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Tampa City Council
Thursday, August 30, 2007
9:00 a.m. session

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09:04:49 [Sounding gavel]
09:04:50 Tampa City Council is called to order.
09:04:52 The chair will yield to Reverend Scott.
09:04:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We will stand now for our invocation
09:04:58 and remain standing for our pledge of allegiance.
09:05:05 Father, you have instructed us to acknowledge you in
09:05:07 all of our ways and give direction to our path so
09:05:09 today we pause and say thank you.
09:05:11 Thank you for this beautiful day, a day that you have
09:05:15 called the sun to rise and you touched us and allowed

09:05:17 to us experience your grace and your mercy.
09:05:19 We thank you as we come together as a community, as
09:05:22 leaders.
09:05:22 We pray now for this City Council, that you bless us
09:05:25 today and give us the wisdom and knowledge and
09:05:28 insight.
09:05:28 Help us today to deal with the many challenges and
09:05:31 issues that are before us.
09:05:32 May we be thoughtful in our deliberation, and be
09:05:35 patient in our discussion, and we pray today that you
09:05:38 might help us to make wise decisions for the
09:05:40 betterment of this community and those which we serve.
09:05:43 Not only for us but we pray for all elected offerings
09:05:46 as cross this nation as they deliberate and they
09:05:49 discuss issues that are so important to this nation.
09:05:52 Bless our nation, the men and women who are fighting
09:05:55 on foreign soil for democracy and freedom to protect
09:05:58 us.
09:05:59 Thank you now for what should be accomplished on this
09:06:01 day, and we will always give your name in thanks.
09:06:04 In your name we pray.
09:06:06 Amen.

09:06:08 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:06:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:06:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:06:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:06:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:06:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:06:32 >>MARY MULHERN:
09:06:34 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:06:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:06:37 Before we begin I would like to say on the record that
09:06:39 Ms. Mary Mulhern will not be in attendance at the
09:06:42 council meeting this morning.
09:06:43 We now go to the approval of the agenda.
09:06:49 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, with regard to item number
09:07:01 2, the Centro Ybor matter, procedurally, I suggest
09:07:12 that council hold that item and recess, take it up
09:07:14 under the CRA, and when council reconvenes then
09:07:17 council will be able to address that item.
09:07:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: After CRA?
09:07:23 After 3 p.m.?
09:07:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, after 3 p.m.
09:07:26 That would be my recommendation.

09:07:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
09:07:30 >> Second.
09:07:31 (Motion carried).
09:07:31 >>MARTIN SHELBY: With regard to items 6 and 7,
09:07:41 council, are your rules of procedure as a housekeeping
09:07:44 matter and it has been suggested that that being the
09:07:46 case, it be taken up at the end of the meeting to
09:07:48 allow the people to be taken care of first.
09:07:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
09:07:53 >> Second.
09:07:53 (Motion carried).
09:07:54 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And with regard to number 8, which is
09:07:57 the first reading of the sign code, council, it's my
09:08:06 recommendation that you allow the public to address
09:08:09 you before you take it up, so it would be my
09:08:13 recommendation that you hold that item till after
09:08:15 agendaed public comment, and those people in the
09:08:18 audience who are here to address number 8, the sign
09:08:21 code, do so under the agendaed public comment portion
09:08:24 of the meeting.
09:08:26 That would be my recommendation.
09:08:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.

09:08:28 >> Second.
09:08:29 (Motion carried).
09:08:29 >>GWEN MILLER: One more thing?
09:08:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: One more thing, council.
09:08:34 With regard to I believe it's scheduled 1:30 Finance
09:08:38 Committee special discussion meeting, I believe there
09:08:42 is a proposal to have its location changed to the City
09:08:47 Council chambers from the fifth floor of the municipal
09:08:51 office building.
09:08:51 It's been posted downstairs.
09:08:53 It hasn't been officially approved by the council.
09:08:56 And the other item that's related to that is whether
09:09:01 as presently a special discussion meeting, whether you
09:09:03 want the clerk to record it because it will be in the
09:09:05 council chambers and therefore you would have to ask
09:09:07 the clerk to do that.
09:09:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Would we change to the a workshop?
09:09:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Could you do that.
09:09:13 That will be fine.
09:09:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move it be modified to a workshop
09:09:17 at 1:30 in chambers, and I don't think it's going to
09:09:19 be televised because that wasn't arranged in advance.

09:09:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:09:23 (Motion carried).
09:09:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Obviously, council, would be required
09:09:33 as you know.
09:09:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Need a motion to a proffer the agenda.
09:09:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
09:09:39 >> Second.
09:09:40 (Motion carried).
09:09:40 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to our sign-in sheet.
09:09:43 Mr. Sal Territo.
09:09:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: While he's coming up at some point
09:09:48 I would like to introduce our student intern.
09:09:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Could you hold one second, Mr. Territo?
09:09:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's my pleasure this morning to
09:09:56 introduce Elizabeth borders.
09:10:00 Elizabeth is a senior at the University of South
09:10:01 Florida, majoring in sociology, and she'll be
09:10:05 graduating in December.
09:10:06 And I'm so pleased to work with her this semester,
09:10:11 three, bright, helpful people are a gift to our
09:10:14 community and I appreciate her working with me and
09:10:17 Tampa City Council this semester.

09:10:18 Thank you for joining us, Elizabeth.
09:10:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I also have a recent graduate of
09:10:25 the University of South Florida, Alysse Makaloro.
09:10:34 If you don't do your job too well I guess you will
09:10:36 have opposition next time.
09:10:38 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to welcome you.
09:10:40 Do you want to say anything?
09:10:43 Okay, Mr. Territo.
09:10:44 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
09:10:47 I'm here with two off-agenda items, a hold harmless
09:10:51 agreement which I think you have been briefed on, the
09:10:53 police and fire departments want to take advantage of
09:10:56 the fact that Central Park has been demolished and
09:11:00 this will allow us to do that.
09:11:02 >> Are these walk-ons?
09:11:05 >>SAL TERRITO: Yes, they are.
09:11:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Anything unusual about them?
09:11:09 >>SAL TERRITO: No, standard.
09:11:11 >> So moved.
09:11:12 >> Second.
09:11:12 (Motion carried).
09:11:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Julia Cole.

09:11:20 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:11:21 I am here on agenda item number 22, which is a
09:11:24 resolution for City Council to support the city's
09:11:28 efforts in applying to become a preserve America
09:11:30 community.
09:11:31 The reason I brought this forward early is we need to
09:11:34 have this signed today so it can be included in the
09:11:37 application packet which is going out first thing in
09:11:39 the morning.
09:11:40 So I am going to go ahead and give the chair a copy of
09:11:43 the resolution so we can execute that as soon as
09:11:47 possible.
09:11:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to compliment Dennis
09:11:49 Fernandez for bringing this forward to us.
09:11:51 It gives Tampa an opportunity not only for recognition
09:11:54 but potential -- we had these in our packets last week
09:12:01 for consideration so it would be my pleasure to move
09:12:03 this resolution.
09:12:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
09:12:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Do it now?
09:12:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Now.
09:12:08 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.

09:12:09 (Motion carried).
09:12:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 1.
09:12:20 >> Robin: Legal department, item number 1, regarding
09:12:25 whether the council the process for the convention
09:12:31 center.
09:12:32 I believe you have copies of a memo prepared on this
09:12:34 matter.
09:12:34 Be happy to answer any questions.
09:12:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have discussed this previously.
09:12:40 It's coming before council just takes up extra time,
09:12:43 it doesn't mean anything, and it would expedite the
09:12:49 contracts being accepted.
09:12:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott?
09:12:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I thought we couldn't do it because of
09:12:59 the charter language.
09:13:01 Read the backup because of the charter language that
09:13:03 we could not do that. The charter would have to be
09:13:06 changed to permit that.
09:13:07 Is that a fact?
09:13:09 >>> Yes.
09:13:10 We tried to expedite the process by preparing a
09:13:13 standard license agreement but the majority of the

09:13:15 contracts don't come to council.
09:13:17 It's only when there's a significant change to the
09:13:19 language such as the indemnity provision or attorney
09:13:23 fees or something like that.
09:13:24 It becomes basically a new contract.
09:13:26 But most of the parties renting out the convention
09:13:29 center just use the standard agreement.
09:13:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda?
09:13:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm not here to differ with
09:13:36 Reverend Scott or Ms. Saul-Sena, but I believe that
09:13:39 somewhere in the past we had exactly what Ms.
09:13:42 Saul-Sena said, that these minor changes could go
09:13:46 through the administration once the contracts were
09:13:49 approved so they could expedite and possibly not lose
09:13:51 a convention or two for the convention center to make
09:13:55 business more -- but I'm not disputing Mr. Scott's
09:13:59 review of the thing.
09:14:00 So I will have to be based on the facts that are come
09:14:03 forward this morning.
09:14:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: In reading the memo -- and I think
09:14:11 the issue was research under attorney Massey before he
09:14:17 left, and I don't think we have anyway around it under

09:14:20 the current state of the charter.
09:14:21 And I'm sure if the convention center could figure out
09:14:23 a way not to come to us they would, but they can't, so
09:14:26 we shan't.
09:14:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: If we do a charter change let's put
09:14:33 it on the list.
09:14:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:14:35 Item number 3.
09:14:41 >>> Santiago Corrada, neighborhood services
09:14:44 administration.
09:14:45 We have some special guests this morning to report on
09:14:48 items 3 and 4.
09:14:50 For item 3, we have Mr. Ken Rawlings, the director of
09:14:53 the Tampa Museum of Art.
09:14:55 For item 4 we have Mr. C.J. Roberts, who is the CEO
09:14:59 and president of the Tampa Bay history center as well
09:15:01 as Mr. Al-Najjar, the CEO and president of the
09:15:05 children's museum of Tampa.
09:15:06 Before I turn over the microphone to Mr. Rawlings, I
09:15:10 would like to make a brief statement.
09:15:12 As a member of all three boards and the mayor's
09:15:16 representative on all three boards, and being

09:15:18 intimately involved with the development and design
09:15:20 for the three facilities, I can assure you that the
09:15:23 focus has been on efficiency and an environmentally
09:15:27 friendly facility.
09:15:28 All three boards understand the cost of sustaining
09:15:31 these facilities into the future, and their architects
09:15:34 everybody adamant about making environmentally
09:15:37 friendly and efficient facilities.
09:15:38 But I will have them speak to that specifically, and
09:15:41 they have also had some members of their boards here,
09:15:43 and some of the folks that have helped with the design
09:15:45 of those facilities.
09:15:46 So now, without any further delay, Mr. Ken Rawlings.
09:15:55 >>> Madam Chair, members of City Council, delighted to
09:15:58 be here today, and equally delighted that you are
09:16:02 interested in sustainability of public buildings.
09:16:05 We have been so since the beginning of the Tampa
09:16:08 Museum of Art.
09:16:10 Even though we have not been required to be green or
09:16:13 sustainable, it's something that we certainly intend
09:16:15 to do and working towards.
09:16:17 I have a handout that I would like to provide to you.

09:16:28 And what you have there is a listing of 26 initiatives
09:16:33 that are underway in the design and the ultimate
09:16:36 construction of the New Tampa Museum of Art.
09:16:40 Things like pollution prevention.
09:16:42 By the way, it was prepared by the contractor,
09:16:48 construction manager, and also Pete Karamazanas, our
09:16:54 architectural consultant.
09:16:56 But you will see things like pollution prevention
09:16:58 program.
09:16:59 We are utilizing as you know a previously developed
09:17:01 site and returning three times the footprint of the
09:17:03 museum to pervious park land.
09:17:07 We are reducing non-root heat islands by the design of
09:17:11 the building, 40-foot overhangs around the building
09:17:14 that will reduce the reflective surfaces that would be
09:17:17 surrounding the building.
09:17:18 We will have a vegetated roof that's highly
09:17:22 reflective.
09:17:23 We will have water-conserving fixtures throughout the
09:17:27 building.
09:17:27 There will be zero use of CFC refrigerants in the
09:17:32 building.

09:17:32 The list goes on and on.
09:17:34 I would be happy to go into detail on all 26 items if
09:17:37 you would like me to, but my intent in being here
09:17:40 today is to simply tell you that we are certainly
09:17:43 working towards an environmentally friendly,
09:17:47 energy-efficient building, in all these 26 initiatives
09:17:51 are underway, and if you like we can go into more
09:17:54 detail.
09:17:54 I would be happy to do that.
09:17:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Councilman Saul-Sena?
09:17:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I had an opportunity to talk with
09:18:00 Mr. Rawlings in some detail about this, and while the
09:18:04 building won't be labeled LEED certified, it will be a
09:18:09 sustainable building.
09:18:11 The first green roof in town.
09:18:14 And a number of the steps they are taking are
09:18:16 sustainable.
09:18:17 And I'm satisfied that you are doing this
09:18:20 conscientiously, because the museum is going to have
09:18:25 to pick up its air conditioning bill for the future so
09:18:27 it's definitely in our interest to design a new museum
09:18:31 that's as energy conserving as possible, and I know

09:18:34 that you are looking at the carbon footprint
09:18:37 implications.
09:18:38 >> And as a museum we have very stringent
09:18:40 requirements.
09:18:42 That's simply incumbent upon us to achieve concerning
09:18:45 preserving the collection and so on.
09:18:47 So we have to maintain a very low level of humidity, a
09:18:50 very low temperature, and we want that to be as
09:18:53 efficient as possible.
09:18:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
09:18:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you to the entire museum
09:18:59 board and museum community for working on this, and
09:19:05 Mr. Corrada as well.
09:19:07 I think our community, we are just now embracing, you
09:19:10 know, these green and sustainable concepts
09:19:13 wholeheartedly.
09:19:14 And yet the museum design has been going on for about
09:19:19 a year.
09:19:20 I think if we could have caught this earlier, perhaps,
09:19:24 you know, we might have been able to find some money
09:19:26 to put toward it to make sure that it was certified,
09:19:29 and that way we could lead by example.

09:19:32 But in light of the fact that we are this Farrah long,
09:19:35 that's a modifiable option and we all accept that.
09:19:38 I am thrilled to see this list of 27 items, at least,
09:19:44 that deal with the sustainability attributes, that
09:19:47 really are equivalent to LEED certification.
09:19:49 So I guess it's pretty much the same thing without the
09:19:52 title.
09:19:52 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Rawlings, since you are share,
09:19:59 just share the good news about the time frame for
09:20:01 getting going with the new museum.
09:20:04 >>> We are well into design development now.
09:20:07 We anticipate getting a guaranteed maximum price by
09:20:10 the end of November.
09:20:12 We would anticipate construction to begin in February
09:20:15 of next year, and completion in the summer, probably
09:20:18 July or August of 2009, and that's the schedule we are
09:20:22 on.
09:20:25 Thank you very much.
09:20:25 >>CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
09:20:34 >>> Good morning.
09:20:35 I'm C.J. Roberts, president of the Tampa Bay history
09:20:39 center. With me is George Howell, chairman of our

09:20:42 board.
09:20:42 Thank you for inviting us to be here today.
09:20:44 You are giving us an opportunity to talk about
09:20:46 something that's kind of near and dear to us.
09:20:49 Nearly three years ago, our intent was to design a
09:20:52 green building, a building that met green standards,
09:20:56 incorporating elements such as highly efficient HVAC
09:21:00 systems, regionally produced, recycled and/or low
09:21:03 emitting construction materials, and various water
09:21:06 efficiency systems.
09:21:08 As the design process evolved we determined we were
09:21:11 incorporating so many green elements that it was
09:21:15 actually possible for to us consider LEED and that was
09:21:17 very exciting.
09:21:19 One reason it was so exciting for us is because I
09:21:21 don't think you can separate the natural environment
09:21:24 from the cultural environment.
09:21:26 And we see ourselves as stewards of history but we
09:21:29 also see ourselves as stewards of our environment.
09:21:32 So last February, our board made the decision
09:21:35 unanimously to go ahead and pursue LEED certification
09:21:38 for this building.

09:21:39 And even though it would add about 2.5% to the cost of
09:21:44 our construction we felt it really met one of our core
09:21:47 values and was worth doing.
09:21:49 So we were raising funds privately to do that.
09:21:52 And we hope for one of many LEED certified buildings
09:21:55 to come in the future for Tampa.
09:21:58 I have with me a checklist that I'm happy to leave
09:22:01 with you all that outlines -- it's from the U.S. green
09:22:08 building council, and it outlines the point that we
09:22:12 are looking at for the LEED is certification process
09:22:15 at this point.
09:22:15 You will see three columns. The first column, those
09:22:18 are points we know we have going into this process.
09:22:20 You will see a second column with question marks,
09:22:23 points that we either hope to accrue or might accrue
09:22:27 during the process, and there will be a third column
09:22:29 with no.
09:22:30 You will see right out of the gait we anticipate
09:22:33 meeting at least the minimum threshold for LEED
09:22:35 certification, and the possibilities are there for us
09:22:38 to meet silver or beyond.
09:22:40 So we are pretty excited about that.

09:22:43 So I will leave these with you and be happy to answer
09:22:47 whatever questions.
09:22:52 Time frame, our construction management agreement will
09:22:55 go to the Board of County Commissioners for approval
09:22:57 next Thursday, and notice to proceed will be issued
09:23:01 hopefully immediately thereafter.
09:23:03 We anticipate substantial completion on the building
09:23:06 next fall, fall of 2008, with an opening on or around
09:23:10 the first of December of 2008.
09:23:13 So we are not only planning exhibits in a new building
09:23:15 but we are planning a big grand opening as well.
09:23:19 Lots of exciting times.
09:23:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Robertson.
09:23:24 I want to reemphasis -- recognize George Howell.
09:23:28 George, welcome back with us, and thank you for I
09:23:31 think the 20 years of dedication to this mission.
09:23:35 20 years that I know of.
09:23:38 Mr. Roberts, wonderful news, and we didn't even have
09:23:42 to twist your arm to do it so that's great.
09:23:45 The question I had relates to educational
09:23:48 opportunities.
09:23:49 Only, you are going to have a lot of young people

09:23:52 through the history museum for various purposes, and
09:23:58 will you be touting the green building aspect as part
09:24:02 of the mission?
09:24:03 >>> We will be doing that.
09:24:04 We will also be talking a lot about how the natural
09:24:06 environment relates to our history throughout all of
09:24:09 our exhibits so you will see the theme really strongly
09:24:11 woven throughout the entire exhibit experience.
09:24:13 But we do want to celebrate, educate.
09:24:15 We feel a certain responsibility in providing some
09:24:19 leadership in this area, to provide education.
09:24:22 So you will see that interpreted in our facility.
09:24:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions?
09:24:26 Thank you.
09:24:26 We appreciate that.
09:24:29 Item number 5.
09:24:31 Okay, one more?
09:24:31 I'm sorry.
09:24:37 >> Members of council, I'm president of the children's
09:24:41 museum council.
09:24:43 I would like to introduce the chairman of the board
09:24:45 and our architect with me here today.

09:24:48 Just like Mr. Roberts said, sustainability and
09:24:51 developing the green building does not just make sense
09:24:54 to us from an economics point of view, but also it's a
09:24:57 very important educational mission for us.
09:24:59 We will see thousands of children coming through the
09:25:01 museum and so it will be very important to get that
09:25:04 message to them as well.
09:25:05 We are in a position right now which is wonderful for
09:25:07 us to be right in the middle of the design, and the
09:25:11 concept of the building, we'll be announcing this very
09:25:14 shortly.
09:25:15 From the very out set of the process work and John
09:25:20 Curran, leaders of designing sustainable building,
09:25:26 actually just finishing Hillsborough County community
09:25:30 college, which they are going for gold certification,
09:25:33 always around introducing sustainability elements,
09:25:36 green elements to the building, and that's very much
09:25:38 going to go into the design development of the
09:25:40 children's museum of Tampa.
09:25:42 So I look forward to give you more updates, and really
09:25:45 get into the details of how our building will evolve
09:25:49 in that direction.

09:25:50 Our timetable for the development of the museum is we
09:25:54 are going to go into design development starting in
09:25:57 January or February, and we will start construction
09:26:00 mid to late summer of 2008 with an opening 12-2009.
09:26:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Najar, this is the first time
09:26:11 you have been to Tampa City Council.
09:26:13 It's great to see you and it's good news you are able
09:26:15 to incorporate the sustainable arm into your building.
09:26:20 >>> Thank you.
09:26:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Number 5.
09:26:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: On number 3 and 4, Ms. Miller, if
09:26:36 you could -- usually when I call you up, you cringe,
09:26:41 but you don't need to cringe on this.
09:26:42 I only have good words.
09:26:44 This relates to the green building committee and task
09:26:47 force that council directed me to work with the
09:26:51 administration on.
09:26:52 And I'm very, very pleased the mayor sent a memo that
09:26:56 Cindy and I will be working on this together over the
09:26:58 next six months.
09:26:59 And I look forward to that.
09:27:01 And I'm very pleased about the administration's

09:27:03 efforts and cooperation.
09:27:04 I look forward to working with you on that.
09:27:06 >>CINDY MILLER: Thank you.
09:27:09 Now I'll do number 5.
09:27:11 Cindy Miller, director growth management development
09:27:13 services for item number 5 which is addressing silk
09:27:17 oaks removed near Palma Ceia golf and country club.
09:27:21 There is a memo in your package or agenda which
09:27:24 clarifies, once we get the matter straightened out,
09:27:30 these are trees that were protected and they were on
09:27:33 private property, not the right-of-way.
09:27:35 So from that standpoint, really they were
09:27:39 appropriately handled by parks recreation department
09:27:42 as well as growth management department services.
09:27:44 I hope this memo clarifies the matter.
09:27:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The only question I had remaining,
09:27:49 the memo is very good.
09:27:50 Thank you, Dave, and Cindy, both on that.
09:27:53 The only question I had, it wasn't clear to me from
09:27:57 the memo, if there's protected trees on the
09:28:01 right-of-way, not grand trees, but protected trees on
09:28:04 the right-of-way, and then for some reason the city is

09:28:07 going to remove those, maybe for utility purposes,
09:28:12 maybe because of a complaint of the neighbors,
09:28:14 something like that, the memo seemed to indicate that
09:28:19 there would be notice to adjacent neighbors.
09:28:22 And I'm just wondering how that plays out.
09:28:28 >>> I know Kathy Becht is here, too.
09:28:31 She might be able to provide clarification.
09:28:34 >>> Good morning.
09:28:35 Kathy Becht, parks and recreation.
09:28:37 The notice is for property owners that are directly
09:28:39 adjacent to the affected right-of-way, via a door
09:28:43 hanger.
09:28:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And is that related to protected or
09:28:47 grand trees that are going to be removed from the
09:28:49 right-of-way?
09:28:50 >>> Yes, sir.
09:28:50 >> Is there any right of appeal, or is it just FYI?
09:28:56 >>> FYI.
09:28:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We'll think about that.
09:28:59 Thanks.
09:28:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
09:29:01 We now go to -- is there anyone in the public who

09:29:03 would like to ask for reconsideration on a legislative
09:29:05 matter?
09:29:09 We go to our audience portion.
09:29:10 Anyone in the public that would like to speak on any
09:29:12 item on the agenda not set for a public hearing.
09:29:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:29:19 Because some people came in later and they might not
09:29:21 realize that this is the time to talk about the sign
09:29:25 code, we need to share that.
09:29:28 >>> Is it time to talk about the sign code?
09:29:31 That isn't a public hearing?
09:29:32 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
09:29:33 It's not.
09:29:37 >>> I'm glad you told me that, it's not a public
09:29:39 hearing.
09:29:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Ms. Vizzi, if I can.
09:29:45 This being a legislative matter, the public hearing on
09:29:47 the item will take place in three weeks from today.
09:29:51 Normally it's two weeks.
09:29:52 But because of council break, the public hearing and
09:29:57 second reading will take place in three weeks.
09:30:00 But because it's on the agenda you are able to speak

09:30:03 to the today.
09:30:03 >>MARGARET VIZZI: Maybe we are going to have to get a
09:30:06 whole list of council's new procedures, R, because I
09:30:09 wasn't aware of that.
09:30:11 But the one thing that I did want to -- came up for
09:30:15 was number 6 regarding the discussion you had last
09:30:19 week, and I think as far as your appointments to the
09:30:22 VRB, T.H.A.N. wants to make very sure that we continue
09:30:27 to have neighborhood representation.
09:30:31 Some of the discussion I heard that kind of sounded
09:30:34 like anybody counsel or mayor who would be pointing,
09:30:38 could appoint just anyone, and T.H.A.N. just wants to
09:30:41 make sure that we have representation on the VRB.
09:30:49 The other issue, I am here for the sign code.
09:30:51 We worked for a long time and Rose Ferlita was here.
09:30:56 It was almost two years.
09:30:57 We got a lot of discussion.
09:30:58 We got a lot of input from the community.
09:31:01 We had two members of the sign industry on the
09:31:05 committee who gave us a lot of input, because some of
09:31:08 us had the idea of what we wanted.
09:31:11 But when they came in and showed us what we were

09:31:14 asking for, we realized.
09:31:20 So I just want to relay to council the input from a
09:31:24 lot of areas was put into that sign code that is
09:31:29 before you.
09:31:30 I know that there is a group that is concerned about
09:31:35 large developments and how this code would affect
09:31:39 them.
09:31:39 Well, if a mall comes in or big development comes in
09:31:46 as part of their PD they always have their signs on
09:31:49 there and council would have the opportunity at that
09:31:50 time to decide if it's not according to the code that
09:31:58 it's appropriate for development, and that also goes
09:32:00 for the VRB.
09:32:03 If someone would be adversely impacted then they can
09:32:06 go to the VRB.
09:32:07 And of course none of this would be accepted until
09:32:10 there would be new development, very important to
09:32:15 remember.
09:32:15 So I would encourage council to pass this on whatever
09:32:20 you are calling it, first reading, administrative
09:32:22 approval or whatever to move forward.
09:32:24 And I will be back then for the official public

09:32:28 hearing.
09:32:28 But I would encourage to you move forward with this.
09:32:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question for you.
09:32:37 Do you support the idea that if a use changes that the
09:32:42 sign needs to meet our codes?
09:32:45 >>MARGARET VIZZI: I think it should.
09:32:46 That's the only way we are really going to have the
09:32:50 change with in the way our city looks like, and that's
09:32:53 the main input from the council that was seated at
09:32:57 that time, and the directions that were given to us,
09:33:02 but over time, you know, the city would look better as
09:33:06 far as signs are concerned.
09:33:09 So, yes, we felt that it was important for change of
09:33:14 use, major use, not to change from one doctor to
09:33:19 another doctor or attorney to another attorney, but
09:33:22 use, yes.
09:33:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Next.
09:33:25 Mr. Miranda.
09:33:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: One other thing.
09:33:27 I want to make sure on the sign code, our snipe signs
09:33:32 or those little signs, are those included?
09:33:43 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.

09:33:45 I don't know if you want me to answer that now or wait
09:33:47 until I give my presentation on it.
09:33:48 But to answer your question, we didn't deal at all
09:33:51 with the snipe sign issue.
09:33:52 That is in a different part of the code as it relates
09:33:54 to signs in the right-of-way.
09:33:56 The only issue we did deal with are neighborhood
09:34:00 associations that advertise their meetings and we have
09:34:04 included those as allowable signs for that short
09:34:06 duration that they are up.
09:34:07 So that is really -- other than that, snipe signs in
09:34:15 that portion of the code have not been amended.
09:34:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a terrible head cold.
09:34:20 I can hardly hear the speaker because I can't hear too
09:34:22 well today.
09:34:23 I don't want to feel like I am doing something
09:34:26 somewhere and saying since those signs are on city
09:34:31 rights-of-way, technically speaking, that they are
09:34:33 allowable.
09:34:34 And I just -- that's one thing, it's not today, the
09:34:40 last 15 years I have felt the same way.
09:34:42 And I don't know if those signs -- because I couldn't

09:34:47 hear too well -- if they are going to be allowable.
09:34:49 I have a problem with changing any sign ordinance, or
09:34:55 omitting us from the sign ordinance.
09:34:58 >>> Snipe signs, signs in the right-of-way remain
09:35:00 illegal.
09:35:01 >> So you are telling me that signs that are electric
09:35:03 poles are illegal?
09:35:07 >>> It is illegal to have any signs in the
09:35:08 right-of-way unless they are a government sign, a sign
09:35:11 that the government has sanctioned.
09:35:14 We can put signs in our own right-of-way.
09:35:16 The only thing that we have changed is registered
09:35:20 neighborhood associations.
09:35:21 And I didn't use the term registered but registered
09:35:24 neighborhood associations using the right-of-way for
09:35:26 their signage.
09:35:27 But for signs of like say their neighborhood meetings
09:35:30 or for the signs that indicate what neighborhood, you
09:35:33 know, you have the Beach Park sign or you have the
09:35:35 signs that say Sunset Park, those would be considered
09:35:38 government signs.
09:35:39 Other than that, any other sign of a private entity

09:35:42 within the right-of-way is illegal today and will
09:35:45 remain illegal.
09:35:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
09:35:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: No.
09:35:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Go ahead, Mr. Naught.
09:35:56 >>MOSES KNOTT, JR.: I reside at 2902 East Ellicott
09:36:00 street three nights a week, and I just thank God for
09:36:03 his grace and his mercy.
09:36:05 And I thank God he gave me the opportunity to come to
09:36:09 this podium one more time, the sign footprints in the
09:36:15 sand.
09:36:15 I been coming to this podium a long, long time and I
09:36:19 thank God for it.
09:36:20 And I want to speak on this sign thing.
09:36:23 You know, day one, when this city get ready to pass an
09:36:31 ordinance, it started in black neighborhoods first.
09:36:38 But Dick Greco hit on this thing.
09:36:41 He went over there in our poor neighborhood and took
09:36:43 down them signs and told the people there to put a
09:36:46 sign behind the building.
09:36:48 But this here was about the most discriminating thing
09:36:52 and about the most racist thing I ever seen in my life

09:36:55 about this sign.
09:36:56 And, you know, I watched this deal.
09:37:01 This deal here like the bulldogs.
09:37:06 Everybody like bulldogs.
09:37:09 Like Michael Vick.
09:37:10 But the sin, though, that got a handful of peoples is
09:37:15 against this sign here thing, handful of people.
09:37:17 I told you all many, many times about this here.
09:37:20 You got a handful of people coming up with an idea and
09:37:23 they oppose it.
09:37:24 But I want to speak about what he's saying here,
09:37:29 what's illegal in a right-of-way.
09:37:30 Now, I waited for many, many months, couldn't sleep at
09:37:34 night waiting for you politicians to put some signs in
09:37:37 the middle of the road.
09:37:38 And finally, election time rolls around, people come
09:37:41 told me, they got them signs all over 40th Street,
09:37:45 they got thousands of signs in the middle of the road.
09:37:47 I made a special trip downtown to the code enforcement
09:37:50 and said, I want these signs be removed.
09:37:53 And some of my favorite politician signs are there but
09:37:56 I don't care, sometimes when you change the law, you

09:37:58 got to get the good to get to the bad.
09:38:01 But what I am going to say, though, as soon as they
09:38:06 put the sign out, code enforcement told me, oh, yeah,
09:38:09 Mr. Knott, you own.
09:38:11 I was going to get a pickup truck and pick up all
09:38:14 these signs and, you know, when you first pass this
09:38:19 sign.
09:38:20 They paid a lady with the code enforcement, bought a
09:38:23 brand new pickup truck and paid her to go around every
09:38:26 Thursday, and, you know, I can see in the poor part of
09:38:32 town, but in the rich part of town taking people's
09:38:36 signs up, now, and throw them away, and real estate --
09:38:41 I think there's a couple of lawsuits blood pressure
09:38:42 real estate signs.
09:38:43 That thing been pushed hard.
09:38:46 And I tell you from the get-go, I think you are
09:38:50 beating all the leaves off the bush on this thing
09:38:52 right here.
09:38:53 But I want to say, I watch TV all over the world.
09:39:01 Every big city I seen, they got signs up.
09:39:04 You go to Las Vegas, they got signs.
09:39:06 In Chicago, New York signs.

09:39:09 Everywhere.
09:39:09 Now this city is going to get big here.
09:39:13 I go to Ybor City, and look at what happened down here
09:39:16 in the Harborside, and it scared me.
09:39:20 How in the world are you going to create all this big
09:39:22 stuff with no signs?
09:39:23 People come from all over the world.
09:39:25 How are they supposed to know where they are going at?
09:39:29 I think that's beating the bush.
09:39:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Knott.
09:39:46 >>> Paul Taylor, Thomas sign company, speaking on the
09:39:49 sign code.
09:39:50 I would like to pass these things out, if I may.
09:40:05 >>GWEN MILLER: It's on already.
09:40:09 >>> It's on.
09:40:09 Okay.
09:40:12 This is an example of the existing legally permitted
09:40:15 sign, perfect condition, perfect maintenance on it.
09:40:21 It's legal under the present code.
09:40:24 Should this new proposed code come into effect, a
09:40:28 drastic reduction to every business owner in the City
09:40:30 of Tampa, would be similar to the next picture.

09:40:40 >> Would you push that up a little bit?
09:40:42 >> I'm sorry.
09:40:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:40:46 >>> The proposed sign code requires a 5-foot height.
09:40:51 This particular business owner, or this property
09:40:53 owner, if the sign code was passed as is proposed, the
09:40:59 sign would be five feet and literally be put on the
09:41:03 ground or something similar to that.
09:41:06 You cannot see this type of sign, any car pulls beside
09:41:12 it, it will be immediately blocked.
09:41:15 I want to make an important point.
09:41:17 I attended the sign workshop.
09:41:19 Julia Cole was asked if citizens were calling in
09:41:24 complaining about the sign code.
09:41:25 She said, in fact, the citizens did not phone in
09:41:30 complaints about business signs.
09:41:31 So my question is, if citizens are not complaining,
09:41:35 why do we have this overly restricted sign code to be
09:41:39 considered?
09:41:42 This sign code if implemented will create a hardship
09:41:44 on law abiding businesses, and the city needs to
09:41:50 implement the present code enforcement for their

09:41:53 present code to clean up illegal signs.
09:41:55 If you go ahead and clean up illegal signs most of
09:41:58 your clutter will be gone.
09:42:01 Proposed new sign code drastically restricting will
09:42:06 cause hardship to law abiding business owners, and
09:42:11 remove an estimated 75% of the signs in the City of
09:42:14 Tampa.
09:42:19 No signs in the City of Tampa over 50 square feet in
09:42:21 size and greater than 5 feet in height.
09:42:25 Long and effect punish the business community that
09:42:29 have legal well maintained business signs forcing the
09:42:32 company to remove the signs and then forcing them to
09:42:34 pay for new signs on top of that.
09:42:36 The new signs would be not functional because the
09:42:40 legible message could not really be seen because of
09:42:44 positions and placement.
09:42:45 When you have shopping centers, shopping centers will
09:42:48 not be allowed or not permitted to effectively
09:42:52 advertise their tenants.
09:42:55 There are comments made that it can go through
09:42:57 developmental review, and shopping centers can ask for
09:43:01 at that point in time City Council.

09:43:03 City Council has a lot of important things to do other
09:43:05 than approving signs for shopping centers and such.
09:43:12 In the past --
09:43:18 (Bell sounds).
09:43:18 I guess that's it.
09:43:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Time is up, yes.
09:43:21 >>> The last comment, I did submit a middle ground
09:43:26 sign code proposal to adopt something similar to
09:43:29 Pinellas County code.
09:43:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
09:43:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have a question to our legal.
09:43:35 Thank you for your comments, sir.
09:43:47 Julia, it's always been my understanding that there's
09:43:50 grandfathering for existing signs.
09:43:51 So I don't want us to be I'm sure unintentionally
09:43:58 misled into thinking existing signs will be taken
09:44:01 down.
09:44:01 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:44:03 It does not include any amortization period, with the
09:44:05 exception when the signs -- if you have a sign today
09:44:10 and you don't do anything with your business, downtown
09:44:12 make a change in your business which would trigger a

09:44:14 new sign, then you can keep your sign in perpetuity.
09:44:17 It is a legal nonconforming sign under the way this
09:44:20 code reads.
09:44:22 >> So I'm not exactly sure about this 75%.
09:44:30 Then the other comment I would make or question, I
09:44:32 have a question to the gentleman.
09:44:33 Thank you, Julia.
09:44:39 I have been to places within the State of Florida as
09:44:45 well as elsewhere, but like Longboat Key, for example.
09:44:49 Longboat Key, have you been down there?
09:44:51 >>> Yes, sir.
09:44:52 Stayed there years ago.
09:44:54 >> Longboat Key, if you drive down there, one thing
09:44:56 that really jumps out at you is the fact that the
09:45:00 signs are not right up against the road, that they are
09:45:04 low, that they are small, and as a result you have a
09:45:08 lot, I think, more aesthetically appealing community.
09:45:11 And I would guess, although I didn't participate in
09:45:13 the sign committee, that perhaps that was the ultimate
09:45:16 goal of the sign committee, in tempering some of these
09:45:22 signs in terms of height and size to eventually, you
09:45:25 know, 20, 30 years from now, make our city a lot

09:45:29 prettier by having them further away from the road,
09:45:33 smaller. Anyway, so my question is, have you been to
09:45:36 places like Longboat Key?
09:45:38 And they are doing it.
09:45:40 And obviously their businesses survive and thrive.
09:45:46 >>> My comments are that Longboat Key is mostly a
09:45:48 residential area, than people staying in hotels and
09:45:54 that type of thing.
09:45:55 Tampa is a business town and I thank God that Tampa is
09:45:57 a business town, because it's economically strong
09:46:00 here.
09:46:00 We do have methods in place right now, the taller
09:46:03 signs are only allowed on arterials, such as Dale
09:46:06 Mabry Highway, Hillsborough Avenue, et cetera.
09:46:10 The collector streets have Heights, limitations, I
09:46:16 think, 15 feet or 18 feet, something like that.
09:46:18 So it is kind of already in place now, whereas the
09:46:21 most traveled arterials are allowed the larger signs,
09:46:26 which is appropriate.
09:46:26 And in the lesser traveled roads have the lower signs,
09:46:30 et cetera.
09:46:32 Our zoning separates our residential from our business

09:46:35 community, and our business community is separated
09:46:38 from the residential.
09:46:40 So there are areas, Westin, Florida, for instance, we
09:46:45 discussed at one time.
09:46:46 That is basically residential area.
09:46:49 There are a few businesses thrown in just to service
09:46:52 them.
09:46:53 A few banks.
09:46:53 A few convenience stores, et cetera.
09:46:56 But Tampa is a business town.
09:46:57 And the folks that I represent, Bank of America,
09:47:01 Publix, Boston companies, you name it, it's in your
09:47:09 packet, are against this.
09:47:10 It's too drastic too, radical.
09:47:12 New signs, if they are implemented, would be
09:47:15 nonfunctional.
09:47:16 This is a destination Tampa.
09:47:17 A lot of people don't know where they are going.
09:47:19 They don't know where goods and services are.
09:47:21 And without being able to see them, there's going to
09:47:24 be a lot of rubber necking, a lot of rear-end
09:47:26 collisions, et cetera.

09:47:27 It's really true.
09:47:29 You need to be able to find goods and services.
09:47:32 Thank you very much.
09:47:32 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Your company installed the sign
09:47:37 that's up on Bruce B. Downs Boulevard where B.J.s is
09:47:42 at?
09:47:43 >>> Yes, sir.
09:47:44 >>
09:47:45 >>: Would that sign conform to the new regulations?
09:47:47 >>> No, sir.
09:47:48 It would not be allowed at all.
09:47:51 >> Well, as a businessman myself, when you're paying
09:47:55 12, 13, $14,000 a month for rent for a business, you
09:47:59 need to attract.
09:48:00 I know we are in an overlay district in the New Tampa
09:48:04 area.
09:48:05 >>> Yes, sir.
09:48:06 >> And it's very difficult.
09:48:07 And constantly every day there are new businesses
09:48:10 opening, and there's more competition.
09:48:13 I can't see where we are going to put the people who
09:48:15 are paying these high rents and the amount of revenue

09:48:19 that comes out of the shopping center like that
09:48:23 particular one where your sign is at, and I just found
09:48:27 out yesterday, I see a bulldozer there, so I called up
09:48:30 Mr. Warren and asked him, what are you putting there?
09:48:34 A regions bank going in on the corner across from
09:48:37 Lowes?
09:48:38 And a CVS.
09:48:40 Of course they are going to have exposure because they
09:48:41 are right next to the road.
09:48:43 But I can't see hampering a business by not allowing
09:48:50 them.
09:48:50 You showed a sign there of a new regulation, I think
09:48:53 was five feet.
09:48:54 One of the pictures you showed.
09:48:57 >>> Yes, sir.
09:48:57 >> Now there's a car parked next to it.
09:48:59 >>> Yes, sir.
09:49:00 >> If that car was parked in front of that sign, there
09:49:03 would be no visibility.
09:49:05 >>> That's absolutely correct, sir.
09:49:07 >> I know we have a sign in my shopping center where
09:49:09 I'm at.

09:49:10 And some merchants can't get on there.
09:49:14 Fortunately, I negotiated a contract.
09:49:16 I'm on there forever on both sides, because I have
09:49:19 been there 20 years.
09:49:20 >>> Yes, sir.
09:49:22 >> We can't hamper a business.
09:49:24 I can see some modifications.
09:49:26 The one that you presented.
09:49:27 I could probably support that.
09:49:29 Thank you.
09:49:31 >>> Thank you very much.
09:49:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just wanted to comment.
09:49:35 I don't have a question of you, sir.
09:49:37 I just wanted to comment in terms of citizens
09:49:39 providing feedback.
09:49:40 I hear a lot from citizens that they think Tampa is
09:49:43 really tacky with signs, and they want them addressed.
09:49:46 I was thrilled that Rose Ferlita took the lead of this
09:49:49 sign committee because she, as a small business owner
09:49:54 herself, felt she would bring the small business owner
09:49:57 perspective to this.
09:49:58 But in terms of hearing from the public I can say as

09:50:00 an elected official that's been around for awhile, I
09:50:02 have heard a lot from citizens about it.
09:50:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I guess the question I have in terms
09:50:08 of sign code, now the gentleman said, Mr. Taylor said,
09:50:17 attorney, could you speak to that?
09:50:19 Number two, what kind of analysis has been done?
09:50:22 Look at Hillsborough County code, and Pinellas,
09:50:25 Clearwater, surrounding areas.
09:50:29 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:50:33 I was going to speak to you when this item came up to
09:50:35 go through that.
09:50:36 I can do that now or we can wait to finish the agenda
09:50:38 and public comment.
09:50:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's wait.
09:50:48 >>> Al Steenson, 4100, representing Gandy civic
09:50:56 association.
09:50:57 Good morning.
09:50:57 I came here this morning to talk about one specific
09:50:59 issue regarding the sign ordinance.
09:51:03 But Ms. Vizzi talked on something, and since her three
09:51:06 minutes is up I thought I would just carry it forward
09:51:08 just a little briefly.

