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Tampa City Council
Thursday, July 26, 2007
9:00 a.m. session

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[Sounding gavel]
09:07:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.
09:07:49 Chair will yield to Mr. John Dingfelder.
09:07:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Good morning, council.
09:07:54 It's my honor to introduce Ariel Haines, a plant high
09:08:01 honors graduate from last year, a member of the state
09:08:03 championship volleyball team, she'll be a sophomore
09:08:06 this coming month, she's majoring in mass
09:08:09 communications, she's a member of FI-ETA.
09:08:18 She will lead us in the invocation followed by the
09:08:21 pledge of allegiance.
09:08:23 If you can please rise.
09:08:25 >> Dear heavenly father, to God be the glory, great
09:08:28 things you have done.
09:08:29 This morning we are we truly thank you for how you
09:08:32 have blessed each one in this room.
09:08:34 We bless your holy name and praise you for your
09:08:37 presence, your power and protection.
09:08:39 We recognize and honor you as being God of all.
09:08:41 We thank you for your forgiveness when we all fall
09:08:44 short of your glory and have not lived up to your
09:08:47 expectations and potential as citizens, parents,
09:08:49 children and leaders.
09:08:51 We ask that you continue to guide us.
09:08:54 Thank you for your blessing, with strength and
09:08:57 prosperity and for showing us favor, allowing us to
09:08:59 live in such a great country, state and city.
09:09:02 We all thank you for our political leaders.
09:09:06 Our City of Tampa, the mayor and each council member
09:09:08 that is being used to serve the great City of Tampa.
09:09:12 Please give them the wisdom and strength that will
09:09:14 affect our daily lives in the present and future.
09:09:17 I also would like for you to bless and protect the
09:09:19 leaders of our nation, President Bush, Vice President
09:09:21 Cheney, the governor of our state Charlie Crist and
09:09:25 all of our other national leaders.
09:09:26 We ask a special prayer for the citizens that are in
09:09:29 despair and the less fortunate science citizens of our
09:09:32 country.
09:09:32 Please grant them with the strength to press on.
09:09:35 Please keep safe the men and women in our armed
09:09:40 services especially those in Iraq and Afghanistan.
09:09:43 Protect them from hurt, harm and danger and be with
09:09:46 their family.
09:09:47 In the name of almighty God we pray.
09:09:49 Amen.
09:09:52 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:10:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Ariel is a member of our congregation,
09:10:12 34th street church.
09:10:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Great.
09:10:14 Roll call.
09:10:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:10:17 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:10:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:10:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
09:10:22 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:10:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:10:25 At this time we need to do approval of the agenda.
09:10:29 Any items we wish to pull?
09:10:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes, items 27 and 28.
09:11:00 Discussion.
09:11:08 >>CHAIRMAN: You want them to come over?
09:11:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Actually, I want to continue those
09:11:13 for a week.
09:11:14 There are some questions I wanted answered in a short
09:11:17 period of time.
09:11:18 But I didn't want to take council's time on it.
09:11:20 I'm sure it can wait an extra week.
09:11:22 So I would just like to defer those one week.
09:11:25 Items 27, 28.
09:11:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Is that a motion?
09:11:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes.
09:11:30 >> Second.
09:11:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to continue item 27
09:11:33 and 28 for one week.
09:11:34 (Motion carried).

09:11:35 Other items?
09:11:37 >>MARY MULHERN: I would just like to pull items 41
09:11:42 through 45 just for an explanation of what this
09:11:45 program is and why the -- what the city's involvement
09:11:51 in it is.
09:11:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you want them to come over?
09:11:55 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
09:11:56 I'm not sure who that would be.
09:12:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other items?
09:12:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:12:02 Item 26.
09:12:04 Have a staff person come over for an item on the
09:12:07 agenda, Department of Community Affairs, pretty much
09:12:09 so that the public can be aware that it's not
09:12:13 abolishing, it's just changing to a division, so that
09:12:16 can be explained by staff.
09:12:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
09:12:26 Ms. Miller can answer that?
09:12:27 No?
09:12:29 >>MARTIN SHELBY: 26?
09:12:30 >>GWEN MILLER: 26.
09:12:31 Need to approve the agenda.

09:12:33 >> Move approval.
09:12:34 >> Second.
09:12:34 (Motion carried).
09:12:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Staff reports.
09:12:37 Rebecca Kert.
09:12:39 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
09:12:41 We would like to present an ordinance to you
09:12:43 clarifying your refuse ovation -- revocation process
09:12:46 for chapter 3 and I would request a date for first
09:12:48 reading for that to bring it back to you.
09:12:52 At the present time there's two different processes
09:12:56 and we would like to clarify that.
09:12:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
09:13:03 >> So moved to bring it back in two weeks.
09:13:06 >> Second.
09:13:06 (Motion carried).
09:13:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Julie Cole.
09:13:13 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:13:14 I'm here on item number 64 on your agenda.
09:13:17 It's actually an 11:00 time.
09:13:22 As they relate to the Channel District.
09:13:23 I just wanted to say at this point that at 11:00

09:13:28 staff -- you can take the action at 11:00, this to be
09:13:32 actually continued into your July chapter 27 cycle.
09:13:37 This is a very significant issue.
09:13:39 And we haven't really had a good opportunity to meet
09:13:41 with you all individually and to have further
09:13:43 discussions on what this all means.
09:13:45 So we believe at this time it's appropriate to go
09:13:46 ahead and move it into the July cycle so that we have
09:13:50 more time to discuss it.
09:13:53 But we can't take the action until 11:00.
09:13:56 Item 64.
09:13:57 >>MARY MULHERN: I was wondering about item 63 which is
09:14:02 also fairly significant, and --
09:14:08 >>> That is both item 63 and 64.
09:14:13 >>CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
09:14:14 Now we go to unfinished agenda item.
09:14:21 >> Cindy Miller, director of growth management
09:14:24 development services here on number 1 to discuss the
09:14:26 Guida house.
09:14:30 We have had over the last couple of years discussion
09:14:35 with a group to be able to lease be the Guida house.
09:14:42 We have taken some time because they had also

09:14:45 requested that they look at developing the adjacent
09:14:47 area next to the Guida house; to the extent that the
09:14:55 group would like to do it.
09:14:57 However, we are keeping discussions open with them and
09:15:00 looking at alternatives locations for them.
09:15:05 They still are very interested in the Guida house and
09:15:07 going forwards with the rehabilitation but they need
09:15:09 additional space because the Guida house does not
09:15:11 provide sufficient square footage.
09:15:13 I prefer to really not go into who the group is
09:15:15 because it's a matter that will come before you at a
09:15:17 later date so we are having very good open discussions
09:15:20 in looking at other alternatives for West Tampa.
09:15:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you for the report.
09:15:26 I'm glad that you're having productive conversations.
09:15:29 I'm very concerned because the house has been moth
09:15:33 bald for a couple of years, that it not just continue
09:15:35 in the mothball state, that things move forward.
09:15:38 So if you could report back to us as soon as there's
09:15:44 something to bring back to us.
09:15:46 But I would think -- have you went through the time
09:15:52 frame you expect to us move ahead with this, like two

09:15:55 months, three months?
09:15:57 >>> As a matter of fact, we will be back on
09:15:59 conversations as soon as tomorrow with one of the
09:16:01 representatives so hopefully -- so whether we'll have
09:16:04 something finalized in two months, we will continue
09:16:06 discussions certainly during that time frame.
09:16:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm just saying to keep council in
09:16:10 the loop since we are not supposed to attend the
09:16:12 meetings that you can let us know what's going on.
09:16:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Miller, you can do 41 through 45.
09:16:23 >>> I will inform the person to be here for item 41
09:16:26 through 45.
09:16:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Number 2.
09:16:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: City Council attorney.
09:16:32 I have provided to you previously the background
09:16:36 material a memo requesting direction to draft a
09:16:38 resolution amending the City Council's rules of
09:16:41 procedure.
09:16:43 In order to accomplish that, which was reached on
09:16:45 consensus, at the strategic planning session that took
09:16:49 place on June 18th.
09:16:51 Council, you have previously received a copy of the

09:16:55 minutes, and the materials that have been reduced to
09:16:59 writing.
09:16:59 And I would acknowledge the city clerk's office, she
09:17:05 has done an out standing job drafting those minutes,
09:17:09 taking that material and putting it on 8 and a half by
09:17:13 11 that you can easily reference.
09:17:16 This is the first step of implementation.
09:17:18 I prepared 14 proposals.
09:17:21 And if council wishes to give me that direction, I
09:17:23 would ask that you do so.
09:17:24 It would take me approximately a week or so to get
09:17:29 these changes out.
09:17:30 I'd like to share them with the clerk and her staff.
09:17:34 I'd like to share them with the city attorney staff.
09:17:37 I'd like to share them with council, get feedback,
09:17:40 bring you back a draft and procedure for changing
09:17:42 rules of procedure per council's rules, requiring two
09:17:46 separate readings two weeks apart.
09:17:51 I would ask council to consider making these effective
09:17:53 October 1st.
09:17:54 If you wish to do things incrementally, it may make
09:17:58 things a little more complicated but clearly with

09:17:59 regard to the significant item of changing the number
09:18:03 of regular meetings per month, I would ask you, in
09:18:10 addition to giving me direction, you also provide
09:18:12 direction to the clerk to notify the department and
09:18:16 the administration so those items coming to be set for
09:18:20 a particular hearing or particular subject matters
09:18:23 comply with what your pending changes are going to be
09:18:27 and what your intention is.
09:18:28 That being said, I ask council for direction in the
09:18:30 form of a motion to prepare a resolution that begins
09:18:34 implementing these changes to the rules.
09:18:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chair, members of council, I
09:18:41 think we had an excellent strategic planning session
09:18:43 where everything was outlined and discussed at length,
09:18:46 and the documentation reflects that.
09:18:52 And I am going to move that we ask Mr. Shelby to go
09:18:56 ahead and implement those effective date October
09:18:59 1st.
09:18:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
09:19:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Also, all parties including
09:19:04 administration, clerk, be notified of all the changes
09:19:09 that provided documentation about changes we are

09:19:12 making.
09:19:13 Also, council Linda Saul-Sena submitted a memorandum
09:19:18 on the agenda.
09:19:20 Now, I know we talked about in the strategic meeting
09:19:25 in public comments after the invocation, prayer,
09:19:28 approval of the agenda, then we do the accommodations,
09:19:31 staff report, commendations then public comments.
09:19:35 We did discuss that format, I think, in our strategic
09:19:38 planning.
09:19:39 However, I think councilwoman Saul-Sena has a
09:19:42 little -- went a little further in terms of changing
09:19:45 the entire agenda, and council may want to discuss
09:19:48 that.
09:19:48 But I'm very much supportive of the changing of the
09:19:51 agenda to move public comment after the commendation
09:19:56 so that we can get the public up early so they won't
09:20:00 have to wait all day.
09:20:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: what I would like to do, first on
09:20:05 the motion that Mr. Scott made and then discuss the
09:20:09 more minor change that I'm proposing.
09:20:11 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a question.
09:20:15 We discussed about having our night meeting -- how did

09:20:19 we say we are going to do the zoning?
09:20:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Same way.
09:20:33 >> (off microphone) ... may affect second reading of
09:20:36 the ordinance.
09:20:50 (off microphone)
09:20:57 >>GWEN MILLER: It will be three weeks.
09:20:59 It will be three weeks instead of two weeks time.
09:21:02 They have to wait three weeks until the second
09:21:04 reading.
09:21:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to compliment Mr. Shelby on
09:21:15 doing such an excellent job of taking a lot of
09:21:19 conversation and whittling it down to these points.
09:21:26 I think it's better for ourselves and the
09:21:28 administration because they only have two regular
09:21:30 meetings a month to attend.
09:21:31 I think we are going to look back and say, wow, why
09:21:34 didn't we do that years ago?
09:21:36 So I really encourage us to adopt this.
09:21:38 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions, Mr. Dingfelder?
09:21:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The laundry list here, items from
09:21:45 Mr. Shelby, and one of our members wasn't able to join
09:21:50 us that day, are we going to have any discussion on

09:21:55 this before you start the actual two adoption dates?
09:22:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It's council's choice.
09:22:07 If there are things in this list you wish to
09:22:08 address --
09:22:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess what I would like to
09:22:12 address is number 7 if you want to do it real quick.
09:22:15 Number 7 says require council members to refrain from
09:22:19 dialogue during agenda.
09:22:20 I understand the intent of that and I think the intent
09:22:22 is right, that we should just let the agenda cover
09:22:26 comment process go forward without much ado.
09:22:32 But, you know, what if there's a really hot issue, and
09:22:36 somebody brings it up and we have a question to that
09:22:38 person, just to try and clarify, you know, that issue
09:22:42 and what we need to do, and where we need to go, and
09:22:45 that sort of thing.
09:22:46 The rule says you will not speak during agendaed
09:22:49 public comment.
09:22:50 Then it's kind of black and white.
09:22:53 So I'm just wondering, you know, is there a way to
09:22:56 loosen that up?
09:22:57 Or is it just subject to, you know, the motion on the

09:23:00 rules or what have you?
09:23:04 Mr. Scott, I think it was your suggestion.
09:23:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, what the intent of that is, to
09:23:11 refrain from refrain from dialogue.
09:23:17 You want to hear from the public and then allow them
09:23:19 to finish.
09:23:21 Then refer it over the attorney.
09:23:28 But it's not to have council go back and forth, back
09:23:32 and forth, which becomes problematic, because you
09:23:35 don't have opportunity to get all your public comment
09:23:37 in.
09:23:38 And that's the whole intent.
09:23:39 I don't think it's intended not to have any dialogue
09:23:42 but to refrain from a long, lengthy discussion, allow
09:23:46 them to complete what they are saying.
09:23:48 Then if you have a question all we do is refer to the
09:23:50 staff.
09:23:51 That's the intent.
09:23:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: A reminder, council, these are items
09:23:56 during agendaed public comments, are items that are
09:23:59 going to be referenced later on in the agenda when
09:24:03 they are discussed by staff, or if it's a consent item

09:24:09 then perhaps not.
09:24:10 But the other thing is that council does have the
09:24:13 ability to make inquiry if it wishes, and what I can
09:24:23 do is I can take council's direction and cross the
09:24:26 language and if it's acceptable to council in a draft
09:24:28 form and move forward with changes, to have that
09:24:37 opportunity.
09:24:38 >>MARY MULHERN: I might be a little confused here.
09:24:48 The agendaed public comment proposed would be before
09:24:52 we open the public hearing?
09:24:54 How does that work?
09:24:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Presently now, you have agendaed
09:24:59 public comment following the staff reports.
09:25:02 And a lot of times there are people in the audience
09:25:05 who are here to hear what the staff has to say.
09:25:11 But the way it's presently structured, because the
09:25:14 length of each individual staff report varies and the
09:25:17 number of staff reports vary, there is no set time or
09:25:21 any way of predicting when the public will have the
09:25:23 opportunity to speak.
09:25:25 If the purpose of agendaed public comment was to give
09:25:28 people the opportunity to appear before their elected

09:25:30 officials, express their point of view, express their
09:25:33 concerns, prior to the item coming up, council will
09:25:36 then be on notice to be able to address those items at
09:25:38 the time those items do come up.
09:25:42 The purpose would then be to not necessarily have to
09:25:45 open each individual item on the staff report, as
09:25:49 sometimes council is WONT to do to speak to individual
09:25:53 items.
09:25:56 >>MARY MULHERN: I think I tend to agree with John
09:25:58 because if we are not going to be able to ask
09:26:00 questions at that point, what's been happening is we
09:26:02 have to vote to reopen the public hearing when we have
09:26:05 the question for someone who spoke earlier.
09:26:08 So I think we want to be cautious about that, because
09:26:11 I think that's something we want to cut down on.
09:26:15 Cutting down on the time it takes us to do that.
09:26:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, this is not the time for the
09:26:24 public hearing.
09:26:24 This is strictly for public comment, which is
09:26:27 different.
09:26:29 And so that's what -- it's only strictly to public
09:26:36 comment.

09:26:36 >>MARY MULHERN: This is not on the agenda then, the
09:26:39 regular public -- usually it's at the end?
09:26:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: No.
09:26:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Look at your agenda.
09:26:47 It's the third thing down.
09:26:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe it is for items that are on
09:26:51 the agenda that appears early in the agenda that is
09:26:54 limited to items that are on the agenda but are not
09:26:57 set for public hearing.
09:26:59 Those which are set for public hearing, people will
09:27:01 have the opportunity to speak when those come up.
09:27:04 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
09:27:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Also, you may want, instead moving
09:27:09 public comment up, you may want to set a certain time
09:27:12 for that to allow so many minutes in terms of public
09:27:16 testimony, public comment, such as 30, 40 minutes.
09:27:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Could we maybe discuss that as part
09:27:25 of the -- not the 14-point discussion but the agenda
09:27:29 portion?
09:27:32 >> That's fine.
09:27:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions on the 14 points?
09:27:35 Now we have a motion and second.

09:27:36 (Motion carried)
09:27:39 Now we go to --
09:27:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Pass out more copies.
09:27:46 Madam Chairman, the reason I wrote this down very
09:27:49 specifically is because I thought in our desire to
09:27:52 make our agenda more timely and efficient that perhaps
09:27:56 we could be more specific about moving some things
09:27:58 around, and that would allow the public to have a
09:28:02 clearer sense of what's going on.
09:28:04 I think, Mr. Scott, that's a great idea to limit the
09:28:06 amount of time for public comment.
09:28:10 It's usually not been so much of a problem.
09:28:15 I mean, we can certainly do that because it's easy to
09:28:17 amend our own rules.
09:28:19 We can change it if it's a problem.
09:28:23 Begin with the invocation, then limit our
09:28:25 conversations, that usually isn't a problem, approve
09:28:28 the agenda, then have public comment, then have the
09:28:31 consent agenda, which is usually pretty fast, then
09:28:34 have our public hearings, and then after all that go
09:28:38 to our staff report.
09:28:40 Staff reports, as we all know, sometimes take as much

09:28:44 as two hours.
09:28:45 And it throws everything else off.
09:28:48 I think by putting that at the end, it would really
09:28:50 make the public's life easier, it would make the
09:28:53 staff's life easier because they know the public
09:28:55 hearings would be taking place first.
09:28:57 And it would just allow this whole process to flow
09:29:01 more quickly.
09:29:02 Because changing our agenda is not a complicated deal,
09:29:05 I would suggest that we try this let's say October
09:29:09 through December and see how it goes, with the idea of
09:29:11 revisiting it in January.
09:29:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Saul-Sena, you say changing the
09:29:14 staff reports after -- we had talked about public
09:29:19 comments.
09:29:20 You want to keep the public hearing at the end of the
09:29:22 meeting.
09:29:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No, no, Madam Chairman, if you will
09:29:26 look at the agenda, I have public comments, then
09:29:29 public hearings, then staff reports.
09:29:34 >>GWEN MILLER: If they want to talk about something
09:29:36 the staff is going to talk about, the public will have

09:29:38 to sit here all morning till the staff come up.
09:29:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Uh-huh.
09:29:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, that's a really good point.
09:29:45 In that case, do you think in order to have the
09:29:47 public -- my biggest initiative in this is to try to
09:29:51 have the public hearings appear at a time when the
09:29:53 public is coming down specifically for a public
09:29:56 hearing doesn't have to wait all day.
09:29:57 So perhaps, Madam Chairman, based on what you said,
09:30:00 the public comments, maybe public comments should be
09:30:04 two fold.
09:30:04 There should be public comments about things on the
09:30:06 consent agenda, and then there should be another
09:30:08 public comment section before staff reports.
09:30:11 Or maybe we -- I don't know.
09:30:13 I'm open to suggestions.
09:30:14 I just want to make sure that when people get a notice
09:30:17 that says come down to a 9:30 public hearing that they
09:30:20 are not waiting till 11:45.
09:30:22 It just doesn't seem fair.
09:30:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
09:30:30 Mr. Miranda.

09:30:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I know haven't spoken much.
09:30:33 I have been in a coma listening to you all.
09:30:35 And I think in this way, a couple of great Americans
09:30:38 said a lot of things.
09:30:39 This is a day of infamy.
09:30:41 Remember that?
09:30:42 Another great baseball mind by the name of branch
09:30:45 Rigney says don't look at the hole in the donut, look
09:30:51 at the donut in the hole.
09:30:52 What does it have to do with this?
09:30:54 No matter how you change the agenda you can fire the
09:30:56 manager but you still got the same players.
09:30:58 You can blame the chairman but it's us, not the
09:31:01 chairman.
09:31:02 The agenda stays the same.
09:31:05 It changes by stack ago round.
09:31:08 At 12:00 we go to break and go to lunch, people here
09:31:11 paying hundreds of thousands of dollars as a whole,
09:31:15 not individually, for people to represent them, and we
09:31:17 are having lunch.
09:31:19 Those are the things that are still burning.
09:31:29 Those citizens come here.

09:31:30 It's us, not them.
09:31:32 So you can change the agenda all you want but it's
09:31:35 still the same seven players that are great
09:31:37 individuals but can't play as a team.
09:31:40 And I'm sorry to say that.
09:31:41 I apologize for hurting council members' feelings but
09:31:44 that's a fact.
09:31:46 It's not going to get any better because you put one
09:31:49 item here and another item there and change at round,
09:31:51 because at noon, we are going to leave.
09:31:55 And that's wrong.
09:32:01 And I'm not speaking to any council member.
09:32:03 But you can see we have been debating this for five
09:32:06 minutes already.
09:32:07 We haven't got anything done.
09:32:08 So these are the things that you have to digest and
09:32:11 look at and understand, and what the ramifications
09:32:15 are.
09:32:15 If you move something up, and that's a noble cause
09:32:20 what Mrs. Saul-Sena said, let the public speak.
09:32:23 If you speak earlier you have to stay to the end
09:32:25 because that item is not up yet and you don't know

09:32:27 what's going to happen so you leave happy because you
09:32:29 spoke but at the end you don't know what happened
09:32:32 until you read it in the paper the next day.
09:32:34 Those are the things that frustrates the public.
09:32:36 And these are the things that you just have to go out
09:32:39 and get with it, get your agenda.
09:32:43 You don't know what's on the agenda.
09:32:50 My aide calls council A or department head, finds out
09:32:54 what it is, pull it is items I have to look at.
09:32:57 If I'm satisfied with them, I'm happy.
09:32:58 So those things are -- you cut the time down to almost
09:33:03 nothing.
09:33:04 And that's what you have to do to move this agenda
09:33:06 along.
09:33:06 It's not us.
09:33:07 It's the way we think on the system that we have
09:33:10 created that doesn't work, and it doesn't work because
09:33:13 of the agenda.
09:33:14 It doesn't work because of us.
09:33:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
09:33:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have met the enemy and it is us,
09:33:26 right?

09:33:27 I think Charlie made one or two good points.
09:33:30 Actually, I think we have made big progress since last
09:33:34 year.
09:33:34 The meetings are moving a lot faster.
09:33:37 We are getting out a lot better.
09:33:40 There was one I shall but lunch that we adopted a
09:33:43 rule, one of our council members pushed real hard and
09:33:46 adopted a rule about lunch, that I don't think it's a
09:33:49 good rule, and basically what it says is unless it's a
09:33:52 unanimous vote, then we will go to lunch at noon.
09:33:57 And I don't think that's a good rule.
09:33:59 That means one person alone can just say, you know, I
09:34:01 got to go to lunch, and then the whole shebang stops.
09:34:06 And I think that's a rule, I am going to make a motion
09:34:10 that we direct Mr. Shelby to change.
09:34:12 I think it should be just a regular majority vote,
09:34:15 period, and not a super-super majority vote on that
09:34:19 issue.
09:34:21 The other thing I wanted to point out, I think we can
09:34:24 fix in response to some of the comments.
09:34:26 If we look at Ms. Saul-Sena's list, if we bump staff
09:34:32 reports ahead of public hearings so it would go

09:34:34 invocation, commendations, approve agenda, public
09:34:36 comments, consent, then staff reports, and then public
09:34:40 hearings, that I think would you combine public
09:34:44 comments, consent and staff reports, boom, boom, boom,
09:34:47 and at least that way you don't have the issue that
09:34:50 Mary was talking about, the public having to hang
09:34:52 around, or somebody was mentioning that, the public
09:34:56 having to hang around for the staff reports and for
09:34:58 the consent agenda.
09:35:02 At least it would be boom, boom, boom.
09:35:04 And then we go into public hearings.
09:35:06 And sometimes public hearings do take longer, if you
09:35:08 have the wet zonings, wet zonings are a carry-over of
09:35:11 the normal zoning it might take awhile.
09:35:13 But you know what?
09:35:14 So be it.
09:35:17 So I will just go ahead and throw that out as a
09:35:20 motion, two different motions real quick for the sake
09:35:22 of clarity.
09:35:23 I do have Mr. Shelby to do whatever is necessary on
09:35:28 the lunch vote to be a simple majority instead of a
09:35:31 super-super majority.

09:35:33 >> Second.
09:35:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to speak to it.
09:35:37 You didn't give us a moment.
09:35:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
09:35:45 >>GWEN MILLER: See if you can convince people to
09:35:47 change.
09:35:50 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Saul-Sena and Caetano
09:35:52 voting no.
09:35:54 And Scott.
09:35:55 >> I voted yes.
09:35:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This will be come back to us.
09:35:58 You just asked Mr. Shelby to draft it.
09:36:01 Let me explain to why I think that's not a good idea.
09:36:03 We all have busy schedules.
09:36:05 We all serve on different boards.
09:36:06 I have two separate boards that I'm appointed to by
09:36:09 council that meet on Thursdays at noon.
09:36:11 I'm late but I get there.
09:36:13 And I think it's important as a council participant to
09:36:15 show up.
09:36:16 I also have other professional appointments that
09:36:18 require me -- the person with whom I am making the

09:36:22 appointments to know that, yes, I am reliably going to
09:36:25 be there.
09:36:26 We have a lot more business than we used to.
09:36:28 We often work into the afternoon.
09:36:30 And I think that the quality of our demeanor improves
09:36:34 with taking a lunch break.
09:36:35 I think three solid hours of working is enough.
09:36:38 And I think that knowing you are going to stop between
09:36:40 12:00 and 1:30 is professional.
09:36:42 I don't think it's a discurtsy to the public.
09:36:45 I think by 12:00 they are ready to take a break, too.
09:36:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Scott?
09:36:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, I think it's very important, and
09:36:55 council Miranda said this morning, a lot of it has to
09:36:58 do with us, absolutely right.
09:37:00 But also understand the process we have and not trying
09:37:02 to change our process once you have established a
09:37:05 process.
09:37:05 What I found since I have been with council is that
09:37:08 you try to accommodate everybody and everything,
09:37:12 that's impossible.
09:37:12 You just can't do it.

09:37:14 You need to set a process, a schedule, and stay within
09:37:17 that process and that schedule as much as possible.
09:37:19 I understand.
09:37:24 Meantime our constituents want to meet with us during
09:37:27 lunch hour, okay?
09:37:29 If I have a scheduled lunch hour and you say we are
09:37:31 going to continue on and you continue with the
09:37:33 business here, and I need to go keep my appointment,
09:37:36 then you have not afforded me the opportunity to
09:37:38 discuss the issues that are here.
09:37:41 That is unfair for me as an elected officials who has
09:37:44 another obligation to meet with our constituents as
09:37:46 well during the lunch hour, that should be routine and
09:37:50 scheduled as councilwoman said, it's just professional
09:37:53 to do that.
09:37:54 And it's respectful.
09:37:55 And I think the public understands that.
09:37:58 You see, one thing that I am objecting to is how we
09:38:06 vote to change the rule on everything public comment.
09:38:11 That's number one.
09:38:12 Number two, these meetings go from 9:00 in the morning
09:38:15 till 1:00 in the morning.

09:38:16 I don't know, I mean, you have to come back and change
09:38:21 your vote because the meeting went so long, you know,
09:38:23 and that's the thing I been trying to point out to us,
09:38:25 that at some point it's just so lengthy that your
09:38:28 brain, we are tired anyway.
09:38:32 I think it's fair for council to take a lunch break.
09:38:36 And be able to meet with a constituent, any point they
09:38:39 have, and I think you will feel a lot better instead
09:38:41 of being hungry and tired.
09:38:48 >>GWEN MILLER: I think we need to have a special
09:38:50 discussion, council pick a date and let go through the
09:38:54 agenda items and see how we want to change the agenda.
09:38:57 Because we have got constituents out there waiting for
09:39:00 them to get to them, the seven of us are talking among
09:39:04 ourselves, and we need to set aside a special
09:39:08 discussion date.
09:39:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: How about on the second item?
09:39:14 John made it.
09:39:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I was going to make a motion to put
09:39:21 it to bed.
09:39:21 >>GWEN MILLER: That's why we need to have a special
09:39:25 discussion.

09:39:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let's see where the vote goes.
09:39:29 If you are not happen we can continue on.
09:39:31 So I would take Ms. Saul-Sena's suggestion with one
09:39:35 change, which would be move staff report to sit
09:39:38 between consent doc agenda and public hearings.
09:39:43 >>> Second.
09:39:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm not sure about those times that
09:39:46 you have.
09:39:47 >>> And this perhaps make public hearings begin at
09:39:50 10:00.
09:39:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That would be my motion.
09:39:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion.
09:39:55 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: The first motion was to switch
09:40:00 public comments and staff reports, is that correct?
09:40:01 That got a second?
09:40:02 We didn't vote on that.
09:40:03 >>GWEN MILLER: We didn't vote on it yet.
09:40:05 >> No.
09:40:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Move staff reports after --
09:40:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let me clarify my motion before we
09:40:14 discuss it, if I could, Madam Chair.
09:40:16 I think the motion on the floor made is very simple,

09:40:19 to take Ms. Saul-Sena's list and make one adjustment,
09:40:23 and that is to move staff report to sit between
09:40:26 consent and public hearing.
09:40:35 And then to refine the times on public hearings to be
09:40:38 10 a.m.
09:40:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Other questions?
09:40:45 All in favor of that motion say Aye.
09:40:46 Opposed, Nay.
09:40:48 Nay.
09:40:50 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Miller voting no.
09:40:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The rules.
09:41:02 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The question is maybe this come back
09:41:05 to a special discussion meeting.
09:41:06 Or I could just bring back the draft based on
09:41:10 council's direction.
09:41:15 Council, if you want the time for me to review it in
09:41:21 advance before it comes back individually, I believe
09:41:24 the best date would be when it comes back from Florida
09:41:29 League of Cities break.
09:41:30 That would be August 23rd.
09:41:32 >>CHAIRMAN: And let's put it at the end of the agenda
09:41:34 that we discuss with the constituents that are

09:41:38 waiting.
09:41:38 We have a motion and second.
09:41:40 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
09:41:41 Opposed, Nay.
09:41:44 (Motion carried)
09:41:44 Now we go to item number 3.
09:41:50 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:41:52 You should have the resolution requesting lease of the
09:41:58 city seal.
09:42:01 It was submitted yesterday but if not I have copies.
09:42:03 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
09:42:05 (Motion carried).
09:42:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 4.
09:42:14 >> I met with Mr. Snelling, John Barrios and Ms.
09:42:20 Miller with reference to the green, and I have some
09:42:21 notes by Mr. Snelling that I'll pass out.
09:42:24 And there's hopes of perhaps moving the workdays for
09:42:28 plan review from 3 to 5 days, and of course the whole
09:42:32 green concept is new, and we are trying to put
09:42:36 something together because it's a new project.
09:42:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Any questions?
09:42:48 Mrs. Saul-Sena?

09:42:52 Is Mr. Snelling here?
09:42:53 One of the stumbling blocks has been that our staff
09:42:55 who had to review the green plans is -- they have not
09:43:00 previously been trained.
09:43:01 And I wonder if you can give us an update on their
09:43:04 training.
09:43:10 >>> I'm the chairman of a task force looking into
09:43:12 this.
09:43:12 One of the recommendations we are bringing back is to
09:43:14 provide additional training.
09:43:16 There is some training available at no cost through
09:43:18 Hillsborough County, some other local programs, that
09:43:20 we are going to try to take advantage of.
09:43:22 So we are looking at the training issues.
09:43:25 And Mr. Barrios, and I will be working with him
09:43:28 closely, because primarily it's going to be his staff
09:43:30 that has to have the abilities to recognize that
09:43:32 somebody is doing something green so they don't
09:43:34 immediately fail it.
09:43:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What I would like is a report back
09:43:39 in 30 days on what the timetable for training our
09:43:42 staff is.

