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Tampa City Council
Thursday, June 5, 2008
9:00 a.m.

The following represents an unedited version of
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08:55:33 [Sounding gavel]
09:03:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Tampa City Council meeting will now
09:03:57 come to order.
09:03:58 We will stand for the invocation and the pledge, and
09:04:01 our invocation is being led by councilman Dingfelder's
09:04:06 aide Mr. Jim Reese this morning.
09:04:11 >>> JIM REESE: Good morning.
09:04:13 Before we begin today's meeting, let us take a moment
09:04:15 to thank God for all we have been given and for
09:04:18 bringing such a dedicated group of people to our
09:04:20 council meeting.
09:04:22 We ask for God's help to give our individual and

09:04:25 collective gifts to our community and to regularly
09:04:28 refurbish our intentions and to give of ourselves in
09:04:31 ways that make a difference.
09:04:33 To our families, to our city, to our nation, to a
09:04:37 world grown so small it can be explored with the click
09:04:42 of a mouse.
09:04:43 We ask the Lord's help in keeping our wits during the
09:04:46 time of distractions and economic uncertainty.
09:04:49 May we maintain our focus with determination and with
09:04:51 a sense of humor borne of the knowledge that we are
09:04:55 but mortal women and men.
09:04:58 Assist us to do our work with vigor, stamina and
09:05:03 hearty all the while giving us the spirit to plan and
09:05:06 the courage to act.
09:05:07 For all of this, and for a few doses of good luck in
09:05:12 gross, we give our thanks.
09:05:14 Amen.
09:05:17 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:05:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We will now have roll call.
09:05:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:05:38 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:05:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.

09:05:40 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:05:41 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
09:05:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:05:44 Thank you.
09:05:45 Thank you, Mr. Joe Reese who is the aide again to
09:05:50 councilman Dingfelder.
09:05:51 Thank you for the invocation this morning with us.
09:05:56 We don't have any ceremony activities.
09:06:00 We will move to the agenda.
09:06:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Good morning Mr. Chairman, members of
09:06:05 council.
09:06:05 Mr. Territo is here I believe on some matters that
09:06:08 didn't make it onto the addendum.
09:06:10 I would like him to address council if he may at this
09:06:13 time.
09:06:13 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
09:06:15 I have been asked to make a substitution for item
09:06:17 number 6 which is in budget resolution.
09:06:19 Apparently there was a typo in one of the account
09:06:21 numbers and they would like to make a substitution for
09:06:24 that.
09:06:24 Also when we get to it, item number 2 which is the

09:06:27 ordinance dealing with the Waterworks Park, we have
09:06:30 been requested to add a few more items to the parks --
09:06:34 not the other uses, and I have a list of those which
09:06:38 we will discuss when we get to that particular point.
09:06:40 And I have got them outlined in color so we can look
09:06:42 at those items if you are so disposed.
09:06:46 Those are the only two items I have at this particular
09:06:48 point.
09:06:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other changes be?
09:06:58 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Item 71, council earlier received a
09:07:02 substitution on a particular portion of the WMBE
09:07:05 ordinance and would like to be presented today for
09:07:08 second reading.
09:07:08 It's not a substantive change.
09:07:11 County go forward on second reading.
09:07:13 Item 87 is a public hearing on the Tampa Heights
09:07:18 riverfront.
09:07:19 There's a substitution of exhibit A on that.
09:07:23 With regard to item number 52, the memorandum from
09:07:28 Julia Cole is requesting a -- excuse me, Julia
09:07:38 Kabougeris.
09:07:40 Item number 96 is from Julia Cole for 2:00 suggesting

09:07:44 the issue of the technical standards manual for the
09:07:47 transportation department be continued to July
09:07:50 17th of 2008.
09:07:56 With regard to item 2, being presented for first
09:07:59 reading related to the Tampa Waterworks Park, that is
09:08:02 being suggested to be addressed, there is a PowerPoint
09:08:06 with it when the public hearing on item 87 is heard
09:08:09 which is presently scheduled for 10 a.m.
09:08:11 Item 40 is a resolution amending its interlocal
09:08:19 agreement and there was a note added to the final
09:08:22 agenda.
09:08:23 Council, you received a letter from Mr. Bentley.
09:08:25 And on item 44, excuse me, Mr. Bentley's was regarding
09:08:30 the appointment on item 60, will not be able to
09:08:34 appear.
09:08:35 Team number 44 with, that is passed under the consent
09:08:38 docket, Florida statutes does require the announcement
09:08:42 of the public reading be made, the public hearing, so
09:08:47 I will ask somebody to read that aloud.
09:08:52 With regard to items removed from the committee
09:08:54 reports, consent agenda for discussion on separate
09:08:57 vote, we had had a request from council member

09:09:00 Dingfelder to remove items 12, 13 and 14.
09:09:04 And I believe there is one more item with regard to
09:09:09 the staff reports for the budget advisory committee.
09:09:19 And there is a request, I believe, to have that
09:09:21 continued as well.
09:09:23 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to continue that to our
09:09:33 next council meeting for two weeks.
09:09:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That's number 68.
09:09:38 68, I'm sorry.
09:09:43 >>MARY MULHERN: We could continue for two weeks?
09:09:49 We have a meeting on June 19th.
09:09:56 >>THE CLERK: Regular meeting on that day.
09:09:57 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to move we continue top
09:10:00 that to June 19th.
09:10:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That can be done with the changes.
09:10:03 Is there anything else?
09:10:05 >> Let me go back on councilman Dingfelder, I have a
09:10:08 memo from him for item 12 and 14.
09:10:12 You are saying 12, 13 and 14?
09:10:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm referring to what the a deny dumb
09:10:20 reads.
09:10:21 I suspect it related to the budget amendment and the

09:10:24 two are related.
09:10:25 So both for discussion because they are related.
09:10:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:10:32 So can we just make one motion that we include all
09:10:34 those changes?
09:10:35 That's what I'd like to do.
09:10:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
09:10:39 All the changes suggested for the agenda.
09:10:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So the clerk understands?
09:10:45 We have a motion.
09:10:46 >>THE CLERK: Item number 60 you also have a letter
09:10:49 from Mr. Ward but he will not be able to be here for
09:10:52 the interview for the affordable housing.
09:10:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
09:10:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just a reminder to council and to the
09:10:58 public, that council will go into April closed session
09:11:01 at noon today relative to a matter involving
09:11:04 litigation.
09:11:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:11:06 That will be at noon.
09:11:07 And at that time we will read the notice of going into
09:11:12 closed session.

09:11:14 We have a motion and second.
09:11:15 >>MARY MULHERN: I just have one question on the
09:11:18 affordable housing commission.
09:11:19 We are getting presentations today but we are not
09:11:22 voting on those, are we?
09:11:27 We are voting on those?
09:11:28 >> Yes, yes, yes.
09:11:29 And Mrs. Miller will come when we get closer to that
09:11:34 and address council on that as well.
09:11:36 Okay.
09:11:36 All in favor of the motion let it be known by Aye.
09:11:39 Opposes?
09:11:39 So moved and ordered.
09:11:40 Okay.
09:11:43 We will now go into the public comment section.
09:11:47 Council has set aside 30 minutes for public comment.
09:11:51 As you come forth we will have three minutes.
09:11:55 State your name and address for the record clearly,
09:11:56 please.
09:11:57 State your name and address for the record.
09:12:02 When you hear the bell that means your time is up.
09:12:05 And I have learned that you are actually getting three

09:12:08 and a half minutes, not getting three but getting
09:12:11 three and a half minutes.
09:12:12 So be mindful of that.
09:12:14 Okay.
09:12:17 At this time, will you come forward, if you are going
09:12:20 to address council, please come forward.
09:12:26 >>> Susan Edwards, 10204 -- Tampa, Florida.
09:12:35 I came just to comment on the Babe Zaharias use of
09:12:42 pesticides.
09:12:44 I wanted it to be in the record.
09:12:47 One of the things I would like to recommend -- this is
09:12:49 a fortunate time that the story came up by Janet zinc,
09:12:54 that the Tampa Sports Authority look into becoming
09:12:56 certified by the Audubon cooperative sanctuary program
09:13:00 for golf courses.
09:13:02 This is a wonderful program, lots of Florida golf
09:13:04 courses are involved, lots of -- I think more than
09:13:09 2,000 golf course as round the country have been
09:13:11 certified.
09:13:12 And the idea is that to become certified you have to
09:13:17 go through a certification program which doesn't cost
09:13:20 very much money at all, and it improves environmental

09:13:24 performance, community relations, reduces liability
09:13:27 for all the people out there working on the golf
09:13:30 course with dangerous chemicals, and people living
09:13:32 around the golf course.
09:13:36 It contributes to the conservation of our environment.
09:13:39 So I would like to just ask that council request that
09:13:42 the Tampa Sports Authority look at this program, look
09:13:48 at becoming involved in the certification program.
09:13:51 As I said, I have already talked to them and they have
09:13:53 expressed interest in it so I would like for to you
09:13:55 ask them to do the same.
09:13:56 Thank you.
09:14:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
09:14:05 >>> My name is Gina Flynn Carmack, I reside at 3704
09:14:10 west San Raphael, Tampa, Florida 33629.
09:14:13 I'm here to address the sidewalk ordinance.
09:14:15 My husband and I tore our house down about a year ago.
09:14:19 We are getting ready to CO and we discovered that we
09:14:22 have to put in a sidewalk.
09:14:25 More than willing to do that.
09:14:26 Sidewalk is needed on my block where the kids walk to
09:14:29 school to plant every morning.

09:14:30 They are almost hit the road is so small.
09:14:33 Only to come about with, oh, can't put one in because
09:14:36 there's a tree there that belongs to the city, and
09:14:38 there's not enough footage from the tree for the
09:14:40 street.
09:14:41 So after I did some calling, I got permission to move
09:14:44 closer to the tree.
09:14:45 It's a Laurel, not a live, it's a Laurel, not a grand.
09:14:48 Willing to put another tree in.
09:14:49 I love trees.
09:14:54 It's about 40 years old.
09:14:56 A few arborists say how old it is.
09:14:59 So parks and rec thought it was wonderful, tell me, we
09:15:02 went out there, we'll allow you to put it a little bit
09:15:05 closer.
09:15:05 And Jan Washington says we'll allow it just for that
09:15:09 part, you can go four feet, five feet for the rest.
09:15:13 Only for the city to tell me construction services,
09:15:16 oh, no, can't do it because it's too close to the
09:15:18 street.
09:15:18 You go down Cleveland and you look at the residential
09:15:20 area, you have houses with a sidewalk, there is no

09:15:24 buffer between the street and the sidewalk.
09:15:26 The next step in the residential area is a sidewalk.
09:15:30 We are educators.
09:15:33 You all know it's ridiculous.
09:15:35 I want to say write was born and raised.
09:15:38 I tore my house down to live there.
09:15:40 I just need some help.
09:15:41 So I ask can we tear the tree down?
09:15:43 Oh, no, that's not an option, we don't do that.
09:15:46 I swore I wasn't going to be nasty with this but I
09:15:49 want to tell you Palma Ceia country club tore down all
09:15:52 those beautiful trees right in my neighborhood.
09:15:54 Live in golf view.
09:15:56 It was a tragedy what they did. And I don't see any
09:15:59 trees going up there. I have nothing against them.
09:16:01 I am going to replace it.
09:16:03 I need help.
09:16:03 That's what I need.
09:16:04 They won't let me talk to the mayor.
09:16:06 I put in three or four calls to her.
09:16:08 A woman in the office, she is trying to help,
09:16:11 Michelle, she's trying to help.

09:16:12 But I need assistance here.
09:16:14 I'm ready to CO.
09:16:15 My contractor is getting upset.
09:16:17 I want to put the sidewalk in.
09:16:19 I think it great.
09:16:20 I put in a request for a sidewalk saying that it was
09:16:22 dangerous for Jan Washington to say you need to get a
09:16:26 petition, I'm sending you the brochure.
09:16:28 I have the e-mails for all of this.
09:16:30 I'll be glad to share the e-mails with all of this of
09:16:34 what I have.
09:16:34 I'm willing to do it.
09:16:35 I know it's the law, I know it's the ordinance.
09:16:37 If I am going to have to pay $3500, let me put one in.
09:16:43 Just let me do it.
09:16:44 Somebody help me.
09:16:45 That's all I want is help.
09:16:46 Thank you.
09:16:49 Yes, sir, I called you.
09:16:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We get several of these calls and I
09:16:53 wasn't sure.
09:16:54 >>> I called you several times.

09:16:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Have you spoken to my office?
09:16:58 >>> Uh-huh.
09:16:58 They said you weren't in.
09:17:00 >> Well --
09:17:02 >>> No, I didn't mean that, you were, you had your
09:17:05 real job.
09:17:06 You know what I mean.
09:17:07 [ Laughter ]
09:17:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:17:12 >>> I understand.
09:17:17 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: What I was going to suggest was
09:17:20 that since you are in my district, I would be glad to
09:17:25 try to help.
09:17:26 We need to meet with transportation.
09:17:28 I don't know if you have met with them yet.
09:17:30 >>> Is that Jan Washington's office?
09:17:32 >> Well, she does sidewalks, okay?
09:17:34 But if they are saying you are too close to the read,
09:17:37 you need to coordinate between transportation -- we
09:17:44 are dealing with modifying the ordinance.
09:17:51 It might help with the C.O.
09:17:53 I'm step outside for a second and we'll talk and see

09:17:55 what other options we have.
09:17:56 >> Let me have something for my $3500.
09:18:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Excuse me.
09:18:01 Mr. Miranda.
09:18:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Our office has been in contact with
09:18:05 this young lady.
09:18:07 We are trying to get something done, but it's not the
09:18:09 people that work for the city, it's what they have to
09:18:12 read into and develop in their mind what the ordinance
09:18:15 says.
09:18:16 And the ordinance is very vague and it doesn't address
09:18:19 a lot of the issues like yours, it doesn't address a
09:18:22 lot of the issues like -- of course -- I am not
09:18:30 anti-sidewalk, let me say that.
09:18:32 But there's a human side to these stories that doesn't
09:18:37 effect us.
09:18:37 But if you don't build the sidewalk then you pay
09:18:39 double the fee or whatever it is due to other
09:18:42 construction costs somewhere else.
09:18:44 And I don't think that the recipient had done anything
09:18:48 to improve the city, but somebody who built a new
09:18:50 house or expanded the house by 50% doesn't get the

09:18:55 sidewalk and pays for somebody else's sidewalk.
09:18:59 Is that fair?
09:19:00 Well, it's been fair till now.
09:19:01 I don't know how far we are going to go.
09:19:03 I don't know if council is going to change the
09:19:05 ordinance to some degree.
09:19:06 I hope they do.
09:19:08 But that's to be determined.
09:19:09 I understand what you have.
09:19:11 I see the legal -- when the lawyer crosses their hand,
09:19:18 with a baseball bat to come in -- (laughter)
09:19:20 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
09:19:22 I think the legal department can work with the
09:19:24 transportation staff to review the ordinance and look
09:19:26 at some changes.
09:19:29 I am meeting with them coming up here in the next
09:19:31 couple of weeks.
09:19:32 I had actually started researching other jurisdictions
09:19:35 and other sidewalk ordinances and hope to come back to
09:19:37 you in maybe 60 days and bring back suggested language
09:19:40 changes.
09:19:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Just another 15 seconds,

09:19:44 Mr. Chairman.
09:19:44 Even if you can't build the sidewalk I don't like to
09:19:46 take somebody else's money for somebody else's
09:19:49 benefit.
09:19:49 But maybe we can change the ordinance even to the
09:19:51 extent where green is in, and you can put that money
09:19:55 for solar system, or something to help yourself and
09:19:58 help the environment at the same time.
09:19:59 And I am not specifically speaking about your case but
09:20:02 in broad form.
09:20:03 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
09:20:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
09:20:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would also like to get a report
09:20:09 back from Jan Washington in 90 days on the idea of
09:20:12 creating a complete sidewalk on San Rafael because it
09:20:15 is a major route to Plant High School, a narrow
09:20:21 street, dangerous, and we haven't revisited this in
09:20:23 ten years.
09:20:24 So move to get a report back from Jan Washington with
09:20:27 the possibility of creating a sidewalk along San
09:20:29 Rafael.
09:20:31 Is there a second?

09:20:33 >> What I would suggest is that we can have public
09:20:37 comment and then make a motion.
09:20:38 Thank you, ma'am.
09:20:41 Next speaker.
09:20:48 >>> Robert Lawson.
09:20:49 I live at 10240 Valley Drive in Tampa.
09:20:54 And the reason that I'm here, this is two years ago, I
09:20:58 and several of my neighbors were made to deal by the
09:21:01 application to the Babe Zaharias golf course.
09:21:06 Because of that experience, I looked into the product
09:21:10 somewhat, and it's a product that's brought to us from
09:21:12 the folks that brought us Agent Orange.
09:21:16 And the research that I've done, Curfew cannot be
09:21:22 applied safely to the bay.
09:21:23 From the label it says it has high acute toxicity and
09:21:30 carcinogenicity.
09:21:32 The label says do not breathe vapor, may be fatal if
09:21:36 inhaled, do not apply this product in a way that will
09:21:39 contact workers or other persons either directly or
09:21:41 through drift.
09:21:44 There's no way to control drift in this setting.
09:21:48 I watched two adolescent boys on their way to school

09:21:51 walk down the sidewalk through a cloud of this stuff
09:21:53 the other day.
09:21:58 There's virtually no effort to prevent people or
09:22:00 animals from entering the course during or after the
09:22:03 application.
09:22:04 And there are no oral warnings, in violation of
09:22:08 federal law, and there are nearly no written warnings.
09:22:13 Previous findings by the Department of Agriculture,
09:22:16 and a photo that I have, taken ten hours after the
09:22:23 application this year, speak to the competent of
09:22:28 applying this product.
09:22:38 This is a picture of a guy putting a sign up ten hours
09:22:43 after the application.
09:22:44 When I spoke with Mr. Saavedra and asked him
09:22:47 personally not to apply this dangerous chemical at the
09:22:50 bay, he replied that it's legal.
09:22:53 According to the label, if the application does not
09:22:56 control drift to people, then it is in violation of
09:23:00 federal law, and drift cannot be controlled when there
09:23:04 are people in every direction of the application.
09:23:08 So it appears that the application is dangerous
09:23:12 chemical is legal and that the application methods and

09:23:15 failure to notify are grossly irresponsible, and to
09:23:20 intentionally expose people to this is unconscionable.
09:23:26 Ladies and gentlemen of the commission, I ask you to
09:23:29 please make them stop poisoning my neighborhood.
09:23:33 Thank you.
09:23:49 >>> Good morning.
09:23:50 I have packets for each of the council members that I
09:23:51 would like them to --
09:23:55 Ma'am, ma'am.
09:23:57 Excuse me, ma'am.
09:23:58 You have to talk on the record to the mike, okay?
09:24:01 And then please give me your name and address.
09:24:03 >>> My name is Debra McCormack.
09:24:06 I live at 1506 south organize an circle in -- south
09:24:13 organ circle Tampa, Florida 33612, the second hole of
09:24:17 the Babe Zaharias golf course.
09:24:19 I am the vice-president of the Forest Hills
09:24:21 neighborhood association.
09:24:23 I am also the editor of a newsletter that reaches 1500
09:24:28 people and the coordinator of two web sites and I own
09:24:34 many more.
09:24:35 However today I am not here to represent the

09:24:37 neighborhood.
09:24:37 I believe that actually about 75% of our residents do
09:24:41 not know what's going on, and I would like you to have
09:24:45 the opportunity to correct it first, because I don't
09:24:49 think that City Council is aware of the situation
09:24:54 either.
09:24:55 Actually, I'm here today to represent two friends hop
09:25:00 died ugly, prolonged deaths from cancer in their early
09:25:06 fists.
09:25:07 I'm here to represent the elderly.
09:25:08 I'm here to represent every child who is in a cancer
09:25:12 ward in any hospital at this particular time.
09:25:17 On the day of the application of the toxic chemicals,
09:25:21 I stopped every person I could and told them to get
09:25:23 off the course and go indoors.
09:25:27 After I explained why, down to a person, they said the
09:25:32 city would not do this to us I believe that the
09:25:41 citizens would not knowingly harm citizens either but
09:25:45 it's a matter of knowing the situation.
09:25:47 I think you will do what's right for the people.
09:25:49 I have prepared additional information, which I just
09:25:53 gave to you and filed, and a photographic record for

09:25:57 you.
09:25:57 I believe that we must find a different solution.
09:26:06 I don't know if you would like to just go ahead and
09:26:08 keep them, because they are so numerous for me to go
09:26:11 over, but they show people on the golf course -- okay,
09:26:23 here is a nice gentleman sitting under a tree.
09:26:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Turn it.
09:26:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: This way?
09:26:30 Okay.
09:26:32 Here he is.
09:26:32 Do you see the signage?
09:26:36 There isn't any.
09:26:42 Here is about seven hours after him sitting under that
09:26:52 tree.
09:26:52 Here is a nice couple who walked across the course and
09:26:56 are standing in sprayed areas.
09:26:59 Here is a picture of the view from my home.
09:27:04 Again there's a gentleman fishing golf balls out of
09:27:10 the lake and heron to his left.
09:27:13 Here are some mallards sitting here along the water.
09:27:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:27:21 Thank you, ma'am.

