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Tampa City Council
Thursday, July 19, 2007
9:00 a.m. session

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[Sounding gavel]
09:01:42 >>Tampa City Council is called to order.
09:01:44 The chair will yield to Mr. John Dingfelder.
09:01:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
09:01:48 It's my honor this morning to invite our good friend
09:01:51 and Reverend Tom Scott.
09:01:53 He's going to give our invocation.

09:01:55 We'll stand for the pledge of allegiance as well.
09:01:57 Thank you.
09:01:58 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Shall we pray?
09:02:03 We acknowledge you in all of our ways and give
09:02:06 direction to our prayer so today, our father, we thank
09:02:08 you for the blessings that have been bestowed upon us.
09:02:11 Thank you for a Lough us to come today to take care of
09:02:17 the business of city government.
09:02:20 We pray that you give us wisdom and knowledge and
09:02:23 insight, but give us patience as we deliberate
09:02:27 together today.
09:02:29 We ask, father, you to bless those who are fighting in
09:02:32 the war, for democracy and freedom, and pray you
09:02:36 protect those that are there protecting us, bring them
09:02:40 back home safely.
09:02:41 Thank you for this day.
09:02:49 Amen.
09:02:49 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:03:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:03:05 >>THE CLERK:
09:03:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:03:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:03:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:03:12 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
09:03:13 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:03:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:03:17 Father Higgins was not here this morning.
09:03:28 Item number 1.
09:03:38 Give him a commendation.
09:03:44 At this time we have the fighter of the month and
09:03:46 Officer of the Month.
09:03:48 Would you do both of them?
09:03:50 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:03:51 Thank you, Madam Chair.
09:04:11 It is always my honor and privilege to come and
09:04:12 present the fighter and the policeman for the month.
09:04:19 Every time I stand here, I'm always reminded of the
09:04:22 fact that these who put their livers on the line every
09:04:27 day for the safety of our community.
09:04:33 As I watched the news this morning and look at those
09:04:35 who go out on the street, the incident that happened
09:04:37 in New York yesterday, reminds us again how important
09:04:40 our fire department, how important law enforcement,
09:04:44 our police are to our community.

09:04:45 So I also noted this morning, talking about the rise
09:04:50 in the violence and the crime and the death of police
09:04:53 officers, because of what had taken place, it's great
09:05:04 that this council has put aside time for those who
09:05:08 protect the community, protect us every day.
09:05:10 With that being said, Madam Chairman, I am going to
09:05:12 ask the chief to come and captain Russell for his out
09:05:25 standing services to the City of Tampa.
09:05:34 >>> Thank you for allowing us to come and recognize
09:05:36 our fighter of the quarter.
09:05:39 And we are recognizing this month someone that
09:05:43 probably most of you know, captain Russell Spicola.
09:05:47 As the fighter of the quarter he's being recognized
09:05:51 for 22 years of distinguished service to the City of
09:05:53 Tampa, unselfishly serving the community and the
09:05:57 citizens, as well as the department, through active
09:06:01 participation in numerous committees, and I am just
09:06:03 going to give you a few of the things that he's been
09:06:05 involved in.
09:06:05 He was the president of the parent club at St.
09:06:08 Lawrence school for two years.
09:06:09 He was a golf coach at academy of the holy names.

09:06:12 For five years he's been a counselor at Camp Hopetake
09:06:18 for children who had severe burn injuries.
09:06:21 For 12 years he served on our awards review board, the
09:06:24 board that actually selects the fighter of the
09:06:26 quarter.
09:06:27 As the chairman of that for three years, he certainly
09:06:30 was ineligible for this award but since he resigned
09:06:36 from that a year ago he is now eligible candidate for
09:06:39 fighter of the quarter.
09:06:40 For six years he was on the firemen's benevolence
09:06:43 association and for two years he served as the
09:06:45 vice-president.
09:06:45 He's been on the Tampa Fire Rescue committee for 12
09:06:49 years.
09:06:49 He was a department representative and coordinator for
09:06:52 the Florida fighter state games and Tampa hosted those
09:06:56 games in 1995 and also in 2001 and he even served as
09:07:00 Santa Claus at the muscular dystrophy association for
09:07:03 the last few holiday seasons.
09:07:06 He was an executive board member for the union, and
09:07:08 also served for four years as the secretary and
09:07:12 treasurer.

09:07:13 And most importantly to me when we began the process
09:07:15 of accreditation and created accreditation officer,
09:07:24 Mr. Spicola was the first one to volunteer.
09:07:29 He's served his family and community and we are proud
09:07:31 for the opportunity to recognize captain Russell
09:07:34 Spicola as fighter of the quarter.
09:07:37 [ Applause ]
09:07:38 Captain Spicola is here with his wife and son, and we
09:07:51 have a plaque from Tampa fire awards presented to
09:07:55 captain Russell spick cola, fighter of the quarter,
09:07:58 third quarter, 2007.
09:07:59 [ Applause ]
09:08:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Captain Spicola, come to the podium.
09:08:14 Why are you standing back?
09:08:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Also we want to present this
09:08:20 commendation from City Council to captain Russell
09:08:24 spick cola in recognition of his years of dedicated
09:08:27 services, selected as fighter of the quarter.
09:08:32 Captain spick cola has distinguished himself through
09:08:34 his unselfish dedication to the community and his
09:08:39 colleagues through his active participation through
09:08:42 various organizations and groups, serving our city

09:08:45 unselfishly for 22 years, the City Council of the City
09:08:47 of Tampa commends you, signed by all seven members of
09:08:50 City Council.
09:08:51 Congratulations.
09:09:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We have other presentations at this
09:09:02 time as well.
09:09:05 >>> Steve Stickley representing Stepps towing.
09:09:08 Russell, I'm very proud to stand here.
09:09:12 On behalf of Jim and Judy Stepp of Stepps towing we
09:09:16 appreciate everything you have done for Tampa Fire
09:09:18 Rescue and the city.
09:09:20 I'm real proud to stand here.
09:09:22 Thank you.
09:09:23 [ Applause ]
09:09:31 >> Florida Aquarium.
09:09:36 On behalf of the Florida Aquarium we are honored to
09:09:40 give you and your family an annual membership, enjoy
09:09:44 it at your leisure.
09:09:47 [ Applause ]
09:09:58 >>STEVE MICHELINI: I don't know how many stories I can
09:10:00 tell about him but he's a great guy from a great
09:10:02 family and he's dedicated himself to Tampa and I'll

09:10:04 tell you that anytime you call on him he's there for
09:10:07 you.
09:10:07 So, Russell, with all due respect, we give you a gift
09:10:11 certificate to Outback steakhouse being presented by
09:10:14 the Hillsborough County towing association, Stepps
09:10:20 towing that just gave you a commendation.
09:10:22 Also on behalf of Liss development and Bern's
09:10:25 steakhouse, we are providing you a $100 gift
09:10:28 certificate so you can go enjoy dinner over there.
09:10:30 And Bryn Allen studios provides the portraits for you
09:10:35 and your family.
09:10:37 Congratulations.
09:10:38 [ Applause ]
09:10:39 >> You're a humble man, a little embarrassed by all of
09:10:49 this.
09:10:51 Always have great things to say about Russell and it
09:10:53 would take probably a half hour, but he's a great man.
09:10:56 And Russell, you know how much we appreciate you.
09:11:00 Here's this watch.
09:11:01 Every time you look at it, let it reflect a smile upon
09:11:05 the many kids that you helped over the years.
09:11:09 [ Applause ]

09:11:25 >> Thank you for all the recognition. This is just a
09:11:27 tip of the iceberg of what we do at Tampa Fire Rescue.
09:11:30 The men and women of this department are heads and
09:11:32 tails above everybody else.
09:11:34 We do it better than anybody.
09:11:35 I can guarantee you that.
09:11:37 I want to thank Chief Jones and his staff from the top
09:11:40 to the bottom.
09:11:44 Everybody that's come out today.
09:11:46 My wife of 30 years, who put up with me for that long.
09:11:51 And my son who I'm very proud of who is now a member
09:11:55 of this department and has a great career ahead of
09:11:58 him.
09:11:58 Thanks again.
09:11:59 I really appreciate it.
09:12:00 [ Applause ]
09:12:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Now we want to recognize the officer
09:12:48 for the month, and I'm going to ask deputy chief
09:12:58 castor to come at this time and read the BIO and
09:13:01 everything.
09:13:02 >> Castor: We may need to get some backups after all
09:13:08 the fighters.

09:13:11 Quite a turnout by them.
09:13:13 Wonderful.
09:13:13 Chief Hogue sends his regrets.
09:13:15 He's mastered a lot of skills, being in two places at
09:13:18 once is not one of them.
09:13:20 His loss today is my gain because I have the distinct
09:13:23 honor of presenting the Officer of the Month, as you
09:13:25 are aware.
09:13:27 Over 1,000 officers, we have 12 officers who get this
09:13:30 distinction each year.
09:13:31 And this month the officer is quite an exception.
09:13:35 It's officer Kenny Knightlinger.
09:13:44 He works on a street level squad that does a lot of
09:13:46 undercover investigation from prostitution all the way
09:13:49 up to armed robbery investigations, pattern crimes,
09:13:52 kind of a jack of all trades.
09:13:55 It's an honor to be on a squad, to be picked for a
09:13:58 squad like that, and officer Knightlinger is heads and
09:14:03 above the officers that serve in a that capacity.
09:14:08 He has quite the knack for catching armed robbers.
09:14:11 We had an armed robbery at a Burger King in north
09:14:13 Tampa along Fowler so officer Knightlinger was doing

09:14:18 surveillance and saw four juveniles on some railroad
09:14:23 tracks, and he noticed that they had pulled out a
09:14:25 pellet gun and they were shooting pellet guns, pellets
09:14:28 at pedestrians.
09:14:29 During the Burger King robbery, the victim had been
09:14:32 shot in the face with a pellet gun.
09:14:34 He got his squad in the area, surrounded these
09:14:38 individuals, placed them under arrest, and ended up
09:14:42 gaining a confession out of both of them.
09:14:45 So that was an out standing apprehension on his part.
09:14:54 In another instance in north Tampa, we had a series of
09:14:57 robberies in an apartment complex.
09:14:59 He saw three individuals driving around quite
09:15:02 suspiciously.
09:15:03 He again got his squad in position, apprehended these
09:15:07 individuals, and after questioning, he confiscated two
09:15:10 firearms and cleared a number of armed robberies
09:15:13 through concession of these individuals as well.
09:15:17 Another one, he had a robbery down at Busch and
09:15:23 30th where an individual was shot in the leg.
09:15:25 Through his interviews and witnesses in the area, he
09:15:28 was able to come up with a lead that led detectives to

09:15:32 the suspect and an arrest was made and two individuals
09:15:35 were charged in that armed robbery as well.
09:15:37 Earlier this month, we had a series of what we call
09:15:41 robberies by sudden snatching.
09:15:43 That is actually a statute, robbery by sudden statute,
09:15:48 by an individual ride bicycles up around people
09:15:50 walking through the park, and he would grab jewelry
09:15:54 off of their neck and flee.
09:15:56 So officer Knightlinger and some of his partners were
09:15:59 out there conducting surveillance, they saw an
09:16:01 individual that matched the description loosely,
09:16:05 stopped him, did a field interview, made up a photo
09:16:07 pack, they made a positive identification, they
09:16:10 arrested the individual, he confessed to two robberies
09:16:14 that night, and when the detectives followed up with
09:16:16 interviews he confessed to six more.
09:16:18 So officer Knightlinger cleared a total of six --
09:16:24 eight robberies during that particular instance.
09:16:26 And then on July 10th, just recently while he was
09:16:29 working prostitution detail along Nebraska Avenue he
09:16:33 noticed some juveniles acting suspiciously in the area
09:16:35 of cycle masters, a cycle shop on Nebraska.

09:16:42 He got his squad in position, ended up arresting four
09:16:45 juveniles and charging them with burglary of the cycle
09:16:48 masters as well.
09:16:49 So you can see that officer Knightlinger is obviously
09:16:52 very active.
09:16:53 He's an out standing officer.
09:16:54 And this isn't an officer that just came on.
09:16:57 It's not from a rookie.
09:17:01 He's been here eight years so he does an out standing
09:17:04 job.
09:17:04 We are very proud of him as the Tampa Police
09:17:06 Department and proud to recognize him as our Officer
09:17:08 of the Month.
09:17:09 [ Applause ]
09:17:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chair, he looks so young.
09:17:24 I thought he was just out of high school.
09:17:26 His wife is here, had a new baby, and we are delighted
09:17:30 to honor him today.
09:17:31 So officer Knightlinger, in recognition of his out
09:17:35 standing service, the City Council wants to present
09:17:39 you with this commendation and this plaque for your
09:17:43 many years of service to protecting the City of Tampa.

09:17:46 So on behalf of City Council, I would like to present
09:17:48 you with this plaque, but also comes with that other
09:17:53 gift, but why I am here, $100 gift certificate from
09:17:58 Charlie's.
09:17:58 So you and your wife can enjoy Charlie's.
09:18:03 If you don't go to Charlie's, I'll go.
09:18:05 [Laughter and applause]
09:18:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Would you come up to the podium?
09:18:16 You're afraid to come to the podium.
09:18:20 >> Congratulations.
09:18:21 On behalf of Bill Currie Ford, we would like to
09:18:24 present with you this watch.
09:18:26 Thank you for all do you to protect our community.
09:18:29 [ Applause ]
09:18:34 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepps towing.
09:18:38 Officer, on behalf of Stepps towing, Jim and Judy
09:18:44 Stepp, we appreciate everything you do out there on
09:18:46 the streets.
09:18:47 We would like to present this statue to you and
09:18:51 congratulate you.
09:18:51 And we also have a gift certificate to Lee Roy Selmon
09:18:57 Expressway.

09:19:03 >> On behalf of the Florida Aquarium we want to
09:19:06 present with you a family of four to the aquarium.
09:19:10 Hopefully you and your family can come out and enjoy
09:19:13 the aquarium at your leisure.
09:19:15 We are very proud of everything you do. Thank you for
09:19:17 keeping our streets safe.
09:19:19 [ Applause ]
09:19:24 >>STEVE MICHELINI: One of the things that the young
09:19:26 officer don't get to do very orphan is go to Bern's.
09:19:30 So we would like to present with you a certificate so
09:19:32 you can enjoy Bern's.
09:19:34 You know, one of the greatest things to do is these
09:19:37 young men and women put their lives on the line for us
09:19:40 every day, and there's only a small way we can say
09:19:43 thank you for that.
09:19:43 And this is a very small token for that dedication
09:19:46 that you provided for us.
09:19:48 The Hillsborough County towing association would like
09:19:50 to provide with you this $50 gift certificate for
09:19:53 Carabbas, Outback, your choice, the Bern's steakhouse
09:20:00 certificate I have spoken to you about.
09:20:01 I hope you enjoy that.

09:20:04 Bryn Allen studios will also provide you and your
09:20:06 family with photographic opportunity to have your
09:20:09 portraits done so you will have that for you and your
09:20:12 new family.
09:20:12 And again, we want to thank you for all of what you
09:20:15 do.
09:20:21 [ Applause ]
09:20:37 >> Thank you.
09:20:40 This is my family, Mandy, my new daughter McKenna, the
09:20:50 boys, captain, major, sergeant, thank you very much.
09:20:53 I appreciate the recognition.
09:20:55 It was a team effort.
09:20:57 I accept this award and all these things on behalf of
09:21:01 my squad.
09:21:03 I couldn't do any of these things without their
09:21:05 assistance, without their assistance.
09:21:09 I appreciate them.
09:21:10 They are a great group of officers to work with.
09:21:12 And sergeant, thank you very much.
09:21:19 I enjoy coming to you to work and with the other
09:21:24 officers.
09:21:25 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

09:21:27 [ Applause ]
09:21:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Make sure you let them know when
09:21:36 they can watch that on replay.
09:21:38 We run these over and over.
09:21:39 >> They'll love that.
09:21:46 I'm sure my squad will take care of that.
09:21:57 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a special guest with us this
09:21:59 morning.
09:22:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Madam Chair, again.
09:22:03 Today I'm delighted to introduce to council DARIUS
09:22:11 Anderson.
09:22:13 He's shadowing me today, a tenth grader, interested in
09:22:16 going into the political area.
09:22:18 So I wanted an opportunity to introduce him and
09:22:24 recognize him.
09:22:25 Thank you, Darius Anderson.
09:22:31 >> We now go to our sign-in sheet.
09:22:35 Julia Cole.
09:22:37 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:22:39 As you may recall, the sign code issue has been in
09:22:43 front of you several times and the last time it was in
09:22:45 front of you, I really didn't have clear direction on

09:22:48 when we wanted to schedule this.
09:22:51 Just for everybody's recollection, the sign code
09:22:55 amendments have gone to the Planning Commission some
09:22:57 time ago.
09:22:57 They are ready to come before you on first reading.
09:23:00 But I wanted, before I schedule that for first
09:23:02 reading, since some of you are new, even though I had
09:23:05 the opportunity to discuss this with you, council
09:23:08 wanted to go ahead and schedule a workshop or go ahead
09:23:10 and get that scheduled on first reading.
09:23:12 I checked your calendar and the calendar is -- I think
09:23:16 you have some time on the calendar August 30th
09:23:18 where we can go ahead and schedule a workshop or go
09:23:20 ahead and schedule first reading and if there's
09:23:22 comment we can go ahead and hear the comment at that
09:23:24 time.
09:23:25 I will make sure to get everybody the latest edition
09:23:29 with a chart explaining it ahead of time.
09:23:33 >>GWEN MILLER: We'll do first reading.
09:23:37 >> Move first reading.
09:23:39 >> Second.
09:23:39 (Motion carried).

09:23:47 >> John McKirchy, city attorney's office, asking
09:23:50 the -- requesting the resolution on item 83 be
09:23:53 substituted, and I filed a copy with the city clerk
09:23:56 with each member of you, and just request that that be
09:23:59 substituted.
09:24:00 >>GWEN MILLER: We'll do it when we get to that.
09:24:03 Mr. Steve Daignault.
09:24:08 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Public works, utility services.
09:24:11 I would like to address item 27 which is the Tampa Bay
09:24:13 water pass-through for just a second.
09:24:16 As you know, we buy water from Tampa Bay water to
09:24:19 augment our water production.
09:24:22 All of the members of Tampa Bay water by buy their
09:24:26 water from Tampa Bay water and pass that cost through.
09:24:29 They show it on their bill as a pass-through.
09:24:32 They buy 100% of their water.
09:24:34 We only buy a portion of our water from Tampa Bay
09:24:36 water.
09:24:36 But we are buying more and more of that water.
09:24:39 What we are proposing is that we show that as a
09:24:42 pass-through on our bill.
09:24:44 Now, it would only be for the times that we do have to

09:24:47 buy Tampa Bay water, and would only be for the
09:24:49 percentage of the total water that we didn't that
09:24:53 would be Tampa Bay water.
09:24:55 As an example, in August, this coming August if it
09:25:02 were put into effect it would be about 25 cents times
09:25:05 the number of CCFs that a customer would use that
09:25:09 would show on their bill as a pass-through.
09:25:11 And I got one chart here to show.
09:25:18 That's a new machine.
09:25:19 >>GWEN MILLER: It's on.
09:25:30 >> If this had been in effect last year for calendar
09:25:33 year 2006 based on the water we had to buy from Tampa
09:25:36 Bay water, and the formula in the ordinance here, in
09:25:40 the resolution, the orange, the purple, rather, up
09:25:45 there represents those times when people would have
09:25:48 had to pay extra, and they would have seen that
09:25:51 pass-through on their bill, and the bar in the middle
09:25:55 shows it would have been about $14.29, that this is a
09:26:00 typical user would have seen over the course of the
09:26:02 year for their water.
09:26:06 I would be glad to answer any questions.
09:26:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?

09:26:10 Anybody else?
09:26:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
09:26:17 Steve, you can leave that up.
09:26:23 Let's say somebody has -- what's a typical residential
09:26:27 bill?
09:26:30 Dollar amount, average customer.
09:26:32 Dollar amount.
09:26:35 >>> About 11.50.
09:26:37 Eleven-something.
09:26:39 >> Let's say for argument sake, nice round number,
09:26:42 $10.
09:26:43 If somebody has had a $10 bill, and you say you are
09:26:46 going to break out the amount that Tampa Bay water
09:26:50 portion, so would that mean that now we are going to
09:26:54 show $9 of city water and $1 as Tampa Bay water?
09:27:00 >>> There will be a line that says "water" on the bill
09:27:03 and then there will be a Tampa Bay pass-through line
09:27:05 on the bill, just like on Hillsborough counties and
09:27:08 all the other member bills.
09:27:10 And it will just show again the proportionate share,
09:27:14 let's say was 20% of our water that we are buying from
09:27:17 Tampa Bay water.

09:27:18 It would be 20% times the difference in the cost times
09:27:21 their CCFs.
09:27:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is this an increase?
09:27:29 Are we doing an increase today in the -- ultimately in
09:27:34 the person's bill that's coming up in the fall when
09:27:37 this is in effect?
09:27:38 Or is this just a change in the billing structure?
09:27:43 >>> This is a change in the billing structure.
09:27:46 In the past, the amounts of water that we bought from
09:27:49 Tampa Bay water have been small amounts.
09:27:52 And we have not had to show that.
09:27:56 We have been able to address that in our rates.
09:27:59 We are now buying more and more amounts of Tampa Bay
09:28:02 water.
09:28:03 It is still a direct cost to us, and that is all that
09:28:06 we are doing, is recapturing that direct cost.
09:28:11 >> But at the end of the day it's an increase in the
09:28:13 rate to our customers because we have to pass it
09:28:17 through.
09:28:21 >>> It is an increase if you want to consider it that
09:28:23 because the Tampa Bay water cost to produce water and
09:28:26 the cost that we pay to buy that water is more than

09:28:30 the city cost to produce it.
09:28:34 >> Right.
09:28:35 Okay.
09:28:35 I have a couple more.
09:28:39 I know I kicked this dead horse a couple months ago
09:28:42 but I have to kick it again a little bit.
09:28:44 Just because it's related.
09:28:48 The last time you were up in front of us, we were
09:28:50 talking about this, we had discussion about the
09:28:54 non-city residents who are on our system, okay, and
09:28:57 it's approximately 200,000 customers, thereabouts.
09:29:03 And the point I made at that time, and the question
09:29:07 that I keep asking is, can we at least study the
09:29:11 possibility that a decade from now we might divest
09:29:16 ourselves of some or all of those non-city residents?
09:29:20 And it's come back to me in many different directions
09:29:23 that the water department, the utility department and
09:29:25 the administration as a whole is not interested in
09:29:29 that.
09:29:29 Is that still the administration and utility
09:29:32 department's position on that issue?
09:29:35 That we are not interested in that divestiture that I

09:29:41 have been talking about for awhile?
09:29:43 >> I believe the legal folks looked into that
09:29:45 agreement and said it is at least ten years out before
09:29:48 it can be renegotiated so I'm not sure there would be
09:29:51 any advantage to looking at it at this time.
09:29:52 Again that's where we are at the moment.
09:29:53 >> Okay.
09:29:56 Because I have been told even more directly at a
09:29:59 higher level that the administration is not interested
09:30:01 in studying this.
09:30:03 Have you heard anything different?
09:30:05 >> We have not.
09:30:06 And again, that's what I conveyed last time I was
09:30:10 here.
09:30:10 >> Madam Chair, the only reason I'm getting into this,
09:30:13 I didn't know if we should wait till we do 27.
09:30:16 I was going to pull 27.
09:30:17 I'll just wrap up now.
09:30:19 I can't support this hike today.
09:30:22 The reason I can't support it is just for that reason.
09:30:25 I think that it's inherent that we have to explore all
09:30:31 opportunities, okay?

09:30:33 On the minimum flows, you're exploring lots of other
09:30:37 issues.
09:30:37 How do we get, you know, water from here to here?
09:30:41 How do we save water?
09:30:42 How do we conserve water?
09:30:44 You're doing a great job, and you're looking at five
09:30:46 or six different alternatives, okay?
09:30:49 But this is a huge alternative opportunity for the
09:30:53 city.
09:30:54 We have a contract with the county that expires in a
09:30:57 dozen or so years.
09:30:58 So there is at least a theoretical opportunity to
09:31:02 divest ourselves of those customers, or at least to
09:31:06 have that discussion, or at least to have engineers
09:31:08 look at it, and economists look at to the see what are
09:31:13 the possibilities.
09:31:13 Because those customers represent a very thirsty group
09:31:16 of people that are pulling out of the river, that are
09:31:19 pulling out of our system, and there's a direct
09:31:22 connection between that and what we are doing today.
09:31:24 Because if when didn't have those customers pulling
09:31:26 out of our system, we wouldn't have to be buying any

09:31:29 Tampa Bay water.
09:31:31 That's true.
09:31:32 I mean, that's just a fact.
09:31:33 If we didn't have those customers pulling off of that
09:31:37 system, we wouldn't have to be buying Tampa Bay water,
09:31:41 therefore we wouldn't have to be having a rate hike.
09:31:44 I know we have to have a rate hike because we have to
09:31:47 pass that through.
09:31:47 But I think that we need to explore all possibilities.
09:31:50 And until we are exploring all possibilities, I don't
09:31:52 think it's responsible of this city and this council
09:31:55 to move forward with this rate hike.
09:32:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
09:32:03 I have a counterpoint.
09:32:04 That was the point.
09:32:05 This is the counterpoint.
09:32:07 If we do what we just said, and you stand alone on the
09:32:13 island, ground by yourself, you aren't going to have
09:32:18 any water to drink.
09:32:19 I said two things opposite of each other.
09:32:24 Although they don't make sense that's the reality.
09:32:28 When we joined Tampa Bay water in the late '90s we

09:32:31 knew what the long-term consequences were.
09:32:33 Maybe in the short term we look like we are not doing
09:32:37 the right thing, but we are.
09:32:39 Sooner or later, in the years to come, maybe 25, 30
09:32:42 years from now, it may not be a Tampa city water
09:32:46 department, because of different constraints and laws
09:32:48 and different things that are happening in the
09:32:50 environment, and so forth and so on.
09:32:53 I can say this.
09:32:56 We budgeted, if I recall when I first got elected $1.5
09:33:00 million that was already in the budget to buy water
09:33:02 from Tampa Bay water.
09:33:03 It's now getting to the point of $10 million.
09:33:05 So who is going to pay that $8 million?
09:33:09 Or $8.5 million?
09:33:11 All of us have to pay that $8.5 million.
09:33:14 What is the fairest and most ethical way of doing
09:33:16 things?
09:33:18 The way it was just presented to us.
09:33:20 In fact, I looked at it the first time and I had to
09:33:22 take it to a fifth grader to understand what A times B
09:33:25 times C meant.

09:33:26 And I finally figured it out.
09:33:29 But what I'm saying is, it is incumbent upon us to do
09:33:33 the necessary things to facilitate the customers, not
09:33:37 only in the city but of the whole system, at the
09:33:41 lowest, fairest, most productive, best water quality
09:33:45 available in the area.
09:33:47 Even at the end.
09:33:48 And this is only the beginning.
09:33:50 At the end it was explained to us, in the year 2008,
09:33:54 if I recall the pie chart that was presented.
09:33:56 We are going to be lower then than most customers are
09:34:03 now.
09:34:03 So I have to compliment the administration and those
09:34:06 who have come up and worked from that plan and made
09:34:11 that possible for us to understand and to logically
09:34:15 realize that what we are doing today is the most
09:34:20 compassionate, realistic, and we have to act. For
09:34:25 many years, we have been what we call the viewers of
09:34:31 water.
09:34:32 In other words, all of us in this system have been
09:34:34 viewed by others that we have been taking care of
09:34:38 ourselves at a very low rate.

09:34:40 Even SWFWMD, which has said in the past that Tampa has
09:34:44 done a greatest on the second page in the first
09:34:47 paragraph that I recall in the letter that was written
09:34:49 about a month ago, where it stated that, in those
09:34:53 areas we have done a great job in getting the lowest
09:34:56 possible water rate in the area, should be revised and
09:34:59 looked at.
09:35:00 That's a subtle statement of saying, you better
09:35:03 realize what the future is.
09:35:05 And for us to not do that would be contrary to the
09:35:09 best possible things that can happen to rate payers.
09:35:14 This is not an increase in water rates.
09:35:16 It is an increase in the cost of water, which is a
09:35:19 difference.
09:35:19 When you buy something and then you have to supplement
09:35:23 that something with somebody else's product, they are
09:35:27 not going to be as kind to you and I as we are to
09:35:31 ourselves.
09:35:31 And that's what this argument is solely about.
09:35:34 It's not an argument, it's a fact, that we have to do
09:35:37 these things today to preserve the quality and the
09:35:40 integrity of the City of Tampa water department.

09:35:44 Thank you, Madam Chair.
09:35:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Miranda, and Mr.
09:35:52 Dingfelder.
09:35:52 Let me just say, then going back to this, thank you,
09:35:56 Mr. Daignault, for what you are doing.
09:35:58 We had a briefing on this in the course of this week.
09:36:00 I appreciate that briefing.
09:36:01 It was very enlightening.
09:36:03 My point is about the customers that we are serving
09:36:07 out in the county, and approximately 250,000
09:36:11 customers.
09:36:12 They are not free loading, they are not -- it's not
09:36:18 that we are giving them the water free.
09:36:19 In fact, they are paying more than the city residents
09:36:22 are paying.
09:36:22 So we are actually, actually making a little bit more
09:36:27 money if you want to use that terminology.
09:36:29 Maybe not because we got to raise it.
09:36:30 But we have an interlocal agreement.
09:36:34 The only way -- not only an interlocal agreement but
09:36:38 going back last year when we came to the city when we
09:36:40 came over to the city, the city could not afford to

09:36:46 rebuild the infrastructure, and all of that, the
09:36:51 county put up $6.7 million to redo that.
09:36:56 Now, you know and I know that the county is investing
09:37:02 money in the City of Tampa.
09:37:05 The days of standing by ourselves are gone.
09:37:09 We must lift up regional, must look at the whole
09:37:15 county, especially -- we talk about budget cuts.
09:37:17 We got to find ways how we can shift services, how we
09:37:20 can work together, so that it's economical for all of
09:37:23 our residents and citizens.
09:37:25 So to me, the option, diverting ourselves is not an
09:37:36 option.
09:37:37 It is not something that you can consider.
09:37:39 These are citizens of Hillsborough County, Florida,
09:37:42 with the City of Tampa is a part of.
09:37:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I make one last response?
09:37:52 I've said this before and I think it's important to
09:37:54 remember.
09:37:55 I believe in regionalism.
09:37:57 I believe in being good and fair to everybody in this
09:38:01 entire area.
09:38:02 However, at the end of the day, we are elected by the

09:38:05 city residents, and it's our fiduciary responsibility,
09:38:09 it's our obligation to do the best for our city
09:38:13 residents.
09:38:13 I also believe in contracts.
09:38:15 There is no way that I'm saying we wouldn't honor our
09:38:18 contract.
09:38:18 We have a contract with the county to do this for X
09:38:21 number of years, and we would continue that all the
09:38:24 way through the end of the contract.
09:38:26 Okay.
09:38:26 But, at the same time, you know, we are providing
09:38:29 water service.
09:38:30 We don't go out there to those parts of the county and
09:38:32 do code enforcement.
09:38:33 We don't provide police service.
09:38:35 We don't provide fire.
09:38:36 Why should we provide water when it's to the detriment
09:38:39 of our city residents that we do so?
09:38:42 Okay?
09:38:42 And I'm talking about a dozen years from now.
09:38:46 All I'm saying is if we study this, if we look at
09:38:49 this.

09:38:50 Okay, for some reason, we have blinders on.
09:38:52 We don't want to do. This we study everything else.
09:38:54 We don't want to study it.
09:38:56 Okay.
09:38:56 I'm not advocating, Charlie, that we remove ourselves
09:38:59 from Tampa Bay water.
09:39:00 We entered into that contract and that's a forever
09:39:02 agreement and I'm good with that.
09:39:04 Linda, I believe this potentially, 10, 12 years from
09:39:08 now, can take some pressure off the river
09:39:10 environmentally because if we can remove some of those
09:39:13 customers from drawing on the river then we can say,
09:39:15 look, Tampa Bay water and county, you have to figure
09:39:17 out how those customers, plus the new people in those
09:39:20 service areas are going to get their water, to take
09:39:23 pressure off the river.
09:39:24 I think there's a lot of good reasons to study it.
09:39:27 And I'm not a big advocate for studying and
09:39:30 consultants, but I think in this case it's warranted,
09:39:33 it justifies it, and I'm saying this on behalf of the
09:39:36 City of Tampa residents and nobody else.
09:39:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Daignault.

09:39:43 We will get to it when we go through it.
09:39:45 Mr. Pardo.
09:39:48 >>VINCE PARDO: Ybor City Development Corporation.
09:39:52 Agenda item number 72, I ask it be pulled from the
09:39:55 agenda.
09:39:55 This is the renewal of contract for services in Ybor
09:40:00 1, services in Ybor 2, district a.m.back bass doors
09:40:03 and pressure washing program.
09:40:06 >> For X number of weeks?
09:40:08 Bring it back?
09:40:09 >>VINCE PARDO: Bring it back.
09:40:11 There's an inverted index code which put the wrong
09:40:13 amount of money in the wrong budget and have to bring
09:40:16 it back to you.
09:40:20 >> Move that for two weeks.
09:40:22 >>> Number 72.
09:40:25 >>GWEN MILLER: You got that?
09:40:26 Pull number 72.
09:40:28 We have a motion and second.
09:40:29 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
09:40:30 Opposed, Nay.
09:40:31 (Motion carried).

09:40:32 Thank you.
09:40:34 Mr. Rolando Santiago.
09:40:38 >>ROLANDO SANTIAGO: Good morning.
09:40:40 I'm here on agenda item.
09:40:42 This is actually just a courtesy heads up to you of an
09:40:46 item that's coming up next week.
09:40:47 Last year the Florida legislature passed a provision
09:40:50 in chapter 166 that requires the city, all cities and
09:40:56 counties, to provide an inventory list of available
09:40:59 affordable housing.
09:41:00 That inventory list has been prepared.
09:41:03 The legislature did not require that we notice the
09:41:06 public.
09:41:06 However, it's going to be coming to you next week at
09:41:09 your public hearing.
09:41:10 We wanted to give you that heads up one week in
09:41:12 advance, above and beyond what the legislature
09:41:15 requires.
09:41:16 Of course anybody viewing on the television, they are
09:41:18 going to be aware that this matter will be coming
09:41:20 before you.
09:41:20 It is nothing more than just a courtesy heads up.

09:41:22 I have a copy of the resolution that will come to you
09:41:24 through your normal standards.
09:41:25 That's really the only reason we are here and wanted
09:41:28 to give you that advance notice.
09:41:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:41:32 We now go to approval of the agenda.
09:41:35 Are there any items you need to pull?
09:41:43 >>> Good morning.
09:41:43 This is not an agenda item.
09:41:45 We would like to have you reschedule zoning case 07-52
09:41:49 located at 7179 North Armenia Avenue.
09:41:53 >>GWEN MILLER: What number is that?
09:41:55 >>> From July 26th to August 23rd.
09:42:00 >> Is that on the agenda?
09:42:02 >>> Not on the agenda.
09:42:02 It's a request to renotice and reschedule this public
09:42:05 hearing.
09:42:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:42:08 (Motion carried)
09:42:13 Are there any items we need to pull?
09:42:16 We need a motion to approve the agenda.
09:42:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 61, I believe, for discussion.

09:42:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Under building and zoning, Mr. Caetano.
09:42:27 Any other items?
09:42:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Items 20 and 27.
09:42:33 >>GWEN MILLER: 20 and 27?
09:42:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 27 --
09:42:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I want a separate vote.
09:42:42 Just pull those as a separate vote.
09:42:44 Then item 20 for quick discussion.
09:42:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other items?
09:42:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Question.
09:42:51 Of the items that have been pulled from the consent
09:42:53 docket, do you wish those to follow the staff reports
09:42:55 under unfinished business or do you wish to take them
09:42:58 up at the time of the consent docket?
09:43:01 >>GWEN MILLER: When we get to them.
09:43:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The second question is, do you wish
09:43:05 to have staff members present for discussion on those
09:43:07 items?
09:43:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you want staff to come over?
09:43:15 61 need staff on 61.
09:43:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you very much.
09:43:18 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: On item 50 under finance, can I

09:43:22 get some backup material on the expense for that risk
09:43:26 management bid?
09:43:30 Do you have any backup material?
09:43:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I spoke to administration on that.
09:43:36 Why don't we pull it and let them come and explain it?
09:43:39 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Okay.
09:43:40 >>GWEN MILLER: We need a staff person for item 50.
09:43:45 Mr. Santiago.
09:43:46 >>ROLANDO SANTIAGO: A housekeeping matter.
09:43:49 I was just advice by the clerk to be sure it gets
09:43:52 placed as a public hearing and in fact you make your
09:43:54 motion today asking that particular item when it comes
09:43:56 up on the agenda be set as a public hearing.
09:43:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
09:44:00 >> Second.
09:44:01 (Motion carried).
09:44:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other items need to be pulled?
09:44:06 Okay.
09:44:06 Need a motion to approve the agenda.
09:44:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
09:44:11 >> Second.
09:44:11 (Motion carried).

09:44:11 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to item number 4.
09:44:26 >>> Jan McLean, assistant city attorney, here before
09:44:28 you this morning on agenda item number 4, which was
09:44:31 originally scheduled to be a presentation on the
09:44:33 minimum flows and levels.
09:44:35 I have provided to you at the earliest part of this
09:44:38 week memorandum stating the position of the city
09:44:41 attorney's office.
09:44:42 I just wanted to go through some points with you.
09:44:45 As you know, the city and Southwest Florida Water
09:44:47 Management District have been working very diligently
09:44:51 over the past year trying to follow a recovery
09:44:56 strategy.
09:44:56 In May and June of this past year, in this past month,
09:45:01 SWFWMD issued proposed agency action and a final
09:45:05 agency action, to slightly change the proposed age
09:45:11 action issuing water use permit to Tampa Bay water.
09:45:15 Tampa Bay water's permit originally asked for a
09:45:19 20-year duration and some other items.
09:45:22 But the final agency action indicated that the permit
09:45:26 would have a three-year duration, and that there was a
09:45:30 de facto water reservation to be used in the MSL water

09:45:34 recovery strategy.
09:45:35 The Tampa Bay water board subsequently authorized its
09:45:38 staff to file a petition under chapter 120, an
09:45:38 administrative hearing, opposing that final agency
09:45:44 action from SWFMD.
09:45:45 But they also told their staff to request an abeyance
09:45:49 of that proceeding to enter into discussions to
09:45:51 resolve the issue and reach a settlement.
09:45:55 The City of Tampa has also filed such a petition under
09:45:58 chapter 120 to preserve its rights and to be a party
09:46:02 during the settlement negotiation.
09:46:04 I have copies of both petitions in the attachments,
09:46:08 that are quite voluminous, and I'll make sure you each
09:46:11 get a copy for your review.
09:46:13 But at this point in time, because we are in active
09:46:17 litigation, we have two files.
09:46:20 Under council's own procedures of rule 4-J does not
09:46:23 allow discussion of issues of litigation in which the
09:46:25 city is a party.
09:46:28 All presenters that were to be here today were advised
09:46:31 earlier in the week so they were not inconvenienced.
09:46:39 We will be directly and personally updating you on the

09:46:42 ongoing suits and as prevents -- events transpire we
09:46:49 will ask to schedule a closed-door session in which
09:46:52 the council can have discussions regarding the ongoing
09:46:57 settlement negotiation.
09:46:59 I just wanted to make sure that everybody received
09:47:01 their memo regarding this, and I will make sure that
09:47:03 you get the document.
09:47:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you for showing up this
09:47:08 morning and sharing this with us.
09:47:10 I'm really eager for you to schedule this meeting.
09:47:13 I think it's very important for council to be
09:47:16 collectively briefed on this and to have a shade
09:47:20 meeting, because ultimately any contracts will be
09:47:24 coming before us.
09:47:25 I feel there is a role for council to play in these
09:47:27 conversations, and I look forward to them being
09:47:30 ultimately in the sunshine.
09:47:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
09:47:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A couple of questions.
09:47:37 Jan, you have been through this and it gets a little
09:47:42 confusing to us.
09:47:43 The bottom line is in terms of minimum flows, we

09:47:48 figured out a way to put forth a solution that it
09:47:52 appeared that the district was okay with, and.
09:47:56 Does that pretty much sum up what happened?
09:47:59 >> She don't want to talk about it.
09:48:00 >>GWEN MILLER: This is litigation.
09:48:01 We can't discuss it.
09:48:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm just trying to figure out what
09:48:05 happened, not --
09:48:07 >>> Let me describe that.
09:48:07 We were in negotiations on the recovery strategy.
09:48:09 But the city would have the obligation to implement,
09:48:14 in the final agency action for Tampa Bay water's
09:48:17 permit, there was a portion of the permit that is
09:48:21 intricately involved in the rove strategy.
09:48:23 Therefore, tying those two issues together.
09:48:27 We now find ourselves in the midst of the challenge,
09:48:33 of a Tampa Bay water permit, which we would not
09:48:36 heretofore have been a party to but because of the
09:48:39 recovery strategy, with the permit, that's why we
09:48:43 can't talk about it before you today.
09:48:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm just trying to figure out what
09:48:48 happened and who voted, and not litigation, and I'm

09:48:51 very cognizant of litigation.
09:48:55 Tampa Bay water members voted to challenge the
09:49:00 proposed recovery solution, or the minimum flows that
09:49:06 we were headed toward, right?
09:49:11 >>> They voted to challenge the proposed agency action
09:49:13 and final agency action which would issue their
09:49:17 permits.
09:49:18 And in the permits, there were issues that resolved
09:49:23 around the recovery strategy.
09:49:26 They are challenging their permit.
09:49:28 They also authorized in that same meeting -- this may
09:49:33 be what you are referring to -- authorized staff at
09:49:37 the appropriate time, and if necessary, to file a
09:49:41 challenge to recovery strategy.
09:49:43 But those time frames are not right.
09:49:46 >> Did the City of Tampa representative vote on this
09:49:49 issue of the challenge?
09:49:52 >>> For the permit?
09:49:54 >> The challenge that you said TBW voted to direct our
09:49:58 agency to go forward with.
09:50:00 >>> Yes.
09:50:02 I believe the -- yes.

