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TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
WORKSHOPS
THURSDAY, MARCH 27, 2008
9:00 A.M.

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>>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.
The chair will yield to Mr. Charlie Miranda.
09:08:42:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
09:08:42:15 I'm deeply honored and privileged to have our City
09:08:45:06 Clerk, Shirley Foxx-Knowles, to say the invocation.
09:08:48:15 Please stand for the invocation and remain standing for
09:08:50:18 the Pledge of Allegiance.
09:08:52:01 >> Good morning, Council.
09:08:53:12 Let us pray.
09:08:55:03 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the
09:08:59:00 Earth?
09:08:59:24 Gracious father, we again thank you for this beautiful
09:09:03:09 morning here in the wonderful City of Tampa.
09:09:06:06 Thank you for the blessings you've given us.
09:09:09:25 Thank you for allowing us to live in paradise.

09:09:13:04 You have been so good to us, and we are truly thankful.
09:09:17:09 Thank you for those gathered here today for our Council
09:09:21:12 workshop.
09:09:21:27 Thank you for our Council members, our Mayor, our
09:09:26:00 administration, the employees of the great City of
09:09:29:06 Tampa and our wonderful citizens.
09:09:31:13 Bless them, father, and keep them all in your care.
09:09:34:27 And now, O Lord, as we go about the worldly matters of
09:09:39:13 this city, lead us again to remember to be kind and
09:09:44:25 understanding of each other.
09:09:46:06 Bless us with patience, integrity, and honesty.
09:09:49:07 Let us remember to be instruments of your will.
09:09:53:12 We pray for your blessings, your peace, your grace, and
09:09:57:24 your mercy.
09:09:59:06 These things we ask with humble hearts, amen.
09:10:02:15 [Pledge of Allegiance]
09:10:21:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:10:22:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:10:23:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:10:25:15 >> Dingfelder?
09:10:26:18 Scott?
09:10:27:06 Mulhern?
09:10:28:04 Caetano?
09:10:32:09 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Here.
09:10:33:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.

09:10:33:12 At this time, we have a workshop.
09:10:34:27 We need to open it.
09:10:37:18 Motion and second.
09:10:38:09 All in favor, aye.
09:10:39:03 [Motion Carried]
09:10:44:07 >> Good morning.
09:10:48:01 Bob Clifford.
09:10:49:04 I'm with D.O.T., but I'm actually here today with my
09:10:53:07 TBARTA hat on.
09:10:55:09 The Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority.
09:10:59:03 And I want to give you a little presentation.
09:11:01:06 We have a Powerpoint for you tonight -- this morning,
09:11:03:27 excuse me, to let you know a little bit about what
09:11:06:10 TBARTA is, what it is, where it's going, and what its
09:11:10:13 role will be as we move the effort of transportation
09:11:12:27 within the region, and particularly transit within the
09:11:15:21 region forward.
09:11:16:15 At this point, I would like to -- if they could pull up
09:11:19:24 the Powerpoint, we'll start.
09:11:21:12 The first point, really, when we talk about
09:11:25:18 transportation and the issues we face, the challenges
09:11:27:12 we face, we're talking about quality of life, economic
09:11:30:01 development, really big issues in terms of how we live
09:11:34:06 and work within a region.
09:11:36:00 But really, also have some significant challenges in

09:11:38:21 terms of addressing transportation challenges in terms
09:11:42:03 of congestion and increasing travel time.
09:11:45:18 We're seeing that throughout this area, throughout this
09:11:47:24 region, and that's not going away.
09:11:49:27 It's getting greater and greater as we look out into
09:11:52:12 the future, as we continue to build more lanes.
09:11:55:21 So what are some of those opportunities we have in
09:11:57:22 terms of moving forward related to transportation, and
09:12:01:15 how does transit fit into that?
09:12:03:10 We're all aware of the rising costs of transportation
09:12:06:00 and how that plays into our daily life.
09:12:09:15 The issue of within this region, transportation is a
09:12:13:15 real big part of a family's budget, and then one of the
09:12:18:09 highest in the country, actually, in terms of what
09:12:20:24 transportation does in terms of a family's budget.
09:12:23:10 We also have the issue of changing demographics within
09:12:26:15 the region.
09:12:27:07 As we age, as the baby boomers grow up, in terms of our
09:12:32:01 needs and issues, in terms of being closer to where
09:12:35:10 things are, to where medical facilities are, it's where
09:12:38:19 arts and entertainment are, how would we be able to
09:12:42:16 make people be able to get to where they want to go?
09:12:45:18 Those are all the challenges that we face over time.
09:12:47:24 TBARTA itself, regional agency created to address some
09:12:51:04 of these issues, created by the legislature, a large

09:12:54:09 organization in terms of the area it looks at.
09:12:56:12 It looks at things from a regional perspective, from
09:12:58:19 Citrus County to the north to Sarasota County to the
09:13:01:06 south.
09:13:01:21 About 6,000 square miles.
09:13:03:16 But what's interesting about the entity and the
09:13:06:18 organization is that it has some unique abilities and
09:13:09:12 powers.
09:13:09:27 It has the ability to not only plan transportation
09:13:12:27 facilities, but also to design, construct, own,
09:13:16:00 operate, and finance those same facilities.
09:13:18:18 It has the ability to implement, or as we say, build
09:13:22:18 stuff related to transportation.
09:13:23:25 Looking at the board makeup of the entity.
09:13:28:15 Each county is represented.
09:13:29:19 The City of Tampa is represented as is St. Petersburg
09:13:33:00 and a rotating membership between the cities of
09:13:36:18 Bradenton and Sarasota, four gubernatorial appointees.
09:13:39:24 You see all of the members there in terms of who the
09:13:42:03 board members of the TBARTA are 15 members with an ex
09:13:46:09 officio being the district 7 D.O.T. secretary.
09:13:50:12 Looking at the purpose of the authority.
09:13:54:04 This comes right out of the legislation.
09:13:55:15 I really change it around a little bit.
09:13:57:00 Really what we're talking about is being able to get

09:13:59:00 people from where they are to where they want to go in
09:14:01:13 an efficient, timely manner and looking at all modes of
09:14:04:24 transportation in order to do that.
09:14:07:06 Looking at what TBARTA, as I mentioned, what their
09:14:10:24 abilities may do.
09:14:12:21 They have the ability to acquire property, to issue
09:14:15:07 bonds.
09:14:16:27 Interesting in the world of transportation, they have
09:14:18:09 the ability to accept donations and enter into
09:14:21:09 public/private partnerships in terms of being able to
09:14:24:18 deliver transportation facilities.
09:14:27:09 Unique ability and power and one that the board is very
09:14:29:24 interested in exploring in terms of getting beyond the
09:14:32:21 planning stage and getting to that implementation
09:14:35:06 stage.
09:14:35:13 Some of those long-term responsibilities, long-term
09:14:40:21 responsibility of developing a plan, but having a
09:14:42:21 multimodal plan.
09:14:44:09 The expressed intent and focus initially of TBARTA is
09:14:48:06 related to transit and how transit plays into our
09:14:51:04 overall transportation system, particularly from a
09:14:53:25 regional perspective in terms of moving people within
09:14:57:10 the region and throughout the region, and how transit
09:15:01:00 is a key component of that.
09:15:03:01 Looking at the guiding principles.

09:15:05:21 This is something that the board adopted early on in
09:15:08:21 terms of our development of the plan and then
09:15:10:18 ultimately the implementation of it.
09:15:12:06 Looking at that time from the issue of regionalism,
09:15:14:27 putting our regional hat on, thinking about moving
09:15:17:07 people within the region, realizing that all of us as
09:15:20:21 we travel don't necessarily pay attention to the issue
09:15:23:03 of when we're traveling, we go from one political
09:15:25:28 jurisdiction to another, a political jurisdictional
09:15:29:13 boundary doesn't matter when year traveling somewhere,
09:15:31:27 we just want to get there, and that's what is
09:15:34:12 critically important and looking at it from that
09:15:36:25 perspective.
09:15:37:06 Also, the issue of planning, making sure, obviously,
09:15:39:18 that it's integrated and we look at it from an
09:15:42:12 equitable perspective in trying to ensure that we have
09:15:45:07 equity within the region, we have different needs,
09:15:48:09 we're at different places in terms of our growth, but
09:15:50:19 looking at that balance.
09:15:51:27 What I think is critically important, though, related
09:15:54:12 to their guiding principles, is the issue of funding
09:15:57:10 and financing.
09:15:58:03 We talk about transportation, we're all aware that it's
09:16:01:06 expensive, and it will take a lot, particularly in
09:16:04:10 terms of partnerships in order to provide and implement

09:16:06:27 transportation facilities.
09:16:08:06 But the board made it clear that they want to have that
09:16:10:24 funding and financing discussion, two distinct
09:16:13:07 elements, but they want to have that discussion
09:16:15:24 throughout the development of the plan, not at the end
09:16:18:04 of the plan where we say, all right, here's a great
09:16:21:00 plan, now how do we fund it?
09:16:23:00 But let's have that discussion throughout the
09:16:24:18 development of the plan so that when they get to the
09:16:26:18 end of the line and have developed the plan, here is
09:16:29:06 the plan, and here is the funding side of it and how we
09:16:32:06 implement it, critical to, I think, the success of this
09:16:35:00 effort in terms of moving transportation forward from
09:16:37:18 the planning stage to actually getting to implementing
09:16:40:12 or building stuff.
09:16:41:12 This is just a schedule.
09:16:44:07 I'm not going to go into any detail, only to say we are
09:16:48:00 on three tracks.
09:16:48:22 One is the technical track.
09:16:49:27 What is it, where is it and how does it all fit
09:16:52:07 together?
09:16:52:25 The other is the public engagement track.
09:16:56:00 Critically important throughout the entire process.
09:16:58:18 Engaging the public.
09:16:59:18 What do they want?

09:17:00:13 What do they see from terms of existing needs?
09:17:03:18 Where do they want to go in the future in term of how
09:17:06:00 we grow and how we use transportation to facilitate
09:17:10:09 that.
09:17:10:24 Also, the issue, as I mentioned earlier, financial.
09:17:13:24 How that fits into the entire equation and how we look
09:17:16:24 at that in terms of development of the plan.
09:17:19:18 Just technical first steps.
09:17:21:27 First days, what are the connections within the region
09:17:24:09 we need to be looking at?
09:17:25:24 Those boxes are nothing more than we call travel sheds
09:17:28:19 and the connections between them and how they all fit
09:17:30:22 together and they build upon themselves.
09:17:32:12 We're going through that first element and that first
09:17:34:15 step in terms of those connections.
09:17:36:09 Those are not all of the areas we're connecting.
09:17:38:21 Those are illustrative in terms of areas in terms of
09:17:42:03 the region looking to connect with.
09:17:44:00 Talk about the public engagement process.
09:17:46:18 We're well into that process.
09:17:48:03 This is part of that process.
09:17:50:12 We just held community workshops, our first round of
09:17:53:21 community workshops within each county.
09:17:55:09 Well attended.
09:17:56:09 Lots of good input.

09:17:57:27 Lots of excitement and optimism from the public about,
09:18:00:21 it's about time, we need to be talking about this in
09:18:02:24 term of moving transportation, and moving us throughout
09:18:06:06 the region and having transit be a key component of
09:18:08:24 that.
09:18:09:06 Going throughout that process, informal process,
09:18:13:00 community associations, rotary clubs, chambers,
09:18:15:12 basically the way we've been saying, if people are
09:18:17:12 willing to listen to us, we're willing to come talk to
09:18:20:10 them.
09:18:20:21 We want to receive their input.
09:18:22:00 This part of the process -- and we'll be back.
09:18:24:16 This is the early stages.
09:18:26:04 We are still in our infancy as an organization and
09:18:28:25 entity.
09:18:29:15 As we get further along and as the plan starts to gel
09:18:32:19 together, we want further input and we want to be able
09:18:34:15 to ensure that as we get out in the development and
09:18:36:27 ultimately the approval of a plan and adoption of a
09:18:39:21 plan, that the community has had input into the entire
09:18:42:18 effort in terms of how to move this forward.
09:18:44:25 The issue of funding.
09:18:46:06 I want to talk about that.
09:18:47:06 That's critically important related to where we go in
09:18:50:07 terms of the ultimate implementation of the plan.

09:18:53:07 The board has made it clear we want to have that
09:18:56:06 discussion.
09:18:56:27 Look at all opportunities.
09:18:57:27 What are our opportunities and challenges at the
09:18:59:12 federal and state level?
09:19:00:22 What are those same opportunities and challenges at the
09:19:04:00 local level?
09:19:04:15 How does the private sector fit into this?
09:19:07:15 We're using what we refer to as lessons learned in
09:19:11:12 other parts of the country and region, how they've been
09:19:13:22 able to be successful in terms of delivering
09:19:15:21 transportation.
09:19:16:03 There are some real creative opportunities out there in
09:19:18:19 terms of involving the private sector and having them
09:19:21:15 come into play in the delivery of transportation.
09:19:24:04 They are not going to pay for all of it.
09:19:26:03 Absolutely not, but they certainly are a key component
09:19:28:27 of it.
09:19:29:06 And how can we get that into our overall plan and work
09:19:33:13 with them?
09:19:34:16 That's a key component of what TBARTA has been doing.
09:19:36:27 We've been having that discussion.
09:19:38:03 We have folks coming throughout each one of our
09:19:40:18 meetings and talking to the board about what are those
09:19:43:06 opportunities and lessons learned from other regions of

09:19:45:01 the country.
09:19:45:27 What's been interesting is as we've been looking at the
09:19:48:25 lessons learned, we've been trying to compare ourselves
09:19:51:13 to all parts of the country, but really looking at
09:19:54:09 regions that are a little more like us.
09:19:56:15 Sunbelt regions, and areas that operate more regionally
09:20:00:07 as opposed to more focused on a central city, if you
09:20:04:12 will, in term of looking at it.
09:20:06:15 We've been successful with that.
09:20:07:25 Looking at areas such as the Charlotte region, Dallas
09:20:11:03 region, Denver region, Phoenix region.
09:20:14:18 Those areas and some successes.
09:20:16:27 Those of regions are actually larger than this region
09:20:19:15 in term of the number of entities that are involved in
09:20:22:06 terms of counties and cities, and areas that they look
09:20:25:18 at.
09:20:26:06 Using their successes and lessons learned, successes
09:20:28:27 and failures in terms of being able to move our effort
09:20:31:15 forward.
09:20:31:27 When we talk about funding and partnerships and
09:20:35:25 opportunities and with the private sector, we think
09:20:38:01 it's important to lay this out for you.
09:20:40:10 Had an issue where in terms of the entity, TBARTA was
09:20:43:21 created but was given no funding from an administrative
09:20:46:09 perspective.

09:20:46:24 We have really seen a partnership evolve in terms of
09:20:49:15 entities stepping up.
09:20:50:28 The MPOs have stepped up within the region.
09:20:53:13 This MPO stepped forward and said, yes, we want to
09:20:57:21 provide funding, particularly to provide legal services
09:21:00:04 related to TBARTA, which was a critical component early
09:21:03:15 on and will remain so throughout the process.
09:21:05:18 The private sector through the Tampa Bay partnership
09:21:08:09 stepping up and saying we'll match what the government
09:21:12:21 sector can provide at this early stage.
09:21:14:28 And then having the Department of Transportation,
09:21:18:27 taking my TBARTA hat off for a second, putting my
09:21:21:25 D.O.T. hat on, making the point that we're serious.
09:21:24:12 This is a real effort.
09:21:25:19 We believe this is the time.
09:21:26:24 This is the place.
09:21:27:15 This is the entity to have that discussion and to get
09:21:29:27 beyond the planning stage and get into that
09:21:32:09 implementation stage.
09:21:33:13 The Department of Transportation stepping forward and
09:21:35:27 saying, we want to put some significant funding towards
09:21:38:15 this effort, particularly from a technical perspective
09:21:41:07 in terms of getting beyond the plan.
09:21:43:10 We need to do the plan, and let's do the work for that,
09:21:46:00 but let's get to what we know best which is building

09:21:48:24 stuff.
09:21:49:09 That's really where we are coming from from a D.O.T.
09:21:52:07 perspective and shown by the commitment of the
09:21:53:22 department of $23 million within the work program to
09:21:57:18 get this effort moving, get it forward.
09:22:00:01 We're serious.
09:22:01:07 We believe this is the time, this is the place.
09:22:03:15 So we talk about funding.
09:22:05:28 Really the way I see it, comes down at the end of the
09:22:08:09 day, when we have a plan and we start talking about
09:22:10:15 what those options are, funding and partnerships at all
09:22:13:07 levels, the question is going to be, does that funding
09:22:15:21 investment, whatever that is, and it is an investment,
09:22:18:06 when you think about it, does that match what the
09:22:21:07 service benefit is?
09:22:22:18 That's going to be the critical test in terms of
09:22:25:21 talking with elected bodies such as yourself, in terms
09:22:28:21 of talking with the electorate in general and the
09:22:32:04 citizenry related to how we move forward and how we
09:22:35:00 implement a plan, that's going to be the question.
09:22:37:13 And it's a critical question.
09:22:39:04 The board is fully aware of that and are taking that
09:22:41:18 into account as we move forward in the development of
09:22:43:18 the plan.
09:22:44:09 Talk about our public outreach.

