Tampa City Council
Thursday, January 17, 2008
9:00 a.m. session
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09:09:24 [Sounding gavel]
09:09:25 >>CHAIRMAN GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called
09:09:25 to order.
09:09:39 One second.
09:09:40 A little delay and we'll be ready in a second.
09:09:42 >> Technical difficulties.
09:10:14 The chair will yield to Ms. Linda Saul-Sena.
09:10:16 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It is my great pleasure this
09:10:18 morning to introduce a friend and the director of the
09:10:21 local chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union,
09:10:25 Becky Steele, a local jurist and wonderful community
09:10:30 activist and leader to share an invocation with us.
09:10:33 Let us stand for the invocation and remain standing
09:10:36 for the pledge of allegiance of allegiance.
09:10:46 >>> For those you who heard me give the invocation
09:10:49 before I want to give a little recap that luckily, I
09:10:51 don't think it's appropriate to impose my religious
09:10:58 beliefs on a public meeting, and I am a member of the
09:11:02 Society of Friends known as the Quakers and we believe
09:11:09 for 10 or 15 minutes to contemplate the will of God.
09:11:13 But for the sake of your agenda perhaps it's more
09:11:16 appropriate that I invoke today looking at Martin
09:11:20 Luther King holiday coming in front of us, I thought
09:11:22 it was appropriate to invoke the spirit of our
09:11:25 ancestors and freedom.
09:11:26 First we have the inspirational example of Dr. Martin
09:11:28 Luther King himself, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for
09:11:33 his civil rights work including the boycott and his
09:11:38 inspirational fundamental "I have a dream" speech.
09:11:42 He died too soon at age 39 but still leaves for us an
09:11:46 example of what can be done.
09:11:47 Also am inspired by Latisha Monte, also very active in
09:11:55 the movement to abolish slavery because she understand
09:11:58 that is if none of us are free, if there are some of
09:12:03 us who are not free, none of us have true freedom.
09:12:06 Then we can look at the founders of this great
09:12:08 country, Madison, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and so
09:12:12 many others who gave us the gift of a remarkable Bill
09:12:15 of Rights that still serves us today, although it is
09:12:18 under a cap, to give us some of the most freedoms that
09:12:22 are available.
09:12:24 The opportunity to protect our liberties is not over.
09:12:26 In fact, in some ways our freedoms are under attack
09:12:29 more than ever.
09:12:31 You yourself may be able to relate to those who are
09:12:33 told by the government, don't say that, don't ask
09:12:37 that, don't do that.
09:12:39 There's a word that comes to mind when thinking of
09:12:43 these inspirational ancestors, gumption, the
09:12:53 So today I invoke the inspirational example of these
09:12:57 May they give you the gumption to remember why you ran
09:13:00 for office in the first place, even in the most
09:13:02 mundane zoning decisions, there is the chance to do
09:13:05 the right thing.
09:13:06 How much more important is it to you to carry that
09:13:09 spirit forward when it comes to actions that implicate
09:13:12 the freedoms of us all.
09:13:14 Thank you.
09:13:16 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:13:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Becky, we are elected officials.
09:13:34 We can never sit quietly for 15 minutes.
09:13:36 It would be impossible.
09:13:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:13:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:13:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:13:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:13:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:13:45 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:13:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:13:47 I would like to put on the record that Ms. Mary
09:13:49 Mulhern will not be here due to a family illness.
09:13:52 At this time we have the firefighter of the quarter by
09:13:54 Reverend Scott.
09:14:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Madam Chair and to all the
09:14:15 members of the City Council.
09:14:16 Thank you.
09:14:17 It is my privilege and pleasure for this quarter to be
09:14:22 able to present the commendation and introduce a
09:14:26 person who has done so much for this community, and as
09:14:29 always, we cannot recognize those who give so much
09:14:35 back and who place their lives on the line every day
09:14:39 for us.
09:14:39 And so I am going to ask Chief Jones first to come and
09:14:42 introduce the person.
09:14:43 Then I'll come back and read the proclamation.
09:14:49 >> Madam Chair, councilman Scott, members of the
09:14:52 council, it is a high privilege to be here today to
09:14:55 present the firefighter of the quarter.
09:14:57 I would like to say we have an extra large crowd today
09:15:00 because firefighter of the quarter crew was able to be
09:15:04 here, they are on call and they may have to run out
09:15:06 the door quickly.
09:15:07 But thank you for letting us go first.
09:15:10 Every hour of every day, Tampa firefighters are
09:15:14 providing firefighting and emergency medical services
09:15:17 to the citizens of Tampa, most of whom they don't
09:15:19 know, or families, members that they have never met.
09:15:23 Today's firefighter of the quarter, Dan Lumbard, is a
09:15:28 driver engineer assigned to station 9 on the A shift
09:15:32 in West Tampa.
09:15:32 And on November 9th he was off duty at a football
09:15:36 game at Jesuit high school, and when he was leaving
09:15:38 the game, he noticed the car in front of him run
09:15:41 through a stop sign, so he followed this car for a
09:15:44 short distance and the car pulled off the road, ran
09:15:48 off the road, he went up to check the car and found
09:15:51 the individual behind the steering wheel to be
09:15:53 unconscious, appeared that they were seizing.
09:15:57 He quickly removed the individual, called 911, and
09:16:00 began CPR.
09:16:02 He was not breathing.
09:16:03 Quickly, fire rescue units arrived and provided
09:16:06 advanced life support and transported to the hospital.
09:16:12 And because of driver engineer Lombard being in the
09:16:16 right place at the right time and the quick response
09:16:18 of our crews, the 64-year-old gentleman Ernest Garcia,
09:16:22 Sr., was saved.
09:16:26 Not only did they save the life of a life-long
09:16:31 resident of Tampa, but they also saved the lives of a
09:16:35 firefighter's father.
09:16:37 Dan Lombard had never met Ernie Garcia but found out
09:16:46 afterwards the life he had saved was the father of a
09:16:50 And I believe it was the first opportunity that Mr.
09:16:52 Garcia, Sr., had to meet Dan.
09:16:54 We have today in the audience, and I would like for
09:16:58 all of you to stand, Mr. Garcia, who was the recipient
09:17:01 of the good care by Tampa Fire Rescue.
09:17:04 [ Applause ]
09:17:05 Mr. Garcia's wife, his son, Ernie, Jr., who I think is
09:17:19 a 23 year veteran of Tampa Fire Rescue, Mr. Garcia's
09:17:23 daughter, Josell and her husband Rich.
09:17:26 Also present with our firefighter of the quarter is
09:17:37 Dan Lombard as Dan's parents, Frank and Mary Ann, and
09:17:44 son Scott, who is a Steelers fan.
09:17:47 And I want to share a letter of appreciation that
09:17:53 Ernie Garcia, Jr. wrote.
09:17:55 He stated that because of the professionalism and
09:17:56 dedication to service, the Tampa Fire Rescue and the
09:18:02 responders, my family will be able to spend this
09:18:05 holiday with my father.
09:18:07 And he says my family and friends are very
09:18:10 appreciative for what Dan Lombard did.
09:18:12 He gave my father his life back using skills and
09:18:16 training that Tampa Fire Rescue provides to all of its
09:18:20 In nominating Dan Lombard his captain says Dan's
09:18:25 actions go to the very core of what our job is all
09:18:27 about, saving lives and protecting property, and truly
09:18:30 a firefighter is never off duty.
09:18:32 And today, we went want to credit Dan Lombard, a 20
09:18:39 year veteran, his life saving experts while off duty
09:18:43 made our department proud, and more importantly saved
09:18:45 the life of someone very dear to us.
09:18:51 Driver engineer Lombard.
09:18:53 [ Applause ]
09:18:56 Also with that.
09:19:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We would like to present the Tampa
09:19:07 City Council commendation to driver engineer Lombard,
09:19:12 and all the information read by Chief Jones included
09:19:15 in this commendation, and it's great pleasure and
09:19:19 honor to present this on behalf of our chairman and
09:19:21 the entire City Council, this distinguished
09:19:25 commendation for your bravery and for your commitment
09:19:34 in the city of Tampa, Florida.
09:19:36 [ Applause ]
09:19:37 There are other presentations and gifts and all the
09:19:43 wonderful things that come with this.
09:19:45 >>> Steve Stickley representing Stepps towing service.
09:19:51 Dan, that's truly an amazing story, it really is.
09:19:54 On behalf of Jim and Judy Stepp of Stepp's towing
09:20:02 service, we are very proud of you and your family.
09:20:05 Thank you so much.
09:20:06 We also have a gift certificate to Lee Roy Selmon's.
09:20:16 >>> On behalf of the Florida Aquarium, my name is Tom
09:20:18 Wagner, we are very proud to have you as part of our
09:20:21 And I would like to thank you for a family pass for
09:20:27 you and your family.
09:20:30 [ Applause ]
09:20:36 >>> We would like to thank you for your fine effort of
09:20:41 heroism and invite you and your family out to Lowry
09:20:51 >>> Danny Lewis from Bill Curry Ford.
09:20:55 I don't know what else to say.
09:21:00 Thank you.
09:21:03 >>STEVE MICHELINI: One of the things that happens is
09:21:09 when people go to work for law enforcement, they go to
09:21:13 work for public safety, regardless of the agency, they
09:21:16 get training that teaches them to do what they are
09:21:18 supposed to do, and they don't even think about it.
09:21:22 So that's one of the things that is of extra benefit
09:21:26 and everyone appreciates that.
09:21:27 I know the firefighters and police officers put their
09:21:30 lives on the line every single day.
09:21:31 And he would certainly appreciate what you have done.
09:21:39 Bryn Allen studios would like to present to you a
09:21:42 photographic package for you and your family to have
09:21:44 your portraits taken.
09:21:45 You can take that to your home or give it to the chief
09:21:49 and put in the station, if he will let you do that.
09:21:52 [ Laughter ]
09:21:54 Bern's steak house would like to provide you with a
09:21:57 $100 gift certificate so you can go enjoy that and
09:22:00 have some fine dining.
09:22:02 You have already received your award from Stepps
09:22:07 On behalf of the towing association worry providing
09:22:10 you with a $50 gift certificate, your choice Lee Roy
09:22:13 Selmon Expressway, Outback, Carabbas, wherever you
09:22:16 want to go.
09:22:17 And a new sponsor is rigatoni's restaurant on Kennedy
09:22:22 And they want to make sure you have a color
09:22:24 coordinated T-shirt.
09:22:27 It's red.
09:22:28 And if it's not the right size you will have to
09:22:30 exchange it when you get over to their restaurant,
09:22:34 [ Applause ]
09:22:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Your time now.
09:22:47 >>> All right.
09:22:50 I was doing my job.
09:22:53 And like Ernie said, we are always on duty, and it was
09:23:00 the need to serve, and I felt it needs to be done, and
09:23:04 what a surprise it was, and I'm so extra thankful that
09:23:08 I was able to help somebody, a brother, and all of
09:23:17 this is really nice and I accept it, in Mr. Garcia's
09:23:22 And I'm just pleased that he is doing well.
09:23:26 And he told me to get back to work and I'm just most
09:23:31 thrilled with that.
09:23:32 Thank you all very much.
09:23:34 [ Applause ]
09:23:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much for this
09:23:46 Thank you, firefighter Lombard.
09:23:49 The Garcia family and I grew up very close together.
09:23:52 And Ernie taught me how to whistle, taught me how to
09:24:00 play volleyball.
09:24:01 You see he has white hair so each much older than I.
09:24:05 And station 9, the gentleman there must go to the same
09:24:08 barber that I do but I know I go to station 9 a couple
09:24:11 times a year, and they are pretty good at playing ball
09:24:15 but they have an awful hard time hitting a cork ball,
09:24:21 and some do and most don't, but there's one guy who
09:24:24 hits it, and that guy is Preidel.
09:24:31 I can't wait to get to you.
09:24:33 And you're on, brother, for next month.
09:24:35 I'm doing my exercises now.
09:24:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think they I know why they showed
09:24:43 up, not only to honor their brother but to see who he
09:24:49 was going to take to all those dinners.
09:24:51 >>GWEN MILLER: At this time we are going to have the
09:24:53 police Officer of the Month presented by Reverend
09:24:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you again, Madam Chair.
09:25:01 Again it is my honor to have on behalf of City Council
09:25:07 to be able to present this morning the Officer of the
09:25:09 Month as firefighter of the quarter.
09:25:20 With the crew.
09:25:20 >>GWEN MILLER: I think you have to wait a few minutes,
09:25:23 Reverend Scott.
09:25:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Again it's my honor to present the
09:25:42 Officer of the Month.
09:25:43 I am going to ask Chief Hogue, he and officer Jones to
09:25:49 come forward at this time.
09:25:50 And then I'll turn it over to him to come back and say
09:25:54 a bit more.
09:25:54 Chief Hogue.
09:25:56 >>CHIEF HOGUE: Good morning, council.
09:25:58 Once again I thank you for recognizing our Officer of
09:26:00 the Month.
09:26:01 It's a great pleasure for January of '08 to announce
09:26:06 that Amy Jones has been selected from the Tampa Police
09:26:09 Department to be our Officer of the Month.
09:26:12 Amy has done some incredible things over the course of
09:26:14 her career, but we are acknowledging her.
09:26:18 You heard me last week when I was here for the
09:26:21 February officer talk about the quad squads.
09:26:25 Well, Amy is part of our CEPS squads at the police
09:26:30 By doing so she's done some incredible things over the
09:26:34 course of her tenure, like I said.
09:26:37 A lot of times, she's required to do decoy work, in
09:26:43 the very high crime areas of the city, undercover,
09:26:48 usually because she's a female it's unique that
09:26:50 assignment is generally unique to females, and it's a
09:26:54 particularly dangerous assignment because you are out
09:26:57 there by yourself.
09:26:58 You have some officers covering you.
09:26:59 But you actually are talking to the suspects by
09:27:05 yourself and making the cases by yourself.
09:27:07 And that's what she does best.
09:27:11 She's being recognized as Officer of the Month.
09:27:16 She arrested some serial burglars, auto thieves,
09:27:20 robbers, wanted sexual offender all in the course of
09:27:23 about six weeks.
09:27:24 She recovered in one case a stolen car, crack cocaine,
09:27:31 over 12, $1300 worth of cash which the police
09:27:34 department likes because he would get to copy it.
09:27:37 And so we always appreciate that.
09:27:40 She arrested a sexual offender that had a million
09:27:42 dollar bond on him.
09:27:43 You can imagine what he must have done to warrant
09:27:48 One of the things that I particularly appreciate about
09:27:53 Amy is she had a stolen car that she found, occupied,
09:28:02 and, now, stolen cars just about inevitably go to
09:28:05 pursuits because the thief and the crook that's inside
09:28:07 of them doesn't want to get caught, they think they
09:28:09 are immune from being caught because they are in a
09:28:12 stolen car and won't come back to them and they tend
09:28:15 to flee.
09:28:15 So it is a talent and it is a skill that you can get
09:28:21 people stopped before it goes to a pursuit, and that
09:28:24 way you limit the danger to the community, to the
09:28:26 officer, even to the suspect by doing that.
09:28:30 And we do that by jamming cars in.
09:28:33 It has to be coordinated.
09:28:35 In this case Amy did all of that.
09:28:37 She got additional units in the area.
09:28:38 Of course she was in a covert vehicle.
09:28:41 She was able to sneak up on them, jam the car in with
09:28:45 several other cars and they just got caught right
09:28:48 On the other case, where she stopped and got the
09:28:52 sexual offender, of course he fled from her, on foot.
09:28:56 So she just ran him down and tackled him and held him
09:29:01 for other officers to get there.
09:29:03 She does it all.
09:29:04 We are very proud of her.
09:29:05 And we are honored to announce that Amy Jones is our
09:29:08 Officer of the Month for January 2008.
09:29:11 [ Applause ]
09:29:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Chief Hogue.
09:29:20 Again on behalf of the Tampa City Council, the
09:29:24 chairman, all the members, we would like to present
09:29:26 this commendation to officer Amy Jones, all of the
09:29:31 particulars as outlined by the chief also in this
09:29:34 But, you know, when you think about all that you just
09:29:38 heard, what you read about here, that is really doing
09:29:45 what you have been trained to do, been assigned to do,
09:29:48 and says a lot about you and says a lot also about the
09:29:53 And you need to know that we really appreciate your
09:29:55 hard work and all that you do.
09:29:59 On behalf of the Tampa City Council, I would like to
09:30:02 present this plaque to you, as well as $100 gift
09:30:06 certificate to Charlie's as well.
09:30:09 [ Applause ]
09:30:11 Other gifts?
09:30:14 >> Danny Lewis from Bill Currie Ford.
09:30:17 I can attest that Amy is a fairly aggressive law
09:30:21 enforcement officer because she asked me if I had any
09:30:24 outstanding warrants.
09:30:26 [ Laughter ]
09:30:26 I said, I don't think so.
09:30:27 But I'm honored this morning to present you this
09:30:31 And long hours and in the car by yourself and thinking
09:30:36 nobody appreciates what you do, this is a small
09:30:38 reminder that we do.
09:30:40 [ Applause ]
09:30:41 >>> Steve Stickley representing Stepp's towing.
09:30:48 On behalf of Jim and Judy Stepp of Stepp's towing
09:30:54 service, we appreciate what you, do keeping everybody
09:30:57 Thank you so much for what you do out there.
09:30:59 And a gift certificate to Lee Roy Selmon.
09:31:08 >> Tom Wagner, on behalf of the Florida Aquarium we
09:31:11 thank you for all that you are doing out there in the
09:31:13 community and keeping the community safe and an annual
09:31:18 membership for you and your guests.
09:31:24 Enjoy it.
09:31:25 [ Applause ]
09:31:30 >>STEVE MICHELINI: How big was that guy that you
09:31:35 I've got a job for you.
09:31:36 It's over at Tampa stadium.
09:31:39 As small as you are, those guys need some help.
09:31:41 These guys from New York came down here and they beat
09:31:44 up on us and we want to enlist you to help the
09:31:46 Buccaneers out a little bit. Anyway, Lee Roy Selmons
09:31:51 is going to allow to you go over there and have some
09:31:53 dinner on behalf of the towing association.
09:31:59 On behalf of the Bryn Allen studios we would like to
09:32:01 have you have your photograph taken and you can take
09:32:07 I don't know if the chief will let do you this or not
09:32:09 but you can hang that picture wherever you want.
09:32:11 On behalf of Bern's steakhouse we would like to
09:32:14 provide with you a $100 gift certificate to enjoy the
09:32:18 dining over there.
09:32:19 And I guess that's the end of the line except for the
09:32:24 And I'm sure this T-shirt is not going to be too
09:32:30 But if you want a different size, they'll trade it out
09:32:32 for you.
09:32:33 But I told the chief earlier that this is as close as
09:32:37 we get to the police officers colors.
09:32:42 I know it's not the sheriff's office but it's close.
09:32:44 We all recognize this is law enforcement.
09:32:48 And congratulations.
09:32:49 [ Applause ]
09:32:54 >>> I would just like to say thank you to City Council
09:32:57 for the recognition you guys provide each month to us
09:33:01 officers, and to the businesses.
09:33:04 Thank you so very much for the things provided here.
09:33:07 Both are very much appreciated.
09:33:08 Thank you.
09:33:10 [ Applause ]
09:33:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Officer, congratulations and thank
09:33:17 you for your hard work.
09:33:18 One thing that seems to be a common theme among the
09:33:22 officers who are here today as well as other officers
09:33:24 that you bring to us, Chief Hogue and Chief Jones, is
09:33:28 really they are almost shy and they are so humble, and
09:33:33 they just go out day in and day out and do their job
09:33:37 and they are never off duty and we know that, and we
09:33:39 appreciate it so much.
09:33:40 Thank you.
09:33:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Would lieutenant junior grade Garrett
09:33:49 Meyer please come forward.
09:33:50 It is my honor today to give this to another honorable
09:34:17 young man who is representing our country and I'm so
09:34:19 happy to be able to give this to him.
09:34:21 It's a commendation presented to lieutenant junior
09:34:25 grade Garrett Meyer.
09:34:27 We the members of Tampa City Council give this
09:34:30 commendation in sincere appreciation for your years of
09:34:34 dedicated service and outstanding performance to the
09:34:37 United States Coast Guard and to the youth of Tampa,
09:34:39 Hillsborough County.
09:34:41 Lieutenant junior grade Meyer has served as assistant
09:34:45 coach and a mentor to a group of 24 young men from the
09:34:48 City of Tampa, Hillsborough County, helping them to
09:34:51 develop and enhance their physical fitness levels,
09:34:54 confidence, self-esteem, knowledge of the game of
09:34:58 basketball, leadership and overall appreciation for
09:35:01 academic sportsmanship, while maintaining his assigned
09:35:05 duties in the United States Coast Guard,
09:35:08 St. Petersburg, Florida.
09:35:10 With much pride and distinction your leadership
09:35:13 abilities, your valuable time, and your personal
09:35:16 finances helped the north Tampa Spartan youth
09:35:18 basketball team to winning their division, to have
09:35:26 five players on the all-star team.
09:35:28 Team posted an unmatched season record of 16 wins and
09:35:32 two losses to the team's accomplishments.
09:35:34 But these and many other reasons we absolute you,
09:35:37 lieutenant junior grade Meyer, and wish you the very
09:35:40 best in your years to come.
09:35:44 [ Applause ]
09:35:47 >>> First I would like to thank you, Madam Chair, and
09:35:52 the City Council for giving me the opportunity.
09:35:54 It's definitely an honor to be up here especially with
09:35:56 the real heros that I just saw go before me.
09:35:59 Also I would like to thank the representatives of
09:36:03 St. Petersburg, my friends and my ship mates.
09:36:05 They definitely took up a little bit of the slack when
09:36:07 I had to go battle the 5:00 traffic across Howard
09:36:11 I would like to thank head coach forward for your
09:36:16 friendship and allowing me the opportunity to be your
09:36:19 assistant coach.
09:36:21 You are definitely out there with us all the time.
09:36:23 I think I speak for all of us volunteers, all this is
09:36:28 very nice.
09:36:29 Our true reward came from being out there with those
09:36:31 boys and watching them develop and grow.
09:36:35 Any opportunity I can have, I would definitely take it
09:36:38 especially if I was working for coach forward.
09:36:41 Thank you.
09:36:42 [ Applause ]
09:36:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's my pleasure this morning to
09:36:56 introduce Nicole Lougy, a senior at USF working with
09:37:03 me as an intern, a major in accounting and next fall
09:37:06 she'll begin her MBA in public policy.
09:37:08 So Nicole, welcome to City Council.
09:37:12 >>CHAIRMAN: Now he would go to Mr. Shelby.
09:37:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: (off microphone).
09:37:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved for eleven.
09:37:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Will that be a time certain that we
09:37:59 will stop our business?
09:38:01 >>CHAIRMAN: At 11 a.m.?
09:38:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Stop right there and listen.
09:38:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
09:38:07 (Motion carried).
09:38:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: (off microphone).
09:38:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved, item 64.
09:38:27 (Motion carried).
09:38:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: On item 66, the ethics commission did
09:38:34 not meet in December.
09:38:35 They are meeting at 3:00 today.
09:38:37 I will be attending that meeting and ask that item be
09:38:40 continued to either February 7th or because
09:38:42 there's a lot of second readings on that day, if
09:38:44 council wishes to make it the next meeting, the
09:38:46 21st, it's council's choice but I'll be prepared
09:38:49 whatever council wishes.
09:38:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move the 24th.
09:38:52 >> Second.
09:38:52 (Motion carried).
09:38:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: With regard to item number 72, you
09:38:58 have a request from Cynthia Miller to receive and file
09:39:01 her documents in lieu of an appearance.
09:39:04 >> So moved.
09:39:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
09:39:08 (Motion carried).
09:39:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: With regard to item 74, council, you
09:39:11 have previously discussed the fact that this is going
09:39:13 to be a time certain so a reminder to the public that
09:39:16 council will be stopping its agenda to take up the
09:39:19 item on the Peter O. Knight airport with Mr. Lewis
09:39:23 Miller who has been invited and a reminder that under
09:39:26 council's rules, public comment for staff reports and
09:39:28 unfinished business is set for public comment early on
09:39:33 in the agenda which takes place after the approval of
09:39:35 the agenda, and that is when people would have the
09:39:37 opportunity under council's rules to make comments on
09:39:40 that item at that time.
09:39:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I received a request from the
09:39:46 president of the Davis Island civic association that
09:39:48 the members of the community who want to speak on this
09:39:53 be allowed to speak following Mr. Miller's
09:39:56 So I would like to move to waive council's rules to
09:39:58 allow the members of the Davis Island civic
09:40:01 association to speak after Mr. Miller's presentation.
09:40:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll second it for discussion, and
09:40:09 I see our former esteemed member Rudy Fernandez in the
09:40:14 Rudy, how many folks would you expect from Davis
09:40:16 Island to be speaking?
09:40:23 >>> Rudy Fernandez, 107 Martinique.
09:40:27 I know the president of the civic association wants to
09:40:28 speak and she won't be here until 11:00.
09:40:31 And there are probably four or five other people that
09:40:33 represent the civic association that each want to give
09:40:36 a three-minute piece of their particular aspect of
09:40:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Since it was scheduled for a time
09:40:43 certain, there might have been some confusion in terms
09:40:45 of people thinking when they might show up.
09:40:47 So I would second the motion and concur that we defer
09:40:51 that and let folks speak during that period of time
09:40:54 when the discussion is going on.
09:40:56 I think it's appropriate.
09:40:58 And I think that folks put in enough time on this
09:41:00 issue that they deserve to be heard at that time.
09:41:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, I have a little problem with
09:41:07 I think what we need to do is, Madam Chairman, can't
09:41:14 stop the agenda for public speaking.
09:41:17 What they need to do is select a spokesperson and
09:41:19 allow them maybe five or six minutes to speak and
09:41:22 represent the civic association.
09:41:23 Otherwise you could be here -- I have no problem if
09:41:28 they want to speak, but the problem I have is allow a
09:41:36 spokesperson instead of having ten people come up and
09:41:39 >> What would you suggest, speak at 11:00, Reverend
09:41:43 What are you saying?
09:41:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Madam Chair, let me say this, this
09:41:49 started back in '99 if my memory is correct.
09:41:51 There were some meetings that started the 7th of
09:41:53 January and went on.
09:41:56 Not only the discussions here but he would went to the
09:41:58 Davis Island civic association meeting, it was all
09:42:01 laid out, all explained, there are some council
09:42:04 members here today that were there back in '99.
09:42:07 I was one of them and it went all the way through the
09:42:09 21st or 22nd of January of '99.
09:42:13 There's a long script, a lot of discussion in there,
09:42:17 and it's about B, C, and D, and what happened to those
09:42:20 properties and how were they supposed to be handled at
09:42:24 the present time or in the future, there was talk in
09:42:27 those discussions about jet planes and so forth and so
09:42:30 on, and prop planes and noise variances, and although
09:42:36 I agree with Mr. Scott that he would continue to
09:42:38 change these rules, if we have them changed why do we
09:42:42 have the rules?
09:42:43 Just abide by the rule or don't have the rule.
09:42:46 But in this case since I know that this started back
09:42:48 in '99 and I want to give every side a fair chance,
09:42:52 and I think that the fair chance would be just like we
09:42:56 do at zoning hearings.
09:42:57 Present a major presentation, give individuals that
09:43:00 are for or against speak on it and then you close.
09:43:04 You have a little rebuttal time, and that's it.
09:43:06 But I agree with you on the item that we continue to
09:43:11 change the rules as we choose, and there's nothing
09:43:13 wrong with that, but I think if a rule is there, the
09:43:16 rule is there, but I really feel that both sides
09:43:19 should have the discussion at the time of the
09:43:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Except for one thing, though. I don't
09:43:26 have a problem with speaking after the presentation.
09:43:29 I have a problem with ten people getting up and
09:43:30 speaking as opposed to selecting a spokesperson who
09:43:33 represent it is Davis Island civic association, who
09:43:36 will be given eight, ten minutes.
09:43:40 They speak, and just move on as opposed to allowing
09:43:43 everybody three minutes to come up and speak.
09:43:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Perhaps the way to address your
09:43:48 concern is to say that the Davis Island civic
09:43:51 association as a group will be allowed ten minutes,
09:43:53 and maybe one person will speak for ten minutes or
09:43:55 maybe three.
09:43:56 I know that they have been practicing and people have
09:43:59 different areas of expertise so I would like to amend
09:44:01 my motion to give the Davis Island association ten
09:44:04 No more than ten minutes.
09:44:07 At 11:00.
09:44:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And I'll second that motion.
09:44:10 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:44:12 (Motion carried).
09:44:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, a clarification.
09:44:19 If there are those people who want to speak on this
09:44:21 item who are not associated with the Davis Island
09:44:24 association civic association, they should speak
09:44:26 during public comment, just so that people who are not
09:44:30 associated with that organization --
09:44:32 >>GWEN MILLER: Will not speak during the 11:00
09:44:38 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Per council rules.
09:44:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Who will be the spokesperson for the
09:44:43 Davis Island --
09:44:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let them figure it out.
09:44:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, the problem is, we don't want
09:44:51 them to speak on public comment and then come back and
09:44:53 speak again.
09:44:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: They won't.
09:44:54 They are grown up.
09:44:56 >>> Lee DeVito is the president and what we'll do is
09:45:04 ask her to allocate the ten minutes.
09:45:06 >> But they won't speak --
09:45:08 >>> but they will speak after the 11:00 hearing
09:45:11 Thank you.
09:45:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Also for informational purposes, item
09:45:17 77 is a time certain, it cannot be heard since the
09:45:20 petitioner hasn't filed the affidavit.
09:45:21 Item 84 is also a wet zoning public hearing for a time
09:45:25 There will be a request to withdraw at that time.
09:45:28 With regard to item 86, you received a request, or the
09:45:32 clerk has received a request to have that petitioner
09:45:36 for a 90-day continuance.
09:45:38 The other party, which is related to the other appeal
09:45:41 in this case, is represented by Mr. John Grandoff.
09:45:45 He's here now.
09:45:46 Again that is set for a time certain at 10:00.
09:45:48 I don't know when council wishes to take that up.
09:45:52 Item 86.
09:45:53 That's tied to the other -- it's a continued public
09:45:57 hearing so council, really, unless you want --
09:46:00 >>GWEN MILLER: At 10:00.
09:46:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes.
09:46:01 Finally, council with, regard to item 9, that's also
09:46:04 another appeal hearing, and that cannot be heard and
09:46:06 that will have to be removed at that time.
09:46:09 Thank you.
09:46:09 Also, council, with regard to removal from the consent
09:46:14 docket for discussion, or separate vote, there has
09:46:16 been an e-mail from council member Dingfelder
09:46:20 requesting items 13 and 23 to be removed from council
09:46:27 >>CHAIRMAN: Which one is that again?
09:46:30 >> 13 and 23.
09:46:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think because he would do have a
09:46:36 busy morning, I think what I would like to do, I
09:46:39 haven't had a chance to speak.
09:46:40 I know Mrs. Palus tried to call in this morning and I
09:46:44 haven't had a chance to talk to her.
09:46:45 What is our next meeting?
09:46:47 >> Mr. Dingfelder, I talked to the parks people today,
09:46:53 and it's really important, because there's some kind
09:46:57 of bid going out.
09:46:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If they want to come tell me the
09:47:00 urgency those fine.
09:47:01 I was trying to save council time today, if we could
09:47:04 defer to the next week.
09:47:08 >>CHAIRMAN: I think we need to let them come and let
09:47:11 us know.
09:47:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's fine.
09:47:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Item 13, yes, so we can move it.
09:47:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Also on number 18 I would like to pull
09:47:21 that item for discussion, please.
09:47:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Do you wish to have a staff member
09:47:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:47:39 >>CHAIRMAN: Need to approve the agenda.
09:47:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So moved.
09:47:42 >> Second.
09:47:42 (Motion carried).
09:47:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
09:47:45 would like to request legislative decision, to request
09:47:50 approval -- reconsideration?
09:47:54 We now go to our audience portion.
09:47:56 Anyone in the public that would like to speak, you may
09:47:58 speak to any item on the agenda not to be heard by
09:48:01 public hearing.
09:48:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Again a reminder, council, you set
09:48:10 aside 30 minutes for this purpose, with preference
09:48:14 again to those items on the agenda first.
09:48:16 >>> My name is Mary Anna Gilbert, 114 East Davis
09:48:24 In support of the Hillsborough County Aviation
09:48:26 Authority's master plan for Peter O. Knight and their
09:48:30 immediate project to reconfigure runway 3/21 of the
09:48:35 federally mandated safety regulations to build
09:48:38 additional hangars along Seddon Channel.
09:48:40 I strongly urge City Council of Tampa to support these
09:48:44 necessary and beneficial improvements to Peter O.
09:48:48 As an operator and long-time tenant of Peter O.
09:48:53 Knight, a professional airline pilot for Delta
09:48:55 airlines, I want the City Council to support in their
09:48:59 endeavor to keep Peter O. Knight a part of downtown
09:49:04 Tampa's economic success but my main concern is
09:49:07 Regrettably, some accidents cannot be prevented by any
09:49:11 runway configuration.
09:49:13 However, others can.
09:49:15 Several years ago, an experienced seasoned pilot
09:49:18 encountered mechanical difficulties with their engine
09:49:21 on takeoff and wisely chose to avoid takeoff.
09:49:24 Because of federal mandated safety zone was not in
09:49:28 place this plane went into Seddon Channel.
09:49:32 Had the runway been configured with the HCAA proposed
09:49:36 plan, this accident could have been presented.
09:49:40 More importantly, though, by changing or repainting
09:49:42 the structure and reducing the runway by 175 feet you
09:49:47 are putting more aircraft at risk for these types of
09:49:50 runway accidents.
09:49:51 I strongly urge you not to support decreasing my
09:49:56 safety margin for flights at Peter O. Knight.
09:49:59 My husband and I saved for 14 years to be able to
09:50:02 afford a home on Davis Island so we can enjoy the
09:50:04 total environment of the village, the parks, the water
09:50:06 and especially the airport.
09:50:08 We have vested interest in seeing that all areas of
09:50:10 this fabulous community thrive and grow not only for
09:50:14 our own personal enjoyment but for the benefit of all
09:50:16 Davis Island residents as well as other citizens of
09:50:19 the Tampa Bay area.
09:50:20 I strongly urge the City Council to support and
09:50:24 endorse all aspects of the Hillsborough County
09:50:27 Aviation Authority plan to comply with all federally
09:50:31 mandated safety improvements without diminishing the
09:50:33 present safety or utility of the airport.
09:50:35 Thank you.
09:50:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:50:39 >>> Harold B. Gilbert, 114 east Davis.
09:50:45 On Davis Island.
09:50:45 And this letter supports the Hillsborough County
09:50:47 Aviation Authority attempt to comply with all safety
09:50:49 regulations and to urge the Hillsborough County
09:50:51 Aviation Authority to fully fund and implement all
09:50:54 planned future growth and expansion services of Peter
09:50:56 O. Knight airport.
09:50:58 The as a Davis Island resident, as an airline pilot
09:51:01 for federal express, enthusiastic general aviation
09:51:04 pilot and aircraft owner and hangar user at Peter O.
09:51:10 Knight, to make the commitment to not only Davis
09:51:13 Island res dents but the entire general public of
09:51:17 central Florida to make Peter O. Knight a safe, rich,
09:51:19 thriving part of our community.
09:51:20 This begins by making the investments necessary to be
09:51:22 comply with the federal aviation regulations to extend
09:51:25 the length of the runway to ensure that the runway
09:51:28 safety zone is mandated as by law.
09:51:30 This extension has many benefits.
09:51:33 By shifting the runway 175 feet further south, it will
09:51:37 greatly increase the safety margin of landing on
09:51:39 runway and the south runway of aircraft by not having
09:51:41 to fly so low over Seddon Channel.
09:51:45 Safety zone make landing on safer at night or in
09:51:49 increment weather which a lot of people don't take
09:51:51 into consideration because we have such great weather
09:51:53 here in Tampa but during times of poor weather and
09:51:56 landing to the south over that channel, having
09:51:59 displaced threshold further south down the runway will
09:52:02 definitely increase safety.
09:52:03 This will also make run way 21 safe for aircraft
09:52:08 flying over boats and ships in the channel by
09:52:11 displacing the threshold further south the airplanes
09:52:13 have to fly higher over the channel in order to land
09:52:15 on the appropriate part of the runway.
09:52:17 And the safety factor of taking off on the north
09:52:20 runway is also enhanced by beginning to take off
09:52:24 further south, you will gain higher altitude going
09:52:26 over the storage tanks on the north end of the runway
09:52:29 on Hookers Point.
09:52:31 But my main concern this morning is just as important
09:52:34 as making the necessary changes to the runway without
09:52:36 sacrificing utility, or the investments to make the
09:52:40 airport a thriving commercial entity.
09:52:42 More hangars and more people spending more time and
09:52:45 more money on Davis Island, many commercial
09:52:47 enterprises, only improves the quality of life for
09:52:50 everyone on Davis Island.
09:52:51 The proposed greenway, the airport, the Davis Island
09:52:54 Yacht Club, the boat ramps, and the green spaces all
09:52:58 around the airport are designed to just do that by
09:53:01 bringing more people to Davis island to celebrate and
09:53:04 enjoy all aspects of our great way of life when Wie we
09:53:08 intend to share with everybody, a way of life that
09:53:10 includes the airport and all activities for many
09:53:13 All commercial businesses on Davis Island should be
09:53:15 supporting development of the airport since according
09:53:17 to the aircraft owners and pilots association study,
09:53:21 for every dollar spent by aviation, aviation related
09:53:24 businesses, $1.52 is returned to the community in
09:53:27 economic impact.
09:53:28 I believe that HCAA should consider this time in our
09:53:31 rich aviation history as an important opportunity to
09:53:34 make sound adjustments, to make Peter O. Knight the
09:53:37 airport the crown jewel that serves not only Davis
09:53:39 Island but the City of Tampa as well.