09:50:04 >> What was the City of Tampa vote on that?
09:50:06 >>> We opposed it.
09:50:09 >> And the other question I had relates to the shade
09:50:13 meeting.
09:50:14 The last time we discussed this, there was a motion, I
09:50:19 read it not too long ago, a motion that directed legal
09:50:21 to research whether or not we should or could have a
09:50:24 shade meeting.
09:50:25 Now, it was different at that time because there
09:50:27 wasn't actual litigation.
09:50:28 So now we are in actual litigation.
09:50:30 You tell us we can't talk about it.
09:50:32 So are we scheduling a shade meeting?
09:50:35 >>> We will be coming back, and there is -- the scope
09:50:39 of a closed door session is that we would talk about
09:50:42 primarily two bodies of information, and that's with
09:50:47 regard to settlement issues and budgetary matters.
09:50:53 We just filed a petition, and we haven't filed our
09:50:56 motion to a bait the proceedings to be able to enter
09:50:58 into the settlement negotiations.
09:51:00 We wouldn't necessarily have anything to bring to you
09:51:02 in that closed door session regarding the settlement

09:51:05 issue.
09:51:05 And so in not-too-distant future, maybe just a couple
09:51:10 of weeks, I'll be back in front of you or asking to
09:51:13 schedule such a session.
09:51:14 >> I think it important, just one more, I think it
09:51:18 important -- and I'll speak perhaps for another
09:51:20 council member -- that maybe we have more than one
09:51:25 shade meeting.
09:51:25 Maybe we have a shade meeting that tells us where we
09:51:28 think this is headed, so we can give counsel input on
09:51:34 that issue, and then, in addition, ultimately we can
09:51:39 have another shade meeting in terms of, you know,
09:51:41 perhaps agreeing to ratify any proposed settlement.
09:51:44 I think that there's a concern on council's part that
09:51:48 if you wait too long till the negotiations are all
09:51:51 over with, and then we just have one shade meeting,
09:51:53 say this is the city's position, then council wouldn't
09:51:55 have a realistic ability to give input into that
09:51:58 process.
09:52:01 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
09:52:02 We are getting into an area that we are talking about
09:52:04 a separation of powers issue.

09:52:05 The administration has the sole discretion on how to
09:52:08 negotiate something like this.
09:52:10 Then it will come back to you, if a settlement is
09:52:12 reached and the amount of money involved.
09:52:14 Then you have your opportunity to say, we don't like
09:52:17 this deal, or we want to see these changes.
09:52:20 But the negotiation has to be done under our form of
09:52:23 government by the administration and not by the
09:52:25 legislative body.
09:52:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But at the same time, Sal, with all
09:52:28 due respect --
09:52:29 >>> I understand that, but.
09:52:33 >> I understand at the end of the day that's how it
09:52:35 works but it doesn't mean we can't meet with our
09:52:37 lawyer, who I think you are one of, including Mr.
09:52:40 Smith and Ms. McLean, we can't meet with you in a
09:52:44 shade meeting to discuss where this is headed, where
09:52:47 it's going and to give our input, now, perhaps through
09:52:49 the legal department to say we agree or we disagree
09:52:53 with this, because it could save a lot of headaches
09:52:57 down the road.
09:52:58 >>SAL TERRITO: If I understand the nature of a shade

09:53:01 meeting it doesn't get into those kinds of issues.
09:53:03 I think more than likely what will happen is you will
09:53:05 be briefed individually by the legal department on
09:53:07 what happening, rather than as a collegial body.
09:53:10 I think the shade meetings are somewhat limited on
09:53:12 what you can do in a shade meeting as dealing with
09:53:15 settlement.
09:53:16 We can't start using shade meetings to have
09:53:18 discussions with City Council, because that's not
09:53:20 what's contemplated by the legislation.
09:53:22 But that's not to say you are not going to be
09:53:25 informed.
09:53:25 I think it will probably happen on a one-to-one basis
09:53:28 rather than as a collegial body.
09:53:30 And you will get the same information that will be one
09:53:31 to one.
09:53:32 Normally you are not going to go in a shade meeting
09:53:34 because there's concern by the legislature that shade
09:53:37 meetings start being used to bypass sunshine issues,
09:53:40 and that's not what we are talk about, and I'm sure
09:53:43 that's not what you are saying either.
09:53:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern?

09:53:47 >>MARY MULHERN: What I have to say, let's finish this
09:53:52 topic and then --
09:53:54 >>SAL TERRITO: A matter of which form is used.
09:53:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to be very clear.
09:54:02 I believe that City Council as a legislative body has
09:54:05 a distinct role in setting city policy about the
09:54:09 Hillsborough River.
09:54:10 I want to save money.
09:54:11 I want to not drag things out.
09:54:14 The City of Tampa has been in a lawsuit for six years
09:54:20 from the friends of the river, because we were not
09:54:23 allowing minimum flows.
09:54:24 Six years, you guys.
09:54:27 >>> We are getting --
09:54:28 >> Excuse me.
09:54:29 >>> Ma'am, I don't think you want to discuss that.
09:54:31 >> I am talking historically.
09:54:32 And this is my meeting as a legislator.
09:54:35 I believe that we have a role in this.
09:54:38 By allowing us to speak individually, we are not
09:54:41 hearing what our colleagues on council have to say.
09:54:45 We are a policy setting board.

09:54:48 We will approve contracts, and I think this is not --
09:54:53 I don't think that you are allowing council to do its
09:54:56 job properly.
09:54:58 I deeply resent the idea that there isn't an
09:55:01 opportunity for us to talk as a council.
09:55:04 I'm happy to do it in shade.
09:55:06 But we need to be allowed to do it.
09:55:08 I expect you all to come back with a date, perhaps
09:55:11 toward the end of August, where we can discuss this.
09:55:13 And in the interim, I would like to ask the City
09:55:21 Council attorney to see what opportunities a
09:55:25 legislative body has to develop policy issues, because
09:55:27 I feel that minimum flows are policy issues.
09:55:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, first of all, I want you to
09:55:39 know that as a matter of policy, I do agree with the
09:55:45 legal department assessment, this is clearly a matter
09:55:49 of litigation.
09:55:50 It is also my recommendation that it not be discussed
09:55:53 publicly.
09:55:53 I should also point out that Mr. Smith is not present
09:55:57 here today, the city attorney, to opine as to his
09:56:02 office's position in representing him in their

09:56:06 absence.
09:56:06 Excuse me, hear it out.
09:56:11 >>SAL TERRITO: By statute only the city attorney can
09:56:14 call for the shade meeting.
09:56:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: So with all due respect, I have the
09:56:17 opportunity with Mrs. McLean and Mr. Smith to discuss
09:56:21 this at length the other evening.
09:56:22 And I believe that it is everybody's opinion that City
09:56:26 Council does have a role to play.
09:56:31 The question is a matter of timing, and the question
09:56:34 is a matter of the role to play of City Council,
09:56:39 understanding City Council's position, I think
09:56:40 everybody is clear with regard to settlement regarding
09:56:45 expenses that might be involved with whatever
09:56:47 settlement solutions are required.
09:56:50 My suggestion, council, is if you wish to do -- to
09:56:58 allow the legal department to discuss this with Mr.
09:57:02 Smith based on council's discussion today, and if you
09:57:06 wish to have it put on a subsequent meeting either
09:57:09 next week or two weeks, to have further discussion
09:57:12 about it, I believe council's position is very clear.
09:57:16 Under our charter with the separation of powers.

09:57:19 I understand this is a charter issue, but also that it
09:57:24 goes beyond that with regard to what council's role
09:57:28 is.
09:57:28 The long and the short of it, what I am saying is
09:57:30 because of Mr. Smith's absence, I would ask for an
09:57:33 opportunity for me to be able to work with him over
09:57:35 the next week and come back to council and ask him to
09:57:38 come back with his determination with, no disrespect
09:57:44 to Mr. Territo or Mrs. McLean, because their position,
09:57:49 I do support that, but I believe allow me to continue
09:57:54 my dialogue with Mr. Smith, fully articulating
09:57:58 council's position and allow us to come back with a
09:58:00 solution that's acceptable to council.
09:58:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby, we are going to take your
09:58:04 advice, we are going to let you work with the city
09:58:06 attorney and come back to us and move on to the next
09:58:10 item.
09:58:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: this is about something different:
09:58:15 >>MARY MULHERN: I have a question.
09:58:20 Ms. McLean, this is just asking you for an estimate,
09:58:24 because the most disturbing thing in here is that it's
09:58:27 continued indefinitely, and as Linda said, we have

09:58:29 been in this kind of limbo for six years.
09:58:32 So I'm just wondering what your estimate, or maybe Mr.
09:58:35 Territo has a better idea of how long it will take to
09:58:39 arrive at a settlement.
09:58:46 >> I don't think you can discuss that.
09:58:49 >>> I have no idea when we would arrive at a
09:58:51 settlement but it was the intention, and as Mr. Shelby
09:58:54 indicated, we had the meeting the other night with
09:58:56 regard to coming first briefing you individually, to
09:58:58 bring you up to speed, and the intention was to come,
09:59:07 as Mr. Territo mentioned, the statute is quite clear
09:59:10 on the procedure on the closed door session, so we
09:59:13 would come to you and request a closed door session.
09:59:15 It is our intention to come to you and do that.
09:59:18 With regard to scheduling, the parties have not filed
09:59:24 their motion to a bait.
09:59:25 We have to go through those procedures.
09:59:26 So if I could come back within the scope of the
09:59:29 statute and have the discussions that would be allowed
09:59:31 in a closed door session.
09:59:33 So I'm sorry, that's not a direct question.
09:59:35 I don't know.

09:59:36 I would think that over the next six weeks, the latest
09:59:41 we would have something to report back to you, and if
09:59:43 a request is made, you will hear back from us.
09:59:52 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is about Pasco County landfill
09:59:54 site.
09:59:54 >>GWEN MILLER: You're ahead of yourself.
09:59:58 That's why we are going to move on.
09:59:59 Thank you for coming before us.
10:00:01 We'll wait for you to come back to us.
10:00:03 Now we go to item number 5.
10:00:12 >>> Jan McLean: I have provided you with a brief
10:00:14 report giving you an update on that.
10:00:16 My intention was also to have the letter that the
10:00:19 mayor has indicated in the report that we will be
10:00:21 sending to the Florida department of environmental
10:00:23 protection highlighting our concerns regarding that
10:00:28 project.
10:00:30 It is waiting to be signed.
10:00:31 I do have a copy with me, so it will not be changed,
10:00:34 but I do not have one that's signed, and I can provide
10:00:37 you that signed copy most likely later today.
10:00:42 Would you like me to go over the report or to answer

10:00:45 any questions?
10:00:46 >>GWEN MILLER: You have a question.
10:00:48 Mrs. Saul-Sena.
10:00:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:00:50 We had originally asked you to provide a report on
10:00:52 this on February 15th.
10:00:58 And at the time, I felt that you didn't really dig in.
10:01:03 And I'm so pleased that now six months later the
10:01:05 administration has taken an interest and a position on
10:01:08 this.
10:01:09 And I wonder if you have any suggestions on how to
10:01:13 best get you all to pay attention to environmental
10:01:17 issues that council brings to you.
10:01:24 >>> We respond to council as requested, and we
10:01:27 certainly would take that direction.
10:01:30 Six months ago in February when I first did the
10:01:32 review, there was very little in the file to go on,
10:01:34 even though the application is quite voluminous.
10:01:37 Since that time, there's been significant activity
10:01:41 between the applicant and the department of
10:01:43 environmental protection.
10:01:44 The public meeting was held in May.

10:01:46 I think it was actually back in front of you in May
10:01:49 right after the public meeting.
10:01:53 In addition, I had discovered that there was a third
10:01:57 application that was filed around the same time as the
10:02:01 two solid waste permits.
10:02:03 So additional information has come to light with
10:02:05 regard to this issue.
10:02:06 And to any other issues, we would respond as council
10:02:11 directs.
10:02:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just want to share with the
10:02:14 council members who have come to council since
10:02:16 February that sometimes we request action on
10:02:20 something, and it isn't until the public gets involved
10:02:25 that the administration really grabs hold.
10:02:27 So perhaps a better way for us to do this in the
10:02:29 future is get the public to go directly to them.
10:02:32 I don't know.
10:02:32 I just appreciate that you are doing something now,
10:02:34 and I'm glad that we are part of it.
10:02:37 The Hillsborough River is our drinking source, and
10:02:39 putting a solid waste site adjacent to it is not, I
10:02:43 don't think, well thought through, and I hope Pasco

10:02:45 County pays attention to us.
10:02:47 Thank you.
10:02:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Jan, what's the next critical date?
10:02:53 I see you are supposed to provide us quarterly
10:02:55 reports, that assumedly would be three months from
10:02:58 now.
10:02:59 Are there any other critical dates between now and
10:03:02 three months from now?
10:03:03 >>> At this moment in time, when I spoke to the public
10:03:06 information officer on Monday, they were waiting for a
10:03:10 response, request for additional information, waiting
10:03:15 for a response from the applicant on a request.
10:03:18 That's usually given a 30 to 60-day time frame and it
10:03:22 was imminent when they would be receiving this.
10:03:25 Then the department is allowed to have an additional
10:03:27 30 days to review the response, which may generate yet
10:03:31 another round of questions.
10:03:32 The public information officer indicated to me that
10:03:35 they did not anticipate axe action anytime soon.
10:03:38 And as you can see in my report, they said that no
10:03:41 agency action would be taken before public hearing
10:03:43 would be held.

10:03:43 >> So why don't we leave it at the quarterly reports?
10:03:48 But if somebody happens we need to hear about before
10:03:50 that you will come back to us, right?
10:03:52 >>> Yes, sir.
10:03:53 >>MARY MULHERN: My question, is it the state DEP
10:03:57 that's going to make the decision whether B whether
10:04:00 they can --
10:04:02 >>> There's actually two separate venues.
10:04:05 Where they have applied for conditional use, change
10:04:07 with Pasco County.
10:04:09 So that has to be approved as well.
10:04:11 And then there's the three permits, solid waste
10:04:14 permits for construction, and environmental resource
10:04:18 permits.
10:04:18 Those will be acted upon by the DEP, department of
10:04:24 environmental protection.
10:04:26 >>MARY MULHERN: So that's who we can work with?
10:04:30 >> Yes.
10:04:30 And we did, as I indicated earlier, we are one of the
10:04:32 parties to receive notices.
10:04:33 And I'm in touch with them to be reviewing the file.
10:04:37 >> So if we want the public to get involved, that

10:04:44 would be the best Avenue, is to communicate with those
10:04:47 T state department of environmental protection.
10:04:52 >> That would be the best way.
10:04:53 There's quite a lot of activity going on up in Pasco
10:04:56 County.
10:04:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:04:58 We now go to item number 6.
10:05:11 >>ROY LAMOTTE: Transportation manager.
10:05:13 Back in April, I spoke to the legal department and
10:05:16 transportation department to review a county program,
10:05:19 and that was set up for senior zones, and you asked
10:05:23 about whether an ordinance was required.
10:05:26 I believe our legal department did send a
10:05:31 communication dated June 22nd and suggested that
10:05:33 an ordinance wasn't required, but you may choose to
10:05:37 adopt one, because it sets forth the criteria that
10:05:40 would be used and also provide an option if it was
10:05:46 necessary.
10:05:46 The reason I say that is because not every area truly
10:05:51 wants them.
10:05:52 Here in the City of Tampa we have 45 assisted living
10:05:55 facilities located within the city limits, and we have

10:05:58 eight nursing homes also located within the limits.
10:06:01 They vary in size.
10:06:03 27 of them are located, I should say, at the assisted
10:06:06 living centers, around collectors and arterial
10:06:09 roadways, and I believe that's probably where your
10:06:12 primary concerns fall.
10:06:14 Again, the project that was decided upon by the county
10:06:17 is an experimental project, and it is the first in the
10:06:21 country.
10:06:21 We expect FDOT to have a decision on this next month.
10:06:24 They have not concluded whether the results of such a
10:06:27 program are fruitful but they are certainly attracted
10:06:31 to many of the facilities that are out there today.
10:06:34 And we take consideration and protection of our
10:06:37 seniors as one of our priorities in transportation.
10:06:40 As you know, we are concerned about pedestrians as
10:06:42 well as vehicles.
10:06:43 But in this case, our seniors are very important to
10:06:46 us.
10:06:47 We have compiled a list of all our living facilities.
10:06:51 We have looked at how the process functions, and the
10:06:55 county's proposal and their plan.

10:06:57 And I must stress the significance of having a roadway
10:07:01 safety audit before implementing different facilities.
10:07:05 They also used a safety workshop where they go out and
10:07:09 meet with the community, they meet with the
10:07:10 stakeholders, they look at the safety issues, and they
10:07:13 get down to the facts of what each individual location
10:07:17 has, as being their, I should say, problems with the
10:07:24 corridor that is applied.
10:07:26 Again, it's a formal report.
10:07:30 In this case it would be submitted to you, if you
10:07:33 choose to use such an option.
10:07:34 And the cost for such a program costs about $34,000 on
10:07:38 average.
10:07:39 It includes signing, marking, beacons. The real
10:07:44 concern is the speed zone within a speed zone, and
10:07:47 that's what's really being stud.
10:07:51 Studied at this time.
10:07:52 Since we don't have a budget appropriated for this
10:07:54 program at this time, if you look at such a program
10:07:56 over a year's time, they see the fruits of the program
10:08:00 and see if it brings about the results that you are
10:08:02 hoping to achieve.

10:08:03 Again, the program they have put in place, they were
10:08:06 looking at 46 facilities.
10:08:07 It's going to cost in the magnitude of $2.4 million.
10:08:11 Here you have a smaller program.
10:08:13 But at the same time, it's your pleasure.
10:08:17 Again, we have done the research.
10:08:18 We understand how it goes.
10:08:19 But again, you need funding, and this is a tough year
10:08:23 as we all know.
10:08:24 I'll take any questions about their program.
10:08:27 And anything else you have to say about it.
10:08:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, Mr. LaMotte.
10:08:33 We appreciate that.
10:08:34 Item number 7 we need to make a motion to continue to
10:08:36 July 26.
10:08:37 >> So moved.
10:08:38 >> Second.
10:08:38 (Motion carried).
10:08:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 8.
10:08:42 We need to receive and file the written report.
10:08:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:08:46 >> Second.

10:08:46 (Motion carried).
10:08:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 9.
10:08:48 Mr. Steve Daignault.
10:08:57 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: We submitted a report as requested
10:08:58 on that one as well.
10:08:59 I hope you all received that.
10:09:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Need a motion to receive and file it.
10:09:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:09:06 >> Second.
10:09:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Daignault?
10:09:10 I know that there are people in the audience who were
10:09:12 here to speak on this.
10:09:13 So I would request that you stay until the public
10:09:18 comment section so you are able to hear their
10:09:20 comments.
10:09:21 Thank you.
10:09:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 10.
10:09:23 Mr. David McCary.
10:09:28 >>> Good morning, City Council.
10:09:29 I'm David McCary, director of solid waste and
10:09:32 environmental program.
10:09:34 As you recall, we are moving forward on our green.

10:09:41 Today we will discuss air quality.
10:09:43 We have our public works director to lead the
10:09:49 discussion.
10:09:55 >>> Good morning.
10:09:55 I want to provide you a brief update particularly from
10:09:59 the perspective of the -- I'll describe to you --
10:10:16 These three issues, we believe, help to demonstrate
10:10:19 the city's commitment to helping create a
10:10:22 sustainability community.
10:10:24 First the use of alternative use of city vehicles.
10:10:28 We realize a large percentage include an employee
10:10:33 getting in a vehicle, taking delivery of hybrid Ford
10:10:38 Escapes next month which will compare maintenance
10:10:44 activities.
10:10:45 We expect about a 25% reduction in emissions from the
10:10:48 implementation of these hybrids with a total savings
10:10:52 for these vehicles of between 3 and $4,000 in
10:10:55 gasoline.
10:10:59 Now, we standardize our diesel vehicle fleet to burn
10:11:04 sulfur diesel, which burns about 90% cleaner than
10:11:07 regular diesel fuel.
10:11:09 We are also putting together a pilot project to

10:11:11 further test the use of B-20 which is a mixture of 80%
10:11:17 ultra low sulfur diesel and 20% bio diesel which is
10:11:23 essentially vegetable oil.
10:11:25 At full implementation of a program like this our
10:11:27 fleet could reduce potentially 172,000-gallons of
10:11:31 diesel fuel annually.
10:11:34 We are also exploring the use of E-10, a mixture of
10:11:37 10% ethanol with regular unleaded gasoline, and of
10:11:41 course the benefit here would be the fact that our
10:11:44 gasoline possibly for modification.
10:11:49 We are also working to reduce electricity usage and
10:11:52 subsequently decrease the greenhouse gas emission from
10:11:55 the power plant, which generates electricity, by
10:11:59 converting where technically feasible, the air
10:12:02 conditioning system from water cooled systems to air
10:12:09 cooled systems.
10:12:10 The savings in electricity, water, and chemical use to
10:12:14 treat the cooling water for the conversion recently
10:12:19 completed at Tampa Fire Rescue station 1 is estimated
10:12:22 at about $25,000 annually.
10:12:24 And we have yet to factor into this the savings and
10:12:27 maintenance costs.

10:12:29 We are still evaluating the improvements in indoor air
10:12:32 quality from the conversion of our custodial contracts
10:12:35 to a nationally recognized green fuel standard.
10:12:42 This green fuel standard, this is an indoor air
10:12:48 quality improvement initially, and would basically
10:12:54 allow us to negotiate into each one of our contracts
10:12:58 the mandatory use of biodegradable chemicals for
10:13:03 routine facility care.
10:13:07 Here's a picture of the system that's already been
10:13:09 implemented.
10:13:26 With that, any questions.
10:13:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: How many hybrid vehicles are we
10:13:32 going to do as part of this experiment?
10:13:34 >> We'll receive eight.
10:13:35 >> What is the total number of vehicles in our city
10:13:38 fleet?
10:13:38 >>> We have roughly 3,000.
10:13:40 >> Okay.
10:13:40 I think it's great to start off.
10:13:42 I think 8 is a start.
10:13:43 I think 8 out of 3,000 is a minuscule amount.
10:13:46 So what I would be interested in over the next year as

10:13:49 you develop things further and look at the cost, I
10:13:51 believe we replace our vehicles on a seven year cycle.
10:13:55 It's how you intend to increase that percentage amount
10:13:58 as we go through our vehicle replacement program.
10:14:02 Secondly, I think you are doing some terrific things.
10:14:05 I think it's the tip of the iceberg.
10:14:07 And I think that you all need resources to get a real
10:14:11 sensible carbon footprint because right now you are
10:14:14 just sort of picking things here and there.
10:14:16 We need like a big picture.
10:14:18 Where are we?
10:14:19 And then baseline analysis of what our current
10:14:23 practices are, and then we can look at how we can
10:14:25 methodically get somewhere.
10:14:28 I think we are all impressed that our governor has
10:14:30 taken an initiative statewide to go green, and as we
10:14:35 develop our budget this time, I would like to see some
10:14:39 resources put into figuring out how we can do this
10:14:43 analysis and our green future so when we have our
10:14:49 budget presentation I would like to see money in the
10:14:51 budget for this carbon footprint analysis, because I
10:14:54 think that it's money well invested, just like these

10:14:58 hybrid vehicles.
10:14:59 Thanks.
10:14:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Saul-Sena, I think that's
10:15:06 where we are because if we don't know where we are, we
10:15:08 don't know where we are going to head.
10:15:10 One of the things I was wondering about, we see pretty
10:15:13 regularly on our agenda, you know, small trucks, and
10:15:18 in the past when we have asked about small trucks, I
10:15:21 think we have been told that there weren't any, you
10:15:23 know, hybrid and that sort of thing.
10:15:26 We were sort of hooked on the F-150, 250, that sort of
10:15:29 thing.
10:15:30 I realize when you get into the 250s and 350s you
10:15:34 are not going to get into the hybrid but maybe the
10:15:37 small ranger types, 150, is there any indication the
10:15:39 market is going to be offering any types of hybrids
10:15:42 for small trucks?
10:15:46 >>> We have seen evidence that there is interest in
10:15:49 the market.
10:15:49 Unfortunately, the types of vehicle that are available
10:15:52 at this time are high end, and BMW, Toyota, those are
10:16:01 the only two at this point.

10:16:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Maybe with this report that Mrs.
10:16:09 Saul-Sena wants, maybe if we get in touch with Ford,
10:16:11 or Chevy, we can see what where they are headed down
10:16:14 the road in terms of small trucks because I'm sure out
10:16:17 of 3,000 quite a few are the small trucks.
10:16:20 I have seen a lot of them.
10:16:21 I think the best opportunity is probably in our small
10:16:23 vehicles, the code enforcement vehicle, the small cars
10:16:26 that are running around.
10:16:27 I think there's a great opportunity.
10:16:30 >>> We are hoping to get -- one of the challenges as
10:16:36 you mentioned in the resource area, that tax break
10:16:41 that you as a citizen would receive in hybrid
10:16:44 vehicles.
10:16:45 That's something --
10:16:50 >> Is the military going into hybrids at all?
10:16:53 I know you have some experience in that regard.
10:16:55 >>> Yes, they are doing hybrids.
10:17:04 >>> One of the things I wanted to share with you, our
10:17:06 department will actually fund the green effort to
10:17:09 measure our carbon footprint.
10:17:12 I have taken it upon myself.

10:17:14 Also, our department will be looking for grants, as
10:17:19 our community, our culture changes to green in the
10:17:21 city, we are going to be looking for those avenues to
10:17:24 leverage dollars.
10:17:26 So you have to know that.
10:17:27 Also, if you will, keep in mind that when we look at
10:17:30 the ultra low sulfur, diesel and those types of fuels,
10:17:36 that those are also green, that's for sure, where you
10:17:40 may not actually see a full hybrid vehicle come in to
10:17:44 play, but we will also take into consideration those
10:17:46 that we use alternative fuel with.
10:17:48 Once again we are having to work toward our calculated
10:17:51 steps.
10:17:52 And I have to tell you that as an environmentalist I
10:18:00 applaud what you are doing to green our city.
10:18:02 I really do.
10:18:03 I think administration supports that.
10:18:04 We all support it.
10:18:05 And I want used to personally thank you.
10:18:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:18:10 Ms. Mulhern.
10:18:13 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. McCary, we want to thank you for

10:18:15 being the "green" person, at least on the wave front,
10:18:24 and I'm wondering if there's a way that we can help
10:18:28 get some of the policies in place and get some.
10:18:30 Informs by maybe forming a task force or a committee
10:18:33 to study clean energy or any of these things.
10:18:40 So that's something I would like to think about doing.
10:18:44 >> One of the things that you will see when we come
10:18:46 back next quarter will be some of our policy changes,
10:18:51 our purchasing department will be presenting.
10:18:52 Also, we started our own green team within the
10:18:55 department that is currently working on policy to
10:18:57 share with other departments.
10:18:59 So we are not just walking the walk.
10:19:01 We are going to live by example.
10:19:05 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm wondering if we can bring some
10:19:09 outside expertise into it.
10:19:13 >>> Yes.
10:19:13 We are currently working with purchasing to solicit
10:19:15 some professional outside help.
10:19:17 One of the things I would love to see is more of a
10:19:19 regional communication between other counties and
10:19:23 other cities, and we are doing a few things off line

10:19:27 right now, that once we get a little more information
10:19:30 we'll share with you.
10:19:31 But I totally agree.
10:19:32 And, in fact, I'll come back and visit with each of
10:19:35 you, just so that I'm informed as to what you feel are
10:19:38 the green steps that you would like to see our
10:19:42 administration take.
10:19:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, Mr. McCary.
10:19:48 Now we go to item number 11.
10:19:52 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
10:19:54 Back in May the city attorney sent a memoranda round
10:19:57 addressing this issue.
10:19:58 If you want me to, I can give you a Board meeting on
10:20:00 what that is but I'm not sure if you need anything
10:20:02 else.
10:20:02 I think --
10:20:05 >> I think you said not feasible.
10:20:08 >>> The Florida legislature governs in that area and
10:20:10 they don't want to do it.
10:20:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 12.
10:20:14 Mr. LaMotte.
10:20:15 >>MARY MULHERN: I had a question for Mr. Territo.

10:20:19 I actually wondered a couple things.
10:20:21 It looks like this motion was made long before I was
10:20:24 here, but it was asking about occupational license
10:20:28 fees.
10:20:28 >>SAL TERRITO: The legislature changed the term
10:20:33 because it really is a tax.
10:20:36 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm just wondering if you had any
10:20:38 ideas for another way we could try to help incentivize
10:20:42 new business tows stay in business, if there's some
10:20:45 other option for us to try to accomplish the same
10:20:48 thing.
10:20:49 >>SAL TERRITO: I don't know.
10:20:51 We looked at the business tax issue.
10:20:52 That's something for you and the administration to
10:20:55 discuss.
10:20:55 The legislature in this particular area, the
10:20:59 legislature rules on how these are done may be
10:21:01 approaching the Florida legislature and asking them to
10:21:03 change the statute, to grant exemptions in these
10:21:06 cases, to change the way the tax is structured.
10:21:11 That's all I can think of on this particular usual
10:21:13 you.

10:21:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. LaMotte.
10:21:18 >>ROY LAMOTTE: Good morning again.
10:21:21 You asked to speak giving an update regarding the
10:21:23 transportation traffic calming including the passage
10:21:34 down to picnic island.
10:21:35 Earlier you suggested a traffic signal be installed
10:21:38 and that is moving forward.
10:21:43 At commerce and Interbay.
10:21:45 In this year's budget we have selected McCoy as
10:21:48 being an area that needs sidewalks in there.
10:21:50 And we have done $20,000 worth of sidewalk maintenance
10:21:54 in the area.
10:21:55 And we also have a new form of sidewalk.
10:21:58 It's a rubber sidewalk, and a test site, in reviewing
10:22:01 on Commerce, to let you know that's another
10:22:05 alternative to get around areas.
10:22:06 But we plan to use the moneys on the Interbay trust
10:22:10 fund to build a sidewalk on McCoy during the FY 07
10:22:14 and 08 season and we expect construction to start next
10:22:16 April.
10:22:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thanks, Mr. LaMotte, on the update.
10:22:23 Give me two things.

10:22:24 One, make sure Port Tampa neighborhood association
10:22:27 gets a copy of that report so they can update their
10:22:29 community on that.
10:22:30 And number two, and Mrs. Saul-Sena stepped out for a
10:22:34 second, but I think part of her motion specifically
10:22:36 related to getting the pedestrians and bicyclists from
10:22:41 the intersection we were putting in the light, the
10:22:43 light is a wonderful thing, but getting them from
10:22:45 there, the mile or so out to picnic island, in a safe
10:22:49 way.
10:22:52 >>ROY LAMOTTE: We are studying that for a share the
10:22:54 road concept.
10:22:55 Again we have a lot of trucks in this particular area.
10:22:57 I'm not sure where.
10:22:59 >> Do we have any right-of-way there?
10:23:01 >>> Our right-of-way is limited in this particular
10:23:03 area.
10:23:04 But we are looking at how we may be able to use the
10:23:07 existing paved way and pick up a couple of feet.
10:23:11 That's a cost estimate, under study at this time.
10:23:16 >> Do you think it would be reasonable -- you say you
10:23:18 are looking at it -- maybe six months to gets back

10:23:20 with us and tell us how that's looking?
10:23:22 >>ROY LAMOTTE: Absolutely.
10:23:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't we go ahead, in Mrs.
10:23:25 Saul-Sena's absence, I'll ask that you come back six
10:23:28 months from now with an additional update specifically
10:23:30 on the Picnic Island component of that issue.
10:23:33 >>ROY LAMOTTE: Very well.
10:23:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A motion.
10:23:39 (Motion carried).
10:23:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 13 would like to be
10:23:42 continued.
10:23:47 >> So moved.
10:23:47 >> Second.
10:23:47 (Motion carried).
10:23:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 14.
10:23:50 We have a written report to be received and filed.
10:23:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:23:53 >> Second.
10:23:54 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: Historic preservation manager.
10:23:57 We did have a memorandum sent to you.
10:24:00 If you have any questions on that, I'm here to answer
10:24:02 that for you.

10:24:03 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
10:24:04 (Motion carried).
10:24:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
10:24:08 would like to request legislative matters? Anyone
10:24:12 want to request legislative matter?
10:24:14 Reconsideration of legislative matter?
10:24:30 Now we go to public comment.
10:24:32 If anyone would like to speak on a matter not on the
10:24:35 agenda, you may speak now.
10:24:37 >>> Walter Crumbley, president of Courier City
10:24:41 Oscawana neighborhood.
10:24:42 One of the things that I would like for the council to
10:24:44 consider is to amend chapter 27 to provide that
10:24:59 entrances can only be on dedicated streets, not on
10:25:01 alleys.
10:25:02 So some day when you all have something you want to
10:25:05 work on, here's something to sink your teeth in.
10:25:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:25:10 We have something to work on.
10:25:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Madam Chair, this has been an
10:25:13 issue, especially in these neighborhoods like Courier
10:25:16 City, Oscawana, where there's quite a few alleys, and

10:25:21 over the last couple of years, the quads have been
10:25:25 built, these quad units.
10:25:26 Two of the units face on the street, and then enter
10:25:29 from the street.
10:25:30 But then two of the units enter from the alley.
10:25:33 Mr. Crumbly, could you elaborate a little bit as to
10:25:36 what your concerns are in regard to the -- basically,
10:25:39 this would change the code to say we shouldn't be
10:25:42 entering these homes from the alley side.
10:25:45 What is the neighborhood concern?
10:25:49 >>> The neighborhood's concern is, number one, the
10:25:50 alley is usually much, much narrower than dedicated
10:25:54 street, and there's no real parking in an alley, if
10:26:00 people have visitors.
10:26:02 We also got in our particular neighborhood, for
10:26:04 instance, garbage trucks running up and down the
10:26:06 alley.
10:26:07 You got dumpsters, where you look out your front door
10:26:14 and you can see your neighbor's garbage cans for the
10:26:17 dumpster or something like that.
10:26:19 The city also does not maintain the alleys in a
10:26:23 suitable fashion.

10:26:25 A lost them are just shell or dirt and very dusty
10:26:31 conditions and unhealthy.
10:26:32 There's no place for kids to play or anything like
10:26:34 that.
10:26:42 In your front yard.
10:26:43 So these are some of the concerns we have.
10:26:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have heard this concern, Ms. Hull
10:26:49 American attended the neighborhood association and we
10:26:51 did hear these types of comments.
10:26:53 I think it's worth exploring.
10:26:54 And I think I would make a motion to direct staff to
10:26:58 come back to us in, let's say, 60 days, and give us
10:27:03 the pros and cons on this issue.
10:27:07 Why did we change -- I think the code was actually
10:27:10 changed to allow for units to face the alley.
10:27:13 I think we should look at the pros, why do we do it?
10:27:18 I also think that the community should be spoken to,
10:27:23 all the communities, but especially this community
10:27:26 that raised this issue and address their concerns, and
10:27:28 bring all zoning staff should bring all that back to
10:27:32 us for a report in 60 days as to the pros and cons on
10:27:34 the issue.

10:27:35 >>MARY MULHERN: Second.
10:27:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Discussion on the motion.
10:27:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I was involved in approving that
10:27:44 and sometimes you look back and think, that really
10:27:46 wasn't such a good idea the way it played out.
10:27:48 And frankly, I don't think it was such a good idea
10:27:51 based on a lot of feedback I've gotten.
10:27:53 So I think it's great that we are going to be
10:27:55 reexamining this.
10:27:56 And I'm willing to say, you know, maybe I made a
10:27:59 mistake.
10:28:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The motion has been leaning one way
10:28:03 or the other, it's just both sides of this, pros and
10:28:07 cons, staff will report and then speak to it later.
10:28:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I think I speak to the con side.
10:28:17 That didn't sound good, did it?
10:28:20 If we do that we'll double the cost of land.
10:28:22 If we are looking at projects -- and I'm not speaking
10:28:26 directly to the gentleman or his neighborhood, which
10:28:29 I'm sure it's a very noble cause in that one
10:28:34 neighborhood but when you look at affordable housing
10:28:40 East Tampa, the lots are very narrow, and drive

10:28:44 through to park your car in the back, we may be
10:28:49 starting a trend that will diminish some of the
10:28:51 buildable lots, become unaffordable to build on.
10:28:55 So that's another side of it that we have to look at
10:28:58 on the broad spectrum.
10:29:00 I don't know how my vote is going to be if it ever
10:29:05 comes to a vote but I have grave reservations because
10:29:07 of other areas in the city that are flourishing
10:29:10 because you can use the lots in the back to drive in
10:29:13 and out of.
10:29:14 >>GWEN MILLER: You're correct, Mr. Miranda.
10:29:16 We just started to build up East Tampa and West Tampa
10:29:18 and we don't want to stop the growth in these areas.
10:29:21 That's a tough one.
10:29:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think there's a wording issue.
10:29:26 It isn't using the alleys for access, it's using the
10:29:29 alleys for the front door address.
10:29:31 In other words the front of the house is on the alley.
10:29:33 It's not using the alleys for your parking access.
10:29:36 So maybe -- I don't know exactly the wording of Mr.
10:29:41 Dingfelder's motion but we need to be careful about
10:29:43 it.

10:29:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Put it in the record so we know what we
10:29:47 are voting on.
10:29:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And I think I got it muddled.
10:29:52 This is the issue that he was raising, to not allow
10:29:57 the primary entrance to be the alley entrance.
10:30:01 And frankly, let's make sure that zoning staff
10:30:04 includes looking carefully at the affordable housing
10:30:07 issue, and the impact on, you know, on that important
10:30:11 issue.
10:30:12 So we'll get a comprehensive fair and balanced report
10:30:16 from zoning staff in 60 days.
10:30:22 >>> One other thing on item 14, you didn't have any
10:30:25 comment on that, but the neighborhood association is
10:30:28 in favor of a conservation district, and we'll be
10:30:32 working with Mr. Fernandez to that end.
10:30:35 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion on the floor.
10:30:37 All in favor.
10:30:39 (Motion carried).
10:30:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: On number 14, I apologize I wasn't
10:30:43 in the room.
10:30:43 Do we have a time line when they are going to get back
10:30:47 with us?