09:27:22 >>> I would like to leave these photographs with you
09:27:24 so that you can read the information, and I have
09:27:26 documented at least 12 people walking across the
09:27:30 course.
09:27:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:27:31 Thank you very much.
09:27:35 Next speaker.
09:27:35 >>> Okay, thank you very much for your time.
09:28:06 >>> Noreen Follman, 10246 North Valley Drive. This is
09:28:12 on the Babe Zaharias golf course.
09:28:23 As you know, it was resprayed again a few weeks ago.
09:28:27 The first time that I knew about it was two years ago
09:28:30 when my son spent the entire day working on my
09:28:34 backyard.
09:28:38 He and four other people within a five-house range
09:28:43 subsequently became extremely ill, passing out,
09:28:48 nausea, and did not know that they had been exposed to
09:28:55 anything, did not know until later that the other
09:28:57 people had gotten sick on the same day, under the same
09:28:59 circumstances.
09:29:03 As several people have said, the course is used not
09:29:11 just by the golfers.

09:29:18 Not only do children play on it every single day but
09:29:24 others walk through it, as said, going to school.
09:29:30 It is used by the entire neighborhood, as open space.
09:29:35 And there are walkers there every single day.
09:29:40 The signs were almost imperceptible, and no
09:29:49 notification means no choice for being exposed.
09:29:52 We had no idea of what we were being exposed to.
09:29:56 Also, when we look at the official site of Dow
09:30:05 chemical on the Internet, it said that if you track it
09:30:10 in anyplace for 24 hours it is dangerous.
09:30:13 People are obviously tracking this into their homes.
09:30:20 And they walk there because they assume it is safe.
09:30:25 I personally have warned yard workers, mothers walking
09:30:31 with babies in strollers.
09:30:38 There are obviously safe things to apply and I would
09:30:41 like the first speaker to make a very clear
09:30:42 suggestion, it might be the solution to this.
09:30:45 But the solution clearly isn't to continue.
09:30:52 Thank you.
09:30:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Chairman, we all received, as
09:30:58 you know, last week, in response we have invited Mr.
09:31:04 Saavedra and the Sports Authority to join us.

09:31:06 I see him here in the audience, to join us and give us
09:31:11 I'm sure a brief report on this issue.
09:31:14 I don't know when that's come up in the agenda.
09:31:16 I think that perhaps it might be courteous to perhaps
09:31:22 move it up as early as possible in the agenda.
09:31:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, what I was going to do was take
09:31:27 a motion from Mrs. Saul-Sena to have it come up or
09:31:30 raise your questions on the agenda.
09:31:35 So if there is no other public comment, what I would
09:31:38 like to do now is allow Mrs. Saul-Sena to make a
09:31:41 motion.
09:31:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:31:44 My motion would be to get a report back from Jan
09:31:47 Washington in 90 days on the opportunity to create
09:31:49 sidewalks on San Rafael leading to Plant High School.
09:31:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
09:31:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Moved and seconded.
09:31:58 Moved by councilwoman Saul-Sena, seconded by
09:32:01 councilman Dingfelder.
09:32:03 So moved and ordered.
09:32:05 Councilman Dingfelder.
09:32:07 And then we will have Mr. Saavedra come forward.

09:32:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That was just my suggestion.
09:32:12 I will hold my comment until after I hear from Mr.
09:32:15 Saavedra.
09:32:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Saavedra from the Sports
09:32:20 Authority, Executive Director, please.
09:32:28 >>> Good morning.
09:32:31 My name is Henry Saavedra, Executive Director of the
09:32:33 Tampa Sports Authority, 4201 North Dale Mabry, Tampa,
09:32:36 Florida.
09:32:37 By way of background, the Sports Authority is a
09:32:39 governmental entity, also, an independent special
09:32:42 district created by the State of Florida back in 1965.
09:32:44 And we have been managing the city-owned golf courses
09:32:47 probably for over 30, 35 years.
09:32:51 As such, as a government agency, the public interest,
09:32:54 welfare and safety is very, very important to us.
09:32:57 And what I have done, I have asked Mr. Kennie Sims,
09:33:00 who is director of golf operations for all three of
09:33:02 our golf courses, to give a very brief, three minutes
09:33:05 or less presentation on why they are important to the
09:33:10 controls and what safety methods we use to make sure
09:33:12 that it's a safe product for them, the public.

09:33:15 We also have a number of Dow scientists here to answer
09:33:20 any questions but won't be giving a presentation, only
09:33:23 if you have questions to ask.
09:33:24 So with that, I would present Mr. Kennie Sims.
09:33:29 >>> Kennie Sims, director of golf operations for the
09:33:33 Tampa Sports Authority, 4201 North Dale Mabry highway.
09:33:39 I have a package to give out.
09:34:08 Since 1974 the Tampa Sports Authority has been
09:34:11 managing the city-owned golf courses and nematodes, a
09:34:20 parasite has been a problem for us since the very
09:34:22 beginning.
09:34:23 Since 2001, we had been using occur few for treat for
09:34:31 nematode.
09:34:36 We have done approximately three applications.
09:34:38 We have only received two written complaints from the
09:34:42 residents, and a third complainee came forward today.
09:34:51 Curfew, which is another name for it is 1-3-D, is the
09:34:55 chemical that is produced by Dow Agrosciences and is a
09:35:05 restricted use pesticide.
09:35:07 It is the most environmentally friendly product on the
09:35:09 market for nematode treatment.
09:35:16 Okay.

09:35:18 It is registered with the EPA and the Florida
09:35:23 Department of Agriculture as a safe soil fumigant.
09:35:37 Without using Curfew requires our facilities to have
09:35:39 to use 30 to 50% more water, and increasingly amount
09:35:44 more fertilizer, which in itself has an impact on the
09:35:46 environment.
09:35:49 Even with those additional needs the quality of our
09:35:55 surfaces is dramatically decreased.
09:35:59 Curfew is registered for commercial use on Florida
09:36:01 golf courses back in 2001 and that was based on the
09:36:04 EPA and the Florida regulatory reviews and
09:36:07 authorizations.
09:36:12 Exposure from registered users of 1b1 have been
09:36:16 extensively evaluated by EPA and these exposures have
09:36:19 been found to fall well within regulatory standards
09:36:23 established by those agencies.
09:36:29 Curfew is the commonly used product in the golf
09:36:31 industry.
09:36:33 Temple Terrace country club, Palma Ceia country club,
09:36:36 Buckhorn springs country club, golf courses that are
09:36:42 similar in design as Babe Zaharias and the fact that
09:36:46 they wind through residential neighborhoods.

09:36:48 Those facilities also use Curfew applications.
09:36:52 We treat approximately once a year.
09:36:55 Not every golf course treats every year due to
09:36:57 budgetary constraints.
09:37:00 We do not put down Curfew.
09:37:02 Curfew is put down by a trained applicator.
09:37:07 Those applicators are licensed and trained yearly on
09:37:12 the use and the application of Curfew.
09:37:14 We do not touch the substance at all.
09:37:20 How do we give information to the public?
09:37:23 In the past, what we have done is we have given
09:37:26 information to the Forest Hills neighborhood
09:37:29 association via e-mail.
09:37:34 Obviously that's not good enough.
09:37:35 We realize that.
09:37:37 We have decided that we will continue to do what we
09:37:41 have done in the past, which is to provide e-mail
09:37:45 notification, which is to try to get the information
09:37:49 put on their web site, continue as we have done in the
09:37:53 past to put signs around the perimeter of the golf
09:37:56 course, but we also found the most effective way, we
09:38:01 put out a mailout in the Forest Hills newsletter that

09:38:04 goes out by Mark Lee to alert our homeowners,
09:38:12 registered homeowners, that we will be treating the
09:38:15 golf course.
09:38:17 We realize that this year we did not do a good job in
09:38:21 that regard, and we will do better.
09:38:25 The reason why we want to do this is because we are
09:38:29 concerned about the neighbors of Forest Hills.
09:38:34 We are concerned about providing good service to our
09:38:38 customers, which we have been charged to do by the
09:38:40 city, and it is the right thing to do.
09:38:46 Curfew is a substance or a fumigant that is approved
09:38:52 by certain Audubon golf course facilities.
09:38:58 We will look into Susan's request and making sure our
09:39:04 three golf courses are certified and we will work in
09:39:06 that direction.
09:39:09 And I have with me today Mr. Ryan Mesner, so if you
09:39:13 have any technical questions he can take care of that.
09:39:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Dingfelder.
09:39:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
09:39:21 For one thing, when you say that you have received two
09:39:23 written complaints, I've seen more than a half dozen
09:39:29 e-mails with copies to your office.

09:39:32 So I don't know if you are not counting e-mails as
09:39:35 written complaints.
09:39:36 I think these days we have to.
09:39:37 >>> I have only received two complaints.
09:39:41 My office has only received two complaints.
09:39:43 Debra McCormack and Robert Larson, written
09:39:47 complaints.
09:39:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, there's more of them bouncing
09:39:51 around but it doesn't matter because I think they are
09:39:53 speaking on behalf of their entire neighborhood, and I
09:39:55 hope that -- it appears that perhaps in terms of doing
09:40:00 a better job of notification.
09:40:03 I mean, communication is half of what we all do in
09:40:06 government.
09:40:07 If we are not doing a good job communicating then we
09:40:10 are not doing a good job.
09:40:14 One of the things that we noticed when we were looking
09:40:18 at this product was that it's not -- it not approved
09:40:21 for use in Dade County.
09:40:25 Do you know why?
09:40:25 Or does your Dow specialist know why?
09:40:32 And I think they probably have a couple golf courses.

09:40:37 >> Ryan Messner, technical sales representative from
09:40:40 the Dow chemical company, I live here in Tampa, 7637
09:40:43 Brook Bend, 33605.
09:40:48 Your questions regard to Dade County, I provided you a
09:40:54 written comment from the Dow chemical company.
09:40:58 They have a higher water table in Dade County.
09:41:00 I do not represent Dade County or work on that coast.
09:41:06 But I can provide that information to council.
09:41:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
09:41:10 Thank you.
09:41:16 As I have read up on this over the last two weeks it
09:41:19 used to be there was a 100-foot limitation in spraying
09:41:21 this.
09:41:22 You couldn't get within 100 feet of a residential
09:41:25 home.
09:41:26 And it appears that Dow and the golf course
09:41:29 association went to the state Department of
09:41:31 Agriculture and reduced that limit by 70 feet down to
09:41:35 30 feet.
09:41:36 Which I think is a little bit disturbing.
09:41:41 Originally when the product comes out it's 100 feet
09:41:43 and now it's down to 30 feet in Florida.

09:41:45 I don't know that that reduction has been done
09:41:47 elsewhere in the south.
09:41:48 I don't think it has.
09:41:49 But tell me specifically how your applicator has
09:41:54 managed to ensure that this product is not sprayed
09:41:58 within 30 feet of those houses.
09:42:00 Because I know one person's house that's right on the
09:42:02 golf course, I'm sure you know them.
09:42:09 Their house is literally wrapped around by the golf
09:42:11 course.
09:42:12 And I didn't see where this thing was staked out and
09:42:15 keep those applicators within 30 feet of those homes.
09:42:19 >> First of all we don't do the entire golf course.
09:42:22 We only do fairways, slopes, T boxes and T boxes
09:42:29 themselves.
09:42:29 If there's an area where it questionably comes within
09:42:33 that buffer zone, the applicators have measuring
09:42:37 devices to make sure that they stay within that limit.
09:42:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
09:42:43 You are out there observing them and supervising them
09:42:45 when they do the spraying, you or your people?
09:42:48 >> They have the licensed applicators.

09:42:50 >> I know.
09:42:50 But you can't pass the buck that way.
09:42:52 So I would hope that's a no.
09:42:54 So I would hope next year that you and your people put
09:42:57 on the appropriate masks and be out there supervising
09:42:59 on behalf of these neighbors, because we can't just
09:43:03 cross our fingers and hope some commercial applicator
09:43:05 does the right thing.
09:43:06 So will you all do that?
09:43:10 >>> I understand.
09:43:13 >> The last thing has to do with notice.
09:43:17 The City of Tampa over the last five years under Mayor
09:43:20 Iorio has gotten very, very good go B noticing our
09:43:24 neighborhoods.
09:43:25 When we do a road project -- all of us I think
09:43:28 literally, you get flyers on the door, something Gulf
09:43:31 of Mexico on in your neighborhood.
09:43:32 They have a flyer.
09:43:33 Some city employees literally hangs a flyer on the
09:43:37 door to tell you what's going on, working on your
09:43:39 pipes, doing something in the road.
09:43:42 Okay.

09:43:43 I don't think mailing is good enough.
09:43:46 I think especially for the 100 house that is surround
09:43:49 your golf courses, I think you need to get out there
09:43:51 and walk those house it is week before you are going
09:43:53 to do this next year and hang a flyer on that door,
09:43:57 and with your number, and say if you have any
09:43:59 questions, please call us.
09:44:00 We have got to do a better job of communication.
09:44:03 The public health, as you know and I know, is
09:44:05 paramount to controlling nematodes.
09:44:11 >>> We agree.
09:44:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
09:44:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank John Dingfelder for
09:44:16 bringing this before council.
09:44:17 The Sports Authority is an autonomous authority but we
09:44:20 have our Chairman Scott serving on the Sports
09:44:24 Authority.
09:44:25 We know that you want to work in concert with the
09:44:27 community.
09:44:28 And I think the recognition of letting the neighbors
09:44:32 know is one thing but I also think you should explore
09:44:34 alternative forms of chemicals, because, frankly,

09:44:37 before Rachel Carson -- we sprayed DDT all over and
09:44:43 thought it was just fine.
09:44:45 I think our awareness about society about effects of
09:44:48 toxins in our environment is growing.
09:44:50 We need to be conscientious.
09:44:52 And I know the first speaker has the golf course wrap
09:44:56 around three sides of her property.
09:44:58 And I'm very concerned that with the VIPIR and drift
09:45:01 that it not impact the backyard garden, you know, the
09:45:06 fruits and vegetables that people have growing that
09:45:09 this vapor gets on, the birds, the animals.
09:45:13 It's a great concern.
09:45:14 It's in our city.
09:45:15 And we know that you will be conscientious.
09:45:18 I think it would be appropriate to get a report back
09:45:20 getting a good enough period of time in writing of
09:45:24 what -- of how you will address this in the future.
09:45:31 Explosion an alternative of chemicals, or no
09:45:36 chemicals.
09:45:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Caetano.
09:45:38 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Sir, we were shown a picture of a
09:45:41 man putting a sign up ten hours after the application.

09:45:44 I would like to make a suggestion that you put signs
09:45:48 up the day before around the neighborhood, around the
09:45:51 golf course, any house that's near there, that an
09:45:55 application is going to be applied, and put the date
09:45:58 on there.
09:46:01 And if it's a windy day, don't do it.
09:46:06 >>> The particular picture, we did the application in
09:46:09 the midday.
09:46:12 Ten hours would have put it at night.
09:46:15 So we do put signs around the perimeter of the golf
09:46:21 course anyway.
09:46:21 But we will continue to do that and do a better job of
09:46:24 that in the future.
09:46:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What I would suggest at this point,
09:46:29 what I would suggest -- let me ask a question.
09:46:31 Has EPC taken a look at this?
09:46:35 >>> We talked with EPC yesterday.
09:46:41 Barbara Casey, would you like to give an update on
09:46:45 that?
09:46:49 >>> Barbara Casey, 3801.5 West Empedrado, Tampa,
09:46:55 Florida.
09:47:00 We put a call in.

09:47:00 I spoke to Dr. Garrity yesterday and he sent me to the
09:47:04 toxicologist who was not in the office.
09:47:06 This morning I had an e-mail from her and we had a
09:47:08 couple of exchanges.
09:47:09 And she asked what we needed, and she told me that she
09:47:12 would get me further information.
09:47:14 So I'm guessing that when we come to the end of this
09:47:17 meeting that I will be back and have some information
09:47:20 and we'll certainly pass that along with the other
09:47:22 things that Mr. Simms has offered.
09:47:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Two things I request, one is that we
09:47:26 send a letter to Dr. Garrity of the EPC asking he take
09:47:30 a look at the chemical and report back to us on that.
09:47:33 Secondly, I request that we send this over to the
09:47:37 Sports Authority board.
09:47:38 Evidently they have not heard this, send this concern
09:47:41 over to them and give them an opportunity to address
09:47:43 the issue with Mr. Saavedra.
09:47:46 Could we get a motion on those two items?
09:47:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
09:47:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A friendly amendment?
09:47:51 Okay.

09:47:53 One thing, the only signage I have seen on the e-mails
09:47:55 I have received is this big.
09:47:59 But are there any signs that were posted bigger than
09:48:02 that?
09:48:03 >>> Yes, sir, they were.
09:48:04 But you have to remember that our golf course is
09:48:06 surrounded by homes.
09:48:07 It's open on the entire.
09:48:10 We put those everywhere along the sides.
09:48:13 And we also put larger signs where there were
09:48:16 entrances to the golf course.
09:48:18 >> Who how many big signs?
09:48:20 >>> Wherever there was an entrance to the golf course.
09:48:23 You know where you can get to the --
09:48:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think the problem is, and a
09:48:27 similar problem in Palma Ceia and some of the other
09:48:29 golf courses, is people don't use entrances when you
09:48:32 go out and stroll the golf course in the evening, you
09:48:35 know.
09:48:35 I'm sure you guys like people not to stroll your golf
09:48:39 course in the evening but people do.
09:48:41 It's open like that to a neighborhood.

09:48:43 Everybody comes in from every direction.
09:48:45 We know that.
09:48:46 That's just a fact of life.
09:48:47 We need to do better signs.
09:48:49 I support your motion, Mr. Chairman.
09:48:51 The only thing I would ask is either through the
09:48:54 Sports Authority board or through the staff, I would
09:49:00 ask, request, as your landlord, that we receive a plan
09:49:06 in terms of what the action plan is going to be next
09:49:08 year for the use of Curfew, okay? Specifically with
09:49:15 signage, notification, letters.
09:49:16 Whatever it is you are going to do, this council be
09:49:18 advised of it in advance so we can comment or whatever
09:49:20 we need to do.
09:49:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So the motion then would include, one,
09:49:24 that we send a letter over to EPC Dr. Garrity
09:49:27 suggesting they take a look at this chemical, and,
09:49:30 two, report back to us, too, that we send a letter
09:49:33 over to the board, the chairman of the board of the
09:49:36 Sports Authority requesting that the board take up the
09:49:39 issue and have a discussion.
09:49:41 And also a plan is sent back to this council relative

09:49:47 to the chemical.
09:49:50 That has been moved by councilwoman Saul-Sena,
09:49:53 seconded by councilman Dingfelder.
09:49:58 >>MARY MULHERN: I just noticed that Curfew became
09:50:03 approved or -- yeah, got approval to be used on golf
09:50:07 courses and sports fields in 2001 and this makes it
09:50:13 even more important that we go to our local EPC who is
09:50:20 more strain gentleman about environmental regulations
09:50:23 in the last eight years.
09:50:24 And I happen to know, related to the director for the
09:50:33 EPA before the Bush Administration.
09:50:35 He left when bush came in.
09:50:36 And I'm going to talk to him and get him in touch with
09:50:39 you, because this was not legal, and it has been
09:50:44 apparently since we have been using it.
09:50:46 But there certainly had to be other pesticides that
09:50:49 were approved before this came available for golf
09:50:52 courses.
09:50:53 So it's probably -- there's probably something that
09:50:56 you could go back to using.
09:50:58 I don't know.
09:50:58 Maybe we could find out what you were using before

09:51:01 that that probably would be less of a problem for
09:51:05 people.
09:51:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to amend my own motion
09:51:10 to include the request that the Sports Authority
09:51:17 consider a less toxic alternative.
09:51:24 Nothing personal to Dow.
09:51:25 But it's possible that there's something that would be
09:51:28 more environmentally friendly, specifically for the
09:51:34 Babe Zaharias golf course, because of the proximity of
09:51:39 the thousand residences to the course.
09:51:41 Some of the other golf courses that the city owns are
09:51:44 less proximate to homes.
09:51:48 We have so many of our residents who are by this
09:51:53 course.
09:51:54 It's particularly important that we explore less toxic
09:51:57 alternatives.
09:51:57 And I see people in the audience that belong to Palma
09:51:59 Ceia, and I would suggest that you all have these
09:52:02 conversations with Palma Ceia, too, because the City
09:52:04 of Tampa is blessed with the number of golf courses
09:52:06 that are next to homes, and we need to be careful, and
09:52:09 Tampa Palms is in that number.

