's what I have to use to take care of them.
10:54:39 I am more careful since 1994.

10:54:41 I suffered a back injury.
10:54:45 I work in oncology.
10:54:47 I work in the field of whatever it takes.
10:54:52 I was one of the nurses to work in the projects to
10:54:56 take care of children.
10:54:57 I am not scared to go into any neighborhood as long as
10:55:00 I am taking care of the children.
10:55:01 And why are they saying that their neighborhood is so
10:55:04 bad?
10:55:05 They are saying that they have disabled children that
10:55:07 live in the neighborhood.
10:55:08 I'm pretty sure they are insuring the safety of their
10:55:13 children, okay?
10:55:14 I can do the same thing.
10:55:18 I make sure my staff does the same thing.
10:55:20 I am here to cause in a harm to the children.
10:55:26 He's saying that I failed to do my research.
10:55:28 I did do research.
10:55:32 She had to approve it before I bought the house.
10:55:35 But when I came downtown, that's when I realized that
10:55:39 there was a slight difference.
10:55:41 So I did try to -- actually in the process of opening

10:55:47 one in Brandon.
10:55:53 No one is opposing it.
10:55:55 There's no problem.
10:55:57 So what makes a difference with Sulphur Springs as
10:56:03 opposed to other neighborhoods?
10:56:04 I mean, these are citizens of the United States.
10:56:11 They know the crisis that their own children are
10:56:13 facing today.
10:56:18 It's not about me.
10:56:18 It's not about my rates, not about my color, not about
10:56:24 my nationality.
10:56:26 It's all about taken care children with experienced
10:56:28 people who are committed.
10:56:29 And that's what I am all about today.
10:56:32 It's really bring kids, that people are looking to
10:56:38 boot children out of their neighborhood that are not
10:56:40 the ones that are stealing their cars, they are not
10:56:44 the ones that are driving around playing loud music,
10:56:47 that are not the ones that are depreciated their own
10:56:51 value.
10:56:54 The price is right in the market for homes.
10:56:56 It has nothing to do with disabled children.

10:57:02 I spoke to residents of Sulphur Springs actually
10:57:06 understanding, and not being influenced by people who
10:57:10 don't understand what is going on.
10:57:14 I mean, it is very sad for me, you know.
10:57:18 I'm really disappointed.
10:57:19 I don't know what to say.
10:57:21 I don't know -- they want to take a personal approach.
10:57:29 I can make them feel comfortable.
10:57:30 I can understand make them understand what I am and
10:57:33 what I am about.
10:57:35 I am not going to cause any problem to make it bad for
10:57:38 my neighbors.
10:57:38 I would love to have a relationship with them.
10:57:42 I would love to be a neighbor to make sure everything
10:57:47 is okay.
10:57:53 So I'm just disappointed.
10:57:56 I mean, where are the people if they are so strong
10:58:01 against it?
10:58:01 I have talked to neighbors, people with disabled
10:58:05 children.
10:58:05 I have disabled children.
10:58:06 I work at a home right now in several different

10:58:08 neighborhoods that have disabled children.
10:58:11 And we are going to take care of them.
10:58:14 (Bell sounds).
10:58:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
10:58:17 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
10:58:20 >> Motion and second to close.
10:58:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Madam Chair, if I could.
10:58:25 I move the ordinance.
10:58:25 And I just wanted to say that this council has gone
10:58:28 out of its way to protect this neighborhood.
10:58:30 This came in just as a stray group home.
10:58:33 We heard your concerns.
10:58:34 I think your concerns are completely valid in regard
10:58:36 to another group home.
10:58:38 But this is a specialty group home, limited to six
10:58:42 beds and limited to disabled minors, and I think it's
10:58:45 our responsibility to give those young folks an
10:58:47 opportunity to be cared for in our community.
10:58:49 So with that --
10:58:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott?
10:58:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And I concur with councilman
10:58:57 Dingfelder on that.

10:58:58 Let me just add, Madam Chair, because it is a state
10:59:02 group home, it is regulated, inspected as well, by the
10:59:05 way.
10:59:07 They have to meet all the requirements.
10:59:09 They have to meet all the staffing requirements, as
10:59:11 well as the structure.
10:59:14 All these required.
10:59:14 And my church operates a school and daycare.
10:59:20 So they have to meet all those.
10:59:22 And really the property should go up in value, really,
10:59:25 it shouldn't go down, it should go up.
10:59:27 Because here again it has to be maintained, and be
10:59:30 well kept, sanitized, cleaned, inspected, meet all of
10:59:36 the codes and requirements.
10:59:37 It shouldn't go down, it should go up.
10:59:39 For me, I would much rather have a special need group
10:59:42 home as opposed to a halfway drug house.
10:59:46 So let me -- I move to adopt the following ordinance
10:59:54 upon second reading, an ordinance providing special
10:59:57 use permit S-1 on appeal from a decision of the zoning
11:00:00 administrator, approving a congregate living facility,
11:00:03 group care facility, small 6 beds, for disabled