09:51:10 The proliferation of these ugly signs in Tampa has
09:51:14 been a subject of T.H.A.N. for many, many, many
09:51:17 meetings.
09:51:18 A and you will you have to do is drive down some of
09:51:20 these streets and you see them.
09:51:22 They are just piled one on top of the other, with
09:51:24 no -- and aesthetically, I realize that business has
09:51:30 to promote itself, but does it have to promote itself
09:51:33 in such a nonaesthetically pleasing manner?
09:51:37 Okay.
09:51:37 The other issue that I wanted to touch on, and Mr.
09:51:40 Dingfelder, I wanted to thank you by, I guess, my
09:51:45 insistence about the neighborhood signs.
09:51:48 We are just a small, nonprofit neighborhood
09:51:51 association, and over a period of months we have lost
09:51:59 $170 worth of signs.
09:52:00 Where they went I have no clue.
09:52:02 Code enforcement tells me they haven't picked them up.
09:52:05 Green cities people say they may have but they don't
09:52:07 know where they are.
09:52:08 And they could have been picked up by neighbors that
09:52:10 just don't like neighborhood signs.

09:52:12 They may have something against the Gandy civic
09:52:14 association.
09:52:14 I don't know.
09:52:16 The other issue, and I don't know whether there's a
09:52:22 time frame attached to. This our policy is, I have
09:52:24 our people put them out, probably the Wednesday before
09:52:27 the meeting, and I try very hard to make sure they are
09:52:33 picked up by Tuesday morning or Wednesday.
09:52:36 So I don't know whether there's a time frame attached
09:52:39 to these: I don't propose that they stay up
09:52:42 permanently, because members bought the signs and put
09:52:51 them in their front yards.
09:52:52 I go out and put them in various areas around our
09:52:55 neighborhood where our neighborhood signs are, and
09:53:00 then I try to go back and pick them up.
09:53:03 The other thing I would like to address, is this going
09:53:05 to reflect on the right-of-way on those roads and
09:53:09 streets within the city that are not owned by the
09:53:12 city?
09:53:13 And I mean Gandy Boulevard, Dale Mabry, state highway,
09:53:17 Nebraska Avenue, Kennedy Boulevard, 40th Street,
09:53:20 50th street.

09:53:22 Right down the middle of my neighborhood.
09:53:23 If I put one of my neighborhood signs out in the
09:53:27 meeting strip of Dale Mabry, is it going to be illegal
09:53:32 and is D.O.T. going to pick it up and cost me another
09:53:35 $10?
09:53:36 So I would like to have that I shall addressed.
09:53:39 I haven't talked to anybody from McKinley drive but
09:53:44 that's an item I would like to see addressed.
09:53:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:53:50 Next.
09:53:58 >>RON ROTELLA: Member of the sign committee.
09:54:16 Some council members will recall four years ago we
09:54:20 brought this particular picture to City Council and
09:54:22 stated that no city in America should look like this.
09:54:29 At that time City Council was considering minor
09:54:31 amendments to the sign code. The council appointed a
09:54:33 committee.
09:54:34 We had representatives from the sign industry.
09:54:36 We had businesses involved.
09:54:37 And we had residents on the sign committee.
09:54:40 And what we learned was the City of Tampa, unlike its
09:54:45 surrounding jurisdictions, unlike Hillsborough County,

09:54:49 that had major rewrites to their code, our code was
09:54:53 overly generous in both height and size of signs.
09:54:57 And believe me, there was no intention whatsoever to
09:55:02 restrict businesses for appropriate advertising for
09:55:06 their businesses.
09:55:07 The intent was that no city in America should look
09:55:11 like this.
09:55:12 The proliferation of signs on all the major arterials
09:55:16 and collectors make this city ugly compared to other
09:55:19 cities in the state and other cities around the
09:55:22 country.
09:55:23 But we really paid attention to what surrounding
09:55:27 jurisdictions had accomplished for their sign code.
09:55:31 The other comment I want to make is that we think a
09:55:35 very important provision of the sign ordinance is the
09:55:37 change in use provision.
09:55:39 We struggled with amortization, and most cities have
09:55:42 put amortization schedules in their sign code, ended
09:55:45 up with lawsuits and legal challenges, in a very
09:55:52 costly manner trying to improve their city.
09:55:54 We felt that it was appropriate that unless we wanted
09:55:57 to leave these signs here forever that when there was

09:56:00 a change in use in the business, then the business
09:56:03 would have to comply with the new sign code.
09:56:06 And without that provision, the new signs will stay
09:56:09 here forever.
09:56:10 And, by the way, I'm not pointing fingers at somebody
09:56:13 else's backyard.
09:56:15 This is the Westshore business district.
09:56:20 But it could be any street in Tampa.
09:56:21 So we would urge City Council to support the
09:56:26 recommendations of the sign committee.
09:56:28 I think it was a pretty diverse group.
09:56:30 We had the sign industry well represented and we
09:56:33 pretty much agreed on the aspects of the code.
09:56:38 The other person I want to thank, Rose is not here.
09:56:43 She swapped.
09:56:45 She's on county commission.
09:56:46 And Tom is here.
09:56:48 But Rose spent a lot of time on this.
09:56:50 The other person I want to thank is Julia Cole because
09:56:53 she gave this whole direction and structure and did a
09:56:55 lot of research, and I think we have a really good
09:56:59 ordinance before you.

09:57:01 Thanks for your participation.
09:57:03 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
09:57:05 We now go to item number 8.
09:57:08 Julia Cole.
09:57:13 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:57:16 Prior to the meeting I gave you a package of
09:57:18 information in which I provided to you a memorandum,
09:57:21 and a chart, in which we outline what the proposed
09:57:25 recommendations are on the ordinance.
09:57:27 And just to direct to Mr. Scott's question, I thought
09:57:32 it was a fair question because when we started through
09:57:35 the process of the sign committee and trying to decide
09:57:37 what we should do with our sign code, and we have a
09:57:40 sign code that's been around for a long time, and it
09:57:42 has allowability for signage, very large, 300 feet of
09:57:49 allowability for that.
09:57:50 So before we even decided where we should go, we took
09:57:54 a look at what other jurisdictions said, and I
09:57:57 provided you a copy of a chart that I did in which I
09:58:01 go through the existing City of Tampa sign code, what
09:58:05 the proposals are, Hillsborough County, Broward
09:58:08 County, Clearwater, St. Petersburg, and Pinellas

09:58:11 County.
09:58:14 And quite frankly, I had the opportunity in
09:58:18 Hillsborough County when I started through the process
09:58:19 of amending the sign code over there, and that did
09:58:22 weigh pretty heavily in our thought process, and it's
09:58:25 an adjoining jurisdiction, having just gone through
09:58:28 this process, and so in looking at it, we really did
09:58:31 look to see what Hillsborough County did, and really
09:58:33 tried as much as we could from that, allowability that
09:58:38 Hillsborough County did, and Hillsborough County went
09:58:39 also from a pretty extreme amount of signage to 50
09:58:44 square feet per sign space. The only thing we did do
09:58:47 a little different from the county was the size, the
09:58:50 free standing signs.
09:58:52 What we decided in looking at other jurisdictions, and
09:58:55 also with some of the expertise on our sign committee,
09:58:59 to do something a little different, and what we have
09:59:01 created is what they call canyon effect.
09:59:04 What that means is the height of your sign, the is
09:59:09 lower the closer you are to the right-of-way and goes
09:59:11 up the farther you are away so it starts at ten feet
09:59:14 and as you move southward it goes to a height of 20

09:59:17 feet.
09:59:17 The intent was doing it in that manner was you don't
09:59:21 have the straight line of signs as you go through and
09:59:24 drive down the streets, that you actually have a
09:59:26 little bit of a canyon effect, and that gives
09:59:28 everybody the right to have a sign closer that's more
09:59:31 visible or sign farther away that's more visible.
09:59:34 The other thing we did that was also similar to the
09:59:36 county is we tried to create some form of design for
09:59:39 the sign so you no longer have these poles, with big
09:59:42 signs on top of it.
09:59:44 And that was really the premise.
09:59:46 We looked at what we had.
09:59:48 We looked at what other jurisdictions did.
09:59:50 We tried to figure out how to make signs that actually
09:59:52 look good, and signs that actually would enhance what
09:59:57 we are trying to accomplish within the city.
10:00:00 One of the other things we did to help that, and I
10:00:03 think that there is -- it's a little misleading
10:00:05 because we do have right now a 300 square foot sign
10:00:08 allowability, but the way we measure it today it
10:00:14 really encourages us to have larger letters and

10:00:16 smaller signs.
10:00:17 You just think of that small background, large
10:00:20 letters.
10:00:21 We have changed the way that we are calculating it so
10:00:23 that what you are encouraging is a smaller sign face
10:00:28 but a larger amount of design space around it.
10:00:30 So those were really the considerations that we have
10:00:33 looked at when we were going through this process.
10:00:38 I had conversations with Mr. Keller.
10:00:40 Mr. Keller brought conversations to the table.
10:00:41 But ultimately what City Council needs to decide is
10:00:43 whether or not this reduction -- and it's a pretty
10:00:46 drastic reduction for 50 square feet per sign face, is
10:00:49 appropriate or whether or not it would be more
10:00:51 appropriate to do what they did in St. Pete or
10:00:53 Pinellas County, which is 150 square feet per sign
10:00:59 face, and proximity to Hillsborough County, it seems
10:01:02 to be very successful there.
10:01:04 I understand that there have not been a lot of
10:01:06 complaints from business owners that area.
10:01:08 We did have two members of the sign code, of the sign
10:01:11 committee, that are in the sign business and they were

10:01:13 able to let everybody know how that was working in
10:01:16 Hillsborough County, and it seemed to be working well.
10:01:19 The other issue that I think we heard a lot about is
10:01:22 this idea of how do we make people change and the
10:01:25 timing of when people change.
10:01:27 As we said earlier we did not adopt an amortization
10:01:30 period.
10:01:30 Amortizations, if you don't know what that means, we
10:01:33 give property owners a certain amount of time to have
10:01:35 their sign in place and then they have to replace it
10:01:38 five or seven years or something like that.
10:01:39 In my experience, in reviewing the law on the matter,
10:01:46 amortizations don't work, become expensive and hard to
10:01:49 monitor.
10:01:50 So in keeping with what Hillsborough County did, we
10:01:52 created another process by which when you create
10:01:57 changes at that to your property at that point in
10:02:01 time, when you are updating your property, to update
10:02:04 your sign, and I think that's a better way to monitor
10:02:07 it to make sure that people are coming up to code at
10:02:11 that time, versus a certain time limit and having to
10:02:16 spend new resources, because ultimately it does cost a

10:02:19 lot of money in the resources to go forward to get the
10:02:23 sign code enforced.
10:02:28 There are other issues that were raised and I'll go
10:02:30 through them quickly and we are available for other
10:02:32 questions and we can go and speak if B this if
10:02:35 necessary.
10:02:35 One of the issues that the sign committee looked at
10:02:37 was the size of window signs.
10:02:39 When I say window signs, the windows of businesses
10:02:44 when you go into that.
10:02:48 You can have 25% of your window space for window
10:02:52 signs.
10:02:52 (Bell sounds).
10:02:53 We have reduced that to five square feet. That is a
10:02:56 drastic reduction, that there was too much window sign
10:03:00 allowed today.
10:03:00 And like I said, that's a very drastic reduction, and
10:03:04 that's what we are proposing to you today.
10:03:06 That is the only place we do have an amortization
10:03:08 period, because there's not a lot of cost involved.
10:03:15 We are requiring you to take it down in a year.
10:03:17 One of the larger issues that came up is the

10:03:21 electronic sign issue.
10:03:23 And I have spoken with you all about that before and I
10:03:25 think we have talked about it in many contexts.
10:03:27 The way our code stands today, it's really unclear
10:03:30 whether or not you can have electronic signs or not.
10:03:32 So there has been a policy in place that you can have
10:03:35 electronic sign.
10:03:37 And I'm talking about the LCD sign.
10:03:39 Don't change more than once in a 24-hour period.
10:03:42 I'm recommending to you in this case that you at the
10:03:44 very minimum codify that issue.
10:03:46 Or tell me you don't want any electronic signs.
10:03:50 By codifying it, right now we are having a very hard
10:03:53 time with enforcement because it's really been a
10:03:56 policy where we are letting you put up these signs,
10:03:59 and that we are telling you by policy they can't
10:04:01 change more than once in a 24-hour period.
10:04:04 So I think we need to either codify it or make a
10:04:07 decision as a city that we want no electronic signs in
10:04:10 the city.
10:04:11 So that's in front of you today to go ahead, and at
10:04:14 the very minimum codify that.

10:04:16 I will tell you that the way this code is written, if
10:04:18 somebody can show a hardship as to why they need
10:04:22 electronic sign that goes more than once in a 24-hour
10:04:26 period, as Ms. Vizzi was talking about, if you need
10:04:29 something different you have the right to appeal it as
10:04:32 a PD or part of a variance review process.
10:04:34 So I think at the very minimum, it codifies what we
10:04:37 are currently doing.
10:04:39 Some of the other issues that were pretty significant
10:04:43 issues in the sign committee were the temporary banner
10:04:46 signs.
10:04:47 We had lots of different issues come up with folks
10:04:50 putting up temporary banner signs and what it means to
10:04:53 be temporary.
10:04:55 Limits to temporary banners.
10:04:58 It also requires that you get a permit.
10:05:00 And by having permanent pull permits we can actually
10:05:04 track the time.
10:05:05 The rest of the issues are set out.
10:05:08 Really a lot of them are housekeeping issues.
10:05:10 One of the other issues that came up a lot was signs
10:05:14 and umbrellas.

10:05:15 So we have allowability, if you have an umbrella and
10:05:23 different kind of issues.
10:05:24 The issue that you Mr. Steenson brought up, that
10:05:27 allows for neighborhood associations to have signs,
10:05:33 within the rights-of-way.
10:05:34 He made a very good suggestion, to add in this term
10:05:37 registered neighborhood association.
10:05:39 I thought that was a very good suggestion.
10:05:40 I am prepared to go ahead and make that change if,
10:05:44 that you go ahead and if you want to adopt -- if you
10:05:48 just make that suggestion as part of your motion, I'll
10:05:51 go ahead and make that change and bring that back to
10:05:53 you.
10:05:56 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Ms. Cole, on your electronic
10:05:59 signs, a gas station on Cross Creek Boulevard just put
10:06:03 one of those up and you say you cannot change that
10:06:06 other than every 24 hours, correct?
10:06:08 >>> The way it is today, that's been per policy and
10:06:12 there's been no code provision that you can hang your
10:06:14 hat on, if they are doing it more than once in a
10:06:16 24-hour period.
10:06:18 So we need to codify something.

10:06:20 And, therefore, if something does move more than once
10:06:23 in a 24-hour period code enforcement would then be
10:06:26 able to have a code provision that they would be
10:06:28 violating.
10:06:28 >> Because I think what you are presenting here is a
10:06:30 lot of legal questions for those gas stations.
10:06:34 I have seen gas go up and down twice in one day.
10:06:37 So if you have something up there for $2.67 and some
10:06:41 guy pulls in to get gas and he's going to pay $2.72,
10:06:47 then you have got a legal problem with the gas
10:06:49 station.
10:06:49 And I think you need to modify that, because you are
10:06:53 presenting problems for the owner of that gas station.
10:06:57 That's false advertising.
10:07:00 >>> My suggestion on that would be right now, if we
10:07:02 got this provision the way it is today, it would
10:07:07 require then gas stations to either use the changeable
10:07:12 copy signs that they manually do, which that is
10:07:15 allowed today, there's no question about that and they
10:07:16 can change that as much as they need to.
10:07:18 Or they would have to get a variance to allow a
10:07:25 difference of when they have the change of their copy.

10:07:27 We cannot create an exemption just for gas stations.
10:07:30 That would not be legally supportable.
10:07:32 Then the other option would be that you change the 24
10:07:35 hours down to 12 hours or some other integral.
10:07:37 That would be within your authority.
10:07:39 So that's really where you would have to go on that
10:07:41 issue.
10:07:44 >> Because the electronic signs as you see on 275,
10:07:47 they are becoming the wave of the future.
10:07:49 And a lot of electronic signs don't only post the
10:07:52 price of gas, there's a lot of other things on there.
10:07:56 So we have to be careful that we don't hamper these
10:07:58 businesses.
10:07:59 If we want businesses to come into the City of Tampa,
10:08:02 we can't be putting restrictions where they are not
10:08:05 going to be able to show their wares.
10:08:09 >>> And I think it's important to note and I have said
10:08:11 this in previous conversation busy this that there was
10:08:13 not consensus on the electronic signs.
10:08:15 That is an issue that remains outstanding.
10:08:18 It is, however, my suggestion that we at a minimum
10:08:24 codify what we are doing.

10:08:26 We could revisit that issue as time goes on, or we can
10:08:30 hold that issue out.
10:08:32 But I really feel very strongly that we need some
10:08:37 modification of that issue within the code as soon as
10:08:41 possible, because it really is creating an enforcement
10:08:43 nightmare.
10:08:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let's talk about the electronic
10:08:51 signs as long as we are there.
10:08:52 And Ms. Saul-Sena, I'll direct this to you because I
10:08:54 know you have spoken to it in the past.
10:08:59 I don't really understand what the difference is, if
10:09:02 somebody has a message that, let's say, changes every
10:09:06 five minutes, because five minutes later, I'm not
10:09:09 going to be there.
10:09:10 I'm driving down the road.
10:09:12 I see the thing, whatever it says, you know, potato
10:09:16 chips 59 cents.
10:09:17 That would be nice.
10:09:19 A dollar 59.
10:09:21 And I drive by and I keep going.
10:09:23 And offensive minutes later if it changes, I don't
10:09:25 know why it makes a difference.

10:09:27 So if you can explain.
10:09:29 I know you have objected to it in the past.
10:09:31 Now, the other question I have, Julia, is right now,
10:09:36 if it's scrolling, if the messages were scrolling, and
10:09:39 that sort of thing, but they are scrolling
10:09:41 consistently, so, in other words, it just keeps on
10:09:45 rolling by, and then it goes back into the same cycle.
10:09:50 How does our proposed code speak to that?
10:09:54 >>> That would be considered an activated sign.
10:09:56 The signs that are moving is what makes it activated.
10:10:01 >> Do we allow that?
10:10:02 >>> No. That is prohibited today.
10:10:04 There is no change to that.
10:10:07 Just so you understand, what has happened is we have a
10:10:09 provision that we talked about and prohibit activated
10:10:13 signs.
10:10:13 We have a provision in a that allows changeable copy
10:10:16 signs. The reason that was put in place, I'm
10:10:18 presuming, when this is done, which is some time ago,
10:10:20 is for gas stations so that they can manually go up
10:10:23 there and change the signs, you know, so back in those
10:10:28 days.

10:10:29 In a sense, they aren't conflicting at the time but
10:10:32 once you change technology, you did have a conflict.
10:10:35 What is a changeable copy sign versus an activated
10:10:40 sign?
10:10:40 So as a matter of policy -- and I think this is done
10:10:47 on the advice of the city attorney's office some time
10:10:51 back, was to allow you to have a sign that changes
10:10:56 copy via electronic means so long as we didn't have
10:11:00 them more than once in a 24-hour period.
10:11:02 So that's how we dealt with it.
10:11:04 And the way we would be dealing with it is defining a
10:11:07 changeable copy sign as once in a 24-hour period.
10:11:10 If it gets to the point of being a constant motion,
10:11:12 which is how an activated sign is defined, you would
10:11:16 be moving into that realm.
10:11:18 And it's a really hard thing to codify because you are
10:11:21 dealing with technology today that has really never
10:11:25 existed when these types of codes were written.
10:11:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Now we have the discretion,
10:11:30 obviously we write the codes, we have the discretion
10:11:32 to change that provision.
10:11:34 Right now, it says 24 hours but we can make it five

10:11:37 minutes or we can make it one hour, whatever we want.
10:11:40 So when we get in that point of discussion let's
10:11:43 remember that.
10:11:43 Let's get to some of the comments that we heard
10:11:45 earlier today.
10:11:46 If everybody looks at the proposed ordinance, on page
10:11:49 1 under the where is, I think it's extremely important
10:11:52 to emphasize -- and I know Julia drafted this -- to
10:11:56 emphasize a couple of things.
10:11:58 For one thing, the purpose of this was to decrease
10:12:02 visual sign clutter.
10:12:04 Okay.
10:12:04 And I think we all know, because we have all been in
10:12:07 this city our whole lives or much of our whole lives,
10:12:10 that the example that Mr. Rotella showed, which is
10:12:13 Kennedy Boulevard, we can find this on so many
10:12:20 different streets and Boulevard as cross our community
10:12:22 and it really is visual sign clutter, and to me it's
10:12:25 pretty ugly, and it's unfortunate because Kennedy
10:12:27 Boulevard, you arrive at the airport, typically you
10:12:31 might end up on Kennedy Boulevard.
10:12:33 Or Dale Mabry or what have you.

10:12:35 This is the presentation that our city makes.
10:12:37 I find it very ironic that we are now spending with
10:12:42 the D.O.T. millions and millions of dollars during our
10:12:47 medians, fixing up our medians on Kennedy and Dale
10:12:50 Mabry and memorial putting in plants.
10:12:52 That's lovely in the middle of the road.
10:12:53 Then on either side of the road it looks like you know
10:12:55 what.
10:12:57 So, anyway, I just want to emphasize that's what this
10:13:00 is about, is to reduce visual sign clutter.
10:13:04 And that's where it speaks to who participate in this
10:13:08 process.
10:13:10 Industry, citizens advocate, attorneys, business
10:13:12 leaders, all met together with Julia and staff, Gloria
10:13:16 I think was a big part of this -- thank you, Gloria
10:13:19 and Cathy -- Julia, how many hours and how many
10:13:25 meetings did that sign code meet and for how many
10:13:27 years?
10:13:35 >> We met at least an hour and a half to two hours
10:13:37 every two to four weeks and the time frame, I wasn't
10:13:40 there when it started on the sign committee.
10:13:43 My daughter is going to be two in November.

10:13:46 If that gives some kind of contact of how long we were
10:13:49 meeting.
10:13:49 >> And, Tom, what you were saying, in the back yum
10:13:57 material you speak to looking at other jurisdictions,
10:13:59 the sign code committee looked at all the
10:14:03 jurisdictions including Hillsborough County in detail,
10:14:05 right?
10:14:07 >>JULIA COLE: Absolutely in detail.
10:14:09 And chart that I created, charts, and I'm really sorry
10:14:12 that Bob isn't here today and hopefully he'll come for
10:14:14 second reading.
10:14:16 He owns a sign business and he spent hours going to
10:14:19 different jurisdictions, calling different
10:14:21 jurisdictions, and creating an idea of what every
10:14:25 other jurisdiction is doing as well.
10:14:26 So it's a really significant joint operation and
10:14:30 before we decided what we wanted to recommend, we
10:14:33 wanted to see what other people were doing.
10:14:35 And we are pretty well in line in some jurisdictions,
10:14:38 we are more heavy handed and other jurisdictions were
10:14:41 less heavy handed, comparatively.
10:14:44 So that is how we really came to a lot of context for

10:14:47 what we did.
10:14:48 >> And Joseph, we are not opposed to business.
10:14:54 But at some point down the road, 20, 30 years from
10:14:57 now, all the businesses will be on the same playing
10:14:59 field because they will all be basically have these
10:15:02 types of signs.
10:15:03 So when everybody is on the same playing field, then I
10:15:06 think it's okay.
10:15:06 And your district is very interesting.
10:15:08 Because in your district, in the New Tampa shopping
10:15:11 centers and that sort of thing, you have more
10:15:13 restricted codes that are probably a function of the
10:15:17 development plan that's in place.
10:15:19 And then you contrast that with the other part of your
10:15:22 district, which is the Fowler, Fletcher area, Busch
10:15:27 Boulevard, Nebraska area, and the contrast is so
10:15:30 noticeable.
10:15:31 You know, the status quo is not good.
10:15:34 Right now, we have the status quo that looks like
10:15:38 Nebraska Boulevard.
10:15:40 But the improved version is New Tampa.
10:15:43 And which is better for our community?

10:15:46 And let's not stick with the status quo.
10:15:48 Let's make the entire City of Tampa look like New
10:15:49 Tampa and leave that new and improved.
10:15:52 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I agree with you.
10:15:54 I don't know if Mr. Rotella was on the administration
10:15:57 when this took place.
10:15:58 Is he here?
10:16:02 Were you part of this, putting this thing up?
10:16:10 The sign ordinance here.
10:16:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess the question --
10:16:14 >>RON ROTELLA: I will respond to you this way.
10:16:16 There had been a whole host of administrations and
10:16:19 City Councils that have tried to deal -- they
10:16:22 recognize that our sign code allowed that.
10:16:27 But they never had the intestinal fortitude to deal
10:16:31 with it.
10:16:32 And I think what's happened with this committee, as
10:16:34 Julia pointed out, we had industry representatives, we
10:16:36 had business representatives, we had neighborhood
10:16:38 people on there, and we came to a consensus, first and
10:16:42 foremost, that we shouldn't look like this anymore.
10:16:46 And hopefully, council agrees with that position and

10:16:52 will adopt the sign code, and help clean up the city.
10:16:55 The other point I want to make is, we ran out of gas.
10:16:59 After many years in dealing with this whole issue of
10:17:05 digital electronic signs.
10:17:07 John, you asked a question, what if a sign changes
10:17:09 every five minutes, what's the problem?
10:17:11 Well, let's say you have a whole series of electronic
10:17:14 signs, and let's use Kennedy Boulevard as an example.
10:17:17 Some change at five minutes, some three, some an hour,
10:17:19 and you have this psychedelic effect on Kennedy
10:17:21 Boulevard where it looks like a disco hall.
10:17:26 We recognize that that technology is changing. But we
10:17:30 just ran out of gas.
10:17:31 That's why we didn't deal with that.
10:17:32 What I would suggest to council is that you appoint a
10:17:36 subsequent committee to deal with that issue and the
10:17:39 technology.
10:17:39 Because it needs to be dealt with.
10:17:40 We just ran out of gas.
10:17:44 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I don't support this picture,
10:17:46 believe me.
10:17:47 It's not nice.

10:17:48 And we do need modifications.
10:17:51 Thank you.
10:17:53 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Saul-Sena.
10:17:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm willing to -- I think that Mr.
10:17:59 Rotella's suggestion about looking at the electronic
10:18:02 signs is a good idea.
10:18:04 I would like to move on this today, set that aside and
10:18:08 have somebody chair that committee.
10:18:10 If nobody else will do it, I'll do it but if somebody
10:18:12 else wants to do it, that will be great, too.
10:18:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm not opposed to making changes
10:18:17 for the betterment of the whole community.
10:18:19 However, I do have some reservations.
10:18:21 I want to thank all those that spent all the time,
10:18:24 Julia and Cathy and Gloria, for working so diligently.
10:18:28 However, I am going to get myself in trouble.
10:18:29 When you drive down Kennedy, you have about 30,000
10:18:34 some cars a dry driving through and you have a tower
10:18:36 that have two pictures of weather people and they say
10:18:39 that's art.
10:18:40 Well, that's not art F.that's art I'm a washing
10:18:42 machine.

10:18:43 [ Laughter ]
10:18:44 And I look around and I say, I ask some private
10:18:48 questions here.
10:18:48 I say what's the difference between a banner and a
10:18:50 sign?
10:18:52 There's a blank look.
10:18:53 See, you can't have a sign but you can have a banner.
10:18:56 Now, if a banner was just a piece of writing with no
10:19:01 writing or no long on it, I could understand if
10:19:03 there's a difference.
10:19:04 But they both have something on it and it's not art.
10:19:07 It's a scripture of something they want to sell,
10:19:10 whether it's a political campaign, whether it's
10:19:12 something that has to be done.
10:19:14 When government is excluded from the sign code, that's
10:19:20 what people get upset about government.
10:19:23 If it's good for the people, it should be good for the
10:19:26 government.
10:19:26 But we want to pass judgment on signs.
10:19:29 But we are not going to pass judgment on a
10:19:32 governmental sign.
10:19:33 When we give the right to agency, quote-unquote again,

10:19:37 that are government-related, they can have signs, they
10:19:41 can have signs all downtown, they can have signs on
10:19:43 Boy Scout Boulevard, they can have signs on Dale
10:19:45 Mabry, because those are considered governmental
10:19:48 signs.
10:19:50 If all that was included in this ordinance, I would
10:19:52 support the whole ordinance wholeheartedly.
10:19:55 But because there's exception to the ordinances, and
10:19:58 that's a governmental exception, I will not be voting
10:20:01 for the ordinance, even though I want it passed, I
10:20:04 just can't see myself voting on something that
10:20:08 benefits government and not the general public.
10:20:15 >>> Let me speak to that.
10:20:17 Charlie -- and we need to get qualification from Julia
10:20:20 on this.
10:20:20 If I look at page 3 under government signs, Charlie,
10:20:23 it appears that they have addressed that.
10:20:25 They said that no permit is required for government
10:20:28 signs.
10:20:29 But it says otherwise the government sign -- so I
10:20:38 qualify that.
10:20:39 Charlie brings up a good issue.

10:20:41 >>> The way the code reads today, if it's a government
10:20:44 sign and it doesn't matter what's on the sign, it just
10:20:47 needs to be a sign that's on the order of a government
10:20:50 official, you're exempt and it doesn't matter what it
10:20:52 says on the sign or what's happening on the sign.
10:20:54 This is an attempt to place scenarios where there are
10:20:59 certain signage your public health, safety and
10:21:03 welfare.
10:21:03 What we think government signs that you are still
10:21:06 under that auspices but any other kind of sign that
10:21:10 even if it is within the purview of the government
10:21:13 official will have to receive a permit and comply with
10:21:17 the remainder of the sign code.
10:21:19 So this is better than what we have today.
10:21:22 >> So what type of government signs would fall under
10:21:27 the size and setbacks requirements and what type of
10:21:30 government signs would not fall under the size and
10:21:32 setback requirements?
10:21:34 >>> Really a good example, something we talked about a
10:21:36 long time ago which were the adopt the water rate
10:21:39 signs.
10:21:39 The way the code read at that time, those adopt a

10:21:42 waterway signs were considered government sign and you
10:21:45 could have basically -- sponsorship, information that
10:21:51 would be considered off-site advertising.
10:21:54 Under the way the code reads today those would have to
10:21:56 comply with the sign code, which we don't allow
10:21:59 off-site signs so they would not be allowed.
10:22:02 So that's one example of it.
10:22:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry to interrupt but also I
10:22:06 believe there's a provision the sign code committee
10:22:10 also addresses with regard to government changeable
10:22:13 signs that they had to be specifically related to
10:22:15 health and safety.
10:22:16 This would not be for other pursuance.
10:22:18 >>MARTIN SHELBY:
10:22:20 >>> The intent was to have the type of signs that we
10:22:22 think of government signs necessary for health, safety
10:22:25 and welfare, necessary to mover people from point A to
10:22:28 point B, everyone if they are electronic in nature.
10:22:31 For example the new sign that went downtown that was
10:22:32 for the purposes of directing people to parking.
10:22:35 Those kinds of signs, directional signs, those kinds
10:22:40 of signs, if you make those comply with the sign code

10:22:44 requirements, it's very difficult to make setbacks,
10:22:48 because they need to be able to be there.
10:22:50 So we tried to separate it out those two signs.
10:22:53 There's a blanket exemption for that.
10:22:56 So this is an attempt to narrow that exemption but
10:23:02 still include the type of signage that we think was
10:23:04 thought to be necessary in order to have a functioning
10:23:06 government without going through all this process.
10:23:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I agree with part of that analogy,
10:23:15 if I heard it right.
10:23:16 Certainly a right-of-way sign that says one-way street
10:23:21 detour, I have no problem with that.
10:23:22 That's for the health, safety and welfare of all the
10:23:25 citizens.
10:23:25 However, on city right-of-way, when you have
10:23:27 electrical poles, that have signs for weeks and
10:23:33 months, to me, that's health care and welfare for all
10:23:41 the citizens of this community.
10:23:42 So that's something I have internally with my vote on
10:23:45 this passage, possible passage of this sign ordinance.
10:23:47 We are being somewhat narrow, and somewhat very broad
10:23:53 at the same time.

10:23:54 So I have a hard time understanding the whole
10:23:57 logistics of why we are taking some in and leaving
10:24:00 some out and then creating enormous amount of revenue
10:24:04 for those individuals.
10:24:05 And I understand that.
10:24:07 I want everybody to be in the same ballpark playing
10:24:11 the same game.
10:24:12 We are asking for something.
10:24:12 And again I want to say I'm not against individual
10:24:17 government agencies saying for the general welfare of
10:24:19 the public, do not drive here, it's a big 150-foot
10:24:25 cliff going down, or things of that nature.
10:24:27 But when I look around, and I see that we are doing
10:24:31 something to help somebody, and then we are doing
10:24:35 something possibly to clean the city, I have a problem
10:24:38 with that.
10:24:38 I just have a problem internally.
10:24:42 I can't vote -- I'm saying again that I do want to
10:24:47 support the ordinance, but the ordinance again has
10:24:50 omissions in it and therefore I just can't support it.
10:24:53 Thank you, Madam Chair.
10:24:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I guess I need clarification.

10:24:58 I just heard you say the exemption, with government is
10:25:03 the same, on page 3, the same requirement, except for
10:25:06 those that are relative to public safety.
10:25:11 Is that what I heard you say?
10:25:14 >>> Yes, sir.
10:25:15 Waive done in this provision in drafting it was try to
10:25:18 add in the types of services that both the sign
10:25:23 committee, and speaking with the administration folks,
10:25:25 and speaking with other folks, need to have as
10:25:29 government signs, the types of signs that we feel very
10:25:34 strongly, shouldn't have to go through a permitting
10:25:36 process because a lot of times they will not be able
10:25:38 to comply with the permit.
10:25:40 Those include signs for public health, safety, used to
10:25:43 identify public services, traffic control,
10:25:45 neighborhood identification, or events, public
10:25:50 services or facilities, to that provide information on
10:25:52 community events.
10:25:53 The remainder of signs, regardless of whether or not
10:25:57 they are put up on the order of the governmental
10:26:03 entity, will have to comply with the sign code.
10:26:05 >> So it is restricted?

10:26:10 >>> It is absolutely more restricted than today.
10:26:12 Is it completely restricted this?
10:26:15 No.
10:26:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I concur with councilman Miranda.
10:26:19 At dresses the issues that those signs that you just
10:26:22 outlined are being given for public safety reasons, is
10:26:28 way hear you saying.
10:26:29 >>> I wouldn't characterize it as a variance.
10:26:31 What I would say is that those types signs, you are
10:26:38 indicating within the code what type of signs City
10:26:40 Council and the city consider to be necessary for the
10:26:42 purposes of a government, public health, safety and
10:26:46 welfare scenario, and the remainder of signs will be
10:26:49 required.
10:26:49 They are not prohibited.
10:26:50 They are just required to comply with the sign code.
10:26:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Can we read the ordinance?
10:26:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to make a motion to
10:26:57 that effect.
10:26:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott, would you read that,
10:26:59 please?
10:27:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Question before you do, council.

10:27:01 I'm sorry.
10:27:02 Just for clarification, did council then want to make
10:27:04 any changes or address the issue of the electronic
10:27:09 signs or address that separately?
10:27:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would address that separately.
10:27:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The question now, councilman's
10:27:20 Caetano's concern about gas stations, for instance,
10:27:23 every 24 hours.
10:27:26 >>JULIA COLE: Ask at a minimum today with this
10:27:29 ordinance you ad at least codify the current policy.
10:27:32 It has been a significant problem.
10:27:35 Or alternatively allow me to take this back and
10:27:38 completely prohibit electronic signs until we make a
10:27:41 decision on what we want to do, because we cannot
10:27:44 continue forward with acting on a policy that is not
10:27:47 codified.
10:27:48 So I think that at a very minimum either we put in
10:27:52 place the 24-hour period or alternatively we
10:27:55 specifically prohibit them.
10:27:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's read it.
10:28:01 Then if we want to do amendments we will do that
10:28:04 later.

10:28:05 We need to start somewhere.
10:28:07 We have to get this code written.
10:28:09 We have to do something.
10:28:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I am going to move on first reading
10:28:13 ordinance of the city of Tampa, Florida making
10:28:15 comprehensive provision to chapter 20.5 City of Tampa
10:28:18 code of ordinances, 20.5-4, amending section 20.5-7,
10:28:26 allowable signs, permits and not require amending
10:28:29 section 20.5-13 on-site signs, permits by repealing,
10:28:35 replacing section 20.5-13, C-1, amending section
10:28:41 20.5-13 on-site sign by replacing -- repealing and
10:28:47 replacing section 20.5-13, C-2, repealing, replacing
10:28:52 section 20.5-16, nonconform signs, generally repealing
10:28:56 all ordinances or part of all ordinances in conflict
10:29:00 thereof, providing an effective date.
10:29:03 And I guess we can include in the motion to codify --
10:29:11 it is in there?
10:29:12 All right then.
10:29:12 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a question on the motion.
10:29:15 Mr. Dingfelder.
10:29:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Friendly amendment to the motion,
10:29:17 Mr. Scott.

10:29:19 Staff and the neighborhood associations have requested
10:29:21 that we add the word, somewhere within there,
10:29:25 registered neighborhood association, so it's not just
10:29:27 any community group.
10:29:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's fine.
10:29:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have to put it as part of the
10:29:36 motion.
10:29:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes, it's included.
10:29:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Again, I am not trying to beat a
10:29:43 dead horse here, but I want to make sure that the
10:29:46 record reflects that I would support this other than
10:29:47 when you start saying that a banner is not a sign, and
10:29:51 only the government is going to decide which signs are
10:29:55 the ones that they are going to pick and choose to
10:29:58 make these things, if I'm right, I think these light
10:30:04 poles that the city allows certain banners, they are
10:30:06 not signs but they are banners now, then anybody can
10:30:09 put a sign on that light pole and now you are going to
10:30:12 tell them they can't do that.
10:30:14 I'll tell you, what what's good for the goose is good
10:30:19 for the gander so I won't support this based on what I
10:30:22 feel is an injustice: Motion and second.

10:30:24 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Caetano and Miranda
10:30:30 voting no, and Mulhern being absent at vote.
10:30:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Is this coming back at 10:00 or
10:30:38 9:30 in three weeks?
10:30:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Second reading, 9:30 on September
10:30:44 20th.
10:30:44 >> I would like to ask Ms. Cole if you could clarify
10:30:47 the television station on tend Boulevard that has a
10:30:50 large photograph of the weather person.
10:30:52 Is that legal and what are we doing about it?
10:30:54 >>JULIA COLE: I understand that that place has been
10:30:57 cited, that that sign has been cited and it is in the
10:31:00 code enforcement process.
10:31:01 >> Could we get a report back in two weeks?
10:31:04 County be a written report, three weeks, a written
10:31:06 report on where it is in the code enforcement process?
10:31:10 >>> Yes.
10:31:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That would be a breaking story on
10:31:14 Bill O'Reilly.
10:31:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:31:18 (Motion carried).
10:31:18 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I would like to ask Ms. Cole a

10:31:23 question.
10:31:23 These flags that are put up by different governments
10:31:26 on poles, is there any provisions to stop that?
10:31:31 Or does it continue?
10:31:33 >>> Flags are specifically allowed.
10:31:37 >> You will see flags at Christmastime.
10:31:39 >>> There is no prohibition of flags.
10:31:41 There is no prohibition of government flags, American
10:31:44 flags, those kind of issues.
10:31:46 And there is no regulation on flags, like a political
10:31:53 subdivision or anything else.
10:31:54 If you are talking about flags like on individual
10:31:58 properties, like a single-family residential flag, we
10:32:01 have provisions that allow for what we call temporary
10:32:05 signs on individuals property, that we allow signs
10:32:11 such as flags on single-family house, in a temporary
10:32:15 manner.
10:32:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Before we go on, we are going to take a
10:32:19 little break.
10:32:19 Mr. Miranda has a presentation to make.
10:32:21 We will let him do that now.
10:32:26 It's my pleasure today to be here in front of all of

10:32:49 you and all the many city employees and the citizens
10:32:52 of the City of Tampa to make a presentation to an
10:32:56 individual who is departing our city.
10:32:59 He's done an outstanding job for the City of Tampa
10:33:02 since he came in to the office that he hold as
10:33:07 director of department of environmental waste and
10:33:10 program management.
10:33:11 Mr. McCary.
10:33:18 >> I think he has a team coming up to join him.
10:33:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: David, I know you originally are
10:33:26 from Texas.
10:33:28 I know you come to us from Durham, North Carolina.
10:33:32 And I understand you are leaving to go to San Antonio.
10:33:36 >>> Yes, sir.
10:33:36 >> Well, I also heard a rumor that it's on a full
10:33:40 basketball scholarship.
10:33:41 [ Laughter ]
10:33:43 But if I may, he's a certified public manager, CPM,
10:33:49 and he's done that for many years.
10:33:52 Let me read what he's done for the City of Tampa in
10:33:54 really the short time that he's been here, and really
10:33:58 mixed emotions on your leaving.

10:34:00 We appreciate the work that you have done in the city
10:34:02 for the years you have been here.
10:34:03 And we really know you are going to do an outstanding
10:34:07 job in San Antonio.
10:34:08 We are heartbroken that you're leaving, and
10:34:10 San Antonio is taking one of our favorite sons.
10:34:15 And you have been successful because you are a human
10:34:18 individual.
10:34:18 You have taken a department and you have turned it
10:34:19 around, because you believe in your people, and you
10:34:22 helped them be better managers of the job, be better
10:34:28 drivers in the job that they do, be caring individuals
10:34:30 for the City of Tampa, and it's just not just a job.
10:34:34 It became -- when you wake up in the morning they want
10:34:37 to go work for you and this is what it's all about.
10:34:39 You have done an outstanding job.
10:34:41 If I may read this.
10:34:42 Presented to David W. McCary, CPM in recognition of
10:34:47 your out standing service for the City of Tampa as
10:34:49 director of the department of solid waste and
10:34:50 environmental program management, and it's 235
10:34:54 employees.