09:53:41 I strongly urge the HCA to have the courage to make
09:53:45 the right decision to our airport to benefit so many
09:53:48 in our community.
09:53:49 Thank you very much.
09:53:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:53:53 >>> My name is Calvin Reed.
09:53:56 Up until about 30 days ago I was a 30-year resident of
09:53:59 Davis Island at 175 Baltic circle.
09:54:04 I just moved to Bayshore Boulevard for personal
09:54:07 I'm also a 30 year user of the airport, have a single
09:54:10 engine airplane there.
09:54:12 I feel that Peter O. Knight airport is a very valuable
09:54:15 asset to our community.
09:54:17 I own a business in Tampa.
09:54:18 I know it's been -- many of the small business and
09:54:23 private business enterprises.
09:54:26 I would not support a proposition by the authority
09:54:30 that would bring larger and noisier aircraft to that
09:54:37 I do not see the proposition that's in front of the
09:54:39 council, but being that, they are attempting to
09:54:44 enhance the safety of the airport, and a sure that the
09:54:48 users of today, the people that are using it today,
09:54:50 have a safe airport and one that can comfortably take
09:54:54 the small expansion that they are talking about.
09:54:58 I'm also a member of the Davis islands civic
09:55:01 association, until the last two days I knew nothing
09:55:05 about their position on this.
09:55:07 It has not been communicated properly.
09:55:11 I disagree with their position.
09:55:13 And I do not believe that they have the full support
09:55:15 of the membership or the residents of the island,
09:55:18 people that I've talked to in my neighborhood were
09:55:20 totally unaware of this.
09:55:23 I would like to support this expansion, and I wouldn't
09:55:27 call it that, it's an enhancement of the airport.
09:55:30 I'm not going to repeat all of the facts that were
09:55:32 just said by the two people that spoke before me.
09:55:35 But I think it's important that the council listen to
09:55:38 the presentation that they are going to hear, because
09:55:41 some of the facts that are being bandied around Davis
09:55:44 Island now are not facts, they are not correct, and I
09:55:50 think that the Aviation Authority will present a
09:55:52 picture that is totally different from what the civic
09:55:55 association is suggesting.
09:55:58 Thank you.
09:55:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
09:56:04 >>> My name is David Garner, been in Tampa for 22
09:56:09 years, I have been on Davis Island as a resident for
09:56:11 the last 17 years.
09:56:14 I have been operating out of Peter O. Knight airport
09:56:17 in different capacities for about the last 22 years.
09:56:21 I have elected not to be part of the Davis Island
09:56:23 civic association for reasons that my wife and I agree
09:56:27 on, and I'm here just to extend my support in the
09:56:33 reconfiguration of the main runway that occupies the
09:56:36 airport, and probably has much of the activity on
09:56:42 because of its strength.
09:56:44 I'm one of the operators of the aircraft that leaves
09:56:51 that runway in its entirety.
09:56:53 Operate a twin engine turboprop on the airport.
09:56:58 And the 3400 feet that is available for that runway
09:57:01 right now is paramount for the safety, the operation
09:57:04 of this aircraft.
09:57:06 This airplane and types of airplanes similar to it are
09:57:09 really not a noise problem.
09:57:11 They fall well within side the stage 2, stage 3 levels
09:57:15 for noise problems for aircraft in the aviation
09:57:22 By relocating the runway markings further south, it
09:57:26 will enhance the approach that the FAA has recently
09:57:33 installed landing on runway 21.
09:57:36 This is the new approach.
09:57:37 It's been approved and designated toward the airport
09:57:41 in the last six, eight months.
09:57:43 And coming in that approach and inclement weather with
09:57:47 the shipyards that are in place at that point creates
09:57:51 quite a hazard to turbo crop aircraft when it does
09:57:55 arrive at the threshold.
09:57:57 By repositioning the threshold, the 200 feet further
09:58:01 down gives me additional safety requirements that are
09:58:06 in place.
09:58:07 If I lose the extra 200 feet then it's going to
09:58:12 compromise the operation of the airplane totally.
09:58:14 I am an FAA safety counsel, have been working with FAA
09:58:23 safety for a number of years, and in recognizing the
09:58:26 community, having aviation safety in the forefront of
09:58:30 our operation, as a resident of Davis Island, I see no
09:58:36 issues with the replacement of this runway as a
09:58:41 community, and in the spirit of community, I know they
09:58:45 want to support all the information that we brought
09:58:48 out here today and would appreciate your support in
09:58:50 this matter.
09:58:54 It's 6 Cayuga Avenue, right behind the fire house.
09:59:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have a question.
09:59:09 Most of the folks who are speaking are leaving and I
09:59:11 want to ask this question before you left.
09:59:16 I wanted to ask you, we get so much differing
09:59:19 information, and this is extremely technical.
09:59:21 None of us are in a position to, you know, run out and
09:59:24 get our engineering degree or pilot's license and sort
09:59:29 all of this out on a technical basis.
09:59:31 I guess what I have been curious about in trying to
09:59:34 figure out is the airport authority has briefed us,
09:59:38 out there individually and, you know, that this is
09:59:40 mandated, you know, by the feds or the D.O.T. or what
09:59:45 have you, but then some of the citizens differ with
09:59:49 that after they dig into the regs and that sort of
09:59:53 thing, and I'm really confused on that issue.
09:59:57 You're an FAA safety officer.
10:00:00 Can you look at it objectively and just help us out a
10:00:03 little bit?
10:00:04 >>> Very much so.
10:00:08 >> And mainly my question, it hasn't been done.
10:00:11 Airport has been there for so long.
10:00:13 Your type of planes are not necessarily new.
10:00:15 >>> That's correct.
10:00:16 >> Probably they have been around 20-some years, I'm
10:00:21 So why hasn't it been done earlier?
10:00:23 Why wasn't it mandated earlier?
10:00:25 You know, what gives?
10:00:26 >>> From the laymen's side of the itself, there is a
10:00:31 requirement that depending on the type of operation of
10:00:34 airplanes, county go up as much as 1500 feet for the
10:00:40 overrun depending on how activity, high-speed jet
10:00:45 We don't operate those types airplanes out of Peter O.
10:00:48 Knight airport.
10:00:50 The overrun requirement there, if my understanding is
10:00:54 correct, consist of 240 feet that has to be in place
10:00:58 on each end of the runway.
10:01:00 In fact, if we had a situation as we did a couple of
10:01:02 years ago down there, and we had an airport actually
10:01:09 run off into Seddon Channel, that mandate by the State
10:01:11 of Florida and I believe the federal government as
10:01:13 well has been wavered for many years, because of the
10:01:17 placement of this airport initiated prior to that
10:01:22 So the waiver has now come up for renewal in the State
10:01:26 of Florida, is not -- they are requesting that waiver
10:01:31 not be extended.
10:01:32 So that's where all of this starts with.
10:01:35 Now, if you take an airport such as Vandenberg airport
10:01:41 itself for jet aircraft, then their overrun
10:01:44 requirement is much larger than the one required there
10:01:46 at Peter O. Knight.
10:01:50 It's somewhere in excess of 600 feet.
10:01:52 Now, when you operating jet aircraft, we are basically
10:01:56 talking about corporate jet aircraft.
10:01:58 Those mandates, where those overruns take your
10:02:02 requirements expand.
10:02:03 And that's why there is not going to be a big issue
10:02:05 with that type of aircraft with Peter O. Knight
10:02:08 because they just don't meet the safety requirements.
10:02:11 Now by relocating that runway and moving it south,
10:02:14 that mere 175 feet will enable the airport to operate
10:02:19 outside of that waiver and meet the requirements of
10:02:23 the state and federal overrun areas.
10:02:28 Does that answer your question?
10:02:30 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess the bottom line is, you
10:02:33 will feel much safer, you will be much safer doing
10:02:36 >>> We will have to be, sir.
10:02:40 I mean the airport is minimal at this point.
10:02:45 (phone ringing)
10:02:46 I apologize for that.
10:02:47 The airport is minimal at best to begin with.
10:02:51 I'm now operating my aircraft at less than what the
10:02:56 manufacturer requires to operate just to meet the
10:02:58 safety requirements of the airport.
10:03:01 And we're not talking about much.
10:03:02 We are talking maybe 6 or 800 pounds less out of an
10:03:06 airplane that weighs 10,000 pounds.
10:03:09 Just to meet the accelerate and stop distance for that
10:03:15 airplane. If you take the 200 feet away from me, then
10:03:19 I'll probably have to unload the airplane up to around
10:03:23 So you can see the penalty that operators such as
10:03:25 myself would have to pay.
10:03:27 And really what we are log at is just to stay within
10:03:31 that safety margin.
10:03:32 And we'll need that additional runway or that
10:03:36 replacement of the runway to allow safe operations for
10:03:39 this type of airplane.
10:03:43 Thank you very much.
10:03:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Remind everybody to turn off their
10:03:50 cell phones.
10:03:50 >>> I'm Deric Dymersin, live at 4772 -- Tampa.
10:03:56 I think it should also be noted that I also operate a
10:03:57 business at Peter O. Knight airport.
10:04:01 I'm there a lot of days a week over the last three and
10:04:04 a half years.
10:04:05 I would like to read a couple of short letters that I
10:04:07 have had given to me, and I would like to point out
10:04:09 that the letters that I have, only three of them, we
10:04:12 didn't solicit for.
10:04:13 These were actually in response to some of the protest
10:04:15 signs that were down in the village on Davis Island and
10:04:21 said what's going on at the airport? And they wanted
10:04:24 to help and they couldn't be here so they decided to
10:04:27 write a letter so I would be glad to hand them over to
10:04:30 you as well.
10:04:31 First from Mr. Darian Johnson at 502 Lucerne Avenue.
10:04:35 As a resident of Davis Island and pilot whose plane is
10:04:39 based at Peter O. Knight airport I would like to thank
10:04:41 you for the support for the safety enhancements. I
10:04:43 understand that there are some residents of the island
10:04:43 who oppose the extension fearing that it will allow
10:04:45 much larger airplanes to fly into the airport, that it
10:04:48 would create a more dangerous environment or create
10:04:50 more noise for the residents of the island.
10:04:52 Many of those that are opposed that I have spoken to
10:04:54 personally are not pilots and thus have a hard time
10:04:56 understanding the reality of the situation.
10:04:57 As a pilot I can represent the true reality with the
10:05:01 addition of 175 feet on the end of the runway only
10:05:05 makes the airport safer for all concerned.
10:05:06 Additionally, the incremental difference in the types
10:05:08 of planes that we will be able to use the airport is
10:05:10 minuscule and will create no more noise than planes
10:05:14 already routinely using the airport.
10:05:15 Finally, the incremental noise created by a runway that
10:05:15 is 175 feet closer to any residence is indiscernible.
10:05:16 When I purchased my home on the island I was completely
10:05:21 aware the airport and all that goes with it existed.
10:05:23 This holds true for all who are currently opposed.
10:05:26 Although I was not a pilot at the time, I accepted that
10:05:29 the airport existed and believed that it was an
10:05:31 attribute to living on the island.
10:05:33 It has a distinguished heritage and should be something
10:05:36 that we as residents of the island are proud of and we
10:05:39 should support the current efforts to make it safer for
10:05:40 all concerned.
10:05:42 Second one is from husband and wife team, William
10:05:45 Thomas and Holly Thomas, 571 Lucerne -- Luzon Avenue,
10:05:50 I'm sorry, on Davis Island.
10:05:52 We cannot attend the City Council meeting on Thursday,
10:05:54 January 17.
10:05:55 Please allow this letter to convey our viewpoint about
10:05:58 the changes proposed by the aviation authority at Peter
10:05:58 O. Knight Airport.
10:05:59 We are Tampa natives, registered voters and Davis
10:06:01 Island residents for over ten years.
10:06:03 Our house sits a few hundred yards from the airport
10:06:06 The airport is one of the features that originally drew
10:06:08 us to Davis Islands, as we think its presence enhances
10:06:09 the diversity and vitality of the community.
10:06:12 We attended one of the authority's information sessions
10:06:14 about the 175-foot runway lengthening and construction
10:06:18 of the new hangars and cannot understand what the
10:06:18 negative impact would be to any part of Davis Island.
10:06:21 The runway lengthening will enhance the safety of the
10:06:24 airport and is hardly a significant change.
10:06:26 If additional hangars attract business people and
10:06:26 pilots to spend more money on America's next great
10:06:26 city, that's all capitalized.
10:06:31 We are fully in support of it.
10:06:33 Thinking back over our experience living here for the
10:06:35 past 11 and a half years, we have been more disturbed
10:06:39 by our neighbors blowers, yard crews, morning
10:06:42 activities from the port recycling facility, smell from
10:06:42 the port's water treatment plant, honking of the cruise
10:06:44 ships horns, military 707s barreling by overhead,
10:06:44 people walking their dogs off leashes and most of all
10:06:48 the noise, inconvenience and litter distributed by the
10:06:51 annual Gasparilla invasion than disturbed by any
10:06:55 activities of our little airport.
10:06:56 Further, we believe an increase in the activities of
10:06:58 Peter O. Knight will pale in comparison to these little
10:07:01 inconveniences of living in the middle of a vibrant
10:07:04 We would like to convey that we are disappointed and in
10:07:05 opposition to the Davis Island civic association stand
10:07:08 on the airport changes and thus have not reviewed our
10:07:10 membership. If our neighbors bought their houses next
10:07:12 to the airport and did not expect noise from the
10:07:16 airport we think that is their problem and not the
10:07:18 Authority's or City Council.
10:07:20 Final one is from Daniel Greenwell who does not live on
10:07:22 the island but near the island.
10:07:22 (Bell sounds).
10:07:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You will have to submit that into
10:07:26 the record.
10:07:26 >>GWEN MILLER: Put it in the record.
10:07:29 >>> Oh, I can't read that one.
10:07:31 Got you.
10:07:31 Any other questions I will be glad to answer.
10:07:33 Otherwise I will just submit copies to you.
10:07:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:07:36 Next speaker.
10:07:38 >>> My name is Steve Dendrino, long-time resident of
10:07:45 Tampa and businessman.
10:07:47 I would like to read a letter that I wrote in support
10:07:49 to the authority and I have copies for all of you.
10:07:54 I have been a tenant of Peter O. Knight since 1973, an
10:08:00 avid recreational pilot and more than five of my
10:08:01 closest friends live very close to the airport.
10:08:03 I'm speaking for numerous individuals that are
10:08:06 sympathetic to the airport extension.
10:08:08 I thought I would offer you a little insight and
10:08:10 thoughts from a long-time resident and tenant.
10:08:14 Runway 3, it has been referenced that it is only
10:08:18 repositioned to accommodate King Air aircraft. That is
10:08:22 Yes, it is important for these aircraft to be able to
10:08:24 utilize the runway, but if that runway was not allowed
10:08:27 to be repositioned as proposed, it would be a disaster
10:08:30 for aviation.
10:08:30 Let me give you a for instance.
10:08:31 I fly mostly single engine and small twin aircraft. If
10:08:35 that runway was shortened by 175 feet I would have to
10:08:38 relocate as well as a large number of my fellow pilots,
10:08:41 and I would like to explain.
10:08:42 When departing on runway 3 the shipping channels
10:08:45 immediately past the end of the runway which makes it
10:08:50 impossible to maintain the safety buffer mandated by
10:08:51 Department of Transportation.
10:08:52 By moving the runway 175 feet south it not only
10:08:55 increases the safety margin, it also adds altitude, 175
10:08:59 feet proposed from 150 to 300 feet of additional
10:09:05 altitude, and if 175 feet were to be taken away, the
10:09:07 safety cushion would go away.
10:09:09 The impact of the runway relocation even though it is
10:09:11 monitored between the aircraft equally as mandatory for
10:09:15 smaller, slower, less powered aircraft in order to
10:09:19 maintain the safety buffer.
10:09:20 As for the noise issue, it may be true that a slight
10:09:22 noise increase may be felt at the beginning of runway
10:09:25 3, but it will also be that much quieter to the folks
10:09:28 at the opposite end which is much more populated, so in
10:09:31 a sense only one person may be affected but several
10:09:34 will experience less noise.
10:09:35 The slight noise issues is a very small price to pay
10:09:39 for additional safety.
10:09:39 After all, the airport has been there long before any
10:09:41 of the residents purchased their home there. There are
10:09:48 some pros and cons.
10:09:49 In any event, I was curious as to the noise.
10:09:51 I parked in front of the last house on Davis and
10:09:55 listened for departing aircraft.
10:09:57 I was actually amazed.
10:09:58 Three different aircraft departed. Two small single
10:10:00 engine and a twin.
10:10:01 The noise was barely noticeable. When I put my windows
10:10:04 up I could not hear the aircraft.
10:10:06 Please, let's not let safety take a second seat to
10:10:10 anything else.
10:10:10 Finally the hangars.
10:10:12 Airport expansion has been designed for quite some
10:10:16 The aviation authority has made many concessions
10:10:19 involving the location of the hangars and agreed to not
10:10:20 build, develop or disturb anything along Davis.
10:10:23 Instead the expansion will be at a point where it not
10:10:28 only has no impact but actually mask the industrial
10:10:30 look across the channel.
10:10:31 I have seen the points the civic association has raised
10:10:35 and I don't understand where their information is
10:10:38 It's inaccurate.
10:10:39 I guess that's the way to raise opposition is to
10:10:41 project by distorting the facts and misleading their
10:10:44 The Aviation Authority has done many things, has
10:10:47 donated areas and made many concessions to Davis Island
10:10:50 in a gesture of good will.
10:10:51 They are good neighbors, and the suggestion of anything
10:10:53 other than integrity or good communication are frankly
10:10:59 Please consider all the facts.
10:11:00 I represent myself, Mr. Roshaggi, 104 Martinique, Dr.
10:11:05 David Halpern at 91 Martinique and several people that
10:11:10 couldn't contact to get me their information to mention
10:11:15 their name.
10:11:16 (Bell sounds).
10:11:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:11:19 >>> Good morning.
10:11:21 My name is Warren Cohen, I live at 109 Martinique
10:11:24 Avenue adjacent to the airport.
10:11:30 I'd like to start by saying thank you for allowing me
10:11:32 to speak and inviting to present.
10:11:36 There's a lot of confusing things that are being said
10:11:38 and I think it's important that he would focus on the
10:11:41 facts, and the facts are that there was a presentation
10:11:44 given by the HCAA saying that this expansion is
10:11:48 required for safety.
10:11:49 It is not required for safety.
10:11:50 That's the fact.
10:11:52 Safety relates to the north end of the runway, not the
10:11:55 south end of the runway.
10:11:56 North end of the runway, the requirement for the safety
10:12:00 regulation requires moving the threshold 175 feet
10:12:04 The items that the people have spoken to regarding
10:12:08 their approaches and things of that nature would not be
10:12:11 affected if this 175 feet are not added.
10:12:13 The approach will change when they add the displaced
10:12:17 Things are being confusing and I think it's important
10:12:19 that we focus on the facts.
10:12:21 The fact is the extension is not required for safety.
10:12:24 Displacing the threshold is what fulfills the
10:12:28 Extending the runway has been presented as if they
10:12:32 don't do it, it's going to have a major impact to the
10:12:35 airport's utility.
10:12:36 It's just not supported by the facts.
10:12:37 There are 128 aircraft based at the airport.
10:12:40 Three of those aircraft would be affected.
10:12:42 How would they be affected?
10:12:44 As someone said previously, their weight load would be
10:12:47 It wouldn't be minimized to the point that they
10:12:50 couldn't use the airport.
10:12:50 It would be minimized where they would have to carry
10:12:53 less fuel, have less of a distance they can fly or less
10:12:56 That would only effect flights departing from the
10:12:59 When they departed from the north there would be no
10:13:01 loss of utility from the airport for them at all.
10:13:03 In the event it would mean that they couldn't use the
10:13:05 airport for a flight, they have a very convenient
10:13:07 location that they can go to eleven miles from
10:13:11 Vandenberg, a 5,000-foot runway.
10:13:14 It's not a major inconvenience there.
10:13:15 It is a major inconvenience to the people that enjoy
10:13:18 the park. This is not made up.
10:13:20 Everything is true and factual as I believe it to the
10:13:22 best of my knowledge.
10:13:23 And the reality is that the sound levels according to
10:13:26 the tests done by the HCAA are going to show the
10:13:29 increase in sound would be over four times as loud to
10:13:32 the community and to the parks there.
10:13:34 People are not going to sit at picnic benches and have
10:13:36 discussions over loud sounds which hopefully you will
10:13:38 be able to hear a demonstration of how loud that will
10:13:41 It's not pleasant and it's going to affect the utility
10:13:43 of the parks and the people who live there.
10:13:45 I have no problem with the airport as it is.
10:13:47 I like the airport.
10:13:49 I like the planes.
10:13:50 I knew I moved next to an airport.
10:13:51 That's not the problem.
10:13:52 Problem is that things are changing.
10:13:54 And when the land was sold to the airport, there were
10:13:56 certain promises made that the people would still have
10:13:58 the same utility as the parks that they did before
10:14:01 And that's changing as well.
10:14:04 I would like to submit to receive and file letters that
10:14:08 I prepared for you that outline these.
10:14:11 These are the facts and this will be a major detriment
10:14:14 to the people who live there and the people that enjoy
10:14:17 the parks, and it's not required for safety.
10:14:19 The impact to the airport, if they don't do it, is very
10:14:22 minimal and the impact to the community if they do do
10:14:25 it is drastic. This is not the place for a giant
10:14:29 It's a place for a nice small airport as it currently
10:14:32 That's how I feel.
10:14:33 And almost 200 people have signed the petition voicing
10:14:37 a similar opinion.
10:14:39 The Davis Island civic association has also adopted
10:14:41 this position and they have a resolution which will be
10:14:43 received and filed as well today.
10:14:45 Thank you very much.
10:14:45 I'll be happy to answer any questions if you have any.
10:14:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:14:50 Next speaker.
10:15:05 >>> My name is Dan Smith.
10:15:07 I'm a professional audio engineer.
10:15:12 For purposes of this demonstration I would like to ask
10:15:14 Mr. Cohen to assist me, if you would.
10:15:18 I have been asked to review a videotape that was done
10:15:23 of the HCAA sound test done on September 26th of
10:15:30 Made at the Peter O. Knight airport.
10:15:36 The sound tests showed that with an existing plane at
10:15:40 the end of the existing runway would have a decibel or
10:15:47 sound level reading of approximately 55 decibels.
10:15:51 And that was measured and verified by the person who
10:15:55 was making the test that day.
10:16:00 I would like to give the council a chance to hear what
10:16:06 that sound level actually sound like.
10:16:09 Mr. Cohen has a Pete meter that will show you the
10:16:15 actual reading of the sound level.
10:16:18 What they did to facilitate this test is they moved an
10:16:21 airplane 175 feet further out, off of the runway, and
10:16:27 conducted the test again, and showed that in fact it
10:16:31 had a finding of 77 decibels.
10:16:33 Mr. Cohen will show you what that will sound like.
10:16:43 (sound demonstration)
10:17:12 >> This is the proposed level.
10:17:15 (sound demonstration)
10:17:26 >>> Thank you.
10:17:31 I would hope that this would give you a little bit of a
10:17:33 sort of laymen's demonstration of what the actual
10:17:36 changes in sound levels and the impact this is going to
10:17:39 have the to have to the residents at the airport at
10:17:44 Davis Island, experiencing should this be approved.
10:17:47 The levels that you just heard were over four times
10:17:50 louder than the current levels measured at the end of
10:17:52 the current runway.
10:17:54 And, in fact, at the proposed new runway extension,
10:17:59 those noise levels would exceed current Hillsborough
10:18:02 County sound code violation ordinances.
10:18:05 So I just want to bring that to your attention.
10:18:08 I hope you will agree that this is not an insignificant
10:18:11 amount of noise, that it's actually a significant
10:18:14 amount of noise, it will greatly impact the residents
10:18:17 living jays adjacent to the airport and I hope you will
10:18:20 look into not supporting this.
10:18:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What are the different numbers of
10:18:26 the noise levels?
10:18:28 I'm not really familiar with.
10:18:29 What was allowed now?
10:18:31 >>> Currently it was measured at 55 decibels.
10:18:34 And the way that they did the test measurement with the
10:18:38 damping factor figured in the proposed extension would
10:18:41 give a level of about 77 decibels.
10:18:46 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: This measurement is out on the
10:18:50 >>> Yes.
10:18:50 >> What is the difference when you're in your home for
10:18:54 people who live near the airport?
10:18:57 Close enough where they are going to hear an airplane
10:19:00 taking off?
10:19:01 >>> Being I am side?
10:19:04 >> Inside your house.
10:19:05 >>> That would depend upon the construction of the home
10:19:07 whether it's a frame home or block home.
10:19:09 That may vary.
10:19:10 But for anyone living in the area of the airport, that
10:19:17 is the difference, or the various sound levels that
10:19:21 they will experience overall.
10:19:22 So if it's a difference of say 55 to 77 decibels,
10:19:27 approximately 22 decibels difference, the same average
10:19:31 difference will occur inside the em home as well as
10:19:34 >> So you didn't do any measurements within the house
10:19:37 of different structures, whether they were block, wood,
10:19:39 or whatever?
10:19:40 >>> Yeah, the test that was done by HCAA that day was
10:19:44 conducted outside.
10:19:45 >> Outside.
10:19:46 So you didn't do any inside yourself.
10:19:48 >>> We did not, no.
10:19:51 We observed the test that the HCAA did.
10:19:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:19:56 Next speaker.
10:20:00 >>> I would like to answer your question.
10:20:02 I live adjacent --
10:20:04 >> Put your name on the record.
10:20:05 >>> Lori Diaz, 624 Columbia drive.
10:20:10 I live exactly adjacent to the tape.
10:20:15 I live in a block home and I can tell you from
10:20:17 experience in the middle of the night I wake up several
10:20:19 times from the loudness of the planes.
10:20:24 But the reason why I'm here is because I am not against
10:20:27 the airport, and I understand it's a community airport
10:20:29 and I understand that I knew this when I moved into the
10:20:35 I just don't want it turning into a large commercial
10:20:38 They are looking to divert all of the smaller planes
10:20:41 into this airport which is going to increase the amount
10:20:43 of noise, and if they make that expansion to the
10:20:47 runway, what they are going to be cable of doing is
10:20:52 bringing in some smaller commercial flights.
10:20:54 And this is not meant to be a large airport.
10:20:57 It's meant to be a small community airport.
10:21:02 This is what should have been shown to the residents of
10:21:04 Davis Island.
10:21:05 I felt I was misinformed.
10:21:07 I thought there were only a couple of sheets of paper
10:21:10 they showed on the PowerPoint. This entire booklet is
10:21:13 what should have been shown to the people of Davis
10:21:15 islands so they could have foreseen what was going to
10:21:19 The other thing I wanted to bring up is that I have
10:21:20 seen five plane accidents within the last 15 years of
10:21:26 living on Davis Island.
10:21:29 There was nothing worse than the accident which
10:21:36 affected mine as well.
10:21:38 Now there was nothing like smelling the fuel coming
10:21:41 from that home after the accident.
10:21:44 The cost of the expansion is $1.8 million.
10:21:48 When they can put a line there, and that would be good
10:21:52 enough, that would be in compliance with what they are
10:21:56 I am totally opposed to the hangars along the waterway.
10:21:59 I feel like this is going to become like a warehouse
10:22:06 walk-in stead of riverwalk.
10:22:07 That's another thing I'm very much against.
10:22:10 It is extremely noisy.
10:22:13 They fly in low where I'm at right now.
10:22:16 And I live on the opposite side of Martinique.
10:22:19 I live where they come in for their landing.
10:22:22 And that's all I wanted to say.
10:22:24 And if somebody wants to take a noise test from within
10:22:26 my home, I'm open to it.
10:22:29 And those all I have to say.
10:22:31 Thank you very much for your time.
10:22:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, 30 minutes has elapsed.
10:22:41 >>GWEN MILLER: So they will have to speak at then of
10:22:44 the meeting?
10:22:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to waive the rules to give them
10:22:47 one minute each.
10:22:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
10:22:49 >>CHAIRMAN: One minute.
10:22:53 >>> My name is Kyle Bailey, I live at 1037 Royal Pass.
10:22:57 I appreciate your patience listening to all our
10:22:59 comments here.
10:23:00 I have never come to council before but this is
10:23:02 important to me.
10:23:02 I'm a user of the airport.
10:23:04 I operate a Caravan airplane there, and I have been
10:23:07 there for about eight years.
10:23:08 I just wanted to quickly touch on some of the facts.
10:23:11 And I think I have a pretty good handle on them.
10:23:14 Currently, the runway overruns do not meet the FAA
10:23:18 And in order to fix that, we have been operating on a
10:23:23 In order to fix that, we have to add some safety
10:23:28 If they don't do that, it's going to make the usable
10:23:34 runway shorter and that's going to make it unavailable
10:23:36 for some of the larger airplanes to use.
10:23:38 Not only about the airplane that is are based there but
10:23:40 we get a lot of visitors that come to town in some of
10:23:43 those airplanes.
10:23:45 The zone would be essentially the same.
10:23:48 It would increase safety.
10:23:49 I believe you hit the nail on the head with the sound
10:23:53 If you are standing next to the airplane of course it's
10:23:55 going to be four times louder rather than 200 feet away
10:23:59 but I think it's only going to affect a few people.
10:24:01 And we have to consider the City of Tampa this, this
10:24:04 airport belongs to the city and serve it is city as
10:24:06 well as just a few homes.
10:24:08 The hangars, I personally waited on a lit.
10:24:11 Waiting list for over a year to get my plane in a
10:24:14 hangar and I'm sure now the corrosive environment with
10:24:17 salt and sunshine.
10:24:18 It's a tough environment for airplanes.
10:24:21 So I support the hangars.
10:24:22 They are proposing to build them at the extreme edge
10:24:25 near the fuel pumps.
10:24:26 I encourage you to support --
10:24:29 (Bell sounds).
10:24:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Next speaker.
10:24:34 >>> My name is Neil Cosentino, 708 south Davis
10:24:38 I live directly across the street from the airport.
10:24:41 I have been a charter pilot for, air taxi pilot,
10:24:46 instructor pilot at the airport.
10:24:48 I also graduated from the safety program at USF --
10:24:55 well, in California, UCF. The Trojans.
10:24:59 The issue first of all for Mr. Dingfelder bringing the
10:25:06 FAA here and if there's any question about technical
10:25:09 points I would address it to them and cut through all
10:25:12 the smoke and fog and questions.
10:25:15 Second, also the Florida Department of Transportation
10:25:18 has two men in their office, and they can also address
10:25:25 Basically, first you have to unbind these two issues of
10:25:28 the development of the hangars, and the lengthening of
10:25:31 the runway.
10:25:32 So you separate those and deal with them separately.
10:25:35 Those the smarter thing to do.
10:25:41 Second, the same runway is going to be moved.
10:25:43 And in so moving it, it will be, yes, an incremental
10:25:46 increase in the noise.
10:25:48 But that's insignificant.
10:25:54 It's significant to a few people but in the big scheme
10:25:57 of things it's insignificant.
10:26:00 I was there during the test.
10:26:01 I don't agree with this sound demonstration here.
10:26:04 That doesn't make any sense.
10:26:05 Bring in the experts.
10:26:07 Thank you very much.
10:26:07 (Bell sounds).
10:26:08 >>GWEN MILLER: Before the next speaker, if you have
10:26:10 your cell phones on, please turn them off.
10:26:12 Please turn off all cell phones.
10:26:16 >>> I'm Bob -- an employee at aviation.
10:26:19 I have a letter from one of our users.
10:26:21 And this is Dan Greenwell.
10:26:24 I'm writing to you as a long time 15 year user of Peter
10:26:27 O. Knight airport.
10:26:29 I'm an ATP rated pilot with 32 years experience in
10:26:32 general, corporate and professional aviation.
10:26:34 I'm a flight instructor and examiner for in-flight
10:26:38 review incorporated.
10:26:39 I keep a modified and acrobatic at Peter O. Knight
10:26:44 Planned displacement of threshold for run way 21
10:26:47 coupled with extension of the same runway to the south
10:26:50 west will increase safety airport in a significant way.
10:26:53 First and foremost traffic landing to the southwest
10:26:55 will approach the airport with morality attitude of the
10:26:59 planes and shipyards.
10:27:01 This will provide better separation during the critical
10:27:04 final stage of the approach and provide more distance
10:27:06 between approaching aircraft and residents near the
10:27:08 north end of the field.
10:27:09 Additionally, aircraft departing to the northeast of
10:27:12 runway 3 will have more opportunity to gain altitude
10:27:17 over the airport and super structure of ship yards.
10:27:23 Lowering noise levels and increasing safety for all
10:27:26 The plans for runway 3/21 make good sense and result in
10:27:30 increased safety for aviators, decreasing noise for
10:27:34 residents and less proximity for flying residents.
10:27:37 Aircraft landing on 21 will be higher across the fence
10:27:40 due to displaced threshold.
10:27:41 To answer one possible criticism the addition of paved
10:27:46 surface does not change with to allow for more jet
10:27:49 operation, to Dan Greenwell.
10:27:52 (Bell sounds).
10:27:54 >>CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
10:27:55 Next speaker.
10:27:56 >>> Dan Smith again.
10:27:57 I just --
10:27:58 >>GWEN MILLER: You cannot speak again.
10:27:59 You already spoke.
10:28:00 You cannot speak again.
10:28:01 Sorry, sir.
10:28:02 Next speaker.
10:28:06 >>> I'm John Taylor, I'm on Davis Island since 1996.
10:28:14 I'm a small plane pilot.
10:28:17 And been doing that for a year.
10:28:20 I just ask the City Council to take into account that
10:28:24 this plan has been on the books since 2002.
10:28:28 The Aviation Authority has had this out for everybody.
10:28:33 And why all of a sudden now everything has to be
10:28:35 reviewed again based on something that's been on the
10:28:38 books for quite awhile based on a few people who are
10:28:42 upset and have spread a lot of rumors and information
10:28:47 that is not correct.
10:28:50 The Davis Island residents are not represented by this
10:28:54 association or the 200 people that have signed a
10:28:58 There are over 3,000 people on the island.
10:28:59 I think you need to look at the facts that the Aviation
10:29:05 Authority has presented.
10:29:06 And they are the people that are in the business of
10:29:09 providing that kind of technical expertise.
10:29:12 And residents of Davis Island are not in a position to
10:29:15 provide that kind of technical expertise.
10:29:19 So as a pilot, I would like to have it for the safety.
10:29:21 I would also like to think that this old airport is
10:29:27 more than just Davis Island residents, that it benefits
10:29:30 the City of Tampa, and the City Council here is being
10:29:35 given the courtesy of being able to have this review,
10:29:39 but the Aviation Authority has the final say as to what
10:29:43 it is.
10:29:43 Thank you.
10:29:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I need to call to our attention that we
10:29:46 do have a full agenda, and I will move that we allow
10:29:51 the next two speakers one minute.
10:29:54 After that we move to our regular agenda.
10:29:56 Otherwise everybody keeps getting up, and we will never
10:29:58 get through.
10:29:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
10:30:05 >>> Good morning.
10:30:06 Nelson Rose, the representative for the aircraft owners
10:30:09 and pilots association.
10:30:11 I'm her to speak in support of the proposal by the
10:30:14 Hillsborough County Aviation Authority.
10:30:18 I understand that there are some difficulties with some
10:30:24 people objecting to what they are planning to do.
10:30:26 However, we have over 414,000 members in the country
10:30:32 and 33,000 here in Florida, and we would like to
10:30:36 suggest that the plan that Hillsborough County has put
10:30:41 forward is an excellent plan.
10:30:42 We certainly object to diminishing the utility of the
10:30:46 airport by the shortening of runways.
10:30:48 I understand some people would not like to see
10:30:51 additional pavement put in.
10:30:53 But I can tell you that any pilot who flies an airplane
10:30:55 would like to have a sufficient amount of pavement to
10:30:58 operate his airplane, and without having to reduce
10:31:00 loads in order to accomplish that.
10:31:05 In addition, it hasn't been brought up but there is a
10:31:09 safety feature associated with that.
10:31:11 On takeoff, in a multi-engine airplane, if there is not
10:31:16 sufficient runway, and you lose an engine, you may very
10:31:19 well have to continue that takeoff if there's not
10:31:21 sufficient runway to -- in order to stop the airplane.
10:31:24 And of course with a single-engine airplane, stopping
10:31:27 on the runway, the more runway you have the better
10:31:31 opportunity you have to do that without running off the
10:31:33 end of the runway.
10:31:33 I would also encourage you to continue to develop your
10:31:37 airport by developing hangars.
10:31:41 Airplane owners certainly need hangars because of the
10:31:43 need, it reduces our insurance costs, reduces corrosion
10:31:46 to the airplane, when they have to store them out.
10:31:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, sir.
10:31:51 >>> And the time is up, I guess.
10:31:53 Thank you for hearing me.
10:31:55 >>> My name is Meg Fernandez, I live at 107 Martinique.
10:31:59 Yes, I do live near the airport and I knew I was moving
10:32:03 near an airport.
10:32:04 People used to ask me, the planes have never bothered
10:32:08 You get used to it.
10:32:09 However, the prospective of having the runway moved 175
10:32:13 feet closer, and to say that won't create any
10:32:15 additional noise, come join me in my house now and tell
10:32:20 me I don't have any noise.
10:32:22 It defies common sense to say there won't be additional
10:32:25 Secondly, I think someone has to seriously question
10:32:28 whether it's a safety issue here.
10:32:29 Why is it all of a sudden coming up?
10:32:31 Without going on a tangent I can a sure you that there
10:32:33 are many other safety issues at the airport.
10:32:36 Other than just this runway.
10:32:38 The runway seems to be being developed to enhance the
10:32:43 And I think you all need to understand one of the
10:32:46 biggest new luxury items of the well to do American is
10:32:50 to have their own private plane, and to think we will
10:32:53 not have additional traffic at that airport, because of
10:32:56 the large numbers of people there now on a waiting list
10:33:00 to get their own personal plane, again that defies
10:33:03 common sense.
10:33:04 We will have much additional traffic.