11:00:06 minors, only, in an RS-50 residential single family
11:00:10 zoning district in the city of Tampa, Florida and more
11:00:12 particularly described in section 1 reducing the
11:00:15 required separation from another congregate living fa
11:00:17 symptom from 1200 feet to 805 feet providing an
11:00:25 effective date.
11:00:28 >> Second.
11:00:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is one of the hardest
11:00:31 petitions I have heard, everybody speaking from their
11:00:32 heart.
11:00:33 I believe the petitioner is a saintly person who wants
11:00:35 to help these children.
11:00:37 But I really believe that the rules that you should
11:00:39 have separation between different facilities is there
11:00:44 because we didn't want neighborhoods to be overwhelmed
11:00:48 with any kind of group home.
11:00:52 This is a more benign one than people who are
11:00:55 recuperating from drug problems.
11:00:57 But I still feel like Sulfur Springs is really
11:00:59 struggling to come back as a neighborhood, and I dare
11:01:02 say that in Brandon, the reason they didn't have a
11:01:04 problem is because there wasn't another facility

11:01:06 within a thousand feet.
11:01:08 The neighbors have shared with us their concerns.
11:01:10 The hearing master recommended disapproval.
11:01:13 Based on that, this is really hard but I am not going
11:01:15 to be able to support the petition.
11:01:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:01:18 Vote and record.
11:01:30 >> Motion carried with Saul-Sena voting no.
11:01:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:01:34 wants to speak on item 45?
11:01:36 >> Move to close.
11:01:37 >> Second.
11:01:37 (Motion carried).
11:01:40 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: An ordinance presented for second
11:01:45 reading, an ordinance rezoning property in the general
11:01:47 vicinity of 22nd Avenue, Saxon Avenue, elmwood
11:01:52 Avenue, Bermuda Avenue and maple Avenue in the city of
11:01:55 Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
11:01:57 section 1 from zoning district classification RS-50,
11:02:01 residential single-family, CN, commercial
11:02:05 neighborhood, CG, commercial general, and RM-16
11:02:10 residential multifamily, to PD, planned development

11:02:13 mixed use, retail, residential, providing an effective
11:02:15 date.
11:02:17 9 I have a motion and second.
11:02:19 Question, Ms. Saul-Sena.
11:02:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We discussed this previously.
11:02:22 I'm hoping for some kind of miracle where everybody
11:02:24 suddenly says, you know, Palmetto Beach is a very
11:02:27 distinctive historic neighborhood and should not have
11:02:30 a non-grid area with a gate around it and I really
11:02:34 encourage you all to not support this.
11:02:37 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:02:38 Vote and record.
11:02:40 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Mulhern and Saul-Sena
11:02:51 voting no.
11:02:52 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to item 46 for first reading.
11:02:57 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Item 46, Madam Chair, I believe is to
11:03:08 be removed because it was previously denied by council
11:03:11 on May 10th.
11:03:14 >> Move to remove 46 and 47 on the same basis.
11:03:20 (Motion carried.)
11:03:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Number 48.
11:03:28 First reading?

11:03:29 Second reading?
11:03:32 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Adoption of public hearing.
11:03:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone to speak on 48?
11:03:35 >> Move to close.
11:03:35 >> Second.
11:03:36 (Motion carried).
11:03:42 >>MARY MULHERN: I move to adopt an ordinance being
11:03:46 presented for second reading, an ordinance amending
11:03:49 the Tampa comprehensive plan, future land use element,
11:03:52 future land use map, for the property located in the
11:03:55 general vicinity of the northwest corner of McKinley
11:03:59 drive and Bougainvillea Avenue from heavy industrial
11:04:03 to community mixed use 35, providing for repeal of all
11:04:05 ordinances in conflict, providing for severability,
11:04:09 providing an effective date.
11:04:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:04:12 Vote and record.
11:04:16 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:04:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the audience that
11:04:29 wants to speak on item 49?
11:04:31 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I believe there is a letter
11:04:33 from -- do you wish to address that?