09:43:42 >>THOM SNELLING: Okay.
09:43:46 >> Second.
09:43:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
09:43:47 (Motion carried).
09:43:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 5.
09:43:55 >>THOM SNELLING: Growth management.
09:43:57 >>CHAIRMAN: Item number 5.
09:44:00 East Tampa and West Tampa CDC.
09:44:08 Wants to give a report.
09:44:09 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:44:11 As you may recall, this is continued from prior to
09:44:14 your break.
09:44:17 So I can refresh everybody's recollection this is
09:44:20 brought forward to City Council after direction to the
09:44:23 legal department to prepare an amendment to the West
09:44:25 Tampa and East Tampa overlay district, requiring the
09:44:32 citizen organizations and the timing of when they
09:44:34 receive site plans.
09:44:36 And we brought that back to you.
09:44:38 It does need to go within the chapter 27 July cycle so
09:44:41 it's not something that you can vote on today.
09:44:43 But it was brought back to you to determine whether or

09:44:45 not you wanted to utilize your pending ordinance.
09:44:48 And if I could just take a moment.
09:44:50 I know there's been a lot of concerns over these
09:44:51 issues and I have provided a memo that I have
09:44:54 submitted to Mr. Smith regarding some of the legal
09:44:58 concerns we have in the legal department related to
09:45:00 the requirements in the ordinance.
09:45:02 And I have also given those to Mr. Robinson, and pass
09:45:07 out to some other folks.
09:45:09 I want to make this clear, this was not intended to
09:45:11 diminish the role of these neighborhood associations
09:45:14 in the development review process.
09:45:17 Only within the East Tampa and West Tampa overlay
09:45:20 districts are those neighborhood associations
09:45:22 receiving the applications at the outset of the
09:45:25 process.
09:45:26 And it really is something that is very unique and
09:45:30 very different than any other organization within the
09:45:32 City of Tampa.
09:45:33 And I have great concerns and I will continue to raise
09:45:36 concerns about having that information given to the
09:45:39 neighborhood associations.

09:45:41 And while it doesn't say you receive a recommendation,
09:45:45 you will be receiving a recommendation.
09:45:46 I do have some concerns to create these committees as
09:45:53 sunshine law bodies, if council feels they want to
09:45:55 leave in place these provisions.
09:45:56 But again I just want to make it clear this is not
09:45:59 intended to remove or diminish the role of
09:46:02 neighborhood associations.
09:46:03 They will still receive notification.
09:46:04 They will still be involved in the process.
09:46:07 It's just really a timing question.
09:46:08 And receiving this information, not at the outset but
09:46:12 receiving this information at the end of the process,
09:46:14 after staff has had an opportunity to ensure that the
09:46:17 technical requirements have been met, and have the
09:46:20 opportunity to review the plan.
09:46:21 And you actually have a final plan in place at that
09:46:24 point in time, if we go ahead and remove this
09:46:26 provision, and it's done as part of the notification
09:46:28 requirement.
09:46:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Approximately, or if you know
09:46:39 exactly, how many plans does a typical applicant have

09:46:41 to submit when they do a PD, which is basically,
09:46:47 generally what we are talking about here?
09:46:48 How many plans do they have to submit to the city?
09:46:52 It's like seven or eight or something like that?
09:46:55 >> I'm not really sure exactly how many plans are
09:46:57 submitted to the city as part of the application.
09:47:03 It may be 12 but I may be incorrect about that.
09:47:06 >> Okay.
09:47:11 >> Sound like it's maybe 7 or 8?
09:47:16 >>> 17 actually.
09:47:17 >> 17 copies and 17 PD drawings and 17 sets of
09:47:21 everything.
09:47:21 And I made a motion a year or two ago to suggest that
09:47:28 neighborhoods, all neighborhoods across the city --
09:47:32 right now, the neighborhoods get a notice.
09:47:35 It's a courtesy notice just like if you're a next door
09:47:39 neighbor to the project, you get a courtesy notice.
09:47:41 There's a PD coming to your neighborhood.
09:47:44 Well, now, four or five years ago, the neighborhoods
09:47:49 get notice but they just get a notice and it says PD.
09:47:52 And then they have to take the affirmative step and
09:47:54 looking it up, coming down here, pulling the drawings,

09:47:57 requesting the copies, paying for copies, et cetera,
09:48:03 and trust me, as somebody who used to be president and
09:48:07 vice-president of two neighborhood associations it's
09:48:09 sort of a hassle for Joe citizen who doesn't have a
09:48:11 lot of time to get into this but they are very curious
09:48:15 about what the PD is coming to their neighborhood.
09:48:18 So there's 17 notices already added to the applicant.
09:48:23 Why not add one more copy and say the 18th copy
09:48:26 will go to that applicable neighborhood association,
09:48:29 or in this case the West Tampa CDC or whatever the
09:48:33 appropriate group is?
09:48:38 She says we have to treat all neighborhoods the same,
09:48:41 and I agree with that.
09:48:42 Equal protection is an important thing.
09:48:44 This is a way we can get around equal protection, by
09:48:46 just requiring that any PD site plan get one copy get
09:48:53 mailed to that appropriate neighborhood organization.
09:48:57 And then they can review it.
09:48:59 They cannot review it.
09:49:00 They can throw it in the trash.
09:49:02 They can give us their comments.
09:49:03 They can come down here, whatever.

09:49:04 But we eliminate this provision in the code that says
09:49:07 that they have super authority to, you know, on every
09:49:12 single one of them to be a review committee and give
09:49:14 us their opinion.
09:49:15 We will take that off for these two overlay committees
09:49:18 because I think that's inappropriate but we would make
09:49:23 sure they continue to get a copy of the PD site plan
09:49:25 so they know what is coming.
09:49:32 >>> If I can make a comment about that. The only
09:49:33 thing I would suggest if that is something council
09:49:35 does wants to do, to do it for all neighborhood
09:49:37 associations and make it part of the notification
09:49:39 requirement, that an applicant actually be responsible
09:49:41 for sending that directly to the neighborhood
09:49:44 association.
09:49:45 We all have budget constraints.
09:49:47 And having that as an extra step I think wouldn't be
09:49:51 appropriate.
09:49:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's exactly my point.
09:49:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think we discussed this last time.
09:49:56 That was that notifying still proceed but the problem
09:50:02 we have, at least myself and I think Mr. Miranda, was

09:50:04 based on what we were told, that I guess East Tampa
09:50:08 and West Tampa overlay review the project and give
09:50:12 their consent before it move forward.
09:50:15 You may correct me on that.
09:50:17 But that was my understanding.
09:50:19 I remember when West Tampa came, did you give your
09:50:23 approval?
09:50:24 If not go back.
09:50:25 They need to give their approval.
09:50:28 And I'm saying, wait a minute.
09:50:30 I think council Miranda said wait a minute, that
09:50:32 should not be the process.
09:50:33 That should not be.
09:50:34 Because what you are saying is they have the authority
09:50:36 and this board does not.
09:50:38 And it shouldn't be that way.
09:50:39 This board should have final authority on any zoning
09:50:42 issues.
09:50:43 So I don't have a problem, anybody want to have
09:50:47 recommendations or input.
09:50:48 But I think we should not -- we should not make it
09:50:53 mandatory that any neighborhood association or any

09:50:55 CDC, where we have to have their approval before we
09:51:00 can act upon a zoning issue.
09:51:03 >>JULIA COLE: If I can clarify that issue.
09:51:05 While the code does not use the term consent or
09:51:08 recommendation, it has been the practice, and the way
09:51:12 this has been handled, these neighborhood associations
09:51:16 have actually been considered and treated as part of
09:51:18 our development review committee process.
09:51:21 They have received it as any on the member of the
09:51:23 development review committee.
09:51:24 And they have been giving recommendations through that
09:51:27 process.
09:51:29 And so I think that's part of the confusion with
09:51:31 having this language in the code in an up-front manner
09:51:36 and treating these two neighborhood associations in a
09:51:38 manner that we don't treat other neighborhood
09:51:40 associations.
09:51:40 Even though I think the intent was a fair intent at
09:51:42 the time that it's happened, it's really developed
09:51:45 into a practice that I don't think was our intent and
09:51:47 that is why the recommendation to remove this language
09:51:51 and certainly entertain additional language as it

09:51:53 relates to all neighborhood associations.
09:51:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We continue this so Dr. Fisher could
09:52:00 be here, could not be here last time so we said we
09:52:03 would continue so we could hear from Dr. Fisher.
09:52:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Honorable chair Scott, chairman
09:52:16 Scott, chair of the county commission, and honorable
09:52:23 member John Dingfelder, I agree with what you both
09:52:25 said.
09:52:25 I'm not opposed to any neighborhood receiving the same
09:52:28 set of plans to turn into the city, even though it be
09:52:31 some cost involved, but one of 18 cannot be much more
09:52:36 than one of 17 when you are doing mass production.
09:52:38 That's number one.
09:52:39 Number two, there's certainly no intent on myself or
09:52:43 any council member, I believe, in any noble causes
09:52:46 that are created to protect what you feel is right.
09:52:50 However, that being said, it is in this chamber, where
09:52:55 the individuals come and vet their frustration or
09:52:58 their approval of whatever subject matter is before
09:53:00 us.
09:53:00 And that's in essence, you're right, this is a
09:53:05 chamber.

09:53:06 These are the elected officials.
09:53:07 And none of us got elected Mrs. Saul-Sena other had no
09:53:14 opposition so I guess she is elected unanimously.
09:53:17 So these are the facts that when they come before us,
09:53:19 the one that is this board rightly or wrongly, because
09:53:22 the public is not going to always agree with us, we
09:53:24 know that, and these are the things we are here for
09:53:27 and that's what we are here and that's what this
09:53:29 dialogue is about and this discussion is about today.
09:53:30 So I yield, Mrs. Chairman.
09:53:36 >>> Good morning.
09:53:36 And thanks for the -- the invitation.
09:53:40 Can I have more than three minutes since I was invited
09:53:42 to come?
09:53:48 >>CHAIRMAN: You want to report on CDC and what you are
09:53:52 doing.
09:53:52 >>> And I am going to really kind of rush through
09:53:54 this.
09:53:55 Good morning, first of all.
09:53:57 I'm Margaret Fisher, 1744 west Beach Street.
09:54:03 I am very proud to say that I am a life-long resident
09:54:08 of Tampa, and, more importantly, I am a life-long

09:54:14 resident of West Tampa.
09:54:20 I would first of all like to thank the council for
09:54:24 delaying your decision.
09:54:25 Perhaps two or three weeks ago, due to the fact that I
09:54:30 was away dealing with attending to a relative with
09:54:38 dementia.
09:54:39 If you ever had a relative with dementia you know what
09:54:41 I am talking about.
09:54:47 I would like to address some issues related to the
09:54:50 West Tampa overlay committee and also give you a
09:54:52 little brief history.
09:54:55 In order to clarify the role and the history of the
09:54:59 West Tampa overlay committee in our community, it is
09:55:04 imperative to note that the overlay committee has been
09:55:09 given the task of only reviewing proposals or waivers
09:55:16 of projects in the West Tampa overlay district.
09:55:20 This does not supersede the role of the Tampa City
09:55:27 Council, which has the power to approve or reject
09:55:32 proposed projects.
09:55:35 The West Tampa overlay committee has no power to pass
09:55:41 or reject proposals brought before it.
09:55:52 We have the first article here, and I will give you a

09:55:54 brief history of our overlay committee.
09:56:01 >>GWEN MILLER: On the overhead?
09:56:03 It's on now.
09:56:06 >>> Okay.
09:56:06 This article outlines the early stages of the West
09:56:08 Tampa's attempt to address development of guidelines
09:56:13 as part of their community revitalization effort.
09:56:20 This was a meeting that was held, that was called by
09:56:22 Annie Hart of the historic preservation committee --
09:56:27 commission, the West Tampa Chamber of Commerce, and
09:56:30 the West Tampa CDC, at which time we discussed three
09:56:35 options which were available to West Tampa.
09:56:39 And those options were residential, overlay district,
09:56:43 a local historic district, and a conservation
09:56:46 district.
09:56:48 The city at that time recommended a local historic
09:56:53 district.
09:56:56 We were informed at that time that a community meeting
09:57:00 was going to be held.
09:57:03 A community meeting was held August 27th, 2001, at
09:57:11 the BEULAH church there on Willow street.
09:57:16 Again, the city recommended a local historic district.

09:57:23 The West Tampa resident -- because many of them who
09:57:27 were there were aware of the restrictions.
09:57:34 So they were vehemently opposed to a local historic
09:57:39 district.
09:57:41 And as was true of the West Tampa community prior to
09:57:45 the West Tampa CDC and the West Tampa overlay
09:57:49 committee, very little respect was shown to the
09:57:57 facilitators.
09:57:58 And if you have been around you know how we were and
09:58:00 how we behaved in West Tampa at that time.
09:58:06 I sat and I listened and I stood among all of the
09:58:12 confusion, and I volunteered to host the next meeting
09:58:18 at the CDC office.
09:58:23 Subsequent to Mr. Thom Snelling and two other folk who
09:58:26 were there as facilitators, sent out thank you letters
09:58:31 to those persons who have attended that meeting,
09:58:36 thanking them for coming, and in conjunction with
09:58:38 that, they also sent out two additional overlay
09:58:42 district proposals that had been accepted by the city.
09:58:49 The West Tampa community was still not satisfied with
09:58:56 those plans.
09:58:57 We continued to meet.

09:59:00 I called, I personally called the resident leaders.
09:59:03 Because if you have been around, and you know West
09:59:06 Tampa, we were not always on the same page.
09:59:11 So I personally called the neighborhood leaders,
09:59:15 because they were not present at that first meeting
09:59:19 that the city held.
09:59:22 So I personally called the neighborhood leaders and
09:59:25 asked them to come to the CDC's office for a special
09:59:29 meeting, and they did.
09:59:30 They all showed up.
09:59:33 And we talked about the importance of working together
09:59:40 as a community.
09:59:42 We talked about that.
09:59:44 Then at the next meeting that was held by the city,
09:59:53 all of the residents showed up, and we continued to
09:59:56 have meetings at the CDC's office, but it took us 18
10:00:02 months.
10:00:05 After 18 months at the CDC office, a consensus was
10:00:08 reached.
10:00:14 In 2003 a resolution setting a public hearing on an
10:00:16 ordinance, the City of Tampa, amending chapter 27, was
10:00:20 signed and filed to initiate dialogue in reference to

10:00:25 the creation of an overlay district for the West Tampa
10:00:29 community.
10:00:32 In January 2004, City Council created the West Tampa
10:00:38 overlay district and guidelines.
10:00:42 The Planning Commission found that the amendment to
10:00:44 chapter 27, and the development of outlines were
10:00:50 consistent with the Tampa comprehensive plan.
10:00:54 In order to understand the impact of the formation of
10:00:57 the overlay district in West Tampa, it is imperative
10:01:02 for the council to understand that not only did West
10:01:08 Tampa create an overlay committee, the overlay
10:01:14 committee created a real sense of community in West
10:01:22 Tampa.
10:01:25 The many groups, and many of now what I am talking
10:01:30 about, that had previously resisted any positive
10:01:33 change in their community, came together and are
10:01:39 continuing to function as a cohesive group to bring
10:01:43 positive change to West Tampa.
10:01:46 A community which long held the record as one of the
10:01:55 most impoverished drug ridden, crime ridden, you name
10:02:00 it.
10:02:01 And that includes every area, and comparing it with

10:02:07 every area in the City of Tampa.
10:02:09 If you go to the city archives, you will find that
10:02:14 prior to the overlay committee, prior to West Tampa
10:02:19 CDC, an incredible number of attempts at improving our
10:02:34 blightest community lie unfulfilled.
10:02:39 And I wish you would take the time or have someone
10:02:42 take the time to go there and take a look at the plan
10:02:45 for West Tampa.
10:02:49 They are there.
10:02:50 And I am not a betting person, but I want to say that
10:02:54 you will find that there are more unfulfilled plans
10:02:58 for West Tampa than any other area in the City of
10:03:01 Tampa.
10:03:03 Through the overlay committee, the people of West
10:03:05 Tampa have become empowered, experiencing for the
10:03:09 first time the ability to have a true voice in what
10:03:14 happens in their community.
10:03:17 This review process has enabled the community to
10:03:22 become aware of proposed construction projects before
10:03:26 its too late.
10:03:28 The review process maintains the traditional fabric of
10:03:33 old West Tampa while abolishing the teams.

10:03:38 Development for revitalization. This process
10:03:42 indicates our residents and increases awareness of
10:03:46 zoning issues and impact fee issues will have on their
10:03:49 community.
10:03:50 It draws the attention of developers and two
10:03:58 noncompliance elements in their proposed projects.
10:04:03 A mend notice, which is what we were alluding to but
10:04:07 you kind of answered that, unlike a site plan to West
10:04:13 Tampa residents is not sufficient.
10:04:15 And this is the site plan.
10:04:18 And does not work, as evidenced by noncompliance
10:04:28 structures that have been built and are being built in
10:04:30 our community.
10:04:32 Conclusion.
10:04:33 The West Tampa overlay district has created both a
10:04:40 sense of community, and a sense of civic pride.
10:04:47 West Tampa is becoming a community of pride and
10:04:54 progress, a major shareholder in the progress that is
10:04:58 happening in West Tampa is our City Council.
10:05:02 The overlay review process gives the community a very
10:05:08 small and much needed voice in its future.
10:05:15 It seems inconceivable to me that the council should

10:05:20 desire to take any action which might diminish the
10:05:25 sense of pride and power of its constituents.
10:05:30 Thank you very much, council, for listening.
10:05:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:05:47 >>> I have to go to a SWFWMD meeting so I would like
10:05:49 to get out of here so I apologize for getting up and
10:05:52 stopping the presentation but I have to go vote and
10:05:54 make sure that you all have water.
10:05:57 Charlie Miranda, and vote on millions of dollars for
10:05:59 water, that I might change my mind.
10:06:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, if you change your mind we
10:06:04 just don't have any water, that's all.
10:06:08 I don't use much anyway.
10:06:10 >>> Remember, I told you that.
10:06:13 Now, moving on, Joe Robinson, 2238 Belmont street,
10:06:19 Tampa, Florida.
10:06:19 I received an opinion from your city attorney, and I
10:06:22 wanted to say, number one, this is a racial issue.
10:06:25 This is an issue by black people finally getting
10:06:30 empowered, legally.
10:06:30 We went through a legal process.
10:06:32 Everybody checked to see if the West Tampa CDC could

10:06:35 legally be in it.
10:06:39 Since we are legally in it, before we GTE legally get
10:06:43 out an attorney general's opinion, we want an attorney
10:06:47 general's opinion because I believe the attorney is
10:06:49 right, we have all this power because we are in the
10:06:51 ordinance and we want an attorney general's opinion
10:06:54 whether or not the West Tampa CDC, by receiving a
10:06:58 zoning application for only review, and then
10:07:03 recommendation creates a sunshine law committee of the
10:07:05 West Tampa overlay committee.
10:07:07 We are asking, demanding, an attorney general's
10:07:09 opinion, and if the city attorney says we have the
10:07:12 power, I just made the request.
10:07:15 This information from the attorney is erroneous.
10:07:18 This is about equal protection.
10:07:20 Equal protection that has never been given to the
10:07:23 African-American neighborhood.
10:07:24 The overlay district is a small part of all of West
10:07:29 Tampa.
10:07:30 As a matter of fact it's represented by Reverend
10:07:31 Scott, not by Charlie Miranda.
10:07:34 Reverend Scott is my representative and Robert Scott

10:07:36 is a representative of this overlay district.
10:07:38 If you live in a single member district.
10:07:40 This statement in the document here that we have to
10:07:43 give the CDC and East Tampa have been designated
10:07:49 direct recommendations to City Council is an absolute
10:07:55 oh-we don't give recommendations. The reason because
10:07:59 we are slum and blighted, we are a poor neighborhood,
10:08:01 we have had problems.
10:08:02 And so you can ask Thom Snelling, you can ask Tony
10:08:06 Garcia.
10:08:08 That's the reason we got in there.
10:08:09 This is for the new City Council members.
10:08:12 That's why we have the backup.
10:08:14 The Planning Commission.
10:08:17 You know, gout to go to the Planning Commission.
10:08:20 It's a text amendment change.
10:08:21 Okay?
10:08:22 They voted it in there.
10:08:25 Why?
10:08:25 Because it's been discriminated against.
10:08:27 This is a racial issue.
10:08:29 And I'm here to say so.

10:08:31 Let's put it on the table.
10:08:32 Okay?
10:08:36 With that said, with that said, we are not a
10:08:40 neighborhood association.
10:08:40 We are a corporation.
10:08:43 CDC with special powers that we can bring money to the
10:08:46 City of Tampa.
10:08:50 We are not a neighborhood association.
10:08:52 We are a formal body.
10:08:57 We can enter into negotiations, not side deals.
10:09:00 We are doing work for the City of Tampa.
10:09:05 By having a public committee, with the budget cuts you
10:09:07 have now.
10:09:08 Who is going to be reviewing all this stuff?
10:09:10 Who is going to get eight neighborhoods and one group
10:09:13 to speak unanimously and to speak together?
10:09:16 Case in point.
10:09:18 Ed Turanchik came here to tell everybody that he
10:09:21 wanted his plan.
10:09:22 The overlay committee said it was a district.
10:09:25 City Council voted for Mr. Turanchik, for the CDC if
10:09:31 you want to call him an attorney, and City Council

10:09:36 does have the decision because they proved it already
10:09:38 with the Turanchik issue.
10:09:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:09:43 Okay, any questions?
10:09:48 Mr. Smith.
10:09:48 >>DAVID SMITH: David Smith, city attorney.
10:09:52 Mr. Robinson is referring to the opinion that you
10:09:55 received that Julia Cole provided to me and was
10:09:59 forwarded to you.
10:10:00 Let me probably start by stating what should be
10:10:03 obvious.
10:10:04 This is certainly not from the city attorney's opinion
10:10:09 a race issue.
10:10:10 It deals with whether or not we have an implication of
10:10:12 the sunshine issue.
10:10:14 Now let me explain what Ms. Cole's analysis is.
10:10:18 Her concern is that because you, I say you, it's in
10:10:21 the ordinance that was prepared and approved, or
10:10:24 approved by you and signed by the manager, because the
10:10:27 ordinance specifically indicates that these two bodies
10:10:31 in particular are participating up front, not as other
10:10:34 homeowners associations do.

10:10:37 Other homeowner associations participate after staff
10:10:40 receives the application, talks about efficiency,s,
10:10:46 gets revisions and amendments, perhaps even a revised
10:10:49 site plan.
10:10:50 At that time the process is then forwarded on to other
10:10:54 neighborhood associations participate.
10:10:56 The ordinance as worded does not appear to be a notice
10:10:58 issue.
10:10:59 There is no obligation, there's no penalty, and
10:11:03 there's nothing that describes notice.
10:11:05 So what then is the function of these two committees?
10:11:08 Julia's point is simply that it is ambiguous.
10:11:11 And because it's ambiguous, and if you read her
10:11:14 language, she simply said it could be deemed to
10:11:18 implicate the sunshine act.
10:11:20 She didn't say it is necessarily a sunshine act issue.
10:11:25 She simply indicated there are concerns.
10:11:28 Those of us and those of how deal in the public sector
10:11:30 know that it's almost like every time you run into
10:11:34 each other, you have got to be careful about the
10:11:36 sunshine act.
10:11:37 The point that Ms. Cole was making was not to put the

10:11:40 citizens who are not used to dealing with those issues
10:11:43 at risk.
10:11:44 There's nothing wrong with continuing their
10:11:46 participation.
10:11:48 There's nothing wrong with continuing their
10:11:49 participation if you want to in a way that's earlier
10:11:53 in the process, but I think you should do that as I
10:11:55 think Mr. Dingfelder indicated across the board, and
10:11:58 we should make it clear that any of these potential
10:12:02 interpretations are inapplicable.
10:12:04 So it is not the intent of Ms. Cole's opinion, and I
10:12:08 know her personally, and will certainly never be
10:12:13 anything that I personally recommend that he would
10:12:18 discriminate on the basis of race.
10:12:20 That's wrong and always will be, and we will not
10:12:21 countenance it.
10:12:21 So you need to understand what Ms. Cole's position is.
10:12:24 It's a typical legal concern that most people don't
10:12:28 understand, because we -- I realize that, but that's
10:12:33 really what it is. I want to make sure that's on the
10:12:35 record because I wouldn't want that to not go
10:12:37 unrebutted.

10:12:39 Thank you very much ^ ^.
10:12:41 >>GWEN MILLER: What's a difference when the petitioner
10:12:43 needs with the neighborhood association, goes over
10:12:45 their plans, what they like in this plan and what they
10:12:48 take out, then they come to council.
10:12:50 What's the difference with what the CDC is doing?
10:12:55 >>> There is nothing as you phrase the question but
10:12:56 that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not
10:12:58 there's an obligation on behalf of staff which appears
10:13:00 to be what we have been doing, obligation on behalf of
10:13:04 staff to appear to include a group into that initial
10:13:08 review.
10:13:09 That then becomes potentially an advisory body.
10:13:12 You are not making a recommendation.
10:13:14 They don't want to make the recommendations at that
10:13:16 level.
10:13:17 So it seems to me we have a win-win situation.
10:13:19 We just need to change the language so it takes the
10:13:23 risk out so that they are not potentially a sunshine
10:13:26 act entity and that they can participate to whatever
10:13:29 extent you choose to do so, and to whatever other
10:13:32 homeowners organizations or CDCs you wish to do so.

10:13:38 Need to be part of that process, you're absolutely
10:13:40 right. The question is how you structure it and when
10:13:42 that participation occurs.
10:13:43 That's all.
10:13:45 Nothing other than that.
10:13:45 >>GWEN MILLER: But it wouldn't be in the sunshine, it
10:13:51 would be in a corporation, wouldn't it?
10:13:53 >>> They would not be in the sunshine if there's no
10:13:55 appearance of any delegation of any kind of staff
10:13:57 function. The problem you have -- I'll be the first
10:14:00 one to tell you I'm not happy with a lot of
10:14:02 jurisprudence of the sunshine act.
10:14:04 It leaves us in doubt a lot of times about what to do.
10:14:10 Staff members had these conversations last week about
10:14:13 what we would do in your attendance at Centro Espanol,
10:14:19 was that a sunshine act meeting?
10:14:21 And the question was if you go and don't speak, the
10:14:24 best thing to do if in doubt, and there's a lot of
10:14:28 doubt in this area, is notice it.
10:14:30 Have it at a venue where have been can attend and take
10:14:32 minutes.
10:14:33 It's not that difficult, keeps you guys out of

10:14:36 trouble.
10:14:36 Those of you who weren't here may not remember but
10:14:38 this council got in trouble awhile back for meeting
10:14:41 with the chamber in a legislative update.
10:14:44 Persons wanted to file criminal prosecutions.
10:14:46 I talked to the state's attorney about this issue.
10:14:48 This is serious stuff.
10:14:49 Unfortunately, you run afoul of it inadvertently and
10:14:52 we don't want innocent citizens getting caught up in
10:14:55 that mess.
10:14:56 But that's the issue here.
10:15:00 It's a very strange case, where a little bit of review
10:15:02 about applicants were put in an advisory group.
10:15:06 That was deemed to be a sunshine advisory group.
10:15:08 And having that happened after that was thrown out.
10:15:11 I think we can solve the problem.
10:15:12 I think we can solve the problem in a way that
10:15:14 preserves the CDC, and the other group's participation
10:15:19 in the neighborhood, in a very meaningful and
10:15:22 important way.
10:15:22 That's the goal.
10:15:23 So we really have kind of a tempest in a tea pot.

10:15:29 We just need to make minor corrections to make it
10:15:31 clear you are not delegating some kind of authority.
10:15:34 They are saying they are not exercising.
10:15:36 They are saying they didn't understand it to be such.
10:15:38 Then fine, it's just clarifying.
10:15:51 >>> Randolph: I wanted to clarify backup and the
10:15:54 question to the CDC.
10:15:55 But before I do that, I'm somewhat out of the loop,
10:16:01 why the City Council passed this three years ago if
10:16:04 all these problems were at issue?
10:16:08 I'm totally lost.
10:16:09 Why would it accomplish that task, come back later,
10:16:12 say, oh, it didn't do it.
10:16:13 Secondly, I did want to make the record clear and I
10:16:17 asked the attorney to refer to -- we in fact are under
10:16:23 the sunshine law.
10:16:24 Everything that the CDC does because we have a public
10:16:28 entity, put that under the sunshine law.
10:16:34 That is the federal government as well as the state
10:16:36 government so please do the research.
10:16:38 As it relates to the CDC, the CDC was formed in 1999.
10:16:42 We opened the doors in 2001.

10:16:44 The CDC, we are driven by the neighborhood.
10:16:51 We are the staff of the neighborhood.
10:16:55 The shareholders that shape us is the residents.
10:16:58 They are our shareholders.
10:17:02 As it relates to the vote of the CDC, we coordinate,
10:17:12 we advocate and serve the community as I mentioned
10:17:16 earlier.
10:17:17 Our vision is clear, to create a strong community.
10:17:22 Get this last part.
10:17:24 Where change occurs within.
10:17:27 The mission is clear.
10:17:30 Now, as it relates to the CDC in our special study,
10:17:35 again, the federal government looks at the special
10:17:38 study, as you know, when the government calls for
10:17:41 money, they call it block grant money.
10:17:44 When we call for money they call it social service
10:17:47 money.
10:17:48 We have a special status as it relates to the federal
10:17:50 government and the state government.
10:17:54 Quite candidly the government cannot bring.
10:17:57 The government has begun a reduction in.
10:18:00 We can create new market to the table.

10:18:03 We can bring low income tax tows people who live in
10:18:06 our neighborhood, the enterprise zone.
10:18:08 We can offer special credits to businesses who come to
10:18:13 the city neighborhood.
10:18:18 It says you cannot designate to the CDC for the
10:18:23 purposes -- and we have a tax exempt status. Let's
10:18:28 say give the CDC 25000.
10:18:34 For affordable homes.
10:18:37 Example.
10:18:38 That developer that gives 525,000 can get a tax
10:18:47 writeoff and be a win-win situation. The CDC merely
10:18:51 wants to be a partner with the city and we are going
10:18:55 we have to partner, and we have to we have to do it
10:19:02 together.
10:19:02 Again we are not here in confrontation.
10:19:05 We are here pleading for the community.
10:19:08 Again, we are the staff of the neighborhood.
10:19:10 And we ask you to consider some mechanism that allows
10:19:16 the community to stay in the process.
10:19:21 We call it community empowerment.
10:19:23 Thank you.
10:19:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott.

10:19:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chair, we are losing council
10:19:28 here.
10:19:28 They need to be in here so they can hear what I got to
10:19:31 say.
10:19:33 And all these side bars right now need to be in here.
10:19:37 Let me just say -- let me just say to Dr. Fisher, who
10:19:41 I have the utmost respect for, regard very highly, who
10:19:45 is very capable, very competent, very articulate, to
10:19:50 the CDC of West Tampa, I think the use of words or
10:19:57 language or terminology has been the issue here.
10:20:05 I think from my perspective we want all neighborhoods
10:20:08 to be empowered.
10:20:09 I will tell you across the whole City of Tampa,
10:20:12 neighborhoods are very much empowered from where I
10:20:14 come from.
10:20:16 You are extremely empowered across the City of Tampa,
10:20:19 okay?
10:20:19 And I applaud that.
10:20:23 And it should be.
10:20:24 I think the issue becomes, when it comes to zoning
10:20:26 issues -- and please understand me, you have to be
10:20:29 very careful about what I am about to say -- it is a

10:20:32 zoning issue that we are referencing and talking
10:20:34 about, not the status of the CDC, not what your goals
10:20:38 and objectives are, and you should move forward with
10:20:41 that.
10:20:41 You ought to want to be empowered to improve your
10:20:44 neighborhoods.
10:20:45 I support that.
10:20:46 100%.
10:20:47 But when it comes to zoning issues, according to state
10:20:52 statute and the ordinance, only one body has that
10:20:55 authority.
10:20:56 And that's this body sitting right here.
10:20:58 And so what happens is, based on -- and I'm new here.
10:21:02 I can't say I'm new now but fairly new -- that when we
10:21:06 came it was said in these chambers that we could not
10:21:09 approve the plan unless we had the approval of the
10:21:13 West Tampa -- it was said here.
10:21:15 You have to go get the minutes.
10:21:16 And that's what became the issue.
10:21:18 Now, also keep in mind, too, when there is a zoning,
10:21:22 we cannot tie -- let me back up.
10:21:28 We can.