09:52:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: There's a motion on the floor.
09:52:14 All in favor signify by Aye.
09:52:16 Opposes?
09:52:17 So moved.
09:52:17 Thank you, Mr. Simms, thank you, Mr. Saavedra for
09:52:20 being here today.
09:52:21 Thank you very much.
09:52:21 We need to move item 63, 64 and 65.
09:52:25 That is the interlocal agreement with the sheriff, the
09:52:29 police.
09:52:30 I understand the sheriff and the police chief are here
09:52:32 so we don't want to detain them any longer.
09:52:35 If we can move those items up and have them come at
09:52:37 this time.
09:52:41 Item 63, 64, and 65.
09:53:02 Who is going to be presenting?
09:53:05 Chief, are you presenting on those items?
09:53:10 63, 64 and 65.
09:53:26 >> I'll start off with Chief Castor to give you some
09:53:30 information.
09:53:30 And then I'll speak, or answer any questions that you
09:53:33 might have.

09:53:33 Okay?
09:53:34 >>> Good morning, council.
09:53:35 Jane castor, assistant chief of operations for the
09:53:37 Tampa Police Department.
09:53:39 And I also have the urban area security initiatives.
09:53:43 Way want to do is give you a very brief background on
09:53:46 how we arrived here today, for your benefit, and
09:53:49 obviously for the citizens of Tampa.
09:53:52 The urban area security initiative is a federal grant,
09:53:55 homeland security grant program.
09:53:57 City of Tampa received that designation in 03, we
09:54:02 started receiving funding in '04.
09:54:04 All of our funding from '07 on is going to be
09:54:06 dedicated to interoperability.
09:54:13 Hillsborough, Pinellas, cities of St. Petersburg,
09:54:16 Clearwater, Tampa.
09:54:17 Now as part of this program, Department of Homeland
09:54:19 Security has a requirement that we come up with an
09:54:25 interoperability plan, the public safety interoperable
09:54:33 communications.
09:54:33 We have developed a five year plan with the assistance
09:54:37 of several groups, but we have developed a five year

09:54:40 interoperability plan.
09:54:44 Phase one is going to bring out the City of Tampa's
09:54:46 radio system.
09:54:47 I think you are all aware our radio system is close to
09:54:50 40 years old, and it has certainly reached the end of
09:54:53 its lifetime.
09:54:54 So that is the number one phase.
09:54:58 We also have done some upgrades to Pinellas County
09:55:01 systems.
09:55:02 Pinellas County has Motorola over there.
09:55:04 We have done several million dollars worth of upgrades
09:55:06 to their system.
09:55:07 Phase two is to bring the Hillsborough County system
09:55:09 up to P-25 compliance.
09:55:12 We have received grant funding not only from you all
09:55:16 but other sources and we are looking at upgrading
09:55:21 there in two phases.
09:55:22 Hillsborough County has a system, it's a M/A-COM
09:55:25 system.
09:55:26 They have the west side and the east side.
09:55:29 If the City of Tampa goes onto the Hillsborough County
09:55:31 system we will be working off of their system.

09:55:35 And then phase three is to bridge Hillsborough County
09:55:38 and Pinellas County.
09:55:39 So all five of those jurisdictions are planned five
09:55:43 years or two years into it now, and five of those
09:55:47 jurisdictions will have interoperability, we will be
09:55:52 able to talk to each other on our hand held walk I
09:55:55 talkies and that is the long range plan.
09:55:58 Now some of these groups that have been involved in
09:55:59 the development of this contract include Department of
09:56:05 Homeland Security group, it's ICTAP, Interoperable
09:56:09 Communication Technical Assistance Program.
09:56:13 But what they do, they are communications experts.
09:56:16 They are housed or located in San Diego, the naval
09:56:22 warfare group, and they are the voice and data experts
09:56:25 nationwide.
09:56:27 We have contracted with them through DHS.
09:56:29 They came down several years ago and did a thorough
09:56:32 assessment of each of those five jurisdictions, data
09:56:35 and voice communications systems.
09:56:39 They also assisted us in the development of the RFP
09:56:42 for this contract.
09:56:44 They also assisted us in the review of that RFP and

09:56:47 made a presentation to the Executive Committee.
09:56:50 In the end, we are very grateful for their assistance.
09:56:56 Most local law enforcement make their own decisions on
09:56:59 radio systems, and we aren't radio experts so we will
09:57:03 allow the benefit of the expertise.
09:57:07 Obviously our goal here to get the best system for the
09:57:10 City of Tampa and obviously we believe that we have
09:57:12 done that.
09:57:13 To achieve interoperability with those five counties.
09:57:20 And then lastly to be good stewards of the grant
09:57:22 funding and our tax dollars.
09:57:24 The RFP development and publishing began in September
09:57:29 of '06.
09:57:31 The RFP was published in February of '07.
09:57:35 As I said, we had a committee that developed the RFP
09:57:39 and we also had a review by ICTAP. The two vendors
09:57:44 that responded were Motorola and M/A-COM.
09:57:44 They are seen as the best in the industry. Both of
09:57:48 those companies are outstanding corporations.
09:57:51 The technical review committee, we put together a
09:57:54 committee of ten members.
09:57:55 They were users, officers on the streets.

09:57:57 They were dispatchers.
09:57:59 They were radio people, people who had technical
09:58:03 expertise and a number of other individuals, some who
09:58:06 didn't have a great delve expertise but they were the
09:58:09 users and what they needed in the system. That
09:58:12 technical review, they were tasked with reviewing the
09:58:15 proposals from M/A-COM and Motorola.
09:58:19 Also we have ICTAP review.
09:58:23 They send out questions for the vendors to have
09:58:26 clarification on a number of issues.
09:58:28 Then we put together the executive advisory committee,
09:58:31 and it consisted of five of the top level staff
09:58:34 members from the City of Tampa, and they considered a
09:58:37 number of different issues.
09:58:38 They considered the technical committees review, they
09:58:41 also considered the ICTAP review that we received,
09:58:45 issues such as ease of implementation, the cost, not
09:58:48 only the initial cost of the system, but also the
09:58:51 ongoing yearly maintenance cost which we will not have
09:58:58 to pay in this particular instance.
09:59:00 And then we also allowed the vendors to give
09:59:03 presentations to the Executive Committee.

09:59:05 So it was a very well-rounded presentation,
09:59:07 consideration of both of those proposals.
09:59:10 And obviously in the end, the M/A-COM system was
09:59:14 chosen.
09:59:16 The cost for the system, the original proposal,
09:59:18 Motorola was 10,986,000.
09:59:23 M/A-COM original was 10,918,000.
09:59:29 We had asked them for a best and final because there
09:59:31 has been almost a year gap from the original proposal.
09:59:35 So we asked for a best and final from both of the
09:59:38 vendors.
09:59:39 They weren't allowed to put any future products into
09:59:42 that.
09:59:42 They couldn't say, well, we are developing this, and
09:59:45 we will throw that into the proposal.
09:59:47 They were only allowed to give a best and final based
09:59:49 on the original proposal.
09:59:51 But in final Motorola came up with 10,836,000, and
09:59:56 MACON was 9,482,000.
10:00:00 MACON was the vendor chosen and in coming to the
10:00:08 development of the final contract, we reduced that
10:00:12 price to 9,433,000.

10:00:16 So as I said before the continuing maintenance, I'm
10:00:19 not sure if you are aware, our county statewide
10:00:21 received a citation surcharge, and that is earmarked
10:00:25 directly for interoperability.
10:00:28 There are a lot of municipalities that have contested
10:00:31 that, the point of it is that they want
10:00:36 interoperability.
10:00:38 They want municipalities to go onto their county
10:00:41 system.
10:00:41 And that's the reason that money is earmarked for the
10:00:43 counties.
10:00:44 So that would save us, the City of Tampa, 250 to
10:00:47 $300,000 a year in maintenance with the M/A-COM system
10:00:52 that we to pay for a stand-alone system.
10:00:55 As I said before, the Hillsborough County is split
10:00:59 into the east side and the west side.
10:01:01 We will be on the west side.
10:01:03 Our street level undercover officers have been
10:01:07 carrying M/A-COM radios for over a year to test the
10:01:11 coverage.
10:01:12 We are all very happy with coverage of it.
10:01:15 We haven't come up with any problems at all with that

10:01:17 system.
10:01:17 If there were any type of an issue with the west side
10:01:21 system, then everything is switched over to the east
10:01:24 side and the City of Tampa would be able to operate
10:01:28 off of the east side system as well.
10:01:32 The grant funding can only be spent for a project 25
10:01:36 compliant, and project 25 compliance in essence says
10:01:39 that all radio systems in the future have to be
10:01:43 universally compatible.
10:01:44 That means M/A-COM can speak to Motorola.
10:01:47 The sheriff's office system currently is an analog
10:01:50 system.
10:01:51 It is being as I said in the second phase, we are
10:01:56 upgrading Hillsborough County system from analog to
10:01:58 digital.
10:01:59 Everything that we purchase will be digital capable.
10:02:03 It will be analog in the beginning and then be flashed
10:02:06 to digital as soon as the Hillsborough County system
10:02:08 goes to digital.
10:02:10 Same case for Hillsborough County.
10:02:12 Everything they buy, all of their equipment is digital
10:02:14 capable at this time.

10:02:15 So that is a requirement for the grant funding to make
10:02:19 sure that everyone goes to digital, P-25 compliance in
10:02:24 the future.
10:02:25 System with Hillsborough County, they have had it for
10:02:27 over 12 years.
10:02:28 They have never had any problems, any system failures
10:02:31 or anything else.
10:02:32 We do have an MOU on council agenda today that the
10:02:38 agreement between the sheriff and the city concerning
10:02:41 the radio system that obviously allows us a great deal
10:02:46 of control over our radio system, even though we are
10:02:49 merging with Hillsborough County.
10:02:51 And that is hopefully a very, very brief overview.
10:02:54 And now the chief wants to say a few words.
10:02:59 >>CHIEF HOGUE: Police chief, City of Tampa.
10:03:01 As you can tell from Chief Castor's presentation, this
10:03:04 has been a long process that we have spent a great
10:03:08 delve time and energy, vetting through both of these
10:03:11 vendors.
10:03:12 I would like to say that both of them have quality
10:03:16 systems, and the reason that we picked M/A-COM was
10:03:21 because we thought it would suit the Tampa Police

10:03:22 Department better and our needs.
10:03:25 As Jane said, there was a technical committee that
10:03:29 vetted through all of the year-long process and then
10:03:33 there was an Executive Committee that actually made
10:03:34 the decision on which system we would go to.
10:03:38 That Executive Committee was comprised of myself,
10:03:42 Darrell Smith, James Buckner, Lee Huffstutler and Jim
10:03:47 Stefan.
10:03:48 We listened to presentations from M/A-COM and
10:03:51 Motorola, and we asked questions, and decided, voted
10:03:56 and came up with M/A-COM as the best choice for the
10:04:01 Tampa Police Department.
10:04:02 One of the most important aspects for us, the police
10:04:07 department, is interoperability with the sheriff's
10:04:10 office.
10:04:11 And you can see there's a couple of sheriffs personnel
10:04:13 here today to represent the sheriff's office in case
10:04:16 there was any questions from them.
10:04:21 It is not a matter of a hurricane lo like a lot of
10:04:24 people think.
10:04:25 It's a matter of day to day operations.
10:04:29 You probably may remember maybe a year, year and a

10:04:32 half ago, the sheriff's office had a subject who had
10:04:37 taken hostages at a gun range up at Watters and Dale
10:04:41 Mabry, and it was a very large scene, and they had the
10:04:47 inner perimeter but they asked that our swat team
10:04:49 respond to be a backup or a relief for them, and we
10:04:55 couldn't even communicate on the same radiofrequency
10:04:58 with them.
10:04:59 Another incident occurred where the sheriff's office
10:05:01 had a hostage situation going on, and their swat team
10:05:06 was deployed to that.
10:05:07 And then another situation developed that required a
10:05:10 swat team.
10:05:11 And we had to send our swat team into the county to
10:05:14 assist them, and essentially what is occurring at that
10:05:18 time is our swat team is working underneath and in the
10:05:23 chain of command of the sheriff's office.
10:05:25 They are directing the operation, and our swat team is
10:05:30 actually doing the operational part at their
10:05:33 direction, once again we can't even with the people
10:05:37 who have to make those final decisions, because of the
10:05:41 interoperability issues.
10:05:43 Those are two very, very big examples that entail a

10:05:49 lot of officers safety, but with a system where you
10:05:53 can just easily communicate with the sheriff's office,
10:05:58 if you are working in one zone right next to the
10:06:01 county line, and you have a suspect and a description
10:06:05 and a vehicle under this M/A-COM system the officers
10:06:11 will switch right to their frequency, speak to all of
10:06:14 them, and tell them that the suspect has fled the
10:06:18 scene heading towards the county, and it's just
10:06:21 realtime kind of operation.
10:06:23 And that's what real interoperability is about.
10:06:27 And that's what this M/A-COM system we felt does
10:06:32 better than any other system that when saw.
10:06:34 And that is our highest priority.
10:06:38 The other aspect of course is money.
10:06:41 Let's not kid ourselves.
10:06:43 That's an important thing.
10:06:45 And M/A-COM came in about $1.4 million cheaper overall
10:06:51 price, and there's the maintenance, the ongoing
10:06:55 maintenance fee, the interlocal agreement clearly
10:06:58 points out that the sheriff's office will pay out of
10:07:00 those traffic citation moneys, or what other funding
10:07:06 the sheriffs has, that the city won't have to pay, and

10:07:09 if we had our own stand alone system of course we
10:07:12 would have to pay maintenance estimated between 200
10:07:14 and $300,000 that you have already heard Chief Castor
10:07:18 talk about.
10:07:19 Once again, I would like to say that Motorola makes a
10:07:23 quality product.
10:07:25 But for the Tampa Police Department, and for our
10:07:28 needs, it's better for our organization and law
10:07:33 enforcement that we be on the sheriff's office system.
10:07:36 And that's why we chose them.
10:07:37 And we would ask that you approve that purchase.
10:07:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Questions by council?
10:07:47 Councilman Dingfelder.
10:07:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, chiefs.
10:07:51 Two questions I have had, and I know you had
10:07:55 discussions with all council on this.
10:08:03 One concern and one question.
10:08:06 We all know the flukiness of federal funding.
10:08:13 You guys experience it annually.
10:08:15 And I know that counting on the future, funding to be
10:08:23 able to upgrade the county system, especially
10:08:26 obviously starting with the west side of their trunk

10:08:31 system to make it P-25 compliant and to go digital,
10:08:39 and the concern I have is worst case scenario is what
10:08:45 if that funding just dried up?
10:08:46 We have got a lot of changes coming in Washington, no
10:08:50 matter what happens next year, later this year, and
10:08:54 what if it all just dried up in regard to that type of
10:08:58 funding?
10:09:00 And maybe the sheriff's office folks could respond to
10:09:03 this as well from their perspective.
10:09:06 But what are their budgetary plans?
10:09:08 Is there a contingency plan to address that?
10:09:11 Because otherwise one of the big benefits that you are
10:09:14 looking for wouldn't happen.
10:09:17 If that county system didn't get upgraded.
10:09:20 >>> I'll have Chief Castor tell but some backup
10:09:23 funding that we anticipate being out there and some
10:09:27 form of other grants.
10:09:28 And you are absolutely right, until you have it in
10:09:30 your hand, you can't guarantee that you are going to
10:09:32 get them.
10:09:33 But it has been very historical that they are funding
10:09:37 homeland security and interoperability in particular

10:09:41 so we do anticipate that funding will come forward,
10:09:44 and then of course let the sheriff's office speak to
10:09:46 what backup plan they have.
10:09:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And then I have one other question.
10:09:52 >>> Castor: In law enforcement we always have plan A
10:09:56 and plan B and ready for what happens.
10:09:58 We are very, very close to having all of the funding
10:10:01 already in place for the upgrade of the west side
10:10:04 system which is a little bit over $4 million.
10:10:07 We have $1.3 million already earmarked from our '07
10:10:11 funding.
10:10:13 There's a piece of grant which I told you about
10:10:15 before, and we have almost a million dollars, 20%
10:10:19 match that the sheriff's office agreed to match on
10:10:23 that.
10:10:23 And we also, with the savings in our contract with
10:10:28 M/A-COM, we have also given 300,000 towards that west
10:10:32 side upgrade as well.
10:10:33 Now, you are correct, and we are very cognizant of the
10:10:37 fact that funding can stop at any time.
10:10:39 We have already put in what are called investment
10:10:42 justifications, our projects have been submitted to

10:10:45 DHS for 2008.
10:10:49 We are a little behind but we put those in.
10:10:51 As I said before, all of our funding is going towards
10:10:54 interoperability until we realize our five year goal,
10:10:59 and all we need, I believe, just a little over 1.4,
10:11:03 1.5 million, to complete the Hillsborough County west
10:11:07 side system, and that will be the very first project
10:11:10 that comes out of the '08 URB funding.
10:11:15 Statewide we have urban areas in Jacksonville,
10:11:18 Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami and Tampa.
10:11:20 Tampa was the only one that basically stayed
10:11:23 consistent last year with our funding.
10:11:25 We got in the area of $8 million and we have every
10:11:28 reason to believe that we will stay the same.
10:11:31 All the information we have received from DHS is that
10:11:34 we will stay consistent.
10:11:35 A number of other URBs will drop dramatically.
10:11:41 Even in the event funding is dropped dramatically,
10:11:44 every penny is going towards interoperability.
10:11:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My other question, piggybacking on
10:11:52 that, I used to be in the radio business, before I
10:11:55 went to law school, so I know enough to be dangerous

10:11:58 on this subject.
10:11:59 But it's interest doing me is why the sheriff's office
10:12:02 and the TPD didn't go together on a combo bid or RFP
10:12:10 to accomplish, you know, their main trunk system as
10:12:15 well as our needs for our vehicles and hand held.
10:12:19 But then my other question is this, and this is a
10:12:23 concern that I think probably all of us had when we
10:12:25 heard about it, is the technical committee voted in
10:12:28 favor of Motorola.
10:12:30 But then the Executive Committee, pencil pushers --
10:12:36 sorry, guys -- but the more administrative types, they
10:12:40 went with M/A-COM.
10:12:43 When I heard that, it was a little bit disturbing.
10:12:47 Maybe you can explain that.
10:12:47 >>> The first question, that basically is the reason
10:12:50 for project 25.
10:12:51 The compliance and the universal compliance, because
10:12:54 these are probably the most extensive projects that a
10:12:58 county or a city can endeavor.
10:13:00 And it's very rare that the funding, you know, all the
10:13:03 stars align and the county and the city have the same
10:13:06 funding at the same time to put these in.