11:04:36 >>> My name is Evan Johnson with Wilson Miller, 2205
11:04:42 north 20th street. This is a letter withdrawing
11:04:44 that application which was 06-28.
11:04:48 And I believe you also got copies.
11:04:54 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It would be in the motion to accept
11:04:56 that.
11:05:01 >> Who is the petitioner?
11:05:02 >>> Wilson Miller.
11:05:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved to allow the petitioner to
11:05:06 withdraw.
11:05:07 (Motion carried).
11:05:08 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:05:09 wants to speak on item 50?
11:05:12 >> Move to close.
11:05:13 >> Second.
11:05:13 (Motion carried).
11:05:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move the following ordinance upon
11:05:19 second reading, an ordinance amending the
11:05:21 comprehensive plan, future land use element, future
11:05:24 land use map for the property located in the general
11:05:26 vicinity of east Lake Avenue and north 50th street
11:05:29 from major public/semi-public to community mixed use

11:05:34 35 providing for repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
11:05:36 providing for severability, providing an effective
11:05:37 date.
11:05:38 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:05:39 Vote and record.
11:05:48 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:05:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:05:51 wants to speak on item 51?
11:05:53 >>: Move to close.
11:05:54 >> Second.
11:05:54 (Motion carried).
11:05:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move to adopt the following
11:06:00 ordinance upon second reading, on a small scale plan
11:06:05 amendment to the Tampa comprehensive plan, future land
11:06:06 use map land use element, future land use map for the
11:06:09 property located in the general vicinity of Kennedy
11:06:11 Boulevard, north B street, Oregon Avenue, Willow
11:06:14 Avenue from general mixed use 24 to urban mixed use
11:06:18 60.
11:06:20 -- I read the wrong part, excuse me.
11:06:26 Providing for repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
11:06:29 providing for severability, providing an effective

11:06:30 date.
11:06:30 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:06:32 Vote and record.
11:06:39 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:06:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the audience that
11:06:46 wants to speak on item 52?
11:06:48 >> Move to close the public hearing.
11:06:49 >> Second.
11:06:49 (Motion carried).
11:06:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move the following upon second
11:06:54 reading, an ordinance amending the Tampa comprehensive
11:06:56 plan, future land use map land use element, future
11:06:58 land use map for property located in the general
11:07:00 vicinity of north of north "B" street, south of Carmen
11:07:05 Street, east of Fremont street and west of Oregon
11:07:07 Avenue, from general mixed use 24 residential 10 and
11:07:11 residential 20 to community mixed use 35, providing
11:07:15 for repeal of all ordinances in conflict, providing
11:07:18 for severability, providing an effective date.
11:07:18 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:07:20 Vote and record.
11:07:26 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.

11:07:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:07:29 wants to speak on item 53?
11:07:32 >>: Move to close.
11:07:33 >> Second.
11:07:33 (Motion carried).
11:07:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott?
11:07:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I move to adopt the following
11:07:40 ordinance upon second reading, an ordinance amending
11:07:43 the Tampa comprehensive plan, future land use map land
11:07:45 use element, future land use map, for the property
11:07:48 located in the general vicinity of east ADALEE street,
11:07:53 east Plymouth street, and north Jefferson street from
11:07:55 residential 10 to residential 35 providing for repeal
11:07:58 of all ordinances in conflict, providing for
11:08:00 severability, providing an effective date.
11:08:01 >> Second.
11:08:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Vote and record.
11:08:05 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:08:16 >> Move to strike item 54 pursuant to a letter from
11:08:19 Hartline.
11:08:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay, withdraw it.
11:08:21 All in favor of the motion say Aye.

11:08:23 (Motion carried).
11:08:23 >>GWEN MILLER: If there's anyone in the public that
11:08:29 wants to speak on item 55, please raise your right
11:08:31 hand.
11:08:32 (Oath administered by Clerk)
11:08:49 >> Somebody's phone is vibrating.
11:08:55 >>JILL FINNEY: Land Development Coordination.
11:08:57 I have been sworn.
11:08:59 We have $-07-29 located at 3801 Henderson Boulevard.
11:09:04 The petitioner proposes to rezone the property at 3801
11:09:11 to develop a bank with a drive-in.
11:09:17 To reorient you a little bit.
11:09:26 The petition was originally held before council on
11:09:29 April 26, 2007, at the direction of council.
11:09:32 The petitioner has made the minor graphical changes to
11:09:34 the site plan.
11:09:36 The revised plan has met all of staff's concerns, and
11:09:39 therefore all outstanding objections have been
11:09:41 removed.
11:09:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have discussed at the previous
11:09:51 hearing the pylon signs.
11:09:53 I wondered if there have been any changes made to