10:21:30 But you have to be careful in tying some mechanism of
10:21:35 funding to that process in order to get support.
10:21:38 Because you are treading on dangerous ground.
10:21:41 I'm just telling you from my experience.
10:21:42 If you want to do something, say, okay, you don't
10:21:45 support us for affordable housing, fine.
10:21:47 But don't tie it to a zoning issue.
10:21:49 That's where your problems are.
10:21:51 You can't be tied to a zoning issue.
10:21:54 You want to say somebody is going to come in and give
10:21:57 you a million dollars for social certifications.
10:22:00 You can do that.
10:22:00 But it cannot be tied to a zoning issue.
10:22:05 That's where a lot of the miscommunication takes
10:22:08 place.
10:22:08 And so I want to say to Dr. Fisher and to the CDC of
10:22:13 West Tampa, we applaud you.
10:22:14 We implore you to continue to move forward and empower
10:22:19 the neighborhood and have input.
10:22:20 I think the issue is being careful that reword it so
10:22:26 they find themselves under investigation, we don't
10:22:28 find ourselves then taken off in handcuffs.

10:22:32 I think it's important.
10:22:33 And so I think what we are trying to do is protect
10:22:37 everybody here.
10:22:38 That's the whole objective, is oh to make sure that
10:22:41 you are protected and that we are protected.
10:22:43 And I think it's very important.
10:22:45 So I don't want anybody leaving thinking that this
10:22:47 council, one, is trying to undermine the process, or
10:22:50 to undermine the West Tampa CDC.
10:22:52 I don't think that at all.
10:22:54 And I don't think this is a racial issue.
10:23:00 I have known Julia Cole for years.
10:23:02 She worked for the county commission, and with the
10:23:06 city.
10:23:06 That's not the issue today.
10:23:07 The issue today is process.
10:23:10 The issue today is following the Florida statute and
10:23:13 the Florida law.
10:23:14 And I would be the first one to tell you, everything
10:23:17 is not racial.
10:23:19 Some things are.
10:23:21 But this issue is not a racial issue.

10:23:23 This issue that we are dealing with today is dealing
10:23:26 with the state law and how we handle zoning issues.
10:23:30 That's what this issue is about as far as I am
10:23:33 concerned today.
10:23:33 So I just want us to be clear on that from my
10:23:37 perspective.
10:23:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Cole, where do we go from here?
10:23:42 >>JULIA COLE: She actually came over with what I think
10:23:48 might be a good solution that may assist in this issue
10:23:51 and maybe with some other issues.
10:23:57 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
10:24:08 Am I addressing the potential solution?
10:24:12 This would be a city-wide approach.
10:24:14 And the last cycle for text amendments we did add in
10:24:18 that text amendments can be processed off cycle if
10:24:20 it's a proposal matter so we could do this immediately
10:24:26 with the public hearings be set.
10:24:27 Just to clarify the point you made earlier about how
10:24:29 many site plans we received, we received 20 site plans
10:24:32 actually through a PD rezoning.
10:24:34 We could require through the application process and
10:24:37 through the code that they supply 21.

10:24:39 When they a you reply to the office we staff in the
10:24:44 plans. The 21st site plan we could stamp and make
10:24:47 part of the application an affidavit that requires
10:24:49 them to mail to whatever association it happens to be,
10:24:53 and they would have to mail certificate of mailing and
10:24:56 return that affidavit back to us by the DRC,
10:24:59 development review committee meeting, which is 30 days
10:25:01 after submittal.
10:25:02 If that affidavit doesn't come in, when would not let
10:25:05 the case move forward until the site plan does get
10:25:07 mailed.
10:25:08 And that way, it's essentially equitable, costs the --
10:25:12 every association would get the same notice and the
10:25:14 same site plan.
10:25:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I was going oh to say that's
10:25:18 exactly what Mr. Dingfelder said you stated in more
10:25:21 profound language, were how the process works for the
10:25:23 receiving of the document.
10:25:25 And I think that was the intent of the council.
10:25:27 I think when they voted on that, to do it in that
10:25:31 fashion.
10:25:32 And at this time, I just want to echo what Reverend

10:25:34 Scott said on the other item that we haven't finished.
10:25:41 There's no change in anybody's voice.
10:25:43 There's no exchange in the overhead committee.
10:25:45 There is no change in the neighborhood.
10:25:47 There is no change in the crime watch.
10:25:49 There's no change on anything, that structure with
10:25:53 noble causes that they have done in their
10:25:54 neighborhood.
10:25:55 No one in this council wants to see crime go up.
10:25:57 No one wants to see dilapidated houses.
10:26:02 No one wants ton see anything from one neighborhood to
10:26:06 another neighborhood.
10:26:07 That's not the question. The question that was stated
10:26:08 is that the difference is -- and that's on the zoning
10:26:11 issue -- you are required to do that.
10:26:14 Once you are required to go there, every developer in
10:26:17 any part of the city, would have to be what I call a
10:26:23 R-idiot, that's an idiot twice, to go and meet with
10:26:28 the neighborhood association, they are not required to
10:26:29 meet with them, by law.
10:26:31 They send a notice out of courtesy, and they send out
10:26:39 to the 250 feet from that applicant so the public in

10:26:42 general, those members and nonmembers of a civic
10:26:45 organization, you don't have to be a member, you still
10:26:48 are required to make that notice.
10:26:49 And they do that.
10:26:50 It comes back to the process.
10:26:52 You are notified.
10:26:53 And Mr. Dingfelder's motion that I agree with and the
10:26:57 whole council I think agrees with, where you get the
10:27:01 exact thing that the city gets at the same time,
10:27:03 basically.
10:27:03 You have the same review period.
10:27:06 Tough same process.
10:27:07 And that's the only statement I'm going to make.
10:27:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, council, I just wanted to share
10:27:17 with regard to ordinances when they are created,
10:27:20 sometimes in the course of implementing the ordinances
10:27:23 or the application of the ordinance, sometimes they
10:27:26 can be unintended inferences that are created, that
10:27:29 may need to be cured.
10:27:30 And I believe in looking at this, one of the things
10:27:34 that I believe Ms. Cole attracted her attention was
10:27:38 the fact that it was required, the plans were required

10:27:40 to be submitted for review, and that is not something
10:27:43 else that appears anywhere with regard to notice
10:27:46 provision.
10:27:47 So there may be an inference created there, which I
10:27:50 believe is the legal department's job, and I would
10:27:54 agree with it, is to at least advise you as to
10:27:57 concerns that may be created when these things exist,
10:28:01 and may be required for the code to be revisited to
10:28:04 correct maybe unintended inferences.
10:28:07 I don't think there was any -- I know there was no
10:28:11 disrespect intended or meant by this being addressed.
10:28:20 >>DAVID SMITH: In order to try to get some closure,
10:28:24 one of the things that you need to be aware of that
10:28:27 Ms. Cole is recommending is by making it a notice
10:28:30 requirement, the applicant will be unable to go
10:28:33 forward with his request.
10:28:38 Right now, the penalty for not communicating with
10:28:41 these two items doesn't exist.
10:28:43 So it actually strengthens their role by making the
10:28:47 application out of order and unable to go forward.
10:28:51 So I understand where we are at.
10:28:52 I think if it come back as a proposal that parallel

10:29:01 with something Mr. Dingfelder said as elaborated by
10:29:04 Cathy Coyle for your further consideration.
10:29:06 Sorry about the voice.
10:29:10 But that's what I understand you to be saying.
10:29:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:29:14 First I really have to compliment the West Tampa CDC.
10:29:18 I worked for four years in West Tampa.
10:29:20 We succeeded in getting the SunTrust bank in there and
10:29:25 a police substation but after four years of work I
10:29:27 would have expected a lot more progress than that and
10:29:30 frankly it was very rough going.
10:29:31 Dr. Fisher, you really have led an effort to coalesce
10:29:36 people and move things forward.
10:29:38 We are seeing tremendous investment in West Tampa.
10:29:40 We are seeing people have the resources to fix up
10:29:42 their homes and you and Michael and everybody everyone
10:29:45 is to be commended for how much you accomplished.
10:29:47 It's really gratifying to see.
10:29:48 I think this compromise proposal here before us is a
10:29:51 good one.
10:29:51 So I would like to move to ask legal to write it up.
10:29:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I second it.

10:29:58 And if I could just clarify.
10:30:02 The little only little minor concern, I hate to bring
10:30:08 but I need to and they brought it up themselves
10:30:10 N.itself case of like West Tampa, we think the mayor's
10:30:13 group is the neighborhood association for riverfront,
10:30:16 right, Ruth?
10:30:17 And on top of that you have the CDC which I think they
10:30:20 mentioned covers about eight neighborhood
10:30:21 associations.
10:30:22 So I'm just going to trust staff to figure that out,
10:30:25 because I think it's important that when we require
10:30:28 this mailing for the -- from the applicant, that in
10:30:31 these unique situations of the East Tampa and West
10:30:34 Tampa CDC, that they might have to actually mail to
10:30:38 the neighborhood association, so we get it as well as
10:30:41 to the CDC, so they get it, too. I just think staff
10:30:44 can work that out.
10:30:45 It's not a big deal.
10:30:46 But I just wanted to bring it up so we don't have any
10:30:49 confusion and the CDC gets lost in the process.
10:30:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Is that included in your motion?
10:30:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Linda motion.

10:30:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
10:30:58 >>GWEN MILLER: That the CDC and the neighborhood gets
10:31:01 it.
10:31:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The two CDCs.
10:31:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We had a lot of discussion today and I
10:31:07 want to make sure that Dr. Fisher understand it is
10:31:10 actions of the council.
10:31:13 I'll be more than happy if she doesn't meet with her
10:31:18 to further explain.
10:31:20 >>> Yes, I do understand in part.
10:31:23 I have one question.
10:31:25 This has been happening for three years.
10:31:28 We have been reviewing and it's not a requirement that
10:31:41 we receive by the city.
10:31:42 That's not a requirement.
10:31:43 They don't have to send us a plan.
10:31:45 My only question is, this has been going on for almost
10:31:49 three years.
10:31:51 What is the problem now?
10:31:54 We have had -- and I had Michael do a little research.
10:32:01 We have reviewed 67 proposals, or what do we call
10:32:10 them, Michael?

10:32:11 Waivers.
10:32:12 67.
10:32:13 I think we have an excellent track record.
10:32:17 We have not disagreed -- we have only disagreed with
10:32:24 one.
10:32:25 What is the problem now?
10:32:31 Why are we bringing this discussion?
10:32:36 What is the problem now?
10:32:38 When it has not been a problem in the past?
10:32:41 What is the problem now?
10:32:45 >>CHAIRMAN: Reverend Scott.
10:32:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: May I suggest --
10:32:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Please turn off your cell phones.
10:32:49 Please turn off your cell phones.
10:32:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Smith, may I suggest that counsel
10:32:57 meet with Dr. Fisher and whoever and go over that
10:33:00 again because that will take some time to address
10:33:02 again because that takes us back through the whole
10:33:05 process again.
10:33:06 So it sounds to me like you all neither need to meet
10:33:08 with them and explain --
10:33:12 >>> Dr. Fisher: I understand.

10:33:13 I understand.
10:33:14 But we try not to, as a CDC, and I have to take off
10:33:21 the resident hat and put on the CDC hat -- we don't
10:33:30 tie anything to zoning.
10:33:31 We don't do that.
10:33:32 That's been said and we don't do that.
10:33:34 We have never done that.
10:33:36 I think if we have been doing that, you would have had
10:33:41 many complaints.
10:33:42 But we have been doing this for three years.
10:33:45 And you have not had a complaint.
10:33:47 Why now?
10:33:51 And I don't need the council to meet with me,
10:33:56 because -- I mean, to tell me that we have been maybe
10:34:01 rubber stamping and just agreeing.
10:34:04 But we have worked with the people.
10:34:06 We have worked with the developers and others who have
10:34:11 come before us at the CDC.
10:34:13 We have not had a problem with the overlay.
10:34:17 We have Nevada had a problem.
10:34:18 We have reviewed at least 67.
10:34:26 The only one that we did not -- don't pass anything,

10:34:29 as I said earlier.
10:34:31 And this has been going on.
10:34:34 Until we agree.
10:34:38 What is the problem now?
10:34:39 What is the issue?
10:34:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The motion is for 30 days.
10:34:52 >>DAVID SMITH: I would be happy to respond to that for
10:34:54 you.
10:34:54 As I understand from Ms. Cole, what happened was there
10:34:58 were several instances in which there was a, quote,
10:35:02 off-record agreement that was being negotiated with, I
10:35:05 believe it was West Tampa CDC, with respect to
10:35:09 contribution of funds to an affordable housing
10:35:12 program.
10:35:13 The desire was or there was a discussion on part of
10:35:16 the staff to include that as a condition in a site
10:35:19 plan.
10:35:20 I believe Mrs. Cole indicated at the time -- and
10:35:23 Julia, you can correct -- Julia, since she handled
10:35:26 this -- Ms. Cole can correct me if I am wrong but I
10:35:29 believe she indicated at the time that we could not
10:35:33 put on a site plan a condition such as that, because

10:35:36 it is not consistent with the ordinances.
10:35:41 That's how the discussion got started.
10:35:45 How the criminal investigation got started is beyond
10:35:47 me but it that is why the topic was generated.
10:35:50 It wasn't generated out of thin air.
10:35:52 It came up because of some matters before you and
10:35:58 that's why the timing is as it is.
10:36:00 Now rather than engage at a lot of useless -- I think
10:36:05 we should focus on trying to solve the problem.
10:36:07 I think we can solve the problem along the same man
10:36:11 theory Ms. Cole suggested to you.
10:36:12 We will include the CDCs, these two and any others
10:36:15 that happen to be created, in any notice requirements
10:36:19 that's appropriate under the ordinances.
10:36:20 It will be in the ordinances.
10:36:21 It will be clear.
10:36:23 The process will be clear.
10:36:24 We won't have anybody's integrity at issue at any
10:36:28 time.
10:36:28 So I just wanted to provide at least the context,
10:36:31 fortunate or unfortunate, that's what happened.
10:36:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.

10:36:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
10:36:37 Dr. Fisher, let me just clarify one other thing.
10:36:41 We all read in the paper, sometimes in Tallahassee,
10:36:43 they pass a law, and that law will sit on the books
10:36:46 for a couple of years and then somebody will challenge
10:36:48 it for whatever reason, as being illegal, as being not
10:36:53 Constitutional, as having language that's
10:36:55 inappropriate.
10:36:55 And in that case in Tallahassee, it goes through the
10:36:57 courts, eventually the supreme court will strike it
10:37:01 down and say, you know what?
10:37:03 The legislature meant well when they passed this
10:37:06 particular law, whatever it is, but for whatever
10:37:10 reason, and in this case it's one word, okay, it gets
10:37:15 struck down as unconstitutional and then the
10:37:17 legislature has to revisit it.
10:37:19 I'm just drawing that as a parallel because that's
10:37:21 what we have here.
10:37:22 I think three or four years have chugged along and I
10:37:25 agree with you.
10:37:26 Everything has been fine in terms of the process.
10:37:28 I agree with you 100%, about watch what you all do.

10:37:32 You all do a great job.
10:37:34 Linda mentioned it a minute ago.
10:37:35 The problem is, for whatever reason, you know, legal
10:37:40 staff looked at this and said, now what?
10:37:42 That word, that one word, creates several different
10:37:48 top problems.
10:37:49 It creates sunshine issues, equal protection issues.
10:37:52 Big issues that could potentially risk a lot of things
10:37:57 for the city.
10:37:58 So I think that --
10:38:04 >>> That has not happened with us.
10:38:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm not saying --
10:38:07 >>> And I respect what you said.
10:38:08 I respect what all of you are saying and I think you
10:38:11 know that.
10:38:11 But my thing is, because something happened, and doo
10:38:22 WA diddly, we are being penalized for doing a good
10:38:26 job, for following the law.
10:38:27 And we tried to do that.
10:38:28 We have not tied anything to zoning.
10:38:31 People that have come to us have come because they
10:38:37 were sent by the city to us.

10:38:39 Many of them came because they wanted to do the right
10:38:43 thing.
10:38:43 They wanted us to have a say as to what's going to
10:38:46 happen in our community.
10:38:47 And when they came to us, everything that we did was
10:38:51 tied to the city.
10:38:53 Everything.
10:38:55 The city took -- takes the lead.
10:38:59 Every project that we have.
10:39:02 Ones that we have had, an ones that we are currently
10:39:05 working on.
10:39:07 The city takes the lead.
10:39:09 We don't tie anything to zoning.
10:39:11 We know not to do that.
10:39:13 But because something happens someplace else --
10:39:23 councilwomen and men, that's not fair.
10:39:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I just wanted to further clarify.
10:39:30 Mrs. Saul-Sena's motion and my second has no way is a
10:39:34 reflection on that.
10:39:37 I would say Mrs. Saul-Sena and myself and the rest of
10:39:41 council, we are not accusing you of doing anything
10:39:43 wrong whatsoever in making this motion.

10:39:44 The problem is legal has now told us that we have a
10:39:47 problem in that ordinance, one word.
10:39:49 Okay, that creates these problems.
10:39:50 So we are just trying to fix it in a very fair way.
10:39:53 The fairest way we can do this is to demand that all
10:39:58 developers send one site plan to all of the groups
10:40:01 across the entire city.
10:40:02 I think it's a great improvement for all groups
10:40:04 including your group because there's a demand that you
10:40:08 get one of the site plans, no ifs, ands or buts.
10:40:13 And I'm sure as a matter of course, we encourage to
10:40:16 you continue with your review.
10:40:18 There is nothing that's going to be on the books that
10:40:20 says you shouldn't do your review.
10:40:22 Just like every other neighborhood group, no matter
10:40:26 what, should do a review of these site plans when you
10:40:28 get them.
10:40:29 You should continue to review and you should continue
10:40:31 to give us your input.
10:40:32 The only thing Charlie is saying, give us your input,
10:40:35 you know, you can do a written report and send it to
10:40:37 us and we will read it at the public hearing, or come

10:40:40 to us at the public hearing, but there is nothing we
10:40:42 are doing that says that you should quit reviewing
10:40:44 these.
10:40:45 As a matter of fact, would say contrary, please,
10:40:48 please continue to do the review that you have been
10:40:49 doing.
10:40:51 >>GWEN MILLER: We are go still going to review them,
10:40:54 why change the word?
10:40:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Because legal said we are in a
10:40:59 little jeopardy if we just leave that word alone.
10:41:05 [Sounding gavel]
10:41:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council.
10:41:10 >>CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second.
10:41:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Nay.
10:41:16 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Miller voting no.
10:41:20 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to item number 6.
10:41:31 >>JULIE KABOUGERIS: Legal department.
10:41:32 I'm here on item number 6 regarding a request from
10:41:35 legal department on regulating sex predators, in
10:41:42 living facilities similar to what the county enacted.
10:41:47 I provided you with a copy of some bullet points of
10:41:50 that ordinance and a copy of the ordinance, the

10:41:53 county's ordinance that's been enacted.
10:42:05 It's countywide so it applies to the city as well and
10:42:07 enforced by TPD.
10:42:10 That ordinance -- to apply to the county for
10:42:17 designation.
10:42:19 They applied through a process which is attached to
10:42:22 your materials.
10:42:24 They applied to the county for designation of the
10:42:27 senior safety zone.
10:42:31 When the designation occurs, such predators are
10:42:35 prohibited of living within a thousand feet of those
10:42:37 zones.
10:42:38 A sign must be posted for the process purposes.
10:42:46 And if the city's intended goals and purposes are in
10:42:48 line with the county's, we recommend that the city
10:42:52 stay with the county standard, county ordinance, so
10:42:56 that it's countywide across the city already.
10:43:04 Do you have any questions?
10:43:15 >> What we have is to is for the city to take any
10:43:19 action or choose to remove ourselves from it.
10:43:23 Are those our choices?
10:43:25 >> Julie K.: Yes, that's correct.

10:43:30 >> Do you anticipate any problems if we continue the
10:43:32 way we are which is to be a part of it?
10:43:37 >> No, because it's being enforced by the TPD, by the
10:43:41 sheriff's office, be enforced in the same way.
10:43:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:43:45 Item number 7.
10:43:50 >> Sonny Miller, growth management development
10:43:56 services.
10:43:58 I did didn't to your offices yesterday a written
10:44:01 report that includes the affordable housing task force
10:44:05 recommendation.
10:44:06 I do have additional copies if they are not necessary
10:44:10 for today.
10:44:11 I don't know if you require them.
10:44:12 I will give a copy also to the clerk.
10:44:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to receive and file.
10:44:25 >> Second.
10:44:27 >> Cindy Miller: Waive basically submitted is a
10:44:39 summary of the pages that were in a motion from --
10:44:45 about two or three months ago of the recommendation of
10:44:48 the affordable housing task force that was chaired by
10:44:52 Reverend Scott when he was a county commissioner,

10:44:54 which you have in your first tab is the actual -- from
10:45:00 that task force report. The second set of documents
10:45:03 is the recommendations restated and then responsive as
10:45:07 to where we are within the City of Tampa, as to each
10:45:11 recommendation, as to whether we have already
10:45:12 implemented, whether there is something we are log at,
10:45:15 or whether there's other means by which we accomplish
10:45:19 it.
10:45:19 So from that standpoint, we are basically at about 80
10:45:23 or 90% of the recommendations.
10:45:25 The last item is a response that I presented to you
10:45:28 verbally at a meeting based upon some concerns raised
10:45:31 by the East Tampa business and civic association about
10:45:34 90 days ago, but that I have not had in writing for
10:45:38 that meeting.
10:45:38 So therefore I wanted you to be able to have that
10:45:41 response.
10:45:42 Specifically, the motion had asked for review of these
10:45:46 recommendations incentives.
10:45:48 Also including a review of waiver of impact fees for
10:45:52 affordable housing, looking at whether an affordable
10:45:55 housing trust can be developed, transfer of

10:45:57 development rights, and waiver of certain parking
10:46:00 requirements.
10:46:01 When it comes to impact fees, I had my staff do a
10:46:05 quick survey of surrounding jurisdictions.
10:46:11 For those jurisdictions we found that impact fees
10:46:13 themselves are not waived, meaning it's not where they
10:46:16 are completely not paid to the city for these items.
10:46:19 However, another source of funding is usually found
10:46:23 other than to have it be paid, say, from the developer
10:46:26 or contractor.
10:46:27 As an example, I believe Hillsborough County has
10:46:31 investigated using general fund money to pay the
10:46:33 impact fees to these various enterprise funds.
10:46:37 In our case, what our recommendation is, when it comes
10:46:42 to certain impact fees for affordable housing, it is
10:46:48 affordable housing that we are helping to fund, that
10:46:51 this either, number one, could get developed from the
10:46:55 standpoint of it is a construction cost that is
10:46:59 appropriate, that can be funded through federal and
10:47:00 state plans, or if it's an individual, that again we
10:47:06 can provide through federal and state grants the means
10:47:08 by which the impact fees could be paid.

10:47:12 Impact fees, just so everyone realizes things, a lot
10:47:17 of them are utilities, a lot of them are school impact
10:47:20 fees, paid to other jurisdictions, paid to the school
10:47:22 board, water, well, not so much water but other
10:47:27 transportation, various other things, where it is
10:47:30 necessary for those departments to put in the
10:47:34 infrastructure or to pay for infrastructure that has
10:47:38 already been put in place which is the case for our
10:47:40 wastewater department.
10:47:41 It's not where you can just waive and don't pay them
10:47:47 but we are looking at an alternative source.
10:47:50 I need to review our documentation with the federal
10:47:52 and state granting agencies, HUD, and the state as
10:47:55 well, to make sure that we amend our program to be
10:47:59 able to do this.
10:48:00 And also then look at our contracts that we have, with
10:48:04 either not for profit organizations or other entities,
10:48:06 to be able to see how that can be handled.
10:48:09 So I will need to come back to you at a later date if
10:48:11 that is one thing we are looking at.
10:48:15 For other items such as transfer of development
10:48:17 rights, transfer development rights has come up in

10:48:20 other cases, whether it's historic preservation or
10:48:24 other review of where density should go, or other
10:48:31 zoning matters.
10:48:32 So, therefore, that is again something that I will
10:48:34 need to come back to you all, not so much me but our
10:48:38 legal staff along with zoning staff to be able to talk
10:48:41 about transfer of development rights on a true
10:48:43 comprehensive basis.
10:48:45 And when it comes to waiver of parking, I believe that
10:48:49 council already has significant authorization when it
10:48:54 comes to a PD or rezoning coming before you.
10:48:56 That is something that a developer can request.
10:48:58 I believe something of that nature has occurred for
10:49:01 senior housing.
10:49:02 And also if a development is close to the reps so you
10:49:09 have authority within zoning criteria.
10:49:12 As to establishing a separate housing trust fund, we
10:49:14 at the city utilize federal and state grants primarily
10:49:17 for this.
10:49:19 And when it comes to establishing a separate fund,
10:49:23 that is going to basically determine that those
10:49:25 sources of funding is the best way that we can address

10:49:27 that.
10:49:28 So that basically concludes my comments, if you have
10:49:30 any questions.
10:49:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena?
10:49:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Ms. Miller.
10:49:36 This is a good start.
10:49:37 One of the words that struck me as being used a lot is
10:49:39 the word research.
10:49:41 And that's good because you recognize the areas which
10:49:43 we need to do it.
10:49:45 I was going to point out to you that the University of
10:49:46 South Florida, in a number of departments, has
10:49:50 graduate level people who we can use to supplement our
10:49:53 city staff, because I know we are constrained right
10:49:55 now.
10:49:56 But there's a lot of work that needs to do, and what I
10:49:59 would love to see come of this is something that's
10:50:01 available.
10:50:02 If someone were to come to you and say, I recognize I
10:50:06 should probably create some affordable housing as part
10:50:09 of my project, that you can give them a listing of all
10:50:11 the different components that you have here saying,

10:50:13 this is available to you, that's available to you.
10:50:16 I understand from a previous report, Mr. Caetano's,
10:50:21 Thom Snelling is working with the city, with Mr.
10:50:29 Caetano's building and zoning committee, to expedite
10:50:32 green building.
10:50:33 In terms of a person affording long-term housing,
10:50:36 affordable housing, if you build green and you can
10:50:39 show that that the cost allows you to borrow more
10:50:43 money, it's totally good.
10:50:45 What you mentioned about not having to put all the
10:50:47 parking in, we need to make it not something that
10:50:50 somebody asks about, but something that we underscore
10:50:55 if you are near, let's say, a road with transit
10:50:58 service, you are not required to put in the same
10:51:01 number of parking spaces.
10:51:02 That's a significant barrier to affordability, is
10:51:06 providing parking that our very suburban code
10:51:10 currently requires.
10:51:11 So we need to just make it as easy and clear and
10:51:14 supportive as possible for developers to include
10:51:17 affordable housing.
10:51:20 When do you think you will have something like this?

10:51:23 In six months or 90 days?
10:51:25 When can you come back?
10:51:27 >>> I think we can certainly do an update in it -- 90
10:51:30 days and I think perhaps once you review it will
10:51:32 determine whether an appearance is necessary.
10:51:34 And let me point out one thing that is already in your
10:51:36 report.
10:51:37 There are already particular tracts of land that we
10:51:40 are talking with the builders association, talking
10:51:41 with various contractors that are involved with green
10:51:44 initiatives and sustainability.
10:51:45 And we are hoping that working with our city staff as
10:51:48 well as with other entities, corporations, and
10:51:54 utilizing again affordable housing money, as well as
10:51:57 coordinating on green initiatives, we will be able to
10:52:00 have a development, a small development, but perhaps
10:52:05 be able to have a dozen houses that would have
10:52:08 sustainable components within them and be affordable.
10:52:13 >> That's great.
10:52:13 I think the private sector might be able to step up to
10:52:16 that even more quickly than we can.
10:52:17 >>> Well, that is our intention.

10:52:18 We want them to spend the money.
10:52:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Ms. Miller.
10:52:25 Very comprehensive as always.
10:52:29 The question I have -- and Charlie, you are really
10:52:31 good at these expressions, but talking about history,
10:52:34 without history, we don't know -- we don't know where
10:52:39 we have been, we don't know where we are going.
10:52:41 And what I am wondering about is annual reports.
10:52:47 You know, do we have a comprehensive history of
10:52:53 reports about, you know, not just about the city's
10:52:57 production of units, but I think it's very important
10:53:02 that we know where we have been, and, more
10:53:05 importantly, in future years, how worry doing.
10:53:08 I think we made annual reports on how many units the
10:53:13 city has built.
10:53:14 How many units, nonprofits have built, how many units
10:53:17 the private sector has built.
10:53:18 It's a report card.
10:53:20 And in that way, you know, year by year, we can know
10:53:24 if we are going forward or backward.
10:53:26 There's so many sort of loosey goosey issues, but in
10:53:32 terms of tangible numbers, then we will have, you

10:53:34 know, better answers and we'll know if we need to do
10:53:38 more or if we are doing a good job.
10:53:39 We can pat ourselves on the back right now which a lot
10:53:41 of this report and say we are already doing this, we
10:53:44 are already doing that.
10:53:45 How does that translate into terms of numbers?
10:53:48 And so I think that that's something that I would love
10:53:50 to see staff think about a little bit, and when you
10:53:54 get back with us on Mrs. Saul-Sena's issue, if I can
10:53:58 piggyback on that, to also give us an idea about the
10:54:01 feasibility of that type of report.
10:54:05 Cindy Miller: We can certainly do that.
10:54:09 Reports to the state and federal governments as well
10:54:11 as our community planning looks at it from the
10:54:13 city-wide standpoint as to how we are doing.
10:54:16 Perhaps if I am back to see you in about 90 days that
10:54:19 will be a little after the year-end.
10:54:21 And from that standpoint we would be able to do that
10:54:23 along with an update of where we stand on the issue.
10:54:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Then continue that on an annual
10:54:29 basis so future councils will have that.
10:54:32 I think that's extremely valuable.

10:54:33 Thank you.
10:54:35 >>> And one thing to tack onto that.
10:54:36 When it comes to this report on the affordable housing
10:54:39 task force I really want to thank Reverend Scott,
10:54:41 because from the standpoint of not only his work with
10:54:43 you as a county commission but actually having a
10:54:47 sit-down and go through this report and respond to
10:54:50 where we stand does give us a great report card.
10:54:58 Maybe it's sort of an incomplete but it would give us
10:55:01 a 90-day basis or go to six months, something of that
10:55:05 nature.
10:55:05 It helps me from the overall management standpoint to
10:55:07 see how we are doing and bring all the right
10:55:10 divisions, groups.
10:55:11 I also think it will be very helpful.
10:55:13 I had some conversations with various neighborhood
10:55:16 associations and not for profits, is that we probably
10:55:19 need to put a little bit of a best practices group
10:55:21 together, so that we are getting input from the folks
10:55:27 out in the neighborhood, and whether that's
10:55:29 contractors, as well as folks representing the
10:55:33 not-for-profit organizations.