09:22:47:00 As I mentioned earlier, we've been out there a lot.
09:22:49:15 We've been everywhere.
09:22:50:27 I can't tell you the amount of miles over the last
09:22:55:15 couple of months.
09:22:56:09 Actually, we're in the thousands of citizens we've
09:22:58:04 already spoken to and seen and talked to, and
09:23:01:00 continually moving that effort forward.
09:23:02:18 This is just to give you an example of some of those
09:23:05:18 efforts, those community workshops we just held over
09:23:08:01 the last two weeks, but we're still out there talking
09:23:10:09 to all different entities and organizations, and we'll
09:23:12:24 continue to do that throughout the entire process.
09:23:15:21 And not just from a perspective of going out and
09:23:18:25 presenting and seeking input, we're also making use of
09:23:21:21 all types of media.
09:23:23:12 We have a Web site.
09:23:24:12 Web site is heavily used.
09:23:26:13 A lot of good information out there.
09:23:27:24 A lot of requests for information and opportunities to
09:23:30:15 understand better what TBARTA is doing, what it is, and
09:23:34:06 where it's going.
09:23:35:21 As I mentioned earlier, we're in our infancy, we're
09:23:37:27 moving forward.
09:23:38:16 We have a goal, and actually a requirement by the
09:23:43:00 creation of TBARTA to have a regional master plan in

09:23:45:24 place by July 1st of 2009.
09:23:49:06 The board has asked us to accelerate that process to
09:23:51:16 try to be done with that by the end of this calendar
09:23:54:10 year.
09:23:54:21 We're on our way to doing that.
09:23:56:21 Still a lot of discussion to be had.
09:23:58:27 As we get into the details of that plan, I hope to have
09:24:01:21 the opportunity to come back to this entity and let you
09:24:04:21 know specifically about what the plan is.
09:24:07:27 I think that's absolutely critical, and to receive your
09:24:10:00 input on that, but we're moving very rapidly, very
09:24:13:27 quickly, and with the end goal of really moving this
09:24:17:06 region forward in terms of regional transportation, in
09:24:20:03 term of transit, and in terms of how we get beyond the
09:24:23:18 planning stage into implementation.
09:24:25:16 And with that, Madam Chair, I'll open it up to any
09:24:28:15 questions you may have.
09:24:29:18 >>GWEN MILLER: Questions by Council members?
09:24:32:01 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:24:32:09 Mr. Clifford, I have known you for years.
09:24:34:13 This is the best presentation you have ever done.
09:24:36:15 This is great.
09:24:37:07 It's absolutely wonderful.
09:24:38:21 The things you're saying are very much supported by
09:24:43:19 Tampa City Council, and we invited you here to not only

09:24:46:21 provide us an update, to provide the citizens of Tampa
09:24:49:15 watching government access the ability to hear about
09:24:51:27 it.
09:24:52:03 Has the TBARTA board taken any position on funding
09:25:00:21 through this year's legislature?
09:25:02:18 >> They have not taken a position as a board, no.
09:25:08:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Will that be on their agenda at
09:25:10:01 their upcoming meeting?
09:25:11:12 >> I fully envision we'll talk about it tomorrow at our
09:25:14:07 board meeting.
09:25:14:19 There are some efforts already out there for funding
09:25:17:09 from an administrative perspective is really what we're
09:25:19:22 talking about for funding.
09:25:21:00 I believe it will end up being discussed tomorrow.
09:25:25:24 Haven't taken a position, no.
09:25:27:22 But they have had that discussion and will continue to
09:25:30:16 have that discussion.
09:25:34:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
09:25:35:15 Mr. Clifford, Tampa Bay area regional transit authority
09:25:39:00 has been around for some time, hasn't it?
09:25:40:28 >> Yes.
09:25:41:06 Well, it used to be called the commuter rail authority.
09:25:44:01 Now it's the transit.
09:25:45:06 The legislation a couple of years ago changed the name.
09:25:51:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I remember an office at the airport

09:25:54:21 back in the '70s.
09:25:56:12 '74, '75, I don't know if this is the same or offshoot
09:26:00:16 of that.
09:26:01:01 >> No.
09:26:01:12 This is a totally different organization with some
09:26:03:12 unique powers in terms of being able to deliver
09:26:07:28 transportation.
09:26:08:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay.
09:26:09:06 Thank you.
09:26:10:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern.
09:26:12:21 >>MARY MULHERN: I didn't know that.
09:26:13:13 Commuter rail -- what was it?
09:26:15:16 >> It was originally called the Tampa Bay area commuter
09:26:17:27 rail authority.
09:26:19:04 >>MARY MULHERN: And when was that?
09:26:22:04 >> '70s.
09:26:27:13 >>MARY MULHERN: So it's been kind of asleep until it
09:26:30:15 got its new name.
09:26:36:18 >> I think it was TBART without the "A."
09:26:39:21 And that was in the '70s.
09:26:41:04 That was before my time.
09:26:42:21 And then actually in the '90s, then there was the
09:26:47:04 existence of the Tampa Bay Commuter Rail Transit
09:26:51:06 Authority, which was then renamed Commuter Rail
09:26:58:00 Authority, which was renamed Tampa Bay Commuter Transit

09:27:01:25 Authority.
09:27:02:06 And that one is still existing on the books.
09:27:06:12 But it is not active.
09:27:10:03 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, I wish us luck.
09:27:14:03 That wasn't my question.
09:27:16:15 I just appreciated Charlie bringing that up.
09:27:19:27 My question is, it's interesting to me what the
09:27:24:03 relationship of the Department of Transportation is
09:27:28:09 with TBARTA.
09:27:29:22 I know when this went to the legislature and wasn't
09:27:35:03 funded that F.D.O.T. stepped in, and that's great that
09:27:39:03 we actually have someone to do administration and help
09:27:42:27 figure out how to do it.
09:27:44:06 But what I'm wondering, a couple of questions, is there
09:27:47:09 another -- there's at least one other regional
09:27:52:24 transportation authority in Florida, right, in south
09:27:55:00 Florida?
09:27:55:19 >> Yes, the south Florida regional transportation
09:27:57:28 authority.
09:27:59:01 >>MARY MULHERN: Does that work through F.D.O.T.?
09:28:02:09 >> It initially did.
09:28:04:15 It initially started off what was referred to as
09:28:07:19 tri-rail, which was a commuter rail entity down in
09:28:12:18 south Florida that was originally administered by the
09:28:14:21 Department of Transportation, and then ultimately off

09:28:16:27 on its own.
09:28:18:00 The department still funds a good bit of what they do.
09:28:21:13 >>MARY MULHERN: So it's turned out to be just a funding
09:28:24:24 mechanism, but they have their own authority.
09:28:27:27 >> Correct.
09:28:28:15 Now they do.
09:28:29:03 They did not initially.
09:28:30:06 Over time.
09:28:31:06 >>MARY MULHERN: Is that the goal for TBARTA as far as
09:28:33:27 we know?
09:28:34:19 >> Well, I would tell you TBARTA was created to be a
09:28:37:13 separate organization, entity from the beginning.
09:28:39:12 The department stepped forward in terms of we want to
09:28:41:21 see this effort succeed and step forward from the
09:28:45:24 funding and the resources, myself and others included,
09:28:49:13 to make sure in that interim time period to make sure
09:28:53:27 that it is successful.
09:28:55:09 >>MARY MULHERN: The Department of Transportation, and
09:28:58:12 we perceive it as being roads, so the rail option is
09:29:03:21 not -- it's been something that you've been involved
09:29:06:07 with more with funding than with administration.
09:29:11:19 >> Well, I would say from -- people may think of it as
09:29:15:15 roads, but the issue is, it is the Department of
09:29:18:16 Transportation.
09:29:19:27 It's all modes of transportation, and in south Florida

09:29:23:09 fully involved in the efforts related to commuter rail
09:29:26:06 there, the entire effort in central Florida, again,
09:29:28:28 D.O.T. being involved in that effort from not only the
09:29:32:06 planning stages and the funding stages but into the
09:29:35:25 implementation stages.
09:29:37:27 >>MARY MULHERN: I think my concern about this whole
09:29:39:18 process is that with rail at least for this region,
09:29:45:10 transit being a new concept as far as bringing it
09:29:49:18 actually to -- you're talking about implementation and
09:29:52:12 funding stage, that we're going to be competing with
09:29:57:03 that.
09:29:58:07 And so you know, I want us to be sure that the rail --
09:30:03:13 the TBARTA has their advocacy for transit, and it
09:30:08:03 doesn't become, you know, too much of a competitive
09:30:12:24 process for funding for roads.
09:30:16:24 >> Well, we need transportation in all modes.
09:30:19:21 One of the things that the discussion has been, it's
09:30:21:21 been at the Department of Transportation level, we've
09:30:24:07 said it, the TBARTA board has said it.
09:30:26:18 If we're going to continue to talk about the same
09:30:29:12 funding sources carved in differently, we're really not
09:30:33:10 getting there.
09:30:34:13 We need to be creative in looking at other solutions in
09:30:37:15 terms of how do we implement transportation?
09:30:39:24 And that includes funding, and that's why TBARTA,

09:30:43:00 having some of those unique abilities related to
09:30:45:18 public/private partnerships and other opportunities
09:30:48:24 really is trying to look at things a little bit
09:30:51:12 differently and a little more creatively in terms of
09:30:55:00 how you deliver transportation, particularly from a
09:30:56:24 funding perspective.
09:30:59:00 >>MARY MULHERN: I guess what -- I'm speaking as I'm
09:31:02:04 thinking about this, but I think what I would like to
09:31:04:18 see from TBARTA is to move toward kind of a shift in
09:31:12:24 our approach because of the cost of fuel and the
09:31:17:07 climate change that we're facing and all those things
09:31:19:15 that transit becomes a more -- a better investment.
09:31:26:01 And so I would like to see TBARTA working toward a kind
09:31:30:04 of philosophy with the state department of
09:31:34:00 transportation reducing the cars on the road and that
09:31:38:06 that be part of the mission.
09:31:39:01 >> I would tell you it is all part of the entire effort
09:31:43:00 of what we're doing.
09:31:44:00 When I go to the beginning in terms of we're talking
09:31:46:00 about quality of life, economic development, and the
09:31:49:12 challenges we face with that, and we need to be looking
09:31:51:19 at it from that holistic perspective.
09:31:54:28 >>MARY MULHERN: I'd like to see that be the mission.
09:31:57:18 I guess that's -- I think for it to be really
09:32:00:12 effective, it has to have that mission and that part as

09:32:05:27 a fundamental goal of the organization.
09:32:10:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano.
09:32:16:09 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Yes, in the first part of your
09:32:18:01 presentation, you had mentioned an implemental plan
09:32:21:03 where we learn lessons from others.
09:32:23:06 Now, the Mayor came out to New Tampa last week, and she
09:32:28:21 was complaining it took her an hour and ten minutes to
09:32:31:09 get there.
09:32:31:28 And that's not a bad time coming from south Tampa.
09:32:37:03 It could be worse.
09:32:39:18 And the way I see it, you're going to be spending a lot
09:32:41:18 of money, the county and the state, on Bruce B. Downs
09:32:43:24 Boulevard widening, and ten years from now, if this
09:32:48:27 plan comes available for us, then we're going to rip up
09:32:54:15 what we just put in.
09:32:57:13 Are you planning ahead that you'll need a corridor for
09:33:02:18 some type of light rail?
09:33:04:03 >> Absolutely.
09:33:04:15 And there are some opportunities already exist in terms
09:33:08:13 of the existing rail lines in the area.
09:33:12:07 Some are used; some not.
09:33:14:18 Existing utility corridors, and use, for example, of
09:33:17:04 the Bruce B. Downs corridor.
09:33:18:18 It does include within the overall right-of-way of that
09:33:25:01 corridor a segment to be used for transit in the

09:33:26:28 future.
09:33:27:13 That was planned into the concept for that corridor.
09:33:29:24 >> They have that space available now?
09:33:32:13 >> My understanding is they do.
09:33:34:12 It's a county project.
09:33:35:06 We'd have to ask the county on that.
09:33:37:15 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: I see Lucy nodding her head.
09:33:39:27 Is that true?
09:33:44:07 >>LUCY AYERS: Yes, sir.
09:33:44:27 It was in the right-of-way of the Bruce B. Downs
09:33:47:28 corridor.
09:33:48:16 There's about a 20-foot right-of-way set aside for
09:33:51:15 transit use.
09:33:52:22 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Is that going to be in the middle or
09:33:54:06 on the side?
09:33:55:28 >>LUCY AYERS: On the side.
09:33:56:24 On the right-hand side as you go north.
09:34:00:19 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Go ahead.
09:34:06:06 >>MARY MULHERN: Is that for rail or for something that
09:34:08:04 might end up being BRT lane?
09:34:12:04 >>LUCY AYERS: I think right now it's for transit.
09:34:14:06 In the MPO concept plan, we're saying that by the time
09:34:18:00 we actually have all the conditions in the right place
09:34:21:24 and at the right time that could be a rail corridor.
09:34:27:16 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano, are you finished?

09:34:32:00 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Yes, I think I am.
09:34:34:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Good morning.
09:34:35:00 Thank you for coming over.
09:34:36:07 You know when you go for a job interview and they
09:34:38:18 always ask you a silly question, like, tell us some of
09:34:45:00 the negatives on your resumé or whatever.
09:34:46:24 Tell us what the challenges are.
09:34:49:00 I'm sure behind closed doors in your office you guys
09:34:51:21 are talking about -- you know, what the hurdles are,
09:34:54:21 what the challenges are.
09:34:56:09 >> I would say the challenges are, we are a diverse
09:34:58:15 region.
09:34:58:27 Have different needs at different times, if you will.
09:35:02:21 There's a concern about equity within the region in
09:35:05:12 terms of delivering those transportation facilities and
09:35:09:10 how do you fund them.
09:35:10:21 The challenge will be thinking regionally, not locally
09:35:14:28 in terms of delivery of those same facilities.
09:35:19:01 And obviously the issue of funding, how do we pay for
09:35:22:00 this.
09:35:22:21 Those are the key, broad challenges that we see at the
09:35:28:06 staff level and I can tell you the TBARTA board has
09:35:30:21 talked about and is aware of and wants to make sure we
09:35:33:21 address as we go through this process.
09:35:35:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I guess those translate into

09:35:38:06 political challenges and voting, if we're going to vote
09:35:42:03 on it, referendum challenges, that sort of thing.
09:35:44:21 >> Absolutely, if we get to that point.
09:35:46:10 What the board has said at this point is we don't want
09:35:48:21 to take anything off the table.
09:35:50:15 Let's think about it.
09:35:51:18 Let's be creative.
09:35:53:00 Let's look for different solutions.
09:35:54:19 We don't necessarily need to do things the way we have
09:35:57:06 done them in the past, particularly in terms of what
09:35:59:00 the facilities are and how you fund them.
09:36:00:25 And let's think about what our options could be and how
09:36:03:21 we might be able to get there.
09:36:05:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I know I asked you guys this at the
09:36:07:12 MPO a couple of months ago, maybe things have changed a
09:36:10:03 little bit.
09:36:10:18 But are there timetables now?
09:36:12:09 Are we developing schedules or timetables?
09:36:14:27 Or is that premature?
09:36:16:12 >> The first effort in terms of timetable, the only
09:36:19:21 real one out there presently at this time is the
09:36:22:04 development of the master plan.
09:36:23:12 The requirement by the legislation is July 1st of
09:36:26:27 2009.
09:36:27:15 The board has asked us to accelerate that to try to

09:36:30:06 have it complete by the end of this calendar year.
09:36:32:27 It may be January or February.
09:36:34:13 For a very specific reason.
09:36:37:27 The reason was to make sure we have the plan complete
09:36:42:10 in time for the next federal reauthorization of
09:36:45:00 transportation, to be able to put us in line related to
09:36:49:03 federal funding, also to put us in line related to
09:36:53:10 state funding in terms of the next legislative session
09:36:55:21 and how we deal with transportation.
09:36:58:04 That was specifically time to make sure that we were in
09:37:02:15 line for those so we didn't lose another year in terms
09:37:06:06 of that discussion.
09:37:06:24 Beyond that, there's no other timetable.
09:37:08:27 What the board has said, though, in terms of what the
09:37:11:24 plan is, we're looking at not only existing, but as we
09:37:15:18 grow out to 2050, what is the plan for the next 40
09:37:22:00 years in terms of what we're going to do?
09:37:24:25 And how does that land use connection and how we grow,
09:37:28:00 how does this effort fit into that in terms of what's
09:37:31:15 happening with the "One Bay" effort, what's happening
09:37:35:09 locally with each community's comprehensive plan, how
09:37:38:10 do we connect all of that in in terms of how we grow
09:37:41:06 and how transportation, particularly transit, is a key
09:37:44:15 component of that.
09:37:45:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: When I was in Washington a few weeks

09:37:47:27 ago on transportation issues, there was a lot of
09:37:53:00 discussion about the reauthorization.
09:37:54:25 Seemed to be a little up in the air, and nobody was
09:37:58:18 really sure what direction it was going.
09:38:00:24 Is that what you're hearing also?
09:38:02:12 >> Oh, absolutely.
09:38:03:06 You don't know yet.
09:38:05:03 And we'll have to see.
09:38:06:21 There are challenges at the federal level related to
09:38:09:19 funding.
09:38:10:04 You know, one of the challenges overall is the way
09:38:12:18 we've been funding transportation through the fuel tax
09:38:16:10 process.
09:38:17:06 It's a consumption-based tax.
09:38:19:04 We're as a nation trying to consume less.
09:38:26:15 Part of the question is, is that still an appropriate
09:38:28:21 way to fund transportation, or are there other
09:38:32:00 opportunities?
09:38:36:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:38:37:09 This is the most mature, thoughtful, broad approach we
09:38:40:22 have ever taken.
09:38:42:21 And as you said, the idea of figuring out the funding
09:38:47:04 and the implementation is part of the process, even as
09:38:49:18 we're thinking about what the plan should be.
09:38:51:28 For those reasons, I think this has a chance of

09:38:55:00 actually coming into being.
09:38:58:03 And we want, we, City Council, recognizing the
09:39:01:22 challenges want to be as supportive as we can
09:39:04:19 throughout the process.
09:39:05:15 So what we would appreciate is for you to come back
09:39:08:12 here when you have something more substantive to show
09:39:12:28 us in the planning stage, because we want to be
09:39:15:01 informed, we want to be able to be advocates for it in
09:39:18:09 the community, to tell you of opportunities, to share
09:39:20:19 it with our constituents.
09:39:21:19 Because, basically, the public is going to have to
09:39:25:21 understand this in order to be supportive of it.
09:39:28:06 The other thing that I would really encourage is for
09:39:30:22 you all to organize a trip for people who perhaps
09:39:34:18 aren't familiar with these systems in other cities,
09:39:36:28 because seeing is believing.
09:39:38:12 To look at Sunbelt cities that are really thrilled
09:39:42:24 about having rail systems and supporting them and
09:39:45:27 begging for them to expand is very powerful information
09:39:55:00 for making this successful.
09:39:56:21 Some of us, Mary and I went to Charlotte and saw their
09:39:59:10 system, and we were green with envy knowing that it
09:40:01:21 was, of course, our money that was -- either the
09:40:04:15 federal money that had been earmarked for us that
09:40:07:04 funded their system.

09:40:08:00 Well, we're grown up now.
09:40:09:19 We know better.
09:40:10:25 We want to make sure that we develop our system.
09:40:12:27 But traveling to see other systems is great.
09:40:14:25 And I really do encourage you all to make that
09:40:18:19 opportunity available for citizens, community leaders,
09:40:22:21 elected officials who may not be familiar with some of
09:40:24:24 these other systems.
09:40:26:07 >> We're already on that.
09:40:27:12 And I absolutely agree.
09:40:29:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Good.
09:40:30:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott.
09:40:31:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Clifford.
09:40:32:06 Let me just follow up and go back to the question that
09:40:35:28 councilman Dingfelder raised about the challenges, and
09:40:38:25 you talked about the funding issues and turf areas and
09:40:43:09 that sort of thing.
09:40:44:22 Have you all looked at how the southern part of the
09:40:52:15 state, Miami, Dade, Broward, West Palm, how they put
09:40:55:27 together their package, has there been some study
09:40:58:18 relative to how they got to where they are?
09:41:01:03 >> Yes, not only south Florida, but actually other
09:41:03:27 parts of the country.
09:41:05:03 Yes, we have.
09:41:06:10 And it really comes down to partnerships.