11:09:57 that.
11:10:04 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: John Grandoff, suite 3700 Bank of
11:10:11 America Plaza.
11:10:13 On behalf of the petitioner, family partnership, David
11:10:18 Skinner and Buddy Skinner with me this morning.
11:10:21 The sign proposal has been prepared by their sign
11:10:27 contractor.
11:10:29 There's a photograph of the sign.
11:10:34 The site plan had an error that showed 30 feet,
11:10:37 appearing two weeks ago.
11:10:38 The plan will be 20 feet.
11:10:41 What is currently on the property, this is according
11:10:44 to chapter 20.5, the sign ordinance.
11:10:47 This is what's really on the forgot.
11:10:48 This is the old Kentucky Fried Chicken.
11:11:05 I have several signs of Henderson Boulevard.
11:11:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Henderson Boulevard is nothing we
11:11:09 would use want to use to as spare to.
11:11:11 I mean, that's why I think this is so exciting that
11:11:14 you are going to build a beautiful bank there.
11:11:16 And I assume it's going to be more tasteful.
11:11:19 And that's why, because I know that bank Atlantic has

11:11:23 a very distinct -- I think you have something on the
11:11:26 side of the building.
11:11:29 That you wouldn't need to put another sign on
11:11:31 Henderson Boulevard and Dale Mabry.
11:11:33 But, rather, you could put like a monument sign.
11:11:37 Did you think about that?
11:11:42 >>> This is their program, Mrs. Saul-Sena.
11:11:44 We discuss it with the bank and their program to
11:11:46 compete with other banks that are also competing in
11:11:48 the marketplace.
11:11:51 >> Are you asking for a waiver of the sign ordinance?
11:11:53 >>> No, we are not.
11:11:54 This is according to the 20.35.
11:11:58 >> Thank you.
11:11:58 >>> We want to show you where the signs are going to
11:12:00 be because the code requires in a PD that you so
11:12:03 advertise.
11:12:03 There's no waivers.
11:12:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: For the record the height on the site
11:12:09 plan was corrected?
11:12:11 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Yes.
11:12:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Continue with your presentation..

11:12:15 >>> Yes, 20 feet.
11:12:17 That's all I have.
11:12:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:12:22 wants to speak on item 55?
11:12:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
11:12:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
11:12:26 (Motion carried).
11:12:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk, do you have an ordinance?
11:12:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move the following ordinance, first
11:12:36 reading, I assume, correct?
11:12:39 An ordinance rezoning property at 3801 Henderson
11:12:48 Boulevard from CG to PD bank, drive in, providing an
11:12:52 effective date.
11:12:54 67 motion and second.
11:12:54 (Motion carried).
11:12:55 >>> To supplement the record, I received a letter from
11:12:59 the Palma Ceia west homeowners association supporting
11:13:02 the project.
11:13:03 I didn't get the letter till after the hearing.
11:13:05 I would like to just file that.
11:13:06 >>GWEN MILLER: You may.
11:13:07 We now go to information from council members.

11:13:10 Ms. Saul-Sena, do you have anything?
11:13:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes, thank you, Madam Chairman.
11:13:14 Number 10, Cynthia Miller said that the city doesn't
11:13:17 have a role in the private agreement between the West
11:13:21 Tampa CDC and a petitioner.
11:13:25 And it seems to me that when somebody comes before
11:13:29 council for a zoning approval that it just doesn't
11:13:35 feel right that they should be able to get money from
11:13:38 a private developer to go to a neighborhood
11:13:42 organization, and then in turn the neighborhood
11:13:44 organization what he's in Aye or Nay, is this a good
11:13:48 idea?
11:13:49 It just feels like if what they are trying to do is,
11:13:51 for example, provide affordable housing, the
11:13:54 appropriate and most sunshiny and transparent way to
11:13:59 go is for the petitioner to give the money to the City
11:14:02 of Tampa's affordable housing program for use in this
11:14:06 area.
11:14:07 That way, it's all in the sunshine, aboveboard, clear,
11:14:13 and I think that that's the direction that we should
11:14:17 encourage neighborhood organizations to go.
11:14:21 And I'll give you all a good example.

11:14:22 A couple of years ago, Tampa General Hospital wanted
11:14:25 to expand, and they wanted to take some Parkland away
11:14:28 from the city park that was adjacent to the hospital.
11:14:31 Instead of saying, we'll give a million dollars to the
11:14:34 Davis Island civic association, they said, we'll give
11:14:37 a million dollars to the city, with the civic
11:14:40 association and the chamber weighing in on how that
11:14:43 money should be spent on park land.
11:14:45 I feel like the city, everybody respects as the
11:14:48 neutral, sunshiny participant in all of this, and if
11:14:54 there's money to be spent for something for the
11:14:57 public, that the city should be the recipient of the
11:15:00 money, rather than it being private relationship
11:15:04 between a developer and a neighborhood organization,
11:15:07 because -- I'm not saying that there's anything wrong
11:15:10 here, but there is the opportunity for there to be
11:15:12 something that isn't completely Kosher.
11:15:15 And I just think that everything needs to be nice and
11:15:17 sunshiny.
11:15:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I second that motion.
11:15:20 I agree with Mrs. Saul-Sena what she just put it in so
11:15:24 nice words, providing, however, that there's in a