10:55:34 So that we can get input from a practical standpoint
10:55:38 which is very, very helpful.
10:55:41 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern.
10:55:43 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm just leaving through the county
10:55:46 task force report.
10:55:48 I'm wondering, we should probably adopt -- the work
10:55:53 has already been done.
10:55:54 So if we could, for instance, as we are looking at our
10:55:59 comp plan, we should take that into account and write
10:56:03 those into our comp plan.
10:56:05 Basically, the same thing that was recommended to the
10:56:07 county.
10:56:08 And if we just try to adopt that, and land development
10:56:11 regulations and building codes, and all of these
10:56:14 things, we have basically got the recommendations
10:56:19 here.
10:56:20 >>MARY MULHERN: And could you tell us where we are
10:56:24 with that or talk about that when we come back in 90
10:56:26 days?
10:56:27 >> Basically we have what we already adopted under tab
10:56:30 2.
10:56:30 If I could point out that chapter 27 already has an

10:56:33 authorization when you consider density bonuses.
10:56:36 That a developer can come with a plan for permanent
10:56:38 affordable housing within that development for
10:56:42 considering density bonuses.
10:56:44 So I think with that, we'll be able to -- and the
10:56:47 comprehensive plan, you are going to have a briefing
10:56:48 this afternoon on it and you will have ongoing
10:56:50 discussions with the Planning Commission staff, that
10:56:53 is certainly something that we are very encouraged
10:56:56 that we do have included in that and the comprehensive
10:57:01 plan for the future.
10:57:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you for that report.
10:57:04 Mr. Santiago Corrada, you can do number 26 for us?
10:57:10 >> I would like to formalize a motion in 90 days we
10:57:13 get a report back from Ms. Mill we are a report on the
10:57:19 ho opportunities that support that in the city and
10:57:21 that include Mr. Dingfelder's suggestion that it's a
10:57:25 baseline of how we are doing in terms of units we
10:57:28 create and the nonprofits create.
10:57:29 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:57:33 (Motion carried).
10:57:36 >> Santiago Corrada, neighborhood services

10:57:43 administrator.
10:57:44 The resolution that you have before you --
10:57:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I want to say, Mrs. West on the task
10:57:54 force and representing administration has done an
10:57:56 excellent job and also continuing in an advisory board
10:57:59 capacity.
10:58:00 I don't think it's been established yet, but also
10:58:02 continuing in an advisory board capacity that will
10:58:04 have a lot of input onto the affordable housing in
10:58:08 Hillsborough County.
10:58:08 Also, Mr. Rotella.
10:58:10 I want him to come forward.
10:58:11 We worked with him with the county establishing a land
10:58:17 trust and also that particular project on affordable
10:58:23 housing.
10:58:25 He may want to speak with us, Mr. Rotella.
10:58:30 >>RON ROTELLA: The only comment I want to make, and I
10:58:32 appreciate council's recognition -- I keep saying
10:58:36 Commissioner Scott.
10:58:37 Council member's Scott and this whole issue of
10:58:40 affordable housing, is thanks to councilman Scott when
10:58:44 he was a commissioner, teak the initiative to take was

10:58:48 what was formerly city owned land and had it
10:58:53 transferred into a land trust that Carlton Fields is
10:58:56 setting up.
10:58:57 The only problem I have with the recommendation, and I
10:58:59 know Cindy and Sharon are busy, is we have an
10:59:04 affordable housing project going forward right now.
10:59:06 So, for example, today, the city does not have the
10:59:11 capacity to waive impact fees or sewer connection fees
10:59:16 like zoning fees, and our project is moving forward.
10:59:21 And if that's the intent of the city and the council,
10:59:25 I would hope -- and I know Cindy would be, I assume,
10:59:29 open to the suggestion, that on this particular
10:59:32 project as a model, I mean, we know what those costs
10:59:36 are, and to the extent that there is relief to some of
10:59:42 those regular you will tore options or fees, the
10:59:45 effect of it is it will lower the unit prices for
10:59:49 affordable housing purchases, so you qualify more
10:59:53 people.
10:59:53 So I just hope I have the opportunity with our project
10:59:56 not to wait the 90 days or six months for the city to
11:00:01 formulate policy, that we could work with the
11:00:03 administration and council from this particular

11:00:06 project.
11:00:12 >>> Cindy Miller again.
11:00:13 I do want to point out, and maybe I was being too
11:00:17 general in my comment.
11:00:18 But when it comes to any contract that has not yet
11:00:21 been executed with a not-for-profit or with another
11:00:24 organization, I believe that it's already been
11:00:27 determined the impact fees are an eligible cost for
11:00:30 federal and state funding.
11:00:32 So, therefore, I do not believe that we will need
11:00:35 officials council action to do that funding.
11:00:38 What we may need to do is if there is an amendment to
11:00:41 our plans with the state and federal government, we
11:00:44 may have to come back to you for an amendment to that
11:00:46 plan to authorize that.
11:00:47 But we are not sure from a legal standpoint whether we
11:00:50 need to do that now.
11:00:51 So it is already something I certainly will be talking
11:00:54 with Mr. Rotella about, and any other organizations
11:00:57 with which we have not yet executed agreements.
11:00:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Briefly, first of all, I think
11:01:04 council as a policy direction would encourage to you

11:01:06 work with him to do that as expeditiously as possible.
11:01:09 Secondly, I want to compliment Mr. Rotella and Rev.
11:01:12 Scott for creating this land trust.
11:01:14 What that does is it means the property owner doesn't
11:01:16 have to include the costs of property in their units
11:01:20 which saves them a lot of money.
11:01:22 It's a win-win-win and was very innovative and it's
11:01:25 that kind of innovative thinking we need positive to
11:01:28 move towards. Compliments on your creativity.
11:01:32 And Mr. Rotella's project is green and affordable.
11:01:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Santiago Corrada.
11:01:45 >>> Santiago Corrada, neighborhood services
11:01:48 administrator, item 26 the resolution before you
11:01:52 asking you rescind the order that created the
11:01:54 Department of Community Affairs does not abolish or
11:01:56 eliminate the area of community affairs.
11:01:58 It gives us the opportunity to reestablish that area
11:02:01 as a division, with a division manager, with the focus
11:02:05 that it has had, and that is to investigate complaints
11:02:09 regarding EEOC, fair housing, HUD, and to administer
11:02:13 our human rights ordinance.
11:02:14 That area has reductions like many others.

11:02:18 It was already a small department to begin W.we think
11:02:20 it's a cost effective measure to reorganize that area
11:02:24 of our city and still remain with its main focus, and
11:02:27 that is to protect our citizens.
11:02:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I just wanted people here, I want them
11:02:35 to be clear that it has not been abolished, but
11:02:42 rescind the order as a division and move forward to
11:02:45 implement or investigate fair housing issues, and
11:02:51 ordinance.
11:02:52 Thank you very much.
11:02:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The victim of budget cuts.
11:02:56 Mrs. Mulhern asked for items 41 through 45, to discuss
11:03:01 it as quickly as possible, David.
11:03:04 >>> Dave Parkinson, urban development.
11:03:06 Items 41 through 45 are infrastructure grant
11:03:10 applications.
11:03:10 This is a program that this will be our third year
11:03:13 applying the previous two years we received 460,000 in
11:03:18 one year, 450,000 in the second year, and also the
11:03:26 greenways and trails program.
11:03:29 These items were put on the agenda, the base
11:03:36 commanders subsequently requested that we not submit

11:03:40 numbers 41 and 42 so I ask that you continue to have
11:03:44 this held off the agenda and move items 43 through 45.
11:03:49 >> So basically these are off-site improvements
11:03:52 associated with MacDill that the state is willing
11:03:54 to fund.
11:03:56 >>> Correct.
11:03:56 >> To be a good neighbor and a good friend.
11:04:02 >>> Correct.
11:04:03 >>MARY MULHERN: My question was just the city is
11:04:06 applying for these grants because it's not on base
11:04:10 property, it's outside of the base.
11:04:14 >>> The city is the grant recipient.
11:04:16 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
11:04:17 But it's at the -- my question is, what specifically
11:04:22 is at the Bayshore Boulevard gate?
11:04:26 What part of our city property?
11:04:30 >>> Everything immediately outside of the gate which
11:04:31 is all the driveway entrance, the secure area where
11:04:36 people have to turn around, have their vehicles
11:04:38 checked.
11:04:39 Everything out of the base gate, and the gate area.
11:04:41 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.

11:04:49 Of those three that you are asking for approval today
11:04:53 for the gate.
11:04:54 I'm just wondering if these funds -- that seems like
11:04:59 it's a benefit really to the base, not really to the
11:05:02 people in the city.
11:05:04 >>> If that's a mutual benefit, as far as
11:05:06 transportation improvements go, the potential backups,
11:05:09 and, but all of their gates, Bayshore in particular.
11:05:18 So for all of those people who happen to live in that
11:05:21 very southern part of town -- it's a benefit.
11:05:26 >>MARY MULHERN: It's going to be a benefit for people
11:05:29 who live along Bayshore, MacDill, or just --
11:05:33 people on Bayshore, or around that Bayshore --
11:05:39 >>> Interbay.
11:05:41 >>MARY MULHERN: All of that.
11:05:42 Okay.
11:05:42 Thanks.
11:05:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Other questions by council members?
11:05:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: You said some of this is for the
11:05:47 greenway that they have donated to the city to go
11:05:49 for -- they paid to move their fence back so we could
11:05:52 have a greenway.

11:05:54 >>> Actually the previous year's grants, the two
11:05:56 previous year's grants were for land acquisition which
11:05:59 included some greenway area.
11:06:02 Previous years.
11:06:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:06:06 Is there anyone in the public that would like to
11:06:08 request a reconsideration on legislative matters?
11:06:10 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Suite 3700 Bank of America Plaza.
11:06:24 This morning I'm representing Eric Ellerbee and John
11:06:30 ring who are in the audience this morning if you all
11:06:32 would raise your hands, please.
11:06:33 This has to do with action the council took last week
11:06:36 regarding 1720 east 15th Avenue, also known as the
11:06:40 Ponaio house in Ybor City.
11:06:45 There were three RFP processes on this property.
11:06:49 And I will summarize this for you briefly.
11:06:52 And I will ask that you reconsider your decision last
11:06:56 week and recommend to the mayor that Mr. Ellerbee and
11:07:02 Mr. Ring be awarded the contract for this property.
11:07:05 My reasons for this are several fold.
11:07:08 The real estate department makes their recommendation
11:07:10 to you.

11:07:11 You consider the recommendation, and then under the
11:07:14 charter you make a further recommendation to the
11:07:18 mayor.
11:07:19 You have the prerogative to take or leave the real
11:07:22 estate department's recommendation, and likewise the
11:07:25 mayor has the prerogative to take or leave your
11:07:28 recommendation.
11:07:29 I'm asking you to consider the Ellerbee proposal
11:07:32 because it's the best proposal in all three of the RFP
11:07:37 processes.
11:07:38 In the first process that started in March, all three
11:07:42 bids were rejected for reasons that are not germane
11:07:44 this morning.
11:07:46 In the second RFP process the Ellerbee proposal came
11:07:51 in second, but Mr. Kolack's proposal came in first.
11:08:00 The first proposal was disqualified.
11:08:03 My opinion is that at that time you should have
11:08:07 awarded the second proposal, Mr. Ellerbee's proposal,
11:08:11 and recommended that to the mayor.
11:08:14 The third proposal in the second RFP was Mr. Spang who
11:08:21 had a far distant 86 points.
11:08:23 What happened was when you disavowed the second RFP,

11:08:30 Mr. Spank then learned Mr. Ellerbee's bid.
11:08:37 You then embarked on a third RFP.
11:08:39 Now Mr. Ellerbee's bid is known by Mr. Spang and for
11:08:44 some reason I have not been able to determine Mr.
11:08:49 Spang now becomes first although Mr. Ellerbee never
11:08:55 changed his offer price and never changed his escrow
11:08:58 deposit.
11:08:59 I am asking you to basically go back to the second RFP
11:09:03 and do what is totally fair to everyone.
11:09:07 The first gentleman was clearly disqualified.
11:09:10 The second gentleman, Mr. Spang and Mr -- Mr.
11:09:15 Ellerbee, excuse me, met the requirements.
11:09:17 He beat Mr. Spang.
11:09:22 I have nothing further to add.
11:09:23 I am available for any questions you may have.
11:09:25 Mr. Ellerbee is here.
11:09:27 Mr. Ring is here.
11:09:28 I think the public is served.
11:09:29 I think the process is served.
11:09:31 And I think it's totally fair to recommend to the
11:09:33 mayor that Mr. Ellerbee be awarded his property
11:09:37 through a contract.

11:09:38 He has spoken to century bank, Jose Rivero.
11:09:47 I stand ready as legal counsel to get the job done.
11:09:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't know if we have the power
11:09:56 to do what you just said.
11:09:58 I think the contract presented no matter what form or
11:10:01 this contract or other contract and we said no.
11:10:04 I don't know if I as a council member have the right
11:10:06 to renegotiate, and that's in essence what this is,
11:10:10 and say this is fraud but this is the one that I want.
11:10:13 I think that's an administrative process.
11:10:21 Although I disagreed with the add, I didn't see any
11:10:25 high dives on the board, 9.2, .7, that kind of
11:10:29 stuff.
11:10:29 I always feel when you put something out for bid,
11:10:32 highest price wins.
11:10:34 If you have the money, you buy the property.
11:10:41 My feeling has not changed.
11:10:42 I see nothing wrong with the rebidding of this
11:10:44 property.
11:10:45 Both individuals know what it is.
11:10:49 Most of us have seen that house.
11:10:50 I have seen that house for 60 years.

11:10:53 It's a gorgeous building.
11:10:56 It sits on about two and a half lots.
11:10:59 The only thing missing is the gate to the property.
11:11:12 The gate on the back you can open it up.
11:11:15 The one in the front you can hit with a semi and it
11:11:19 won't move.
11:11:20 I went and inspected the house.
11:11:22 Yes, the air conditioning is missing but due diligence
11:11:24 always tells me don't put the air conditioning, don't
11:11:27 put the stove, don't put the refrigerator no matter
11:11:31 what part of the city you are in.
11:11:32 And something that's not there cannot be missing.
11:11:35 So what I am saying is the process has to change.
11:11:37 We have to get a little sharper in doing business.
11:11:40 And I like the proposal.
11:11:43 But I don't think I have the right to do that proposal
11:11:47 and make a change when I did not put out the RFP.
11:11:52 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
11:11:53 You're correct, the only items you had before you last
11:11:56 week was the bid submitted to you by the
11:11:57 administration and your choices were Aye or Nay.
11:12:01 If you want to reconsider this you can reconsider and

11:12:05 then vote in favor of the bid you turned down last
11:12:07 week. The other bid was not on the table.
11:12:08 You are not given the information to know whether you
11:12:10 prefer that bid so the only thing you had before you
11:12:12 was the bid that was submitted and you voted to turn
11:12:14 that down.
11:12:18 >>MARY MULHERN: I had a question last week that I
11:12:20 don't feel like was answered, and we all of us
11:12:23 expressed the need to know why that second bidding
11:12:28 process, why Mr. Ellerbee was not awarded that.
11:12:33 And Ms. Miller, who should be here, I think, right
11:12:38 now, if we can get her to come, said that there were
11:12:44 problems with the RFP.
11:12:46 But we never heard what those problems were.
11:12:49 She said, I think, that Mr. Ellerbee had some problems
11:12:52 with the way it was written.
11:12:54 That was never explained.
11:12:57 And I think that what I would like us to do is hear
11:13:01 why that bid, that second process, was thrown out when
11:13:06 there was that second bid that was higher.
11:13:11 Because we did not hear that.
11:13:12 And then I would like to -- I know we were told we

11:13:18 could just do an up or down vote, but I think we could
11:13:21 go further today, at least, in recommending to the
11:13:24 administration that we would like to recommend that
11:13:29 they go back to that second bid, or reconsider it.
11:13:40 >> Second.
11:13:40 >>MARY MULHERN: I make that a motion, that we
11:13:43 reconsider the second RFP process and the high bid
11:13:46 after the first bid was thrown out, be awarded to Mr.
11:13:50 Ellerbee.
11:13:51 And also we need to hear why that didn't happen in the
11:13:53 first place.
11:13:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I totally agree with that motion.
11:14:00 My big concern is that house is lovely, has remained
11:14:04 empty and we need to get somebody in there.
11:14:06 So I would like to hear back in two weeks, and -- I
11:14:11 don't know if they can come back next week, because
11:14:13 this is something that has been sort of under
11:14:15 discussion.
11:14:15 And if that's not possible, if they could tell us how
11:14:18 to get this thing off the dime and do another bidder.
11:14:21 We just don't want the house to continue to remain
11:14:24 empty.

11:14:24 We want the process to be fair and expeditious.
11:14:28 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I think I was the maker of the
11:14:29 motion last week to deny the recommendation from Ms.
11:14:33 Miller.
11:14:34 Can I reconsider my motion and bring it back before
11:14:37 the table and make another recommendation?
11:14:52 >>> Martin: Mrs. Mulhern raised the question of why
11:14:54 the second bid was not accepted.
11:14:56 That had to do with a clarification that the legal
11:15:01 department recommended through real estate.
11:15:07 On that second bid, a party who made a lower bid
11:15:12 turned in an earnest money deposit with the bid.
11:15:17 The higher bid did not.
11:15:18 It wasn't clear from the RFP that an earnest money
11:15:24 deposit had to be turned in at the time that you
11:15:27 submitted your bid.
11:15:29 The legal department felt in order to not have the
11:15:33 second bidder say, hey, the first bidder, although he
11:15:36 has a higher price, did not comply with the bid
11:15:39 requirements, he didn't have an earnest money deposit,
11:15:43 said let's bid it again and clarify that point.
11:15:46 The third bid, the two bids were exactly the same.

11:15:50 As far as the money amounts.
11:15:52 And the third bid, $250,000.
11:15:58 >>MARY MULHERN: I think you're talking about the third
11:16:00 RFP process.
11:16:02 We are questioning why the second RFP process --
11:16:06 >>> That's what I explained.
11:16:06 >>MARY MULHERN: But the second and third bids weren't
11:16:09 the same.
11:16:11 >>> The third RFP process, the bids were the same.
11:16:14 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
11:16:16 >>> The bid at the second RFP process, one was higher
11:16:19 but did not include an earnest money deposit.
11:16:21 One was lower but included an earnest money deposit.
11:16:25 >> So are you saying that Mr. Ellerbee's bid did not
11:16:27 have earnest money?
11:16:30 Or the first one?
11:16:32 >>> I don't recall the names.
11:16:33 The higher bid did not have an earnest money deposit.
11:16:39 >> If highest bid?
11:16:40 And that's why that was thrown out?
11:16:42 >>> We recommended that those bids not be considered,
11:16:46 and the process be put out again with a clarification

11:16:53 that the bid required earnest money deposit at the
11:16:55 time of proposal.
11:16:57 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
11:16:58 Well, I still have a problem with it for the fact that
11:17:00 what Mr. Miranda said was that then the bids became
11:17:06 public, and the other bidder was able to raise his
11:17:09 bid.
11:17:11 I think there are a lot of problems --
11:17:14 >>> I don't understand.
11:17:14 The third process, the bids were below that.
11:17:17 Nobody made a higher bid.
11:17:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Not true.
11:17:27 >> Based on my recollection the second process, the
11:17:35 higher bid was higher than the two bids that came in
11:17:39 in the third process.
11:17:41 My recollection.
11:17:41 >>MARY MULHERN: All right.
11:17:44 If you had asked for earnest money in the first place,
11:17:46 which you didn't, apparently, right?
11:17:51 >>> In the second RFP, that an earnest money deposit
11:17:55 was required at the time the proposal came in
11:18:04 At the time they made the proposal and the other party

11:18:07 that had a higher bid did not.
11:18:11 >>MARY MULHERN: Are you including that first bid that
11:18:14 disappeared or just the second?
11:18:16 >>> The second bid.
11:18:17 >> So Mr. Ellerbee did not have earnest money in his
11:18:21 bid?
11:18:21 Is that what you are telling me?
11:18:23 >>> I'm not sure which party it was.
11:18:25 We didn't look at the numbers.
11:18:26 We looked at the situation of a party coming in with a
11:18:30 high bid that did not have an earn of the money
11:18:32 deposit.
11:18:33 A lower bid that did have a higher -- a lower bid that
11:18:38 did have an earnest money deposit at the time of
11:18:40 proposal.
11:18:41 >> This is after you threw out the first one for other
11:18:43 reasons?
11:18:44 >>> the legal department had no part in throwing out
11:18:47 the first one.
11:18:48 >> He dropped out.
11:18:50 >>> We don't know.
11:18:51 I can only address the second bidding process.

11:18:53 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Madam Chairman, we could spend
11:18:58 time as we did on the CRA this morning, and we waste
11:19:02 too much time, too many bites of the apple.
11:19:06 I want to make a motion to reconsider my motion at the
11:19:08 last meeting.
11:19:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, there's a motion on the
11:19:14 floor and I believe the motion that would be really in
11:19:16 order would be the motion to reconsider.
11:19:19 And it has to be by somebody on the prevailing side.
11:19:22 The first step would be whether you wish to
11:19:24 reconsider.
11:19:24 Then could you decide what action.
11:19:26 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Reconsider our last action at the
11:19:29 last meeting by not recommending Ms. Miller --
11:19:32 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The motion is to reconsider the
11:19:34 issue.
11:19:35 >>GWEN MILLER: We did that already.
11:19:37 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Excuse me, yes.
11:19:39 >>GWEN MILLER: So what is the motion now?
11:19:42 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: To reconsider the vote that we
11:19:43 took at the last meeting, not recommending Mrs.
11:19:45 Miller's recommendation.

11:19:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Didn't we do that?
11:19:52 We did that motion last week.
11:19:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The motion now is to reconsider --
11:19:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Did we get a second on that?
11:20:01 >>MARY MULHERN: I don't understand.
11:20:02 We voted against --
11:20:05 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Ms. Miller's recommendation.
11:20:07 >>MARY MULHERN: You want to consider voting for her
11:20:11 recommendation?
11:20:12 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: No.
11:20:12 Put a new recommendation forward.
11:20:16 >>SAL TERRITO: I don't think that's an option.
11:20:17 The only thing you had before you last week was Ms.
11:20:20 Miller's recommendation or the administration's
11:20:22 recommendation.
11:20:22 The only -- the only thing to consider is the fact you
11:20:26 voted that down and if you want to reconsider the only
11:20:29 option you have is to vote that recommendation up, not
11:20:32 to come back in seven --
11:20:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's part of the problem here.
11:20:39 At a some point, somebody has to make a decision
11:20:44 ultimately because you can go back and forth on this

11:20:46 whole issue on this.
11:20:47 So there has to be, you know, from everything about
11:20:56 government, at the end of the day somebody has a final
11:20:58 say so.
11:20:59 Even if it's a veto you can override a veto
11:21:03 legislative.
11:21:03 So that is not here in your charter.
11:21:05 Now I have asked to see that because to me that's kind
11:21:09 of strange.
11:21:10 I need to see that in the charter that this council
11:21:13 cannot recommend to the mayor another option.
11:21:15 And what I am being told is by our legal council that
11:21:20 we can only vote it up or down.
11:21:23 I need to see that in writing.
11:21:24 I have not seen that.
11:21:25 And I'm saying that we should have the option, at
11:21:29 least to recommend to the mayor, or to the
11:21:31 administration, you know --
11:21:37 >> Middle ground.
11:21:38 And I make that a motion.
11:21:43 >>> Not precluded from making a recommendation. The
11:21:45 only item you had before you was an up or down vote.

11:21:48 Once you made your decision there's nothing to
11:21:50 preclude you from saying we would like to see
11:21:52 something come back more in line with what we are
11:21:54 voting on.
11:21:55 It's not saying you can't do that.
11:21:57 It's saying all you can vote on, though, is what you
11:21:59 had before you.
11:21:59 You can recommend anything you please.
11:22:02 And the administration can take that into
11:22:06 consideration to bring back or not bring back what
11:22:08 they are proposing.
11:22:08 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to move on.
11:22:10 What's your motion, Ms. Mulhern?
11:22:13 >>MARY MULHERN: My motion was to recommend to the
11:22:15 administration that they go back to the second RFP
11:22:18 process and award the bid to the highest bidder that
11:22:25 was left of the two bidders, Mr. Ellerbee.
11:22:29 We don't everyone have to say who it was apparently.
11:22:32 And I also wanted to understand the circumstances.
11:22:36 I'm not sure that I still do.
11:22:39 It looks like Mr. Grandoff can enlighten us.
11:22:43 I would like to recommend that the administration go

11:22:47 back to the second bid and award the second bidder,
11:22:53 who is left, the high bid.
11:22:55 >>SAL TERRITO: I think you can make the
11:22:58 recommendation.
11:22:58 I don't think it has any force, any authority.
11:23:00 You can say that would you like to do that but I think
11:23:03 what's going to end up happening is the administration
11:23:05 is going to come back and review what they have and
11:23:07 come up with a new recommendation for you, and then
11:23:09 you decide at that particular point if that's what you
11:23:11 are looking for.
11:23:12 There's nothing to say that you prefer something.
11:23:14 But the problem you are having here, and I am
11:23:16 trying-oh I am not trying to prevent you from doing
11:23:18 something -- you don't have the other recommendation
11:23:20 before you.
11:23:21 You have never seen the other information.
11:23:23 You may not decide that that's the better bid after
11:23:26 you have seen it.
11:23:26 All you had before you last week was the first bid.
11:23:29 You didn't have the second bid.
11:23:31 What Mr. Martin is trying to say to you is the legal

11:23:35 department concluded the second bid had a fault in it
11:23:37 that they were trying to correct.
11:23:39 Sometimes you get in these situations, the better
11:23:41 thing to do is throw them out because no matter what
11:23:44 you do, if you grab the first one, the second one is
11:23:46 going to make an argument it wasn't proper.
11:23:49 If you get to the second one the first will say I came
11:23:51 in first.
11:23:52 So I think what happened in the second bid, the one
11:23:54 that you are concerned with, is that there was
11:23:55 something in there that was ambiguous, and the only
11:23:58 way to clarify it fairly to everyone was to come back
11:24:01 and redo the bid.
11:24:02 That was what they were trying to fix because there
11:24:05 was a fault in the second bid.
11:24:06 Not because someone was better or not better.
11:24:09 Not because the bid was good or bad.
11:24:10 There was a fault that caused a legal concern.
11:24:14 And that's why it came back a third time.
11:24:16 Anytime you throw a bid out, you are going to have the
11:24:19 same situation.
11:24:20 Now the other bidders know what the other person bid.

11:24:22 And you have a whole new situation.
11:24:25 That happens anytime that it gets thereon thrown out.
11:24:28 It's just the nature of having a fault in the bidding
11:24:30 process at some point.
11:24:31 >>MARY MULHERN: It injuries appears unfair to me.
11:24:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott and Mr. Dingfelder, we
11:24:37 are going to vote.
11:24:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The motion dies for lack of second so
11:24:43 there's no motion on the floor.
11:24:44 I think the issue for me is you have a second bid.
11:24:47 No matter what the issue, no matter what legal
11:24:52 recommended.
11:24:53 The issue is you have a second bid.
11:24:56 You have a number two and number 3 that came in
11:24:58 substantially, and number two was the highest bidder
11:25:04 at this point.
11:25:05 Number one has been disqualified.
11:25:07 Number two came in with the highest financial monetary
11:25:10 bid, and points.
11:25:11 Well, once you threw that out, then Mr. Spang, I think
11:25:18 it is, adjusted his bid and also scored more points.
11:25:21 I don't know how but that's what happened.

11:25:23 Okay.
11:25:24 Now, I think council can vote up or down, the
11:25:31 recommendation of the administration, right?
11:25:33 And so today council, they had an option.
11:25:37 They can say, mayor or administration, we would like
11:25:40 for you to consider the Ellerbee awarding them the
11:25:43 bid.
11:25:46 And I am going to make that as a motion.
11:25:50 >>MARY MULHERN: That was my motion.
11:25:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Your motion was going back to the
11:25:55 second bid and I don't think we can do that legally.
11:25:57 >> Second.
11:25:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
11:26:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
11:26:03 Councilman Scott, several times every meeting you talk
11:26:06 about process.
11:26:08 And I think we are messing up a process here.
11:26:13 For one thing, this motion is the second bite at the
11:26:18 apple.
11:26:19 How much time did we spend on this last week?
11:26:21 Probably an hour.
11:26:23 You know, wrestling with this issue.

11:26:27 We went through all the legal ramifications and I
11:26:30 think we came up with a fair solution which is to
11:26:33 throw it back in the administration's court and let
11:26:35 the administration do what they are paid to do, which
11:26:37 is to sort these things out, and come back to us.
11:26:41 They want to sell the house as much or more than we
11:26:43 do.
11:26:44 I have faith in the administration that they would,
11:26:46 given a little bit of time they would sort this out
11:26:49 and come back to us, and really the intent of council
11:26:51 last week, and the vote of council last week, was to
11:26:54 say, get rid of all the RFP nonsense, let's just talk
11:26:58 about money.
11:26:59 That was our vote last week.
11:27:02 Let's just talk about money.
11:27:03 And I think our direction to the administration, I
11:27:06 think there was a little bit of direction to the
11:27:07 administration on the motion, and I am getting a yes
11:27:11 from the clerk, was to say exactly that, throw out the
11:27:15 bid, start over and just focus on the high price.
11:27:18 That's why I don't want to support this.
11:27:19 I think we are intruding a little bit in the

11:27:22 administration by getting into telling them which bid
11:27:25 to take and which not to take and I know they do that
11:27:28 at the county commission because I used to be over
11:27:30 there in a different capacity but I don't think that's
11:27:33 our role and our place and I don't think this is
11:27:35 important enough to be wasting more time on it.
11:27:38 We did it last week.
11:27:39 We put to the bed.
11:27:40 There's a motion on the floor to reopen and revisit
11:27:42 all this again, as a reconsideration.
11:27:44 And I think we should reject it and just leave it
11:27:47 where we were last week.
11:27:48 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second other
11:27:49 floor.
11:27:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What is the motion?
11:27:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Requesting the administration, to
11:27:57 award the bid to Ellerbee.
11:28:01 Again that's just a recommendation.
11:28:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am not opposed to a
11:28:05 recommendation.
11:28:06 The administration can do as they see fit and they are
11:28:10 likely going to rebid the whole thing.

11:28:12 >>GWEN MILLER: It's a recommendation.
11:28:13 >>MARY MULHERN: I second because you think I made that
11:28:16 same motion a few minutes ago.
11:28:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just so you are clear, council, this
11:28:20 is not a motion to reconsider.
11:28:23 The action of council last week stands as an
11:28:25 additional recommendation to the administration.
11:28:28 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:28:33 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder and
11:28:37 Saul-Sena voting no.
11:28:40 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to our audience portion.
11:28:44 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Thank you for your time this morning.
11:28:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone in the public like to
11:28:48 speak on any item not set for a public hearing?
11:28:50 You may speak now.
11:28:52 >> Pardon my tardiness.
11:28:53 I also have a request as a member of the public.
11:28:57 I'm asking that the board would reconsider the mayor's
11:29:03 appointment of attorney max Scriven.
11:29:14 I am a resident in public housing, Laura bell Harris,
11:29:18 1515 best union street, number 720, Tampa, Florida
11:29:23 33607.