10:30:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena, we are on public
10:30:52 comments.
10:30:52 Let's wait for that.
10:30:54 Next speaker.
10:30:57 >> I'm Merlin Anderson, 5007, the president of Sunset
10:31:02 Park homeowners association.
10:31:05 And the reason I'm here is Elly Montague and myself
10:31:14 and another member of our association met with chief
10:31:16 of staff, Steve Daignault last week, and I wasn't even
10:31:20 planning to speak necessarily today because we were
10:31:23 told that this is going to get postponed until the
10:31:25 26th.
10:31:27 This presentation on Lake Kipling.
10:31:30 And the other thing, we got this in the mail, I should
10:31:35 say Elly got this in the mail, the basin is going to
10:31:41 be affected by Lake Kipling, this tiny area in our
10:31:44 particular neighborhood, and in fact when we called
10:31:48 the stormwater department last week, they explained to
10:31:50 us that there is this long ditch called that -- that
10:31:56 goes all the way from Dale Mabry which actually drains
10:31:59 into Lake Kipling.
10:32:00 So they want to put together this public meeting next

10:32:03 month, but they are making it look like there's just
10:32:06 this little bitty area that's being affected when in
10:32:09 fact this big area west of Dale Mabry drains into this
10:32:13 lake.
10:32:14 That's one aspect of what is going on right now.
10:32:17 The other thing is that I met with some of you to
10:32:22 discuss this, and the particular Lake Kipling project
10:32:27 is not just one project, it's this urban lake rescue
10:32:32 project which Mr. Daignault has given you the
10:32:35 information on, but it's also there's a $1.3 million
10:32:39 grant that is supposed to really deal with Lake
10:32:43 Kipling.
10:32:44 The rescue project is just going to spot dredge in
10:32:49 front of the stormwater outfalls.
10:32:51 The 1.3 million that's supposed to dredge the lake to
10:32:54 the proper depth so that it can -- to restore it as an
10:33:01 estuary for the fish and other marine life.
10:33:04 So the problem I have on this presentation is that
10:33:11 only giving you one of the projects that affect Lake
10:33:13 Kipling and there's actually two.
10:33:15 So when we are talking about a particular, very
10:33:19 important natural body of water, I as the president of

10:33:24 my association would appreciate if we get a full
10:33:26 coverage of what actually is being done for this lake.
10:33:29 Thank you.
10:33:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:33:37 >>> 14496 north Largo.
10:33:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Wait.
10:33:43 Which item are you speaking on, sir?
10:33:46 >>> Is this only for agenda items?
10:33:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes, sir.
10:33:48 That's it.
10:33:49 Only items on the agenda not set for public hearing.
10:33:52 You have to wait till after the meeting if you have
10:33:54 something off the agenda.
10:33:55 >>> Oh, okay.
10:33:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Next speaker.
10:34:01 >>> Elly Montague, browning Avenue, thank you for
10:34:05 allowing me to speak again.
10:34:06 Now, Lake Kipling is not a lake, it's an estuary.
10:34:09 The $1.3 million is earmarked for the estuaries.
10:34:15 And in the information that I got showing all of the
10:34:20 grants from all over, and different areas, it shows
10:34:26 Tampa $1.3 million and it says for sediment removal

10:34:30 from estuaries of the head waters of the canal, head
10:34:33 waters of the canal.
10:34:34 This is supposed to be for cleaning up these
10:34:37 estuaries.
10:34:38 They are not lakes.
10:34:39 They are called lakes.
10:34:41 They are very important.
10:34:42 They have been going on with me for almost 40 years
10:34:45 now.
10:34:45 We keep evading the issue.
10:34:49 Are you aware that the grant for the urban lakes
10:34:54 grant, they tried to take away and use it as a match
10:34:58 money for the 1.3 to give the match money, make it the
10:35:04 2.3 -- that's totally unfair, and all the other things
10:35:08 are just as unfair.
10:35:09 And, well, anyway, there's so much to say, it's hard
10:35:17 to say in the three minutes.
10:35:18 But we keep being put off and put off and put off.
10:35:21 This is another day of put off, to keep from talking
10:35:25 about it.
10:35:26 And I think it's time we ask the city to do what they
10:35:31 are supposed to do.

10:35:33 And we don't have -- under that urban lakes grant they
10:35:39 are supposed to do a study of the creek that connects
10:35:41 on, and another lake is filled with filtration, I call
10:35:46 the tea pot, and it's filled with filtration, when the
10:35:49 water comes in it goes out into our neighborhoods.
10:35:51 It also goes into the sanitary sewer in the middle of
10:35:54 the street and bubbles all of that out.
10:35:56 And we have dead fish all the time.
10:36:00 We had another dead fish kill.
10:36:02 It isn't the people, it's usually the water
10:36:05 department, the street department, or the construction
10:36:07 people or the Verizon people that are polluting these
10:36:11 waterways.
10:36:12 The other thing is, the city brings under the NTBS
10:36:17 permit all of this, what do they call the area that
10:36:22 flows in?
10:36:23 I'm losing my words this morning.
10:36:25 But, anyway, there's a huge water shed, that's what
10:36:31 I'm trying to say, and by law under the permit the
10:36:34 city should be maintaining these waterways for all of
10:36:37 the flows, the tremendous amount of location flows,
10:36:41 even solid waste truck versus oils that have their

10:36:44 hydraulics broken broke and oil is all over our
10:36:48 neighborhood, not only our neighborhood, others too.
10:36:50 I have been going around taking pictures looking at
10:36:52 it.
10:36:53 It's a constant pollution for the city.
10:36:55 It isn't people.
10:36:55 And I have so much you already heard about, in John
10:36:58 Thomas' letter, and the letter to representative
10:37:03 castor about the statement that our mayor made that
10:37:06 said we are familiar with the $1.2 million request to
10:37:10 be used toward sediment removed from the estuaries at
10:37:14 the waters, man made canals on the west side of the
10:37:17 Interbay peninsula and on Davis Island.
10:37:20 You heard it.
10:37:21 She goes on.
10:37:22 And she says in the original funding request we
10:37:25 identified waters which should be spent on those five
10:37:28 priorities.
10:37:28 It is not right that they do that, legally, morally.
10:37:31 If they want to find a couple of words that say canals
10:37:34 and things they can do it on the canal.
10:37:37 It's not right.

10:37:39 I hope you will address it.
10:37:41 Thank you so much.
10:37:42 It's gone on too long.
10:37:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Next speaker.
10:37:53 >>> Good morning, City Council.
10:37:54 How are you doing this morning?
10:37:57 I have something to hand you, please.
10:37:58 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is this an item on the agenda?
10:38:12 >>> Yes, sir.
10:38:12 Item number 61.
10:38:13 I'm John Fuchoringorine. I'm here on behalf of my
10:38:16 cousin Mr. Erik Ellerbee along with my other cousin,
10:38:19 Mr. John Randolph.
10:38:22 >>GWEN MILLER: Go ahead.
10:38:25 >>> Here with regard to item 61.
10:38:26 The brick home located, formerly Palmio's residence.
10:38:34 I have a pamphlet.
10:38:35 The current bid that my cousin Mr. Eric BILABE
10:38:41 submitted. The three previous bids and how they were
10:38:44 scored, and also a lineage of my family history here
10:38:48 in Tampa in the Ybor City community.
10:38:52 My question is, how it was based this time.

10:39:00 The criteria when the house first came up to bid was
10:39:03 to redevelop the Ybor City community, and if possible
10:39:06 to bring families back to Ybor City.
10:39:08 My family arrived in Ybor City in 1890, and as the
10:39:12 attachment you will see on the back of the pocket
10:39:15 packet, I had 438 members reside in that time frame.
10:39:19 The historical significance of this home is very
10:39:21 important to myself and my family.
10:39:24 Unfortunately my cousin could not be here today
10:39:26 because he could not get time off what was short
10:39:30 notice not knowing it was going to be on the docket
10:39:32 until Monday morning.
10:39:33 My question to City Council, he has submitted equal
10:39:36 bid as in any other bids were submitted this time, in
10:39:40 the amount of $250,000.
10:39:43 And I ask that City Council revisit this bid and award
10:39:47 the house to my cousin and my family as this home has
10:39:51 been a precious thing in our family since it was built
10:39:54 in 1932.
10:39:55 And the historical significance is very proud for my
10:39:58 family to revitalize Ybor City as that's where we are
10:40:02 from.

10:40:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:40:06 Next speaker?
10:40:12 >>> Tom STANG.
10:40:18 I was awarded the blond brick house.
10:40:19 I just want to say my piece, that I already live in
10:40:25 the neighborhood, and I go out and walk a lot, and
10:40:28 quite frankly, this is probably the only house that
10:40:31 would attract in the neighborhood.
10:40:36 I plan to be here a long time.
10:40:37 And just thankful that the real estate department saw
10:40:42 fit to award me the house.
10:40:43 Thank you.
10:40:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:40:45 Next speaker.
10:40:53 >>> 4113 Henderson Boulevard, addressing 27, which is
10:40:58 going to be eventual rate increase in water fees,
10:41:02 which is tied into this.
10:41:06 When I saw City Council a couple weeks ago is they
10:41:08 were also bringing up the issue of reclaimed water
10:41:11 which I think ties into it, which is what I want to
10:41:14 address.
10:41:15 I own one of four nurseries in the State of Florida

10:41:17 that run totally on reclaimed water.
10:41:19 I was number 3.
10:41:21 I'm proud to say that two of those are located in
10:41:23 Hillsborough County.
10:41:24 They both operate on privately-run sewer treatment
10:41:29 plants.
10:41:29 So there are no taxpayer dollars to. This day we have
10:41:33 used 25 million gallons of reclaimed water rather than
10:41:37 having to use public wells, water supply or public
10:41:41 use.
10:41:42 I don't know if you all are aware, but the Star 1 has
10:41:49 flaws in it.
10:41:50 We have nursery business.
10:41:51 We do irrigation.
10:41:52 We probably hooked up 50 people.
10:41:57 Before the rain start add couple of weeks ago, I'm
10:41:59 getting phone calls, my system doesn't work.
10:42:02 I said you need to call the city.
10:42:04 The sprinklers won't even pop out of the ground.
10:42:08 So and part of that, we have a PR problem.
10:42:11 When it first started, they said I was killing my
10:42:15 plants.

10:42:16 Unless you went and looked on an individual basis you
10:42:19 don't really No. the problem is, the city never really
10:42:22 addressed.
10:42:22 It has a bad PR.
10:42:24 People don't want it but that's not the reality of it.
10:42:31 What I think we really need to do -- and Mr. Miranda
10:42:34 brought up, there is no cost incentive either.
10:42:40 Very quickly, we talk about greening.
10:42:42 The one thing in the City of Tampa that everybody uses
10:42:44 is water.
10:42:45 The one thing.
10:42:46 That is the one thing.
10:42:48 So we would be saving our potable water, if this
10:42:52 system was more effective, and we should have been way
10:42:57 beyond -- this is the one thing that everybody needed.
10:43:01 I propose one, that maybe we make a commit, because it
10:43:06 was brought up that the airport would like water. If
10:43:08 we don't make it cost effective people are never going
10:43:11 to sign up.
10:43:12 If this committee had people from an industry, you
10:43:14 know, and there are a lot of religious properties,
10:43:22 synagogues, churches that have large properties, that

10:43:24 everybody irrigated in South Tampa, just where the
10:43:27 program is directed.
10:43:32 None of those things are being addressed.
10:43:34 I think if we had a committee that there are members
10:43:37 on that committee that could help with the water
10:43:38 department, with the public works.
10:43:44 The second and final thing is I think we are saying
10:43:47 sign up when it was cheap.
10:43:49 No.
10:43:52 I discussed it with customers and people and I realize
10:43:57 for some people it would be a financial burden but we
10:43:59 could finance it.
10:44:00 Part of St. Pete now, if five out of ten people wants
10:44:03 reclaimed on their street, you pay up front.
10:44:06 So you pay $1500.
10:44:08 But you only pay $10 every month.
10:44:11 Once it's hooked up.
10:44:12 But my concept is, there are people that are willing
10:44:15 probably to put forward the money to pay for the
10:44:19 infrastructure, so we don't have this great expense up
10:44:22 front.
10:44:24 (Bell sounds).

10:44:25 If it needs to be financed we'll make arrangements.
10:44:28 I wish we would do something to really get the star
10:44:30 program where it really should be.
10:44:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:44:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:44:35 I believe Mr. Daignault about a month, five weeks ago,
10:44:40 maybe some thoughts to the large possible users of the
10:44:45 star program that was called star 2.
10:44:48 There has been some talk about revisiting all the
10:44:51 costs involved, when you compare this district with
10:44:54 other districts like St. Pete.
10:44:57 I believe some of those moneys we were using grant
10:45:00 moneys to get the infrastructure in.
10:45:02 That's why their costs are so low.
10:45:04 And sometimes, they have so many customers there that
10:45:07 the reclaim is not available on a daily basis, if what
10:45:11 I read in the papers in the last couple of years ago,
10:45:19 we are looking at something, and it's not me, it's the
10:45:21 administration of looking at something of reviving and
10:45:23 doing star 2 at a different formula, different rate,
10:45:26 something that has to be acceptable to you use that
10:45:31 product versus potable water, and that should be about

10:45:34 25 to 30% less in that range, maybe a little less.
10:45:37 But these things are necessary.
10:45:39 If you look at the water chart, consumptive daily
10:45:43 uses, on rain days, everyone though you think we have
10:45:47 a lot of water, we don't.
10:45:48 We are still using 9 to 10 million gallons of water on
10:45:52 Tuesdays and Sundays more than other days, because we
10:45:54 use it for lawn irrigation.
10:45:57 And there's nothing wrong with that.
10:45:59 There is something wrong with that when you don't have
10:46:00 the commodity, and that's the availability of the
10:46:04 affordable water to use, and therefore that's what the
10:46:06 administration is working on.
10:46:08 So I'm sure in the next few months it will come up
10:46:11 with a resolution or solution to the problem.
10:46:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else in the public like to
10:46:16 speak?
10:46:19 We go to -- Mr. Dingfelder.
10:46:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think as long as some folks are
10:46:23 here from Sunset Park and we have heard discussion on
10:46:25 that, Mr. Daignault has been kind enough to wait,
10:46:28 Steve, could you take a minute and give us -- you have

10:46:34 given us a written report, but perhaps address some of
10:46:36 the issues that were addressed by the folks over
10:46:38 there?
10:46:40 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Okay.
10:46:42 First of all, there's kind of two issues here.
10:46:46 The urban lake rescue funds are grant funds that we
10:46:52 pursued, the urban lake rescue funds are for three
10:46:57 lakes, Roberta, Edna and Kipling, and they have
10:47:01 limited scope, and availability of funds, but we do
10:47:04 contend to use them to remove some sediment in Kipling
10:47:09 as well as the other lakes, and the presentation to
10:47:14 the community is something that we are doing at each
10:47:17 of these lakes based on the basin that drains into
10:47:21 those particular lakes, provide those people with
10:47:24 information and education about the drainage into the
10:47:28 lakes, and the effect of that drainage.
10:47:32 That's pretty much what that is.
10:47:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Two quick questions.
10:47:39 I'm well familiar with that Palmira ditch.
10:47:43 My recollection is it does seem to flow from Dale
10:47:45 Mabry all the way out to the bay, on the Westshore
10:47:48 side.

10:47:50 Does it flow into Lake Kipling before it goes to the
10:47:52 bay?
10:47:56 And I guess the question is bigger than that, is why
10:47:59 do we define this basin as small as we did as compared
10:48:02 to perhaps going all the way to Dale Mabry?
10:48:07 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Again, we typically have used, in
10:48:11 this and the other lakes, the drainage basin and the
10:48:13 folks directly around the lake.
10:48:16 The basin that drains directly into the lake.
10:48:19 And not all of the canals, or all of the pipes or
10:48:23 tributaries that might drain into the lake.
10:48:25 >> So when we do this, it's for purpose of notice of
10:48:27 meetings and not for purposes of engineering?
10:48:30 >>> That's correct.
10:48:31 >> My second question.
10:48:33 It appears in reading a report that in Lake Kipling
10:48:37 you are just going to be doing the sediments near the
10:48:41 outfalls, but not the middle of the lake.
10:48:45 And I guess I always thought that at some point in
10:48:48 time, you and I talked about, three or four years ago,
10:48:52 talked about how we might be dredge dredging the
10:48:55 entire lake and using that back system and that type

10:49:00 of thing.
10:49:00 >>> Again the urban lake rescue is limited funding.
10:49:03 There's just a limited amount of money that we have
10:49:05 for each of the three lakes.
10:49:06 So we are only able to do so much work.
10:49:09 Again, I don't want to confuse the two projects or
10:49:14 initiatives here.
10:49:15 It's an urban lake rescue.
10:49:16 We have asked for grant money.
10:49:18 We have been granted the grants money for those three
10:49:20 lakes.
10:49:20 Limited amount of money.
10:49:22 Small amount of money.
10:49:23 There's only a limited scope we can use.
10:49:25 Again we think we are moving in the right direction.
10:49:30 >> So right now in this limited scope we are only
10:49:35 going to be dredging near the outfalls?
10:49:39 >>> The outfalls that come is what we are targeting
10:49:43 and the debris in those outfalls, why he.
10:49:46 >> Do we have a price so at least council when you
10:49:48 talk about money, that's what council is about, so at
10:49:50 least we have an idea of what that cost estimate might

10:49:53 be, and maybe we can help find the money?
10:49:59 >>> I can provide you one.
10:50:00 I don't have one today off the top of my head.
10:50:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: There was an August meeting
10:50:05 mentioned.
10:50:06 When is that scheduled?
10:50:09 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: I don't know.
10:50:11 Again I would have to give you that date.
10:50:13 And that is just to talk to the people again relative
10:50:16 to the work that's going to be done by this urban lake
10:50:19 rescue.
10:50:20 That is the purpose of that meeting.
10:50:22 >> And that doesn't have anything to do with the 1.3
10:50:25 million grant that was a result of the --
10:50:29 >>> That's correct.
10:50:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have an idea for the fellow
10:50:32 council members, and that is starting in October, as
10:50:35 per our strategic planning, we said that on the fourth
10:50:39 Friday, or if we are lucky enough to have a fifth
10:50:42 Friday -- Thursday, rather -- we can have more time
10:50:45 for in-depth discussion.
10:50:46 This discussion has been going on over 20 years and I

10:50:49 would say perhaps in November, December, we should set
10:50:51 aside if we have the fourth Friday, Thursday of the
10:50:55 month, for council members to truly get a presentation
10:50:59 by you all about how we are addressing the stormwater
10:51:04 issues and pollution issues and the NEPES, hopefully
10:51:13 we are developing a strategy to begin to address the
10:51:16 problem.
10:51:16 So I think it's going to require a fair amount of
10:51:20 time.
10:51:21 So I think probably a fourth Thursday might be the
10:51:24 time to take it on.
10:51:30 >> If there's an estimate on the dredging you will get
10:51:32 us that?
10:51:36 >>MARY MULHERN: My question, I didn't feel like your
10:51:41 report answered a lot of questions that the
10:51:43 neighborhood had asked.
10:51:44 I can't tell what they are.
10:51:45 Maybe you can present that when we do this meeting.
10:51:49 That Linda suggested.
10:51:50 But the grant that was written of 1.3 million --
10:51:59 >>> It's not the urban lake rescue grant.
10:52:01 That's a separate grant.

10:52:03 That's correct.
10:52:05 >>MARY MULHERN: I thought the $1.3 million grant was
10:52:08 for the estuary.
10:52:12 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: I'm trying to keep the two
10:52:13 separate.
10:52:13 There was a 1.3 federal grant and then there is
10:52:17 another grant for urban lake rescue.
10:52:23 >> The 1.3 million grant they gave us the application
10:52:26 for it.
10:52:29 I believe.
10:52:29 Is that the sediment removal from the estuary that the
10:52:33 head waters of the canals, right?
10:52:35 >>> I'm not sure what you are looking at.
10:52:39 I'm familiar with that other grant, the one that's not
10:52:43 the urban lake.
10:52:45 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
10:52:51 It's from March 2004.
10:52:54 The amount of the request was for 1.2 million.
10:52:59 And it mentions the affected areas, Spring Lake,
10:53:04 Channel Lake, Kipling, Dundee, lagoon --
10:53:08 >> 13 canals, in essence, yes.
10:53:12 >> Okay.

10:53:12 It talks about prioritizing those five, doing those
10:53:17 first, those estuaries.
10:53:21 And what I'm trying to find out is, what is intended?
10:53:25 Is that the $1.2 million or 1.3 million federal grant?
10:53:31 >>> Yes.
10:53:31 >> That we got.
10:53:32 Okay.
10:53:33 So how much of that is earmarked for the estuaries?
10:53:38 And is any of that intended to go for dredging the man
10:53:44 made canals?
10:53:48 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: We made a presentation a little
10:53:50 while back on the canals, and there was a group of
10:53:53 folks interested in doing that.
10:53:54 The funding that you are talking about requires a city
10:53:57 match, so there would be about twice that much money
10:54:00 available.
10:54:04 We plan to dredge those lakes, estuaries, et cetera.
10:54:10 Again, there is another constituency that I don't
10:54:12 think you all have heard from yet regarding the
10:54:16 canals, who are interested in doing canal dredging.
10:54:19 If you are going to do these projects, it makes sense
10:54:22 to do them at the same time, because then the cost per

10:54:26 cubic yard that's dredged goes down significantly.
10:54:29 If you just focus on a few little areas, and you have
10:54:32 to mobilize equipment, expensive equipment, and go
10:54:36 through the permitting process, et cetera, the cost
10:54:39 per cubic yard that is removed is very high.
10:54:42 So the larger the group that you can get, the better
10:54:45 for everyone.
10:54:46 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
10:54:48 I think we all understand that.
10:54:50 Economy of scale.
10:54:51 But the fact seems to me that the money was supposed
10:54:54 to go for dredging these estuaries, and that's what it
10:54:59 was awarded for.
10:55:01 So, you know, we may eventually have more money to
10:55:04 also do the bigger picture, but at this point I don't
10:55:10 understand why we can't move forward and do what we
10:55:14 applied for the grant, and the matching money to do.
10:55:18 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Well, we are in the process of
10:55:21 doing the environmental permit for exactly that.
10:55:25 That has to be done.
10:55:26 It takes about a year to do that environmental.
10:55:32 >> So a year from now the project might get started?

10:55:35 >>> It's possible.
10:55:36 If there's enough funding.
10:55:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:55:42 >>MARY MULHERN: Do I need to second your motion?
10:55:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I looked at the calendar, Madam
10:55:46 Chairman, and I understand from Mr. Shelby that next
10:55:49 Thursday, the results of our strategic planning
10:55:52 workshop will come to us in terms of restructuring our
10:55:55 calendar beginning in October.
10:55:58 The fourth Thursday in October is October 25th.
10:56:01 So I'd like to move that we have an in-depth
10:56:06 conversation about the drainage issues in this area on
10:56:10 October 25th at 9 a.m.
10:56:15 >> Second.
10:56:15 >> We have a motion and second.
10:56:16 (Motion carried).
10:56:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, although we haven't
10:56:20 discussed this yet, do you wish to put a specific time
10:56:22 limit on that from what time to what time?
10:56:25 Or do you wish to have it open ended?
10:56:27 Because there may be other items as time goes by that
10:56:30 you add to it.

10:56:30 >> Just need the dates right now.
10:56:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Now we go to our audience for first
10:56:40 reading.
10:56:41 Item number 15.
10:56:42 Mr. Caetano, would you read that, please?
10:56:46 15.
10:56:50 On the agenda.
10:57:04 Ms. Mulhern, would you read that?
10:57:06 >>MARY MULHERN: I'll read it.
10:57:08 I move an ordinance being presented for first reading
10:57:11 consideration, an ordinance authorizing the
10:57:12 installation and maintenance of encroachments, awning,
10:57:16 columns, and architectural decorative features, over
10:57:19 portions of the public right-of-way known as east
10:57:22 5th Avenue and north 23rd street, as more
10:57:24 particularly described here, subject to certain terms,
10:57:28 covenants, conditions, and agreements as more
10:57:30 particularly described here, providing an effective
10:57:32 date.
10:57:32 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
10:57:35 (Motion carried)
10:57:37 Item 16, Mr. Dingfelder.

10:57:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Since this per since ton my alma
10:57:42 mater, I am pleased to read this for first reading, an
10:57:46 ordinance authorizing the construction and erection of
10:57:49 proposed encroachments, covered walkway with
10:57:51 communication lines by the Hillsborough County school
10:57:53 board for the Roosevelt elementary will classroom
10:57:55 addition project over a portion of the public
10:57:57 right-of-way, a portion of west Tacon street as more
10:58:01 particularly described herein subject to certain
10:58:02 terms, covenants, conditions and agreements as more
10:58:05 particularly described here, providing an effective
10:58:06 date.
10:58:06 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
10:58:09 Question on the motion.
10:58:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe council is providing that
10:58:13 ordinance with minor changes so the substitute.
10:58:17 >> And the title is still correct?
10:58:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe it is.
10:58:20 >> So moved with the substitute.
10:58:21 (Motion carried)
10:58:22 >>GWEN MILLER: Committee reports.
10:58:27 Mr. Scott.

10:58:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I move 17 through 19.
10:58:30 >> Second.
10:58:30 (Motion carried).
10:58:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 20 under parks, recreation,
10:58:36 Mr. Dingfelder, you said you had a question.
10:58:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I had a question.
10:58:40 I was just looking for a separate vote.
10:58:42 This is an item, and I'm really thrilled that we are
10:58:45 going to be landscaping Courtney Campbell causeway so
10:58:48 I want to make that abundantly clear.
10:58:51 But my concern is where we are getting the source of
10:58:54 the funds from.
10:58:57 Basically it looks like, from way read in the back,
10:59:00 $50,000 is coming out of the tree trust fund.
10:59:03 And I have stated my concerns about this, and they are
10:59:08 sort of philosophic concerns.
10:59:09 Generally speaking when developers are building in our
10:59:13 neighborhoods, and they take out a tree, or they can't
10:59:17 put in enough trees, back in, they contribute to the
10:59:21 tree trust fund.
10:59:22 And on several occasions including this occasion, we
10:59:27 are taking what I consider neighborhood money, and we

10:59:30 are putting it out on our highways.
10:59:33 And I guess I would like have been to sort of think
10:59:36 about that philosophically or from a policy
10:59:39 perspective, is that really fair?
10:59:43 You know, it's a pretty straightforward question.
10:59:48 I think we need to landscape the highways and Courtney
10:59:52 Campbell and our other major thoroughfares, we have
10:59:54 done some landscaping in conjunction with the APM,
10:59:58 memorial, and Boy Scout, and Dale Mabry, et cetera,
11:00:01 and we continually used our -- in my opinion our
11:00:05 neighborhood tree fund to fund these improvements.
11:00:08 I have a problem with that.
11:00:09 I can't support it.
11:00:10 I just wanted to bring it up to your attention and see
11:00:13 how you all feel about it.
11:00:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena, parks and recreation,
11:00:17 will you take number 21 separate?
11:00:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes, I will.
11:00:20 I think that's an interesting point you raise, Mr.
11:00:22 Dingfelder.
11:00:23 I personally believe that by putting the money into
11:00:25 trees on major commercial corridors as opposed to

11:00:29 neighborhood corridors, that we actually end up seeing
11:00:32 more people see the trees.
11:00:36 So it is a philosophical question.
11:00:39 But in terms of creating a beautiful tree canopy for
11:00:42 our community, I think we actually get more bang for
11:00:44 the buck on the more public corridors, and Courtney
11:00:47 Campbell is being rebuilt, and we are working real
11:00:50 hard to create a greenway and trail from Pinellas
11:00:54 County to Hillsborough, and I know that greenery that
11:00:58 we use this money to plant will be seen by many
11:01:01 people.
11:01:03 Move item 20.
11:01:05 >> Second.
11:01:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:01:07 (Motion carried).
11:01:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: No.
11:01:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move 21 through 23.
11:01:14 >> Second.
11:01:14 (Motion carried).
11:01:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Public works, Mr. Charlie Miranda.
11:01:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I believe they want to pull 27 for
11:01:21 a separate vote.

11:01:22 Am I correct?
11:01:23 So talk on 27 first if I may.
11:01:25 I want to move the resolution on 27.
11:01:28 >> Second.
11:01:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just if I could.
11:01:32 One other thing that came up a minute ago.
11:01:34 It's really interesting.
11:01:35 I think cooperation is a two-way street, and Mr.
11:01:41 Scott, I'll direct it to you a little bit when you
11:01:43 talked about regionally.
11:01:44 I agree with that 100%.
11:01:46 The other item that we can't talk about, the item
11:01:49 where Tampa Bay water has effectively, you know, said,
11:01:53 challenged what we are trying to do in the river and
11:01:56 in our recovery plan and all that, Tampa Bay water,
11:01:59 the majority of the members voted against it on that
11:02:02 issue.
11:02:03 I don't think it's a two-way street.
11:02:04 I think it's a one-way street.
11:02:07 I think we are cooperating tremendously, we are
11:02:11 providing 200,000 non-city customers with lots of
11:02:14 waters and that's why we ended up with the increased

11:02:16 rate for our city customers and that's why I can't
11:02:18 support it.
11:02:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me speak on that, if I may,
11:02:22 Madam Chairman.
11:02:25 >> It's your committee.
11:02:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you for reminding me.
11:02:28 This is as far from the truth as I ever heard.
11:02:33 When you look at water, and that's one of the
11:02:35 sustainable items we all need, clean air, and
11:02:38 drinkable water, it doesn't have any contaminants in
11:02:42 it.
11:02:42 When you look at these two things and you compare this
11:02:45 item, the Tampa Bay water, which is helping the city
11:02:52 through the drought by supplying us water, and because
11:02:55 their rates have always been higher, why are they
11:02:59 higher?
11:03:00 It's a simple item.
11:03:01 They have had to do underground construction, they had
11:03:05 to create other sources of water other than wells and
11:03:09 surface water, which in surface water you don't have,
11:03:11 in case of when the drought is going on, and now we
11:03:14 are going to blame them for raising the pass-through?

11:03:18 I believe in my mind we should be thanking them for
11:03:23 giving us the water, everyone though it's $2 and
11:03:26 something a unit so all of us can have water to drink.
11:03:30 And if your water bill will go down.
11:03:36 So you can take a bath for 30 minute, it isn't any
11:03:39 different than if you take one for five minutes.
11:03:45 It's a laughing matter but it not.
11:03:47 It's something that we are going to have to change the
11:03:49 way we think, the way we address the situation.
11:03:52 I can't -- Hillsborough County, the City of Tampa to
11:03:57 come in, it doesn't work that way.
11:03:59 We can't even build a fence between two countries.
11:04:02 So what we are saying is that these things have to be
11:04:05 addressed.
11:04:06 They are not for political pursuance.
11:04:08 They are for the reality of all of us.
11:04:10 And we need to move on.
11:04:12 And this is not a cost of Tampa city water rate.
11:04:16 This is a cost of what we had to pay from 1.5 million
11:04:20 to almost 10 million of water that we have had to buy
11:04:27 during this area that nature says that's enough.
11:04:28 On the other side of that, also nothing has been

11:04:31 discussed.
11:04:32 Yes, there's a pass-through when we need it.
11:04:34 But when we don't need it, .25 or a quarter percent
11:04:39 more on the sale of water, when we have ample water
11:04:41 supply, so therefore the calendar is never balanced
11:04:44 out and the public is not being told all the facts.
11:04:46 And the facts are if you measure out the 6 or 7 or 8
11:04:49 months that you are getting the money more than we are
11:04:52 selling to yourself and you look at the other
11:04:54 standard, it would be very, very close to the amount
11:04:56 of money, that we expense out, we have a drought, and
11:05:01 that we make when we have ample water supply.
11:05:05 At times, maybe not this year, that river will have
11:05:08 more than a billion gallons of water going over it.
11:05:11 During the drought, zero.
11:05:15 And those are the things that this city and this
11:05:17 council and this administration is working on to get
11:05:20 the minimum flow levels corrected.
11:05:23 There is litigation on that.
11:05:26 I am not going to speak on minimum flows.
11:05:28 But what I am saying, you have to look at the whole
11:05:31 bushel of apples.

11:05:32 Don't pick one and say this is rotten because the rest
11:05:35 of them are all ready to eat.
11:05:37 Thank you very much.
11:05:37 I move item 27.
11:05:38 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:05:40 (Motion carried).
11:05:44 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder voting no.
11:05:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move item 27 through 32.
11:05:56 24.
11:05:57 24 through 32.
11:05:59 >> Second.
11:05:59 (Motion carried).
11:06:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Finance Committee, Mr. John Dingfelder.
11:06:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move items 33 through 59.
11:06:09 >> Second.
11:06:09 (Motion carried).
11:06:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Building and zoning, item 61.
11:06:15 I see Mrs. Miller here.
11:06:29 >> I don't think we pulled anything.
11:06:46 >>> I'm Cindy Miller, director of growth management
11:06:50 development services.
11:06:51 I'm here on item number 61, which is a real estate

11:06:54 transaction in which we are recommending the award of
11:07:00 the historic blond brick home at 1720 East 15th
11:07:04 Avenue to Mr. Spang.
11:07:07 What I distributed to you today, and I will make
11:07:10 available to -- some documents that are prepared for
11:07:20 me so I would have it available in order to review the
11:07:23 items for this agenda and also to document the process
11:07:26 they utilized.
11:07:27 What I would like to outline first -- and if you look
11:07:30 at the item that just has blond brick house, 1720 East
11:07:34 15th Avenue at the top, it's a stapled page.
11:07:36 The second page of that is a time line that was
11:07:40 prepared the end of June 2007 to talk about the
11:07:43 request for proposal process for this particular
11:07:46 house.
11:07:49 None of us thought that this is one of our more
11:07:52 important structures in the Ybor City area.
11:07:54 And it has been a very valued structure, very valued
11:07:58 home, and business location for decades.
11:08:03 But I wanted to show you the time line so that you
11:08:06 would be able to see that we took as much care and
11:08:10 consideration that we could as we went through a

11:08:13 request for proposal process.
11:08:15 And let me mention three requests for proposal
11:08:18 processes.
11:08:19 The first one goes really as far back as March of
11:08:23 2006.
11:08:24 The person who was in charge of that particular
11:08:26 request for proposal process was my deputy at the
11:08:29 time, Sandy Fidilla so I had to look at some of her
11:08:35 files to get the history today.
11:08:36 We had three offers come in.
11:08:38 As a matter of fact, we were before you for resolution
11:08:42 2006-380 to sell the property.
11:08:45 Unfortunately, that particularly respondent did not go
11:08:49 forward.
11:08:50 We then contacted the second respondent, did not go
11:08:53 forward.
11:08:54 And the third respondent.
11:08:57 We then had various changes in staffing and changes in
11:09:01 looking at the process itself, and earlier this year
11:09:05 we did a second which was advertised in March of 2007.
11:09:13 We advertised both in the Tampa Tribune as well as the
11:09:16 Florida sentinel.

11:09:17 We also make all information available on our web
11:09:20 site.
11:09:22 In that particular request for proposal process, first
11:09:25 let me mention that none of the respondents from the
11:09:28 first process came back to us in 2007.
11:09:32 One reason I think that's important to know and
11:09:34 something I want to check is that the price of the
11:09:36 house that was offered back in 2006 was significantly
11:09:41 more than has been offered in 2007 under either
11:09:43 scenario.
11:09:46 We had questions raised by more than one of the
11:09:52 respondents in the advertisement that occurred in
11:09:56 March 2007 as to what was included in the proposals.
11:10:01 We also then directed the questions to the city
11:10:06 attorney's office.
11:10:07 We felt that basically all three responded in
11:10:09 different ways, some included earnest money, some did
11:10:12 not, there was some question as to some of the
11:10:15 documentation provided by the proposals, so therefore
11:10:19 our city attorney, in advice to us, recommended that
11:10:22 we decline all proposals from that standpoint.
11:10:27 And the proposers were contacted, that we would be

11:10:30 back for another request for proposal process, which
11:10:33 occurred in May 2007 is when it was readvertised
11:10:36 again.
11:10:40 During this time period we received two proposals, one
11:10:44 from Mr. Spang and one from Mr. Ellerbee.
11:10:50 I assigned three members of my staff to review the
11:10:53 proposal.
11:10:53 Mr. Thom Snelling, the deputy director from my
11:10:57 department, Mr. Herb Fechter, the real estate manager,
11:11:02 and Mr. Herb Fernandez, of our historic division.
11:11:07 They independently reviewed and met together to review
11:11:12 their evaluation, both separately and collectively,
11:11:16 they ranked Mr. Spang number one and Mr. Ellerbee's
11:11:21 proposal number 2.
11:11:22 From that standpoint, I also want to point out that
11:11:25 it's not a negative reflection on Mr. Ellerbee.
11:11:29 Both were very good, positive proposals.
11:11:31 They fulfilled the terms from the standpoint of
11:11:33 earnest money submission and other information.
11:11:35 So from that standpoint, my three staff felt confident
11:11:39 in presenting the second document I have for you,
11:11:42 which is the memo prepared and signed by them.

11:11:47 So for item number 61, it is our recommendation to you
11:11:51 as City Council that we award 1720 east 15th
11:11:57 Avenue to Mr. Spang for him to purchase and close on
11:12:02 the property within the next 60 days.
11:12:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
11:12:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chair, the question I have going
11:12:19 back to the -- what I have from Ellerbee from April
11:12:24 10th, 2007, there, and the rank -- and you may
11:12:29 need to restate that.
11:12:30 I'm sewage if this information is correct, the
11:12:33 Ellerbee family, waive is they were ranked number 2,
11:12:38 Mr. Spang was number 3, and evidence evidently that
11:12:46 was a process that was thrown out that we said
11:12:48 earlier.
11:12:50 >>> That's correct.
11:12:50 We believe based upon questions that came from Mr.
11:12:57 Ellerbee in one particular meeting with me as well as
11:12:59 questions from the legal question, this was so much
11:13:02 variation on how the three respondents responded to
11:13:05 our proposal, that our request itself was unclear as
11:13:10 to a number of items.
11:13:12 Very frankly, Mr. Ellerbee, as I recall our

11:13:15 conversation accurately -- and I believe Mr. Rodriguez
11:13:19 was in that meeting, he also questioned the evaluation
11:13:22 criteria itself as well as how earnest money was
11:13:26 handled.
11:13:26 So from that standpoint, we rejected all proposals,
11:13:31 decided to go forward, during the intervening time my
11:13:34 staff and I took another look at the request for
11:13:36 proposal documentation and made numerous revisions to
11:13:39 that in order to address those concerns.
11:13:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: However, if you go back and look at
11:13:44 that process, you look at it, Mr. Spang raised his
11:13:52 offer to counter, to match, the offer that the
11:13:54 Ellerbees made.
11:13:56 If you look go back and look earlier they made a
11:13:58 proposal $229,000.
11:14:00 The Ellerbees have been consistent with 250,000.
11:14:03 So when you look at that, you all know how this works.
11:14:08 If you go out and put a proposal for bid and then you
11:14:12 see what the person was and then you come in lower,
11:14:14 then you go back and raise it to match it.
11:14:16 So that's what happened.
11:14:17 When you look at that.

11:14:19 That's what I'm looking at here now in this document.
11:14:21 So, you know, I'm questioning now how this has been
11:14:28 handled.
11:14:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My question probably is sort of a
11:14:38 broader, bigger picture question and then we can
11:14:41 relate to the this issue.
11:14:42 I'm curious why we mess with an RFP on this property.
11:14:47 And maybe on other properties.
11:14:49 I was talking to chief of staff about another
11:14:51 property, talking about an RFP.
11:14:54 Why aren't we just looking for the high bid?
11:14:58 You know, we can create the terms, okay?
11:15:00 If we want people to make sure that they are going to
11:15:03 buy it and live in it and take good care of it because
11:15:06 it's a historic property, somehow or another we can
11:15:09 create those terms as part of the sale, and I think we
11:15:12 do that.
11:15:12 But why wouldn't we just put it out on the street and
11:15:15 say, give us a high bid.
11:15:17 Then it's just a member.
11:15:19 It's a dollar amount, period, end of story, no fee, no
11:15:23 valleys, no point system or anything else.

11:15:25 That would seem to clear this one up, probably one bid
11:15:31 ago.
11:15:31 So enlighten me.
11:15:34 >>> I would be glad to.
11:15:38 For this particular property and for others that are
11:15:40 part of what I call the FDOT program, it's really the
11:15:47 program that was established under the interstate
11:15:50 historic preservation trust fund program.
11:15:54 Very frankly, Mr. Dingfelder, this precedes my time in
11:15:57 this particular office.
11:15:59 It was determined as policy that, as an example, the
11:16:04 homes that were part of the block which were part of
11:16:07 the same area, those, I believe, were advertised and
11:16:10 sold to the highest bidder.
11:16:14 When it came to certain important structures as
11:16:19 determined by various representatives from folks that
11:16:23 are interested in historic preservation, also working
11:16:26 with FDOT and their consultants, as well as our staff,
11:16:30 it was determined that when it came to certain
11:16:33 structures, this is one of them, and there is about
11:16:35 one or two others.
11:16:36 It was determined that price should not be the only

11:16:40 consideration, that these homes were important to the
11:16:42 history, and Mr. Rodriguez very well mentioned his
11:16:48 family's past history.
11:16:50 This is not a negative reflection from the standpoint
11:16:53 of the years that his family has been dedicated to
11:16:55 Tampa.
11:16:57 But it was where it was determined that other criteria
11:16:59 were going to be as important to the site.
11:17:02 So therefore request for proposal was determined to be
11:17:04 the appropriate action.
11:17:06 This was in consultation with numerous people, I
11:17:09 believe, and I have to ask Mrs. Saul-Sena to help me
11:17:15 with the acronym, but I believe the CRC, which is
11:17:19 looking at the sale of the houses and looking at it
11:17:24 from the historic standpoint, this has been the topic.
11:17:26 That is why we did a request for proposal rather than
11:17:29 strictly looking at the highest bid.
11:17:30 And that's what we have applied consistently with they
11:17:33 homes.
11:17:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
11:17:36 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Ms. Miller, when I met with you
11:17:39 yesterday, you informed me of this, and I didn't have

11:17:41 any of the backup material that I now have.
11:17:44 Looking back to April 10th, as Mr. Dingfelder
11:17:50 said, there is a lot of politics in this, evidently,
11:17:55 and I see that Mr. Ellerbee had put up $250,000 as a
11:18:00 bid, plus he had a $5,000 check, and Mr. Spang was
11:18:07 229,000, and his earnest money attached to the
11:18:12 contract.
11:18:13 What I don't understand, Mr. Ellerbee had 117 points
11:18:18 and Mr. Spang had 86.
11:18:21 And looking at another evaluation, I guess that's the
11:18:24 latest one, in July, how did these points change all
11:18:30 of a sudden?
11:18:31 Were the same questions asked?
11:18:34 >>> Mr. Caetano, no, the same questions were not
11:18:37 exactly asked.
11:18:37 Some of the questions were.
11:18:39 We also ranked them differently.
11:18:40 And politics has been sort of a word that's been
11:18:43 mentioned here.
11:18:45 One thing that I hope I have is a reputation where I
11:18:49 try to make the decisions based upon the best public
11:18:52 service, as well as my own character and ethics.