10:33:05 I would also ask you to seriously consider the numbers
10:33:09 of people who could not be here today.
10:33:10 Maybe they don't have a strong vested interest in this
10:33:14 because they don't have a plane.
10:33:15 But I can a sure you there are large numbers of people
10:33:18 who are very concerned about the additional plane
10:33:21 traffic, the additional noise, and the reduced usage of
10:33:25 the area.
10:33:27 (Bell sounds).
10:33:27 Which is currently being developed to be a better
10:33:29 recreational area.
10:33:30 Thank you.
10:33:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:33:33 We will now go to Mr. Shelby.
10:33:35 It's now 10:00.
10:33:36 We have an appeal hearing we need to move off the
10:33:38 agenda in case anyone is here to speak.
10:33:42 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, council, with regard to item 86,
10:33:45 there's a letter from the petitioner requesting a
10:33:48 90-day continuance for the appeal hearing.
10:33:51 Item 87 is a cross-appeal.
10:33:54 And that, they will continue both.
10:34:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Should we deal with 86 first?
10:34:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, council, ultimately, it will be
10:34:08 my recommendation that the two items are inextricably
10:34:13 linked because it comes from the same ARC.
10:34:18 So if Mr. Grandoff would like to address item 87 or 86
10:34:23 as they relate to the request for continue continuance,
10:34:25 then maybe it can be resolved.
10:34:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I didn't realize they were linked.
10:34:29 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Suite 3700 Bank of America Plaza.
10:34:35 I represent Jeff Tedder on item 87.
10:34:40 On item 86 you received a written request this morning
10:34:43 for 09 day continuance.
10:34:45 It's a cross -- 90-day continuance.
10:34:49 They are appealing two different walls on the same
10:34:52 I think Ms. Lopez's appeal was filed first.
10:34:59 We are agreeable to a 90-day continuance.
10:35:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Would it be appropriate, though, to
10:35:06 send this back to the ARC?
10:35:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: On what basis?
10:35:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Ultimately, council, I believe with
10:35:15 the fact that one of the petitioners is not here,
10:35:18 ultimately that may be council's decision, and
10:35:20 ultimately there may be an articulated basis for it.
10:35:25 Ideally, council, it would be nice for council to be
10:35:31 able to resolve this but I believe this continuance
10:35:34 would be in both parties' interest.
10:35:36 >> We believe that we would be able to come to a
10:35:43 settlement on these two appeals.
10:35:44 >> So you might not come before 90 days.
10:35:49 >> I want you to know, I have one concern that we may
10:35:52 need to go back to the ARC, because it would be within
10:35:56 their jurisdiction to do that.
10:35:58 So we are going to continue for 90 days F.my research
10:36:01 proves to me and we agree with the other party we
10:36:04 should be at the ARC we'll probably either withdrawal
10:36:07 the appeals, or we may push it further after 90 days.
10:36:11 We want to settle the issue and not burden you with any
10:36:14 of these problems.
10:36:15 >> Move 09 days at 10:00.
10:36:18 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Before you do that, I ask that you
10:36:22 open the appeal hearing on number 87 so you can
10:36:26 continue it.
10:36:26 >> So moved.
10:36:28 >> Second.
10:36:28 (Motion carried).
10:36:29 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And is it council's intention to
10:36:31 continue both to April 17th, set a date and time
10:36:36 certain, 2008, at 10 a.m.?
10:36:39 >>> Yes.
10:36:40 (Motion carried).
10:36:40 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Thank you for your time.
10:36:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to item number 4 which is an
10:36:46 ordinance for first reading.
10:36:47 Mr. Caetano, would you read item 4, please.
10:36:52 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: An ordinance for first reading, an
10:36:55 ordinance considered for first reading consideration,
10:36:57 an ordinance authorizing the installation and
10:36:59 maintenance of encroachments, proposed canopy and
10:37:02 portion of an existing building by postscript
10:37:05 productions, Inc., over portions of the public
10:37:08 right-of-way known as east 2nd Avenue and angel
10:37:12 Olivia senior street, as more particularly described
10:37:16 here, subject to certain terms, covenants, conditions
10:37:19 and agreements as more particularly described,
10:37:23 providing an effective date.
10:37:24 >> Second.
10:37:25 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: ENC 07-14.
10:37:29 (Motion carried).
10:37:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Committee reports.
10:37:33 Public safety.
10:37:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would like to move items 5 through 8.
10:37:36 >> Second.
10:37:36 (Motion carried).
10:37:38 >>CHAIRMAN: Parks and recreation.
10:37:41 Ms. Linda Saul-Sena.
10:37:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'd like to move resolution 9
10:37:49 through 12, 14 through 17, 19 through 22.
10:37:55 >> Second.
10:37:56 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
10:38:00 >> Is there a staff person here?
10:38:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I have a question on number 19.
10:38:13 Is this the material they are going to buy?
10:38:15 Or are we talking about real estate?
10:38:16 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The installation of security
10:38:23 I believe it's the material.
10:38:26 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Purchasing said property.
10:38:30 You are talking about the material they are going to
10:38:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Is someone here on item 13?
10:38:34 >>> Karen Palus, parks and regular ration director.
10:38:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Saul-Sena indicated that there
10:38:46 was some urgency to get this done today instead of next
10:38:50 I was hoping to be able to just chat with you during
10:38:53 the week, this coming week and then do it next week.
10:38:56 >>> Yes, there is an urgency.
10:39:00 We have gone through the bid process, through our
10:39:02 construction department, and when the cost came in for
10:39:05 those bids, we had some shortfalls in the funding so we
10:39:09 had to secure that.
10:39:10 At this point in time, we got all the funding together
10:39:12 and however, if it's not awarded very quickly that we
10:39:16 will lose those bids and we'll have to go through the
10:39:20 rebidding process which may cost the project.
10:39:23 It's not a normal process.
10:39:24 It's been coming up about funding.
10:39:29 >> Is that why you are here, David?
10:39:32 Because I'm sort of confused.
10:39:36 Are we going to lose that money before next week?
10:39:40 >>CHAIRMAN: The bids will go up.
10:39:41 >> Between now and next week?
10:39:43 >> Yes.
10:39:43 >> So let me ask a question in regard to 13.
10:39:46 As I read the background for 13, this is an improvement
10:39:51 of river garden shoreline restoration.
10:39:53 And I'm sure it's a fantastic project.
10:39:57 Whatever it is.
10:40:00 But my question is the $491,000 from the tree trust
10:40:08 fund, or a large amount from the tree trust fund?
10:40:11 >>> There's $200,000 allocated from the tree trust
10:40:15 >> 200,000 from the tree trust fund and that's the part
10:40:18 that throws me.
10:40:19 And I have said this over and over, I think we need to
10:40:22 figure out what the tree trust fund is for, what the
10:40:24 community thinks the tree trust fund is for.
10:40:29 $200,000 is a lot of trees.
10:40:31 So tell me why you think it's justified to use the tree
10:40:34 trust fund for this project as related to the planting
10:40:38 of trees.
10:40:38 >>> Okay.
10:40:42 The tree trust fund is designed for maintenance and
10:40:44 planting of trees.
10:40:45 And this particular project is a little over a million
10:40:47 dollar project through phases one and two, over 3.5
10:40:51 acres of park land, with multiple agencies, a
10:40:57 significant project, been underway for awhile, and the
10:41:00 port authority and the neighborhood association -- the
10:41:03 tree trust fund, $200,000 for that, there is 47
10:41:07 significant trees along that property line being
10:41:09 stabilized by the project and an 44 will be placed in
10:41:13 that property.
10:41:15 So it's a significant project overall.
10:41:16 And in the works for many, many years.
10:41:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This came about so long ago that Ron
10:41:31 mason was on council.
10:41:32 This has been his neighborhood.
10:41:33 We had these major oak that is were falling in the
10:41:35 river because boats would -- cigar boats would erode
10:41:40 the shoreline and it was crumbling and it took forever
10:41:44 to develop a plan to get some money on what we have
10:41:46 done literally, in shoreline stabilization, not with a
10:41:50 hardened wall but with a variety of things, we worked
10:41:56 getting money from them, the tree trust fund, grant,
10:41:58 and this park is beautiful now.
10:42:01 Creative walking trails.
10:42:03 And as you know, I'm a major tree proponent, and I
10:42:07 think this is great that we are using this money to
10:42:09 plant trees, to keep the shoreline, which has been
10:42:12 crumbling Inc. and becoming de-treed replaced.
10:42:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I would guess the 44 trees probably
10:42:23 have a value of, you know, not a whole lot.
10:42:26 I mean, you know, maybe 44,000, or something like that.
10:42:32 >>> the majority of those dollars are for stabilization
10:42:36 of the shoreline and the 47 trees that are in jeopardy
10:42:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The existing trees.
10:42:46 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Being new on the council I'm not
10:42:48 familiar with this tree trust fund.
10:42:50 Where does this money original nature from?
10:42:53 >>> From developers that have to pay into the tree
10:42:56 trust and the residents for mitigation for trees that
10:42:59 are removed from their property and/or comply with code
10:43:05 >> Shouldn't this money be spent where these trees --
10:43:08 where this money came from, in other words, a certain
10:43:11 area, rather than have the city spend it wherever they
10:43:15 In other words, a designated area, you have got.
10:43:18 >> 10,000 from somewhere in district 7, that that money
10:43:22 be reinvested in that district?
10:43:24 Because it's like the sidewalk fund.
10:43:27 I hear all sorts of stories about the sidewalk fund and
10:43:30 to me it doesn't seem fair.
10:43:31 >>> Currently the tree trust is set up as an overall
10:43:35 arching trust fund, as you mentioned they are not
10:43:41 specific to an area.
10:43:42 What you utilize for currently for a project such as
10:43:45 this as well as the community tree program that goes
10:43:48 throughout the entire city.
10:43:49 So we try and plant our trees throughout the city where
10:43:53 it's requested, as well as where it's beneficial.
10:43:55 We have worked with the tree trust in East Tampa
10:43:58 community and work with grants and he would try to
10:44:01 match those city dollars in that trust fund with grant
10:44:03 opportunities to really make our resources move forward
10:44:06 and plant as many and sustain and maintain as many
10:44:10 trees throughout the entire City of Tampa.
10:44:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I make an assumption, are we still
10:44:16 planting about a thousand trees a year on our own?
10:44:20 >>> Yes, sir, we are.
10:44:20 >> So, in other words, the last ten years we planted
10:44:25 10,000 trees.
10:44:26 >>> Give or take a few, yes.
10:44:29 There are mortality rates out there.
10:44:31 >> I understand.
10:44:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I had a follow-up.
10:44:40 I said I wanted to hear what Mrs. Saul-Sena said.
10:44:45 I just wanted to finalize it.
10:44:47 Thank you.
10:44:50 Karen, I think it sounds like a great project, truly.
10:44:53 And Ms. Saul-Sena obviously and others have been
10:44:55 working on it a long time.
10:44:57 And I think we should find the money somewhere, the
10:45:00 $200,000 somewhere else or maybe even $150,000
10:45:03 somewhere else in regard to that shore stabilization.
10:45:07 But I think it's misleading to the development
10:45:11 community and I think it's misleading to homeowners who
10:45:15 pay into that tree fund, because in my opinion, and I
10:45:19 stated this on several occasions, you're losing trees
10:45:22 in the neighborhood, and we are fixing up our parks.
10:45:25 And I sympathize with you greatly because your budget
10:45:28 is under more attack than anybody else's budget in the
10:45:31 Parks and Recreation Department.
10:45:32 And I do sympathize with that.
10:45:34 But I also believe that there's capital money out there
10:45:37 that could be switched in lieu of using the tree fund
10:45:41 I don't think that's the intent of the tree fund money.
10:45:43 I think that people in the community need to wake up to
10:45:46 the fact and start protecting that tree fund money so
10:45:48 we get more trees in the neighborhood, you know, up and
10:45:53 down our streets, which is where the trees came from.
10:45:57 Not really a question, it's just a comment.
10:45:59 And just for that reason alone, I won't support 13.
10:46:05 I'll support -- I mean 23, because that's the
10:46:10 agreement, you know, with the other agencies to move
10:46:12 forward with this.
10:46:14 But in terms of transferring this money out of tree
10:46:16 fund I can't support 13 at this time.
10:46:18 I think we can find the money elsewhere.
10:46:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:46:21 Mr. Dingfelder, I respect what you are saying.
10:46:24 There's been a lot of criticism of the tree trust fund
10:46:27 that is sitting in the bank and not being spent.
10:46:29 And if you were to compare planting a tree versus
10:46:34 dollars in the bank at this point, the trees are
10:46:36 growing faster than the dollars.
10:46:38 So I would like to see us putting this money to work in
10:46:41 the form of trees getting planted and growing.
10:46:43 And I wonder, Ms. Palus, do you have any photographs of
10:46:47 the trees that are on the shoreline that are getting
10:46:49 >>> I have not brought those with me but I could share
10:46:52 those with council if you want.
10:46:53 >> Maybe could you pass them on to council members.
10:46:56 These are big old trees that were falling in the water
10:46:59 because we needed the stabilization.
10:47:00 And this means that they are going to be saved, and
10:47:03 they are really significant.
10:47:04 And that's also why it's kind of expensive, because
10:47:08 it's doing tree work, I discovered, is a very expensive
10:47:11 If you could share that with council that would be
10:47:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Would you move item 13?
10:47:16 >> I would like to move item 13.
10:47:18 >> Second.
10:47:18 (Motion carried).
10:47:24 >> Dingfelder and Caetano voting no.
10:47:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would like for someone from city
10:47:34 administration on this particular item.
10:47:37 This is, as you know, the contract for the Curtis
10:47:43 And I guess my question is in terms of the WMBE, the
10:47:53 WMBE component.
10:47:55 Where are we as it relates to the contract with the
10:48:00 Because it is my understanding, this particular
10:48:02 contract does not have -- there was no opposers left.
10:48:13 >>> As we mentioned before, forest is a partner in this
10:48:19 They are WMBE firm.
10:48:20 But I am going to let the folks tell you where they are
10:48:25 in regard to utilization.
10:48:30 >>> Fred Haines, senior vice-president.
10:48:36 Where we are at with construction right now is our
10:48:39 association partner for this project.
10:48:41 We are under contract with them for this project.
10:48:45 As he would talked about, the association that we put
10:48:48 together limits their risk below zero of any loss below
10:48:56 fee to give them a security level for their financial
10:48:59 statements as well. They have not had to provide any
10:49:02 bonding nor project to hold their bond and capabilities
10:49:05 so we are taking on that risk. That contract of course
10:49:07 is executed and we are in agreement with that.
10:49:09 >> And I understand, those one entity when you talk
10:49:12 about the partnership.
10:49:13 But what about the proposal in terms of meeting the
10:49:18 WMBE requirements of the contract?
10:49:24 I had a discussion shortly yesterday to you and you
10:49:26 stated to me yesterday what was the intent of going
10:49:28 Because there is no WMBE participation on this.
10:49:32 So could you state on the record, what is the intent of
10:49:38 construction in terms of WMBE requirement and
10:49:40 >>> Yes, sir.
10:49:41 Our intent moving forward is our bid packages as they
10:49:43 go out into the marketplace first will follow all the
10:49:46 city contractual guidelines that we are under contract
10:49:48 with as of today.
10:49:50 Our effort is to require 20% minority participation on
10:49:53 the best effort and make that a best value rating
10:49:56 criteria for all the subcontractors, and then when we
10:50:02 make our selection for best value to the city all those
10:50:04 criteria will be on there from price, quality of work,
10:50:07 financial capabilities, as well as the minority
10:50:10 participation they are bringing to the table.
10:50:11 And it will be placed on the table as the best value
10:50:14 moving forward.
10:50:15 So out of all the subcontracts we receive that will be
10:50:18 a selection criteria for determine the best value.
10:50:20 >> So then it's your intent to make sure that 20%
10:50:26 participation by WMBE.
10:50:27 >>> That's our goal, yes, sir.
10:50:29 >> Thank you.
10:50:29 Now let me just follow up.
10:50:31 You all have a very God record.
10:50:34 >>> Yes, sir.
10:50:35 >> I know from experience at the Aviation Authority,
10:50:37 and I know over $130 million project, okay?
10:50:44 So you were involved and have a good record with that.
10:50:47 I'm just a little concerned that right out of the bat,
10:50:49 off the ground floor there was no WMBE participation or
10:50:53 proposal from that.
10:50:58 That's why I want to be on the record as we move
10:50:59 forward what your goal is.
10:51:00 I guess my question is, as you move forward, of course
10:51:05 you have a God record, and you know that, and I like
10:51:09 But I want to know from the city, how is this
10:51:13 If there's a goal of 20%, who is looking at that?
10:51:17 Who is making sure this gets done?
10:51:19 >>> Yes, sir.
10:51:20 Well, first of all, let me just clarify that there is a
10:51:23 WMBE involvement in this piece, because this is part of
10:51:30 the management and oversight of this project.
10:51:32 So in the demolition piece, Horace is involved, and
10:51:39 that's one of the areas we were trying to be targeted.
10:51:42 So --
10:51:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: He is a partner.
10:51:45 He's part of the team.
10:51:47 But I'm talking now in terms of the subcontract.
10:51:50 You can't call minority part of the team and now all
10:51:55 subcontracts will meet that same -- it can't be.
10:51:58 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: You are correct when you are talking
10:52:01 about subs but we are talking about primes and we are
10:52:03 talking about involvement in the project.
10:52:06 And at the prime level there is WMBE involvement in
10:52:11 this project.
10:52:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
10:52:13 Is this contract here, almost a million dollar, that's
10:52:16 not a subcontract that's being let?
10:52:22 >>> Yes, sir, the subcontract --
10:52:25 >> That's my point.
10:52:25 I'm not talking about the prime.
10:52:27 I'm talking about any subcontract goes out, that should
10:52:29 be a minority WMBE participation.
10:52:32 And my point is, you just stated, Mr. Haines, that your
10:52:36 goal, and Hart, is at least 20% of WMBE participation
10:52:40 on all subcontract going out.
10:52:42 That's my point.
10:52:43 And my point to the administration is, who is
10:52:46 monitoring that?
10:52:49 How does that get monitored?
10:52:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Hart.
10:52:53 >>> Gregory Hart, manager, minority business
10:52:57 As has been stated -- (cell phone music).
10:53:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let's dance.
10:53:05 >>> SKANSKA has a 30% partner under construction for
10:53:13 construction and they are involved in the if oversight
10:53:16 management of the project.
10:53:17 As the packages for constructability are rolled back,
10:53:21 my office confers with contract administration at
10:53:26 Skanska and determines whether or not there is
10:53:28 opportunity for WMBE subcontractor.
10:53:31 I have spoken with chuck Jablin vice-president of
10:53:36 operations and in the first package which was a
10:53:38 demolition project, he has hopefully seen
10:53:44 subcontracting with a WMBE for trucking, for example.
10:53:48 As the gentleman stated, their goal overall in these
10:53:51 packages are brought forward is 20%.
10:53:54 However, we will be looking at each package in concert
10:53:58 with Skanska and contract administration to define
10:54:03 So we'll deal with that --
10:54:05 >> Thank you.
10:54:05 I just want it on the record.
10:54:07 Mr. Haines, as I said before you have a good reputation
10:54:10 in the community.
10:54:11 And I have seen that over the past.
10:54:15 I just want to make sure that when continue to help you
10:54:17 have a God reputation in the community.
10:54:19 And that staff is monitoring these contracts.
10:54:23 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Yes, sir.
10:54:24 We will monitor, keep track of and report availability
10:54:26 and utilization.
10:54:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All right.
10:54:30 I will move approval number 18.
10:54:32 >> Second.
10:54:33 >>GWEN MILLER: We need 23, too.
10:54:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 18 and 23.
10:54:37 >> Second.
10:54:39 (Motion carried).
10:54:39 >>CHAIRMAN: We go to public works.
10:54:41 Mr. Charlie Miranda.
10:54:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move items 24 through 32.
10:54:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Excuse me.
10:54:52 Mr. Daignault.
10:54:53 I had a question I wanted to ask him real quickly.
10:54:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Related to any of these items?
10:55:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Related to 18.
10:55:05 >>CHAIRMAN: Stay in.
10:55:06 Go ahead, Mr. Daignault.
10:55:15 In terms of sustainability in the demolition is there
10:55:17 any recycling going on, any thought given to that?
10:55:21 I would love to hear it.
10:55:24 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Yes.
10:55:25 I sent you an e-mail.
10:55:26 I don't know if you have had a chance to look at it.
10:55:28 Yes, they had a LEED certified professional on their
10:55:33 They will be separating the streams, and the concrete
10:55:40 and steel will be recycled.
10:55:40 Kimens does that typically and that will be done.
10:55:44 >> And they will be protecting the river during the
10:55:47 >>> That's a requirement, yes.
10:55:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move 24 and 32.
10:55:55 >> Second.
10:55:55 (Motion carried).
10:55:56 >> Want to hear from the administration on 33?
10:56:05 Somebody wanted to pull it.
10:56:11 >>CHAIRMAN: Anybody pull 33?
10:56:14 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move 33.
10:56:15 >> Second.
10:56:16 (Motion carried).
10:56:16 >>CHAIRMAN: It's okay.
10:56:21 Nobody pulled it.
10:56:23 Finance Committee, Mr. John Dingfelder.
10:56:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move items 34 through 39.
10:56:32 >> Second.
10:56:32 >>THE CLERK: On 38 and 9th 39 you will need to
10:56:38 waive the 30 day notice by super majority vote.
10:56:46 (Motion carried).
10:56:47 >> I move item 38.
10:56:48 Waive the rule.
10:56:49 >> Second.
10:56:51 (Motion carried).
10:56:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And move to approve item 38.
10:56:58 >> Second.
10:57:00 (Motion carried).
10:57:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move item 39, waive the 15 day rule.
10:57:05 >> Second.
10:57:06 (Motion carried).
10:57:07 >> Move item 39.
10:57:08 >> (Motion carried)
10:57:11 >>CHAIRMAN: Transportation.
10:57:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And thank you to the firefighters.
10:57:16 I see Mr. Chidi and Judy Brineman as well.
10:57:22 >>CHAIRMAN: Mr. Transportation.
10:57:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Brown as well.
10:57:29 Welcome back.
10:57:30 >>GWEN MILLER: Building and zoning, Mr. Caetano.
10:57:33 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Move items 40 to 45.
10:57:35 >> Second.
10:57:36 (Motion carried).
10:57:36 >> Transportation, Ms. Saul-Sena.
10:57:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move number 46 through 59.
10:57:47 >> Second.
10:57:48 (Motion carried).
10:57:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move the following items set for
10:57:58 public hearing, items 60, 61.
10:58:00 >> Second.
10:58:01 (Motion carried).
10:58:02 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Item 82 is set for a 10:00 hearing.
10:58:09 The petitioner's representative has a request.
10:58:11 I believe it cannot be heard.
10:58:13 >>STEVE MICHELINI: We had an error with the survey.
10:58:15 And we need to renotice this hearing.
10:58:17 We are requesting March 6th at 10 a.m.
10:58:20 And we paid the amendment fee and discussed the issue
10:58:24 with you the staff.
10:58:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved to March 6th at 10 a.m.
10:58:28 >> Second.
10:58:28 (Motion carried)
10:58:29 >> we go back now to item number 60.
10:58:42 We have a resolution.
10:58:43 Need to move the resolution.
10:58:46 >>THE CLERK: Do you want to do the item set for 11:00?
10:58:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: We have two more minutes on our clock.
10:58:51 >> 62.
10:58:54 >> Second.
10:58:54 (Motion carried)
10:58:55 >>THE CLERK: 63 I have not received the resolution yet.
10:59:09 >>CHAIRMAN: Need to hold it.
10:59:11 >> Or continue to the February 7th.
10:59:15 The event is not until may 3rd.
10:59:17 >> So moved.
10:59:18 >> Second.
10:59:18 (Motion carried).
10:59:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You can receive and file if you like.
10:59:24 >>CHAIRMAN: Number 65, receive and file that one.
10:59:26 >> Second.
10:59:26 (Motion carried).
10:59:27 >>CHAIRMAN: Same thing with 66 -- 67.
10:59:34 >> Wait.
10:59:34 Hold on.
10:59:45 >>CHAIRMAN: It's 11:00.
10:59:48 Who is going to speak first?
11:00:04 Mr. Miller?
11:00:05 >>> I appreciate the opportunity to be here today.
11:00:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: There's nowhere you would rather be,
11:00:16 Mr. Miller, I'm sure.
11:00:18 >>> Aviation is important to us in Hillsborough County.
11:00:20 We take it very seriously.
11:00:21 While we are waiting for the presentation to come up --
11:00:24 >>CHAIRMAN: It's on.
11:00:25 Put your name on the record for us.
11:00:26 >>> I'm sorry.
11:00:27 I'm Louis Miller, Executive Director of the
11:00:30 Hillsborough County Aviation Authority.
11:00:31 I live at 4504 west Azeele.
11:00:35 In Beach Park.
11:00:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Before you get started, what are you
11:00:55 log at, 10, 15 minutes?
11:00:57 >>> Somewhere around there.
11:00:58 15, 20 minutes maybe.
11:01:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Hold on one second.
11:01:33 We have to take roll.
11:01:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
11:01:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
11:01:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
11:01:40 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
11:01:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have a quorum.
11:01:43 Continue, Mr. Miller.
11:01:44 >>> If I could give you a little bit of history of
11:01:47 Peter O. Knight airport.
11:01:49 You may have seen in some of the documents that were
11:01:51 presented last time when we required the airport, the
11:01:54 City of Tampa.
11:01:54 Peter O. Knight was originally developed by the federal
11:01:58 works project administration back in 1935.
11:02:02 From 35 to 46 Peter O. Knight operated as a commercial
11:02:05 service airport serving Hillsborough County and the
11:02:08 entire Tampa Bay area.
11:02:10 In May of 1946 the operation of the two airlines then
11:02:15 serving the Tampa area which is eastern airlines and
11:02:17 national airlines, they moved from Peter O. Knight
11:02:20 airport to Tampa International Airport, making the end
11:02:23 of Peter O. Knight as the bay area's commercial service
11:02:26 From that point forward it's been a general aviation
11:02:29 facility back in 1946.
11:02:31 Since 1946, it has served as a general aviation.
11:02:35 The Aviation Authority board was created.
11:02:37 A lot of people don't realize.
11:02:38 Created actually in 1945.
11:02:42 And since that time our charge was to own, operate and
11:02:46 maintain all public service airports within
11:02:50 Hillsborough County.
11:02:51 As you know, that included Tampa international, Peter
11:02:54 O. Knight, obviously, later we acquired the Plant City
11:02:58 airport and also acquired in the early 1980s Vandenberg
11:03:03 airport so we now operate a system of airports within
11:03:06 Hillsborough County of four airports.
11:03:10 When we first started back in '99, just after I got
11:03:14 here in '96, the lease was going to expire on the
11:03:16 property that we leased from the City of Tampa.
11:03:21 If I could bring the presentation back up.
11:03:23 Thank you.
11:03:23 And you have this in the book that I am going to give
11:03:26 you. This shows the lease boundaries of the property
11:03:31 prior to the purchase agreement with the City of Tampa.
11:03:32 You can basically see, it's about everything that's up
11:03:35 there is what we have.
11:03:37 The only thing that we owned, the property on south
11:03:40 Davis Boulevard there, we owned about 20 acres of
11:03:43 The Aviation Authority already owned that before this
11:03:46 took place.
11:03:46 So that was what happened.
11:03:48 At that point in time, prior to us acquiring the
11:03:51 property, the master plan -- pictures aren't coming up.
11:03:58 There we go.
11:03:59 The master plan for the airport had what you see up
11:04:03 It had all the commercial service development coming
11:04:05 down, it had all of the hangar extensions in the
11:04:11 current area, and probably more importantly it also had
11:04:15 a runway extension.
11:04:17 And those what keeps coming up, of the runway 1735
11:04:21 which is the runway on the right there, to take it to
11:04:24 the current length of the current runway, which should
11:04:28 be 3405 feet.
11:04:30 At that point in time we decided we wanted to make the
11:04:33 acquisition of the airport.
11:04:34 As now you read the history going through all the
11:04:36 information that came to the public hearings.
11:04:38 We had a lot of the meetings and we went back and
11:04:42 I won't go over them again in total detail.
11:04:45 Probably the most important one, this drawing that I'm
11:04:49 showing you now is the is the property we actually
11:04:52 acquired from the City of Tampa.
11:04:53 And in acquiring that property, so now we owned it, fee
11:04:58 You notice we took out a bunch of areas.
11:05:00 We took out areas where the aviation development, we
11:05:07 took that 22 acres that's along Davis Boulevard and
11:05:13 committed to the City of Tampa that we would not
11:05:15 develop that property, would not develop, sell it or do
11:05:18 anything with it, without the approval of the City of
11:05:22 That's in the agreement.
11:05:26 That's because our plans called for, we would never use
11:05:29 that property.
11:05:29 So that's how the master plan looks.
11:05:31 That's how the ownership after we purchased the
11:05:34 property is shown there very clearly.
11:05:40 The master plan after the purchase, as you can see
11:05:43 here, now remember we had the hangars developed down
11:05:48 there by Savern, so we moved them over to the aviation
11:05:54 That's where we would develop the hangars.
11:05:56 You might notice, very carefully that runway that's on
11:05:59 the 235 is no longer shown to be expanded.
11:06:05 That runway in the old plan had that through the
11:06:09 current length of the runway which is up to about 3400
11:06:12 Today it's approximately 2700 feet.
11:06:15 So we took that out.
11:06:16 That's another concession that was made when we
11:06:18 purchased this property.
11:06:19 In addition to making the concession that we would not
11:06:22 develop the property on south Davis Boulevard.
11:06:26 You will also notice it's important to create the
11:06:29 270-foot safety zone.
11:06:32 When we originally did the master plan we were hoping
11:06:35 that we could acquire that by expanding into the Seddon
11:06:41 Channel to maintain maximum -- current runway without
11:06:46 Since that master plan was adopted we found out we
11:06:49 can't do that.
11:06:53 The port of Tampa, it would tend to block ships going
11:06:57 up and down the channel.
11:06:58 And I think I can understand that.
11:06:59 So with that being said -- oh, back to the master plan
11:07:03 for a minute.
11:07:04 It was brought up in some of these earlier meetings
11:07:06 that the master plan was adopted after we acquired the
11:07:09 property without public input.
11:07:12 That just isn't true.
11:07:13 We had all of these public meetings shown on here for
11:07:16 the master plan.
11:07:17 Newspapers, neighborhood associations, individual
11:07:19 residents, invite people to come.
11:07:24 Our first meeting was on November 19, 2002.
11:07:28 We had 16 people show up at the meeting.
11:07:29 Second public meeting on January 9th, 2003, 34
11:07:35 In the final pun public meeting the 3rd of March,
11:07:39 and we had, I think, 13.
11:07:42 It doesn't show there.
11:07:43 So we did have the public process to adopt the master
11:07:46 When the aviation authority adopted the master plan for
11:07:48 airports for Peter O. Knight airport, it had all that
11:07:54 development we talked about, it had the hangars over
11:07:56 there, had that aviation development.
11:07:58 So there wasn't anything new brought to the community,
11:08:01 when we talked to the community at the last meeting.
11:08:04 That being said, everyone raises the issue of noise.
11:08:09 The federal government measures noise based on average
11:08:15 day and night noise levels.
11:08:17 And that's how it is at international airport, Peter O.
11:08:21 Knight, every airport in the United States.
11:08:23 What they have come up with is a standard.
11:08:25 And this drawing shows what the noise impacts are of
11:08:30 where we were at today.
11:08:31 Of course, the blue line that's shown there, it's kind
11:08:34 of hard to see, is what it is today, and the red line
11:08:38 is what it will be after we complete the run way
11:08:42 reconfiguration project which I'll give you more detail
11:08:45 about later.
11:08:45 So we did go back.
11:08:47 And you will notice it doesn't change anything to the
11:08:50 Minimal changes to the south.
11:08:52 And it's according to federal standards.
11:08:55 So that's one of the things related to noise.
11:09:01 It's not huge.
11:09:01 Next slide, in the presentation that is were made to
11:09:03 the council, it came back, people asked the question,
11:09:09 how is Peter O. Knight funded?
11:09:10 Tax dollars, where does the money come from, where does
11:09:13 it go?
11:09:14 And it doesn't.
11:09:14 Obviously you see here from this slide.
11:09:17 Our total operating revenues around $250,000 in
11:09:22 Net revenues before depreciation.
11:09:25 Appreciation 629.
11:09:26 So it cost the Aviation Authority 56,000 in that one
11:09:31 To own, operate and maintain Peter O. Knight airport.
11:09:34 We do that because the system of airport that is we
11:09:37 operate, Peter O. Knight, Plant City and Vandenberg.
11:09:40 And I may show you some other things we have done that
11:09:43 will put to bed any conception that we are going to
11:09:46 develop larger airplanes at Peter O. Knight.
11:09:48 That is certainly not what we want to do.
11:09:54 How the airport was funded.
11:09:55 The next slide up.
11:09:57 And where the money came from.
11:10:00 Purchased the land.
11:10:00 The land we bought from the City of Tampa back in 1999,
11:10:04 4.7 million, permanent improvements, $13 million,
11:10:08 equipment, 133.
11:10:09 So we have total fixed assets and equipment at that
11:10:11 airport of about $18 million as you can see.
11:10:14 It was funded through Aviation Authority revenues.
11:10:17 I should also point out when it says state grants,
11:10:20 that's not taxpayer money.
11:10:21 Users of the airport aviation system pay 5.9 per gallon
11:10:26 aviation fuel tax that goes to the State of Florida and
11:10:28 from that the Florida send back money for the system.
11:10:33 Money is generated from users of the system.
11:10:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Before you progress on that, if I
11:10:37 could one second.
11:10:41 You and I and councilman Scott were at the MPO earlier
11:10:48 in the week.
11:10:48 And we were working on the five-year plan and I saw
11:10:51 that there was money in the MPO budget specifically
11:10:55 directed to the Aviation Authority, specifically
11:10:57 earmarked for Peter O. Knight.
11:11:00 Is that on this page?
11:11:03 And you have been on the MPO much longer than I have.
11:11:07 That's federal money, I think?
11:11:10 >>> It's local money.
11:11:11 Some of it ---
11:11:13 >> I'm sorry.
11:11:13 >>> It comes from the state.
11:11:16 It's that aviation fuel tax.
11:11:17 If it comes from the money that we contribute it's very
11:11:19 similar to this, internal authority generated funds,
11:11:24 bonded funds.
11:11:25 He would borrow money to do it.
11:11:26 So the MPO -- the next slide will give you an idea.
11:11:30 >> So you're saying the state grants that came through
11:11:32 the MPO is never taxpayer money, it's all -- it's not
11:11:41 federal money, it's all --
11:11:42 >>> some federal money.
11:11:43 But that federal money comes from aviation fuel taxes.
11:11:46 And the local money, when the people fly and buy a
11:11:50 gallon of gas, aviation fuel at any airport, they pay a
11:11:53 5.9 cents per gallon aviation fuel tax.
11:11:57 It goes into the state trust fund.
11:11:59 And that money is the money that comes back.
11:12:01 So it's paid for by the users of the airport.
11:12:03 Not the citizens of the community.
11:12:06 >> Thank you.
11:12:07 >> The next slide to briefly give you an idea, I'll put
11:12:10 this into perspective.
11:12:12 We have $79 million planned in renovations and changes
11:12:15 over the next ten years at general aviation airports.
11:12:20 We should also point out that at Tampa International
11:12:22 Airport, while this looks like a lot of money, we have
11:12:26 $1.6 billion in expansion at Tampa International
11:12:32 Airport so we don't have any plans to change the
11:12:34 effective utilization of Peter O. Knight.
11:12:37 And I am going to show you that.
11:12:39 Something that hasn't come up before is everyone says
11:12:41 we are trying to move aircraft from Tampa international
11:12:44 down to Davis Island.
11:12:46 Peter O. Knight.
11:12:46 It's not true.
11:12:48 Four years ago, we opened a second FPO at Tampa
11:12:52 International Airport fixed base operator which is
11:12:54 where you maintain airplanes.
11:12:56 We only had one of them until then.
11:12:58 We brought a second one in.
11:12:59 We have doubled the number of jet aircraft operating at
11:13:02 Tampa International Airport.
11:13:03 We doubled the capacity inform them to fuel and supply
11:13:08 of planes.
11:13:09 And our goal has been an we have no intention of
11:13:11 changing the utilization of the utility of Peter O.
11:13:15 Knight airport.
11:13:16 In addition to that you see Vandenberg.
11:13:18 The Vandenberg you see on the right, those a 5,000-foot
11:13:22 We spent $38 million in the late '-- the mid '90s to
11:13:32 build that runway to accommodate jets.
11:13:34 It has a 5,000-foot runway, 600-foot safety zone.
11:13:37 Those what's required when you have the longer runways
11:13:39 for jets versus the 240 feet we need at Peter O.
11:13:43 And in Plant City has a very similar runway as well.
11:13:45 So we invested a whole lot of money to get the larger
11:13:48 jet aircraft at Vandenberg and it's working.
11:13:54 The next slide shows what we really have to do.
11:14:00 When we had the master plan as shown here, we were
11:14:02 going -- we have to -- we can't relocate in the Seddon
11:14:06 It's impossible to relocate into Seddon Channel.
11:14:10 The Army corps of engineers and because of the port.
11:14:14 And I understand the boats, they have problems with
11:14:16 traffic going back and forth.
11:14:18 We are going to relocate the safety area, and we are
11:14:21 going to reconfigure the runway, and the runway will
11:14:24 still be 3005 feet when it's finished.
11:14:27 And I need to say this as many times as possible.
11:14:30 We are not extending the runway.
11:14:32 We are reconfiguring the runway to our current utility
11:14:38 of 3405 feet.
11:14:40 And it doesn't move to the south.
11:14:42 So you will see that up there as well.
11:14:45 The next item, since we were going to be coming up with
11:14:49 some programs and try to be a good neighbor, is
11:14:52 scheduled all of these public meetings with the Davis
11:14:55 Island civic association.