11:29:27 Now, I understand that the administration is in no way
11:29:31 obligated to maintain Mr. White on the Tampa housing
11:29:39 board of commission.
11:29:40 However, I am wondering, now that Commissioner White
11:29:44 is no longer on the board, who would be the
11:29:52 spokesperson for the residents in public housing?
11:29:54 A great portion of the City of Tampa consists of
11:29:59 residents of public housing.
11:30:01 A great portion of the City of Tampa's economy is
11:30:05 generated as residents of public housing.
11:30:14 On a recent newspaper particle article it wags written
11:30:18 that an outspoken housing board member was not
11:30:21 reappointed.
11:30:22 I don't know who deemed Mr. Gerald white outspoken.
11:30:28 I don't know what he said that would cause someone to
11:30:31 deem him as outspoken.
11:30:34 I do know that he speaks very well in the good
11:30:38 interest of the residents of public housing.
11:30:42 Residents of public housing are like the cattle that
11:30:51 used on the rawhide show and the wagon train shows
11:30:57 where the ram rod and the trail boss would get into
11:31:00 different modes of thinking, and the cattle were just

11:31:05 at their mercy.
11:31:06 However, it was the cattle that was generating the
11:31:10 funding.
11:31:11 It was the cattle that were paying the trail boss and
11:31:15 the ram rod's salary.
11:31:16 And that is what is happening in public housing.
11:31:23 So now that the voice of Gerald white has been
11:31:26 silenced we have a resident commissioner who is not
11:31:29 accountable to anyone that I know of.
11:31:32 I don't know what the mayor's mandate is, what the
11:31:35 mayor's criteria is for selecting board members,
11:31:40 unless you must be able to go along to get along.
11:31:45 Because what is apparent to me is Mr. Gerald white was
11:31:50 too verbal and too vocal in the good interest of the
11:31:55 residents.
11:31:56 Therefore, he was a thorn in the flesh of the other
11:32:02 commissioners.
11:32:03 Now, the mayor admitted that she knows that attorney
11:32:08 Scriven has no public housing knowledge.
11:32:14 The chairperson of the Tampa housing authority board
11:32:17 of commissioners granted me a meeting, which I
11:32:21 requested, and this meeting was held on June 15, 2007,

11:32:27 concerning growth infringement of the 964
11:32:31 regulations --
11:32:32 (Bell sounds).
11:32:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Your time is up.
11:32:35 >>> Regard everybody.
11:32:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Your time is up.
11:32:37 Like you said in the beginning the mayor made the
11:32:38 appointment, City Council did not make that
11:32:40 appointment.
11:32:41 You need to speak with the mayor.
11:32:43 And the same question you asked of us, that needs to
11:32:47 be given to her.
11:32:48 But we can't do anything about it.
11:32:50 Bee did not make that.
11:32:52 >>> May I request this board to request a hearing with
11:32:54 the mayor?
11:32:56 >>GWEN MILLER: We cannot do it on your behalf.
11:32:58 You have the right to call her office and make an
11:33:00 appointment and talk to her.
11:33:02 >>> All right.
11:33:07 9 do you have a statement to make, Mr. Dingfelder?
11:33:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have known Gerald white for a

11:33:13 long time and from I heard and read he's done a great
11:33:16 job on the housing authority.
11:33:17 It's a shame he wasn't reappointed.
11:33:19 With that said as Madam Chair indicated and you
11:33:22 indicated, if the mayor's appointment all we do is
11:33:24 ratify it.
11:33:25 And -- and I will say this very carefully -- if she
11:33:30 puts forth somebody who is not quality, somebody that
11:33:33 I didn't believe in, okay, then I would vote against
11:33:36 that.
11:33:37 And I looked at that very carefully last week.
11:33:39 Now here's what I'll say about lance.
11:33:44 I went to law school with him 20 years ago.
11:33:48 I have known he and his wife for 20 years.
11:33:51 They are quality people.
11:33:52 Lance is a great, smart attorney and also cares about
11:33:59 people.
11:33:59 That's why he got my vote last week in terms of
11:34:01 ratifying.
11:34:02 I'm confident, and Mr. Scriven will take the same
11:34:08 amount of care as Mr. White and do a good job on the
11:34:11 housing authority.

11:34:12 If it doesn't turn out that way, when his name comes
11:34:16 back to us for repayment you tell us that and we'll
11:34:19 consider that a couple years from now.
11:34:21 But I'm confident in him and his abilities.
11:34:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:34:24 If you still need a question answered please call the
11:34:26 mayor's office and make an appointment.
11:34:28 I think she can explain it better than we can.
11:34:30 Thank you for coming.
11:34:32 Next.
11:34:38 >>> Blair Curlan, a scheduling of a public hearing for
11:34:44 file number Z-07-38, which is S an appeal of an F-1
11:34:49 determination.
11:34:50 We are requesting that it be scheduled for the October
11:34:52 11th evening hearing instead of the September
11:34:56 6th as stated in the agenda.
11:34:59 >>GWEN MILLER: October, what date?
11:35:06 October what?
11:35:07 >> 11th.
11:35:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Is that a motion?
11:35:11 >> We'll take care of it when we get to it.
11:35:14 >>GWEN MILLER: October 11.

11:35:16 Thank you.
11:35:16 Next.
11:35:20 >> My name is Janice Williams, I'm president of the
11:35:22 old West Tampa neighborhood association crime watch,
11:35:26 1902 west Conrad street.
11:35:28 I'm really here, this might not be the right venue.
11:35:31 I need clarification on the decision that you made on
11:35:35 item 5.
11:35:36 And on March 22nd, there were two rezoning
11:35:41 requests that came before City Council.
11:35:43 The first was continued for this evening, the 26th
11:35:46 of July, and the other one was continued for the
11:35:49 9th of August.
11:35:50 I have not received any correspondence from the
11:35:54 petitioner.
11:35:55 So at the March 22nd hearing, councilwoman
11:36:03 Saul-Sena verified that the petitioner should meet
11:36:06 with the overlay to review whatever it was the
11:36:12 petitioner was going to present before you, and that
11:36:14 we were to do that before we came to the meeting on
11:36:17 the 26th of July.
11:36:19 So without getting into the specifics of July

11:36:23 26th, are we in a gray area now with your decision
11:36:27 on item number 5?
11:36:30 Is this person still obligated to have a meeting with
11:36:37 the overlay to discuss the plans?
11:36:40 Because I don't have anything.
11:36:41 I won't have anything for you tonight.
11:36:43 I won't be able to tell you whether or not the
11:36:46 neighborhood supports it or not.
11:36:47 I mean, with all due respect, is this how you want it
11:36:51 to be?
11:36:52 Because this person has had so much.
11:36:54 And maybe this petitioner was waiting to see what
11:36:56 decision you were going to make today.
11:37:00 But I feel it's disrespectful.
11:37:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: This is related to a public hearing
11:37:11 scheduled for tonight?
11:37:16 >>> It has been continued and apparently continue even
11:37:18 prior to March 27.
11:37:19 >> But it is scheduled to be heard tonight?
11:37:21 >>> It is scheduled to be heard tonight.
11:37:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And my suggestion, council, would be
11:37:29 if this is an shall you that you don't consider

11:37:31 outside of the public hearing, if it has bearing, then
11:37:33 perhaps it should be raised tonight.
11:37:35 That would be the appropriate time to do that.
11:37:37 Mr. Territo, would you agree that would be --
11:37:43 >>SAL TERRITO: She wants to know if the actions of
11:37:45 item number 5 and the impact of what you are going to
11:37:47 do tonight, not dealing with tonight's issue.
11:37:51 >>> Right.
11:38:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I can have a few minutes during
11:38:01 the break.
11:38:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby will meet with her and talk
11:38:04 to her.
11:38:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The action we took is to have legal
11:38:08 do something.
11:38:09 They haven't done it yet.
11:38:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby, would you talk with her?
11:38:13 Thank you.
11:38:14 Next.
11:38:25 >>MOSES KNOTT, JR.: I resign at 2902 East Ellicott
11:38:30 three nights a week.
11:38:31 And then I thank God for his grace and his mercy.
11:38:36 That's all I have.

11:38:37 Some people -- I always speak on this grace and mercy
11:38:44 and prayer.
11:38:46 And then I am going to talk about zoning.
11:38:48 But, you know, Dick Greco gave me that big reward one
11:38:52 time.
11:38:53 He came down and took a picture with me but he said
11:38:56 this man here is different.
11:38:58 Black or white.
11:39:01 When I do wrong, I look up and say, Lord, forgive me.
11:39:06 Most people do wrong, they look around like they
11:39:11 didn't do it but they don't know the man upstairs know
11:39:15 before they of do it.
11:39:16 But this morning you all speaking about meeting this
11:39:19 morning.
11:39:20 And I been coming to this podium for years and years
11:39:23 and years.
11:39:24 Like I got a part-time job working out of town loading
11:39:28 shipments and have a 100-mile round trip and I'm a
11:39:31 dead man walking around.
11:39:32 That's hard on me.
11:39:33 But thank God for the job.
11:39:39 Anyway, I am sitting here at the meeting this morning.

11:39:45 And I appreciate -- and you didn't spend a whole lot
11:39:51 of money when you got elected because people love you.
11:39:54 Now why?
11:39:55 Poor people, we need people like you.
11:39:59 Spoke this morning about who had the power.
11:40:02 You all have the power over everything up there.
11:40:04 You know, one time a long time ago man said those
11:40:07 people got a lot of power.
11:40:10 And then get low pay.
11:40:12 But you got a lot of power.
11:40:16 No pay.
11:40:17 But you speak about a lunch break.
11:40:21 You be surprised what the people here, we don't have
11:40:24 no parking.
11:40:27 These people don't done got parking tickets.
11:40:30 I took the Hartline bus down here.
11:40:33 Okay, switch.
11:40:34 Back to this zoning this morning.
11:40:36 Talking about West Tampa this morning.
11:40:37 Article 5.
11:40:39 I sat there, and Reverend Scott, you all don't
11:40:46 understand this zoning.

11:40:49 The zoning made me a poor man.
11:40:54 My house was bad, because I done lost everything I had
11:40:58 in this world and I'm glad I lost it because it
11:41:01 changed me back to the man upstairs.
11:41:02 But this zoning thing, people talk about this morning,
11:41:10 I been to this podium many, many times, people don't
11:41:13 own no land today.
11:41:14 You can business the in a business 20, 30 years,
11:41:18 change the zoning, you're gone.
11:41:20 It always been like that.
11:41:21 But this zoning thing and site plan, you all control
11:41:25 everybody's house, land, everything with zoning in
11:41:29 West Tampa.
11:41:31 I was sitting back there.
11:41:33 Joe Robinson brought up a thing about racism.
11:41:35 I wonder what happened to that lady that wanted to buy
11:41:38 that lot.
11:41:38 Now what I'm talking about.
11:41:42 Came down here five or six years trying to buy that
11:41:46 property, widow lady with children.
11:41:48 What happened?
11:41:49 They sold it to this powerful white man over there,

11:41:52 powerful, and now the people said they can't put
11:41:55 nothing there.
11:41:56 So he come back
11:42:00 >>
11:42:06 >>> I want to clarify on number 53.
11:42:09 I want the evening meeting.
11:42:11 I'm not sure if I made that clear.
11:42:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
11:42:13 Thank you.
11:42:14 Okay.
11:42:18 >>> I'm here --
11:42:26 >>CHAIRMAN: It's not on the agenda.
11:42:27 You have to wait till the end of the meeting.
11:42:30 >> What time will that be?
11:42:31 >>GWEN MILLER: After lunch.
11:42:32 After lunch.
11:42:33 Anyone else want to speak on items that are on the
11:42:35 agenda not set for a public hearing?
11:42:38 Okay.
11:42:38 We go to items for first reading.
11:42:41 Mr. Caetano, would you read item number 8, please?
11:42:44 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: An honest read for first reading,

11:42:52 an ordinance authorizing the installation and
11:42:55 maintenance of encroachment tower overhang with light
11:42:58 fixtures oaf a portion of the public right-of-way
11:43:01 generally located at the intersection of east Harrison
11:43:04 street and north Morgan street in the City of Tampa,
11:43:05 Hillsborough County as more particularly described
11:43:07 herein subject to the certain terms, covenants,
11:43:10 conditions and agreements as more particularly
11:43:12 described herein providing an effective date.
11:43:15 9 we have a motion and second.
11:43:17 (Motion carried).
11:43:19 We now go to our committee reports.
11:43:21 Public safety, Mr. Tom Scott.
11:43:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would move items 9.
11:43:33 >> Second.
11:43:33 (Motion carried).
11:43:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Parks, recreation, Linda Saul-Sena.
11:43:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move resolution 10
11:43:39 through 17.
11:43:40 >> Second.

11:43:40 (Motion carried).
11:43:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Public works, Mr. Charlie Miranda.
11:43:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move 18 through 20.
11:43:52 >> Second.
11:43:52 (Motion carried).
11:43:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move 23 through 26 and -- that's
11:43:59 it.
11:44:00 23 through 26.
11:44:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:44:03 (Motion carried).
11:44:05 Building and zoning, Mr. Joseph Caetano.
11:44:07 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I would like to move items 29
11:44:10 through 37.
11:44:12 >> Second.
11:44:12 (Motion carried).?
11:44:15 >>CHAIRMAN: Transportation, Ms. Mary Mulhern.
11:44:22 >>MARY MULHERN: I move items 38 through 40, and items
11:44:37 43 through 48.
11:44:39 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:44:41 All in favor say Aye.
11:44:42 (Motion carried).

11:44:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think we need to move to strike
11:44:46 41 and 42 from the agenda.
11:44:49 >> Second.
11:44:49 (Motion carried).
11:44:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Public hearings, Mr. Dingfelder.
11:44:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move to set public hearings for
11:44:56 49 through 52, 54 through 57 as stated.
11:45:01 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:45:03 (Motion carried).
11:45:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And on 53 to schedule that for
11:45:08 October 11th in the evening at 6 p.m.
11:45:11 >> Second.
11:45:11 (Motion carried).
11:45:12 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to our public readings,
11:45:18 second readings.
11:45:20 Anyone in the public want to speak on item number 58?
11:45:23 Would you please stand and raise your right hand?
11:45:29 Anybody going to speak?
11:45:30 Okay.

11:45:30 Mr. Smith.
11:45:32 >>DAVID SMITH: David Smith, city attorney.
11:45:35 We are here on the second reading for the ordinance
11:45:37 that we generically refer to as the HPC ordinance and
11:45:41 we sent you this in your backup material but I know
11:45:44 sometimes it doesn't follow you wherever you go so I
11:45:46 have another copy for you.
11:45:57 If I can briefly, walk you through what we are doing.
11:46:02 As you may remember, this was approved in May on first
11:46:05 reading.
11:46:06 And it went to the office of cultural historical and
11:46:08 information programs for review as to its consistency
11:46:12 with the state local government certification
11:46:15 requirement.
11:46:16 What that essentially means is we are a certified
11:46:18 local government.
11:46:19 I restore preservation program as among the best in
11:46:23 the state and as such we are certified to have certain
11:46:27 benefits including the possibility of funding to
11:46:29 support some of our programs.
11:46:31 So it's important that we retain that certification
11:46:33 status.

11:46:35 It was reviewed by the Wes Singletary in that office
11:46:40 and we are in excellent shape.
11:46:41 There were a couple of tweaks, however, some of which
11:46:43 were recommended by him, and I would like to briefly
11:46:48 point those out to you to make sure you have them in
11:46:50 your mind when you vote the second time.
11:46:55 If you look at page 10 what I just passed out for you,
11:46:58 and they are highlighted in yellow.
11:46:59 What this indicates, it adds the words, the mayor,
11:47:02 City Council members, the comment by Mr. Singletary
11:47:04 was, we have the term public officials in there.
11:47:07 He said, please denominate the public officials.
11:47:10 So that's what that change constitutes.
11:47:15 You see these are not terribly material but since this
11:47:17 ordinance is important, at least as has been pointed
11:47:21 out to you.
11:47:21 On page 12 the change was a typo.
11:47:23 We have the word 15, and the number 30.
11:47:27 So we just corrected that so they are both the same.
11:47:30 On page 13, the change there Roe and I'll read it to
11:47:35 you -- if an economic hardship determination has been
11:47:37 made by the HPC the first public hearing before City

11:47:40 Council shall occur no fewer than 30 days after that
11:47:44 determination.
11:47:45 Now the reason that's there is because if any party
11:47:48 wants to appeal they have got 30 days to appeal.
11:47:51 Doesn't make sense for us to take action before they
11:47:53 have an opportunity to decide whether they are going
11:47:55 to appeal or not.
11:47:56 So the action will be in essence held off for 30 days,
11:47:59 or just won't be commenced until 30 days has expired.
11:48:03 If you look at page 19, the insert there at the top,
11:48:07 again highlighted in yellow, says may be entitled to
11:48:10 initiate at the owner's discretion.
11:48:12 Essentially, this is to acknowledge the fact that the
11:48:15 owner does have the ability to seek an economic
11:48:17 hardship if he or she so chooses to do so.
11:48:22 It's somewhat perhaps duplicative but we like to do it
11:48:26 our Is and estimation we cross them.
11:48:30 On page 24 the change there to indicate that in fact
11:48:35 these things are pending appeal.
11:48:38 It says unless timely appealed in accordance with
11:48:41 section 27-.231.
11:48:43 Again you don't move forward with other action if an

11:48:45 appeal has moved file.
11:48:48 I think the last change is on page 39.
11:48:54 And this indicates that if you are going to appeal by
11:48:58 writ of certiorari, we already had that discussion but
11:49:01 we wanted to put the time frame, it shall be filed
11:49:03 within 30 days.
11:49:04 That relates back as you remember to the other time
11:49:07 periods we talk about.
11:49:08 And appeal under this section shall stave off further
11:49:12 designation until the appeal has been resolved.
11:49:15 So you see three our four of those are to protect the
11:49:20 status quo pending appeal.
11:49:22 Those changes are all relatively minor and
11:49:25 certification status is preserved and with that we
11:49:27 recommend you approve this at second reading.
11:49:30 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open the public hearing.
11:49:32 >> Move to open.
11:49:33 >> So moved.
11:49:34 >> Second.
11:49:35 >> Motion and second.
11:49:35 (Motion carried).
11:49:37 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on

11:49:39 item 58?
11:49:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to close.
11:49:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
11:49:44 (Motion carried).
11:49:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move the adoption of the following
11:49:49 ordinance upon second reading, an ordinance of the
11:49:51 city of Tampa, Florida amending City of Tampa code
11:49:54 ordinance chapter 27, article IX, historic
11:49:57 preservation division 3, City of Tampa preservation
11:49:59 board, repealing and replacing section 27-230 in its
11:50:02 entirety, repealing section 27-231 in its entirety,
11:50:07 creating section 27-231.1, powers and duties of the
11:50:12 HPC and HPC staff, creating section 27-231.2.
11:50:19 Proposed additions to the national register of
11:50:23 historic places, creating section 27-231.3.
11:50:28 Local designation of landmarks, landmark sites,
11:50:31 multiple property designations, historic conservation
11:50:35 overlay districts, and historic districts, creating
11:50:38 section 27-231.4, criteria to qualify as a landmark,
11:50:43 landmark site, multiple property designation, historic
11:50:46 conservation, overlay district, or historic district,
11:50:49 creating section 27-231.5.

11:50:54 Landmark site: Creating section 27-231.6.
11:51:00 Economic hardship.
11:51:01 Creating section 27-231.7, emergency actions to
11:51:05 protect buildings, sites, structures, or objects
11:51:10 meeting the criteria for designation.
11:51:13 Crediting section 27-231.8, applications to review
11:51:18 initial designation of contributing status,
11:51:21 redesignation of buildings, structures, or objects R
11:51:24 relocated into or within historic districts or change
11:51:29 in designation, of buildings, structure or objects as
11:51:35 contributing or noncontributing, creating section
11:51:37 27-231.9, notices, creating section 27-231.10, appeal
11:51:45 from decision of the HPC, creating section 27-231.11,
11:51:50 design standards, creating section 27-231.12, work
11:51:55 plan, creating section 27-231.13, property
11:51:59 maintenance, required, creating section 27-231.14,
11:52:03 interstate historic preservation trust fund, amending
11:52:09 section 27-523, definitions, providing for
11:52:12 severability, providing for repeal of all ordinances
11:52:14 in conflict, providing an effective date.
11:52:17 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:52:18 Question on the motion.

11:52:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The good news is what's before us
11:52:22 is an improvement over what we have.
11:52:25 The bad news is it could have been better. The
11:52:27 preservation community devoted hundreds of dollars to
11:52:31 making improvements, and I hope that the next time
11:52:33 this comes around we can use more of their
11:52:38 recommendations and make it tighter.
11:52:39 For that reason I will not be supporting this today.
11:52:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:52:44 Vote and record.
11:52:45 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder, Mulhern
11:52:56 and Saul-Sena voting no.
11:52:59 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open 58 and -- 59 and 60.
11:53:07 >> So moved.
11:53:07 >> Second.
11:53:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public going to
11:53:10 speak on item 59 and 60?
11:53:12 Will you please stand and raise your right hand?
11:53:15 (Oath administered by Clerk).
11:53:21 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I ask that all written communications
11:53:23 relative to today's hearings that have been available
11:53:25 for public inspection in the City Council office be

11:53:27 received and filed into the record.
11:53:31 A motion, please.
11:53:33 >> So moved.
11:53:34 >> Second.
11:53:34 (Motion carried).
11:53:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Very briefly, any ex parte
11:53:38 communications with council relative to any of today's
11:53:42 hearings please disclose the sum and substance prior
11:53:45 to the vote.
11:53:46 Please when you state your name reaffirm that you have
11:53:47 been sworn.
11:53:48 Thank you.
11:53:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:53:50 wants to speak on item at?
11:53:54 >> Move to close.
11:53:54 >> -- item 59.
11:53:56 >> Move to close.
11:53:57 >> Second.
11:53:57 (Motion carried).
11:54:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move an ordinance for adoption at
11:54:05 second reading, an ordinance rezoning property in the
11:54:07 general vicinity of 1103 north 22nd street in the

11:54:10 city of Tampa, Florida and more particularly described
11:54:12 in section 1 from zoning district classifications 1-H
11:54:17 industrial heavy to PD planned development, furniture
11:54:19 store, with access Dairy daycare, restaurant, and
11:54:22 warehousing uses, providing an effective date.
11:54:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
11:54:27 Vote and record.
11:54:34 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Saul-Sena voting no.
11:54:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's a little after the fact, but I
11:54:40 thought we had already voted on second reading.
11:54:42 I had spoken to everybody and their brother about this
11:54:45 trying to make it a better site plan.
11:54:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Public hearing is now open.
11:54:48 Item number 60.
11:54:49 Who is going to speak?
11:54:51 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
11:54:56 It's a bond issue, self weeks ago you did an
11:55:00 inducement resolution for the volunteers of America
11:55:03 and we are simply bringing back the full package.
11:55:06 There is a required public hearing under the federal
11:55:07 statutes.
11:55:08 And this is that public hearing.

11:55:09 And I'm here to answer any questions.
11:55:11 It's a pass-through bond, one that we are doing for
11:55:13 the volunteers of America, the City of Tampa has no
11:55:17 financial liability.
11:55:21 Looking to the volunteers of America to pay these
11:55:23 bonds back.
11:55:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:55:26 wants to speak on item 60?
11:55:28 >> Move to close.
11:55:29 >> Second.
11:55:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Need to pass the resolution.
11:55:32 >> So moved.
11:55:33 >> Second.
11:55:33 (Motion carried).
11:55:37 Item number 61.
11:55:43 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
11:55:45 A similar -- we are doing the same thing here. The
11:55:47 city has no liability.
11:55:49 It's a pass-through bond.
11:55:51 >> Move approval.
11:55:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Does anyone want to speak on item 61?
11:55:55 >> Move to close.

11:55:55 >> Second.
11:55:56 (Motion carried).
11:55:56 >> Need to open 62.
11:56:07 >> So moved.
11:56:08 >> Second.
11:56:08 (Motion carried).
11:56:14 >>> Cindy Miller back again, management services.
11:56:22 It should be made available for affordable housing in
11:56:24 the come months.
11:56:25 It is our first of all to make these available to the
11:56:27 process we have used for not for profits and other
11:56:30 contractors to make them available.
11:56:31 It is a requirement under a new state statute that
11:56:36 there be a public hearing and this type of information
11:56:38 be filed with the state so it is publicly noticed that
11:56:42 these parcels will be made available.
11:56:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.
11:56:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I want to ask, how many properties
11:56:49 are there and what is the process and how does the
11:56:53 city dispose of the property?
11:56:55 Through bids?
11:57:00 >>> What we have done in the past for the previous

11:57:01 parcels is we have made them first go-around we had
11:57:04 about a year ago was with the not-for-profit
11:57:08 organizations proposing, again also in the CRA area,
11:57:14 our first initiation.
11:57:15 It was where it was made available for not for
11:57:18 profits, not constructing houses on those parcels.
11:57:21 For the second phase, we circulated the information,
11:57:26 made it available to both the not for profits as well
11:57:28 as for profit contractors and developers, and waver
11:57:32 not yet awarded those particular parcels.
11:57:34 But they will be, in all cases, there will be a
11:57:37 two-year time period for all entities to build
11:57:40 affordable housing.
11:57:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm very interested in this,
11:57:44 because I just have mixed feelings on the whole
11:57:50 system, in a way.
11:57:52 What is the average cost of the completed houses?
11:57:58 That's taking into consideration -- I have never had
11:58:01 an individual come to the audience and say, I want you
11:58:03 to build an affordable housing for me, because I need
11:58:06 it.
11:58:08 I make eight dollars an hour or nine dollars an hour.

11:58:12 What I have seen is a bunch of developers, and thank
11:58:14 God for them, saying we need more valuable lots.
11:58:17 So my question is where do the two meet?
11:58:19 Are we able to facilitate the individuals that are
11:58:23 less fortunates than us by having something really
11:58:26 affordable built?
11:58:27 Or are we selling these lots and then the houses being
11:58:31 built and the price is 200 that you for the house?
11:58:34 >> Let me answer it in two ways.
11:58:37 First we have a very extensive list as a matter of
11:58:39 fact circulated through the builders association so
11:58:41 that they would be able to know that the lots were
11:58:43 available.
11:58:45 And again these are lots that still come before you.
11:58:47 When it comes to especially not for profit
11:58:51 organizations, they make the commitment, and this will
11:58:53 come before you in a future action, to the commitment
11:58:56 to make the house available for those folks that are
11:58:59 80% of the area median income.
11:59:02 Meaning folks that can afford to make the payments,
11:59:05 but do not have the wherewithal to do the full cost.
11:59:09 We intend to come before you and recommend that those

11:59:12 lots be transferred to the not for profits for free.
11:59:16 So that we can truly make it affordable.
11:59:18 When it comes to contractors or developers, them they
11:59:22 will then have to pay for the lots.
11:59:24 But what we also do for those particular parcels and
11:59:26 for new home buyers, is they are also eligible for the
11:59:29 down payment assistance, come through state and
11:59:32 federal grants, and depending upon their income level
11:59:34 can qualify for up to $50 that you or up to $60,000 in
11:59:38 down payment assistance.
11:59:39 So what we basically look for is to make sure that the
11:59:42 person has enough money to make the payments and pay
11:59:44 the cost of maintenance after the fact so we don't
11:59:48 want to set people up to fail, and to also make sure
11:59:52 they don't make too much money that they exceed the
11:59:55 qualifications for federal or state grant pursuance.
11:59:57 So what I am understanding from talking with the
12:00:00 not-for-profit organizations primarily in East Tampa,
12:00:03 a lot of these homes are about the 140 to 150,000
12:00:08 level.
12:00:09 Even with that there's still the down payment.
12:00:11 >> If it's 140 or 150 I have no problem.

12:00:14 If it's over 200 I do.
12:00:16 Because it becomes not affordable.
12:00:19 >>> We understand.
12:00:19 >>CHAIRMAN: Other questions?
12:00:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close the public hearing.
12:00:23 >> Second.
12:00:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Does anyone in the public want to speak
12:00:25 on item 62?
12:00:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm sorry.
12:00:37 Mows moss I reside at 2902 East Ellicott street.
12:00:41 Now, I thank God this morning I'm here to speak on
12:00:44 this issue.
12:00:49 Years ago, Mayor Freedman come up with a plan.
12:00:53 The city didn't have no plans. That plan was messed
12:00:55 up.
12:00:56 And you know what happened?
12:00:57 Ms. Miller, short black man come up and said we are
12:01:03 going to build some brand new houses, we are going to
12:01:06 put so much money down and all this kind of stuff.
12:01:09 And the police put me out of there, because like I
12:01:14 said, made a statement this morning, every one of them
12:01:16 houses that I seen people move in cost $200.

12:01:19 Now what they say today?
12:01:23 Get paid $20 an hour.
12:01:26 If you brown chicken and cook hamburgers, forget about
12:01:29 one of these houses.
12:01:30 And those are the ones that need the house today.
12:01:32 And laying off thousands of people, police and
12:01:42 everybody, that the city needs to cut back.
12:01:47 Back in the back, they said sell the house to the
12:01:50 highest bidder.
12:01:54 Then get some of these police so they can keep their
12:01:56 jobs, can get paid money that way.
12:01:59 And then I had a problem how the city got this
12:02:02 property.
12:02:02 It came from poor peoples, par houses.
12:02:06 Years ago, you go back to the wood frame house for 35,
12:02:10 $40 thousand.
12:02:12 But those days are gone.
12:02:15 Those days are gone.
12:02:16 And you can't build your own house today.
12:02:19 Now, many people come to me.
12:02:20 I been talking about the city real estate for years
12:02:22 and years and years.

12:02:24 People say, why can't I buy me a lot from the city and
12:02:30 build me a house?
12:02:30 You cannot do it.
12:02:31 This program here, what they do, they use one thing.
12:02:36 That one thing, don't matter, 4, 000,000, but if you
12:02:42 try to go get another bank, it's just $1,000 over our
12:02:51 budget that we would put into this house.
12:02:53 But I would say I just can't see it.
12:02:59 And like I said, if you live in one of these houses
12:03:01 and make $20 an hour or more, and nobody talk about
12:03:05 the tax today.
12:03:10 Forget about it.
12:03:14 Years ago you remember they built some little wood
12:03:17 houses, stucco or something like that, and they raised
12:03:22 hell an went in and tore them down.
12:03:24 You remember that.
12:03:25 And Lewis said this is what affordable housing is.
12:03:30 So they went in.
12:03:32 They said, no, that's not affordable housing.
12:03:36 That's when they got in trouble with HUD.
12:03:39 Now HUD, they turn their back on this city.
12:03:44 Steal a break and all of them went to jail.

12:03:46 But all that racket they had put people in jail.
12:03:53 People should have went to jail.
12:03:59 All them people involved in that deal.
12:04:00 But what I am saying, though, the same thing going to
12:04:05 happen again.
12:04:06 And you all talked about this awhile ago.
12:04:08 Go see the mayor.
12:04:09 They told you all.
12:04:15 Mr. Charlie, thank you for bringing that up.
12:04:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone like to speak on item 62?
12:04:19 Need to close the public hearing.
12:04:20 >> So moved.
12:04:21 >> Second.
12:04:21 (Motion carried).
12:04:22 >> Pleasure of council?
12:04:27 >> Move the resolution.
12:04:28 >> Motion and second.
12:04:29 (Motion carried)ment
12:04:30 Council members, 12:00.
12:04:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to continue for 30 minutes.
12:04:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No.
12:04:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I can make the motion.

12:04:43 That's my motion.
12:04:44 >> Second.
12:04:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Nay.
12:04:48 I have a hearing meeting, a board meeting.
12:04:50 >>GWEN MILLER: We stand in recess until 1:30.
12:04:52 I should have mentioned at 1:30 we have a
12:04:58 comprehensive plan.
12:05:01 We can't do both at the same time.
12:05:05 >> This is first.
12:05:09 (City Council meeting in recess at 12:05 p.m.)

Tampa City Council
Thursday, July 26, 2007
1:30 p.m. session

The following represents an unedited version of
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(Sounding gavel)
13:34:45 >>CHAIRMAN GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called
13:35:23 back to order.
13:35:24 Roll call.
13:35:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
13:35:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
13:35:34 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
13:35:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
13:35:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Before we go back to our agenda we have
13:35:40 some unfinished business we need to take care of from
13:35:43 this morning.
13:35:43 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department, here on item number 63
13:35:46 and 64.
13:35:48 This morning I had stated that I was going to request
13:35:50 those items to be continued.
13:35:53 I inadvertently asked them to be continued to the July
13:35:57 cycle for the chapter 27 amendments.
13:36:01 Staff would like to continue this for three weeks to
13:36:03 allow them the opportunity to brief council on those
13:36:05 two items.
13:36:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: To what date?
13:36:10 >>JULIA COLE: Three weeks would be --
13:36:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 23rd?
13:36:24 So moved.
13:36:25 >> Second.
13:36:26 (Motion carried).
13:36:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Martin, you wanted to say something?
13:36:35 >>> I'll just add that Gwen and John and Linda know
13:36:37 how much work was put into the planning for these two
13:36:40 ordinances that are coming before you through this
13:36:43 Channel District strategic action plan.

13:36:46 It's very important that it get implemented on a basis
13:36:51 that you as a board are comfortable with.
13:36:53 We are almost eight months hundred dollar our original
13:36:55 planning schedule.
13:36:56 So I would just respectfully ask, particularly with
13:36:59 the newer board members who aren't as familiar with
13:37:02 the planning work that went into that, that if you can
13:37:05 make your calendars available for an educational
13:37:09 briefing session, I assure you that Julia, Cathy Coyle
13:37:14 and Mike Chen will Mike it their highest priority to
13:37:16 brief you and make you well prepared for the office
13:37:20 meeting.
13:37:22 We look forward to that.
13:37:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I'm sorry, it was set for 11
13:37:26 a.m.
13:37:27 Do you wish to retain those times for the 23rd?
13:37:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
13:37:32 Item number 65 we need to remove from the agenda.
13:37:35 >> So moved.
13:37:36 >> Second.
13:37:36 (Motion carried).
13:37:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Number 66 need to open.