10:34:54 David has directed directing enterprise fund of over
10:34:58 $70 million annually and he's a nationally recognized,
10:35:03 that he's done work at the McKay Bay waste energy
10:35:06 facility, also implemented a comprehensive strategic
10:35:09 plan that saved the City of Tampa over $4 million
10:35:12 through productivity improvements which include the
10:35:15 reclaiming of the northwest City Center contract from
10:35:19 area private sectors and individuals that had those
10:35:23 contracts, and increased City of Tampa revenue
10:35:28 portfolio by 3.5 million, introduced and implemented
10:35:31 the city's first fully automatic refuge program.
10:35:36 Most importantly you are saving the city money.
10:35:38 Because you're leaving.
10:35:40 [ Laughter ]
10:35:40 Even when you leave you save money.
10:35:43 Let me tell you why.
10:35:49 I got the administration to hire an architect to
10:35:53 change the door frames to 6'5" and you are saving us a
10:35:58 lot of money not to make changes in all the city
10:36:03 buildings.
10:36:04 [ Laughter ]
10:36:04 What you have done is very admirable.

10:36:08 You are very good.
10:36:10 [ Applause ]
10:36:16 >> I have got to add, if my team can kind of come
10:36:20 behind me.
10:36:21 They may not want to do the camera thing.
10:36:25 It has been my honor and privilege to have had the
10:36:29 opportunity to work for a world class city like Tampa.
10:36:34 I have truly enjoyed our mayor, City Council, and the
10:36:37 administration.
10:36:40 You have such gifted talent within our rank and file
10:36:43 that is so amazing and unbelievable.
10:36:47 It has truly been my joy.
10:36:51 If all of our collection team were here, would you
10:36:53 really see the place filled.
10:36:54 But a lot of our administrative staff is here in
10:36:59 support.
10:36:59 We love you all.
10:37:00 We wish you the very best.
10:37:02 We are leaving you in very good, capable hands.
10:37:08 D. Jacob will be the interim director at the time.
10:37:11 Mark wool fork, which is our operations chief, and
10:37:14 Nancy McCann, our administrative chief, along with

10:37:19 all of the executives and team members that are part
10:37:21 of it.
10:37:24 This is what it's all about, reaching back and
10:37:26 discovering talent within the organization, because it
10:37:29 exists.
10:37:31 There are so many individuals that I know I would like
10:37:34 to thank, there is no way I could do it on camera.
10:37:37 It would take too long.
10:37:39 But most importantly, we have a gift.
10:37:42 Each of our gifts, I have been asked to share my gift
10:37:47 with another city.
10:37:47 And as I move forward, Tampa will always be my home.
10:37:52 Illinois always have a place here in my heart.
10:37:55 We love you all and thank you for the recognition.
10:37:59 [ Applause ]
10:38:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We also have a card that we all
10:38:04 signed, and a lot of people have signed that really
10:38:07 are going to miss you and we wish you the best of
10:38:10 luck, you and your family.
10:38:11 You are truly to be commended for being the individual
10:38:14 that you are.
10:38:16 >>> Thank you, sir.

10:38:16 I appreciate it.
10:38:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: David, this is a tough day for
10:38:22 council.
10:38:23 And I know it's a tough day for you as you leave us
10:38:26 and leave your good friends and your co-workers.
10:38:31 I had the privilege and honor to serve with you as
10:38:32 public works chair for the prior 3 or 4 years.
10:38:36 And I'll tell you what, when we came on board things
10:38:39 were a mess over there in solid waste.
10:38:41 And you just jumped in, and not only did you fix
10:38:45 things, when I think about, I had two experience that
10:38:51 is made me realize what a tremendous team builder you
10:38:54 were and the person you were.
10:38:55 David invited me to come over there for a morning
10:38:58 meeting, and that he has with his folks before they
10:39:01 hit the road.
10:39:02 And go out and collect our trash.
10:39:05 And I went over there, and the minute I got into that
10:39:09 room with 200 men and women, the love just pervaded
10:39:15 the atmosphere and for you, and they respected you,
10:39:20 they respect you, they love you, they are willing to
10:39:24 go to war with you, and that's why you call them the

10:39:27 warriors.
10:39:28 And that was reinforced by my own guy who picked up my
10:39:35 trash, Luis.
10:39:39 I said what do you think of the new guy?
10:39:41 He couldn't say more wonderful things about you.
10:39:45 You are just a general and a great leader, and it's a
10:39:49 huge loss for the city, and we'll miss you personally
10:39:52 and professionally.
10:39:53 And best of luck.
10:39:56 >>> Thank you.
10:39:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank you for leading our
10:40:00 green efforts in the city.
10:40:02 The effort was kind of not happening until you took
10:40:05 over about a year ago.
10:40:06 And suddenly we are going to have a web site.
10:40:09 We have got an organization.
10:40:11 We have got a plan.
10:40:13 And your leadership in terms of environmental issues
10:40:16 is so key.
10:40:18 We need this effort.
10:40:19 We won't be able to replace you.
10:40:21 But you have created enough of a structure so the

10:40:27 city's environmental and green efforts will move
10:40:29 forward and I thank you so much for that.
10:40:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. McCary.
10:40:36 I have been here just a short period of time but let
10:40:39 me just commend you on your professionalism and the
10:40:42 way you handle yourself before this council.
10:40:43 That's one thing when people come before a legislative
10:40:48 body.
10:40:49 And you conducted yourself in a very professional
10:40:52 manner, and you were always prepared.
10:40:56 Not only that but you can tell that you have a staff
10:40:58 that you have worked with, and you can leave good
10:41:04 people in place that carry on.
10:41:05 That says about A lot about your leadership style.
10:41:08 I will tell you, people of your character, people of
10:41:10 your style, is key.
10:41:16 So our loss, we recognize, is a great gain for the
10:41:21 city of San Antonio but we wish you the best and our
10:41:23 prayers are with you.
10:41:24 Thank you for what you mean to this community and the
10:41:26 great job you have done.
10:41:28 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: David, I am going to miss you

10:41:31 shopping at Publix.
10:41:34 And I hear nothing but great things about you.
10:41:37 I haven't known you that long.
10:41:38 And I commend you for what you have done.
10:41:42 I know you will be successful wherever you go.
10:41:45 I appreciate you.
10:41:46 God bless you.
10:41:48 >>GWEN MILLER: That goes without saying we thank you
10:41:51 for the gift you brought to Tampa.
10:41:52 It really changed the department.
10:41:54 You know, your gift is going to be missed.
10:41:57 We are sorry you have to take it somewhere else.
10:41:59 We need it here.
10:42:00 Because you are doing a wonderful job and we really
10:42:03 appreciate everything you have done.
10:42:06 >>> I have to tell you that the ten-year comprehensive
10:42:09 plan that we have published was done by the employees.
10:42:14 This is done collectively as a vision for the next ten
10:42:17 years.
10:42:17 So it will be our road map to success, so that anyone,
10:42:22 when the new director comes in, because there will be
10:42:24 a national search, as a new director comes in, they

10:42:27 can pick up the road map and that the future looks
10:42:31 bright, because we left a foundation for them.
10:42:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:42:34 And much success in your new position.
10:42:36 And whenever you come back to Tampa, come back and
10:42:39 visit us.
10:42:44 It will be good to see knew City Hall again.
10:42:46 [ Applause ]
10:42:49 We now go to committee reports.
10:42:58 Public safety.
10:42:58 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I move items 9 through 14.
10:43:02 >> Second.
10:43:03 (Motion carried).
10:43:03 >>GWEN MILLER: Parks, recreation, Linda Saul-Sena.
10:43:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move resolution 15.
10:43:09 >> Second.
10:43:09 (Motion carried).
10:43:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Public works, Mr. Charlie Miranda.
10:43:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move items 16 to 18.
10:43:17 >> Second.
10:43:17 (Motion carried).
10:43:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Building and zoning, Mr. Joseph

10:43:21 Caetano.
10:43:22 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I would like to move items 19 to
10:43:28 28.
10:43:29 >> Second.
10:43:29 (Motion carried).
10:43:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Transportation, Ms. Linda Saul-Sena,
10:43:32 vice chair.
10:43:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move resolutions 29
10:43:39 through 32.
10:43:42 >> Second.
10:43:42 (Motion carried).
10:43:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder, set the public
10:43:48 hearings.
10:43:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move items 33 through 38, setting
10:43:51 them for public hearing pursuant to the agenda.
10:43:54 >> Second.
10:43:54 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
10:43:59 (Motion carried)
10:44:00 Item 39, ordinance for second reading.
10:44:08 >>REBECCA KERT: I want to remind City Council where we
10:44:10 are on this.
10:44:11 This is presently before you on an ordinance for

10:44:12 second reading, requesting a 4(COP-X) of Raymond James
10:44:15 stadium.
10:44:19 Because they are requesting waivers, I wanted to
10:44:22 remind City Council what the burden is on the
10:44:25 applicant.
10:44:25 They are required, they have the initial burden to
10:44:27 demonstrate that the sale of alcoholic beverages will
10:44:29 be incidental to the primary business at the
10:44:33 establishment.
10:44:34 They do not in fact have the initial burden to
10:44:36 demonstrate that they do not have adverse effects.
10:44:39 However, if there's substantial competent evidence in
10:44:42 the record that you thought granting a wet zoning at
10:44:45 this location will caused a verse effects, then in
10:44:48 fact the burden shifts back to them.
10:44:50 That's where we are today.
10:44:51 I do believe the applicant would like to make a
10:44:53 presentation, and have some possible conditions for
10:44:58 City Council to present.
10:45:02 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open the public hearing.
10:45:04 >> So moved.
10:45:04 >> Second.

10:45:05 (Motion carried).
10:45:10 >> Anyone that's going to speak on 39 if you would
10:45:12 stand and raise your right hand.
10:45:23 (Oath administered by Clerk).
10:45:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I ask that all communication that is
10:45:26 have been available for public inspection at City
10:45:28 Council's office be received and filed into the record
10:45:30 at this time.
10:45:30 I understand from the clerk there is something.
10:45:33 So a motion.
10:45:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Motion to receive and file the
10:45:36 documents.
10:45:38 >> So moved.
10:45:39 >> Second.
10:45:39 (Motion carried).
10:45:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Council, again.
10:45:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Again a reminder if you have had any
10:45:46 communication with any member of the public please
10:45:50 disclose prior to action the person, persons or group
10:45:53 or entity with whom the verbal communication occurred
10:45:55 and the substance of that verbal communication.
10:45:57 And finally, ladies, with regard to all hearings, if

10:46:01 they are quasi-judicial, when you state your name,
10:46:03 please reaffirm for the record that you have been
10:46:05 sworn.
10:46:05 I will put a little sign there on the lecturn to
10:46:07 remind you.
10:46:08 I thank you.
10:46:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Since this is a continuance, what
10:46:12 would you recommend in terms of sequence of
10:46:14 presentation?
10:46:14 It looks like we got petitioner, we got TPD, and
10:46:17 perhaps staff in general.
10:46:18 >>MARTIN SHELBY: My understanding -- am I correct,
10:46:23 this is a continuation of the second reading?
10:46:25 Or is this --
10:46:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Continuance with council's
10:46:35 questions?
10:46:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: My suggestion, council, would be
10:46:37 because there was a request for additional
10:46:39 information, and there is new evidence to be
10:46:41 presented, that perhaps you allowed the petitioner to
10:46:45 make his presentation.
10:46:47 You take whatever additional evidence you wish, and

10:46:49 you again allow him an opportunity to have closing and
10:46:52 rebuttal.
10:46:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
10:46:56 Petitioner.
10:46:57 >>> Good morning.
10:46:58 John Marshall, Holland and Knight LLP here in Tampa,
10:47:02 here representing the restaurant.
10:47:12 We will move forward as quickly as we can.
10:47:14 Given the new information we have for you today, and
10:47:17 also to answer the questions that you presented at the
10:47:19 last hearing, we would like to make a full
10:47:22 presentation.
10:47:23 I will be as quick as possible so we can get right to
10:47:25 the people who are speaking as well.
10:47:28 Mr. Dingfelder, as you said, we have been here before
10:47:30 you twice on this petition already, and we appreciate
10:47:33 the opportunity to address you again today.
10:47:40 To share the developments in proposed zoning
10:47:42 conditions that we believe will make this petition
10:47:44 about something which Levy and the community can be
10:47:48 very proud.
10:47:48 Levy, I haven't had really an opportunity to tell but

10:47:51 Levy and I would like to share just a few things.
10:47:53 They have been with us for two years in the community.
10:47:56 But their experience goes far beyond just here at
10:47:59 Raymond James stadium.
10:48:01 You know Levy here in Tampa because if you get a
10:48:04 hotdog or a soda or beer at Raymond James they
10:48:08 consider you their guest and they are serving you in
10:48:12 all the concessions at Raymond James stadium.
10:48:13 But in addition to Raymond James they operate the
10:48:15 concessions at 55 professional sporting venues, 14
10:48:20 concert and convention centers, and this includes nine
10:48:24 other NFL stadiums.
10:48:25 So Levy is a distinguished leader in their field.
10:48:28 And with me today, I would like you to meet one who
10:48:33 has been here before, actually both have been here
10:48:35 before, but Cindy Randensberg, vice-president for
10:48:41 Levy.
10:48:42 And also with us is George Scott, who is actually out
10:48:45 at Raymond James stadium and is the operations at
10:48:49 Raymond James.
10:48:50 We also have with us Richard Turner.
10:48:52 He is an attorney with regulatory compliance services,

10:48:56 RCS.
10:48:57 RCS prepares the materials and instructs all of levies
10:49:02 employees, front line and management on responsible
10:49:04 vendor training.
10:49:05 I would like to introduce Richard.
10:49:09 Richard is also special guest.
10:49:11 He is former -- former head of Florida alcohol and
10:49:15 tobacco. Now John LaRocca, consulting, he is here
10:49:20 today.
10:49:21 And Henry Saavedra of the Tampa sport authority here
10:49:26 this morning.
10:49:26 Wednesday morning, I think, council, we provided
10:49:29 binders to council, and I just want to make sure --
10:49:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We seem to have lost a quorum.
10:49:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I didn't want you to would go
10:49:47 through the whole spiel again.
10:49:49 At the rate you charge I only want it once.
10:49:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We'll just hold.
10:49:54 And we are hold your time until we can get the quorum
10:49:57 back.
10:50:14 >>> I just want this is what it looks like right here.
10:50:19 And if anyone doesn't have one, I would be glad to

10:50:21 provide an extra copy right now.
10:50:24 And with that, I will give a copy to the clerk.
10:50:27 And I think city attorney Rebecca Kert I need to give
10:50:33 a copy as well.
10:50:34 May I approach?
10:50:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Our attorney says you need to take
10:50:51 roll again real quick just to clean that up.
10:50:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
10:51:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm here.
10:51:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
10:51:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
10:51:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
10:51:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have a quorum.
10:51:14 Go ahead.
10:51:16 >>> Before you in the binder, and councilman
10:51:18 Saul-Sena, I just was saying, if we provided --
10:51:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I could hear it.
10:51:25 >>> Super.
10:51:25 I'll be referring to materials.
10:51:26 There's also only two things in the binders. The
10:51:29 first would be materials that are questions that you
10:51:32 asked at the last hearing but also and importantly

10:51:34 additional information about our proposed zoning
10:51:38 conditions, and why we believe it would be appropriate
10:51:40 in this case for Levy to be able to serve mixed drinks
10:51:44 outside of just the area of Raymond James.
10:51:51 I want to start by thanking the Tampa police because
10:51:53 they have made research available to all interested
10:51:55 parties and have made the research task easier for
10:51:59 everyone involved in the petition.
10:52:01 Levy feels, as TPD does, that safety is critical to
10:52:05 this petition.
10:52:07 We also -- and I also regret that I that I was not
10:52:10 able to share with TPD the fruits of some of our
10:52:14 research that was just completed this week so the
10:52:16 report you received on Monday it was my faulty was not
10:52:18 able to get information to officer Miller but I have
10:52:20 supplied it to him this morning concerning the zoning
10:52:22 conditions that Levy is proposing as well as some of
10:52:26 the backup research that I will explain to you we have
10:52:28 done on the NFL venues.
10:52:32 Levy understands serving alcohol is a privilege, not
10:52:34 just generally but of course especially here in Tampa
10:52:36 with the zoning requirements.

10:52:38 And Raymond James is about as highly visible a
10:52:41 location as there is in the county with thousands
10:52:44 almost every weekend in the fallen joying our venue.
10:52:48 We heard your comments and with our team with, the
10:52:53 Tampa Sports Authority and with the City of Tampa's
10:52:57 office to formulate a comprehensive set of zoning
10:52:59 conditions.
10:53:01 Levy's goal is nothing short of making Raymond James a
10:53:07 model venue, service with alcoholic beverages
10:53:10 including mixed drinks.
10:53:11 To achieve that goal, Levy proposes three zoning
10:53:14 conditions for the general admission seating areas of
10:53:18 Raymond James stadium.
10:53:19 First, a condition that would bar the sale of liquor
10:53:22 shots anywhere in the general administrations seating
10:53:25 areas.
10:53:26 Second, restriction that would limit mixed drinks
10:53:28 liquor portions to 1.25-ounces.
10:53:33 And third, a condition that would bar roaming vendors
10:53:36 from selling mixed drinks in the general admissions
10:53:39 area.
10:53:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's tab 9?

10:53:42 >>> That's correct, councilman, tab 9, list of
10:53:45 conditions, yes.
10:53:47 These zoning conditions -- we are not aware of another
10:53:51 concessionaire or professional sports venue that would
10:53:54 make these three conscientious steps as a legal
10:53:58 condition of their right to sell mixed drinks, fan
10:54:03 enjoyment and safety are our highest priority.
10:54:07 The July 19th hearing we had the initial hearing
10:54:09 where there was a vote for approval and we came back
10:54:12 with the August 2nd hearing where there were
10:54:16 several questions.
10:54:17 And in the binder, I just want to highlight those
10:54:19 materials that answer questions.
10:54:22 And I am going to go through the binder now and will
10:54:24 be available to answer any questions you have.
10:54:26 I will just try to keep the process going.
10:54:29 At tab 1 is a fact sheet that summarizes key items
10:54:33 regarding the proposed wet zoning including answers to
10:54:35 your questions.
10:54:38 Tabs 2, 3 and 4 are complete explanation of the Sports
10:54:42 Authority authorization of this wet zoning petition.
10:54:44 That's in your binder at tabs 2, 3 and 4.

10:54:47 In short, though, TSA stadium agreement with the Bucs
10:54:51 authorizes leave toy pursue this wet zoning petition.
10:54:54 This petition is an extension of the authorization
10:54:56 that's provided in the stadium agreement.
10:55:01 You have information relating to other NFL entities
10:55:04 that permit the sale ever mixed drinks to general
10:55:06 admission, ticket holders.
10:55:10 At tab 5, I think it's just important to look at it
10:55:13 real quickly.
10:55:16 Officer Miller was good enough to provide to us
10:55:18 showing that 13 of 32 teams permit mixed drinks to be
10:55:21 served to general admissions ticket holders.
10:55:26 And added to that what we found, and this is the
10:55:29 research I wasn't able to give to officer Miller on
10:55:31 time this week, but four additional venues allow
10:55:36 service of mixed drinks to general admission stadium
10:55:39 guests.
10:55:40 That would mean that 17 teams, 17 teams in the NFL,
10:55:44 follow the policy of serving mixed drinks to fans who
10:55:48 do not have the privilege of sitting in club or sweet
10:55:51 soothes seats F.council approves Levy's petition today
10:55:54 it would be extending a right enjoyed by the majority

10:55:57 of NFL franchises and the majority of fans at those
10:56:00 NFL franchises.
10:56:02 Tab 7 also notes the other sporting venues in Florida,
10:56:06 the other major league sporting venues.
10:56:08 And you will see that Raymond James really stand as
10:56:11 loan as not being allowed to permit the sale to
10:56:14 general admission guests at those stadiums.
10:56:21 Raymond James is the only stadium in Florida that does
10:56:24 not allow general admission fans to purchase mixed
10:56:29 drinks.
10:56:30 A look at our local situation in Pinellas and
10:56:34 Hillsborough County, it's the only venue not to allow
10:56:40 sales of mixed drinks to again guests.
10:56:45 Raymond James stadium is also a major concert venue.
10:56:49 Especially relevant, and something that with these
10:56:54 other facts we have a great track record at Raymond
10:56:56 James for selling the drinks for nine years in the
10:56:59 club and suite seating areas to 14,000 fans.
10:57:03 But even with that long track record, of selling mixed
10:57:06 drinks at Raymond James, Levy with your approval is
10:57:10 determined to be even more circumspect and exceed
10:57:13 standards set by other NFL franchises by the zoning

10:57:17 conditions they offered to agree to today.
10:57:22 To summarize Levy's request, Levy's petition expands
10:57:25 the privilege to serve mixed drinks outside of the
10:57:29 suite and club seating areas and applies only to
10:57:31 professional sporting contests and concerts.
10:57:34 This would not apply to USF football games.
10:57:38 And that's something that officer Miller had asked me
10:57:40 to explain on the record this morning.
10:57:41 The contract, the seating agreement enacted in 1996,
10:57:46 referred to earlier, contractually ties or obligates
10:57:50 the Buccaneers and their concessionaires to serve
10:57:53 these mixed drinks only at professional sporting
10:57:55 events like professional football games and concerts.
10:57:58 So this privilege, if you were to approve today, would
10:58:02 not extend to USF football games.
10:58:06 At tab 13, you will see the select points of service
10:58:09 throughout Raymond James stadium, where Levy proposes
10:58:11 to sell the mixed drinks, and it's split up into two
10:58:16 areas, the 100 level, the bottom level of Raymond
10:58:18 James, would have service, for sale. The second
10:58:25 level, as you may be aware, are the club and suites
10:58:26 seats at Raymond James stadium.

10:58:27 That's not in the petition today because it's already
10:58:29 wet zoned for full liquor.
10:58:31 But going to the third level, there would be four
10:58:33 points of kiosks on the third level of Raymond James
10:58:37 stadium.
10:58:39 But again we feel the most compelling part of the
10:58:41 conditions are that we are not going to allow shops in
10:58:43 the general seating areas, we are not going to allow
10:58:45 more than a measure of one and a quarter ounces of
10:58:48 liquor in a drink, and we are not going to allow
10:58:52 roaming vendors to serve these areas.
10:58:54 And importantly, we can bring real world change, one
10:59:00 and a quarter ounces is less alcohol than a 12-ounce
10:59:03 beer, the smallest beer available at Raymond James.
10:59:06 In fact 1.5-ounces of liquor is equivalent to a
10:59:09 12-ounce beer so you are getting about 16% less liquor
10:59:12 in the mixed drink that you might be purchasing so we
10:59:15 feel that this is really the safest option that
10:59:19 addresses the community need that you are expressing
10:59:22 at the last hearing, council, and unquestionably far
10:59:26 more restricted than the industry standard.
10:59:29 Levy believes that this experience amongst all the

10:59:33 fans at the stadium allowing club and suite and
10:59:35 general admission fans to enjoy the same privileges,
10:59:38 but more importantly that the sale of mixed drinks to
10:59:40 general admissions fans at Raymond James under the
10:59:43 conditions that we have proposed is equal to or
10:59:45 exceeds the legal restriction that is now exist at any
10:59:48 pro stadium.
10:59:49 Levy understands that the right to sell alcoholic is a
10:59:53 privilege and it's a privilege to be protected because
10:59:57 they work at nine other NFL venues as well as other
11:00:00 sporting venues that they serve.
11:00:04 I feel it's critical we hear from the rest of the team
11:00:07 and I invite them up, with your permission, council,
11:00:11 one by one, so that you can question them about their
11:00:14 experience.
11:00:15 We would like to begin by asking Mr. Henry Saavedra to
11:00:21 come forward with, the Tampa Sports Authority,
11:00:23 oversees all aspects of Raymond James stadium
11:00:26 including security and he is here to address the
11:00:28 issues relevant to the petition.
11:00:36 >>> Good morning.
11:00:38 My name is Henry Saavedra, Executive Director of the

11:00:43 Tampa Sports Authority, 4201 North Dale Mabry highway,
11:00:46 Tampa, and I have been sworn in.
11:00:47 I'd like to briefly restate and cop firm some of the
11:00:51 comments that Mr. Marshall just made.
11:00:53 First back in 1996, the authority granted the Bucs
11:00:57 contractual rights to sell beer, wine and mixed drinks
11:01:01 at Raymond James stadium but subject to the
11:01:05 appropriate licenses and wet zoning.
11:01:08 That contract was ratified by the City of Tampa and
11:01:11 ratified by Hillsborough County, and so, yes, the
11:01:13 authority very clearly does support the wet zoning
11:01:16 request being made today.
11:01:18 Secondly, I want to show you that our staff works very
11:01:21 closely with the Levy staff.
11:01:23 I would ask you, if the fans complain about any of the
11:01:25 food they call us, they don't call Levy so we make
11:01:28 sure we get and coordinate.
11:01:31 Of the 3,000 part-time employees that it takes to run
11:01:35 a Bucs game, about half of them are Levy employees.
11:01:37 And the vast majority of those employees are nonprofit
11:01:41 workers, the money goes back to their charities,
11:01:45 parents clubs, boosters, what have you.

11:01:46 So really critical the training, coordination, to
11:01:50 recoordinate with the Levy staff to make sure that
11:01:52 everything is done well.
11:01:53 I think the fruits are evident.
11:01:56 We are one of the top NFL stadiums in the country.
11:01:59 I also want to mention in your packet, and I will go
11:02:02 briefly, tab 14 is a compilation of different industry
11:02:07 standards.
11:02:08 It wasn't done just by Levy. This is many hours put
11:02:11 together by the Bucs staff, by stadium staff, and by
11:02:13 Levy coming up with some ideas for proposals and
11:02:16 procedures.
11:02:17 Finally, the third thing I want to mention briefly is
11:02:19 although the authority's responsibility for --
11:02:25 responsibility for safety and security for the
11:02:27 facility, for the fans, we do hire Tampa Police
11:02:29 Department -- excuse me, do hire Tampa police
11:02:33 officers, sheriff's officers, highway patrolmen,
11:02:38 hundreds of security people.
11:02:40 So the actual deployment, tactics, how we are going to
11:02:43 do it, we rely heavily on major Bennett.
11:02:48 So we basically rely on major Beth Bennett and Tampa

11:02:53 Police Department to do. That it's a collaborative
11:02:55 effort, fluid effort.
11:02:56 During the Bucs games we will have members from
11:02:59 homeland security, NDLE.
11:03:02 Again I rely on major been tote tell us what to do on
11:03:07 special cases.
11:03:08 Having said that, Tim -- the kiosks at Raymond James,
11:03:14 I can't imagine that causing any change to our
11:03:17 operation.
11:03:17 However I would expect the Tampa Police Department
11:03:19 would monitor that and evaluate that and if major
11:03:21 Bennett came back and said we need additional
11:03:23 security, let me tell you we are going to do that.
11:03:26 So we would follow his lead.
11:03:28 Let me say the Tampa Sports Authority definitely
11:03:30 endorses this petition, that we work closely with Levy
11:03:33 in implementing policies to make it easy and safe for
11:03:36 the fans, and finally, we will continue to monitor and
11:03:39 evaluate with the advice of the Tampa Police
11:03:41 Department any security issues that happen at the
11:03:44 stadium.
11:03:45 We hope that you will move this petition and we thank

11:03:48 you very much.
11:03:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Saavedra, I want to thank you
11:03:57 for all the work you have done and the excellent work
11:03:59 you have done there.
11:04:00 There's no doubt about that.
11:04:01 However, I would just like to ask you one question,
11:04:03 sir.
11:04:06 Since the Sports Authority endorses this, does the
11:04:12 Sports Authority get any revenue at all, additional
11:04:14 revenue from this, and that comes with a part 2 part
11:04:18 of the question.
11:04:20 If this passes, do you have an additional
11:04:23 responsibility for medical needs, and those needs that
11:04:27 might be created by the enhancement of additional
11:04:30 sales of alcohol in a large volume possibly?
11:04:36 Or is this just between the concessionaire and the
11:04:39 licensee of the stadium, not you, being the
11:04:42 Buccaneers, who are working to further get more
11:04:46 revenue?
11:04:48 >>> As we look at it, the contract allows the
11:04:50 Buccaneers to sell it, and you have to look at the
11:04:53 whole contract.

11:04:54 We get close to $5.5 million of rent from the Bucs.
11:04:57 Actual incremental revenue from adding ten kiosks, I
11:05:02 don't see any revenue coming to the Sports Authority
11:05:04 for that.
11:05:05 I hope that answers your question.
11:05:13 >>> Just to quickly address a point that you raised,
11:05:16 we expect this is not going to increase volume.
11:05:20 It's really transfer demand, people who enjoyed the
11:05:22 beer now will be able to enjoy drinks.
11:05:27 We think liquor by volume is actually going to
11:05:29 increase by 16% or if you have two drinks 32% by a
11:05:34 third.
11:05:35 I would like to invite the regional vice-president of
11:05:38 Levy, she is here from Houston, Texas.
11:05:40 She really gives us the scope of the commitment,
11:05:43 institutionally, of Levy to safe alcohol service.
11:05:49 Cindy.
11:05:52 >>> Good morning.
11:05:53 Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with
11:05:55 you.
11:05:55 My name is Cindy van Randensberg, Levy restaurants,
11:06:04 from the home office.

11:06:05 Yes, I have been sworn in.
11:06:06 Really, I would request this morning to give
11:06:12 consideration to allow us to serve in the
11:06:15 concessionary areas and the general concourse area.
11:06:17 Our goal with that is not to sell more alcohol but
11:06:21 just to ensure that all the fans and guest that is are
11:06:24 coming to the Tampa Bay stadium have the freedom that
11:06:30 the individuals on the sweet levels do, and that's the
11:06:34 choice that they asked for.
11:06:39 We understand the privilege it is to have the
11:06:42 partnership of the Tampa Bay stadium and there's
11:06:44 nothing that we take more importantly than a safe
11:06:49 environment for our team members and employees.
11:06:52 We recognize they raise their families in this
11:06:54 community so we take it critically serious and making
11:06:58 sure we are creating a safe environment.
11:07:00 Every one of our employees, 100% of them, are trained
11:07:07 in responsible alcohol searches and that's not just
11:07:10 the employees that are serving the alcoholic beverage
11:07:11 or the employees in front of the house.
11:07:13 It's all inclusive of every employee that we employ.
11:07:17 So everyone from the dishwasher, the cooks, or the

11:07:22 chefs in the back of the house to the employees in the
11:07:25 front of the house.
11:07:26 Most importantly we recognize that the starts with the
11:07:29 senior leaders ourselves, and so as an example, I'm
11:07:33 personally required, one of my responsibilities as the
11:07:36 regional vice-president, is to attend a training.
11:07:40 And that's not just to attend the training and kick it
11:07:42 off and leave.
11:07:43 I personally sit through the responsible alcohol
11:07:46 service training for our front line employees at each
11:07:49 venue that I'm responsible for, and as we get ready
11:07:53 for the kickoff of this football season, I was here
11:07:56 Saturday, July 21st, to attend that training.
11:08:00 The other thing that I would share with you quickly is
11:08:03 that as an organization, I have been in the sports and
11:08:06 entertainment industry for a little more than 20
11:08:08 years, and I have been with Levy restaurants for just
11:08:11 over a year.
11:08:12 And I can tell you in my 20 years of experience I have
11:08:14 never seen a company more committed to responsible
11:08:17 alcohol service.
11:08:20 Has a zero tolerance for anyone that does not stick to

11:08:24 our alcohol policies.
11:08:26 Any variance to it is immediate termination at all
11:08:29 levels.
11:08:29 So we have to make very tough decisions at times.
11:08:33 We also as an organization have five organizational
11:08:37 priorities, where those organizational priorities lead
11:08:40 to every decision that we make, or resources, how we
11:08:44 apply our resources.
11:08:46 Responsible alcohol services always are our top five
11:08:51 organizational priorities.
11:08:52 So we recognize that we have to ensure a safe
11:08:59 environment in our communities, we operate in our
11:09:01 responsibility when serving alcoholic beverages, it's
11:09:04 just too critical.
11:09:05 And as John mentioned our goal today is not to
11:09:08 increase the amount of alcoholic beverages that we are
11:09:10 serving but just to offer the very best fan experience
11:09:15 that we can and be able to give people that are
11:09:17 attending the game with their friends and with their
11:09:19 family the choice between adult beverages.
11:09:23 So I thank you for your time this morning.
11:09:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.

11:09:32 >>> I would like to introduce Richard Turner of RCS.
11:09:35 Richard has the responsibility of carrying out the
11:09:39 mandate, the highest priority of Levy for its
11:09:43 responsible alcohol service and he's here with us
11:09:44 today, just flew down from Tallahassee.
11:09:47 Thank you, Richard.
11:09:48 Welcome.
11:09:49 >>> Madam Chairman, members of the committee, my name
11:09:51 is Richard Turner.
11:09:53 I'm general counsel to the Florida restaurant and
11:09:56 lodging association and also general counsel,
11:09:58 vice-president, regulatory compliance services, the
11:10:02 contracted vendor to supply alcohol training to the
11:10:05 Levy corporation.
11:10:08 The Florida restaurant association, along with RCS,
11:10:15 over 20,000 restaurants, bars, lodging establishments,
11:10:18 and entertainment complexes in the State of Florida.
11:10:22 We train over 1200 companies, RCS, here in Florida,
11:10:28 every year, companies such as Levy, hard rock cafe,
11:10:34 universal studios are among those that receive alcohol
11:10:37 training from regulatory compliance services.
11:10:40 No training regardless of what the field is, is

11:10:44 effective unless it's accepted at the top management
11:10:48 level.
11:10:49 And I know that from the Levy corporation, this is
11:10:51 true.
11:10:51 Just recently, I returned from Chicago where over 200
11:10:56 vice-presidents, general managers, and executive chefs
11:11:00 from the Levy corporation received their alcoholic
11:11:02 beverage certification in Chicago.
11:11:08 Here in Florida, training is required every four
11:11:12 months for every employee.
11:11:14 Every employee must be trained within 30 days of
11:11:18 employment, and every manager should be trained within
11:11:21 every 15 days.
11:11:24 The course training includes Florida's responsible
11:11:27 vendor act, the authority of the Division of Alcoholic
11:11:31 Beverages and tobacco, which, as John mentioned
11:11:34 earlier, prior to coming with RCS, I was the state
11:11:39 beverage director, head of the Division of Alcoholic
11:11:40 Beverages and tobacco, the department for business and
11:11:45 professional business regulation.
11:11:48 In this training, we also covered parts of the
11:11:51 beverage code, of which in the beverage code, the

11:11:53 Florida responsible vendor act is contained, and which
11:11:56 has certain points of which require strict compliance.
11:12:01 Of a we get through training the employee on this, we
11:12:03 start talking about alcohol, and fer perception versus
11:12:10 science.
11:12:11 Think John already mentioned it but just to
11:12:13 reemphasize, for one reason or another, beer is always
11:12:16 enjoyed a favorable perception in the American
11:12:20 community where perhaps distilled spirits had a little
11:12:26 more a nefarious reputation but the scientific fact is
11:12:31 this, that a 12-ounce beer, 5-ounces of wine, and
11:12:35 1.5-ounces of distilled spirits are all the equivalent
11:12:39 in alcohol.
11:12:41 Once we get through talking about alcohol's effect on
11:12:44 the human being we start talking about drinking age
11:12:47 requirements and how to recognize false ID.
11:12:51 I'll get into this in just a minute.
11:12:53 We also talk about the scientific classification and
11:12:58 more importantly intervention techniques used for
11:13:01 bartenders, servers, and waiters to use on guests who
11:13:04 may begin to show signs of intoxication.
11:13:11 And then finally record keeping is the most important

11:13:14 in order to comply with the Florida responsible vendor
11:13:17 act.
11:13:17 The first line of defense for responsible vendoring is
11:13:21 the bartender, the server, the waiter.
11:13:25 Steps are taken and it's very simple and I'll do this
11:13:28 very fast, it's what we call the traffic light
11:13:30 approach.
11:13:30 There's the green, yellow and red.
11:13:33 Green is service is normal.
11:13:35 Yellow is something that the bartender should be aware
11:13:38 of or the server.
11:13:41 Perhaps alcohol is being consumed too fast.
11:13:43 Perhaps food is needed at the table or service of
11:13:46 nonalcoholic beverages.
11:13:48 And then finally red is of course cessation of
11:13:52 service.
11:13:52 Other safeguards, that anyone under 30 is I.D.ed.
11:13:57 We trained every employee and manager on how to
11:14:01 recognize fraudulent IDs.
11:14:05 There are no more than two drinks per ID.
11:14:07 Then, finally, at least at this venue, beverages are
11:14:14 suspended prior to the end of the event.

11:14:16 Levy even has its own training manual, which is
11:14:19 incredible considering most national companies do not
11:14:25 go this far and to this extent.
11:14:27 I will think you will find some of this on your tab 14
11:14:31 and 15.
11:14:32 In conclusion, the commitment to responsible alcoholic
11:14:35 beverage training by the Levy corporation is a long
11:14:40 standing one.
11:14:40 They have been doing this for years.
11:14:42 RCS has been engaged in training with the Levy
11:14:45 corporation for numbers of years, all across the
11:14:48 nation, which brings me to point 2.
11:14:53 Their commitment is just not in Florida, it is a
11:14:57 nationwide commitment, which is truly an industry
11:15:01 leading standard.
11:15:03 Finally, their commitment is not limited to servers.
11:15:07 I have had the privilege of seeing vice-presidents,
11:15:09 and you just heard one TV, that attend these meetings.
11:15:13 And the reason they attend these meetings is to drive
11:15:17 down the importance to all employees of that
11:15:19 corporation just how important responsible vendor
11:15:23 training is.

11:15:24 And I will tell you this.
11:15:25 And I have a little experience in this.
11:15:28 I know of no company that requires top management to
11:15:31 attend beverage training for ordinary servers and
11:15:36 waiters.
11:15:38 And then finally, this is just Levy's commitment to
11:15:41 safety and security of customers, which is the highest
11:15:44 form of hospitality.
11:15:46 Thank you.
11:15:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:15:53 >>> Council, the last person I would like to introduce
11:15:54 to George, right here in Tampa with us and right on
11:15:58 the front lines of Raymond James.
11:16:00 George?
11:16:03 >>> Good morning.
11:16:04 Thank you.
11:16:04 George Scott, 4116 north Hymes Avenue, Raymond James
11:16:09 stadium.
11:16:11 It's an honor and privilege for me to be able to stand
11:16:14 before you and talk to you on this subject today.
11:16:16 The first thing I oh would like to say, you know, we
11:16:19 have talked about responsible alcoholic service.

11:16:22 We talked about the legal requirements of it.
11:16:24 But one of the things that I can stand comfortably
11:16:28 here and say as far as Levy restaurants, it's a part
11:16:30 of our values, it's a part of our system.
11:16:33 It's a part of our everyday life.
11:16:36 As Cindy spoke earlier it's at the highest priority
11:16:39 for a company of our size to make it one of the top
11:16:42 five things that we talk about in every meeting, every
11:16:45 training, every session.
11:16:48 It shows how important it is to us.
11:16:50 The other side of it is, as a company, we have been
11:16:54 able to take this and make it a part of our culture in
11:16:59 the sense of our slogan, families, service,
11:17:04 responsibly.
11:17:05 As director of operations at Raymond James stadium,
11:17:07 it's my responsibility to make sure that our family
11:17:11 serves our families within this community safely, and
11:17:14 part of that responsibility is the control of liquor,
11:17:17 the type of sales that we have, and just to kind of
11:17:22 give you an idea of what this is, specifically when
11:17:24 you think of a bar you think of a typical nightclub
11:17:27 situation.

11:17:28 In a stadium environment, when you talk about a
11:17:33 concession, or a bar, there are a lot of controls that
11:17:41 go into place with, the sales of this and all other
11:17:43 products we sell in the stadium.
11:17:45 It's an inventory count system, it's a control system.
11:17:48 Particularly with this, with bartenders, it starts
11:17:50 with a bottle for bottle program, so we know exactly
11:17:55 how many bottles that we give a specific bartender,
11:17:57 it's tied to the yield of the amount of alcohol that's
11:18:00 in that bottle, it's tied to an actual count those
11:18:04 served to the guests and in fact tied to the revenues
11:18:07 that we bring it back.
11:18:08 So for each bartender, we can do a reconciliation
11:18:11 after an event and tell whether someone has overserved
11:18:14 or underserved.
11:18:15 The second part of that, when we talk about ten
11:18:18 locations, these locations, we are talking about an
11:18:23 area about 50 to 55,000 people.
11:18:26 With those ten locations, they are all staffed and
11:18:29 designed to serve about 5,000 people.
11:18:31 When we shrink that into just a time frame that people
11:18:34 will go out and either purchase a beverage or purchase

11:18:37 a food item, the amount of things that really will get
11:18:41 access to this is a limited number.
11:18:43 And it's really the opportunity of introducing a
11:18:47 choice.
11:18:53 If we looked at a concession stand and there was a
11:18:55 concern that guests wanted a variety of options where
11:18:58 we only sold hotdog and we introduced a hamburger, we
11:19:02 aren't looking at this as an opportunity where we are
11:19:05 just going to sell more hamburgers and not hotdogs.
11:19:08 It's just a choice.
11:19:09 And some of those folks just move from a hotdog
11:19:12 situation to a hamburger situation.
11:19:14 And that's really the whole design of this.
11:19:19 When you look at the kiosk, and I think John
11:19:22 referenced it in the manual, you can take a look at
11:19:24 it.
11:19:24 It's a two-person operation.
11:19:26 It's all manual.
11:19:29 There is a limited choice of liquors that can be sold
11:19:31 in those particular areas.
11:19:33 Just based on the sheer volume that we have, it
11:19:37 controls to the point to where once those items are

11:19:41 stocked and put inside that transport unit and sold at
11:19:43 that portable, it's not a situation where there's just
11:19:46 an overflow of liquor that's being sold.
11:19:48 So I just wanted to give you just a little bit of
11:19:50 history and background on just the operational side of
11:19:54 it, and how we execute this, and how it can be
11:19:56 controlled.
11:19:58 The other point I would like to make is we talked
11:20:01 about the training, we talked about our policies, and
11:20:03 we talked about how we inform our employees to serve
11:20:08 safely.
11:20:08 But I would like to talk about some of the follow-up
11:20:10 procedures that we take.
11:20:11 (Bell sounds).
11:20:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Finish your statement.
11:20:17 >>> And where we sell alcohol, we employ the Tampa
11:20:19 Police Department to test these standards that wave in
11:20:23 place, as well as we hire two independent shoppers to
11:20:26 come in and test these standards as well along with
11:20:29 our management staff.
11:20:31 Thank you.
11:20:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.