10:13:08 If you implemented round-up system it can go from 30
10:13:12 million on.
10:13:13 So that's why you have all these divergent systems in
10:13:15 this project 25 compliance that makes the systems
10:13:20 speak together.
10:13:21 That's the reason for that.
10:13:22 With the technical committee, as I said, we tried to
10:13:25 include everyone, users, dispatchers, you know, we had
10:13:28 ten people on that committee.
10:13:30 There were WMBE points that were given.
10:13:33 There was a potential of five points out of 100.
10:13:37 I believe there were 30-some points that went to
10:13:41 Motorola and not to M/A-COM.
10:13:46 M/A-COM is only going to supply radios and con soles
10:13:48 so there's no possibility for them to go to any
10:13:51 outside contracts.
10:13:52 Therefore, they can't include WMBE.
10:13:54 So there's going to be some infrastructure issues with
10:13:58 Motorola.
10:13:58 They had that opportunity.
10:13:59 So they received more points in that area.
10:14:03 As I said before, we have using M/A-COM systems,

10:14:07 radios, and the coverage issue as far as M/A-COM was
10:14:11 concerned, the coverage issue had been addressed so
10:14:13 there were also some -- a little bit of consternation
10:14:17 over coverage guarantee which M/A-COM came in in the
10:14:21 end and gave us a 95% guarantee on that.
10:14:24 And there really wasn't a big difference.
10:14:26 Technical committee as I said, 10 people, there was a
10:14:29 36-point difference in favor of Motorola, and the
10:14:33 Executive Committee was a 27-point favor for M/A-COM.
10:14:40 >> The good bid is you are now down to 9.4 so you
10:14:45 saved taxpayers a million and a half dollars and you
10:14:46 get the system that you want.
10:14:48 So thank you.
10:14:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me just follow up with a couple of
10:14:51 questions.
10:14:53 I guess I need to hear from the Sheriff's Department
10:14:56 because I heard you say there was no problem with the
10:14:58 system now.
10:14:59 That's not accurate, because when I was on the county,
10:15:01 they had continual problems with the system.
10:15:05 >>> Castor: I can very quickly.
10:15:08 That's another issue that was very near and dear to

10:15:11 TPD, implementation of a radio system is never
10:15:20 seemless or flawless.
10:15:21 It's very difficult to implement a brand new system.
10:15:23 I see that as another benefit of going to M/A-COM
10:15:26 because the sheriff's office went through six years of
10:15:28 getting all the bugs and everything else out of their
10:15:31 system to get a system that everybody is grateful for
10:15:35 today.
10:15:36 So the City of Tampa doesn't have to go through that
10:15:39 implementation process.
10:15:41 We in essence buy the hand held radios and the con
10:15:46 soles and now we are on their system.
10:15:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, here again I want to make sure
10:15:50 on the record, because I know from past experience,
10:15:53 they had major problems with the system.
10:15:56 I was there.
10:15:58 So I want to know that the system is up and they are
10:16:00 not experiencing any problems.
10:16:04 >>> Clyde Eisenberg, a captain with the sheriff's
10:16:07 office.
10:16:08 Good morning.
10:16:09 You are exactly right, back when you were commissioner

10:16:11 there were serious problems with the system.
10:16:13 Originally purchased in 1995.
10:16:16 It was installed approximately 12, 18 months.
10:16:20 There were immediate problems with coverage, static,
10:16:22 dead areas, in-building penetration.
10:16:26 We had meetings with M/A-COM officials for the next
10:16:29 few years.
10:16:29 It wasn't getting anywhere.
10:16:30 We were down to the point that it appears the only way
10:16:33 we were going to have resolution was litigation,
10:16:35 through litigation.
10:16:37 The company changed hands.
10:16:38 It was bought out by a smaller company called COM-net
10:16:43 which took a real interest in having quality systems.
10:16:47 They came and visited us after the present company
10:16:50 came and visited us in '99 or 2000.
10:16:53 Upon spending a very short period of time, less than
10:16:56 half a day here they made a commitment to fix the
10:16:58 system.
10:16:59 They spent approximately $4 million.
10:17:02 They built five additional towers at their expense,
10:17:04 and we converted all of our portable radios over to a

10:17:09 higher technology, digital technology, which we do
10:17:12 have, called pro-voice, and we get those radios at
10:17:16 cost.
10:17:17 Following that, 2001, we gave full acceptance to the
10:17:22 system, and it works great.
10:17:27 As part of that, we are refining the system, a tower
10:17:32 was placed on Tampa General Hospital on the top
10:17:34 because we weren't pleased with the coverage in the
10:17:36 city.
10:17:36 An additional tower was built on Dale Mabry just north
10:17:40 of the stadium.
10:17:41 The city made out very well.
10:17:43 This is one of the -- we are splitting the systems,
10:17:46 east and west system in 2001 so there was five towers
10:17:49 which cover the City of Tampa quite well.
10:17:51 One in Tampa Palms, one at 22nd street, Dale Mabry,
10:17:56 one on top of Tampa general.
10:17:59 So those issues, we remember that.
10:18:04 I lived through it very painfully being a
10:18:06 representative of the patrol back in those days but we
10:18:08 have a very good system.
10:18:09 And as Chief Castor pointed out, we are very close to

10:18:13 having all the money we need for the west system
10:18:15 conversion which is the system which the City of Tampa
10:18:17 will be using.
10:18:18 Essentially, within 18 months, City of Tampa will be
10:18:21 on an entirely brand new system.
10:18:23 To do the east system, to bring the entire county up
10:18:26 to full P-25 capability, if there isn't funding it's
10:18:32 something we have to do. We are 12 years for a lot of
10:18:34 equipment and the towers, and it's not -- but the
10:18:45 county would have to fund fountain we can't get the
10:18:50 other money.
10:18:51 But we can't let our system deteriorate as time goes
10:18:54 on but right now we have a very good operational
10:18:56 system, very little down time if any, measured in
10:19:00 minutes.
10:19:01 Any fault we had as far as system failure has been our
10:19:04 fault, failure to reset breakers, and very limited in
10:19:10 terms of what the city now suffers.
10:19:11 >> So with the city going onto the county system all
10:19:14 the bugs have been worked out now.
10:19:15 I think I heard Chief Castor say earlier that the city
10:19:19 has been working a year with the system interacting

10:19:23 with the county.
10:19:23 Is that accurate?
10:19:24 >>> M/A-COM provided 30 radios to the city and
10:19:29 probably close to two years ago they did it, and that
10:19:32 was so they could test the system, and all the
10:19:34 different areas of the city.
10:19:35 And I don't work with the city, but the chief said
10:19:41 there's been no complaints as far as coverage,
10:19:43 reliability, voice quality during those two years that
10:19:46 the stream and crime squads have been using those
10:19:49 radios.
10:19:49 It's plug and play.
10:19:52 They basically get the equipment, hook the consoles up
10:19:54 in the centers and that's all they have to do and not
10:19:57 go through the very painful experience we had to go
10:20:00 through.
10:20:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Should the city encounter any problems
10:20:03 in trying to make the system work with the county, is
10:20:08 M/A-COM prepared to eat the cost if they have a cost?
10:20:13 >>> In the contract -- and I can't speak specifically
10:20:17 about the contract.
10:20:17 You have to speak to the chief or somebody else about

10:20:19 that.
10:20:19 But there is a contract which has a very specific
10:20:21 agreement as far as coverage and voice quality, which
10:20:24 covers the entire city, you know, prior to payment
10:20:28 being made.
10:20:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Chief, I just want to make sure,
10:20:31 though, because I remember that that was a major issue
10:20:35 with the county, and I want to make sure that once
10:20:39 this is approved that somebody is going to -- if you
10:20:43 have a problem, I'm not saying trees going to be a
10:20:45 problem, but if there's a problem.
10:20:47 You know --
10:20:52 >>CHIEF HOGUE: An owl contracts there are performance
10:20:54 standards, and one is that there be 95% coverage
10:20:58 throughout the city.
10:20:59 And which is the exact same coverage that M/A-COM and
10:21:06 Motorola, I think it's kind of an industry standard.
10:21:09 You are never going to have a radio system that's
10:21:11 perfect.
10:21:12 You are always going to find some places that you have
10:21:15 some difficulty.
10:21:17 But we continue don't anticipate any problem.

10:21:19 We have a very good contract.
10:21:21 And M/A-COM is obligated to meet performance standards
10:21:26 and fulfill the contract.
10:21:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
10:21:28 And last, I think, you told my office that this will
10:21:33 meet the requirements so that we can continue to get
10:21:35 funds from homeland security.
10:21:38 Is that right?
10:21:38 >>> That's correct.
10:21:42 It will be a p-25 compliant.
10:21:44 Everything that we purchase will be P-25 compliant,
10:21:47 radios and consoles so when that technology is in place
10:21:51 with the sheriff's office that we will we will just --
10:21:56 Any other questions?
10:21:57 Thank you, sir.
10:21:59 Any other questions?
10:22:00 Okay.
10:22:02 Is there a motion?
10:22:06 Motion?
10:22:06 >> Move approval.
10:22:09 >> Second.
10:22:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is the motion to include all three

10:22:14 items, 63, 64 and 65?
10:22:26 63 is the interlocal agreement.
10:22:35 You can do them all at once to save tame.
10:22:38 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: 63, 64, 65 as one item.
10:22:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved by councilman Caetano, seconded
10:22:47 by councilwoman Saul-Sena.
10:22:50 Okay, so moved.
10:22:51 Thank you.
10:23:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Didn't hear you, my radio was off.
10:23:15 >> (off microphone).
10:23:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let's do the ordinance presented for
10:23:19 first reading first, 2 and 3.
10:23:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Chairman, it is 10:00.
10:23:27 2 was set to go with number 87.
10:23:29 I don't know if you wish to take that now.
10:23:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Number 2 and 87, yes.
10:23:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Do you wish to have the report on 2
10:23:35 and 87 at this time before the first reading?
10:23:38 I believe you have some people here on that.
10:23:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: On 2 and 87?
10:23:52 >> They are here.
10:23:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: As a matter of housekeeping I

10:23:57 believe we pulled 13 and 14 at my request and I
10:24:00 received the information I needed from Mr. Santiago
10:24:04 Corrada in a very professional and timely fashion.
10:24:06 I appreciate his quick response.
10:24:08 So I can put those -- they can come back off of.
10:24:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
10:24:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And go back into Mrs. Saul-Sena's
10:24:20 setting.
10:24:22 13 and 14.
10:24:25 I did pull 12 and will leave 12 later in staff reports.
10:24:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
10:24:30 Item 2.
10:24:31 Who is doing the presentation on item 2 and 87?
10:24:34 Okay.
10:24:41 >>MARK HUEY: The items before you, 2 and 87 have to do
10:24:44 with initiative in the Heights redevelopment.
10:24:47 One of our CRAs.
10:24:49 As you know, that's one of our largest public-private
10:24:52 partnerships, a new urban community that's planned
10:24:55 along Hillsborough River north of Stetson law school,
10:24:59 ultimately as many as 2,000 residents in new urban
10:25:03 neighborhood.

10:25:04 Because of the market conditions, the project than has
10:25:05 been moved forward.
10:25:07 But developers had worked very hard to try to identify
10:25:12 opportunities to create momentum and move the project
10:25:15 forward.
10:25:15 And they have worked very hard over the past six months
10:25:19 to create an opportunity to do an office building, a
10:25:23 30,000 square foot office building.
10:25:25 And would be anchored by best construction and other
10:25:29 tenants.
10:25:30 Yes, Marty?
10:25:33 >> What I am going to do before you go too far, Mr.
10:25:42 Shelby is not the chairman, okay?
10:25:44 I am the chairman so awe dress all questions to me, and
10:25:46 we'll move along.
10:25:51 Number 87 is a public hearing.
10:25:52 >> So moved.
10:25:58 >> Second.
10:25:58 (Motion carried).
10:26:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone to address council on item 87
10:26:03 which is a public hearing?
10:26:04 Anyone here?

10:26:05 Okay.
10:26:05 All right.
10:26:15 Come forward.
10:26:16 State your full name and address for the record.
10:26:17 87.
10:26:18 >>> Michelle grow, 1804 cabana Avenue, Tampa, Florida
10:26:24 33629.
10:26:25 I'm the vice chair of the Tampa Heights riverfront CRA
10:26:30 committee.
10:26:31 The committee would like it to be known that we fully
10:26:33 support the development of the new bus building and
10:26:37 happy that they chose this area to be their new
10:26:39 location.
10:26:40 Our committee also supports the park ordinance amended
10:26:46 and the ordinance amendment correctly clarifies the
10:26:48 community's intention regarding land use.
10:26:52 They are also for the changes to the development
10:26:53 agreement amendment, and the property conveyance
10:26:57 agreement, in order to facilitate the construction of
10:27:00 the bus building.
10:27:02 Thank you.
10:27:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.

10:27:04 Anyone else?
10:27:04 >>> Joe Robinson, Palmetto street.
10:27:08 I'm here on item 87 and another one.
10:27:11 But on this item, I missed it the first time.
10:27:14 I figured it had to come back because they are
10:27:16 everything some issues with economics.
10:27:18 They need to make sure that this development agreement,
10:27:20 like all other previous development agreements with the
10:27:23 hotel and everything else, represents the minority
10:27:26 business ordinance.
10:27:28 We just had a $9 million bid go out of here, no
10:27:31 ordinance.
10:27:32 We are going to have one tomorrow coming in from
10:27:35 anywhere from 5 to 7 million for the security contract
10:27:39 that's coming in.
10:27:39 So the quicker we can get this ordinance going the
10:27:41 quicker we can get to moving.
10:27:43 So in this one just make sure this agreement represents
10:27:46 that they utilize the minority business ordinance hope
10:27:50 to be approved in a few minutes.
10:27:52 >>SAL TERRITO: Legal department.
10:27:54 What the amendment is doing is simply carving out this

10:27:57 piece to allow it to go forward.
10:27:59 The original development agreement which you passed in
10:28:01 2006 covers all of those issues.
10:28:03 This one is silent because we are only carving out a
10:28:06 small piece of that agreement to allow this project to
10:28:09 go forward.
10:28:10 Under the original agreement there were some
10:28:12 restrictions and this doesn't effect those restrictions
10:28:14 at all.
10:28:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
10:28:17 >>> The item you have before you, you should have got
10:28:19 ten amendment that I sent out a couple of days ago with
10:28:22 the new numbers added.
10:28:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
10:28:25 Thank you.
10:28:26 Anyone else?
10:28:26 Move to close?
10:28:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:28:29 >> Second.
10:28:30 (Motion carried).
10:28:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Huey, do you want to come forward?
10:28:33 >>SAL TERRITO: Yes.

10:28:34 On number 87, we have to have two public hearings and
10:28:37 we have to announce in this public hearing the next
10:28:40 public hearing on that item will be held on the
10:28:42 19th of June at 10 a.m.
10:28:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 19th of June at 10 a.m.
10:28:49 >> And then we have a notice going out in the newspaper
10:28:51 to address that issue as well.
10:28:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Huey.
10:29:03 >>MARK HUEY: Way was saying before, the complex is the
10:29:06 Heights CRA, an office building opportunity that you
10:29:09 have heard to move forward.
10:29:10 There were essentially three stumbling blocks, if you
10:29:14 will in, our currents agreements with them that prevent
10:29:17 the office building moving forward, absent your
10:29:19 approval today.
10:29:20 And I will review those very quickly.
10:29:23 One, the building is being built in a part of
10:29:27 Waterworks Park that was undedicated by this body
10:29:32 sitting as City Council in 2006.
10:29:35 The undedication ordinance did not allow for an office
10:29:38 use on the site that is being contemplated for the
10:29:41 office building.

10:29:43 So that is being corrected, as you have heard.
10:29:46 The correction has been worked out in cooperation with
10:29:48 the neighborhood and the community, and supported by
10:29:51 the community.
10:29:52 And in addition to correcting that particular element,
10:29:56 other healthy conversations occurred between the
10:29:59 developer and the community and those elements of the
10:30:01 conversation have been reflected in the ordinance.
10:30:03 The other two issues have to do with the development
10:30:06 agreement.
10:30:07 There were two performance indicators or standards in
10:30:16 the original development agreement that we use to
10:30:19 ensure that the whole project would move forward.
10:30:22 One, that there's a contemplated land sales
10:30:26 transaction.
10:30:27 Ultimately, the city is going to make available
10:30:30 approximately eight land parcels that it controls
10:30:33 within the Heights redevelopment to the developer and
10:30:36 swap those for other land that the developer currently
10:30:39 owns.
10:30:40 That transaction in our original agreement does not go
10:30:43 forward until the developer has committed to the

10:30:46 infrastructure issues.
10:30:49 That doesn't work under the current agreement because
10:30:52 one of the land parcels, in the ultimate land
10:30:56 transaction, is a site that they want to put the office
10:30:58 building on.
10:30:59 So what we have done is we have created an arrangement
10:31:01 for that one parcel of an ultimately larger land
10:31:05 transaction to be made available to them.
10:31:09 The public concern is what if we provide them the site,
10:31:13 we sell them the site, if you will, today.
10:31:16 The whole project doesn't move forward as planned.
10:31:19 How will the public be protected?
10:31:21 What the developer has agreed to do in the agreements
10:31:23 before you is to provide an irrevocable letter of
10:31:27 credit.
10:31:28 The amount of the value.
10:31:31 We had it appraised at a half million dollars.
10:31:33 So they have agreed to put a letter of credit in place
10:31:36 that in the event they do not move forward on the
10:31:38 project, we can draw on, and therefore make the public
10:31:42 whole for the land disposition.
10:31:46 The third and final item that is major item that is

10:31:49 being dealt with has to do with another one of the
10:31:52 performance standards.
10:31:54 We also had told them that no COs in the original
10:31:58 development agreement, no certificates of occupancy
10:32:01 could be issued for buildings within the Heights
10:32:03 project until they had moved forward with all of the
10:32:07 infrastructure of the neighborhood.
10:32:09 Again, that doesn't work in this scenario, because by
10:32:11 the time this office building is completed and requires
10:32:14 a CO, it's very unlikely they will have moved forward
10:32:17 on that infrastructure.
10:32:19 So for this building only, what we have agreed to do is
10:32:22 in fact issue a certificate of occupancy, in advance of
10:32:27 all the infrastructure going forward, and they have
10:32:30 agreed to move forward on the riverwalk portion of
10:32:35 their infrastructure which is in the Waterworks Park
10:32:38 area.
10:32:39 So all of the riverwalk that they had committed to
10:32:41 build as part of the overall original development
10:32:44 agreement, that it is in water works park, they will
10:32:47 move forward and put in place prior to getting a
10:32:50 certificate of occupancy for the building.

10:32:53 So with that, we felt comfortable with modifying the
10:32:56 original development agreement provision.
10:33:00 What I will say on that matter is that they will be
10:33:03 building the riverwalk not in its ultimate final form
10:33:05 but under the terms within your amended development
10:33:09 agreement.
10:33:10 They will be putting in the hard surface.
10:33:11 They will be putting in benches.
10:33:13 They will be putting in trash receptacles, consistent
10:33:16 with the guidelines in our development agreement.
10:33:21 There are you might recall extensive riverwalk
10:33:23 standards that were put into our original development
10:33:25 agreement.
10:33:25 They won't be doing the lighting and some of the other
10:33:29 embellishments to the project.
10:33:30 Those will come at a later date.
10:33:32 But we are pleased that this part of the infrastructure
10:33:35 will go into place now if this building moves forward.
10:33:39 That is a summary of the three main points.
10:33:41 And we can discuss that further.
10:33:44 The development team is here.
10:33:45 Michael hatchet is here from our CRA there, has been

10:33:49 working on this on a day-to-day basis.
10:33:52 Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
10:33:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank you for the very
10:33:55 in-depth briefing you provided me and other council
10:33:57 members on this point.
10:33:58 I'm very pleased that we are having the same quality
10:34:01 design created in this portion of the riverwalk at this
10:34:04 stage and will add to it as the development goes on.
10:34:07 One quick clarification.
10:34:09 When you talk about the letter of credits to make the
10:34:12 city whole, if the project doesn't go ahead, and I am
10:34:18 very enthusiastic about it, we the city keep the land,
10:34:21 correct?
10:34:23 >>> No, what this is contemplating is the scenario
10:34:25 where they move forward on the office building, that in
10:34:28 fact it's built, but in the future the whole project
10:34:30 doesn't move forward.
10:34:31 And so we don't do the ultimate land swap.
10:34:34 That's where the letter of credit provides us security
10:34:37 that they would in effect pay us for the land.
10:34:41 Remember in the original development agreement that we
10:34:44 have with them, what is contemplated is basically an

10:34:49 apples for apples swap of land.
10:34:51 And it was all anticipated to be done at once.
10:34:57 They have come to us and said, in order to get this
10:34:59 office building done, we want to do it on one of those
10:35:02 city-owned parcels but it not time to do the whole land
10:35:05 swap.
10:35:06 So in effect, councilwoman Saul-Sena, what could occur
10:35:10 is that the building would go up and be COed so we
10:35:15 could never take the property back.
10:35:20 But in that event where it doesn't move forward we are
10:35:22 collateralized on the half million dollars which is the
10:35:24 appraised market value of the property and that's how
10:35:27 we will be made whole.
10:35:29 >> Let me clarify something that's really significant.
10:35:33 Original plan for Tampa Heights had a very ambitious
10:35:36 and handsome streetscape component to it.
10:35:39 The whole project assumed that streets would be
10:35:43 recreated at different angles to maximize the city
10:35:46 views, that there be significant private investment and
10:35:51 the trees, brick streets, granite curbs, all that jazz.
10:35:57 If the developer should change over time, would the
10:36:01 commitments made to the public realm improvements

10:36:03 remain intact?
10:36:06 >>> Nothing about what you are approving today changes
10:36:08 in any way their commitment under the original
10:36:11 development agreement, and their original entitlement,
10:36:17 the rezoning.
10:36:18 None of that is being changed today.
10:36:20 And to the extent they had any different ideas about
10:36:22 that in the future, they would have to come before this
10:36:24 body and visit with you and seek your approval on any
10:36:30 modifications to their overall entitlement and
10:36:32 redevelopment plan.
10:36:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:36:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions?
10:36:38 Okay.
10:36:42 >>SAL TERRITO: Housekeeping.
10:36:45 The development agreement that's before you today and
10:36:47 the other agreement dealing with the property itself,
10:36:50 you have a public hearing on those items today.
10:36:52 You are really not going to take final action until
10:36:54 June 19th at 10 a.m.
10:36:55 This is the public hearing to give the public a chance
10:36:57 to address that issue.