11:18:58 When I selected the committee to review the proposals,
11:19:00 I selected three individuals that I believed would
11:19:03 come forward with no political agenda, and that is why
11:19:07 I selected the three individuals, Mr. Snelling, Mr.
11:19:11 Fernandez and Mr. Fechter.
11:19:14 So from the standpoint of a political decision, I
11:19:17 would not present this to you if I felt it was
11:19:20 strictly a political decision.
11:19:23 I believe we are coming forward from the standpoint of
11:19:25 what we believe as the staff of my department, as well
11:19:30 as two of my differentiations, that this is the best
11:19:32 recommendation that we have.
11:19:35 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I feel that what Mr. Dingfelder
11:19:37 said, that the highest bidder with specified
11:19:42 requirements should have been attached, and I would
11:19:43 support something like that to the highest bidder.
11:19:47 I mean, I see a drastic change in points from 236 to
11:19:53 341 at the last evaluation, which was sometime in
11:19:58 July, evidently around July 13th.
11:20:01 I would support a motion, put it out to bid and the
11:20:06 highest bidder, if they meet the criteria of the
11:20:08 bidding specifications.

11:20:11 I would support something like that.
11:20:14 >>> Mr. Caetano, may I just mention that from the
11:20:16 standpoint of the last RFP, there were changes.
11:20:19 But a number of the changes that we made in the
11:20:22 evaluation criteria came from Mr. Ellerbee.
11:20:25 They did not come from the other proposers.
11:20:28 When it comes to doing the highest priced -- mentioned
11:20:34 when it comes to the RFP process, each RFP process has
11:20:38 to stand on its own.
11:20:39 We have to treat it as a new day whenever we advertise
11:20:41 a new one.
11:20:42 So, therefore, from that standpoint, again, we believe
11:20:46 that from the process that we have used has been what
11:20:51 has been consistently the recommendation of the
11:20:54 historic preservation community.
11:20:56 It has been what has been the recommendation from
11:20:58 staff.
11:20:59 My concern on this particular building -- and it's a
11:21:03 concern I think that a number of you see with other
11:21:06 structures that are vacant -- we are having almost
11:21:09 daily vandalism of this house.
11:21:12 Even as recent as yesterday, the number of staffs

11:21:18 under her direct responsibility in real estate,
11:21:21 brought a section of fence in because there is now a
11:21:24 section of fence missing.
11:21:25 The air conditioner has been stolen, I believe, twice.
11:21:30 I really do not want to go out for another process.
11:21:33 I believe it is important that we award it, close, and
11:21:38 again this is not a negative reflection on either of
11:21:41 the proposers.
11:21:42 But staff's recommendation is that we award to Mr.
11:21:46 Spang.
11:21:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda?
11:21:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't think, speaking for myself
11:21:55 or any council member, question your integrity or your
11:21:57 sincerity or any one of the three individuals,
11:22:00 Snelling, Fechter and Mr. Fernandez, all three of
11:22:03 them.
11:22:03 I think the process is not there.
11:22:06 I think in the process we have to maybe in the future,
11:22:09 for another project like this, change the way the
11:22:13 business sector is done.
11:22:14 I would like to ask questions of the two individuals,
11:22:17 one representing family member and the other

11:22:20 individual here, because I have been called and given
11:22:24 some information and I want to make sure this is a
11:22:25 fact.
11:22:27 Would you please answer?
11:22:29 >>> Yes, sir, Mr. Miranda.
11:22:30 >> Do you or anyone in your family own a home that was
11:22:33 purchased from the city or any other governmental
11:22:34 agencies in Ybor City?
11:22:36 >>> No, sir.
11:22:38 >> Thank you very much.
11:22:38 Next?
11:22:43 Sir, do you or any one of members of your family own
11:22:46 any home that's been given or bought through a
11:22:48 governmental agency?
11:22:50 >>> Yes.
11:22:52 >> Thank you very much.
11:22:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I appreciate the sincerity of the
11:23:08 answers.
11:23:09 I don't know if we should be in the business when you
11:23:11 buy a house from a governmental agency and buy a house
11:23:13 and sell a house.
11:23:14 We are not in the real estate market per se.

11:23:16 I understand what Mrs. Miller said about losing the
11:23:18 air conditioning but that's not unique.
11:23:20 Not unique in Ybor City, it's not unique in New Tampa
11:23:22 or West Tampa, in South Tampa, in Belmont Heights or
11:23:25 Jackson Heights.
11:23:26 My own daughter when she built a house stole it twice
11:23:32 and that's not unique.
11:23:33 That's in South Tampa.
11:23:34 So that problem there be is not something that we as a
11:23:37 government are unique in.
11:23:40 It happens all the time.
11:23:44 And I don't know what the answer is to solve this
11:23:46 problem.
11:23:47 I certainly feel like somewhat in the areas of Mr.
11:23:51 Dingfelder and Mr. Caetano, and I'm sure the others
11:23:54 are going to speak, we should sell things for the
11:23:56 highest and best possible cost.
11:23:58 Now, we have three individuals here, that we have an
11:24:02 auction in 30 days, I imagine all three of them are
11:24:05 going to show up.
11:24:06 And bid it out.
11:24:07 And whoever wins.

11:24:09 They are not going to tear that Dow house down. They
11:24:12 can't.
11:24:13 Number one.
11:24:13 Number two, what's going to happen?
11:24:16 Who is going to live there?
11:24:17 I really don't care who lives there.
11:24:18 I don't care if you rent it out.
11:24:21 I don't care if you move in yourself.
11:24:23 Why do I say that?
11:24:25 Because if you rent it out, it's going to be about
11:24:27 $2,000 a month.
11:24:36 I couldn't pay $2,000 a month if I got elected here
11:24:39 twice.
11:24:40 So what I'm saying is, these are the things we are
11:24:42 facing.
11:24:43 We are trying to be so correct that we lost the sight
11:24:46 of reality, I think in, my judgment.
11:24:48 And these things should be bidded out to the highest
11:24:50 bidder, whoever wins, God bless 'em, it's your
11:24:54 responsibility, it's your insurance, you got to pay
11:24:55 any back taxes, I would imagine.
11:24:57 Let's me give you a little advice.

11:24:59 You better check all those items I just checked about.
11:25:02 You're responsible, if I read that contract briefly,
11:25:07 back taxes, any judgments on that house.
11:25:09 Do your due diligence by the time that sale comes if
11:25:13 it's not accepted today.
11:25:15 Thank you.
11:25:15 >>MARY MULHERN: Ms. Miller, I think my question is
11:25:18 probably for you.
11:25:19 And if you go back to your time line, I'm trying to
11:25:25 figure out that middle bid.
11:25:34 It says all three proposals were declined due to
11:25:38 inconsistencies.
11:25:39 You said there were some complaints about that.
11:25:41 But what was the reason that you threw out the whole
11:25:44 process?
11:25:46 >>> When it comes to any bid or request for proposal
11:25:48 process that the city enters into, we always reserve
11:25:52 the right to reject all proposals or all bids.
11:25:58 That's something the city always retains both as an
11:26:00 administration as well as the city as a whole.
11:26:02 For the items that were the types of inconsistencies
11:26:05 that are mentioned in the time line, we believe that

11:26:10 when it came to the clarity of what was to be
11:26:13 submitted with the proposals, that that was an
11:26:17 important consideration, because we got different
11:26:18 answers.
11:26:19 And let me give you the example.
11:26:21 One thing that we found that we learned from, the
11:26:23 first time we solicited proposals in 2006, is that no
11:26:27 one had any money on the table during that
11:26:30 transaction, no earnest money was required of the
11:26:32 proposal.
11:26:33 Of the proposers at that time.
11:26:37 Therefore someone could submit a proposal, not have
11:26:39 their financing completely put together, and have no
11:26:43 interest in it from a financial standpoint.
11:26:45 It's just like when you put a bid on a house in a
11:26:48 normal real estate transaction that we may enter into
11:26:51 to buy a knew home, outside of the government, we
11:26:54 normally provide earnest money through a real estate
11:26:57 agent or broker in order to solidify that deal.
11:27:00 In order to show that we have an active financial
11:27:03 interest.
11:27:03 We did not do that in 2006.

11:27:07 That is something that when we then did the first
11:27:09 request for proposal, it was unclear as to when
11:27:13 earnest money was going to be required.
11:27:17 Some submitted earnest money.
11:27:18 Some did not.
11:27:19 We also had concerns raised by Mr. Ellerbee as one
11:27:24 party, and also in our review when we reviewed it as
11:27:28 to the evaluation and dry criteria. And the points.
11:27:32 So from that standpoint we said, okay, there's
11:27:34 questions as to earnest money, there's questions as to
11:27:36 evaluation criteria, so therefore we rejected,
11:27:40 declined to go forward with that particular process.
11:27:42 That's why we did it.
11:27:43 >> So all three of those offers were on the table that
11:27:45 you decided just to revisit the --
11:27:48 >>> That's correct.
11:27:48 We felt it was too unclear.
11:27:50 I consulted with the city attorney, in order to --
11:27:53 took legal advice, and his recommendation was to
11:27:57 reject all three.
11:28:01 >>MARY MULHERN: I have to agree with everyone else who
11:28:05 has spoken so far, that if we had gone in as you said

11:28:09 in a normal real estate process, where you make a bid
11:28:13 and you would have asked for earnest money, and we
11:28:16 would have given to the highest bidder, it seems like
11:28:20 you wouldn't have any of these problems.
11:28:22 >>> In this particular request for proposal process,
11:28:25 folks submitted earnest money and they both proposed
11:28:27 exactly the same.
11:28:30 >>MARY MULHERN: One thing you could have gone back and
11:28:32 just, you know, with those proposals, those offers,
11:28:36 you could have just said we need the earnest money and
11:28:38 then reconsidered it.
11:28:39 >>> We did not believe that because this had been a
11:28:42 publicly offered request for proposal that we could go
11:28:46 back and change the rules midstream.
11:28:48 We had to be able to identify what came in with the
11:28:52 proposals.
11:28:52 That's why we sought legal counsel in order to
11:28:55 determine whether we should go forward or not.
11:28:57 And with that advice we decided to not go forward.
11:29:00 We think that that would have been a greater legal
11:29:02 problem than doing any other type of negotiation.
11:29:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The good news, everybody, is that

11:29:10 the money, some of this is going to go into this
11:29:13 revolving preservation trust fund.
11:29:15 When FDOT originally came up with the money to move
11:29:17 these houses, the City of Tampa got a really sweet
11:29:20 deal.
11:29:20 They paid for the moving, they paid for the rehab, and
11:29:23 we get the profits from the sale to go into this
11:29:26 resolving trust fund.
11:29:29 When they low balled it unusually they thought they
11:29:32 would get $100,000 and because historic houses are not
11:29:35 seen as attractive we are getting a lot more.
11:29:38 It costs over $250,000 to move this house.
11:29:41 So it was a really complicated deal.
11:29:43 I don't know if you all remember it.
11:29:45 But it was very complicated.
11:29:48 So whoever gets it is getting a really terrific deal,
11:29:51 and I would like to see the greatest amount of money
11:29:55 derived from the sale, because then it goes into this,
11:29:58 you know, preservation trust fund, and so I like what
11:30:02 I've heard up here.
11:30:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, Madam Chairman, first all,
11:30:07 again, I think councilman Miranda said it best, we are

11:30:11 not questioning your integrity.
11:30:12 That's not the question at all.
11:30:14 >> Not at all.
11:30:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And the question of the process.
11:30:18 But be that as it may, a couple things that's very
11:30:21 important.
11:30:22 One is, from my previous experience as an elected
11:30:29 offerings it is a recommendation from staff, is that
11:30:30 right? It is a ranking, and council does not have to
11:30:34 go either way.
11:30:34 So you don't have to accept staff recommendation.
11:30:37 That's number one.
11:30:38 That's our authority, if I got that right, as a
11:30:43 council.
11:30:43 It's in our hands.
11:30:44 Secondly, it is my understanding -- and I stand to be
11:30:49 corrected -- that Spang already purchased through this
11:30:52 process, I believe, one house in Ybor City, is that
11:30:55 correct?
11:30:56 J.
11:30:56 >> That is my understanding, yes.
11:30:57 >> I guess the question now is, what's going to happen

11:31:00 to the other house?
11:31:13 >> My name is Tom Spang.
11:31:16 I'm not sure exactly what I am going to do yet.
11:31:21 Disposing of that property isn't going to hinder me
11:31:24 from being able to buy this one.
11:31:26 I just haven't made that decision as to what I am
11:31:29 going to do.
11:31:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Then the question to the Ellerbee
11:31:36 family in terms -- according to the, I guess, RFP, you
11:31:40 all are going to liver in the house?
11:31:42 >>> Yes, that's correct.
11:31:43 My present is my primary residence.
11:31:48 >> You purchased a house already through this process,
11:31:50 now going to vacate the that.
11:31:52 The whole intent is to build up the area so not leave
11:31:55 the house vacant.
11:31:56 You decide what you are going to do until something is
11:32:00 done.
11:32:01 So, you know, one or two options.
11:32:03 One, we can change the ranking.
11:32:06 You can do whatever you want to do in terms of that.
11:32:09 Or we can send it back and they can draw lots or

11:32:14 whatever.
11:32:14 Or you have an auction.
11:32:24 >>> May I make one more point?
11:32:25 It was mentioned that when it came to the previous
11:32:28 request for -- request for proposals that has gone
11:32:32 strictly on -- had it gone strictly on price, it would
11:32:36 have gone to Mr. Ellerbee.
11:32:38 If it gone strictly on price it would have gone to
11:32:41 neither of these proposers.
11:32:47 >>SAL TERRITO: This is an up or down proposal.
11:32:49 If you don't like it -- you can give guidance.
11:32:53 I'm not saying you can't do that.
11:32:55 But at this particular point, this is an up or down
11:32:57 vote.
11:32:57 If you don't like this proposal, you deny it, and then
11:33:00 it will come back, go back to the administration, it
11:33:02 will go through another process as they deem
11:33:05 necessary.
11:33:05 If you want to give guidance in that respect you can
11:33:07 certainly pass a motion, or do a resolution saying I
11:33:10 want certain guidelines to be used in the future.
11:33:13 If this is an up or down vote.

11:33:15 You can't say I'm going to treat number 2 or number 3.
11:33:17 It's either this one or none for the time being.
11:33:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, if I could follow up, that
11:33:21 is a result of the charter with the separation of
11:33:24 powers which puts the negotiation of contract solely
11:33:28 within the purview of the mayor.
11:33:32 >> So up or down vote.
11:33:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That's correct.
11:33:34 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Territo, how expedient could
11:33:40 we have at public auction?
11:33:42 How long will it take to set up a public auction?
11:33:44 >>> I don't know if we do public auction.
11:33:46 I think what will end up is let people know the
11:33:50 property is available and see what comes back in.
11:33:52 If you want to give guidelines on how you would like
11:33:54 to see this process to be, certainly it's within your
11:33:58 authority to either pass a motion or resolution saying
11:34:00 when these come back to us, we would like to see these
11:34:03 kinds of criteria included.
11:34:04 But for this one it's an up or down.
11:34:06 Then I don't know where it goes from this particular
11:34:08 point, how long it will take.

11:34:09 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Madam Chairman, I would like to
11:34:12 make a motion.
11:34:12 >>GWEN MILLER: One more question.
11:34:14 Mr. Dingfelder.
11:34:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I am willing to defer to your
11:34:17 motion because I think at this time same motion I am
11:34:19 go B to make.
11:34:20 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I move that we reject Ms.
11:34:23 Miller's request to accept Mr. Spang.
11:34:26 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion.
11:34:31 Ding and I would like to provide a little guidance.
11:34:35 If we just say we reject Ms. Miller that sounds very
11:34:38 harsh.
11:34:39 Her team for the last three years, four years, five
11:34:41 years working on this have worked very hard to come up
11:34:44 with something equitable.
11:34:45 At this point today, we have two groups.
11:34:48 They bid exactly the same amount.
11:34:49 And then we have thrown in all this fuzzy subjective
11:34:54 stuff.
11:34:54 I think my suggestion, my guidance, would be to
11:34:57 eliminate this objective, just do what Mr. Fechter

11:35:01 does on a day-to-day basis, which is we dispose of
11:35:05 lots, property, by doing it, we create terms, and we
11:35:08 ask for the high bid, and we sell it on the basis of
11:35:11 high bid.
11:35:12 And I would suggest that guidance in conjunction with
11:35:15 rejecting number 61, that we do it that way next time.
11:35:22 >> For this house and maybe that's the way we should
11:35:25 be doing all these real estate sales.
11:35:27 And if it's in a historic district, as John said, we
11:35:32 can set the terms.
11:35:35 To get the kind of contract we want.
11:35:38 >> I want to add, I would appreciate, on number 61, if
11:35:43 Mr. Caetano would add the numbers so we can be very
11:35:48 specific.
11:35:50 Include the file number.
11:35:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: B-2007-44.
11:35:56 >> Why are there two of those?
11:36:00 >> Look at number 60.
11:36:02 I see it now.
11:36:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just for clarification purposes, the
11:36:08 address of the motion on number 61.
11:36:12 >> 1720 east 15th Avenue.

11:36:15 >> What is the motion?
11:36:16 >> Reject 61 and encourage staff to do it on the basis
11:36:19 of high bid.
11:36:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
11:36:22 Thank you.
11:36:23 You are saying if they need to come up with some
11:36:26 guidelines as to what they want to do?
11:36:29 >>SAL TERRITO: Cleanest way to do it is vote on this
11:36:31 particular issue.
11:36:32 Then if you want to do a motion when it's over of how
11:36:35 you would like to see these thinks things come before
11:36:37 you, I would do it as a separate item.
11:36:43 >>> Can I be heard on the motion?
11:36:44 >>GWEN MILLER: No, you cannot be heard on the motion
11:36:47 unless somebody has a question.
11:36:48 We have a motion and second to deny 61.
11:36:50 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
11:36:52 Opposed, Nay.
11:36:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My motion would just be -- and I am
11:36:56 not going to reiterate it.
11:36:57 It's on the record to do way said five minutes ago, as
11:37:01 guidance to the administration, that that's the way we

11:37:03 would like this house disposed of.
11:37:06 >> Can we add that's how we should be handle these?
11:37:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: She said there's only one more, I
11:37:14 think.
11:37:15 >> No, there's more than one.
11:37:18 >>> There are really two phases of what I call the
11:37:20 program to use the acronym to shorten it.
11:37:23 There is one other building that is being fully
11:37:26 rehabilitated and renovated by FDOT, and USDOT.
11:37:33 There are others that they are not rehabilitating,
11:37:35 that they are simply moving to parcels of land that
11:37:37 the city owns.
11:37:39 I will basically have to take your motion, your
11:37:41 guidance when it comes to the rest of those, and
11:37:44 consider what our options are.
11:37:45 But I will certainly brief council when it comes to
11:37:50 that second phase.
11:37:51 There are some other criteria I think we need to look
11:37:54 at.
11:37:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I get my question again in terms of
11:37:58 process so that I can understand for the future, so
11:38:00 that council only votes up or down on these kinds of

11:38:05 issues that we rank.
11:38:10 Then we send back to the administration our guidance,
11:38:14 do they have to accept our guidance?
11:38:19 >>SAL TERRITO: They do not.
11:38:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: If it comes back the same ranking,
11:38:23 what?
11:38:23 So we keep voting it down, keep rejecting it until
11:38:27 nothing gets accomplished.
11:38:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It's called the legislative process
11:38:42 like President Bush and Congress.
11:38:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think Ms. Miller's department is
11:38:47 very responsive, they heard us, they realize this is a
11:38:50 screw-up, and, you know.
11:38:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I wasn't using those materials.
11:38:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's do it another way.
11:38:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The process could be improved.
11:39:02 >>GWEN MILLER: We got a motion and second on the
11:39:03 floor.
11:39:04 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
11:39:05 Opposed, Nay.
11:39:08 >> May I please make a comment in response to Mr.
11:39:12 Miranda's comments in regard to the bid process?

11:39:14 >>GWEN MILLER: You can talk with them after the
11:39:17 meeting, call their office.
11:39:18 Because to let you make a comment, then everybody else
11:39:22 has to have a comment so you can call the office.
11:39:24 >>> Yes, ma'am.
11:39:25 Thank you very much.
11:39:25 >>GWEN MILLER: All right.
11:39:26 Mr. Caetano, will you continue to move your committee?
11:39:30 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Building and zoning, I would like
11:39:41 to move item 60 to 716789 we have pulled number 72.
11:39:49 >> Second.
11:39:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Already deleted 61.
11:39:56 (Motion carried)
11:39:58 Transportation, Ms. Mary Mulhern.
11:40:03 >>MARY MULHERN: I move item 73 through 76.
11:40:09 >> Second.
11:40:09 (Motion carried).
11:40:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Set items 77 through 90 for public
11:40:17 hearings as indicated in the agenda.
11:40:19 >> Second.
11:40:19 (Motion carried).
11:40:20 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to our public readings for

11:40:28 second reading.
11:40:30 Items 91 through 104.
11:40:43 If there's anyone in the public that's going to speak
11:40:46 on any of these items, 91 through 104, please raise
11:40:49 your hand.
11:40:50 (Oath administered by Clerk).
11:41:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It's my understanding there are items
11:41:02 that have been available for public inspection in
11:41:04 council's office.
11:41:05 I ask they be received and filed at this time.
11:41:08 >> So moved.
11:41:09 >> Second.
11:41:09 (Motion carried).
11:41:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Very briefly.
11:41:14 If you have ex parte communication please disclose the
11:41:18 sum and substance prior to the vote.
11:41:19 Finally, for the purposes of the record, when you
11:41:21 state your name please reaffirm that you have been
11:41:23 sworn.
11:41:23 It will speed things along.
11:41:25 I have a sign to remind you.
11:41:27 Thank you.

11:41:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Need to open item 91.
11:41:30 >> So moved.
11:41:30 >> Second.
11:41:30 (Motion carried).
11:41:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:41:32 wants to speak on item 91?
11:41:34 >> Move to close.
11:41:35 >> Second.
11:41:35 (Motion carried).
11:41:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Will you read that please?
11:41:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No.
11:41:44 And I'll tell you.
11:41:45 There's nobody here from the preservation community
11:41:46 because after putting so much energy into this they
11:41:49 gave up.
11:41:49 But I will not be supporting this motion.
11:41:52 It's an improvement but it's not as good as it should
11:41:54 be.
11:41:54 And particularly now with the loss of Del Acosta who
11:41:57 has been such an able advocate for so many years in
11:42:00 terms of historic preservation.
11:42:01 I feel we need our rules to be as good and strong as

11:42:04 possible.
11:42:05 And I'm fearful that these are not as good and strong
11:42:08 as they need to be.
11:42:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda?
11:42:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move an ordinance adoption for
11:42:14 second reading, an ordinance of the city of Tampa,
11:42:16 Florida amending City of Tampa code of ordinances
11:42:19 chapter 27, zoning, article IX, historic preservation,
11:42:23 making comprehensive revisions to the code provisions
11:42:28 relative to the architectural review commission
11:42:29 amending section 27-77 officials schedule of district
11:42:33 regulations, providing for severability, providing for
11:42:37 repeal all ordinances in conflict, providing an
11:42:40 effective date.
11:42:41 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:42:42 Vote and record.
11:42:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We don't have a full council here.
11:42:54 >>GWEN MILLER: We are going to have to hold number 91.
11:42:58 Let's go back and hold that.
11:43:00 We go to item 92.
11:43:03 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on
11:43:05 item it 2?

11:43:07 Need to close.
11:43:08 >> Move to close.
11:43:13 It 2.
11:43:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I withdraw my motion.
11:43:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Put your name on the record, please.
11:43:26 >>> 2240 --
11:43:28 >> Point of order, I'm sorry.
11:43:31 Are you talking about this item, Julia?
11:43:35 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
11:43:35 I believe he's here to speak in opposition.
11:43:39 Might be appropriate to talk to the petitioner and see
11:43:41 if he would like to make a presentation, or hold his
11:43:44 comments.
11:43:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Would you step aside for a minute?
11:43:50 Petitioner for 92, would you please come up?
11:43:53 Is the petitioner here for 92?
11:43:59 >> I guess the petitioner didn't anticipate opposition
11:44:02 on second reading.
11:44:03 >>GWEN MILLER: Go ahead, Mr. Lirot.
11:44:06 >> Luke Lirot, 2240 Belleair road, suite 190 in
11:44:11 Clearwater now.
11:44:11 I'm here to speak in opposition to this special use

11:44:15 application.
11:44:19 I had done some research into this, and it was my
11:44:22 understanding that the original special use
11:44:25 application has come up on at least two prior
11:44:28 applications where the council has attempted to
11:44:31 evaluate the nature of the area to find that the
11:44:34 requirements of section 27-269 were met by this
11:44:38 special use application, and candidly in doing so I
11:44:42 put together some materials that I presented to you.
11:44:46 I would ask that I hand a copy to the clerk, that that
11:44:49 be received and failed at this time.
11:44:50 But being familiar with chapter 27 and the special use
11:44:54 requirements, in different context, it was my feeling
11:44:57 that perhaps that council didn't have all the
11:45:00 information that was necessary to conclude that these
11:45:04 criteria were met, probably the most important which
11:45:08 is 27-269-1 that the use will promote the public
11:45:13 health, safety and general welfare if located where
11:45:16 proposed, and developed and operated according to the
11:45:19 plan as submitted.
11:45:20 The finding in the materials that we received were
11:45:23 that the standard is being met as it will provide a

11:45:25 needed service to the community.
11:45:27 I think what has come out in the prior hearings on
11:45:30 this matter is that my client, Mr. Stouffer, has an
11:45:36 apartment complex that's directly adjacent to this
11:45:39 particular building that has been approved by the
11:45:41 department of corrections for the housing of
11:45:43 registered sex offenders.
11:45:46 And the problem created by this is that a registered
11:45:49 sex offender being secluded for the properties
11:45:53 available under the statutory restrictions on that,
11:45:56 they are basically no places where those individuals
11:45:58 can go.
11:45:59 Now, I understand the social repercussions of
11:46:03 evaluating the rights of sex offenders as opposed to
11:46:06 the rights of a church trying to develop a daycare
11:46:09 center.
11:46:09 But candidly, in the materials we put together, more
11:46:13 than just the characteristics of my client's property,
11:46:17 there are general characteristics of the nature of the
11:46:19 area that I think are problematic, especially when it
11:46:22 comes to any conclusion under the special use
11:46:24 criteria.

11:46:26 In the materials that we put together, the church
11:46:29 itself, which is the location for this application,
11:46:31 has had, I think, 13 calls for service, suspicious
11:46:35 activity, building, fights, disturbance,s et cetera.
11:46:41 The other adjoining properties are hotels and motels,
11:46:44 which have also been the location of many, many calls
11:46:46 for public service, from the police.
11:46:49 911 calls, disturbances, narcotics violations,
11:46:54 prostitution violations, and we actually obtained this
11:46:56 material from the Tampa Police Department.
11:46:58 Now, it's my understanding that when the council
11:47:01 considers whether or not to grant a wet zoning, this
11:47:04 type of research is done as a matter of course.
11:47:07 In this instance, it was never researched.
11:47:10 And I think that that's a grave oversight, especially
11:47:14 when you get to the additional closure that I have
11:47:16 here.
11:47:17 We actually did the calls for service with the grid,
11:47:19 the area where the Tampa Police Department keeps track
11:47:22 of that.
11:47:23 We have over 1200 very serious calls for service.
11:47:26 Now, one of the primary considerations that you have

11:47:29 to determine is whether or not the proposed use is
11:47:33 compatible with the area.
11:47:35 And I'm not going to be critical of the area.
11:47:37 I think it's an area in transition.
11:47:38 But from my perspective and certainly from the
11:47:41 perspective of my client, the combination of
11:47:44 characteristics of this area, the housing for
11:47:46 registered sex offenders, which I'm proud to say was
11:47:49 the least likely to be a location for a call for
11:47:52 police service, coupled with the adjoining property,
11:47:56 coupled with the area of the grid, we feel that
11:47:59 granting this special use would be directly
11:48:02 incompatible with the area as it is now.
11:48:04 (Bell sounds).
11:48:10 Mr. DeMarzo is present.
11:48:13 He pledged to me an additional minute and I'll hand
11:48:16 this to the clerk.
11:48:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: With all due respect that has to be
11:48:19 done prior to your begin speaking.
11:48:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to allow an additional minute.
11:48:27 >> Second.
11:48:27 (Motion carried).

11:48:28 >>GWEN MILLER: You have another minute.
11:48:31 >>> Thank you.
11:48:31 I'll be quick.
11:48:32 The materials that I had, in addition to the calls for
11:48:35 service, we have also done some research into the
11:48:38 necessity of use.
11:48:38 And again, we have nothing against the proposed use.
11:48:41 It's well intended.
11:48:42 It would probably be a good thing, if it was somewhere
11:48:44 else, or if it was placed in a neighborhood like this
11:48:48 that's in transition, after a significant period of
11:48:51 time has elapsed to allow that transition to take
11:48:55 place.
11:48:55 I really don't think that the criteria for the special
11:48:58 use has been met.
11:49:00 Certainly not by what we found in the record.
11:49:02 Now, the last thing that we included was a listed, and
11:49:06 obviously we don't want to deny anybody of the ability
11:49:08 to utilize daycare in the area.
11:49:12 I already emphasized the complete absence of locations
11:49:16 for a registered sexual offenders to live, but as far
11:49:19 as daycare centers and the necessity, I think the

11:49:23 first criteria that you found as a matter of fact was
11:49:28 it would provide a needed service to the community.
11:49:30 There are many other daycare centers.
11:49:32 There is child care center, paradise learning center,
11:49:39 mom's daycare, day craft true holiness, these are all
11:49:46 within a mile and a half of this proposed location.
11:49:49 So there are many, many alternatives for people that
11:49:51 would like to have a daycare center convenient to this
11:49:54 area.
11:49:54 And there are no other places for registered sex
11:49:58 offenders to go.
11:49:59 One of the big problems is that the department of
11:50:01 corrections doesn't recognize, and I don't know if the
11:50:04 city recognizes any grandfathering.
11:50:06 This is an important facility.
11:50:08 It gives these people, the registered sex offenders a
11:50:13 chance to reintegrate themselves into the community.
11:50:15 They are citizens that also have rights to be
11:50:17 respected.
11:50:17 It's just our feeling --
11:50:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Time is up.
11:50:21 >>> Did not have all that in front of them.

11:50:23 So we would like to oppose this as the final public
11:50:26 hearing.
11:50:26 So he would stand opposed to the special use
11:50:28 application.
11:50:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Cole.
11:50:32 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
11:50:33 We were able to get in touch with the petitioner.
11:50:35 Apparently they are stuck in traffic.
11:50:37 You don't know of the time frame it will be to get
11:50:39 here.
11:50:39 My recommendation is we go ahead and -- give me two
11:50:44 minutes to discuss this with Mr. Lirot.
11:50:46 He was here and had the opportunity to make his
11:50:48 presentation, whether or not he wants to be able to
11:50:50 stay around while this is continued or whether we
11:50:52 should take this up right now:
11:50:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Can we hear from the other people
11:51:00 first?
11:51:03 Going to from them or wait?
11:51:06 Ms. Cole, can we hear from the other public?
11:51:09 >>JULIA COLE: No, I would go ahead and wait to allow
11:51:12 me to have that conversation with Mr. Lirot and see if

11:51:14 he needs us to go ahead and continue the public
11:51:16 hearing perhaps after lunch to give petitioner an
11:51:19 opportunity to be here.
11:51:19 He may want to go ahead and just hold the public
11:51:22 hearing, and we can go ahead and move onto the next
11:51:25 public hearing.
11:51:28 But as it relates to the next public hearing, I
11:51:30 understand that item number -- I'm sorry, the next
11:51:35 item which is --
11:51:38 >>GWEN MILLER: 93.
11:51:39 >>JULIA COLE: 93, item number 94 had a conflict, and
11:51:47 agreed for 93 to go ahead and take their place.
11:51:50 So I'm not really sure.
11:51:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Ms. Cole, Mr. Stouffer is the
11:52:00 owner of the building in question, correct?
11:52:03 >>JULIA COLE: I'm going to recommend we hold off on
11:52:05 any additional conversation about this case until we
11:52:07 have an opportunity to of an opportunity to speak to
11:52:09 Mr. Lirot.
11:52:10 >>GWEN MILLER: All right.
11:52:12 We are going to go to item number 93.
11:52:14 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on

11:52:16 item number 93?
11:52:17 93.
11:52:18 Anyone want to speak to 93?
11:52:24 We are going to hold that until the petitioner gets
11:52:26 here.
11:52:27 We are going to item number 93.
11:52:28 Anyone in the public that wants to speak on 93?
11:52:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Madam Chair, I heard what Ms. Cole
11:52:35 said.
11:52:35 But she said to hold the item.
11:52:37 Well, the next item in line is 93.
11:52:39 Are we talking about 94?
11:52:41 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
11:52:42 >>JULIA COLE: I understand you have several items that
11:52:44 are uncontested.
11:52:46 Maybe what we should do is call and see if there's
11:52:51 anybody.
11:52:52 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to close the public hearing.
11:52:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close 93.
11:52:58 >> Second.
11:52:58 (Motion carried).
11:52:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just for the record, just so there's

11:53:01 absolutely no misunderstanding with regard to those in
11:53:03 the audience, is there anyone who wanted to speak on
11:53:07 number 93?
11:53:08 Thank you.
11:53:09 Seeing none.
11:53:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Would you read this one?
11:53:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I certainly hope so.
11:53:14 One cell is going dry.
11:53:17 Make a motion to adopt the ordinance upon second
11:53:19 reading, an ordinance approving a special use permit
11:53:21 S-2 approving a place of religious assembly and
11:53:24 daycare facility in an RS-50 residential single family
11:53:28 zoning district in the general vicinity of 6503 north
11:53:31 15th street in the city of Tampa, Florida and more
11:53:34 particularly described in section 1 hereof allowing
11:53:36 more than 50% alternative parking spaces on the grass,
11:53:39 reducing the backup width from 7 feet to 2 feet
11:53:44 reducing the required parking space from 13 to 8,
11:53:47 waiving the green space at 100 square feet, reducing
11:53:51 the required 10-foot buffer to 6-foot along the north
11:53:54 and east lot lines, reducing the required setbacks to
11:53:58 23 feet on east Lambright, to 16.62 on north 15th

11:54:03 street to 53.6 on the north and 19.4 on the east
11:54:07 reducing the minimum lot size of 20,000 square feet to
11:54:10 11700 square feet, waiving the required access to the
11:54:13 arterial collector street, providing an effective
11:54:16 date.
11:54:16 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:54:18 Vote and record.
11:54:30 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:54:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:54:35 wants to speak on item 94?
11:54:40 >> Question on number 94 of staff.
11:54:43 Is of staff here?
11:54:51 According to the agenda it looks like I wasn't in the
11:54:52 room for this vote.
11:54:56 Are there waivers?
11:54:57 Are there other convenience stores in close vicinity
11:55:01 to this?
11:55:07 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
11:55:10 >> If I recall there was one objection and an
11:55:14 individual that had same business across the street.
11:55:16 >>BARBARA LEPORE: This was under agenda WZ 07-85.
11:55:22 It was the other one.

11:55:23 And they requested the 1(APS).
11:55:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess for anybody who is familiar
11:55:30 with this, maybe Charlie or somebody else.
11:55:31 >>GWEN MILLER: No opposition.
11:55:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Regardless of opposition, I'm just
11:55:36 wondering is this sort of a lot, convenience store?
11:55:42 >>BARBARA LEPORE: This is a supermarket.
11:55:49 The building on the right side, residential units,
11:55:54 residence units.
11:55:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: This is more like a small grocery
11:55:58 store?
11:55:58 >>BARBARA LEPORE: It's a big one.
11:55:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Need to close the public hearing.
11:56:03 >> So moved.
11:56:04 >> Second.
11:56:04 (Motion carried).
11:56:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move for adoption upon second
11:56:13 reading an ordinance making lawful the sale of alcohol
11:56:16 containing beverages alcohol of more than 1% by weight
11:56:19 and not more than 14% by weight and wines regardless
11:56:22 of alcoholic content, beer and wine, 2(APS), in sealed
11:56:26 containers for consumption off premises only at or

11:56:29 from that certain lot, plot or tract of land located
11:56:32 at 8401 north Armenia Avenue, Tampa, Florida as more
11:56:36 particularly described in section 2 hereof waiving
11:56:38 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
11:56:40 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
11:56:43 conflict, providing an effective date.
11:56:44 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:56:45 Vote and record.
11:56:59 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:57:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone to speak on 95?
11:57:03 >> Move to close.
11:57:03 >> Second.
11:57:04 (Motion carried).
11:57:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I move an ordinance making lawful the
11:57:15 sale of malt beverages containing alcohol of more than
11:57:18 1% by weight, beer 1(APS) in sealed containers for
11:57:22 consumption on premises only at or from that certain
11:57:24 lot, plot or tract of land located at 5802 North
11:57:28 Armenia Avenue, number A, Tampa, Florida as more
11:57:33 particularly described in section 2 hereof waiving
11:57:35 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
11:57:38 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in

11:57:41 conflict, providing an effective date.
11:57:43 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:57:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have a question.
11:57:47 The address of the operation, 5802 North Armenia is
11:58:02 the same address of the church.
11:58:04 5802 North Armenia.
11:58:12 >>BARBARA LEPORE: This one is unit A, 5802 unit A.
11:58:19 The church is like probably two --
11:58:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A strip center.
11:58:26 Okay.
11:58:26 Different company.
11:58:27 Different outfit.
11:58:27 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:58:29 Vote and record.
11:58:30 >> This is on the motion to adopt.
11:58:40 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:58:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:58:44 wants to speak on item 96?
11:58:47 >> Move to close.
11:58:47 >> Second.
11:58:48 (Motion carried).
11:58:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move the adoption and ordinance an

11:58:56 ordinance making lawful the sale of beverages
11:58:59 containing alcohol of more than 1% by weight and not
11:59:01 more than 14% by weight and wines regardless of
11:59:05 alcoholic content beer and wine 2(COP-R) for couples
11:59:08 on the premises only in connection with a restaurant
11:59:11 business establishment on that certain lot, plot or
11:59:13 tract of land located at 9310 North Florida Avenue,
11:59:16 Tampa, Florida as more particularly described in
11:59:17 section 2 hereof wavering certain restrictions as to
11:59:20 distance based upon certain findings, providing for
11:59:23 repeal of all ordinances in conflict, providing an
11:59:26 effective date.
11:59:27 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:59:28 Vote and record.
11:59:35 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
11:59:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Council members, it's 11:59.
11:59:41 We have a policy that we break for lunch.
11:59:43 What are we going to do?
11:59:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Break for lunch.
11:59:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Come back at what time?
11:59:49 Ms. Cole?
11:59:51 >>JULIA COLE: To go back and resolve the issue, I

11:59:54 think on 92.
11:59:55 Just procedurally so we know where we are.
11:59:58 We now have you opened the case, the petitioner was
12:00:02 not available to make any presentation, it is an
12:00:04 ongoing public hearing, they have an obligation to be
12:00:07 here for the 9:30 public hearing.
12:00:10 Mr. Lirot went ahead and made his opposition known.
12:00:15 You have two options.
12:00:16 You can go ahead and wait for the petitioner to get
12:00:18 here, in essence start over, you can go ahead, close
12:00:21 the public hearing, take a vote.
12:00:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you have a recommendation?
12:00:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Why don't we take this after lunch?
12:00:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Could we have a formal motion to
12:00:32 continue this item to that item?
12:00:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Hold item 92 for 1:30.
12:00:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
12:00:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
12:00:41 (Motion carried)
12:00:43 We now going into recess until 1:30.
12:00:45 (Recess taken at 12:00 noon.)
Tampa City Council
1:30 p.m. session
Thursday, July 19, 2007

The following represents an unedited version of
realtime captioning which should neither be relied
upon for complete accuracy nor used as a verbatim
The original of this transcript was produced in all
capital letters and any variation thereto may be a
result of third party edits and software compatibility
Any person who needs a verbatim transcript of the
proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.