11:14:56 The first one is May 15th.
11:14:58 The second one is September 18th.
11:14:59 Third one October 15th.
11:15:03 The civic association or their subcommittee, November
11:15:06 6, 28th, and actually on their meeting on December
11:15:09 4 is when the civic association board, just the board,
11:15:12 took the position that they wanted to oppose the
11:15:16 development program at Peter O. Knight airport
11:15:18 including the runway and including the hangars.
11:15:21 With that being said, our safety area of compliance is
11:15:26 mandated by FDOT.
11:15:29 It's unequivocal, I will send the council letters if
11:15:33 you want to, but the FDOT told us we will give you an
11:15:37 exemption but if you don't fix this problem we are not
11:15:40 going to allow to you continue to operate and you will
11:15:43 have to shorten your runway.
11:15:45 We have a -- someone asked earlier, what is your
11:15:48 required safety area for an airport of this size?
11:15:51 And this configuration?
11:15:52 It's 240 feet.
11:15:54 And that's just exactly what we are trying to get.
11:15:56 So we are not going to extend the runway.
11:16:00 We are going to reconfigure the runway.
11:16:02 I think that needs to be pointed out as a major
11:16:05 And as mentioned earlier that's going to cost about
11:16:07 $1.8 million to do that.
11:16:09 The next one, they talked about airplanes -- it looks
11:16:14 complicated but not so bad.
11:16:16 You see arrivals on runway 3 which is the runway down
11:16:19 at the south end, arriving to see where they come in.
11:16:22 They will continue to arrive, same exact location.
11:16:27 On the arrivals they will have reduced from 3405 feet
11:16:31 to 3230.
11:16:32 But that's okay because arrivals is not where the
11:16:35 penalty comes to weight of the aircraft.
11:16:39 So that one works okay.
11:16:40 For departures, yes, they will slide back 175 feet.
11:16:45 On the current runway 3, before they take off and to
11:16:52 show you what the impacts of that really is.
11:16:54 As you can see throws no change in the user base of the
11:16:58 You can get a Jepsen -- runway at Peter O. Knight,
11:17:04 3,405 feet.
11:17:06 That's what it will say.
11:17:08 We have no intention of larger ones.
11:17:13 Here's the penalty we talked about before and it's
11:17:15 pretty significant.
11:17:17 The criteria for this airport to maintain the utility
11:17:20 we want to maintain is for the King Air C90 and the
11:17:24 King Air 200. The King Air C90 has a maximum takeoff
11:17:27 of 10,100 feet.
11:17:29 Runway length requires it to be 3590 feet since we
11:17:32 don't have it.
11:17:32 They are already taking a penalty of 473 pounds.
11:17:36 If we shorten the runway, to 3230, they would take a
11:17:40 penalty of 908 pounds which is 500 additional pounds.
11:17:45 That's three or four passengers.
11:17:47 That's cargo. That's fuel.
11:17:49 That's whatever they have to take away the utility of
11:17:51 the airport.
11:17:51 I believe you heard a person earlier say we would have
11:17:54 to relocate his operation out of Peter O. Knight.
11:17:57 The next one is more critical.
11:17:59 The king air 200 shows, they need 12,500 feet, plus --
11:18:06 3590 feet, currently taking the penalty of 1679.
11:18:10 If we reduce the runway, they would take an additional
11:18:13 penalty of almost 1300 pounds, five or six people on an
11:18:20 So what we did, and we agreed to do, and this slide
11:18:24 shows it pretty well, is why again I told you earlier
11:18:27 the FAA standard for measuring is not single-event
11:18:30 The FAA standard for measurement is average noise
11:18:33 That's true at Peter O. Knight, Vandenberg, Tampa
11:18:37 international, all of the airports we have.
11:18:39 But in an effort, because at the community meeting they
11:18:43 asked if we would measure noise, and we did, measured
11:18:47 noise at these various locations.
11:18:48 It's hard to see because some of them -- but it's at
11:18:51 the end of run way 3, also the end of the taxiway
11:18:55 there, and then down to the extended end of the runway.
11:19:00 And after completing this, we did two of these.
11:19:02 We did one on August 14th when there were calm
11:19:06 The existing runway 3, the noise was 59 decibels.
11:19:14 That's where we measure, right down the circle on the
11:19:21 It's someone's driveway right off the airport.
11:19:23 You can see where they are pointing to it.
11:19:27 So we did that.
11:19:28 We went through, 59 decibels.
11:19:32 We couldn't do the new end of the runway because we had
11:19:35 a muddy day that day.
11:19:37 It had rained.
11:19:37 He would couldn't get a plane out there.
11:19:40 The existing taxiway.
11:19:42 The proposed new runway at 57.
11:19:46 Then went back on September 26th which was
11:19:49 downwind, which is the worst possible scenario that
11:19:52 they can face, had about a 10 to 12 knot downwind into
11:19:57 the airplane, did it again, runway 2 was 59 decibels --
11:20:01 the proposed end of runway 3 was 73, existing end of
11:20:04 taxi area was 65, the proposed was 73.
11:20:09 While we were measuring, the noise levels at the
11:20:13 airport with fully calibrated, certified noise
11:20:17 monitoring equipment, several things happened.
11:20:21 A motorcycle drove by and it was 97 decibels at the
11:20:24 same time.
11:20:26 Running the lawnmower equipment 88 decibels. A tour
11:20:28 bus on Savern is 88 decibels.
11:20:32 Tractor trailer truck on Savern was 88 decibels.
11:20:37 The KC 135 military aircraft overflight created 77
11:20:43 Cars on Savern were 72 decibels.
11:20:46 I'm just trying to put that into perspective, the facts
11:20:49 of what is this real noise?
11:20:50 And it's similar to the ambient noise that's already in
11:20:53 the community.
11:20:54 So I think that's important to point out.
11:20:58 Next, we would try, because the community asked us that
11:21:02 we look at some new noise abatement procedures.
11:21:05 Our current procedures show run-up maintenance
11:21:09 restricted from 9 p.m. to 7 a.m.
11:21:13 Maintenance aircraft run-ups at the south end of runway
11:21:17 1735, that's an important one, and I'll show you what
11:21:19 that means.
11:21:20 Because runway 35, the lower right-hand corner where
11:21:24 that runway is, we send our ground maintenance run-ups
11:21:29 over there, to get as far away from the community as we
11:21:32 possibly can.
11:21:33 That's something we already do.
11:21:34 Another one was helicopter arrivals and departure
11:21:38 Light traffic for runway 3, on runway 35 operations.
11:21:43 It's very, very significant.
11:21:44 And I'll show you what that means.
11:21:46 Because most airports have a left downwind turn.
11:21:50 If you are doing the downwind turn for this runway, on
11:21:53 the right side of this flying south, turn around and
11:21:56 coming back, and landing on the runway, that's keeping
11:21:58 the airplanes out over the water, over the port, not
11:22:02 over the residents at any time.
11:22:05 A lot of airports come in over the residence.
11:22:10 So we have already done that and that's an important
11:22:12 one to take in the operation.
11:22:15 New noise abatement procedures we want to consider at
11:22:17 the request of the civic association is no touch-and-go
11:22:21 operations from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.
11:22:23 We will implement that.
11:22:24 A touch-and-go operation is practice flying in and out.
11:22:27 Prohibit practicing from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m
11:22:32 Then the last one, which you can't see here that really
11:22:35 has a big impact, an additional item we are going to do
11:22:37 is keep this engine run-up area at the same location.
11:22:42 I'll show you what that means because it's pretty
11:22:45 When we did the noise monitoring we did the testing, we
11:22:48 came down to the end of the runway, at the end of it
11:22:53 with the new taxiway for the engine runups.
11:22:56 Between engine planes, single engine planes, before
11:22:59 they take off they run up their engines.
11:23:01 We measured it when they came to the end of that
11:23:04 That's what caused some of the noise to increase.
11:23:06 That engine runup lasts for 60 seconds.
11:23:10 I'll talk about a takeoff in a minute.
11:23:12 But what we decided, we worked out, we are going to
11:23:16 leave the engine runup where it is today.
11:23:19 So anybody running up engines prior to take off of the
11:23:22 aircraft, it will be a sign that says we prohibit you
11:23:26 from going south.
11:23:27 So in a nutshell, the most intrusive of the noise
11:23:30 abatement, the noise impacts on the Davis Island, will
11:23:34 not change.
11:23:35 It's going to be the same as it is today.
11:23:37 You are still going to have noise, engine runups for 60
11:23:41 seconds in that same location.
11:23:42 The other one, when the plane does taxi down for
11:23:44 takeoff, yes, they are going to come down towards the
11:23:47 end of that runway.
11:23:48 At that point in time they have already done their
11:23:50 engine run for safety, they start to run up again and
11:23:55 then they take off immediately.
11:23:56 So that noise might be there for six to eight to ten
11:23:59 They start moving down the runway.
11:24:01 Once they move down the runway obviously the noise is
11:24:04 So this one here will have a huge impact as well on
11:24:07 potential impacts of the noise.
11:24:10 Another one that was brought up again, and at the last
11:24:12 meeting when you talked, the Aviation Authority was
11:24:14 planning on massive, massive increase it is size of the
11:24:18 operation of this airport.
11:24:19 That master plan that was shown to you, by the way,
11:24:24 which was approved in 2003, with full public input from
11:24:28 everybody, no opposition to that master plan, this is
11:24:32 the forecast operation.
11:24:34 An operation is a landing and a takeoff.
11:24:36 This is only shown annual growth rate of 1% between
11:24:41 We do not plan on taking that airport and making it
11:24:44 We have also found out because of what happened since
11:24:47 9/11 and what's happened with the cost of fuel,
11:24:50 operations are down.
11:24:52 When you see I have two at 50 Landings and takeoff, we
11:24:56 know that's closer to 40,000, not 50,000.
11:24:59 Because we can tell that by monitoring the fuel that
11:25:03 was purchased at he so operations are down.
11:25:10 So again we aren't showing massive changes.
11:25:12 The hangars are also part of that plan that we did in
11:25:19 With all the public input.
11:25:20 I remember we had already made a major compromise with
11:25:23 the Davis Island civic association, City of Tampa, that
11:25:25 he would wouldn't build those hangars over there by
11:25:29 SAVERNE, and went one step further saying the 22 acres
11:25:34 we had off of Davis Boulevard, they could have put
11:25:39 hangars over there too but we agreed in the long-term
11:25:41 we don't need this space, nothing will be developed
11:25:43 there without the approval of the City of Tampa.
11:25:46 That's been done.
11:25:47 So now the only place we have left is develop the
11:25:51 hangars over here.
11:25:52 And the hangars over there, that makes sense, further
11:25:55 away from the community, don't have -- if they would
11:25:59 have down there where SAVERNE Avenue.
11:26:05 And you can see on the left there, the front view.
11:26:07 East of Davis Boulevard.
11:26:09 The proposed view after you build the hangars.
11:26:12 It really isn't a major change and it isn't going to
11:26:15 make the impact huge.
11:26:18 The other side of those hangars is the port of Tampa,
11:26:21 fuel tax and other things.
11:26:22 If you go to the next one, current view from the south
11:26:25 Davis Boulevard, same thing.
11:26:27 You can see where the hangar -- the one on the right
11:26:31 shows when the hangars come in, what they will be.
11:26:34 Further out you see the larger hangar that's already
11:26:38 That's as it exists today.
11:26:39 So here again, no major change.
11:26:41 But this is not different from what we plan in the 2003
11:26:46 master plan, that he would took through the entire
11:26:49 process, for all three of our general aviation airports
11:26:52 had public input, had community input, and came back,
11:26:55 so the hangars are no different than the others.
11:27:00 Where we are at today is after holding all of those
11:27:03 meetings I pointed out to you, you add them all up, you
11:27:07 have some nine meetings with the civic association,
11:27:11 their subcommittees.
11:27:12 We met with other groups.
11:27:19 Taking this back in December, we have moved up twice
11:27:22 because at the request of the civic association.
11:27:25 We moved it to the January board meeting.
11:27:28 Then the City Council, you folks came to us and said,
11:27:31 would you move it one more time, because you had heard
11:27:34 from Davis Island civic association.
11:27:37 We came back and said yes.
11:27:38 So where we stand today, January 17th, we are
11:27:41 making a presentation to you as a City Council.
11:27:43 Our plan going forward from here, really our
11:27:48 presentation, new informational presentation, our plan
11:27:51 going forward on February 7, next month we will take
11:27:55 this to the aviation board for final review and
11:27:58 consideration from the board.
11:28:01 So with that being said, I think that is everything I
11:28:04 have here.
11:28:05 I have an expert on some of the flying.
11:28:09 If you have questions I would certainly be happy to
11:28:12 answer them.
11:28:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I just want to first, Madam Chair,
11:28:16 recognize Mr. Steve Fletcher, the chairman as well.
11:28:22 So, Steve, good to see you.
11:28:25 How are you doing today?
11:28:25 Also, board members, I served five years on the
11:28:30 Aviation Authority.
11:28:30 And when this got adopted.
11:28:35 I want to make sure you are aware of that.
11:28:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: When the master plan was presented
11:28:50 in 2002 and tree was there still expectation the master
11:28:55 plan would go out into Seddon Channel?
11:28:57 >>> Yes, there was.
11:28:58 And that's why we changed, because it showed all the
11:29:03 hangars, all the aviation development and when we found
11:29:05 out we couldn't do that, that's when we went back to
11:29:08 the public process and started having all the public
11:29:11 meetings again and we have search of them.
11:29:13 So that was a change.
11:29:15 Because the FDOT came back to us and says you have to
11:29:18 fix this.
11:29:19 After Seddon Channel, after we found out we couldn't do
11:29:22 it in Seddon Channel.
11:29:24 That did change.
11:29:25 But the hangars and the others didn't change.
11:29:27 I know the information from Shirley Foxx-Knowles, we
11:29:34 continually talked about the statement in this
11:29:36 presentation, you see runways would not be extended.
11:29:40 Well, first of all this runway is not being extended.
11:29:42 But that runway that they were talking about then is
11:29:45 that other runway, 1735 that was going to be extended
11:29:50 17 to 3400 feet and I showed you that was taken off the
11:29:53 So back in '99 when we bought it we took a lot off the
11:29:57 table and gave the city back a lot of property they
11:29:59 could use for parks land.
11:30:00 We have dog parks.
11:30:01 We have a lot of things out there already.
11:30:03 We have always worked with the Davis Island civic
11:30:05 association to improve it.
11:30:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: One other quick question.
11:30:08 How do we ensure -- I was very pleased to hear that the
11:30:11 engine runups would occur where they are now.
11:30:16 How do you make sure pilot does that?
11:30:19 >>> We put signs up to say you will do it here.
11:30:22 If they violate it and don't do it they will be issued
11:30:24 a citation, they could end up eventually losing their
11:30:27 license if they don't comply with the rules because
11:30:29 they are regulated by the FAA.
11:30:31 So that will go through that process just like you
11:30:33 mandate when you put up, you know, a 50 mile-an-hour
11:30:37 speed zone, you better comply.
11:30:38 If you don't you can face penalties.
11:30:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Miller, you mentioned jets at
11:30:47 Vandenberg at the 5,000-foot runway.
11:30:50 At 3405 feet are there any jets today that could take
11:30:53 off and land on 3405 feet?
11:30:56 >>> Yes, there are.
11:30:58 And they have come currently.
11:31:01 But there are none based there.
11:31:02 We don't plan on basing any there.
11:31:04 They normally come in with a very lightweight.
11:31:07 It is not their intention to operate there on a regular
11:31:09 basis, a commercial service basis.
11:31:11 We checked into it, into the fact that the insurance
11:31:16 company, if we operate a commercial service business, a
11:31:20 charter business when with those kind of planes, you
11:31:23 are going to have a minimum of a 5,000-foot runway.
11:31:27 Occasionally a 4,000-foot runway but never blow that.
11:31:30 So it's an insurance issue.
11:31:32 But I am not going to tell you they can't come in.
11:31:34 And right now we probably get two or three jets a year
11:31:37 that will come in there.
11:31:39 We can't stop that.
11:31:40 But we are not developing it for jets.
11:31:42 And as I mentioned to you, council member Miranda, we
11:31:44 have spent a fortune, at Tampa International Airport,
11:31:49 as well as Vandenberg airport, to get the jets to go
11:31:53 there, not come here.
11:31:58 >>CHAIRMAN: Other questions by council members?
11:32:00 We will now listen to the president of the Davis Island
11:32:02 civic association.
11:32:08 >>> Rudy Fernandez.
11:32:10 And I'm not the president of the Davis Island civic
11:32:12 I used to be.
11:32:13 But she is running late and asked me to speak on her
11:32:17 I understand I have ten minutes and we are going to
11:32:18 allocate our time.
11:32:20 I am going to have two speakers come of a after me
11:32:22 within that ten minute period.
11:32:23 At any rate, I was not only a past member of the civic
11:32:28 association, I was sitting on council back in 1998,
11:32:31 1999, when this whole deal was negotiated.
11:32:33 And basically what we are pretty much asking for is
11:32:37 that we stick to the intent of what we negotiated back
11:32:40 in 1998, 1999.
11:32:43 At the time, the property, the airport property was
11:32:45 worth well in excess of $100 million.
11:32:48 Today it's worth even more than that.
11:32:50 But the city sold it to the airport authority for $4.7
11:32:55 million, a fraction of its actual value.
11:32:57 Under the condition that it remain an airport, and
11:33:00 within those conditions, and one of the things that was
11:33:03 heavily negotiated is that there would be,
11:33:05 quote-unquote, no development west of the runway.
11:33:09 Now, and that's where you come into some challenge
11:33:12 here, because are they talking about development west
11:33:15 of the runway?
11:33:16 Well, they are moving the runway.
11:33:18 Is that -- did we intend for that to be under the
11:33:22 western end of the runway that was there at the time?
11:33:24 Or the western end of the runway after this development
11:33:28 gets put forth out there?
11:33:30 So that's the big part of what we are discussing about
11:33:32 here, is what was intended by that, and the civic
11:33:38 association wholeheartedly believes and I as one of the
11:33:41 people negotiating on behalf of council for this, felt
11:33:44 that the runway, if that no development should be west
11:33:48 whereof the existing runway was and is currently right
11:33:52 The second issue I want to talk about is Mr. Miller is
11:33:55 talking about moving the runway.
11:33:56 And yes, that's correct, that technically they want to
11:33:59 move the runway to the west.
11:34:02 But after all this gets said and done, there's going to
11:34:04 be 175 feet of linear concrete above and beyond what's
11:34:10 currently there now.
11:34:11 So even though the runway isn't technically being
11:34:15 increased, there is going to be a whole lot more
11:34:18 concrete to the tune of 175 feet worth.
11:34:23 Moving the runway is going to bring it closer to the
11:34:25 neighbors, closer to the parks, closer to the
11:34:27 recreation, a lot of people use that facility there.
11:34:32 And Mr. Miranda hit right on the topic of what one of
11:34:35 our big concerns is, is that of jets.
11:34:38 Currently, yes, jets do come in and out of there.
11:34:41 Not much.
11:34:41 But the technology of jets is increasing by the month.
11:34:45 The wait list for these jets is increasing and our
11:34:51 concern is with this new runway, closer to the
11:34:54 neighborhood, closer to the parks, closer to
11:34:56 recreation, it could be -- it very likely will make
11:35:01 this airport more palatable for jet traffic.
11:35:03 I want to touch on a few things in the master plan.
11:35:06 The first is -- and I'm reading out of Peter O. Knight
11:35:10 airport master plan, where it talks about in this
11:35:12 capacity, significant air traffic uses Peter O. Knight
11:35:16 airport rather than TPA, potentially eliminating or
11:35:20 diverting substantial delay from Tampa international.
11:35:22 Again, our concern is, the more that we increase the
11:35:27 utility of Peter O. Knight airport, the more appealing
11:35:30 it is for other planes that are currently using
11:35:33 Vandenberg and Tampa international to come over here.
11:35:35 The next issue out of the master plan of Peter O.
11:35:38 Knight airport says the airport is currently operating
11:35:42 at 14% of capacity, according to the forecast demand,
11:35:46 the airport will operate at 28% of capacity by the year
11:35:52 Ladies and gentlemen, that means that their projections
11:35:55 estimate this to double in twelve years.
11:35:59 The next thing out of the minutes of the City Council
11:36:01 meeting back in 1998 says here, council member
11:36:05 Fernandez stated for the record that what often happens
11:36:09 with developments over a situation like this was a
11:36:12 gradual process that occurs perhaps over a 20-year
11:36:16 He, councilman Fernandez, wanted to ensure that the
11:36:18 city would not be in a situation 20 years down the
11:36:21 road -- we are halfway there -- where the city would
11:36:24 have a larger development than had been bargained for.
11:36:27 >> That councilman was very eloquent.
11:36:29 >>> Thank you, councilman.
11:36:31 So that being said, because of the potential impacts to
11:36:34 parks, recreation, surrounding neighborhoods,
11:36:38 surrounding neighbors, the Davis Island civic
11:36:40 association passed a resolution opposing this
11:36:43 development, which I would like to receive and file for
11:36:45 the record, and also we have stacks and stacks of
11:36:49 signatures of Davis Island residents, which I would
11:36:52 also like to receive and file for the record of people
11:36:55 opposed to the development of this airport.
11:36:57 With that said I would like to turn some time over to
11:36:59 Dan Smith, the professional sound engineer, who spoke
11:37:03 to you about an hour ago, and he would like to clarify
11:37:06 a few things and some questions as part of the
11:37:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Since he spoke earlier, can he speak
11:37:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, did you lay out your ground
11:37:16 rules for the process.
11:37:17 Did you specifically state that those people who did
11:37:19 speak at public comment would not have another
11:37:22 >>GWEN MILLER: So he cannot speak.
11:37:23 >>> Well, I will speak on behalf of Dan Smith, the
11:37:27 professional sound engineer.
11:37:28 Basically to answer some of the questions that arose
11:37:30 was, you know, the 55 decibels versus the 77 decibels,
11:37:36 I believe it was.
11:37:38 That's the sound at the houses.
11:37:41 So what currently sounds like 55 decibels would sound
11:37:46 like 77 decibels at essentially right outside the
11:37:51 So it's not inside the house.
11:37:52 It's right outside the houses.
11:37:54 Watt sounds like inside the house depends on whether
11:37:56 the windows are open or closed.
11:37:58 Typically, it's the nice days when the windows are open
11:38:00 and the sky is blue and the air is crisp that there's
11:38:04 more impact from the airport than days when we are all
11:38:06 closed into our homes.
11:38:08 The next issue with regard to the sound engineer had to
11:38:13 do with -- it will come to me later, after I have Bob
11:38:17 green speak.
11:38:18 Bob green didn't speak and he would like to speak a
11:38:20 little bit.
11:38:21 And then I'll address the sound issue situation.
11:38:27 >>> Council members, I appreciate just a couple of
11:38:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Put your name on the record.
11:38:31 >>> Bob Green.
11:38:32 I'm a Davis Island resident and engineer, president of
11:38:35 an engineering company.
11:38:36 There are a couple of issues, and to be perfectly
11:38:38 honest, I don't have the answers and I'm quite
11:38:41 You know, the original 1999 FAA order on the runway
11:38:45 safety area, safety program, it was written out as an
11:38:51 order 52.8.
11:38:53 And there are a number of different -- you know, at
11:38:56 that stage they wanted runway safety areas for run way
11:38:59 at the end of each end of the runway.
11:39:00 And they had mandated certain numbers.
11:39:03 But they came in and as said, we are not going to
11:39:07 require an airport who cannot economically or
11:39:10 environmentally feasibly add that amount.
11:39:14 We are not going to shut them down.
11:39:16 We are not going to reduce the length of their runway.
11:39:18 You come in, and Chicago midway is a perfect example.
11:39:21 That's a perfect example where, hey, you can't
11:39:23 economically and feasibly add to the end of the runway.
11:39:26 So they gave you just a tremendous ultimate number of
11:39:31 One is to basically say, low, we can't do it, we have
11:39:34 done the best we can economically and feasibly and the
11:39:36 FAA then can give you -- it's not a waiver.
11:39:41 They will not waiver the runway safety area.
11:39:43 They will waive your requirement to meet that number.
11:39:47 They also will turn around and say, but if you can come
11:39:50 up with something else, it would be great if you can do
11:39:53 So they have things that are out right now called
11:39:55 engineering materials arresting systems.
11:39:58 I am not going to get into it.
11:39:59 But the biggest one that you could ever think of would
11:40:01 be sitting on an aircraft carrier, that they have them
11:40:04 for other airports, regular commercial airports, will
11:40:09 essentially slow the planes down.
11:40:10 They will also give you credit for let's say you have
11:40:14 an irregular parcel, and one area is longer, and just
11:40:18 because of the way the runway turns, they actually give
11:40:21 you some credit and say, it's kind of neat that you
11:40:24 take this longer dimension and count that, and not --
11:40:28 even though you don't have it fully across.
11:40:30 There are a lot of different ways that you can get
11:40:31 better compliance.
11:40:33 But right now, once they give you that waiver, in the
11:40:37 document it says, you don't have to revisit it unless
11:40:40 you are going to go do major construction.
11:40:43 And their definition of major construction is
11:40:45 construction to the runway.
11:40:46 It's not, hey, we are going to go build hangars.
11:40:49 It's, we are going to reroute the runway, or we are
11:40:52 going to completely overlay the runway.
11:40:54 And so that's why I'm confused.
11:40:56 I don't understand why we are even seethe sitting here
11:40:58 talking about this, because they did get the waiver in
11:41:02 1999 or 2003 when they did the master plan.
11:41:05 And I don't see, at least in the documents I have
11:41:09 reviewed, any reason that we are revisiting that.
11:41:12 My last thing does tie back into the 2003 master plan.
11:41:17 The HNTB who did the master plan, solid engineering
11:41:21 firm, if you go back into the section they talk about
11:41:23 the two alternatives.
11:41:24 Because recognizing early on the safety program wasn't
11:41:28 even in existence.
11:41:30 2003, it's in existence.
11:41:32 And so they did.
11:41:33 They came up with two alternatives.
11:41:34 The one that you know about is sitting out in the
11:41:38 Their second feasible alternative, and they use the
11:41:41 term -- let me try that one more time.
11:41:43 Even at that time in the master plan, they said, the
11:41:47 odds of being able to put this puppy out in the channel
11:41:50 are very slim.
11:41:52 Environmental issues.
11:41:53 It's got all kinds of issues.
11:41:55 But then they said alternative 2 is displaced
11:42:00 That would be doing where you mark the lines on the
11:42:02 runway and, yes, do you lose some utility of the
11:42:06 Those were the only two alternatives, feasible
11:42:10 alternatives they gave.
11:42:11 Now being an engineer in an engineering firm I would
11:42:15 have looked at and I am absolutely certain that HNTB
11:42:19 would have looked at, why not just move the runway back
11:42:22 towards the residents?
11:42:25 That's the feasible alternative.
11:42:27 For me not to even include that in an engineering
11:42:30 report moneys one of two things.
11:42:32 I either had outside information that said it is not
11:42:35 acceptable, it can't be done, or I had a client who
11:42:38 told me, don't even use that because it can't be done.
11:42:42 Somebody said it can't be done in 2003.
11:42:46 Otherwise it would have been fitting as a potential
11:42:48 alternative to that master plan.
11:42:52 My summary on this -- and you know I just have serious
11:42:55 questions on why we are doing it, why it's required at
11:42:58 this stage, and I firmly believe that the Aviation
11:43:02 Authority in 2003 recognized that they could not do any
11:43:05 development including runway extensions in that
11:43:10 I just say right now we are in a paradigm shift on
11:43:13 these very light jets.
11:43:15 There are about seven manufacturers.
11:43:17 There are thousands of back orders right now.
11:43:19 They just basically are purchasing almost every Eclipse
11:43:24 500 that are out and you can get.
11:43:26 Right at this second, Mr. Miller is absolutely correct
11:43:29 the insurance companies are in a flux.
11:43:31 Because I checked with mine on just exactly what it
11:43:33 will cost for me to get one.
11:43:35 And what I could land on.
11:43:37 Right at this second they are saying, we are still
11:43:39 holding to 5,000 feet.
11:43:41 Only because we don't have enough data, and that we
11:43:45 will consider looking at it and log at shortening the
11:43:48 runway requirements.
11:43:50 And once they get enough data overall, you know, the
11:43:54 push is going to be to drop it.
11:43:57 Every ten years all these big planes they are talking
11:44:00 about, five years from now, nobody is going to want one
11:44:03 of those, because for 1.25 million -- and that may
11:44:07 sound like a lot but for king air and these bigger
11:44:10 planes it's nothing.
11:44:11 For 1.25 million, 475 miles per hour, everybody that
11:44:15 has the money that wants to be flying are going to be
11:44:17 flying very light jets.
11:44:19 And I can guarantee you, they will be landing those
11:44:21 jets at Peter O. Knight airport.
11:44:24 Thank you.
11:44:26 >>> Rudy Fernandez: There's an ordinance in place that
11:44:36 says you have to build your house up eleven feet on
11:44:38 Davis Island to comply with the national flood rules.
11:44:41 We had a house that was at seven feet.
11:44:43 We could have said, hey, we have got to tear it down
11:44:46 and rebuild it to comply with the federal standards.
11:44:49 But we didn't have to.
11:44:50 I mean, granted if we had torn it down the new house
11:44:53 would have been at eleven feet.
11:44:54 And that's way don't understand about the government
11:44:57 regulation as it relates to this airport.
11:45:00 The government is saying that, yes, if you were to
11:45:02 build a new runway, you would have to add an extra 175
11:45:06 feet to the displaced threshold.
11:45:08 But if they do nothing -- and this is an answer that I
11:45:11 haven't fully understood the answer to.
11:45:13 This is a question I haven't fully understood the
11:45:15 answer to.
11:45:15 If they do nothing, is that okay with the federal
11:45:18 I think that the federal government regulations only
11:45:21 apply if they started adding to, if they start
11:45:24 repaving, if they start making changes.
11:45:26 I don't know the answer to that question.
11:45:28 But without further ado, I would like to ask the
11:45:30 members of the Davis Island residents that support the
11:45:34 civic association's position on this to please stand.
11:45:36 A lot of them had to get back to work.
11:45:40 I would like to receive and file the motion for the
11:45:43 Davis Island civic association and the petitions from
11:45:47 the neighbors that are opposed to this.
11:45:48 I would ask -- I'll be glad to answer any questions.
11:45:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott.
11:45:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fernandez, and also Mr.
11:46:03 Miller for coming and making a presentation.
11:46:05 Would you come back, please?
11:46:06 I need to ask the attorney.
11:46:10 Here again do we have any jurisdiction in this
11:46:12 particular proceeding?
11:46:13 Now, Mr. Miller, I guess you need to respond to some of
11:46:16 the questions that were raised, and also, can the
11:46:23 Aviation Authority not do nothing?
11:46:24 >> No, we can't.
11:46:25 Here in writing the federal Department of
11:46:27 Transportation, as I mentioned in there, the Florida
11:46:30 Department of Transportation, they will not give us the
11:46:32 license because we don't comply with federal standards.
11:46:37 The requirement is you have to have that 240-foot
11:46:40 safety area.
11:46:40 They have given us a waiver because they knew we were
11:46:43 moving forward to correct that.
11:46:44 If we don't correct it, FDOT will automatically lose
11:46:51 that distance on the runway and shorten our runway down
11:46:54 to where it's unacceptable.
11:46:56 I should also like to point out on the noise, it keeps
11:46:59 coming up the noise.
11:47:00 Noise as stated.
11:47:01 These are factual.
11:47:02 These are fully calibrated machines that measure this
11:47:07 They measure in the these areas.
11:47:09 And we are not adding decibels like this but the noise
11:47:13 came back and there were those four items I pointed out
11:47:16 to you were louder than that airplane.
11:47:17 And that was a motorcycle, a running lawnmower
11:47:20 equipment, tour bus on Savern, tractor trailer.
11:47:23 So we do have to require, and we do have to comply.
11:47:27 And I know it's been sent out by the FAA.
11:47:30 You must comply with the safety zone or shorten the
11:47:33 And our goal is not to shorten the runway or the
11:47:37 utility of the runway.
11:47:37 We don't want to give up that utility.
11:47:39 So we are going to go what we are doing here.
11:47:41 And the changes we have made by repositioning that into
11:47:45 run-off prior to takeoff has a major impact.
11:47:49 That's where you had the 60 second of noise.
11:47:52 It's not going to be any different than it is today.
11:47:54 And we do not -- and actually some of the very light
11:47:57 jets are quieter, by the way, than king airs.
11:48:02 We still don't think they are going to come here.
11:48:04 They are going to go to Vandenberg.
11:48:06 They are going to Plant City or St. Pete/Clearwater
11:48:08 international airport or other airports.
11:48:10 But we can't guarantee that.
11:48:11 But I will respond to any other questions.
11:48:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I guess I we ask legal to take a look
11:48:19 at this and see what was our role.
11:48:35 >>DAVID SMITH: City attorney.
11:48:36 We did some additional research to determine what role
11:48:38 if any we have and whether we have legal issues that
11:48:41 are within the purview or jurisdiction of this council.
11:48:44 And the answer that wove come up with is no.
11:48:47 Julia Cole did most of the research for us.
11:48:49 The FAA preempts the regulations of the airport.
11:48:54 There is a process, the master planning process that is
11:48:56 subject to community input, and some participation by
11:48:59 this council.
11:49:00 But that process has been completed.
11:49:02 It's our understanding from talking with Cathy Coyle
11:49:05 that the uses contemplated within the existing zoning,
11:49:09 so there's no rezonings, waivers or other things that
11:49:11 are necessary in that regard.
11:49:12 With respect to the noise issues, it's either regulated
11:49:15 by the FAA, or, if not, by the -- he would don't have
11:49:21 jurisdiction there as well.
11:49:22 We looked at the documentation pertaining to the
11:49:24 transaction, to the extent there were any restriction
11:49:26 that is were supposed to be incorporated, they were
11:49:28 incorporated in the in a lot of pieces or parcels of
11:49:31 the property that were discussed.
11:49:32 There was no reverter or other control retained in the
11:49:37 deed itself to provide us access to, to assert whatever
11:49:40 additional conditions we may want to assert.
11:49:43 So unfortunately we did not find a legal access point
11:49:46 for this council to do much about the issue as it
11:49:50 exists today.
11:49:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So based on your legal analysis, they
11:49:55 have, I guess, the authority followed the original
11:49:59 agreement going back to '99 or whatever.
11:50:04 Is that what you are saying?
11:50:05 >>> Based on the -- documentation, that's correct.
11:50:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: My question is to myself a little
11:50:11 bit but maybe Mr. Miller or somebody else can answer
11:50:14 If you have 3405 feet now, and you are going to have
11:50:19 3405 feet if this passes, there is really no difference
11:50:24 in a jet landing today and landing tomorrow other than
11:50:26 it might be a little bit more dangerous.
11:50:28 >>> That's correct.
11:50:30 There's no change in the runway.
11:50:32 The runway right now is set up at 3405 feet.
11:50:36 I would like to address one more issue that was brought
11:50:38 up about development west of the runway.
11:50:41 That was that 22 acres of property that we had.
11:50:44 That's where we are restricted.
11:50:47 There is no development west of the runway.
11:50:49 It's just on the runway.
11:50:50 So that was not -- you in the documents, now what that
11:50:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I had a couple of questions.
11:51:04 Mr. Miller, when you said that if this isn't done the
11:51:11 runway would be unacceptable.
11:51:12 Is that for the existing usage?
11:51:15 >>> Sure.
11:51:17 If that FDOT letter --
11:51:20 >> So that would preclude the majority of the planes?
11:51:23 >>> Not the majority but a lot of the planes.
11:51:27 Some of the people that spoke to you earlier said they
11:51:29 would have to relocate their airplanes to other
11:51:31 >> That was the king plane.
11:51:33 >>> Some of the smaller planes too,.
11:51:35 Not just the king airs.
11:51:36 It's not just the one space.
11:51:38 We have a lot of people flying into here from other
11:51:40 So they would have to relocate if we were going to do
11:51:43 >> And I read an article in the Wall Street Journal
11:51:50 about day jets, the personal journal section.
11:51:53 And it sounds like day jets are very, very hot.
11:51:55 The Wall Street Journal was saying that they
11:51:57 anticipated huge increase.
11:51:59 Have you all tracked that?
11:52:01 And where do you anticipate these day jets would go?
11:52:04 >> Day jet is already contacted -- right now they are
11:52:08 talking about going into Lakeland airport.
11:52:09 Their second choice in Hillsborough County is
11:52:15 Vandenberg airport, then St. Pete/Clearwater airport.
11:52:18 They have no contact with us as far as commercial
11:52:22 operation would take place at Peter O. Knight airport.
11:52:25 It would be these other airports.
11:52:26 >> The reason that just logically as an urban planner,
11:52:30 I would think they would prefer Peter O. Knight is
11:52:32 because of its proximate to downtown.
11:52:34 And I would think that people who are flying in or
11:52:36 coming here for business meetings downtown Westshore
11:52:38 area, and Peter O. Knight would be a lot more
11:52:42 convenient for them.
11:52:42 Are you able to give me any reassurance that this would
11:52:47 not be the place --
11:52:50 >>> they need more runway.
11:52:51 The run way length is they would have to take severe
11:52:54 penalties on what they are doing to come to Peter O.
11:52:56 >> But we are anticipating they are going to have
11:52:58 smaller lighter planes, and therefore would be able to
11:53:01 utilize it.
11:53:02 >>> Also been told, some of the future very light jets
11:53:08 will be lighter than king air.
11:53:10 >> but the point is the amount of traffic, quality of
11:53:13 life for the island residents.
11:53:15 >> I think forecast protections we have only shown it
11:53:20 by 1% a year, we will bring back to you and update
11:53:25 We can't limit an airport and take away the utility of
11:53:28 the airport.