11:20:34 Does that end your report, the end of your
11:20:37 presentation?
11:20:38 Okay.
11:20:38 So we have got questions by council members.
11:20:43 >> Should we hear from officer Bennett first?
11:20:46 He has a presentation.
11:20:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer Bennett, do you want to speak?
11:20:52 >>> Major John Bennett, Tampa Police Department.
11:20:55 Special support division.
11:20:56 Also the venue commander for law enforcement at
11:20:59 Raymond James stadium.
11:21:00 And also command the PUI component of the Tampa Police
11:21:05 Department.
11:21:07 I submitted a brief report memo to council dated
11:21:11 August 26th, which talked about my first year as
11:21:14 commander in 2006, some of the activities related to
11:21:17 the petitioner.
11:21:18 I do want to thank council for working with the
11:21:20 petitioner to create this continuance to allow
11:21:23 additional things to come forward before their
11:21:26 consideration.
11:21:26 So at this time I would entertain any questions from

11:21:28 council relevant to the memo.
11:21:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Any questions of major Bennett?
11:21:40 We'll start with Mr. Caetano.
11:21:42 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: On your safe ride home program,
11:21:45 who monitors that?
11:21:50 >>> If we find a need for a safe ride, whether it's
11:21:53 law enforcement based or if it's TSA employee based,
11:21:56 that gets communicated and that person is typically
11:21:59 escorted to the safe ride program, which is housed on
11:22:03 Tampa Bay Boulevard.
11:22:05 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: And it says here, the guest is to
11:22:09 come back the next day to pick his car up, and he may
11:22:12 be or she may be so inebriated that they don't know
11:22:16 where their car is.
11:22:17 What provisions does the stadium have to tow a vehicle
11:22:22 and how many days can a vehicle stay there?
11:22:24 >> I would have to refer that question to the
11:22:26 department.
11:22:27 >> Because what I'm trying to find out is, I don't
11:22:29 want to see any unauthorized towing of a vehicle.
11:22:33 I he might not know where his car is.
11:22:36 We probably need some sort of sticker put on that car,

11:22:40 whoever has the responsibility to tow those vehicles
11:22:42 out of that stadium if they are left there for more
11:22:44 than a certain time, that that vehicle will not be
11:22:47 impounded, because we do have a lot of that taking
11:22:50 place in this city.
11:22:52 And I have one other question.
11:22:53 >> The police department traditionally does not tow
11:22:57 from private property.
11:22:58 That is a private property responsibility contracted
11:23:01 with a towing company, unless it's a criminal incident
11:23:04 and we are taking it for evidence.
11:23:05 >> Maybe the question isn't for you.
11:23:07 Maybe it would be for the manager of the stadium.
11:23:09 Could he please answer that for me?
11:23:23 I'll pose this question to you.
11:23:24 Do you have regulations on how long a car can stay
11:23:27 parked in your parking lots?
11:23:29 >>> Yes.
11:23:31 >> Put your name on the record.
11:23:32 >>> Mickey Farrell, 4201 North Dale Mabry.
11:23:36 I haven't been sworn in.
11:23:41 (Oath administered by Clerk).

11:23:50 >>> Will inform their patron to please come back the
11:23:53 next day, and pick up your car.
11:23:54 If for some reason there is a car left, and it's very
11:23:57 few times it occurs, we run the license plates, we
11:24:00 will actually find out who the owner is, match it
11:24:03 against some of the reports, whether or not there was
11:24:07 an arrest.
11:24:08 To my knowledge we have never towed a vehicle based on
11:24:12 this event.
11:24:13 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Who can answer the question, how
11:24:15 do you control the two-drink limit?
11:24:25 >>> That's a part of our monitoring program.
11:24:27 What happens to that, there's nine managers associated
11:24:30 with the concessions area that patrol those areas
11:24:33 during the game, and that's a part of their
11:24:35 responsibility, as well as the two undercover police
11:24:38 officers that we hire from the Tampa Bay police
11:24:41 department to go in as well, and test those and la for
11:24:45 those instances where this would happen, as well as
11:24:47 our shoppers that we bring in to go through the
11:24:51 different facilities and look for that as well.
11:24:56 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I don't really like that answer

11:24:57 because I don't think it's a good monitoring program.
11:24:59 You have got 55,000 people and you have got nine
11:25:03 people that are going to monitor the two-drink limit.
11:25:07 Perhaps you need some sort of ticket that they can
11:25:10 punch when they get a drink and they have got to
11:25:13 present that ticket.
11:25:17 >>> In this area in our reconciliation process, This
11:25:20 is during the game.
11:25:21 After the game when it's done we do a reconciliation
11:25:24 of the amount of beverage sold based on the amount and
11:25:30 there we can tell if there was any deviation of
11:25:32 someone overpouring or overserving, as well as our
11:25:35 supervisory staff.
11:25:36 We have hourly supervisor as well, that's in the
11:25:40 number of 80, that is everyone's responsibility.
11:25:44 We take it, as Cindy spoke, we train all of our
11:25:48 employees, it's every employee's responsibility.
11:25:54 So even right next to the gentleman or young lady that
11:25:56 may be standing next to someone who attempts to do
11:25:59 this, it's actually recorded as well. If that
11:26:04 situation there's a phone in every one of our stands.
11:26:06 We have a dedicated command center person that will

11:26:08 pick up that phone, if any instances like that are
11:26:11 recorded.
11:26:12 We have a team of people that will respond, and that
11:26:14 person has a zero tolerance policy, where we would
11:26:19 remove that person or persons from the property, and
11:26:24 no longer allowed to work for us.
11:26:25 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: All right, thank you.
11:26:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Major Bennett, sorry I demoted you
11:26:31 earlier.
11:26:34 Proud to have you here.
11:26:37 Proud to have you on board as a major in the last
11:26:40 couple years.
11:26:41 In looking at your memo dated August 27, and you have
11:26:44 been, I guess, monitoring this personally for the last
11:26:48 year, you indicate, you had 92 alcohol-related
11:26:56 arrests.
11:26:59 This is water.
11:27:00 Excuse me.
11:27:04 [ Laughter ]
11:27:05 You had alcohol related arrests over eight games which
11:27:09 by my calculation is eleven or twelve alcohol related
11:27:12 incidents per game.

11:27:13 >>> Let me clarify.
11:27:15 We track each incident through a program called
11:27:18 responder which basically tallies all of our unplanned
11:27:22 events no matter what they are.
11:27:23 We capture contacts with the stadium through our
11:27:27 levels of law enforcement, state, local and federal
11:27:29 that are on the facility.
11:27:31 Out of the 192 contacts, whether they are
11:27:34 disturbances, arrests, et cetera, you are correct in
11:27:37 saying that 92 reported by the officer, alcohol to
11:27:42 what level was involved.
11:27:44 I will say that that did include the two preseason
11:27:47 games so I look at it as an average of about 9.2 per
11:27:51 game throughout the season, which is just around half
11:27:53 of the incidents involved.
11:27:55 >> And it doesn't say arrests, it says incidents.
11:27:59 >>> Incidents.
11:28:00 And some of those are arrests.
11:28:01 Some are citations.
11:28:03 Sore ejections.
11:28:09 >> What gee oh graphic area do these numbers
11:28:13 encompass?

11:28:14 >> The entire facility.
11:28:15 But what I would like to point out typically, most of
11:28:18 the incidents that we are looking at occur in the
11:28:20 general admission area.
11:28:22 We have very few incidents, as we would say, that we
11:28:26 are trying to track out of the club section.
11:28:28 So an added component in our tracking system.
11:28:35 >> And that doesn't include the parking lot and
11:28:37 obviously doesn't include after the game out it in the
11:28:39 community, correct?
11:28:40 >> The egress of the fans, that's a difficult number
11:28:44 to capture.
11:28:46 What incidents occur beyond the stadium footprint.
11:28:49 That's a challenging number because you have multiple
11:28:52 agencies, multiple issues.
11:28:53 >> I think one of the most important things I want to
11:28:55 get through is the fact that we have a benchmark right
11:28:58 now, the 92 is the number, an average of 9 per game is
11:29:03 a number.
11:29:04 And I'm going to speak to this a little more later.
11:29:09 But I think because we have that benchmark, I'm going
11:29:12 to suggest -- and I suggested it last time -- that we

11:29:16 consider a one-year conditional or maybe a two-year
11:29:19 conditional, using that, we have a benchmark of
11:29:21 arrests and incidents right now.
11:29:25 Could you give a conditional of one year conditional,
11:29:27 maybe a two-year conditional depending on how we feel,
11:29:31 and then come back two years from now, and there's
11:29:33 been plenty of good promises.
11:29:35 And it's not that I don't trust the Levy folks or
11:29:37 stadium folks or anybody else that got up there.
11:29:39 But promises are promises.
11:29:41 But we can see what the end result is.
11:29:43 After a year or two of this as an experiment we can
11:29:46 look at where are we two years from now in terms of
11:29:48 incidents and arrests, and that sort of thing, as
11:29:51 compared to the benchmark that you have established.
11:29:53 And to me that might seem to be a middle ground and a
11:29:57 reasonable way to approach this.
11:29:58 I don't know if you have an opinion oh on that at all.
11:30:01 >>> I'll make one statement towards that, sir.
11:30:04 Is the fact that we have had a great working
11:30:05 relationship with not only the Sports Authority
11:30:08 director of operations and haze staff as well as Levy,

11:30:11 and I can say for council's opinion that any time I
11:30:15 have asked them to change the deployment circumstances
11:30:18 for the stadium, because I look over all kinds of
11:30:21 things like emergency management, homeland security,
11:30:23 they have always complied with my request.
11:30:24 If I saw any change in the pattern of behavior of the
11:30:27 fans through these incidents and tracking, I'm
11:30:30 confident that they would address the deployment
11:30:35 scheme and work with me to get do where I need to be.
11:30:37 That said it is our prediction that anytime you offer
11:30:39 a choice to maybe a group that didn't partake in that
11:30:43 choice in the beginning that we do -- we will see an
11:30:48 increase and that's our position at this point.
11:30:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Major, a question.
11:30:54 In your observation of people standing in line to get
11:30:57 refreshments at the game, would you characterize the
11:31:00 line as long?
11:31:02 >>> That's difficult.
11:31:03 Unfortunately I'm pretty much contained to the command
11:31:06 room.
11:31:06 So we have 191 officers on the line level that are in
11:31:09 the concession areas as well as the stands.

11:31:14 So unfortunately, it always looks busy to me when I go
11:31:17 out and respond, or I try and survey something.
11:31:19 But I wouldn't be able to answer.
11:31:24 >> I don't know who the right person to ask, maybe the
11:31:27 gentleman who is in charge of operations.
11:31:28 My concern is -- and you characterize these ten new
11:31:33 bars as being very busy, because they are 55,000 fans,
11:31:38 there are ten bars, if you do the math, they would be
11:31:40 very busy.
11:31:41 I have no doubt that the Levy people are sincere and
11:31:46 conscientiously training people although I don't
11:31:49 understand how training the dishwashers affect the
11:31:52 safety of the fans.
11:31:53 But my concern is that we have people who are selling
11:31:57 drinks, selling, selling, selling, taking money,
11:31:59 checking IDs, that they don't really have a
11:32:03 leisurely enough pace to evaluate the intoxication
11:32:06 level of the people buying the drinks, and if somebody
11:32:11 is really loaded, they are not going to be the one to
11:32:14 go by the drinks.
11:32:15 They will give the money to their more sober friend
11:32:17 and have them go buy the drinks.

11:32:19 How do awe dress that?
11:32:21 >> That's part of the dish washing training as well.
11:32:24 We realize we have ancillary employees that may not be
11:32:28 at the point of sale but are within the stadium as
11:32:30 well.
11:32:31 So they are trained also so that if we spot someone
11:32:35 staggering down the aisle or walking with a drink, we
11:32:37 are also trained to remove those drinks from their
11:32:39 hands and to watch for the pass-off.
11:32:43 As far as our bartenders that will work at these
11:32:45 portables, they are professionally trained bartenders
11:32:48 that work, that are used to work in these high volume,
11:32:51 high end environments, and that's part of meetings
11:32:57 with them, part of their training, so in their
11:33:00 environment, they are looking at their line.
11:33:04 Part of that line and part of that queuing helps us to
11:33:07 determine, if there's someone standing in line, maybe
11:33:09 a little bit bilge rent, a little loud, just can't
11:33:15 stand possibly, part of that helps us in making that
11:33:18 determination on whether we read light this person,
11:33:21 green light this person, or yellow light this person.
11:33:24 And then most times, particularly in the bar

11:33:28 situation, most of the fans in Raymond James stadium
11:33:31 are season ticket holders so they generally sit in the
11:33:35 same area, and our surveys and cashiers and bartenders
11:33:40 get to know these fans.
11:33:41 When they see them they know them, they can recognize
11:33:43 them, so they will be able to know if there's a
11:33:45 difference in their mannerism over the different
11:33:47 games.
11:33:49 >> One more quick question.
11:33:50 I read that other stadiums, if somebody is caught out
11:33:53 of line, you know, being drunk and obnoxious, that
11:33:56 they get their season tickets canceled and not renewed
11:33:58 in the future.
11:33:59 That's one thing.
11:34:01 And the other thing, people can make cell phone calls
11:34:03 if the person sitting next to them is being really
11:34:06 obnoxious and call security unbeknownst to the person
11:34:10 next door and get them hauled off.
11:34:12 Have you all ever considered those two things?
11:34:14 >> We can get the Buccaneers to talk about the season
11:34:17 tickets.
11:34:17 But I do know we have a mechanism in place to report

11:34:21 fan behavior, as well as a part of that, alcohol
11:34:26 related ejection, looking at that number.
11:34:28 A lot of times, that's either a fan or an employee of
11:34:32 the stadium, recognizing that there is someone who has
11:34:35 gotten out of line, who has taken that alcohol, say
11:34:39 you don't enjoy the right to be here today and we are
11:34:41 going to ask you to leave the stadium.
11:34:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner, do you want rebuttal?
11:34:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The public.
11:34:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
11:34:56 wants to speak on item 39?
11:35:12 >>> Good morning.
11:35:13 Or good afternoon.
11:35:14 I'm Ellen Snelling, the co-chair of the alcohol
11:35:18 coalition and I have something to hand out that's not
11:35:20 directly related to this but it's the alcohol and drug
11:35:22 indicator report for Hillsborough County.
11:35:24 Is it okay if I bring it up to you?
11:35:28 I'm here today out of concern about this particular
11:35:42 wet zoning.
11:35:43 My concern is that if the Buccaneer stadium is allowed
11:35:48 to have full liquor throughout the stadium that they

11:35:51 will have another choice, which will be mixed drinks,
11:35:54 and there certainly is a possibility that there will
11:35:57 be more alcohol consumed and more alcohol related
11:35:59 incidents, not only in the stadium but also outside
11:36:03 the stadium which is one of our concerns, is impaired
11:36:06 driving.
11:36:08 I have a few statistics that I wanted to bring up.
11:36:11 Hillsborough County has the highest number of DUI
11:36:14 arrests in the whole state.
11:36:15 7,054 DUI arrests in 2006.
11:36:19 This is about 3,000 higher than the next county.
11:36:23 I believe it's Broward.
11:36:25 We have 1,939 alcohol related crashes, 1,332 alcohol
11:36:30 related injuries, and 59 fatalities in 2005, which is
11:36:35 the last year we have those statistics.
11:36:38 Every alcohol vendor in the county has a
11:36:41 responsibility to try to make sure that their patrons
11:36:44 are not overserved, they don't serve underage, and it
11:36:47 sounds like we had an excellent presentation about
11:36:49 Levy, and their policies and training, and I don't
11:36:53 have any questions.
11:36:55 They are one of the best in the country as far as

11:36:56 working with concessions.
11:36:59 But the bottom line to me is that there's an awful lot
11:37:02 of drinking going on at football games in general, at
11:37:05 NFL games.
11:37:06 We have an alcohol saturated environment.
11:37:09 People are drinking before they even come in the door.
11:37:12 There's self hours of tailgating.
11:37:14 We can't really compare the stadium to the Tropicana
11:37:18 Field or St. Pete Times Forum because you don't have 3
11:37:22 hours of tailgating before the games.
11:37:24 We don't have the crowd sizes.
11:37:26 We don't have the level of drinking.
11:37:27 So that's one really big difference.
11:37:29 Even though they already have the full liquor they
11:37:32 have a different type of crowd.
11:37:35 There are some statistics available from the Division
11:37:37 of Alcoholic Beverages and tobacco agents, at the USF
11:37:41 games at Raymond James stadium, and there were 67
11:37:44 arrests made in 2006 for underage possession.
11:37:48 And I realize that it sounds like the additional mixed
11:37:51 drinks wouldn't affect USF teams.
11:37:54 I want to Britt up that we do have an underage

11:37:56 drinking problem at the games.
11:37:57 A lot of these can be in the parking lot.
11:37:59 They all don't occur inside and they may have fake
11:38:02 IDs but it is something to keep in mind.
11:38:05 Another thing is that Hillsborough County sheriff's
11:38:06 office has something called a last drink survey that
11:38:09 they conduct.
11:38:09 It's part of the responsible vendor program.
11:38:12 They ask people who are arrested for DUI, and of
11:38:16 course this is the Hillsborough County sheriff's
11:38:17 office where they have been drinking.
11:38:19 And according to the statistics, Raymond James stadium
11:38:22 came up 12 times as a source of alcohol, in a period
11:38:26 of about three months, of course, during the football
11:38:29 season, basically, in 2006.
11:38:32 And you may think that's not a large number but you
11:38:34 have to remember this is Hillsborough County sheriff's
11:38:35 office getting people in the county.
11:38:37 And it's kind of the tip of the iceberg.
11:38:39 Not everybody who drives impaired is arrested.
11:38:43 (Bell sounds).
11:38:44 I just want to say as a coalition we are just

11:38:46 concerned.
11:38:46 But I do agree with council member Dingfelder that a
11:38:50 one-year conditional I think would be a really good
11:38:52 idea, just to see what the effect actually is.
11:38:55 Thank you.
11:39:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:39:03 >>> My name is Susan Carrigan, Hillsborough County
11:39:11 alcohol coalition.
11:39:12 We have been around 20 years and formed to work on
11:39:14 abuse issues and the community leaders and citizens.
11:39:17 I just want to let you know in the last five years, we
11:39:20 have received federal funding to work on underage
11:39:22 drinking and alcohol issues as well as other abuse
11:39:26 issues.
11:39:26 Recently in this state we received a grant which is
11:39:29 the substance abuse guide grant.
11:39:32 And our county was picked.
11:39:33 Every county has one but our county was picked for DUI
11:39:37 fatalities so they are sending money down to us to
11:39:40 work with you, community leaders, to reduce DUI
11:39:42 fatalities.
11:39:43 And it's kind of frustrating that every time I open

11:39:47 the newspaper, I see somebody else, responsible liquor
11:39:52 license and they want to serve more alcohol.
11:39:54 It's just that one of -- we go on science based
11:40:00 strategies.
11:40:00 I'm not a prohibitionist.
11:40:02 I drink alcohol.
11:40:03 The bottom line is one of the science based strategies
11:40:06 is to reduce excess.
11:40:07 So allowing more liquor is not going to help us in
11:40:10 this issue.
11:40:11 And I am a Bucs fan.
11:40:15 I go to the games.
11:40:16 And I have to tell you, I'm a little confused on the
11:40:18 two drink limit because I sit about eleven feet up
11:40:22 from the -- seats up from the field and I have not yet
11:40:25 been to a game when I see a gentleman or more than one
11:40:27 come down with two beers, drink it, a half hour later
11:40:30 comes down with two beers, drink it.
11:40:32 A half hour he comes down with two more beers.
11:40:34 And I'm astounded how much alcohol people can take in.
11:40:38 I'm like, wow, you know.
11:40:39 So it's not just a two-drink limit here.

11:40:42 You are talking about people that are going up every
11:40:44 half hour and getting alcohol.
11:40:46 And it sound good.
11:40:49 And I respect the decision that you are going to come
11:40:52 to.
11:40:52 But two, if you are going to let this happen, do a
11:40:56 one-year conditional, look at the arrest of ejections
11:41:00 from the stand and look at the DUI arrests around the
11:41:03 stadium.
11:41:04 But I would like to ask not to do this.
11:41:07 But I just wanted to state my opinion.
11:41:11 Thank you.
11:41:24 >>> My name is concern Hernandez.
11:41:26 I have been sworn in.
11:41:27 Thank you for the sign.
11:41:28 I am an alcohol awareness instructor, DUI instructor
11:41:34 and I have my own responsible vendor program and I
11:41:36 have trained bars and establishments.
11:41:39 I am affiliated with a couple of different
11:41:41 organizations.
11:41:41 I am here today representing myself as a community
11:41:44 member.

11:41:45 I am a professionally trained bartender, as I have
11:41:47 stated before, before the council.
11:41:49 And I have experience in this area.
11:41:51 I am greatly concerned, and I do not agree that this
11:41:54 is something that should be passed.
11:41:58 Some questions that have come up.
11:42:00 One standard drink, what Levy said they will be
11:42:03 serving.
11:42:03 I'm wondering what cup size that would be in.
11:42:07 An ounce and a quarter or ounce and a half of liquor,
11:42:09 is that going to be served in a 12-ounce cup with a
11:42:13 nonalcoholic beverage or served in a 6-ounce cup at
11:42:16 which point they can consume it quicker?
11:42:17 The questions that were brought up before, two drink
11:42:21 limit as they come up, or two drinks at a time?
11:42:25 With all due respect in my experience it is hard
11:42:28 enough to figure out who is drink wag when you are in
11:42:30 a bar setting with a few hundred people.
11:42:33 Let's put about 6500 people and see how they are going
11:42:36 to figure this out.
11:42:37 Now the sites they are saying and the places they have
11:42:39 throughout the stadium and they will have people

11:42:41 checking on them, two PD officers, with all due
11:42:43 respect that's not everyone close enough.
11:42:45 I don't see how the control can possibly happen when
11:42:47 you have this mass number of people all in one
11:42:50 setting.
11:42:52 And with due respect, the City of Tampa does have to
11:43:01 consider how we are a good neighbor to the rest of our
11:43:03 outlying county.
11:43:06 To Hillsborough County, Pasco County, Pinellas County,
11:43:09 because last time I checked these stands were -- fans
11:43:11 were not staying the night at Raymond James stadium so
11:43:14 all of the things they are doing in the stadium, I
11:43:17 applaud them, but these fans are going to leave.
11:43:20 It is easy to spot a falling down drunk.
11:43:26 It is not so easy to spot the impaired person.
11:43:29 And that is where they are going to be leaving.
11:43:33 Outside of the containment, the responsibility, if
11:43:37 that's what they want to Dahl call it, the training of
11:43:40 the servers, which I would like to question, who is
11:43:42 pouring the drinks, are they free flowing drinks, and
11:43:46 when they figure out how much liquor has been served
11:43:48 by the bottle.

11:43:49 That's after they have been served.
11:43:50 Not before.
11:43:51 So that person that has been overserved, people who
11:43:55 have been overserved that they can now check with the
11:43:58 bottle count is already out on our streets.
11:44:00 And not just with DUI but what about other alcohol
11:44:03 related, domestic violence?
11:44:05 People are going from our areas, from Raymond James
11:44:07 stadium to different parts of the county, Pinellas
11:44:09 County, Pasco County, everywhere, and what is the
11:44:13 impact on those communities?
11:44:16 Adding more alcohol into a situation that already has
11:44:19 it.
11:44:20 This in my opinion is not about choice.
11:44:22 This is about more alcohol.
11:44:27 It can't possibly make our DUI situation any better.
11:44:34 There's more alcohol being served.
11:44:35 I don't see how, with all of the precautions that Levy
11:44:38 has obviously put into place, that they can truly keep
11:44:42 track of these people once they leave the stadium.
11:44:46 And I think that we would like to consider that.
11:44:48 I would hope that you would consider that as council

11:44:51 and vote this down.
11:44:53 Thank you.
11:44:53 (Bell sounds).
11:44:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
11:44:56 Okay, petitioner, you may rebuttal.
11:45:03 >>> To fully respond I may need to call George in just
11:45:06 a second but councilman Dingfelder, just to address
11:45:09 your point.
11:45:10 We thought very long and hard about the one year
11:45:12 conditional and we are not in a position to agree to
11:45:14 one year conditional.
11:45:18 I think ordinances limit you at one year but the one
11:45:22 year is to conditions where there is no track record.
11:45:25 We have the best possible track record and the best
11:45:27 possible statistics that you can ask for.
11:45:29 There's no other case in which a one-year conditional
11:45:31 has been offered where you actually have a track
11:45:33 record with 14,000 fans who are served liquor, and as
11:45:38 the major has mentioned, it seems like the cub seat
11:45:45 areas are not a problem.
11:45:46 We don't expect that at all to be a problem in the
11:45:49 general seating areas.

11:45:50 Mr. Caetano, the two drinks, it isn't a ticket of
11:45:54 course, but that's exactly why the policy that is Levy
11:45:58 enforces and the policies in the zoning conditions are
11:46:01 so crucial.
11:46:01 Not only are we limiting drinks in size, so that you
11:46:04 are getting 16% less than you might receive in a
11:46:08 12-ounce beer, but we have got these points of service
11:46:12 checks to make sure that we are looking at people as
11:46:14 they come, and again if you are serving the mention
11:46:17 mixed drinks you know the first quarter may be
11:46:20 different from the third quarter and you are going to
11:46:22 be watching for it.
11:46:23 That's what our Levy employees are trained to do.
11:46:25 That's what they are going to do at the point of
11:46:28 service.
11:46:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Marshall, since you mentioned
11:46:31 my name.
11:46:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Let him finish.
11:46:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I need to clarify something.
11:46:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Let mim him finish the statement.
11:46:39 >>> I'll finish and then be glad to answer any
11:46:41 questions, Mr. Dingfelder.

11:46:44 And I think it's important to understand, in the
11:46:49 binder, this is a privilege that's not exceptional.
11:46:51 It's not exceptional here in Tampa.
11:46:54 It is every other major sporting venue permits it.
11:46:57 It's not exceptional in Florida because the other two
11:46:59 NFL franchises and he have other major professional
11:47:02 sporting venue in the state allows for this.
11:47:05 What we are asking for is something allowed in the
11:47:08 industry and given that fact, given that fact, we are
11:47:10 still willing to agree to three conditions that are
11:47:13 unheard of, and we are going to go not just on policy,
11:47:17 because we understand that policies are something that
11:47:20 could change if Levy changed.
11:47:21 If Levy changes, these policies are in place, and
11:47:25 there's no other professional franchise that we are
11:47:27 aware of anywhere, much less in Florida, that's
11:47:29 willing to agree to these far reaching legal
11:47:32 conditions.
11:47:34 Finally, just with respect to statistics.
11:47:35 There are not going to be underage problems.
11:47:39 There were 12 incidents with under age drinkers at
11:47:41 Raymond James stadium and those are alcohol and

11:47:43 nonalcohol related.
11:47:44 Even if purchased the same ratio for alcohol and
11:47:48 nonalcohol related incidents, perhaps there were six
11:47:51 underage drinking incidents at Raymond James stadium.
11:47:53 And that's amazing and really a testament with that
11:47:56 many people with the excellent law enforcement
11:48:00 personnel present and the personnel at Raymond James
11:48:03 stadium, there were 66,000 fans a game, that all we
11:48:06 are getting is six, and of course that is
11:48:11 unbelievable.
11:48:12 I think it also bears mentioning 9.2 incidents per
11:48:16 game.
11:48:16 Ware satisfied with no incidents and we are going to
11:48:18 do what we can to drop incidents to zero.
11:48:21 But with 60,000 fans, 9.2 incidents per game, one of
11:48:27 the important things if you break that down that's 1.4
11:48:29 incidents for every 10,000 fans.
11:48:32 That means for -- and for every 10,000 fans there are
11:48:36 33 law enforcement officers.
11:48:38 So we have a great law enforcement presence that is
11:48:41 addressing the 1.4 incidents for those 10,000 fans.
11:48:44 33 officers that are available to address that, if you

11:48:47 break down the 225 officers that are there.
11:48:50 And that's because of Levy's efforts to do everything
11:48:56 at the point of service to make sure that alcohol is
11:48:57 served responsibly.
11:48:59 Finally, we don't anticipate problems with underage
11:49:02 drinking.
11:49:03 USF is not involved in this.
11:49:06 We are not serving liquor at USF games.
11:49:08 So we feel that concern goes away.
11:49:14 I guess finally I would like to conclude, we have a
11:49:17 track record here which is something special, which
11:49:19 you really rarely face Mr. A wet zoning situation
11:49:23 especially with the conditional use.
11:49:24 We have common policy among other major sporting
11:49:29 venues in Florida.
11:49:30 This has been a practice.
11:49:31 It's been followed and followed safely.
11:49:33 And we know, and the kicker for us is we have got to
11:49:36 do this well, because you will come and take away this
11:49:39 right from us if we abuse it.
11:49:41 And we are not going to because this is Levy's
11:49:44 reputation.

11:49:45 At this time Tampa Bay Buccaneers reputation.
11:49:47 Tampa Sports Authority.
11:49:48 We are all in this together.
11:49:49 We are a team.
11:49:50 We are not going to allow our standards to be
11:49:53 compromised, and for problems to develop at Raymond
11:49:54 James stadium with an introduction of liquor that is
11:49:58 actually less than, substantially less than what's
11:50:00 even allowed now in the beer service area.
11:50:03 And thank you, council.
11:50:05 I'm done.
11:50:05 I know councilman Dingfelder has a question that I
11:50:08 would be glad to answer.
11:50:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm not sure if it's a question or
11:50:12 comment.
11:50:13 You started off your presentation speaking to the fact
11:50:16 that my proposal is a one-year conditional, and you
11:50:20 said -- I'm not sure, you said we looked at this
11:50:23 seriously, I guess maybe as something that you wanted
11:50:26 to consider doing but you said we can't.
11:50:29 I think I know legally why you can't, and I give you
11:50:32 the opportunity to say legally why you feel you can't

11:50:36 as compared to me saying it a minute from now.
11:50:40 >>> Absolutely.
11:50:41 I think the first reason is that this will change
11:50:44 staffing at the stadium, will require additional
11:50:48 people, will be buying a lot of additional equipment
11:50:51 for the different kiosks that are there.
11:50:54 This is ten kiosks.
11:50:56 Not just the hardware.
11:50:58 It's the design and consulting.
11:50:59 >>I don't think that was the issue I was referring to.
11:51:02 >>> To bring this on board.
11:51:03 Those are really critical issues, councilman.
11:51:05 >> Okay.
11:51:06 Well, it's my understanding from my legal department,
11:51:08 and I would guess that you probably are aware of this,
11:51:10 too, that if you do a one-year conditional, that --
11:51:18 Marty, why don't you speak to this?
11:51:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, section 3-76, the
11:51:24 conditional zoning classification, states that A-2,
11:51:30 that the alcoholic, conditional alcoholic beverage
11:51:32 zoning classification shall revert to dry status one
11:51:36 year from the date of its original unless the City

11:51:39 Council permits a permanent classification by the
11:51:42 process described in the section, after a public
11:51:44 hearing with due notice pursuant to the provisions of
11:51:47 section 360 of this chapter.
11:51:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Translated?
11:51:51 >> (off microphone) if they don't, and if the council
11:52:02 does not grant full unconditional zoning under that
11:52:06 classification.
11:52:08 It would refer to a dry status.
11:52:10 >> So that way they would lose the box seat area
11:52:13 before 10,000 fans, they theoretically could lose that
11:52:19 liquor status as well.
11:52:21 >>> There would be no vested right to the present wet
11:52:23 zoning if they were to go with a conditional.
11:52:26 >> Mr. Marshall, were you aware of that?
11:52:28 >>> I certainly am aware of that, councilman.
11:52:31 And you are correct.
11:52:33 That's obviously critical.
11:52:35 I just wanted to clarify one point of the one year
11:52:37 conditional as well.
11:52:39 >> The last thing I wanted to say on that issue.
11:52:41 That was my point.

11:52:42 I think you have a legal constraint.
11:52:43 I think it's a decision that you need to make.
11:52:45 But you have a legal constraint about that.
11:52:47 So, in other words, if we did the one year conditional
11:52:50 and a year from now we came back and said we are not
11:52:53 too keen on that, you would have to have reapply for
11:52:56 what you have today.
11:52:57 >>> And frankly --
11:52:58 >> I don't know if you could really for what you have
11:53:01 today, that would be a hurdle.
11:53:03 So you have a bird in the hand right now.
11:53:05 You have to decide which way you want to go.
11:53:07 >>> That's correct, councilman.
11:53:08 And of course in Florida we have very strict contract
11:53:10 zoning regulations.
11:53:12 So you have indicated the things that are important to
11:53:15 you but you cannot agree to what you do in a year and
11:53:17 that's in your discretion in a year.
11:53:19 And we know that.
11:53:20 But that's why we are telling you these conditions, we
11:53:23 think are additional safeguards that are really going
11:53:25 to protect and make sure that we do the right job and

11:53:28 we are willing to go to the fullest extent on the
11:53:30 record and in the law to make sure that these are
11:53:33 enforced.
11:53:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Point of order.
11:53:40 Point of order.
11:53:40 Madam Chair.
11:53:41 It is 5 minutes of 12.
11:53:43 We have been on this usual you since about 10 after
11:53:45 11.
11:53:46 You have a 1:30 budget meeting.
11:53:48 You have a 3:00 meeting.
11:53:51 We are backed up here.
11:53:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
11:53:53 Mr. Miranda?
11:53:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much for the floor.
11:53:55 I just want to say, I want to thank Mr. Marshall and
11:53:58 his law firm Holland and nature for making a great
11:54:02 presentation.
11:54:02 Levy, you are not on trial.
11:54:04 You want to come here and tell me how many bottles and
11:54:06 how many drinks of a bottle.
11:54:08 We are not inventory control experts.

11:54:09 You are.
11:54:11 It depends on the size of a bottle how many drinks you
11:54:13 take out of a bottle.
11:54:14 But I have heard some things that were of interest to
11:54:16 me during this presentation.
11:54:21 It says this, on the record, there were two statements
11:54:24 made or three statements that I thought were pertinent
11:54:26 to the case.
11:54:27 A, we are doing this not to increase revenue.
11:54:35 If you believe that, raise your hand.
11:54:38 Two, we are doing this not to increase sales of
11:54:41 alcohol.
11:54:42 If you believe that, raise your hand.
11:54:45 And if those two are true, why did you apply?
11:54:49 If those two statements are factual, what are we doing
11:54:53 here?
11:54:53 What are we spending an hour here for?
11:54:56 Then you said, we compared Jacksonville and Miami to
11:54:59 Tampa.
11:55:00 Well, we are not an elected board in Jacksonville and
11:55:02 in Miami.
11:55:03 And maybe their stadiums are situated where people can

11:55:06 sleep in overnight.
11:55:07 I don't know. But what I am saying is, this is not
11:55:11 going to affect the sellout, people are not going to
11:55:13 turn in their tickets because they don't have alcohol.
11:55:15 They may turn them in if you do have more alcohol.
11:55:20 This is just me looking from the outside in.
11:55:22 When you look at these things, we want you to be
11:55:25 friendly, we want you to have a nice time.
11:55:27 There's nothing wrong with football.
11:55:29 It is a violent sport and it creates a euphoric
11:55:35 feeling when you win.
11:55:37 It also creates a big downer when you lose.
11:55:41 And in sports, today you are in the pinnacle at the
11:55:45 top and in the value valley looking up tomorrow and
11:55:48 that's how it should goes so everybody has their
11:55:50 chance of saying "I did it."
11:55:52 I'm very appreciative of the major's report dated
11:55:56 August 27th, the year 2007, which states this:
11:56:02 Upon review of the 2007, 32 NFL teams, nationwide, 13
11:56:08 or 17, depends how you look at it, indicate full
11:56:12 liquor local sales.
11:56:13 It is the opinion of the local public safety sector

11:56:18 that offering an increase of alcohol by additional
11:56:22 kiosks and a choice of alcohol by volume would
11:56:25 increase incidents of medically needed, disorderly
11:56:30 conduct and behavior, and/or criminal activity at or
11:56:34 near the stadium.
11:56:36 Some of you don't get what I get because I represent
11:56:39 the area near the stadium.
11:56:43 I have had petitions that were given to me, I
11:56:46 misplaced them this morning, but I can tell you other
11:56:49 incidents that are not included in alcohol-related
11:56:52 reports like DUI.
11:56:56 Moaning, urination in public streets, and the
11:56:59 right-of-way, and people's yards, additional
11:57:02 confrontation, one on one.
11:57:04 And it not because they wonder off to football games.
11:57:07 It's because half of them don't know where they are at
11:57:09 that do that kind of thing.
11:57:11 The actions we have in today's society is something
11:57:14 that has to be conquered somewhere or other and I'm
11:57:18 not smart enough to tell you how to do that.
11:57:20 But what I am saying here, if we do this, what is the
11:57:23 next step when the police department in essence tells

11:57:26 us, we don't have enough manpower to go to the park,
11:57:31 Al Lopez, because it's taken an enormous amount of
11:57:34 officers to do the illegal drinking, if I remember
11:57:37 the -- and the city attorney can correct me -- you
11:57:41 cannot have alcohol in a city park unless you have a
11:57:44 specific mandate from this council.
11:57:47 Well, we don't have that power, because of lack of
11:57:50 manpower.
11:57:51 That means they are all at the stadium because they
11:57:52 anticipate a problem.
11:57:54 220-some officers or roughly 25% of the total force of
11:57:58 the police department on any given day is there.
11:58:00 When you zone, you have the right for an alcohol.
11:58:04 It's not whether you let USF or somebody.
11:58:08 The property is given that right.
11:58:09 And again I ask the legal department to correct me if
11:58:12 I am wrong.
11:58:13 Am I right or wrong?
11:58:14 It's not who you can have or not have alcohol.
11:58:16 That place is zoned.
11:58:19 The property, the value of the land is zoned alcohol.
11:58:29 I'm going to wrap it up now.

11:58:32 As soon as you close the hearing, we have already
11:58:34 heard from everyone in the audience, Madam Chair.
11:58:36 I would like to have the floor to move when this
11:58:40 hearing is closed to move for denial.
11:58:45 >>> I understand this is a out of order.
11:58:48 Councilman Miranda, I understand, you have been on the
11:58:50 council for long and you have heard many discussions
11:58:52 of these issues.
11:58:54 The reason why Levy and other concessionaires, it's
11:59:00 something that guests and professional sports venues
11:59:03 and here in Tampa you, in earnest, the Ernest reason
11:59:06 is that as you might expect high definition TV set
11:59:12 because you go to the box and you go to the St. Pete
11:59:13 Times Forum and you go to Tropicana Field, this is an
11:59:17 amenity that Levy as a sophisticated provider of
11:59:20 concession services provides a across the industry, a
11:59:24 cross the country, and for competitors, that's in this
11:59:26 area something that is provided.
11:59:27 In other words, the off of mixed drinks.
11:59:29 So earnestly, when we stand up here and say our goal
11:59:32 is not to sell alcohol or increase revenue, that is
11:59:35 earnestly the reason why.

11:59:36 And I understand what you said.
11:59:38 But I think that's really an important point to
11:59:40 clarify.
11:59:41 And just secondly on security, these conditions, I
11:59:46 know and I regret that. The major did not have an
11:59:50 opportunity to look at the conditions that we had, and
11:59:52 I'm sorry, major, I didn't get those to you on time,
11:59:55 as well as the addition of the four stadiums.
11:59:58 But I think with these additional restrictions that
12:00:04 the major might even agree that we have, since we are
12:00:08 serving less alcohol, a greater chance of doing this
12:00:11 responsibly, doing it the right way, in a way that it
12:00:13 not done in any other major sporting venue in Florida.
12:00:16 Thank you.
12:00:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I guess I'm on the minority on the
12:00:24 council here.
12:00:25 I don't drink. The strongest thing I probably drink
12:00:27 is a diet coke.
12:00:29 I don't drink.
12:00:29 I don't smoke.
12:00:30 I don't dip.
12:00:33 I don't choose.

12:00:34 I don't advocate anybody else doing that either, okay?
12:00:37 But what I look at is the issue of relevance and
12:00:41 fairness.
12:00:41 That's how I weigh my decision.
12:00:44 Let me look and tell you something real quick.
12:00:48 For every sport venue has opportunities to sell
12:00:53 liquor.
12:00:53 Tampa Convention Center.
12:00:55 Okay.
12:00:56 St. Pete Times Forum.
12:00:58 Ford amphitheater.
12:01:00 Tampa Performing Arts Center.
12:01:03 Tampa museum of arts.
12:01:07 Do you not know that we grant people to go and sell
12:01:10 liquor at public libraries, public parks, and all?
12:01:19 I'm talking about a fairness issue.
12:01:21 That's what my point S.I don't drink I.don't advocate
12:01:25 drink.
12:01:25 The issue becomes a fairness issue.
12:01:28 And to penalize one venue, when you have already given
12:01:32 all these other folk the permission to go do it, you
12:01:39 will never eradicate all the drinking in the American

12:01:42 law as it is.
12:01:45 Now why?
12:01:46 Because every restaurant you go to, you can get drink,
12:01:52 more than two.
12:01:53 Come on, people.
12:01:54 Reality check.
12:01:55 It's all I'm saying.
12:01:56 It's an issue of fairness.
12:02:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott, you said it well.
12:02:04 Nothing else can be said.
12:02:07 I say they have a good track record.
12:02:09 And everybody in the city sells alcohol, going to
12:02:13 continue.
12:02:16 You are not going to turn them down.
12:02:18 I think the thing is fairness and I think we should be
12:02:21 fair.
12:02:21 If we are going to be fair to other people on the
12:02:23 agenda we need to be fair to everybody who comes
12:02:25 before us.
12:02:27 Mrs. Saul-Sena?
12:02:29 Motion and second to close.
12:02:30 (Motion carried).