11:15:29 direction from anyone, and I'm sure there's not, that
11:15:32 this is a must that they must do, when they not that
11:15:40 if you do this, I am going to do that for you.
11:15:42 That being said I will support the motion
11:15:43 wholeheartedly.
11:15:44 I think it's a very good motion.
11:15:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions?
11:15:48 There's a motion and second.
11:15:51 >> Maybe I should clarify it.
11:15:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think the question only to what's
11:15:55 been happening is you encourage the neighborhood
11:16:06 associations going out, and evidently they have been
11:16:08 told you need to do this, this, and this, and
11:16:10 evidently there's been some discussion of bonds or
11:16:15 finance.
11:16:15 That's what I have been told.
11:16:18 That creates a problem as well.
11:16:19 So I agree 100%.
11:16:27 You may speak to this.
11:16:28 On a legal standpoint, do can we weigh in on any prior
11:16:35 negotiations between civic associations and whatever?
11:16:38 I agree with you 100%.

11:16:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Legal could tell us -- is there
11:16:43 anyone here from legal?
11:16:48 >>> John McKirchy.
11:16:49 Which to come back with that.
11:16:51 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I could share with council.
11:16:52 I agree if you wish to have somebody from legal to
11:16:54 come back, council has been faced with this issue.
11:16:58 I should point out from a legal standpoint the fact
11:17:02 that there is a private side agreement between a
11:17:05 neighborhood organization, whatever organization and a
11:17:08 developer, A, it's totally inappropriate to even be
11:17:15 raised at this juncture because it should in no way
11:17:18 enter into your decision making, except if that
11:17:21 payment has caused the neighborhood association to
11:17:25 change what otherwise would be its opinion, in which
11:17:27 case it goes to you might want to know what was
11:17:31 decided because it might weigh as to how much weight
11:17:34 you give to their recommendation, because one could
11:17:37 argue, without saying making any judgment, that it may
11:17:41 affect a payment, a side agreement to make a payment
11:17:45 may affect one's judgment.
11:17:46 So in that sense, it would be appropriate to ask legal

11:17:49 for an opinion about it.
11:17:51 My recommendation would be that it would be
11:17:55 appropriate to find out if that's the case.
11:17:58 My understanding is that the administration, in
11:18:00 talking with legal about it briefly, is that
11:18:04 discourages that from happening, and says very clearly
11:18:07 and has said to this council on previous occasions
11:18:10 that in no way is that side agreement enforceable nor
11:18:14 does the city want to become involved in that sort of
11:18:16 transaction.
11:18:17 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
11:18:20 I'm sorry.
11:18:23 I partially heard the conversation.
11:18:25 Way understand the issue is generally, and we have in
11:18:28 the past had this issue come up, if you have a
11:18:33 rezoning, some other kind of petition moving forward
11:18:36 to you, and there has been conversations between a
11:18:39 developer and a neighborhood association about maybe
11:18:43 doing some neighborhood improvement, et cetera,
11:18:46 whether or not that's appropriate to recognize it's
11:18:50 part of a site plan zoning, noted on the site plan or
11:18:54 some other way by the city, and I think I have opined

11:18:56 previously that unless -- unless there is some kind of
11:19:01 requirement of the city that that be done as part of
11:19:04 that development, and it's an agreement in essence
11:19:07 between both the city and the developer to do that as
11:19:09 a result of the approval and the impact of what's
11:19:13 being approved, there would be no ability for the city
11:19:17 to enforce that.
11:19:18 It would be considerably a legal note, and a legal
11:19:22 condition of that approval.
11:19:23 We have no authority to stop private developers and
11:19:25 private citizens from coming in and having some
11:19:27 conversations and how they want to deal, but unless
11:19:37 there is a nexus between what that petitioner is
11:19:39 asking for from the city, and what the -- and what the
11:19:42 city is requesting, unless there's some relationship
11:19:47 that requires the requirement, it's something that
11:19:50 cannot be enforced.
11:19:51 And I know that issue has come up in the past.
11:19:53 And I think the legal department has consistently
11:19:56 opined in that manner.
11:19:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think we can explore this to make
11:20:03 it clear.