11:53:28 I mentioned earlier that we spent fortunes at two other
11:53:34 airports, Tampa International Airport, being the
11:53:37 biggest one, to get them out there, a second FPL,
11:53:45 Raytheon, we have doubled the number of based airplanes
11:53:47 and jets, and we spent over $35 million at Vandenberg
11:53:52 to do the same thing.
11:53:53 >> Which is great.
11:53:54 >>> And 5,000-foot runway.
11:53:56 By the way, they have 600 feet.
11:54:00 We don't have room for that.
11:54:03 But our intention is not to develop the runway, to move
11:54:06 any traffic from Tampa international as has been said.
11:54:09 But we are spending more money at Tampa international
11:54:11 and general aviation than we are here.
11:54:13 1.6 billion.
11:54:14 >> Thank you.
11:54:18 I have a question for Mr. David Smith, if I may.
11:54:22 David, the City Council adopted the master plan that
11:54:27 anticipated that the runway would go out to the Seddon
11:54:32 When that was changed, my question to you is, doesn't
11:54:38 City Council -- and that's a significant change --
11:54:41 wouldn't council have the ability to review and comment
11:54:45 on the change?
11:54:47 >>DAVID SMITH: Actually it's my understanding City
11:54:49 Council did not adopt the master plan.
11:54:50 I think that's determined by the FAA.
11:54:52 What City Council does is they receive notice when a
11:54:56 master plan is being adopted or amended.
11:54:59 It's not even necessarily that you're a party, that you
11:55:02 are a noticed entity.
11:55:05 >>> By the way, the FAA has already approved the
11:55:11 modification of the airport.
11:55:15 That runway reconfiguration but the Planning Commission
11:55:17 has seen this but we do not bring it to the city.
11:55:20 We do not bring it to the -- that's not only true, not
11:55:26 just Peter O. Knight, but Plant City, Vandenberg, Tampa
11:55:29 International Airport.
11:55:32 So public process should be involved and they have been
11:55:34 involved as we go through that public process.
11:55:40 >>DAVID SMITH: Just to clarify. That is pursuant to
11:55:44 There are separate state created agencies not created
11:55:47 by the city or the county.
11:55:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: When the hospital changes their
11:55:50 plans, they come to City Council.
11:55:52 It's usually a PD zoning for a hospital.
11:55:54 Don't we have a PD zoning --
11:55:56 >>> we have an MAP zoning.
11:55:58 And each -- Cathy Coyle and all these uses consistent
11:56:04 with the MAM zoning.
11:56:06 So we do have a role here but this use is consistent
11:56:09 with the approved MAP.
11:56:11 >> Does MAP zoning speak to the separation of the
11:56:15 runway uses from the residential --
11:56:18 >>> it's Euclidean in nature so it really speaks only
11:56:20 to the uses.
11:56:21 >> It's not site plan --
11:56:23 >>> no, no.
11:56:23 >> Thank you.
11:56:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Miller, one last question.
11:56:32 Thank you for providing this letter from the Florida
11:56:33 Department of Transportation dated November 28, 2007.
11:56:37 I don't know, Mr. Shelby, if we gave him back his
11:56:40 original copy.
11:56:43 >> We did.
11:56:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We are.
11:56:47 We all got a copy of this.
11:56:49 And it appears that there's no doubt the FDOT, it looks
11:56:53 like in the middle of the page, said the following
11:56:56 deficiencies have been temporarily mitigated.
11:56:59 That's the one we are speaking about, right?
11:57:04 105 feet.
11:57:05 A safety area project is scheduled and will be depleted
11:57:07 by October 2008.
11:57:09 So I guess what they are saying there is we are issuing
11:57:14 you a new license.
11:57:15 We have noted some deficiencies.
11:57:17 Here's one deficiency.
11:57:18 You have temporarily mitigated and you have told us you
11:57:21 are going to permanently fix it by October 2008.
11:57:23 >>> Actually they have given us a conditional license.
11:57:26 Do you have a copy of that too?
11:57:29 The actual license says that on there.
11:57:31 Conditional until this is fixed.
11:57:34 >> And ultimately to add that, to add that additional
11:57:38 concrete, whatever we want to call it.
11:57:41 The additional footage down on the south end will cost
11:57:45 a million dollars or something like that.
11:57:47 >> 1.8 million.
11:57:48 >> 1.8 million.
11:57:50 Have we asked the D.O.T. in writing either before or
11:57:53 after this letter came out, have we asked them in
11:57:58 writing to -- for any type of waiver to allow us to
11:58:03 leave the status quo?
11:58:04 >>> Actually, We would not want to leave the status quo
11:58:08 because it's not safe.
11:58:09 You need that safety area.
11:58:11 And D.O.T. would not allow this.
11:58:12 We talked with them but also have a license --
11:58:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: When you get back to the podium, I
11:58:22 guess you answered my question.
11:58:25 We have not asked them in writing whether or not they
11:58:28 would allow us to leave the status quo.
11:58:30 Because it's been a determination by you and your staff
11:58:34 that niece that's not your desire.
11:58:36 >>> It's not in the best interest of the airport, not
11:58:40 the best interest of users of the airport and it also
11:58:42 does not comply with FAA regulations who would be the
11:58:46 next one to come back and say you can no longer do
11:58:49 >> And it's been this way for a long time.
11:58:53 >> Yeah.
11:58:55 >> I realize we don't have a lot of jurisdiction but
11:58:58 I'm hearing a lot of discussion busy waivers and
11:59:00 deficiencies and that sort of thing.
11:59:01 But it would seem also to be able to save the
11:59:04 $1.8 million, you know, work with the community, it
11:59:08 doesn't change the length of the runway as everybody
11:59:11 said over and over.
11:59:13 If we left the status quo.
11:59:15 If we just asked the D.O.T. and the FAA, you know, if
11:59:21 they are allowed to leave the status quo and they said
11:59:24 no, then obviously it's out of your hands, our hands,
11:59:26 everybody's hands, the community's hands.
11:59:28 And if we have never asked the question, it's hard to
11:59:31 just -- you say you verbally asked it.
11:59:34 That's fine.
11:59:34 If you have never asked it in writing, we have never
11:59:36 got ten written answer, I'm sure Mr. Mitchell will
11:59:38 confirm this, we don't really have an answer, a legally
11:59:42 binding answer from the agencies.
11:59:44 >>> We have information from FAA that we got in an
11:59:47 e-mail reconfirming to us the requirement of the safety
11:59:52 area be 240 feet.
11:59:58 That's what they are saying.
12:00:00 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Miller, if you don't extend
12:00:02 this runway, what happens?
12:00:04 >>> We lose utility of the airport.
12:00:07 We reduce our runway utilization to 3200, and -- and
12:00:16 3230, which takes some of the airplanes that can comply
12:00:19 fly at the airport, can no longer fly there and it
12:00:22 reduce it is utility of the airport.
12:00:26 The utility that it was designed for.
12:00:29 Even included in the master plans when we were doing
12:00:31 So we certainly understand, and we made major, major
12:00:36 concessions to the Davis Island civic association.
12:00:40 All those changes we made from what was here in '99 and
12:00:43 moving that development.
12:00:44 And not developing hangars, not extending the other
12:00:49 runway to 3405 feet. That was actually in the plan.
12:00:53 We took that out and did away with it.
12:00:55 So I just think that what my recommendation then is
12:01:01 they'll have to make that decision, it's in the best
12:01:04 interest of the system of the airport of Hillsborough
12:01:06 County, Plant City, Peter O. Knight, Vandenberg, Tampa
12:01:11 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: It's primarily a safety factor.
12:01:13 >>> Absolutely.
12:01:15 Safety factor and maintaining the utility of the
12:01:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Mr. Miller.
12:01:19 I have a suggestion.
12:01:24 I have great respect for the Aviation Authority.
12:01:25 I have great respect for the Davis Island residents.
12:01:28 I feel like the hangars were part of the adopted plan.
12:01:32 And I don't have a problem with the hangars because,
12:01:37 the proposal to shift the runway is new news, and while
12:01:40 council according to our legal department doesn't have
12:01:42 any legal standing to direct the Aviation Authority as
12:01:47 a long-time council member and former representative of
12:01:52 Davis Island, city-wide, I would like to make a motion
12:01:56 that council request the Aviation Authority hold off on
12:02:02 changing the runway.
12:02:04 I think going ahead with the hangars is fine.
12:02:06 But I think that waiting on the runway -- and Mr.
12:02:10 Miller just eloquently talked to us about the
12:02:13 tremendous investment that you all have made at
12:02:16 Vandenberg and the jet port at Tampa international.
12:02:20 You have got all this additional capacity other places.
12:02:23 I would like to request that you hold off on this
12:02:25 runway for three years.
12:02:26 The reason being, in three yourself we are going to see
12:02:29 what shakes out with the smaller jets.
12:02:32 How the rules change, what the impact could be.
12:02:35 I think it would be -- the neighborhood requires our
12:02:39 That's our role as members of Tampa City Council.
12:02:41 The people we heard from who spoke in favor of this who
12:02:46 basically live -- everyone if they live on the island.
12:02:49 If they live on the other side of the island.
12:02:50 Residents we have heard from have back yards in which
12:02:55 they invested heavily are directly impacted by what the
12:02:58 increased noise would be.
12:03:00 My request would be that you go ahead full speed with
12:03:02 your hangar construction, but that you hold off for
12:03:05 three years on the relocation of the proposed runway
12:03:10 till we see how the aviation market changes, vis-a-vis
12:03:14 the small jets.
12:03:15 That would be my motion.
12:03:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder?
12:03:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll second it for discussion
12:03:24 I think that the intent is well intended on the motion.
12:03:27 I think that the really the more critical issue if I
12:03:31 was running the airport would be to ask the D.O.T., to
12:03:38 ask the Department of Transportation and the federal
12:03:39 Aviation Authority if they would continue to waive the
12:03:42 requirement just as they have been waiving it for the
12:03:45 last, you know, several decades.
12:03:51 Because in the absence of that, there is a deficiency
12:03:55 letter here, you know, in their possession dated
12:03:58 November 28th that I think the airport authority
12:04:00 has to do something with.
12:04:02 So I don't know that we can in God conscience ask them
12:04:04 to just hold off and not do anything for three years.
12:04:07 But I think the better motion would be a request from
12:04:12 council to request in writing that the FDOT and the FAA
12:04:19 consider waiving this requirement as they have for
12:04:23 So --
12:04:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay.
12:04:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So you want -- sort of a substitute
12:04:34 You need to modify your motion.
12:04:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA:
12:04:36 >>: My motion would be modified that they go ahead with
12:04:38 the hangar construction but before doing anything
12:04:42 waiting for three years that we request a ruling from
12:04:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That they request a ruling from FDOT
12:04:48 and that's a respectful request from this board, trying
12:04:52 to be respectful to the most impacted neighbors on
12:04:54 Davis Island.
12:04:57 >>> I guess my question would be to Mr. Miller.
12:05:00 I mean, that's basically what we want -- I guess they
12:05:05 don't have to do it, I guess.
12:05:06 So we can pass any motion we want, number one.
12:05:09 Number two is as you stated earlier, to me, everyone if
12:05:12 we -- you are telling me that it's unsafe.
12:05:16 So that's the problem I have
12:05:22 Only gave us temporary waiver.
12:05:24 And now they are telling us that they have to comply.
12:05:27 And he's saying that to leave it as is, it would not be
12:05:31 safe and they would be out of compliance with FDOT and
12:05:38 the FAA.
12:05:43 So I'm just saying you can pass any motion.
12:05:46 But my point is again, we have heard what Mr. Miller
12:05:49 We heard what our legal counsel is saying.
12:05:52 And the motion says go ahead and build hangar.
12:05:54 I mean, they can do that anyway.
12:05:59 So my issue is, how do we work with the community, and
12:06:05 to help them reach a compromise, but how does the
12:06:08 Aviation Authority work with the community to be able
12:06:11 to resolve any concerns they may have and to mitigate
12:06:14 any fears.
12:06:17 I would suggest that that's where the civic association
12:06:21 and the neighborhood continue to meet with the Board of
12:06:24 Directors at the Aviation Authority, and Mr. Miller,
12:06:27 and see how some compromise can be worked out.
12:06:31 >>CHAIRMAN: I agree with you, Reverend Scott.
12:06:32 But I can't see us making a motion to ask -- the
12:06:38 Aviation Authority needs time to get their things in
12:06:42 order and make things right.
12:06:43 I don't think they are going to waive the rules
12:06:46 They gave awe deadline to meet and I think aviation
12:06:49 needs to meet that deadline.
12:06:50 And I know they have the neighborhood feeling and I
12:06:52 know you want some kind of concerns to be answered but
12:06:56 I think you need to work with the Aviation Authority
12:06:58 and find out what they can do to help you.
12:07:01 But passing this motion might harm the aviation more
12:07:03 than help.
12:07:04 But like I say, they already waived the rules once and
12:07:07 you are going to go back to them again asking them to
12:07:09 waive the rules again, and tell you what you need to do
12:07:12 to get things in order.
12:07:14 I think that's what they have to do, do what they told
12:07:18 them to do.
12:07:18 Mr. Miranda?
12:07:19 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have read this document at least
12:07:23 And maybe I missed something here, because all this
12:07:27 changes so quickly from one council member to another
12:07:29 one to various A, C, D, B and the whole alphabet
12:07:35 really, to some degree.
12:07:38 I don't find -- and maybe I overlooked it -- about an
12:07:42 expansion of the runway.
12:07:43 And then the legal question in my mind is, if a
12:07:48 reconfiguration of the same distance of something, in
12:07:52 this case it's a runway, is that considered an
12:07:56 Or is that considered within the facts of 1999?
12:08:01 In other words, if it's going to stay at 3405 feet,
12:08:06 what did we expand?
12:08:07 Did we expand the runways length?
12:08:10 Or did reconfigure the runway to the same length?
12:08:14 And does it meet the intent of all that he would talked
12:08:18 about here today?
12:08:19 I don't have that answer.
12:08:20 >>> The answer to that question was yes.
12:08:24 Federal aviation administration did answer that
12:08:29 Said yes.
12:08:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm prepared to vote one way or the
12:08:33 other but I think the good people of Davis Island and
12:08:35 everyone here, this has been going on for some period
12:08:38 of time, and I think it was explained earlier by Mr.
12:08:42 Miller and the fact that he gave how many meetings with
12:08:48 the neighborhood, I think there was four or five, is
12:08:50 that correct?
12:08:53 To be close to that?
12:08:56 I mean, the parties are what they had May 15, September
12:09:00 18, October 15, November 6, November 28, December
12:09:05 Six meetings.
12:09:07 I don't know they can go back and iron out any
12:09:09 differences that hasn't been ironed out to date.
12:09:14 These things have happened already.
12:09:16 They have met.
12:09:17 They have concurred.
12:09:18 They disagreed.
12:09:19 They have agreed.
12:09:19 They work.
12:09:20 They changed.
12:09:21 They came up to a consensus not to agree to agree.
12:09:27 In essence.
12:09:28 So I'm prepared to vote.
12:09:29 I don't know about the other council members.
12:09:34 >>GWEN MILLER: We'll hear from Mr. Caetano and then
12:09:37 >>> I know I wouldn't want to live near an airport.
12:09:40 You said this was done in 1945.
12:09:42 >> 1933.
12:09:43 >>> 33.
12:09:45 That's when I was born.
12:09:46 Anyway, the people knew when they moved there, there
12:09:53 was an airport.
12:09:54 And I can't see us putting something off.
12:09:57 You have got an impeccable record as far as safety.
12:10:00 And this is the important factor on this whole vote
12:10:03 today, is the safety, as you have been instructed by
12:10:07 the Aviation Authority that you need to do what you are
12:10:11 So I know it's a tough vote.
12:10:15 And like Charlie said I'm ready to vote.
12:10:17 >> We have a motion and second.
12:10:19 All in favor of that motion say Aye.
12:10:23 The motion to write a letter asking them --
12:10:27 >> To apply for the waiver to the D.O.T. and the FAA.
12:10:29 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Waiver for the --
12:10:32 >> The waiver to leave the status quo.
12:10:36 >>CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second.
12:10:38 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
12:10:39 Opposed, Nay.
12:10:50 Thank you, Mr. Miller for coming.
12:10:51 And you may proceed with your plan.
12:10:54 We hope safety will be for the neighborhood.
12:10:58 It's 12:00.
12:11:00 Before we say we are going to adjourn, do we have
12:11:06 anyone present --
12:11:08 >> Do we neat need to vote on this thing?
12:11:11 We haven't voted.
12:11:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Going to volunteer to serve on the
12:11:16 I want them to come back.
12:11:18 I would like for them -- let's go ahead.
12:11:22 >>MARTIN SHELBY: We can make an announcement, are there
12:11:24 any candidates for any board appointments who are
12:11:27 present here?
12:11:27 I see two hands.
12:11:28 Any others?
12:11:30 Two people?
12:11:30 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like for you to say that we can
12:11:35 hear those two.
12:11:37 They are volunteer reappointments.
12:11:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I agree, Madam Chair.
12:11:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here from -- hear from only those
12:11:56 that are here.
12:11:58 >>CHAIRMAN: Which ones, Ms. Marshall?
12:12:02 >>THE CLERK: (.
12:12:04 (There was a discussion off the record.):
12:12:09 (off microphone).
12:12:10 >> Mr. Roberts.
12:12:13 He has done a great job.
12:12:14 >> Motion and second to reappoint Mr. Roberts.
12:12:16 (Motion carried)
12:12:17 The next one?
12:12:24 >>THE CLERK: (off microphone)
12:12:26 >> Is Mr. David Siegel here?
12:12:38 Give your name, sir.
12:12:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I read Mr. Siegel's report.
12:12:45 He had various letters of recommendation.
12:12:47 But I would like to at lowest meet the gentleman.
12:12:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Carry it over.
12:12:52 >>CHAIRMAN: Okay.
12:12:54 Would you come up, sir?
12:12:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to carry over 68 then.
12:12:59 >> Second.
12:13:00 (Motion carried).
12:13:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Next meeting.
12:13:09 >>THE CLERK: (off microphone).
12:13:26 >>CHAIRMAN: Would like to reappoint them.
12:13:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Reappoint those three.
12:13:31 >> So moved.
12:13:32 (Motion carried).
12:13:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That takes care of 69.
12:13:41 >> Number 70.
12:13:42 >> Mr. Dunmire, he has applied for the code
12:13:49 In the various review board you are you have two
12:13:51 vacancies, attorney or engineer, Mr. Baron was just
12:13:57 appointed last year.
12:13:59 He expressed an interest being reappointed.
12:14:01 And James kinkalotto does not want to be reappointed
12:14:07 and we did receive and application from Mr. Bradford
12:14:09 and he is -- an instructional --
12:14:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Are we pointing the alternate
12:14:17 >>THE CLERK: You have an alternate and the others
12:14:20 There has to be an attorney, urban planner or engineer
12:14:23 to serve --
12:14:24 >> And he meets that criteria also, right?
12:14:27 >>> I believe so.
12:14:29 >> We can appoint one as a regular.
12:14:37 >>CHAIRMAN: Would you like to say something?
12:14:41 >>> No.
12:14:42 I guess you don't need me.
12:14:45 It's on the application.
12:14:46 My background is essentially the same as James
12:14:54 We both own firms that do about exactly the same work.
12:14:57 We have a lot of experience with codes and zoning,
12:15:02 et cetera, et cetera.
12:15:04 So, I mean, that's all I would say.
12:15:08 I don't know if you have any --
12:15:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question.
12:15:10 Recently, the Code Enforcement Board has not been
12:15:15 protecting trees.
12:15:16 Not the Code Enforcement Board.
12:15:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The Variance Review Board.
12:15:21 >> Variance review board has not been protecting trees
12:15:25 and it's been a real concern to council because wove
12:15:27 gone through a lot of work to adopt good tree
12:15:30 ordinances that protect the trees.
12:15:32 We have lost some staff, unfortunately, who could speak
12:15:36 before these boards, and the board has not been
12:15:39 protecting trees in neighborhoods.
12:15:41 So I'm asking you, if you are appointed, will you
12:15:44 protect trees?
12:15:45 >>> Well, what I will do -- the answer is yes, in the
12:15:51 sense that a lot of the parts of the work that when do
12:15:57 deals with the results of when someone -- when there's
12:16:06 a grand oak there, and there are things that they have
12:16:08 to do to the design of that house to address that tree.
12:16:12 That comes up all the time.
12:16:14 And so that sort of gives me first-hand knowledge, if
12:16:19 they come before the board and say, well, that's a huge
12:16:23 hardship, I can't change my house because of this tree,
12:16:29 I sort of know the facts on that, here are things that
12:16:33 you can do to address that because we have done it time
12:16:35 and time again.
12:16:36 >> In construction.
12:16:37 >>> Yes.
12:16:38 So that's how I would --
12:16:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sure, council, by asking of the
12:16:43 question you are not asking this gentleman to make a
12:16:45 commitment to.
12:16:48 >> Demonstrate engineering knowledge.
12:16:53 >>> I would just know what the real interest --
12:17:01 >>CHAIRMAN: What's the pleasure of council?
12:17:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: A commitment when you just said
12:17:09 yes, would you weigh each one.
12:17:11 >>> Right.
12:17:12 Essentially the way I would view -- I would apply the
12:17:16 variance rules is on hardship that it would induce to
12:17:20 have to comply.
12:17:21 And that is how I think the core part of the rules
12:17:29 should be applied to all these things like, you know,
12:17:32 if neighbors don't like it, et cetera, et cetera.
12:17:34 But the core part is are there hardships in applying
12:17:39 the rules.
12:17:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Question procedurally.
12:17:42 There's another gentleman who raised his hand.
12:17:44 What board is he applying for?
12:17:45 >>GWEN MILLER: We haven't got threaten yet.
12:17:52 Oh, we already appointed him, didn't we?
12:17:56 >>THE CLERK: You reappointed the three individuals that
12:17:58 you appointed six months ago.
12:18:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: In regard to the Variance Review
12:18:02 Board, I'm going to make a motion to reappoint Mr.
12:18:07 Baron as our permanent representative, and Mr. Bradford
12:18:11 seems very capable and appoint Mr. Bradford as our
12:18:21 >> I'm not sure the alternate position Mr. Baron would
12:18:24 qualify for.
12:18:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: System analyst, I forget where.
12:18:40 But that's way read in the record.
12:18:47 >>THE CLERK: Mr. Bradford as the alternate?
12:18:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Bradford wants to be the alternate
12:18:54 >>THE CLERK: He submitted his application for
12:18:55 appointment as an alternate.
12:18:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let's hold this.
12:19:01 It's getting confusing.
12:19:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you want to defer for two weeks?
12:19:05 That's fine.
12:19:05 >> February 7th?
12:19:07 >> Yes.
12:19:09 Till we have a full board.
12:19:10 >>GWEN MILLER: We are going to analyze what you want to
12:19:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:19:16 I appreciate your time.
12:19:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Need a second.
12:19:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move to defer.
12:19:25 (Motion carried)
12:19:26 And the other gentleman, it appears that the -- we have
12:19:29 just gone through the process, appointed three people
12:19:32 six months ago.
12:19:32 So I think we are just going to let them run for a
12:19:35 little bit.
12:19:36 I appreciate you coming down and your interest and
12:19:38 maybe there's another board you can apply for real
12:19:40 Code enforcement.
12:19:42 >>CHAIRMAN: Do we have an opening for code enforcement?
12:19:45 Oh, the mayor does that.
12:19:46 Thank you.
12:19:47 We are going to be in recess until 1:30.
12:19:50 (Meeting in recess)
The preceding represents an unedited version of
realtime captioning which should neither be relied
upon for complete accuracy nor used as a verbatim
The original of this file was produced in all capital
letters and any variation thereto may be a result of
third party edits and software compatibility issues.
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proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.
Tampa City Council
Thursday, January 17, 2008
1:30 p.m. session
The following represents an unedited version of
realtime captioning which should neither be relied
upon for complete accuracy nor used as a verbatim
The original of this file was produced in all capital
letters and any variation thereto may be a result of
third party edits and software compatibility issues.
Any person who needs a verbatim transcript of the
proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.
13:46:27 [Sounding gavel]
13:46:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.
13:46:29 Roll call.
13:46:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
13:46:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
13:46:35 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
13:46:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
13:46:38 We are going to start with item 71.
13:46:51 My name is Lucie Ayer, the Executive Director of the
13:46:54 Hillsborough County MPO.
13:46:55 Thank you for making time for me to make a
13:46:57 presentation for you today.
13:46:59 And I am going to be very brief because you have a
13:47:06 I need the presentation, please.
13:47:09 >>GWEN MILLER: It's already on.
13:47:11 >>> Okay.
13:47:12 As you may know, the MPO has completed a concept that
13:47:19 will go all the way to the year 2050.
13:47:22 So we are talking about very long-term investment
13:47:29 By way of technology I want to let you know that we
13:47:32 are looking at modes of transportation.
13:47:39 And you know that they are very flexible.
13:47:48 >> Can you speak more loudly?
13:47:50 >>> It is on, right?
13:48:01 I have to lean forward because I'm short. Anyway, in
13:48:03 terms of the commuter rail, county run very long
13:48:07 distance, and that is a good thing.
13:48:09 And also it can replace up to one lane of interstate
13:48:17 construction, so now that that's pretty helpful.
13:48:19 The only problem with it is that it is not very
13:48:25 You cannot climb steep hills and horizontally it
13:48:30 cannot fluctuate too much eat.
13:48:32 And then of course then you have the light rail.
13:48:34 It has a huge capacity improvement in terms of
13:48:40 augmenting the construction on the interstate, for
13:48:46 And you can have very frequent service.
13:48:49 And then the God thing is that there is very agile.
13:48:53 County go up and down very easily, and also making
13:49:00 So those what we are log at for the future.
13:49:06 And some of the statistics is pretty alarming.
13:49:09 We anticipate that the traffic could increase ten
13:49:13 And then the time to travel could go up to three times
13:49:17 more than it is today.
13:49:20 In terms of the study, we followed the process. In
13:49:22 June we identified the needs, and then in August we
13:49:27 come out with the transit concept.
13:49:29 We went through a whole series of public workshops.
13:49:32 Some of you might have been to the Channelside
13:49:38 theater, and in October we came up with the final
13:49:41 recommendation with the city MPO.
13:49:47 Some of the consents you might have known.
13:49:49 We have our goals, mobility, the quality of life.
13:49:56 But what's important at this time as we look at our
13:49:59 system, we look at destinations.
13:50:02 And then we have tried to find the best opportunity.
13:50:07 And this is a composite map of everything we envision.
13:50:12 We are actually going to start at the bottom.
13:50:15 We can't see too much with the captions.
13:50:18 You can see the green line covers the entire urban
13:50:23 area and that is very important.
13:50:24 Nothing in terms of transit can operate efficiently
13:50:28 with our good bus system.
13:50:31 Then I am going to go back to other features.
13:50:36 We talked about light rail.
13:50:37 And you might have seen this.
13:50:39 This is very similar to the Tampa rail.
13:50:42 However, there are improvements there.
13:50:45 We are proposing to serve USF a lot more directly.
13:50:49 As a matter of fact, there are a few transit stops.
13:50:53 It used to be that the alignment was on Bruce B. Downs
13:50:57 and nobody can say that there really is a service to
13:51:02 And because -- we will also be able to serve city of
13:51:08 Temple Terrace as well as the MOSI, the museums we all
13:51:14 know very well.
13:51:16 And, also, from downtown to the airport, take
13:51:26 advantage of the alignment on I-275, so there is a way
13:51:35 of doing that.
13:51:36 And also we are proposing a future to serve the
13:51:45 Raymond James stadium.
13:51:46 You see right angle alignment up there.
13:51:51 Also because of our regional cooperation with the
13:51:54 other counties, and in this case Pinellas County, we
13:51:57 are proposing that this will go through the bay area
13:52:03 and possibly -- you don't have it very close to the
13:52:07 Howard Frankland bridge to go all the way to Pinellas
13:52:11 And then the other one is from Westshore to downtown,
13:52:14 to Brandon.
13:52:17 This line really captures all the populations in
13:52:23 Hillsborough County.
13:52:24 And then there is a shorter one, yet very productive,
13:52:27 and that's a line that would serve South Tampa, but
13:52:30 it's the green line.
13:52:32 Then I am going to move onto the commuter rail
13:52:38 This one will go all the way up to Lutz.
13:52:41 Commuter rails tend to have opportunities to go to the
13:52:43 other counties.
13:52:44 And in this case, as you know, it can go north all the
13:52:47 way up to Brooksville.
13:52:48 And then we have a line that will go east that will
13:52:54 serve Plant City.
13:52:58 And beyond.
13:53:00 And then there is an alignment to go through the
13:53:05 southern part of the county.
13:53:06 And this line can go all the way to Sarasota.
13:53:09 Now, this is what we call a regional rail.
13:53:14 This will have the opportunity to be running on I-4.
13:53:18 And it can go all the way to Orlando.
13:53:23 So this is another very important corridor that we are
13:53:27 Basically, the difference between light rail and
13:53:33 commuter rail is that light rail tends to have more
13:53:37 So we are talking about you can see they have stations
13:53:42 that are about a mile apart.
13:53:44 And the commuter rail, stations are about five miles
13:53:50 You can see that the number corresponds westbound the
13:53:52 number of miles.
13:53:53 This is just by way of comparison.
13:53:58 For our entire plan, you can see the statistics.
13:54:03 And our plans are similar to what Denver has proposed.
13:54:07 And, unfortunately -- not unfortunately for them but
13:54:12 the point is that Denver will have to finish this by
13:54:15 2012, and for us we would be very happy if we can
13:54:19 start any of this by 2012.
13:54:21 And I just want to highlight some of the information
13:54:26 that was actually sort of presented to you all by Ray
13:54:34 Chiaramonte, the relationship to land use again.
13:54:37 What we are talking about is that there are three
13:54:40 types of stations.
13:54:41 You have the regional, the community and then the
13:54:45 As you can see, the regional stations tend to be
13:54:50 bigger and can absorb higher density.
13:55:06 This is the higher density.
13:55:07 And this is what you can see when we propose a
13:55:10 comprehensive transit system for this county.
13:55:19 This is what we have right now.
13:55:21 once again, if we do this, this is what we can
13:55:27 And this gives you a point of reference as I mentioned
13:55:33 to you before, both the two lines, the red and blue
13:55:38 line, tend to hold a lot more jobs and a lot more
13:55:46 residential than the others.
13:55:48 And this is for us to say that with the system, one
13:55:53 third of the household or 50% of the jobs can be
13:55:59 So that's when you can begin to reshape this
13:56:02 community, and really give people a choice to live and
13:56:08 work close to transit.
13:56:11 Just to give you some idea about what we think might
13:56:15 happen, you can see the density.
13:56:20 And you will see that if we don't do anything, then
13:56:23 the densities would be a little bit higher.
13:56:26 But if we implement this concept you will see that you
13:56:32 find then a lot more people and jobs can be
13:56:39 We also tried to look at the potential ridership.
13:56:42 The first one is the Tampa Westshore and Pinellas
13:56:47 And I would be very quick to point to you that we
13:56:53 believe that the ridership is going to be higher, is
13:56:57 because we don't have the numbers from Pinellas
13:57:01 That's why wove an asterisk.
13:57:03 The other one that is also performing quite well is
13:57:06 the Brandon to Westchase.
13:57:08 And those commuter rails tend to accommodate a little
13:57:13 less so you can see the numbers come down a little
13:57:16 And we also looked at the capital costs.
13:57:20 You all know that.
13:57:21 It is a major investment.
13:57:22 So you can see that the total right there investment
13:57:28 can go up to 3.8.
13:57:36 But before it goes back to Pinellas County, I think
13:57:39 it's for the regional authority to assist us in
13:57:46 putting this together.
13:57:47 So together about $800 million of that would be for
13:57:49 the service that would go this side of Howard
13:57:54 Frankland to Pinellas County.
13:57:56 So it's quite a bit of area that we can think about.
13:58:01 Then for the commuter rail the total cost is
13:58:05 $2.3 billion but once again you see one is downtown.
13:58:13 We believe it will be one or the other but not both so
13:58:18 once again the number would go down.
13:58:19 This is the operating and maintenance cost.
13:58:23 Altogether, it's about $91 million.
13:58:26 And I remember when I left Miami, the operating costs
13:58:35 for the Miami bus system was $91 million.
13:58:40 So it is not out of consideration for this community.
13:58:46 Think about this in the next 50 years.
13:58:49 So what we have done is on November 6th, the MPO
13:58:54 adopted this concept that I just presented to you.
13:58:57 And what we are doing is we have to update the
13:59:03 long-range transportation every two years.
13:59:07 So what it means is we have done the part about
13:59:11 So we are working on the highway side now.
13:59:14 And then what we would like to do is to provide this
13:59:19 information to the regional transportation authority,
13:59:25 TBARTA, and we are working with D.O.T., and we are
13:59:29 providing the technical information so that they can
13:59:32 decide at what point they can incorporate any of our
13:59:39 concept to the regional plan.
13:59:40 And that basically is the end of my presentation.
13:59:44 And I'll be more than happy to answer any questions
13:59:46 you may have.
13:59:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank you as director of
13:59:51 the MPO for your leadership, looking ahead and doing
13:59:55 I wish that the Department of Transportation would
13:59:58 recognize what you have done and just say we'll take
14:00:03 the MPO's lead which is essentially what they are
14:00:06 Is there anything that this council can do to endorse
14:00:11 this or, you know, encourage it along?
14:00:15 >>> If you wish, you can endorse it, and that will
14:00:18 just give us even more support.
14:00:28 >> I don't sit on the MPO but I think it's great.
14:00:31 I would love to sit on the MPO.
14:00:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mary Mulhern, and John Dingfelder?
14:00:43 >> You have the big four.
14:00:45 >> The MPO has endorsed it in November already.
14:00:50 As I said, I would welcome an endorsement from the
14:00:54 City Council.
14:00:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I agree in spirit with Ms.
14:00:59 Saul-Sena's motion.
14:01:00 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
14:01:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council wanted it in the form of a
14:01:05 written resolution?
14:01:06 Or did you want it in the form -- because under the
14:01:09 charter what's under discussion with Mr. Smith as to
14:01:12 council action.
14:01:13 If it wishes to make a resolution, I --
14:01:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: A resolution I think is what's
14:01:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: A resolution supporting the
14:01:21 Hillsborough County MPO transit by Tampa City Council.
14:01:25 >>CHAIRMAN: We have a motion.
14:01:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Just say thank you.
14:01:30 You have done a great job.
14:01:33 Made the MPO already aware so I support the whole
14:01:37 >>GWEN MILLER:
14:01:38 (Motion carried)
14:01:48 >>CHAIRMAN: Okay.
14:01:49 Item 32.
14:01:50 Mr. Gregory Spearman.
14:01:59 Mr. Gregory Spearman, how are you?
14:02:01 >> Director of contract administration.
14:02:05 I am with Mr. Spearman, director of purchasing and Mr.
14:02:09 Gregory Hart, director as well.
14:02:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If I could just for a second. This
14:02:15 item specifically, as has council member's Mulhern's
14:02:19 name on it and I'm just thinking with her being home
14:02:24 sick, with her son who is ill today, I'll move we
14:02:31 continue till she's here.
14:02:34 I apologize for making you wait.
14:02:37 She initiated it and then we just chimed in.
14:02:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
14:02:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
14:03:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I moved it to -- well, move it to the
14:03:04 next meeting.
14:03:05 The 7th.
14:03:07 >> When Ms. Mulhern is back.
14:03:09 >> Second.
14:03:09 (Motion carried)
14:03:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 76.
14:03:19 Continued public hearing.
14:03:24 Anyone that's going to speak on item 75 through 85,
14:03:35 please stand and raise your right hand.
14:03:36 >>THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
14:03:39 the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
14:03:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I ask that all written communications
14:03:43 relative toe today's hearings that have been available
14:03:45 for public inspection in council's office be received
14:03:47 and filed into the record at this time.
14:03:49 By motion, please.
14:03:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
14:03:53 >> Second.
14:03:54 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
14:03:55 (Motion carried)
14:03:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you.
14:04:03 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
14:04:05 Case WZ 07-149 is requesting a 2(APS), package sales
14:04:11 of beer and wine, 1912 west Columbus drive.
14:04:16 As noted in the staff report the wet zoning contains
14:04:19 3,347 square feet of building area.
14:04:22 It's the alcoholic sales are incidental to the primary
14:04:26 There is a wet zoned establishment, residential
14:04:29 property, and four institutional uses within a
14:04:32 thousand feet, per chapter 3, section 70 A-6.
14:04:41 If the use is incidental council can waive.
14:04:47 The southwest corner of Columbus and Fremont.
14:04:50 The red is outlined, the building.
14:04:55 This is a survey to show you the layout of the
14:04:58 The establishment itself, meat market and grocery.
14:05:04 This is the west side.
14:05:09 South side alley.
14:05:10 Looking east from Fremont.
14:05:13 Then this is across Columbus.
14:05:16 Staff has no objection.
14:05:17 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Show that first picture of the
14:05:19 establishment itself.
14:05:25 I just missed it.
14:05:27 >> Staff has no objections.
14:05:33 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police
14:05:36 I have been sworn.
14:05:38 Police department has no objection to the wet zone.
14:05:40 I just want to advise council we did do an
14:05:47 investigation, and some local churches may be here to
14:05:49 speak on the matter.
14:05:53 Included Mr. My report also.
14:05:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner.
14:05:58 >>> My name is Todd Pressman, 28870 U.S. highway 19
14:06:03 north suite 300 Clearwater, Florida.
14:06:05 I'm here today with Mr. Hashim Suleiman.
14:06:11 I worked with him for a number of years.
14:06:15 I do want to make you aware, which I think is
14:06:18 important, that Hashim operates a number of stores.
14:06:22 He operates two in Tampa right now.
14:06:24 One at 1302 East Waters.
14:06:27 Another 4801 North Lewis.
14:06:29 He operates a third store in Clearwater at North
14:06:32 Police department indicated he's never had a complaint
14:06:34 against him.
14:06:35 He's never had a complaint about alcohol sales.