13:37:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to open.
13:37:42 >> Second.
13:37:42 (Motion carried).
13:37:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to strike and withdraw.
13:37:47 >> Second.
13:37:48 (Motion carried).
13:37:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 67.
13:37:51 Need to open that one.
13:37:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
13:37:55 >> Second.
13:37:55 (Motion carried).
13:37:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Did you want to swear in anybody for
13:38:06 the remaining hearings?
13:38:09 >>GWEN MILLER: If you are to speak on 67 through 70,
13:38:15 please stand and raise your right hand.
13:38:17 (Oath administered by Clerk)
13:38:26 >>> Ron Diehl with preservation, City of Tampa. The
13:38:29 structure before you is at 2001 second Avenue,
13:38:32 contributing structure in an historic district of Ybor
13:38:35 City.
13:38:41 The property subpoena question is second Avenue to the
13:38:44 north.

13:38:44 To the east 21st street.
13:38:46 To the south Adamo.
13:38:52 The structure was 1915, occupied the entire city block
13:38:56 with an interior courtyard.
13:39:08 The courtyard is the open spot in the middle.
13:39:11 It operated as a factory until the 1930s.
13:39:14 After that date, it took on various operations.
13:39:18 After that.
13:39:18 Since then it was converted into condominiums.
13:39:23 Some of the exterior photos.
13:39:30 This is shown prior to renovation.
13:39:32 This is the corner of second Avenue and 20th.
13:39:37 Another exterior photo prior to renovation.
13:39:40 This is on the second along Adamo drive.
13:39:46 This is after renovation.
13:39:51 Looking on second Avenue towards 21st.
13:39:54 Just one more exterior photo, a before and after, you
13:40:00 see the window patterns, and how it's deteriorated.
13:40:04 Then on the bottom after rehabilitation.
13:40:07 Moving to the courtyard.
13:40:10 Upper photo, prior to renovation.
13:40:13 Once again, deteriorated state and how it appears

13:40:17 today.
13:40:17 And they are occupying these units. The last series
13:40:21 of photos.
13:40:22 This is the interior.
13:40:25 You see here how they had the numbers to hold up the
13:40:31 structure, the deterioration, some of the rot here,
13:40:34 and then how it appears today.
13:40:38 >> Wow.
13:40:42 >>> This structure does comply with the secretary of
13:40:45 interior standards for rehabilitation and does meet
13:40:47 all the criteria.
13:40:49 Staff is requesting this be approved.
13:40:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
13:40:52 wants to speak on item 67?
13:40:55 >> Move to close.
13:40:55 >> Second.
13:40:56 (Motion carried).
13:40:56 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move an ordinance for first
13:41:04 reading, an ordinance approving historic preservation
13:41:07 property tax exemption application relative to
13:41:09 restoration, renovation and rehabilitation of certain
13:41:12 property, owned by MPI box factory, LLC, located at

13:41:21 2001 east second Avenue, Tampa, Florida in the Ybor
13:41:24 City historic district based upon certain findings,
13:41:26 providing for notice to the property appraiser of
13:41:29 Hillsborough County, providing for severability,
13:41:30 providing for repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
13:41:34 providing an effective date.
13:41:35 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
13:41:37 Question on the motion.
13:41:38 Mrs. Saul-Sena.
13:41:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just want to say it's really
13:41:41 terrific that somebody has taken one of the historic
13:41:44 industrial buildings in Ybor and made it into such
13:41:47 attractive law offices, a real win-win for the
13:41:50 historic district and proved that Adamo drive can
13:41:55 retain some of its updated historic buildings.
13:41:58 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
13:42:00 (Motion carried)
13:42:01 Item number 68 is a continued public hearing.
13:42:04 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department here on wet zoning
13:42:07 07-03.
13:42:09 I would like to substitute a new ordinance based upon
13:42:11 City Council's motion to conditions, the sale of

13:42:13 alcoholic beverages, to be incidental to retail food,
13:42:18 preparation food establishment not to include a
13:42:20 restaurant.
13:42:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Is that 2707 South MacDill?
13:42:31 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
13:42:32 It's on Bay to Bay.
13:42:34 >>REBECCA KERT: That is the establishment on Bay to
13:42:35 Bay.
13:42:37 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to hear from petitioner or we
13:42:40 can go ahead?
13:42:41 >>REBECCA KERT: You are fine to go ahead unless you
13:42:44 have any questions for the petitioner.
13:42:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone in the public want to speak on
13:42:47 item 68?
13:42:48 >> Move to close.
13:42:49 >> Second.
13:42:49 (Motion carried).
13:42:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Do we have an ordinance?
13:42:53 Mrs. Saul-Sena, would you read that?
13:43:02 >> Move an ordinance making lawful the sale of
13:43:04 beverages containing alcohol of more than 1% by weight
13:43:06 not more than 14% by weight and wines regardless of

13:43:09 alcoholic content beer and wine 2(APS) in sealed
13:43:12 containers for consumption off premises only at or
13:43:15 from that certain lot, plot or tract of land located
13:43:18 at 3415 west Bay to Bay Boulevard, Tampa, Florida, as
13:43:22 more particularly described in section 2 hereof
13:43:24 waiving certain restrictions as to distance based upon
13:43:27 certain findings, providing for repeal of all
13:43:29 ordinances in conflict, providing an effective date.
13:43:32 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
13:43:33 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
13:43:34 Opposed, Nay.
13:43:35 (Motion carried).
13:43:37 Item 9 is a continued public hearing.
13:43:39 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
13:43:40 I just submitted a substitute ordinance. This was
13:43:42 continued to amend the ordinance to conditions, the
13:43:47 sale of alcoholic beverages, and I would like to read
13:43:51 you the language that we submitted, must be only in
13:43:53 conjunction with a catering shop which will also offer
13:43:56 for sale sample food and beverage baskets in
13:44:00 conjunction with a catering business only and the sale
13:44:03 of alcoholic beverages is not allowed in conjunction

13:44:05 with a restaurant or bar/lounge.
13:44:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
13:44:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have a question.
13:44:14 I know it was our intent and yours that this wouldn't
13:44:17 allow a package store per se.
13:44:20 So what if somebody had a catering operation there and
13:44:27 said, oh, I can make a lot of money also as a package
13:44:30 store, you know, and sell whiskey or what have you.
13:44:34 Is there anything in this ordinance to preclude that?
13:44:38 >>REBECCA KERT: They are allowed under this ordinance
13:44:40 to sell on-site for off-premises consumption but it
13:44:47 has to be incidental.
13:44:48 The package sales could not be the primary use.
13:44:50 It has to be incidental to the catering use.
13:44:55 The catering is actually defined in the code.
13:44:59 >> How do we define incidental?
13:45:01 >> You don't have a specific definition in your code
13:45:04 currently.
13:45:04 It's been interpreted to be the same sort of idea of
13:45:10 an accessory use, which actually is defined in chapter
13:45:14 27.
13:45:16 But there is not a percentage number.

13:45:24 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Wouldn't the determination that you
13:45:27 use of incidental when you are talking about a
13:45:31 restaurant which is 51% food, 49% liquor, to be the
13:45:36 same percentage, wouldn't you assume --
13:45:38 >>> It would definitely have to be less than 50%.
13:45:41 I'm not even sure if that threshold would meet but it
13:45:44 would definitely have to be less
13:45:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Then less than 50%.
13:45:50 >>> Yes.
13:45:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Does anyone else want to speak on 69?
13:45:53 >> Move to close.
13:45:54 >> Second.
13:45:54 (Motion carried).
13:45:55 >>MARY MULHERN: I move to adopt the following
13:45:59 ordinance upon second reading, an ordinance making
13:46:03 lawful the sale of beverages regardless of alcoholic
13:46:05 content, beer, wine and liquor, 3 PS, in sealed
13:46:08 containers for consumption off premises only at or
13:46:11 from that certain lot, plot or tract of land located
13:46:14 at 2507 South MacDill Avenue, Tampa, Florida, as more
13:46:17 particularly described in section 2 hereof, waiving
13:46:20 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain

13:46:23 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
13:46:27 conflict, providing an effective date.
13:46:31 >>MARTIN SHELBY: This for the maker of the motion.
13:46:33 Is this a first reading?
13:46:35 >>MARY MULHERN: Oh, I'm sorry.
13:46:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just want to be clear.
13:46:38 Is that your intent?
13:46:39 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
13:46:40 Sorry.
13:46:40 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion say Aye.
13:46:43 Opposed, Nay.
13:46:43 (Motion carried).
13:46:45 Continued public hearing, 70.
13:46:46 >>REBECCA KERT: I just substituted an ordinance.
13:46:49 City Council made a motion to have this come back to
13:46:51 be a one-year conditional.
13:46:53 I have done that.
13:46:54 I do let City Council to know between this week and
13:46:59 last week staff informed me that the residential
13:47:00 property which is the only remaining item that they
13:47:03 needed a waiver from is also located in the
13:47:05 unincorporated area.

13:47:07 Therefore, they are not required to give any waivers.
13:47:10 So before you is a one-year conditional which does not
13:47:13 require any waivers.
13:47:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
13:47:16 wants to speak on item 70?
13:47:23 >>> Richard Davis, I am here this afternoon on behalf
13:47:25 of circle K, and I'll respond to any questions, if
13:47:28 there is any.
13:47:29 Also I would like to have my rebuttal time.
13:47:33 >>GWEN MILLER: We have someone else who wants to
13:47:35 speak.
13:47:38 >>> I have been sworn in.
13:47:39 My in any case is Mike Dillard, the park manager at
13:47:43 Lettuce Lake county park.
13:47:45 I live at lettuce park, 609 east Fletcher Avenue.
13:47:50 I would like to share the following facts with you
13:47:51 folks.
13:47:52 This convenience store is in a corporate park.
13:47:57 Two legal entrances for alcohol sales already existed
13:48:02 when they created an entrance to this particular
13:48:04 store.
13:48:05 Since that time, they have created another entrance.

13:48:10 This entrance goes no further than the end of the
13:48:12 property for this convenience store, so it serves no
13:48:15 purpose other than the convenience store.
13:48:21 They knew the zoning when they built this convenience
13:48:24 store next to the park.
13:48:28 Three other parks are within a mile and a half of this
13:48:32 convenience store.
13:48:33 This site has been denied 2(APS) twice, unanimously
13:48:39 voted by the council here in '92 and '93.
13:48:46 The closest Tampa city resident to this site is 2.8
13:48:52 miles away.
13:48:54 Between that residence and the site, there's one
13:48:58 Publix supermarket, one beverage castle, six
13:49:03 convenience stores, all that sell alcohol -- beer and
13:49:09 wine.
13:49:13 I don't know who drafted the wet zoning policy.
13:49:18 But the only three places they denied having it is
13:49:21 within 1,000 feet of schools, parks, and churches.
13:49:27 What do these three places have in common?
13:49:29 Children.
13:49:36 There is over a million park that use the park
13:49:42 annually, most of them children.

13:49:44 On any given day when school is out there's at least
13:49:47 six daycares in the parks, school trips come to the
13:49:52 park, there are as many as three or four buses in the
13:49:56 park.
13:49:56 When they don't call and let us know they are coming,
13:49:59 there could be as many as ten.
13:50:02 A lot of summer camps use the park, church groups,
13:50:07 YMCA, even Hillsborough County Parks Department brings
13:50:10 children out on day use.
13:50:16 Nobody in these groups are thinking about drunk
13:50:18 drivers.
13:50:20 Because they think the park is a safe place, a safe
13:50:24 haven.
13:50:26 With all these people using the park, our biggest
13:50:29 problem still remains people who are in the park under
13:50:33 the influence of alcohol.
13:50:37 Lettuce Lake park has been there 28 years.
13:50:41 The current owners of this convenience store have only
13:50:44 been there eight months.
13:50:46 These owners knew what the zoning was when they bought
13:50:50 this store.
13:50:51 Again, I ask you on behalf of Hillsborough County and

13:50:54 the Parks and Recreation Department, please deny the
13:50:58 alcohol sales at this site.
13:51:02 Another alcohol store in this area is not needed.
13:51:06 Thank you for your time.
13:51:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
13:51:07 Would anyone else like to speak?
13:51:09 You may rebuttal.
13:51:15 >>> Council members, just a brief rebuttal.
13:51:17 Certainly, respecting the comments made by the Parks
13:51:19 Department representative, it is difficult -- first of
13:51:24 all, if we look back at the waivers required, we have
13:51:27 had legal opinions rendered that no longer are waivers
13:51:30 required for this site.
13:51:32 Putting that aside for a moment, we cannot assume that
13:51:36 the sale of alcoholic beverages at this particular
13:51:38 location will create an untoward effect inside the
13:51:42 park.
13:51:43 You all discussed that in great detail at our last
13:51:45 meeting.
13:51:45 We certainly will abide.
13:51:48 Circle K has a history of abiding by all appropriate
13:51:51 regulations and will do so here.

13:51:53 The issue about construction of the internal road
13:51:56 network is not governed by circle K.
13:51:58 That is in effect governed by your zoning and your
13:52:01 conditions of approval and the applicable development
13:52:04 of regional impact development order.
13:52:06 So, again, council members, we believe that we are now
13:52:09 in conformance with those standards that are contained
13:52:11 in your code.
13:52:13 And we, as you may recall now, did have a condition in
13:52:17 this approval that will bring us back in 12 months to
13:52:21 talk about and show you no adverse impacts on
13:52:23 residential users on the location.
13:52:26 That is in the ordinance that is before you.
13:52:28 And again, respectfully, council members, we are here
13:52:31 to respond top any questions you may have but would
13:52:35 ask that you do approve that at this point.
13:52:38 The conditional approval that is before you.
13:52:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So the two waivers being requested
13:52:48 was the residential and the park use.
13:52:51 And now you advised us that those waivers are
13:52:55 irrelevant.
13:52:57 Were there any other waivers?

13:53:01 >> No.
13:53:02 They are requesting none.
13:53:03 >> What standard are we left with?
13:53:04 What is the issue that we are deciding upon?
13:53:08 >>> The applicant has met the conditions in your code.
13:53:11 They have established that they are not within a
13:53:14 thousand feet that you have specified within the City
13:53:17 of Tampa.
13:53:17 That is a criteria.
13:53:23 If no waivers are being requested, then City Council
13:53:26 doesn't have the discretion to deny the wet zoning.
13:53:32 And that's been consistent well before my time here.
13:53:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So we can't judge it on the public
13:53:38 health, safety, welfare basis?
13:53:40 >>REBECCA KERT: No.
13:53:42 It meets the criteria that you already established for
13:53:45 your public health, safety and welfare.
13:53:47 That's one of the reasons that we are really looking
13:53:49 to bring you back to changes to chapter 3 that really
13:53:52 set your criteria. As the ordinance is set now you
13:53:54 establish what the criteria are and they do not need
13:53:58 any waivers.

13:53:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My question is for Mr. Davis.
13:54:01 That is, when circle K purchased this store, did it
13:54:04 know that it didn't have the zoning to make the sale?
13:54:09 >>> Council members, circle K was aware it did not
13:54:11 have a wet zoning approval within the City of Tampa.
13:54:14 That was why I was retained, to go through the
13:54:17 process.
13:54:18 >> And you were aware of the history it had been
13:54:20 denied previously --
13:54:21 >>> Actually, council member, that material is a
13:54:24 little bit tough to track down.
13:54:25 And I was honestly not aware of that when I began my
13:54:28 representation of circle K on this particular parcel.
13:54:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
13:54:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Questions by council members?
13:54:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question for legal.
13:54:38 Rebecca, how quickly are we getting this improved
13:54:41 liquor license and wet zoning process back?
13:54:45 >>REBECCA KERT: We are in the process for your July
13:54:47 cycle.
13:54:48 It's already in the process.
13:54:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Davis, what are the park

13:54:53 hours?
13:54:54 Do you know?
13:54:56 >>> Council member, I do not.
13:54:58 I would have to defer to the representative from the
13:55:00 Parks Department.
13:55:03 >>> Sir, it's from 8:00 in the morning till 8:00 in
13:55:06 the evening this time of the year.
13:55:07 >> I went by there the other night, and the park was
13:55:10 closed.
13:55:11 It was dark at that time.
13:55:13 So the park is closed.
13:55:14 When is the anticipated majority of the sales going to
13:55:17 take place there?
13:55:19 Have they determined that?
13:55:24 >> When people come in.
13:55:25 >>> Council member, I don't have an answer to that.
13:55:27 I would have to get additional information from circle
13:55:29 K, spread sales over a 24 hour time period.
13:55:36 I don't have that information with me today.
13:55:38 >> How far back into the park from the road is where
13:55:40 the occupants would go to?
13:55:42 In other words, do they go to tables back in the park?

13:55:45 How far off the road is it?
13:55:48 >>> My own experience in the park, I believe a
13:55:53 specific response, I believe off Fletcher into the
13:55:56 park through a gate.
13:55:57 >> Right.
13:55:57 >>> And weave your way around.
13:56:00 I have a couple of run that is have taken me through
13:56:02 the park.
13:56:03 It's a fair distance.
13:56:04 >> So it's quite a distance off of the main road?
13:56:08 >>> I believe that it is, councilman.
13:56:11 >>> Approximately about 200 yards, sir.
13:56:12 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: 200 yards.
13:56:14 Thank you.
13:56:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Other questions by council members?
13:56:17 >> Move to close.
13:56:18 >> Second.
13:56:18 (Motion carried).
13:56:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move an ordinance making lawful the
13:56:24 conditional sale of beverages containing alcohol of
13:56:25 more than 1% by weight and not more than 147% by
13:56:28 weight and wines regardless of alcoholic content, beer

13:56:31 and wine, 2(APS) in sealed containers for consumption
13:56:34 off premises only at or from that certain lot, plot or
13:56:37 tract of land located at 8210 Park Edge Drive,
13:56:48 allowing for repeal of ordinances in conflict,
13:56:51 providing an effective date, and I believe this
13:56:53 ordinance speaks to the one year.
13:56:57 >>> Yes, it does.
13:56:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And that's the reason I support it
13:57:00 and see what happens after a year.
13:57:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm pleased we have this
13:57:04 opportunity to be conditional.
13:57:05 But that does -- we have a year's deadline to rethink
13:57:13 whether we can consider parks, schools, or residences
13:57:16 within the county when they affect the city.
13:57:21 I think this is ridiculous.
13:57:23 I think it's a ridiculous thing that we ignore the
13:57:27 line and don't look at the use next door.
13:57:31 So we all have given ourselves a deadline of a year to
13:57:34 revisit this.
13:57:35 And provide the same respect to county residents that
13:57:38 we would certainly want them to give to city
13:57:40 residents.

13:57:40 We live in our community that touches boundaries all
13:57:44 around and I think that we need to, in a fair and
13:57:48 courteous way, respect their uses and concerns.
13:57:52 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
13:57:53 (Motion carried).
13:57:57 >>> Mr. Davis has requested that second reading about
13:58:00 scheduled for August 23rd, 2007, because he will
13:58:02 be out of town in two weeks.
13:58:04 >> So moved.
13:58:04 >> Second.
13:58:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
13:58:06 (Motion carried)
13:58:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would follow up, Mrs. Kert.
13:58:11 You said at our last meeting would you research the
13:58:14 history of this city-county line.
13:58:20 >>> I believe that's scheduled to come back in 90
13:58:22 days.
13:58:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Excellent.
13:58:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I know there's an issue of the adult
13:58:31 use facility out on the county line and that was a
13:58:34 contentious issue that we all tried to get you not to
13:58:36 allow.

13:58:37 So good thing that we are having this conversation.
13:58:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I voted against it.
13:58:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I'm on this side now.
13:58:46 [ Laughter ]
13:58:47 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go into our workshop.
13:58:51 We need to open it.
13:58:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Should we finish the information?
13:58:56 Saul-Sena you Saul-Sena
13:59:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Council members, any information?
13:59:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, we have a wonderful
13:59:08 facility in the city called workforce.
13:59:13 She found people jobs, and job training.
13:59:15 I would like her to appear on September 6th for
13:59:18 three minutes at the very beginning of the meeting and
13:59:20 share her experiences.
13:59:21 Because there are a lot of city employees.
13:59:24 And they need to know about workforce.
13:59:27 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
13:59:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: There's a motion and second.
13:59:32 All in favor of the motion.
13:59:33 Any opposed?
13:59:34 Motion passes.

13:59:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
13:59:36 That's all.
13:59:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have two items I would like to
13:59:41 discuss.
13:59:42 One is during our absence on our vacation time the
13:59:44 office of general cable communication right next door
13:59:49 that does the filming of these events here at the
13:59:51 chamber did some renovation of their own.
13:59:54 I would like to have a commendation to Dan Fogarty and
13:59:59 his staff, they didn't go out for the highest or
14:00:03 lowest bidder, they did it themselves.
14:00:06 They got rid of all the old equipment and saved the
14:00:09 city thousands of dollars, in putting in all the new
14:00:14 modernization and technology.
14:00:16 So I would like to recognize it as a step forward in
14:00:20 the right direction.
14:00:20 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
14:00:21 (Motion carried).
14:00:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The second item, Madam Chair, is
14:00:26 last week I made a motion and not realizing that that
14:00:30 motion is actually moot because it's part of another
14:00:32 motion, and the motion was at that time to add and

14:00:36 support affordable workplace housing projects where
14:00:39 appropriate, and the motion carried.
14:00:41 It was regarding sidewalks and so forth and so on.
14:00:43 As I was advised by the administration, the motion was
14:00:48 not needed, as the statement already reflected in the
14:00:51 city codes and to update the five year consolidation
14:00:54 plan for the use of community development block grant,
14:00:56 investment partnership, emergency shelter programs,
14:00:59 housing opportunities, persons with aids, that are
14:01:02 being submitted so forth and so on.
14:01:05 The motion causes problems in the implementation of
14:01:08 the project.
14:01:09 This is also found on page 3 as a document under the
14:01:13 goals and providing decent and affordable housing.
14:01:16 It includes promoting public facility, infrastructure
14:01:20 improvements that support affordable housing
14:01:22 developments.
14:01:22 Also again on page 7 of that document, provide decent
14:01:26 housing.
14:01:26 It states that the eligibility activity in the
14:01:29 provision for public facility and infrastructure
14:01:32 improvements and supports public housing developments.

14:01:35 I would like to retract my motion because it's already
14:01:37 in the document that I have before me.
14:01:41 >> Second.
14:01:42 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:01:43 (Motion carried)
14:01:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Last week I got a call from a very
14:01:58 upset homeowner, Rebecca Smith, and I don't know if
14:02:02 you all saw this.
14:02:03 It was in the South Tampa section of the Tribune.
14:02:10 But what happened was, right across the street,
14:02:12 Rebecca lives right there on Himes, across the street
14:02:15 from Palma Ceia country club on one of the side
14:02:18 streets.
14:02:19 And in between her house and Palma Ceia country club
14:02:22 on the city property was seven very big oak trees.
14:02:27 I saw the stumps.
14:02:30 Anyway, the bottom line is, they are silk oak trees.
14:02:35 Apparently it's not part of our protected -- it's
14:02:40 smooth?
14:02:40 Thank you, Charlie.
14:02:41 It's not part of our protected trees.
14:02:43 So the country club didn't like the trees.

14:02:45 Rebecca liked the trees because they were shading her
14:02:48 house and shading the neighborhood.
14:02:49 Country club didn't like the trees because they said
14:02:51 they were dropping stuff on the golf course and that
14:02:54 sort of thing.
14:02:55 So the country club came to the city and asked the
14:02:59 city to remove the trees at the country club's
14:03:03 expense, and the city gave them the permit to do that
14:03:07 because the trees were in the right-of-way.
14:03:09 And the next thing Rebecca knows, she didn't get any
14:03:12 notice on this because there's no process for notice
14:03:15 on the removal of nonprotected trees, or any other
14:03:20 type in the right-of-way.
14:03:22 It's just between the applicant and the city
14:03:24 administration.
14:03:25 Anyway, bottom line is wakes up in the morning, they
14:03:28 have the whole street blocked off, and before she
14:03:30 knows it these seven trees are gone before she could
14:03:33 even get in touch with the mayor's office or my office
14:03:35 or anything.
14:03:35 And she's really upset.
14:03:37 And the trees are gone, and I think the country club

14:03:41 has to replace them.
14:03:42 I don't know how they replace them.
14:03:44 They probably start all over again with 2-inch trees
14:03:47 and go from there.
14:03:49 But she asked me to bring this up to council, get a
14:03:52 report from the administration, and perhaps ask us to
14:03:55 implement some type of notice so that adjacent owners
14:04:00 who have an equal right to the right-of-way might have
14:04:04 some input on this type of situation.
14:04:09 So she finishes up the article by saying it's a
14:04:12 tragedy.
14:04:13 And I do have a recollection of those trees.
14:04:16 And they were nice, big, shady trees.
14:04:20 They just didn't have to fall under our protective
14:04:23 category.
14:04:23 So any comments or MIG, any direction?
14:04:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's get a report back and look at
14:04:29 our protected tree list and look at the process.
14:04:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
14:04:34 Why don't we give them a month, give staff a month.
14:04:39 The end of August, last meeting in August, to come
14:04:42 back, give us a report on this particular issue, and,

14:04:46 more importantly, talk to us about the process and how
14:04:50 other neighbors might be more plugged into the
14:04:53 process.
14:04:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
14:04:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano?
14:04:59 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I have another subject.
14:05:00 (Motion carried).
14:05:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Yesterday, I went for a ride on
14:05:05 Bayshore, and I checked those bumps with Mr.
14:05:08 Daignault.
14:05:09 And they have a new product that they are going to be
14:05:11 using.
14:05:13 I don't know if you saw, Mr.
14:05:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Ding the article?
14:05:18 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Yes.
14:05:19 This product has been used but it hasn't been proven
14:05:21 here yet.
14:05:22 And they are probably going to do some grinding down
14:05:24 and apply this new product.
14:05:26 And it may work to alleviate some of those bumps.
14:05:30 So next time somebody goes to the hospital and has a
14:05:32 baby, there won't be any problems.

14:05:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That will be great if they can
14:05:38 solve that because it's getting worse and worse over
14:05:40 the years.
14:05:41 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: It is bad.
14:05:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else, Mr. Dingfelder?
14:05:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Nothing else.
14:05:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Madam Chairman, I want to, I guess,
14:05:49 ask that we take a look and discuss at the next
14:05:52 meeting on this Martin Chambers issue.
14:05:58 I don't know if you have backup.
14:06:00 I provided quite a bit of material.
14:06:02 So I would like to continue this to next Thursday
14:06:08 discussion by council.
14:06:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
14:06:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Do you want a time certain?
14:06:20 >>MARTIN SHELBY: As a reminder, the general rule, your
14:06:22 staff reports, unfinished business are limited to five
14:06:25 minutes unless you set a time limit otherwise.
14:06:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: 30 minutes, so let's make it a
14:06:32 little later.
14:06:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So that we can discuss the issue.
14:06:36 And I would encourage all council members to read the

14:06:40 material that's available so we can have discussion
14:06:42 and see where we want to move and ask the Justice
14:06:44 Department to take a look at it.
14:06:47 I think that it's been forty years and if the family
14:06:52 has not brought closure yet, there's opportunity for
14:06:54 council to do that.
14:06:55 I would hope we would be amenable to do that.
14:06:59 >>CHAIRMAN: Motion and second
14:07:07 Say what time.
14:07:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, normally, when you finish
14:07:12 with staff reports, the consent document, you go into
14:07:16 your public hearings.
14:07:17 If you wish to set this for a definite time certain to
14:07:21 stop the discussion, then perhaps you could -- how
14:07:24 much time did you say?
14:07:26 30 minutes?
14:07:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 30 minutes.
14:07:29 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Perhaps could you set it for 11:30
14:07:32 with the idea that your discussion will stop at 12:00,
14:07:36 and break.
14:07:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So moved.
14:07:38 >> Second.

14:07:38 (Motion carried).
14:07:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else?
14:07:43 Ms. Mulhern?
14:07:45 Okay.
14:07:45 I would like to have Mr. Steve Daignault come next
14:07:49 week and talk to the east-west road, unfinished
14:07:56 business under staff.
14:07:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
14:08:00 (Motion carried).
14:08:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk, do you have anything?
14:08:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved to receive and file.
14:08:10 >> Second.
14:08:10 (Motion carried).
14:08:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Marty Shelby, do you have anything?
14:08:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.
14:08:18 >>GWEN MILLER: I think -- do you want to speak now or
14:08:24 wait?
14:08:25 Okay, wait till next Thursday, Reverend Scott.
14:08:31 We are going to break and come back.
14:08:35 If you don't want to speak and wait till next
14:08:37 Thursday, that will be fine.
14:08:45 We are going to do it now but you are leaving.

14:08:47 So you are going to wait till next Thursday?
14:08:49 Okay.
14:08:50 See you next Thursday at 11:30.
14:08:52 Okay.
14:08:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: As finance chair, we agreed last
14:08:59 week to have our finance department workshop on August
14:09:02 30th at 1:30 p.m.
14:09:04 There's no night meeting that week.
14:09:06 That's good.
14:09:08 The question came up, where do we want to have the
14:09:13 meeting?
14:09:15 And if we want to have it here, do we want to have it
14:09:18 televised?
14:09:18 Because right now, we called it a workshop and I think
14:09:22 typically the workshops are not necessarily --
14:09:30 >> They are usually not here.
14:09:34 It's a 1:30 meeting.
14:09:37 You tell me what the norm is.
14:09:39 I don't know.
14:09:39 Because I want to make sure I know what council wants
14:09:43 to do.
14:09:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Customarily we don't televise.

14:09:46 We meet in the conference room and just discuss it.
14:09:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Right.
14:09:50 But customary is one thing.
14:09:52 We have a new council.
14:09:53 That's why I want to discuss it and see if everybody
14:09:54 is on the same page.
14:09:55 Because it's up to us.
14:09:57 It's not up to anybody else.
14:09:58 It's up to us.
14:09:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, my feeling is we
14:10:03 want to have give and take, we want a more informal
14:10:06 dialogue.
14:10:06 I think having it, even though I think it's not a very
14:10:08 attractive room but the police station conference room
14:10:11 so -- anyway, some conference room, I believe there's
14:10:16 one in new City Hall, enough to accommodate us and
14:10:19 staff.
14:10:20 I think that that would give more collegial give and
14:10:25 take.
14:10:25 I think when we have our officials public hearings
14:10:27 they are going to be here in front of cameras, but
14:10:29 this is workshop, asking questions, and I think that

14:10:32 having it in a conference room would create a more
14:10:36 productive atmosphere.
14:10:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: By the way, Darrell Smith says in
14:10:42 response to our motion, he says administrators and
14:10:45 selected department heads will attend the meeting, and
14:10:49 of course Bonnie Wise and Jim Stefan and their staff.
14:10:53 So you want to have it in new City Hall in one of the
14:10:57 conference rooms over there?
14:10:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The largest one they can muster.
14:11:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Any comments or second on that?
14:11:05 >> Second.
14:11:05 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
14:11:07 (Motion carried).
14:11:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you for the clarification.
14:11:12 So we'll have that.
14:11:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is it possible to ask the
14:11:16 administration to come back with where the location
14:11:18 would be so it could be sufficiently posted and people
14:11:21 would be on notice?
14:11:24 It's a public meeting.
14:11:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: They can let us know and we'll post
14:11:31 it next week.