[Sounding gavel]
13:32:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called back to
13:32:37 order.
13:32:37 Roll call.
13:32:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
13:32:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
13:32:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
13:32:44 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
13:32:45 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
13:32:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.

13:32:48 We are going back to item number 92.
13:32:53 Julia Cole.
13:32:55 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
13:32:56 After having some conversations with representative of
13:33:01 Mr. Lirot, he's comfortable just allowing the hearing
13:33:06 to proceed as it was where you had him speak in
13:33:09 opposition first, and he had four minutes.
13:33:12 There may be other people in the audience who want to
13:33:14 speak in opposition and then allowing the petitioner
13:33:16 to pick that up and to comment on the opposition.
13:33:19 Thank you.
13:33:19 >>GWEN MILLER: We are going to go to the public.
13:33:21 Anyone in the public that wants to speak on item 92,
13:33:24 you can come up and speak.
13:33:25 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, Madam Chair, I have a
13:33:27 request, there may be additional people who came in
13:33:30 after lunch, just to reassure that everybody who is
13:33:33 speaking to item number 104 originally, have been
13:33:39 sworn.
13:33:41 >>GWEN MILLER: We went on recess and anyone sworn in
13:33:46 on 92 to 104.
13:33:47 If you are here to speak on any of those items and

13:33:49 were not sworn in, would you please stand and raise
13:33:51 your right hand?
13:33:52 (Oath administered by Clerk).
13:34:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And council's rules requiring you to
13:34:05 state clearly that you have been sworn.
13:34:06 When you state your name, please do so.
13:34:09 There's a sign to remind you to speed things along.
13:34:12 Thank you.
13:34:15 >>> I have been sworn in.
13:34:16 And I would like this evidence to be received and
13:34:19 filed.
13:34:20 It is site plans, and the photographs that I have
13:34:23 taken of the church and the motels that surround the
13:34:26 church and my complex.
13:34:27 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Before you begin, I spoke with Ms.
13:34:31 Cole, and I would agree for the purposes of the
13:34:35 record, Ms. Cole, petitioner is now present, is that
13:34:39 correct?
13:34:41 >>JULIA COLE: That's correct.
13:34:42 Of a everything additional conversations.
13:34:44 Why don't we go ahead and allow the petitioner to go
13:34:46 first, then the remainder of the opposition, let them

13:34:49 go ahead and do their case.
13:34:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner.
13:34:53 Is the petitioner here?
13:34:57 >>> David Fuches representing petitioner.
13:35:01 I want to start off by apologizing.
13:35:04 We were confused about the agenda.
13:35:06 And I do hope you accept our apologies.
13:35:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Have you been sworn in?
13:35:11 >>> I have been sworn in.
13:35:12 Thank you.
13:35:12 This is our fourth hearing.
13:35:14 Thank you for your patience with this project and I
13:35:17 hope you will agree at the end this is a very
13:35:19 worthwhile project.
13:35:20 I want to reiterate some things that have come up in
13:35:22 the past hearings, but I want to put in succinct
13:35:26 matter so there's no confusion about what may have
13:35:28 been said in the past by others.
13:35:34 The Judeo Christian health clinic, around March of
13:35:42 2006, that's when they started to raise campaign to
13:35:46 raise funds.
13:35:46 There was an unofficial sign put up by the church

13:35:50 announcing that there would be a future daycare
13:35:52 coming.
13:35:53 That was in May of '06.
13:35:56 There was a fund-raiser in March of '07.
13:36:00 I attended it.
13:36:01 It was very well attended.
13:36:03 And as a result of that, several hundred thousand
13:36:06 dollars were committed to it.
13:36:11 My firm placed the officials notice on the site in
13:36:14 March of 2007 as required by the code.
13:36:19 That was a week before the first hearing which I
13:36:22 believe was in April.
13:36:27 As far as we are concerned, we strictly adhere to the
13:36:29 city code throughout this whole process.
13:36:33 And we do ask for your approval.
13:36:37 I would like to introduce the attorney for the
13:36:40 applicant to explain some things about the adjacent
13:36:44 property owners facility, and then the pastor here is
13:36:47 here.
13:36:48 He would like to talk about some of the programs youth
13:36:50 related that have been on the site for the last 50
13:36:52 years.

13:36:53 Thank you.
13:36:58 >>> Mina Morgan, attorney for John Calvin,
13:37:02 Presbyterian church and the St. John's learning
13:37:04 center.
13:37:04 Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
13:37:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry to interrupt.
13:37:10 Have you been sworn in?
13:37:12 >>> Yes, I have been sworn in.
13:37:13 I apologize for not stating that.
13:37:15 I was here before the City Council on June 14th
13:37:18 and then again on June 28th and Mr. Stubbard, who
13:37:24 had the property north of the church spoke in
13:37:26 opposition of our learning center at that time.
13:37:29 The neighborhood association has been keeping me
13:37:32 apprised of what's been going on on Mr. Stover's
13:37:36 property and I think the City Council should know
13:37:38 about that, if the City Council is not aware of it.
13:37:42 The water was turned off on that property by the
13:37:46 previous owner on April 30th of this year.
13:37:49 The water was not officially turned on again by Mr.
13:37:55 Stover until June 27th of this year.
13:37:58 The records from DOC indicate that more sexual

13:38:02 predators were moving into that property in May of
13:38:06 2007.
13:38:07 So Mr. STOVER was moving people into that property
13:38:11 without having water officially turned on.
13:38:14 Also, he was cited after the last City Council hearing
13:38:20 that we all attended for not having the proper permit
13:38:24 to rent at that location, in either of the two
13:38:28 buildings.
13:38:29 He made that application for a permit to rent on July
13:38:31 7th of this year after having been cited.
13:38:37 To our knowledge, having spoken to the neighborhood
13:38:39 association people, as of the 10th of July, that
13:38:44 site had not been inspected to see if it would be
13:38:47 acceptable to rent and he had not paid his fees for
13:38:50 permit to rent on that site.
13:38:53 The church has been there for more than 50 years.
13:38:56 We have followed the legal process to get our special
13:38:58 use application in so that we can continue to serve
13:39:02 the children in the area.
13:39:05 And our position is Mr. STOVER's problem is not with
13:39:10 us, it's with DOC.
13:39:12 They never should have approved that location for

13:39:14 residences for sexual predators to begin with.
13:39:16 Children have regularly congregated on that site for
13:39:19 more than 50 years.
13:39:21 Thank you.
13:39:28 >>> Earl Smith, pastor of St. John Presbyterian church
13:39:31 and John Calvin Presbyterian church here in Tampa.
13:39:33 I just want to reiterate the last statement by MINA
13:39:39 Morgan.
13:39:40 I have been sworn in.
13:39:41 Our contention has been from the beginning that this
13:39:44 particular church is a place where children normally
13:39:49 congregate, which is one of the stipulations in the
13:39:51 law that says that these particular sex offenders that
13:39:55 have committed crimes against children under 18 cannot
13:40:00 live within 1,000 feet of a school or playground or
13:40:03 daycare center or place where children normally
13:40:06 congregate.
13:40:08 We have been in conversation with those folks about
13:40:11 that.
13:40:13 I have met with all the different groups whenever this
13:40:16 first came up to see exactly how many children
13:40:18 normally attend the various group meetings.

13:40:24 This is what I can share with you, that the church of
13:40:26 God Seventh Day Adventist is there on Saturdays from
13:40:30 ten in the morning till five or six o'clock in the
13:40:32 evening.
13:40:33 Normally we have 30 to 35 children there every
13:40:35 Saturday.
13:40:36 On some Saturdays they have as many as 60 children
13:40:42 because they invite other Seventh Day Adventist
13:40:45 congregations to come meet them there occasionally.
13:40:47 House of praise, church of God and Christ, meets there
13:40:51 on Sunday evenings and Wednesday afternoons, Wednesday
13:40:54 evenings, and they have about ten children who attend
13:40:56 their programs on a regular basis.
13:41:01 A number of groups.
13:41:04 We had another church, another African-American
13:41:06 congregation that was meeting with us on Sunday.
13:41:08 They just recently asked when their lease was up to
13:41:15 find a new place because we realized as we progressed
13:41:18 towards making our daycare center, that there's only
13:41:21 so many activities we can do in one space.
13:41:24 They had a number of children who were coming there on
13:41:26 Sundays, and as well as Tuesday and Thursday evenings

13:41:29 as well.
13:41:31 Some of these innate groups that come there have lots
13:41:34 of children who are there in the evenings.
13:41:37 We discovered that the program brings about 20
13:41:45 children on Tuesday and Saturday evenings by vans from
13:41:49 their detox program for their young people that come
13:41:54 to these particular meetings to keep --
13:42:01 We have a new meeting for youth, the only youth
13:42:06 narcotics anonymous group in the city that meet for
13:42:10 about six months now and they have at least a half a
13:42:12 dozen people under 18 that are attending this meeting
13:42:16 every Monday evening.
13:42:18 They would have more but it's a real late meeting, is
13:42:20 one reason why they told me.
13:42:24 They start at 9 p.m. and it's hard for the people
13:42:26 under 18 to get there.
13:42:28 It's mainly for young adults and these young people
13:42:30 who are able to attend.
13:42:34 The speaker meeting that meets on Thursday has seven
13:42:36 more at their meeting, the meeting on Friday has seven
13:42:41 or ten.
13:42:43 Every evening there's something going on there and

13:42:44 there's children coming to all of these events.
13:42:47 We are planning vacation Bible school this year,
13:42:50 August, and we are hoping to have 30 or 40 children
13:42:52 for that program in August.
13:42:54 We plan to use the building that we are going to use
13:42:57 for our learning center for their vacation Bible
13:42:59 school program.
13:43:03 I just wanted to mention those.
13:43:04 We think this is a place where children normally
13:43:07 congregate.
13:43:07 We are trying to convince the department of
13:43:09 corrections that that is the case, even without being
13:43:13 a daycare center.
13:43:16 Thank you for your consideration.
13:43:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
13:43:19 Anyone else going to speak for the petitioner?
13:43:33 >>> I have been sworn.
13:43:33 I am vice-president of the neighborhood association.
13:43:38 Got down here very quickly when we heard this was
13:43:41 coming back up on the agenda.
13:43:43 We have been working very closely with the particular
13:43:47 church to expand their children's organizations.

13:43:50 We have got a lot of kids moving back into Old
13:43:53 Seminole Heights, and they do need a place where they
13:43:57 can go to and get the preschool and get the daycare
13:44:03 support that they need.
13:44:03 We have lots of young families.
13:44:05 We think this is a great benefit to our neighborhood.
13:44:10 And, quite frankly, having a daycare center, preschool
13:44:16 center moved into this facility, does not prevent
13:44:20 somebody who owns the property adjacent to it from
13:44:22 renting their apartments out.
13:44:24 This is not going to stop that from happening.
13:44:28 Those apartments, as long as they are certified by the
13:44:30 city and are rented with rental certificates, this
13:44:35 does not impede anybody's ability to make a living on
13:44:39 the apartment complex.
13:44:41 We feel like the church should not be penalized for
13:44:45 following the city's rules and regulations.
13:44:47 Thank you.
13:44:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just a question of process D.the
13:44:54 petitioner end their case, their presentation?
13:44:57 I just am curious as to whether these people speaking
13:45:01 as part of the petitioner's time in support of the

13:45:03 petition or whether these are individuals going beyond
13:45:05 the petitioner's allotted presentation time?
13:45:08 If I could just have that clarification, please.
13:45:11 Because under the council's rules, the petitioner is
13:45:14 allowed up to 30 minutes for a presentation.
13:45:17 And each individual is allowed three minutes
13:45:19 individually.
13:45:21 So my question is -- and the reason I raise this,
13:45:24 council, is because it raises a due process issue,
13:45:28 because counsel for the petitioner has raised an issue
13:45:32 that was not privy to Mr. Lirot's client prior to that
13:45:36 presentation.
13:45:37 So I think with regard to that issue, if Mr. Lirot
13:45:40 representing his client wishes to have that issue
13:45:42 addressed, which he did not have that information at
13:45:45 the time he made his initial presentation, he should
13:45:47 have that right if that's his choice.
13:45:49 That's why I raise the issue.
13:45:54 >>> The neighborhood association is in addition.
13:45:58 I represent the minister and the church.
13:46:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: To clarify then, your position is
13:46:03 complete.

13:46:04 Your case, you finished your initial presentation.
13:46:08 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to the audience portion.
13:46:10 Anyone in the audience who wants to speak on item 92
13:46:13 may come up and speak now.
13:46:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I would definitely agree that Mr.
13:46:25 Lirot be given an opportunity for an additional couple
13:46:27 of minutes to address the issues that we all have just
13:46:29 heard.
13:46:30 Some of that is new information.
13:46:31 If he wants the time.
13:46:33 If he doesn't want the time.
13:46:34 But I think as a matter of due process it should be
13:46:37 clear he be given that.
13:46:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And that would be my advice.
13:46:41 >>> Susan long.
13:46:42 I have been sworn.
13:46:43 I'm treasure of Old Seminole Heights and chair of the
13:46:45 code enforcement committee for the neighborhood
13:46:47 association.
13:46:47 One point I would like to make is that the petitioner
13:46:52 filed their application in December '06.
13:46:55 The complainant didn't even purchase the property

13:46:58 until March of '07.
13:47:00 So this is -- he came after the church's petition.
13:47:04 The neighborhood association, as well as other people,
13:47:07 including the petitioner, had met with the department
13:47:09 of corrections that provided them with the
13:47:11 information, how frequently the children may meet
13:47:15 there and the department of corrections has taken that
13:47:17 under advisement.
13:47:18 What decision they make is entirely up to them.
13:47:20 We have no control over that.
13:47:21 But I want to reinforce everything that everybody else
13:47:24 said.
13:47:24 We are fully in support of that.
13:47:25 We need a strong daycare center in the neighborhood,
13:47:29 because we spent a lot of years, they are now coming
13:47:34 back in droves and we need a place for them to grow to
13:47:37 provide a healthy environment.
13:47:38 Thank you.
13:47:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Next.
13:47:49 >>> Christian stover and I have been sworn in.
13:47:54 I have this evidence that I need to be received and
13:47:56 filed.

13:47:57 Pictures of the church.
13:47:58 The grounds of the church.
13:47:59 I think you guys will find also the site plan here.
13:48:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is that one set or multiple?
13:48:11 >>> Interesting things in those photos.
13:48:16 Now, last time I was here, I asked you guys to do some
13:48:21 investigation into this church -- or not this church
13:48:23 but this area for daycare and I hope you guys have
13:48:25 done your due diligence in doing so.
13:48:28 I know that your attorney has told you that your job
13:48:30 here is to make sure that this daycare is compatible
13:48:34 with the neighborhood.
13:48:37 First of all, I would like to start off with my
13:48:39 complex.
13:48:40 I have sex offenders.
13:48:42 That in itself I think is not -- being close
13:48:45 percentage to the daycare I don't think it's a good
13:48:47 idea to put a daycare so close to sex offenders.
13:48:50 Second of all, if you guys look at the site plan, the
13:48:53 driveway that we are going to be dropping off these
13:48:55 children at is driving right through and right in
13:48:59 front of in front of the complexes.

13:49:04 Now since sex offenders have been known to be there,
13:49:08 there have been no changes in the site plan to try to
13:49:10 drop them off in another location so we are going to
13:49:13 be waving candy in front of a baby. This is
13:49:17 craziness.
13:49:17 We have three motels.
13:49:19 My complex to the right, two motels to the front and
13:49:22 another one to the left.
13:49:24 It's been told to me these motels rent by the hour.
13:49:29 It's also been told to me by surrounding neighbors and
13:49:31 people that live in my complex that aren't sex
13:49:33 offenders that these motels are drug havens.
13:49:37 If you can look at the crime grid that we provided,
13:49:39 you will see that there's a heavily drug and crime
13:49:41 activity going on in these motels.
13:49:43 So now you have a daycare that's surrounded by a
13:49:46 complex that houses sex offenders and three motels
13:49:50 that have high crime rates.
13:49:54 On Nebraska Avenue, which I don't think I need to say
13:49:56 anything about Nebraska Avenue, we all know what
13:50:01 happened on Nebraska Avenue, where we have
13:50:04 prostitution, drugs, everything that's going on over

13:50:06 there.
13:50:07 Now, we have also provided you guys with a grid.
13:50:10 And that grid, there's 1200 calls for service.
13:50:13 A grid covers a couple-block area.
13:50:16 1200 calls of service.
13:50:18 You have an apartment complex that houses sex
13:50:20 offenders.
13:50:21 You have two motels of which I have been told rent by
13:50:23 the hour, and you guys are going to put a daycare in
13:50:26 the center of all this.
13:50:29 The church itself, I'd like to get into that.
13:50:33 Now, we have been told that children have regularly
13:50:38 congregated in this location.
13:50:39 I think the church is mentioned but they are not
13:50:42 stressing as well is also in this church are AA and NA
13:50:49 members.
13:50:50 Okay?
13:50:51 They mention that African-American congregation has
13:50:54 recently left the church.
13:50:55 Well, I have a pastor from that African-American
13:50:58 congregation contact me last week, Kimberly brown.
13:51:02 When she contacted me, she told me that the reason why

13:51:05 her congregation was leaving the church is because of
13:51:07 all the problems that were happening with the AA and
13:51:10 NA people.
13:51:11 The church has done little to protect her congregation
13:51:14 from those individuals, and she's been battling, at
13:51:18 least she told me, that she has been battling with the
13:51:21 church to try to protect her congregation.
13:51:25 Perhaps three more minutes.
13:51:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Three more minutes.
13:51:32 Where is your speaker form?
13:51:34 >>> I turned it in.
13:51:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Hold on just a second.
13:51:39 Do you have the speaker form and --
13:51:41 >>> I turned it in.
13:51:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Read the names off.
13:51:47 See if they are here.
13:51:58 (off microphone).
13:52:00 >>GWEN MILLER: You need to be present.
13:52:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to wave the rules -- waive the
13:52:07 rules for a minute.
13:52:10 >> Second.
13:52:15 >> Just give him another minute.

13:52:18 >>> The pastor has told me that her own child was
13:52:21 improperly fondled.
13:52:23 And she's been fighting with the church before she
13:52:26 even knew about my complex because of the danger we
13:52:29 are the AA and NA people.
13:52:31 She found drug paraphernalia, syringes, she's actually
13:52:36 left the church because of the issues with AA and NA
13:52:41 people.
13:52:42 Before she knew about my complex she talked to the
13:52:44 pastors, and conversed with them over the dangers of a
13:52:49 daycare and NA and AA people going on at the same
13:52:51 time, and what she told me is that their conclusion is
13:52:55 they are not really worried about it.
13:52:56 I was told myself that by pastor Earl Smith that's
13:53:01 what liability insurance is for, so I'm sure his
13:53:04 comments are probably the same.
13:53:10 At this location, I believe it's admirable to put a
13:53:15 fence up to protect these children.
13:53:17 But, you know, fences don't protect our borders from
13:53:21 having illegal immigrants from coming in, I doubt they
13:53:24 are going to do little to protect these children from
13:53:27 sex offenders. It's a safety issue.

13:53:28 It's a safety issue for the children.
13:53:30 I'm not against daycares.
13:53:31 I have nothing against daycares.
13:53:33 I think opening a daycare would be a beautiful thing
13:53:35 and I think the community -- it's great for the
13:53:37 community. But find another location.
13:53:39 Don't put it in the center of three motels that have
13:53:42 heavy drug and prostitution activity, and an apartment
13:53:49 complex that houses sex offenders.
13:53:55 I understand --
13:53:56 (Bell sounds).
13:53:58 >>> Okay. I'm done.
13:53:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Next speaker.
13:54:01 >>> Michael Shultz and I have been sworn in.
13:54:04 To begin, the church says that they posted signs
13:54:09 saying that they are going to have daycare.
13:54:15 I believe a week in advance before they go into court.
13:54:17 If you go out there right now, there is no sign out
13:54:19 there. 5-24 is the last one.
13:54:23 They have not informed the public of this.
13:54:24 There are pictures taken recently that document this.
13:54:27 Another condition of their instruction that it will

13:54:31 not adversely affect traffic, where they have it, it
13:54:36 certainly will, I drive down there to routinely do
13:54:42 maintenance to the apartment complex.
13:54:45 It backs up traffic turning into there.
13:54:49 The city has looked over several code violations
13:54:54 currently in effect at the church.
13:54:56 The pictures we provided will show all those clearly,
13:55:00 pipes that should be underground.
13:55:02 They are flagpoles 4 inches above the ground, being
13:55:06 held by two metal posts, which is a severe health
13:55:11 hazard as well as the front steps are disintegrating
13:55:13 and cracking, tripping, the handicap rails are not put
13:55:18 in the ground, the way they treat their property now
13:55:23 is how it will continue, I'm sure.
13:55:28 There are scores of unreported crime.
13:55:30 The 1200 cases in the last year or so is a very small
13:55:34 percentage of what goes on there.
13:55:36 You can tell clearly these hotels are crack hotels and
13:55:39 they are prostitute ridden. The empty lot that they
13:55:44 have right next to where the proposed daycare is, I
13:55:49 routinely see drug addicts and prostitutes servicing
13:55:53 in that area.

13:55:53 The code enforcement will call on us and we had
13:55:56 recently cleared it out, doing our best to abide by
13:56:00 that.
13:56:00 The code enforcement however is not dealing with the
13:56:03 church, although they have been notified.
13:56:07 By putting this daycare in the area, it's not helping
13:56:09 out the community.
13:56:10 By having children in the area where drug deals and
13:56:15 prostitutes go will not stop the people from doing
13:56:18 drugs and will not stop the prostitutes from turning
13:56:21 tricks.
13:56:21 We will only be putting another threat in the area.
13:56:24 It is not helping at all.
13:56:26 If you would like to help out this area, at the police
13:56:31 substation, which will be completely behind, that will
13:56:33 aid in it, not by putting small children in harm's
13:56:36 way.
13:56:39 It is completely ridiculous.
13:56:41 The area around there, and then their traffic.
13:56:45 One of the conditions.
13:56:46 Their road right now has huge holes in it, tires,
13:56:55 their drainage is clogged with mulch.

13:56:59 A lot of what they are doing, it doesn't make very
13:57:04 much sense.
13:57:06 There are also daycares in the area, in the close
13:57:08 area, that need -- that are empty, and they are
13:57:12 willing to hold more people.
13:57:14 The sex offender complex, we have people going back to
13:57:18 prison because they cannot find a place to live.
13:57:22 The county is in much more need of this complex than
13:57:25 they are of another daycare, which is already -- which
13:57:28 they have plenty of in the area.
13:57:30 There are several of them thank you.
13:57:37 >> My name is Michael Shultz, Sr.
13:57:44 This daycare is insane.
13:57:46 I said it was insane last time.
13:57:48 It just is.
13:57:49 You know, you should see this place.
13:57:52 We have hypodermic needles.
13:57:56 That lady, Kim brown, she said her son was
13:57:58 inappropriately touched by somebody from the
13:58:00 Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.
13:58:02 I love that smile.
13:58:03 I think it's totally flip and sick.

13:58:06 You're taking any people, needles, you're taking crack
13:58:09 bags all over the place and we got a bush right behind
13:58:11 the daycare.
13:58:12 My son and I spent the night there. They have
13:58:15 prostitutes giving head to people in the church
13:58:17 parking lot right behind the air conditioners.
13:58:20 This is flippin' nuts.
13:58:22 Now the area where they would park cars, they got huge
13:58:26 mulch piles there. It's clogging up the storm drains.
13:58:29 They are opening up another daycare.
13:58:31 It's not a matter of if the kids are going to get
13:58:33 injured if they go in there.
13:58:35 They will.
13:58:35 The flagpoles, it's got two pipes going down into the
13:58:39 ground with the flagpole in the middle.
13:58:41 I've never seen anything like this.
13:58:43 The sign they said was up in March wasn't up.
13:58:45 I saw it.
13:58:46 It was in May when they put the sign up.
13:58:48 They lied.
13:58:49 Lied.
13:58:50 The sign, they said it was going to be a daycare.

13:58:53 The other sign is an illegal sign.
13:58:55 You have a picture of it.
13:58:56 It doesn't say anything about daycare.
13:58:58 It says St. John's learning center.
13:59:01 We figured it was Bible study for adults.
13:59:03 We had no idea it was for a daycare.
13:59:06 The kids are in danger.
13:59:07 I mean, you guys don't think this is funny.
13:59:09 It's just unbelievably sick that you guys would do
13:59:13 that.
13:59:13 There is much more need in the community of a place to
13:59:16 house these sex offenders.
13:59:17 People that pay rent, have to give it back because
13:59:19 they are trying to shut it down.
13:59:21 These people got a right to live.
13:59:23 Maybe you don't like sexual predators.
13:59:25 Nobody does.
13:59:25 But you know they need a place to live.
13:59:27 And you're stopping it.
13:59:28 You're changing the flippin' ordinance to make this
13:59:32 happen.
13:59:32 That's what you did before.

13:59:34 It seemed like you are approving it.
13:59:35 It is totally 100% despicable.
13:59:38 Why would you do it?
13:59:39 I figured maybe somebody from the church knows
13:59:41 somebody in the City Council, sunshine law violation,
13:59:44 maybe.
13:59:44 But, you know, to have this is totally flippin' nuts.
13:59:49 Yeah, I don't like it either but I really don't like
13:59:52 kids being put in danger.
13:59:53 How could you do something like that?
13:59:55 How could you do it?
13:59:57 It's just totally unbelievable.
13:59:58 Now as far as your special use condition, you guys
14:00:00 aren't doing none of them.
14:00:02 He have single one of these standards that are
14:00:03 supposed to be here aren't here.
14:00:05 The traffic, keep on going, the refuge and service
14:00:13 areas, the lighting, utilities, that's okay.
14:00:15 It's just everything is not here.
14:00:17 Now you can't blame them because of my irateness.
14:00:23 Now what I mean?
14:00:23 You can't blame them.

14:00:24 They are pissed, too, but they are more likely to be
14:00:28 good.
14:00:28 And it's not their fault that I'm irate.
14:00:31 I'm irate because I'm totally flipping pissed off.
14:00:34 This is totally flippin' crazy.
14:00:36 And you might sit up there with smiles on your face.
14:00:39 I hope they vote every one of you out of office if you
14:00:42 approve that daycare.
14:00:45 You know, a three-year-old child unproperly touched
14:00:49 there.
14:00:49 A three-year-old child.
14:00:51 Why don't you bring your kids into daycare?
14:00:53 I'm serious. This is just flippin' nuts.
14:00:56 It just is.
14:00:57 How can you do it?
14:00:58 You know, as far as the homeowners association, that's
14:01:04 why they are behind the church, because they want to
14:01:06 get the sexual predators out of there.
14:01:07 They don't give a damn about the --
14:01:10 >>GWEN MILLER:
14:01:11 [Sounding gavel]
14:01:11 You need to stop.

14:01:12 That language is not going to be used in here.
14:01:14 >> You no, maybe you shouldn't let any more children
14:01:17 get hurt in the church.
14:01:18 Hypodermic needles.
14:01:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Your time is up.
14:01:24 Is there anyone else that would like to speak?
14:01:26 Petitioner, would you like rebuttal?
14:01:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You don't represent the petitioner,
14:01:42 is that right? You are not part of the petitioner's
14:01:44 case.
14:01:44 This is not rebuttal, is that correct?
14:01:46 You are not with the petitioner?
14:01:50 >>GWEN MILLER: No, she has three minutes.
14:01:54 >>> First of all, I would like to address the concerns
14:01:58 of the impact on the church.
14:01:59 My name is Judy Cornett, and I'm the president of
14:02:01 Safety Zone Advocacy, we do predator awareness in our
14:02:06 target area right now, Sulphur Springs area.
14:02:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Have you been sworn in?
14:02:10 >>> I have been sworn in, yes, sir.
14:02:11 I would like to go first to the pastor who got up and
14:02:13 spoke and said something about the laws and ordinances

14:02:16 that these sex offenders are in violation because of
14:02:19 where they live.
14:02:19 This is one we discussed before.
14:02:21 These sex offenders cannot.
14:02:23 They can live across the street from the church,
14:02:25 across the street from a school, across the street
14:02:27 from a daycare because these are the ones that were
14:02:29 sentenced before 1994 which we haven't talked about
14:02:31 before.
14:02:33 I honestly don't agree with a daycare being put at the
14:02:36 church, not that I oppose a daycare being at churches.
14:02:39 I think it is a great contribution to a church to have
14:02:42 a daycare for children.
14:02:43 But because Sulphur Springs and Seminole Heights area
14:02:45 is my area of concern.
14:02:47 We have 553 registered sex offenders within five miles
14:02:50 of Sulfur Springs pool which covers this area.
14:02:54 There's 161 registered sex offenders within two miles
14:02:58 of this church.
14:03:00 I don't think we need another candy jar for these sex
14:03:03 offenders.
14:03:04 We had somebody come up earlier that listed several

14:03:07 daycares in the vicinity.
14:03:08 I don't recall the names.
14:03:09 They said there was a handful of them.
14:03:11 There's daycares in the area for the children that
14:03:13 already exist.
14:03:14 Why create more candy jars for sex offenders,
14:03:17 especially if there is a housing division that's right
14:03:20 next door to the church.
14:03:22 I mean, the numbers are outrageous in this area.
14:03:24 And I think we need to fix the problem and get some
14:03:27 ordinance squared away, get some laws in place to
14:03:29 control the sex offenders that we have before we go
14:03:32 and add more places for children to congregate.
14:03:35 Thank you.
14:03:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
14:03:37 Would anyone else like to speak?
14:03:43 >>> As I was watching your closed captioning I was
14:03:46 refreshed that your voice recognition software does
14:03:49 capture the word flippin'.
14:03:52 Again, Luke Lirot, attorney for Mr. STOVER and the
14:03:57 adjacent properties.
14:03:58 And I was not sworn in before but my statements to

14:04:01 council were on the basis that I'm an officer of the
14:04:03 court.
14:04:04 I would not misrepresent anything to you.
14:04:06 One of the misperceptions I think that the petitioner
14:04:09 has is that there's an issue about what they did and
14:04:12 what they complied with all of the statutory
14:04:15 requirements.
14:04:15 I think that everything that they presented, they did
14:04:18 the best they could.
14:04:19 I don't think that there's any lack of compliance with
14:04:22 any of the nuts and bolts of the city code.
14:04:25 But what really is the issue is whether or not they
14:04:27 carried the day by putting Ford substantial, competent
14:04:31 evidence that you as a council can look to, to find
14:04:34 out for yourself whether they met those criteria.
14:04:37 And quite honestly, it's not really an issue of the
14:04:40 sex offender house versus the daycare center.
14:04:43 I think that what is endemic about this issue is that
14:04:46 it goes to the very nature of this transitional
14:04:49 community.
14:04:50 Daycare centers are wonderful things.
14:04:52 But it's too soon.

14:04:54 It's in the wrong place.
14:04:55 And based on the data that we put forward, that again
14:04:58 we didn't create, we went to the data that's preserved
14:05:01 and maintained by the Tampa Police Department.
14:05:04 Over 1200 calls for service, the area is not an area
14:05:08 where daycare center would satisfactorily meet the
14:05:13 criteria.
14:05:13 Is there a need for this?
14:05:15 Perhaps there is.
14:05:15 But is that needles met by the alternative daycare
14:05:20 centers that are within a mile that we put into the
14:05:22 record?
14:05:23 What alternatives exist for the house that is the
14:05:27 residents of these registered sex offenders?
14:05:29 They have significantly fewer alternatives.
14:05:32 I think if you wanted to put this in some sort of
14:05:35 balancing context, they need it more than the daycare
14:05:38 center needs it.
14:05:39 And from all perspective, the other specific criteria
14:05:43 that need to be established, again just because you
14:05:46 comport with the city code in filing your paperwork,
14:05:52 filing it doesn't make for substantial, competent

14:05:54 evidence to support the findings.
14:05:56 It's our position that while those criterion, 27-269
14:06:00 and 272 are pretty nebulous, that in light of the
14:06:03 actual documentary evidence we put on the record, it
14:06:06 would not be a good idea to grant this.
14:06:08 Now, is there a conflict between the church and the
14:06:12 sex offenders?
14:06:13 I would hope that there isn't.
14:06:15 But where the conflict lies is with the nature of this
14:06:19 area.
14:06:19 And it's certainly our position that to grant this
14:06:22 special use application would be antagonistic if not
14:06:27 dangerous, in the increase in the presence of
14:06:31 children.
14:06:31 If this is a place where children congregate I would
14:06:33 hope that the department of correction has conducted
14:06:35 their due diligence to ascertain fully the nature of
14:06:38 the area and the nature of the use.
14:06:39 But from the photographs that have been put into the
14:06:42 record there's a lot of problems.
14:06:43 The hypodermic needles, the stories about drug use and
14:06:47 prostitution, this is not the right place for this

14:06:49 use.
14:06:50 It's well intended.
14:06:51 But based on the specific criteria that you have an
14:06:55 obligation and responsibility to evaluate, I don't
14:06:57 think that the petitioner has carried the day with
14:07:01 enough evidence.
14:07:02 And on that basis we would respectfully request that
14:07:06 you vote down the special use application.
14:07:10 And I'll give the clerk what I represented I would
14:07:12 provide earlier today.
14:07:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
14:07:16 Petitioner, do you want rebuttal?
14:07:27 >>> Earl Smith, the pastor, John Calvin, St. John's
14:07:31 Episcopal church.
14:07:32 Just a couple of things.
14:07:33 I have got one brochure that I would like to present
14:07:37 to the council.
14:07:54 I have one of these to leave with you but I don't have
14:07:56 copies of it.
14:07:57 We are not just opening a daycare center.
14:07:59 We need a use permit that the city requires to call it
14:08:02 a daycare center.

14:08:03 We are opening an early childhood learning center
14:08:07 that's been recognized as one of the best in the
14:08:09 state.
14:08:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Point of order.
14:08:13 Mr. Shelby, do you have a copy of this that was just
14:08:15 given to us?
14:08:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, I do have a copy.
14:08:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is it in the form of rebuttal or is
14:08:21 it new information?
14:08:24 I think we need to be concerned about that.
14:08:26 Maybe you need to ask the petitioner.
14:08:28 >>> The thing is they are saying they don't need
14:08:29 another daycare center.
14:08:31 We are trying to say it's just not another daycare
14:08:34 center.
14:08:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: There's two issues here.
14:08:36 First of all this is a period of rebuttal.
14:08:38 I would suggest that you do as you say, refer to
14:08:45 opposition you have heard.
14:08:46 I should also point out the reason I did raise, Mr.
14:08:49 Dingfelder, I raised the issue knew my mind and the
14:08:51 fact there was an issue raised as to the sign being a

14:08:53 learning center, and I thought this was relevant to
14:08:56 clarification as to the issue being raised of the sign
14:08:59 that said St. John Presbyterian learning center so I
14:09:03 thought it was permissible to go --
14:09:07 >> Is this in the form of rebuttal?
14:09:10 >>> I don't like --
14:09:11 >> Let me ask the question first.
14:09:12 Does it help to respond to some of the things you
14:09:15 heard?
14:09:16 >>> What I heard was that the community didn't need
14:09:18 just another daycare center.
14:09:20 I want to point out that this isn't going to be just
14:09:22 another daycare center.
14:09:23 >> And that's why you gave us the documents?
14:09:25 >>> Yes.
14:09:26 We mentioned this before.
14:09:27 It's really not new information.
14:09:28 We have talked about it before.
14:09:33 Our target children are the children of low-income
14:09:36 families who cannot afford to put their children in
14:09:40 the high quality early childhood learning center.
14:09:45 We have to raise about $30,000 a year in scholarships

14:09:48 for this facility that we have now that has 100
14:09:51 children in it.
14:09:51 This will be another 50 children in this center, which
14:09:55 means we'll need to raise another $15,000 in
14:09:59 scholarships for them, and we not only provide classes
14:10:04 for the children during the day, and the four-year-old
14:10:09 pre-K program, but we also provide classes for their
14:10:12 parents and the adults of the community as well in the
14:10:14 evening, in cooperation with Hillsborough County
14:10:19 schools.
14:10:19 We do GED classes, parenting classes, English as a
14:10:23 second language classes for the parents and for other
14:10:28 interested adults in our community.
14:10:29 So we are not talking about just opening a daycare
14:10:31 center as you have heard.
14:10:35 This is a special kind of a place, that even working
14:10:41 families can send their children.
14:10:45 The other thing I want to rebut is from pastor
14:10:48 Kimberly brown.
14:10:55 Her organization was there on a one-year lease.
14:10:59 Initially we had some problems with that particular
14:11:02 organization, and when we saw we were going to need

14:11:06 more space we asked her to leave.
14:11:08 In fact we asked her to leave back in I think either
14:11:11 December or January of this year and they refused so
14:11:13 we allowed them to stay until the end of their lease.
14:11:15 I have never heard from her anything about a problem
14:11:20 with one of their children being touched in an
14:11:27 inappropriate way by anybody on our church properties.
14:11:29 That's just not anything that I have ever heard.
14:11:34 And I can't believe that she would say something like
14:11:36 that, without having said something to me.
14:11:41 As far as the mulch that's on the property, just about
14:11:45 two weeks ago we had someone come in and spread all
14:11:49 that mulch, and that very night after he did it,
14:11:53 someone illegally dumped two more loads of mulch on
14:11:57 that property.
14:11:58 We have had that as an ongoing problem for about a
14:12:02 year now.
14:12:03 We are not the only location in the neighborhood.
14:12:05 It's happening two blocks, just down the street from
14:12:07 us in another vacant lot where people are illegally
14:12:10 dumping mulch in the middle of the night without the
14:12:13 owner of the property having any knowledge of it.

14:12:17 I had been intending to call the police department and
14:12:20 complain about it.
14:12:20 I have been too busy to do so.
14:12:22 But I certainly would like to register my complaint
14:12:24 now, if I could.
14:12:26 We didn't ask for that mulch there.
14:12:28 It was illegally dumped there without our permission
14:12:31 and everyone who comes to that church knows that we
14:12:33 don't want it dumped there.
14:12:34 I mean, we have informed all of the group leaders that
14:12:38 we don't want any mulch dumped there.
14:12:45 >> What was the other issue? Thank you very much.
14:12:49 I hope you will kindly and graciously consider our
14:12:51 petition.
14:12:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Pastor Smith?
14:12:57 Come back.
14:12:58 You're the pastor, right?
14:13:04 >>> Yes, sir.
14:13:04 >> How long have you been there?
14:13:06 >>> I have been there since February of 2001.
14:13:09 >> 2001.
14:13:12 You have children there now?

14:13:13 >>> Yes, we do.
14:13:14 >> How long have those children been there?
14:13:16 >>> They have been there since I have been there.
14:13:20 >> Are you licensed by Hillsborough County?
14:13:23 >>> As a church?
14:13:24 We don't need a license as a church.
14:13:26 >> No, for the daycare.
14:13:29 What is the learning center?
14:13:32 The daycare.
14:13:33 Generally you have to follow the Hillsborough County
14:13:34 regulations.
14:13:35 >>> We don't have a daycare at the site now.
14:13:38 >> The learning center?
14:13:40 >>> We don't have a learning center at the John Calvin
14:13:43 site now.
14:13:44 We have children who attend our church.
14:13:48 We currently have a learning center at the McGill
14:13:50 address.
14:13:51 I'm also the pastor of St. John Presbyterian church.
14:13:55 Yes, we do have all the licenses and everything for
14:13:58 that.
14:14:00 That's from this council and --

14:14:03 >> My question is, have you been approved by
14:14:04 Hillsborough County for the license at this particular
14:14:07 site?
14:14:08 >>> Oh, yes.
14:14:10 >> So Hillsborough County has already given you --
14:14:13 >>> As far as the school system goes?
14:14:14 >> No. Hillsborough County. County commission.
14:14:17 It comes through Hillsborough County government.
14:14:21 A licensing agency over there, and they come out.
14:14:25 They do a routine inspection.
14:14:29 You have a health inspection, fire inspection, all of
14:14:32 that.
14:14:34 >>> We are in the process, and the first thing I have
14:14:36 to do is get the site permit from you folks to do this
14:14:40 construction so we can meet all the codes they
14:14:42 require.
14:14:43 We are aware of that.
14:14:44 We are in the process.
14:14:45 You know, currently have a permit from Hillsborough
14:14:48 County to do that.
14:14:51 And we can't until we have done about $200,000 worth
14:14:54 of work.