14:06:37 So he is experienced.
14:06:39 He has been in the business since 1994.
14:06:42 What I would like to make you aware of is, a couple
14:06:45 times in the continuance, and we hold an open house.
14:06:49 If we could go to the overhead, please.
14:06:51 What we chose to do was hold an open house for -- I
14:07:02 was there just the other day, because this store is
14:07:05 really like a grocery store.
14:07:07 And by that, if many of the council members are
14:07:10 familiar with it, for example, the store carries a
14:07:12 full line of fresh cut metes.
14:07:15 When I was there two nights ago, Hashim had two folks
14:07:22 come who were working on a continuous stream of
14:07:25 This is just another picture of it.
14:07:27 And at the store he also carries a full line of frozen
14:07:32 Again it's mostly families coming in.
14:07:35 When I was at the store.
14:07:38 Carries vegetables.
14:07:39 Green products.
14:07:40 Quite substantially.
14:07:41 And it's really just a full capacity store.
14:07:45 And I think that's what's critical here, is we talked
14:07:48 with neighbors and talked with folks.
14:07:52 What's proposed here is ancillary to his business as
14:07:55 it is at his other stores.
14:07:57 As you are well aware it's just beer and wine
14:08:00 When I went at night during the open house pretty much
14:08:04 the business coming through was pretty much family
14:08:11 We did have a number of folks who came by the open
14:08:13 house when, one of the women are here today that will
14:08:17 speak to you.
14:08:17 One of the folks, his name was Jerry Scaglione, who
14:08:22 identified himself as the Belmont Heights crime
14:08:25 prevention group, said he was going to send an e-mail
14:08:28 in for support.
14:08:29 He wasn't representing that group but he explained
14:08:30 to me he was part of that group. I also have a letter
14:08:34 that I would like to pass out to you, if I may.
14:08:36 I have copies for you.
14:08:59 Hashim is a friend and chose to send a letter for
14:09:03 today's hearing as it's coming around.
14:09:08 Directed to the chairman.
14:09:10 Ed writes: We are writing in support of this
14:09:14 application for beer-wine sales.
14:09:19 This is a new grocery store in old West Tampa.
14:09:22 It's not a convenience store but a full service small
14:09:25 grocery store.
14:09:25 We are personally familiar with all the food stores in
14:09:28 this part of west than the and we believe this has the
14:09:31 broadest and best selection of meat and produce.
14:09:33 Store's prices are competitive.
14:09:35 Store is well maintained and serves many residents of
14:09:37 West Tampa.
14:09:38 We believe it's appropriate for full-service grocery
14:09:40 store to have beer and wine so it can also provide
14:09:43 better service to its patrons. This is even more
14:09:46 important in places like West Tampa where a full
14:09:48 proportion of residents walk to a nearby store instead
14:09:51 of drive in their car.
14:09:52 I also -- there is a delivery service for folks who
14:10:01 indicate they can't drive.
14:10:02 Ed notes in the last paragraph further on a personal
14:10:04 note we have had an opportunity to deal with Mr.
14:10:09 Suleiman on different issues, found him to be a good
14:10:11 businessman who has a genuine interest in helping old
14:10:14 West Tampa grow and improve and has invested in other
14:10:17 commercial properties.
14:10:17 I think this is the kind of person that you are
14:10:19 looking to attract in West Tampa.
14:10:21 Hashim is also working on another site now 1901 and
14:10:26 1907 North Howard which is an older dilapidated site
14:10:31 currently under renovation which he hopes to bring up
14:10:33 to an office.
14:10:35 So in summary, we tried to do as good an outreach as
14:10:38 we could into the community.
14:10:39 We wanted to get folks to the store and see the store.
14:10:42 This is ancillary to his business.
14:10:45 Hashim has provided a good, solid, long-term history
14:10:49 of operation was alcohol sales in a city, and we would
14:10:52 like to ask for your support for the request.
14:10:54 Thank you.
14:10:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
14:10:56 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on
14:10:57 item 75?
14:11:01 >>> Hello.
14:11:06 My name is Janice, I'm president of the old West Tampa
14:11:10 neighborhood association and crime watch.
14:11:12 I have a petition here from the residents who oppose
14:11:15 the wet zone
14:11:26 Just FYI, there are three businesses within walking
14:11:29 distance that supply any alcohol needs that anybody
14:11:33 could ever possibly want.
14:11:37 There is super Mario's gas station at 2901 North
14:11:40 Howard Avenue.
14:11:41 There's the cut rate liquor store, 2149 west Columbus
14:11:46 And an adult club Hollywood night, 3003 North Howard
14:11:51 We also have liquors at 3003 North Armenia Avenue
14:11:56 which is outside of the old West Tampa area.
14:12:00 I had the opportunity to speak with Todd back in
14:12:04 December to let him know that there was opposition to
14:12:06 this request.
14:12:09 I attended the open house on Tuesday.
14:12:11 I also had the opportunity to communicate with Mr.
14:12:15 Suleiman to have a better idea what his challenges are
14:12:19 and what the issues are.
14:12:20 And, you know, the bottom line is, old West Tampa is
14:12:24 undergoing redevelopment.
14:12:26 And we want to be viewed as a family-friendly area.
14:12:33 And the residents are just opposed to this.
14:12:37 There's just no other way for me to say this.
14:12:41 So I'm asking you not to approve this.
14:12:44 Please don't do any waivers.
14:12:48 There's something else you need to know.
14:12:49 During the lunch break today, Mr. Suleiman and I sat
14:12:55 down and talked about the challenges we both have.
14:12:58 And basically he said to me, what will it take for you
14:13:03 to change your mind?
14:13:05 And I said to him, I represent the neighborhood, and
14:13:09 the residents do not support this.
14:13:12 And I feel uncomfortable when somebody comes to me
14:13:15 saying something like that, because honestly, I can't
14:13:18 think of any other word for it.
14:13:20 It's almost like it's desperation.
14:13:22 It's do or die for him.
14:13:24 I mean, as a neighborhood leader, I'm willing to work
14:13:27 with him.
14:13:28 But I feel if there's an issue about a decrease in
14:13:32 customer base, I don't think an alcohol permit or
14:13:36 license is going to remedy the problem.
14:13:43 And I'm just against it.
14:13:44 And I just hope you don't vote for it.
14:13:46 Thank you.
14:13:49 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Can I ask you a question, please?
14:13:52 If this is approved, what are your fears?
14:13:54 >>> Well, I'm glad you asked.
14:13:57 Now what?
14:13:58 I apologize.
14:14:00 I asked Mr. Suleiman about any other grocery store he
14:14:05 had in the area.
14:14:06 And his other store is right next to Sulphur Springs
14:14:12 That is the only grocery store where alcohol is not
14:14:15 served and I'm assuming they can't do it probably
14:14:17 because they are so close to the school.
14:14:20 They offer check cashing services and many order sales
14:14:27 And Mr. Suleiman has been able to have a profit there
14:14:33 without selling alcohol.
14:14:33 To answer your question, I apologize.
14:14:35 4801 north Lois is another location where alcohol is
14:14:40 And my fear is that if the people don't come in to buy
14:14:46 the produce, to buy the meat, to buy the groceries,
14:14:50 he's going to, I would think, have to increase alcohol
14:14:54 And, you know, at that location there's a whole wall
14:15:03 of beer and wine and it's about 90%, 90 to 90% of just
14:15:09 And maybe 5 or 10% wine.
14:15:12 That's what my fear is.
14:15:14 If he's concerned about the customer base, let's work
14:15:17 on that.
14:15:20 But an alcohol license is really not going to solve
14:15:23 his problems.
14:15:23 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I have one other question.
14:15:26 On these other places, on Louis and east waters, did
14:15:30 you say?
14:15:30 >>> Yes.
14:15:31 >> Do you know of any complaints that have been filed
14:15:33 against that that is pro two places?
14:15:36 >>> I did not ask.
14:15:40 I went to the two locations Tuesday evening after I
14:15:43 attended the open house.
14:15:44 At 1912 Columbus drive.
14:15:46 >> Okay.
14:15:47 As a smart businessman he will probably put check
14:15:50 cashing and whatever he needs there to stimulate
14:15:53 business along with the rest of the business.
14:15:56 >>>: Right.
14:15:57 But I would hope that he would offer those services
14:15:59 because those services should offset any type of loss
14:16:03 he feels he might incur by not having this alcohol
14:16:09 He's a nice man.
14:16:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question for Rebecca Kert,
14:16:17 our attorney.
14:16:18 Rebecca, what is the appropriate posture of council
14:16:25 when people request a liquor zoning?
14:16:27 Are we supposed to assume that they have to prove that
14:16:32 it's beneficial to the neighborhood?
14:16:34 >>REBECCA KERT: Thank you for this opportunity, Ms.
14:16:36 I was going to try to jump up at some point to remind
14:16:39 what you the burden is that you're facing.
14:16:42 Right now the way that your system is set up, the
14:16:47 court reviewed it and said the burden is on the
14:16:50 application applicant to demonstrate it meets the
14:16:52 criteria in your code.
14:16:54 That's the only thing they have to demonstrate.
14:16:56 Criteria in your code is that the sale of alcoholic
14:16:59 beverages is incidental to the primary use.
14:17:02 At that point, in order for City Council to deny the
14:17:05 wet zoning request, there has to be substantial
14:17:10 competent evidence in the record that it does not meet
14:17:12 your code criteria and it it's adverse to public
14:17:16 >> One of the points that strength frequently is
14:17:19 discussed by council is if there are a number of other
14:17:21 places in close proximity that have liquor zonings and
14:17:25 this is just like a tipping point, it's too much, I
14:17:29 mean, wouldn't that count as appropriate consideration
14:17:35 by council?
14:17:38 >>> Yes.
14:17:39 It could be.
14:17:39 I do want to caution City Council that unless there's
14:17:43 evidence that there are similar sales in the evidence,
14:17:46 that is some evidence that it's has been presented
14:17:48 into the record that the use in itself is
14:17:51 >> But I think that there's another point that City
14:17:55 Council can consider, if there's evidence in the
14:17:58 The City Council has set up a distance requirement of
14:18:02 1,000 feet between alcoholic beverage establishments.
14:18:05 And therefore if there's evidence in the record that
14:18:10 additional alcoholic establishment would have adverse
14:18:12 effect, that could be a legitimate basis for denial
14:18:15 but it has to meet the evidence in the record.
14:18:17 >> For example, in Ybor City, we have said there's too
14:18:20 much alcohol.
14:18:22 So the fact that there are 20 places doesn't mean that
14:18:25 the 21st therefore is a good idea because we have
14:18:28 said maybe we should stop at 15, or 8 or something.
14:18:32 >>> But there's evidence that the alcohol that's there
14:18:36 or any additional alcoholic beverage sales is going to
14:18:39 cause an adverse effect which I think is what your
14:18:42 discretion is.
14:18:43 >> Thank you.
14:18:44 So I would like to ask a question of the lady that
14:18:45 just spoke.
14:18:50 So now that you have heard the attorney and the things
14:18:52 that council has to consider, as the neighborhood
14:18:54 representative, what are your concerns?
14:18:58 I mean, are you concerned --
14:19:01 >>> my concern is -- and maybe I should ask a
14:19:03 question -- what does obtaining this type of license
14:19:08 do in terms of any future needs?
14:19:10 Because I just feel that he's not going to get the
14:19:15 sales that he wants, number one.
14:19:17 The neighborhood opposes it.
14:19:19 So there's a problem there already.
14:19:21 And how do you justify the fact that you need -- maybe
14:19:25 you need to work a little bit harder, and get out into
14:19:29 the community, so that you can raise that revenue that
14:19:32 you are looking for.
14:19:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Now I pose this question to you.
14:19:38 What are the fears that the neighborhood has if
14:19:40 council were to grant this?
14:19:42 >>> Our reputation that the old West Tampa area is a
14:19:48 place that's really only known for a place where you
14:19:51 can get alcohol, and the residents, these are old time
14:19:56 residents, these are newer residents.
14:19:58 They really feel that it's going to have a negative
14:20:00 impact on our ability to get people to come back to
14:20:05 live in old West Tampa.
14:20:07 This is not personal.
14:20:08 I don't have anything against Mr. Suleiman.
14:20:14 But our area is an area of a growing redevelopment.
14:20:17 Wonderful things are happening there.
14:20:19 Now what I mean?
14:20:20 We have the Tampa Museum of Art that temporarily the
14:20:26 Centro Espanol, West Tampa.
14:20:29 I don't know, for someone who claims to be so much in
14:20:33 favor of working with the community, I feel the
14:20:35 community has spoken.
14:20:37 And I would just like him with his business experience
14:20:43 to see if there's any other way of addressing what
14:20:46 these needs are by not having an alcohol license.
14:20:49 >> Thank you.
14:20:50 Mr. Miranda.
14:20:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
14:20:53 There's things that were brought up that I would like
14:20:55 to discuss one at a time.
14:21:02 Holiday knights.
14:21:05 It's a bar.
14:21:06 It's open at 3:00 in the morning.
14:21:08 And have all kind of specials, whether it's right or
14:21:12 They have Friday and Saturday.
14:21:14 Saturday night on the other side of the street, they
14:21:16 sell hotdogs, hamburgers, on a sidewalk, without
14:21:20 anybody checking, I guess, because they are there
14:21:22 every weekend.
14:21:23 So that doesn't fit in the criteria of this.
14:21:27 And I don't know the gentleman here and I know Ms.
14:21:30 This does not fit in that criteria.
14:21:32 This fits to me as what is presented as a
14:21:37 quote-unquote, opportunity for a neighborhood to have
14:21:38 a complete store and a small scale.
14:21:42 West Tampa was built when you had a corner grocery
14:21:46 Mario's gas station is not a corner grocery store.
14:21:50 It is a gas station that sells grocery items along
14:21:54 with some type of beer and wine.
14:21:59 But their primary sale is gas.
14:22:02 And the sale is bread, put butter, whatever, but they
14:22:07 have very little other than the staples that you buy.
14:22:16 This is a complete, from way see in the film, or was
14:22:19 shown to me, unless my eyes are deceiving to me, this
14:22:22 is an original type store that was in West Tampa for
14:22:27 many years.
14:22:28 Let me go further.
14:22:30 Albany, four blocks south of Columbus drive, if you
14:22:33 want a problem, that's a problem.
14:22:40 Right, Mrs. Williams? I'm not mentioning any names.
14:22:43 That is a problem where on neighbors, you good
14:22:45 neighbors can't park.
14:22:46 They take over a complete block or two in each way.
14:22:50 The noise, I get complaints all the time.
14:22:53 And I tell them it's my responsibility.
14:22:56 I know that's in Reverend Scott's territory, but I
14:22:59 take the heat.
14:23:00 And I try to accommodate the best I can.
14:23:04 >> Thank you, Charlie.
14:23:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: But there's where the problem is.
14:23:09 I'm not for alcohol everywhere.
14:23:10 But I see an opportunity here to revive something, and
14:23:14 I don't even know if this is within a thousand feet of
14:23:16 any other alcohol establishment.
14:23:19 I haven't read it.
14:23:21 So I know Mario's is down the street two and a half
14:23:26 Same distance from the holiday knights.
14:23:36 Further down south you have a real problem.
14:23:37 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
14:23:39 There's only one establishment within a thousand feet,
14:23:41 and that's the super Mario's gas station.
14:23:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So there's what I have.
14:23:50 I have tried to -- a mine field here, and alcohol is a
14:23:59 very hard thing.
14:24:00 And I tell you what.
14:24:02 Once it's done it doesn't change.
14:24:03 It goes with the land.
14:24:04 I wish I had a way of saying you have got an alcohol
14:24:07 license but if it changes it goes dry.
14:24:10 And the legal department is yet to come up to figure
14:24:13 out a way of saying that that dried up because it
14:24:15 changed use.
14:24:17 So until we get to those days, this is what we have to
14:24:22 deal with.
14:24:22 Do I like it?
14:24:23 Absolutely not.
14:24:24 But if I could find out legislativewise, something in
14:24:28 Tallahassee that says, listen, you have the right to
14:24:30 do this, it's a grocery store, but if it changes use,
14:24:34 everything goes dry.
14:24:36 Then I think not only your neighborhood, any
14:24:38 neighborhood is certainly protected a thousand times
14:24:42 more than we have now.
14:24:43 Now businesses succeed.
14:24:45 I don't care if you're a bar, or if you're a small
14:24:49 grocery store, a barbershop.
14:24:53 But all these things that come up are very, very
14:24:57 Today we were talking about an airport.
14:24:59 Now we are talking about a grocery store.
14:25:03 So the changes in mind-set of not only this
14:25:08 government, of all governments, you have to keep with
14:25:11 it because it changes so quickly and so rapidly.
14:25:14 So I don't know what the answer is.
14:25:16 But I can't fault somebody or entice somebody to come
14:25:23 in and buy two pound of beans, filet mignon or piece
14:25:28 of salmon, and if that individual wants to take a
14:25:30 six-pack home -- because they are not drinking it
14:25:33 there. You can't drink this there.
14:25:35 You can't drink it in the parking lot supposedly.
14:25:38 I'm not going to say it's not going to happen.
14:25:39 But these are the things that I look at.
14:25:41 And I tell myself, what happens now?
14:25:53 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I'm sure that Mr. Suleiman is
14:25:59 where he's at because of his success add doing
14:26:02 business properly and if you go into some of your big
14:26:04 supermarkets the pictures that they showed here, it
14:26:07 looks like the big supermarkets.
14:26:08 You have cut meats, also?
14:26:13 You have fresh cut meat?
14:26:15 >>> Fresh cut meat and --
14:26:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Put your name on the record.
14:26:21 >> Hashim SULLAIMAN.
14:26:27 >> In looking at those pictures, I don't think we can
14:26:29 compare Ybor City with something like this gentleman
14:26:31 is opening up because there's no comparison at all.
14:26:34 Ybor City, I wasn't on this council, but they handed
14:26:37 out liquor license and beer licenses like there like
14:26:43 bubblegum to the kid.
14:26:44 I mean it's ridiculous.
14:26:45 It's a dangerous place and I'm sure he is not going to
14:26:49 have -- it's going to be a family environmental place
14:26:53 where the people in West Tampa, they want more
14:26:55 business in West Tampa.
14:26:56 This is your opportunity.
14:27:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Could Catherine Coyle come up and
14:27:02 show us a map where this property is located, where
14:27:06 the residential -- the 15 feet is located, and we have
14:27:12 the institutional uses like the City of Tampa park.
14:27:16 Which is 113 feet away on Columbus drive.
14:27:22 >>> The residential is immediately behind.
14:27:24 >> Could you point that out?
14:27:26 >>> It's these uses right behind it.
14:27:28 It's separated by an alley.
14:27:29 >> And do you know where the park is?
14:27:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Across the street from Columbus
14:27:39 drive and the corner of Albany and -- but I'm not
14:27:43 >>> I can respond to that if you like.
14:27:49 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It's not that far away on the
14:27:51 opposite side of the street.
14:27:54 >>> If I may.
14:28:00 This particular item, if you notice, this is 1912.
14:28:06 The staff notes the city park is 1901, 07 and 11 west
14:28:10 Columbus, which is immediately directly across the
14:28:14 As far as we could figure out it's just this little
14:28:16 strip, because there's really nothing else there.
14:28:20 We have been looking at this for days trying to figure
14:28:22 The street sign on the corner right here is 1900.
14:28:26 So we have to come to the conclusion it's just this
14:28:30 strip for some reason listed as parks in the city.
14:28:34 >>CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else in the public that
14:28:37 wants to speak on item 75?
14:28:38 No one else would like to speak?
14:28:44 >>> I'll keep it short.
14:28:47 First of a you all, Mrs. Williams, she has been very
14:28:52 She she's very nice.
14:28:54 She came to the store.
14:28:55 We spent quite a bit of time with her and we talked
14:28:57 with her extensively about what we could do to make
14:28:59 the situation easier for her, for her in that respect.
14:29:03 Quite frankly we could have partitioned the store and
14:29:05 come up with 126.
14:29:08 There's a lot of traffic in the store.
14:29:10 And there's a lot of families coming through.
14:29:14 You can see for the purposes of what's in the store.
14:29:16 But let me say just in summary very quickly that
14:29:20 Hashim has certainly proved himself to the city by his
14:29:23 past activities, current activities in the West Tampa
14:29:26 As indicated Mr. Turanchik indicate towed, he is the
14:29:32 kind of guy that West Tampa needs to have.
14:29:34 And he's out there working.
14:29:36 But in regard to the -- this is the last point -- I
14:29:39 think we are not trying to put the cart before the
14:29:43 Clearly, this is a site and store as Mr. Miranda said
14:29:46 that's already attracting the families, for the meat
14:29:49 market, for the fish.
14:29:52 The beer and wine is ancillary, secondary.
14:29:54 And I think that's pretty clear.
14:29:56 That's a point we try to impress upon you and we
14:29:58 appreciate your attention.
14:29:59 Thank you.
14:30:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Pressman, what are the current
14:30:03 hours of operation of the market?
14:30:22 Till ten in the evening and on the weekends?
14:30:28 You expect to continue the same hours even after you
14:30:30 get your wet zoning?
14:30:31 >>> Yes.
14:30:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Council members, I want West Tampa
14:30:41 to prosper.
14:30:41 I also want it to be protect.
14:30:43 We see in our staff reports that this is within 15
14:30:47 feet of a residential use.
14:30:48 I wonder if the petitioner, since you have already
14:30:50 made the investment in the store, would consider a
14:30:54 temporary, a conditional use for one year so we can
14:30:58 see what the impact of this would be on the
14:31:00 >>> That's something we discussed and I think that's
14:31:04 something that's perfectly acceptable, what kind of
14:31:06 operation is being run here.
14:31:10 >> I think that that could help us be more comfortable
14:31:14 in decision making.
14:31:15 So do I hear your request?
14:31:17 Because I think it has to come from you.
14:31:19 >>> Yes.
14:31:20 I would like to request for Hashim that we do a
14:31:24 one-year conditional approval.
14:31:25 I think that will work out beautiful.
14:31:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: How long has this store been
14:31:32 I pass it but I have never been in there.
14:31:35 I pass it all the time.
14:31:36 >>> Opened in January.
14:31:39 Almost a year.
14:31:40 One year.
14:31:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes, one year.
14:31:43 >> Move to close.
14:31:47 >> Second.
14:31:47 (Motion carried)
14:31:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I move to approve the conditional
14:31:53 use for one year.
14:31:57 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The appropriate motion would be to
14:31:58 direct legal to bring in an ordinance.
14:32:01 You can put it for the February 7th meeting if you
14:32:03 like with the public meeting being closed, first
14:32:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you for that eloquent
14:32:11 Kenyatta Walker statement.
14:32:12 That's my motion.
14:32:12 >> Second.
14:32:13 (Motion carried)
14:32:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Could the camera operator aim at
14:32:26 the podium for a second?
14:32:28 That hand yum young man in the green shirt is my New
14:32:31 Year's Eve few Daniel and he he's here with my brother
14:32:34 and his wife Laura and they are here from Philadelphia
14:32:37 and I want to welcome them and my brother is blushing,
14:32:40 I know.
14:32:47 >>CHAIRMAN: Welcome to Tampa.
14:32:48 >> MI welcome back.
14:32:50 My brother is a native.
14:32:51 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open item 76.
14:32:55 >> So moved.
14:32:55 >> Second.
14:32:56 (Motion carried)
14:32:58 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
14:32:59 Petition WZ 08-17, request for 2(COP) located at 243
14:33:10 East Davis Boulevard, beer and wine sales for on and
14:33:15 off site consumption.
14:33:17 This is related to a 1,120 square foot space.
14:33:23 It will contain -- the area to be wet zoned includes
14:33:30 1120 square feet will contain the shop, 868 square
14:33:33 feet, the surrounding outside area, 252, the
14:33:37 establishment will have 50 feet.
14:33:40 >> Used to be the hardware store.
14:33:42 >>> According to the picture, I believe studio
14:33:54 Just so you know, here is the Cuban cigars.
14:34:04 This is across the street.
14:34:06 And this is to the rear in the back.
14:34:09 You will note in the staff report that there are
14:34:11 several wet zonings within a thousand feet.
14:34:13 Three residential properties within a thousand feet.
14:34:16 And two within a thousand feet.
14:34:19 And as with the previous petition section 378.6 allows
14:34:23 to you grant the waivers when it's shown that it's
14:34:25 incidental to the primary use.
14:34:27 Staff has no objections.
14:34:33 >>> Officer Miller, City of Tampa police department.
14:34:37 City of Tampa police have no objection to this wet
14:34:40 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
14:34:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Are you aware of any objections
14:34:49 from the neighbors, the neighborhood, or civic
14:34:52 >>> No, sir.
14:34:53 >> Is anybody here in opposition?
14:34:55 >>CHAIRMAN: Hold it a second.
14:34:58 Put your name on the record for me please.
14:35:00 >>> Jonathan chateau and my father.
14:35:05 >> Is there anyone in the public to speak on item 76?
14:35:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Did you contact the civic
14:35:16 >>> Yes.
14:35:16 >> I think they get it automatically.
14:35:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
14:35:19 >> Second.
14:35:19 (Motion carried)
14:35:26 >> Move an ordinance making lawful the sale of alcohol
14:35:41 not more than 14% by weight and wines regardless of
14:35:45 alcohol content beer and wine 2(COP) for consumption
14:35:48 on premises and in sealed containers for consumption
14:35:51 off premises from that certain lot, plot or tract of
14:35:57 land located at 243 East Davis Boulevard, Tampa,
14:36:00 Florida, as more particularly described in section 2
14:36:03 hereof, waiving certain restrictions as to distance
14:36:06 based upon certain findings, providing for repeal of
14:36:10 all ordinances in conflict, providing an effective
14:36:12 >> We have a motion and second.
14:36:15 (Motion carried)
14:36:21 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I should announce that the
14:36:22 second reading of public hearing will be on Thursday,
14:36:24 February 7, 2008 at 9:30 a.m
14:36:31 >>CHAIRMAN: We need to open item 78.
14:36:38 >> So moved.
14:36:38 >> Second.
14:36:39 (Motion carried)
14:36:43 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
14:36:45 Petition WZ 08-25 request for a 2(APS) beer and wine
14:36:50 package sales located at 806 east Hillsborough Avenue.
14:36:56 The petition to sell beer and wine in conjunction with
14:37:00 a convenience store located in a one-story building.
14:37:03 The wet zone will contain 1101 square feet.
14:37:08 Sale of alcohol will be incidental to the primary
14:37:10 function, which is retail sales.
14:37:11 There is a mobile gas station, it's actually not
14:37:19 mobile any longer.
14:37:20 It changed names.
14:37:21 There's a gas station, residential property, and two
14:37:24 institutional uses within a thousand feet of the
14:37:28 notice previously under 378.6.
14:37:30 Council does have an ability to grant waivers if it's
14:37:33 shown that the sales are incidental to the primary
14:37:37 You will note that the site, that the northeast corner
14:37:40 of Miami Avenue and Hillsborough, this is in
14:37:44 northbound onramp to I-275.
14:37:46 This is Nebraska.
14:37:51 This is the site plan.
14:37:54 Of the property.
14:37:55 This being the one-story.
14:37:58 And I'll show you photos of the site.
14:38:05 The view into the storefront.
14:38:08 This is in the back to the north.
14:38:12 Ed and then this is basically across Hillsborough,
14:38:14 which is a church.
14:38:15 And this is 275.
14:38:21 I did receive a copy of a letter to the attention of
14:38:24 council members and was requested to put it in the
14:38:26 file, from Beverly Morrow.
14:38:28 She lives in southeast Seminole Heights and she is
14:38:31 opposed to the wet zoning.
14:38:41 Staff has no objections to the request.
14:38:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can I ask a question?
14:38:52 In the staff report, it says police calls for service.
14:38:57 There are 7 calls for service at this location.
14:38:59 Most of the calls were for vehicle calls and alarm
14:39:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Can you wait for him to come up?
14:39:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA:
14:39:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Sure.
14:39:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer Miller.
14:39:12 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police
14:39:15 I have been sworn.
14:39:18 In my report, Mrs. Saul-Sena, that is correct.
14:39:24 Also on my report the second page, there is some
14:39:26 opposition from the president of the homeowners
14:39:28 association which I spoke with.
14:39:30 And one of the officers of the Baptist church located
14:39:36 280 feet across the street from the petitioner.
14:39:38 Police department has no objection.
14:39:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No objection?
14:39:50 So the fact that they are right here --
14:39:57 >>> of the majority of the seven or eight calls,
14:40:03 intersection, the majority that goes on --
14:40:09 >> That's exactly the point.
14:40:12 Do you ever consider a correlation between selling
14:40:14 liquor and that exacerbating car crashes?
14:40:21 >>> Councilman, it is something you can consider, yes.
14:40:27 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Madam Chairman, that's just like
14:40:30 the petition we had for Busch Gardens, that there were
14:40:34 so many arrests on Busch Boulevard.
14:40:38 And half of these people probably come from the blue
14:40:40 martini that just happened to be caught by Busch
14:40:43 So you can't reflect that on that particular business.
14:40:45 I don't think it's fair.
14:40:49 >>CHAIRMAN: Petitioner.
14:40:50 >>> Luke Lirot, 2240 Belleair road, Clearwater,
14:40:54 Florida representing and representing Neil Yildirim.
14:41:06 I want to follow up.
14:41:07 I felt the criteria proving the use was incidental was
14:41:10 already set -- met in my discussion was city employees
14:41:15 and making sure that was established.
14:41:17 It is a gas station/convenience store.
14:41:19 I felt the next I shall to you prove to your
14:41:21 satisfaction to show justification for the waiver
14:41:23 would be that I think there's a tipping point, that is
14:41:27 certainly applicable to places of public assembly that
14:41:30 sell alcohol, but compatibility I think can be shown
14:41:32 by other gasoline, convenience stores in the area,
14:41:35 that also have the same commercial opportunity to sell
14:41:40 just beer and wine for off-premises consumption only.
14:41:43 And I think that one of the problems that you as
14:41:45 council face is that with the criteria that are
14:41:49 identified in the code section that allow to you grant
14:41:51 these variances, there really isn't any dramatic
14:41:54 distinction between a place of public assembly that
14:41:56 might be a thousand feet away from another place that
14:41:59 sells for off-premises couples, and situations such as
14:42:02 my client's.
14:42:04 So what I did is I actually looked at every
14:42:07 gasoline/convenience store in the area, on
14:42:10 Hillsborough Avenue, and I took some photographs.
14:42:13 I have some situations that I wanted to identify to
14:42:15 you that I think justify consideration of the waiver.
14:42:19 This is the Citco convenience store at the southwest
14:42:22 corner of Rome Avenue and Hillsborough Avenue.
14:42:25 And as you can see, it's a Citco station, what's
14:42:30 important about this particular use is that it is
14:42:33 right across the street catter-corner from the Bethel
14:42:37 Baptist church, which I think is interesting to note
14:42:40 because the alcohol sales that take place here, I went
14:42:43 in, I took a look at the facility, I actually saw one
14:42:46 of the things I could do, since I think this is the
14:42:49 fifth attempt that Mr. Yildirim has made, I took a
14:42:59 little trip at every other convenience store on
14:43:02 Hillsborough Avenue.
14:43:03 I know that in the code there's a specific allowance
14:43:06 for the measurement.
14:43:07 And what you do is you go by normal pedestrian travel.
14:43:11 In this situation, with later points I will make in my
14:43:17 presentation there are crosswalks going all four ways.
14:43:21 I talked yesterday with reverend Floyd from the church
14:43:23 across the street from the applicant.
14:43:25 And I said, I understand that you object to our
14:43:28 Is there anything specifically that you can identify
14:43:31 that I might be able to bring up with my client?
14:43:34 He said that we don't want people coming in to our
14:43:38 property, he would don't want empty beer bottles and
14:43:40 things like that.
14:43:42 I too took a look at this facility, again being almost
14:43:46 identical distance from my compliant, the applicant
14:43:48 here, and I didn't see a single beer bottle there.
14:43:51 So hopefully that reflection of the conscientious
14:43:56 nature of the consumers in this particular section.
14:43:58 The featured beer for this location will be Guinness.
14:44:02 Guinness has been around for about 500 years.
14:44:04 And one of the interesting things that I thought I
14:44:07 would bring up here is that an accomplishment not
14:44:11 unlike Mr Shelby is capable of, about a 9,000 lease at
14:44:11 45 pounds which is about 90 bucks per year.
14:44:20 I thought that was interesting relative to that.
14:44:23 So the sale of Guinness there. I did not consume
14:44:24 that. I thought I would save it for the next round.
14:44:28 The next location that I identified is the Circle K at
14:44:31 the southwest corner of Florida Avenue and
14:44:33 Hillsborough Avenue.
14:44:34 Again it's a gasoline/convenience store, and this is
14:44:37 getting closer in proximity to my client's
14:44:39 establishment as we head east on Hillsborough.
14:44:42 This location, there is a separate beer section, in
14:44:48 the middle of that store, that as you can see has an
14:44:52 ample supply, and since the entry to the store was in
14:44:55 Spanish I thought we would feature the beer Corona.
14:44:59 Corona has been around since 1925.
14:45:01 One of the things that I thought was interesting about
14:45:03 Corona is that oftentimes you might see those beers
14:45:07 ordered and they stick a lime in the top of that.
14:45:09 I could never figure out why that was.
14:45:10 Apparently there are some myths that need to be
14:45:13 dispelled relative to the lime in the Corona.
14:45:16 It's not used to plug the neck of the bottle to keep
14:45:19 flies and other insects out of the beer.
14:45:21 It's not used to clean the top of the bottle to make
14:45:23 sure it's sanitary. And it's not used to clean the
14:45:26 neck of the bottle from the remains of old bottle caps
14:45:29 back when they used steel.
14:45:31 Apparently it is designed primarily to enhance the
14:45:33 flavor of Corona.
14:45:36 I leave that for your edification.
14:45:38 Continuing east on Hillsborough Avenue, the next
14:45:40 location there, is the BP station and convenience
14:45:43 store on the southeast corner of north Central Avenue
14:45:45 and Hillsborough Avenue.
14:45:46 And as you can see, actually there is the steeple of
14:45:51 the Baptist church across the street from my client.
14:45:54 This again is a gas station with a full selection of
14:45:57 different beers.
14:45:57 I took another picture actually looking at the store
14:46:02 from a different perspective, and the interesting --
14:46:06 the beer featured for this establishment is Red
14:46:10 Stripe, which has been brewed in Jamaica since 1928.
14:46:14 Much to my surprise, apparently, the importation of
14:46:18 Red Stripe from Jamaica was halted because of fear of
14:46:20 marijuana smuggling in the late 80s but apparently
14:46:25 the customs department got control of that and we're
14:46:26 able to endure Red Stripe and its wonderful marketing
14:46:28 campaign here in this country.
14:46:30 >> Mr. Lirot, you don't have any personal experience
14:46:32 with any of these beers?
14:46:33 >>> No.
14:46:34 I'm a Budweiser drinker when I do drink.
14:46:37 I have been on the wagon for quite some time but it
14:46:39 was fun to reminisce.
14:46:41 The next station that we went to actually is beyond my
14:46:47 client's station, and this is the Shell station that's
14:46:49 actually on the northeast corner of Nebraska and
14:46:51 Hillsborough Avenue.
14:46:53 A gas station convenience store.
14:46:55 The reason that I think this is a critical point to
14:46:57 consider is that even though this particular location
14:47:01 is more distant from my client from the church, if you
14:47:06 look at this particular photograph, if you can measure
14:47:10 according to the code of the most direct path of
14:47:13 pedestrian travel, this is almost equal distance.
14:47:17 It's a little farther away.
14:47:18 There's really no way to get across Hillsborough
14:47:21 Avenue from my client's location across six lanes.
14:47:24 I think probably the best indication of how busy that
14:47:27 is how actually congested that area is again.
14:47:31 We heard testimony from the officer that there has
14:47:33 been a lot of accidents.
14:47:34 It's very busy and I think you take your life in your
14:47:37 hands if you cross that street.
14:47:38 I think it's unlikely.
14:47:39 The featured beer from the Shell station is Heineken.
14:47:43 Heineken is brewed in 40 breweries in 39 countries,
14:47:48 they have been around since 1868.
14:47:50 And apparently they are the most popular beer in the
14:47:54 world, much to the chagrin of their many competitors.
14:47:58 But the reason I bring this up is that traveling
14:48:01 further east on Hillsborough Avenue, there's another
14:48:04 Circle K at the corner of 15th street and
14:48:07 Hillsborough Avenue.
14:48:08 Also, a gasoline convenience store, the featured beer
14:48:13 there is Foster.
14:48:14 I think it was from Australia.
14:48:16 In my research I found out they actually brew Fosters
14:48:19 all over the world.
14:48:21 Miller brewing company brews Fosters and I found out
14:48:23 much to my surprise it's the most unpopular beer in
14:48:26 Australia. So contrary to their marketing campaign,
14:48:28 it's not as special as they would like to us think.
14:48:32 When you look at the subject property, obviously you
14:48:34 can see that it is a gas station convenience store,
14:48:37 and while it does again look like it's in close
14:48:42 proximity to the church, it is across six lanes of
14:48:45 Inside, I did not announce that I would be coming.
14:48:48 It is a convenience store but many times, obviously
14:48:52 some food items, but I think the primary source of
14:48:55 income is that of a gas station.
14:48:58 Now one of the things that I want to establish,
14:49:00 because like every other property on Hillsborough
14:49:02 Avenue, it is in close proximity to residential areas
14:49:05 to the rear of it.
14:49:08 They have people that have opened up a little side
14:49:12 business of cleaning cars.
14:49:13 They do an outstanding job from what I could tell.
14:49:16 But the reason I bring up this photograph is if you
14:49:18 look to the rear, there is, I would suggest, a
14:49:21 physical barrier of the wall, the cars, and other
14:49:24 areas where there are individuals back here working.
14:49:27 So I thought that would certainly be something to be
14:49:30 indicative of that physical barrier worth of -- worthy
14:49:33 of your consideration.