14:11:31 August 30th at 1:30 p.m.
14:11:33 It's over in the new City Hall but it does need to be
14:11:40 posted.
14:11:40 Not advertised but at least posted there that there
14:11:43 will be a meeting over there.
14:11:45 That's it.
14:11:45 Thanks.
14:11:45 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to our workshop.
14:11:47 We need to open the workshop.
14:11:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
14:11:51 >> Second.
14:11:52 (Motion carried).
14:11:53 >>RANDY GOERS: Community planning division.
14:11:58 This workshop is a series of four workshops that we
14:12:01 have asked for council to schedule over the next four
14:12:04 months.
14:12:05 On the updated comprehensive plan.
14:12:11 The comprehensive plan is the knee initial draft with
14:12:15 the policy strategy stage and we believe it's
14:12:20 important to begin letting council know as well as
14:12:22 some of the general public what are some of the key
14:12:24 issues, some of the trends, and where we think the

14:12:26 comp plan update is going in the future.
14:12:29 One of the -- as the city's legislative body, one of
14:12:34 your most important roles is establishing policy.
14:12:40 With the comprehensive plan in particular, council did
14:12:44 find a determination of the interpretation, the
14:12:46 comprehensive plan.
14:12:47 And all of the land development issues that you face
14:12:50 in your tenure at City Council are rooted in the
14:12:53 comprehensive plan at some point.
14:12:55 Through policies, by what it says, or the actions of
14:12:58 policies by what it doesn't say.
14:12:59 So the plan update, to give you an opportunity as
14:13:03 council to begin bringing to our attention some of the
14:13:07 policy issues, some of the quality of life issues that
14:13:10 you have seen or you hear from your constituents that
14:13:13 you feel that the comprehensive plan should be
14:13:14 addressing.
14:13:16 Today's workshop will not go the entire time that we
14:13:19 have requested.
14:13:19 I think we requested two hours in our dialogue with
14:13:24 the Planning Commission staff.
14:13:28 We will get most of what they want to imparts to you

14:13:30 in about an hour.
14:13:31 We want to make sure there was enough time for
14:13:33 questions and comments by council members.
14:13:34 I would encourage you to ask questions and provide as
14:13:37 many comments as you can.
14:13:39 Going through that dialogue that you can give to us
14:13:41 that you can be sure that we are focusing on the right
14:13:44 issues, and focusing on the right policies and sound
14:13:47 strategies.
14:13:49 This workshop as I mentioned is one of the four
14:13:52 topics.
14:13:52 The first one is about growth in general, the people,
14:13:54 the changes that we expect to see the next 10, 20, 30
14:13:58 years, and how that's different than the past.
14:14:01 The second workshop which we held in August has to do
14:14:04 with what we call Tampa's urban forum, where we see
14:14:07 growth going and where we see the areas that are
14:14:09 desirable for growth. The third workshop which will
14:14:11 be held in September has to do with the connections,
14:14:14 the connection of transit, mobility transportation, as
14:14:18 well as connections to people and institutions and
14:14:21 people in government.

14:14:22 And finally, the fourth workshop, which will be held
14:14:24 in October, has to do with what we call public realm,
14:14:28 that's where people and places come together, the
14:14:32 urban design spaces, the gathering spaces where people
14:14:35 congregate.
14:14:37 So with that I would like to introduce Michelle
14:14:41 Ogilvie of the Planning Commission staff hole give you
14:14:44 a brief overview of the first workshop.
14:14:46 Thank you.
14:14:47 >>> Thank you, Randy.
14:14:48 My name is Terry Collin with the Planning Commission
14:14:52 staff.
14:14:54 I want this to be informal, even though this isn't the
14:14:58 most informal of settings.
14:15:01 I want it to be a conversation, with a little bit of
14:15:05 lecture series too from our side because we have been
14:15:07 at this now for four years.
14:15:09 This is a five year process.
14:15:10 You ever going to be going into public hearings next
14:15:13 April.
14:15:13 One of the reasons that I got into planning is because
14:15:15 it has the abilities to excite, to delight, and to

14:15:20 inspire.
14:15:22 But I don't think we have seen a whole lot of that
14:15:24 lately.
14:15:25 So I'm hoping that this, with the series of workshops,
14:15:30 will do just that -- excite, delight and inspire you
14:15:35 about what our future can be.
14:15:37 And this is based on four years of public involvement
14:15:42 and talking to countless people and sitting in
14:15:45 workshops with City Council, in workshops with the
14:15:49 city administration, and with countless in-house
14:15:56 meetings and research.
14:15:57 These are some of the conclusions we have come to.
14:16:01 What you are going to be going through today, let me
14:16:03 tell you what I want to achieve.
14:16:05 I want to start telling the story, all right?
14:16:07 Your comprehensive plan, your new comprehensive plan
14:16:11 is a story.
14:16:13 All right?
14:16:14 And I want to go over the first draft outline of the
14:16:17 plan, which is being circulated to all of you, so you
14:16:20 can begin to see how that story is being framed.
14:16:24 And I want to highlight some of the major messages

14:16:27 that are coming out from that story which results in
14:16:32 the kinds of issues, things that you need to be aware
14:16:34 of that we are going to need some discussion on, if
14:16:39 not today, at subsequent workshops.
14:16:42 But this is a plan like you've never seen before.
14:16:48 This is not your father's comprehensive plan.
14:16:50 And what we are bringing to you is a dramatically
14:16:55 different proposal to help Tampa become an even more
14:16:59 wonderful city than it is today, and bring us well
14:17:03 into the 21st century.
14:17:06 Let's start telling the story.
14:17:07 I have got a question for you.
14:17:11 What do the following cities have in common?
14:17:14 Portland, Oregon, Vancouver, British Columbia, and
14:17:20 Auckland, New Zealand?
14:17:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: They are all cold and wet.
14:17:26 >>> They are all Pacific rim cities.
14:17:28 Does anyone else know what those cities have in
14:17:30 common?
14:17:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Traffic?
14:17:34 >>TERRY CULLEN: That's part of it.
14:17:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Livable neighborhoods.

14:17:37 >>TERRY CULLEN: Getting warmer.
14:17:40 All of them are considered to be some of the most
14:17:42 livable cities in the world.
14:17:46 Now, when I would ask you, what are the three cities
14:17:48 you think are the greatest cities in the world, would
14:17:52 any of those have come up on that list?
14:17:54 Probably not.
14:17:57 So I want you to pause and think about that for a
14:18:00 moment, what you think the world's greatest cities
14:18:02 are, vis-a-vis what I just told you are three of the
14:18:06 most livable cities in the world.
14:18:10 It's very interesting.
14:18:11 Okay.
14:18:12 I am going to ask you another question.
14:18:14 Tell me what comes to mind.
14:18:16 Don't think about it a lot when I tell you, when I
14:18:19 mention Seattle, Washington.
14:18:22 Anybody?
14:18:24 Seattle, Washington.
14:18:25 What comes to mind?
14:18:28 >> Rain.
14:18:29 >> Cold, wet weather.

14:18:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Always rain.
14:18:33 >>TERRY CULLEN: When I hear Seattle Washington I think
14:18:36 of the Seattle space needle.
14:18:38 It's so iconic.
14:18:40 Seattle.
14:18:41 When I mention the next city, Portland, Oregon, I
14:18:45 can't come up with an icon that defines Portland,
14:18:48 Oregon.
14:18:49 Yet Portland, Oregon is probably the most livable city
14:18:51 in the United States.
14:18:54 And Seattle doesn't even make the top 100 in terms of
14:18:58 livable cities in the world.
14:19:00 Something to think about.
14:19:01 Just food for thought as we go through this.
14:19:04 Livability is the emphasis of this comprehensive plan.
14:19:08 This is what your constituents have been telling us
14:19:11 for four years.
14:19:16 If you take care of certain things that are really
14:19:18 important to us, you will create a livable city.
14:19:21 And that's where our future should be.
14:19:25 I have a very interesting -- and people that know me,
14:19:29 that have worked with me over the years, everybody

14:19:31 with the Planning Commission 21 years, know that I am
14:19:35 somewhat unconventional when I am trying to get a
14:19:37 point across.
14:19:38 There is something I want to talk to you a little bit
14:19:40 about.
14:19:40 There is in the city of Vancouver, which is ranked as
14:19:44 the fifth most livable city in the world, fifth or
14:19:49 third, let me say, Zurich, Vancouver, Vienna,
14:19:56 Auckland.
14:19:58 >> Where do we fit?
14:20:00 >>TERRY CULLEN: I didn't get Kuwait to that.
14:20:06 I'm at a loss for words.
14:20:07 In the city of Vancouver one of the most livable
14:20:10 cities in the world, there is a job opening.
14:20:12 It's for assistant director of community planning.
14:20:17 And I wanted to read to you what they are looking for,
14:20:22 for that position.
14:20:24 The candidate will provide leadership and be a
14:20:28 champion for community planning that integrates a wide
14:20:32 range of strategies for livable and sustainable
14:20:36 communities, including green buildings, and green
14:20:41 systems, I did verse housing types, urban design for

14:20:44 the community public realm, affordable housing,
14:20:49 heritage, and community amenities, and community
14:20:52 capacity building.
14:20:58 Now, for an equivalent position here in Hillsborough
14:21:00 County, an executive planner.
14:21:03 This is what the job requirement -- one of the job
14:21:07 requirements.
14:21:09 Conceives, negotiates approval to undertake and
14:21:13 manages the extraction of information to be used in
14:21:16 studies and reports related to land use, economic base
14:21:20 transportation system, utility systems, community
14:21:22 facilities, population, housing, and neighborhood
14:21:25 plans and programs.
14:21:31 >> Are you moving?
14:21:34 >>> First I need to let everybody know that job
14:21:36 posting is still open and it does close tomorrow.
14:21:38 And, no, I am not leaving.
14:21:40 I like Tampa too much to leave, even though that is a
14:21:43 great city.
14:21:44 And that is in the country in which I originally grew
14:21:46 up.
14:21:48 What I wanted to do was to illustrate through how we

14:21:53 even advertise our jobs, what people -- what these
14:21:58 cities are looking for.
14:22:00 Or these places are looking for in terms of the
14:22:02 planners that are looking at the future.
14:22:04 I thought that was interesting, just as a side bar.
14:22:08 >> We would like copies to share with our HR folks.
14:22:12 >> Be happy to do that.
14:22:15 The 21st century city is all about the quality of
14:22:18 experience.
14:22:18 The quality of experience to be in the city.
14:22:22 What does it feel like?
14:22:24 What do you sense when you are in that city?
14:22:28 And that quality of experience is defined by its
14:22:32 livability.
14:22:33 The 20th century model of what defined a great
14:22:37 city was often its buildings.
14:22:39 But the buildings do not exist without the people.
14:22:41 And one of the things you are going to hear a little
14:22:43 later on is that people are where it all begins.
14:22:47 Not buildings, but people.
14:22:48 Not cars, but people.
14:22:50 Because without people, there are no cities.

14:22:55 You may recall -- and one of the things that I'm very
14:22:58 strong on in this plan update is that Tampa is Tampa.
14:23:02 We are not Portland.
14:23:03 As wonderful as Portland might be, we are not
14:23:05 Portland.
14:23:06 Do not translate the Portland experiences to Tampa.
14:23:09 Let's make our plan home grown, build upon the things
14:23:11 that are most important to us, that define us as
14:23:15 Tampa.
14:23:15 So don't go over to Portland and start translating
14:23:19 these experiences, because I have no idea if they
14:23:21 really work here.
14:23:22 I need look inward first before I look odd ward.
14:23:26 Some of you were involved in the very first workshop I
14:23:28 had with Tampa City Council about four years ago, and
14:23:32 one of the things that we as the Planning Commission
14:23:35 staff asked you all is what makes Tampa a memorable
14:23:38 place?
14:23:40 And I remember Gwen, what you had said, that we are a
14:23:45 friendly people.
14:23:46 I remember that so distinctly because that has stuck
14:23:50 in my mind.

14:23:51 And I said, yes, you know, Toronto, which is
14:23:54 considered one of the most livable cities in the
14:23:56 world, I don't consider it to be a friendly people
14:24:00 city.
14:24:00 I have been there many times.
14:24:02 I have lived there.
14:24:03 They are not.
14:24:04 I mean, they are plight, pleasant, but they are not
14:24:08 Tampa friendly.
14:24:09 And then I remember Linda bringing up food, which made
14:24:13 me smile, because in the 21 years that I have been
14:24:17 here just as a little side bar, at one time Linda was
14:24:20 pregnant and she would come into the council chambers
14:24:23 and she would have her food and her snacks during
14:24:27 public hearings.
14:24:28 So I know Linda is very food oriented.
14:24:30 And she does.
14:24:31 She always talks about wonderful places she's
14:24:33 discovered to eat in the city.
14:24:35 And, you know, we have an incredible food heritage in
14:24:39 Tampa.
14:24:39 I don't see that in Portland.

14:24:42 In all the times I have been to Portland I can't tell
14:24:45 awe defining food experience in Portland that I
14:24:48 couldn't find nip where else but I found all those
14:24:51 kind of food experiences here in Tampa that I know are
14:24:53 nowhere else.
14:24:54 So what I am getting at is that we need to look inside
14:24:57 first.
14:24:58 This is an inside job, figuring out our future.
14:25:02 Resist the temptation to immediately go and see what's
14:25:04 in another city and try to carbon copy it.
14:25:07 Look at what we have got first and build it from the
14:25:10 inside out.
14:25:13 And that's really important because the title of your
14:25:15 plan is going to be "building our legacy -- a livable
14:25:19 city."
14:25:20 And that's very important, because that's going to be
14:25:22 throughout the entire plan itself.
14:25:24 What does it mean to be livable?
14:25:26 I'm going to turn the microphone over to Michelle for
14:25:29 just a moment to discuss some things through the
14:25:34 international cities movement.
14:25:35 It is very real, and going on worldwide.

14:25:38 And I am going to ask her to say a few points about
14:25:41 what it means to be livable.
14:25:48 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: Planning Commission staff.
14:25:50 Livability, as Terry has stated, is an international
14:25:54 movement.
14:25:58 I have talked to staff people.
14:26:00 It's what would have happened in the 20th century,
14:26:02 early 20th century, when we talked about cities
14:26:05 beautiful, and some of these very same cities adopted
14:26:13 back in the 20th century are livable cities today.
14:26:16 Livability refers to the quality of your experience,
14:26:21 categorized by effective use of infrastructure,
14:26:25 optimizing all the assets that the city has, it's
14:26:29 water, sewer, transportation, and all the other
14:26:31 facilities.
14:26:32 It links policy, planning policy and the use of the
14:26:36 land with public investments, to maximize those assets
14:26:41 just spoken of.
14:26:42 It maintains the city's identity.
14:26:46 One of the things that Terry hasn't touched upon yet,
14:26:50 public involvement process, which we just completed at
14:26:53 the end of March.

14:26:54 And I recall we had one of our participants was a
14:26:58 gentleman from England, who is back in England right
14:27:01 now, he will be back in the fall, and he kept saying
14:27:04 to us, where are your icons?
14:27:06 Well, we were polite but icons are 330,000 people that
14:27:12 live in the city.
14:27:13 That's what makes Tampa, Tampa.
14:27:15 The friendliness, shall heritage, and we are going to
14:27:18 be talking to but how to maintain that identity later
14:27:22 on in our four sessions.
14:27:24 Art for the public.
14:27:26 Something the City of Tampa has embraced for many
14:27:28 years.
14:27:31 Balanced transportation planning, not about cars but
14:27:33 rather about mobility.
14:27:34 How we get around, for our children and for everybody
14:27:38 else.
14:27:39 It's a great place for children.
14:27:44 Something we heard in the public involvement process,
14:27:46 and that's how it actually led us to the livable city
14:27:51 umbrella.
14:27:53 That's one thing that the public would not let go of,

14:27:57 is make a great place for children.
14:27:59 The public realm creates the sense of place.
14:28:03 That's our streets and sidewalks and parks.
14:28:05 And engaged citizenry and we are going to talk a
14:28:08 little about that.
14:28:12 A healthy environment.
14:28:14 A variety of housing options.
14:28:17 And finally and most importantly, about equitable and
14:28:24 vibrant economy which is something that Tampa has
14:28:26 continued to enjoy.
14:28:31 >>TERRY CULLEN: Thank you, Michelle.
14:28:34 As Michelle mentioned this has been so far four years
14:28:36 in the making.
14:28:37 What we discovered very early on is the old plan does
14:28:40 not work.
14:28:43 All right. Let's say that I'm an average citizen in
14:28:48 the City of Tampa, and there's a development coming up
14:28:52 in my community, and throws a rezoning hearing in
14:28:55 front of Tampa City Council.
14:28:58 But I'm not sure what to do about it.
14:29:00 So what I do is, as your average citizen, as I turn to
14:29:04 my trusty comprehensive planner that I have on my

14:29:10 coffee table -- no, I want you to see the humor in
14:29:13 this, because it is.
14:29:14 And then I pull out -- because I know because as the
14:29:20 average citizen I am full fully investigated in what I
14:29:23 am being told is my future for my city, and I decide
14:29:26 that I'm looking at this one objective, and I'm going
14:29:29 to go to council and say, do not recommend for that,
14:29:32 because the implementation of a compatible integrated
14:29:35 development pattern in the City of Tampa shall be
14:29:37 achieved through the mitigation of adverse land use
14:29:40 impacts inconsistent with the long range plan.
14:29:43 As an average citizen I don't know what it means but
14:29:47 it sure sound important.
14:29:49 What I am getting at is this plan is now almost ten
14:29:51 years old, and it worked in a different day and age.
14:29:56 It doesn't work very well right now.
14:29:57 And you use this all the time, and you know more than
14:30:02 anybody the issues that are the limitations of what we
14:30:06 have here.
14:30:09 I'm sorry but the world doesn't think in terms of
14:30:12 these strict linear elements such as Capitol
14:30:15 improvements, followed by housing, or -- I haven't

14:30:18 thought about sewer in the city's policies on sewer in
14:30:20 quite some time.
14:30:22 I don't think that way.
14:30:23 I think a lot differently.
14:30:25 I tend to think a lot more like what the average
14:30:28 citizen on the street thinks about.
14:30:30 It like the economy, my job.
14:30:32 Am I going to be able to stay employed?
14:30:34 Will I be able to have a house?
14:30:36 Will I be able to have good schools to raise my
14:30:38 children?
14:30:39 What about my children?
14:30:40 Is the city going to be a good place for them to grow
14:30:43 up?
14:30:43 Those are the kinds of issues that we heard when we
14:30:46 were out there talking to everybody.
14:30:49 We put together -- we heard from thousands of people
14:30:52 over the four years, and we created two focus groups
14:30:57 called is the study circles at different points in the
14:30:59 process.
14:31:00 And the study circle represented the demographic
14:31:05 profile of the City of Tampa and they came from all

14:31:12 over the city and they represented different racial,
14:31:14 cultural groups, and there were men and there were
14:31:17 women and younger people and older people.
14:31:19 And we got an ear full about what Tampa could be for
14:31:26 the future.
14:31:27 So our mission is to try to translate that into a
14:31:32 plan.
14:31:32 As government, we feel our responsibility back to our
14:31:35 citizens is to give them that plan that will help them
14:31:39 get to where they want to be in the future.
14:31:42 This plan is going to be at least 20 years out.
14:31:45 So we are talking about another generation.
14:31:49 So there's some very interesting things that came out
14:31:51 of this.
14:31:52 One is that we were very firm that we wanted to create
14:31:56 a plan that made sense to the average person on the
14:31:59 street.
14:32:00 So the average person on the street would embrace it,
14:32:03 see the value in looking at the future, and begin to
14:32:09 empower them to help make -- so that they can help
14:32:12 make Tampa a great place to be.
14:32:14 And that the plan needs to be Tampa.

14:32:17 As I said before, it's not Portland and it's not
14:32:19 Charlotte.
14:32:20 It's got to be Tampa.
14:32:21 And last but not least, the plan has got to meet all
14:32:25 of the state requirements.
14:32:27 Because one of the concerns typically like from
14:32:30 bureaucrats, especially from people that I work with
14:32:34 in-house, the Planning Commission is, you have got to
14:32:36 make sure that includes all of the public facilities
14:32:40 and all the requirements that the state has set forth.
14:32:44 Absolutely.
14:32:44 They are going to northbound there. But we are going
14:32:46 to give them a different slant that's more unique to
14:32:50 the city that we call Tampa.
14:32:54 This is an important, important statement I want to
14:32:57 make.
14:32:57 This is not fuzzy humanism.
14:33:03 10, 15 years ago, I would have had my hands slapped
14:33:06 and said, this is a touchy feely plan, you do not go
14:33:09 there, this is not fuzzy humanism.
14:33:12 This is four years of research, of working with
14:33:15 citizens, to truly find out what people in the city

14:33:18 want.
14:33:19 We did the same -- had the same experience with Temple
14:33:22 Terrace and Plant City, and we are creating plans that
14:33:25 are unique and individualized for those two cities,
14:33:28 also.
14:33:29 And you want to know something?
14:33:30 They are nothing like what we have got for Tampa.
14:33:33 Each one is very, very different.
14:33:35 And every time that we bring this stuff forward, the
14:33:38 citizens look at us and keep validating that we are
14:33:41 heading in the right direction.
14:33:44 So we truly believe about this.
14:33:46 We are very passionate about this.
14:33:48 And we are taking you through these workshops because
14:33:52 we want you to understand what it is that we are
14:33:53 trying to do, and recommend to you, so that there's
14:33:57 plenty of time to address the concerns that you're
14:34:00 also hearing.
14:34:01 And so that you can understand how all of this fits
14:34:03 together, and will work for you will all of us.
14:34:07 Now, out of all that public involvement, out came
14:34:11 eight themes and four values, and the eight themes

14:34:14 which were Michelle touched upon are livable city
14:34:18 themes, in part, these are the things that the
14:34:21 citizens have told us are most important that they
14:34:24 want to see addressed in their plan as part of their
14:34:27 future.
14:34:27 We talked about assets.
14:34:29 The things that make Tampa great today are the
14:34:35 combined experiences and everything and everyone that
14:34:37 came before us.
14:34:40 And they left behind assets.
14:34:43 It's a strong diversified economy.
14:34:47 Its heritage.
14:34:48 There's wonderful things that we have in this city.
14:34:50 Okay.
14:34:52 And so there's a lot of assets, neighborhoods,
14:34:56 interconnectedness, arts and culture, the central city
14:35:01 systems, children, and how people grow and change our
14:35:04 future.
14:35:04 And we have four values, that this came from the study
14:35:08 circle, four values on which to use as a benchmark, in
14:35:12 determining whether or not you are actually
14:35:14 furthering -- if you further these values, you will go

14:35:18 a long way towards achieving a more livable city.
14:35:21 Prosperity, respect, livability, and resilience.
14:35:29 I can't simplify it any more than that.
14:35:32 If you remember those four values, and nothing else,
14:35:36 those four values will serve to help implement what is
14:35:39 going to be the new comprehensive plan.
14:35:41 And through your day-to-day decision making actually
14:35:44 start building this more towards a livable city.
14:35:51 I am going to go over to Michelle who is going to a
14:35:54 little bit about outline.
14:35:56 I am going to stay up and interject with some of the
14:35:59 issues.
14:36:00 What got us to the story itself is that before this
14:36:06 comprehensive plan we had to look inward to see who we
14:36:08 are, we had to look outwards to see how we connected
14:36:10 with everybody around us, and we had to look forward,
14:36:14 out into the next 20 years.
14:36:21 There's powerful change forces at work and will be in
14:36:23 the future.
14:36:31 We are going to get older, and get younger, too, as
14:36:35 the baby boomer moves into the next year into
14:36:37 retirement.

14:36:38 We are going to get more diverse culturally and
14:36:40 ethnically.
14:36:41 So we are changing.
14:36:43 And we have to find ways to use that change as an
14:36:49 opportunity to further build our city into something
14:36:52 better, more towards the future that we are hearing
14:36:56 from the citizens.
14:36:59 At this point, I am going to turn it over to Michelle.
14:37:02 I am going to stand here, and I am going to
14:37:05 intersperse with some of the issues with respect to
14:37:08 the major pieces of the outline of the plan.
14:37:10 Once you understand the outline and some of the issues
14:37:12 that you're hearing, that will better prepare you for
14:37:16 the types of conversations that we are going to need
14:37:19 to have.
14:37:30 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: I have provided at the very
14:37:32 beginning of the handout our draft outline of the
14:37:34 comprehensive plan.
14:37:38 Terry has touched upon how we got to livability.
14:37:45 So we will begin our comprehensive plan story on a
14:37:47 mission.
14:37:48 I think our comprehensive plan is a mission, and the

14:37:52 campaign towards livability, in which 20 years out we
14:37:55 will know that we have arrived at the livable city.
14:37:59 The first thing is that, of course, our future begins
14:38:02 with the people and the children.
14:38:05 Terry spoke to the diversity of our Tampa people.
14:38:12 And one of the things that you will have to be
14:38:14 thinking about in this process is, as we become more
14:38:18 diverse, as we become people who did not grow up next
14:38:22 door to each other, we have 330,000 and growing each
14:38:27 day, how will we bring us together?
14:38:30 How do we engage all shareholders in this
14:38:35 comprehensive plan?
14:38:36 And that is our business people, those who are
14:38:40 concerned about the environment, those who are
14:38:43 concerned about children, those who are concerned
14:38:45 about making -- being more prosperous.
14:38:50 All of us are making a conscious decision every day to
14:38:54 lead us somewhere.
14:38:55 Can we all be on the same page and go towards that
14:38:59 livable city?
14:39:00 And that will be a very interesting conversation.
14:39:02 I think you will touch on that some more.

14:39:06 On the issue.
14:39:08 >> Do you want me to describe the issue you? As you
14:39:13 see a lot of times when you are into, let's say,
14:39:16 rezoning hearings, you have "us versus them."
14:39:19 Oftentimes you have the unstoppable force meets the
14:39:22 immovable object and council tends to be put right in
14:39:26 the middle, and that creates a lot of issues.
14:39:29 The way that the present system is set up makes it
14:39:33 difficult to be able to pass through the kind of
14:39:37 dialogue and consensus dialogue building in the
14:39:41 process to be able to come up with perhaps more
14:39:43 constructive solutions.
14:39:46 So one of the issues that we are talking about, is
14:39:50 there a different way that that could be done, and not
14:39:52 just with the rezoning process but the whole way we
14:39:55 look at how people are involved in growing and shaping
14:39:57 and exchanging our -- changing our city?
14:40:00 When I gave you the job description for the city of
14:40:02 Vancouver's position, one of the terms used in there
14:40:05 was community capacity building.
14:40:06 That is something that we have been talking about
14:40:08 since the days that we did the neighborhood plan for

14:40:10 Tampa Heights.
14:40:12 And that is simply that there's an as set out there.
14:40:15 You have a community out there that has capacity to be
14:40:18 able to handle a lot of issues, to be able to really
14:40:22 make a difference in the city.
14:40:25 But can we tap into that?
14:40:27 How can we leverage that asset?
14:40:29 That's community capacity building.
14:40:31 Cities around the country and around the world using
14:40:33 that now.
14:40:35 That is a very viable tool that can help to extend
14:40:39 scarce resources, because we can't rely on the
14:40:42 government having the money to do everything.
14:40:45 That's very apparent, especially now.
14:40:47 With respect to the children, approximately a quarter
14:40:50 of our population in the City of Tampa are children.
14:40:52 They had no voice.
14:40:54 Would you be willing to give them a voice?
14:40:56 I'm asking you questions that you probably have never
14:40:59 thought before or heard before.
14:41:01 You are probably asking me, you're probably wondering,
14:41:05 how am I going to pay for infrastructure or how am I

14:41:09 going to change the land use and I'm not even going
14:41:11 there.
14:41:11 I'm asking whether or not you would be willing to give
14:41:13 children a voice.
14:41:14 Or is there a place for them in the process?
14:41:16 You design a city that works for children.
14:41:18 You designed a city that works for everybody.
14:41:22 Michelle, had you want to talk a little about
14:41:24 importance of children.
14:41:28 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: We all hear this theme, they are
14:41:31 our future.
14:41:32 But they really are.
14:41:33 Tampa has this very unique theme in our entire United
14:41:38 States, last week Monty was talking to staff about
14:41:42 change and talking about getting older.
14:41:43 But for some reason, Tampa is going in the opposite
14:41:46 direction.
14:41:48 We have this rich resource that brings life and
14:41:53 vitality to our city, and do we want to embrace them
14:41:57 and help them in the next 20 years take over this
14:42:01 changing world?
14:42:05 There will be need for people to work.

14:42:10 They are our workforce in the future.
14:42:11 They will need to be prepared to work on a global
14:42:15 market, in a global wormed, and that's part of the
14:42:19 change.
14:42:19 Can we do that?
14:42:20 I think we can as a city.
14:42:24 Through many different types of activities.
14:42:26 The children become -- embrace their neighbor
14:42:31 neighborhoods and their city because they experience
14:42:32 them.
14:42:33 I remember Mr. Dingfelder talking about going through
14:42:36 South Tampa as a young boy, and hunting and stuff.
14:42:40 You can't do that anymore.
14:42:42 But if we could just guest around our city, be more
14:42:46 mobile, our children having the opportunity to go
14:42:49 somewhere without mom or dad getting in a car and
14:42:54 driving them somewhere and then programming them and
14:42:57 moving them on.
14:42:58 And many live that life by our children don't today.
14:43:04 It's important, they are the one that is will carry on
14:43:07 our legacy.
14:43:08 So, council, now is the time for us to really think

14:43:11 about how we represent our children.
14:43:12 >>TERRY CULLEN: An important point to note, because
14:43:16 some of you have not heard this before, is that you're
14:43:19 probably thinking, we have never dealt with children
14:43:21 before.
14:43:22 Are you asking us now to find money to start dealing
14:43:24 with children?
14:43:26 No, not at all.
14:43:28 We are asking you to consider taking on the role of
14:43:31 what we call conductor in the orchestra.
14:43:35 One of the perceptions at the neighborhood level, at
14:43:38 the local level, individual citizens, is that
14:43:40 government is very fragmented.
14:43:43 They don't understand who is supposed to do what.
14:43:45 Oftentimes, they are shunted from one level of
14:43:48 government to another in trying to get their issues
14:43:50 addressed.
14:43:51 One of the things, the thoughts that came out through
14:43:54 this process, was that the city were to become,
14:43:58 quote-unquote, the conductor and the orchestra, was to
14:44:01 set forth the vision and the plan, and then ask all
14:44:05 the community partners to begin rallying around for

14:44:07 that.
14:44:08 For example, the children's board which has a separate
14:44:14 funding by the way, and if they were to understand
14:44:16 this was the city's vision and what they wanted to see
14:44:19 happen with the children in Tampa, these groups could
14:44:21 start rearranging, over time, their functional plans,
14:44:25 and their resource allocations to make that happen.
14:44:28 As conductor and the orchestra, downtown actually play
14:44:32 the musical instrument, but there's so many musical
14:44:35 instruments out there that if there isn't a conductor,
14:44:39 all those people are doing is making noise.
14:44:41 How do we turn that noise into music?
14:44:43 We need a conductor. The conductor sets forth that
14:44:48 leadership and overall visionary quality of what they
14:44:50 are trying to put together.
14:44:51 That's the idea behind it.
14:44:53 You are touching upon topics you never had to deal
14:44:55 with before.
14:44:56 But we are asking you not to shy away from it.
14:44:58 Simply keep an open mind, think about it.
14:45:13 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: At this point before we move onto
14:45:15 our second mission in the comprehensive plan update,

14:45:17 did you have questions?
14:45:19 Please feel free to interrupt us.
14:45:23 Because we are very passionate about our comprehensive
14:45:26 plan update.
14:45:27 And we'll talk to you all afternoon, although we
14:45:31 promised just one hour.
14:45:33 Before we move on, would you like to see how the rest
14:45:35 of it unfold and then come to questions?
14:45:49 There is a section on the highlights of children and
14:45:51 all the -- the people changing and growing our city,
14:45:55 for your information, that you can perhaps look at if
14:45:57 you want to.
14:45:58 And we will be back two weeks Thursday so the
14:46:06 conversation continues.
14:46:07 Our next campaign in the comprehensive plan, our
14:46:10 second mission, is a future in which we have a livable
14:46:14 urban form.
14:46:17 We have taken the themes of vibrant central area,
14:46:19 which is both the city, as well as downtown, and then
14:46:24 put them as the core.
14:46:26 And we'll be talking to you more about that in two

14:46:29 weeks.
14:46:30 We have put together neighborhoods.
14:46:32 And move the economy to the next chapter.
14:46:36 We talked about that some.
14:46:40 Last night we felt the economy needs to be in chapter
14:46:43 3 of the campaign mission of structuring our
14:46:47 interconnected future, tying together transportation
14:46:55 choices, infrastructure, housing, and the economy.
14:46:59 There is a link between all three of those that will
14:47:02 lead us to a very prosperous future.
14:47:07 >>TERRY CULLEN: Let's go back to chapter 2.
14:47:09 Think of the livable urban form as the bones of the
14:47:11 city.
14:47:13 I'm not going to get into a lot of detail because you
14:47:15 are going to spend a whole workshop next on it.
14:47:17 But I am going to give you a little bit of a teaser.
14:47:20 Okay?
14:47:21 One of our experiences that we had over the past
14:47:23 several years -- and it comes from working with City
14:47:26 Council a lot -- is growth is going in areas where it
14:47:30 wasn't anticipated.
14:47:31 And it's creating a lot of issues with neighborhoods.