14:14:58 >> And you had children coming through your Sunday
14:15:02 school, vacation Bible school.
14:15:04 >>> And Sunday school and church services and various
14:15:06 groups.
14:15:07 >> Ongoing services.
14:15:08 So historically children have always been on the
14:15:14 premises in the area.
14:15:15 >>> Yes, Commissioner Scott, that's correct.
14:15:17 >> And Madam Chair, and to the board members, I know
14:15:21 there's a difference of opinion, but it's a good thing
14:15:24 that churches have daycare centers, learning centers.
14:15:28 I'm a pastor, and I have a learning center.
14:15:30 We started out with eight children.
14:15:32 Eight.
14:15:33 And today we have 296.
14:15:35 >>> That's wonderful.
14:15:36 >> Children.
14:15:37 And I commend any church.
14:15:40 Not only from the standpoint of educating children but
14:15:42 also as a way to help parents involved as well,
14:15:47 opportunity for PTA, opportunity for evangelism and
14:15:50 growth for the church, opportunity to have an impact

14:15:53 on the lives of children.
14:15:55 And it is regulated -- it is regulated and annually
14:15:59 inspected by Hillsborough County.
14:16:02 Hillsborough County has a staff that comes out on a
14:16:05 regular basis to go through your records, to make sure
14:16:08 you are following all the square footage and all of
14:16:10 that.
14:16:10 So they will have to comply with all of Hillsborough
14:16:13 County regulations.
14:16:16 >>> Thank you, sir.
14:16:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Questions by council members?
14:16:19 >> Move to close.
14:16:20 >> Second.
14:16:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to close the public
14:16:22 hearing.
14:16:22 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
14:16:24 Opposed, Nay.
14:16:25 Would anyone like to read the ordinance?
14:16:29 Number 92.
14:16:30 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll be glad to read this
14:16:33 ordinance.
14:16:33 I wonder -- I'm going to move for approval for second

14:16:37 reading.
14:16:38 But just to clarify some things for the record.
14:16:40 I do believe that over the last, now, four hearings,
14:16:43 we have heard -- three or four hearings, we have heard
14:16:46 excellent of competent, substantial evidence that this
14:16:49 project meets our code requirements and meets any
14:16:52 exception that is have been requested.
14:16:55 I think one thing that offends me personally, and
14:16:59 offends, I think, offends this council, is any
14:17:03 accusations that council has acted improperly, with
14:17:08 impropriety and I would say that's flippin' nuts.
14:17:14 I think the bottom line is that this church will
14:17:16 protect the children within its borders, within its
14:17:19 confines.
14:17:20 I think if the next door neighbor is so concerned
14:17:23 about children then he needs to find new tenants.
14:17:26 So with that --
14:17:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Wait a minute, we don't speak out.
14:17:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move an ordinance approving special
14:17:34 use permit S 2 approving a place of religious assembly
14:17:37 and daycare facility in an RS-50 residential single
14:17:40 family and CI commercial intensive church residential

14:17:43 classroom, zoning district in the general vicinity of
14:17:46 6501 north Nebraska Avenue in the city of Tampa,
14:17:49 Florida and as more particularly described in section
14:17:51 1 hereof allowing grass parking reducing the required
14:17:55 number of parking spaces from 24 to 18 reducing the
14:17:57 required 40 side yard setback on Lambright street to
14:18:01 25 feet the side yard setback on Diana street to 9.7
14:18:06 and the rear yard setback from 40 to 17.05 waiving the
14:18:10 required access to an arterial or collector street
14:18:13 providing an effective date.
14:18:14 The last thing we checked to make sure the signs had
14:18:16 been posted properly and that was confirmed by staff
14:18:18 and the clerk --
14:18:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Sir, if you are going to speak out, you
14:18:21 are going to get out of here.
14:18:22 We aren't going to have anybody speaking out in this
14:18:24 audience.
14:18:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: They don't have to repost the sign
14:18:27 each time.
14:18:28 That's not part of our code.
14:18:29 The other issue is that their code enforcement issues,
14:18:32 and somebody can report them and code enforcement will

14:18:34 deal with it but that's not an issue at this zoning
14:18:37 hearing.
14:18:37 With that, I'll move to approve.
14:18:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby.
14:18:40 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, that is a motion to adopt on
14:18:42 second and final reading, is that correct?
14:18:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes.
14:18:45 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
14:18:49 Vote and record.
14:19:02 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:19:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:19:06 wants to speak on item 96?
14:19:09 97.
14:19:11 96.
14:19:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Miranda had a motion but didn't
14:19:26 get it.
14:19:29 We had a quorum.
14:19:30 We just didn't get a second.
14:19:31 On 91.
14:19:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Back on 91?
14:19:37 If I may, Madam Chair, on item number 91, it's one
14:19:41 that has to be held till we had a full council.

14:19:44 The full council is here.
14:19:47 I heard several council objections by council members
14:19:50 and I appreciate their concerns.
14:19:52 However, I move 91, which is the one that's the
14:19:54 ordinance on chapter 27.
14:20:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move an ordinance upon second
14:20:11 reading, an ordinance of the city of Tampa, Florida
14:20:14 amending City of Tampa code of ordinances chapter 27,
14:20:17 zoning, article 9, historic preservation making
14:20:20 comprehensive revisions to the code provisions
14:20:22 relative to the architectural review commission,
14:20:25 amending section 27-77 officials schedule of district
14:20:28 regulations, providing for severability, providing for
14:20:30 repeal of all ordinances in conflict, providing an
14:20:32 effective date.
14:20:32 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
14:20:34 We need to vote and record.
14:20:40 >> 91.
14:20:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Vote and record.
14:20:57 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder, Mulhern
14:21:00 and Saul-Sena voting no.
14:21:03 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that

14:21:04 wants to speak on item 97?
14:21:07 Need to close.
14:21:10 >> Move to close.
14:21:11 >> Second.
14:21:11 (Motion carried).
14:21:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern, are you ready to read?
14:21:26 >> Move the following ordinance upon second reading.
14:21:28 An ordinance being presented for second reading.
14:21:31 An ordinance repealing ordinance number 2006-175,
14:21:35 making lawful the sale of beverages containing alcohol
14:21:38 of more than 1% by weight and not more than 14% by
14:21:42 weight and wines regardless of alcoholic content, beer
14:21:45 and wine, 2(APS), in sealed containers for consumption
14:21:48 off premises only at or from that certain lot, plot or
14:21:52 tract of land located at 220 east Madison street,
14:21:55 Tampa, Florida, as more particularly described in
14:21:58 section 3 hereof, waiving certain restrictions as to
14:22:00 distance based upon certain findings, providing for
14:22:03 repeal of all ordinances in conflict, providing an
14:22:05 effective date.
14:22:07 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:22:09 Vote and record.

14:22:18 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:22:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:22:22 wants to speak on item 98?
14:22:26 >>> 101 Franklin.
14:22:27 Number 99, we do have an objection, and the
14:22:30 representative for 99 is trying to catch a flight.
14:22:32 And I was going to, if you all would be willing.
14:22:35 >>GWEN MILLER: 99?
14:22:36 Okay.
14:22:37 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on
14:22:39 99?
14:22:39 >>JILL FINNEY: Land Development Coordination.
14:22:47 This was the trial case that we had done where there
14:22:50 were going to be changes between first and second
14:22:52 reading.
14:22:53 We have received the new site plan with all of the
14:22:55 requested changes, and it has been certified by the
14:22:57 zoning administrator and has been received by the
14:22:59 clerk's office.
14:23:00 Thank you.
14:23:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
14:23:04 >> Move to close.

14:23:04 >> Second.
14:23:05 (Motion carried).
14:23:06 >>MARY MULHERN: 99.
14:23:13 I move to adopt for second reading, an ordinance
14:23:17 presented for second reading, an ordinance rezoning
14:23:20 property in the general vicinity of 1903, 1905 and
14:23:24 1513 north Lois Avenue in the city of Tampa, Florida
14:23:26 and more particularly described in section 1 from
14:23:28 zoning district classifications PD planned development
14:23:31 to PD planned development mixed use residential
14:23:34 multifamily retail, providing an effective date.
14:23:36 >>CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second.
14:23:38 Vote and record.
14:23:48 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:23:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:23:51 wants to speak on 98?
14:23:58 >> Move to close.
14:23:59 >> Second.
14:24:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have to move faster.
14:24:08 >>> I thought Truett was going to open his petition
14:24:11 but I'll be happy to come in.
14:24:13 I have the objection.

14:24:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Truett, do you want to speak first?
14:24:20 >> You can reserve.
14:24:28 >>> Truett Gardner, 101 Franklin.
14:24:31 I have an inkling what the objection is going to be
14:24:34 but I want to refresh your memory on the project since
14:24:36 it was four weeks ago.
14:24:38 It was a mixed use office, hotel residential
14:24:40 development, and Truett will be -- truly will be an
14:24:44 icon for the city.
14:24:45 And with that I'll let Mr. Allen bring his objection
14:24:49 forward, and we'll reserve time for rebuttal.
14:24:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
14:24:54 >>> For the record, I have been sworn.
14:24:56 Ray Allen, 4221 Boy Scout road, Carlton fields, I'm
14:25:01 here on behalf of the adjacent land owner who is
14:25:05 Prudential did life insurance company which as you
14:25:07 remember is the large building next door to the glass
14:25:10 and brick building.
14:25:11 I want to introduce into the record an agreement
14:25:23 between the successors title of the two parties that
14:25:25 are now before you, the applicant and also Prudential.
14:25:30 In that agreement, there are a number -- and I might

14:25:34 add that that agreement is subject of the lawsuit here
14:25:36 in Hillsborough County at the present time.
14:25:39 That lawsuit has been going on for some time.
14:25:42 The applicant has now, my understanding, has purchased
14:25:45 the property and taken that lawsuit over.
14:25:48 What is in that agreement, which I will intend to make
14:25:52 my objection, which is really compatibility with the
14:25:55 surrounding area there, three issues that are
14:25:57 contained within that agreement.
14:25:58 There was a height limitation on the subject property,
14:26:01 which is 55 feet.
14:26:03 There are some parking limitations on there.
14:26:06 There are some access limitations on there.
14:26:08 And there are also some landscaping and buffering
14:26:13 requirements on that particular document.
14:26:16 There is also contained in that document that there
14:26:19 needs to be approval of the site plan by my client,
14:26:23 Prudential life.
14:26:27 You can probably see why there is a lawsuit pending
14:26:29 and ongoing in the circuit court.
14:26:32 And I would put my objection on the record, based upon
14:26:34 that agreement of compatibility, and leave it at that.

14:26:38 Thank you very much.
14:26:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder, then Mr. Miranda.
14:26:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll defer.
14:26:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just want to ask the city
14:26:48 attorney and City Council.
14:26:49 Certainly I am not aware that the city was a party to
14:26:51 that agreement.
14:26:52 This is a hearing on zoning matters, agreement between
14:26:57 two parties.
14:26:57 That's the agreement approximately 12 years ago if my
14:27:00 math is correct and I have no knowledge of that
14:27:02 agreement.
14:27:02 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
14:27:05 That is correct.
14:27:06 And I will have an opportunity to speak with Mr. Allen
14:27:10 about this as well. This is a private agreement
14:27:12 between these two property owners, and moving forward,
14:27:15 what's in front of you today is whether or not the
14:27:16 zoning is appropriate.
14:27:18 It's ultimate that's really a private matter.
14:27:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I certainly don't want the city
14:27:26 getting involved in a litigation lawsuit while we are

14:27:29 not part of the agreement.
14:27:30 >>JULIA COLE: And we are not part of that agreement.
14:27:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
14:27:34 Mr. Allen?
14:27:37 I'm a little confused.
14:27:40 Does your client have an existing building or proposed
14:27:42 building?
14:27:44 >>> It has an existing building on there.
14:27:46 >> What is the nature of that building?
14:27:48 >>> It's a commercial office building.
14:27:51 >> And here they are proposing a multi-use facility?
14:27:56 >>> I believe residential and commercial.
14:27:59 >> Marina office?
14:28:03 >> That's correct.
14:28:04 >> I guess what I am confused about is the
14:28:05 compatibility issue, compatibility out of our code?
14:28:10 Or just compatibility as related to the contract?
14:28:13 >>> You know, it's really compatibility out of that
14:28:17 contract, and I certainly do not want to confuse the
14:28:21 board at all.
14:28:23 I sit with those boards long enough to know what the
14:28:25 private agreements are and what the advice from

14:28:27 council is and it's correct.
14:28:28 But I do believe that -- and I want to put the board
14:28:32 on notice that there is disagreement out there because
14:28:34 quite frankly, Mr. Miranda, I believe that the city
14:28:39 may ultimately be brought into this lawsuit, and maybe
14:28:42 perhaps on the action today.
14:28:45 And I just don't want the city to be blind-sided
14:28:49 because there is an agreement there.
14:28:50 I'm trying to make you aware of it.
14:28:52 And we do think it is a compatibility issue very
14:28:54 simply because there was an agreement among the
14:28:56 parties, some 12 years ago, that they would not go
14:28:59 over the 55-foot limitation, and that very simply is
14:29:02 my objection for the record.
14:29:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: One other question to staff as a
14:29:07 follow-up to that.
14:29:12 Staff.
14:29:12 Not legal staff, zoning staff.
14:29:16 Does staff have an opinion about compatibility between
14:29:20 these two projects as related to our zoning code, not
14:29:22 as related to any contract between individuals?
14:29:26 >>> If you remember, during our presentation, we

14:29:28 actually took photographs of all the other mid rise
14:29:31 and high-rises in the Rocky Point area, and the
14:29:35 project based on urban design's evaluation of that
14:29:38 area is that it is compatible with the trend, the
14:29:41 development trend of going up rather than going out.
14:29:46 So it's compatible in our opinion.
14:29:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
14:29:51 >>> Truett Gardner, 101 South Franklin street.
14:29:54 I have always been under the understanding and when
14:29:57 ray contacted me two days ago got me to research it
14:30:01 further but it's always been a city policy that what's
14:30:05 private is private and what's zoning is zoning and you
14:30:07 are simply as this board to review the merits of this
14:30:09 case and whether it comprised of the comprehensive
14:30:12 plan or of chapter 27.
14:30:14 I believe we made the case that it does.
14:30:15 Furthermore, the findings on my research would support
14:30:20 the city's long standing policy, can be summed up in
14:30:23 this case right here; which is --
14:30:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Which we can't read.
14:30:30 >>GWEN MILLER: He's going to read it to us.
14:30:33 >>> It is well settled that the zoning or rezoning of

14:30:35 real property cannot in any way abolish, abrogate
14:30:40 lawful covenants and restrictions pertaining thereto.
14:30:43 So the effect of this rezoning has no effect on the
14:30:45 agreement.
14:30:46 Your body looks at the zoning on its merits, not of
14:30:50 this agreement.
14:30:53 Citation 182 Southern 2nd 483.
14:30:57 The case is stranger, or stringer, versus Jacksonville
14:31:03 expressway authority.
14:31:05 And rod stone is here who handled the litigation.
14:31:09 He wanted to talk very briefly about that.
14:31:11 But with the zoning that's what I do, and that's what
14:31:14 this case is about.
14:31:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You were sworn in, sir?
14:31:18 >>> I was.
14:31:21 >>> Robert Stone, Kevin Templer law firm, 101 East
14:31:25 Kennedy.
14:31:25 We as a are the litigation counsel for this matter and
14:31:29 it's a separate and distinct and unrelated matter,
14:31:32 unrelated to this zoning. The city is not a party to
14:31:34 the private covenant.
14:31:35 It's a private matter.

14:31:36 And we believe the zoning and the litigation can
14:31:40 proceed compatibly on parallel tracks because they are
14:31:43 unrelated.
14:31:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
14:31:45 We need to close the public hearing.
14:31:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
14:31:47 >> Second.
14:31:48 (Motion carried)
14:31:49 >> Mr. Caetano, would you read 98, please.
14:31:58 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: For second reading, an ordinance
14:32:00 rezoning property in the general vicinity of 7616 west
14:32:03 Courtney Campbell causeway, in the city of Tampa,
14:32:06 Florida, and more particularly described in section 1
14:32:10 from zoning district classifications CG, commercial
14:32:14 general, to PD, planned development, single-family
14:32:16 residential attached, hotel, marina, office, providing
14:32:21 an effective date.
14:32:22 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:32:24 Vote and record.
14:32:25 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:32:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:32:35 wants to speak on item number 100?

14:32:37 >>PHIL SCHULZ: I have been sworn in.
14:32:42 The new site plans submitted between the first and the
14:32:44 second hearing have been recertified by the zoning
14:32:48 administrator, and provided to the clerk.
14:32:53 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
14:32:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
14:32:57 >> Second.
14:32:57 (Motion carried).
14:32:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano, will you read 100, please?
14:33:02 Mary?
14:33:03 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes, I wanted to say that --
14:33:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have closed the public hearing.
14:33:08 You are not going to ask any questions.
14:33:10 If she's going to have some question, she cannot
14:33:13 speak.
14:33:15 I asked if there was a question.
14:33:16 >>MARY MULHERN: I have a statement I.don't have a
14:33:19 question.
14:33:20 Just on the motion.
14:33:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Go ahead.
14:33:22 Make your statement.
14:33:22 >>MARY MULHERN: Upon reflection, after the first

14:33:25 reading, we had some time between then and now.
14:33:28 And it was about midnight when we had that first
14:33:31 reading, I think.
14:33:32 I don't believe that the amenities provided in this
14:33:38 project warrant the award of bonus density which
14:33:41 basically gives them twice as much square footage and
14:33:44 increase it is height to a level that is not
14:33:47 compatible with the building that is surrounding on
14:33:50 two sides.
14:33:51 So I'm going to change my vote.
14:33:53 And I just felt like I should say that before we vote
14:33:55 on it.
14:33:56 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Number 100.
14:34:01 Ordinance being presented for second reading.
14:34:03 An ordinance rezoning property in the general vicinity
14:34:05 of 211 and 227 north Meridian Avenue in the city of
14:34:11 Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
14:34:13 section 1 from zoning district classifications CD-1,
14:34:18 Channel District, to CD-3, Channel District, retail,
14:34:22 restaurant, office, commercial, and multifamily
14:34:24 residential, providing an effective date.
14:34:26 >>CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second.

14:34:29 Question on the motion.
14:34:30 Mrs. Saul-Sena.
14:34:31 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
14:34:33 Interestingly, I had a similar revelation, which is
14:34:37 when I looked at the towers of Channelside which I
14:34:40 voted against, which were 30-something stories, and I
14:34:42 thought about this proposal, which is 40-something
14:34:45 stories, I felt that it was much too tall, and I also
14:34:49 learned something between the last meeting and this
14:34:51 meeting, and that was that one of the people who spoke
14:34:56 on behalf of allowing this, because it's such a
14:35:00 beautiful design, Giametti, who is a friend, has been
14:35:06 hired by the petitioner to do the lead certification
14:35:08 for the building.
14:35:10 She spoke not as a person who was hired and didn't say
14:35:13 that as part of the hearing.
14:35:19 I got an e-mail about this from the Channel District
14:35:28 council.
14:35:28 When she spoke, she spoke about it being such a
14:35:30 beautiful building awe how great it was it was leased
14:35:33 and I found out subsequently she had been hired by the
14:35:35 petitioner to do the LEED certification on the

14:35:38 building.
14:35:39 And I went to our attorney, and I said, shouldn't she
14:35:41 have had to say that on the record if she was hired by
14:35:44 the, you know, to reveal as part of her testimony that
14:35:47 she was in fact hired by the petitioner?
14:35:49 And our attorney said, no, that you are not required
14:35:52 to share that kind of information.
14:35:55 But to me, that was very upsetting because I have
14:35:57 known her for years and I respected her opinion and I
14:36:00 thought it was germane she was in fact hired by the
14:36:03 petitioner to do this LEED certification.
14:36:05 I thought that wasn't -- while it might be the letter
14:36:08 of the law I don't think it's the spirit of the law.
14:36:10 I think people should have to reveal those kind of
14:36:12 relationships.
14:36:13 So based on that I am not going to support this.
14:36:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Madam Chair, this is exactly what I
14:36:17 talked about when I talk about making changes to the
14:36:19 ethics.
14:36:21 Part of the section to include everything, saying
14:36:28 swear to tell the truth and you haven't made a
14:36:30 statement about anything.

14:36:32 I like the project.
14:36:32 That doesn't mean anything.
14:36:33 Whether it's this project or not.
14:36:35 So what I am saying is this would tighten up where
14:36:37 individuals that come here for and against would have
14:36:39 to make that disclosure at the time that we have the
14:36:42 hearing.
14:36:42 It saves time.
14:36:44 It saves energy.
14:36:45 It saves money.
14:36:46 And best of all, the citizens represent up front.
14:36:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, obviously this comment
14:36:56 raises some issues that may require opening the public
14:36:58 hearing.
14:37:02 What I would ask with all due respect if you could
14:37:04 handle this next item, I'll make inquiry and then come
14:37:07 back.
14:37:07 >>GWEN MILLER: There's a motion and second to open the
14:37:14 public hearing.
14:37:15 (Motion carried).
14:37:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I agree.
14:37:17 I think open the public hearing, I think the e-mail

14:37:20 needs to come in.
14:37:21 Maybe they repeated.
14:37:24 Then the petitioner have an opportunity to rebut.
14:37:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Absolutely.
14:37:27 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: May you say, Madam Chair, again, we
14:37:30 are going to go through this exercise, and at the end
14:37:33 those are going to vote one way and those that are
14:37:35 going to vote the other way are not going to change
14:37:37 their minds, because any information that's brought to
14:37:39 here is not germane to the ethics.
14:37:41 It's going to be based on an e-mail or based on what
14:37:45 somebody said here, when there was no law that
14:37:48 prohibited them from saying what they said.
14:37:50 That's what the text is.
14:37:54 And maybe the legal department can correct me.
14:37:56 If there's no law, there's no miss doing.
14:38:02 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Go to the next item and continue
14:38:04 this.
14:38:04 >>GWEN MILLER: We are going to go to item 101.
14:38:07 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on
14:38:10 101?
14:38:11 >> Move to close 9 motion and second to close.

14:38:13 (Motion carried).
14:38:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to adopt the following
14:38:18 ordinance upon second reading, an ordinance rezoning
14:38:21 property in the general vicinity of 3208 west Tampa
14:38:24 Bay Boulevard in the city of Tampa, Florida more
14:38:26 particularly described in section 1 from zoning
14:38:28 district classifications RS-50 residential single
14:38:30 family to PD planned development business,
14:38:32 professional office, providing an effective date.
14:38:34 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:38:36 Vote and record.
14:38:40 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously with Saul-Sena
14:38:57 absent at vote.
14:38:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:39:00 wants to speak on item 102?
14:39:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
14:39:04 >> Second.
14:39:04 (Motion carried).
14:39:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move adoption of ordinance for second
14:39:13 reading, an ordinance of property in the general
14:39:15 vicinity of 310, 400 and 405 north Rome Avenue, 1503,
14:39:22 1505, 1506, 1507, 1508, 1509, 1512, 1514, and 1518

14:39:28 west Fig Street, 1510 West Gray Street, and 1515,
14:39:34 1519, and 1521 north B street in the city of Tampa,
14:39:38 Florida and more particularly described in section 1
14:39:40 from zoning district classifications RS-50 residential
14:39:44 single family and IG industrial general, industrial
14:39:48 single family, to PD, planned development, mixed use
14:39:51 retail, office and residential, providing an effective
14:39:53 date.
14:39:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Question on the motion?
14:39:56 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just want to make sure, and I
14:39:58 don't need an attorney to answer.
14:40:00 Any council member can.
14:40:02 I'm sorry I couldn't be here for that vote but I want
14:40:04 to be sure it carries no side agreements or anything.
14:40:07 Am I correct?
14:40:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Correct.
14:40:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
14:40:10 >>GWEN MILLER: we have a motion and second. Vote and
14:40:12 record.
14:40:16 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:40:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:40:20 wants to speak on item 103?

14:40:23 >> Move to close.
14:40:24 >> Second.
14:40:24 (Motion carried).
14:40:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move the adoption upon second reading
14:40:32 of ordinance rezoning property in the general vicinity
14:40:34 of 3300 North Armenia Avenue, 2508, 2510 west Ivy
14:40:40 street and 2507, 2509 west Cordelia street in the city
14:40:44 of Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
14:40:46 section 1 from zoning district classifications,
14:40:49 planned development, to PD, planned development mixed
14:40:51 use, commercial and residential, providing an
14:40:53 effective date.
14:40:53 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:40:55 Vote and record.
14:41:00 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:41:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:41:08 wants to speak on item 104?
14:41:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
14:41:13 >> Second.
14:41:13 (Motion carried).
14:41:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: An ordinance upon second reading,
14:41:25 move an ordinance rezoning property in the general

14:41:27 vicinity of 2701 west saint Isabel street in the city
14:41:31 of Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
14:41:33 section 1 from zoning district classifications RS-50
14:41:36 residential single family to PD planned development,
14:41:39 professional and medical office, providing an
14:41:40 effective date.
14:41:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am going to support this
14:41:42 rezoning.
14:41:43 However, if this is in another part of town, and I'm
14:41:46 not blaming the petitioner or the people that are
14:41:48 working on this rezoning, but if this was adjacent to
14:41:52 Tampa General Hospital, they wouldn't be paying $1
14:41:56 million, they would be paying a billion dollars
14:41:59 because between 50 and 100 homes have been destroyed
14:42:03 in the neighborhood that I live in.
14:42:04 >>THE CLERK: Who was the second?
14:42:08 >> Second.
14:42:15 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
14:42:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 105 is a continued public hearing.
14:42:22 We are going to have a staff report.
14:42:23 We need a staff report on 105.
14:42:30 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second reading.

14:42:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Does anyone in the public wants top
14:42:33 speak on item 105?
14:42:42 >>> 10955 Tamiami Avenue, I'm with the petitioner.
14:42:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's been a couple weeks.
14:43:08 Can you refresh my memory?
14:43:09 >>> Actually, it's been a few months.
14:43:12 Council, today I'm not here to request -- I'm
14:43:16 requesting some more time.
14:43:17 I would like to get the community involved with what I
14:43:19 am doing and I have not been able to do so with the
14:43:22 time so far.
14:43:25 So I still want to get the community involved.
14:43:27 Because ultimately what this is leading to, the
14:43:30 community really needs to be a part of it.
14:43:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You are about to be approved for
14:43:36 second reading and be done with it.
14:43:37 >>GWEN MILLER: In a one is opposing you.
14:43:40 >>> Okay.
14:43:40 >>GWEN MILLER: What are you doing?
14:43:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just remind us.
14:43:45 >>GWEN MILLER: What are you doing?
14:43:47 >>> It's a mixed use community.

14:43:49 We are going to put some residential facility along
14:43:51 with commercial.
14:43:54 It's going to have what we call some community -- we
14:43:59 want to put something for people in the community to
14:44:03 go.
14:44:04 And like relaxation, you know, for a coffee house.
14:44:11 Clubs.
14:44:11 That kind of stuff.
14:44:12 Commercial property.
14:44:14 The residential part, we are working on town homes.
14:44:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Let me ask you a question.
14:44:19 A few months ago you spoke about some property so you
14:44:21 can have an asset, a one way in and one way out.
14:44:25 >>> That is not true, council.
14:44:28 The one way in and one way out is not true.
14:44:30 >>GWEN MILLER: It was not true and you had a dirt road
14:44:35 beside the house to get down to those properties?
14:44:37 >>> What we are planning there, this is something
14:44:41 completely knew, and that's why I want the community
14:44:44 involved.
14:44:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Are you going to put driveways through?
14:44:47 >>> Yes.

14:44:47 >> You have to buy those properties to get out on
14:44:49 34th street.
14:44:50 How are you going to get in and out thereof?
14:44:52 >>> We have spoken to the owners of the project.
14:44:57 >> They are going to sell you the property?
14:44:58 >>> Yes.
14:44:59 >> Do you have an agreement with that yet?
14:45:02 >>> Yes, we have.
14:45:03 >> In writing?
14:45:05 >>> Are you talking about the actual agreement?
14:45:07 >> Yes.
14:45:07 >>> No.
14:45:09 >> No.
14:45:09 So you have not already bought the property.
14:45:14 I understand you were going to talk to the community.
14:45:17 >>> No, we have not bought the property yet.
14:45:20 >> You said you have already bought the property.
14:45:22 You haven't bought the property.
14:45:23 You need to go through an arterial street to go
14:45:26 through there and you don't have one.
14:45:28 >>> I'm not following what you're saying.
14:45:30 >> Can you get out on 34th street?

14:45:33 >>> No.
14:45:34 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
14:45:35 Right.
14:45:37 On a dirt road beside the house to get back on that
14:45:40 property?
14:45:41 >>> No, we cannot get out --
14:45:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Right.
14:45:45 You need to go back and talk with that community and
14:45:47 come back again.
14:45:49 Because I'm not going to support it.
14:45:52 Because only one way to go beside a single-family home
14:45:56 and people each and every day have to go beside the
14:45:59 street.
14:46:00 >>> You can get in --
14:46:01 >> Yes, from Martin Luther King.
14:46:03 >>> No, you can get out right now.
14:46:07 There's a right-of-way in the back of this property
14:46:08 that leads out.
14:46:12 >> I don't see that.
14:46:14 >>> It's right here.
14:46:15 >> But I am not going to support.
14:46:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Madam Chair, if I could grab the

14:46:19 gavel because you are deeply involved.
14:46:20 It would be better for the record.
14:46:23 Why don't you go ahead and finish your presentation,
14:46:26 and then council will speak to this.
14:46:29 >>> Well, to be honest with you, council, I am not
14:46:31 prepared to speak on this.
14:46:32 Last time I was here, last year, and the last time I
14:46:35 was here, Madam Chairman told me she -- her exact
14:46:38 words she couldn't see it.
14:46:40 >> How much additional time would you like, sir?
14:46:42 >>> 90 days.
14:46:45 >> Move to continue for 90 days?
14:46:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have a motion.
14:47:01 Is there a second?
14:47:04 >> Second.
14:47:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We are looking for a date.
14:47:11 October 18th 9:30 a.m.?
14:47:17 9:30.
14:47:18 All in favor?
14:47:19 Opposed?
14:47:21 (Motion carried)
14:47:22 We'll see you then, sir.

14:47:23 Meet with the community.
14:47:23 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to item 106.
14:47:26 A continued public hearing.
14:47:28 We need to swear in people.
14:47:29 Anyone here to speak on item 106 to 116, would you
14:47:34 please stand and raise your right hand.
14:47:49 (Oath administered by Clerk).
14:47:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: As a reminder, please state your name
14:47:52 when you have been sworn in.
14:47:53 >>JAMES COOK: Land Development Coordination.
14:47:54 I have been sworn.
14:47:55 Petitioner is requesting to vacate the south five feet
14:47:58 of second Avenue running from 32nd street to 34th
14:48:01 street and lying.
14:48:12 To the east of 34th street.
14:48:14 Second Avenue to the north.
14:48:16 32nd street to the west.
14:48:18 Petitioner is requesting the south five feet.
14:48:21 Currently it's a 6-foot right-of-way.
14:48:26 This is a shot looking west from 34th street up to
14:48:29 the properties to the south side.
14:48:35 This is 2nd Avenue looking east towards 34th

14:48:38 street.
14:48:39 Petitioner's property is on the right-hand of the
14:48:42 photograph.
14:48:45 This is looking adjacent to the petitioner's property
14:48:47 along the side.
14:48:50 Approximately five feet off the building front there.
14:48:52 The whole length of this property.
14:48:58 The petitioner's abutting property.
14:48:59 Just for point of reference, this is a grid.
14:49:04 Everything across is previous right-of-way that has
14:49:08 been vacated in the area.
14:49:09 As you can see 2nd Avenue only runs from 34th
14:49:12 street to 31st street.
14:49:14 Like I said, an existing 60-foot right-of-way, so
14:49:16 vacating 5 feet will bring it down to 55 feet, which
14:49:18 still meets our minimum requirements.
14:49:20 Staff has no objections.
14:49:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:49:30 >>> Ernie Willhite. Fuzzy buddies.
14:49:34 I have been sworn in.
14:49:35 I am just asking for five feet.
14:49:37 We are building and expanding our business.

14:49:40 And we need five feet in order to build a canopy over
14:49:45 the existing recreation area for the dog.
14:49:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:49:49 wants to speak on item 105 -- 106?
14:49:54 >> Move to close.
14:49:55 >> Second.
14:49:55 (Motion carried).
14:49:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Do we have an ordinance?
14:49:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move an ordinance vacating closing
14:50:04 continuing abandoning certain right-of-way all that
14:50:07 portion of 2nd Avenue lying south of east 3rd
14:50:09 Avenue north of east 1st Avenue, east of 32nd
14:50:13 street and west of north 34th street in orange
14:50:16 wood park subdivision, a subdivision in the City of
14:50:18 Tampa, Hillsborough County, Florida, the same being
14:50:20 more fully described in section 2 hereof providing an
14:50:23 effective date.
14:50:25 A.
14:50:25 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:50:26 (Motion carried)
14:50:27 We need to open 107.
14:50:29 >> So moved.

14:50:30 >> Second.
14:50:30 (Motion carried).
14:50:32 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
14:50:38 I have been sworn.
14:50:41 On the case WZ 07-03, if I can, please.
14:50:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A little louder please, Barbara.
14:50:55 Thank you.
14:50:56 >>BARBARA LEPORE: On WZ 07-03, has not certified.
14:51:01 I would like for your view, please.
14:51:29 The petitioner is requesting 2(APS) for sell of beer
14:51:33 and wine at the location of 3415 west Bay to Bay
14:51:38 Boulevard.
14:51:38 The sale of alcohol will be incidental to the food
14:51:43 preparation.
14:51:44 At this time, the business is located on the corner of
14:51:50 Concordia.
14:51:52 The business is to the west side of the CG.
14:52:03 1500 square feet of the area.
14:52:08 I have pictures of the site.
14:52:11 This is the east corner.
14:52:27 The business is operating the west section.
14:52:35 This is the location, wet zoning, which is marked in

14:52:41 yellow.
14:52:42 About 1500 square feet.
14:53:00 The wet zoning will be in this location.
14:53:10 >>GWEN MILLER: We want to check and see if there's any
14:53:13 opposition.
14:53:14 Is there anyone in the public that's going to speak on
14:53:16 item 107?
14:53:19 Petitioner, put your name on the record for us,
14:53:21 please.
14:53:23 >>> Josh FOAL, agent for petitioner.
14:53:26 I just want to explain.
14:53:27 I have been sworn, yes.
14:53:28 I wanted to explain the survey you just received.
14:53:31 As an accommodation to the neighbors, we reduced the
14:53:34 square footage of the 2(APS) application.
14:53:38 >> There's no opposition.
14:53:39 >>> But there's also another condition I promised the
14:53:41 neighborhood association I would ask.
14:53:42 They were concerned about the 2(APS) running with the
14:53:45 land, and we were amenable to limiting the APS to a
14:53:49 specified use, i.e., assembly business similar to
14:53:58 let's eat.

14:54:00 It was represented to me, the neighborhood
14:54:01 association, that we would ask City Council to do
14:54:03 that.
14:54:10 >>> To have it run with the individual tenant but you
14:54:12 could tie it to a use and I would be happy to make
14:54:14 that change and come back next week if that's the will
14:54:16 of council.
14:54:17 >>GWEN MILLER: You might object.
14:54:24 Let me hear from the officer.
14:54:28 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police.
14:54:31 We have in a objection from the police department but
14:54:34 there is one call I received from the neighborhood
14:54:36 association.
14:54:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
14:54:42 Bring it back next week?
14:54:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to continue next week with
14:54:46 direction to legal staff to incorporate the changes as
14:54:50 proposed.
14:54:52 >>MARY MULHERN: I feel bad bringing this up, but we
14:54:56 have another -- I live in this neighborhood, and
14:54:59 there's another -- there's a restaurant in our
14:55:02 neighborhood that is now having trouble because when

14:55:06 he bought it from a previous owner, she agreed to
14:55:11 conditions on the wet zoning that under that, he
14:55:17 inherited it and now he's having trouble keeping his
14:55:19 business open because of the restrictions.
14:55:21 So I think we should think about this before we set
14:55:24 these kind of restrictions on wet zoning a little more
14:55:28 than the neighborhood wants to do this.
14:55:30 Maybe we don't need to put the condition on there.
14:55:34 I mean, what if a restaurant does want to move in
14:55:36 there?
14:55:37 I mean, are we going to put people through this?
14:55:41 I don't think we should have to rethink every wet
14:55:44 zoning every time it comes up.Kert
14:55:56 Not that we are --
14:55:58 >>REBECCA KERT: I understand that concern and in this
14:56:00 particular case, what they are asking for is a 2(APS),
14:56:05 which actually allows package sales.
14:56:07 So a restaurant could never move in there without new
14:56:11 rezoning anyway.
14:56:14 Like a 7-Eleven or circle K or some other -- or beer
14:56:18 and wine store.
14:56:19 And I think one of the concerns as the neighborhood

14:56:23 was that it would turn into a strictly package store,
14:56:27 and it would be difficult to control.
14:56:28 So one of your options would be to tie it to the
14:56:31 particular use, that's going to be operating there
14:56:33 right now.
14:56:34 Therefore they could have the package sales but only
14:56:36 limited to the particular "make your meal" sort of
14:56:41 establishment.
14:56:43 >>MARY MULHERN: So essentially the next time --
14:56:45 there's not a big likelihood that if you move out it's
14:56:48 probably going because it's not working so you are not
14:56:50 going to have another "let's eat."
14:56:55 >> And they would have to apply for a brand new wet
14:56:57 zoning.
14:56:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Right.
14:56:59 And I hear what you're saying, but I think clearly
14:57:03 under this circumstance we should respect the
14:57:06 neighborhood's request for the consideration that Ms.
14:57:10 Kert spoke to.
14:57:11 There's a thing called due diligence and I can't be
14:57:15 too sorry or concerned for the future tenant of that
14:57:17 property who might fall into some mistake.

14:57:20 They have to do their due diligence.
14:57:22 They have to look at the zoning.
14:57:23 They have to look at the conditions that are on there.
14:57:25 If they screwed up, that's their problem, in my
14:57:29 opinion.
14:57:30 >>GWEN MILLER: We need a motion to continue this.
14:57:33 >> So moved.
14:57:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think my motion is already on the
14:57:38 floor.
14:57:38 My motion is to continue to one week, directing staff
14:57:40 to make the change to the ordinance.
14:57:42 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion say Aye.
14:57:44 Opposed, Nay.
14:57:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Would that appear under unfinished
14:57:48 business?
14:57:48 Or under -- is the public hearing closed? I'm sorry.
14:57:54 If the public hearing is closed, it would just
14:57:57 appear --
14:57:58 >>GWEN MILLER: We didn't close it.
14:58:00 We just continued it.
14:58:02 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Then under unfinished business.
14:58:05 Sorry.