09:41:09:21 It needs to be significant, local support, including
09:41:12:27 funding, and that's how you make it work.
09:41:16:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yeah, I want to highlight that because
09:41:19:13 we're in Florida, and I assume that when you look at
09:41:22:09 Florida, our tax system is a lot different tax
09:41:25:16 structure, lot different than other parts of the
09:41:27:16 country in terms of how we get revenue.
09:41:29:09 In looking at that, do you recall what was the
09:41:37:16 partnership in terms of the funding mechanism that they
09:41:39:22 put in place?
09:41:41:06 >> In south Florida?
09:41:42:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:41:42:28 >> Not specifically.
09:41:43:28 I mean, I've got a whole sheet that has each one in
09:41:47:06 terms of how they are funded, including how we fund
09:41:50:03 things here.
09:41:50:18 I can tell you -- I can't answer the specific question,
09:41:53:15 but I can tell you even interestingly enough in the
09:41:57:06 TBARTA region from Citrus to Sarasota, we did that same
09:42:01:06 analysis of how transportation is funded at the county
09:42:03:27 level.
09:42:04:12 It's vastly different just within this region.
09:42:07:12 And that is going to be one of those challenges, how do
09:42:10:07 we deal with that?
09:42:12:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me follow up with one other thing.

09:42:15:28 Councilwoman Saul-Sena talked about we were in line.
09:42:18:06 Charlotte got the revenue.
09:42:19:22 Speaking of that and the next round of funding for
09:42:23:28 transportation, Hillsborough County back in '99, 2002,
09:42:29:00 2003 were really way ahead with their study,
09:42:34:01 environmental impact study and all that.
09:42:37:00 Could any of that be used as we move forward and
09:42:39:06 position Hillsborough County and the City of Tampa to
09:42:49:03 kind of be up front to the funding?
09:42:51:01 >> Related to the region, we did an early analysis and
09:42:54:07 showed the TBARTA board.
09:42:56:15 Within this region, there are already 22 transit plans
09:43:01:03 out there.
09:43:01:18 And we made the point, there's no reason to reinvent
09:43:04:09 the wheel.
09:43:05:24 Let's use what is out there and let's move forward.
09:43:08:15 So, absolutely, that work will be utilized, and I would
09:43:12:12 believe as the TBARTA board gets to the project and to
09:43:16:15 then the issue of priorities, those are all factors
09:43:18:18 they'll take into consideration in term of how you
09:43:20:21 prioritize what the projects are.
09:43:22:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yeah.
09:43:22:28 Because I think, Lucy, you can correct me, I think we
09:43:25:16 spent about $12 million on the study when we were doing
09:43:29:16 the environmental impact for Hillsborough County.

09:43:33:04 >>LUCY AYERS: That number came from Hartline.
09:43:37:06 I believe that's what I heard, yes.
09:43:42:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Clifford.
09:43:43:18 And I know you're going to be successful, because we
09:43:45:27 need this rail of some type.
09:43:49:04 I know the committee and everybody will jump in and
09:43:51:12 help you.
09:43:52:00 And we'll be there.
09:43:55:03 >> Thank you.
09:43:56:16 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Madam Chairman, I know that TBARTA
09:44:00:00 is going to be looking at this bill that's going to the
09:44:03:12 state for administrative funding.
09:44:05:06 And our capacity as City Council, I'd like to get a
09:44:11:21 report back on that.
09:44:12:27 Under like our staff, Ms. Lane or maybe somebody there
09:44:21:27 could speak to it, what's happening.
09:44:24:03 I feel like it's coming together.
09:44:25:13 If they vote to support it, I think Council should vote
09:44:28:04 to support it as a way of encouraging it.
09:44:30:19 Maybe somebody could speak to it.
09:44:33:19 >>GWEN MILLER: McCloud.
09:44:36:22 >>ELAINE McCLOUD: Good morning, Council.
09:44:38:00 Elaine McCloud with the City of Tampa.
09:44:40:03 I believe the legislation you are speaking of, the bill
09:44:42:06 is currently -- was acted upon on March 20 by the

09:44:46:03 infrastructure committee.
09:44:46:24 And that is a bill that essentially takes 80% of
09:44:53:21 revenue from a rental car surcharge, and it will be
09:44:57:13 directed to specify regional transportation authorities
09:45:03:21 identified in the legislation.
09:45:05:06 And I'm not sure what the position of Florida D.O.T.
09:45:10:18 is; however, I think that would, in fact, provide some
09:45:15:16 sort of a recurring revenue stream, and we certainly
09:45:19:09 need dedicated funding for TBARTA, which we do not have
09:45:23:28 at the current time.
09:45:25:07 So that is just one piece of legislation that was
09:45:28:01 sponsored by representative Galvano.
09:45:30:21 And if approved, that legislation will become effective
09:45:35:01 July 1, 2008.
09:45:39:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My motion would be to get a staff
09:45:41:12 report at our next City Council meeting, which is
09:45:44:27 April 3rd to update us on what's happening with it
09:45:49:10 and if the TBARTA board took an action on it to see if
09:45:54:25 we the City Council want to weigh in on it.
09:45:57:03 I would like to make a motion that we just get a staff
09:46:00:15 update on that at our April 3rd meeting.
09:46:03:21 >>ELAINE McCLOUD: Absolutely.
09:46:04:03 And if I may add, there is a teleconference scheduled
09:46:08:00 tomorrow with Bill Peebles, who is our representative
09:46:11:12 in Tallahassee, in which that particular piece of

09:46:14:25 legislation will be discussed.
09:46:16:00 So I would be more than happy to provide a further
09:46:18:13 update on that as information becomes available.
09:46:21:15 >>GWEN MILLER: It can be a written report then?
09:46:24:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No, I would like to have
09:46:25:21 Ms. McCloud here under staff reports.
09:46:30:15 >> Second.
09:46:30:25 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:46:31:25 All in favor of the motion, aye.
09:46:33:25 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: I didn't hear the first part of the
09:46:35:13 motion.
09:46:36:06 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It was to get an update on where the
09:46:37:28 proposed legislation is at the legislature.
09:46:39:16 It's to provide money for funding the TBARTA.
09:46:44:21 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion, aye.
09:46:46:24 [Motion Carried]
09:46:55:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: One thing I failed to mention, and
09:46:56:15 probably needs to be brought up at our Hillsborough
09:46:56:15 County transportation, Ken Hagan, on the books in 2003,
09:46:58:15 when I was Chairman of the board of county commission,
09:47:01:06 we got the legislature to enact or change the
09:47:04:01 legislation where Hillsborough County, and I think up
09:47:08:04 to a half cent transportation surtax -- is it one?
09:47:13:18 That is still on the books, today, either go referendum
09:47:16:21 or by majority vote, I believe of the Hillsborough

09:47:20:00 County commission.
09:47:21:00 So that is still out there as well.
09:47:25:04 >>GWEN MILLER: All right.
09:47:25:22 We go to item number 2.
09:47:27:07 Mr. Cook.
09:47:29:27 >>JAMES COOK: Good morning, James Cook, Land
09:47:35:19 Development Coordination.
09:47:35:21 You should have received a packet from Mrs. Miller on
09:47:35:21 this.
09:47:38:28 I'm here to answer any questions.
09:47:40:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It looks like we made some
09:47:45:21 improvements and changes to the vacating form, and
09:47:49:21 that's what you're bringing to us today, correct?
09:47:52:27 >>JAMES COOK: Yes, sir.
09:47:54:13 First revision to this report that we've done in
09:47:56:21 probably 25 years.
09:47:57:16 With the exception of the colored photographs and the
09:48:01:09 colored aerial.
09:48:02:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: All right.
09:48:03:06 On the space you have related petitions, I think that's
09:48:12:16 a good spot, because that's what I was going to ask you
09:48:16:03 about.
09:48:16:21 So that would be any rezonings --
09:48:19:15 >>JAMES COOK: Yes, sir.
09:48:20:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And sometimes, I think I even

09:48:24:09 remember perhaps a comp plan amendment or something --
09:48:27:10 >>JAMES COOK: There were a couple in the past.
09:48:28:10 Those would also be mentioned in there.
09:48:30:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Good job.
09:48:31:09 Thank you.
09:48:32:01 >>GWEN MILLER: Any other questions?
09:48:32:28 Ms. Saul-Sena.
09:48:33:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:48:34:12 On the question, what City Council district
09:48:38:24 Neighborhood Association, historic district, overlay
09:48:41:00 district is affected, you have the opportunity for the
09:48:49:09 barrio or the A.R.C.
09:48:52:21 >>JAMES COOK: Yes, ma'am.
09:48:53:09 That would also be mentioned in there.
09:48:55:15 I don't know if you have gone through the whole packet,
09:48:58:06 what we have done -- most vacatings are pretty
09:49:00:27 straightforward.
09:49:01:19 We only notify 10, 11, 12 agencies, but there is that
09:49:05:24 opportunity where every agency might get notified.
09:49:10:03 It might be one of the historic districts, which might
09:49:12:00 be 17 different agencies.
09:49:12:12 You are familiar with the old form -- basically, it
09:49:20:18 gives you whether they approve, object, or request
09:49:23:09 easements.
09:49:23:21 And then you have to refer to each individual sheet to

09:49:26:15 review the responses.
09:49:28:12 And what we have done now is we've created a second
09:49:31:18 sheet, and we're going to summarize those responses on
09:49:34:22 the one sheet in addition to a sheet that those whether
09:49:37:28 they have any objections or not.
09:49:39:06 So basically, we'll put all their comments on that one
09:49:41:24 sheet.
09:49:42:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay.
09:49:43:04 One other question.
09:49:44:03 This is a huge improvement.
09:49:45:15 Is there any place where it's indicated whether the
09:49:48:03 alley is brick or asphalt?
09:49:50:18 >>JAMES COOK: We're going to add that also.
09:49:52:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I think that's really important.
09:49:55:06 >>JAMES COOK: -- background, on the right-hand side of
09:49:57:01 the report.
09:49:57:13 That would be listed in background information.
09:49:59:21 Unimproved alleyway or brick alleyway.
09:50:02:21 Anybody using it for access.
09:50:04:03 Basically, the right-hand side of the report would have
09:50:05:24 all kinds of background information.
09:50:08:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do we have -- don't we have
09:50:12:24 legislation that is specifically protective of brick?
09:50:17:15 >>JAMES COOK: We have a local city ordinance that is
09:50:21:09 supposed to preserve the bricks, that I believe you all

09:50:24:12 passed last year or the year before.
09:50:26:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Actually, we passed it several years
09:50:28:00 ago.
09:50:28:09 So that would be noted?
09:50:29:24 >>JAMES COOK: That would also be noted, yes, ma'am.
09:50:31:12 All that would be on the right-hand side of the report
09:50:32:28 to give you a bunch of background information.
09:50:36:06 >>JULIA COLE: Julia Cole, Legal Department, if I could
09:50:38:21 make another comment on that.
09:50:40:16 The brick street ordinance, it is a separate ordinance,
09:50:42:27 and it does provide if you have a brick street that you
09:50:46:12 are going to have to do something with a separate
09:50:50:10 noticed process, that you actually have a public
09:50:53:04 hearing pursuant to that brick street ordinance to make
09:50:57:01 a determination of the appropriateness of disturbing
09:50:59:22 the brick.
09:51:01:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What about if somebody is wanting to
09:51:03:06 vacate an alley that's brick?
09:51:05:01 >>JULIA COLE: It's actually a separate process from
09:51:06:19 that.
09:51:07:07 I mean, you could conceivably have them running
09:51:10:12 together, but technically under the way that brick
09:51:12:15 street ordinance is written, it provides a separate
09:51:15:09 notice and a separate public hearing process after
09:51:19:00 following that process, you would be then taking a

09:51:21:10 vote.
09:51:22:03 It would be first on the vacation, and then second on
09:51:24:28 disturbing the brick, vice versa.
09:51:28:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Lastly, on the very last page of the
09:51:30:21 packet, you provided us, you give an example of a
09:51:33:24 comment by the urban design division which is really
09:51:36:00 helpful and excellent.
09:51:37:18 Will that be part of this also?
09:51:39:09 >> It will be part of it when the overlay district --
09:51:43:12 historic districts are affected.
09:51:45:18 That way it gives you another opportunity to get a
09:51:47:27 staff perspective.
09:51:49:06 Nine out of ten times, we agree with the barrio and
09:51:53:04 A.R.C.
09:51:53:27 This will give you an opportunity and little more
09:51:56:28 information to render a decision.
09:51:58:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: If the barrio has a different
09:52:00:15 opinion from the staff, which sometimes happen, will we
09:52:02:27 receive both?
09:52:04:03 >>JAMES COOK: Those will both be noted.
09:52:06:24 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Excellent.
09:52:07:09 Thank you so much.
09:52:08:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: One last question, there's a space
09:52:10:15 for reason for petition, and on the example you've
09:52:14:28 given to construct -- are we deriving -- will staff be

09:52:21:12 deriving the reason for a petition from the applicant's
09:52:26:18 space that is their reason for the petition, or would
09:52:30:12 it be perhaps the real reason for the petition as
09:52:33:22 interpreted by staff?
09:52:35:00 Hopefully the latter.
09:52:37:03 >>JAMES COOK: Probably a combination of the two.
09:52:38:09 We'll take into account what's on the application when
09:52:40:21 they file it.
09:52:41:12 Then based on our observations when we go in the field
09:52:43:21 to take photographs or if they have a pending rezoning
09:52:47:03 going with it, then we can kind of see it's not just --
09:52:50:09 because there's dumping and crime and encroachments in
09:52:53:06 the alley.
09:52:53:25 It's for future development.
09:52:55:06 That would be noted there.
09:52:56:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Right.
09:52:57:01 Because sometimes you and I both know that folks come
09:53:00:24 in and they say dumping crime, and then when we push or
09:53:05:15 you push a little bit, we realize they want to build a
09:53:08:10 larger house that encroaches toward the alley.
09:53:10:24 And they need that extra land.
09:53:13:18 >>JAMES COOK: That's a catchall reason.
09:53:15:06 Most of the people know that and they'll put that on in
09:53:17:18 there certain neighborhoods, if they put that on there,
09:53:21:06 chances are they'll get it approved.

09:53:23:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Helps them along the way.
09:53:25:04 The reality is, when you figure it out as staff, we
09:53:27:09 need to know it, so hopefully you guys, that will be
09:53:29:19 the spot where you --
09:53:31:15 >>JAMES COOK: Pending code violation, that would be
09:53:33:10 noted on there, too.
09:53:34:24 Render a code violation --
09:53:41:01 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Being the new guy on the board, I'm
09:53:42:28 not that familiar with some of these alleys.
09:53:44:19 A brick alley, is it that we don't want to touch those
09:53:52:01 brick alleys?
09:53:53:19 >>JAMES COOK: The bricks have been considered historic.
09:53:56:06 And I would probably guess in the history, as long as
09:53:59:00 I've been here, we've probably vacated two brick
09:54:01:18 alleys.
09:54:02:06 One is still operating as an alley.
09:54:04:15 If you drive out there, you can't tell a vacating took
09:54:08:13 place.
09:54:08:24 It still acts as an alley.
09:54:11:25 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: So the city would be responsible for
09:54:13:13 any liability on the brick alleys.
09:54:15:19 >>JAMES COOK: Either want the bricks back and remove
09:54:17:12 them under the ordinance or require the abutting
09:54:19:15 property owners to incorporate them into a project and
09:54:21:22 use the bricks.

09:54:22:27 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Who would be responsible for the
09:54:24:03 liability if someone gets hurt on one of those brick
09:54:27:04 alleys?
09:54:28:12 >>JAMES COOK: Once it's vacated, it becomes private
09:54:30:07 property.
09:54:30:18 Nine times out of ten, everybody moves their fences to
09:54:33:06 the center of the alley.
09:54:34:28 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: They would be responsible for taking
09:54:36:01 those liabilities out.
09:54:37:27 >>JAMES COOK: Yes, sir.
09:54:39:10 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Okay.
09:54:40:03 Thank you.
09:54:40:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Cook.
09:54:42:00 All right.
09:54:43:24 Item number 3, Mr. Shelby.
09:55:01:27 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Good morning, Council.
09:55:03:07 Martin Shelby, City Council attorney.
09:55:05:21 I'm here to provide a brief overview and introduction
09:55:08:21 to the Sunshine Law as a preface to your discussion of
09:55:12:03 the subject amongst yourselves.
09:55:14:18 Steven covey, who wrote the seven habits of highly
09:55:22:04 successful people, stated one of the habits is begin
09:55:24:27 with the end in mind.
09:55:27:15 As a way of introduction, I'm going to begin with the
09:55:31:01 end that we wish to avoid, the end that we don't have

09:55:33:27 in mind, which are the consequences for the violation
09:55:37:15 of the public meetings law, the Sunshine Law and open
09:55:41:21 government.
09:55:41:28 And the reason I do that is to twofold, number one is
09:55:46:24 to get your attention, hold it, and number two is to
09:55:51:27 impart the seriousness of the discussion ultimately.
09:55:54:15 And sometimes especially for people who have been
09:55:58:09 elected to public service for a long period of time, a
09:56:03:15 refresher every so often is good to maintain one's
09:56:07:12 sensitivity to it.
09:56:08:07 I think the important message that I give to you is
09:56:10:24 rather than impart a whole bunch of rules and a whole
09:56:14:13 bunch of statutes and attorney general opinions and
09:56:18:09 whole bunch of court decisions is just to leave you
09:56:20:22 ultimately with the point that you remain sensitive to
09:56:28:04 the concerns of the public meetings law so if a
09:56:32:04 situation should arise that raises a level of concern,
09:56:35:24 that you do know that you do have the opportunity to
09:56:38:15 call me, as you know, anytime, day or night, with a
09:56:41:24 question.
09:56:42:06 And Mr. Smith makes his office and himself available to
09:56:45:04 you because our goal here is to comply with the
09:56:50:04 mandates of the people, both codified in Florida
09:56:53:27 statutes and enacted within our state constitution that
09:56:58:22 people want open and transparent government

09:57:02:21 deliberations.
09:57:03:13 And that ultimately is the spirit of all the court
09:57:07:16 decisions and AG opinions.
09:57:09:04 And I think that as long as one remembers and remains
09:57:12:21 sensitive to that, sort of like moving to the top of a
09:57:16:21 mine that should a situation arise, you remain
09:57:19:27 cognizant of it and that will both protect you and
09:57:23:06 protect the process.
09:57:27:19 And for the purposes of seeing what it is we want to
09:57:32:00 avoid, a public officer that violates any provision of
09:57:38:21 section 286.011, which is the public meetings and
09:57:42:18 records law, that person is guilty of a noncriminal
09:57:45:27 infraction punishable by a fine not exceeding $500.
09:57:49:04 Now, should that person knowingly violate that section,
09:57:54:27 then it becomes a misdemeanor of the second degree,
09:57:59:01 literally, it is a crime to violate the public meetings
09:58:02:24 law.
09:58:03:09 And, of course, then the state attorney would get
09:58:05:12 involved, and that's something that anybody would want
09:58:07:27 to avoid.
09:58:09:06 Which reminds me that I'm not saying this to say that
09:58:13:07 I'm casting any aspersions, it's just a reminder.
09:58:17:19 Also, please be reminded that you also serve other than
09:58:23:00 members of the City Council.
09:58:24:12 Of course, you are members of the Community