10:36:59 On the ordinance that you put on first reading today if
10:37:01 you are in agreement with this, we do have some change
10:37:04 that I would like to submit at this particular time for
10:37:07 your consideration.
10:37:08 The uses in the park porks have been refined over time.
10:37:14 Several were concerned can we put a bench there?
10:37:17 Can we put a gazebo there?
10:37:19 So the developer, the city and CRA advisory committee
10:37:23 met several times and came up with a list of items that
10:37:25 all three groups agree with adding and what I would
10:37:28 like to do at this particular time is give you a copy
10:37:32 of the changes so we can discuss those with you.
10:37:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Give that to Mr. Miranda.
10:37:38 To read the ordinance for first reading.
10:37:54 >>SAL TERRITO: That would be number 4.
10:37:56 What it is, they are adding a few items to what will be
10:37:58 allowed in the park parcel.
10:38:00 Parcel that's going to be kept.
10:38:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What I would like to have is the
10:38:04 ordinance so we can read that.
10:38:07 And it's going to be a part of that.
10:38:09 >>> You should have the ordinance in front of you.

10:38:11 All we are changing is page number 4.
10:38:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I thought you said there were some
10:38:15 changes.
10:38:16 >>> I'm sorry, that is the change.
10:38:17 The ordinance, I'm sorry, there is some confusion.
10:38:20 The ordinance you had which is part of your package.
10:38:22 This is a change to that original ordinance on page 4
10:38:25 of that ordinance.
10:38:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Item number 2.
10:38:31 Ordinance for first reading.
10:38:32 An ordinance of the city of Tampa, Florida amending
10:38:35 ordinance 2006-296, by clarifying and modifying the
10:38:40 list of allowable uses on the property formerly known
10:38:43 as the Tampa Waterworks Park, clarifying the list of
10:38:47 restrictions were intended to apply only to the
10:38:50 historic and nonhistoric portions of the pumping
10:38:52 station structure, repealing all ordinances in
10:38:54 conflict, providing for severability, providing an
10:38:56 effective date.
10:38:59 With an added page number 4 amendment that is in blue
10:39:05 italics.
10:39:05 Do I need to read that?

10:39:07 >> I don't think you need to read that part of the
10:39:09 ordinance.
10:39:10 >>MARY MULHERN: I read it.
10:39:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It's been moved by councilman Miranda,
10:39:16 seconded by councilman Dingfelder.
10:39:18 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
10:39:20 Okay.
10:39:20 And second reading is --
10:39:25 >>THE CLERK: Second reading on June 19th at 10:00.
10:39:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:39:31 Thank you.
10:39:33 >>> Those resolution does not have to Pabst dad.
10:39:42 They will be heard at the second public hearing on 87.
10:39:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
10:39:46 Thank you.
10:39:47 Item number 3.
10:39:53 Being read for first reading.
10:39:54 Anyone need to address council on that?
10:39:57 Councilman Dingfelder?
10:40:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Would you like me to read it?
10:40:02 >> Yes, sir.
10:40:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move the following ordinance upon

10:40:04 first reading, an ordinance authorizing the
10:40:07 installation and maintenance of encroachments of a
10:40:10 canopy and architectural decorative features by Hyde
10:40:14 Park partners, LLC over the right-of-way known as 2401
10:40:19 west Azeele street Tampa, Florida as more particularly
10:40:21 described in section 1 subject to certain terms,
10:40:24 covenants conditions and agreements as more
10:40:26 particularly described herein providing an effective
10:40:28 date.
10:40:28 >>MARY MULHERN: I just wanted to make sure that awning
10:40:33 is going on Azeele, and not on any of the other sides.
10:40:42 Anybody from land development?
10:41:00 >> Ryan Robinson, RMC Property Group, 1733 west
10:41:01 Fletcher Avenue.
10:41:02 To answer your question, yes, ma'am, it is.
10:41:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I had called our zoning staff
10:41:09 recently to review the plans that had been adopted
10:41:11 because my memory was that we were going to make this
10:41:14 rather stark building attractive.
10:41:16 And I need a little reassurance from you that indeed we
10:41:20 are.
10:41:20 Because if you go down Platt right now, it looks like a

10:41:23 three-story brick penitentiary, and it's going to be a
10:41:27 Publix, and we all know that Publix are very friendly
10:41:31 and attractive, so reassure me what you are going to
10:41:34 put on the Platt Street side that will soften that
10:41:37 three-story brick --
10:41:39 >> They are going to put a mosaic up there.
10:41:42 There's a couple things they are doing.
10:41:43 I don't know if you go by it on a daily basis but we
10:41:49 had weekly meetings out there. There's just a number
10:41:51 of things that are evolving.
10:41:53 I'm sure you have seen the panel siding and some of the
10:41:58 wire mesh to bring out some of the architectural
10:42:01 features on that side.
10:42:03 >> But you are going to have some plant material creep
10:42:05 up that mesh?
10:42:06 >>> No, actually we are not.
10:42:09 We hadn't planned on doing that.
10:42:11 >> Well, whatever you can do to make that more
10:42:13 attractive because that street has a huge amount of
10:42:16 traffic and I heard from book owners across the street
10:42:21 that hopefully what council approved is a little more
10:42:24 pleasant and friendly, will soften that facade.

10:42:28 >>> Absolutely.
10:42:28 I will bring that back to my team.
10:42:30 >>: Plants will be great.
10:42:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Do we have a second?
10:42:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
10:42:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor let it be known by Aye.
10:42:40 Opposes?
10:42:44 The next reading will be --
10:42:48 >> Second reading and adoption will be on June
10:42:50 19th.
10:42:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We will now have our committee reports.
10:42:56 Public safety councilwoman Gwen Miller.
10:43:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Move 4 and 5 and number 6 I have a
10:43:02 substitute resolution.
10:43:04 I move 7 through 11.
10:43:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
10:43:09 (Motion carried).
10:43:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Item number 12, Mr. Dingfelder wants to
10:43:16 talk about.
10:43:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let's hold it for a minute.
10:43:19 Parks and recreation.
10:43:20 Councilwoman Saul-Sena.

10:43:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move resolutions 13
10:43:24 through 21.
10:43:25 >> Second.
10:43:29 (Motion carried).
10:43:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So moved.
10:43:32 Public works.
10:43:33 Councilman Charlie Miranda.
10:43:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move 22 through 26.
10:43:40 >> Second.
10:43:41 (Motion carried).
10:43:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Finance Committee, councilwoman Mary
10:43:45 Mulhern.
10:43:56 Zoning and building, Joseph Caetano.
10:43:59 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I would like to move items 39
10:44:01 through 51.
10:44:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
10:44:10 39 to 42.
10:44:12 Oh, wait a minute, I'm on the wrong page.
10:44:23 (Motion carried).
10:44:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Would you read number 44?
10:44:26 It's required we read that to the public.
10:44:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: A public hearing will be held

10:44:30 regarding a proposed brownfield designation applied for
10:44:32 by Envirofocus technologies LLC for adjacent lands
10:44:38 totaling approximately 18.2 acres located in the
10:44:42 general vicinity of 1901, 1902 and 1905 north 66th
10:44:47 street, and vacant contiguous parcels southwest of the
10:44:51 intersection of north 66th Street and east 14th
10:44:53 Avenue in the City of Tampa.
10:44:54 This public hearing will be held at the Envirofocus
10:44:58 technology LLC office located at 1901 north 66th
10:45:02 street in Tampa, Florida on Wednesday, June 25th,
10:45:06 2008, at 5:30 p.m., until no later than 7 p.m.
10:45:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We need a motion.
10:45:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
10:45:16 >> Second.
10:45:16 (Motion carried).
10:45:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Going back now to councilwoman Mulhern,
10:45:21 Finance Committee.
10:45:23 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10:45:29 I move items 27 through 38.
10:45:31 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
10:45:33 (Motion carried).
10:45:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Transportation committee, councilman

10:45:37 Dingfelder.
10:45:37 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move items 45 through 51.
10:45:41 >> Second.
10:45:41 (Motion carried).
10:45:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Chairman --
10:45:47 So moved and ordered.
10:45:48 >> I just want to commend staff in regard to item
10:45:50 number 46 which is the purchase of bio diesel in the
10:45:55 amount of 2,800 that you for use of public works and
10:45:58 maintenance, and I think that goes along with our
10:46:02 city's commitment to being greener, and getting away
10:46:05 from our dependence on foreign oil.
10:46:11 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Can I ask, how do they buy this?
10:46:14 >> They bid it out.
10:46:16 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: When they oh need it they bought
10:46:18 it at that price?
10:46:23 >> Okay, move those items set for public hearing.
10:46:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I believe Ms. Cole has an issue with
10:46:28 you regards to number 56.
10:46:29 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
10:46:31 As relates to the setting of the public hearing in
10:46:33 system item number 56 I have just been informed by the

10:46:35 petitioner or asking for the appeal they are not
10:46:40 available on July 17th and request it be scheduled
10:46:44 for August 7th at 1:30.
10:46:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: August 7th.
10:46:58 Motion on those items.
10:47:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move items 53
10:47:06 through 79 set for public hearing.
10:47:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 59.
10:47:12 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: 59 with the change of date for item
10:47:14 56 set for August 7th.
10:47:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor let it be known by Aye.
10:47:19 Opposed same sign.
10:47:20 Thank you very much.
10:47:23 Councilman Dingfelder had a question on item 12 that
10:47:26 was pulled.
10:47:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I didn't know if staff was here.
10:47:35 David?
10:47:36 I think you got my e-mail on this item.
10:47:43 This item is just a run of the mill put a roof on our
10:47:48 fire house, for $130,000, so we bid it out and got a
10:47:52 low bid.
10:47:53 But Ms. Saul-Sena had mentioned a couple of years back,

10:47:56 and I think with a lot of foresight, and pointed out
10:48:02 that there are many cities, and in particular thinking
10:48:04 about Chicago, where the city is going towards more
10:48:10 green roofs.
10:48:12 And the more I read about these green roofs, I think
10:48:17 that they have numerous benefits that I can see.
10:48:20 They decrease stormwater run-off, which is good for the
10:48:25 environment, good for the bay.
10:48:29 They decrease heat.
10:48:30 So the total environment.
10:48:31 And I think if they are done right, they can decrease
10:48:34 energy costs for the life Tim of the building.
10:48:37 So I recognize -- and I am not going to try to hold up
10:48:42 this particular roof.
10:48:43 That's not my intent.
10:48:44 As I said, we don't want to hold up progress with the
10:48:47 fire department.
10:48:47 But I think that as we progress, we need to -- and work
10:48:53 hand in hand with Thom Snelling being now our green
10:48:56 officer, and I was hoping he might be here but I think
10:48:58 he might be off this week, but I was hoping we might be
10:49:02 heading more toward green roofs.

10:49:06 >>> David: Contract administration.
10:49:09 The green roof issue, certainly this project is a
10:49:12 reroofing project.
10:49:14 And whenever you are talking about vegetative roofs,
10:49:17 green roofs or vegetative roofs you have structural
10:49:20 issues to deal with on an existing building.
10:49:22 And in general, it will be very difficult to retrofit a
10:49:25 building for a vegetative roof.
10:49:28 However, one of the things that was omitted from the
10:49:30 background that you received is the material that we
10:49:32 are using.
10:49:33 And it is material manufactured by CP Mr. AS the, a
10:49:41 member of the rating council.
10:49:43 The material we are using is actually a later
10:49:45 generation than the material that we used on the Tampa
10:49:48 Convention Center.
10:49:49 It meets the LEED requirements for roofing.
10:49:57 They require a minimum reflectant of 7.8.
10:50:01 This has .9.
10:50:02 One of the reasons we wanted to use this material as we
10:50:05 have on our other is that it maintains this rating
10:50:09 throughout the life of the roof without being

10:50:11 supplemental coatings for maintenance.
10:50:14 That certainly is a benefit to us.
10:50:18 It's estimated that this kind of roof reduces heat gain
10:50:21 on a building by about 15%, from the roof itself.
10:50:25 And so this is a project that has taken that in mind
10:50:29 from the beginning.
10:50:30 This is about a fourth or fifth major city roof that we
10:50:35 have reroofed in this way.
10:50:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And I appreciate that.
10:50:40 And I'm not surprised, David, because you have been
10:50:42 doing a good job on upgrading the quality of the
10:50:45 product that we are buying.
10:50:46 So I think that's a good thing.
10:50:47 I have observed the convention scepter roof, and I know
10:50:50 what you are talking about.
10:50:55 I know what you are saying, that when you put a
10:50:57 vegetative roof on there's a potential it's going to be
10:51:01 heavier and you have to deal with the structural
10:51:02 issues.
10:51:03 However, I am going to guess that we probably didn't
10:51:05 really explore it for this building or the other roofs
10:51:11 that we have done just because it's not really in our

10:51:14 mind-set.
10:51:14 So I would hope that, you know, that down the road,
10:51:21 maybe even a small roof, maybe even as a demonstration
10:51:23 project, that we might look into it.
10:51:26 I can't picture very many green roofs in this city, if
10:51:30 any, but I think it might be a nice thing if the City
10:51:33 of Tampa was going to lead by example and doing one.
10:51:37 >>> Certainly that is something that's under
10:51:39 consideration for us.
10:51:40 I will share with you that on our earlier roofs, we did
10:51:44 do that analysis, and it's not even close in terms of
10:51:46 the weight that it adds to a building.
10:51:50 So it's not the potential for more weight, it is the
10:51:52 actuality of more weight, that is well and above the
10:51:57 normal design parameters for a roof.
10:51:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
10:52:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Saul-Sena, then councilman
10:52:03 Caetano.
10:52:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I appreciate we are going to the
10:52:06 cool roof.
10:52:07 I know as we build new structures in the city we are
10:52:09 looking at them being LEED certified, and that a green

10:52:13 roof would be a possibility.
10:52:14 I want to share with my fellow council members that the
10:52:17 building, the thing we just approved in Tampa Heights
10:52:20 is just going to ultimately be an office building,
10:52:23 built by Beck, is going to have a green roof and I
10:52:26 think it will be the first green roof in the city.
10:52:28 And I think it's telling the chamber is going to be the
10:52:32 occupant of that structure.
10:52:33 And I think that's very exciting as a symbol for moving
10:52:36 ahead to a more sustainable-built environment.
10:52:40 It's exciting.
10:52:43 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Are there any requirements of how
10:52:47 many minorities participate in this particular
10:52:49 contract?
10:52:50 >>> Yes.
10:52:51 The goal for this project was 2.4%.
10:52:55 That is relatively low goal but when you consider that
10:52:57 this work as part of a whole bidding construction, a
10:53:04 contractible item itself, you expect a low goal.
10:53:06 The low bidder has committed to 2% on a 2.4 goal.
10:53:10 >> 2% --
10:53:14 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: It's really not that much.

10:53:16 >> No, but 2.4% of 130,000 is not much either.
10:53:22 >> Who sets the standards?
10:53:23 >>> The goal is set by the WMBE office and my office
10:53:26 and purchasing.
10:53:27 There's a goal setting meeting prior to the bid.
10:53:29 >> Is this the same roof in the convention center?
10:53:34 >>> It is actually a later generation of that material,
10:53:37 which has a higher rating than the material that's on
10:53:41 the convention center.
10:53:42 >>: Thank you.
10:53:44 Do we go to a representative or directly to the
10:53:46 factory?
10:53:47 >>> We purchase the material directly from the factory
10:53:49 to save on the sales tax.
10:53:51 The installation is bid competitively.
10:53:53 There were eight bidders.
10:53:57 >> The last bidder, do you know what type -- he was
10:54:02 234,000?
10:54:06 Do you know what type of material he was using?
10:54:08 >>> The eighth bidder and almost twice the low price.
10:54:13 >> Is it possible that I personally can get this
10:54:16 information weeks before instead of the week of the

10:54:20 award?
10:54:21 >>> Absolutely.
10:54:22 If you go to the city's web page and go to the upper
10:54:25 right-hand corner where it says selected department,
10:54:27 click on contract administration, that will take you to
10:54:30 a page that will let you see every active bid that we
10:54:33 have, every active RFQ for consultants, as well as the
10:54:37 link to the purchasing department for all of theirs.
10:54:41 >> When were these bids open, April 1st?
10:54:43 >>> I don't have that date.
10:54:44 Approximately two, three weeks ago, yes, sir.
10:54:50 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10:54:52 I have to add my roof is not green.
10:54:54 My roof is brownish red.
10:54:56 But I'll tell you one thing.
10:54:57 My electric bill is down about 30%.
10:54:59 And it wasn't for the roof.
10:55:03 I did do the insulation inside on the ceiling, and I
10:55:06 put in new windows, and I painted my house with some
10:55:11 type of material, and it's down 30%.
10:55:17 And I can tell you every month I am going to turn in my
10:55:19 water bill and my electric bill to the clerk so if I

10:55:22 can do it, everybody else can do it.
10:55:26 It takes a little money.
10:55:27 And I'm planning to do a lot more.
10:55:29 And whatever properties I may have in the city, they
10:55:32 are all going to go the way I'm going.
10:55:34 If I have a rental house, they are going to have the
10:55:36 same thing that I have.
10:55:37 And I plan to do that real soon.
10:55:40 And I have even looked into putting a windmill to
10:55:45 collect the electricity and the little items that you
10:55:48 buy.
10:55:48 But they are kind of expensive like about $45,000 a
10:55:51 house.
10:55:52 So I am waiting next year, talked to some individuals
10:55:55 that say next year it should be down by 50% so at that
10:55:58 time when it comes down a little bit more I'll buy it.
10:56:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions?
10:56:08 >> Move item number 12.
10:56:12 >> Second.
10:56:13 (Motion carried).
10:56:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So moved.
10:56:16 Mr. Smith has an 11:00 meeting.

10:56:20 Item number 67.
10:56:21 With the staff reports, we will take item 67 and Mrs.
10:56:24 Miller we will take your item 60.
10:56:26 >>DAVID SMITH: Thank you very much.
10:56:29 For the purpose of disclosure since this is a sunshine
10:56:31 act meeting I had asked had asked Mr. Shelby to ask
10:56:39 you. That is part of the communication on the record
10:56:41 part of what we do.
10:56:42 Item number 67 is framed in part to discuss the
10:56:44 enforcement activities of our nonsolicitation in the
10:56:48 right-of-way ordinance and I have had some discussions
10:56:51 with councilman Caetano.
10:56:52 Would I would encourage this council to do, however, is
10:56:55 to consider some potential legislative solutions to the
10:56:58 issue.
10:57:00 As I know you heard from me often, that is uniquely
10:57:04 your purview, and I believe the problems that Mr.
10:57:07 Caetano is observing in his district is particularly
10:57:11 egregious along Bruce B. Downs Boulevard.
10:57:15 Having traveled that road many times myself I know what
10:57:18 he's speaking about.
10:57:19 It's a bit of a nut house sometimes.