12:02:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I get a feeling it's going to be a
12:02:38 close vote like 5 to 1 but let me say this.
12:02:41 When we talk about fairness -- and I agree with
12:02:43 Reverend Scott on all the issues, agendas that he
12:02:46 performed there and all the places that he named and
12:02:48 everything else.
12:02:49 However, there's something else to be added to that.
12:02:54 The police report here already stated, we have a
12:02:56 problem.
12:02:58 We can't even control what we have there in the
12:03:01 adjacent property.
12:03:02 And in all fairness to what was said earlier, all
12:03:06 those venues don't have tailgate parties.
12:03:11 All those venues don't have alcohol he inebriated,
12:03:16 drunk, happy, whatever you want to call it, going in.
12:03:18 All those venues don't let out 60,000 people at one
12:03:21 time.
12:03:21 All those venues don't have that.
12:03:28 So for that reason, and based on what I know about the
12:03:32 district, about the urination in public streets, on
12:03:36 rights-of-way, on property owners, confrontation
12:03:38 between those that are leaving, I don't want that to

12:03:41 be any further enhancement of those things.
12:03:44 To have that done, and to say this, somewhere along
12:03:47 the line -- and if you look at giants stadium, in
12:03:50 1999, there was $130 mill some lawsuit because some
12:03:56 individual that was properly trained more than likely
12:04:00 took a gratuity to add one more gift of a drink.
12:04:03 And you may only be entitled to two drinks.
12:04:05 That doesn't mean your friend can't go get you two
12:04:08 more.
12:04:08 So these are the things that are in my mind.
12:04:11 If you look at the record, I will have anybody check
12:04:15 the record on me on alcohol.
12:04:17 I'm not an anti-alcohol drink.
12:04:19 I don't drink personally.
12:04:20 I may have a glass of wine once a month or two months
12:04:24 with my wife when we go to dinner. She doesn't drink
12:04:25 at all. Iced tea makes her high. (Laughter). I'm
12:04:26 sorry, Shirley, I didn't want to say that.
12:04:28 What I'm saying is these are the things -- I have got
12:04:33 to go home tonight, too -- these are the things that I
12:04:36 look at.
12:04:37 It's not whether I like something or dislike

12:04:39 something.
12:04:40 That's not with me at all.
12:04:42 But I'm saying for the basic safety of the City of
12:04:45 Tampa, and those around the city, who knows what
12:04:49 happens where this thing leads when you go somewhere
12:04:52 else?
12:04:53 Your accident may not be within a mile or five miles,
12:04:56 within ten miles.
12:04:57 But sooner or later, this is going to happen.
12:05:01 And that's all I got to say, Madam Chair.
12:05:04 I move for denial of this motion.
12:05:06 >> Second.
12:05:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Item 39 wet zoning WZ 07-98.
12:05:11 Maybe I get a second, maybe I don't.
12:05:12 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
12:05:14 If it's going to be a motion for denial you will need
12:05:16 to include the code section which is based or not
12:05:20 based on the conversation.
12:05:21 It sounds like the maker of the motion is relying upon
12:05:25 section 370-A-2, 3, 4 and 6, which is all the waiver
12:05:32 requirements, and in addition, you would need to
12:05:35 incorporate the potential evidence reflected in the

12:05:39 record that shows the adverse impact, which is the
12:05:41 basis for denial, and if could you just incorporate
12:05:43 that in your motion.
12:05:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You said it much more eloquently
12:05:47 than I could ever put it.
12:05:48 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I don't drink diet coke.
12:05:52 I see Mr. Scott drink that diet coke.
12:05:55 I would rather have a glass of red wine.
12:06:00 You have a different element going to these different
12:06:02 places, St. Pete Times Forum, the Ford amphitheater,
12:06:06 Legends Field, Performing Arts Center.
12:06:09 You got a different element going to the football
12:06:11 game.
12:06:12 I have only been to one football game here in Tampa
12:06:15 because I didn't like the atmosphere.
12:06:16 I was a season ticket holder for years at the New
12:06:20 England patriots.
12:06:21 And believe me, I saw many drunks, and they only drank
12:06:25 beer.
12:06:25 And a lot of fights.
12:06:27 So I cannot support the application.
12:06:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Miranda, as the maker of the

12:06:36 motion, I have a friendly findings of fact that I
12:06:39 would like to add to your motion, with your
12:06:41 permission.
12:06:42 Number one, and these are things that came up as
12:06:45 competent, substantial evidence earlier in the
12:06:47 hearing.
12:06:47 Number one, the stadium is in fact different from
12:06:50 other stadiums around the state that were mentioned.
12:06:54 In other stadiums in the community, since it's in the
12:06:56 middle of a neighborhood.
12:06:57 It's in the middle of your district.
12:06:59 And I think that is a substantial difference.
12:07:02 Number two is, there are hours of tailgating that do
12:07:09 go on in advance of a Buc game and I think that is a
12:07:12 substantial based on competent, substantial evidence.
12:07:15 Number three is the testimony of the three ladies who
12:07:17 came from the various organization that are trying to
12:07:22 control DUIs, and I would incorporate their comments
12:07:26 into the motion as findings of fact.
12:07:29 And finally, with a little help from legal, it's a
12:07:33 finding of fact that the proposed conditions from the
12:07:36 applicant, I think we have concluded, will not

12:07:40 mitigate the adverse impacts of the petition as
12:07:42 proposed.
12:07:46 And then finally and perhaps most importantly related
12:07:48 to the public health and safety and welfare, I would
12:07:50 incorporate the memo of major Bennett dated August 27
12:07:54 as part of the record, specifically that says it's
12:07:57 their opinion, TPD's opinion, that the local public
12:08:01 safety sector of the local public safety sector that's
12:08:06 offering an increase of alcohol at additional kiosks
12:08:09 would increase incidents of medical need, disorderly
12:08:12 behavior and criminal activity at or near the stadium.
12:08:15 I think those are all important points that bolster
12:08:19 your motion and my vote in support of your motion.
12:08:23 With that I offer those as friendly.
12:08:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I take that.
12:08:26 I appreciate it very much.
12:08:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I just can't believe I'm on the other
12:08:31 side of this thing.
12:08:33 Strange things in politics, isn't it?
12:08:37 [ Laughter ]
12:08:38 Back to these venue, last time I checked Legends Field
12:08:42 is right across the street from Tampa stadium, is that

12:08:44 right? The same neighborhood. The same area.
12:08:47 And I think they seat about, what is it, 15, 16,000?
12:08:56 Ford amphitheater right smack in the neighborhood,
12:08:59 they seat about 16,000.
12:09:02 The forum seats about 16, 18,000.
12:09:05 So the Buccaneer game down to the lightning games.
12:09:11 Tampa convention center, huge venue.
12:09:13 I mean, those arguments that you are making, you can
12:09:17 count we are the same thing, you know.
12:09:19 Just opposite side.
12:09:21 Then when you talk about, the Tampa Museum of Art and
12:09:24 the performing arts center?
12:09:27 Now, let me ask a question.
12:09:29 By denying this, does that mean the tailgate parties
12:09:31 go away?
12:09:34 Is that what that means?
12:09:35 They don't go away.
12:09:37 They are still going to have tailgate parties.
12:09:40 On top of that, the alcohol is sold on the inside, is
12:09:45 that right? Not the outside.
12:09:47 So whatever is going on on the outside is going to
12:09:49 continue to go on the outside.

12:09:53 What we are affecting is the inside.
12:09:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Legal just gave me another thought
12:10:01 specifically under the new Florida statute.
12:10:03 We need to site code provisions.
12:10:05 I'll sit section 3-73.
12:10:07 I won't read it but it speaks for itself.
12:10:11 And one other finding of fact.
12:10:13 They already have a wet zoning that's in existence.
12:10:17 This is an increase to the wet zoning that's there.
12:10:20 And I think it's council's findings at least the maker
12:10:24 of the motion's findings perhaps that this will
12:10:26 increase and exacerbate the adverse impacts over and
12:10:31 above the wet zoning that they have today.
12:10:33 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion on the floor.
12:10:35 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
12:10:37 Opposed Nay.
12:10:39 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Miller and Scott
12:10:41 voting no.
12:10:43 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go into recess until 1:30.
12:10:46 (Meeting recessed)
12:10:47


Tampa City Council and CRA meetings
Thursday, August 30, 2007
1:30 p.m. Session


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realtime captioning which should neither be relied
upon for complete accuracy nor used as a verbatim
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result of third party edits and software compatibility
issues.
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proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.



13:34:33 [Sounding gavel]
13:34:33 >>GWEN MILLER: City Council is called back to order.
13:34:35 Roll call.
13:34:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
13:34:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
13:34:42 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
13:34:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
13:34:45 Before we begin I would like to make an announcement

13:34:48 that Mr. John Dingfelder will not be back for the 1:30
13:34:51 meeting.
13:34:51 He's asking council members if you have any questions
13:34:54 about the budget, he's going to cancel the 1:30 budget
13:34:58 hearing.
13:34:58 So if you have any questions please contact Bonnie
13:35:00 Wise, for the budget hearing next week.
13:35:07 So the budget meeting has been canceled.
13:35:09 Now we go to item number 40.
13:35:12 Need to open the public hearing, please.
13:35:18 Need a motion to open the public hearing.
13:35:20 >> So moved.
13:35:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
13:35:22 (Motion carried).
13:35:23 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department here on item number
13:35:28 40, for the Westshore non-ad valorem special
13:35:31 assessment.
13:35:33 Just to remind you when you take a vote on this issue
13:35:36 it has to be done during the special hearing and we
13:35:38 don't want to close it and inadvertently close it.
13:35:42 There are people here from Westshore to discuss this
13:35:44 issue if you have questions on it.

13:35:46 It's basically what we have been doing since 2003.
13:35:49 We come back to you every year with the special
13:35:51 assessment request.
13:35:53 It spells out what it is the money is going to be used
13:35:56 for, and that's basically what we are here for today
13:35:58 but there are people here to answer questions if you
13:36:00 have questions on this issue.
13:36:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Any questions by council members?
13:36:03 Would you like to move the resolution?
13:36:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I had an opportunity to meet with
13:36:10 the Westshore alliance staff and go over the proposed
13:36:12 budget.
13:36:13 I feel very comfortable with it.
13:36:14 And I would be happy to move the resolution.
13:36:17 >> I'll second that.
13:36:21 Yeah, I was distracted.
13:36:23 Did you ask the public if they wanted to speak?
13:36:25 >>GWEN MILLER: No, I did not.
13:36:26 Is there nub in the public that wants to speak on item
13:36:29 40?
13:36:29 We have a motion to approve the resolution.
13:36:31 (Motion carried).

13:36:33 We need to close the public hearing.
13:36:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved to close.
13:36:36 >> Second.
13:36:37 (Motion carried).
13:36:37 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open item 41.
13:36:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved to open 41.
13:36:44 >> Second.
13:36:44 (Motion carried).
13:36:44 >>SAL TERRITO: Another special assessment for lighting
13:36:57 district if I'm not mistaken.
13:36:58 Again this has to be done during the public hearing as
13:37:00 well.
13:37:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
13:37:03 wants to speak on item 41?
13:37:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move the resolution.
13:37:07 >> Second.
13:37:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to move the
13:37:09 resolution.
13:37:09 (Motion carried).
13:37:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
13:37:12 >> Second.
13:37:13 (Motion carried)

13:37:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Open number 42.
13:37:19 >> Second.
13:37:19 (Motion carried).
13:37:20 >>SAL TERRITO: Another special assessment for a
13:37:27 lighting district on item number 42.
13:37:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
13:37:31 wants to speak on 42?
13:37:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move the resolution on 42.
13:37:36 >> Second.
13:37:36 (Motion carried).
13:37:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close 42.
13:37:40 >> Second.
13:37:40 (Motion carried)
13:37:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open 43.
13:37:44 >> Second.
13:37:44 (Motion carried).
13:37:45 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
13:37:49 Item number 43 is also a lighting district special
13:37:51 assessment.
13:37:51 >>CHAIRMAN: Anyone in the public that wants to speak
13:37:55 on 43?
13:37:56 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move item 43.

13:37:58 >> Second.
13:37:58 (Motion carried).
13:37:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close 43.
13:38:02 >> Second.
13:38:02 (Motion carried).
13:38:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open 44.
13:38:06 >> Second.
13:38:06 (Motion carried).
13:38:07 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
13:38:09 Item number 44 is also a lighting district special
13:38:11 assessment.
13:38:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move resolution 44.
13:38:21 >> Second.
13:38:21 (Motion carried).
13:38:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close 44.
13:38:24 >> Second.
13:38:25 (Motion carried)
13:38:27 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open 45.
13:38:29 >> Second.
13:38:29 (Motion carried).
13:38:30 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
13:38:33 This is the special -- the non-ad valorem assessment

13:38:37 for the downtown in Ybor streetcar special assessment.
13:38:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone in the public want to speak on
13:38:50 45?
13:38:51 >> Move the resolution.
13:38:52 >> Second.
13:38:52 (Motion carried).
13:38:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
13:38:56 >> Second.
13:38:56 (Motion carried).
13:38:57 >>SAL TERRITO: Thank you.
13:39:03 >>GWEN MILLER: Now we go to our public hearings, item
13:39:05 46 through 52.
13:39:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open 46 through 53.
13:39:12 >>CHAIRMAN: we have a motion and second.
13:39:14 (Motion carried).
13:39:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Anyone in the public going to speak on
13:39:18 item 46 to 53, please stand and raise your right hand.
13:39:24 (Oath administered by Clerk)
13:39:40 >>BARBARA LYNCH: City of Tampa Land Development
13:39:47 Coordination.
13:39:48 I have been sworn.
13:39:51 This is a vacating petition for an alley.

13:39:53 It's generally located in central Tampa, east of
13:39:57 Nebraska and north of Martin Luther King Jr.
13:39:59 Boulevard.
13:40:00 It's part of the East Tampa mixed use district.
13:40:04 The petitioner is requesting to vacate an alleyway
13:40:07 between 13th and 14th street and running north
13:40:10 bay to Chelsea street and I'll point that out on the
13:40:13 map.
13:40:14 This is Chelsea.
13:40:18 This is north bay. This is the petitioner.
13:40:20 T property.
13:40:22 The petitioner is outlined in yellow. I'm going to
13:40:25 show you some photos.
13:40:28 The first photo is the alleyway looking north from
13:40:33 north Bay Street.
13:40:37 And you can see it's fenced at that end of the block.
13:40:42 The next photo is the alleyway south from Chelsea
13:40:47 street.
13:40:48 And the next photo is looking south about six feet
13:40:52 south of Chelsea street and shows a manhole.
13:40:56 And then this is mid block looking south towards north
13:41:00 Bay Street.

13:41:02 So it is sort of overgrown, about two-thirds of the
13:41:07 way down.
13:41:12 Staff has no objection to this request as long as
13:41:15 easements are reserved for Verizon and sewer and DPW
13:41:19 transportation planning has no objection but they know
13:41:21 the concerns about access for the property located at
13:41:25 4219 north 13th street, and I have some pictures
13:41:28 of that property.
13:41:31 This is the rear of 4219.
13:41:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can you live that up?
13:41:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Pull it up a little bit.
13:41:43 >>> This property has a carport located in the rear.
13:41:45 This is located at the northern end of the alley, and
13:41:47 I want to show you where the graphic for this one is
13:41:50 in relation to the rest of the alleyway.
13:41:53 The property that has the alley access is located
13:41:59 here.
13:42:01 The petitioner's property is the shaded one.
13:42:04 And then I do have a letter of support from the
13:42:07 property owner located, these two ownerships.
13:42:13 He owns both and he uses the alley to go from one side
13:42:16 of the street to the other on 13th and 14th

13:42:19 and he's in agreement with the vacating.
13:42:21 And I have that letter I can give you to receive and
13:42:23 file.
13:42:27 It's my suggestion, normally right-of-way doesn't make
13:42:31 recommendations on these, that because the alley is so
13:42:35 blocked about two-thirds of the way down, even though
13:42:40 there's no objection for vacating that this would be a
13:42:44 partial vacating, and we talked to the petitioner and
13:42:47 he was in agreement with that, and we felt that the
13:42:50 vacating should probably take place from about 50% of
13:42:54 the alley south, but I do know that there's several
13:42:57 people from the neighborhood here that are in
13:42:59 agreement with us that live on the alleyway that are
13:43:01 interested in it being vacated and I know you have to
13:43:04 take public comment.
13:43:05 Do you have any questions?
13:43:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Isn't this in the Tampa Heights --
13:43:15 >>> This is not in any local or national historic
13:43:17 district.
13:43:17 We did send it to the ARC group with that
13:43:22 recommendation.
13:43:23 And it's in the East Tampa, like I said, overlay

13:43:27 district.
13:43:27 And I do have a graphic that showed a little bit of
13:43:35 history of what alleys have been vacated.
13:43:39 They are highlighted in pink on this.
13:43:43 This is the subject alley right here.
13:43:45 Then the two alleys in that subdivision are already
13:43:48 closed and I would say about 50% of the alleyways
13:43:51 around have been vacated previously.
13:44:01 >>CHAIRMAN: Petitioner?
13:44:09 >>> David Varela, north 14th street and I have
13:44:18 been sworn in.
13:44:19 I am petitioner for this alley, as well as those that
13:44:22 live within my neighborhood due to some of the
13:44:26 problems we had -- well, more so a problem in the sum
13:44:30 we are children running through the alley, using the
13:44:32 alley to -- I have a picture here.
13:44:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Let me see if there's anyone in
13:44:39 opposition.
13:44:43 Is there anyone in the public that would like to speak
13:44:45 against this vacating?
13:44:47 Would anyone like to speak against the vacating?
13:44:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move to close the public hearing.

13:44:54 >> Second.
13:44:54 (Motion carried).
13:44:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you have an ordinance?
13:45:09 >>> Julie K., legal department.
13:45:17 I don't have an ordinance prepared.
13:45:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Can you bring it back?
13:45:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Could you bring it back at 3:00?
13:45:25 >>> Sure.
13:45:29 >> Move to hold this hearing till sometime this
13:45:31 afternoon.
13:45:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
13:45:32 (Motion carried)
13:45:37 So you have the ordinance.
13:45:39 It's passed.
13:45:39 Downtown have to come back.
13:45:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Actually, it should come back.
13:45:44 >>GWEN MILLER: But he doesn't.
13:45:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That will be fine but it will be
13:45:49 heard sometime after 3:00.
13:45:50 >>GWEN MILLER: You are going to have to come back.
13:45:53 Okay.
13:45:57 Item number 46.

13:46:02 47?
13:46:03 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
13:46:06 What you have before you is the list of wet zoning
13:46:12 classifications from the December 31st, 2006 cycle
13:46:16 for reports.
13:46:17 And what you have on your agenda are the five
13:46:21 locations that either didn't file on time, didn't file
13:46:27 51% sales, or didn't pay the fee.
13:46:31 And I can go through each one and explain to you what
13:46:35 the status is.
13:46:37 Just as a little background, I believe there are
13:46:39 approximately 267 R classifications in the city, give
13:46:43 or take a couple, and whenever these reports come
13:46:46 about, we really narrow it down to, as you can see,
13:46:49 just a handful.
13:46:50 Most everyone else comes into compliance.
13:46:52 We try to only bring you the ones that generally have
13:46:55 serious issues or multiple non-filings.
13:47:00 As you may recall, and for the new council members
13:47:03 that just came back, last year we did amend chapter 3,
13:47:07 section 380, that deals with the reporting
13:47:10 requirements, and we also amended 100 which deals with

13:47:16 revocations and suspensions.
13:47:18 Before council just was limited to revocations of
13:47:21 these types of licenses, and it wasn't clearly stated
13:47:24 in the code how that was going to occur.
13:47:27 What we did create was the ability to -- suspend.
13:47:33 There's a 30 day, 60 day, 90 day, a suspension, and
13:47:37 then a revocation.
13:47:38 And it happens in that series.
13:47:40 And for purposes of this that's written in the code,
13:47:44 when you deem or find someone in violation, and
13:47:49 council, through your consideration, to suspend or
13:47:51 revoke, you consider three things: The gravity of the
13:47:54 violation, any actions taken by the violater to
13:47:57 correct the violation, and any previous violations
13:47:59 committed by the violater.
13:48:01 Those are the three items that you consider when
13:48:05 you're thinking about these suspensions.
13:48:08 Now, if we start with the five that are listed in the
13:48:10 agenda, the first two, obsession restaurant and
13:48:14 nightclub, and the second harbor club, both have filed
13:48:17 their reports and paid the administrative fee.
13:48:20 So we are recommending that they be removed from the

13:48:23 list and no action be taken.
13:48:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
13:48:28 >> Second.
13:48:28 (Motion carried).
13:48:29 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The next three have not come into
13:48:33 compliance.
13:48:34 Unique restaurant has not filed or paid the fee.
13:48:39 We have had some correspondence, I believe, from the
13:48:42 attorney that is representing this particular
13:48:45 establishment.
13:48:45 I do believe they are here to speak.
13:48:48 We do have documentation.
13:48:50 There was a field visit, and notice was hand delivered
13:48:53 to them, and also sent by certified mail.
13:48:56 They were given a one-year conditional in 2005, and
13:49:00 reports were filed, and now it hasn't been filed for
13:49:05 this cycle.
13:49:05 As of now, no filing and no fee being paid.
13:49:10 We can go one by one over the next three.
13:49:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's hear from unique and find out
13:49:17 what happened.
13:49:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question of the staff.

13:49:34 >>CHAIRMAN: One moment, sir.
13:49:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: You said in 2005 they paid their
13:49:39 fee.
13:49:39 What happened in 2006?
13:49:43 What was the status in 2006?
13:49:45 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It went dry.
13:49:52 And then there was another ordinance approved October
13:49:54 6, 2006, and the first reporting cycle was this
13:49:59 reporting cycle and this one has not been filed or
13:50:02 paid.
13:50:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Sir, you may come back now.
13:50:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Cathy Coyle, would you look at that?
13:50:29 >>CATHERINE COYLE: When did you file it?
13:50:33 Because there is no record of it.
13:50:40 >>> I turned it in myself.
13:50:45 To the Nebraska Avenue office.
13:51:03 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Estating that he turned it into the
13:51:07 business tax which is not where it's supposed to be
13:51:09 filed.
13:51:09 It references our office.
13:51:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Sir, for the record, sir?
13:51:19 Excuse me.

13:51:21 This gentleman's name for the record.
13:51:24 Christian Virgo.
13:51:35 I live at --
13:51:38 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If I may, I didn't realize what the
13:51:40 form was.
13:51:40 This is the current reporting period, the July cycle.
13:51:43 This is July.
13:51:46 It was never reported for December.
13:51:48 This is irrelevant to what we are talking about.
13:51:51 >>GWEN MILLER: He went to the wrong place anyway.
13:51:54 >>> Apparently he has filed but even the current one
13:51:56 is the wrong place.
13:51:57 But they show in a filing for December.
13:51:59 >>GWEN MILLER: So what does he need to do?
13:52:03 >>> He needs to file the December report with our
13:52:05 office, and there is a $500 administrative fee that
13:52:08 needs to be paid.
13:52:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you do you understand that?
13:52:12 Did you understand what she said?
13:52:13 >>> Yes, ma'am.
13:52:14 >>GWEN MILLER: When are you going to do it?
13:52:16 >>> Well, I do it as early as -- today is Thursday, so

13:52:20 I do it tomorrow.
13:52:26 This is something new, and it was not done purposely.
13:52:35 I just took this over, and someone else was there.
13:52:39 So it's not intentionally.
13:52:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Be sure to get it tomorrow or Monday.
13:52:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Madam Chair, I move that this
13:52:49 individual be allowed to return by Monday and -- I
13:52:54 know --
13:52:58 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Tuesday.
13:52:59 Monday is a holiday.
13:53:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So do it Tuesday.
13:53:05 Be on time.
13:53:06 >>> Yes, sir.
13:53:07 As I say it's just a misunderstanding when doing
13:53:10 something new, it's not routine, don't even know.
13:53:13 So this is a new experience.
13:53:15 >>GWEN MILLER:
13:53:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
13:53:16 (Motion carried).
13:53:17 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I'll report back next Thursday to
13:53:23 let you know whether or not that has been paid.
13:53:24 >>GWEN MILLER: All right.

13:53:25 The next one.
13:53:29 >>> I think it would be appropriate to have a motion
13:53:30 to continue this hearing to next week in the event
13:53:33 that he doesn't, we will still have the noticed
13:53:35 hearing and he will have the opportunity.
13:53:39 >> So moved.
13:53:40 >> Second.
13:53:40 (Motion carried).
13:53:41 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The next one is Friendo Comiendo.
13:53:47 They have not paid their fee for the December cycle.
13:53:50 I have had in a contact with the owner operator of
13:53:52 that business.
13:53:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Is anyone here representing them?
13:53:57 >>> We are recommending a 30 day suspension at this
13:54:00 point.
13:54:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Make a motion.
13:54:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move for suspension of 30 days.
13:54:05 >> Second.
13:54:06 (Motion carried).
13:54:06 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Finally, the last one is Zaeem
13:54:11 palace.
13:54:12 They did file zero, which also is a violation, because

13:54:15 they do have to sell alcohol.
13:54:18 And the fee has not been paid.
13:54:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Is a representative here for them?
13:54:27 Two of them.
13:54:28 Both come up to the mike.
13:54:34 >>> I just came from the hospital.
13:54:35 My grandmother is in surgery now and my mom met me
13:54:38 there.
13:54:38 She was here earlier and had to leave so I'm here for
13:54:41 her.
13:54:42 My name is Eddie Palaveras.
13:54:47 I'm here for my parents.
13:54:50 We bought the restaurant in '06.
13:54:53 It was October of -- September-October, and then did a
13:54:57 lot of remodeling.
13:54:58 It's not Zaeem palace anymore.
13:55:03 It's black bean, a whole new restaurant.
13:55:05 And I just have here saying that we did zero for
13:55:08 alcohol because we didn't have the license.
13:55:09 We were just trying to make sure that the wet zoning
13:55:12 is still available.
13:55:12 My mother did reapply for the license and that's where

13:55:16 we are right now.
13:55:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't know of your exact location
13:55:21 but the other die day I was driving through heading
13:55:23 north on Westshore and would you be on the right-hand
13:55:25 side, it's a little small location, heading north.
13:55:29 >> Left-hand side.
13:55:32 >> Maybe I was confused.
13:55:34 I was heading the wrong way.
13:55:37 >>> Shanghai restaurant and Westshore club, men's
13:55:41 barbershop.
13:55:42 It's right there.
13:55:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I need guidance from our legal
13:55:48 department.
13:55:51 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
13:55:52 This is a little different than I think the previous
13:55:54 one.
13:55:54 In the previous one the owner of the property had not
13:56:00 filed the documentation to show they were over 51%.
13:56:03 In this case, they actually have filed the
13:56:06 application.
13:56:07 It shows that they are not operating consistent with
13:56:10 the R designation, that the sales of alcohol or the

13:56:13 sale of food is not over 51%.
13:56:17 And they have not paid.
13:56:18 And it's my understanding that they filed late, and
13:56:22 they still owe the city $500.
13:56:25 What you have to look at, the parameters of what you
13:56:29 can do today is to suspend up to 30 days, or to do
13:56:34 nothing.
13:56:34 And what you look at is the gravity of the violation,
13:56:37 actions taken to correct the violation, and any
13:56:40 previous violations.
13:56:40 And that's the parameters to make the decision.
13:56:44 You are not required to suspend them for 30 days.
13:56:46 It's in your discretion based on the criteria.
13:56:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It seems like this is a new owner,
13:56:54 they are trying to kind of get up to speed, they don't
13:56:56 have previous violations, they are trying to figure
13:56:58 out what the appropriate action is.
13:57:01 So I would prefer not to suspend it but to give this
13:57:05 gentleman the opportunity to pay the fee, turn in the
13:57:08 appropriate paperwork, so then put this on our agenda
13:57:12 for next Thursday, with the understanding by next
13:57:15 Thursday he will have paid the fee and turned in the

13:57:17 appropriate paperwork.
13:57:19 >> Second.
13:57:19 (Motion carried).
13:57:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
13:57:24 We now go to item 48.
13:57:46 >>BARBARA LEPORE: I'm with land development.
13:58:05 I'm here on WZ 07-82, location at 1609 West Swann
13:58:13 Avenue.
13:58:16 Petitioner is requesting a one-year extension of time,
13:58:19 2(COP-X) wet zoning, which and on the 29th of
13:58:29 March of this year, this petitioner will be doing some
13:58:35 of the developing on this site.
13:58:37 They are requesting to review the development of City
13:58:46 Council.
13:58:47 There are two cases.
13:58:52 According to the application, the job will be done in
13:58:56 approximately one year.
13:58:58 Land development has no objection to the request, and
13:59:06 to give them the extension of one year.
13:59:10 Just to let you know, (off microphone)
13:59:35 This is the site of the main entrance.
13:59:41 The parking lot.

13:59:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just want to clarify, the part
13:59:48 that's being applied for is just the theater property
13:59:52 and not the entire block.
13:59:56 >>BARBARA LEPORE: (off microphone)
14:00:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Maybe the person to ask the
14:00:08 question of would be the petitioner.
14:00:10 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Thank you.
14:00:12 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer Miller.
14:00:14 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
14:00:16 We have no objection to the wet zoning.
14:00:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:00:25 >>> Susan Martin, Hyde Park village, 1609 West Swann.
14:00:32 >>GWEN MILLER: You had a question?
14:00:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
14:00:34 If this were coming in fresh, 26,000 square feet for
14:00:40 an X petition, I would really have pause.
14:00:43 I was fine it with being there for the movie theater
14:00:45 because it was certainly a limited use subsidiary to
14:00:49 the movie function.
14:00:55 Tell me you are going to reopen the movie theater.
14:00:57 >> We are not, I'm sorry to say.
14:00:59 And I'll be honest with you, the only reason we want

14:01:01 the extension is because we are going through the
14:01:04 process with the ARC and these folks later on so
14:01:08 that -- we are hoping the zoning will be changed and
14:01:10 we won't need this, okay, it will go away.
14:01:13 But if we don't get our zoning and we have to rebuild
14:01:16 as is, we just want to hang onto it just in case our
14:01:20 zoning is not passed.
14:01:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, I'll be honest.
14:01:26 I'm very angry that you closed the theater.
14:01:29 It's my favorite movie theater in Tampa.
14:01:31 It was great.
14:01:32 Have been loved it.
14:01:33 If you are just asking for a 2(COP-X), there's nothing
14:01:36 in this entitlement for sale of alcohol that says it's
14:01:40 going to be a theater.
14:01:41 If you were, for example, coming to us for a 2(COP-X)
14:01:44 to do a bar, the neighborhood would be crazy.
14:01:48 >>> Absolutely.
14:01:49 >> And so -- and what we are responsible for looking
14:01:52 at it as, as a council, is just purely 2(COP-X).
14:02:02 Why do you want to continue with the 2(COP-X)?
14:02:07 >>> First of all --

14:02:08 >> Excuse me, in regards to the theater jeer in
14:02:11 regards to the theater we supplemented $250,000 a year
14:02:14 to keep open so we couldn't afford to do that on a
14:02:17 continue us a basis. The reason we want to hang onto
14:02:20 it, it makes it more leasable.
14:02:22 You know we are moving --
14:02:24 >> It would be different, it would be an R.
14:02:26 >>> Right.
14:02:27 But my understanding is, this is a good one -- well,
14:02:34 it's just wine and beer right now. If we came back
14:02:37 with another restaurant that just wanted wine and beer
14:02:40 it would be a little easier to lease the space.
14:02:41 >> Now that R is --
14:02:43 >>> Yes, 51%.
14:02:44 >> You can pack more people into an X.
14:02:48 Because with an R you have to seat people.
14:02:51 >>> Right, right.
14:02:54 >> If you were to look at this as a blank slate of
14:03:00 26,000 square feet of 2(COP-X) you wouldn't have the
14:03:06 parking.
14:03:07 The negative impact on the neighborhood, you are in
14:03:10 the middle of very dense neighborhood.

14:03:15 It worked fine with a theater. The wine exchange
14:03:17 worked fine as a restaurant.
14:03:19 I guess what I would be more comfortable doing is
14:03:21 making it conditional.
14:03:23 >>> Okay.
14:03:24 >> And that gives you for a year, and then in a year
14:03:28 we'll see where we go.
14:03:29 >>> And that's all we are asking for is just that
14:03:31 time.
14:03:32 >> Okay.
14:03:33 I think the words have to come out of your mouth that
14:03:35 you are requesting a conditional.
14:03:36 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
14:03:39 What they are asking for is an extension.
14:03:41 So this extension will last one year only.
14:03:46 And any other extensions would have to come back.
14:03:49 >> Yes.
14:03:50 >>REBECCA KERT: However, we cannot through this
14:03:51 process modify their ordinance.
14:03:53 All we can do is --
14:03:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Give them a conditional.
14:03:58 >>> It's a resolution that will allow them -- what

14:04:02 this basically does is it grants a resolution that
14:04:05 says we are waiving that 30-day period of time frame,
14:04:11 which after that point we start to dry you up.
14:04:13 We are saying in 30 days we are going to give you a
14:04:15 year and you have to resume alcohol sales within that
14:04:19 time.
14:04:19 If they don't, it dries up or they have to come back.
14:04:22 But we can't change the terms of the ordinance to do
14:04:28 this.
14:04:28 >>GWEN MILLER: What you are saying it's already a
14:04:30 condition because they are getting extension time for
14:04:31 one year.
14:04:34 It's like they got one year to do this.
14:04:36 But does the time last for one year?
14:04:40 >>REBECCA KERT: Yes, the extension time lasts for one
14:04:42 year.
14:04:42 >>MARTIN SHELBY: My understanding is, for instance,
14:04:43 under Mrs. Saul-Sena's scenario they did it -- if they
14:04:47 lease to the somebody else, that complies with the
14:04:50 2(COP-X), they would be in perpetuity in compliance
14:04:57 under the 2(COP-X) under another business.
14:04:59 >>GWEN MILLER: But still they have to come back.

14:05:02 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No, they continue won't have to come
14:05:04 back.
14:05:05 >> All you are considering is whether you want to give
14:05:07 them an extension of time on the 2(COP-X).
14:05:09 That's your consideration.
14:05:11 Either you give it or you don't.
14:05:13 And if you don't, they are going to dry up because
14:05:15 they are not there.
14:05:16 We are going to go through the process of drying up
14:05:19 the 30 day posting period that Ms. Kert acknowledged
14:05:24 then they have to come back in for a new petition
14:05:26 whatever business it was that wanted to open up and
14:05:29 sell.
14:05:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Saul-Sena?
14:05:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: You understand that if you brought
14:05:36 a new tenant that was a restaurant that you wouldn't
14:05:38 need a 2(COP-X).
14:05:40 It would be like a 2(COP-R) or something like that.
14:05:43 >>> Yes.
14:05:44 >> And if you were to get a new tenant, you are going
14:05:46 to have to spend some energy rebuilding this space.
14:05:50 >>> Correct.

14:05:51 >> So based on that, I'm sorry, but I don't feel
14:05:54 comfortable with extending the 2(COP-X) for 26,000
14:05:58 square feet.
14:06:00 It's a very nice neighborhood.
14:06:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:06:03 wants top speak on item number 48?
14:06:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Madam Chair, I understand the
14:06:15 dilemma that we are in, and I certainly can appreciate
14:06:19 and understand what council member Saul-Sena said.
14:06:23 And legally, I understand what the ramifications were.
14:06:27 We can't certainly judge what's going to go in there.
14:06:31 And the problem before us that we have is a structure
14:06:33 that's 26,000 square feet, and it's asking for an
14:06:40 extension for one year.
14:06:42 So that they may find a suitable tenant.
14:06:46 However in, that frame of mind, the 26,000 feet, it's
14:06:58 about, oh, I would say ten good houses if you put them
14:07:01 together as far as space.
14:07:04 In the 2,000 square foot range.
14:07:06 So we are looking at a substantial understanding, and
14:07:08 I understand the implications that the petitioner
14:07:11 certainly has to protect their interests and try to

14:07:13 get a tenant.
14:07:15 I would not be opposed to having -- and the problem is
14:07:20 you have to go back through the whole process.
14:07:22 If you have a fine restaurant or anything else that
14:07:24 comes in there, I'm not going to be against something
14:07:27 like that.
14:07:29 What I'm against, and what I think I will support,
14:07:34 Mrs. Saul-Sena's motion, in effect it's a blanket
14:07:37 deal.
14:07:37 We don't know what's coming there. It could be Joe's
14:07:40 round-up, not anybody in the audience named Joe, I'm
14:07:43 just saying Joe's or Charlie's or Mary's or whatever
14:07:47 and you have an overabundance of crowd that may
14:07:52 interfere with the coziness and beauty of Hyde Park.
14:07:59 And I have been through this many times.
14:08:01 Starting in '74 when we did the first structure of
14:08:06 converting Hyde Park to where it is now and I remember
14:08:08 one young lady that was there, she since passed away
14:08:11 and she was to me one of the best advocates, Mildred
14:08:17 Ditmus.
14:08:20 It helped.
14:08:21 We were able to preserve Hyde Park, the bungalows and

14:08:24 so forth and yet make a viable commercial and business
14:08:27 setting in the center of a neighborhood which is very
14:08:30 difficult to do.
14:08:30 And would like to respect the integrity of the
14:08:39 neighborhood.
14:08:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to close the public hearing.
14:08:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
14:08:47 (Motion carried).
14:08:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to deny the extension.
14:08:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
14:08:54 (Motion carried).
14:08:55 >>CHAIRMAN: We go to item number 49.
14:09:09 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
14:09:38 The next case is WZ 07-105 WZ 07-104, 4020 West
14:09:53 Kennedy Boulevard, requesting a 2(COP) wet zoning to
14:09:56 allow them to sell beer and wine on and off the
14:10:00 premises. The sale of alcohol will be incidental to
14:10:02 the use, to the business, and the sale will be in
14:10:06 conjunction with the sale of cigars.
14:10:09 The area to be wet zoned will be approximately 1100
14:10:13 square feet.
14:10:14 The establishment will have 50 feet as required by the

14:10:18 code and 46 will be located inside the business.
14:10:23 As I said, the sale of alcohol will be incidental to
14:10:25 the business.
14:10:27 Petitioner is requesting a waiver to the other
14:10:30 establishment, wet zone establishment, as well as the
14:10:34 residential usages which are close in the 1000 radius,
14:10:41 within 1,000 walking distance.
14:10:47 I received a phone call from 1100 south Grady
14:10:54 objecting to this wet zoning.
14:10:55 Also, the fire inspection was done at the location,
14:11:00 and based on their findings, they have only 20 seats
14:11:09 to accommodate this location.
14:11:12 Petitioner went to Tampa Police Department for their
14:11:19 review.
14:11:20 Land development has no objection to this request.
14:11:26 (off microphone)
14:12:01 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police
14:12:03 department.
14:12:05 Police department has no objection to the wet zoning.
14:12:07 I do know of one neighbor that had opposition to it.
14:12:11 And there was a concern about the seating for this
14:12:15 particular wet zoning.

14:12:16 I think that's been addressed in land development.
14:12:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:12:19 >> 4020 west Kennedy street, 104. Tabanero Cigars.
14:12:35 My business is strictly cigars.
14:12:37 We have a quarter of the store, the reason why I'm
14:12:43 applying for the 2(COP), the stores around to be able
14:12:47 to compete, I would like to serve wine for my clients
14:12:51 to go and sit down and relax, watch TV or listen to
14:12:54 music.
14:13:01 This is only incidental.
14:13:02 I am not planning to do a bar.
14:13:05 This is a cigar shop.
14:13:07 The counter is merchandise that I sell, cutters,
14:13:11 lighters, so basically my main business is cigars.
14:13:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:13:19 wants to speak on item 49?
14:13:26 >>> I'm going to keep this short.
14:13:29 I do have something for the city clerk.
14:13:34 My name is Richard Reddick, Gray Street, I have been
14:13:50 sworn in.
14:13:50 What I have given you each is a letter written by me
14:13:57 as the secretary of the neighborhood association,

14:13:59 where the association Board of Directors is adamantly
14:14:02 opposing this.
14:14:03 There is a letter with Ms. Foxx-Knowles from the
14:14:08 president of the association stating I do have
14:14:12 authority to speak on their behalf.
14:14:13 Currently in that strip mall there are five different
14:14:15 shops.
14:14:16 One of them is vacant.
14:14:18 So there's a total of five.
14:14:23 17 parking spots.
14:14:27 None designated as handicapped parking.
14:14:30 I don't know how you do this thing.
14:14:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Just lay it on there.
14:14:34 >>> Just lay it on there?
14:14:38 Here you can see the parking.
14:14:41 We feel, one, there's not enough parking spots for
14:14:45 beer and wine sales.
14:14:46 We feel if beer and wine is going to be sold at this
14:14:49 establishment that the cigar sales would actually
14:14:52 become the incidental.
14:14:54 I do not feel that the -- that a facility in this
14:15:02 area, which is so close to the neighborhood, there is

14:15:06 a tow away zone behind this strip mall where the
14:15:12 hotel -- where there's an apartment complex.
14:15:14 This is a tow-away zone behind it. The strip mall to
14:15:17 the west of this off of Grady is also a tow-away zone
14:15:21 so they only have 17 spots, four, five different
14:15:24 facilities that would be in that strip mall area. The
14:15:26 hair salon.
14:15:27 A personal training center, a juice bar, which is
14:15:31 actually a juice bar/ice cream parlor, and then the
14:15:35 vacant store.
14:15:36 So when the fifth occupant moves in, there's not going
14:15:40 to be enough parking for those.
14:15:41 So keeping it short, we adamantly pose beer and wine
14:15:48 sales because we feel it's going to become the primary
14:15:51 product of this establishment with the cigar sales as
14:15:54 the incidental.
14:15:55 So if you have any questions, I'll be here.
14:15:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone else that would like to
14:16:00 speak?
14:16:01 Petition per, do you want to come up?
14:16:06 >>> The parking issue is going to be an issue even
14:16:12 without alcohol.