14:58:06 Let me get clear on this.
14:58:09 I was out of the room.
14:58:10 The public hearing was not --
14:58:11 >>THE CLERK: Not closed.
14:58:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It comes back at 10 a.m.
14:58:15 Thank you.
14:58:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open item 108.
14:58:18 >> So moved.
14:58:19 >> Second.
14:58:19 (Motion carried)
14:58:20 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
14:58:41 WZ 07-56.
14:58:44 3402 east Lake Avenue.
14:58:45 Petitioner is requesting 2(APS) for sale of beer and
14:58:48 wine at the location and in conjunction with a
14:58:53 restaurant and convenience store.
14:58:57 About 2600 square feet.
14:58:59 According to the application, the sale of alcohol will
14:59:01 be incidental.
14:59:03 Petitioner is requesting a waiver to the wet zoned
14:59:06 establishment, residential establishments,
14:59:09 institutional establishments, which are located in

14:59:12 1,000 feet walking distance of this wet zone request.
14:59:20 I have some pictures of the location.
14:59:33 This is the area of the wet zone.
14:59:51 I have some pictures of the establishment.
14:59:57 This is the establishment they are requesting to wet
15:00:08 zone.
15:00:08 It looks like it will be open 24 hours.
15:00:11 Across the street, operated by the City of Tampa.
15:00:18 This is also the location of the youth center operated
15:00:21 by the City of Tampa.
15:00:23 The backyard of this property.
15:00:25 Another picture of the froth front of the wet zone
15:00:31 requested on the right side.
15:00:36 Across the street the picture.
15:00:39 On this picture you can see this is the halfway house.
15:00:45 This is the back of the property.
15:00:49 One more picture of the property, approve the wet zone
15:00:57 We have no objections.
15:01:06 >> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
15:01:26 The police department has no objections to this wet
15:01:28 zone.
15:01:29 Currently the owner of these establishments, which is

15:01:32 the island grill restaurant and VIRGA's lounge, is
15:01:38 currently under investigation by the City of Tampa
15:01:40 police department, and the department of alcohol,
15:01:43 tobacco.
15:01:49 Mr. Vergo a year ago had a conditional license to
15:01:55 operate a mom and pop 2(COP-R) restaurant.
15:01:58 During my routine investigation of the new piece of
15:02:01 property, which is the store on the corner, I observed
15:02:06 this sign outside reading Vergo's lounge which is a
15:02:11 clear violation of what council had originally given
15:02:14 as far as their wet zoning.
15:02:18 On the property for spirits, liquors, hard liquor.
15:02:26 Because the property is owned by this gentleman, he
15:02:28 also owns the store on the corner.
15:02:32 It's nothing to do with Kizzie Marshall.
15:02:38 She's kind of caught in the middle of this thing.
15:02:40 Also observed there are churches close to the store.
15:02:42 And there is also a youth September area cross the
15:02:49 street.
15:02:49 There have been numerous calls for police service
15:02:53 since Vergo has gotten a wet zoning for the
15:02:58 restaurant, which caused late night drinking, more

15:03:01 problems for the police department.
15:03:02 So where we stand, objection based on these things,
15:03:08 and if you have any questions.
15:03:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
15:03:16 Ms. Kert.
15:03:17 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
15:03:18 I just wanted to remind city council that once again
15:03:21 these wet zonings run with the land and therefore the
15:03:24 owner of the property is not relevant, and whether or
15:03:27 not you think the owner is a great person who does a
15:03:30 good job or a bad person who will do a bad job, that's
15:03:33 not within your consideration.
15:03:34 I believe the police department did give to you some
15:03:39 of the compatibility issues with some of the
15:03:41 surrounding things they are requesting waivers from
15:03:43 but as far as the owner it would not be appropriate to
15:03:46 base your decision on that.
15:03:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Are you the petitioner?
15:04:01 >>> I'm Kizzie Marshall.
15:04:05 I'm leasing at 3402 east Lake Avenue.
15:04:13 When we came to this, like I said, we came, we leased
15:04:16 the property from Hopkins, we didn't know that he was

15:04:21 actually the person taking responsibility for the wet
15:04:24 zoning application, putting our money for the survey,
15:04:33 and the wet zoning application itself, we are
15:04:41 basically looking to get our foot in the door, and to
15:04:47 expand our business to make it for the community
15:04:50 itself.
15:04:51 It's not only about the liquor.
15:04:52 It's just about, you know, making a business for
15:04:59 ourselves.
15:04:59 So we really have no relationship except the fact that
15:05:02 he is our landlord.
15:05:04 And that's pretty much with him.
15:05:10 We didn't know anything about what is wrong, what's
15:05:14 not right, what his business is, and the property
15:05:16 itself.
15:05:17 All we are doing is simply in our little 3402, now,
15:05:21 property itself.
15:05:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
15:05:25 wants to speak on item 108?
15:05:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question for the staff,
15:05:32 and that is, if the condition says it's not supposed
15:05:35 to be a lounge, and it's painted on the building, is

15:05:40 that germane to our --
15:05:45 >> Next door.
15:05:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That wasn't clear to me.
15:05:48 I'm sorry.
15:05:49 >>REBECCA KERT: That was on the property next door and
15:05:51 I'm not sure if this is the appropriate time to deal
15:05:53 with that.
15:05:54 I do know they are doing an investigation in that, and
15:05:56 TPD is involved in the establishment next door.
15:05:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But that's not what we are talking
15:06:00 about?
15:06:02 >>REBECCA KERT: That's not, no.
15:06:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
15:06:06 That's on our screen and that was unclear.
15:06:09 Thank you very much for that clarification.
15:06:21 >> (off microphone)
15:06:31 >>> My name is Linda Copeland.
15:06:34 I have been in the area going on 19 years.
15:06:37 We have always had problems.
15:06:39 The city makes me do things, alley clean-up, beer cans
15:06:45 and all of this stuff.
15:06:46 And I don't think it's fair to me.

15:06:49 When I want something done, I can't get it done and I
15:06:52 think it's wrong to put that in our area.
15:06:55 Thank you.
15:06:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
15:06:56 Next.
15:07:01 >>> Good afternoon, council.
15:07:04 My name is Betty Wiggins with East Tampa business and
15:07:08 civic association.
15:07:09 2814 north 22nd street.
15:07:11 And I have been sworn.
15:07:15 President mark ham Berg and vice-president Copeland
15:07:21 waited as long as they could but they couldn't wait
15:07:23 any longer so we do have three of us left.
15:07:25 And we are here to say, and we would have waited all
15:07:28 day and all night.
15:07:30 We are here to say that we are adamantly opposed to
15:07:33 this wet zoning at this location for the following
15:07:36 reasons, and this is a letter that you received from
15:07:39 our president that I would like to read it into the
15:07:42 record.
15:07:42 Number one, a wet zoning already exists in the same
15:07:46 building under the same roof, and we see a second wet

15:07:50 zoning, albeit a take-out business, will not be in the
15:07:53 best interest of the community.
15:07:54 We are concerned about the status of compliance of the
15:07:57 existing business, although you said this is not the
15:08:01 issue now, it is because it's under the same owner,
15:08:05 and the same building, which was grant add 2(COP) wet
15:08:09 zoning in conjunction with the, quote, restaurant, but
15:08:12 as you saw, the sign is not it's being advertised as a
15:08:17 lounge.
15:08:17 I think there's a difference.
15:08:19 We understand that both businesses are operating under
15:08:22 this same ownership, and I just said we want to ensure
15:08:25 that there is continued scrutiny by city personnel,
15:08:28 and cognizant law enforcement agencies, and that there
15:08:32 is accountability as required under our ordinances.
15:08:36 Our organization reminds you, council, of the
15:08:38 sensitive location of this establishment in that it is
15:08:41 in close proximity to the youth education center, the
15:08:46 youth education center, a daycare center, and spoke to
15:08:51 that, several churches, convenience store, service
15:08:54 station, which also sells alcoholic beverage.
15:08:58 Finally, in opposing this request for yet another wet

15:09:01 zoning at this location, we respectfully seek
15:09:06 assurances that not only you deny this request, that
15:09:11 not only you deny this request, but that you also seek
15:09:16 some answers to the questions about the compliance of
15:09:20 the existing business in that location.
15:09:26 Laura fuller, our immediate past president, and Emma,
15:09:30 one of our PDs, would like to say a word.
15:09:32 Thank you.
15:09:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Is that the same Betty P. Wiggins
15:09:40 that I remember?
15:09:43 >>> Betty P. Wiggins.
15:09:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I remember 19 --
15:09:54 >> Don't go there.
15:09:54 [ Laughter ]
15:09:57 >> When I introduced you, as a council member for a
15:10:04 period of months, I said Ms. Betty Wiggins.
15:10:07 And she said, no, Ms. Betty P. Wiggins.
15:10:12 I never forgot that. I'm a good student.
15:10:14 >>> My name is Laura Fuller.
15:10:16 My address is 3604 east Lindell Avenue.
15:10:21 I have been sworn.
15:10:23 I have been a resident of that area for over 40 years.

15:10:26 I live in the vicinity of this address at 3402 east
15:10:32 Lake Avenue.
15:10:33 Across the street from there is the NFL Jackson
15:10:39 Heights youth center.
15:10:41 Miss Linda did from the daycare center is about two
15:10:43 blocks from there.
15:10:44 There's several churches in the vicinity.
15:10:47 There are two wet zoning facilities in the area.
15:10:51 The service station across the street, and adjacent to
15:10:54 the building that this application is for.
15:10:59 As a resident, and as a member of the East Tampa
15:11:03 business and civic association, I oppose this wet
15:11:06 zoning.
15:11:14 >>> My name is Emma Hendricks.
15:11:17 I have been sworn.
15:11:18 I have lived in the neighborhood for 50-some years.
15:11:25 I guess maybe about two years ago, kind of cleaned up
15:11:30 that corner, and certainly I wouldn't want to go back
15:11:32 to being what it was.
15:11:35 I object to this becoming a wet zone.
15:11:37 I know we approved Mr. Vergo to have alcohol in this
15:11:47 vicinity.

15:11:47 It has been clean because I pass it all the time.
15:11:51 Day, evening, night, to see if anything is going on.
15:11:54 But knowing this community like I do, if there's
15:11:58 another wet zoning on that corner, it's going to go
15:12:01 back to the same filth, and I'm tired of coming out
15:12:05 there, and you're tired of seeing the groups out there
15:12:08 and having to call them repeatedly.
15:12:13 Wet zoning for 3402 east Lake Avenue.
15:12:25 Thank you.
15:12:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Next?
15:12:26 Would anyone else like to speak?
15:12:28 >>> My name is Jennifer Henry. Yes, I have been sworn
15:12:32 in.
15:12:34 I am part owner of 3402 convenience store, and I just
15:12:39 feel like everything else that's going on.
15:12:45 Yes, there is a gas station selling liquor.
15:12:47 I felt if you didn't want it to be sold had that area
15:12:50 at all, period, you should have just said no at all,
15:12:53 now.
15:12:54 If it's been there for that long, why stop us from
15:12:56 doing it?
15:12:57 We are just trying to make a living for ourselves, you

15:13:00 know.
15:13:01 Anything that goes on around there, we are always
15:13:04 like, no, get away from our property, you know.
15:13:08 We keep our property clean.
15:13:09 I don't know of any beer and liquor and all that being
15:13:12 outside of our property.
15:13:13 I have never seen it.
15:13:15 I don't understand why we can't, you know, do what we
15:13:19 are trying to do.
15:13:22 There's already a wet zoning there.
15:13:23 He's having his issues, but it doesn't have anything
15:13:26 to do with us.
15:13:27 Then they already are selling liquor, beer, wine
15:13:30 across the street.
15:13:31 That's not going to stop.
15:13:32 It's still going to be -- I don't know if we'll say,
15:13:37 no, we got to get your beer and wine out of there,
15:13:40 too.
15:13:41 Same thing is going to be happening for us, is we can
15:13:43 try to keep ours more clean.
15:13:44 Don't drink beer on our property.
15:13:49 If we see it happening, report it.

15:13:50 Just like we have done anytime.
15:13:52 If we see things, we report it.
15:13:54 We don't want anything bad going around our, you know,
15:13:57 location.
15:13:58 We don't want anything bad for us.
15:14:00 We just want a chance.
15:14:04 It's like, I don't know.
15:14:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
15:14:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Probably want to close the public
15:14:17 hearing.
15:14:17 >>GWEN MILLER: We have rebuttal.
15:14:21 Do you have a question?
15:14:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: No.
15:14:24 I was going to move for denial.
15:14:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
15:14:26 Do you want rebuttal?
15:14:29 >>> Going back again to what he was saying, we are
15:14:35 trying to have our business. The main focus is not
15:14:40 for the liquor.
15:14:41 Across the street they close at ten, the lounge, which
15:14:44 is not even a lounge, the restaurant itself.
15:14:50 We didn't even know they were selling liquor until I

15:14:52 heard about the lounge going on.
15:14:53 When the lounge, I guess, the restaurant is happening,
15:14:59 which is like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, again, as you
15:15:02 said, we don't allow them to congregate in front of
15:15:05 our building.
15:15:06 You know, if you are in front of our building, get
15:15:09 away from my building from carrying on noise and
15:15:11 everything.
15:15:12 TPD says across the street at the BP practically all
15:15:16 day.
15:15:16 You will never see a cop not across the street at the
15:15:19 BP gas station.
15:15:22 So there's not like -- I don't see how they can say
15:15:24 that any type of activity is going on when they are
15:15:29 constantly there.
15:15:33 We see them 24 hours.
15:15:34 So we make sure of that and we are taking care of
15:15:38 making sure that they are not having the community
15:15:40 just trying to congregate around us, say, oh, yeah,
15:15:45 they are there for us.
15:15:46 It's not about that.
15:15:48 We are trying to do food.

15:15:51 We just want to make it a store for the community to
15:15:53 come and get what they need at a reasonable price, and
15:15:58 just support the community and make at better
15:16:00 community than what it is.
15:16:01 Like I say, we make sure we keep it clean.
15:16:04 And an opportunity.
15:16:11 It's a convenience store.
15:16:13 In the back there's clothes.
15:16:15 And we are trying to expand to get food and a deli.
15:16:20 So sticking in those frames to do that.
15:16:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Any questions, council members?
15:16:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
15:16:28 >> Second.
15:16:28 (Motion carried).
15:16:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chairman, with all due respect
15:16:33 for these young ladies here, and I wish you well on
15:16:36 the convenience store part of it, but I have been in
15:16:39 this area 27 years, and I will tell you that East
15:16:42 Tampa is just now beginning to revitalize and come
15:16:45 back.
15:16:47 I will tell you that when on the other end you
15:16:51 couldn't get down hardly 34.

15:16:57 By the way, I have been across the street is a service
15:17:01 station.
15:17:02 Because you have one, two, three, four churches within
15:17:10 a thousand feet of this location.
15:17:11 You have the NFL youth sent area cross the street.
15:17:16 You have the friendship Baptist daycare center.
15:17:19 You have a daycare center almost about a block behind
15:17:21 there.
15:17:22 So just too many daycare centers.
15:17:23 Too many churches within this vicinity.
15:17:25 So I'll move for denial.
15:17:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Without seconding that, if I could,
15:17:31 Mr. Scott, with the new statutory requirement, with
15:17:33 your acceptance, this doesn't meet chapter 3, 370-A-6
15:17:41 of our code with regard to the waive of the separation
15:17:43 distance.
15:17:44 There's been no evidence justifying the waiver of the
15:17:47 requested separation requirements from the various
15:17:49 churches, daycare, youth center, and existing wet
15:17:53 uses.
15:17:56 If you will accept that as friendly amendment to your
15:17:58 motion, I'll second it.

15:17:59 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
15:18:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:18:02 (Motion carried)
15:18:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Again, I ditto with what the
15:18:08 reverend said.
15:18:09 I think it's wonderful you ladies are starting that
15:18:11 business but I don't think wet zoning is going to work
15:18:13 in that location.
15:18:16 >>> Thank you.
15:18:17 >>GWEN MILLER: You're welcome.
15:18:18 Item number 109.
15:18:23 >>BARBARA LEPORE: This item 109, the petitioner filed
15:18:28 the request before the wet -- for the wet zoning and
15:18:31 scheduled the wet zoning.
15:18:32 The application.
15:18:38 They would like to be heard --
15:18:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
15:18:46 >> Second.
15:18:46 (Motion carried).
15:18:46 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open 110.
15:18:54 >> So moved.
15:18:55 >> Second.

15:18:55 (Motion carried)
15:19:12 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
15:19:13 I have been sworn.
15:19:14 At the location 2505 South MacDill Avenue, requesting
15:19:19 3 PS for sell of beer, alcohol and wine and liquor, in
15:19:28 conjunction.
15:19:33 The sale of alcohol will be, the area contains about
15:19:38 2200 square feet.
15:19:40 The wet zone is incidental.
15:19:47 There are wet zoned establishments as well as
15:19:50 residential establishments.
15:19:52 Therefore the applicant is requesting the waiver as to
15:19:56 the distance separation.
15:19:58 I have some pictures of the location.
15:20:14 They are requesting wet zoning for South MacDill
15:20:25 Avenue.
15:20:27 It was to be from this location.
15:20:34 There is the picture of the wet zone requested to be.
15:20:41 Across the street, there is residential property.
15:20:45 The picture of the parking lot and the MacDill
15:20:53 location.
15:20:55 Land development has no objection.

15:20:58 This application has been sent to Tampa Police
15:21:01 Department for their review.
15:21:07 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police
15:21:09 department.
15:21:09 I have been sworn.
15:21:10 Police department has no objection to this wet zoning.
15:21:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
15:21:18 >>> Good afternoon.
15:21:20 I am from Fowler White, 501 East Kennedy Boulevard.
15:21:23 I have been sworn in.
15:21:25 I would like to thank staff and Barbara LePore for
15:21:28 helping with us the application.
15:21:28 We reviewed the staff report.
15:21:30 We agree with the findings.
15:21:32 We are requesting a 3 PS wet zoning application for
15:21:35 2507 South MacDill Avenue for off-site consumption, we
15:21:43 are requesting classification in conjunction with the
15:21:46 existing business on the property.
15:21:49 We would like to enhance the catering service so that
15:21:52 we can provide alcohol beverage services at event
15:21:56 catered events such as weddings, parties, things of
15:22:00 that nature.

15:22:00 We are requesting two waivers. The first waiver is
15:22:03 1,000 feet restriction of the residential portion of
15:22:09 the property.
15:22:10 With me I have Richard Genta, Laura Genta, Wilson, the
15:22:18 cater on the property if you have any questions.
15:22:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
15:22:21 wants to speak on item 110?
15:22:26 >> Move to close.
15:22:26 I'm sorry, I didn't see you coming.
15:22:29 >>> My name is Alysse Lauper and I have been sworn in.
15:22:36 I have lived 29 years on the property adjacent to the
15:22:39 property that would like this wet zoning changed.
15:22:42 Over the years, I have seen many changes to the
15:22:45 property that has affected my home, which that's what
15:22:49 it is.
15:22:49 I believe that City Council may have already received
15:22:51 some letters from some of my neighbors, particularly
15:22:55 Mr. Dingfelder, who due to the length of the hearing
15:23:02 could not stay.
15:23:03 But I would like to show you some pictures if I may.
15:23:08 The residential aspect of how close this is to our
15:23:11 home.

15:23:28 This picture is Palmira Avenue, to the back of the
15:23:33 property where the property is located where they want
15:23:36 to dispense the alcohol, sell the alcohol.
15:23:38 As you can see, this driveway right here is the
15:23:45 driveway, within 20 feet of a residential home.
15:23:57 That is right behind that property.
15:24:02 I would also like to show you the viewpoint from the
15:24:06 parking lot.
15:24:12 This home here is my home.
15:24:14 You can see it from another viewpoint.
15:24:19 This abuts up against my backyard.
15:24:22 That does concern me.
15:24:27 Other issues that I would like to present to you.
15:24:36 I don't feel like this is necessary.
15:24:39 And I would just like to make a couple points, if I
15:24:42 may.
15:24:44 There are children that live east of MacDill
15:24:46 Avenue.
15:24:47 And they walk to Plant High School.
15:24:49 And I believe they are walking across this route is
15:24:52 unacceptable for a young person to see in the
15:24:55 neighborhood.

15:24:56 The hours, especially in distribution here, are not
15:25:01 compatible with the existing homes adjacent to it,
15:25:08 from the patrons and cars would be unacceptable.
15:25:12 Sorry, I'm very nervous.
15:25:14 And there's another liquor store across the street so
15:25:17 there's no need for this to have another liquor store
15:25:20 outlet.
15:25:21 And with the entrance on Palmira Avenue for the
15:25:25 package, a package liquor store is within 20 feet of
15:25:29 the residential neighborhood.
15:25:32 MacDill Avenue and the side street, including
15:25:36 Palmira in this area are overtaxed by traffic.
15:25:39 This will just attract more people and bring more
15:25:43 traffic, and I lived in this home and God willing I
15:25:47 plan to die in this home.
15:25:49 I would like to keep my neighborhood safe and clean.
15:25:51 I don't want it to turn into another Beef O'Brady's
15:25:55 and the problems it brings to the neighborhood.
15:25:58 I appreciate very much your time.
15:26:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Walker, you mentioned Beef
15:26:06 O'Brady's.
15:26:07 My recollection as another one of your neighbors is

15:26:09 that's about, what, two or three blocks up the street?
15:26:13 >>> Yes, sir.
15:26:13 I believe it is three or four blocks from where I am.
15:26:18 >> And what is the problem with Beef's?
15:26:21 >>> All you need to do is pop by in the evening. The
15:26:23 parking along the street, the people congregating in
15:26:25 the streets, urinating in the bushes.
15:26:28 It's just not something that you want in your
15:26:30 neighborhood, and, you know, you want the neighborhood
15:26:37 to be safe and home for your family to be raced --
15:26:43 raise dollars.
15:26:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone else that would like to
15:26:46 speak?
15:26:47 Petitioner, do you want rebuttal?
15:26:55 >>> I just want to make it perfectly clear what we are
15:26:57 doing here on the property.
15:27:01 There is an outside catering service.
15:27:03 There is nothing going on on-site.
15:27:05 There is no congregation of the public here.
15:27:06 She runs and off-site catering service.
15:27:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I was going to ask to explain to
15:27:14 the viewers that are watching what a 3 PS is.

15:27:21 It's not for whiskey, a beer or glass of wine.
15:27:27 Am I correct?
15:27:28 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
15:27:29 And you are correct.
15:27:30 A 3 PS allows for only off-site consumption.
15:27:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It means you can store there and
15:27:36 put in the vehicle that you are transporting to the
15:27:38 site of which that event is going to be.
15:27:41 >>> Absolutely.
15:27:41 What will go on after today would be no different than
15:27:43 what's gone on previously where people who come to the
15:27:47 establishment order the catered services off site, so
15:27:50 that wherever the wedding is held, wherever the
15:27:52 graduation party is held, they will indicator food,
15:27:58 and granted they will offer the alcoholic beverages
15:28:00 then.
15:28:00 It is an incidental use entirely.
15:28:02 There will be no on-site consumption whatsoever for
15:28:05 this property.
15:28:06 It will be no different than what's been going on
15:28:08 there for years as part of the catering services.
15:28:15 >>REBECCA KERT: With a 3 PS, it is allowed to have

15:28:18 sales of alcoholic beverages on the property.
15:28:20 There's just no consumption on the property.
15:28:22 But they can have sales there.
15:28:24 What I hear the applicant saying is they are -- that
15:28:27 may be a nuance, whether they are going to have sales
15:28:31 there.
15:28:31 I think that may be something with their state license
15:28:33 that requires them to do that.
15:28:35 That kind of triggers where the sales is.
15:28:37 And it may be possible, you know.
15:28:45 It would have to be incidental to the primary use.
15:28:47 But you may consider conditioning this to a more
15:28:51 specific use of the applicant.
15:28:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think that's exactly where this
15:28:58 needs to go.
15:28:59 Right now, I believe an ABC liquor on Kennedy
15:29:01 Boulevard probably has the same 3 PS.
15:29:04 So that would be a great concern to Ms. Walker and all
15:29:08 the neighborhood.
15:29:08 I'm not saying that's what you are anticipating --
15:29:12 >> We would have --
15:29:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let me finish.

15:29:14 I think what we need to do is work with legal, just
15:29:17 like we did on the other application a few minutes ago
15:29:19 on the Bay to Bay, to restrict this to a catering
15:29:23 business for the purpose of not over-the-counter sales
15:29:28 at all, but something just to be able to take it, take
15:29:31 it out to the places where you want to serve it, and I
15:29:34 think most people are probably fine with that.
15:29:36 I know Ms. Walker --
15:29:40 >>> The ABC liquor store couldn't go in this location
15:29:42 so we are asking for waivers.
15:29:44 So the use of alcohol could be entirely different,
15:29:47 than the primary use which here is catering service
15:29:50 which is a permitting use on the land.
15:29:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I feel more comfortable
15:29:54 specifically if this petition specifically called out
15:29:57 the exact use so there wasn't any question.
15:30:00 Basically it would expire when your use expired.
15:30:03 >>> And that's fine.
15:30:04 That's what we had anticipated.
15:30:06 I wanted you to know that couldn't possibly happen
15:30:08 here.
15:30:09 Do you have any other questions?

15:30:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Other questions?
15:30:12 Do you want to close?
15:30:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you want a week?
15:30:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is it petitioner's desire then to
15:30:19 agree to have that petition put on, to limit it to a
15:30:22 catering business?
15:30:24 >>> That's fine.
15:30:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll move for continuance to one
15:30:26 week to let legal staff to work with petitioner and
15:30:30 maybe Mrs. Walker on appropriate language that
15:30:32 everybody is happy with to limit the use to the
15:30:34 catering business.
15:30:36 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
15:30:37 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
15:30:39 Opposed, Nay.
15:30:41 (Motion carried).
15:30:42 We need to open item 111.
15:30:44 >> So moved.
15:30:45 >> Second.
15:30:45 (Motion carried)
15:30:45 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Case WZ 07-97, 8210 park edge drive,
15:31:20 for consumption on premises, 2(APS), in conjunction

15:31:24 with the convenience store.
15:31:26 The wet zone area will cover about 2600 square feet.
15:31:30 According to the application, the sale of alcohol will
15:31:32 be incidental.
15:31:34 There are no other wet zoning establishments in the 1
15:31:39 that you square feet walking distance.
15:31:42 But there are institutional and residential properties
15:31:46 located within the 1,000 feet area.
15:31:49 The petitioner is requesting waivers.
15:31:57 It's located in Hillsborough County and another
15:32:04 county.
15:32:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Any chance there's no opposition?
15:32:10 >>BARBARA LEPORE: I don't know.
15:32:15 >> No opposition.
15:32:17 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
15:32:19 I have been sworn.
15:32:20 City of Tampa police department has no objection.
15:32:22 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
15:32:33 >>> My name is Richard Davis, 220 east Madison street,
15:32:37 Tampa, Florida suite 512.
15:32:39 I do have some information for purposes of the record
15:32:41 if I might.

15:32:43 And just to describe that, I have a packet for each of
15:32:46 you council members, just giving you some additional
15:32:49 information about this application.
15:32:50 I'll speak to it very briefly.
15:32:52 And also for the record, I have an original of an
15:32:55 affidavit executed by the assistant secretary of
15:32:58 circle K stores, Inc., attesting to the fact that the
15:33:02 sale of alcoholic beverages on this parcel is
15:33:04 incidental to their primary business.
15:33:19 >>> Council members, I am here this afternoon -- and I
15:33:21 have been sworn -- I'm here this afternoon on behalf
15:33:24 of circle K stores.
15:33:26 They purchased this particular location, which is an
15:33:28 existing convenience store on the corner of park edge
15:33:33 drive and Fletcher Avenue.
15:33:35 It is located in the Hidden River development of
15:33:38 regional impact, which is indicated in the materials I
15:33:42 have supplied to you.
15:33:43 It is on the page where you see a site plan entitled
15:33:47 Hidden River, with a large red arrow which point to
15:33:50 the location of this convenience store.
15:33:52 This convenience store has been in existence for

15:33:55 approximately four to five years, circle K stores
15:33:59 purchased it last December, and they are asking for
15:34:02 approval of the 2(APS) license for this particular
15:34:05 facility.
15:34:07 Let me indicate to you that we are within 1,000 feet
15:34:12 of the Lettuce Lake Park facility, maintained by
15:34:16 Hillsborough County.
15:34:17 However, you will notice in the material I have
15:34:18 supplied to you, there is a small picture showing the
15:34:22 facility cross-hatch, the actual entrance to that park
15:34:26 facility.
15:34:27 It's out on Fletcher Avenue, and further to the west
15:34:30 of the site.
15:34:32 Also, for sake of orientation, this particular parcel
15:34:35 is contained within the Hidden River development of
15:34:37 regional impact, but is across the street from the
15:34:42 Tampa Telecom park development of regional impact,
15:34:45 which there is in the city of Temple Terrace.
15:34:47 The residential uses involved are across the street
15:34:51 from this particular site directly south.
15:34:53 It is a condominium complex.
15:34:56 And council members, so you will know, I sent out

15:34:59 notices to approximately, I think, roughly 186 owners
15:35:04 in that condominium complex, because we touch their
15:35:08 property on the other side of Fletcher Avenue, and to
15:35:10 the best of my knowledge, council members, we have not
15:35:13 received any opposition from that location.
15:35:15 Again, this is incidental to the primary use of this
15:35:18 particular facility.
15:35:20 This particular facility from a land use compatibility
15:35:23 perspective has been there for approximately four to
15:35:26 five years, and is a permitted use within the context
15:35:29 of the Hidden River development of regional impact,
15:35:32 and their approved zoning.
15:35:34 I certainly stand ready to respond to any questions
15:35:37 that you may have, but we would respectfully request
15:35:41 your consideration of this and certainly would like an
15:35:43 opportunity to rebut any additional testimony that may
15:35:46 be received today.
15:35:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
15:35:49 wants to speak on item 111?
15:35:58 >>> Good afternoon.
15:35:59 I have been sworn.
15:36:01 My name is Mike Blue.

15:36:04 I am the park manager of the county park.
15:36:08 I am representing Hillsborough County and the county
15:36:10 Parks Department.
15:36:11 The circle K store is right next to the park.
15:36:15 The biggest problem we have in our park are he
15:36:20 inebriated people.
15:36:21 The attendance at this particular park is over 1
15:36:23 million annually.
15:36:25 In March of '92 and again in December of '93.
15:36:30 Previous council members voted unanimously to deny
15:36:34 previous owners wet zoning at this site.
15:36:37 We would appreciate if you folks will do it, also.
15:36:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question, sir.
15:36:43 This site is not currently wet zoned?
15:36:47 >>> No, ma'am.
15:36:48 >> That means that the he inebriated people at your
15:36:50 park are coming from somewhere else.
15:36:53 >>> It very well could be.
15:36:54 But you're opening up a door for them to come out of
15:36:56 the park, get alcohol and come back into the park.
15:37:04 It's easier, if you run out of beer, where are you
15:37:07 going to go?

15:37:08 You are going to go to the closest store.
15:37:10 And that's exactly what they do.
15:37:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
15:37:14 Petitioner, do you want rebuttal?
15:37:21 >>> Respectfully, council members, there are two
15:37:24 factors which I believe go into consideration of the
15:37:27 waiver of the distance requirement.
15:37:29 Certainly, first and foremost is the fact that the use
15:37:32 is incidental to the primary use on this site, and
15:37:35 clearly in this context we have submitted evidence
15:37:38 attesting to that incidental use.
15:37:43 Now as to the consideration of whether or not
15:37:44 alcoholic beverage purchased in this sit site will be
15:37:48 used in the park, certainly there will be the sell of
15:37:50 alcoholic beverages on this site should you so approve
15:37:52 it.
15:37:53 But it is important to note from a land use
15:37:55 perspective and access perspective that there is no
15:37:58 direct access from this site through to the park.
15:38:01 You have to go out onto Fletcher Avenue, drive down
15:38:04 Fletcher Avenue, through the park, go through the gate
15:38:07 on the park before you can use the park facilities.

15:38:09 I would contend, council members, that there is a
15:38:12 sufficient land use separation within the context of
15:38:16 this application to protector otherwise mitigate any
15:38:20 potentially adverse effects that might be felt within
15:38:23 the park facility from the purchase of alcoholic
15:38:25 beverages on this site.
15:38:27 And there's another very important factor.
15:38:29 Certainly, we have heard the argument that the
15:38:33 critical consideration here is a timing consideration,
15:38:36 that someone might be able, if they were run to --
15:38:40 going to run out of alcoholic beverages purchase them
15:38:42 more quickly on this site and get back into the park.
15:38:45 Council members, I would respectfully submit to you
15:38:47 that that's not a pervasive argument in this context
15:38:50 because this location was set in the middle of two
15:38:53 large developments of regional impact.
15:38:55 This particular convenience store does serve a number
15:38:57 of residents in that neighborhood, that live in that
15:39:00 area, which is consistent with the location of the
15:39:02 convenience facility, with a 2(APS) license in this
15:39:06 particular location, and certainly we want to ensure
15:39:12 that all the rules and standards of the 2(APS) license

15:39:15 are followed, and certainly circle K with a long
15:39:19 history, the long history that it has, stands by its
15:39:23 record in terms of following all the applicable rules
15:39:26 concerning the sale of alcoholic beverages.
15:39:28 Again, council members, we believe that we are
15:39:30 adequately separated from the park facility by virtue
15:39:33 of the access consideration to insulate this
15:39:37 particular use from adverse.
15:39:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: As the previous gentlemen spoke the
15:39:46 manager of the Lettuce Lake Park question, the
15:39:48 objection that you raise here, sir, is that one from
15:39:52 yourself or one from your immediate supervisors or
15:39:54 county commissioners?
15:39:55 >>> That's from Hillsborough County Parks Department.
15:39:57 >> Not from the county commissioners?
15:39:59 >>> No, sir.
15:40:01 But they are all going by the zoning.
15:40:03 The zoning was designed to protect people in the
15:40:05 parks.
15:40:09 If I could say, there was two other entrances that
15:40:12 they could have put this convenience store originally.
15:40:15 >> Well, I can't go back to originally.

15:40:16 We could have put the park somewhere else originally,
15:40:19 too.
15:40:19 We are not going to discuss all that.
15:40:21 But what I am saying, I just wanted that for the
15:40:23 record.
15:40:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have two questions.
15:40:25 One is for you, sir.
15:40:27 Would this be the closest convenience store to the
15:40:30 park?
15:40:31 >>> Yes, ma'am.
15:40:31 >> Okay.
15:40:32 Thank you.
15:40:32 And my other questions for Mr. Davis.
15:40:36 Mr. Davis, I think this is tough.
15:40:41 I really don't know what the right thing to do here
15:40:43 is.
15:40:43 So my question to you is, would you entertain
15:40:46 modifying your request to a conditional use, which
15:40:49 would mean that you come back here after a year, and
15:40:51 we could see how it's going?
15:40:53 That way, we would have an opportunity to see if --
15:40:59 >>> An increase?

15:41:01 I know it's been a very long day for you.
15:41:04 Give me just ten seconds and I can inquire.
15:41:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Before you retire, Barbara, put the
15:41:12 map on.
15:41:13 I'm a little confused as to where the Lettuce Lake
15:41:16 entrance is.
15:41:16 I know Lettuce Lake entrance is on Fletcher.
15:41:22 >> Councilman Dingfelder, if you would go to the third
15:41:25 piece of information in my handout, it is a small
15:41:28 aerial that shows park edge and shows the entrance
15:41:31 into the Hidden River project.
15:41:34 And if you go, and looking at the aerial --
15:41:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can you just point to that on
15:41:40 there?
15:41:41 >>> Here's the entrance to the Hidden River project.
15:41:43 Here is the structure itself.
15:41:44 And then you have to the west, to this location, is
15:41:49 the entrance to the park, I believe.
15:41:52 That's the entrance to the park.
15:41:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So that's why it says zero feet.
15:41:56 Zero feet to the park because effectively your
15:41:58 property abuts the county property?

15:42:01 >>> Yes.
15:42:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have one other question.
15:42:08 I don't know if it's Mr. Davis or the other gentleman.
15:42:12 Where is the next existing beer and wine package store
15:42:16 on Fletcher?
15:42:21 Not that you frequent it.
15:42:22 It's your district.
15:42:24 There's.
15:42:25 >> There's a shell gas station.
15:42:27 >>> On the corner of 56th and Fletcher Avenue?
15:42:30 Probably two miles away, sir.
15:42:32 Two miles.
15:42:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Davis, are you good with that?
15:42:37 >>> Approximately at the intersection of 56th with
15:42:39 the intersection of Fletcher Avenue.
15:42:42 I can inquire with my council members about it.
15:42:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So when you say you are here on
15:42:56 behalf of the Parks Department, indirectly then, you
15:43:00 are here on behalf of the county administrator.
15:43:02 >>> Yes, sir.
15:43:12 >> Council members, we certainly will abide by an
15:43:15 amendment to this particular application to a

15:43:17 conditional use that would have a year examination
15:43:20 period, and then we would come back and reexamine the
15:43:23 compatibility consideration at that point.
15:43:26 That's how strongly we feel that this is an
15:43:28 appropriate use of this location.
15:43:29 But we will certainly abide by that.
15:43:31 And if it will require me to amend the application to
15:43:34 accomplish that, we will certainly work with your
15:43:36 staff to do that.
15:43:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15:43:41 It's a difficult choice either way.
15:43:42 But what happens here is that we are going to base
15:43:45 something on something that we don't have any records
15:43:47 on.
15:43:47 I don't know how many individuals are going to lettuce
15:43:50 park that are he inebriated.
15:43:52 I don't know.
15:43:53 I won't be able to keep a score card and say you have
15:43:56 ten more this year, 20 more this year.
15:43:58 I won't be able to tell the alcohol comes from this
15:44:01 location on 56th street. Once coming in there off
15:44:04 of 56th street or from their own truck.

15:44:06 These cars are going in, I assume they are not being
15:44:09 checked.
15:44:10 That's an assumption on my part.
15:44:11 I don't think they give you a breatholyzer test to get
15:44:14 in the park.
15:44:14 For all these things, we are looking into the future.
15:44:19 We aren't going to have any real hard facts to make a
15:44:22 determination, no matter what we do is wrong, with a
15:44:26 yes or no.
15:44:26 And these are the things that if I am going to go to
15:44:28 the park and I was a drinker, or say if I was a
15:44:33 drinker, I am going to have, you know, whatever I
15:44:35 drink, that I don't have to leave the park.
15:44:38 If I want to get drunk in a park, I'm not going to go
15:44:42 out and say, I got to go to the shell or 56th
15:44:46 street and bring my juice with me.
15:44:51 Notice I know the street lingo.
15:44:53 But what I'm saying, I don't know how to determine a
15:44:56 year from now who is right and who is wrong and how
15:45:01 many citations will be given.
15:45:03 One?
15:45:03 1,000?

15:45:04 100,000?
15:45:05 None?
15:45:05 I don't know.
15:45:11 >> Council member, to repeat again, I am certainly
15:45:13 willing to go down --
15:45:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand.
15:45:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern?
15:45:19 >>MARY MULHERN: It just strikes me that we just
15:45:22 recently had another wet zoning that we decided on
15:45:26 with two women in a neighborhood trying to open a
15:45:28 small business and asking for a wet zoning, and we
15:45:32 didn't offer them any conditions.
15:45:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: They were conditioned a year ago.
15:45:41 They came back again.
15:45:42 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
15:45:43 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm talking about the next door to the
15:45:46 package store, next door to the "lounge."
15:45:49 So I just think we need to be a little more
15:45:52 consistent.
15:45:53 And I would guess, I would like to follow up that you
15:45:55 might have an indication, if indeed we did, give this
15:46:00 conditional license, if there was more drinking.

15:46:03 I think the park staff -- I'm asking you for your
15:46:09 opinion on that.
15:46:10 Do you think you would be to gauge --
15:46:14 >>> We have a lot of university sales come and go.
15:46:16 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm not a drinker either but I used to
15:46:23 be.
15:46:25 Because you're not a drinker that you wouldn't be
15:46:27 going out to buy more beer.
15:46:31 Cat cattle I don't feel that we should put a condition
15:46:33 on this, because the situation with the park, like
15:46:36 Charlie said, if he's going to go in there and bring
15:46:38 his own alcohol, he's going to stay there and drink
15:46:42 it.
15:46:42 He's not going to be running out.
15:46:44 And I just can't see Charlie doing that.
15:46:47 And I don't think we should put the client through
15:46:50 this turmoil.
15:46:52 I won't support a conditional.
15:46:53 But I will support the application.
15:46:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess I was a little confused.
15:47:01 It looks like by the picture that there's an existing
15:47:03 circle K that's there.

15:47:08 Circle K and a shell.
15:47:10 >> And circle K purchased it.
15:47:14 It was a shell service station.
15:47:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The picture shows a circle K so it
15:47:19 might already be in the process.
15:47:21 >> Yes.
15:47:21 It purchased it, as I testified earlier, in December.
15:47:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You indicated in a previous
15:47:28 indication this matter, at the same location, has been
15:47:32 before this council?
15:47:38 >>> It went about TV Hillsborough County commission
15:47:40 and the commission turned it down also.
15:47:43 >>GWEN MILLER: It was a shell station?
15:47:46 >>> Yes, ma'am.
15:47:46 It was a shell station at the time.
15:47:51 >>REBECCA KERT: I hate to interrupt but an issue has
15:47:53 just come to my attention and I ask if bee we could
15:47:56 continue this and go to the next case, an issue but
15:47:59 where the county jurisdictional line is.
15:48:01 And in fact -- if it's in the county based on the way
15:48:06 the code is, they don't need a waiver and you can't
15:48:08 consider it.

15:48:11 I'm very familiar with this section.
15:48:13 We just need a moment to verify that.
15:48:16 >>GWEN MILLER: We are going to go back to item 100.
15:48:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to hold this a little bit.
15:48:24 We left on item -- 100.
15:48:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe you made a motion to open
15:48:36 the public hearing.
15:48:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Put on the record about her e-mail.
15:48:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes.
15:48:41 And that being done, I believe an e-mail is, I
15:48:49 believe, not produced presently.
15:48:52 It's in the process of being able to be produced.
15:48:54 But I believe council for the petitioner is willing to
15:48:58 go forward despite not having that e-mail presently in
15:49:01 the record or the opportunity to review it in advance,
15:49:04 based on a disclosure of council member Saul-Sena, and
15:49:08 giving that opportunity to rebut that.
15:49:14 I believe it's the petitioner's decision to waive the
15:49:17 necessity of doing that, to allow that to happen, and
15:49:21 is willing to proceed despite that.
15:49:23 Is that correct?
15:49:28 >>ANDREA ZELMAN: 501 East Kennedy, Fowler White.