10:57:26 That part of the roadway I think offers unique
10:57:29 opportunities but will require a change in our
10:57:30 ordinance.
10:57:31 What do I mean?
10:57:32 I mean I think we should specifically consider that we
10:57:35 prohibit all activities in a median and that's for
10:57:41 health, safety reasons.
10:57:43 You have got traffic going back and forth.
10:57:45 It's a dangerous situation.
10:57:47 In addition, on Bruce B. Downs, it would seem to me
10:57:51 it's I am appropriate to have people soliciting
10:57:53 commercially or otherwise on unimproved areas of
10:57:57 sidewalks.
10:57:58 For example, sidewalks are public FORA.
10:58:02 We cannot do whatever we want to do on sidewalks
10:58:05 because they are public FORA, the public is entitled to
10:58:09 be there to speak, to do a variety of things including
10:58:12 solicit others.
10:58:13 But it is reasonable to require that these be improved
10:58:17 public FORA so there's appropriate safety mechanisms,
10:58:21 meaning there's lots of other places that have
10:58:23 sidewalks where you can express yourself in a manner

10:58:26 consistent with the first amendment, without putting
10:58:28 yourself and drivers and others at risk.
10:58:32 So my point is, what I understand the nature of the
10:58:36 problems are, we do not have an adequate way to address
10:58:39 those under our currents ordinance and we would
10:58:44 encourage you if it is your intent that we look at our
10:58:47 ordinance and consider alternates.
10:58:48 Just for your information, the county ordinance as I
10:58:51 understand it has a complete prohibition.
10:58:54 So your other alternative, if we do not have an
10:58:58 ordinance we would fall under the county ordinance
10:58:59 because under the arrangement in the county charter, if
10:59:03 they have an ordinance, it's countywide in its
10:59:06 application, unless it specifically says it is not or
10:59:10 unless the city has an ordinance enacted to address the
10:59:13 same issues.
10:59:14 We currently have such an ordinance.
10:59:16 So I give you that by way of background.
10:59:18 I think it would be perhaps the best use of your time
10:59:22 to focus on a legislative solution to the problem as
10:59:25 you understood it, rather than spend too much time
10:59:28 enforcing it.

10:59:30 Unfortunately actions are not affected because the
10:59:32 ordinance is not conducive to effective enforcement.
10:59:36 I hope that answers your question but I am certainly
10:59:38 here to answer any more questions.
10:59:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: As you well know, these things set a
10:59:48 not too pleasing aspect with people driving to the city
10:59:51 and on every corner you have people trying to solicit
10:59:54 something.
10:59:54 However, that being said, the county ordinance, I think
10:59:56 that being enforced as well as the city ordinance.
10:59:59 Let me tell you why.
11:00:00 When I used to drive all the way to Oldsmar to go to
11:00:04 work in the morning on different corners, they were
11:00:06 selling newspapers.
11:00:06 I don't want a first amendment right or whatever
11:00:10 amendment it is, to say you can't sell papers.
11:00:14 They are all in the median, they are all on the
11:00:16 sidewalk, especially on the corner of Sheldon and
11:00:21 Hillsborough area and memorial Boulevard, all through
11:00:23 that intersection there.
11:00:24 And weapon you get even to the western part of the
11:00:26 county on racetrack road and Hillsborough Avenue, west

11:00:29 Hillsborough you have the same thing.
11:00:32 At every street that I go through Sunday, everyplace
11:00:41 that has a traffic count you are going to have the same
11:00:43 operation.
11:00:44 I don't know, you had to come get a special permit to
11:00:47 get permitted to build these kind of activities on the
11:00:50 median of the city streets.
11:00:52 And you had to have insurance, and you had to be
11:00:56 bonded.
11:00:56 I remember I think two individuals, two groups, I
11:00:59 should say, the firefighters boot drive, or the camp in
11:01:05 the southern part of the state, and also the Shriners,
11:01:11 that would apply, and then there are others who don't
11:01:15 apply, and you find them there with a white thing or
11:01:19 yellow thing or bucket or whatever it is.
11:01:20 I don't know who they are.
11:01:22 And I'm sure they mean well.
11:01:23 But do I really know what they are doing?
11:01:26 I know what the Shriners are doing.
11:01:28 And I know what the boots are doing.
11:01:30 And that's giving back whatever they collect to the
11:01:33 ones that really need it, the burn victims of the area,

11:01:36 and the Shriners.
11:01:40 No matter who you are, what race, what color, what
11:01:43 creed, tall, or skinny, bald or not, I think I have
11:01:49 covered that, but they do something in return, and they
11:01:52 go out to collect funds for that reason.
11:01:54 I don't know.
11:01:56 We have somehow forgotten what happened.
11:01:58 And on every street corner on a busy day on an
11:02:01 intersection you find them, downtown, you find them
11:02:04 everywhere.
11:02:04 So I don't know if this is appropriate or not.
11:02:06 But I understand what you are saying.
11:02:10 Mr. Smith, it's very hard to enforce these things
11:02:12 because you have to have police.
11:02:16 Somebody has got to tell them, show me your ID, you
11:02:19 have a permit.
11:02:20 I don't know if we have gone away from the permitting
11:02:22 or not.
11:02:22 That's the question that I have.
11:02:24 >>DAVID SMITH: Just so we are clear again.
11:02:27 David Smith, city attorney.
11:02:28 Legal department has a concern with the permitting

11:02:29 process.
11:02:31 In first amendment areas you can have appropriate time,
11:02:34 place and manner restrictions.
11:02:36 The permit process has an implication of discretionary
11:02:40 review and approval.
11:02:42 That presents a problem.
11:02:43 So if we are going to have a permit process, or some
11:02:46 other kind of minimum requirement, we need to be very
11:02:48 careful of how we structure that.
11:02:51 So that's part of the problem with the enforcement.
11:02:55 You need to really avoid anything that can be seen as
11:03:00 content based or anything other than neutral, time,
11:03:04 place and manner restriction.
11:03:06 >> That being said, sir, are we then saying that there
11:03:09 is no insurance on these individuals?
11:03:12 >>> I believe the correct answer to your question is,
11:03:15 if there is, we are not enforcing that currently.
11:03:18 And should not.
11:03:19 >> Then anybody can do whatever they want.
11:03:21 >>> Currently.
11:03:23 >> And if we change, no one can do whatever they want.
11:03:26 >>> We would recommend that we have a bright line cast

11:03:30 as a first amendment issue and specifically with regard
11:03:33 to medians.
11:03:35 Medians are in the middle of the a roadway.
11:03:38 The rationale for a prohibition on what would otherwise
11:03:41 be a first amendment activity is pretty clear.
11:03:44 Excuse me, it's clear and it's strong.
11:03:46 We are protecting the health, safety and welfare of the
11:03:48 public.
11:03:48 We would go to court on that all day long.
11:03:52 Hopefully it wouldn't take all day.
11:03:55 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Smith, if we adopt the county
11:03:58 ordinance as we did with the safety zones that are in
11:04:06 the senior areas, we could enforce that?
11:04:10 >>DAVID SMITH: Again I repeat, the record reflects --
11:04:14 David Smith, city attorney.
11:04:15 I wouldn't want to suggest, and I have that I have a
11:04:21 great familiarity with the county ordinance but if what
11:04:23 you are saying is the county has adopted an ordinance
11:04:25 that has a prohibition with the exception of activities
11:04:27 out of safety zones, I would like to look at that.
11:04:30 That could be interesting.
11:04:31 And, yes, we could either adopt a similar ordinance, or

11:04:35 we could repeal ours if we like the county ordinance as
11:04:39 it is, and it would be enforced in the city in the
11:04:43 manner in which it's been drafted.
11:04:46 I wouldn't tell you today I am prepared to recommend
11:04:48 that.
11:04:48 I would want to go through every line of that ordinance
11:04:53 before I would say that.
11:04:54 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I was told by the police officers
11:04:56 up on Bruce B. Downs Boulevard, they were told not to
11:04:59 enforce that particular ordinance.
11:05:04 >> The county ordinance?
11:05:05 >>> No, our ordinance.
11:05:06 >> I believe that's correct.
11:05:07 >>> Because evidently it's a county road, and we have
11:05:10 jurisdiction to --
11:05:20 >> What Julia is telling me there's a portion of that
11:05:22 road that is within the jurisdiction of the county.
11:05:25 The issue, if what you are asking me is what can we do
11:05:29 to make this enforceable on Bruce B. Downs, and if in
11:05:33 fact that's solely within the county jurisdiction, we
11:05:36 would have to work with the county on that.
11:05:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So, in, summary, what would you

11:05:45 recommend?
11:05:47 >> I would recommend that we come back to you within 30
11:05:50 to 45 days, maybe your first meeting in August, with a
11:05:56 summary of the different alternatives, and see what
11:06:00 this board wants to do in light of those alternatives.
11:06:03 I believe to workshop it --
11:06:06 There's a motion on the floor.
11:06:07 Let me speak to the motion.
11:06:08 My concern is if you move to a city-wide ban, at that
11:06:13 point, is it enforceable?
11:06:15 And, if so, what is the cost going to be?
11:06:21 Next, do you know a lot of charities stand in your
11:06:24 median including Jerry's kids and all the firefighters
11:06:28 and churches and candidates for public office stand in
11:06:31 the median.
11:06:32 So just be aware that all these people are going to be
11:06:37 banned from standing in the median and it's going to be
11:06:39 enforced.
11:06:40 So just keep that in mind when we come back.
11:06:45 There's a motion.
11:06:46 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
11:06:48 Opposes?

11:06:50 Thank you.
11:06:51 Ms. Miller.
11:06:53 Item number 60; this is the affordable housing advisory
11:07:01 committee.
11:07:01 >>CINDY MILLER: Director of growth management
11:07:05 development services.
11:07:07 Item 60 is an interview or a presentation by
11:07:13 individuals who have applied for the affordable housing
11:07:15 advisory committee.
11:07:18 Just to give you some background on this committee.
11:07:20 It is a state statute that requires that we put
11:07:22 together as the city this advisory committee to report
11:07:28 back to the City Council and administration in
11:07:30 December.
11:07:32 Let me just read for you the qualifications or
11:07:36 background of the individuals for those appointed
11:07:44 members that would be appointed by City Council.
11:07:46 In one case it is one citizen who is actively engaged
11:07:49 as a real estate professional in connection with
11:07:50 affordable housing, one city who actively serves on the
11:07:54 local planning agency pursuant to 163.3174.
11:08:00 The third is one citizen who resides within the City of

11:08:02 Tampa.
11:08:03 Number four is one citizen who represents employers
11:08:06 within the City of Tampa.
11:08:08 And number 5, one citizen who represents essential
11:08:11 service personnel as defined in the local housing
11:08:14 assistance plan.
11:08:15 And let me clarify a little bit for each of these.
11:08:18 You have received a number of applications.
11:08:22 We have presented them through the clerk's office, you
11:08:24 have presented that all of them are residents of the
11:08:27 City of Tampa.
11:08:28 We do have two individuals I believe that have
11:08:32 indicated that they hold real estate licenses.
11:08:34 But brought to your attention when it comes to a real
11:08:38 estate professional it would be that it would have to
11:08:40 be at this point in connection with affordable housing.
11:08:44 So that is one reason why we are -- that would have to
11:08:49 be addressed in either the questions, answers or in
11:08:51 their presentation.
11:08:52 We also do not know for the individuals when it comes
11:08:55 to essential service personnel if any would qualify.
11:08:58 We do have two individuals.

11:09:01 We are not sure, but since we can't ask their family
11:09:05 incomes we were not able to help define that for you.
11:09:07 But let me read what an essential service personnel is
11:09:11 according to our current plans.
11:09:12 Essential service personnel are assigned to include but
11:09:17 not limited to teachers, educates, all public safety
11:09:20 personnel, health care personnel, skilled building
11:09:24 trades personnel and all city residents that are
11:09:26 full-time employees earning less than 120% of their
11:09:29 immediate -- area median income.
11:09:32 Again we did not have that information.
11:09:34 If any of the applicants would qualify, I do have the
11:09:39 charts that are the income guidelines and I would be
11:09:41 happy to share that with those individuals.
11:09:46 When it comes to these appointments, there are at least
11:09:49 two categories that we currently do not have applicants
11:09:51 before you.
11:09:52 One is the planning agency representative.
11:09:55 I had sent a letter to Bob Hunter, director of the
11:09:57 Planning Commission, asking that he present to the
11:10:01 commission, at the request of the city to have a
11:10:05 representative appointed that would then come back

11:10:07 before City Council.
11:10:08 I believe they meet on June 9th.
11:10:10 As to employers, I have made some very, very
11:10:14 preliminary contact with the Tampa Chamber of Commerce,
11:10:18 the other local chambers would also be appropriate to
11:10:21 be in contact or to have them possibly send
11:10:25 representatives to apply before you.
11:10:27 Let me also mention one other things that -- thing that
11:10:30 I think would be appropriate as you conclude and
11:10:32 determine appointments after the interview, and that is
11:10:37 if you are not able to appoint persons that are
11:10:46 directly involved in affordable housing, you do have
11:10:49 authority to determine -- and I'll read right from both
11:10:53 the statute and the ordinance -- if the governing body,
11:10:56 whether due to the city's size, the presence of
11:10:58 conflict of interest by perspective appointees or other
11:11:02 reasonable factors, is unable to appoint a citizen
11:11:05 actively engaged in these activities, in conjunction
11:11:08 with -- in connection with affordable housing, a
11:11:12 citizen actively engaged in activities without regard
11:11:16 to affordable housing may be appointed.
11:11:18 So you do have some latitude as to that affordable

11:11:22 housing criteria. I just wanted to spell that out.
11:11:25 I don't know, Mr. Chairman, and I will now turn it over
11:11:27 to the city clerk.
11:11:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Miller.
11:11:34 Do we have persons here who want to address council?
11:11:50 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: City clerk.
11:11:50 For the resident of the City of Tampa category, we have
11:11:55 David Lapedis, Ron Carpenter, Herold Lord, Anthony
11:12:03 LaColla, Mark Bentley, Lorena Colin Hendricks.
11:12:09 And as noted Mr. Bentley will not be able to attend,
11:12:15 and Mr. Herold Lord.
11:12:17 Other than that, Mr. Lapedis, if he's here.
11:12:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: State your name and address for the
11:12:26 record.
11:12:26 Sir, you have two minutes.
11:12:27 >> Thank you, sir.
11:12:30 Still morning.
11:12:31 Good morning.
11:12:32 My name is David Lapedis, I reside at 3412 west San
11:12:36 Jose street in the City of Tampa.
11:12:38 I am a resident of the City of Tampa since 1986, and
11:12:42 just to give you a little bit of background, I have

11:12:44 been involved in financing affordable housing in the
11:12:47 State of Florida, and in Hillsborough County for over
11:12:50 20 years I have represented the Florida Housing Finance
11:12:52 Corporation as both its special counsel and as bond
11:12:58 counsel.
11:12:58 I have served over 15 years on the Hillsborough County
11:13:02 housing finance authority bringing over 4,000 units of
11:13:07 multifamily affordable housing to the entire county.
11:13:11 And I don't know how many thousands of single-family
11:13:14 owner occupied residents.
11:13:15 But when we talk about affordable housing, what we are
11:13:18 talking about is bringing housing either rental or home
11:13:22 ownership to people that are making a percentage of our
11:13:25 area median income, or area median income southbound
11:13:29 about 55,000.
11:13:31 The multifamily rental units are mostly going to
11:13:34 residents making in the mid 30s.
11:13:38 Home ownership is really targeted at people making
11:13:42 below 40,000.
11:13:43 That's our target group, that affordable housing seeks
11:13:46 to help.
11:13:46 And I would look forward to serving the city, if

11:13:50 council should appoint me, and I'm ready to answer any
11:13:52 questions.
11:13:53 Thank you.
11:13:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I ask a question?
11:13:57 Thank you.
11:14:00 David, you obviously have decades of experience in
11:14:05 affordable housing.
11:14:07 You are still involved in some of those efforts?
11:14:11 >>> I am.
11:14:11 Right now I'm involved in an attempt to bring some
11:14:14 workforce housing down in the Collier County area, been
11:14:18 working with a group trying to bring some housing.
11:14:21 A commitment from Florida housing for workforce housing
11:14:25 grant, but we are still working on trying to get all of
11:14:28 that financing.
11:14:29 >> My only concern would be any conflict of interest?
11:14:31 I am sure you have looked at that as an attorney.
11:14:34 >>> It's conceivable.
11:14:35 I mean, I prosecute practice with a large law firm.
11:14:39 We represent people all over the country including here
11:14:41 in Florida.
11:14:45 From time to time, we probably do represent people, but

11:14:46 I don't know of any current clients that are looking
11:14:49 for affordable housing assistance in the City of Tampa.
11:14:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you for putting your name up.
11:14:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
11:15:02 >>> Mr. Carpenter.
11:15:06 >>> Mr. Chairman, if I may, for members of council.
11:15:10 I also want to mention that we also submitted all
11:15:13 applications that have come in to Ms. Marcie Hamilton
11:15:18 to review for her determination as to whether there was
11:15:20 any conflict with the City of Tampa ethics code, and
11:15:23 she did determine that for the applicant which she has
11:15:26 reviewed in the applications there is no conflict.
11:15:30 Per local code.
11:15:37 >>MARY MULHERN: Because Anthony LaColla, the Planning
11:15:41 Commissioner, so he would fit in that category.
11:15:44 I'm wondering why he's not applying under the
11:15:46 planning --
11:15:48 >>> Mr. LaColla is a member of staff.
11:15:51 He's a member of staff.
11:15:53 It has to be a member of the commission.
11:15:55 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
11:16:02 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: The next person is Mr.

11:16:03 Carpenter, if he's here.
11:16:05 And also note that he's applied for the real estate
11:16:08 professional, also.
11:16:11 >>> My name is Ron Carpenter.
11:16:16 My address is 1501 Doyle Carlton drive, Tampa, Florida.
11:16:24 Before I get started on my background I wanted to talk
11:16:26 to you a little bit about my motivations.
11:16:29 I love America.
11:16:29 That being said, I am frustrated every day with what
11:16:32 goes on in politics, but nonetheless, I love America,
11:16:37 and part of the fundamentals for this country was built
11:16:39 on one of the main premises was property rights.
11:16:42 When you look at property rights, property rights
11:16:45 basically equal power.
11:16:47 And we can look at empires, cities, nation, all have
11:16:55 grown on vanished all based on property rights.
11:16:58 The United States when they first started they went
11:17:00 through a great deal of time and effort to establish
11:17:02 these property rights and to disburse the property to
11:17:06 the public, the masses.
11:17:08 We have done a great job in this country of doing but
11:17:12 we can do a lot better.

11:17:13 There's still a vast contrast between the haves and the
11:17:16 have nots.
11:17:18 Remember your first home.
11:17:19 Remember the pride you had in it, remember the
11:17:22 empowerment that you received when you first bought the
11:17:25 home.
11:17:27 Housing is becoming more affordable every day but not
11:17:31 because of strategic planning, it's because of current
11:17:33 market conditions and this market correction that we
11:17:34 are seeing nationwide and especially here in Florida.
11:17:38 Many people, although the prices of homes have
11:17:41 decreased in value, they still can't get the financing,
11:17:43 they still don't have the money to achieve the American
11:17:46 dream of becoming a homeowner.
11:17:48 This leads me my background.
11:17:51 I have been in real estate now for 12 years.
11:17:53 I have a master's degree from the University of Florida
11:17:56 in real estate development.
11:17:58 I have worked for such companies as Tramel Pro,
11:18:02 National Home Builders, American Homes, as both the
11:18:05 vice present of land development, and also worked for a
11:18:09 regional home builder, here in this area, as

11:18:11 vice-president land acquisition and development.
11:18:13 A mentor of mine when I first got started in real
11:18:16 estate development 12 years ago told me to learn a
11:18:19 little bit about a lot, and that's what a real estate
11:18:22 developer does.
11:18:22 So I spent time in property management, leasing,
11:18:25 development, brokerage, engineering, land planning, a
11:18:31 variety array of spectrums, so to speak, in the
11:18:34 development category.
11:18:36 I think in order to achieve true affordable housing and
11:18:39 to add value to the advisory committee, I bring a
11:18:43 unique experience from the standpoint, I have done all
11:18:47 these things.
11:18:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, sir.
11:18:49 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, just to clarify, Mr.
11:18:54 Carpenter's application, there was a question regarding
11:18:57 the submission of financial disclosure form as we do
11:19:03 all.
11:19:03 I did have the opportunity to send that form to Mr.
11:19:06 Carpenter.
11:19:06 He has reviewed it and he understands and has in a
11:19:09 objection to filling out the financial disclosure in

11:19:11 his application.
11:19:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:19:16 Fox tocks
11:19:19 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: The next candidate is Mr.
11:19:22 Anthony LaColla, also for the central service category.
11:19:29 >>> Good morning.
11:19:31 Tony LaColla, 2002 east Fifth Avenue.
11:19:36 To give you a little bit of my background I am a
11:19:38 certified planner, work for the Planning Commission as
11:19:41 staff member, not a Planning Commissioner.
11:19:42 I'm also chair of the local section of the American
11:19:44 planning association, an organization of about 700
11:19:47 urban planners.
11:19:49 I'm also president of the historic Ybor historic
11:19:53 association.
11:19:53 So I am very involved in the community.
11:19:55 I'm a life-long resident of Tampa.
11:19:57 I live lived in East Tampa.
11:19:59 Now I live in Ybor City.
11:20:01 I'm very interested in what happens in the Ybor City
11:20:04 area having been there for quite awhile.
11:20:06 I am a young home buyer.