14:16:13 Like I said, the alcohol is going to be incidentally.
14:16:16 I know about cigars.
14:16:18 If I would like to open a bar I have no chances to do
14:16:20 it.
14:16:21 I wanted to open a cigar store.
14:16:23 I own a business in Ybor City, which is wet zoning.
14:16:27 I had it for four years.
14:16:29 There's been no incidence, been no problem there so I
14:16:32 don't think it would be a problem to do it again, you
14:16:34 know.
14:16:35 This is an opportunity.
14:16:38 About towing, parking, the shopping center on the
14:16:46 right side, everybody parks there, they come into my
14:16:49 shopping center.
14:16:50 Some of the people use a massage parlor they like to
14:16:57 park in my parking lot.
14:17:00 We have had no problems with other owners on the
14:17:03 premises.
14:17:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Question by council members?
14:17:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
14:17:09 I know this is kind of unusual.
14:17:11 But could we put an X on this -- or not an X, a

14:17:19 restricted -- could we restrict the beer and wine
14:17:25 sales, less than 51% of the sales, and/or can we make
14:17:32 this a conditional so that we can see how it goes?
14:17:39 >>REBECCA KERT: Anything would need to be agreed to by
14:17:41 the applicant because he does have a right to have it
14:17:43 voted up or down based on what he applied for.
14:17:45 That being said, as part of his application, he has
14:17:48 indicated that the sale of alcoholic beverages will be
14:17:51 incidental to whatever the primary business is on
14:17:54 that, and that is in fact already a condition of the
14:17:59 wet zoning.
14:17:59 So it would in fact have to be less than 50%.
14:18:03 >> Is that reported on?
14:18:04 Is there a mechanism?
14:18:06 >>> We don't require reporting except for food.
14:18:09 Except for restaurant.
14:18:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I mean, I'm not questioning your
14:18:14 integrity, and I loved your steak house, by the way,
14:18:18 but I just wonder how we keep track of that.
14:18:21 I think the issue raised by the neighbor about parking
14:18:23 is a very logical question, because any one of those
14:18:28 uses could use up two-thirds of the parking spaces and

14:18:31 we don't want to create a problem for the neighbors.
14:18:34 Would you consider requesting a conditional use so we
14:18:37 could see how this goes for you?
14:18:38 My thought is you are going to be wildly popular and
14:18:41 maybe you need to be someplace with more parking of
14:18:43 your very own.
14:18:46 >>> That's something that I thought of from the
14:18:48 beginning.
14:18:48 As you can see, I like small places.
14:18:51 I don't like big places, more familiar.
14:18:54 I'm mostly in the real estate business.
14:18:56 Basically what I am trying to accomplish is like a
14:18:58 place for people to meet and talk about, you know,
14:19:01 business.
14:19:02 It's not like I'm going to have 30 people every day
14:19:07 there or I am going to have an event every weekend.
14:19:10 From the beginning, the owner of the shopping center,
14:19:14 she said, already take into consideration as soon as
14:19:16 the shopping center is full you are not going to have
14:19:18 enough parking.
14:19:19 And I said, I don't think that's a problem because I
14:19:21 am not a restaurant that it would create like traffic

14:19:24 hours, like lunch time, my people don't come.
14:19:28 They come after six.
14:19:30 So I don't think it's going to bother any of my
14:19:33 neighbors.
14:19:34 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: You answered one of my questions.
14:19:37 Most of your business is going to be in the evening?
14:19:41 And the hair salon is open what, maybe one night a
14:19:44 week?
14:19:48 >>> The hair salon?
14:19:50 They open till seven, I think.
14:19:53 >> And the other businesses, you have a fitness
14:19:56 center.
14:19:56 What type of hours does he work?
14:19:59 >>> No, it's personal training.
14:20:01 They do appointments when the client comes in.
14:20:03 They do --
14:20:04 >> That's a one-on-one operation?
14:20:07 >>> Yes.
14:20:07 >> Then off juice bar?
14:20:09 >>> They close at seven.
14:20:10 >> They do the same.
14:20:11 Okay.

14:20:12 So I feel that 17 parking spaces, most of these places
14:20:16 are closed during the daytime and his business is
14:20:19 predominantly at night.
14:20:20 So I don't see a problem with the parking.
14:20:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Other questions by council members?
14:20:27 Need to close the public hearing.
14:20:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Was there a question about a
14:20:30 one-year conditional?
14:20:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I said would he like to consider
14:20:36 that.
14:20:36 >>> I don't mind.
14:20:37 That the be a year?
14:20:38 >>GWEN MILLER: You have to come back and apply.
14:20:42 >>> I would like to come back and do the whole thing
14:20:45 again?
14:20:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes, you will.
14:20:52 >>> No.
14:20:54 >> May.
14:20:56 >>CATHERINE COYLE: May I offer another option?
14:20:58 The first option is consideration of an X.
14:21:00 Which if you think about what you are really thinking
14:21:03 about today is not the operator, what kind of business

14:21:05 he's running.
14:21:06 You're looking at the license classification.
14:21:08 The 2(COP) is consumption on premises and off
14:21:11 premises.
14:21:12 That is, a 7-Eleven, that is a package store, it could
14:21:15 be.
14:21:16 Doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to remain a
14:21:19 cigar bar or whatever he is going to be on this site.
14:21:21 You are considering that classification.
14:21:24 A 2(COP-X) is limited to consumption only on premises.
14:21:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: AH.
14:21:30 >>CATHERINE COYLE: That's another option as opposed to
14:21:33 if he's not willing to take the C he might be willing
14:21:35 to take the X.
14:21:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:21:39 >>> That will be fine with me.
14:21:40 The X will be fine.
14:21:41 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk, you put that on there?
14:21:45 >>REBECCA KERT: That would require a motion to have
14:21:47 legal come back next week with a revised ordinance.
14:21:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
14:21:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.

14:21:53 (Motion carried).
14:21:53 >>GWEN MILLER: So we'll have it ready for you next
14:21:57 week.
14:21:57 Thank you.
14:21:58 Item number 50.
14:22:33 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
14:22:34 I have been sworn.
14:22:35 On petition ever WZ 07-105, 961ate 7th Avenue,
14:22:42 petitioner is requesting a 2 AP-X, beer and wine, in
14:22:50 conjunction with the package, and the establishment
14:22:58 would allow 1700 square feet, the establishment is
14:23:06 closing in the evening at 8 p.m.
14:23:09 The sell of alcohol will be in the evening.
14:23:13 The sale of alcohol will be incidental to the
14:23:15 business.
14:23:16 Petitioner is requesting a waiver of the other wet
14:23:20 zoned establishment, residential uses, as well as the
14:23:24 institutional uses.
14:23:25 Land development has no objection to this wet zone.
14:23:31 I also gave you the objection -- and from officer
14:23:45 Miller they don't have any objections.
14:23:54 (off microphone)

14:23:56 Land development has no objections to this request.
14:24:34 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
14:24:38 My first report in reference to this particular wet
14:24:40 zoning there are some concerns by the district
14:24:42 commander, but overall, police department has no
14:24:46 objection.
14:24:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:24:47 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Here on behalf of petitioner.
14:24:55 Basically this is a family owned grocery store.
14:24:57 There are three people that operate the story, the two
14:25:01 owners, husband and wife, and one employee.
14:25:04 It's basically 1690 square feet.
14:25:11 We requested it be prepared in the ordinance that they
14:25:13 close their operation at 8 p.m. so that you don't have
14:25:16 the late night issues that are familiar and usually
14:25:20 ordinary with Ybor City.
14:25:24 They have been running a small business there for some
14:25:26 time, and they are asking for the ability to sell
14:25:30 alcohol, beer and wine, to go for the grocery store.
14:25:35 Julie is here with me this afternoon.
14:25:37 She's the owner.
14:25:43 They have been operating there for some time, and

14:25:44 people come to buy the groceries there, they cannot
14:25:47 obtain beer and wine.
14:25:48 There are other beer and wine establishments where
14:25:51 they can walk to a 7-Eleven and things like that,
14:25:54 within about 250 feet, and it's a severe hardship on
14:25:59 them not to be able to offer the same services.
14:26:03 We think that we have put enough conditions on here to
14:26:06 ensure council and anyone else that might be concerned
14:26:10 that because of the late night operations that the
14:26:13 other places have, that you won't have that problem
14:26:15 here.
14:26:15 And since it's a family owned and operated business,
14:26:20 it's not a corporate entity of any kind, that the
14:26:22 owners are going to be there watching to make sure
14:26:25 that nothing adverse occurs in the neighborhood or to
14:26:29 anyone else involved.
14:26:31 We have been working very closely with the police
14:26:33 department, and one of the issues that we came back to
14:26:37 you with regarding the closing time, not only will
14:26:41 they stop selling alcohol but the business itself and
14:26:43 the grocery store operation will close at 8 p.m
14:26:48 We are respectfully requesting your approval on this

14:26:51 wet zoning.
14:26:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:26:53 wants to speak on item number 50?
14:26:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
14:26:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to close.
14:27:00 (Motion carried)
14:27:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to approve with the
14:27:04 recommendation that they be closed by 8:00.
14:27:06 >>GWEN MILLER: You have the ordinance?
14:27:14 Which one is it?
14:27:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Dingfelder, you used to teach
14:27:35 school near here.
14:27:36 It says 500 feet of Washington elementary school.
14:27:41 From your previous experience as a teacher there, do
14:27:43 you have any feelings on this?
14:27:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If you see the parking lot at the
14:27:51 bottom of the picture, that's the Washington teacher
14:27:55 parking lot.
14:27:57 The whole school slopes off.
14:27:59 7th Avenue is somewhat removed from the school.
14:28:02 The school is kind of isolated within Tampa park.
14:28:05 So I'm not that concerned about it.

14:28:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move an ordinance making lawful
14:28:11 the sale of beverage containing alcohol by more than
14:28:13 1% by weight and not more than 14% by weight and wines
14:28:17 regardless of alcohol content beer and wine 2(APS) in
14:28:20 sealed containers for consumption off premises only at
14:28:23 oh or from certain lot, plot or tract of land located
14:28:27 at 951 East 7th Avenue, suite B, Tampa, Florida, as
14:28:32 more particularly described in section 2 hereof
14:28:35 waiving certain restrictions as to distance based upon
14:28:38 certain findings, imposing certain conditions,
14:28:41 providing for repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
14:28:44 providing an effective date.
14:28:46 Let me say a grocery store in this vicinity, which is
14:28:49 about two or three hundred feet east of Nebraska is
14:28:54 very much needed.
14:28:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
14:28:56 (Motion carried).
14:28:57 >>THE CLERK: Who was the second?
14:29:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I was.
14:29:02 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Thank you.
14:29:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 51.
14:29:06 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.

14:29:07 I need to substitute the ordinance in this case.
14:29:09 We have the petitioner being WCI homes which it is
14:29:14 not, it is emperors of Tampa.
14:29:17 I also want to bring to City Council's attention, as
14:29:23 you can see from the staff report petitioner in this
14:29:25 property has the appropriate zoning for the wet
14:29:26 zoning.
14:29:27 They are also one of the few locations in the City of
14:29:29 Tampa that is 1,000 feet away from residential uses,
14:29:33 other wet zoned establishments, as well as all the
14:29:36 community uses that you would otherwise require a
14:29:38 waiver for.
14:29:39 So this is a little bit of a different situation.
14:29:41 They meet all the criteria and are in fact entitled to
14:29:44 this wet zoning as a matter of right.
14:29:46 So I wanted to call that to your attention before you
14:29:48 began.
14:29:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
14:29:55 So what you're saying, in fact, is that council really
14:29:58 has absolutely no discretion over this?
14:30:03 That this could be handled in the future
14:30:05 administratively, but in the future you are reworking

14:30:08 things so we will have discretion or that it won't
14:30:10 come before us.
14:30:11 >>REBECCA KERT: Yes.
14:30:12 In the new ordinance that is already in the process
14:30:14 and should be coming forward to you within the next
14:30:16 few months, there won't be anything that comes before
14:30:18 City Council as far as an alcoholic beverage permit,
14:30:20 which you do not have the discretion to compare
14:30:23 compatibility issues and other adverse effect issues.
14:30:34 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
14:30:51 I have been sworn.
14:30:52 I am here on petition WZ 07-107.
14:30:57 Petitioner is requesting a wet zoning for alcohol.
14:31:04 This is about 6500 square feet.
14:31:12 Previously, this property had grant add (COP-X) wet
14:31:17 zoning in 1987.
14:31:18 In 2001, this wet zoning was revoked and they were not
14:31:24 allowed to sell alcohol at the location anymore.
14:31:26 Since then the property changed ownership.
14:31:30 At this time, I have spoken to the petitioner is
14:31:33 requesting at this location, the case is WZ 07-45.
14:31:48 Petitioner doesn't request any waivers.

14:31:49 There are no institutional or residential or other wet
14:31:52 zoned establishments in this area.
14:31:58 (off microphone)
14:32:15 Land development has no objections to this request.
14:32:38 Thank you.
14:32:44 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
14:32:52 The legal perspective of this particular case, I am
14:32:55 going to let you know that we are in opposition of
14:32:57 this particular wet zoning, but I will have you refer
14:33:00 to my report.
14:33:01 And for the reasons why.
14:33:03 Thank you.
14:33:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:33:10 >>> Joseph Diaz, offices at 2522 West Kennedy
14:33:13 Boulevard, and I have been sworn.
14:33:18 Council, some of you may recall this property.
14:33:20 This property came before council back in 1997.
14:33:26 When it had a different owner.
14:33:31 If you will notice, there is like a pink border.
14:33:39 That pink border and the green border formed the
14:33:42 entire parcel.
14:33:44 The pink and green combined.

14:33:49 At this time right now, there is an adult use on that
14:33:51 whole pink and green parcel.
14:33:56 We are going to come in and we are going to cut that
14:33:58 parcel up into two pieces, the pink and the green.
14:34:03 And within the green, we are seeking to wet zone the
14:34:06 red.
14:34:08 That's the cut-out legal.
14:34:10 The green will be -- the red will be the cut-out
14:34:15 legal.
14:34:15 The pink will be the adult.
14:34:16 There are two presently pending applications, this
14:34:22 one, WZ 07-107, and WZ 07-45 which is an adult that
14:34:29 Cathy Coyle had submitted to her.
14:34:33 This piece of property is located in such a fashion
14:34:36 that we are not within 1,000 feet of residentially
14:34:40 zoned property.
14:34:41 We are not within 1,000 feet of an institutional use.
14:34:46 We are not within 1,000 feet of another establishment
14:34:53 selling alcoholic beverages.
14:34:55 We have 6,437 square feet.
14:34:58 And we have seating for more than 50 people.
14:35:01 We need every single-oh meet every single criteria of

14:35:05 the code.
14:35:06 We don't need a single waiver.
14:35:09 Not a one.
14:35:11 Now, let me maybe give you a little bit of background,
14:35:16 and refresh your recollection.
14:35:17 This property was diamonds.
14:35:19 City wet zoned this property in 1997.
14:35:22 And when it wet zoned it, I had nothing to do with
14:35:25 that wet zoning, there was a statement made there
14:35:30 would be no adult use there.
14:35:33 You got into long protracted litigation and eventually
14:35:36 revoked the wet zoning on this location.
14:35:39 That property as well as a very similar property at
14:35:42 6222 Adamo drive, as well as about 4 or 5 other
14:35:48 locations in the City of Tampa, were owned by an
14:35:50 individual who the city brought RICO charges against.
14:35:56 That was in 2001.
14:36:00 In 2003, I appeared before this council with respect
14:36:12 to 6222 Adamo drive, eleven blocks from this location,
14:36:18 and that parcel, if you add the pink and the green,
14:36:21 that's what the parcel was.
14:36:23 And I broke that parcel up into two pieces, a pink and

14:36:26 a green, and I wet zoned the red piece.
14:36:31 Exactly the same thing that I'm doing here today.
14:36:35 Eleven blocks from this location.
14:36:37 When I did it at that time, that property was owned by
14:36:40 the fellow who you had had the problem with at this
14:36:44 location that didn't live up to his word on the wet
14:36:47 zoning and the same fellow that had charges with the
14:36:50 RICO, and you gave me that.
14:36:53 I bring that to your attention because in officer
14:36:58 Miller's report he wants to talk about things like big
14:37:02 problems at this location, and RICO, that was a prior
14:37:08 owner, that wasn't my client.
14:37:11 The police department in its report tells you, you
14:37:13 know, we are concerned, we are really not quite sure
14:37:15 about what negative effect there would be if we had
14:37:19 alcohol and adult right next to the other.
14:37:22 Well, I am going to tell you, now what to know what it
14:37:26 is?
14:37:27 Look eleven blocks away to an exact same
14:37:29 establishment, and they never once mentioned that
14:37:33 establishment in their report.
14:37:35 Now why?

14:37:35 Because they don't have any problems.
14:37:37 And I'll even take it one step further.
14:37:39 That location, the one that's eleven blocks away, has
14:37:42 been owned by my client for the last two and a half
14:37:46 years.
14:37:47 So if you want to know what kind of operator he is, he
14:37:49 operated an exact business that we are proposing today
14:37:54 eleven blocks down the street.
14:37:56 And he's been there for two and a half years, and
14:37:59 nowhere in that police report do you see any mention
14:38:01 of any problems with that operator or that location.
14:38:13 My client in the background check has a criminal
14:38:16 record, and leaves it at that.
14:38:19 It makes it kind of difficult for me to respond top a
14:38:22 criminal record because I don't know if he's talking
14:38:23 about Jay walking, or what he's talking about. I know
14:38:26 what I can tell you.
14:38:27 My client has held a license for 16 years in the State
14:38:30 of Florida in the alcoholic beverage industry.
14:38:33 He had to be fingerprinted.
14:38:34 There's no way in God's earth that he could hold a
14:38:37 liquor license if he had a criminal record.

14:38:41 He's held one for 16 years.
14:38:43 As I stand here before you today, he holds nine
14:38:46 alcoholic beverage licenses.
14:38:49 And of those nine two of them are operated here in the
14:38:51 City of Tampa.
14:38:52 One at 6222 Adamo drive, and the other one on 7th
14:38:57 Avenue.
14:38:58 And nowhere do you see anywhere in the police report
14:39:01 that they had problems with any of my client's other
14:39:04 establishments.
14:39:14 There is some reference in the police report that
14:39:17 talks about that there is known opposition from the
14:39:21 neighborhood association.
14:39:22 I can't comment because I haven't seen it and I don't
14:39:25 know what it is and I haven't heard from anybody.
14:39:27 But I can tell you this, we had to send notice to the
14:39:38 nearest neighborhood association, which is Florence
14:39:40 Vila Oak Park.
14:39:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think we received that as part of
14:39:57 the record.
14:40:01 >>> Well, I have been checking with the office for
14:40:04 three days looking for this document.

14:40:05 And it's nowhere.
14:40:07 You can go right now to the front desk and it's not
14:40:09 part of the city's reports.
14:40:10 I'm looking at it for the first time.
14:40:12 But I'll deal with it.
14:40:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let mow just say, point of record.
14:40:17 Point of order.
14:40:18 >>GWEN MILLER: I don't know.
14:40:20 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I just want so the transcript is
14:40:28 clear I believe Mr. Dingfelder handed something to Mr.
14:40:31 Diaz.
14:40:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Somebody handed to the me.
14:40:37 They handed a piece of paper to all of us that was
14:40:39 from the Florence villa neighborhood.
14:40:42 Okay?
14:40:42 I thought the officer should have a copy so I handed
14:40:47 him my copy.
14:40:48 We just received it.
14:40:49 I don't know who gave it.
14:40:51 I don't know where it came from.
14:40:52 But we just received it so the petitioner could have
14:40:54 it and now the clerk has it.

14:40:56 It's part of the record.
14:41:01 >>> And I thank you for that because I have not seen
14:41:02 it.
14:41:03 But let me finish with respect to this homeowners
14:41:06 association.
14:41:07 They are a mile away from our property.
14:41:10 Our property is on Adamo drive, in the southern border
14:41:15 of this neighborhood association is Columbus drive.
14:41:21 So there is some language in their report about number
14:41:33 of incidents or reports at this location.
14:41:36 I looked at this property in the time that my client
14:41:39 has owned it the last 22 months.
14:41:41 And went down to the City of Tampa.
14:41:44 And I got a printout of what happened at this
14:41:47 location.
14:41:56 The two and a half years that my client owned it there
14:41:59 has been 28 reports written on this property.
14:42:05 All of those reports had to do with DUI which had
14:42:07 nothing to do with this property.
14:42:09 Two of the reports had to do with a disturbance that
14:42:11 did not occur on this property.
14:42:12 Two had to do with a vehicle stop that did not occur

14:42:14 on this property.
14:42:15 One dealt with an abandoned vehicle that did not occur
14:42:17 on this property.
14:42:18 One dealt with the vehicle check that did not occur on
14:42:21 this property.
14:42:22 Two dealt with a hit and run that did not occur on
14:42:25 this property.
14:42:27 There were two offense that is occurred on this
14:42:28 property and that was it.
14:42:30 In the 20-some-odd months.
14:42:34 Having tried to explain and maybe give you a comfort
14:42:37 level, I'll just reiterate, as I believe Ms. Kert
14:42:41 advised you of, we complied with every single code
14:42:46 requirement, every distance separation requirement.
14:42:51 We are not here asking for a waiver.
14:42:53 And we respectfully request that you approve our
14:42:56 petition.
14:42:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
14:43:02 (off microphone)
14:43:04 It seems that this will be an up and coming operation
14:43:08 and certainly if you were to look back on it in a
14:43:10 year, that would give us a form of reassurance, so we

14:43:15 would have that opportunity.
14:43:17 I just was reading the police report.
14:43:20 And it's pretty clear, they are not -- I don't know if
14:43:24 you had an opportunity to see it but I would be happy
14:43:26 to share it.
14:43:27 >>> Oh, I have seen it, and it is not correct, as I
14:43:30 have told you.
14:43:30 I mean, you're telling me, tell me what his record is.
14:43:36 Tell me what it is.
14:43:37 Up at the top it says he has a criminal record on the
14:43:40 top of page 2.
14:43:41 Tell me what it is.
14:43:43 He's never been arrested.
14:43:45 Tell me what the criminal record S.we are telling that
14:43:47 you we hold a liquor license, we hold nine of them.
14:43:54 So I want to know.
14:43:55 It's a blanket statement.
14:43:56 You know what it must be?
14:43:58 Is it a DUI?
14:43:59 What is the criminal record?
14:44:03 It certainly isn't something that appears --
14:44:06 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.

14:44:07 Even if the applicant needed a waiver for this
14:44:11 property, we can't license to the individual.
14:44:16 It's to the state.
14:44:17 That means we don't have any authority to look at the
14:44:19 individual.
14:44:19 We can only look at land use issues. The way your
14:44:22 code is set up at the current date, if you have
14:44:24 established a criteria for what is compatible, and
14:44:27 that is 1,000 feet away from just about everything,
14:44:30 this meets that criteria.
14:44:32 Based on City Council's direction that they would like
14:44:34 to have some more ability to consider compatibility
14:44:38 issues, land development department and the legal
14:44:41 department have been working as expeditiously as
14:44:44 possible to come to you with a new tool.
14:44:46 However, you have to base your decision on what the
14:44:49 tools that you have today.
14:44:50 And right now, he meets the criteria.
14:44:56 The background of the Mr. Applicant isn't relevant in
14:44:59 this proceeding.
14:45:00 And I'm available for any further questions.
14:45:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Does council have the ability to

14:45:05 make this a conditional use?
14:45:07 >>REBECCA KERT: No, they do not.
14:45:08 Only the applicant can K do that but they have to
14:45:11 request it.
14:45:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would just say to the applicant,
14:45:13 I will not be comfortable supporting this unless you
14:45:15 request a conditional use.
14:45:16 I just want to be candid with you.
14:45:20 >>> Yes, ma'am, I understand that.
14:45:24 And, unfortunately, I can't do that, because here's
14:45:28 the problem.
14:45:29 One of the things that I am doing right now is I am
14:45:32 giving up my adult use to get this wet zoning.
14:45:35 Now, it is true that I have a pending application with
14:45:38 Cathy with the adjoining parcel.
14:45:41 And so I don't want to find myself somewhere down the
14:45:43 road maybe a year from now, whatever reason may be,
14:45:48 Tau this wet zoning.
14:45:50 I have in the past done a conditional.
14:45:53 Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately for my client, we
14:45:58 meet all the code requirements.
14:46:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Counselor, if could you put up one

14:46:06 of those drawings.
14:46:09 >>> Present one or the old one?
14:46:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The first one you showed where it
14:46:13 showed green and red.
14:46:14 >>> This one?
14:46:15 >> Yes.
14:46:18 You might have mentioned this earlier.
14:46:20 I was curious about the function.
14:46:23 Because we now are going to have two separate
14:46:25 establishments.
14:46:26 Is that my understanding?
14:46:29 I'll just finish and you can respond.
14:46:30 If I'm wrong, correct me.
14:46:32 So I'm wonder wag the ingress and egress is for the
14:46:36 wet zoned part of it, and what the ingress and egress
14:46:40 will be for the adult use part of it.
14:46:42 And will there be, you know, permanent wall between
14:46:47 the two?
14:46:49 >>> There will have to be a permanent wall between the
14:46:51 two.
14:46:53 A.
14:46:54 Secondly --

14:46:55 >> Is that yes?
14:46:56 >>> Yes.
14:46:56 Permanent wall.
14:46:58 Has to be.
14:47:00 Secondly, if you check with Cathy Coyle, you are going
14:47:02 to see that this one here, almost all of the property
14:47:08 is within the pink square.
14:47:10 The green square being the parcel where the wet zoning
14:47:13 would be.
14:47:15 I would just share with you the previous one.
14:47:18 You are going to see that that one works exactly the
14:47:20 same way.
14:47:21 When we did that one, I met with at that time Gloria
14:47:25 Moreda, and the reason for that allocation and that
14:47:28 split is that it is permissible for a wet zoning
14:47:31 establishment to co-share the parking on an adult use,
14:47:36 but it is not permissible for an adult use to co-share
14:47:40 the parking that's on a wet zoned property.
14:47:42 So what we do is we stick all the parking on the adult
14:47:45 use, and then we enter into a cross-parking agreement.
14:47:50 >> I remember this one because I think I was here for
14:47:52 that one.

14:47:52 >>> And that's why you get these disproportionate
14:47:57 pattern that you see here.
14:47:58 That's why this parcel here, the pink parcel ends up
14:48:00 being much larger.
14:48:04 >> And the other part of the question was ingress and
14:48:06 egress on the building doorways.
14:48:10 >>> No, no, no, the doorway to this establishment is
14:48:15 on the side of the building.
14:48:16 It will have its own entrance and egress.
14:48:20 Number one.
14:48:21 Number two, you see this part of the building back
14:48:27 here?
14:48:29 That's actually going to be a parking garage, waits
14:48:32 going to be.
14:48:32 >> Can you put that picture back up that showed the
14:48:35 doorway?
14:48:36 >>> Sure.
14:48:37 >> I guess the bottom line is not only the emperor
14:48:40 that's not wearing any clothes?
14:48:42 It's a joke.
14:48:43 Thank you.
14:48:47 >>> Any other questions?

14:48:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions by council members?
14:48:50 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on
14:48:52 item 51?
14:48:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
14:48:57 >>> Second.
14:48:57 (Motion carried).
14:48:58 >>GWEN MILLER: What's the pleasure of council?
14:49:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I can only speak by the evidence
14:49:06 that's been presented.
14:49:07 Whether I like it or not is one thing.
14:49:09 And if I get this right, in fact, your opening
14:49:17 statement, what was to the this council?
14:49:19 >>REBECCA KERT: My opening statement included that
14:49:23 they meet all the criteria contained in the code and
14:49:25 therefore they are entitled to this wet zoning as a
14:49:27 matter of right.
14:49:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So in other words everyone if this
14:49:31 council voted no, in your opinion, this would be
14:49:34 reversed in a higher standard.
14:49:36 >>REBECCA KERT: Yes, that is my legal opinion to you.
14:49:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Taking that into account, and not
14:49:44 wanting to spend any more time and money, from what I

14:49:47 understand from the individuals who deal with this on
14:49:51 a daily basis and understand the code a little bit
14:49:54 better than I do, I will move an ordinance making
14:49:58 lawful the sale of beverage containing alcohol
14:50:00 regardless of alcoholic content, beer, wine and
14:50:01 liquor, 4(COP), for consumption on premises in a
14:50:06 sealed container for consumption on the premises in
14:50:08 connection with a lounge, nightclub business
14:50:11 establishment, certain lot, plot or tract of land
14:50:13 located at 5718 east Adamo drive, Tampa, Florida, more
14:50:18 particularly described as section 2, providing an
14:50:20 effective date.
14:50:20 Although I may not like it, I have to swallow it.
14:50:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Seconded as Mr. Miranda stated the
14:50:29 motion.
14:50:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
14:50:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll vote yes even though it's
14:50:39 completely objectionable because I don't want to spend
14:50:41 a nickel more in litigation but I want to know,
14:50:44 Rebecca, when is this coming back to council, the
14:50:49 approved ordinance?
14:50:51 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Before you answer that, just a

14:50:52 reminder, way would like to have is a vote now for the
14:50:56 purposes of the record.
14:50:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I changed my --
14:51:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: She's changing her vote.
14:51:05 She has to have a motion for reconsideration.
14:51:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I didn't hear the vote count.
14:51:09 I think it was 3 to 3.
14:51:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Have a hand vote.
14:51:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is there any discrepancy to the vote?
14:51:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm confused on the vote.
14:51:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move the ordinance again as read.
14:51:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
14:51:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
14:51:29 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
14:51:37 >>THE CLERK: The motion does not pass.
14:51:39 It's 3 to 3.
14:51:42 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It carries over to next week as an
14:51:44 item for unfinished business and I am going to ask
14:51:47 council member Mulhern to review the record prior to
14:51:53 taking action.
14:51:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Next week.
14:52:03 >>> It's actually a perfect time for me to announce

14:52:05 it.
14:52:05 Next week, the chapter 3 changes are in the July cycle
14:52:09 for chapter 27, because it's moving into chapter 27
14:52:14 proposed. The workshops are next week, the 5th
14:52:16 and 6th from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. in the Mascotte
14:52:19 room.
14:52:20 And I notified the public of that.
14:52:22 I would be asking for a workshop with City Council
14:52:25 September 27th.
14:52:26 And that would be a transmittal recommendation to the
14:52:29 Planning Commission.
14:52:30 That would be September 27th at 1:30 p.m. is when
14:52:32 I am going to be asking for that.
14:52:34 And then I hope to have the first reading November
14:52:36 29th, second reading December 13th, and then
14:52:39 the effective date would be January 1.
14:52:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Are we able to invoke the pending
14:52:49 ordinance doctrine so that -- because this is in the
14:52:54 pipeline that we can't have any people petitioning to
14:52:57 go in under the wire?
14:53:01 >>REBECCA KERT: We have discussed that and it's not
14:53:03 far enough in the process that it can be adopted.

14:53:07 I'm happy to talk -- we can come back with some formal
14:53:11 policy on that from the legal department, but we have
14:53:14 talked about it, and at this point it's not at a point
14:53:17 where it can do that.
14:53:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I move that you talk to Mr. Smith
14:53:22 and find out when the pending ordinance doctrine can
14:53:25 kick in, given time frame that Catherine just shared
14:53:28 with us.
14:53:28 >>REBECCA KERT: Happy to do that.
14:53:30 >> It won't affect what you just did.
14:53:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No, but I don't want a bunch of
14:53:35 other things to come in in the next couple of months.
14:53:40 >>CATHERINE COYLE: September 27th at 1:30.
14:53:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
14:53:45 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I ask for the last week because I
14:53:46 believe that's what the new process will be for
14:53:48 council.
14:53:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I believe September 27th
14:53:52 presently at 1:30 you have a workshop on the
14:53:56 comprehensive plan.
14:53:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We can do it right after that.
14:54:02 The motion would be that this discussion would follow

14:54:04 that.
14:54:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
14:54:06 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
14:54:07 Opposed, Nay.
14:54:08 (Motion carried).
14:54:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: For the record, council, we do
14:54:13 appreciate.
14:54:13 I understand you did your legal homework.
14:54:18 Out of good conscience, I cast my vote.
14:54:24 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to item 52.
14:54:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: No reflection on you.
14:54:29 >>BARBARA LEPORE: With land development.
14:54:56 I have been sworn.
14:54:57 I'm here on case WZ 07-112, for the location at
14:55:04 406-428 west Waters Avenue unit 412.
14:55:07 Petitioner is requesting a 2(APS) for the sale of beer
14:55:10 and wine in conjunction with the convenience store.
14:55:14 The store is located in the strip center.
14:55:16 The wet zone will contain approximately 2,000 square
14:55:19 feet.
14:55:20 Petitioner is requesting a waiver to the residential
14:55:23 use zoned properties.

14:55:26 There are no institutional or other wet zoned
14:55:28 establishments in the area.
14:55:30 Land development has moo No objection to the request.
14:55:35 The application has been forwarded to the Tampa Police
14:55:37 Department for their review.
14:55:49 (off microphone) this is the establishment they are
14:56:12 requesting to wet zone.
14:56:14 This is the property in the back.
14:56:17 Residential usage 10.
14:56:23 Another one on the east side.
14:56:27 Land development has in a objection to the request.
14:56:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Would you put this back up, please?
14:56:41 You have got the entire yellow circled but it's not
14:56:44 the entire yellow that's being wet zoned.
14:56:48 Just the end?
14:56:53 Just for the record, I didn't want anybody to be
14:56:56 confused.
14:57:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer Miller?
14:57:02 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
14:57:04 We have no objection to this wet zoning.
14:57:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:57:11 >>> Good afternoon.

14:57:12 My name is Khales Samara.
14:57:19 I have been sworn in.
14:57:24 I'm starting my own business.
14:57:26 I been working all my life, almost, grocery stores and
14:57:30 gas stations.
14:57:33 I would like to start this.
14:57:46 >> Is there anyone in the public to speak on item 52?
14:57:50 >> Motion to close.
14:57:50 >> Second.
14:57:50 (Motion carried)
14:57:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Sir, good luck with your business.
14:58:07 Move an ordinance making lawful the sale of beverages
14:58:09 containing alcohol of more than 1% by weight not more
14:58:11 than 14% by weight and wines regardless of alcoholic
14:58:16 content beer and wine 2(APS) in sealed containers off
14:58:19 preemption only at or from that certain lot, plot or
14:58:21 tract of land located at 406-428 west Waters Avenue,
14:58:26 unit 412, Tampa, Florida as more particularly
14:58:29 described in section 2 hereof waiving certain
14:58:31 restrictions as to distance based upon certain
14:58:34 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
14:58:36 conflict, providing an effective date.

14:58:38 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
14:58:39 (Motion carried).
14:58:45 >> Who seconded it?
14:58:47 >> I did.
14:58:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 53.
14:58:49 >> Move to open.
14:58:52 >> Second.
14:59:09 >>BARBARA LEPORE: Land development.
14:59:10 I'm here on WZ 07-114, for the location on 500 and 501
14:59:22 North Franklin Street, petitioner requesting 4(COP-R)
14:59:26 for the sale of alcohol in conjunction with a
14:59:30 restaurant.
14:59:31 At this time, it is operating on the first floor.
14:59:35 They are planning to expand to the flee floors.
14:59:39 So wet zoning, they are asking for almost 19,000
14:59:45 square feet of the wet zone.
14:59:47 The restaurant would have approximately 120 feet,
14:59:52 according to the applicant, the wet zone would be
14:59:54 incidental to the primary function of the business.
14:59:58 They are requesting the waivers to the wet zone
15:00:00 establishment, residential uses, as well as the
15:00:04 institutional uses.

15:00:13 Land development has no objection to the request.
15:00:16 I have some pictures of the location.
15:00:18 (off microphone)
15:00:59 Land development has no objection.
15:01:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If you don't have any objection
15:01:04 that's going to be suspicious.
15:01:08 [ Laughter ]
15:01:10 >>> Officer Miller: We don't have any objection to
15:01:13 the wet zoning.
15:01:14 >> Petitioner?
15:01:18 >>> Grace YANG, suite 2200, Tampa.
15:01:23 I have been sworn.
15:01:24 Here on behalf of the petitioner.
15:01:26 This is a request for a 4(COP-R) as Ms. LePore already
15:01:31 stated.
15:01:32 This is a franchised Westshore pizza that just opened
15:01:35 in downtown, just about a couple blocks away.
15:01:38 And they are very happy to be in the downtown area.
15:01:41 They are hoping to stay here for the long-term.
15:01:43 And they would like to be able to have wet zoning in
15:01:46 order to complement their business.
15:01:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Two questions.

15:01:51 I was a little surprised to see 4(COP-R) as opposed to
15:01:55 2(COP-R).
15:01:56 I always thought the other locations were just beer
15:01:59 and wine and pizza.
15:02:01 That's question number one.
15:02:02 Question number two, I was also surprised to see all
15:02:05 three floors of the building.
15:02:07 I thought the second floor and the third floor of that
15:02:09 building were typically office.
15:02:12 Or in the past have been office.
15:02:14 What are the plans there?
15:02:17 >>> I believe there was bank Atlantic offices on the
15:02:23 second and third floor.
15:02:24 I think there was also a bank Atlantic branch, the
15:02:28 street level branch on the corner of the building.
15:02:31 But I believe the space that Westshore pizza currently
15:02:33 was in was previously a restaurant.
15:02:36 So there was a previous building.
15:02:39 There was a previous building tenant in there who was
15:02:41 selling food and beverages.
15:02:43 You are correct that I think the other Westshore
15:02:46 pizzas are primarily beer and wine, probably mostly

15:02:50 just beer.
15:02:51 And this particular franchisee and the petitioner who
15:02:53 I represent, he is planning to start out just with
15:02:56 beer and wine, and he has talked to me about pursuing
15:02:59 his 2(COP) license but he would like the flexibility
15:03:02 to be able to increase that to a full liquor use if
15:03:10 his future plans work out the way he's hoping.
15:03:12 Right now, he's only on the first level of the
15:03:17 building.
15:03:17 He's hoping to expand into the rest of the first
15:03:19 floor.
15:03:20 He's new to this building so he's kind of waiting to
15:03:23 see how his business is up and running but he is
15:03:26 hoping to have the funding so that he can knock down
15:03:30 and expand through the rest of the first floor.
15:03:32 He is hoping to be able to have fares going up to the
15:03:39 second floor area.
15:03:40 He's trying to make it more like a sports bar kind of
15:03:43 theme with flat screen TVs and broadcast the
15:03:46 football games and hockey games in his particular
15:03:49 business, and that's why he is requesting the
15:03:51 4(COP-R).

15:03:53 Having it on the various other levels of the building
15:03:57 would just allow him that ability to be able to expand
15:04:00 into that space in the future as he hopes.
15:04:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
15:04:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My question is, or just an
15:04:07 awareness that your petitioner is here, that there is
15:04:09 a market for breakfast pizzas in downtown Tampa and
15:04:13 currently doesn't open till eleven and I think you
15:04:15 need to make him aware that lots of office people like
15:04:18 to have breakfast pizza, not with beer and wine as a
15:04:22 part of that.
15:04:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: With or without beer.
15:04:26 >>> Right.
15:04:28 He is open for lunch and dinner right now but I will
15:04:30 try to ask him to consider that.
15:04:32 >> Tell him there's an untapped market.
15:04:38 >>> But as staff said, this is a request for an R
15:04:40 zoning.
15:04:41 So anything that goes into that space, he intends to
15:04:46 keep it as a restaurant concept.
15:04:48 But it is probably going to be a little different from
15:04:50 the other Westshore pizzas that you know of in the

15:04:55 sense that he's planning to make it more like a sports
15:04:57 bar feel.
15:04:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
15:05:00 wants to speak on item 53?
15:05:02 >> Move to close.
15:05:04 >> Second.
15:05:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Question on the motion?
15:05:06 Mr. Caetano?
15:05:07 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: As far as handicapped
15:05:09 accessibility, how does a client get upper ifs they
15:05:14 are in a wheelchair?
15:05:16 >>> That's a very good question, Mr. Caetano.
15:05:19 And I'm not really sure.
15:05:20 I know that there is a staircase, there is an internal
15:05:23 staircase in there right now.
15:05:26 I'm not sure if there are elevators inside the
15:05:30 building.
15:05:31 I don't know if there might have been existing
15:05:33 elevators that were in there as part of the support
15:05:36 for the bank Atlantic offices in there.
15:05:39 I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to that.
15:05:42 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: This is strictly for on-premises

15:05:45 consumption?
15:05:46 >>> Yes.
15:05:48 On-premises couples, incidental use, in conjunction
15:05:51 with a restaurant.
15:05:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Okay.
15:05:54 >>> And I can have legal confirm that.
15:05:56 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second to close.
15:05:58 (Motion carried).
15:06:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move an ordinance making lawful the
15:06:03 sale of beverages containing alcohol regardless of
15:06:05 alcoholic content, beer, wine and liquor, 4(COP-R),
15:06:09 for consumption on the premises only in connection
15:06:11 with a restaurant business establishment at or from
15:06:14 that certain lot, plot or tract of land located at 300
15:06:18 east Madison street, 500, 501 North Franklin Street,
15:06:26 wavering certain restriction as to distance based upon
15:06:29 certain findings, providing for repeal of all
15:06:32 ordinances in conflict, providing an effective date.
15:06:34 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
15:06:36 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
15:06:38 Opposed, Nay.
15:06:38 (Motion carried)

15:06:40 Mrs. Saul-Sena, would you read the ordinance for the
15:06:42 vacating we have the attorney brought back?
15:06:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: An ordinance vacating, closing,
15:06:52 discontinuing, a portion of alleyway lying south of
15:06:56 east Chelsea street north of east, north Bay Street,
15:06:59 west of north 14th street and east of north
15:07:02 13th street and south of Nebraska Heights, a
15:07:05 subdivision in the city of Tampa, Florida, and being
15:07:08 more particularly described in section 2 hereof,
15:07:11 reserving certain easements and conditions, providing
15:07:14 an effective date.
15:07:15 >> Second.
15:07:15 (Motion carried)
15:07:20 >>GWEN MILLER: We have some items from this morning, 6
15:07:23 and 7.
15:07:24 Are we going to do that?
15:07:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
15:07:27 He needs to.
15:07:28 I think we can go real fast.
15:07:40 >> I have some issues.
15:07:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I feel if we are going to start
15:07:42 this new calendar in September we need to give people

15:07:45 some warning.
15:07:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Why don't we take up --
15:07:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: After the CRA?
15:07:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
15:07:54 Because we have to come back as council anyway to vote
15:07:58 on that.
15:07:58 So I suggest we take up the CRA issues.
15:08:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano, any information for
15:08:05 council members?
15:08:06 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: No.
15:08:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: No.
15:08:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Nothing today.
15:08:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I did have some but I have here so
15:08:13 long I forgot.
15:08:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Two things.
15:08:16 I received a request from Tina Acosta who is the head
15:08:22 of the dredging and canal restoration group, a request
15:08:26 for a workshop in October.
15:08:27 They have been before us and requested this before.
15:08:29 I'm looking at the last date in October, the 25th.
15:08:36 At 9 a.m
15:08:43 That's a motion to have with staff.

15:08:45 This dredging of the canals in the Beach Park area,
15:08:49 Mr. Daignault is supposed to report back to us.
15:08:52 They have been requesting this for a long time.
15:08:53 I would like to set that workshop.
15:09:04 October 25th at 9 a.m.
15:09:07 >> Madam Chair?
15:09:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That would be the fourth item on the
15:09:13 workshop.
15:09:16 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can we set it after these two, at
15:09:18 1:30?
15:09:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You don't want to do it at 1:30.
15:09:25 >> You have CRA in the morning.
15:09:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's why I'm suggesting 1:30.
15:09:30 My motion is to schedule this for 1:30 on the
15:09:33 22nd.
15:09:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Oh, you're right.
15:09:42 >> We have a 9:00 meeting, then 10:30 for the --
15:09:49 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe Lake Kipling is also on
15:09:51 that day.
15:09:52 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is part of the Lake Kipling
15:09:55 conversation.
15:09:55 Okay.