11:20:04 I have two concerns.
11:20:05 I understand the nexus issue.
11:20:06 That's not a problem.
11:20:08 We have said before, if somebody wants to do, let's
11:20:10 say, affordable housing, that what I'm saying,
11:20:15 shouldn't we as a city, who has a department that
11:20:21 works on affordable housing, shouldn't we be the
11:20:23 appropriate facilitator of that, rather than being
11:20:31 private-private.
11:20:32 My concern is that any private agreements might change
11:20:34 the feedback we get from the neighborhood group at a
11:20:38 zoning meeting.
11:20:39 I want things to be transparent and sunshiny.
11:20:42 To that end, I think that it's appropriate for council
11:20:45 to work with legal and figure out how to make
11:20:47 everything as clear and sunshiny as possible.
11:20:51 And I'm saying, couldn't you work with that, with us
11:20:54 on that?
11:20:56 >>JULIA COLE: Well, absolutely.
11:20:58 Maybe it would be appropriate for me to spend some
11:21:00 time maybe detail immediately what our prom terse are
11:21:06 and look at that in the context of affordable housing

11:21:09 project outside of the zoning.
11:21:11 And if there are other parameters that we may have,
11:21:14 and I am happy to do that, I am just generally giving
11:21:16 you the status of where we are right now.
11:21:19 So I guess if I could clearly understand what
11:21:22 direction you want to go, I'll actually research that,
11:21:25 and come back with maybe a written memo to you what
11:21:29 the parameters are.
11:21:32 >> We understand what the parameters are now.
11:21:34 I'm talking about ways to make things crisper and
11:21:36 clearer in the future, to protect developers, to
11:21:39 protect neighborhoods, to make things enclosure as to
11:21:45 what -- anyway, so I guess my motion is either work
11:21:49 with -- to be work with legal to create clear
11:21:52 understanding about how, if there's any money to go
11:21:56 between a developer and a neighborhood group, that the
11:22:03 money -- if there are any improvements that the
11:22:08 neighborhood group wants to see, that those
11:22:11 improvements either be done by the developer or the
11:22:13 city.
11:22:18 >>JULIA COLE: My only question, are you talking in the
11:22:20 context of a rezoning, or talking in the context -- I

11:22:23 guess I don't understand what context we are talking
11:22:27 about because maybe that would have a different
11:22:29 answer.
11:22:30 >>: The context I'm thinking of is a rezoning.
11:22:32 The developer is seeking the support of the
11:22:34 neighborhood group.
11:22:35 The neighborhood group says give me $400,000 and I
11:22:38 think your rezoning is swell.
11:22:40 That doesn't seem right.
11:22:43 >>> I would absolutely agree with you.
11:22:45 I'm just not really sure.
11:22:54 >> Could we talk about this?
11:22:58 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If council wishes to have us look
11:23:01 into it, I would be more than happy to work with Ms.
11:23:03 Cole.
11:23:03 I should point out very briefly that you, as a
11:23:07 quasi-judicial board, have the opportunity to inquire
11:23:10 of people under oath, and if you just want to have it
11:23:13 clear on the record as a neighborhood association
11:23:16 representative speaking, if you want to ask them a
11:23:18 direct question to have it on the record, was there
11:23:20 any remuneration, is there any side agreement?

11:23:23 You could choose to do that but that's just
11:23:25 something -- we could do that.
11:23:28 >> I would like to come up with a better process.
11:23:30 >>GWEN MILLER: We still have a motion?
11:23:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do I need a motion to talk with you
11:23:35 about this?
11:23:36 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
11:23:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The motion is off the table.
11:23:41 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else?
11:23:43 Mr. Miranda?
11:23:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, I would like to have the legal
11:23:46 department either appear or send us a written response
11:23:49 to the request that there's $12 million floating
11:23:52 around somewhere since September 4th, 1996, and I
11:23:56 read about it and I heard about it from different
11:23:59 media statements that have been made.
11:24:02 And I want to know what's going to happen to the $12
11:24:07 million that the taxpayers of this great county put
11:24:12 in, and if they can give us some -- a report, first,
11:24:17 what's happening to the 12 million, and where do they
11:24:20 think it's supposed to be, and how the distribution if
11:24:22 it comes back?