11:20:07 I understand the challenges that it takes for a young
11:20:09 person to purchase a home, especially someone who is a
11:20:13 government employee who doesn't have the highest income
11:20:15 in the world. we do have an overpriced market which is
11:20:21 coming down.
11:20:21 Throws a market correction happening.
11:20:23 And these adjustments are only temporary.
11:20:25 Housing values are going to go back up again and we
11:20:27 need to be prepared.
11:20:28 And I think now is the time to be proactive, and put a
11:20:32 plan in place before the market readjusts.
11:20:35 Demographics are also changing.
11:20:37 We have the population getting older.
11:20:39 We have a population that wants to live in urban
11:20:41 centers.
11:20:42 We need to focus on that demographic as well.
11:20:49 I think the City of Tampa can be a little more
11:20:51 innovative, go out on a limb on some of these
11:20:54 innovative housing programs around the country, take
11:20:56 what we know from other cities, maybe create our own
11:20:59 things in the City of Tampa.
11:21:00 I really think I can be a good asset to the committee.

11:21:04 Being a planner and being a life-long resident of
11:21:07 Tampa, I think there's a lot of great things that we
11:21:09 can do and improve the quality of life of our citizens.
11:21:13 Thank you.
11:21:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
11:21:19 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: Thank you.
11:21:19 The last candidate is miss LORENA Hendricks.
11:21:29 She also qualifies for the real estate professional.
11:21:34 I wanted to note that we are continuing to advertise
11:21:40 for the affordable housing advisory committee, and that
11:21:43 the deadline for submission is June 18th at 5 p.m
11:21:52 If you will complete your ballot.
11:22:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Shirley or Cindy, when we started
11:22:02 the process there were certain targeted categories and
11:22:05 the memo that I got earlier, I think last week, said we
11:22:08 didn't hear from realtors, anybody in the realtors
11:22:11 group.
11:22:11 And so our office took the liberty and contacted the
11:22:15 realtors association, and it appears they didn't even
11:22:18 know about it.
11:22:19 So I don't know if that's correct or what.
11:22:23 And this goes to either one of you.

11:22:25 I don't know who is running this one.
11:22:31 >>CINDY MILLER: In this case, this was posted.
11:22:32 I did not make direct contact with any particular
11:22:35 association.
11:22:36 It was an open call, let's say, that was advertised on
11:22:39 the web site.
11:22:39 We had presented it at least two City Council meetings
11:22:44 so I do know not if they W are on our standard
11:22:47 circulation list.
11:22:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think for future reference when we
11:22:51 have specific target groups like real hors, we should
11:22:54 get in touch about the realtors association, when we
11:22:56 have Planning Commission -- they didn't know anything
11:23:00 about it.
11:23:01 >> We did take the liberty when we did not have an
11:23:04 applicant for the planning agency rep, we did do that.
11:23:06 However, Mr. Dingfelder, and the chairman, I did guide
11:23:12 the council appointments.
11:23:13 So from that standpoint, otherwise would you either
11:23:19 seek us to make that solicitation.
11:23:20 But let me just clarify one other point.
11:23:22 I did talk with Mr. LaColla.

11:23:25 He went back to his seat and he does not qualify as
11:23:27 essential service personnel.
11:23:28 So before applicants for residents and we do have two
11:23:35 for professional that we have to determine whether they
11:23:38 fit from the standpoint of affordable housing at this
11:23:42 point or as to whether you feel these applicants, it's
11:23:45 appropriate, because solicitation that they only need
11:23:50 to be real estate professional without the affordable
11:23:52 housing component.
11:23:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Chair, just for a point of
11:23:57 order.
11:23:58 Therefore, our ballot on service personnel category
11:24:01 takes us down to one candidate that sort of sounds like
11:24:07 Michigan.
11:24:08 But, anyway, I don't know, it just seems if we are
11:24:13 going to continue three of these categories maybe we
11:24:16 should continue the essential service category until we
11:24:19 have had more response to our process and I don't know
11:24:25 Mr. Moore at all.
11:24:26 He's not here today.
11:24:27 >>CINDY MILLER: When it comes to the essential service
11:24:30 personnel, I do not have information from Mr. Ward one

11:24:33 direction or the other whether he qualifies, so my
11:24:36 recommendation for council is that you may point the
11:24:38 resident category if you so desire today.
11:24:43 You could look at whether the real estate professional
11:24:45 application meets the criteria from your standpoint
11:24:49 either including affordable housing or believe that now
11:24:52 we have reached a point where we would just appoint a
11:24:56 real estate professional without the affordable housing
11:24:58 component.
11:24:59 We are continuing to advertise for the other positions.
11:25:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me respond to councilman
11:25:05 Dingfelder.
11:25:06 I would suggest that we move forward, in that the
11:25:09 persons have gone through, it's not their fault, that
11:25:14 at the last minute Tony cannot qualify.
11:25:17 But I do know Mr. Lord and one of the things I try to
11:25:21 do when I vote is look at a balance.
11:25:28 And make sure that I try to make sure there's diversity
11:25:38 on the committee and Mr. Lord is the only
11:25:42 African-American applicant and I look at whether they
11:25:46 are Hispanic, Latino, and that we have diversity.
11:25:49 So I look at that and I think that's very important.

11:25:51 I know Mr. Lord.
11:25:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And if I could respond.
11:25:55 I think it's important that you spoke to that,
11:25:57 Mr. Chairman, because, I mean, I might know him by
11:26:00 sight but don't know him by name.
11:26:02 So if you are willing to vouch for him then I am not
11:26:04 uncomfortable with going ahead with that category.
11:26:07 But I just wanted to express my concern about, you
11:26:09 know, single candidate ballot.
11:26:17 >>MARY MULHERN: I have a problem because we got all
11:26:19 this information after people marked their ballots.
11:26:22 So I don't know.
11:26:28 If everyone is comfortable with that you are vote but
11:26:30 it seems like --
11:26:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So does Mr. LaColla qualify for any
11:26:49 other areas?
11:26:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: He's number four on the list.
11:26:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: While the clerk is dealing with those,
11:27:25 item number 61, vacancy on the enterprise zone.
11:27:38 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: City clerk.
11:27:41 We have two candidates for the enterprise zone
11:27:44 development agency.

11:27:46 They are Kitty Lequita Armstrong and Evangeline --
11:27:58 >> How do we advertise for these opportunities to
11:28:01 serve?
11:28:01 >> We have a list of areas on there.
11:28:05 I believe.
11:28:27 For the enterprise zone, we advertise on the bulletin
11:28:32 board on the first floor of old City Hall, and
11:28:36 announcements and the agenda, the community bulletin
11:28:38 board on CTTV, advertisements with the ARA Tampa Bay
11:28:45 chapter, urban charrette group, international society,
11:28:55 Mr. Johnson, who is the president of T.H.A.N., and
11:29:04 other boards.
11:29:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me ask the question.
11:29:07 Do you follow the same process each time you have these
11:29:10 appointments?
11:29:11 >>> Yes.
11:29:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would suggest that you forward to Ms.
11:29:14 Saul-Sena a list of the process so we won't address
11:29:18 this each time.
11:29:19 I know this question keeps coming up every time so wee
11:29:23 if you will forward to each council member what the
11:29:26 process is.

11:29:27 >>> Yes, and we did.
11:29:28 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:29:30 We did send that information in a memo to you and to
11:29:36 council members.
11:29:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:29:38 We will hear now from the other two applicants while
11:29:40 you are tallying the votes on the other ones.
11:29:42 Okay?
11:29:43 >> I'm Lequita Armstrong, Tampa, Florida 33604.
11:29:57 And I'm here today because I want help economic growth
11:30:02 and investment in distressed areas.
11:30:03 I want to be a part of helping my community,
11:30:05 establishing the infrastructure necessary to establish
11:30:08 a strong local economy.
11:30:09 I currently live less than half a mile west and three
11:30:13 quarters of a mile south of two local areas of
11:30:16 enterprise as enterprise zones.
11:30:18 While I don't live in these areas these they are my
11:30:23 immediate community and my neighborhood.
11:30:25 I have a heart set passion for the economic success for
11:30:28 all areas of the City of Tampa, and for the overall
11:30:30 well-being of my fellow citizens.

11:30:34 Having worked in a supply and district area for over 15
11:30:37 years, while serving in the military I had a chance to
11:30:41 see firsthand how a business within a community can
11:30:44 serve as motivation to build an economic success in
11:30:47 that area.
11:30:50 In setting up screens and establishing contracts with
11:30:53 the local vendors and returning back there on an annual
11:30:56 basis to see what growth has fostered from the
11:31:00 businesses that we started very passionate for myself
11:31:03 and I would like to be part of a like process here in
11:31:06 the City of Tampa to allow as many citizens that are
11:31:09 willing to be able to contribute and making Tampa
11:31:12 great.
11:31:13 Thank you for your consideration.
11:31:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:31:18 Next speaker.
11:31:20 >>> Good morning. Evangeline Best.
11:31:28 3416 East Fern, and live four blocks away from the East
11:31:36 Tampa area.
11:31:37 But I am here as chairman of the East Tampa community
11:31:40 partnership, and I really feel in the seven months that
11:31:47 I have been chairman I have learned a lot, and I think

11:31:51 along the enterprise zone advisory committee that is
11:31:55 going to enhance me more to take back to my community
11:31:59 but more than anything else, some collaboration that
11:32:02 when things come to the table, I will be able to be
11:32:05 able to take things back.
11:32:13 I have lived in the East Tampa area.
11:32:16 I currently do full-time volunteer work in the East
11:32:19 Tampa area.
11:32:22 And one of the reasons again that I kind of want to be
11:32:26 involved with this, I want to help East Tampa move to
11:32:29 another level and find out what's going on maybe in
11:32:32 some of the other CRAs, and in that capacity even
11:32:39 take it back to the community.
11:32:40 Thank you.
11:32:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just wanted to make sure we don't
11:32:49 have a problem with somebody serving on two very
11:32:51 different boards, because I don't know if you all
11:32:53 remember, there was somebody on one board and they
11:32:56 wanted to serve on the Planning Commission and we said
11:32:58 you had to choose between them, that you couldn't do
11:33:00 both.
11:33:00 I just wanted to make sure that that's okay.

11:33:03 I guess that's a question for legal.
11:33:08 >>> I'm sorry, can you can clarify, which board?
11:33:13 >> Well, the president of the East Tampa CRA board,
11:33:21 partnership.
11:33:24 She would like to serve on the enterprise zone board
11:33:28 which is very different but I wanted to make sure we
11:33:30 didn't have any rules that preclude somebody from
11:33:33 serving on two different civic boards for the city.
11:33:38 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, the short answer is, I don't
11:33:45 believe there would be a problem.
11:33:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I don't think it would either
11:33:49 because one is kind of a neighborhood board.
11:33:51 I just wanted to make sure.
11:33:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And the way statutorily the way the
11:33:55 board is created it requires somebody for instance to
11:33:57 have a planning agency commission member to serve on
11:34:01 the board.
11:34:02 So I would assume that you made a very good question
11:34:08 but I don't think it would be a problem.
11:34:10 I believe Marcie Hamilton has reviewed it.
11:34:13 But just to be on the safe side, between now and the
11:34:16 time -- did you want to add something?

11:34:20 >>THE CLERK: I had discussed it with Sal Territo on
11:34:23 Tuesday on the enterprise zone, and he did not feel it
11:34:27 was a dual office holding.
11:34:29 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That's the short answer.
11:34:30 Thank you.
11:34:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Cast your ballot.
11:34:34 And then the results on the other one?
11:34:37 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: City clerk.
11:34:43 The person receiving the most votes for the resident is
11:34:47 Mr. Anthony LaColla.
11:34:50 I don't know if you want to move ahead with the central
11:34:53 service personnel but the person receiving the most
11:34:55 votes is Mr. Herold Lord.
11:34:59 And for the real estate professional was Mr. Ron
11:35:04 Carpenter.
11:35:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
11:35:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I would ask that the City
11:35:14 Council pass a motion ratifying and affirming that
11:35:18 decision and directing that resolutions be prepared.
11:35:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
11:35:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Formalizing it effective today.
11:35:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is there a second?

11:35:28 >> Second.
11:35:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved by councilwoman Saul-Sena,
11:35:30 seconded by councilman Miranda.
11:35:33 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
11:35:35 Opposed same thing.
11:35:36 Okay.
11:35:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The clerk will give us the total on
11:35:55 that.
11:35:56 62, Jan McLean.
11:36:02 >> We have one more vote coming up.
11:36:19 >>> I'm here on item number 62, quarterly update on two
11:36:25 items that you have directed me to monitor on your
11:36:28 behalf.
11:36:29 The first one that I will address is the proposed
11:36:32 landfill that we know as indoor aggregate proposed for
11:36:38 construction, application in Pasco County.
11:36:40 Since we last had an update, I communicated with Pasco
11:36:45 County staff and following actions or inaction that is
11:36:50 occurred since our update, Pasco County is reviewing
11:36:53 the mining permit, demolition, I believe disposal
11:36:59 facility and sanitary landfill application.
11:37:02 They are also reviewing the application for conditional

11:37:04 use, change to their zoning regs.
11:37:10 Pasco has comments requesting to update their
11:37:13 application for the special use so that it coincides or
11:37:16 patches what was submitted to the FDEP.
11:37:19 The applicant has asked the county to withhold any
11:37:24 action on that special use until they get further
11:37:28 direction from the FDEP.
11:37:32 The comment also included that the applicant needed to
11:37:36 submit a traffic impact study to the county for their
11:37:39 review, and that there is no public hearing for
11:37:43 meetings scheduled or anticipated at least within the
11:37:47 first quarter before I appear before you again.
11:37:49 With regard to the FDEP application, the applicant
11:37:55 submitted additional information that had been sent
11:37:57 from the department and the department has until the
11:38:00 end of June to respond to that additional information.
11:38:04 Beyond that, there hasn't been any other actions,
11:38:13 public meeting or hearing.
11:38:17 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to thank you for this
11:38:23 update, because their decisions will directly impact us
11:38:27 because we in the city depend on the Hillsborough River
11:38:30 for our drinking water, and therefore any location of a

11:38:35 waste disposal facility next to the Hillsborough River
11:38:38 really concerns us.
11:38:39 I appreciate your monitoring it and keeping us updated,
11:38:42 and if something comes up prior to the quarterly report
11:38:45 that you feel that we should weigh in on, please take
11:38:48 the initiative, please, please, to come to council and
11:38:51 bring it to us so that we can share our concerns with
11:38:54 our neighbor county.
11:38:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You mentioned a D.E.P. application
11:39:02 that's pending?
11:39:05 >>> Yes.
11:39:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Did we comment on that particular
11:39:10 application?
11:39:13 Were there any comments?
11:39:14 >>> We have submitted a request to receive notices.
11:39:18 I have intermittently reviewed the application file
11:39:22 which is enormous as it goes through.
11:39:25 It's actually application for construction and then one
11:39:27 for operation.
11:39:28 So there's two that are going through together.
11:39:30 >> Is there an opportunity to file objections as an
11:39:34 adjacent jurisdiction?

11:39:35 >>> There would be a point of entry once the department
11:39:38 comes to the point that it issues -- whether it issues
11:39:43 a notice of denial, or approval, so then you would have
11:39:47 a point of entry to enter into the actions.
11:39:52 >> So you will make sure that you make us aware of that
11:39:55 time period?
11:39:55 >>> Yes, sir.
11:39:56 And that would be one of the things that I might need
11:39:58 to come back before you, before the quarterly update,
11:40:01 because you generally only have a very short period of
11:40:03 time and I would want to get your approval if I needed
11:40:06 to move forward on any kind of legal action.
11:40:08 >> You mentioned that you don't have -- anything that's
11:40:11 going to happen in the next three-month cycle because
11:40:13 everything is just sort of chug ago long?
11:40:15 >>> Right.
11:40:16 It's anticipated the D.E.P. won't take any action
11:40:18 before the end of this year.
11:40:20 But that's the way it sits right now, when I talked to
11:40:27 the Pasco staff and reviewing the files of the D.E.P.
11:40:30 >> From my perspective, and I make a motion to let you
11:40:34 off the hook for the next quarter, unless something

11:40:37 particular happens and then you can trek downstairs and
11:40:41 let us know on your own volition.
11:40:43 Otherwise I don't see a reason if nothing is going to
11:40:47 happen.
11:40:47 So why don't you come back in six months?
11:40:49 That would be my motion.
11:40:52 >> Second.
11:40:52 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:40:54 (Motion carried).
11:40:55 >>JAN MCLEAN: Also there was a second motion that was
11:41:00 taken the last time I was here which was to bring
11:41:02 before you some information at that time on the
11:41:04 proposed transmission lines that Progress Energy was
11:41:08 indicating that it was going to expand, that may cross
11:41:15 the jurisdiction of the New Tampa area.
11:41:17 They have been very communicative with us.
11:41:19 I met with one of the representatives that gave me the
11:41:22 information, although I'm sure a lot of you have
11:41:24 already kept yourselves well aware.
11:41:25 At this point in time, and in a quite timely fashion,
11:41:30 Progress Energy has determined that 28, in the proposed
11:41:34 transmission lines, will stay within its current

11:41:37 easement except for a few years where it's going to
11:41:40 have to expand but within our very small areas for
11:41:43 ingress and egress primarily is what I am led to
11:41:46 believe.
11:41:47 But within our area, and New Tampa where it crosses
11:41:50 Tampa Palms, it will stay within this easement that is
11:41:54 already currently there.
11:41:56 They are going from a 115 KV do increase to 230 KV line
11:42:02 and they are changing the poles within their easement.
11:42:07 I have a picture.
11:42:16 This pole will be taking less space in the ground so
11:42:31 they will be changing out.
11:42:32 There was some concern about them being upwards of a
11:42:35 mile wide.
11:42:35 Now they determined that they are going to stay within
11:42:37 the current easement except for a few areas.
11:42:41 As I said, it only impacts within the city's
11:42:44 jurisdiction within Tampa Palms.
11:42:52 It's very hard to see.
11:42:55 So this green line is what they have identified.
11:43:12 You might not be able to see it, but there's a yellow
11:43:18 hashmark that identifies that it's the current and then

11:43:20 the green that is the proposed quarter so they are
11:43:23 staying within that as they go across the city's
11:43:26 jurisdiction.
11:43:28 One last thing I wanted to share with you.
11:43:32 Just to give you an idea, and your question, Mr.
11:43:38 Dingfelder, this is the pylon they are working with,
11:43:47 and right now they are within the planning period.
11:43:54 As I spoke with the representative, they have an
11:43:56 18-month siting certification applying to the different
11:43:59 agencies.
11:44:00 So they will be working on that next, if that happens,
11:44:05 if they get the approval, then they would move forward
11:44:08 on these other actions.
11:44:09 But that's all predicated on them receiving a positive
11:44:13 approvals from the agencies that they are applying for.
11:44:17 And also held 13 public meetings in the months of
11:44:20 February and March, and the next round, to update the
11:44:27 public on where they are would be in the fall of '08.
11:44:32 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mrs. McLean, in the Tampa Palms
11:44:37 area there are eight -- are they going to add another
11:44:41 one, and that one is going to stay there, or they are
11:44:44 going to replace hem?

11:44:45 >>> It's my understanding they are going to replace
11:44:47 them, take the H's out and go to the monopoles.
11:44:51 So the larger poles actually will be removed.
11:44:54 My understanding.
11:44:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Since we can't speak outside of this
11:45:02 body, in the day when I used to be over in the county
11:45:07 attorney's office I was involved in this issue about 15
11:45:11 years ago, I guess, and this was the same project.
11:45:15 They just kind of docketed it off and are doing again.
11:45:20 In the north part of the county off of Dale Mabry they
11:45:23 were very upset about it and there were some folks in
11:45:25 the Tampa Palms area who were concerned about them
11:45:28 increasing the voltage from 115,000 volts to 230,000
11:45:33 volts.
11:45:36 In their back yards. Anyway, I guess I'm curious.
11:45:39 I haven't been receiving many or any calls from Tampa
11:45:42 Palms.
11:45:43 Has your office?
11:45:45 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: No, I have not.
11:45:46 People who live there know it's there.
11:45:48 They have two poles now.
11:45:50 They are going to end up with one.