15:09:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Because if Lake Kipling is very
15:10:01 focused, the canals are a little bit further.
15:10:04 So do you want to just expand that?
15:10:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
15:10:07 I would like to expand the Lake Kipling conversation
15:10:09 to also include the canals, dredging and restoration.
15:10:14 The same cast of characters in terms of staff and
15:10:17 residents.
15:10:19 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
15:10:20 (Motion carried)
15:10:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Secondly, I would like to set a
15:10:24 special discussion meeting which means you don't have
15:10:26 to come if you are interested.
15:10:27 You can come for Monday, September 17 at 9 a.m. in the
15:10:30 Mascotte room to discuss funding for cultural
15:10:33 programming and creative industries.
15:10:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you need a second or are you
15:10:38 just doing it?
15:10:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm just setting it.
15:10:42 Parks, Recreation and Culture.
15:10:44 I'm setting it as a special discussion meeting.
15:10:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk.

15:10:49 >> Monday, September 17th at 9 a.m. in the
15:10:51 Mascotte room.
15:10:54 >> Second.
15:10:54 (Motion carried).
15:10:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk, do you have anything?
15:10:59 >>THE CLERK: Just to receive and file.
15:11:01 Up.
15:11:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
15:11:03 >> Second.
15:11:03 (Motion carried).
15:11:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby, do you have anything?
15:11:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Oh, Willey Robinson is the owner of
15:11:16 the historic building where so many of our jazz greats
15:11:19 performed in Tampa, near Tampa union station, and I
15:11:22 wanted to set the date of September 20th to give
15:11:26 him a commendation.
15:11:28 I have already written.
15:11:29 We have already approved it.
15:11:31 It's the Jackson house, local landmark.
15:11:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
15:11:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: At the beginning of our meeting at
15:11:37 9 a.m.

15:11:38 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:11:39 (Motion carried).
15:11:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Nothing else?
15:11:42 We go to CRA.
15:11:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, if you can, you are going to
15:11:46 be in recess as a City Council?
15:11:52 >> Recess, yes.
15:11:52 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to CRA.
15:11:55 (City Council meeting recess)














15:12:02
15:12:07 Community Redevelopment Agency meeting.
15:12:46 3:00 p.m. special meeting
15:12:49 Thursday, August 30, 2007
15:12:55 3:12 p.m.
15:13:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I now call the Community Redevelopment
15:13:53 Agency for the for Tampa to come to order at this
15:13:58 time.
15:13:58 Roll call.
15:14:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
15:14:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
15:14:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
15:14:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
15:14:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
15:14:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
15:14:14 Okay, at this time, councilmen, we will R we will have
15:14:17 the city attorney come and bring us up to speed, up to
15:14:20 date.
15:14:20 >>DAVID SMITH: City attorney.
15:14:24 We are here today to request the approval of the
15:14:27 resolution authorizing the approval and execution of
15:14:30 the unsecured rights agreement, the first amendment to

15:14:34 contract for guarantee assistance under section 108 of
15:14:37 the technology and community development act of 1974,
15:14:42 the third amendment of the development agreement, and
15:14:44 the certification regarding development agreement, and
15:14:47 finally the ground lease certificate.
15:14:51 I think we can have this as a fairly brief meeting
15:14:53 today because I want to minimize any potential
15:14:56 confusion.
15:14:58 We are here solely on the Wilkow proposal at this
15:15:03 time.
15:15:03 The public has spoken on that issue.
15:15:05 We are not here to a professor discuss any other
15:15:07 potential proposal of Ybor.
15:15:12 Such proposals to the extent they are out standing can
15:15:15 be dealt with later and brought back to this council
15:15:17 if they come to fruition.
15:15:18 Approval of this now does not reduce the city's
15:15:20 negotiating position, or its leverage, and in fact it
15:15:24 protects us.
15:15:26 The rights under the third amendment do not vest in
15:15:30 the event of a sale or in the event of a foreclosure.
15:15:34 That would mean if a deal is reached between the

15:15:36 current owner and a subsequent or potential interested
15:15:39 owner they could not foreclose out without dealing
15:15:42 with us, or else they would lose the right to be
15:15:45 created under the third amendment.
15:15:47 We believe we have craft add document the way that
15:15:50 protects the city, that allows the flexibility to talk
15:15:52 to whomever we need to talk with.
15:15:55 At the same time, however, we think it's important to
15:15:59 move forward.
15:16:00 This has been pending for quite awhile.
15:16:02 We don't think we should hold up the city processes
15:16:06 any further.
15:16:07 I think it's important that redevelopment for Ybor
15:16:10 City move now.
15:16:13 That's why we are recommending approval.
15:16:15 We believe in conjunction with the administration that
15:16:18 this protects the taxpayer by attempting to get Centro
15:16:22 Ybor redeveloped, by avoiding acceleration of the HUD
15:16:26 debt, by getting some fixed payments, and by obtaining
15:16:30 participation in the back end if the venture should
15:16:33 prove to be successful.
15:16:35 This has been approved by HUD and that relationship is

15:16:38 very important to the city.
15:16:39 For all of these reasons, we recommend you move
15:16:41 approval of the resolution, and we will move forward
15:16:44 immediately in talking to anybody we need to talk to
15:16:48 for the good of the city and Ybor.
15:16:51 Thank you very much.
15:16:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Also, council, I want to bring you up
15:16:56 to speed, councilman Saul-Sena asked me to call HUD
15:16:59 and I did have a conversation about 30-minute
15:17:01 conversation with Jason triplet in Washington, D.C.
15:17:06 I did have a conversation, and pretty much my
15:17:08 conversation was pretty much what the administration
15:17:11 has already referenced.
15:17:14 They support the document and the arrangements have
15:17:21 already been worked out, and they are very much
15:17:26 concerned that if this does not get approved, then
15:17:32 what does the city want to do.
15:17:34 So they pretty much -- the conversation they had with
15:17:37 staff is the same with me.
15:17:44 Yes.
15:17:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank you very much for
15:17:47 taking -- for having that conversation.

15:17:50 We have a number of projects that involve our CRAs
15:17:53 that will be coming up in the next few months.
15:17:55 And I think that this CRA has demonstrated that we are
15:18:00 interested in taking the time to really dig in to
15:18:04 arrangements.
15:18:05 And I think it's appropriate for the staff of the CRA
15:18:08 and the administration to recognize that, and to
15:18:12 provide us with information prior to the meeting where
15:18:14 we are expected to take action on something.
15:18:16 And I can think of a number of projects that will be
15:18:18 coming up in the next few months, and I would expect
15:18:21 the timing to be that we are not presented with
15:18:24 something and told to take action at the same time,
15:18:28 because it simply doesn't allow ourselves or the
15:18:31 public or the press enough time to really evaluate
15:18:36 what our options are.
15:18:39 I really don't like to be presented with something
15:18:42 these that's fait accompli.
15:18:44 I want ton see what our options are and for us as a
15:18:47 deliberative board to evaluate and make a sound
15:18:51 choice.
15:18:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just want to speak to the fact

15:18:59 that this has been an ongoing -- thank you,
15:19:02 Mr. Chairman -- this has been an ongoing process prior
15:19:04 to February of the year, of the current year, 2007.
15:19:09 I know a lot of parties involved.
15:19:11 I don't personally know anyone on the Wilkow side or
15:19:16 Wachovia, whatever the bank is.
15:19:18 But I can say this.
15:19:18 Back in February, and prior to that time, there have
15:19:22 been numerous movements between the individuals, the
15:19:27 groups of individuals, the banks, and so forth.
15:19:30 There was a process, I would imagine, that somehow
15:19:34 Wachovia said, whoever bids the highest, rightly so,
15:19:38 they are going to get it. That process has passed.
15:19:40 That process was done.
15:19:41 So my only feeling is -- and I have read some of the
15:19:45 documents.
15:19:46 I didn't read the document that came in totally I
15:19:49 scanned it this morning, but it was received, a second
15:19:52 proposal from the first proposal from yesterday to
15:19:53 today, tore day before, to today, and the problem with
15:19:59 this is all that time has passed.
15:20:01 Two weeks ago I went, and on my time off I sat and I

15:20:08 listened to a sale conducted by the U.S. Marshalls
15:20:11 office on Cohen road, and I had intended to buy
15:20:14 something.
15:20:15 But I set a certain praise on something. That price
15:20:19 has passed.
15:20:20 I never made a bid because there was more than I
15:20:22 wanted to pay.
15:20:23 I think the same thing could happen here.
15:20:26 So these individuals or groups of individuals would
15:20:28 like to do their due diligence.
15:20:31 They can -- I guess the name is Wilkow, and that's how
15:20:38 I feel.
15:20:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Sorry I missed the fun last week.
15:20:55 >> I would like to quickly hear from Mr. Wilkow and I
15:21:04 think he's here in the audience.
15:21:05 I understand they have some great plans over and above
15:21:08 what they already invested and I would like to hear
15:21:11 his 3 or 4-minute take on that, if council will
15:21:14 indulge.
15:21:22 >>> My name is David Harvey, the president in charge
15:21:25 of WILKOW at this project.
15:21:28 As you probably already know, it is our intention to

15:21:33 take the significant portion of the Muvico part of the
15:21:37 property and convert to the our current uses.
15:21:40 It is most likely to be office.
15:21:41 But we are still exploring the feasibility of it
15:21:44 perhaps being either wholesale or residential.
15:21:49 So the function really is the cost and whether we find
15:21:52 interested parties that would like to do those other
15:21:57 two uses.
15:21:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: How about further investment?
15:22:00 I understand you have some --
15:22:03 >>> The project has been capitalized to provide for an
15:22:05 additional 8 million of debt financing and 2.5 million
15:22:10 of equity financing.
15:22:11 So we have it at our disposal $10.5 million over and
15:22:16 above what was provided for us to make the
15:22:18 acquisition.
15:22:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
15:22:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Council, what's your pleasure?
15:22:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I will move the information
15:22:34 presented at our last CRA meeting.
15:22:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Resolution?
15:22:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The resolution.

15:22:42 I'll move the substitute resolution.
15:22:45 I don't believe I need to read it.
15:22:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion by councilwoman Saul-Sena that
15:22:57 we approve the resolution, seconded by councilman
15:23:00 Dingfelder.
15:23:00 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
15:23:02 Opposed the same sign.
15:23:04 So moved and ordered.
15:23:08 The other issue before us today, need to set a special
15:23:14 board meeting on Thursday, September 6, 2007, at 1:30.
15:23:17 The purpose of that meeting is to deal with our budget
15:23:20 from last meeting's budget and also receiver and file
15:23:24 Channel District art project.
15:23:28 September 6th, 1:30.
15:23:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I had an opportunity to speak with
15:23:38 Jeanie white of the Channel District as well as Mr.
15:23:41 Chen about the art project thing.
15:23:43 And I'm concerned because we only have two applicants
15:23:52 for the consultant position that we had identified.
15:23:54 And there is a person who had written the Channel
15:23:59 District plan who is interested in applying for this.
15:24:01 And when I did some investigation, I found out that he

15:24:04 didn't apply because Carl Wilborn never got the
15:24:08 application to him, and I don't want to muddle in the
15:24:12 process, but I think that he's a great applicant
15:24:17 because he knows the cultural community, and I'm just
15:24:23 concerned that -- I don't want to move ahead with this
15:24:26 limited pool of applicants, although there's this
15:24:29 great one that never somehow got the application.
15:24:31 I'm talking about Bill booth, previous planner and
15:24:34 consultant, so I want to know what we can do to reopen
15:24:40 this process and let him compete.
15:24:47 >>MARK HUEY: The selection was made through the city
15:24:49 standard procurement process.
15:24:51 And why he wasn't a part of it, again I don't know
15:24:54 what we would have to do to reprocure, and again, I
15:25:00 think maybe if you learned a little bit about the firm
15:25:04 that is committed to doing the project you might feel
15:25:06 good about the selection that was made.
15:25:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My feeling at this point we have
15:25:13 lost Mr. Wilborn and I can't remember if you were
15:25:16 there at the council budget workshop.
15:25:19 Actually Mary Mulhern and Mr. Dingfelder said, we have
15:25:22 lost our creative industries director.

15:25:24 Maybe we could look at using some money from the
15:25:29 different CRAs, downtown, Channel District and Ybor
15:25:33 to do more marketing with cultural programming.
15:25:36 My feeling is that now, almost September, we have mess
15:25:39 add round for an entire year not finding anybody.
15:25:42 We somehow missed the person hop is most knowledgeable
15:25:45 about this.
15:25:46 And I don't see that we are suddenly in this great
15:25:48 rush.
15:25:48 I mean, I have been frustrated for a year, and now --
15:25:56 >>> Again city processes take awhile, and we got to
15:25:58 this point, and I share your frustration, with someone
15:26:01 who might have been a good consultant.
15:26:04 >> Well, we don't have that much money, we don't have
15:26:07 that much time, this is somebody that's like
15:26:09 pre-educated.
15:26:10 Way would like to know is what would be the
15:26:12 appropriate CRA action to reopen this search?
15:26:23 My motion --
15:26:28 >>> I'm not sure.
15:26:29 Sal, can you?
15:26:34 This is a budgeted item in the Channel District, the

15:26:37 CRA plan.
15:26:38 And we did an RFP process.
15:26:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: And we only got two applicants.
15:26:45 >>> Mr. Spearman would be most appropriate to come
15:26:47 speak to you about how the procurement process went
15:26:49 and unfolded.
15:26:50 But we basically followed standards.
15:26:53 >> I know.
15:26:55 I'm saying it hasn't come back to council.
15:26:56 It hasn't come back to the CRA yet.
15:26:58 What I'm interested in doing is saying we only got two
15:27:02 applicants.
15:27:03 It's taken us forever. What can we do to open this
15:27:08 process so we can receive more applications?
15:27:13 So my request would then be that we ask purchasing to
15:27:18 reopen it, to start the process again, on an
15:27:24 abbreviated time frame, let's say two weeks instead of
15:27:27 four weeks, to see if we get some additional
15:27:31 applications.
15:27:32 >>> Well, what we could do, if you felt that way --
15:27:35 I'm sorry.
15:27:36 I'm talking.

15:27:37 But maybe you wanted to comment.
15:27:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: She has the floor.
15:27:42 She hasn't relinquished it yet.
15:27:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My motion is to request that the --
15:27:49 the CRA request that this consultant, the advertising
15:27:53 be reopened, on an accelerated basis, so that we get a
15:27:57 larger pool of applicants.
15:27:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Question on the motion.
15:28:03 I might second it.
15:28:07 I think I saw some reference that if it went along
15:28:10 without the suggestion, the contractor would be coming
15:28:12 back to us soon?
15:28:17 >>MARK HUEY: To council?
15:28:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It hasn't been firmed yet?
15:28:30 Is it a one-year term?
15:28:32 >>> Yes.
15:28:33 Less an one-year term.
15:28:36 >>> Three or four months.
15:28:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So for the fiscal year, not for
15:28:44 future fiscal years?
15:28:46 >>MARK HUEY: Right.
15:28:47 Our TIF budget actually crossed fiscal years so it's

15:28:51 2007 dollars that are committed for this.
15:28:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Saul-Sena, with all due
15:28:56 respect I am not going to support your motion.
15:28:57 I think it's unfortunate.
15:28:59 I respect and admire the person you mentioned.
15:29:02 But I think it's just too late.
15:29:03 And I think just let them know what they are going to
15:29:09 do this year and next year we'll have similar money
15:29:12 again and other people will have the opportunity.
15:29:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Maybe what I could do is meet with
15:29:19 Mr. Chen, find out exactly what is in the works.
15:29:23 I feel like it's an amount of time to get this point.
15:29:31 It's September, for goodness sakes.
15:29:34 Now we miss somebody who is good.
15:29:36 Maybe we can improve the quality of our work next
15:29:38 year, I would hope.
15:29:39 Because I'm very disappointed in where we are.
15:29:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me again remind the board on the
15:29:48 6th of September at 1:30 we will discuss the CRA
15:29:51 budget and receive and file the Channel District
15:29:54 project.
15:30:04 (Motion carried)

15:30:04 So moved and ordered.
15:30:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I wonder when we are starting our
15:30:11 field visit to different neighborhoods.
15:30:14 >>MARK HUEY: We actually did our first one in the
15:30:18 month of August.
15:30:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We have one scheduled for September
15:30:25 11th which we had to reschedule, so anybody may
15:30:29 want to check everybody's schedule on that different
15:30:31 date.
15:30:32 But we have one last month at Drew Park, which I
15:30:36 thought was very good.
15:30:37 I thoroughly enjoyed it.
15:30:38 We had Lou Miller attend who really gave us a tour on
15:30:42 the aviation part of Drew Park, what they were doing,
15:30:45 and all of that.
15:30:46 Very informative.
15:30:48 And I think the administration did a very good job on
15:30:51 that tour.
15:30:53 It was very good.
15:30:54 I was very thrilled about that.
15:30:57 And the next one, mark is going to reschedule that.
15:31:03 >>> Yes.

15:31:05 Central Park.
15:31:07 >> Not on the 11th?
15:31:09 >>> No.
15:31:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Reschedule it.
15:31:12 >>> We had two attendees and one dropped out.
15:31:14 So we would like to get more participation N.light of
15:31:16 that we'll try to find another date.
15:31:20 But we are going to be doing those once a month.
15:31:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Good.
15:31:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Dingfelder.
15:31:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm curious about these.
15:31:31 It sounds like a positive thing.
15:31:32 I remember going on a tour, the Ybor district a long
15:31:35 time ago.
15:31:36 When I first came on council.
15:31:38 But there was also a pending motion from four years
15:31:42 ago that talked about having a CRA meeting out in the
15:31:46 community.
15:31:47 And I'm just wondering, is this in lieu of that or in
15:31:52 addition to that?
15:31:53 And because I know it's been discussed, there have
15:31:56 been successful motions, we never got there about

15:31:59 having -- and I think the only one we ever did, Mary
15:32:02 organized one in Drew Park that we also had a meeting
15:32:06 in Drew Park.
15:32:07 >>> We had a big town hall meeting in Channel
15:32:09 District, if I recall.
15:32:12 >> On the strategic plan.
15:32:14 >>> Yes.
15:32:14 >> But we talked about, and there was a motion,
15:32:16 Mark --
15:32:18 >>MARK HUEY: We had put some information together that
15:32:20 I haven't yet shared with the chairman and
15:32:25 recommendations.
15:32:26 What you should be aware is there is a cost to doing
15:32:28 that.
15:32:29 That's what we have been researching.
15:32:30 >> What?
15:32:31 >>> Well, it depends on how you format.
15:32:33 If you would like them to be televised live there's a
15:32:37 cost.
15:32:38 If you want them recorded there's another cost.
15:32:40 And so what we have been doing, not knowing exactly
15:32:42 what your intentions are, just researching different

15:32:45 options that we will make available to you.
15:32:50 >> Let me retain the floor for a minute here.
15:32:53 Four years later, I think if it's still the will of
15:32:55 the board, I think the community deserves it.
15:32:58 Each one of those communities deserves to have us out
15:33:00 there once a year in the evening to chat with them
15:33:02 about their community.
15:33:04 It shouldn't have to come here.
15:33:06 It should go there, a convenient time to them in the
15:33:09 evenings, so they can come talk to us about what they
15:33:12 want for their individual CRA.
15:33:16 I think it's only fair.
15:33:17 I think it's right.
15:33:18 It doesn't need to be televised.
15:33:20 I don't even know that it needs to be recorded because
15:33:22 frankly you can have under the sunshine law, you can
15:33:25 have somebody take hand notes and city staff.
15:33:29 >>> I think you would want to have them recorded.
15:33:32 You can do it that way but I think it's going to be a
15:33:34 full-blown CRA meeting the better thing is to have it
15:33:36 recorded.
15:33:38 >>MARK HUEY: As to whether they would be a full-blown

15:33:42 CRA board.
15:33:42 If would you be taking your regular monthly meeting
15:33:45 and conducting your business in the community, where
15:33:47 this would be an alternative.
15:33:50 Just neighborhood meeting where no business will be
15:33:52 conducted.
15:33:52 And that was one of the questions we had.
15:33:56 To know the demands on your time.
15:33:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just so we have momentum on this.
15:34:01 I would like you and the chairman to wrestle with
15:34:04 those issues and I'll just ask at the September
15:34:07 meeting, September 6th meeting, that you all come
15:34:09 back to us with some suggestions, and time frames and
15:34:12 that sort of thing.
15:34:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I don't think we want to have a
15:34:15 full-blown meeting.
15:34:16 I think we want to go out and hear from the
15:34:19 neighborhood and I think that's what I'm hearing, and
15:34:21 that doesn't require to have a full-blown meeting.
15:34:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Noticed formal meeting.
15:34:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Since we are having our CRA
15:34:29 meeting, since we are hopefully going to set them as

15:34:32 meetings in the morning, and we can see how the
15:34:36 alternate evenings, maybe once every other month, we
15:34:39 can do one of those in the neighborhood, just listen
15:34:43 to them.
15:34:43 I think that would be good.
15:34:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me see how we can coordinate and
15:34:49 work something out, okay?
15:34:50 Okay.
15:34:54 Is there anything else?
15:34:57 I think that's about it.
15:35:00 Do we need to receive and file any documents?
15:35:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
15:35:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
15:35:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me also say to Mr. Huey and to the
15:35:10 attorney, I can appreciate the due diligence and
15:35:17 keeping council informed.
15:35:19 I think to me when you do that you minimize a lot of
15:35:21 conflict and a lot of issues.
15:35:23 And I will tell you since last week, like I told you
15:35:28 before, we met, we did an excellent job.
15:35:30 My concern was that when we came as a council, it
15:35:33 appeared that we didn't have any other options.

15:35:35 And so but I think all of us have been briefed and
15:35:38 kept up to speed, and I appreciate.
15:35:41 Because when we come to council we all have plenty of
15:35:44 information, we have been briefed, and we can have
15:35:46 input.
15:35:47 Okay?
15:35:47 I want to thank you very much for that.
15:35:50 >>DAVID SMITH: Thank you for those kind comments.
15:35:53 We now have to reconvene as a City Council.
15:35:56 >>GWEN MILLER: We have one more.
15:35:59 Public comment.
15:35:59 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Public comments to the CRA board,
15:36:02 agency?
15:36:03 Okay.
15:36:04 All right.
15:36:05 Then we stand adjourned.
15:36:07 As a CRA agency.
15:36:11 >>CHAIRMAN: And we will come back as a City Council
15:36:13 meeting.
15:36:15 (CRA meeting adjourned)



15:36:31
15:36:34 Tampa City Council
15:36:39 Thursday, August 30, 2007
15:36:53 3:37 p.m. reconvened
15:37:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called back to
15:37:07 order.
15:37:08 Roll call.
15:37:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
15:37:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
15:37:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
15:37:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
15:37:16 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
15:37:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
15:37:19 We need to go back to item number 2.
15:37:20 We have a resolution that we need to pass.
15:37:28 I have a motion and second.
15:37:29 (Motion carried).
15:37:31 >>DAVID SMITH: I assume that was the revised motion
15:37:35 that was made.
15:37:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
15:37:40 Now we go to item number 6 and 7.
15:37:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: City Council attorney.

15:38:01 I prepared for you a resolution amending the council's
15:38:05 rules of procedure.
15:38:07 I have an electronic format.
15:38:08 What you have before you is a draft based on comments
15:38:14 and certain direction by council.
15:38:18 The version you have is underlined for new language,
15:38:23 strike-through, for deletion, in bold, italics type
15:38:29 are comments that have been made that have not been
15:38:32 incorporated into the rules.
15:38:37 And this is a revision of the originally the August
15:38:40 8th draft.
15:38:41 This draft is dated 8-28-07.
15:38:43 I apologize that the PDF version that was e-mailed to
15:38:47 you deleted the page numbers.
15:38:49 So I have provided each of you today the printed
15:38:52 version with the pages at the bottom for your
15:38:56 reference.
15:38:57 Council, if you wish, we can go through page by page,
15:39:03 if you wish.
15:39:04 There's one correction I want to make to my memo at
15:39:07 the bottom.
15:39:09 The rules were amended in 2005 so that the only way --

15:39:12 excuse me, the way do you amend it is to read it at
15:39:16 two consecutive council meetings.
15:39:17 For instance, if you wish to go forward, being that
15:39:20 this is the last item today, you could give me
15:39:22 direction, I could put it on next week's agenda, you
15:39:25 can read it then, and then you come back in two weeks
15:39:28 in September, I believe would be September 13th, I
15:39:31 believe would be the date, and you would read it again
15:39:34 and it would be adopted.
15:39:35 The effective date of the resolution would be October
15:39:37 1st when the new agenda one take effect.
15:39:42 And obviously you were previously given direction to
15:39:45 me and to the clerk's office to notify the department
15:39:48 that this was council's intention.
15:39:50 So I am prepared to ask for your direction.
15:39:53 Again, please understand my position is that these are
15:40:00 your rules.
15:40:02 Obviously, there have been instances in the past where
15:40:06 council has waived the rules.
15:40:10 And it would be the ideal circumstance not to make
15:40:13 that the practice but the exception.
15:40:15 So I would ask that when you do look at these rules,

15:40:21 you obviously change them to make them acceptable to
15:40:23 you so that you as an elected body agree to abide by
15:40:28 them and have them work to your favor.
15:40:31 So I will entertain however council wishes to approve
15:40:33 it, if you wish to go page by page, for instance --
15:40:42 I'm sorry.
15:40:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just on page 4.
15:40:45 >>GWEN MILLER: No meetings on September 13th and
15:40:50 second reading would be -- I mean September 13th
15:40:54 and second reading on September 20.
15:40:57 Did you say that?
15:41:02 >>THE CLERK: There's in a meeting on September
15:41:04 13th.
15:41:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: What I had intended originally,
15:41:08 ideally, wade intended originally ideally, council,
15:41:11 would be to have had this discussion earlier and then
15:41:14 been able to bring CRA perhaps, do the resolution.
15:41:18 But I don't think I would be able to do any changes
15:41:21 today and bring you the resolutions.
15:41:23 I am going to ask that I bring it back next week.
15:41:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay, go ahead.
15:41:29 Jurisdiction just to point out certain consequences of

15:41:32 the new rules, obviously, on page 4, I note that
15:41:37 council's new schedule will have to be adjusted for
15:41:41 holidays and breaks in the schedule and this will have
15:41:43 to be accommodated -- to the departments well in
15:41:48 advance.
15:41:48 There are no meetings scheduled for the fifth Thursday
15:41:53 of each month, presently.
15:41:55 Because as council had contemplated the first and
15:41:59 third Thursday of each month are the regular council
15:42:01 meetings. The second Thursday of each month is to be
15:42:03 scheduled for the CRA.
15:42:06 And the fourth meeting of each month is scheduled for
15:42:08 workshop.
15:42:10 So there may be times, for instance, in July, that the
15:42:14 fifth Thursday would be used to compensate for the
15:42:16 fact you would be losing a week for your break.
15:42:20 On the next page, council, just a point --
15:42:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think it would be most helpful if
15:42:27 we just started on page 4 and take it one piece at a
15:42:30 time instead of explaining things in advance.
15:42:32 Let's just take it one piece at a time.
15:42:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And if I could ask, Madam Chair,

15:42:37 for indulgence.
15:42:38 After Marty explains each page, why don't we see if
15:42:41 there's any questions on that page.
15:42:42 If there's maybe a motion for that page or take care
15:42:45 of that motion and then move forward.
15:42:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That will be fine.
15:42:47 >>GWEN MILLER: We are on page 4.
15:42:49 Any question on page 4?
15:42:52 Ms. Saul-Sena?
15:42:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to take it like rule
15:42:57 3-A, do we agree with that?
15:42:59 I agree with it.
15:43:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Do we have to make a motion for each
15:43:05 one of these?
15:43:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't you wait until you see
15:43:08 something that we don't want.
15:43:09 >>CHAIRMAN: On that page is there something you want
15:43:13 to change?
15:43:15 If it's okay we don't say anything.
15:43:17 Let's go to page 5.
15:43:22 Page 5.
15:43:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you want to say something, Marty?

15:43:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I changed my mind.
15:43:30 You all convinced me that it was better to keep things
15:43:33 at 9:30.
15:43:34 So we can keep first readings at 9:30.
15:43:41 Instead of changing second reading to 9:30 at 10 and
15:43:45 second readings from 10 to 10:30 let's just keep them
15:43:49 where they are.
15:43:49 >>GWEN MILLER: You got that, Mr. Shelby?
15:43:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes.
15:43:53 Council, I should also point out on page 5 there has
15:43:56 been some discussion and no action taken regarding the
15:43:58 general public comment.
15:44:00 You still see the general public comments still
15:44:04 appears as the second to last item.
15:44:08 And your resolution from 1995 regarding televising.
15:44:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
15:44:17 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We did have a discussion about
15:44:18 that.
15:44:19 I thought there were some changes and opinion on
15:44:21 council on that.
15:44:22 So I would just make a motion, just to get it off the
15:44:27 table, that on item F, as revised, on page 5, it says

15:44:34 agendaed public comment.
15:44:35 And I would only add one word, which would say, for
15:44:39 any matter -- actually change two words -- for any
15:44:42 matter other than public hearings.
15:44:46 And there are many people in the public who said they
15:44:48 would like to speak earlier in the day, earlier in the
15:44:51 agenda, on anything they want to talk about, you know,
15:44:54 relevant to city government, and not defer them to the
15:44:59 general public comment after the cameras go off,
15:45:03 et cetera.
15:45:03 So that would be my motion to allow agendaed public
15:45:08 comment, for any matter other than public hearings.
15:45:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
15:45:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Although I can understand the
15:45:20 gesture for changing that, I feel that it was done for
15:45:23 a reason way back, 15, 18 years ago, and we are going
15:45:27 to go back to a system that instead of streamlining
15:45:31 the budget -- we are not cutting anybody out.
15:45:34 They can certainly come and speak to any matter on the
15:45:36 agenda, of the appropriate matter that is on that
15:45:40 weekly agenda.
15:45:41 What we are doing now is saying to the public, you can

15:45:43 come to speak on any matter.
15:45:45 So you don't have to call on the phone, you come to
15:45:48 council and bring up any matter you like, and we would
15:45:50 have a longer, more difficult time in getting through
15:45:54 the agenda, instead of streamlining the agenda, you
15:45:57 are going to find it very cumbersome agenda, possibly.
15:46:00 And I will not support that for any matter, because
15:46:04 that leaves it wide open to a lot of other matters.
15:46:09 They are certainly entitled to come here and I am not
15:46:11 taking anyone's rights.
15:46:13 They are entitled to come at the end of the agenda and
15:46:14 express their feelings to this body.
15:46:16 >>GWEN MILLER: I agree, Mr. Miranda.
15:46:18 I feel the same way.
15:46:19 Because if we say any matter we are going to have some
15:46:22 matters we don't want to hear, there are going to be
15:46:25 some matters that will be out of line and we can't say
15:46:27 nothing about.
15:46:28 So I won't agree with that either.
15:46:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: My issue is a little different.
15:46:41 The request by the public.
15:46:43 I thought we were going to allow "F" to follow and

15:46:48 then the request for pending legislative matters for
15:46:50 reconsideration -- for consideration.
15:46:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We could switch those.
15:46:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think it's better to have the public
15:47:01 speak to matters on the agenda other than public
15:47:03 hearing, and then requests for reconsideration and
15:47:05 legislative matters.
15:47:06 That's my opinion.
15:47:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Dingfelder, I really listen to
15:47:11 you about the idea that the public shouldn't be off
15:47:15 the camera.
15:47:16 And so maybe as a way of splitting the baby we could
15:47:20 make the general public comment at the end televised.
15:47:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That would be fine.
15:47:29 Do you want to see how this motion goes first?
15:47:32 My motion is on the floor, adding the word "any
15:47:36 matter."
15:47:40 It's got a second.
15:47:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I just want a clarification.
15:47:44 Right now, it says agendaed public comment.
15:47:46 Would you like to just strike that word agendaed?
15:47:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes, that would be clear.

15:47:51 Just be public comment.
15:47:52 And I really tried to fashion that with the county
15:47:56 commission, Mr. Scott, the council/commissioner stuff,
15:48:01 county commission proper, which when those people come
15:48:03 up and talk about pretty much anything they want.
15:48:05 Usually it's related to something on the agenda, but
15:48:07 sometimes it's not.
15:48:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: First preference is given to items on
15:48:15 the agenda.
15:48:16 And then they take comments from those who get
15:48:21 preference.
15:48:21 They have to sign in so people can't just come in and
15:48:23 talk.
15:48:24 They have to sign in over there.
15:48:25 And then state what item it is.
15:48:27 So then they line up by the chairman, and other people
15:48:32 who sign in get to talk.
15:48:36 >> Is there a time limit?
15:48:38 >> 45 minutes.
15:48:42 >> And what happens at 45 minutes?
15:48:44 >>> We go to our agenda and they can stay at the end
15:48:46 of the agenda to speak.

15:48:47 Continue with public comment.
15:48:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It depend on whether council wishes
15:48:56 to make those changes or put a time limit on it.
15:48:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't we see the motion and
15:49:01 then we can refine in the some semblance as described.
15:49:07 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion saying any
15:49:09 matter.
15:49:10 All in favor say Aye.
15:49:12 Opposed, Nay.
15:49:15 We have to wait for Caetano.
15:49:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: If your motion had included a
15:49:24 preference for the agendaed items, and then I could
15:49:26 support that.
15:49:26 But I won't support it without giving preference to
15:49:34 the agendaed items first.
15:49:39 3-2.
15:49:40 We have to wait for Mr. Caetano to come back.
15:49:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let's wait till Joe comes back on
15:49:46 that issue.
15:49:46 But I was hoping to sort of craft it the way that
15:49:49 Reverend Scott had described it.
15:49:51 THE WITNESS: That's my understanding and on that

15:49:54 direction I will have that language casted.
15:49:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We still need four votes.
15:49:59 We only have three.
15:50:00 Even under the best circumstances.
15:50:01 >>GWEN MILLER: We will move on till he comes back.
15:50:04 It has been suggested change of time.
15:50:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Did we vote on the E and F swap?
15:50:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's easy.
15:50:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move the E and F swap.
15:50:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
15:50:21 (Motion carried).
15:50:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My motion would be to allow the
15:50:25 public comment at the end to be televised.
15:50:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't we wait till Joe comes
15:50:29 back and see if we can fix F before we do that.
15:50:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do we need a motion on just saying
15:50:37 9:30 and 10:00 instead of 10:00 and 10:30?
15:50:43 Well, let's just press on.
15:50:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to page 6.
15:50:47 Any changes on page 6?
15:50:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The lunch change.
15:50:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Recess will be taken as close to noon

15:50:55 as possible unless majority vote.
15:50:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That was a previous motion by
15:50:58 council.
15:50:59 Previous direction by motion.
15:51:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Page 7.
15:51:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The only question I have on page 7,
15:51:08 and I know it's a little weird because we are setting
15:51:10 up council rules.
15:51:11 But it doesn't mention here about a CRA day.
15:51:14 And I think we have all established that the fourth
15:51:21 Thursday of the month -- I meant numerically, not
15:51:25 sequentially.
15:51:26 But it would be appropriate or inappropriate to put in
15:51:31 the here?
15:51:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think it should be in there.
15:51:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If you wish.
15:51:43 >> 9 a.m.
15:51:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 9:00.
15:51:45 >>CHAIRMAN: Want to put 9:00 in there?
15:51:49 9 a.m.
15:51:50 To have the CRA.
15:51:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The second Thursday.

15:51:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: So would I put language the second
15:51:57 Thursday of the month beginning at 9 a.m. is reserved
15:52:00 for meetings of the --
15:52:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: As required or as called.
15:52:06 If they are not called then we wouldn't have any.
15:52:13 >>GWEN MILLER: That's the only change?
15:52:14 Okay.
15:52:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you want to jump back to page 5
15:52:17 real quick since Mr. Caetano is back?
15:52:20 And I'm going to -- if it's appropriate, I'll amend my
15:52:23 motion to take the suggestion of Reverend Scott.
15:52:31 I don't know, Tom, why don't you help me?
15:52:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Number F.
15:52:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: What is currently F and soon to be
15:52:38 E, under public comment.
15:52:41 You said would you support something.
15:52:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What I was saying was I would support,
15:52:47 you know, the public comment, but giving preference to
15:52:50 those who want to speak on the agendaed issues first.
15:52:54 Speak on the agendaed issues first.
15:52:56 Then also you have to limit the time.
15:52:58 Can't go all morning.

15:52:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm not in favor of 45 minutes.
15:53:01 I'm thinking 30 minutes.
15:53:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Then anyone else has to stay to the
15:53:07 end of the meeting to speak.
15:53:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And with a sign-up sheet.
15:53:13 >>GWEN MILLER: If a person wants to speak on agendaed
15:53:16 items can they vote?
15:53:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: They get three minutes.
15:53:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Three minutes on "O."
15:53:31 >>> Three minutes on any matter.
15:53:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It would be any matter.
15:53:35 But then Reverend Scott says giving preference to
15:53:39 agendaed items first, and then if somebody else wants
15:53:42 to fill up the remainder of 30 minutes, three minutes
15:53:45 at the time of nonagendaed items they could.
15:53:49 >>MARTIN SHELBY: So it would read public comment for
15:53:51 any matter other than public hearing.
15:53:53 And I would put in language with preference given to
15:53:56 speakers on agendaed items first, a time limit of 30
15:53:58 minutes, and past 30 minutes will be taken under item
15:54:04 "O" as needed.
15:54:07 I'll put in language sign-up sheet.

15:54:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Is it the intention of the chair
15:54:13 to go down the list by sign-up sheets for those people
15:54:16 that checked agenda items?
15:54:18 Is that what's contemplated?
15:54:19 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That would be the chair's
15:54:22 responsibility to keep that order.
15:54:24 Would that mean that -- and I'm just bringing it up
15:54:26 for an understanding of the facts before me, that you
15:54:31 can speak twice, you can speak --
15:54:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No.
15:54:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just wanted that clear.
15:54:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Speak one time.
15:54:40 >>GWEN MILLER: They can speak on anything.
15:54:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand.
15:54:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But only for three minutes.
15:54:47 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Would council wish that clarified by
15:54:51 saying no speaking more than once?
15:54:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Three minutes.
15:54:55 Only allowed three minutes.
15:54:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: In other words they can't come in the
15:55:00 morning and speak on 3 minutes and come back in the
15:55:03 afternoon.

15:55:03 They can only speak one time on public comment.
15:55:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: How about bundling this motion as
15:55:09 Mrs. Saul-Sena suggested about televised or not
15:55:13 televised.
15:55:17 >>GWEN MILLER: You don't need it because it's already
15:55:19 on television.
15:55:20 They are on television then.
15:55:22 You don't need to put television in there.
15:55:24 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Question on the motion.
15:55:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:55:27 (Motion carried)
15:55:30 Back to page 7.
15:55:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: On item 7 it occurs to me with a
15:55:39 review of some of the language here and I find it
15:55:42 amusing at some point, on item number 2 in the middle
15:55:45 of the page, if you read the first part.
15:55:47 But then when it says at council discretion by
15:55:50 unanimous vote these cases may be placed on a future
15:55:54 agenda if deemed appropriate, and without hardship to
15:55:57 interested parties.
15:56:00 However, when you go to 3, it says an additional
15:56:03 evening meeting for public hearings may be scheduled

15:56:04 for another day as may be designated by a majority
15:56:09 vote at City Council.
15:56:10 So, in other words, what we are saying is that it's
15:56:13 less important to have a meeting on a subject matter
15:56:17 thoroughly, on another day, that allows a petitioner,
15:56:21 he or she, the right to come back and explain their
15:56:24 absence or not being here.
15:56:25 So what I am trying to say is, unanimous vote to me
15:56:29 makes it somebody, not this council member, group, but
15:56:35 somewhere in the future somebody may not like
15:56:37 somebody, and they just say no, and that person can't
15:56:39 come back.
15:56:40 And I think then it puts a hardship on whoever that
15:56:44 petitioner may be.
15:56:45 So I would like to change the word "unanimous" to
15:56:48 "majority."
15:56:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:56:51 (Motion carried)
15:56:53 >> page 8.
15:57:03 Anything on page 8?
15:57:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, just a housekeeping matter.
15:57:07 Under F-2, the last sentence refers to an emergency

15:57:12 meeting.
15:57:16 It's been suggested to change the word say to
15:57:20 "accept."
15:57:21 It's clearer.
15:57:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes, clearer.
15:57:24 Agreed.
15:57:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you for changing my name,
15:57:32 Madam Chair, but it's all right with me.
15:57:34 I have no problem with the special discussion meeting.
15:57:37 Although it pertains to not having more than four
15:57:41 members being present.
15:57:42 And then it says no action taken irresponsibly of
15:57:49 whether there's no quorum present. If there's no
15:57:51 quorum present there's going to be no action taken.
15:57:53 That's self-understood, I guess.
15:57:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The point being if all council
15:57:57 members are there, if they wanted to, they could not.
15:58:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else on page 8?
15:58:04 All right.
15:58:07 Page 9.
15:58:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, page 9, there was direction
15:58:16 to create a method of allowing the administration to

15:58:20 bring to council time-sensitive items.
15:58:23 On days that council is not scheduled for regular
15:58:27 meetings.
15:58:27 I do know -- as now the administration has the ability
15:58:30 now to every week bring to council items requiring
15:58:33 council action.
15:58:34 If you go to the first and third of the month regular
15:58:37 meeting, there will be times, for instance, on the
15:58:40 second and fourth, that maybe there is something that
15:58:41 the administration needs council to take action on.
15:58:44 And that is why I created these special called
15:58:47 meetings process, which allowed for an agenda to be
15:58:52 set anytime that council would have a quorum present,
15:58:56 a CRA meeting or evening meeting, or at a workshop,
15:59:00 but to bring to your attention, the mayor's chief of
15:59:04 staff, Darrell Smith, had suggested not necessarily
15:59:07 creating a special called meeting process, but rather
15:59:11 to allow to have -- to have council to allow the items
15:59:15 to be added to the evening meeting through the doc
15:59:17 agenda process.
15:59:19 And, therefore, for instance, the Thursday, as I say,
15:59:25 2 p.m. deadline, council would have the background

15:59:27 material, and council would then come in, let's say,
15:59:30 at 6:00 and have items of official business that they
15:59:35 have to take care of.
15:59:36 That was Mr. Smith's suggestion.
15:59:38 And if council were to do that, my question would then
15:59:41 be, would council provide that discretion sole to the
15:59:45 administration or could council wish to require the
15:59:48 advance of approval of the council chair, or the chair
15:59:50 of the committee to which that matter relates?
15:59:52 So I had created a special called meeting.
15:59:55 Mr. Smith has created or suggested an alternative.
15:59:59 I'm looking for council's direction.
16:00:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Again, I want to reference the past
16:00:04 history.
16:00:06 In the past, council chair, whoever the person may be,
16:00:10 and this time it's councilwoman Miller, I believe
16:00:15 their responsibility deals the chair.
16:00:18 It used to be -- and I'm still sure are -- there was
16:00:22 something very pertinent to the advantage of the city,
16:00:24 i.e., a grant of some sort that was just discovered.
16:00:28 Certainly, I don't think this counsel or any other
16:00:29 person of well-being will say, we don't want the

16:00:32 money, because we don't want to come in for a
16:00:35 five-minute of interruption.
16:00:37 However, this document, in my opinion, is a document
16:00:42 of this council, not of the administration.
16:00:45 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The agenda you are referring to.
16:00:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's how I feel.
16:00:49 I may be wrong legally, I don't know. But eights
16:00:52 document that belongs under the rules we have, the
16:00:54 chairperson is the one that has the flexibility to
16:00:58 make sure that us, the rest of us, deal in importance
16:01:01 with the rules and regulations of the city, along with
16:01:04 our responsibility.
16:01:05 And I firmly feel that if the chair will want to put
16:01:09 something on as a walk-on item, not on a regular
16:01:12 basis, of course, but something that he or she feels
16:01:15 is necessary to the city to benefit, we are certainly
16:01:20 not going to say no.
16:01:21 However, if it's a pet project of some sort -- and I'm
16:01:25 not talking about this administration, I'm talking
16:01:27 about the future and the history of this great city --
16:01:29 then I think it narrows it down to what the intent of
16:01:33 this is.