09:58:25:12 Redevelopment Agency, but each of you are members of
09:58:28:19 other collegial boards.
09:58:30:28 And the Sunshine Law applies to any two or more members
09:58:36:13 of a collegial board, the Sunshine Law is invoked.
09:58:39:12 For instance, some of you may serve on Hartline.
09:58:41:27 Some may serve on MPO, some may serve on PTC, some may
09:58:46:06 serve on the Sports Authority, those are also other
09:58:49:10 boards that encompass the Sunshine Law or the Sunshine
09:58:51:28 Law encompasses those boards.
09:58:54:15 So please remember that it goes beyond your role as
09:58:58:01 City Council members, but it goes to your role as the
09:59:02:07 other hats that you wear in your capacity as a public
09:59:05:16 officer.
09:59:06:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Marty, do you know how they deal
09:59:08:15 with that term "knowingly"?
09:59:14:13 I'm just kidding.
09:59:18:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I have a personal story.
09:59:18:27 It was when I served as a Largo commissioner.
09:59:20:24 There was a foundation that invited members of the
09:59:23:28 Largo city commission to talk about their project and
09:59:26:19 the plans for the future.
09:59:27:27 And surprisingly or not surprisingly, that board also
09:59:30:24 received funding from the city.
09:59:32:06 And members of the city commission came in there, and
09:59:34:10 it was very nice, and we all sat around a conference

09:59:36:28 room, and I was newly elected to the commission, and I
09:59:41:12 asked the question, has this meeting been noticed?
09:59:45:03 And everybody looked around, and I didn't see anybody
09:59:50:04 taking minutes, which is one of the points we'll get
09:59:52:09 to, and there was a determination made that, no, we
09:59:56:22 don't believe so.
09:59:57:19 At that point, everybody knew.
10:00:03:03 Which means, my advice under that circumstance, which
10:00:06:01 is what everybody did, they very quickly and very
10:00:09:06 graciously excused themselves and removed themselves
10:00:12:12 and extricated them from that process.
10:00:14:15 So if you ever find yourself in a position where you
10:00:18:21 feel that you have to do that, that it may be a
10:00:22:18 concern, violation of the Sunshine Law, you extricate
10:00:25:24 yourself and remove yourself from that process as
10:00:28:18 graciously as possible.
10:00:30:06 The other point I want to make with regard to penalties
10:00:33:27 is that somebody who initiates an action for violation
10:00:39:12 of the Sunshine Law can get individual -- can get
10:00:43:09 attorney fees for that.
10:00:45:03 Not only from the elected body, but from individual
10:00:47:27 Council members.
10:00:49:10 So individual Council members can be liable for
10:00:52:18 attorneys' fees.
10:00:53:18 And probably the most significant to your constituents

10:00:57:16 for a violation of the Sunshine Law is that the matter
10:01:03:06 on which was the subject that you made the decision on
10:01:09:04 in violation or a board would make it a violation of
10:01:11:18 sunshine is void ab initio, which is Latin for void
10:01:17:03 from the get-go.
10:01:18:16 Which means that whatever it is that happened just
10:01:21:07 ceased to exist, never existed, and you have to go
10:01:23:25 back -- you have to go back to the beginning.
10:01:26:13 And the courts have said that it's not sufficient to do
10:01:30:19 lip service and go through the process after the fact
10:01:33:03 to make it valid.
10:01:35:09 It's a significant thing that you have to actually go
10:01:38:03 through the process.
10:01:39:21 So very briefly, I've done a three-word executive
10:01:43:15 summary for you with regard to the public meetings law.
10:01:51:24 Notice, location, and minutes.
10:01:53:12 If you remember those three words, you'll remember the
10:01:56:27 essence of the Sunshine Law.
10:01:59:00 With regard to notice, the notice has to be reasonable.
10:02:02:01 What is the set time?
10:02:03:15 There is no set time.
10:02:07:06 Depending on the circumstances.
10:02:08:27 The test is whether a person has sufficient notice to
10:02:12:00 make the determination whether they want to attend that
10:02:15:25 meeting.

10:02:17:07 So the circumstances determine how reasonable it is.
10:02:20:09 If it's an emergency, obviously, an emerging exigent
10:02:28:15 circumstance, an emergency, the notice could be shorter
10:02:30:27 than something that you had planned way in advance and
10:02:33:22 gave people the opportunity.
10:02:34:25 I personally prefer -- I don't know how Mr. Smith
10:02:37:15 feels -- but I personally feel very comfortable with a
10:02:40:09 minimum of 72 hours' notice.
10:02:42:07 That's my own personal level of comfort.
10:02:45:01 Of course, as you know, the clerk posts it downstairs.
10:02:48:06 The clerk posts it on the city Web site and the clerk
10:02:51:03 posts it on the agenda.
10:02:54:21 With regard to location, the location needs to be
10:02:57:07 accessible to people.
10:02:59:03 Where it is located has to be easily accessible to the
10:03:03:15 public, and it can't have a chilling effect.
10:03:05:19 In other words, if you have it in an exclusive club
10:03:10:00 that is only open to members normally, then that would
10:03:12:24 be problematic because people don't feel they have the
10:03:16:27 opportunity to attend.
10:03:17:19 If it's a luncheon or a meeting where you have to
10:03:20:13 charge admission, $10 for let's say lunch or whatever,
10:03:24:21 that would be not looked upon kindly, because that
10:03:27:25 would have a chilling effect upon people.
10:03:29:24 It also has to be accessible to the handicap and it

10:03:34:07 also has to be, again, large enough to accommodate the
10:03:41:13 amount of people you reasonably anticipate.
10:03:45:12 Lastly, members of Council, there has to be minutes
10:03:48:25 taken.
10:03:49:13 They don't have to be verbatim minutes.
10:03:51:27 They don't have to be an actual transcript, but they
10:03:55:12 have to be a summary, a written summary, and those have
10:04:02:09 to be retained as a public record.
10:04:07:10 An audiotape is not required, although it is suggested.
10:04:10:18 And if an audiotape is taken, it also has to be
10:04:13:06 retained as a public record.
10:04:15:12 Now, Council, I don't want to take up too much of your
10:04:18:09 time, because I want you to be able to open your
10:04:20:19 discussion however you feel the direction you want to
10:04:25:00 take when you set this.
10:04:26:06 But what I would suggest is I would like the
10:04:31:00 opportunity at some time in the future in a less formal
10:04:33:21 circumstance, perhaps, maybe if Council should have a
10:04:36:04 strategic planning session sometime in the future, I
10:04:38:00 don't like to stand up at a lectern and actually
10:04:42:00 lecture to people who have a great deal of experience
10:04:45:06 and a great deal of -- for whom I have a great deal of
10:04:49:16 respect and are public officials.
10:04:51:01 But I would like the opportunity to talk about things
10:04:54:15 we haven't talked about in a while.

10:04:56:09 I'll have the opportunity to talk about the public
10:05:00:18 records law.
10:05:01:28 And I have very brief bullet points on that, the
10:05:05:09 purpose of public records.
10:05:06:09 If the intent is to perpetuate, communicate, or
10:05:08:24 formalize, then it becomes a public record.
10:05:12:03 And we can get into all the different variations.
10:05:14:21 But, Council, we really, since my tenure here, it's
10:05:19:19 been a while since there's been a discussion of, for
10:05:23:15 instance, the gift law, the conflict of interest law,
10:05:28:21 the honoraria law, on all the different kind of
10:05:33:27 variations that can come up.
10:05:35:03 Privilege for me to make myself available to you
10:05:37:10 individually to answer your questions, and your aide
10:05:41:00 also have questions, I'm very happy to answer them.
10:05:44:15 Mr. Smith has been very helpful.
10:05:46:16 He's actually prepared a memo for his legal staff
10:05:49:21 regarding public records law, which sing a wonderful
10:05:52:09 memo.
10:05:52:28 I don't want to plagiarize it, but maybe he would want
10:05:56:00 to share it with Council.
10:05:57:04 It's very, very helpful.
10:05:58:19 The point, Council, is that the public has a perception
10:06:03:21 and a strong desire that decisions that affect their
10:06:08:00 lives be open and transparent, and that their elected

10:06:14:27 officials do so in public and it's available to
10:06:17:18 everyone and have everyone see it.
10:06:20:06 And in that regard, perception is also very important.
10:06:24:18 And I know this Council shares that desire to have an
10:06:28:03 open government and to be transparent and to have the
10:06:30:24 people appreciate the deliberations that go into their
10:06:34:10 decision making.
10:06:35:03 So I would just ask Council to keep it at the top of
10:06:39:06 their minds that when you have a situation that you
10:06:42:15 think you have concerns about, that may be forth
10:06:45:21 coming, that you share them with myself or Mr. Smith,
10:06:48:16 and we'll work through it, because a lot of it is very
10:06:51:21 fact specific.
10:06:53:01 And I don't want to go into the minutia of it, at least
10:06:55:27 not now, not at this time, not at this workshop.
10:06:58:06 But, for instance, Council, I'll share a perception
10:07:02:12 that I'm sure people would like to individually -- it's
10:07:08:00 not intentional.
10:07:09:06 I'm sure there's no intention, but, for instance, even
10:07:12:01 something as simple as perhaps when you get a night
10:07:14:12 meeting, individual site plans and you share the site
10:07:17:06 plans because there's not enough to go around, if you
10:07:19:24 talk to each other, just asking a question,
10:07:23:16 regardless -- it may be off subject, to the people in
10:07:26:25 the audience, a perception may be what is it -- what is

10:07:31:00 it that you're saying that I'm not hearing?
10:07:34:06 What are they talking about that I don't know?
10:07:36:09 What is it that they are saying -- could what they are
10:07:40:03 saying possibly influence their decision?
10:07:42:09 And I know that's not Council's intent, and I know that
10:07:45:25 doesn't happen, but even something as simple as that
10:07:48:13 can create questions in the minds of the audience that
10:07:51:00 I'm sure this Council wishes to avoid.
10:07:53:00 Sometimes you notice that sometimes I try to very
10:07:57:03 politely suggest that you don't do that.
10:07:59:19 And just in closing, I know this is rather brief and
10:08:07:01 rather simplistic, but the point is that if one remains
10:08:15:15 sensitive to the spirit of the law, then one will be
10:08:20:21 able to at least recognize that there may be an issue.
10:08:24:21 And so long as one at least recognizes and remains
10:08:28:04 conscious of the fact that there are issues, then they
10:08:30:21 can be resolved, and the public will be well served.
10:08:33:28 And that's my initial introduction to the discussion
10:08:36:27 today.
10:08:38:24 >>MARY MULHERN: I had a couple of questions, Marty.
10:08:41:00 When you are noticing a meeting, does it have to state
10:08:50:06 who will be there?
10:08:51:22 Like, if there's a public meeting that's been noticed
10:08:54:28 but not necessarily by someone on Council, but three of
10:09:02:09 us or two of us show up, is that okay?

10:09:05:10 Or do you have to notice who is going to be there?
10:09:07:21 Just has to be a public meeting.
10:09:10:18 He's nodding his head.
10:09:16:12 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If the purpose of the meeting is to
10:09:19:03 effectuate action or to take action of a particular
10:09:23:03 body, then that body has to provide the notice in a way
10:09:28:04 that body normally does.
10:09:29:21 David, if there's anything I say you wish to add, I
10:09:33:18 don't take any offense.
10:09:34:18 I welcome your help.
10:09:35:15 So, for instance, if you go to a forum, let's say a
10:09:39:01 neighborhood forum.
10:09:40:21 And a Council member shows up, and another Council
10:09:45:21 member shows up and a third Council member shows up,
10:09:49:00 are you violating the Sunshine Law?
10:09:50:15 No, you're not.
10:09:51:18 Now, what you have to be concerned about or what one
10:09:54:21 has to be concerned about is not engaging in discussion
10:09:58:03 or debate with other Council members of any item that
10:10:02:07 could reasonably be foreseen to come before Council.
10:10:06:24 You have every right as every other private citizen
10:10:09:15 does to gather facts, to attend neighborhood meetings,
10:10:12:12 to hear community concern, and the Sunshine Law does
10:10:15:16 not act as a bar to that.
10:10:18:06 But one should remain sensitive to the fact that the

10:10:24:22 goal -- it is not a meeting of the City Council, and
10:10:27:15 the goal there is not to communicate or deliberate
10:10:30:18 amongst yourselves of the issue.
10:10:32:15 Does that answer your question?
10:10:33:27 >>MARY MULHERN: That does, and I have one more question
10:10:35:19 and this might be something David will talk about.
10:10:38:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: David would like to say something.
10:10:41:21 >> Good morning.
10:10:42:03 As you probably know, I tend to be a little more
10:10:44:10 cautious, what you heard is absolutely correct in terms
10:10:47:18 of the sunshine act.
10:10:48:10 What we have to watch out for is occasionally people
10:10:50:27 try to use our goodwill against us.
10:10:53:18 So the issue there would be whether or not we received
10:10:55:24 any information that could be in the nature of ex
10:10:57:24 parte, which can be solved by communicating that fact
10:11:01:16 when you deliberate on anything that may have been
10:11:03:27 discussed at that meeting.
10:11:04:27 That's all.
10:11:06:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That is an important distinction.
10:11:08:25 If I elaborate on that.
10:11:10:00 I was referring to things that are legislative,
10:11:12:19 generally.
10:11:13:00 If you should happen to sit in a community meeting and
10:11:15:12 a developer should walk in who will be coming before

10:11:18:21 Council in a couple of weeks and brings in a whole
10:11:21:15 bunch of sign boards for the community to see the
10:11:23:22 project and make a presentation to the community, you
10:11:26:00 as a finder of fact would be well advised to say, this
10:11:29:12 is going to be coming before Council and remove
10:11:32:09 yourself graciously from that situation so you don't
10:11:34:12 hear the presentation.
10:11:36:21 >>MARY MULHERN: Fortunately, the Neighborhood
10:11:37:09 Associations that I've gone to know the Sunshine Law
10:11:40:01 better than we do.
10:11:41:01 So they are very careful about it.
10:11:42:27 Now, my other question, and I don't know if you or
10:11:45:12 David is going to talk about this, when you talk about
10:11:49:09 public records, what does perpetuate mean with regard
10:11:52:28 to a public record?
10:11:57:09 >>DAVID SMITH: David Smith, City Attorney.
10:11:59:19 Perpetuate is an obligation for us to retain those
10:12:03:13 records.
10:12:03:28 There is -- we have a policy that is approved to
10:12:11:00 eventually eliminate old records over a period of time.
10:12:15:00 So it really does not mean forever, but it means for a
10:12:18:18 reasonable period of time.
10:12:19:10 Now, certain documents the clerk preserves literally in
10:12:21:27 perpetuity because they are official actions of this
10:12:25:00 body or other actions by the city.

10:12:26:24 But your internal communications and things of that
10:12:29:18 nature, you should preserve them and then talk to the
10:12:33:06 department about our disposal policy, and we'll help
10:12:35:28 you with that.
10:12:38:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: A couple of questions real quick and a
10:12:42:15 statement.
10:12:42:27 Most of the forums that I have gone to, even the
10:12:46:25 candidates' forum out in the community, I've always
10:12:49:16 asked them to make a public notice because you don't
10:12:51:24 want to take that chance or risk.
10:12:54:10 That's the safe way to do it.
10:12:55:21 If you're an elected official and there will be three
10:12:58:12 other people, it's best to ask them to do a public
10:13:01:24 notice.
10:13:02:06 That way you're safe.
10:13:03:13 Secondly, you may want to address this, too, are our
10:13:09:12 notes subject to the sunshine and public records?
10:13:11:12 I raise that because my first year of being elected, I
10:13:18:16 ran into this issue.
10:13:19:27 And I've heard different opinions about it.
10:13:22:21 So I want to hear again.
10:13:24:09 If you are here like now, you have notes.
10:13:31:16 >>DAVID SMITH: David Smith, City Attorney.
10:13:33:15 This is an issue I have to deal with as well because I
10:13:35:21 take notes at almost all of my meetings.

10:13:38:15 It's my understanding of the law, if you are taking
10:13:40:15 notes for your personal recollection and to refresh
10:13:43:06 your memory of what transpired and it's not for the
10:13:47:09 purpose of communicating to someone else or creating a
10:13:50:24 record of the event, as Marty indicated, you're not
10:13:53:15 memorializing an official event, those are not
10:13:56:10 disclosable under the public records law.
10:13:58:27 But, if you take those notes and you share them with
10:14:02:24 someone, you have now communicated them to someone in
10:14:04:22 the city, that makes them a public record.
10:14:07:00 So I make it a point to keep my notes in a separate
10:14:10:06 file that only I see.
10:14:11:18 That way you're safe.
10:14:14:07 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Marty, if a public meeting or a
10:14:19:19 meeting of a homeowners association takes place and
10:14:25:09 three City Council members happen to appear there, it's
10:14:28:27 an unnoticed meeting, an issue comes up and one of the
10:14:33:15 councillors gives their opinion and then someone else
10:14:37:25 offers their opinion on the same subject, that should
10:14:40:22 not happen?
10:14:42:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That's correct, sir.
10:14:43:09 That is very succinctly put, yes.
10:14:51:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Before you move past that subject,
10:14:54:15 because I just wanted to chime in on something that was
10:14:57:21 said a little earlier, going back to what you said

10:15:01:13 earlier, if they notice it and three of us show up, you
10:15:08:06 still aren't clear yet.
10:15:10:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.
10:15:11:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Because in addition to being
10:15:12:06 noticed, it still -- there still has to be some sort of
10:15:16:01 minutes taken as to what transpired and those minutes,
10:15:19:25 I assume, have to be, I guess preserved or typically we
10:15:22:24 would just give them to the clerk.
10:15:24:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: They are public record, and they have
10:15:26:16 to be protected as a public record.
10:15:28:06 I go back to those three -- those are the three
10:15:31:04 requirements of that statute.
10:15:33:13 And just to have notice in and of itself is
10:15:35:24 insufficient.
10:15:36:12 It has to be minutes taken and available to the public.
10:15:41:12 Somebody who wants to have -- you know, to see -- to
10:15:46:10 refer to what happened.
10:15:47:03 With regard to one's private notes, if you take your
10:15:49:15 private notes that you write down and you want to have
10:15:53:00 access to it and you have it transferred, you have your
10:15:56:00 aide or whatever make your private notes, obviously
10:15:59:24 formalized with the purpose of perpetuating it, then
10:16:03:07 you have taken your own private notes and have made
10:16:05:15 them in effect a public record, even though you haven't
10:16:08:06 shared them necessarily with somebody else with the