14:49:34 Then the last photograph I have is at the edge of the
14:49:39 facility, and a rare moment where it wasn't really
14:49:44 busy but to establish there is no crosswalk there.
14:49:47 So in order for the fears of the numbers of the church
14:49:49 of bottles or people going from the parking lot and
14:49:52 drinking, I would like to submit that that is highly
14:49:55 speculative but I would like to submit highly unlikely
14:49:59 that someone would go to a vast open cement parking
14:50:02 lot especially during the summer months in Florida,
14:50:05 take their life in their hand with whatever single
14:50:07 beers they may have purchased, run across and then sit
14:50:10 in the parking lot of the church to consume those
14:50:15 Obviously, this has been, I think, the fifth attempt.
14:50:19 I look at some of the other transcripts.
14:50:21 And I just wanted to note that in the last transcript,
14:50:24 which is dated August 25th of 2005, and I think in
14:50:29 that transcript, then councilwoman Ferlita identifies
14:50:33 it as the sixth attempt, in there, there's a lot of
14:50:36 observation that is were made by various council
14:50:39 I think Councilman White identified that in his
14:50:43 investigation of the business, Mr. Yildirim cleaned up
14:50:49 the business, it was very aesthetic, was well
14:50:53 I would like to quote from this transcript from
14:50:57 This business is a wonderful improvement to what the
14:50:59 neighborhood was N.my mind, he keeps coming and by the
14:51:03 same token he's doing more and more improvements to
14:51:06 the neighborhood each and every time that he's coming
14:51:08 in, note again noting the multiple tenacious effort
14:51:11 that Mr. Yildirim has made over the years.
14:51:18 Councilman Ferlita identifies the man has shown
14:51:23 improvement in the property.
14:51:24 (Bell sounds).
14:51:25 I think even councilman Dingfelder, you noted some of
14:51:27 the physical characteristics of the -- there are six
14:51:32 lanes and it would be highly unlikely that someone
14:51:34 would run across the street.
14:51:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Wrap it up.
14:51:38 Um come back for rebuttal.
14:51:40 Let's see if anybody wants to speak against.
14:51:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have one question.
14:51:46 It's been a little while.
14:51:48 What was the vote?
14:51:51 >>> I think it was 4-2.
14:51:53 And what I can tell from the record, there was a
14:51:55 suggestion of a conditional.
14:51:58 I don't know what happened to that.
14:52:00 There's no record.
14:52:03 I'll just quote for the record, we have a motion and a
14:52:07 Motion carried.
14:52:10 Harrison and Ferlita yes.
14:52:13 Those were the only Nay votes for the conditional.
14:52:16 I don't know why that didn't go through.
14:52:18 I would like to make that same offer.
14:52:20 I have no problems with a one-year conditional.
14:52:21 I think he's proven himself.
14:52:24 But I could not find any record where that was
14:52:26 actually acted on or whether there was a second
14:52:28 hearing where that came up again.
14:52:29 So that's an unanswered mystery.
14:52:34 >> It passed 4 to 2?
14:52:35 >> 4-2 conditional from this transcript.
14:52:38 I don't have anything beyond that I.didn't have the
14:52:39 opportunity to get any additional research so I don't
14:52:42 know if something changed in the interim.
14:52:43 But that was the end -- that was the end of the
14:52:47 >> Maybe it died at second reading.
14:52:49 >> It may well have.
14:52:50 But on August 25, 2005, that was the state of affairs.
14:52:55 Thank you.
14:52:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
14:52:56 wants to speak on item 78?
14:52:58 >>> Susan Long, president of the Old Seminole Heights
14:53:09 neighborhood association and I have been sworn.
14:53:13 Old Seminole Heights neighborhood association is
14:53:14 opposed to this wet zoning.
14:53:16 We have been from the beginning.
14:53:17 We still are.
14:53:19 We are buried in convenience stores, package stores,
14:53:26 and if it were up to us we would unwet zone some of
14:53:29 them that already exist but we don't have that say.
14:53:32 One of the issues is it's right across the street from
14:53:34 the church.
14:53:35 I have spoken to the church.
14:53:36 They have told us.
14:53:37 What they tell you I can't say.
14:53:40 But we have consistently been opposed to package,
14:53:46 additional out-the-door wet zoning on premises with
14:53:52 We are not opposed to.
14:53:53 But we have, given the history of Nebraska Avenue, and
14:53:55 the hard work we have gone through to reduce the
14:53:58 problems, we really would not like the increased
14:54:01 alcohol flow there any more than it already is.
14:54:03 Thank you.
14:54:08 >>> My name is Randy baron, 217 west Comanche Avenue.
14:54:13 I have been sworn.
14:54:13 I was the president of the Old Seminole Heights
14:54:15 neighborhood association during the four or five
14:54:18 previous attempts that this was wet zoning came before
14:54:22 For the same reasons that Susan just mentioned we were
14:54:24 opposed back then.
14:54:25 I want to thank Mr. Lirot for his education and
14:54:28 entertaining trip along Hillsborough Avenue but as you
14:54:31 can see from that, we are swimming in convenience
14:54:35 There are a lot of convenience stores there.
14:54:37 And unfortunately they don't usually sell Guinness,
14:54:42 they usually sell singles in plain paper bags and you
14:54:46 do find the bottles, and you do find the bags all over
14:54:50 the place.
14:54:50 I have spoken to previous pastors at that church.
14:54:54 They have had issues with people who sleep on their
14:54:58 I cannot tie this directly to purchase of alcohol but
14:55:03 usually where you find bottles and tabs and things of
14:55:07 that nature.
14:55:08 What we are trying to do is discourage APS zoning.
14:55:11 Old Seminole Heights is traditionally voted to have a
14:55:14 long-standing policy against APS sales and convenience
14:55:19 We have had bad luck with some of the wet zonings that
14:55:21 have happened that council has approved.
14:55:25 Sometimes the people move out.
14:55:26 And petitioner, at the time the wet zoning, as Mr.
14:55:31 Miranda has alluded to earlier -- I wish we could find
14:55:40 a way to solve that problem but we can't.
14:55:42 So all we can do is discourage additional wet zonings
14:55:45 in our neighborhood because they do attract crime,
14:55:50 The one wet zoning on 15th and Hillsborough that
14:55:54 was mentioned had a lot of calls for service.
14:55:57 And there are also a lot of calls for service on the
14:55:59 one at Hillsborough and Nebraska.
14:56:02 We have had worked very hard to clean up this
14:56:05 There has been prostitution and crime and drug sales
14:56:07 along there, and the citizens have gone together along
14:56:09 with the help of TPD and cleaned it up.
14:56:11 What we don't need is another location selling
14:56:16 Thank you.
14:56:19 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Question.
14:56:20 Mr. Baron, there haven't been complaints from other
14:56:26 stores, have there, officer Miller, the other place
14:56:28 that is sell beer and wine, whatever they are selling?
14:56:31 Any complaints from the other package stores in that
14:56:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Convenience stores.
14:56:40 >>> Officer Miller (off microphone).
14:56:47 >> Well, complaints.
14:56:48 Have you received complaints in the police department
14:56:50 from some of these neighboring stores that were in
14:56:52 that area?
14:56:56 >>> (off microphone)
14:57:02 >> I would like to ask the attorney a question.
14:57:04 Has the church in question here, have they sent any
14:57:07 written communication to this city in reference to
14:57:11 their opposition?
14:57:12 >>> None that I have received.
14:57:14 We have to defer to the city and police to comment on
14:57:19 The only document I got was from the homeowners
14:57:22 association that was identified at the beginning of
14:57:24 the presentation.
14:57:24 >> Mr. Barron talks about the people sleeping on the
14:57:28 steps of the church.
14:57:30 I looked out of my office here at 1:30 this afternoon
14:57:33 and there are three benches across the street with
14:57:36 homeless people sitting there, sleeping, covered up
14:57:38 with blankets.
14:57:40 >>> I think it's an unfortunate reflection of greater
14:57:44 economic trend.
14:57:45 If I could interject at this point --
14:57:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I just have one question for Mr.
14:57:51 Not exactly relevant.
14:57:53 Are you still --
14:57:58 >>> I'm a retired attorney licensed in the state of
14:58:00 New York.
14:58:01 >> Just a license though?
14:58:03 >>> I'm working on that license for reasons that were
14:58:05 contained in my application for the VRP.
14:58:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have a question.
14:58:13 Mr. Barron, looking at the map, I see that there are
14:58:15 residential uses up to the north of this location.
14:58:20 And according to Rebecca Kert, we need testimony on
14:58:27 the record about compatibility or lack of
14:58:29 compatibility of the proposed use, because the
14:58:35 petitioner is having to ask for a waiver because
14:58:39 there's residential property within 1,000 feet.
14:58:41 In fact, 100 feet away.
14:58:43 >>> In the past we have had neighbors immediately
14:58:45 adjacent to that location who have complained on
14:58:50 previous applications.
14:58:51 I have none right now for the record.
14:58:52 >> Do you think that this is a compatible proposed
14:58:58 >>> You know, in the previous six, we actually did not
14:59:03 I think it may have been the second or the third.
14:59:06 Mr. Yildirim came in and said he had cleaned up.
14:59:18 We were not in favor.
14:59:19 We just did not oppose.
14:59:20 Southeast Seminole Heights opposed.
14:59:22 The church opposed.
14:59:23 That wet zoning failed.
14:59:24 After that, that's when the -- first there was some
14:59:27 sort of repair on the side of the building and then it
14:59:30 got very messy.
14:59:31 And then the car wash came in there and we were
14:59:35 concerned about this extra business along the side.
14:59:38 And on the subsequent exam, the board voted not to
14:59:42 support the wet zoning.
14:59:43 I think that was number 4.
14:59:48 Mr. Lirot is correct, I think we are on number 6 now.
14:59:52 >> Is there a statute of limitations?
14:59:54 >>> I think every six months you can reapply.
14:59:56 And he has.
14:59:59 You know, it not so much that this particular
15:00:00 business -- that this petitioner is bad.
15:00:04 It's no, no nothing personal between our association
15:00:06 and this petitioner.
15:00:07 It's in a bad location for us.
15:00:09 It is right on the entrance to the interstate.
15:00:14 We have had issues with crime.
15:00:16 And I don't want -- tell Mr. Caetano we can directly
15:00:21 relate crime to this wet zoning.
15:00:23 There is some correlation especially of alcohol and
15:00:26 the crimes that occur up and down Nebraska Avenue.
15:00:29 We have worked very hard to clean that up.
15:00:31 What we don't need is yet another wet zoning.
15:00:34 We have enough of them already.
15:00:36 Mr. Lirot pointed them out to you.
15:00:39 So the board has been consistently opposed to this
15:00:43 except for that one.
15:00:45 The neighbors have been consistently opposed.
15:00:46 Other neighborhood association has been consistently
15:00:48 opposed, as has been the church.
15:00:51 The church did contact us, and expressed their
15:00:57 And I'm surprised they did not submit something in
15:00:59 writing or have somebody here.
15:01:03 >> We have a letter attached.
15:01:04 >> We didn't get a letter.
15:01:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me just state to the facts of
15:01:08 the merits of what I have heard.
15:01:13 When you are heading east on Hillsborough Avenue, to
15:01:18 make a turn north on the entrance to the expressway
15:01:22 without the alcohol, or with the alcohol being sold
15:01:25 there, you have minute second to make that turn.
15:01:29 Let me explain why.
15:01:30 When the light is green, heading west, you can't make
15:01:33 the turn.
15:01:37 As soon as that last car passes to make the turn,
15:01:40 guess. What a block and a half down it's turned green
15:01:42 arrow to make a west turn from Nebraska to
15:01:47 So therefore you have the accidents.
15:01:50 It has nothing to do with alcohol.
15:01:52 It has to do with the timing of the lights, and the
15:01:55 stupidity of the drivers who try to make a left-hand
15:01:57 turn when they see four cars on you.
15:02:02 I would have to be drugged, I guess, if I was to buy a
15:02:08 beer somewhere north of Hillsborough Avenue, to cross
15:02:12 six lanes to get to the property of the church.
15:02:15 There is no human being that -- not even Roadrunner
15:02:19 could make at cross there an and survive because the
15:02:22 traffic follows at a pretty high rate of speed.
15:02:25 I know that church very well.
15:02:28 One of the principals there many years ago was Stokes,
15:02:32 and Stokes was my junior high coach.
15:02:35 I should have listened to him and not gone into
15:02:38 politics, he said.
15:02:40 So I'm not sure if the building just to the east -- I
15:02:44 forgot if it's Nebraska or Florida Avenue is the
15:02:49 rental agency, enterprise rental agency.
15:02:54 And I know the area well.
15:02:58 Catter-corner, I think you have got catter-corner from
15:03:00 there, you have an auto parts store.
15:03:06 And here again, I fear more of a restaurateur who
15:03:16 comes in, you have two or three drinks and you leave
15:03:18 there drunk, than I do something like this.
15:03:20 Because there you are coming out drinking.
15:03:22 In this case, quote-unquote, you are not supposed to
15:03:25 open that thing when you are driving.
15:03:27 I'm not going to say you're not because I know some
15:03:29 people have a problem that they got to have some
15:03:33 All I got to have is clean air.
15:03:36 But that's the way life is.
15:03:37 I don't know what's going to happen here.
15:03:39 But I can tell you that with or without the alcohol,
15:03:44 you are going to continue to have the accidents.
15:03:47 And I don't think road run core cross that street to
15:03:50 get to the other side.
15:03:53 >>CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone else that wanted to speak
15:03:55 to item 78?
15:03:56 >>> I just want to add one thing that I didn't state
15:04:00 in my initial presentation, if I can just provide this
15:04:04 as rebuttal.
15:04:05 I know that the concerns are certainly well-founded on
15:04:10 the part of the people from the neighborhood
15:04:14 But I looked at the physical barriers between this
15:04:16 location that are vastly greater than any of the other
15:04:21 Knowing that there have been many attempts, I thought
15:04:24 I would make one offer to try to tip the scale.
15:04:26 In Florida they have what's known as the responsible
15:04:29 vendor act.
15:04:29 And it's a program that anybody that deals with the
15:04:33 sale of alcohol, whether on premises, off premises,
15:04:36 what have you, they actually provide training to the
15:04:39 clerks and the people that actually meet the people
15:04:43 face to face that are going to be consuming the
15:04:45 They go through extensive training about how to stop
15:04:47 fake IDs and just about every imaginable concern
15:04:50 that can come up.
15:04:51 And the State of Florida recognizing that that's an
15:04:53 additional expense, and does take some additional
15:04:56 If there is a problem, the guidelines that the
15:04:59 Division of Alcoholic Beverages imposes a penalty, or
15:05:02 significantly lesser for certified responsible
15:05:07 I contacted a gentleman gentle that I have worked with
15:05:10 in the other facilities, and John Gotto of regulatory
15:05:16 compliance services in Tallahassee, he said he would
15:05:18 be more than happy to work with Mr. Yildirim MI to
15:05:23 train his staff so they too can become certified
15:05:26 servers and that would give us an enhancement that
15:05:29 certainly we'll agree to a one-year conditional if
15:05:31 that meets with your approval but we'll also be happy
15:05:33 to do that as well.
15:05:34 I spoke with Mrs. Kert.
15:05:35 She and I don't know whether we can offer to include
15:05:38 that as a condition.
15:05:39 But to the extent that it's allowable under law, we'll
15:05:42 we are happy to do it because I think it would give
15:05:45 Mr. Yildrim an opportunity.
15:05:51 He just wants to be treated like everybody else.
15:05:53 I don't think it's going to tip the scale.
15:05:55 All this does is puts him on equal footing with
15:05:58 everyone else that has that feature.
15:06:00 And I am not suggesting they just sell beer but the
15:06:02 people that have a grocery list of everything else
15:06:04 they want in addition to gas, if they do want to add
15:06:07 beer to the bread and the eggs and the milk, and my
15:06:11 client have this but everybody else does, he will be
15:06:14 the one that's not on an equal competitive footing and
15:06:16 I think to me that goes to the compatibility issue.
15:06:19 I think that respectfully we have shown certainly
15:06:22 enough good faith and cooperation to justify at least
15:06:25 the one-year opportunity to prove ourselves in this
15:06:29 I certainly appreciate your time.
15:06:30 I would like the council to receive and file the
15:06:32 documents that I showed during my presentation, if I
15:06:37 >>CHAIRMAN: Give to the Mr. Shelby.
15:06:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Assuming that council might be
15:06:47 interested in granting a one-year conditional, there
15:06:51 was a reference also to the sale of singles, single
15:06:58 beer bottles or quarts, that sort of thing.
15:07:00 I think also something that is not necessarily good
15:07:05 for a neighborhood is when these types of stores sell
15:07:09 singles or quarts or what have you, obviously wine is
15:07:12 a different story, you know, but in regard to the
15:07:19 So I don't know how Ms. Kert feels about it but if
15:07:22 that might be something that you all would be amenable
15:07:25 to as well, I think that might go a long way toward
15:07:29 allaying my concerns.
15:07:31 You know, if you are driving up like many of the
15:07:33 customers are going to drive up, and buy a six-pack,
15:07:38 and Charley said, take it home, what have you --
15:07:41 But if you walk up and you have got a quart, you buy a
15:07:44 quart and you walk up and buy a single, you might have
15:07:46 a lot more opportunity to annoy the neighborhood to be
15:07:51 a hindrance to the neighborhood.
15:07:55 >>> Well, inasmuch as I bought singles at every store
15:07:58 I stopped at, maybe I could add a restriction on
15:08:00 singles to pedestrians.
15:08:01 >>> I don't know how would you ever possibly limit --
15:08:10 I'm just saying, it's hard enough to enforce the
15:08:14 singles part of it but I would say the pedestrian part
15:08:16 would be like virtual impossibility.
15:08:20 Because the guy working the register, he's working
15:08:22 fast, how does notice who drives up and walks up?
15:08:25 >>> You make a God point.
15:08:27 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
15:08:31 This issue came up before and it's my legal opinion
15:08:33 when you get into the issue of exactly how we are
15:08:35 going to regulate with the specific scales, it's not
15:08:39 something we should include in the ordinance.
15:08:41 >> But if they voluntarily want to include it on the
15:08:44 ordinance, I mean, wouldn't that --
15:08:48 >>> the problem with that is that is an issue that is
15:08:52 the state then it's an unlawful condition.
15:08:54 That can go away and therefore you are approving an
15:08:56 ordinance based on something that's not enforceable.
15:08:59 And that would be my concern.
15:09:00 The ordinance, the ordinance would not be enforceable.
15:09:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman and fellow council
15:09:10 members, I move to close.
15:09:13 >>> Well --
15:09:14 >> Okay, if we are not then --
15:09:18 >>CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second to close.
15:09:19 (Motion carried).
15:09:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
15:09:25 I move for disapproval based on the competent
15:09:28 substantial evidence from the neighborhood
15:09:29 organization that this proposed use is not compatible
15:09:33 with the residential uses located within 100 feet, and
15:09:39 the fact that council has previously -- are we allowed
15:09:43 to reference previous denials?
15:09:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe -- I would suggest that you
15:09:49 do it based on evidence in this particular record at
15:09:53 this particular hearing, that you can reference, that
15:09:56 would be relative to adverse impact.
15:09:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay.
15:10:00 And the concerns expressed by the church through the
15:10:03 police report, that they were concerned about adverse
15:10:13 >> Second.
15:10:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Got a motion and second.
15:10:15 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Discussion?
15:10:18 >>REBECCA KERT: Before you continue on the motion, you
15:10:20 are required to site the specific section.
15:10:21 And based upon Ms. Saul-Sena's motion, section 370-A,
15:10:29 2, 3, 4 and 6, that deals with the waivers and the
15:10:32 ability to deal with the waiver.
15:10:34 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: What police reports is Mrs.
15:10:37 Saul-Sena referring to?
15:10:38 >> It's located here.
15:10:41 >> 78 accidents?
15:10:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No.
15:10:44 Specifically the church, and the police officer told
15:10:49 us that the church had expressed concern --
15:10:56 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I don't think there was a report
15:10:58 from the church across the street because I asked that
15:11:01 question of the attorney and they did not get any
15:11:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I read something that said they
15:11:07 thought the pastor -- let me look for it.
15:11:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I would certainly vote against this
15:11:20 petition if this property was on the south side
15:11:25 adjacent to where I see the building next to the
15:11:28 parking lot of the church.
15:11:29 I can understand that, or behind the church as you
15:11:33 come up to exit where you come off the exit there on
15:11:37 the expressway.
15:11:39 This is not.
15:11:40 Although there has been reference, and referenced here
15:11:42 and the letter that we received from the association,.
15:11:45 About the 78 accidents.
15:11:48 That's happened without alcohol.
15:11:51 Are we saying we are going to have more?
15:11:53 I don't know.
15:11:54 Are we saying we are going to have less?
15:11:56 I don't know.
15:12:00 Those accidents, whether this is wet zoned or not, are
15:12:03 going to be there.
15:12:05 We just don't think -- we have a cell phone, somebody
15:12:09 is coming their hair, somebody is talking about their
15:12:12 kids going to school when they have got to pick them
15:12:14 up, they are late, they try to get in a hurry.
15:12:17 These are the things that happen in life not only in
15:12:19 this intersection, in many more.
15:12:23 And I haven't heard yet from the petitioner on their
15:12:26 request for what Mr. Dingfelder said regarding the
15:12:31 sales of the quart malt liquor whatever.
15:12:35 I haven't gotten their response yet.
15:12:37 Maybe it was said and I didn't hear it.
15:12:39 So I may ask the petitioner on what that --
15:12:46 >>> can I answer your question, sir?
15:12:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Not yet, sir.
15:12:50 We closed the public hearing.
15:12:51 We have to reopen.
15:12:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'll move to reopen to answer Mr.
15:12:58 Dingfelder's question that was never answered.
15:13:00 >> Second.
15:13:00 (Motion carried)
15:13:05 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: The question about the
15:13:05 independent sales?
15:13:10 >> Singles or quarts.
15:13:11 >> We have no problem with that as long as the council
15:13:14 reconsiders, there's no problem within that one year
15:13:17 conditional period.
15:13:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If I read that right there will be
15:13:20 no sales, period, of any quart size container of beer.
15:13:24 >>> No singles, no quarts is what I think Mr.
15:13:27 Dingfelder asked for and we would agree to that for
15:13:29 the conditional one-year period.
15:13:30 >> I didn't say, that you said that.
15:13:31 >>> I say that if it meets with your approval.
15:13:35 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: So a six pack somebody couldn't
15:13:38 buy one battle.
15:13:38 >>> Yes.
15:13:40 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I personally don't think that he
15:13:41 would should start restricting businesses on how they
15:13:44 are going to sell their products.
15:13:45 I don't think it's fair.
15:13:47 This gentleman has got to have employees there. I'm a
15:13:50 small businessman.
15:13:51 If somebody wants to come in and buy one can of
15:13:53 hairspray that's fine.
15:13:55 I sell it like that.
15:13:56 But I don't think it's right.
15:13:57 Now Charlie --
15:13:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Don't look at me for hairspray.
15:14:02 >>> I would be glad to sell you six and I'll give you
15:14:05 one free one.
15:14:05 I don't think it's right that we can restrict.
15:14:09 I could never support that.
15:14:12 I'll support the granting of the license, the one year
15:14:19 conditional, I'll support that.
15:14:21 >> At least it's not the size of the glass.
15:14:27 We are making progress.
15:14:28 >>> The condition about the specific sales, I don't
15:14:33 know exactly what that was, but I would suggest you
15:14:40 make the ordinance not severable to that condition.
15:14:44 My concern would be that if it was found that that
15:14:47 condition was granted by state law you would have an
15:14:49 ordinance in effect with an unenforceable condition.
15:14:54 You wouldn't be getting what you wanted.
15:14:56 What I would be suggesting to you is that if you would
15:14:58 like to put that condition forward that you include in
15:15:01 the ordinance that if that condition is found to be
15:15:04 unlawful and unenforceable, the ordinance as itself is
15:15:08 not enforceable.
15:15:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That means that you get it but you
15:15:14 don't get it.
15:15:16 >>CHAIRMAN: No need putting it in here.
15:15:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to close.
15:15:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
15:15:22 >>CHAIRMAN: Need to close the public hearing.
15:15:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The one thing I want to say to
15:15:31 Linda's motion which is still on the floor, Linda, you
15:15:33 said there are other businesses within a hundred feet.
15:15:35 >> No, residence.
15:15:36 >> oh, you meant residences?
15:15:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: But petitioner has to get a waiver.
15:15:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So you meant 100 --
15:15:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: And I was able to share with Mr.
15:15:47 Caetano, in the staff report, about the objections of
15:15:52 the church.
15:15:54 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: The minister never came to our
15:15:58 If he was going to come, he should have been here.
15:16:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, he spoke to the officer of
15:16:03 his objection. And we have been going on awhile.
15:16:06 The motion is for denial.
15:16:14 >> Second to close.
15:16:14 (Motion carried).
15:16:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to revive my previous
15:16:19 motion for denial with all the things that I cited
15:16:22 with Rebecca's specific citations, chapter and verse.
15:16:28 >>CHAIRMAN: No second?
15:16:30 It fails for lack of second.
15:16:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Did we have a second before?
15:16:37 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I move to grant the zoning --
15:16:43 with a condition of one year.
15:16:46 And Mr. Dingfelder, do you want to put that single
15:16:49 bottle phrase in there?
15:16:56 The gentleman said he could live with it.
15:16:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yeah, I think it would be a good
15:17:01 thing and healthy for the neighborhood and I'll do it
15:17:03 over the objections of counsel.
15:17:05 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: So that is with the one year
15:17:08 conditional and when he comes back we can he perhaps
15:17:11 wipe that out.
15:17:12 That's one part.
15:17:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'll second that, but if I remember
15:17:17 what the legal department says you have to add more to
15:17:19 that statement than what we just did.
15:17:21 Am I correct?
15:17:22 >>REBECCA KERT: Yes. My suggestion would be if you
15:17:25 are going to include that condition that you make the
15:17:28 ordinance nonseverable, and I can include that in the
15:17:31 language when I come back.
15:17:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Do you wish to have that provision so
15:17:38 it adds that protection, make it so it's not
15:17:48 severable? Is that your request?
15:17:48 If you put specific language in there, if that
15:17:49 provision that Mr. Dingfelder is suggesting that the
15:17:52 petitioner agreed to, if that's found to be
15:17:55 nonenforceable is they would lose their wet zoning and
15:17:57 have to come back.
15:17:58 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: No, I don't want to do that.
15:18:00 If that can't be enforceable, the one year would stay.
15:18:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You can't do that legally.
15:18:07 >>CHAIRMAN: Just do a one-year condition, leave that
15:18:10 out of there, is what he's saying.
15:18:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Maybe Ms. Kert can help.
15:18:16 The issue is that the legal department has offered the
15:18:19 opinion that if there is a provision in there that is
15:18:22 found to be unenforceable, say single package or quart
15:18:27 or whatever, that that is normally severed out of the
15:18:32 But the ordinance is still legally stands.
15:18:36 And Ms. Kert has suggested that if you want to add an
15:18:40 additional protection you can put the language in
15:18:42 there that says that if that provision, that condition
15:18:45 is found to be unenforceable, that they lose the wet
15:18:50 zoning and have to come back to City Council to apply.
15:18:53 In other words, if that provision is void, then the
15:18:56 whole ordinance and their wet zoning is void.
15:19:00 That's a suggestion.
15:19:00 Otherwise, if you don't put that language in there,
15:19:04 and in effect that provision is unenforceable, it just
15:19:08 then reverts to and becomes a one-year conditional wet
15:19:12 And that's the intent of the maker of the motion.
15:19:15 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Did we have a second on that
15:19:17 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes, Mr. Miranda.
15:19:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is it your intent if that provision
15:19:20 of the single usage is unenforceable that I it just
15:19:23 reverts to a single one-year conditional wet zoning,
15:19:26 or they lose the wet zoning?
15:19:29 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Remove the single clause from
15:19:31 there and leave a one-year conditional.
15:19:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You will get the same thing if you
15:19:42 want if you leave it the way it is, with the caveat
15:19:45 that if the state alcohol department does not agree
15:19:49 with the conversation that we have had today within
15:19:52 this zoning, then it would go back to a one-year
15:19:56 conditional, period.
15:19:58 So they would get what they want, the one year
15:20:01 However, we are trying to impose an additional
15:20:04 condition that we don't know if it's going to fly or
15:20:07 So, in other words, it's not that -- if the liquor
15:20:11 department of the state alcohol beverage department
15:20:13 says you can't do this, it doesn't stop there.
15:20:18 It says you can't do this.
15:20:20 But you have a one-year conditional with the quart
15:20:24 bottle, whatever you want to call it.
15:20:29 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't know how else to explain
15:20:33 >> He mentioned would you lose the wet zoning.
15:20:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: As the maker of the motion is it your
15:20:38 intent if that provision about the single use is
15:20:41 unenforceable, do you want the single -- the one-year
15:20:46 conditional to remain?
15:20:47 Or do you want them to lose the wet zoning?
15:20:50 >>> I want the one year to remain, enforceable as a
15:20:54 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of that --
15:20:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to speak to the.
15:20:59 You guys, Seminole Heights has worked sew so hard to
15:21:03 clean up their act.
15:21:04 We have seen hundreds of individual property owners
15:21:07 reinvest in their property.
15:21:08 They have had marches down their streets to get rid of
15:21:11 the prostitution.
15:21:13 They have done so many things to clone things up.
15:21:15 They have come down five previous times to oppose
15:21:19 This is not what they need to see in their
15:21:23 It's in a very dangerous location.
15:21:24 And I urge you to listen to the homeowners'
15:21:28 representative and vote against this.
15:21:30 And I bet the preacher would have heard this if we
15:21:33 heard it at ten and not three in the afternoon.
15:21:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, I am not going to support the
15:21:39 One of the reasons, the concern I have is the church,
15:21:42 and I heard the pastor of the church is not in support
15:21:45 of that.
15:21:51 If we weren't grant ago waiver I would have no
15:21:54 Because the church is there, asking for a waiver, I
15:21:56 can't support it.
15:21:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: One last time.
15:21:58 All those marches, I wasn't in every one of them but I
15:22:01 marched with Seminole Heights to 1:00, 2:00 in the
15:22:05 morning especially when they had the house there where
15:22:07 could you swatch singles and do what you wanted to do.
15:22:09 I was there.
15:22:10 I also -- no, not in the house.
15:22:13 [ Laughter ]
15:22:15 I was marching outside the house.
15:22:22 I'm telling you, Mr. Scott, you are going to get me in
15:22:25 [ Laughter ]
15:22:26 Also, let me say that -- this is just me personally --
15:22:30 I voted for sangria.
15:22:33 That's a wonderful place.
15:22:34 I guarantee they sell more alcohol at sangria than
15:22:38 they will at this station.
15:22:39 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion.
15:22:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I already spoke to the motion.
15:22:46 I clarified, within a thousand feet.
15:22:50 Those all.
15:22:50 Linda, what I would say is this.
15:22:52 I think I voted against this in the past.
15:22:54 I probably voted for it in the past.
15:22:56 So many times.
15:22:57 But I think about Dale Mabry.
15:22:59 Dale Mabry goes through my district and it goes
15:23:02 through some of the most expensive and nicest parts of
15:23:06 In regard to hide high prices -- I'm just saying in
15:23:12 terms of high priced houses.
15:23:14 And there are gas stations, and other convenience
15:23:18 stores up and down Dale Mabry that sale package
15:23:21 It's just a fact.
15:23:23 Kennedy is the same way.
15:23:24 And Kennedy goes through Beach Park, and through some
15:23:26 of the most expensive parts of town.
15:23:28 So I think Seminole Heights is coming back.
15:23:32 I don't think that granting this little package store
15:23:36 for a one-you're conditional these not going to sell
15:23:39 singles or quarts is going to hurt the neighborhood.
15:23:41 So I'm going to support.
15:23:44 >>GWEN MILLER: Clarification for the maker of the
15:23:46 motion, sir.
15:23:47 Is it your intention to direct legal to prepare that
15:23:49 ordinance that has the one-year conditional and the
15:23:52 single package and come back next week on -- excuse
15:23:56 me, on February 7th with that ordinance which
15:23:58 is -- they need time to prepare the ordinance.
15:24:01 >> If we have the one year conditional.
15:24:03 So it will come back at the next meeting.
15:24:04 >> Yes.
15:24:05 Is that your intention?
15:24:06 >>GWEN MILLER: You have to make it on February
15:24:09 We got a motion and second.
15:24:10 All in favor of that motion say Aye.
15:24:12 Opposed, Nay.
15:24:17 >>THE CLERK: Saul-Sena no and Scott no.
15:24:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I don't believe that number 77 has
15:24:21 been removed from the agenda by motion.
15:24:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Didn't we do that this morning?
15:24:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to remove 77 by motion.
15:24:30 (Motion carried).
15:24:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Open 779.
15:24:33 >> Second.
15:24:34 (Motion carried)
15:24:52 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
15:24:54 Case WZ 08-26 is for a 2(COP-R), beer and wine sales,
15:25:00 in relation to a restaurant at 8502 North Armenia
15:25:04 Avenue, units 1-A and 1-B.
15:25:07 You will note that the wet zoning contains 2421 square
15:25:12 The restaurant is located in a single-story strip
15:25:15 center, the establishment will have the minimum of 20
15:25:17 feet and alcohol sales are incidental to the primary
15:25:19 use being that it's a restaurant.
15:25:25 There are several wet zonings within a thousand feet.
15:25:31 One apartment complex within a thousand feet.
15:25:33 And one institutional use within a thousand feet.
15:25:36 As noted in previous descriptions under 378-6, you do
15:25:40 have the ability to grant those waivers.
15:25:46 If found to be incidental.
15:25:47 To give you the area where you are.
15:25:49 For those of you that are familiar with the corner of
15:25:51 Watters and Armenia, this is the Winn-Dixie shopping
15:25:56 This is the shopping center north on Armenia.
15:26:00 The apartment complex is across the street.
15:26:09 It appears to be an Asian restaurant.
15:26:15 There are pictures of the shopping center.
15:26:17 Has staff has no objections to the request.
15:26:23 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police
15:26:26 Police department has no objection to this wet zone.
15:26:28 I want to clarify my report.
15:26:30 There are a high volume number of calls in the strip
15:26:35 In all fairness to the petitioner, these calls are
15:26:38 related (indiscernible) --
15:26:44 >> Petitioner.
15:26:46 >> I'm Kris Fernandez. My address is 104 south
15:26:52 Fremont Avenue.
15:26:52 And I have standing with me Peter Chen, the owner of
15:26:56 the company.
15:26:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Let me see if there's anyone in
15:27:00 Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak on
15:27:03 item 79?
15:27:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to close.
15:27:06 >> Second.
15:27:06 (Motion carried).
15:27:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Great job, Peter.
15:27:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Move an ordinance making lawful the
15:27:19 sale of beverages containing alcohol of more than 1%
15:27:22 by weight and not more than 14% by weight and wine
15:27:25 with alcoholic content beer and wine 2(COP-R) for
15:27:28 consumption on the premises only in connection with a
15:27:31 restaurant business establishment on that certain lot,
15:27:34 plot or tract of land located at 8502 North Armenia
15:27:38 Avenue, unit 1-A and 1-B, Tampa, Florida as more
15:27:42 particularly described in section 2 hereof waiving
15:27:44 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
15:27:46 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
15:27:49 conflict, providing an effective date.
15:27:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll second it.
15:27:54 I just have one comment.
15:27:55 Mr. Fernandez, in all seriousness, make sure he's well
15:27:58 aware of the reporting requirements which I think are
15:28:01 every, what, six months, Cathy?
15:28:03 Because sometimes people who are new to the to this
15:28:07 type of license don't get in their reports and then
15:28:09 they get penalized, et cetera.
15:28:12 >>CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and second.
15:28:13 (Motion carried)
15:28:18 >>THE CLERK: Second reading on February 7th at
15:28:20 9:30 in the morning.
15:28:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to open number 80.
15:28:24 >> So moved.
15:28:25 >> Second.
15:28:25 (Motion carried).
15:28:26 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
15:28:31 Case WZ 08-27 is a request for a 4(COP), beer, wine
15:28:37 and liquor sales, consumption on premises and off
15:28:40 located at 516 North Tampa Street, zoning district
15:28:47 The site contains 1900 square feet. The establishment
15:28:51 will be located on the first floor only of a 3-story
15:28:54 Petitioner would like to use the 4(COP) license to
15:28:56 sell alcohol to be used in consumption off premises
15:28:59 for the catering business, no package sales from the
15:29:03 The sale of alcohol will be incidental.
15:29:05 The primary function of the business.
15:29:08 It's listed in the application that it is a restaurant
15:29:10 with catering.
15:29:12 You will note in the report there are several wet
15:29:14 zoned properties within a thousand feet, institutional
15:29:17 uses, and no residential uses within a thousand feet.
15:29:21 You will note on page 2, three, four and five of the
15:29:24 staff report, the conditions for approval in downtown
15:29:28 Tampa that relate to additional security, noise and
15:29:32 sound limitations, and the revocation for this
15:29:39 entertainment district.
15:29:40 I will note, the request from the petitioner, they
15:29:44 handwrote it, said he would like to self-impose a
15:29:47 condition that 4 dop cop will only be used in for off
15:29:51 premises, no package sales from the location.
15:29:53 I would like them to clarify for the record exactly
15:29:55 what their true intent is because they are saying it's
15:29:58 a restaurant with catering.
15:30:00 So the way that it's written, I'm not seeing that they
15:30:03 want on premises consumption in relation to the
15:30:06 restaurant so I would like them to clarify just to be
15:30:08 sure that they are not taking away all of the alcohol
15:30:12 sales, that they actually wanted to achieve.
15:30:15 You will note that this is mid-block, Tampa and
15:30:23 It is one unit within the three-story building.
15:30:30 It was the old American.
15:30:36 And here's a bigger picture.
15:30:38 >>CHAIRMAN: Do you have a question?
15:30:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
15:30:47 She clarified.
15:30:48 It's next to MOXI.