16:01:34 And I feel it should be approved by the chair of City
16:01:37 Council to bring it on to this body.
16:01:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I agree.
16:01:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So will accept the evening
16:01:47 suggestion with the approval of the council chairs.
16:01:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
16:01:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Then what I will do is delete section
16:01:54 G, special called meetings, as it's underlined and
16:01:57 bring back language incorporating Mr. Smith's
16:02:00 suggestion with council member Miranda's proposal that
16:02:04 it be the chair of the City Council that approves
16:02:09 going onto that agenda.
16:02:11 Is that a motion?
16:02:14 Charlie?
16:02:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes.
16:02:16 >> Second.
16:02:16 (Motion carried).
16:02:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Page 10.
16:02:21 Mr. Dingfelder.
16:02:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't have a problem with item E,
16:02:26 which is the change.
16:02:28 But I think that the second parts of item E, where it

16:02:33 says "and defer his or her comment until the matter
16:02:38 appears on the agenda," I was watching today.
16:02:40 We actually had an example of this.
16:02:43 Margaret Vizzi from T.H.A.N. was up there speaking.
16:02:46 And I can't remember exactly what the subject was.
16:02:49 But Linda asked a very pertinent question to Margaret
16:02:55 to get her clarification on what T.H.A.N.'s position
16:02:57 was, and then shortly thereafter we voted an agenda
16:03:02 item that related to that whole discussion.
16:03:05 So I think we need to be careful not to tie our hands
16:03:08 too much on this.
16:03:08 I think that I remember when this discussion came up,
16:03:11 we don't want to have a lot of talk back and forth,
16:03:15 and just let them speak, and try and move on.
16:03:18 So that's where the refrain comes in.
16:03:22 But at the same time, I think that we should delete
16:03:25 the second parted of that sentence where it says "and
16:03:29 defer the comments until the matter appears on the
16:03:30 agenda" because the matter might not even be on the
16:03:33 agenda that day for the person to come back.
16:03:36 That would be my motion.
16:03:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The intent there when I made it was so

16:03:41 you could get to public comment without going to a
16:03:44 back and forth pace.
16:03:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: So a period -- I will take out the
16:03:50 word agenda because it will become public comment, and
16:03:52 take out the language of a the word "comment."
16:03:57 >> Correct.
16:03:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:03:58 (Motion carried)
16:04:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We are doing a lot better than the
16:04:02 school board today.
16:04:06 >> Yeah, we are still here.
16:04:08 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else on page 10?
16:04:11 All right.
16:04:11 Page 11.
16:04:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The only thing I would suggest is
16:04:25 eliminating the word "during public hearing."
16:04:30 Page 11, says time limit on staff presentations. If
16:04:35 we eliminate it generally should be limited to 15
16:04:40 minutes, period, or 15 minutes.
16:04:43 I think 15 minutes for anything from staff for any
16:04:48 discussion is adequate.
16:04:49 So I would just move to strike "during public

16:04:53 hearings."
16:04:54 That way it will be broader.
16:05:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: May I ask a question with regard to
16:05:01 the point on the agenda?
16:05:04 And we'll talk about the -- might as well talk about
16:05:08 that now.
16:05:08 With regard to staff report, and the order of
16:05:12 business, and maybe go back just for clarification
16:05:16 sake.
16:05:16 And I hate to do that, council, but very quickly, on
16:05:19 page 5, you see that staff reports or unfinished
16:05:23 business is moving down the agenda.
16:05:25 And the purpose of that, council, was to allow for
16:05:28 public comment and the committee reports to be taken
16:05:32 and the hearings -- I'm sorry, the public comment be
16:05:36 taken first and the committee reports be taken first
16:05:40 before the staff report.
16:05:42 The staff reports are presently five minutes.
16:05:44 Is it council's intention to lengthen that?
16:05:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No.
16:05:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Where does it say five minutes?
16:05:51 >>GWEN MILLER: We always say that.

16:05:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I know but --
16:05:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I could put in the rules so that
16:05:57 staff reports are five minutes.
16:05:59 Let me just double check.
16:06:03 >>GWEN MILLER: It's on the agenda.
16:06:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It just wasn't in these rules.
16:06:06 >>GWEN MILLER: It's on the agenda, five minutes.
16:06:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: On number 4.
16:06:13 Yes, on page 6, staff reports, except during public
16:06:16 hearings and unfinished business, shall be limited to
16:06:19 five minutes for each subject followed by time for
16:06:22 questions and comments.
16:06:24 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Good.
16:06:27 Good.
16:06:27 >>MARTIN SHELBY: These were presentations during
16:06:30 public hearings.
16:06:30 But if you wish to make it blanket with the exception
16:06:33 of staff reports under that item under unfinished
16:06:36 business I can specify that.
16:06:38 I just wanted to be clear whether or not it was your
16:06:41 intent to do the same, the level of staff reports.
16:06:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: In a.

16:06:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Did you mean staff?
16:06:49 Or do you mean petitioners?
16:06:52 >> Staff.
16:06:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: What happens now, sometimes -- I'm
16:06:55 sorry.
16:06:56 What happens next, for instance, let's say when
16:06:58 council comes back to discuss, for instance, Ms.
16:07:03 Cole's discussion on the sign code today, there is
16:07:09 nothing in the rules that directs the clerk to set the
16:07:12 time limit for that.
16:07:13 And there was some discussion as to whether there
16:07:15 should be.
16:07:17 If you don't need that at all in there, we can take
16:07:20 out the entire thing.
16:07:21 But that was an addition that can be deleted.
16:07:23 But that was to give some direction to staff about how
16:07:26 long they should -- when they come before council, for
16:07:30 instance, on a presentation, to be able to gauge that
16:07:36 you are time.
16:07:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think staff knows to be as
16:07:39 succinct as possible.
16:07:42 >> Is that a motion?

16:07:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
16:07:44 >> Second.
16:07:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:07:46 (Motion carried)
16:07:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay, 12.
16:07:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's a good change.
16:07:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Good change.
16:08:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And, also, I am putting in the rule,
16:08:05 council, so that it's clear, what the rules are with
16:08:08 regard to appeal hearings and time limits.
16:08:10 Because that is usually done by custom.
16:08:12 And this would be formalizing it.
16:08:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll tell you what was a little
16:08:23 messed up today, and because we don't have a rule for
16:08:26 it, but that continuance on the wet zoning on Raymond
16:08:29 James wet zoning, without any direction, other
16:08:33 direction, the clerk said, okay, 30 minutes, right?
16:08:37 And so -- or 40 minutes.
16:08:39 I'm not sure Watt was.
16:08:41 30 or 40.
16:08:43 30 for the petitioner.
16:08:44 But it was a continuance.

16:08:45 We just asked for additional information.
16:08:47 And I don't know why we needed to start all over
16:08:50 again.
16:08:50 Because we had heard a lot of that stuff before.
16:08:55 I don't know if we need a rule for it or if we just
16:08:58 need to be careful when we crank up a continuance,
16:09:00 that the petitioner doesn't get to start all over
16:09:02 again and get the whole 30 minutes.
16:09:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: There used to be a rule that said
16:09:11 that time was cumulative for all hearings but it was
16:09:14 not impossible to determine how much unused time there
16:09:17 was at the end of their presentation, and then
16:09:19 subtract that, and they came back several weeks later.
16:09:22 It never became practically possible to do it.
16:09:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Maybe we could say if the
16:09:28 petitioner has made their case and if the public has
16:09:30 had a chance to speak, that the continuance will be
16:09:35 limited to council questions.
16:09:41 How about that?
16:09:44 What do you all think?
16:09:45 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council member Saul-Sena, itself
16:09:51 sounds good in theory.

16:09:52 I have not thought through that --
16:09:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Why don't you bring it back next
16:09:55 week?
16:09:57 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The advantage though under this case
16:09:58 is they would no longer get 30 minutes.
16:10:01 It would be cut in half so at maximum even if they
16:10:03 came back they get no more than --
16:10:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's move on.
16:10:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you want to come back with that,
16:10:20 Marty, with some ideas?
16:10:25 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Ms. Cole came back with an idea if an
16:10:28 item is continued that the petitioner will just have
16:10:30 an opportunity for a rebuttal period of perhaps five
16:10:32 minutes.
16:10:33 >>GWEN MILLER: That sounds good.
16:10:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That sounds good.
16:10:37 Yes.
16:10:37 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If Ms. Cole says that's legally
16:10:41 sufficient --
16:10:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Put in the there.
16:10:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is that a motion?
16:10:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.

16:10:47 To come back.
16:10:50 (Motion carried).
16:10:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Page 13.
16:10:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just procedurally, if I could,
16:10:56 Madam Chair.
16:10:57 Marty, at the top, it says on this appeal, only those
16:11:00 who spoke at the original hearing are permitted to
16:11:02 testify.
16:11:03 I would think it would be more fair if you said only
16:11:05 parties of record from the original proceeding are
16:11:09 allowed to testify.
16:11:13 >> Yes.
16:11:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Only parties of record.
16:11:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If you didn't speak you still might
16:11:21 be a party of record because you might be a noted
16:11:25 neighbor.
16:11:26 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
16:11:28 It's really going to depend on how we define party of
16:11:30 record, within whatever provision you're appealing
16:11:33 from.
16:11:33 Because every provision has a different --
16:11:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If we say party of record aren't we

16:11:38 safe?
16:11:40 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.
16:11:41 I'm thinking off the top of my head, if it's
16:11:43 somebody -- if the city is not a party to the action
16:11:46 but yet staff provides with you information are you
16:11:48 then by this rule barring them from testifying?
16:11:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: No, but the next one says staff
16:11:55 can --
16:11:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think we are talking more about the
16:11:59 public or those that speak.
16:12:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You know, if you wish -- well, the
16:12:08 reason it was put in there was council's appeal
16:12:17 process, with the exception of certain administrative
16:12:19 decisions, are now certiorari rather than de novo.
16:12:23 So basically, you didn't want to have new evidence
16:12:28 taken and people who did not even participate in the
16:12:30 original hearing come back now --
16:12:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If they are a new person, that's
16:12:37 new evidence.
16:12:37 All right.
16:12:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Leave it like it is.
16:12:40 Now at the bottom.

16:12:43 "F."
16:12:43 Is that okay?
16:12:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The only question I had on "F" was
16:12:47 a practical question.
16:12:49 How do you achieve that?
16:12:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Get them to swear.
16:12:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think if we are going to do that,
16:12:57 are we going to ask them question or is it going to be
16:13:00 posted or what?
16:13:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The intention is to have a sign-in
16:13:05 sheet where they -- and I believe council in the past
16:13:08 has done this and I believe where they actually
16:13:13 acknowledge the fact that they are aware of the fact
16:13:14 that they are testifying under oath, and also that
16:13:20 they have the affirmative obligation to disclose.
16:13:23 Council has always, in the course of a hearing, has
16:13:26 always had the opportunity, although it's not
16:13:27 necessarily done as custom, to inquire of somebody
16:13:31 what if you are interested --
16:13:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's what I'm saying.
16:13:35 It comes across as rude and I have been guilty of that
16:13:38 many times.

16:13:39 To inquire of somebody, now, what your interest in the
16:13:43 case.
16:13:43 So I would rather have it be sort of maybe part of the
16:13:46 swearing in, you know, after you say do you solemnly
16:13:49 swear, blah-blah-blah, and if you have an interest you
16:13:51 will disclose it.
16:13:52 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: A financial interest.
16:13:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Could you do it as part of the
16:13:57 swearing in?
16:13:58 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I don't know why not.
16:14:00 And part of this council, part of this process is to
16:14:04 remove the need for me to address the hearing with the
16:14:07 infamous words "have you been sworn?"
16:14:12 And hopefully this process will remove 2 the need for
16:14:15 me to do. That I certainly don't want to be put in
16:14:17 the process of changing my hat from "have you been
16:14:19 sworn" to "what's your interest."
16:14:22 So I'll just make it in the form.
16:14:24 And I'll work with the clerk of the legal department
16:14:26 to make sure that whatever -- we'll have to figure out
16:14:30 a what process.
16:14:33 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The problem with that is people

16:14:36 come and go through the evening.
16:14:37 So what if they aren't aware, you know, have you
16:14:41 signed in, haven't you signed in, blah-blah-blah?
16:14:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If I remember there was a note on
16:14:52 the door and there was a stand and would you sign in
16:14:54 as you came in and there was notice on the door so
16:14:56 would you see it and that would be an automatic thing.
16:14:59 The chair would have a little bit more work to do
16:15:01 because he or she would have five or six pages of
16:15:03 continuous things to work through, but it did work.
16:15:10 >> You all have done it in the past?
16:15:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: County commission, the sign-in, and
16:15:17 hand it to the chairman.
16:15:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
16:15:20 >>MARTIN SHELBY: We'll have September to work out the
16:15:25 process before we take it.
16:15:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 13 or 14?
16:15:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else on page 14?
16:15:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: On 14, item B, again I'm thinking,
16:15:42 some council member who would want to take advantage
16:15:44 of the situation.
16:15:44 Let me explain the purposes that are here.

16:15:47 It's good intended.
16:15:49 An individual member, councilman, may place an item on
16:15:53 a future agenda by the city clerk providing background
16:15:56 material, under rule 7-A which is a rule just ahead of
16:16:00 it.
16:16:00 However, the second part, an item may also be placed
16:16:03 on a future agenda by a majority vote of City Council
16:16:05 members, meaning this -- if I wanted to pass something
16:16:11 or asked this body to help me put something on a
16:16:15 future agenda and I knew I didn't vice-president the
16:16:17 votes, I wouldn't bring it up.
16:16:20 I would go to the clerk's office, give them my
16:16:22 documentation, and it would show up on your agenda by
16:16:26 surprise.
16:16:26 You would have the backup material.
16:16:27 But I don't think in fairness to my other council
16:16:30 members and colleagues that this is the way that I
16:16:32 would like to operate.
16:16:34 And it should be by majority vote of council members.
16:16:38 That's just my feeling.
16:16:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Which is the way we do it right
16:16:44 now.

16:16:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Correct.
16:16:46 But it changes that, sir, and not this council member
16:16:51 honorable body that we have but future council members
16:16:53 to have the opportunity to do that.
16:16:57 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is it council's direction or is it a
16:17:00 motion to remove that item?
16:17:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let's take a vote on this, that it
16:17:04 be placed on the agenda by the majority of council
16:17:06 members.
16:17:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Change the wording.
16:17:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I would remove the first sentence, or
16:17:14 just make -- leave the second sentence, an item may be
16:17:18 placed --
16:17:23 >> By majority of council members.
16:17:25 That's a motion, Madam Chair.
16:17:26 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion?
16:17:28 (Motion carried).
16:17:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: On the bomb bottom, the word should
16:17:33 or shall, I think the word "shall" be there. It's a
16:17:36 much stronger word than "should" but I'm not a lawyer.
16:17:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If I may speak to that.
16:17:42 We are speaking about item "C."

16:17:44 And I think that this is really a philosophical
16:17:47 question.
16:17:48 Item C says basically, if you don't remove an item the
16:17:53 day before then you are SOL in terms of the day of the
16:18:01 council meeting.
16:18:06 And you just have to let it run its course.
16:18:09 I have a problem with that.
16:18:10 For one thing, why oh would council tie its own hands?
16:18:12 I know that I on many indications have received phone
16:18:16 calls on agenda items, late, the night before council,
16:18:19 or everyone the morning of council, not only from
16:18:21 citizens, but from staff, okay?
16:18:26 And sometimes, well, citizens will say, would you pull
16:18:28 that item for a week so we can come down and talk
16:18:31 about it?
16:18:31 Okay.
16:18:33 Staff will answer my question, so if I'm limited by
16:18:38 this, the day before, I might be inclined to pull the
16:18:40 item, because I haven't heard back from staff.
16:18:43 But as it is right now, sometimes staff will come up
16:18:45 to me the morning of the meeting, give me the
16:18:47 information I need, and then I don't have to pull the

16:18:49 item.
16:18:50 >> I agree.
16:18:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think we are taking our hands
16:18:53 totally unnecessary.
16:18:54 I would move to strike "C" completely, because I don't
16:18:56 think it accomplishes anything.
16:18:58 And I think it actually, now, ties our own hands in
16:19:01 regard to the function of the meeting.
16:19:04 And, also, it conflicts with the other item, which is
16:19:09 the approval of the agenda.
16:19:12 I mean, how many months ago, Marty, did we put that on
16:19:15 there so we could actually pull things off the agenda
16:19:18 just for this purpose?
16:19:19 That's what we do now.
16:19:21 We get to the approval of the agenda.
16:19:23 Anybody want to pull anything?
16:19:24 Okay.
16:19:24 Then we move forward.
16:19:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think what we did in county
16:19:29 commission was because it got to the point where you
16:19:31 pull so many items at the last meeting, you couldn't
16:19:34 get staff prepared.

16:19:35 So, therefore, we trade to -- you still pull things on
16:19:40 the day of but we kind of limited because it's very
16:19:43 important that staff know what the questions are in
16:19:45 advance so they would try to answer.
16:19:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm okay if it's flexible and it
16:19:50 says council members should try and pull it on the day
16:19:52 before, or are encouraged to pull it on the day
16:19:55 before.
16:19:56 But I think that it's wrong to tie our own hands and
16:19:59 say you can't do it on the day of.
16:20:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think that the intent is to limit
16:20:05 the last minute pulling an item without having the
16:20:09 administration, everything a question to the
16:20:12 administration in advance so they can properly
16:20:15 responsible.
16:20:16 >>GWEN MILLER: We just pull out of doing that at
16:20:19 regular meetings, and staff don't know we are going to
16:20:21 pull them, they got prepared, so we have a
16:20:24 continuance, sometimes these items need to be passed
16:20:27 and we carry them over for another week.
16:20:29 I think if you pull them earlier the staff can be
16:20:31 prepared and be ready to answer their questions.

16:20:34 But if you wait till council meeting, then you pull
16:20:36 it, and you say, I want to hear from Mrs. Miller.
16:20:40 She doesn't know I'm going to pull it.
16:20:41 If you say this item needed to be passed so we can
16:20:44 move it.
16:20:44 It might be a contract.
16:20:45 It might be some item that has to be done immediately.
16:20:50 Ms. Saul-Sena?
16:20:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think we need flexibility.
16:20:53 And I think that because we are only going to be
16:20:55 having regular council meetings twice a month, we
16:20:58 should try to do it in advance.
16:21:00 But we shouldn't tie our hands and preclude us pulling
16:21:03 something if we need it.
16:21:04 I don't like the word "shall."
16:21:07 >>GWEN MILLER: But are we going to have staff --
16:21:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Staff reports?
16:21:16 Staff reports as presently proposed are to be the very
16:21:22 short, brief report that are items that are pressing,
16:21:25 that your constituents need an answer to immediately
16:21:28 or items of an emergency nature, things that normally
16:21:31 could be answered short, brief, and not necessary to

16:21:36 go into depth like policy issues.
16:21:39 Those will be left for the fourth Thursday.
16:21:41 So the goal -- I'm sorry, Madam Chair.
16:21:44 >>GWEN MILLER: I'm sorry for cutting you off.
16:21:46 Go ahead.
16:21:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The goal of the staff reports on the
16:21:48 first and third is not do it as you presently do it
16:21:51 now but to be able to address items that are pressing
16:21:55 and can be done briefly, rather than get into a long
16:21:58 policy discussion.
16:21:58 So ideally, if council were to discipline itself to
16:22:02 put off workshop items, policy items fought fourth
16:22:06 Thursday, the staff reports should go very quickly.
16:22:09 >>GWEN MILLER: That's why we are saying you should not
16:22:12 pull them on the day that we have council meetings.
16:22:14 It's going to be prolonging the meeting we are doing
16:22:16 now, going on and on, having staff to come over and
16:22:21 answer our questions and we go on and on and on, and
16:22:23 if you pull them before that day, the staff will be
16:22:25 prepared like you say, Mr. Shelby, and have a report,
16:22:28 and you can move our meeting faster.
16:22:31 Mr. Miranda.

16:22:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand and hopefully
16:22:34 recognize all the discussions that have been going on,
16:22:38 on this subject matter we are discussing.
16:22:40 Let me say that all of us have a responsibility to
16:22:44 each other, and if I'm chairman of one committee and
16:22:49 somebody else is chairman of that committee, I expect,
16:22:52 and up to now have received the same honor that they
16:22:54 have taken the time to check those items in their
16:22:58 committee, however, I welcome anybody -- and I'm sure
16:23:03 I'll do the same thing -- to check on anything on my
16:23:05 committee to see if they don't appreciate and maybe
16:23:09 have a question.
16:23:09 And those questions are usually answered by whoever is
16:23:12 in that department and the administration.
16:23:15 There's also that new thing called -- what is it? --
16:23:20 computer.
16:23:20 That's what that is.
16:23:23 Not pewter power but computer power.
16:23:27 That gives you the ability at any time to look at any
16:23:29 subject matter on any given calendar on any given
16:23:32 committee, and tells you what it's for and what it is
16:23:35 and why it's being done and how much is being spent.

16:23:39 So I think that council members should be well
16:23:41 prepared by the time the meeting is on Thursday, way
16:23:46 before Thursday.
16:23:46 And I'm not a computer expert.
16:23:48 But I can at least read.
16:24:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Typically on Tuesday night the
16:24:02 agenda is finalized because typically it hasn't been
16:24:05 finalized until the final agenda on the computer is
16:24:07 typically done by Monday-Tuesday.
16:24:09 By Tuesday toward the end of the day I will look at
16:24:11 the agenda.
16:24:12 I will read every single item.
16:24:13 I don't care what committee it's on because I still
16:24:15 have to vote on it.
16:24:16 I will read every single issue, every single item,
16:24:20 I'll comb through it and if I have a question, I kick
16:24:22 out that question to staff on Wednesday.
16:24:24 Okay.
16:24:28 Sometimes those answers, staff does a good job
16:24:30 generally, but sometimes those answers are late coming
16:24:32 on Wednesday.
16:24:32 And the difference between us and county commission

16:24:34 is, by the way, this is not supposed to be a full-time
16:24:37 job, okay?
16:24:38 Many of us have other jobs to go to.
16:24:43 And -- well, whatever.
16:24:50 The bottom line is to tie the hands and say you want
16:24:52 to pull those items.
16:24:53 I could do that.
16:24:54 And my response to this might be that if I have
16:24:57 questions on the seven or eight items that I have been
16:25:00 generating these e-mails about, I might just go ahead
16:25:03 and send a memo saying I need to pull those seven or
16:25:05 eight items.
16:25:06 That's a lot more items than the one or two items that
16:25:09 I currently pull on the morning of the council
16:25:11 meeting.
16:25:13 I think that's where you would be pushing this council
16:25:16 member if you go with this "shall."
16:25:21 What I would suggest is, a friendlier item "C" might
16:25:24 be council members should attempt to do so in advance.
16:25:29 Other than that, you're tying our hands and you're
16:25:32 boxing us into a corner.
16:25:34 As Charlie said a little while ago, this is not the

16:25:36 administration's agenda, this is council's agenda.
16:25:39 This is our time.
16:25:40 We always want to be cordial to the administration,
16:25:42 work our best with the administration.
16:25:44 But at the end of the day this is our process as well
16:25:46 as the public's.
16:25:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder, this is for us, to move
16:25:52 our agenda more efficiently.
16:25:55 But we keep pulling out --
16:25:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If we pull one or two items.
16:25:59 >>CHAIRMAN: We are still here at 12:00, have a lunch
16:26:06 break, come back at 1:30.
16:26:08 So that's why we are trying to move the agenda so we
16:26:10 can be finished by 12:00 or 12:30 and not take a break
16:26:14 for lunch.
16:26:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm good with "C."
16:26:16 I would add the word "attempt."
16:26:20 Council members should attempt to do so on the day
16:26:23 before, yada yada yada.
16:26:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: To speak to that, Madam Chair,
16:26:28 knife argument against Mr. Dingfelder or Mrs.
16:26:32 Saul-Sena's second on this.

16:26:33 I would like a little addition to it.
16:26:35 Attempt means that you will make every effort, not you
16:26:39 particularly, sir, but all of us would make an effort
16:26:41 to understand, not that we don't understand, but at
16:26:45 that day that you are going to ask for the pulling it,
16:26:48 it be more specific as to why and the reasons be
16:26:52 given.
16:26:52 And, therefore, council can come to a conclusion as to
16:26:57 the factual evidence presented by that council member
16:27:00 at the time that the hearing is being passed or being
16:27:05 pulled.
16:27:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, if I can, I'm sorry, I'll
16:27:08 wait for that motion, but best bring it up now because
16:27:10 it also relates to this.
16:27:14 In discussion with the clerk's office, with chief of
16:27:16 staff Darrell Smith, we talked about the deadline, and
16:27:20 council raised this at its strategic planning meeting,
16:27:23 to move the deadline to receive all petitions,
16:27:27 communications, staff reports, resolutions, ordinances
16:27:29 and other matters, intended for the consideration of
16:27:32 City Council, to be in the clerk's office in their
16:27:35 hands, and the request is to have -- it was originally

16:27:38 from 10 a.m. but to make it Thursday to 2 p.m., I
16:27:42 communicated to the chief of staff that it is the
16:27:44 council's desire as a result of the strategic planning
16:27:48 meeting that it had the opportunity by the weekend to
16:27:53 be able to have the agenda prepared for it.
16:27:59 And Mr. Smith related such a thing is possible.
16:28:01 Obviously it will take the communication of the chief
16:28:03 of staff and his department heads, the administration,
16:28:05 that indeed all communication, staff reports,
16:28:07 memorandum and the like, do have to be received by
16:28:11 2 p.m. on the Thursday prior so that council will have
16:28:13 the opportunity to do that.
16:28:15 It is the intention of this council bits strategic
16:28:20 planning committee that it have the weekend to review
16:28:22 the agenda.
16:28:27 >>GWEN MILLER:
16:28:33 >>GWEN MILLER: I need another word than "attempt."
16:28:40 I attempted to contact the staffer but I didn't get
16:28:42 them.
16:28:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Fine.
16:28:45 But sometimes things happen.
16:28:46 We have words elsewhere like refrain on page 10.

16:28:49 Council members should refrain.
16:28:51 It gives you a little looser, a little more
16:28:53 flexibility out of Curt easy to our members.
16:28:56 I don't think any of our members abusing any of this
16:28:58 process.
16:28:59 I think it's all in the public's best interest.
16:29:01 You know, there is a motion and second.
16:29:03 My motion is to add the word "should attempt to do so"
16:29:07 on the day in advance.
16:29:11 >> A day or more.
16:29:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I call the question on the motion.
16:29:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion on the floor.
16:29:17 All in favor say Aye.
16:29:18 Opposed, Nay.
16:29:21 (Motion carried).
16:29:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Then to Marty's suggestion 2 p.m.
16:29:26 on Thursday.
16:29:47 (off microphone).
16:29:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The item to do for item.
16:29:54 Is to agree with Darrell Smith and say 2 p.m. on
16:29:56 Thursday is the deadline for doc agenda submissions to
16:29:59 the clerk.

16:30:01 >> Second.
16:30:02 >> Motion and second.
16:30:02 (Motion carried).
16:30:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, if I can just add to this
16:30:06 just very briefly because it's very important.
16:30:13 With the council going to a regular meeting the first
16:30:16 and third, that will give the staff an opportunity to
16:30:18 avoid by necessity what they have been doing is
16:30:20 getting memorandum related to agenda items on Tuesdays
16:30:23 or Wednesdays, and perhaps unfortunately everyone the
16:30:26 day of the meeting.
16:30:26 And it's the direction to, and I heard the council
16:30:34 give the direction to the administration to ask that
16:30:36 practice to end and hopefully with these rules in
16:30:38 place, that will address that item.
16:30:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Page 15.
16:30:48 Anything on that?
16:30:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Fine.
16:30:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Page 16.
16:30:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Fine.
16:30:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The only friendly suggestion on
16:30:57 page 16, item 1, it says the clerk shall advertise in

16:31:01 accordance with established procedures consistent with
16:31:03 these rules.
16:31:06 I said this on numerous occasions before and I don't
16:31:08 know if it happens or not.
16:31:10 But we have the television station.
16:31:13 And they have plenty of air time.
16:31:14 And the clerk should roll those openings during the
16:31:20 dead air time.
16:31:21 And it sounds like they are.
16:31:22 So why don't we put that in item one in cooperation
16:31:28 with CTTV or somewhere.
16:31:32 Marty, you come up with some language that CTTV and
16:31:35 the clerk is happy with.
16:31:36 That would be my motion.
16:31:40 It's in addition to whatever other procedures the
16:31:42 clerk does for advertising.
16:31:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe -- and Ms. Foxx-Knowles and
16:31:47 her staff prepared -- and I believe, Ms. Foxx-Knowles,
16:31:51 that is contained within the CTTV.
16:31:55 >>GWEN MILLER: It's already there.
16:31:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Whose rules?
16:31:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: They were the rules that were

16:32:01 prepared by Ms. Foxx-Knowles that were presented by
16:32:04 council.
16:32:04 If would you like them brought back at the same time
16:32:06 for review.
16:32:06 But I believe council did accept those, if I
16:32:09 understand correctly.
16:32:11 9 so the established procedures have already been
16:32:13 approved by council?
16:32:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I don't know, have they been
16:32:17 officially approved?
16:32:18 They were certainly prepared and presented to council.
16:32:22 And I believe Mrs. Foxx-Knowles is saying they are
16:32:25 approved.
16:32:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Then we don't need to put them in
16:32:27 our rules but I wanted to make sure it was codified so
16:32:31 future clerks can do that.
16:32:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'll ask the clerk to give me another
16:32:36 copy or I have a copy and I'll provide it to your
16:32:39 office F.any other council members would like it I'll
16:32:41 provide it.
16:32:41 >>GWEN MILLER: Page 17.
16:32:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I mover we -- in accordance to the

16:32:48 directions of the process.
16:32:53 To include a 30-day notice of resignation.
16:32:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:32:58 (Motion carried)
16:32:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have to compliment Mr. Shelby.
16:33:05 Did you a great job.
16:33:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Basement wait a minute, I have a
16:33:10 question.
16:33:10 Mr. Shelby, we talked about second readings.
16:33:13 We need to discuss that.
16:33:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Second readings are on page 7.
16:33:33 It's my recommendation you state the date of public
16:33:39 hearing.
16:33:40 To let people know it's not coming back in the normal
16:33:42 two weeks but come back in three weeks. This is
16:33:44 significant with the change to the first and the
16:33:46 third.
16:33:46 With no daytime regular meetings scheduled for the
16:33:49 second and fourth Thursday of each month, those day
16:33:52 meetings where the second readings are presently
16:33:54 scheduled two weeks after the evening public hearing
16:33:57 will be eliminated, because you will have CRA meetings

16:34:01 the second Thursday and workshops on the fourth
16:34:05 Tuesday.
16:34:06 State law requires the ordinance be noticed once in a
16:34:08 newspaper of general circulation at least ten days
16:34:11 prior to adoption.
16:34:12 Therefore under current procedures, council, the
16:34:15 second reading public hearing for them to continue to
16:34:19 be heard during the daytime, there will need to be
16:34:21 instead of what is now a two-week gap a three-week gap
16:34:26 between first and second reading and perhaps if you
16:34:27 have no meeting on the fifth Thursday on those months
16:34:30 that there are five Thursdays, there may be an
16:34:33 additional gap of an additional week.
16:34:37 So I'll give you a for instance, council.
16:34:39 If you have the evening of, let's say, September --
16:34:42 excuse me, August 9th, in the evening, under your
16:34:50 soon to be adopted agenda, it would not come back till
16:34:53 the first regular meeting in September.
16:34:56 September 4th, I believe.
16:34:58 So you have to be cognizant of the fact that it will
16:35:02 change the time flow between the first and second
16:35:04 reading because you will not normally have the

16:35:07 opportunity for daytime public hearing two weeks after
16:35:10 the nighttime public hearing.
16:35:15 So there are different ways you can address that.
16:35:17 You can accept that, and from what I have been told,
16:35:20 chapter 27 changes have been working very well
16:35:24 internally.
16:35:25 You now know that there are less continuances because
16:35:28 tough opportunity to have those changes made at the
16:35:30 first meeting and have them certified and brought
16:35:32 back.
16:35:32 So the fact that you may add a week to the agenda, you
16:35:39 will add at least a week to the agenda for the
16:35:42 adoption, is something to be cognizant of.
16:35:45 The other way to address it, council, would be, if you
16:35:50 wish me to go into it, have second readings on the day
16:35:52 of workshop of CRAs.
16:35:54 My feeling is that complicates it.
16:35:56 But other than that --
16:36:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's deal with the first one.
16:36:04 Modify.
16:36:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Three weeks?
16:36:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It gives people who make changes on

16:36:10 the site plan an additional week to get their act
16:36:13 together.
16:36:14 We are hearing things more expeditiously than we used
16:36:17 to.
16:36:20 So, Madam Chairman, I think from the conversation
16:36:25 today, we are going to go with -- I just want to make
16:36:28 sure the administration knows what our dates will be
16:36:30 starting in October.
16:36:31 And I think that we need for the next council meeting
16:36:35 to have the future calendars reflect the new schedule
16:36:40 that we are going to be adopting.
16:36:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: All the way through --
16:36:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: All the way through, starting in
16:36:49 October, we're going to have Council meetings the
16:36:49 first and third, CRA meetings on the second and
16:36:51 workshops on the fourth. We need to start that ASAP
16:36:55 for everybody.
16:36:55 We need to get that word out.
16:36:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Do you want to have that as an agenda
16:37:00 item to review it?
16:37:01 Because obviously it doesn't become official.
16:37:04 First of all what the process will be now.

16:37:06 You just want to put people on notice.
16:37:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We need to let have been know
16:37:11 because I'm afraid the staff are going to be confused,
16:37:14 a new rhythm, and people who pick up the City Council
16:37:18 agenda need to not see the existing structure, they
16:37:21 need to be able to see the new structure.
16:37:23 So my motion would be to request that the city clerk,
16:37:27 beginning in October, and if she wants to put the word
16:37:30 "tentative" in parenthesis, that's cool, but have a
16:37:34 schedule that reflects the conversations today and the
16:37:38 future anticipated actions of council.
16:37:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Wouldn't it really be approve the
16:37:45 calendar in September, first and third, second and
16:37:52 fourth?
16:37:52 That which, when we saw October 1 or whatever it is,
16:37:55 it's already there.
16:37:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes, that's an excellent
16:37:58 suggestion.
16:37:58 I'll second it.
16:38:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:38:01 (Motion carried).
16:38:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe the motion would be

16:38:08 directed to the clerk to bring the annual schedule for
16:38:13 2008 for council approval in the month of September.
16:38:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA:
16:38:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Excuse me, 2008.
16:38:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Let the petitioner know that -- we need
16:38:29 to put that somewhere.
16:38:32 That it's going to be two weeks.
16:38:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Put it in the procedures.
16:38:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: And need to do it for everything
16:38:42 for everybody to let them know about this new
16:38:45 schedule.
16:38:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: At some point, though, I don't know
16:38:49 where we are, we come back and change it because you
16:38:51 are the only one I know that have two meetings.
16:38:54 So come back to us, and I think through the
16:39:03 legislature, right?
16:39:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It is chapter 27 discussion.
16:39:14 On zonings, on small-scale.
16:39:24 >>SAL TERRITO: Under chapter 25, they do zonings by
16:39:27 resolution.
16:39:27 We do zonings by ordinance, chapter 166 requires to us
16:39:31 do that, and requires a change to the general law, 166

16:39:34 to allow a use similar to the county to basically have
16:39:38 a resolution of ordinances of zonings rather than
16:39:43 ordinance.
16:39:43 It's more than a chapter 27 issue.
16:39:45 THE WITNESS: Well, that's true with you one of the
16:39:48 ways that other cities address it, it's my
16:39:50 understanding, speaking with other legal council and
16:39:55 other jurisdictions, that the City of Tampa may be the
16:39:58 only jurisdiction that has two full-blown public
16:40:01 hearings for small-scale rezonings of less than ten
16:40:06 acres.
16:40:07 What a lot of jurisdictions -- and we have had this
16:40:09 discussion.
16:40:09 Maybe this is not the best time to do it but what they
16:40:12 do, they do a first reading as required by law, and
16:40:15 the motion at first reading is to set the second
16:40:18 reading and adoption public hearing when you have the
16:40:22 full blown public hearing for small scale rezonings.
16:40:25 Obviously chapter 27 is scheduled different.
16:40:28 And maybe bring that up at a later date.
16:40:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby, do you want land
16:40:36 development to know to put that on the application,

16:40:42 the second reading three weeks?
16:40:44 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I can relay that to land development.
16:40:46 Again, council, it is important, and I think this is
16:40:49 something that I felt strongly about for a long time,
16:40:51 and I think it appropriate for me to bring it up now.
16:40:55 It's my recommendation that when you go through a
16:40:59 public hearing, the first public hearing, a lot of
16:41:02 people -- and it passes -- a lot of people leave here
16:41:05 thinking it's adopted.
16:41:06 When in fact two weeks or in this case three weeks
16:41:09 later, council has the opportunity for another full
16:41:12 blown public hearing, where people have the
16:41:14 opportunity to remake their case.
16:41:17 So I think, it would be my recommendation, to
16:41:20 incorporate that, and I'll work with the clerk.
16:41:22 I spoke with Mrs. Marshall about that, to incorporate
16:41:24 it into your motion, when you do move it at first
16:41:27 reading, that you announce the date of the
16:41:29 certificated reading and adoption public hearing.
16:41:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I agree with that.
16:41:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We can have the clerk do that,
16:41:36 after she reads the vote, that as a matter of course,

16:41:39 she says "and the next hearing will be."
16:41:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: But I believe it aids the public
16:41:45 especially hearing it and watching it on television to
16:41:47 know when the adoption of public hearing will take
16:41:49 place.
16:41:50 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I agree.
16:41:51 So we need to have a motion.
16:41:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If you want to do that, that would be
16:41:54 very --
16:41:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My motion would be that the clerk
16:41:57 after announcing the vote will then announce the final
16:41:59 hearing adoption, the date and time.
16:42:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Second.
16:42:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:42:07 (Motion carried).
16:42:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Clerk and chairman.
16:42:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I want to point out if anybody has
16:42:17 their agenda, on the back of the agenda, well, this is
16:42:20 important.
16:42:23 On the existing calendar for October, we are supposed
16:42:25 to be, as of the beginning of October, supposed to
16:42:28 only have regular council meetings on the first and

16:42:31 third, which in this case, I believe, looks like it's
16:42:36 the fourth, and then the 18th.
16:42:39 I just want to point this out.
16:42:41 So right now, on the 11th at 9 a.m., it's showing
16:42:46 staff report and unfinished business, showing one
16:42:49 thing that has popped up also showing accommodation to
16:42:54 Carolyn Kosar on that day.
16:42:58 And then on the 25th, which is the fifth Thursday,
16:43:01 it's showing some similar things at 9:00 in the
16:43:07 morning.
16:43:08 Well, I just don't want to let it get away from us.
16:43:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's address that now.
16:43:18 Let's Chip those things, the second and the third.
16:43:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's why in September when we know
16:43:28 everything will be changed.
16:43:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Shelby, when will you have it ready
16:43:31 in September?
16:43:32 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, I would ask that be a clerk
16:43:34 function because --
16:43:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Two weeks from now?
16:43:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It should be next week.
16:43:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I don't know how long it will take

16:43:41 the clerk to prepare those items that have to be
16:43:44 rescheduled as a result of this to be brought back to
16:43:47 council.
16:43:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Exactly.
16:43:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Do you want to do it next week?
16:43:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It needs to happen sooner than
16:43:54 later.
16:43:55 >> I agree with that.
16:43:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: In all due respect I believe that's a
16:43:58 clerk function.
16:43:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Is that part of the motion earlier
16:44:01 that that get addressed next week?
16:44:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I don't know whether it's clear.
16:44:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Why don't we move the clerk bring back
16:44:10 to us next week the change in our calendar.
16:44:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
16:44:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:44:17 (Motion carried)
16:44:19 Anything else?
16:44:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is that clean?
16:44:25 >>GWEN MILLER: We stand adjourned.
16:44:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Oh, wait, Madam Chair.

16:44:30 Your agenda requires that you ask if there's anybody
16:44:32 from the public.
16:44:34 But nobody is here.
16:44:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Anybody in the empty chairs like to
16:44:39 speak?
16:44:40 [ Laughter ]
16:44:40 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, thank you very much.
16:44:45 >> Thank you.
16:44:46 Very good job.
16:44:47 >> Thank