10:16:10:12 intent to communicate it.
10:16:12:00 It's a fine distinction, but it is a distinction.
10:16:15:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I ran into that issue early on in my
10:16:19:19 first year, Tampa General -- I took notes, in the
10:16:24:09 process, I later tore the notes up and a reporter saw
10:16:28:21 me and he said you just destroyed public record.
10:16:31:12 We went through this whole issue.
10:16:33:04 So I had to get the County Attorney involved in that.
10:16:35:22 That's why I raise it.
10:16:37:10 You need to know.
10:16:38:10 Very thin line on some of these issues.
10:16:44:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If you write a note and then show it
10:16:46:27 to somebody, it then becomes a public record, if it's
10:16:50:06 done in your role as City Council member.
10:16:54:01 >>MARY MULHERN: I wanted to follow up on what
10:16:56:06 Mr. Caetano was asking.
10:16:58:10 So you're at a meeting that has met the sunshine
10:17:05:03 requirement, and then you're speaking, you still
10:17:10:00 shouldn't be speaking on an issue that will come before
10:17:13:10 you, isn't that correct?
10:17:14:15 Is that correct?
10:17:15:18 Like, if there's an issue -- you're at this meeting and
10:17:19:25 you're talking about, say, the green building
10:17:23:03 ordinance, as long as it's a noticed meeting in an
10:17:27:16 accessible location, it's okay to talk about issues

10:17:31:12 that we might be voting on later as long as we don't
10:17:34:21 vote on them?
10:17:36:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Here's what I think is important with
10:17:39:27 regard to notice.
10:17:41:15 The notice has to be in a way that when somebody wants
10:17:45:07 to discover whether the City Council or whatever board
10:17:48:25 you sit on is going to be taking up an issue, that the
10:17:51:27 notice be in a place where the people who are
10:17:54:15 interested in the City Council will see that notice.
10:17:57:22 So a notice of a Neighborhood Association that is
10:18:00:10 mailed out to all its members or put on its bulletin
10:18:04:00 board where the location is is not a notice that would
10:18:07:00 comply with the notice requirements of the Tampa City
10:18:10:16 Council.
10:18:10:27 It would have to be downstairs through your normal
10:18:13:25 process, through the clerk's office, on the Web site,
10:18:16:10 on the agenda, so that people would know if they want
10:18:18:24 to know if the City Council is going to be taking up
10:18:21:25 any sort of matter, possibly, that they have access,
10:18:25:27 and they can make the self-determination of whether
10:18:30:06 they want to attend and participate.
10:18:32:00 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
10:18:32:21 So if it's properly noticed through this body, and we
10:18:37:03 talk about issues that may come in front of us, that's
10:18:39:24 okay as long as we don't take -- we can't take

10:18:43:00 action -- or we could, right?
10:18:46:22 No, you can't.
10:18:48:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If it is noticed as a regular meeting
10:18:50:00 or if it is noticed as a meeting of the City Council,
10:18:53:07 if the purpose of the subject matter is sufficiently
10:18:59:00 delineated on that notice, if that notice states that
10:19:03:21 if people wish to appeal it, they also have the right
10:19:06:19 to have it transferred, a verbatim transcript taken, or
10:19:09:16 whatever, ADA accessibility, the requirement, and most
10:19:12:12 important, that minutes are taken and perpetuated
10:19:14:27 through the process normally through the clerk's office
10:19:17:10 or given to the clerk, then the answer is yes.
10:19:19:21 You could take up -- this Council can convene meetings
10:19:23:09 off-site at other locations on other days on matters
10:19:27:15 that it wishes to take up, and it would meet the public
10:19:32:06 meetings law and the notice requirements.
10:19:34:27 >>MARY MULHERN: I guess that's fine, but then I'm
10:19:38:27 taking it further.
10:19:40:03 I mean, I wouldn't ever foresee doing this, and I don't
10:19:44:18 think we, at least my long tenure here of one year,
10:19:48:24 we've never tried to take an action at something that
10:19:51:28 wasn't a regular meeting.
10:19:54:03 But the discussion is fine as long as it meets the
10:19:57:06 notice requirements.
10:19:59:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And the locational criteria.

10:20:02:24 >>MARY MULHERN: The public meeting requirement.
10:20:05:21 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes.
10:20:06:22 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: If this takes place, what Mary is
10:20:06:22 talking about, let's say three people on this council
10:20:06:22 go to a particular meeting, you don't have a quorum so
10:20:06:22 you don't have a meeting.
10:20:16:27 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No, you don't.
10:20:17:24 That's true.
10:20:18:21 You're absolutely right.
10:20:20:25 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: You need four people.
10:20:22:13 Is it still illegal to partake in a conversation that
10:20:30:21 another City Councilor has taken?
10:20:36:21 >>DAVID SMITH: I'm sorry, I missed --
10:20:39:07 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: The whole thing is, you need a quorum
10:20:41:03 to have a City Council meeting no matter where it's at.
10:20:43:21 And only three people show up or two people, can they
10:20:47:12 interact to each other even though there's no quorum?
10:20:52:13 >>DAVID SMITH: You're talking about a noticed meeting.
10:20:55:09 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: A noticed meeting.
10:20:57:03 City Council will be present or however they phrase it,
10:21:00:04 and then only three people show up, so you don't have a
10:21:03:10 quorum, so it's not a City Council meeting.
10:21:07:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: My advice would be no.
10:21:09:09 >>DAVID SMITH: Generally speaking, since you have to
10:21:10:24 have four Council members to take any action, it would

10:21:14:19 be imprudent to move forward.
10:21:16:25 Exactly how that would be analyzed under the law --
10:21:19:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Not talking about moving forward.
10:21:21:04 Talking about -- communicating with each other.
10:21:25:03 >>DAVID SMITH: Well, what I'm thinking about is also
10:21:27:00 your workshop sessions that you're talking about
10:21:30:25 having, if you have them on Thursdays here, and you
10:21:33:00 only have three people, you can still have that
10:21:35:27 discussion.
10:21:36:12 The clerk will be here.
10:21:37:12 The clerk will record it, so we have opined in the past
10:21:41:06 that you can do that.
10:21:42:03 Now, those are not for the purpose of taking any
10:21:44:21 actions.
10:21:45:24 Those are for the purpose of obtaining input and having
10:21:49:00 a discussion.
10:21:49:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And I think that's the key issue.
10:21:53:03 You have to have a quorum in order to take action.
10:21:55:12 But you don't have to have a quorum in order to have a
10:21:57:09 meeting.
10:21:58:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I think the distinction, though, is
10:21:59:21 the special discussion meetings are noticed meetings of
10:22:02:09 business of the Tampa City Council noticed through
10:22:04:15 general requirements through the clerk's office through
10:22:08:00 the Web site, through the agenda, people are on notice.

10:22:10:24 Those are made by motion here at a public meeting
10:22:14:21 sanctioned by a vote of four as opposed to
10:22:16:28 Mr. Caetano's question, which is just showing up at a
10:22:21:16 meeting --
10:22:26:24 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Let's say some homeowners association
10:22:28:21 calls a meeting, and they say it's going to be a public
10:22:31:15 meeting, a City Council meeting, and only three people
10:22:35:04 show up from the Council, so you don't have a Council
10:22:38:16 meeting because you don't have a quorum.
10:22:40:24 >>DAVID SMITH: No, but if you have noticed a specific
10:22:42:28 topic and it meets the other requirements of the
10:22:45:01 sunshine act, you may speak on that topic, which is an
10:22:49:03 issue I'd like to emphasize, because you don't prepare
10:22:51:24 your own notices, but nonetheless, you are held account
10:22:56:15 to believe that standard.
10:22:57:07 So I would suggest that you individually make sure you
10:23:00:06 read a notice of any meeting that you attend so that
10:23:03:12 any participation you have stays within the confines of
10:23:07:15 that notice.
10:23:08:09 And that's a sticky issue.
10:23:11:16 But if it's a specifically noticed meeting for a
10:23:16:00 specific topic, you can discuss that topic.
10:23:21:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Okay.
10:23:22:06 That's it?
10:23:24:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is that what Council wished to have

10:23:27:04 accomplished today?
10:23:28:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
10:23:30:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Again --
10:23:32:03 >>DAVID SMITH: There's just one more thing I would like
10:23:33:18 to add.
10:23:34:03 The issue with regard to notes is a little bit more
10:23:38:03 fluid, and I want to make sure I provide you all of
10:23:41:15 that.
10:23:41:27 But I won't do that now.
10:23:43:15 What I'll do is I'll send you a memorandum, as is
10:23:46:24 typically the case, you have a lot of interpretations.
10:23:49:15 Once your personal notes are prepared for the purpose
10:23:52:09 of perpetuating the record, communicating, or
10:23:55:21 memorializing what happened, we move into the public
10:23:58:19 record arena.
10:23:59:15 So let me get you a memo on that that will provide
10:24:02:18 those differences clearly for you.
10:24:04:00 And one last thing, Marty knows all the answers to
10:24:07:12 these questions as well, partly he's been deferring to
10:24:10:06 me because my opinion gives us the protection under the
10:24:14:09 charter.
10:24:15:06 I can't think of any instance in which we've differed
10:24:17:15 on the sunshine act or the public records law.
10:24:20:10 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Well, things are different over in
10:24:21:22 Largo anyway.

10:24:23:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, Council, I think that both
10:24:25:00 Mr. Smith and myself are cautious and very protective
10:24:31:16 of this Council.
10:24:32:12 And we mean no offense, and we mean not to cast any
10:24:36:10 aspersions.
10:24:37:15 We know this Council certainly serves the people well
10:24:43:13 and certainly the intent is to have open and
10:24:46:10 transparent government.
10:24:47:03 Our job is to assist you in serving your constituents.
10:24:51:00 So to that end, we make ourselves available.
10:24:53:18 Thank you.
10:24:54:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:24:54:13 And we appreciate the two of you doing this.
10:24:56:16 We now go to comprehensive plan, Planning Commission
10:24:59:28 staff.
10:25:04:24 >> Thank you.
10:25:05:24 Ray Chiaramonte, assistant director of the Planning
10:25:08:00 Commission.
10:25:08:25 I wanted to start by following up a little bit on
10:25:11:27 TBARTA's presentation and just remind that you the new
10:25:14:21 comprehensive plan very much supports the direction
10:25:16:13 they are going to in their goals for mobility.
10:25:18:22 It directs and concentrates growth and development
10:25:22:15 within three anchors, downtown, Westshore and USF and
10:25:25:15 connects the big anchors with transit emphasis road

10:25:28:12 corridors that will become mixed use corridor villages
10:25:31:00 with transit supported land uses and connections,
10:25:33:12 again, between these big areas.
10:25:35:21 The new plan is mobility enhanced and ready.
10:25:39:15 The idea is to have a plan that we're ready to accept
10:25:42:09 whatever transit plans come into play.
10:25:44:07 There's supposed to be some graphics with this.
10:25:54:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's the title page.
10:25:57:03 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: It has a map on it.
10:26:02:27 All right, the main thing we want to talk about today
10:26:04:19 is growth management, the city's form and the
10:26:08:01 comprehensive plan.
10:26:08:21 We'll give you some examples from the plan to
10:26:11:16 illustrate how we're working toward building our
10:26:13:27 livable city.
10:26:14:27 First of all, what does growth management mean?
10:26:17:16 The nutshell is, it means ensuring there's enough
10:26:21:16 planned land for future population growth and
10:26:23:19 employment, that the growth goes into the areas where
10:26:25:19 it's best suited and that we capitalize on the
10:26:28:24 opportunities that the growth can bring.
10:26:30:06 We want to direct growth and focus growth into business
10:26:35:01 centers, mixed-use corridor villages and future transit
10:26:38:10 station areas.
10:26:38:25 One way to focus that growth is to give the areas where

10:26:41:21 you want growth to go, plan categories that permit
10:26:45:09 substantial development.
10:26:46:09 Examples of how to direct growth.
10:26:52:15 There are three business centers.
10:26:54:03 Each one has a future land use category that allows
10:26:58:00 substantial development potential.
10:26:59:10 For example, downtown in the planned CBD, has no maps
10:27:03:28 on density or intensity.
10:27:05:09 So that is certainly an area where growth is promoted.
10:27:08:07 The Westshore business district is part of an area-wide
10:27:11:28 development of regional impact and planned heavily with
10:27:14:06 regional mixed use 100, which permits up to 100
10:27:17:01 dwelling units per acre and floor area ratio of 3.5.
10:27:21:19 We have opportunities for growth to occur in that area.
10:27:24:00 University of South Florida is planned public, semi
10:27:26:09 public, which allows for almost any type of zoning and
10:27:29:00 use which serves the public purpose on the campus site.
10:27:31:15 Many of the proposed mixed-use corridor villages, which
10:27:36:10 are transit emphasis corridors, we coordinated with the
10:27:39:06 MPO and Hartline on future bus lines and other transit
10:27:43:03 emphasis corridors are planned with a land use category
10:27:46:13 you presently have called heavy commercial 24, which
10:27:50:13 throw in a personal opinion is like my least favorite
10:27:53:07 category in your Tampa comprehensive plan.
10:27:54:21 So we're changing that category to community commercial

10:27:59:01 35 to try to promote more of a mixture of uses along
10:28:02:25 these corridors and to allow us to redevelop these
10:28:05:13 corridors.
10:28:06:03 This will allow a bump jump in density from 24 to 35
10:28:10:06 units per acre as an incentive to provide transition
10:28:12:22 from heavy commercial uses to also add in mixed use
10:28:16:22 residential along these corridors where we are planning
10:28:19:13 to have bus lines or already have bus lines or transit
10:28:23:15 corridors.
10:28:24:00 An example might be Florida Avenue, north Florida
10:28:26:16 Avenue.
10:28:26:27 Regarding rail transit, the exact location of future
10:28:32:09 transit station has not, as you're aware, been exactly
10:28:35:06 determined yet, but we have provided language that
10:28:37:15 identify four types of stations with minimum defined
10:28:40:13 floor area ratios, employment density, which is a new
10:28:43:12 concept we haven't had in the plan, mixed uses,
10:28:47:00 residential only standards, depending on the type of
10:28:49:06 station it is.
10:28:50:06 For example, development in and around the zone of
10:28:52:18 influence of a high density urban station such as
10:28:55:19 downtown will have suggested minimum thresholds
10:28:58:01 defined.
10:28:59:09 For the high density urban stations, that would be a
10:29:01:15 minimum of a 3.0 floor area ratio employment density of

10:29:05:07 at least 150 jobs per acre or mixed use development of
10:29:08:18 at least 20 dwelling units per acre and employment
10:29:12:04 density of at least 50 jobs per acre.
10:29:14:21 Or residential development only of at least 50 dwelling
10:29:18:12 units per acre.
10:29:18:27 Similar standards have been suggested for the three
10:29:21:00 other station types, mixed use regional stations,
10:29:24:06 Westshore, community center stations, example
10:29:27:27 Hillsborough Avenue just east of 22nd Street and
10:29:30:28 neighborhood stations, an example would be Sulphur
10:29:33:04 Springs.
10:29:34:03 It's important to note that the area plans for each of
10:29:36:06 these future rail stations will have to be completed
10:29:39:00 when we have decided on a system.
10:29:41:00 So what would happen is, plans would be done for each
10:29:45:04 station area that are very individual to that
10:29:46:27 particular neighborhood where the station is being
10:29:48:25 planned to try to promote the exact type of development
10:29:52:07 we want to support the rail system.
10:29:56:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Do you want us to interrupt or wait
10:29:58:00 until you are finished?
10:29:59:22 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll wait, if you would rather wait.
10:30:01:18 >>GWEN MILLER: We'll wait until you are finished with
10:30:03:09 the presentation.
10:30:04:24 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: And we can come back to these very

10:30:07:06 easily.
10:30:07:15 An important thing and we touched upon this last time,
10:30:10:12 how to direct roads for infrastructure planning.
10:30:13:00 Some examples of how this will be done, each year the
10:30:15:24 Planning Commission will provide the city detailed
10:30:17:27 population and employment analysis to help the city
10:30:20:16 identify growth areas and projects that might be
10:30:22:15 needed.
10:30:24:01 Prioritize capital improvements in the annual capital
10:30:26:06 improvements plan to direct growth.
10:30:28:15 Upsize facilities as they need to be replaced.
10:30:30:27 Have city departments identify their list of upgrades
10:30:33:10 needed and review them regularly and have
10:30:36:12 differentiated fees for infrastructure in different
10:30:38:28 parts of the city.
10:30:39:21 This is something that we're still discussing with the
10:30:41:27 city at this point in time.
10:30:43:09 Going into the residential neighborhoods and the urban
10:30:49:13 villages, which are usually outside of the districts of
10:30:52:24 heavy development proposal, only modest growth really
10:30:56:21 is directed to take place in these areas.
10:30:59:18 And this is very consistent with what is already on the
10:31:02:03 future land use map or with community plans that have
10:31:05:00 already been developed.
10:31:06:09 Two examples, for example, Wellswood is a residential

10:31:09:21 neighborhood inside of a heritage district.
10:31:12:12 Right now it has a planned residential 10 designation.
10:31:15:10 Again, just because it's in the district, we don't
10:31:17:10 expect it to grow and change much from its present
10:31:20:09 density.
10:31:20:21 Growth and change will be based on what the residential
10:31:23:04 10 district allows and permits in that area.
10:31:25:15 Another example would be Tampa Heights.
10:31:28:12 The village center is planned for community mixed
10:31:30:15 use-35, but it is underdeveloped at this time based on
10:31:34:19 what community mixed use-35 permits.
10:31:36:21 So growth and change in this urban village will occur
10:31:39:21 based on what the present plan categories permit.
10:31:42:15 In this case, the village center may intensify with
10:31:44:18 mid-rise, mixed-use type of development that would
10:31:47:21 change the area from what it is now, but be consistent
10:31:50:09 with what we're planning for the area.
10:31:51:24 Again, talking about getting transit ready and becoming
10:31:57:12 more mobile.
10:31:58:12 Future development in the business centers and in the
10:32:00:18 mixed use corridor villages, which are our transit
10:32:03:13 emphasis corridors, streets like Hillsborough Avenue,
10:32:06:18 Dale Mabry, must be built in a transit friendly manner.
10:32:09:24 Mixed-use buildings are preferred over single-use ones.
10:32:14:06 Residential incentives to develop mixed-use corridor

10:32:14:15 villages, we talked about that new category of
10:32:17:18 community commercial 35 to try to create very appealing
10:32:21:12 streetscapes for pedestrians and transit interface.
10:32:24:15 Just to remind you, again, every transit trip starts on
10:32:28:18 your two legs, basically, in creating an environment
10:32:31:00 that is supportive of pedestrians.
10:32:33:07 It's automatically supportive of transit.
10:32:35:16 Partnerships.
10:32:38:04 Ongoing support and coordination for the big economic
10:32:40:21 engines in the smaller local business groups are
10:32:44:00 important.
10:32:44:15 Example from the plan is policy directives that call
10:32:48:01 for economic development alliances with local groups to
10:32:51:21 stimulate business and to identify and address business
10:32:54:06 needs.
10:32:54:12 Examples of the groups representing the big economic
10:32:57:18 engines in Tampa include the Downtown Partnership,
10:33:00:12 Westshore alliance, the greater Tampa Chamber of
10:33:03:00 Commerce, and the University of South Florida.
10:33:05:09 Smaller groups include business groups such as the
10:33:07:25 business guild of Seminole Heights.
10:33:09:03 I think in the past, there hasn't been enough
10:33:12:04 coordination between planners, long-range planners and
10:33:15:13 these type of organizations and even the jurisdictions
10:33:17:24 in these types of organizations.