11:24:23 I can also tell you that the Sports Authority has been
11:24:29 making about 500, 6, 000,000 a year, as they should
11:24:33 be, to meet their obligation, because their
11:24:35 obligations, when you take away their money, it's very
11:24:38 little income coming in.
11:24:40 So I'm almost sure the counties will look at this in
11:24:45 the next week or so, and if we could do the same
11:24:48 thing, to just tell us.
11:24:49 I am not looking anything other than a report what
11:24:53 they think the $12 million if it's going to be
11:24:55 distributed back to the taxpayers or what the item is
11:24:58 that's going to have to go this 12 million.
11:25:01 >> Second.
11:25:02 >>GWEN MILLER: of a written report.
11:25:05 (Motion carried).
11:25:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Don't we have a number of members
11:25:08 on the council authority?
11:25:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes, I'm on there, and they have been
11:25:12 talking about it.
11:25:12 We know working with the Buccaneers is very hard.
11:25:14 The money has to come from them.
11:25:16 So they are working with them, and the attorney is

11:25:18 working with them to see how can we get the money,
11:25:20 what can we do.
11:25:21 So that hasn't come to a conclusion yet but they are
11:25:25 working on it.
11:25:26 Anything else, Mr. Miranda?
11:25:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, thank you.
11:25:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
11:25:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: June is American rivers month.
11:25:35 And I would like Alan or somebody else from the river
11:25:41 board to come and receive a commendation from us
11:25:45 recognizing the Hillsborough River, and all that it
11:25:47 brings to us.
11:25:49 >> Second.
11:25:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion an sec.
11:25:50 (Motion carried).
11:25:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: How about the second week in June?
11:25:57 Second meeting in June?
11:25:59 (Motion carried).
11:25:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And I don't think we talked about
11:26:04 this today.
11:26:05 There's an opinion came out that we have been provided
11:26:07 in regard to the litigation, the Citivest litigation,

11:26:12 and I just want to make sure that our attorneys brief
11:26:15 us individually on where we are going to go next, if
11:26:19 there's a possibility of appeal to the Florida supreme
11:26:21 court, or if we go back to the drawing board.
11:26:25 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Without speaking specifically about
11:26:26 it, my understanding is the legal department -- the
11:26:29 opinion just came out yesterday -- the legal
11:26:31 department has e-mailed a copy to each of you, and I
11:26:34 am absolutely certain that you will be in contact with
11:26:37 the legal department who will advise you of what their
11:26:40 opinion is regarding the appropriate action.
11:26:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's not really a motion, just a
11:26:46 request.
11:26:46 That's all, thank you.
11:26:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Other than, Madam Chairman, that my
11:26:52 aide has handed me the latest news that the governor
11:26:56 slashed $69 million from the budget. Among the vetoed
11:27:01 items are hundreds of millions of dollars in water and
11:27:03 watershed projects.
11:27:05 So since we are talking about water, wanted to let you
11:27:08 know that.
11:27:10 And additional start-up costs for the new Tampa Bay

11:27:13 Regional Transportation Authority.
11:27:17 That's vetoed, slashed.
11:27:20 I want to mention that to you.
11:27:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern?
11:27:25 Mr. Caetano?
11:27:26 Okay.
11:27:27 I have a few items.
11:27:31 Mindy cross from the estuary program has requested to
11:27:36 have use the city seal in their brochure.
11:27:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
11:27:41 >> Second.
11:27:41 (Motion carried).
11:27:41 >>GWEN MILLER: And Mr. David would like to come before
11:27:47 council members on the street corridor enhancement
11:27:50 project. {^}
11:27:50 >> So moved.
11:27:51 >> Second.
11:27:51 (Motion carried)
11:27:53 >>GWEN MILLER: And I would like to get someone from
11:27:56 the police department to give us a report on all the
11:27:59 problems in Ybor City.
11:28:01 I have had I don't know how many e-mails about all the

11:28:04 things at the club and I know citizens he mailed me.
11:28:18 We need to kind of control what's going on, because we
11:28:20 are trying to get Ybor City back to where it should
11:28:22 be, and now people are going to be afraid to go into
11:28:27 Ybor City.
11:28:28 I would like someone from the police department to
11:28:30 come up, I guess in two weeks, give us a report on
11:28:33 what they are doing and how they are going to control
11:28:35 this.
11:28:36 I make that -- someone make that motion for me.
11:28:41 >> Make the motion.
11:28:41 >> Second.
11:28:41 (Motion carried).
11:28:44 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: (off microphone)
11:28:55 Mr. Barrios, Ms. Miller, and the greater Tampa
11:28:59 builders association.
11:29:02 So we are putting our facts together, so that we can
11:29:05 modify this chapter 28.
11:29:11 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a memo from the mayor.
11:29:13 She would like for us to have two people on the
11:29:18 Suncoast municipality Board of Directors, have a
11:29:20 member and then an alternate.