15:49:33 >>> You have been sworn?
15:49:34 >>ANDREA ZELMAN: I have been -- no, I have not been
15:49:37 sworn.
15:49:39 (Oath administered by Clerk).
15:49:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You heard my representation to
15:49:49 council about disclosure and you are willing to go
15:49:51 forward at this time?
15:49:52 >>ANDREA ZELMAN: Yes.
15:49:53 I would like to speak to that if I may.
15:49:56 Let me just say first, this is obviously very
15:50:00 unexpected.
15:50:01 The first that I had heard, or anything of these
15:50:04 allegations was when Ms. Saul-Sena brought it up, and
15:50:09 I want to say on the record that I believe it's
15:50:11 totally inappropriate for the City Council to be
15:50:14 considering these matters under the record, as I
15:50:18 believe your lawyers will advice you, the issue is not
15:50:20 whether one was telling the truth or someone else was
15:50:26 telling the truth but whether this particular rezoning
15:50:28 is approvable under your code and the comprehensive
15:50:30 plan and the applicable case law.
15:50:32 Having said that, we have been scurrying, and I did

15:50:35 call the client hop is out of town and he sent me a
15:50:41 text message, which I have no idea how to forward,
15:50:44 because I am not under the age of 30, but I can read
15:50:48 it into the record if I may.
15:50:49 It says:
15:50:50 Please see my e-mail.
15:50:52 Copy to Linda Saul-Sena, as I believe he meant as
15:50:55 well.
15:50:56 I have concerns in writing that Francine does not work
15:51:01 for me.
15:51:02 And I will be glad to let someone see this.
15:51:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Put the telephone under oath.
15:51:10 [ Laughter ]
15:51:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll take your word for it.
15:51:20 >>ANDREA ZELMAN: Text messaging.
15:51:22 I would also like to read into the record, and I do
15:51:24 have copies to pass out as well.
15:51:25 This is an e-mail that Francine Mosano sent to Rachel
15:51:32 booth at Wilson Miller at 3:07 today.
15:51:36 City Council after confirm the issue with you Brian
15:51:38 Karsky, I can say that this firm has not been in the
15:51:42 past and is not currently under contract.

15:51:46 If anyone wishes to speak with me personally, I will
15:51:49 be happy to have a conversation with them at any time.
15:51:52 In addition, I spoke to City Council the evening of
15:51:54 the approval of the Meridian project, as a resident
15:51:57 and as a board member of the Channel District council.
15:52:00 I believe that the comments made by the individuals
15:52:03 stating this firm is under contract with CDAG, my
15:52:09 position on his project, and I'll pass these out.
15:52:23 I only copied pages one, it's one of two.
15:52:26 But I'll show you page two is just the end of the
15:52:28 confidentiality notice.
15:52:32 Let me go ahead and pass those.
15:52:46 And if I may, since did you reopen the public hearing,
15:52:48 I would also like to address the issue that Ms.
15:52:53 Mulhern raised and I believe was a change of heart as
15:52:59 to whether the amenities being provided justifies
15:53:02 density being asked for.
15:53:04 And I would like to direct you first to the analysis
15:53:06 of Cathy Coyle which was in the record.
15:53:09 And she's here and I'm sure she could reiterate, but
15:53:12 she reviews the comprehensive plan and the applicable
15:53:14 code provisions, and found that indeed the bonus

15:53:20 density was justified in this case.
15:53:22 And I would just like to remained council because it's
15:53:24 been a long time, that the only things provided are
15:53:27 not just the LEED certification, you know, which we
15:53:32 talked about, which were several million dollars, over
15:53:36 $5 million, but also $159,983 in off site
15:53:43 transportation, with cash payment that my client is
15:53:46 required to make to the city, that is more than any
15:53:49 other, to our knowledge, more than any other developer
15:53:51 in the Channel District has ever been required to pay.
15:53:55 Again, the commitment on the site plan, the
15:53:59 recertification at a minimum, which again, I think we
15:54:02 established at the last hearing, this is the first
15:54:05 residential project in the City of Tampa, to make that
15:54:08 commitment.
15:54:12 Approximately 4,270 square feet including benches,
15:54:15 trash receptacle, lighting, with the added
15:54:20 improvements in maintenance.
15:54:21 That totals over $300,000.
15:54:23 That includes a 22-foot wide sidewalk along Meridian.
15:54:28 Ground floor retail space at a cost of approximately
15:54:32 $370,000.

15:54:33 A commitment to provide a minimum of $115,000 worth of
15:54:38 public art, enhance pedestrian streetscape including
15:54:42 maintenance, which is estimated at $597,837, and other
15:54:49 amenities to which we didn't even quantify or ask for
15:54:52 credit, but that includes a garage facade which is
15:54:56 covered so you don't see a parking garage that looks
15:54:58 like a parking garage, it actually has units on the
15:55:00 outside of it, and the architect showed you that at
15:55:03 the hearing.
15:55:05 Parking, almost 100 spaces in excess of code, which in
15:55:09 an area like the Channel District is significant,
15:55:11 since parking is an issue there.
15:55:13 A green roof, so on and so forth.
15:55:17 I don't know if you want me to take the time.
15:55:19 I believe I did this at the last hearing.
15:55:21 But at the last hearing, I started four projects in
15:55:26 Channelside that were awarded bonus densities.
15:55:30 With amenities that are, in my opinion, even less than
15:55:34 what we are providing.
15:55:35 And I think -- I'm concerned that for some reason,
15:55:42 this project being singled out, when what it's asking
15:55:47 for is really consistent with what other projects in

15:55:49 the district have approved.
15:55:51 I'll stop there and be glad to answer any questions.
15:55:53 >>GWEN MILLER: Questions by council members?
15:55:55 We need to close the public hearing again.
15:55:56 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
15:55:58 >> Second.
15:55:58 (Motion carried).
15:55:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to officially
15:56:03 apologize to Francine.
15:56:08 The information I got I trusted.
15:56:10 I'm glad to hear that said at the hearing and not
15:56:16 because she was paid.
15:56:18 I think it's underscored something we need to address
15:56:22 about whether or not a person speaking as an
15:56:24 individual or as a paid professional.
15:56:28 I'm really glad to hear that.
15:56:30 I deeply apologize.
15:56:31 I have never been so happy to be wrong.
15:56:33 I really do deeply apologize.
15:56:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to adopt the following
15:56:39 ordinance upon second reading, an ordinance rezoning
15:56:41 property in the general vicinity of 211 and 227 north

15:56:45 Meridian Avenue in the city of Tampa, Florida moral
15:56:47 particularly described in section 1 from zoning
15:56:49 district classification CD 1 Channel District to CD 3
15:56:53 Channel District, retail, restaurant, office,
15:56:55 commercial, and multifamily residential, providing an
15:56:58 effective date.
15:56:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:57:01 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
15:57:04 I am still not going to support the project.
15:57:05 And the reason is, sometimes when you see things
15:57:10 built, it sort of brings it home what's being
15:57:13 projected.
15:57:14 And while previously council might have supported
15:57:21 things which I might have supported or not, this is
15:57:23 really the tallest thing being proposed.
15:57:25 And now that I am seeing how tall it is, I just don't
15:57:28 feel comfortable supporting it.
15:57:30 >>MARY MULHERN: And I just wanted to mention that it's
15:57:34 not just the tallest thing that's proposed, but with
15:57:37 the market the way it is, we don't know of the things
15:57:39 that have been proposed, and approved what's going to
15:57:42 go up there.

15:57:43 So if you look at the current -- we can only look at
15:57:46 what's currently there.
15:57:47 And it is -- they are asking for two times the
15:57:51 density.
15:57:52 So that height is very tall next door to, what is it,
15:57:56 seven story or eight-story building.
15:57:58 So I am not going to support it.
15:58:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
15:58:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I just wanted to clarify a legal
15:58:04 point.
15:58:08 And Ms. Zelman brought this up.
15:58:10 I believe the credibility, not related to Francine, I
15:58:14 trust her completely, but I believe the ability of any
15:58:18 witness is relevant in a quasi-judicial proceeding.
15:58:20 I just wanted to state that for the record.
15:58:23 Ms. Zelman indicated she didn't think it was
15:58:25 appropriate for us to be discussing that, or perhaps
15:58:27 something along those lines.
15:58:29 And I think that because we are in a quasi-judicial
15:58:33 proceeding, we sort of act like court and the
15:58:36 relevancy of credibility and witnesses I believe is
15:58:38 relevant.

15:58:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Again the con and the pro.
15:58:46 I'm the con.
15:58:47 If you come here to testify and no one else asked a
15:58:49 question, if you have an interest in that project you
15:58:51 have broken no law.
15:58:53 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
15:58:55 Vote and record.
15:59:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: And the winner is?
15:59:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I thought when they rewired this
15:59:14 would get faster.
15:59:15 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Mulhern and values
15:59:18 voting no.
15:59:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Is Ms. Kert back to give us a ruling,
15:59:24 is it in the city or the county?
15:59:30 >>> Land development.
15:59:32 It's actually within the county jurisdiction, not
15:59:34 within the city limits.
15:59:34 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
15:59:42 There has been a legal ruling on that usual you, how
15:59:45 you deal with things when they are right on the
15:59:47 jurisdictional boundary.
15:59:48 So I might ask for a little more time for her.

15:59:53 >>GWEN MILLER: We'll hold off and go to 112.
15:59:57 Need to open that.
15:59:59 >> So moved.
16:00:00 >> Second.
16:00:00 (Motion carried)
16:00:26 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
16:00:26 I am here to represent case WZ 07-98.
16:00:31 Petitioner is requesting 4(COP-X) for beer and wine
16:00:35 and liquor at the location, the sale of alcohol will
16:00:42 be incidental to the business.
16:00:45 In 1998, granted a 4(COP-X) for the portion of the
16:00:53 stadium, some portion of the stadium has granted
16:00:58 4(COP-R), 4(COP-X) with, the sale of beer and wine
16:01:02 only, portion of the stadium will allow sell of full
16:01:09 alcohol.
16:01:10 If you can look at the exhibit, which I attach, those
16:01:17 sections are clearly marked.
16:01:22 There are other wet zoned areas at the location,
16:01:30 residential and institutional uses.
16:01:32 Petitioner is requesting a waiver to the distance
16:01:36 separation.
16:01:37 Land development has no objection to the request.

16:01:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Any questions?
16:01:43 TPD?
16:01:45 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police
16:01:47 department.
16:01:48 City of Tampa police department has no objection to
16:01:50 this wet zoning.
16:01:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Never been called to the stadium?
16:01:55 [ Laughter ]
16:01:57 Petitioner?
16:02:03 >>> Good afternoon.
16:02:04 John Marshall.
16:02:05 I have been sworn.
16:02:06 Holland and Knight LLP, 100 N. Tampa Street, suite
16:02:11 4100 here in Tampa, here on behalf of Levy restaurant,
16:02:16 and with me is Cindy Lindsburg, and George Scott, both
16:02:20 with Levy restaurant.
16:02:23 We also have John LaRocca, consulting and also Bryan
16:02:33 Ford, Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
16:02:35 Currently, the wet zoning does allow for beer, wine
16:02:38 and liquor at Raymond James stadium, but in 1998, it
16:02:43 was limited to the club and the three seating areas,
16:02:48 as well as the restaurant areas of Raymond James.

16:02:52 We have had good success with that.
16:02:53 About 15,000 fans that currently have the ability to
16:02:56 have beer, wine and liquor served to them by levy
16:03:01 restaurants.
16:03:01 They are come back today, because they know that this
16:03:04 can be done well and it has been done well.
16:03:07 And they look forward to giving that opportunity to
16:03:11 the other fans in the general areas of the stadium.
16:03:14 If you have any questions, we are of course here to
16:03:16 answer them for you.
16:03:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You mentioned the club area, the
16:03:23 restaurants, and all that.
16:03:25 I was here in '98.
16:03:27 I forget what the vote was but I'm sure it passed by a
16:03:31 large margin.
16:03:32 But what I see here in the diagram is 200 acres of
16:03:35 land that's right across the street from a city park,
16:03:41 mainly Al Lopez park.
16:03:43 Am I correct?
16:03:43 Why are we going to the northern part of the center
16:03:46 part from, let's say, Ohio to MLK?
16:03:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And Mr. Marshall, we are looking at

16:03:56 this map.
16:03:57 >>> Let me describe that quickly.
16:03:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's not what we have here.
16:04:03 >>> The wet zoned area is what's on the overhead.
16:04:05 Just the footprint of the stadium.
16:04:07 We are not changing the boundaries at all.
16:04:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: What are you doing then?
16:04:12 >>> Simply right now, basically asking for removal of
16:04:15 the conditions that just say that we can sell liquor
16:04:19 in the general area of the stadium.
16:04:21 We are not going outside the footprint of the stadium.
16:04:23 Only footprint of the stadium.
16:04:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have no problem with that,
16:04:27 Mr. Chairman.
16:04:27 I'm sure that's a fact.
16:04:29 But what is presented to us in yellow is half the City
16:04:32 of Tampa.
16:04:36 >>> I think what's being shown there is the parent
16:04:39 parcel.
16:04:39 But the wet zone cut-out only what is in the wet zone
16:04:44 survey, which is the footprint of the stadium.
16:04:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Marshall.

16:04:51 Any questions?
16:04:52 Anybody here in the public like to speak for or
16:04:54 against this item?
16:04:56 >> Move to close.
16:04:57 >> Second.
16:04:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion and second to close.
16:04:59 All in favor of the motion say Aye?
16:05:01 Okay.
16:05:02 Would anybody like to read that ordinance?
16:05:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'll read the ordinance.
16:05:08 Move an ordinance repealing ordinance number 98-192
16:05:12 making lawful the sale of beverage containing alcohol
16:05:15 regardless of alcoholic content, beer, wine and
16:05:16 liquor, 4 (COP-X), from a certain lot, plot or tract
16:05:23 located at 3501 Tampa Bay Boulevard, described in
16:05:28 section 3, certain restrictions as to distance based
16:05:31 upon certain findings, repealing all ordinances in
16:05:34 conflict, providing an effective date.
16:05:35 I would like to add an asterisk saying this in essence
16:05:39 is the footprint of the stadium, not one inch outside
16:05:43 the stadium. If they are drunk before they -- if they
16:05:46 drink anywhere, they are drunk before they get in so

16:05:50 you aren't going to have much sales.
16:05:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion and second.
16:05:56 Motion passes unanimously.
16:05:57 Item 113.
16:05:59 It's open.
16:06:08 >> It's withdrawn.
16:06:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Make a motion to strike that from
16:06:11 the agenda.
16:06:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Number 113, a letter from mark S.
16:06:16 Smith, of print, Inc., requesting said petition be
16:06:20 withdrawn.
16:06:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion and second to strike.
16:06:24 (Motion carried).
16:06:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Oh's motion and to open number 114.
16:06:30 (Motion carried).
16:06:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 114 is open.
16:06:33 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
16:06:35 The next case is WZ 07-102.
16:06:38 The request is for a 2(COP-R) for the location 506
16:06:43 North Tampa Street.
16:06:44 The petitioner is requesting to sell beer and wine in
16:06:49 conjunction with a restaurant at the location 506

16:06:57 North Tampa Street.
16:06:59 There will be approximately 100 square feet of outside
16:07:02 area.
16:07:05 According to the application, there will be 42 seating
16:07:08 area, 42 seats, and 30 of them will be located inside
16:07:11 the building.
16:07:14 If the wet zone will be approved, 2500 square feet.
16:07:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Barbara, is there anybody here in
16:07:22 objection?
16:07:27 >>> This is the area for the wet zone.
16:07:32 >>> Don Miller, City of Tampa police department.
16:07:34 We have no objection.
16:07:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Petitioner?
16:07:39 >>> I'm John LaRocca, Murphy LaRocca, agent, for
16:07:43 petitioner.
16:07:44 I have been sworn.
16:07:44 We respectfully request you approve this wet zoning
16:07:47 for a new restaurant to be located at the northwest
16:07:50 corner of Tampa and Madison.
16:07:53 The proprietor of the proposed restaurant, Gerard, is
16:08:00 here but it's a restaurant with associated beer and

16:08:03 wine.
16:08:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to close.
16:08:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is there nub here to speak for or
16:08:09 against?
16:08:09 Motion to close.
16:08:10 All in favor say Aye.
16:08:11 Okay.
16:08:16 Read the ordinance.
16:08:17 Madam clerk?
16:08:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move to adopt the following
16:08:21 ordinance, making lawful the sale of beverage
16:08:25 containing alcohol more than 1% by weight wines
16:08:30 regardless of alcoholic content 2(COP-R) for
16:08:32 consumption with a restaurant, certain lot, plot tract
16:08:36 of land at 506 North Tampa Street Tampa, Florida more
16:08:39 particularly described in section 2 therefore waiving
16:08:42 certain restrictions as to distance based upon
16:08:44 findings providing for repeal of all ordinances in
16:08:47 conflict, providing an effective date.
16:08:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion and second.
16:08:50 All in favor?
16:08:51 Opposed?

16:08:52 (Motion carried).
16:08:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open 115.
16:08:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
16:08:57 Motion and second.
16:08:59 1151 now open.
16:09:03 115 is now open.
16:09:16 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
16:09:18 Case number WZ 07-106 for the location at 3301 South
16:09:24 Dale Mabry Highway.
16:09:26 Petitioner is requesting 2(COP-R) sale of beer and
16:09:29 wine in conjunction with the restaurant.
16:09:33 The restaurant will be located on only one floor of
16:09:38 the building, and requesting to wet zone.
16:09:44 The wet zone would contain approximately 2200 square
16:09:48 feet.
16:09:48 The establishment has 58 seating inside, 12 of them
16:09:52 will be outside.
16:09:53 Petitioner is requesting waivers for the distance
16:09:56 separation from the wet zone institutional.
16:10:01 Land development has no objection.
16:10:03 Just to make sure this is the area in question, the
16:10:08 wet zone which is much smaller than the other man

16:10:12 which I gave to you.
16:10:15 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
16:10:17 We have no objections.
16:10:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
16:10:21 Petitioner?
16:10:22 >>> My name is Mike Walsh.
16:10:26 I have been sworn in.
16:10:27 Thank you for having me here.
16:10:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Are you aware of any objection?
16:10:31 >>> No.
16:10:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If you are here to speak on this
16:10:34 item raise your hand in the back.
16:10:36 >> Move to close.
16:10:37 >> Second.
16:10:37 (Motion carried).
16:10:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion passes.
16:10:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move an ordinance making lawful the
16:10:56 sale of beverages containing alcohol more than 1% by
16:11:00 weight and not more than 14% by weight and wines
16:11:01 regardless of alcoholic content, beer and wine,
16:11:04 2(COP-R) for consumption on the premises only in
16:11:08 connection with a restaurant business establishment on

16:11:11 that certain lot, plot or tract of land located at
16:11:14 3301 South Dale Mabry Highway, Tampa, Florida, as more
16:11:18 particularly described in section 2 hereof, waiving
16:11:20 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
16:11:23 findings, providing for repeal, or ordinances in
16:11:27 conflict, providing an effective date.
16:11:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have a motion and second.
16:11:31 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
16:11:32 Any opposed?
16:11:35 Okay.
16:11:36 Let's go back to 111 and see if we can wrap that up.
16:11:39 >>REBECCA KERT: We have confirmed that the
16:11:42 Hillsborough County park is in fact within
16:11:44 Hillsborough County and pursuant to the regulations,
16:11:47 you cannot go beyond your borders and therefore they
16:11:49 are not required to get a waiver.
16:11:53 They still are required to get a waiver from the
16:11:54 residential property, and if this passes I will need
16:11:58 to review the ordinance to reflect the appropriate
16:12:01 waiver.
16:12:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But Mrs. Kert, we are able to
16:12:05 listen to testimony by people in the county, right?

16:12:08 Because they are neighbors?
16:12:10 >>REBECCA KERT: Well, really, what the city has argued
16:12:14 previously is that the city's regulations on the land
16:12:16 use area are to protect the City of Tampa, and
16:12:20 therefore, that's the way your code is written, that's
16:12:24 fine.
16:12:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
16:12:33 Mr. Davis, I think for purposes of procedure, do you
16:12:37 want to go ahead and continue rebuttal or wrap it up?
16:12:44 Now that we got the opinion maybe there's additional
16:12:46 comment.
16:12:47 >>> I just want to clarify one point for the record.
16:12:49 The representative for circle K that is in attendance
16:12:52 with me today had advised me it was her belief the
16:12:54 store has only been in existence for four to five
16:12:58 years when they purchased that, and I made that
16:13:00 representation earlier F.there is evidence that it has
16:13:02 existed longer, we just wanted to make sure that that
16:13:07 we recognize that on record.
16:13:08 But certainly, council members, to the extent of the
16:13:10 opinion just rendered, we would formally amend our
16:13:13 application for the request for a waiver relating to

16:13:18 being the park property, since that in a longer falls
16:13:21 within the jurisdiction, according to our opinion, no
16:13:27 longer falls within the jurisdiction of the City
16:13:30 Council.
16:13:30 And we would amend our request accordingly and
16:13:33 certainly recognize whatever time that we needed to
16:13:36 amend the ordinance to reflect that.
16:13:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Quick question.
16:13:41 So this has been a circle K for four to five years?
16:13:45 >>> No.
16:13:46 It's only been a circle K only since December.
16:13:48 That's when they closed.
16:13:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Any other comments from council?
16:13:54 Other comments from legal?
16:13:55 I think the amendment in regard to withdrawing the
16:13:57 waiver can be done without any further delay or
16:14:01 anything like that.
16:14:02 Okay.
16:14:05 Well, I guess we'll go ahead and take a motion.
16:14:10 Move to close?
16:14:11 >> I move to close.
16:14:12 >> Second.

16:14:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion to close and second.
16:14:15 (Motion carried).
16:14:20 >> Do you want it brought back?
16:14:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll entertain a motion from
16:14:23 council on the substantive issue.
16:14:31 >>REBECCA KERT: If you do want to amend I will have to
16:14:35 correct that.
16:14:35 I can bring that back next week.
16:14:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
16:14:39 Ms. Saul-Sena.
16:14:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm going to make a motion for
16:14:45 denial.
16:14:45 I think that there is in a public necessity to make
16:14:51 this available for sales and so I make a motion for
16:14:55 denial.
16:14:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I believe that Mr. Shelly might
16:15:00 have a comment.
16:15:01 Perhaps you want to elaborate on your motion for
16:15:03 denial.
16:15:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll see if I have a second.
16:15:06 >>MARY MULHERN: I second.
16:15:09 >>GWEN MILLER: You have a second from Ms. Mulhern.

16:15:12 >>REBECCA KERT: If I could remind you how you all have
16:15:15 set up to evaluate wet zoning.
16:15:18 It is the Pinellas County's initial burden to show
16:15:20 they meet the criterion in the codes, to get the
16:15:23 waivers. That would be whether the sale of alcoholic
16:15:25 beverages is incidental.
16:15:27 They allege it's a convenience store.
16:15:28 Therefore the sales are incidental.
16:15:30 That shifts the burden back to City Council to
16:15:32 demonstrate in the record, and you do have to spell
16:15:34 out exactly what you're relying upon.
16:15:37 The substantial property evidence that shows that it's
16:15:41 adverse to the public interest, and it's reversible
16:15:46 error if you do not specifically list the facts in
16:15:48 your motion.
16:15:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: To elaborate, I guess the two issues
16:15:55 are whether or not the affidavit stating that it was
16:15:59 incidental, in the testimony that you heard, is
16:16:02 competent, substantial evidence, and the other is
16:16:04 whether or not there is any evidence in the record as
16:16:07 to the adverse impact relating to the approval of
16:16:13 this.

16:16:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I believe the petitioner is
16:16:16 requesting a waiver, that because it was within 100
16:16:19 feet of residentially owned property.
16:16:25 Kert considerate they still do need a waiver from the
16:16:28 residential property.
16:16:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So, therefore --
16:16:32 >>REBECCA KERT: You will need to identify with
16:16:34 competent evidence that it was presented in this
16:16:36 regard today that shows that the granting that waiver
16:16:40 would be adverse to the public interest and that's a
16:16:42 waiver to the residential.
16:16:46 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Where is the residential
16:16:47 property?
16:16:48 >>> 7855 Fletcher Avenue.
16:16:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We can have discussion.
16:16:52 If it's a question we need to reopen.
16:16:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Specifically looking on page 2 of
16:16:57 the report from Barbara, and it says the residential
16:16:59 property within a thousand feet is called the preserve
16:17:02 of Temple Terrace condominiums at 7855 Fletcher.
16:17:07 I'm on the right page.
16:17:14 Madam Chairman?

16:17:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'd like to make a substitute
16:17:17 motion.
16:17:18 I don't want to muddle the water any more on these
16:17:20 things.
16:17:21 I agree with Mrs. Saul-Sena to a point.
16:17:23 I don't have that.
16:17:24 But I agree with the Parks Department.
16:17:26 But I'm not going to be able to justify who is
16:17:29 bringing in the liquor.
16:17:30 We have a problem there.
16:17:32 And it's not this location.
16:17:34 So substantial evidence, I can't base it on that
16:17:37 because this location is not creating any problems
16:17:39 that we know right now.
16:17:41 And the facts that are presented are what you call
16:17:43 facts at the time.
16:17:45 I made that one up, Mr. Dingfelder.
16:17:47 Fact at the time is that right now, we can't
16:17:50 substantiate that that location is causing a problem
16:17:53 in any park, including the one lettuce park.
16:17:56 So I am going to move for approval of this and see
16:17:59 where it goes.

16:18:01 >> Just as a point of order, Mr. Shelby, very quickly.
16:18:04 We have -- is that a motion that's in order?
16:18:07 Because it sounds like it's complete opposite motion
16:18:10 to Ms. Saul-Sena's and she has a second.
16:18:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern.
16:18:17 >>MARY MULHERN: On your advice I would like to hear
16:18:20 what you say about this.
16:18:24 I think that I need to remove my second from that.
16:18:26 Because we don't have -- we can't base competent,
16:18:30 substantial evidence.
16:18:31 We can't base it on the testimony from the county
16:18:35 park.
16:18:36 Is that correct?
16:18:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You cannot base it on the fact that
16:18:41 it's adverse to the county park.
16:18:43 That is correct.
16:18:43 >>MARY MULHERN: Then can I withdraw my second?
16:18:47 I don't feel like we saw any evidence that there was
16:18:50 any -- in fact, you had a letter from one of the
16:18:56 neighbors.
16:18:58 I think you had a letter from one of the neighborhood
16:19:01 associations saying --

16:19:02 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If it is your position, if it is your
16:19:05 position in fact your second was based on --
16:19:13 >>MARY MULHERN: I withdraw my second.
16:19:14 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion to approve item 15,
16:19:18 WZ 07-106.
16:19:22 That's the wrong one.
16:19:23 111.
16:19:24 I have been here so long.
16:19:26 It's item number 111.
16:19:28 File number WZ 07-97.
16:19:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Actually we'll need to direct staff
16:19:33 to come back in a week to bring the amended petition.
16:19:38 We have a motion.
16:19:39 Is there a second?
16:19:41 >> Second.
16:19:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have achieved recognition by the
16:19:47 petitioner that they were willing to go along with the
16:19:50 conditional, which would give us a year to see if this
16:19:53 caused a problem.
16:19:55 So based on the petitioner's willingness to go with
16:19:58 that conditional, I would like to ask Mr. Miranda if
16:20:02 you would allow the petitioner to change this to a

16:20:04 request for a conditional.
16:20:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't mind asking the petitioner
16:20:08 but how am I going to prove that point?
16:20:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: May I suggest that there are
16:20:15 residential -- the petitioner has to request aware of
16:20:19 1,000 feet because they are within 100 feet of a
16:20:23 residential use.
16:20:24 If there's a problem, probably we'll hear from the
16:20:27 folks who live 100 feet away within a year when they
16:20:30 come back for permanent zoning, and just give us a
16:20:34 year to see if it causes any problems.
16:20:37 If it doesn't cause any problems, then the petitioner
16:20:41 won't have a problem come back in a year and
16:20:43 requesting a permanent liquor zoning.
16:20:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Saul-Sena is asking for
16:20:49 information from the petitioner.
16:20:51 And I believe we need to reopen if we want to hear
16:20:53 that information.
16:20:54 So do you want to move --
16:20:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to reopen.
16:21:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is there a to reopen?
16:21:05 Second to reopen.

16:21:06 All in favor.
16:21:07 Any opposed?
16:21:10 >>> Council members, first, two points I am making in
16:21:13 relation to this issue.
16:21:14 Yes, I went on record 20-some odd minutes ago with our
16:21:18 willingness to accept a conditional approval.
16:21:20 I am not going to retract that.
16:21:22 We believe strongly that this is an appropriate
16:21:23 location.
16:21:25 If that is the will of council, then I stand by my
16:21:28 earlier comments.
16:21:29 I will say that a comment I made earlier, and this is
16:21:34 reiterating an earlier comment, not new evidence.
16:21:37 I did send out -- and I could determine it
16:21:40 specifically, but I believe there was approximately
16:21:41 186 notices to the condominium complex across the
16:21:45 street and did not hear any adverse comments.
16:21:48 But, certainly, council members, it would be
16:21:50 disingenuous for me at this point to say, no.
16:21:54 We made that point, we were willing to accept the one
16:21:57 year.
16:21:57 If that's the will of council, certainly we'll go down

16:22:00 that path.
16:22:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Miranda, I believe off motion
16:22:06 on the floor to continue for a week with the intent of
16:22:09 approving it with a week.
16:22:11 If you want to change that you can change it.
16:22:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I think we need to go back.
16:22:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You can do it.
16:22:19 If you are going to leave it alone, leave it alone.
16:22:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I can do that but once the hearing
16:22:25 is closed.
16:22:26 We can reopen it.
16:22:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You can eve R either leave it or and
16:22:31 continue it.
16:22:32 Again things -- once you close it, the sums is the
16:22:37 notice to people is that it will not be reopened when
16:22:39 they come back and there will be no further
16:22:41 discussion.
16:22:43 It's council's pleasure.
16:22:45 I'm just counseling that you have a notice problem
16:22:47 when you come back and tell the hearing is closed and
16:22:50 you have an additional issue and you want to reopen
16:22:52 the hearing.

16:22:53 It's problematic.
16:22:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Leave it open.
16:22:56 Mr. Miranda, do you accept that?
16:22:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, I move to leave it open.
16:23:00 And what's your direction?
16:23:01 The direction is to make the motion for approval based
16:23:06 on a one-year conditional from the time that the
16:23:08 license is issued to the 365 days run concurrent with
16:23:12 that date.
16:23:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: There's a slight change.
16:23:15 Is your second still good?
16:23:17 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I'll stay with it.
16:23:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion and second.
16:23:20 (Motion carried) we'll be back in a week with the
16:23:24 modified language.
16:23:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: 10 a.m., time certain?
16:23:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
16:23:31 Need a second.
16:23:34 >> Second.
16:23:34 (Motion carried).
16:23:38 >>> Council members, that's 10 a.m.
16:23:40 >>GWEN MILLER: 10 a.m

16:23:41 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
16:24:05 WZ 07-108, for 410 South Howard Avenue.
16:24:11 Petitioner is requesting 2(COP) for the sale of beer
16:24:14 and wine, and on the premises and outside the
16:24:19 premises.
16:24:19 This location has been approved for the wet zoning
16:24:22 last year 2006, 223.
16:24:27 It was granted a one-year conditional wet zoning to
16:24:30 the location.
16:24:32 And invited the petitioners to appear before City
16:24:39 Council, before the City Council, the conditional wet
16:24:43 zoning would remain open.
16:24:48 And
16:24:57 There are 50 seats that are located inside the
16:25:00 building.
16:25:01 The petitioner is requesting the waiver separation to
16:25:05 the wet zone establishment, residential
16:25:09 establishments.
16:25:11 Land development has no objection to it.
16:25:13 Just on the picture if you can see the area, this is
16:25:16 the area for 2(COP).
16:25:24 Land development has in a objection to the request.

16:25:26 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
16:25:28 We have no objection to this wet zone during this
16:25:30 year.
16:25:30 That is temporary, and no alcohol violations within
16:25:34 that year.
16:25:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
16:25:39 >>> My name is Richard AZAR.
16:25:42 I have been sworn.
16:25:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's see if anyone wants to speak on
16:25:46 item 116.
16:25:47 Okay.
16:25:51 Go ahead and speak and then you can come back for
16:25:53 rebuttal.
16:25:55 Are you in favor?
16:25:56 Oh, you're in favor?
16:25:57 Okay.
16:26:03 >>> Walter Crumbley, president of the Courier City
16:26:07 Oscawana homeowners association.
16:26:12 I have been here so long I have been sworn in three
16:26:13 times
16:26:16 Usually, I'm down here squawking and complaining about
16:26:19 something.

16:26:19 But today I wrote a letter to the land use
16:26:24 coordination board, and it may be a part of your
16:26:27 packet, waiving technical objections to this petition
16:26:31 being heard today.
16:26:32 And I also indicated that the neighborhood got
16:26:37 together, and we considered this petition, and we
16:26:42 decided the oasis is a good neighbor.
16:26:46 We haven't had any problems.
16:26:48 We had no complaints.
16:26:49 The people there like to go there and eat.
16:26:52 It's a nice, quiet restaurant, quite unlike what goes
16:26:56 on across the street.
16:26:58 And we would like to see a lot more of these and a lot
16:27:01 less of the other.
16:27:02 And we would ask that you give them a permanent
16:27:05 license.
16:27:06 Thank you.
16:27:08 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
16:27:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
16:27:11 >> Second.
16:27:11 (Motion carried).
16:27:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have to say, first of all, I want

16:27:17 to really congratulate the neighborhood person who is
16:27:22 willing to say something positive.
16:27:23 I want to congratulate the property owner who I know
16:27:26 has expanded their property, an outdoor seating area
16:27:32 and is well considered by the neighbors and I think
16:27:34 this is a win-win.
16:27:35 I think it's helpful to council to have an opportunity
16:27:40 to give somebody a year to see how it goes.
16:27:42 Because initially, there was opposition to this.
16:27:46 And let the petitioner approve that they are a good
16:27:53 neighbor.
16:27:53 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
16:27:55 (Motion carried)
16:28:01 >> Move to approve an ordinance repealing ordinance
16:28:07 more than 1% by weight not more than 14%, beer and
16:28:12 wine 2(COP) for consumption on the premises and in
16:28:15 sealed containers for consumption offer premises at or
16:28:17 from that certain lot, plot or tract of land located
16:28:23 at 410 South Howard Avenue, Tampa, Florida as more
16:28:25 particularly described in section 3 hereof waiving
16:28:28 certain restrictions of business based on certain
16:28:30 findings providing for repeal of all ordinances in

16:28:34 conflict, and congratulate you and appreciate your
16:28:36 patience to wait the year, and I'm glad everything
16:28:39 worked out.
16:28:42 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
16:28:43 (Motion carried)
16:28:47 We are going to go to information from council
16:28:49 members.
16:28:49 Mrs. Saul-Sena, you have nothing.
16:28:50 Mr. Miranda?
16:28:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Very swiftly and briefly.
16:28:54 I'm still concerned.
16:28:55 We are still in a drought area no matter how much rain
16:28:59 we got lately it's not enough to bring back everything
16:29:01 we got.
16:29:02 We are still running way below.
16:29:04 On the week of 7-11, Wednesday, there was 44 million
16:29:09 gallons.
16:29:09 We are still using 8 to 10 million more gallons a day
16:29:13 and that should not happen when so please restrict
16:29:17 yourself to that.
16:29:19 You are going to pay for it later.
16:29:20 And that's what the problem is now.

16:29:22 We are creating a problem for ourselves.
16:29:25 Secondly, the city of Miami.
16:29:29 How about that?
16:29:30 They got classified in the small city category, which
16:29:35 means that they don't get any cutbacks.
16:29:37 Isn't that nice?
16:29:46 >> Mark oh Rubio's home turf.
16:29:49 >> Mark oh Rubio saved his own city.
16:29:51 And I would like this council to ask the chair to
16:29:54 write a letter on behalf of this council saying that
16:29:57 when and how soon is Miami going to be given the same
16:30:02 preferential treatment that the rest of us big cities
16:30:04 have received?
16:30:08 >> Second.
16:30:08 (Motion carried).
16:30:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Who are you writing it to?
16:30:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Speaker of the House.
16:30:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I forgot.
16:30:20 I wanted to bring back number 14. The memo from Mrs.
16:30:22 Miller said the Hyde Park historic district, that they
16:30:25 work on it and they would have something by November.
16:30:28 So I would like to move to put this on our agenda for

16:30:32 November 1st for a report on how we are doing with
16:30:35 the Hyde Park historic district, conservation overlay.
16:30:40 >> I have a motion and second.
16:30:41 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
16:30:42 (Motion carried)
16:30:44 Anything else Mr. Miranda?
16:30:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, ma'am.
16:30:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Two things.
16:30:48 One, council members, I had inquired of your schedules
16:30:52 in regard to Finance Committee meeting in August, the
16:30:58 mayor will be presenting her budget to us.
16:31:02 What would that be, the 9th, August 9th, I
16:31:05 think, is a Thursday.
16:31:06 And at that point we'll have the budget books.
16:31:09 We'll have time to digest them.
16:31:12 I have suggested, if you want meetings in August,
16:31:14 prior to September hearings, just informal budget
16:31:18 hearings, opportunity to ask staff questions, whatever
16:31:21 we want to do that's appropriate, for the budget
16:31:25 process.
16:31:25 We could do that probably August 16th, which is a
16:31:30 Thursday, which is right now an open day on our

16:31:33 calendar, because Florida League of Cities day, but
16:31:36 I'm not sure if anybody goes to Florida league, so
16:31:41 that might be an appropriate day, and or August
16:31:43 30th in the afternoon after our council meeting.
16:31:45 And I don't think the 30th is a night meeting.
16:31:48 It's just a day meeting so we can do it in the
16:31:50 afternoon.
16:31:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I know that I won't be available on
16:31:54 the 16th but I will be here on the 30th.
16:31:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And if.
16:32:01 If we can have one, we can have two.
16:32:03 If we are going to have one we'll do it on the
16:32:05 30th.
16:32:05 If we have two we can include the 16th or another
16:32:08 date.
16:32:09 They are both Thursday.
16:32:10 The 16th is a Thursday. The 30th is Thursday.
16:32:15 I'm amenable to your suggestion.
16:32:17 >>MARY MULHERN: I may not be here.
16:32:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We'll just schedule it for the
16:32:32 30th in the afternoon at 1:30 for a finance
16:32:37 department workshop.

16:32:40 Is there a motion?
16:32:41 I'll move that.
16:32:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:32:44 All in favor say Aye.
16:32:45 (Motion carried).
16:32:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Secondly, Ms. Kert, I'm glad you're
16:32:51 still here.
16:32:52 This cross-the-border issue that just came up, and I
16:32:56 know it came up in litigation years ago, I'd like to
16:33:02 perhaps research, or if you know the answer get back
16:33:04 with us, in some future date, to research the issue,
16:33:08 and perhaps if we can enter into an interlocal
16:33:11 agreement with the county, or with the other adjacent
16:33:13 jurisdictions, if that might satisfy the court's
16:33:18 concerns, if we have an interlocal agreement with the
16:33:20 adjacent county, then maybe we can look over our
16:33:22 borders and give them an opportunity and they can look
16:33:29 over their boarders in their case.
16:33:31 I think it's important.
16:33:32 Neighbors are neighbors.
16:33:32 And they don't usually care what city or county they
16:33:35 live in.

16:33:35 They care what bar or package store or rezoning is
16:33:40 nearby.
16:33:42 So I think if you could just look into approximately
16:33:44 an interlocal agreement or any other creative solution
16:33:47 that you might want to come up with, that will be my
16:33:49 motion.
16:33:49 You have plenty of time.
16:33:50 90 days.
16:33:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
16:33:52 >>CHAIRMAN: Motion and second.
16:33:53 (Motion carried)
16:33:56 Ms. Mulhern, do you have anything?
16:34:01 Mr. Caetano?
16:34:02 Clerk?
16:34:03 >> Move to receive and file.
16:34:05 >> Second.
16:34:05 (Motion carried).
16:34:05 >>CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelby, do you have anything?
16:34:08 Okay.
16:34:08 We go to our audience portion.
16:34:12 (Audience comment off camera.)
16:47:20 (Meeting recessed at 4:47 p.m. until 5:00 p.m.
16:47:20 session.)