15:30:50 >>> Don Miller, City of Tampa police.
15:30:52 Police department has no objection with the petition.
15:30:55 >>CHAIRMAN: Petitioner?
15:30:57 >>> My name is --
15:31:06 >>CHAIRMAN: Is it catering or a restaurant?
15:31:11 >>> It is a restaurant.
15:31:12 We would like to cater off-site.
15:31:14 That's why we would like to be able to provide alcohol
15:31:17 So we do wish to provide alcohol on premises.
15:31:22 >> How many girls in Goody girls?
15:31:25 How many?
15:31:25 >>> Two.
15:31:26 >> Is there anyone in the public that wants to speak
15:31:29 on item number 80?
15:31:31 >> Move to close.
15:31:32 >> Second.
15:31:32 (Motion carried).
15:31:33 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I have a question.
15:31:39 I don't know whether the young ladies could answer me.
15:31:42 Maybe somebody here.
15:31:42 When they sell alcohol like that, as a caterer --
15:31:49 >>CHAIRMAN: Catering is separate.
15:31:51 It's a restaurant.
15:31:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: So they will take the alcohol --
15:31:55 >>GWEN MILLER: No, that's to go.
15:31:56 >> Oh, that's to go.
15:31:58 >> But also as a restaurant.
15:31:59 >>CHAIRMAN: They don't indicator liquor.
15:32:04 >> Indicator liquor, too?
15:32:06 >> Yes.
15:32:09 We don't want to sell --
15:32:11 >> When you cater, are you going to take liquor with
15:32:13 the catering?
15:32:14 >>> Yes.
15:32:20 And they would be for private parties.
15:32:21 >> Oh, private parties.
15:32:23 All right.
15:32:26 But we definitely do want to clarify, on-site
15:32:35 consumption of alcohol.
15:32:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Ms. Coyle,
15:32:39 I guess they clarified your question.
15:32:43 That would make sense as to why they are going 4(COP)
15:32:46 as opposed to 4(COP-R) or X.
15:32:49 Is 4(COP) the appropriate designation?
15:32:53 >>CATHERINE COYLE: That's actually the concern that
15:32:55 Ms. Kert and I are having.
15:32:57 They are going to sell from the site of the restaurant
15:32:58 which is an R classification.
15:33:01 They would have a separate catering license.
15:33:04 We need to figure this out, which is exactly exempt
15:33:07 from the way we do things.
15:33:08 You don't actually have to have a wet zoning to be a
15:33:12 The point of sale is at the site.
15:33:15 I think we need to think about that.
15:33:17 We just saw the condition.
15:33:19 >>CHAIRMAN: Do you need to continue it then?
15:33:20 >>> Even if they added a condition you would have to
15:33:23 direct legal to redo the ordinance anyway.
15:33:25 There may be enough time to figure out what the --
15:33:28 with the petitioner exactly what it is they are trying
15:33:30 to achieve.
15:33:30 Because I don't want to necessarily impose a condition
15:33:33 that's going to restrict them either against
15:33:35 something --
15:33:38 >>GWEN MILLER: So you are saying we can't do the first
15:33:39 reading today?
15:33:40 >>REBECCA KERT: Maybe what I could propose is Ms.
15:33:45 Coyle and I work with the applicant to find out what
15:33:47 it is exactly they are looking for and then when we
15:33:49 come back on first reading.
15:33:50 You don't have to accept it at that time.
15:33:52 But right now, we don't have a full understanding what
15:33:54 they are asking for.
15:33:55 They are asking for a 4(COP) and yet they want no
15:33:58 package sales from the site.
15:33:59 So yipe not sure a 4(COP) is exactly what they are
15:34:04 looking for.
15:34:05 >>GWEN MILLER: We can continue.
15:34:08 Or reopen the public hearing.
15:34:10 >>REBECCA KERT: I think reopen the public hearing.
15:34:13 >> Move to reopen the public hearing.
15:34:14 >> Second.
15:34:15 >> How much time do you need?
15:34:19 >>> Two weeks.
15:34:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to continue for two weeks.
15:34:22 >> Second.
15:34:23 (Motion carried)
15:34:26 >>CHAIRMAN: Item number 81.
15:34:27 We need to open.
15:34:29 >> We need to open 81.
15:34:31 >> Second.
15:34:31 (Motion carried)
15:34:49 >>CATHERINE COYLE: WZ 08-30.
15:34:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: 81, yes.
15:34:56 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Thank you.
15:35:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You ladies are going to meet with
15:35:08 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We'll call her tomorrow and try to
15:35:23 set up a meeting with Ms. Kert and myself.
15:35:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have to leave in five minutes.
15:35:40 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I'm sorry.
15:35:42 She had a couple questions.
15:35:42 I apologize.
15:35:48 Case WZ 08-30, request for a 2(COP-R), beer and wine
15:35:53 sales in relation to a restaurant at 1239 East Kennedy
15:35:59 I wrote in the staff report that the proposed wet
15:36:00 zoning contains 3,520 square feet of which 2,000 are
15:36:07 located outside.
15:36:07 The establishment will have 30 seats total, 20 of
15:36:07 which are outside.
15:36:11 Sale of alcohol will be incidental to the primary
15:36:13 function of the business which is a convenience store
15:36:15 and restaurant.
15:36:18 This is actually connected to -- it is the BP gas
15:36:25 station in the Channel District.
15:36:34 And what they are doing is opening the small
15:36:37 restaurant that's actually connected to the gas
15:36:39 You will note that there is the BP gas station,
15:36:44 condominiums, and port authority, institutional uses
15:36:47 within a thousand feet.
15:36:48 Do you have under 378-6 the ability to grant waivers
15:36:52 for the separation criteria. Please note that
15:36:54 ordinance 93-83 which is from 1993 granted the 2(APS)
15:37:00 wet zoning for 960 square feet to the BP gas station.
15:37:05 Just to show you the picture, from the front of the
15:37:10 This is the patio in the back.
15:37:14 This is the side view.
15:37:16 This is the gas station.
15:37:18 They created this pleasant outdoor setting -- seating
15:37:22 Staff has no objection.
15:37:24 >>>Overs Don Miller, City of Tampa police department.
15:37:29 Petitioner has no objections to this wet zoning.
15:37:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
15:37:32 >>> Joseph Diaz. I have been sworn in.
15:37:38 My office is at 2522 West Kennedy Boulevard.
15:37:42 Council, I don't believe there's anyone in opposition.
15:37:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Is there anyone in the public that
15:37:47 wants to speak on item 81?
15:37:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
15:37:50 >> Second.
15:37:50 (Motion carried)
15:37:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move an ordinance making lawful the
15:38:00 sale of beverages containing alcohol of more than 1%
15:38:02 by weight not more than 14% by weight and wines
15:38:05 regardless of alcoholic content beer and wine 2(COP-R)
15:38:08 for consumption on premises only in connection with a
15:38:10 restaurant business establishment on that certain lot
15:38:13 plot or tract of land located at 1239 East Kennedy
15:38:15 Boulevard Tampa, Florida as more particularly
15:38:17 described in section 2 hereof waiving certain
15:38:19 restrictions as to distance based upon certain
15:38:21 findings providing for repeal of ordinances in
15:38:23 conflict providing an effective date.
15:38:25 >>CHAIRMAN: I have a motion and second.
15:38:26 (Motion carried)
15:38:27 We need to open item 83.
15:38:31 >>> Please note the second reading public hearing will
15:38:33 be Thursday, February 7 at 9:30.
15:38:37 >> Move to open 82.
15:38:43 >> Second.
15:38:44 (Motion carried).
15:38:44 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
15:38:57 WZ 08-32 located at 4422 north Hubert Avenue,
15:39:03 requesting a 2(COP-R). Beer and wine sales in
15:39:07 conjunction with a restaurant.
15:39:08 The wet zoning will contain 2,087 square feet of which
15:39:11 1915 square feet will be located in the one-story
15:39:15 The establishment will have 48 seats.
15:39:18 36 of them will be inside.
15:39:20 There is an outdoor seating area.
15:39:22 Sale of alcohol will be incidental to the primary
15:39:24 function of the business which is a restaurant.
15:39:26 Current zoning district is IG.
15:39:34 There are three wet zoned property, no residential.
15:39:38 370 A-6 gives the council the ability to waive those
15:39:43 distance separations.
15:39:44 You will note that the site is within the Drew Park
15:39:50 It is located -- located one lot in from the southwest
15:39:54 corner of Hubert and ALBA.
15:39:57 I do have some photos of the site.
15:39:59 It appears that it may be under [ INAUDIBLE ]
15:40:15 Across the street is a business called the playhouse
15:40:18 theater and the --
15:40:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Off Broadway, isn't it?
15:40:25 >>> Way off.
15:40:26 [ Laughter ]
15:40:27 Staff has no objections.
15:40:35 >>> Don Miller, City of Tampa police department.
15:40:37 We have no objections.
15:40:41 >>> Steve Demith, 101 Sands Point Drive, Tierra Verde,
15:40:50 >>CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone to speak to item number
15:40:55 >> Move to close.
15:40:56 >> Second.
15:40:57 (Motion carried).
15:40:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move an ordinance making lawful the
15:41:03 sale of beverage containing alcohol by more than 1% by
15:41:07 weight not more than 14% by weight and wines
15:41:10 regardless of alcoholic content bore and wine 2(COP-R)
15:41:12 for consumption on the premises only in connection
15:41:14 with a restaurant business establishment certain lot
15:41:17 plot or tract of land located at 4422 north Hubert
15:41:20 Avenue, Tampa, Florida, more particularly described in
15:41:22 section 2 therefore, waiving certain restrictions as
15:41:25 to distance based upon certain findings providing for
15:41:28 repeal of all ordinances in conflict providing an
15:41:30 effective date.
15:41:30 >> I have a motion and second.
15:41:31 (Motion carried).
15:41:32 >>> Second reading will be February 7th.
15:41:50 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open 84.
15:41:54 >> Second.
15:42:00 (Motion carried).
15:42:01 Move to allow to withdraw the petition.
15:42:02 >> Second.
15:42:03 (Motion carried)
15:42:03 >>GWEN MILLER: 85.
15:42:23 Who is doing that?
15:42:24 >> According to the agenda, the legal department is
15:42:25 presenting the substitute ordinance.
15:42:28 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you have it?
15:42:31 >>THE CLERK: I actually have two ordinances.
15:42:36 >> Okay.
15:42:41 Wells Fargo.
15:42:45 >> I have an issue to address.
15:42:51 >>JULIA COLE: I will let you know that you have
15:42:53 received two separate ordinances.
15:42:55 One does remove the center lot.
15:43:00 He indicated to me this has now changed hands several
15:43:03 times, several different banks.
15:43:04 He was unable to identify their correct entity in
15:43:07 order to obtain the affidavit.
15:43:09 So your options are to either deny what's in front of
15:43:14 you with all throw lots, or you could go ahead and you
15:43:20 can't approve all three lots because you don't have an
15:43:22 affidavit relating to the center lot.
15:43:23 So then would you be using the ordinance which would
15:43:25 allow to you move forward and approve with the pro two
15:43:28 lots, A and C.
15:43:32 >>GWEN MILLER: So we do A and C.
15:43:40 Motion to close.
15:43:53 (Motion carried)
15:43:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My motion for denial is -- I think
15:44:11 it's 72% of the lots are 60 feet or greater.
15:44:14 This is not compatible.
15:44:19 We have heard from the neighborhood association that
15:44:21 they think this is not a compatible and consistent
15:44:24 with the pattern of development and therefore I move
15:44:26 for denial.
15:44:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you want to cite an ordinance,
15:44:34 >>JULIA COLE: If you can hold one moment because I
15:44:35 understand that Mr. Wynn has additional testimony on
15:44:42 that point and given the fact that this has been
15:44:44 introduced, would recommend that you go ahead --
15:44:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to reopen.
15:44:48 >> Second.
15:44:48 (Motion carried)
15:44:52 >> Derrick Wynn.
15:44:55 Right here, I have a list that I want to show you --
15:45:06 >> Lay it on the overhead.
15:45:08 We can see it.
15:45:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Turn it all the way around.
15:45:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Move it over.
15:45:21 >>> I would like to let you know how many 50-foot lots
15:45:29 we have, houses on 50-foot lots.
15:45:31 And we also have 60-foot lots also.
15:45:36 Last time I was here, we thought there was no 60-foot
15:45:41 lots on this street.
15:45:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So these ones that you are looking
15:45:46 at, there's like five of them? 18, 19 and 20 are 50
15:45:50 by 121.
15:45:51 >>> Yes.
15:46:03 >> What's the address of the property we are talking
15:46:06 >>> The address we have --
15:46:08 >> Don't move that.
15:46:09 Just leave it up there.
15:46:10 What's the address?
15:46:12 >>> 8315 is Wells Fargo bank.
15:46:16 They own that.
15:46:17 And those 8315.
15:46:19 I'm on the east side.
15:46:23 >> We only listed three blocks the other day, the
15:46:26 staff report only includes three blocks.
15:46:31 >>CHAIRMAN: A, B and C.
15:46:32 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Not three lots, three blocks.
15:46:35 I think the 8200 block, 8300 block, 8400 block.
15:46:39 But you have gone into the 86 and 87.
15:46:45 >>> Once you get to that cut-off, this is like it's
15:46:49 like four houses down from me.
15:46:52 >> And that's the 8313?
15:46:54 >>> Yes.
15:46:59 It's like seven houses down.
15:47:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to ask Catherine Coyle
15:47:09 to put up the maps that we have when we got the
15:47:13 original staff report that show the percentage, the
15:47:18 map that shows the percentage of performance.
15:47:21 Red means conform meaning 60 feet.
15:47:24 Blue means nonconforming.
15:47:26 And I believe there were 72% that are conforming and
15:47:31 28% that are nonconforming.
15:47:33 But Ms. Coyle, could you point out where the
15:47:38 petition -- to the north of them, to the south of
15:47:46 There's a lot of conforming lots.
15:47:48 And I feel one of our chief considerations is for
15:47:54 compatibility within the neighborhood context.
15:47:58 Obviously, the overwhelming pattern here is for RS-60
15:48:07 And I feel what's being asked for does not conform to
15:48:09 the neighborhood.
15:48:10 And I would like to --
15:48:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Linda, I think from a due process
15:48:17 perspective he needs to finish his presentation.
15:48:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay.
15:48:21 >>> Last time we had pictures of compatibility of the
15:48:24 houses showing that this would improve the
15:48:29 Also, we have a couple across the street who --
15:48:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I thought we dealt with this last
15:48:41 time, we asked to go back and bring back an ordinance,
15:48:46 on the motion that we try to pass or he bring back a
15:48:49 Why are we going back over this?
15:48:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Because when a motion to deny.
15:48:55 So legal said then he deserve as right to be heard.
15:49:01 >>> I don't need to be heard.
15:49:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's your opportunity.
15:49:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The motion made is on the premise that
15:49:07 he go back and get a letter from Wells Fargo.
15:49:10 Do we have a letter from Wells Fargo?
15:49:15 Excuse me, sir, we have a motion with a new ordinance
15:49:18 that would exclude the Wells Fargo property.
15:49:22 Isn't that what we did?
15:49:24 Then why are we dealing with this other stuff?
15:49:26 >>GWEN MILLER: I don't know.
15:49:26 We need to close the public hearing.
15:49:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You don't want to speak anymore,
15:49:31 just for the record?
15:49:32 >>> No, sir.
15:49:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Close the public hearing.
15:49:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: May I ask legal, I --
15:49:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I wasn't here at the last one.
15:49:41 There is no lot.
15:49:43 I guess the lot in the is a Wells Fargo lot.
15:49:47 So then there's two lots.
15:49:48 One on either side?
15:49:49 >>> Correct.
15:49:50 >> Those are 50-foot lots?
15:49:51 >>> Correct.
15:49:52 >> Is it legal to build a home on 0-foot lots in that
15:49:56 >>> No.
15:49:58 Not without your approval, no.
15:49:59 >> Yeah, I know, I'm not asking the petitioner.
15:50:03 I understand, but there is some lots that back up to
15:50:08 this gentleman's property, 0-foot lots, they are blue?
15:50:12 >>> Yes.
15:50:14 >>> We meet all the requirements.
15:50:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: All right.
15:50:17 Thank you.
15:50:17 I move to close the public hearing.
15:50:18 >> Second.
15:50:19 (Motion carried)
15:50:29 >>JULIA COLE: Where I understand we are at your last
15:50:31 measuring on the hearing on the issue after hearing
15:50:33 evidence and testimony there was a motion made to
15:50:35 direct legal to bring back two ordinances, given there
15:50:38 was some confusion about the state -- that has
15:50:42 What occurred subsequent to that is that issue, close
15:50:46 the public hearing, Ms. Saul-Sena made a motion, she
15:50:50 denied, given the state of this case, we have been in
15:50:53 litigation for the purposes of the due process.
15:50:57 I believe it's appropriate to allow this gentleman, he
15:50:59 said he has some additional information, from where
15:51:04 the case was previously I thought it was appropriate
15:51:07 for him to place it on the record.
15:51:09 I just wanted to make that clear for the record.
15:51:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm going to defer to Ms.
15:51:13 Saul-Sena, because out of courtesy her motion came
15:51:17 I think she's waiting for a second.
15:51:19 Hearing no second, I'll move the ordinance.
15:51:22 And this is the ordinance on the two properties on
15:51:24 either side, not the Wells Fargo property.
15:51:28 A and C.
15:51:29 An ordinance rezoning property in the general vicinity
15:51:31 of 8311 and 8315 north 37th street in the city of
15:51:35 Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
15:51:36 section 1 from zoning district classification RS-60
15:51:40 residential single-family to RS-50 residential
15:51:42 single-family providing an effective date.
15:51:43 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:51:45 Question on the motion.
15:51:46 Ms. Saul-Sena.
15:51:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
15:51:49 I have a question.
15:51:49 If we do this, council members, we are creating an
15:51:53 illegal nonconform lot that's owned by a bank that
15:51:59 doesn't even know about it.
15:52:00 It doesn't seem like that's an appropriate thing for
15:52:03 >> They have already got.
15:52:04 >> I was going to address that issue after this
15:52:08 I was going to address that issue after you decide
15:52:10 what you are going to do on it.
15:52:11 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor.
15:52:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Wait, wait, wait.
15:52:14 >>GWEN MILLER: We already did it.
15:52:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But Ms. Saul-Sena asked a relevant
15:52:20 We have to make sure what we are doing is legal.
15:52:22 >>GWEN MILLER: We have to open the public hearing.
15:52:27 >>> I think what would occur then is you would be
15:52:29 rezoning those two parcels.
15:52:31 You can't legally at this point in time rezone the
15:52:33 middle parcel because you don't have the proper party
15:52:35 in front of you.
15:52:36 What under our code would have to happen is either we
15:52:39 would have to get in touch with that middle property
15:52:42 and have them come in for a rezoning for that parcel,
15:52:45 or alternatively the zoning administrator has the
15:52:49 authority to bring forward an area zoning which
15:52:51 doesn't require that the property owner actually be
15:52:54 the one filing for that rezoning, but the zoning
15:52:59 administrator would have the authority under the code
15:53:00 to move forward with that and we would have to cure
15:53:02 and go forward.
15:53:04 >>GWEN MILLER: You are comfortable with what we are
15:53:06 doing right this second?
15:53:07 >>> Yes.
15:53:08 Understanding that that would be --
15:53:11 >>CHAIRMAN: All in favor of the motion say Aye.
15:53:13 Opposed, Nay.
15:53:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Nay.
15:53:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
15:53:18 Ms. Cole, when is it coming back?
15:53:21 >>> Second reading will be February 7th at 9:30.
15:53:24 Thank you.
15:53:28 Second reading and the public hearing, February
15:53:30 7th at 9:30.
15:53:31 That means there's another public hearing.
15:53:33 >> Read it again?
15:53:33 >>> Read it again.
15:53:34 >> And then it passes?
15:53:36 >>> And you need to show up because it is another
15:53:39 public hearing.
15:53:39 >>> Okay.
15:53:42 February 7th.
15:53:43 >>> At 9:30.
15:53:48 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I will be initiating an area wide
15:53:51 rezoning on the middle lot. That petition should come
15:53:53 to you within the next 60 days.
15:53:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: just the middle lot?
15:54:01 >>> Just the middle lot.
15:54:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open appeal hearing number
15:54:12 (Motion carried)
15:54:22 >>> This is an appeal hearing V 07-47, 1508 east
15:54:27 Bougainvillea Avenue.
15:54:29 Request was for a family residence within the RS-50
15:54:35 zoning classification.
15:54:36 Waiver that would need to be granted if council
15:54:40 considers is in compliance with the general standards
15:54:42 of a special use request.
15:54:44 The waiver that would need to be granted is reduce
15:54:48 from 3 feet to 2.9 feet.
15:54:56 The restrictions under the staff report is a
15:54:58 conforming -- I'm sorry, however it may not be located
15:55:01 in a single-family residence in a nonconforming
15:55:04 accessory structure or structure made as a result of a
15:55:09 It does not even give them the ability to seek a
15:55:12 variance. This waiver would have to be gone through
15:55:15 aware of council, special use appeal.
15:55:17 The site plan, the corner of Bougainvillea and
15:55:30 Marabella Avenue, lot 19.
15:55:32 Just to give you -- the building to the rear.
15:55:43 3-foot set back by code.
15:55:45 This structure maintains a 2.9-foot setback.
15:55:49 And as noted in the past, when we are dealing with
15:55:51 special use, one request, that are reviewed and
15:55:54 approved administratively, I do not have the ability
15:55:57 to grant any waivers whatsoever.
15:56:00 Being as minuscule as this seems a .1 foot I do not
15:56:04 have the authority to grant that.
15:56:05 Only City Council does.
15:56:08 So you will note in my staff report that there are
15:56:10 some solid waste notation that is need to be made to
15:56:13 the site plan.
15:56:14 However, I did find it consistent with the general
15:56:16 intent of the code.
15:56:19 And I was not objecting to the request.
15:56:22 I would note, however, that these notes need to be
15:56:25 added to the site plan prior to approval, if council
15:56:27 is considering granting this approval, we would need
15:56:31 to continue it so that they could update the site
15:56:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't remember ever seeing one of
15:56:41 these in the five years -- is this just an additional
15:56:47 little --
15:56:48 >>> yes.
15:56:49 The City of Tampa is very restrictive when it comes to
15:56:52 accessory residences or accessory dwelling units.
15:56:55 They are only allowed through a special use process.
15:56:58 And they have to meet very strict guidelines.
15:57:00 And it also cannot be rented.
15:57:02 It is supposed to be for a relative.
15:57:05 Once they move or pass on, it needs to be converted
15:57:08 back to the primary use of the property
15:57:14 Even surrounding jurisdictions were restrictive in
15:57:17 that respect.
15:57:17 The simple criteria was the set back criteria which
15:57:20 was what they are asking you to consider.
15:57:24 >>GWEN MILLER:
15:57:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
15:57:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Petitioner?
15:57:29 >> It was one tenth of a foot off.
15:57:31 >>> My name is feel licks.
15:57:35 That's for my mom.
15:57:37 She did that because we have a lot of family that
15:57:41 come, and they come from another country.
15:57:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Name and address?
15:57:53 >> Feel licks, 1008 -- 150 east Bougainvillea Avenue,
15:58:01 speaking for my mom.
15:58:05 >>JULIA COLE: We could probably go ahead if you make
15:58:07 part of your motion, between first and second reading,
15:58:11 downtown really need to continue it.
15:58:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second Ms. Saul-Sena's motion.
15:58:18 (Motion carried).
15:58:19 >>> The conditions are on page 2 of the report.
15:58:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just incorporate.
15:58:27 We'll just incorporate them by reference.
15:58:29 >>GWEN MILLER: We'll incorporate them.
15:58:30 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: What was that now?
15:58:36 >>> An ordinance approving a special use permit S-1 on
15:58:39 appeal from a decision of the zoning administrator
15:58:41 allowing the extended family residence in an RS-60
15:58:47 residential single-family zoning district in the city
15:58:49 of Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
15:58:52 section 1 allowing an extended family residence,
15:58:56 providing an effective date.
15:58:57 >> I have a motion.
15:58:59 >>JULIA COLE: What I would ask you to include in your
15:59:06 motion is the conditions set forth by staff within the
15:59:09 staff reports be added to the site plan.
15:59:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Ye okay, this would include the
15:59:12 staff reports that are in existence would be added to
15:59:15 this motion.
15:59:17 >>GWEN MILLER: That's it?
15:59:18 We have a motion and second.
15:59:20 (Motion carried)
15:59:29 >>> Second reading and public hearing is February
15:59:31 7th at 9:30.
15:59:32 A new site plan indicating the conditions that we
15:59:34 talked about today that are part of the staff report
15:59:37 are part of the site plan.
15:59:40 >>CHAIRMAN: We now go to new business from council
15:59:45 >>THE CLERK: You still have new item 9 to remove from
15:59:49 the agenda.
15:59:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
15:59:52 (Motion carried).
15:59:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't know what Mr. Caetano has.
16:00:00 I was leaving.
16:00:01 We have an employee who has been with us for 34 years.
16:00:04 She's done an outstanding job.
16:00:07 Leaving the city employment after 34 years.
16:00:14 I would like a commendation made by council on 1-24 if
16:00:17 I may.
16:00:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
16:00:20 (Motion carried).
16:00:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The second is to the family,
16:00:24 commendation for February 21 for Mr. victor Meyer
16:00:36 (Motion carried)
16:00:36 >>THE CLERK: On the commendation for 1-24 you are
16:00:43 wanting that on the day or evening session?
16:00:45 The day session is your workshops.
16:00:47 >> If we can do it the day, I guess day.
16:00:54 No one is getting overtime.
16:00:56 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I want to make a motion that we
16:00:58 direct our chairperson Ms. Miller along with our
16:01:01 attorney to draft a letter to IKEA company that this
16:01:04 City Council passed a motion 6 to 1 to approve their
16:01:08 project, and that this City Council would at this time
16:01:11 reaffirm that approval.
16:01:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Get a second?
16:01:15 >> Second.
16:01:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:01:16 (Motion carried).
16:01:18 >>THE CLERK: Dingfelder and Saul-Sena no.
16:01:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just for clarification I'm not
16:01:24 opposed to IKEA but I think we have -- we are already
16:01:27 on the record, if they want a copy of it they can get
16:01:29 it from the clerk.
16:01:31 >>CHAIRMAN: Didn't pass.
16:01:34 It's 3-3. 3-2.
16:01:37 Has to come back.
16:01:37 Anything else?
16:01:44 It was 3-3.
16:01:47 It was 3-2.
16:01:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I thought it only applies to --
16:01:55 >> I need clarification from Mr. Shelby on that issue.
16:02:04 During information reports.
16:02:07 In fact, if it should roll over we can have Mr. Shelby
16:02:11 advise the clerk not to put it on the agenda.
16:02:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll just say a little further on
16:02:18 I think that there's been enough discussion on that
16:02:21 issue in the community.
16:02:23 And I don't think we need to revive it.
16:02:26 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: The issue should have never come
16:02:29 The vote was 6 to 1 and it should have been dead.
16:02:32 I think the person that proceeded with this should
16:02:34 have stopped.
16:02:35 It was a 6 to 1 vote.
16:02:37 It's a dead issue.
16:02:38 But that hasn't happened.
16:02:39 And I'm tired about reading it in the paper that this
16:02:43 city is embarrassed.
16:02:44 I'm embarrassed.
16:02:45 I'm getting people up in New Tampa, What the hell is
16:02:48 going on down there?
16:02:49 I mean it's not right.
16:02:50 The issue was dead 6-1.
16:02:52 It should be over.
16:02:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Joseph, with all due respect you're
16:02:58 entitled to your opinion and you stated it just now.
16:03:01 All we are going to do by continuing with this motion
16:03:03 is just to keep reviving it.
16:03:05 The reporters are scribbling feverishly.
16:03:08 So if we can just let it lie, let's just let it lie.
16:03:10 >> We want IKEA to come here.
16:03:13 It's going to generate much, much business.
16:03:15 There's already been another application across the
16:03:17 street for a furniture store.
16:03:20 >> I'm saying do we want -- do we want --
16:03:23 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I don't want to continue it.
16:03:24 I want it to stop.
16:03:26 >>CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dingfelder, report.
16:03:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: On a lighter note, the University
16:03:31 of Tampa has just a great athletic program and
16:03:36 recently their women's soccer team won the national
16:03:39 championships NCAA II national championship.
16:03:43 I would like to invite head coach Jerry Lucy and his
16:03:47 team and anybody else he wants to bring to come
16:03:50 receive a commendation and we'll figure out a date.
16:03:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
16:03:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
16:03:56 (Motion carried).
16:03:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Nothing else today.
16:04:01 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
16:04:04 Under our reports today, we received a report from
16:04:07 Cindy Miller saying they are going to do something
16:04:09 about the Guida house.
16:04:11 I would like to request a written staff report on
16:04:12 February 21st with their request for proposal or
16:04:16 qualifications and a time for same for the response,
16:04:20 review and selection.
16:04:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
16:04:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
16:04:24 (Motion carried)
16:04:25 Anything else?
16:04:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
16:04:28 Yesterday, I attended the green building ordinance
16:04:31 workshop that was chaired by Mr. Dingfelder, and it
16:04:37 was really productive, and I look forward to moving
16:04:39 ahead with that ordinance.
16:04:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And our next discussion is on the
16:04:42 24th of next week.
16:04:44 >>GWEN MILLER: All right.
16:04:45 I have a commendation I would like to give to one of
16:04:48 my church members who is going to be turning 100 years
16:04:51 old tomorrow, the 18th.
16:04:53 And her name is Claudia Donaldson.
16:04:56 And I will present to the her on Saturday.
16:04:58 We'll be having a birthday party for her in the
16:05:03 >> So moved.
16:05:03 >> Second.
16:05:04 (Motion carried).
16:05:04 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to give a commendation to
16:05:07 the Tampa Metro Civitan club, plus the Clearwater
16:05:14 Metro Civitan club for a celebration for their joint
16:05:17 community service during the week of February 3rd
16:05:19 and 7th, 2008.
16:05:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
16:05:22 >>CHAIRMAN: I would like to give this commendation on
16:05:24 January 31st.
16:05:25 All in favor of the motion.
16:05:27 >>THE CLERK: On January 31st you have CRA that
16:05:32 >>CHAIRMAN: Can we do it?
16:05:34 >>THE CLERK: We have never had commendation during
16:05:38 >>GWEN MILLER: I can do it the week after.
16:05:42 We don't meet February 3rd.
16:05:45 >>THE CLERK: You meet on the 7th.
16:05:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do it during CRA.
16:05:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Can I do it the week before, the
16:05:55 >>THE CLERK: Do you want it in the day section?
16:05:59 >>CHAIRMAN: Do it on the 24th.
16:06:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
16:06:02 >> Second.
16:06:02 (Motion carried).
16:06:03 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like for Mr. Shelby to check
16:06:07 with the county or other municipalities and find out
16:06:14 if a person can write personal letters on our
16:06:18 stationery and see if we can or can't.
16:06:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Why would you check?
16:06:23 >>CHAIRMAN: Well, see what they do.
16:06:28 We can check with somebody else. At least check with
16:06:29 the county.
16:06:29 >>JULIA COLE: I would like to ask Mr. Shelby -- what
16:06:36 I hear your question to be is a that you want Mr.
16:06:38 Shelby to check with the county.
16:06:41 Or check Florida law related to members of City
16:06:44 Council drafting letters on their own personal
16:06:48 letterhead on their own behalf.
16:06:53 >>CHAIRMAN: Personal letters on council letterhead.
16:06:55 >> Oh, writing personal letters on letterhead.
16:06:59 >>GWEN MILLER: Or state legislature head, any
16:07:02 legislative body.
16:07:03 >>JULIA COLE: Probably when Mr. Shelby looks at that
16:07:06 issue he can delineate what the different issues are.
16:07:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Right.
16:07:10 Mr. Dingfelder.
16:07:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Question.
16:07:11 Is that a motion or are you just going to do a
16:07:13 personal request to Mr. Shelby?
16:07:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Do it and then come back and let us
16:07:17 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Are you making --
16:07:19 >>GWEN MILLER: A motion, yes.
16:07:20 It has to be a motion?
16:07:23 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Again, I would urge Madam Chair,
16:07:27 with all due respect, as I said, let a dead dog die.
16:07:32 >>GWEN MILLER: I'm not mentioning any --
16:07:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I know you're not.
16:07:36 >>GWEN MILLER: It could be me.
16:07:38 It could next be me writing a letter.
16:07:39 And I'm not saying to anyone special.
16:07:45 I'm just saying check into it and let's see.
16:07:47 That's all I'm saying.
16:07:49 It could be me.
16:07:51 And I will know whether I am doing the wrong thing or
16:07:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
16:07:57 I guess I'll take the gavel since it's your motion.
16:08:00 There's a motion and second.
16:08:01 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
16:08:02 Any opposed?
16:08:05 >>THE CLERK: Saul-Sena and Dingfelder.
16:08:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess Mr. Shelby -- madam
16:08:11 >>JULIA COLE: I am going to request Mr. Shelby on this
16:08:15 one whether it's appropriate for it to roll over on
16:08:15 your agenda, and actually take a full council.
16:08:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If they do, it will appear. If
16:08:23 they don't, it will die for lack of votes.
16:08:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Another concern I have is special
16:08:28 discussion meeting.
16:08:29 I would like to find out what is the procedure we need
16:08:34 to go through.
16:08:35 We have staff there.
16:08:35 Should we hold it without staff?
16:08:38 Or how the special meetings should be held.
16:08:40 And to see if other municipalities have special
16:08:45 discussion meeting of what's going on.
16:08:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Who do you want to ask that to?
16:08:52 >>CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelby.
16:08:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'm in my fifth four-year term of
16:09:04 City Council.
16:09:05 We have been everything special discussion meetings
16:09:06 all these years.
16:09:07 They have been constructive.
16:09:08 They have been taped.
16:09:08 They have involved conversation with the public, with
16:09:10 city staff, and council members.
16:09:13 They have been addressed and noticed at council
16:09:17 There's never been a problem with it.
16:09:19 I don't see a reason to use staff time to research
16:09:22 something that's gone ahead successfully for all these
16:09:25 I think it's a waste of staff time.
16:09:27 >>GWEN MILLER: I don't, Ms. Saul-Sena, because some
16:09:30 things we can discuss in council meetings.
16:09:32 We don't have to have special discussion meetings all
16:09:34 the time.
16:09:35 So I think it's worthwhile to find out if this is
16:09:37 something that's always going to happen.
16:09:39 I know we have been doing like this, might have been
16:09:40 doing it wrong, and check and find out if it's
16:09:43 something that we need to do.
16:09:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If I could.
16:09:50 The special discussion meetings, a lot of times,
16:09:53 council's days get full.
16:09:55 We are already approaching 4:00.
16:09:57 We have been here since 9:00.
16:10:00 So often council members will schedule special
16:10:02 discussion meetings so we can meet with the community
16:10:05 in an informal setting.
16:10:06 I think this is the first administration where they
16:10:08 choose not to send staff, unless there's a quorum,
16:10:12 which is what happened yesterday.
16:10:14 We had three council members attend the meeting.
16:10:18 We had about 20 community members attend the meeting
16:10:20 and staff opted not to. But we still had a very,
16:10:25 very, very productive meeting.
16:10:27 It helps us take the community input, speak among
16:10:31 ourselves, still in the sunshine, and refine some of
16:10:35 these things that are important to the city.
16:10:41 I don't have a problem if you want some clarification
16:10:44 from Marty, are we doing it appropriately, or do other
16:10:47 communities do it?
16:10:48 That's fine.
16:10:48 But I would just urge us not to -- why tie our own
16:10:54 >>GWEN MILLER: We are not tying our hands.
16:10:56 We can discuss it in the chambers.
16:10:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But then people complain about
16:11:00 >>GWEN MILLER: We are not. We are here now and nobody
16:11:01 is complaining.
16:11:01 We are still here.
16:11:04 That's why we have special days of the workshop.
16:11:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But we also limit community input.
16:11:09 >>GWEN MILLER: We can do special discussion on that
16:11:14 same date but not call it a workshop.
16:11:16 And that's what we have it so we can do things that we
16:11:20 want to do.
16:11:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But we don't allow the public to
16:11:25 >>CHAIRMAN: They could. A workshop they are not.
16:11:27 A special discussion, we can have a discussion.
16:11:31 We do discussion on the fourth Thursday.
16:11:35 Special discussion on those days.
16:11:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, I challenge you to
16:11:39 find council members who are willing to devote the
16:11:41 additional time on Thursday.
16:11:42 >>GWEN MILLER: We're here. I'm here.
16:11:43 You're here.
16:11:44 He's here.
16:11:45 And I'm here.
16:11:46 So the rest of them we do the same things.
16:11:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If that's really the issue and you
16:11:52 want to have special discussion meeting on those
16:11:54 Thursdays, on a workshop Thursday --
16:11:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
16:11:57 We created those days.
16:11:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's still a good format to go
16:12:01 downstairs, in the sunshine still, but go downstairs
16:12:04 to have it where it's less formal.
16:12:06 Because you get a lot more done in a less formal
16:12:08 setting with the community than you do --
16:12:13 >>GWEN MILLER: But I think you would have more council
16:12:14 members if you did it up here.
16:12:17 So I'm just asking to research and see.
16:12:20 That's all I'm asking.
16:12:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Shelby arrives.
16:12:33 >> You missed all the fun.
16:12:33 >> Ms. Cole will give you all the information.
16:12:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We are trying to be done.
16:12:38 >>GWEN MILLER: Clerk, do you have anything?
16:12:40 >> Just to receive and file.
16:12:42 >> So moved.
16:12:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
16:12:46 Receive and file?
16:12:48 (Motion carried).
16:12:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Anything else, clerk?
16:12:51 Do you have anything?
16:12:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.
16:12:58 I wanted to get back in time for the fun.
16:12:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You're too late.
16:13:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
16:13:03 We stand adjourned.
16:13:04 (Meeting adjourned)
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