11:29:22 Mr. Dingfelder?
11:29:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I would like -- for the last four
11:29:25 years I have served as council's representative on the
11:29:27 Suncoast league board.
11:29:29 And basically, it's the Florida League of Cities local
11:29:34 organization.
11:29:35 That's kind of the Tampa Bay area.
11:29:37 I find it very rewarding.
11:29:39 It's very informative.
11:29:40 You learn a lot from other cities in the bay area.
11:29:43 And they have a meeting about every two or three
11:29:46 months.
11:29:47 So, anyway, I have gotten a little busy and I'm going
11:29:50 to pull off of it.
11:29:52 But I think it would be helpful if perhaps one of the
11:29:54 newer members.
11:29:56 >> When do the meetings occur?
11:29:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: They vary.
11:29:59 Sometimes they are on Saturdays.
11:30:00 Sometimes they are on weekday afternoons.
11:30:05 But they are always fine, informative, usually include
11:30:08 a lunch, and always have an interesting speaker.

11:30:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Can I get two volunteers?
11:30:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll volunteer.
11:30:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Can we have an alternate?
11:30:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Ms. Mulhern, do you want to be the
11:30:26 alternate?
11:30:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern to be the alternate.
11:30:30 >> So moved.
11:30:31 >> Second.
11:30:32 (Motion carried)
11:30:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Sort of in regards to that, last
11:30:37 Friday I attended reality check where 300 elect
11:30:40 officials an community leaders and developers talked
11:30:43 about how this area is going to grow.
11:30:44 It was terrifying.
11:30:45 We have to figure out where 1.5 million more people
11:30:48 are going to fit.
11:30:49 But ultimately there are like 30 groups.
11:30:51 Everybody determines that there needs to be a decent
11:30:54 transit system including light rail.
11:30:56 We need to congregate development where we can support
11:30:59 a transit system and otherwise this area will be
11:31:02 unlivable in the future.

11:31:04 It was really an interesting day.
11:31:05 We are going to get a DVD of it which will be shared
11:31:08 with all the council members so you can watch at your
11:31:10 leisure.
11:31:11 There's some great speakers.
11:31:12 It was really interesting.
11:31:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: By way of additional information I
11:31:17 failed to mention I represent the council on the
11:31:20 transportation task force.
11:31:21 There was a meeting Monday, my first meeting.
11:31:24 And you I sent all of you an information packet from
11:31:30 what I gather.
11:31:33 They took a vote on Monday, voted $500 million to send
11:31:37 to the board of county commission for their approval
11:31:38 to fund transportation for the next five years, the
11:31:42 first phase of that.
11:31:44 And then we start again in June for the second phase
11:31:49 of that additional 1.5 billion dollars of revenue for
11:31:53 transit.
11:31:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
11:32:02 >>> There was money for the east bridge.
11:32:06 Then money for Cross Creek and 40th street.

11:32:10 Was there anything about the Morris Bridge Road of
11:32:13 development going out there where Mobly Homes is going
11:32:19 to donate some land?
11:32:22 >> I have the information.
11:32:26 You should have everything of what's included in the
11:32:30 500 million, the breakdown and everything, and where
11:32:32 the money is going to come from.
11:32:35 >> But it's going to come to a vote now to the county
11:32:37 commission?
11:32:38 >>> Yes.
11:32:38 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Thank you.
11:32:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Does our attorney have anything?
11:32:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I just want to point out for
11:32:44 your benefit and particularly for the benefit of those
11:32:46 people at home that attached to today's agenda under
11:32:51 announcements.
11:32:52 Are all the vacancies that are available for all the
11:32:56 public service volunteer boards available that your
11:33:01 constituents have the opportunity to apply for.
11:33:03 The positions are voluntary.
11:33:05 The deadline for submission to applications is 5 p.m.
11:33:08 on Thursday, June 7th, in the office of the city

11:33:10 clerk.
11:33:11 The clerk's office has put together an excellent list,
11:33:13 and that information is available to the public.
11:33:17 And obviously council's desire is to have the public
11:33:22 be interested in providing service through these
11:33:25 volunteer boards.
11:33:26 And I would just point out for the attention of the
11:33:28 public that a third -- go to the city's web site or
11:33:33 look at the back of the agenda, and look at those
11:33:35 opportunities for service so that council will have
11:33:38 the opportunity to make these appointments come June.
11:33:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk, do you have anything?
11:33:44 >>THE CLERK: In the interim, the applicants that apply
11:33:52 for the position.
11:33:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Will CTTV be scrolling those as
11:34:01 well?
11:34:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Good.
11:34:06 >> Move to receive and file.
11:34:09 >> We now go to our audience portion.
11:34:10 Anyone in the public that wants to speak.
11:34:12 (Meeting recessed until the 5:01 p.m. session.)
11:34:12