10:33:20:03 There's a lot to be said from working together on some
10:33:22:27 of these problems, and it has been a trend we want to
10:33:25:15 accelerate even more in the future.
10:33:26:24 So having more regional participation to resolve
10:33:30:09 interjurisdictional issues, we talked about TBARTA,
10:33:32:19 "One Bay," again, an example, in the plan is
10:33:37:00 coordinating with TBARTA on mobility needs.
10:33:39:15 Since I mentioned one bay, I want to bring up something
10:33:42:12 occurring at the county, there's a discussion of
10:33:44:19 proceeding with what might be called a 2050 vision, and
10:33:47:24 the board at their last meeting directed the staff at
10:33:50:19 the Planning Commission and county to kind of see how
10:33:53:00 we can work with "One Bay" to go in that direction.
10:33:55:03 We have been doing that, but it's clear to us that what
10:33:59:06 one bay is doing will be a very general division for
10:34:02:22 the region and at some point we need to go to a more
10:34:05:18 detailed level.
10:34:06:03 I brought up that I think it's extremely important that
10:34:08:06 the three cities of Hillsborough County get involved in
10:34:09:28 this effort, because any decisions made for a long-term
10:34:12:19 vision do affect the cities, which the county agreed is
10:34:16:09 a good idea, as did "One Bay."
10:34:18:09 So at some point, we'll be asking for staff
10:34:23:24 participation in this effort as it evolves.
10:34:25:12 I believe it's going back to the Board of County

10:34:27:04 Commissioners this coming Wednesday to discuss.
10:34:29:24 But I think it is important that the cities be involved
10:34:32:15 in this effort.
10:34:33:06 Urban dine is another important component of the plan.
10:34:37:27 We'll use urban design standards to create livability,
10:34:41:09 sense of place, attractiveness, economic opportunity,
10:34:44:10 enhance mobility, mixture of uses, again, healthy open
10:34:48:12 spaces.
10:34:48:22 You know, again, a sense of place provides spaces for
10:34:52:15 gathering.
10:34:52:25 It creates a focal point for pedestrian-oriented
10:34:56:01 development.
10:34:56:12 Compatible design, economic opportunity, creates spaces
10:35:00:15 for meetings, strolling, sitting, watching.
10:35:03:15 These are all important parts of how cities function.
10:35:05:21 So it's important that the plan accents these types of
10:35:10:01 directions, and it does.
10:35:11:06 Asset building.
10:35:12:12 Build up the community's asset.
10:35:14:00 This has been an important component of our plan.
10:35:16:21 Timeless assets.
10:35:18:06 Leverage their value.
10:35:19:13 Again, the things that make Tampa special, to accent
10:35:22:01 those and reinforce those, rather than do things that
10:35:25:00 will undermine those assets.

10:35:26:15 Many of the policy areas are already in the existing
10:35:29:00 plan are already being carried over to the new one and
10:35:32:15 enhanced in a greater way.
10:35:33:21 Major changes to the way we look at them now.
10:35:35:25 We are considering them as assets, things that add
10:35:38:21 value to the city.
10:35:39:21 How we build upon those is a new topic.
10:35:41:21 For example, Bayshore Boulevard, obviously, you
10:35:43:16 recently adopted policy directives to protect and
10:35:46:09 enhance that asset in a plan amendment last year.
10:35:48:27 This is the type of things we see in the future for
10:35:51:27 other assets in the city such as the historical
10:35:54:21 districts.
10:35:55:01 The plan establishes a public purpose that the assets
10:35:57:22 of the city add value to the city, and it's in the
10:36:00:18 city's interest to protect these assets and enhance
10:36:03:16 them in a way that increases that value and does not
10:36:05:16 diminish the asset itself.
10:36:06:24 Areas of stability, these are the areas outside of the
10:36:09:25 districts, largely the residential neighborhoods, some
10:36:12:12 in North Tampa, some in south Tampa.
10:36:14:12 They are mostly single-family residential
10:36:17:04 suburban-scale neighborhoods.
10:36:19:03 There are four types of these neighborhoods identified.
10:36:21:19 We have multifamily neighborhoods such as Rocky Point.

10:36:24:24 We have our traditional urban preworld War II
10:36:27:24 neighborhoods, Seminole Heights, Temple Crest, Davis
10:36:30:21 Islands, areas like that.
10:36:32:21 Suburban Forest Hills and Beach Park, contemporary
10:36:36:00 Tampa Palms, Grand Hampton areas.
10:36:38:01 So there are different issues in each of these
10:36:41:12 neighborhoods that are designed in a different way.
10:36:42:27 Some designated roadways that will become mixed use
10:36:46:03 corridor villages in the plan.
10:36:47:10 Examples again, Gandy Boulevard, Dale Mabry,
10:36:49:16 Hillsborough.
10:36:50:09 The goal is to stabilize and strengthen residential
10:36:52:25 neighborhoods, create vibrant mixed use corridor
10:36:55:25 villages and make these areas very appealing and
10:36:57:28 livable.
10:36:58:28 Making the area, how we'll make the areas appealing as
10:37:04:03 we develop.
10:37:05:21 We're only going to allow modest growth in the
10:37:08:04 residential neighborhoods consistent with what the plan
10:37:10:09 presently allows.
10:37:13:00 New provisions in the plan describe how to do this.
10:37:15:09 We're going to discourage plan amendments in these
10:37:16:27 areas.
10:37:17:22 Stablizing and strengthening our residential
10:37:22:00 neighborhoods and making them appealing and livable are

10:37:23:12 established as a public purpose.
10:37:24:18 Plan amendment requests must demonstrate how they are
10:37:26:27 consistent with the concept.
10:37:28:00 Community planning through form based codes will be
10:37:29:27 important.
10:37:30:09 This will establish guidelines for future development
10:37:32:22 based on existing condition and desired character of
10:37:35:19 what we want to see happen.
10:37:37:15 Again, creating distinctive neighborhoods with more
10:37:40:24 compatible development.
10:37:41:19 Allow growth in the mixed use corridor villages.
10:37:44:15 The plan recognizes in order to slow growth in
10:37:47:12 residential neighborhoods there has to be a trade-off
10:37:50:06 for us to accommodate the population growth coming.
10:37:52:19 And the trade-off is allowing increased development in
10:37:55:09 transit emphasis corridors, we're able to serve those
10:37:58:09 people with transit other than just the automobile.
10:38:00:06 So infrastructure becomes a mean to manage that growth.
10:38:03:24 We need to focus on replacing aging infrastructure,
10:38:06:09 improving capacity to areas to meet backlog demands.
10:38:09:12 Secondly, the focus to improve capacity in areas where
10:38:11:21 growth is known and expected such as areas like
10:38:14:06 rattlesnake point.
10:38:15:12 Getting transit ready.
10:38:17:04 Again, transit emphasis corridors in the areas of

10:38:19:27 stability will be transformed into mixed use corridor
10:38:22:10 villages with transit supportive mixed use development.
10:38:24:24 We want to group these neighborhoods around existing
10:38:27:25 commercial centers and form -- in a form that will be
10:38:30:16 built that kind of reflects that idea.
10:38:32:12 Pedestrian connections to these centers will be
10:38:34:21 created.
10:38:35:13 One example would be Britton Plaza.
10:38:38:15 Obviously this is an opportunity for some type of
10:38:40:09 development to enhance its place in the neighborhood,
10:38:43:06 already a bus transit station now to enhance its
10:38:45:25 pedestrian orientation, residential uses could possibly
10:38:48:18 be added in the future as occurring across the country.
10:38:53:06 A lot of these '60s type strip developments are
10:38:55:03 turning into mixed use developments.
10:38:56:25 Partnerships with neighborhoods is important,
10:39:01:07 protecting the building quality of life is important
10:39:05:12 component of the plan.
10:39:06:12 New provisions for what we call community capacity
10:39:09:09 building, and that really means taking talents that
10:39:14:00 exist within that neighborhood and building upon them.
10:39:15:27 The energy, the involvement of the people of the
10:39:17:15 neighborhoods, empowering and using those
10:39:19:22 neighborhoods' capacity so they can help themselves.
10:39:22:13 Tampa Heights was a great example of that concept of

10:39:25:07 community capacity building when we did their plans a
10:39:27:12 few years ago where they were extremely involved in the
10:39:31:00 planning process.
10:39:31:27 When we talk about community capacity, again, it's
10:39:34:21 taking advantage of the neighborhood's resources.
10:39:37:03 The neighborhood element you have in your existing plan
10:39:39:06 has been carried over into the new plan, program
10:39:42:00 references have been updated.
10:39:43:21 The elements support, protect, enhance the
10:39:47:06 neighborhood.
10:39:47:18 We have identified new community partners.
10:39:50:15 Partners such as the children's board to engage in
10:39:53:06 dialogue on appropriate matters.
10:39:55:12 Purpose is to draw upon that expertise and resources of
10:39:59:10 existing institutions and organizations who also need
10:40:01:13 to partner with the city.
10:40:03:21 Urban design standards, to create livability.
10:40:05:25 Some examples from the plan, redevelopment should
10:40:08:01 enhance neighborhood characteristics, reinforce
10:40:10:21 neighborhood edges.
10:40:11:15 There should be harmony and transition between new and
10:40:14:12 old buildings.
10:40:15:06 Provide vertical closure to a street so it creates a
10:40:18:06 feeling of an outdoor space.
10:40:20:01 Community planning through form-based -- will develop

10:40:23:06 certain urban design standards in our neighborhoods.
10:40:25:16 Just to conclude, growth management touches upon many
10:40:29:06 different areas in making it work better in a holistic
10:40:32:01 way.
10:40:32:15 Again, this plan is -- it's a new plan for Tampa, and
10:40:37:09 it's a very ambitious project.
10:40:39:06 I want to let you know that there will be a new draft
10:40:41:21 of the plan.
10:40:42:15 It will be created shortly beginning of April prior to
10:40:47:06 the Planning Commission's workshop.
10:40:48:15 For our audience at home, if they want to view the
10:40:52:25 current draft of the plan and when the new plan becomes
10:40:55:06 available, it's WWW.plan2025.org.
10:40:59:18 Since we put it on there, we've had over 2,400 page
10:41:04:07 views of people going to that Web site.
10:41:06:24 As I said, a third draft will be available on the Web
10:41:09:25 site shortly.
10:41:11:09 And the Planning Commission's workshop, the first
10:41:13:12 workshop with them is Monday, April 14th after the
10:41:16:03 regular 2:00 meeting.
10:41:17:21 The Planning Commission public hearing is Monday
10:41:20:12 May 12th at 5:30.
10:41:22:04 And Tampa City Council's transmittal public hearing is
10:41:24:24 Thursday, June 26th.
10:41:26:16 I would encourage you to keep reviewing the plan and

10:41:30:21 let us know any questions you have.
10:41:33:21 We'll certainly try to answer them or concerns that you
10:41:36:01 have or things that we need to emphasize in this
10:41:39:07 process.
10:41:39:18 Certainly, to really understand it, you will have to go
10:41:44:00 through it.
10:41:44:18 I would probably, if you haven't done it yet, tell you
10:41:46:21 to wait until the next draft is done since there are
10:41:50:04 substantial changes, redundancies removed, clearer
10:41:54:24 focus on what we're trying to do.
10:41:55:24 With that, I'll be happy to attempt to answer any
10:41:57:27 questions you have.
10:42:02:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:42:03:00 Great report.
10:42:03:15 I feel very good about the direction that we're moving
10:42:05:10 in.
10:42:05:21 Two quick questions.
10:42:08:18 I know that you're using the expertise that we have
10:42:12:03 from previous investments we've made in plans.
10:42:15:12 There was a plan made for transportation oriented
10:42:19:18 development developed by Bill Boothe when he was in the
10:42:21:28 private sector about six years ago, it was excellent.
10:42:24:15 I mean, it was just fantastic.
10:42:26:07 Did you use some of that thinking?
10:42:28:13 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Yes.

10:42:28:24 I thought that he was still at the Planning Commission
10:42:31:15 when he developed that plan.
10:42:33:00 But I could be wrong.
10:42:34:03 Yes, we actually did dig that out and use it for some
10:42:37:12 of the policies
10:42:38:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It was really, really good work.
10:42:42:27 Secondly, when you show us a map of the City of Tampa,
10:42:46:24 it is to me like the bagel hole and we're missing the
10:42:50:00 bagel.
10:42:50:15 And when I saw a picture of the county's plan, it looks
10:42:53:06 like the bagel without the hole.
10:42:54:21 I think that it does a disservice to all of us to look
10:42:58:00 at ourselves in isolation.
10:42:59:28 And I think in the future, we really need the context
10:43:02:21 of what is right next to us, particularly in terms of
10:43:06:01 land use and transportation.
10:43:07:15 I would encourage you to do that.
10:43:09:22 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Okay.
10:43:10:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Lastly, you showed us this great
10:43:12:21 picture of sort of a '40s bungalow, talking about
10:43:16:28 Wellswood, you talked about the existing land use
10:43:21:09 being, underlying land use being RS-10, Mr. Garcia
10:43:27:10 never says no to anything that comes before us.
10:43:30:12 And I've been told rarely, very rarely, and I've been
10:43:34:09 told this because our comprehensive plan that's

10:43:36:10 existing doesn't give him the rationale to ever say no.
10:43:40:28 So I just want to make sure that in the future we have
10:43:44:21 that in our plan that context in terms -- we have many
10:43:50:15 neighborhoods in Tampa where it's all single-family
10:43:54:09 residential, and the zoning is all multifamily
10:43:57:24 residential.
10:43:58:09 And we have this disconnect.
10:43:59:27 But he is never able to say, no, it doesn't fit because
10:44:04:15 of our existing plan.
10:44:05:15 I just want to make sure that the new plan will give
10:44:07:24 him the tools he needs to be able to say no, what is
10:44:12:00 proposed is not consistent.
10:44:13:21 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Okay.
10:44:14:03 And I do want to say something about that.
10:44:16:01 First of all, one thing you have to understand, most of
10:44:18:04 the --
10:44:19:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It's not that we don't love him
10:44:20:22 intensely.
10:44:23:21 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Most of the noes are said prior to
10:44:25:16 -- remember, you only get the best.
10:44:25:24 There are, like, three times as many proposals that
10:44:28:00 come in our office.
10:44:29:03 Most developers won't go forward with something that
10:44:31:03 we're telling them that, you know, is absolutely -- so
10:44:33:28 you're getting the cream of the crop when it comes

10:44:35:28 here.
10:44:36:06 You don't realize how many people come in with ideas
10:44:40:04 that are derailed early in the process.
10:44:43:09 People want to do all kinds of things that are just so
10:44:48:18 out of the box, we basically tell them we could
10:44:50:21 never -- so the ones that come are ones that there
10:44:52:28 might be some possibility.
10:44:53:24 You don't get to see us say the noes, but the noes are
10:44:58:03 said.
10:44:58:13 So you're dealing with the best of the proposals,
10:45:01:04 usually unless somebody really likes to be punished or
10:45:04:06 something and comes forward, which some people do.
10:45:08:27 But there will be a lot more tools in this plan talking
10:45:12:06 about character and things like that that can be used
10:45:14:19 to make decisions like that.
10:45:16:15 That doesn't mean that you're not going to have still
10:45:19:15 residents against a particular development.
10:45:21:00 You'll just have more guidance on what you can do with
10:45:24:04 that.
10:45:28:28 >>JULIA COLE: I would like to add something to that
10:45:30:09 that might be helpful.
10:45:31:21 I think the benefit to the comprehensive plan that's
10:45:33:19 moving forward today is it's a much more focused plan.
10:45:39:12 The plan you have today is broad.
10:45:41:24 It doesn't have a vision in it.

10:45:43:21 It doesn't have a focus in it.
10:45:45:09 And this will be, I think, also easier for you to
10:45:48:10 understand as well as more focused.
10:45:50:22 So, remember, just because you may have a
10:45:53:06 recommendation that is consistent, that doesn't mean
10:45:56:00 that there are not other policies in the plan that you
10:46:00:03 could utilize and say, we love you, Mr. Garcia, or we
10:46:04:21 love you whoever the planner is, but we think it's
10:46:07:06 inconsistent with this policy.
10:46:07:27 The problem with your plan today, it's so unfocused and
10:46:11:15 so broad, that opportunity doesn't exist.
10:46:13:21 That's why I think this is such a good step, in my
10:46:16:28 experience, moving forward, because it will give you
10:46:18:27 these tools and make them more readily available to
10:46:21:04 you.
10:46:25:15 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I want to add on one thing.
10:46:27:03 One of the things you have to understand, again, we do
10:46:29:10 review -- I'm glad you brought that up -- for
10:46:31:15 consistency or inconsistency.
10:46:32:15 We're not saying approve it or don't approve it.
10:46:35:22 We're telling you this development is consistent with
10:46:37:12 the plan.
10:46:38:00 You have the final word on whether to agree if it's
10:46:41:13 consistent with the plan or not.
10:46:42:21 We're just advising in that sense.