14:47:35 And it's creating a lot of that collision course that
14:47:37 we were talking about, where council is being put in
14:47:39 the middle.
14:47:40 So the idea is that change in growth is good.
14:47:43 But is there a way to better manage it?
14:47:46 And we are looking at our urban form and looking at
14:47:49 strategies to better manage that growth.
14:47:50 Is it possible, for example, to direct the growth into
14:47:53 certain areas, most of the growth into certain areas
14:47:57 to take pressure off of perhaps stable neighborhoods,
14:48:02 or the areas where we don't want to see so much
14:48:04 growth?
14:48:05 And, if so, how would we do that?
14:48:07 We are looking at three large districts in the city as
14:48:10 part of the urban form, where we want to be able to
14:48:13 focus most of the growth.
14:48:15 One is the downtown heritage district.
14:48:19 Two is the Westshore airport district.
14:48:21 And three is the university institution hospital
14:48:25 district.
14:48:27 Interestingly enough, all three areas have incredible
14:48:30 economic engines in them that drive, in part, and

14:48:34 define Tampa as the dominant economic force in the
14:48:38 region.
14:48:39 So it makes good sense to see how we can work with
14:48:42 those areas to focus more change in there so that we
14:48:46 can leverage those opportunities to the max.
14:48:49 And one of the questions these coming up is, are we
14:48:53 ready to concentrate growth in those districts?
14:48:57 You don't have to answer that per se right now but
14:48:59 that's a thought and we are going to be asking that
14:49:01 question and having a conversation at the next
14:49:02 meeting.
14:49:03 And what role will the city play in leveraging those
14:49:09 opportunities to create economic growth within those
14:49:12 districts, to foster development?
14:49:15 Because in order to accommodate the 90-some-odd
14:49:19 thousand people that are expected to come here in the
14:49:21 next 20 years, you know, we don't have a lot of vacant
14:49:25 land left so a lot of it is going to come through
14:49:27 redevelopment.
14:49:28 We have to make some choices.
14:49:30 So rather than wait until it arrives, let's make some
14:49:33 informed choices and make it in such a way that it

14:49:36 changes the city into something that we really would
14:49:38 like to see for the future.
14:49:40 Finally, how will we build those partnerships to make
14:49:43 those economic opportunities pop?
14:49:46 Because we don't even address the economy in the
14:49:49 current plan.
14:49:50 But that's so important, because if we are going to
14:49:54 remain competitive within the region, and also start
14:49:58 to step up to the plate and acknowledge that we are
14:50:00 moving onto a global playing field, we need to be
14:50:04 ready for it.
14:50:05 And we are going to try to feed some of that into the
14:50:08 comprehensive plan so that it can help Tampa move
14:50:11 forward in that respect.
14:50:14 Another part of it is the conversations that have to
14:50:16 occur with the neighborhoods.
14:50:19 It's probably the first thing that went through all
14:50:21 your minds.
14:50:22 Oh, the neighborhoods.
14:50:23 And the neighborhoods have a vital role in this.
14:50:27 Absolutely.
14:50:28 One of the things that we look at, if we are going to

14:50:32 redefine neighborhood, because the whole city is a
14:50:35 collection of neighborhoods.
14:50:36 Some of them are your residential traditional only
14:50:39 neighborhoods.
14:50:40 Some of them are business neighborhoods.
14:50:41 And some of them are mixes of any different -- number
14:50:44 of different variations in between.
14:50:46 So we need to start thinking that we are dealing with
14:50:51 neighborhoods across the entire city.
14:50:52 And so perhaps there needs to be different strategies
14:50:55 for different types of neighborhoods instead of just
14:50:59 treating that all the same across the board, no matter
14:51:02 where you are.
14:51:04 See, this plan worked back in the '90s when we had
14:51:08 no growth.
14:51:08 And now we have growth.
14:51:09 And it doesn't work.
14:51:11 And so there's a need for change with respect to a lot
14:51:17 of that.
14:51:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You mentioned the term downtown
14:51:23 heritage district.
14:51:24 I never heard the term before.

14:51:27 Where is this heritage district?
14:51:31 How far?
14:51:31 Is it defined?
14:51:33 >>> It's not defined.
14:51:34 It's a qualitative element.
14:51:37 It all began here.
14:51:39 And everything that is Tampa, with the exception of
14:51:43 Port Tampa city, started here and moved outwards.
14:51:47 And so when you look at the city of downtown, not only
14:51:50 is it a huge office district, financial district, it
14:51:55 is also a collection of really unique, historic
14:52:00 neighborhoods that reflect all different cultures that
14:52:06 came through here from Ybor to Tampa Heights to West
14:52:09 Tampa to Palmetto Beach.
14:52:11 There's in East Tampa there are historic neighborhoods
14:52:17 that added so much to this city.
14:52:18 So I don't want to just say downtown and forget about
14:52:21 the fact that we have heritage in this area, these
14:52:24 areas, that needs to be -- is an opportunity to really
14:52:29 make those neighborhoods shine.
14:52:33 So it all works together, not separately.
14:52:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A little, except for the fact you

14:52:43 said you saw new growth concentrated in those three
14:52:46 areas, downtown heritage, Westshore, and university,
14:52:52 the Westshore university, I don't necessarily have a
14:52:56 large problem with it, but at some point I didn't know
14:52:59 how expansive your perception is of downtown heritage.
14:53:04 >>TERRY CULLEN: And you will see that in two weeks.
14:53:06 And you are very astutely pointing out a challenge
14:53:15 when you are talking about neighborhoods, historic,
14:53:17 very sensitive to changing times, how do you balance
14:53:21 that with an overall district where you want to focus
14:53:23 a lot of growth and change?
14:53:25 Yes, we are very acutely aware of that.
14:53:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But what's historic?
14:53:30 I've got neighborhoods in my district that are 40, 50
14:53:34 years old that generally want to be left alone, and
14:53:39 getting very recent will of much growth.
14:53:45 450, 50 years old is not necessarily historic per se.
14:53:48 >>> The tentative strategy is by focusing the change
14:53:50 into those three larger districts.
14:53:52 It's got a lot of neighborhoods such as the ones in
14:53:55 the Interbay peninsula would be stabilized.
14:53:58 It's not saying we would say no to any change or

14:54:03 growth, but to try to lessen the pressure that they
14:54:06 are experiencing.
14:54:12 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: One of the things about livable
14:54:14 cities is one of the principles of living cities,
14:54:18 there are areas of change and areas of stability.
14:54:20 And that's what we are bringing to knew two weeks to
14:54:25 talk about.
14:54:28 Back to campaign number 3, structuring the
14:54:31 interconnective future, and those balanced
14:54:34 transportation choices and mobility will be most of
14:54:36 the focus. This is where we will begin to discuss how
14:54:40 we make land use and transportation connect.
14:54:45 And it will be very exciting.
14:54:47 Because that's still going on.
14:54:49 But Terry will talk to you a lot about that.
14:54:53 Infrastructure.
14:54:54 The water, the sewer and the other things that make
14:54:57 our city work will also be connected in this chapter
14:55:01 and this campaign.
14:55:05 Housing.
14:55:05 The affordability of housing.
14:55:07 It's part of the people and the children is that we

14:55:11 need places that work for all people in our city, not
14:55:16 just those who can afford the $1.2 million homes that
14:55:22 Terry goes to see on weekends.
14:55:25 He does.
14:55:29 In there, a little piece of the recreational space
14:55:31 element, our infrastructure.
14:55:34 We looked at it mostly are levels of service but we
14:55:37 have never really done something to see it as a
14:55:40 qualitative experience of connections.
14:55:43 >>TERRY CULLEN: There's three points to the goal of
14:55:49 interconnected.
14:55:50 We looked at areas.
14:55:52 Now we are looking at ways to interconnect them.
14:55:54 It's done through our infrastructure which of course
14:55:56 includes transportation.
14:55:57 It's done through housing.
14:56:00 And it's done through the economy.
14:56:02 Because as the economy grows, the need for housing
14:56:06 expands, the infrastructure expands so all the areas
14:56:11 begin to become interconnected.
14:56:13 That's the theory behind it.
14:56:14 The idea of some of the issues with respect to that is

14:56:18 how do we move around?
14:56:19 Mobility choices.
14:56:21 And this is a hot top you can right now.
14:56:25 It's not -- I submit to you, it not a question of are
14:56:34 we going to get a rail system.
14:56:35 It is when. The same way that the creation of the
14:56:37 Internet created international expansion globally, a
14:56:48 new transportation system has that same potential to
14:56:50 dramatically create new economic opportunities.
14:56:56 Now, I just give you a very generalized example.
14:57:00 Don't worry about the numbers.
14:57:02 Just throwing them out there. Let's say today, in the
14:57:06 downtown itself, that we have enough roads to bring in
14:57:12 100,000 people, by car, into the downtown, and take
14:57:16 them out, with our assorted traffic jams, so on and so
14:57:22 forth.
14:57:22 I put in a rail system, and I have expanded the
14:57:26 capacity of bringing people into that downtown area.
14:57:30 Now all of a sudden, I can provide more office space
14:57:34 than maybe I could have under the way we are doing it
14:57:36 today, because concurrency, and the road congestion
14:57:41 was stopping me from putting anything more in there.

14:57:43 But if I put a rail system through there, and I can
14:57:46 bring instead of 100,000 people in a day I can bring
14:57:51 in half a million, what's that going to do?
14:57:55 >> That means that all our surface parking lots can
14:57:58 become something else.
14:58:02 >>> Possibilities.
14:58:02 You're starting to dream.
14:58:03 And that's exactly what we are talking about, is that
14:58:06 the city needs to be economically prosperous and
14:58:10 viable.
14:58:11 And if you don't think that other cities in the region
14:58:17 are trying to take over that position, the county has
14:58:21 so much land out there, they can build Greenfield
14:58:25 development, they can put in big, huge office parks,
14:58:28 they can put in brand new subdivisions.
14:58:31 The city is challenged because just about everything
14:58:34 they want to do is going to have to come through
14:58:36 redevelopment.
14:58:41 And that is much more difficult to do than Greenfield
14:58:43 development.
14:58:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A classic example is an article in
14:58:48 the paper the other day about an intersection in

14:58:50 Pasco, off the expressway, the veterans expressway, or
14:58:54 whatever they call it when it goes up further, and
14:58:57 there's a major intersection out there at 52 or 54,
14:59:00 one of them, that said that they are developing
14:59:04 hundreds of thousands of feet, there's no reason to
14:59:07 come into downtown Tampa anymore because we are going
14:59:09 to have everything you need out here.
14:59:11 And I think that's the kind of competition you're
14:59:13 talking about, sort of classic you are balance sprawl
14:59:22 to create the nodes further and further out.
14:59:25 Look at the big economic drivers.
14:59:27 South of south Florida.
14:59:28 Tampa International Airport.
14:59:29 MacDill Air Force Base.
14:59:30 Actually, we have the planning representative from
14:59:36 MacDill Air Force Base, Christina Hummel, who is
14:59:40 also an ex-officio member on the commission because
14:59:42 she wants to hear about the comprehensive plan update.
14:59:46 That's how important MacDill is to this community.
14:59:49 Those are just some of the huge economic drivers we
14:59:52 have in this city that nobody else has.
14:59:55 How do we leverage that?

14:59:57 The Moffitt partnership.
15:00:00 Isn't that a wonderful partnership, that would have
15:00:03 been so wonderful if they moved up to Pasco County?
15:00:06 No.
15:00:06 No.
15:00:08 What role do we all play in making that happen?
15:00:11 And finding those opportunities so that we can be the
15:00:16 dominant economic engine in the region, that we can
15:00:19 move up to a global playing field, that we can use
15:00:21 this change to make us one of the most livable cities
15:00:24 in the country.
15:00:27 And then finally housing.
15:00:29 That's the third point in the triangle.
15:00:32 This is an usual you that's been around for a long,
15:00:35 long time, and that's affordable housing.
15:00:38 Because we need it.
15:00:40 Now you're hearing such terms as "attainable housing."
15:00:45 I can't even get the attainable housing.
15:00:48 And I consider myself to be middle class.
15:00:49 The reason Michelle mentioned a $1.2 million home, I
15:00:53 suppose I go look at it over the weekend, they had the
15:00:56 urban tour of homes and condos and I went and loot at

15:01:00 all these wonderful, beautiful condos, pretty much all
15:01:03 out of my price range.
15:01:06 So it's going to be difficult.
15:01:10 If any of you have read or understand the creative
15:01:14 class, and the whole theory and the concept that was
15:01:16 brought up by Dr. Rich Florida hop was a professor of
15:01:23 mine back in the '80s, I this I it's the
15:01:27 24-35-year-old age group, brings so much of a dynamic
15:01:32 into the community, that they can propel change
15:01:36 forward in a positive way.
15:01:38 But when you compare cities across the country in
15:01:41 terms of who has the most 24 to 35-year-old people as
15:01:46 a proportion of their population, right up there, and
15:01:51 Tampa is right down here.
15:01:52 And parted of that is, can they afford to live here?
15:01:55 We have always thought of ourselves as being, well,
15:01:58 our cost of living is lower across did country.
15:02:01 But when you start looking at cost of living in the
15:02:03 cities and comparing them across the country, our
15:02:06 housing prices are creeping right up there with some
15:02:10 of the more expensive ones.
15:02:11 So it is a challenge.

15:02:12 And government's role in it is somewhat limited.
15:02:16 But we have got to be willing to explore some
15:02:18 different avenues to make that happen.
15:02:30 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: Our first campaign mission will be
15:02:33 integrated city through healthy environment, the
15:02:35 assets that we have of public realm, arts and culture.
15:02:42 And Terry touched a little on that arts and culture
15:02:44 and heritage, which you want to expand on the issues,
15:02:49 correct?
15:02:49 >>TERRY CULLEN: When we talk about interconnection, we
15:03:05 are joining.
15:03:06 When we talk about integration we are talking whole,
15:03:08 and those are the things that the -- we are all at the
15:03:11 forefront of a huge, green revolution, a green
15:03:14 movement, and becoming a more sustainable community.
15:03:19 All the research seems to point to the fact that we
15:03:21 may be facing some really serious changes in our
15:03:24 lifestyles if we don't start doing something now.
15:03:29 And so we are looking at initiatives that can help
15:03:33 perhaps from a sustainability aspect.
15:03:35 And that's a question for council to take a look at,
15:03:40 and how far should we go with this?

15:03:42 Where should we go with it?
15:03:43 And what should be included as part of that?
15:03:46 Arts and culture and heritage all speak so much to our
15:03:50 identity.
15:03:52 And that's what helps to make Tampa so uniquely Tampa.
15:03:56 So are we willing to really try to leverage that and
15:03:59 build upon in our day to day actions?
15:04:03 When we look at a rezoning, how are you going to be
15:04:06 able to say that that little piece of property and
15:04:09 that little rezoning, how is it going to affect
15:04:12 whether I'm sustainable or whether or not I'm
15:04:15 fostering my arts and culture and heritage in the
15:04:19 city?
15:04:20 And what are the things -- one of the things we want
15:04:23 to ask you is would you willing to consider a values
15:04:26 based consideration process?
15:04:28 That's a big one.
15:04:29 Core values.
15:04:30 Livability, respect, resilience, pros expert.
15:04:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Terry, one of the things under this
15:04:37 environment public real himself art and culture, it
15:04:39 might be -- these two might be subsumed subtly.

15:04:44 But I'm sure historic preservation came up as a big
15:04:47 discussion for your various study groups.
15:04:51 So I think we need to really make sure that that's an
15:04:55 emphasis under our environment, as well as tree
15:04:59 preservation.
15:05:00 Council spent a lot of time on both of those issues,
15:05:02 historic preservation and tree preservation.
15:05:04 And I think that the reason we do is those two issues
15:05:09 have evolved over the last decade, as important issues
15:05:12 to this community.
15:05:13 >>TERRY CULLEN: Absolutely right with that.
15:05:17 Very, very critical.
15:05:21 Trees, though we don't go -- sometimes trees can be
15:05:24 viewed as infrastructure.
15:05:26 Especially green infrastructure and where we are
15:05:28 going.
15:05:29 I look at our office windows and the City of Tampa
15:05:33 looks like a forest.
15:05:34 If you have ever flown into San Francisco, you will
15:05:37 see the park, some of the larger parks, and you will
15:05:41 see a sea of concrete.
15:05:44 We do have something very unique with our tree canopy

15:05:47 here that I think we may take for granted.
15:05:53 >>MARY MULHERN: I wanted to say something about arts
15:05:59 and culture and also about affordable housing.
15:06:03 One of the things that continued today had to do with
15:06:07 density bonuses in Channelside.
15:06:10 And in the periphery, which is maybe your downtown
15:06:15 heritage.
15:06:16 Is that what we are talking about, that periphery?
15:06:21 >>TERRY CULLEN: It's part of it.
15:06:22 It's much larger than that.
15:06:24 >>MARY MULHERN: I think when you talk about values
15:06:27 based planning it's dangerous because there are a lot
15:06:31 of people contributing and people -- you know, we have
15:06:34 some shared values but others -- other things are more
15:06:37 important to us.
15:06:38 But I think for affordable housing, that could be a
15:06:43 standard that I think we could all agree is definitely
15:06:46 a goal.
15:06:50 When you start to talk about arts and culture in the
15:06:53 realm of the kind of developments that we are planning
15:06:58 or approving, I worry that the idea that you can do
15:07:05 some, you know, add some little amenities, that's

15:07:08 artsy, or you could have some public art, which is
15:07:12 not -- I think to have a city that supports arts and
15:07:19 culture is a much larger thing.
15:07:21 And it's larger institutions, like museums, and
15:07:26 symphonies, and universities.
15:07:29 And so I don't know how this all fits into your
15:07:32 comprehensive plan, except to say that I would not
15:07:37 put -- if you are talking about, you know, residential
15:07:40 development, or retail in downtown, I would not put
15:07:44 arts and culture on the same level as I would
15:07:47 affordable housing because affordable housing is
15:07:50 absolutely something and that we need, and that's what
15:07:55 concerns me when we get to the reality of making these
15:08:00 changes to the comprehensive plan and approving them,
15:08:02 that we have got all these kind of amorphous ideas
15:08:08 about what is an amenity and something that will make
15:08:11 it livable when really there are some real basics, and
15:08:15 I think arts and culture is a basic.
15:08:17 But on the level of the zonings for a condo building,
15:08:23 I don't see it as an important thing to allow density
15:08:30 bonuses.
15:08:31 I mean, I just think that there is just so much.

15:08:44 While you arrived at some concepts of what people
15:08:46 share, when you get to the reality of picking these
15:08:49 things, it's a little more -- more consensus.
15:08:55 >>TERRY CULLEN: Understandably so, yes.
15:08:58 The specifics, let's take the arts and culture.
15:09:01 Now, in your role, you're very limited in your role on
15:09:04 what you can do to effectuate change with arts and
15:09:07 culture.
15:09:08 You can require it as part of the land development
15:09:10 regulations which you do today.
15:09:12 But if you set forth the visionary qualities of what
15:09:14 you want from an arts culture, that's your conductor
15:09:25 and orchestra, then all the groups that are working in
15:09:27 arts and culture begin to see, this is what the city
15:09:30 wants for the future.
15:09:31 And begin to align that way.
15:09:33 So there's two different levels at which to plan for.
15:09:38 >>MARY MULHERN: Let me just one thing and then I'll
15:09:40 hear what you have to say.
15:09:42 But maybe what I'm thinking of, if you are going to
15:09:44 give any kind of consideration or incentive to have
15:09:49 arts and culture, we need to think of that in a bigger

15:09:54 picture, not like, okay, I'm going to put, you know, a
15:09:59 turtle in my lobby, one of those Manatees or turtles
15:10:05 or whatever, maybe whatever the cost of that would be,
15:10:07 you would contribute to the art museum.
15:10:13 You know, something like that.
15:10:14 So that we are building more quality, the quality
15:10:21 level.
15:10:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The arts council -- spent about a
15:10:30 year and a half developing a comprehensive plan and it
15:10:31 is fantastic.
15:10:32 And it hasn't been presented to council yet.
15:10:34 But I would assume that you all use that as part of
15:10:37 thinking about this.
15:10:38 And I think what we need to do, now how we are going
15:10:41 to be moving towards having presentations on the
15:10:44 fourth Thursday, to get a presentation on that, it
15:10:47 will be really helpful.
15:10:48 >>MARY MULHERN: Does that somehow get incorporated?
15:10:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's really good and really big
15:10:55 picture and answers some of the questions you have.
15:10:59 >> On that subject I think one of the things I would
15:11:01 like to picture is that arts and culture goes beyond

15:11:06 what you have described as we know it today.
15:11:10 But there is heritage.
15:11:12 And that is the collective, all that richness that
15:11:17 council has had in the past from Cuban,
15:11:23 African-American, Italian, Spanish, all that is also
15:11:27 in the mix of arts and culture, and it's why we put
15:11:30 the historic resource element as a representative in
15:11:35 there.
15:11:35 Going back to Mr. Dingfelder and bridging in some arts
15:11:39 and culture and affordable housing into something you
15:11:42 just said, that is that how can we begin to preserve,
15:11:48 just like a box factory earlier today, and get some
15:11:52 housing on our corridors to build trance transits that
15:11:59 work?
15:12:01 We have lots of opportunities in the big picture.
15:12:05 Planning is, no offense, it goes beyond zoning which
15:12:10 is one of City Council's big responsibilities.
15:12:13 But as Terry has talked about that, the conductor and
15:12:18 the orchestra, planning touches on so many other
15:12:20 things that we have opportunities in this
15:12:23 comprehensive plan to broaden our discussion to begin,
15:12:31 never embraced to the arts master plan that's just

15:12:33 been completed.
15:12:34 And so we do have some opportunities to really broaden
15:12:38 and make a great city in 20 years, to build our
15:12:45 legacy.
15:12:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: One other thing, and Mary, this
15:12:48 dovetails with what you said.
15:12:51 In the prior council, I think last winter, we had a
15:12:54 very quick discussion about expanding -- the
15:12:57 possibility of expanding the public art ordinance to
15:13:02 go beyond right now, which right now it's just
15:13:05 downtown.
15:13:05 I don't even know that it's Channelside, is it?
15:13:08 It's not Channelside.
15:13:09 It a very small area that the public arts ordinance
15:13:15 affects.
15:13:15 I think why should downtown be any different?
15:13:17 We are in the process of approving that big MetLife
15:13:20 project on Boy Scout and all the other projects on Boy
15:13:23 Scout and all the big projects out at the university
15:13:25 area, and that sort of thing, so they all kind of slip
15:13:28 through the track cracks and they don't have either a
15:13:31 public art contribution in terms of on-site, or

15:13:36 perhaps what you are ugh suggesting, perhaps, you
15:13:38 know, is a public art contribution to the arts counsel
15:13:45 or to the museums or to whatever.
15:13:48 And that would really put some meat and some money
15:13:54 toward -- put our money where our mouth is as a
15:13:57 community.
15:13:57 Because right now, we can talk about public art and
15:14:00 culture all we want.
15:14:01 But if we don't have the money and resources behind
15:14:04 it, it ends up being a lot of paper.
15:14:12 So the last council came in, sorts of at the tail end
15:14:16 of the last council and didn't get anywhere but this
15:14:18 is something this council might want to talk about,
15:14:21 expanding the art issue into the rest of the city.
15:14:23 And I'm not talking about residential, you know, or
15:14:27 anything like that.
15:14:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Projects like 100,000 square feet
15:14:31 or less.
15:14:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Over a certain threshold,
15:14:34 commercial or residential, and then maybe kick into
15:14:37 some level of contribution.
15:14:38 I think it's a good idea.

15:14:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Expanded to the police station and --
15:14:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We did that.
15:14:57 And we put the requirement on ourselves, ironically as
15:15:00 a government, but in the private sector, we failed.
15:15:03 Whatever.
15:15:05 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, my concern, and this is coming
15:15:09 from an international fine art background, is that if
15:15:18 you truly wants to promote arts and culture, you are
15:15:21 not just talking about putting a little piece of art
15:15:26 in every area.
15:15:28 So I don't know.
15:15:30 I like the idea.
15:15:31 If we could turn it into like a trust fund for housing
15:15:34 and trust fund for art.
15:15:38 >>TERRY CULLEN: The first thing is try to start with
15:15:41 establishing what the visionary qualities are that you
15:15:44 as leaders in the city would like to see, and connect
15:15:46 it to something such as the plan by the arts council.
15:15:51 That can then take shape over time.
15:15:53 But it's that same idea when it comes to other aspects
15:15:57 of the plan itself.
15:15:58 For example, children.

15:16:00 If you establish the visionary qualities of what you
15:16:02 want top see for children in this city.
15:16:05 Sadly, a lot of children in this city grew up in
15:16:07 poverty, and we worked in a number of the
15:16:10 neighborhoods with that.
15:16:11 What kind of future citizens are they going to be?
15:16:15 Then if you establish the goals that you want and the
15:16:18 visionary future for that, that will help at one level
15:16:23 to align the functional agencies towards the common
15:16:26 end.
15:16:27 And then on the other level, the plan operates in the
15:16:30 realm of where you have specific authority and
15:16:33 responsibility.
15:16:35 For example, for the city, such as the land use.
15:16:39 What land uses are going to, as a tool -- land use is
15:16:44 simply a tool to help you achieve that end.
15:16:46 What types of land uses are going to work in different
15:16:51 districts?
15:16:51 What makes sense for our more stable areas of the
15:16:53 city?
15:16:55 Our infrastructure, our sewer and water, for example,
15:17:00 are we putting the capital investment into the

15:17:05 facilities in such a way that it is directing the
15:17:07 growth to where we want it to go?
15:17:10 How can we use public investment as a means to create
15:17:15 the kind of end result we want?
15:17:17 Because when the city puts in the public investment,
15:17:20 the private investment typically follows.
15:17:23 So it's starting to think of the city as one entity
15:17:28 that works together.
15:17:32 And you all are at the center.
15:17:33 You're at the center.
15:17:34 Because it's not any other level of government or any
15:17:37 other organization that can assume that leadership.
15:17:41 It's the city, the legislative and the executive
15:17:44 branches working together in a common way to say all
15:17:48 Todd Pressman all the levels of government agencies
15:17:50 that have influence on our city, this is what we want.
15:17:54 And for the first time ever, we may actually create a
15:17:57 comprehensive plan that is truly comprehensive.
15:18:01 And I am not going to touch on the paying for it or
15:18:03 implementing it for our future.
15:18:05 Those discussions will follow.
15:18:07 I do want to explore the idea of community capacity

15:18:10 building with you, and get your ideas as to whether or
15:18:13 not you think that's workable.
15:18:16 The same kinds of conversations are happening, or have
15:18:20 to happen with the city administration, too. So this
15:18:23 has been four years of the slow consensus building and
15:18:27 discovery process.
15:18:28 But it has been time well spent.
15:18:31 Everywhere I take this, it's amazing how much it gets
15:18:37 validated, by people that know nothing about planning.
15:18:42 And when people come up to me and blame City Council
15:18:44 for their property taxes, no, no, no, they have
15:18:48 nothing to do with property taxes.
15:18:50 It's understanding what the leadership roles are
15:18:53 within the community.
15:18:54 And that's the city.
15:18:55 The city is the leader, and the city is council.
15:18:59 It is the mayor.
15:19:00 It's the administration together.
15:19:10 You have much more significant scans and influence
15:19:13 than you ever thought because you approve the
15:19:15 comprehensive plan.
15:19:16 You are the final arbiters of the comprehensive plan.

15:19:18 Yes, you work with land use.
15:19:20 You work with zonings.
15:19:21 You have different responsibilities there.
15:19:23 Butter the ones that are going to approve and adopt,
15:19:27 by ordinance, a long-range plan that's going to guide
15:19:30 the future of this community.
15:19:32 And I personally and professionally -- and I know I
15:19:36 speak on Michelle's behalf -- we want a plan that
15:19:39 speaks to Tampa, that excites, delights, and inspires.
15:19:44 Okay.
15:19:45 And with that I am going to close the staff portion of
15:19:49 the workshop.
15:19:51 Any other questions you might have.
15:19:53 As Michelle mentioned we'll be come back together in
15:19:55 two weeks and we are going to roll up our sleeves and
15:19:58 talk urban form, going to look at the different areas
15:20:01 within the urban form and what does that mean?
15:20:05 So what we wanted to show you is that there's an
15:20:09 outline for a plan.
15:20:10 We are starting to talk the story that is Tampa's
15:20:13 future.
15:20:14 And by the time we bring this to public hearing, we

15:20:17 really sincerely hope you are talking that story, too.
15:20:20 Thank you.
15:20:24 >>TERRY CULLEN: Terry, hold that up right now.
15:20:29 Our comprehensive plan, that's probably volume one.
15:20:33 Is our ultimate goal to take this outline that we have
15:20:38 just been talking about today, and to say those
15:20:43 thousands of goals, objectives, policies, and to
15:20:46 convert it into this language, so, in other words, at
15:20:50 the end of the day and a year or two from now, we will
15:20:53 in a longer have that book per se, we will have a new
15:20:56 book that's based upon what you have just been talking
15:20:58 about?
15:21:00 >>> Right.
15:21:01 We are looking at an entire rewrite of the
15:21:04 comprehensive plan.
15:21:05 We are hoping that we can make it slimmer, trimmer,
15:21:07 and where you may actually want to keep it on your
15:21:11 coffee table.
15:21:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Where it won't break your coffee
15:21:15 table.
15:21:16 >>> Exactly.
15:21:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.

15:21:25 >>> I have one closing comment.
15:21:26 If there are any additional comments or questions that
15:21:28 you have prior to the workshops, the next workshops,
15:21:31 one thing you can maybe suggest is maybe you can
15:21:33 transfer those to Mr. Shelby who can compile them and
15:21:37 then he can transfer them to our department, to my
15:21:40 attention, and we can make sure the Planning
15:21:42 Commission staff has them before the workshops.
15:21:45 Any question -- you have the outline and you know some
15:21:49 of the issues that may come to mind before the
15:21:51 workshops that you may want to see if there's any
15:21:53 specific thought at that point in time, so we can have
15:21:55 the -- go over the workshops to provide you the
15:21:59 information that is important to you.
15:22:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
15:22:03 Terry and Michelle, I talked to a number of citizens
15:22:06 who took part in the planning circles and they thought
15:22:08 they were dynamite.
15:22:09 And what I think would be helpful is if you gave the
15:22:13 council members a list of the Tampa people who
15:22:15 participated.
15:22:15 So if any of them are friends of ours, they can get

15:22:19 some feedback on how that went because that we very
15:22:23 innovative and resulted in this which is by far the
15:22:25 most interesting thing that local planners have ever
15:22:28 come up with and it's really our ability to talk
15:22:31 directly with study circle participants, I think,
15:22:33 would be a good thing.
15:22:34 >>TERRY CULLEN: Our goal is to eventually bring them
15:22:38 all back together again so they can see what actually
15:22:40 came out of it.
15:22:41 Thank you.
15:22:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you all.
15:22:47 We appreciate that.
15:22:47 We look forward to our next workshop.
15:22:49 Two weeks.
15:22:50 Okay.
15:22:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We are adjourned?
15:22:53 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
15:22:54 I have an announcement the next workshop is August
15:22:56 30th.
15:23:01 City Hall building on the fifth floor.
15:23:03 The conference room is 2-MOB whatever that is.
15:23:09 >> Tampa Municipal Office Building.
15:23:10 >>GWEN MILLER: On the fifth floor.
15:23:12 Anything else coming before council?
15:23:13 We stand adjourned until 6 p.m.
15:23:14 - - -