10:46:44:15 Sometimes developments we hate are consistent with the
10:46:47:19 plan.
10:46:48:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Ms. Mulhern.
10:46:57:12 Would you like to chime in on that same issue?
10:47:01:15 >>MICHELE OGILVIE: Michele Ogilvie, Planning Commission
10:47:04:01 staff.
10:47:04:13 Thank you for reminding me.
10:47:05:21 I've been away for so long.
10:47:07:21 One of the things that is displayed very carefully in
10:47:12:06 the urban form conversation is the character of
10:47:16:00 neighborhood.
10:47:16:12 And there's a primer that we've added in the third
10:47:19:24 draft that speaks to patterns, building massing,
10:47:24:21 landscaping, color, materials, so that there's a lot
10:47:28:27 more in this comprehensive plan draft that's coming to
10:47:31:13 you that does give you the criteria that you need to
10:47:35:27 really assess the comprehensive -- the request that's
10:47:39:15 coming before you.
10:47:40:12 We've also added a lot of conversation about the
10:47:44:21 heritage and the historic significance and character so
10:47:48:15 that it gives you a complete view of a request.
10:47:52:21 As you know today in the comprehensive plan, there are
10:47:55:22 very, very general policies, and most of the time, it's
10:47:59:07 written so that the zoning code is the one that picks
10:48:03:21 up that burden and we're left with just a density

10:48:08:25 conversation.
10:48:09:06 Also, just to complete this thought, the plan
10:48:14:01 categories are being rewritten to add form
10:48:21:01 characteristics so that there are -- and really, I'm
10:48:24:12 very excited about that opportunity to bring that to
10:48:27:22 you.
10:48:28:21 We speak to how the neighborhood evolves by time, so
10:48:35:01 that there are characteristics of contemporary
10:48:39:25 neighborhoods such as New Tampa and then traditional
10:48:43:00 urban neighborhoods such as Seminole Heights and those
10:48:45:13 of that aged period.
10:48:46:27 And then we speak to things like how tall they should
10:48:51:24 be, and their vertical integration with neighborhoods,
10:48:55:00 how they should look from the street, and so you're
10:48:59:24 going to get a much more complete comprehensive plan.
10:49:03:12 And I think it is timely.
10:49:04:27 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10:49:08:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You want another question?
10:49:09:28 Ms. Mulhern.
10:49:14:21 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Linda, for bringing that up.
10:49:20:06 I just want to point out some things to all of us, from
10:49:23:13 all the pictures you showed us, there were no models in
10:49:27:03 there that weren't either mid-rise or single-family
10:49:31:13 homes.
10:49:31:24 I didn't see any pictures of Channelside, and when you

10:49:36:22 talk about people coming to you with plans and then
10:49:41:27 sending them back and forth, well, they are lucky you
10:49:45:21 do that because even the ones they end up with that
10:49:48:19 this Council approves because the zoning and the land
10:49:55:10 use map allows it are sitting there empty.
10:49:58:19 So I feel like -- I mean, part of the -- my concern
10:50:04:21 about this plan and what we're doing is that it's
10:50:07:24 based -- when it got started, of course, you're
10:50:10:19 planners and you have to start from, you know, ahead of
10:50:16:10 time.
10:50:16:25 But what we're looking at now are the projections of
10:50:19:24 population growth.
10:50:22:01 They are wrong.
10:50:22:21 The idea that we were going to have all this density in
10:50:27:21 the urban core, wrong.
10:50:29:09 All these things that we look at.
10:50:31:21 And then when we look at other cities where their
10:50:34:09 neighborhoods are working, they are not this lopsided
10:50:39:21 mixed use conglomerations.
10:50:42:21 They are neighborhoods that are distinct.
10:50:44:21 And what worries me is this idea of all this mixed use.
10:50:48:25 If it's on a currently commercial corridor, you have to
10:50:53:19 really think about whether you really want to add --
10:50:58:00 anyone really wants to live above -- I mean, like,
10:51:00:19 Britton Plaza, no one wants to live above Stein Mart,

10:51:04:12 and it just doesn't seem to me really reality based.
10:51:10:06 And I'm starting to worry about the idea of this
10:51:13:00 form-based code, because I'm attending the Seminole
10:51:15:24 Heights planning meetings, and people are sitting down
10:51:19:18 with a map as if they have a blank slate in Seminole
10:51:28:22 Heights, and saying, oh, Central Avenue, let's turn
10:51:30:06 this into office residential.
10:51:32:09 It's like this beautiful block of historic homes and
10:51:37:16 the neighborhood is ready to change the zoning.
10:51:40:06 I just -- I feel like we have to be really careful
10:51:45:16 about changing the map.
10:51:47:18 And although your policies in the comprehensive plan
10:51:53:01 are there, when Tony comes here and says it's
10:51:56:00 consistent, that's enough for a majority on this
10:52:00:06 Council to say they can pass it.
10:52:01:24 Just changing the wording in the comprehensive plan is
10:52:04:15 not going to do it.
10:52:06:21 Everything that comes to us with your recommendation
10:52:13:09 normally gets passed.
10:52:14:27 You have to keep that in mind for us, because when we
10:52:17:12 talk about getting the tools, really that the zoning
10:52:22:01 and the land use categories are tools, unless, you
10:52:28:10 know, you're going to start coming to us and saying
10:52:32:00 this is not consistent.
10:52:33:21 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Well, we are trying to give

10:52:35:07 ourselves better tools also.
10:52:36:07 We have the same tools you have.
10:52:38:15 >>MARY MULHERN: When Linda asked that question, I was
10:52:41:27 disappointed in what you said.
10:52:44:09 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I'm sorry.
10:52:44:21 What was the exact question?
10:52:46:16 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, she said about how everything,
10:52:50:12 Tony thinks -- has to tell us it's consistent.
10:52:56:25 It's not about Tony.
10:52:57:25 It's about the comprehensive plan.
10:52:59:00 And to just say that, oh, well, there's language in
10:53:01:28 there, we're not sitting here with this book.
10:53:04:09 We're sitting here with --
10:53:06:12 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: We were talking about the existing
10:53:07:22 plan.
10:53:08:10 We were talking about the existing plan, not the
10:53:10:21 proposed plan.
10:53:11:16 We don't have a lot of language that does the kind of
10:53:13:24 things you want in the existing plan.
10:53:16:03 We can't pretend it exists if it doesn't.
10:53:19:01 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, but my concern is, it sounds like
10:53:21:25 the way that you're going with the land use category is
10:53:26:27 going to be encouraging the things that we don't
10:53:31:00 necessarily want.
10:53:32:06 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Well, it depends where.

10:53:33:09 It's not a blanket statement.
10:53:36:12 We're encouraging single-family neighborhoods to put
10:53:38:28 stronger language in to keep them that way.
10:53:40:21 There are certainly areas like Hillsborough Avenue,
10:53:42:22 with all due respect, I'm sorry, needs to be
10:53:45:06 redeveloped.
10:53:45:25 It's not an attractive street.
10:53:47:10 It's not utilized to its best use by any means to
10:53:51:10 promote transit.
10:53:52:15 I want to say something, the thing you have to remember
10:53:54:10 about long-range planning, we cannot whimsically change
10:53:58:00 because right now we're in a downcycle.
10:54:00:18 Five years from now -- you know, we were growing twice
10:54:03:09 as fast as what we said two years ago.
10:54:05:28 I remember Jim Hosler, Commissioner Scott, you may
10:54:10:22 remember him, he said don't worry about it, it will
10:54:12:27 correct itself.
10:54:13:15 I said, oh, we'll get all out of whack.
10:54:15:28 Guess what, it's doing exactly what he said.
10:54:19:07 I've seen three of these since I've been here in 1970
10:54:23:00 where we have two years of slow growth and somehow it
10:54:25:03 comes back.
10:54:25:22 Unless something really strange happens, the
10:54:27:28 demographics, not only of this community, of this
10:54:30:15 entire country support the kind of things that we're

10:54:32:25 talking about.
10:54:33:15 I was just talking to a young man yesterday who is 25
10:54:36:22 years old, and I asked him, I said what kind of things
10:54:40:12 do your friends want and all that?
10:54:42:22 He said they are either moving to other cities that are
10:54:44:21 more urban, none of them want a single-family house on
10:54:47:21 an acre lot somewhere, at least his friends didn't.
10:54:51:10 So there is going to be a shift.
10:54:53:09 You're going from 50% families with children to 25% of
10:54:56:07 the population being families with children.
10:54:58:24 The aging baby boomers, all kinds of forces.
10:55:02:15 I would highly recommend, there's a gentleman that gave
10:55:05:12 a presentation at the "One Bay" ULI conference that was
10:55:07:27 here, John FRICKENESE, who gives a really good
10:55:15:15 presentation on these changes that are occurring all
10:55:15:15 over the country.
10:55:15:22 And I will tell you in these other cities, these
10:55:17:10 mixed-use developments are doing very well.
10:55:19:24 I don't know if you've been to Chicago lately.
10:55:21:12 I know you did live there at one time.
10:55:22:07 It's unbelievable what's going on along streets like
10:55:27:18 Irving Park Road and all that where you see all this
10:55:29:16 new mixed-use development along these corridors.
10:55:31:22 Irving Park, when I lived there in the '70s was not
10:55:35:06 an attractive street, and now it's very nice place to

10:55:38:03 live for miles.
10:55:39:06 On the north side.
10:55:44:12 >>MARY MULHERN: I don't think the kind of -- it was
10:55:46:21 apartment buildings, right?
10:55:47:24 What was it?
10:55:49:27 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: It was more commercial, but what's
10:55:51:15 coming in now, you're having a higher density mixed use
10:55:54:06 closer to the pedestrian oriented development taking
10:55:56:15 place.
10:55:56:25 And it's happening all over.
10:55:59:04 I mean, Chicago is a great example of redevelopment.
10:56:01:21 Their downtown, I mean, the number of condominiums
10:56:04:07 still being built and occupied is tremendous.
10:56:08:18 I mean -- the other thing is, I think we have to be
10:56:11:18 careful of doing planning by articles in the newspaper.
10:56:14:21 I mean, I know it's bad to file chapter 11 and all
10:56:18:21 these things, but that doesn't mean people will never
10:56:20:27 live in the project.
10:56:21:24 When they built the project up here years ago, The
10:56:24:28 Embarcadero, it was the first downtown housing along
10:56:28:21 the interstate, people lived there for years.
10:56:31:06 And probably three years of horrible articles of how
10:56:34:00 nobody will live there.
10:56:35:06 It will just take time.
10:56:36:28 >>MARY MULHERN: Those are cities -- I don't think that

10:56:40:24 people are living there because of the buildings that
10:56:42:18 are getting built.
10:56:44:03 They are living there because of the quality of life
10:56:48:12 which has to do with parks and greenspace and museums,
10:56:56:24 right.
10:56:57:06 So I just -- and I'm not -- it's not because I'm
10:57:01:06 reading articles in the paper, it's because I haven't
10:57:06:00 lived here all my life.
10:57:07:10 I've traveled a lot, and I've looked at the kinds of
10:57:10:06 neighborhoods where people want to live.
10:57:12:06 I mean, if you look at Chicago, I don't know, I mean,
10:57:17:19 urban park -- I'll have to go up there --
10:57:21:09 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: There's a bunch.
10:57:22:09 It's not only urban park, tons of streets in the city
10:57:25:04 of Chicago are being redeveloped.
10:57:27:15 >>MARY MULHERN: I don't know.
10:57:28:04 This is just -- this is probably a debate that could go
10:57:32:04 on and on.
10:57:33:01 I just want you to be careful about protecting what we
10:57:39:04 have because it's, you know --
10:57:46:18 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: That is an important part.
10:57:47:13 The whole idea, we want to protect the assets.
10:57:51:06 >>MARY MULHERN: Yeah, our assets are important.
10:57:53:28 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: That's a totally important thing
10:57:55:15 this plan is based on is protecting those assets.

10:57:57:24 You are absolutely right.
10:57:58:19 You want to protect the things that make Tampa unique.
10:58:01:15 >>MARY MULHERN: Right, but I don't feel -- you know, my
10:58:03:18 experience has been that that is never the direction
10:58:06:00 I'm given.
10:58:06:27 We have to sit up here and say -- and it's usually a
10:58:14:04 minority, because people don't feel like there's the
10:58:22:00 tools, the support, the backup, the planning that's
10:58:26:07 encouraging -- I mean, I know you know that --
10:58:30:01 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: That's what we're trying to fix.
10:58:32:04 >>MARY MULHERN: I know you know this.
10:58:33:07 I'm just saying, keep in mind what happens when what
10:58:35:15 you think is fixing it gets here and nothing is --
10:58:41:15 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Again, this is a much more
10:58:43:21 fine-grain plan.
10:58:44:15 It needs to be in the right place.
10:58:44:15 The places you want growth, you need to do stuff to
10:58:44:15 encourage it.
10:58:45:06 Where you don't want it, you need to discourage the
10:58:50:06 change.
10:58:50:07 Right now the plan just treats everything the same.
10:58:51:24 >>MARY MULHERN: When you're talking about the
10:58:52:28 corridors, I think this is all Linda brought this up
10:58:56:03 about transit oriented design, when you're talking
10:58:59:06 about these corridors that you want to change from

10:59:01:27 mixed use, I think they have to be -- they have to be
10:59:05:07 starting as something that is in bad shape before you
10:59:10:01 change it.
10:59:10:27 If you've got a corridor that's, for instance, we're
10:59:14:06 always talking about, what is it?
10:59:18:18 North Boulevard --
10:59:21:19 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: That wouldn't be one of the
10:59:21:19 corridors.
10:59:21:19 >>MARY MULHERN: Nice little houses.
10:59:22:27 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Yeah, that isn't one of the
10:59:22:27 corridors.
10:59:26:15 >>MARY MULHERN: Everybody wants it to turn into
10:59:26:15 offices.
10:59:27:00 There you have -- here's more options for mixed use
10:59:29:28 living, why would you do that to a little --
10:59:33:15 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: And we, I believe, recommended
10:59:34:18 against that.
10:59:35:03 I believe that it held and was followed through upon.
10:59:37:00 That isn't one of the corridors.
10:59:38:18 >>MARY MULHERN: Oh, okay, in the new plan.
10:59:40:19 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: No.
10:59:41:00 The corridors are really your big four- to six-lane
10:59:46:15 highways in most cases.
10:59:47:18 I can't really think of any that would be like north
10:59:50:09 boulevard.

10:59:51:12 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
10:59:51:19 Well, it's interesting when you talk about Hillsborough
10:59:54:03 because, I mean --
10:59:56:00 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Hillsborough to me is the best
10:59:57:06 example.
10:59:57:28 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
10:59:58:09 But how do you -- what are you doing with Hillsborough?
11:00:01:00 How can that --
11:00:03:27 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: We're trying to encourage more of a
11:00:05:18 mixed use development pattern, where the building sits
11:00:07:21 on the site.
11:00:09:00 We need to not build a shopping center where a
11:00:11:21 pedestrian would have to walk 200 feet from the
11:00:13:24 sidewalk to get in the front door of the shopping
11:00:16:03 center.
11:00:16:18 I mean, you're seeing more of that development in south
11:00:19:12 Tampa.
11:00:20:10 There's a particular building on Dale Mabry that I
11:00:22:06 think represents -- I think it's around Watrous or
11:00:26:01 something, a new building that has a different
11:00:28:18 character, much closer to the street, more of an urban
11:00:31:18 character.
11:00:31:28 That type of site design issues and things like that
11:00:34:06 are what is important.
11:00:36:01 >>MARY MULHERN: Can -- can -- this is a small thing,

11:00:38:12 but this is something that I've noticed with our new
11:00:42:15 urban development, like especially in Channelside.
11:00:45:00 This idea of being on the street, that's not -- Chicago
11:00:53:25 and New York, those sidewalks are big or Fran -- except
11:00:58:03 San Francisco, I guess.
11:01:00:15 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I think one particular development
11:01:02:00 Channelside really missed the public space design of
11:01:06:15 the way the sidewalk is done.
11:01:08:00 I agree with you absolutely.
11:01:09:21 There's not enough room.
11:01:12:07 >>MARY MULHERN: I think all those buildings there are
11:01:13:22 like that.
11:01:14:21 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: The one along Kennedy, the
11:01:16:18 streetscape just is not that great.
11:01:18:13 If they really want to encourage pedestrian activity
11:01:20:25 and stores on the first floor the way the sidewalk was
11:01:23:24 designed and the landscaping and everything is not
11:01:26:25 really done very well.
11:01:28:09 We got to do it better.
11:01:31:15 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
11:01:32:03 Hopefully we can get away from that.
11:01:34:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Dingfelder.
11:01:35:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just a couple of comments and a
11:01:39:15 question or two.
11:01:40:18 We're talking about how we can help Tony Garcia.

11:01:45:24 I was thinking of a new charity "tools for Tony."
11:01:49:21 [ LAUGHTER ]
11:01:50:01 Ms. Saul-Sena mentioned dappled streets.
11:01:54:12 I don't know what a dappled street is.
11:01:56:04 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I think she was talking about the
11:01:57:00 shade coming through the trees.
11:01:59:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I thought it was a design that I
11:02:00:18 wasn't aware of.
11:02:01:21 I just wanted to respond, Ms. Mulhern, I think your
11:02:07:04 comments are correct, generally, but I wanted to
11:02:11:25 mention like Britton Plaza because I think that is a
11:02:14:16 classic example.
11:02:15:04 I went to Britton Plaza when I was a little boy.
11:02:17:19 It had the only theater close to us and I saw Mary
11:02:21:01 Poppins, so it sticks in my mind.
11:02:23:27 If you think about Britton Plaza, it hasn't changed
11:02:26:07 since I saw Mary Poppins in the '60s.
11:02:29:24 >> Because it's successful.
11:02:30:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, it's gone up and town in terms
11:02:33:00 of success, but it's really underutilized.
11:02:36:10 It's probably, I don't know, 30, 40 acres.
11:02:38:24 It's tremendous.
11:02:39:24 There's a tremendous opportunity there.
11:02:41:12 And I'll respectfully disagree with you about what the
11:02:45:10 future of Britton Plaza could be.

11:02:47:06 Because if you think about the demographics of the area
11:02:51:12 surrounding it and where people need to go shopping if,
11:02:54:21 you know, if you want to do shopping, you go up to
11:02:58:03 Westshore plaza.
11:02:59:16 Now you go to International Mall or used to go to Tampa
11:03:02:07 Bay or what have you.
11:03:03:18 >> Not people who can't afford to go there.
11:03:05:21 I go to Stein Mart.
11:03:07:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I go to Stein Mart, too.
11:03:09:09 I'm saying -- anyway, there's a lot of -- you know what
11:03:12:12 I'm saying.
11:03:13:12 It's a reality.
11:03:14:07 So the point being is at some point, when Britton --
11:03:19:19 when the right planets align, Britton will change.
11:03:23:00 The way it will change is exactly the way they are
11:03:25:03 describing, because I've seen it in Orlando up on 1792,
11:03:29:03 there used to be the Winter Park mall.
11:03:31:13 They leveled the Winter Park mall in terms of the old
11:03:35:03 classic mall just like they leveled Tampa Bay mall, but
11:03:38:06 then they put in a mixed use project.
11:03:40:22 They have restaurants.
11:03:41:18 They have apartments.
11:03:42:15 They've got shops, they have all sorts of things.
11:03:45:21 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: They still have a grocery store and
11:03:47:12 things would you need on a daily basis for the

11:03:49:15 neighborhood.
11:03:50:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Exactly.
11:03:50:22 And I use Hyde Park village as an example.
11:03:53:09 You say nobody wants to live above Stein Mart.
11:03:55:24 Well, guess what.
11:03:57:01 The Mayor's mother lives right above Hyde Park village,
11:04:02:06 right in the middle of all those shops.
11:04:06:06 Mayor Greco used to live there.
11:04:08:04 People do live there.
11:04:09:18 They want to live there.
11:04:10:15 The same thing will happen in Britton.
11:04:12:15 Because the land is too valuable.
11:04:14:06 Eventually somebody will turn it into mixed use.
11:04:19:15 It will have the shops, have the shopping.
11:04:21:15 Hyde Park was very successful.
11:04:26:24 This Council approved an upswing in Hyde Park.
11:04:31:00 We will have residential, more residential in Hyde
11:04:32:21 Park.
11:04:33:06 That's just my editorializing.
11:04:34:28 The question I had, Ray, and it's a little bit
11:04:38:28 rhetorical, has to do, piggybacking off of Mary's
11:04:43:19 piggybacking off of what Mary said is I think we all
11:04:47:18 believe in corridor development.
11:04:49:06 We have to have better corridors, but at the same time,
11:04:53:15 as we look at these corridors, they do seem to expand

11:04:57:12 back a little bit into the adjacent neighborhoods -- if
11:05:03:03 you look at the swath on some of these maps.
11:05:06:27 In terms of the color coding.
11:05:11:15 I want you to assure us today and continue to assure us
11:05:15:19 that we will have policies that protect those adjacent
11:05:19:18 neighborhoods.
11:05:20:03 Those adjacent neighborhoods all know they live within
11:05:22:10 a half a block of Dale Mabry, half a block of
11:05:25:12 Hillsborough, half a block of MLK, what have you.
11:05:28:15 They also need to know that while they are living
11:05:30:28 there, they will continue to be protected from
11:05:33:01 encroachment by the commercial development that you
11:05:35:07 want to encourage.
11:05:37:03 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I'm thinking, since this has been a
11:05:40:01 big discussion, maybe at our next workshop, we really
11:05:42:12 get into the meat of the policies.
11:05:44:21 We should have the other draft done by then, and then
11:05:47:06 we can show you what the policies are, and you can tell
11:05:49:16 us, these are strong enough, not strong enough, we need
11:05:52:15 more, so we'll really focus on that issue of how these
11:05:55:18 corridors will relate to the neighborhoods.
11:05:59:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
11:06:00:01 And because I know you've heard that loud and clear now
11:06:02:16 from Council and from some of the neighborhoods and
11:06:04:15 that sort of thing.

11:06:05:22 The other question I have, and this might be more Julia
11:06:10:06 Cole from legal, is we've had discussions in the past
11:06:14:15 about trying to limit or preclude or otherwise restrain
11:06:21:22 spot planning, lot-by-lot plan amendments.
11:06:24:28 We don't see a lot of them, but when we see them, they
11:06:28:12 are kind of aggravating, and they are really contrary
11:06:33:00 to what I thought good, long-term comprehensive
11:06:35:13 planning was about.
11:06:36:16 I'll give you an example.
11:06:38:00 In Hyde Park, on the north edge of Hyde Park, there was
11:06:41:24 a very controversial comp plan amendment that came back
11:06:46:21 to us several times.
11:06:48:12 For one single lot.
11:06:50:09 And the neighborhood came out, and we've had
11:06:52:13 discussions, all sorts of discussions and this and
11:06:54:16 that.
11:06:54:28 And we've had a few of those in that type of area.
11:06:58:21 And I'm just wondering, are we doing anything to, like
11:07:01:16 I say, discourage or limit that type of spot planning
11:07:06:18 on a lot-by-lot basis.
11:07:08:06 >>JULIA COLE: Julia Cole, Legal Department.
11:07:09:01 As you know, we obviously can't stop people from coming
11:07:11:25 in and asking.
11:07:12:18 It's a question of making sure what you have in the
11:07:14:18 comprehensive plan is stronger as it relates to how you

11:07:17:06 are going to review comprehensive plan amendments.
11:07:24:12 In fact, have had conversations and they're probably
11:07:27:07 sick of me right now, but I've been showing up at a lot
11:07:29:10 of their stuff causing all kinds of trouble because in
11:07:31:15 my former life I was a land use litigator, so I tend to
11:07:34:06 kind of think of these things in a, oh, my gosh, how
11:07:37:24 will I defend this lawsuit kind of way.
11:07:39:27 So I encourage them to have a legal status of the plan,
11:07:42:12 which by having that better delineated of how these
11:07:46:18 policies work to discourage exactly what you're saying,
11:07:50:00 it gives a better framework for when you make those
11:07:53:09 kinds of decisions.
11:07:54:16 Comprehensive plan amendments are policy decisions.
11:07:59:03 They are fairly debatable.
11:08:00:16 When you make that decision, as long as you have some
11:08:03:06 information in the record to support that debate, you
11:08:06:09 will be successful in litigation.
11:08:08:04 It's really just a question of ensuring that you do
11:08:11:06 have better and more adequate tools in your
11:08:13:24 comprehensive plan, plus keeping within your
11:08:16:03 comprehensive plan something that really better
11:08:18:25 delineates the legal status.
11:08:20:28 It exists in law today, but it is better if you have it
11:08:23:12 within the comprehensive plan, and I think what is
11:08:26:00 clear in your conversations today, what's clear in your

11:08:28:21 conversations when I'm involved in your rezoning, and
11:08:31:15 now that I've gotten more involved in your
11:08:33:10 comprehensive plan amendments, we really have a
11:08:35:09 free-for-all because you just don't have your tools.
11:08:38:15 And these are your policy decisions.
11:08:40:07 You make them when you amend your comprehensive plan.
11:08:42:15 The biggest policy decision you're making is by
11:08:45:06 implementing a new comprehensive plan with these
11:08:48:03 greater tools.
11:08:48:21 So when you put it in there, you know what you're
11:08:50:27 trying to do.
11:08:51:22 That's the best way we can ensure that when we do make
11:08:54:21 a decision on a comprehensive plan amendment that does
11:08:57:28 seem to be spot planning or something else, that that
11:09:01:00 is a more defendable position.
11:09:03:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, let's get a little more
11:09:04:18 specific.
11:09:05:00 Within this book right here, January '08 version, and I
11:09:07:24 know there's a newer one coming out, are there specific
11:09:12:12 policies, new policies that specifically address, I'll
11:09:16:01 call them very small-scale plan amendments?
11:09:19:06 In other words, and if there aren't, I would say that
11:09:23:00 we need to have some policies in there that strongly
11:09:26:15 discourage, you know, that sort of thing, that where
11:09:29:09 you reach, you know, a threshold of a plan amendment,

11:09:34:07 that really can't preclude it by law, but we sure as
11:09:37:10 heck can put in policies that say that that's not the
11:09:40:06 direction.
11:09:40:16 We have now had this -- this is not a new plan.
11:09:43:15 How old is the plan?
11:09:44:27 -- '89.
11:09:48:00 So the plan has been in place.
11:09:49:24 The dust has settled, all right?
11:09:52:12 And I'm not -- I'm not saying we shouldn't have them at
11:09:55:18 all because that would be illegal.
11:09:56:25 I'm saying we should try and do everything we can to
11:09:59:03 put in language that would discourage them.
11:10:02:19 If we don't have that language, I think you all should
11:10:05:03 consider between now and may.
11:10:06:18 >>JULIA COLE: I think what I hear you saying is
11:10:07:25 actually putting in policies to talk about when you're
11:10:09:28 reviewing say a small-scale plan amendment of say less
11:10:12:21 than half an acre or something to that effect, that
11:10:16:00 better delineates that process.
11:10:18:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Exactly, because right now the only
11:10:20:01 difference I'm aware of --
11:10:21:27 >>JULIA COLE: Have to look at whether or not we can do
11:10:23:12 that --
11:10:24:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The only difference I'm aware of on
11:10:26:06 the small scale plan amendments is that you have to

11:10:28:03 have, what is it, five votes?
11:10:30:09 >> Supermajority.
11:10:31:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And there's a different policy to
11:10:33:18 Tallahassee or not Tallahassee.
11:10:35:00 Right, doesn't go to Tallahassee.
11:10:36:09 But other than that, all the other policies are same
11:10:40:15 for the small-scale plan amendment.
11:10:42:18 >>JULIA COLE: These are almost like micro small scale.
11:10:44:24 Because small scale plan amendment is under ten acres.
11:10:49:18 [talking over one another]
11:10:52:00 What I hear you talking about is more like really small
11:10:52:00 half an acre, lot or two.
11:10:59:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We've talked about that in the
11:10:59:10 context of a PD.
11:10:59:12 And we still haven't done anything.
11:10:59:12 >>JULIA COLE: Well ---
11:10:59:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I, mean, I'm not blaming you.
11:11:00:21 I don't know where that is.
11:11:03:09 But I think maybe it can go hand in hand with this.
11:11:06:01 It will create policies that say we don't want to do
11:11:09:00 this.
11:11:09:10 You could use those policies to jump into, we also
11:11:11:18 don't want to do very small scale PDs.
11:11:14:22 And discourage them.
11:11:15:25 Not preclude them, but discourage them.

11:11:19:15 >>JULIA COLE: Let me think about that and talk to the
11:11:22:03 Planning Commission folks about that.
11:11:23:18 I think I hear where you're going and I think it's
11:11:26:01 something appropriate to consider.
11:11:27:06 I think it will dovetail with some of the other
11:11:29:25 policies that I'm encouraging to put in the plan
11:11:31:25 talking about the legal status and better delineating.
11:11:34:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I told them the same thing.
11:11:36:00 Randy, I always want to give you your two minutes of
11:11:47:01 fame here.
11:11:47:09 You've been giving us comments as they -- as they go,
11:11:54:06 you've been responding, working with them, I'm sure,
11:11:56:25 daily, but how we are doing from the city staff
11:11:59:16 perspective?
11:12:00:16 >> Randy Goers, Community Planning Division.
11:12:02:22 The city staff is still reviewing the comp plan draft.
11:12:09:00 In many respects, the city staff is like you, they are
11:12:12:03 still -- and the public -- still getting the draft and
11:12:14:01 trying to understand what it means and reviewing the
11:12:15:28 changes.
11:12:16:09 So the city staff is now looking at it from the
11:12:20:13 standpoint of what does it mean to them in terms of
11:12:23:18 implementing the policies?
11:12:26:21 Does it change any procedures?
11:12:28:00 Does it look like it's going to change the need for

11:12:30:13 different studies, different operational approaches and
11:12:35:06 so forth?
11:12:35:24 We hope by the end of April, after the third draft is
11:12:40:12 done, come back and really say these are what we think
11:12:42:24 are the impacts to the city.
11:12:44:22 One thing to keep in mind is that the plan is going to
11:12:47:28 call for a lot of new things, some new studies, new
11:12:50:27 approaches, new ways of doing business.
11:12:54:16 And that's really what it should be.
11:12:56:00 Because what we've been hearing over the last few
11:12:58:07 years, if we continue to go in that same direction, it
11:13:00:22 wasn't the direction that the Council or our community
11:13:03:13 wanted.
11:13:03:28 As a comprehensive plan, as a 20-year plan, it's
11:13:08:21 supposed to be a long-term visionary plan to tell us
11:13:11:07 where we need to be in 20 years to accommodate the
11:13:13:15 growth.
11:13:13:27 It's really a work plan for 10 years or so to be able
11:13:17:09 to say here are all the things that if we have a plan
11:13:20:04 for the 92,000 people and 135,000 workers, here is what
11:13:23:22 we need to do to accommodate those.
11:13:25:18 So there will be a lot of things that -- a list of
11:13:29:01 things that we couldn't do all today.
11:13:31:07 The question will be, what are the most pressing needs?
11:13:35:00 Where can we put our resources and develop a

11:13:37:21 consistent, methodical, systematic plan over the next
11:13:40:21 five years to start making progress on those things.
11:13:43:12 I would like to just make a comment on the question
11:13:46:10 that just came up on the plan amendments and the small
11:13:49:09 scale and the map, one thing to keep in mind, our
11:13:52:28 future land use map is actually a map of, for the most
11:13:56:07 part, it's a map that's 20 years old.
11:13:58:15 The plan categories that have been on the map, there
11:14:00:12 have been a few changes in some of the plan updates
11:14:03:13 that we have had.
11:14:04:06 But for all intents and purposes, it really is the map
11:14:06:24 of 20 years ago.
11:14:08:00 And as you've seen, the marketplace has changed.
11:14:12:06 Demand for certain type of living environments,
11:14:14:09 commercial products that people want to go and develop
11:14:16:18 with change, I think in many respects, our plan map has
11:14:19:13 not kept up with those type of demand for living and
11:14:23:00 working environments.
11:14:23:24 So that's why you see the marketplace asking for a
11:14:26:15 particular type of use on one small parcel because the
11:14:29:18 plan categories of the plan map hasn't kept up with the
11:14:33:00 demand for growth in those areas.
11:14:34:25 That's very consistent with other cities that are about
11:14:37:22 our age in terms of the growth curves -- and what
11:14:42:24 they've had to do is make a choice of either going back

11:14:46:15 and look at the entire plan map and making a major
11:14:49:03 change to their map or to do it in pieces.
11:14:51:21 I think what we have looked at is through the
11:14:53:22 form-based code and community planning effort, to look
11:14:56:24 at areas on a smaller scale and then come back with
11:15:00:18 changes.
11:15:01:12 I think the recommendations that will come out of that
11:15:04:28 effort will be changes that go back to the plan map.
11:15:07:15 And these are categories that maybe are areas that
11:15:09:07 should change.
11:15:10:21 Some areas maybe just zoning changes, other areas may
11:15:13:15 be some specific project changes.
11:15:15:03 But the idea to look at things from a different scale
11:15:17:10 and to really try to bring the map in better sync with
11:15:23:00 where we think the market and where the community
11:15:25:13 interests are.
11:15:26:12 That's the part we have to balance, what the community
11:15:28:15 wants and what the market forces want.
11:15:30:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let's talk about scheduling real
11:15:32:21 quick, because I have a concern.
11:15:36:22 April, we have one more workshop in April before you go
11:15:39:24 to the Planning Commission in May?
11:15:43:27 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: The Planning Commission public
11:15:45:03 hearing is in May.
11:15:46:06 We have a workshop with the Planning Commission

11:15:48:00 April 14.
11:15:49:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You have a workshop with us April
11:15:51:06 something -- we told you to put this on our workshop
11:15:56:00 calendar for every month until we --
11:15:58:18 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I don't have the next workshop date
11:16:00:19 memorized.
11:16:06:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It concerns me a little bit that we
11:16:08:04 only have one more bite before it launches into the
11:16:10:18 Planning Commission process.
11:16:11:18 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Well, you have up until the
11:16:14:01 May 16th date, even though we have a workshop with
11:16:16:09 the Planning Commission.
11:16:17:04 See, you've already heard more than the Planning
11:16:19:00 Commission has heard.
11:16:20:00 They have not even been presented what I gave you last
11:16:22:18 time I was here.
11:16:23:28 So that's -- we're just catching them up to where you
11:16:27:09 are at the workshop.
11:16:30:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Council transmission as well.
11:16:32:21 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: June.
11:16:35:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So we have April and May prior to
11:16:37:19 that.
11:16:38:00 Because, obviously, with your third addition --
11:16:44:09 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: It's June 26th.
11:16:46:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: With your third -- so we might have

11:16:49:00 three meetings between now and then.
11:16:51:10 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: We're willing to meet anytime you
11:16:52:21 want.
11:16:58:03 >>MARY MULHERN: I know you're doing great work, and I
11:17:01:07 really appreciate it, and I know I kind of went off.
11:17:06:00 It's frustrating -- sounds like it's getting late in
11:17:10:09 this whole process, but when you say we looked at and
11:17:15:00 Randy -- I don't know if he's still here, we looked at
11:17:17:07 other communities, I think that and hopefully you did
11:17:21:24 this, but if you do identify, obviously, you showed us
11:17:25:01 some great pictures from other places that I'm not sure
11:17:29:15 where they were, but if we're really imitating what
11:17:33:03 they are doing, then we're going in the right
11:17:38:15 direction.
11:17:38:27 The other thing I wanted to ask is that when we talked
11:17:41:21 about my frustration about not -- and all of ours --
11:17:49:15 about not having the tools we need, maybe we could have
11:17:52:24 a little -- Tony could give us an example of a report
11:17:58:03 and how it would be different.
11:17:59:18 Like, take a report that you gave us, maybe something
11:18:02:16 that you weren't real comfortable with saying was
11:18:06:22 consistent and then use the new plan and show us how it
11:18:09:21 could be different.
11:18:11:06 Maybe that's -- it's my problem of not understanding
11:18:14:03 how it's going to translate into what my job is.

11:18:17:22 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: I think that's a good job.
11:18:19:15 >>MARY MULHERN: That would make me feel a whole lot
11:18:21:28 better.
11:18:22:21 The other thing, really my frustration, like this
11:18:24:16 Britton Plaza thing, if you take it as an example, no
11:18:27:25 one is ever going to walk to Britton Plaza unless
11:18:32:03 there's a train really close to there that's going to
11:18:35:10 drop them off or the people who are currently taking
11:18:37:16 the bus there, because that's where they can afford to
11:18:40:21 shop.
11:18:41:03 So this is a question of gentrification, and I don't
11:18:45:21 think Hyde Park is a good example, because we had
11:18:50:25 upscale shops and none of them could make it there.
11:18:53:24 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: You know what, there are better
11:18:55:12 examples for that.
11:18:56:27 >>MARY MULHERN: None of this idea is kind of a fantasy.
11:19:02:16 This is what we should have been telling bob Clifford,
11:19:06:01 not you.
11:19:06:21 Sorry, going off.
11:19:08:19 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Actually, there is proposed in the
11:19:09:24 MPO plan a line that uses that rail line that goes
11:19:12:18 through south Tampa by Britton Plaza.
11:19:15:06 >>MARY MULHERN: That diagonal one?
11:19:17:01 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Yes.
11:19:17:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Chiaramonte, you starred in a

11:19:22:10 really charming short video that describes form-based
11:19:26:01 development.
11:19:26:12 And I think that when you come to see us in April, you
11:19:29:06 should include that, because it's a really great
11:19:31:22 example.
11:19:32:10 I talked to Julia Cole about it, I said we're working
11:19:35:06 on form-based development, and this would be --
11:19:39:01 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Ten-minute thing.
11:19:40:24 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: If you could include that, that
11:19:42:09 would be good.
11:19:42:27 I think we're on the right track.
11:19:44:09 I think what you need to do is really meet individually
11:19:46:09 with Council members and I thought that Ms. Mulhern's
11:19:49:21 idea of taking a specific recommendation, translating
11:19:53:16 it and working through how this plan differs from our
11:19:57:12 existing one.
11:19:58:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:19:59:03 We appreciate it.
11:20:00:15 >>RAY CHIARAMONTE: Thank you very much.
11:20:00:18 >>> Can you buy that video that you are in at a local
11:20:00:18 store?
11:20:07:06 >> No, it's not for sale.
11:20:08:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We need to close the workshop.
11:20:10:18 [Motion Carried]
11:20:15:04 >> Move to receive and file all the papers.

11:20:17:15 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:20:19:06 All in favor of the motion, aye.
11:20:21:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Our state legislature is busy up in
11:20:24:06 Tallahassee, and some of the things that they are
11:20:26:06 proposing are not particularly great for the City of
11:20:29:16 Tampa, in my opinion.
11:20:31:03 So what I would like to do is have a staff report by
11:20:35:06 Debbie Stephenson, who I think is our liaison to
11:20:37:28 Tallahassee at our next Council meeting on which -- on
11:20:41:25 what the city is weighing in on in terms of state
11:20:44:16 legislation.
11:20:48:12 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion, aye.
11:20:50:01 Opposed, nay.
11:20:50:27 [Motion Carried]
11:20:51:16 >> You don't think that we would be alienating some of
11:20:51:16 the legislators up there by doing this?
11:20:57:27 They do what they want up in Tallahassee.
11:21:04:15 I read some of it today about Ronda Storms.
11:21:08:12 I didn't read the whole story, but I don't know what
11:21:12:00 she's chasing down, but she's on something.
11:21:21:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My idea is that by weighing in, we
11:21:23:18 would encourage them to do what would be helpful to the
11:21:26:01 City of Tampa.
11:21:27:19 >>JOSEPH CAETANO: Right. I understand.
11:21:28:19 >>GWEN MILLER: All right, anything else to come before

11:21:31:00 Council?
11:21:31:10 We stand adjourned until 6 p.m