11:45:52 Maybe they are happy.
11:45:53 But you are going to have more current going through
11:45:55 it.
11:45:56 >> Aesthetically I think it is an improvement.
11:45:58 I think there is a concern about the greater current
11:46:01 and some folks are concerned about the electromagnetic
11:46:04 fields that are associated with those higher currents.
11:46:06 But anyway, just keep your eyes open and your ears
11:46:09 open.
11:46:09 >> Electromagnetic fields like a blanket on your bed
11:46:15 that's electric.
11:46:16 >> That's probably arguable but we don't need to argue
11:46:18 it today.
11:46:18 >>> The representative that I spoke with indicated that
11:46:23 if council did want somebody to come and make a
11:46:25 presentation, answer questions, in more detail, than
11:46:28 what I am presenting to you here, that they would be
11:46:30 more than happy to do so.
11:46:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:46:40 Ms. Shirley Foxx-Knowles.
11:46:49 >> You really have the opportunity to select both
11:46:51 candidates.

11:46:52 We have two vacancies.
11:46:53 Due to the resignation of Mr. Myron Hughes and Thomas
11:46:59 Keating.
11:47:00 So if you want both of them, you can have both of them.
11:47:05 Both candidates, Kitty Armstrong and Evangeline Best.
11:47:11 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I move that we accept both of
11:47:14 them.
11:47:18 There's no sense in prolonging this any longer.
11:47:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Miranda, could you also include in
11:47:25 your motion asking that the resolution be prepared?
11:47:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's all in the same motion.
11:47:29 >> Second.
11:47:30 (Motion carried).
11:47:30 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: Thank you.
11:47:37 >>GWEN MILLER: We go to item number 66.
11:47:45 Steve Daignault.
11:47:46 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: I am going to give you a quarterly
11:47:50 update on where we are with the reclaimed process.
11:47:52 We are actually moving out pretty aggressively, more
11:47:54 aggressively than we have before on the reclaimed
11:47:57 process.
11:47:59 Again just covering lots of areas, in the star one

11:48:03 area, for example, a year ago in 2007, in May, we had
11:48:08 1,705 people connected.
11:48:12 This May, May of 2008 we had 2,969.
11:48:16 So an increase of 1200, almost a 50% increase.
11:48:28 We are putting together a reclaimed master plan or
11:48:30 request for that, we are using a consultant, will go
11:48:33 out with them coming to council for approval of that.
11:48:35 We would like to look at how we could best use our
11:48:39 reclaimed water throughout the city, kind of put in a
11:48:41 priority order based on again you people's usage of
11:48:46 water for irrigation and other large users, again, so
11:48:51 ask for a plan on how to develop and use that water.
11:48:54 As you know, our goal continues to be to offset the use
11:48:58 of potable, whenever possible.
11:49:00 That's our primary goal.
11:49:02 Also, we are going to be bringing back to you a small
11:49:07 consultant contract there's a lost demands are for
11:49:19 reclaimed so we want to look at what the value of that
11:49:22 water would be.
11:49:23 With regard to the big users, at TIA we recently got a
11:49:30 graft agreement.
11:49:31 We think we will be moving quickly with them.

11:49:33 We will be coming back to council probably within the
11:49:36 next two or three months.
11:49:37 They would like to take it to their August board
11:49:40 meeting.
11:49:40 Again I think we are going to be resolving and coming
11:49:42 to an agreement with use out of TIA very quickly.
11:49:45 We continue to meet with the TECO folks for TECO
11:49:48 Bayside.
11:49:49 Again as now the WPI issues are going on, and so that's
11:49:59 slowing that down a little bit.
11:50:00 As far as city initiatives, just now they are reviewing
11:50:03 a basis of design and then we will be going forward
11:50:06 with design for putting reclaimed along the Bayshore
11:50:08 that will help us get out of using reclaimed water --
11:50:11 excuse me, potable water for you are delegation there.
11:50:13 Also allow us to develop and be more mature with
11:50:17 vegetation along Bayshore, and perhaps be able to
11:50:21 provide some reclaimed for the citizens along there as
11:50:24 well.
11:50:27 Also, Curtis Hicks on and Kiley Gardens, we want to get
11:50:31 reclaimed there by the time the park is complete.
11:50:33 We may have to have some of it a temporary connection.

11:50:37 Again we want to have reclaimed there for when that
11:50:40 park comes into being, and the same can Kiley, when we
11:50:43 get Kiley rejuvenated.
11:50:46 So again, we will see whether or not we can make that
11:50:49 date. If not we may have some temporary connection.
11:50:51 But we will then follow up with a more permanent
11:50:53 connection for reclaimed over that area.
11:50:58 And again, as I mentioned, the WPI, we continue to stay
11:51:01 engaged with that.
11:51:02 David Smith, Sandra Anderson, myself, and so we'll
11:51:09 continue to watch that and report back to you on that.
11:51:13 Other than that, again, for questions, I want to thank
11:51:16 you all for all your support as we move forward with
11:51:19 all these projects, and we have a number of them coming
11:51:22 down the pike.
11:51:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman hull Mulhern and
11:51:26 councilwoman Saul-Sena.
11:51:27 >>MARY MULHERN: I was surprised and happy to hear that
11:51:30 the mayor has decided to do this.
11:51:34 What are you calling it, a master plan for reclaimed
11:51:36 water?
11:51:37 >>> Correct.

11:51:38 >>MARY MULHERN: But right after we signed that
11:51:40 memorandum of understanding with calling it WPI.
11:51:45 So I'm curious if we are going to go ahead with the
11:51:53 master plan for us at the same time that we are
11:51:59 negotiating to sell all that water outside of the city.
11:52:01 How is that going to work?
11:52:03 Where is the water going to come from, for all of this
11:52:06 work?
11:52:07 >>> Well, the MOU, as you recall, does not agree to
11:52:10 sell any water.
11:52:11 It agreed that we would work together to try to make
11:52:13 this project viable.
11:52:17 We have actually not been asked yet to tell them how
11:52:21 much water is available or when.
11:52:24 And when becomes an important factor.
11:52:26 If there is what a pipeline today, we could provide a
11:52:29 lot of water because we don't have other uses.
11:52:31 But part of their planning looks five years into the
11:52:35 future, and then ten years.
11:52:40 That's why it's incumbent upon to us do a master plan
11:52:44 for our reclaimed just to see how much is available
11:52:46 when, because today, as I said, there's a lot more

11:52:50 water available than there may northbound five years or
11:52:52 ten years.
11:52:53 So that's kind of why those two sort of go together.
11:52:57 >> But we heard about master plan after we signed the
11:53:01 MOU.
11:53:02 How is that?
11:53:03 Has that been in the works for awhile?
11:53:05 Or was it --
11:53:06 >>> I am going to have to say it's a more recent
11:53:09 development.
11:53:09 Again, as we are looking at big users and what could be
11:53:14 done and the value of that water, you are trying to
11:53:16 determine answers on those types of questions.
11:53:20 It made sense to us that we should move out with a
11:53:23 master plan.
11:53:23 >>MARY MULHERN: So will the master plan be completed
11:53:28 before there's any type of agreement considered?
11:53:37 For all the water outside the city?
11:53:39 >>> The master plan, we think, will take six to nine
11:53:42 months.
11:53:46 Again, my understanding at this point, the phase one
11:53:49 part of the WPI project includes water from the county

11:53:53 and a pipeline from the county plant down to the TECO
11:53:58 plant.
11:53:58 So cities, I mean, we are at least five years out
11:54:02 before the city water comes into play.
11:54:06 So I think to answer your question, I believe the
11:54:08 master plan will be completed.
11:54:09 We'll have the benefit of that information before any
11:54:15 water starts flowing.
11:54:16 Now again we may need to start talking to them, since
11:54:20 they want commitments.
11:54:22 But we really need to know what our water plans are in
11:54:26 order to make long-term commitments.
11:54:27 >> Right.
11:54:28 But that's my question.
11:54:29 Because I think that the citizens want a commitment on
11:54:33 getting the reclaimed water in the city before it goes
11:54:36 outside.
11:54:37 >>> Understand.
11:54:39 Again, we will have that plan down in six to nine
11:54:43 months after it's begun.
11:54:46 >> And when will it begin?
11:54:49 >>> I am hoping to get to the you in the next 60 days.

11:54:53 >>MARY MULHERN: Thanks.
11:54:58 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Saul-Sena, Miranda, Caetano.
11:55:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you so much for sharing this
11:55:04 with us.
11:55:05 It's absolutely critical that we develop a plan.
11:55:08 My question is, are we assuming that our highest
11:55:15 priority and goal be that we use -- that we make our
11:55:19 reclaimed water available to Tampa residents for their
11:55:22 own needs?
11:55:23 Because if you need a policy direction from council, I
11:55:26 think that's what we would -- that's what we value
11:55:29 most, is using our reclaimed water for our citizens
11:55:33 here.
11:55:34 And I know the reason you are going to look at the
11:55:36 value of it is as a potential information for a
11:55:40 negotiation.
11:55:41 But I don't want a current dollar value to confuse us
11:55:48 in terms of making something that looks like it might
11:55:50 be a good economic decision for us rather than looking
11:55:54 at the true value of water as a commodity which will
11:55:58 allow our city to grow.
11:56:00 I think that, you know, water will be the next oil, and

11:56:04 we are cognizant of those, and I really want to
11:56:10 compliment council member Mulhern for saying, wait,
11:56:14 let's put on the brakes, take a look at it.
11:56:16 It is such a critical issue.
11:56:18 And I think some people to doing the plan should do it
11:56:21 as quickly as possible.
11:56:22 Thanks.
11:56:23 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Daignault, there was an
11:56:25 article in the paper about a possible treatment plant
11:56:28 up in north Tampa for reclaimed water.
11:56:30 Where does that stand?
11:56:33 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: As part of this master plan --
11:56:36 again, as Mrs. Saul-Sena was saying, our goal is to
11:56:41 fully utilize our reclaimed water first for us, if we
11:56:44 can, if we absolutely can.
11:56:46 And again, in that regard, over time, there might be a
11:56:50 different amount of water, like today there's a lot
11:56:53 five years from today, there may not be so much,
11:56:56 because we have been able to find customers and offset
11:57:00 the use of potable within the City of Tampa.
11:57:03 One of the things that we want to do with this master
11:57:06 plan is open up the doors, and there's all kinds of

11:57:10 concepts for water use, reclaimed water use that has
11:57:14 been thought of in the past, are being rethought of in
11:57:18 the nation right now.
11:57:19 So we want to keep the doors wide open, and let this
11:57:24 consultant look at all of the what-ifs.
11:57:26 That certainly is one of the what-ifs.
11:57:29 If we did that, would it be to our advantage, or is
11:57:33 something else better for us?
11:57:35 So we want to look at all the possibilities.
11:57:37 >> The costs of bringing that water up there now I
11:57:40 understand is about 13 miles, so that's 13 miles of
11:57:42 roadway you have to dig up and put pipes in.
11:57:45 So it's probably going to be cheaper to put a plant out
11:57:48 there and use the reclaimed water that comes out of
11:57:53 that plant.
11:57:54 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Certainly.
11:57:56 And the things that our consultant has to look at is,
11:58:01 would we ever get enough, you know, reclaimed from a
11:58:05 plant just servicing that part of our service area to
11:58:10 provide total reclaimed, you know, service throughout
11:58:13 that area?
11:58:14 So that's something we have to look at.

11:58:16 Or would a pipe do that better?
11:58:18 Again, we want to keep the doors open and the
11:58:20 possibilities open to everything while they do that
11:58:23 evaluation for us.
11:58:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We mentioned various thirst first,
11:58:34 the memorandum of understanding.
11:58:35 I don't know if that's ever accepted.
11:58:38 Has that been accepted?
11:58:39 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: My understanding is that we are
11:58:41 still waiting for TECO, and mop sake.
11:58:44 It's my belief and understanding.
11:58:48 >>JAN MCLEAN: We have not received the signature pages
11:58:50 from TECO and mosaic.
11:58:52 They were supplied to the county, and the county has
11:58:56 approved it and filed their copy.
11:58:58 We are still waiting for the signature page.
11:59:01 >> Let me just speak for a moment.
11:59:03 You know, if you had a car lot and you had one car, and
11:59:06 a thousand customers, you would be in the driver's seat
11:59:10 selling the car.
11:59:11 But if you had a thousand cars and one customer, you
11:59:16 are at a great disadvantage.

11:59:17 That's what happened to the city.
11:59:19 That's where they tried to put us in a box.
11:59:23 I admire the administration and Mr. Daignault for going
11:59:25 forward and creating the plan that has been talked
11:59:27 about for some time.
11:59:29 Although there wasn't a plan on paper, there was a plan
11:59:33 that had been discussed for years.
11:59:36 Let me also say that I'm very much disturbed at one of
11:59:41 those parties by saying that the City of Tampa is
11:59:43 trying to drag their feet six to nine months and they
11:59:46 don't want to wait, this, that and the other because
11:59:49 millions and millions of dollars will be made.
11:59:51 One of the agencies was told that either give me the
11:59:54 money or somebody is out of a job.
11:59:57 Not directly like that but that's how it came about.
12:00:00 I don't like the hard politics, but I can tell you
12:00:04 this.
12:00:05 The other part of the money to pay for the land, guess
12:00:08 where it was coming from.
12:00:09 From the sweat and good working citizens of the City of
12:00:12 Tampa.
12:00:13 They give half the money.

12:00:15 Then they sell the water and have the money to put the
12:00:17 pipeline in.
12:00:18 That's what I'm assuming was going to happen.
12:00:21 And I don't want to discuss it too much because there
12:00:24 might be litigation for years to come.
12:00:25 I can tell you that it's disappointing to see how
12:00:31 people act, in the act of making money, under the
12:00:35 auspices of 501(c)3 and I'm disappointed in the way
12:00:39 this is being handled by certain individuals, and I am
12:00:43 not going to name them all.
12:00:44 But I'm concerned what's going on. This city is trying
12:00:49 to do the best it can with the citizens but I want to
12:00:52 also tell you that the takes five houses to produce
12:00:54 reclaimed water for one.
12:00:57 So I'm not going to get reclaimed.
12:01:01 I doubt that Mr. Dingfelder is going to get reclaimed.
12:01:04 It's not that we are trying to take us a way from
12:01:06 reclaimed.
12:01:07 Logic is rightly so the highest water users are the one
12:01:11 that is need it so the rest us can have water.
12:01:15 There's no need for me to have reclaimed water when my
12:01:17 bill is five dollars a month.

12:01:19 It would be ludicrous.
12:01:21 Somebody else would be paying for the pipeline that's
12:01:24 not being used.
12:01:25 In my case.
12:01:26 And certainly Mr. Dingfelder's case.
12:01:28 So what I'm saying is, I want to be right up forward
12:01:32 saying a lost us are not going to get reclaimed.
12:01:35 Watt water. A lot of people in New Tampa are not going
12:01:37 to get reclaimed water even if they had a plant in
12:01:40 their backyard, unless we treat other waters from the
12:01:42 surrounding areas in New Tampa.
12:01:44 That's what I think you are trying to get to.
12:01:46 So upfront unless we gets a big grant from the U.S.
12:01:50 government to do the pipeline, and maybe built an
12:01:56 auxiliary treatment plant it's not going to work
12:01:58 because I am not going to tell 80% of somebody in New
12:02:00 Tampa who has a high water bill, you are neighbor is
12:02:04 getting it but you are four fifths of not getting it.
12:02:10 I know I'm kind of hard and straightforward.
12:02:12 So what I'm saying it takes a lot of planning.
12:02:18 I concur that the best way is to get the individuals to
12:02:21 see what the real cost is.

12:02:22 What is the real cost of reclaimed water?
12:02:25 If it's going to replace an asset of a certain value
12:02:29 then that cost is equal almost to that asset.
12:02:32 Because what's going to happen?
12:02:35 We are going to be stymied.
12:02:38 Somebody else will use the water that you produce.
12:02:40 For what reason?
12:02:43 It's real big time politics, is what it is.
12:02:45 And it not politics in the City of Tampa.
12:02:48 It's politics that want to come in and raid the city on
12:02:55 doing the right thing.
12:02:56 No, sir the things we have to look at.
12:02:58 I admire what you are trying to do.
12:03:00 I admire what the administration, the mayor tried to do
12:03:02 it. It's a very difficult position they put us on.
12:03:05 But now what?
12:03:06 I'm glad it happened.
12:03:07 It started a new direction.
12:03:12 Not that it wasn't planned.
12:03:14 It was.
12:03:15 But a new direction.
12:03:17 You are not going to get this done for flee.

12:03:18 I'll tell you that right now.
12:03:20 It's going to take effort, leadership, courage, it's
12:03:23 going to take money.
12:03:23 And at the end, the winners are the citizens of the
12:03:27 City of Tampa because we'll have something in place
12:03:29 that will be the envy.
12:03:31 Yes, it's in place in other areas but it was mainly by
12:03:34 other government, not the citizens who are benefiting
12:03:37 from it.
12:03:38 This will be needed and it will be expensewise
12:03:41 required.
12:03:42 We are trying to work out a formula where the
12:03:44 individuals who may not have the money to come forward
12:03:47 will get a reduction in rate to be equal to -- or above
12:03:52 rate, I should say, above rate until they make the
12:03:56 qualifying amount of money it will take to hook up.
12:03:58 So all those things are being worked on by others in
12:04:08 the city.
12:04:08 I'm sorry for taking so much time, Mr. Chairman.
12:04:11 >>MARY MULHERN: One sentence?
12:04:15 >> I'm sorry, he was next.
12:04:20 He's right.

12:04:21 He's right.
12:04:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12:04:24 Three quick questions, Steve.
12:04:26 The sewage from New Tampa, does it come all the way
12:04:29 down here?
12:04:30 >>STEVE DAIGNAULT: Under the current plan, yes, sir.
12:04:32 >> It's hard for me to imagine it could ever be cost
12:04:35 effective to build a brand new plant up there when we
12:04:38 already have capacity down here but I'm sure your
12:04:41 consultants will look at that closely.
12:04:43 Number two, in your scope of work, for your consultant,
12:04:48 and you are going to bring us a contract in the next,
12:04:52 I'm sure, month or two for a consultant to do the
12:04:54 master plan.
12:04:55 And I want to ensure -- and we have talked about this
12:04:58 before with the prior consultant but I don't think it
12:05:00 ever happened but I want to ensure that this master
12:05:03 plan addresses this city's ability to maximize the
12:05:07 usage of the current program that we already have,
12:05:10 okay?
12:05:11 And I know we are doing better.
12:05:12 And I commend Brad and everybody else who has worked on

12:05:16 that, 2900 customers in a year.
12:05:19 We still have a long way to go.
12:05:21 We still have, I think, eight or ten thousand in homes
12:05:24 that could still hook up that aren't hooked up.
12:05:26 And so we need to figure out a way to do that and we
12:05:29 simply add a consultant on board.
12:05:31 We need recommendations from them to do that.
12:05:33 So I hope very strongly hope that when we see that
12:05:36 scope of work that it's included in the scope of work.
12:05:39 And then the third thing I would ask -- and David
12:05:42 Smith, are you here?
12:05:43 I saw awe minute ago.
12:05:44 Sorry, Steve.
12:05:45 I'm sure you are upset to get off the podium.
12:05:49 David, when the administration will work with the
12:05:53 consultant to draft a master plan, okay?
12:05:56 Will that master plan necessarily come to council for
12:05:58 approval?
12:06:01 I don't know if you had a chance to think about that.
12:06:03 But I think it's important that it does, because then
12:06:07 it's a public vetting, because, you know, and nothing
12:06:14 of the administration of course.

12:06:15 But then the public would have a chance to -- won't
12:06:20 have a chance ton speak to it and we won't have a
12:06:22 chance to mull it over ourselves.
12:06:26 >>DAVID SMITH: The study will be brought to council,
12:06:29 the information that's in this study will be discussed,
12:06:31 and you will be apprised of everything they found out.
12:06:33 Now, what is really going to be involved, I don't want
12:06:38 to mislead you, things will follow from that.
12:06:40 You are going to have to approve every contract that
12:06:42 does that.
12:06:44 >> But the question is when there's a master plan
12:06:46 drafted that is sort of like our comprehensive plan
12:06:49 that says how are we going to use our reclaimed water,
12:06:53 our groundwater for the next 20 years, I think that's a
12:06:57 policy decision that this council should weigh in on
12:07:00 before we as a city ratify it.
12:07:02 >> Council member, our consultant is going to come to
12:07:06 us and say we have looked at all of this stuff, we have
12:07:09 considered all of the possibilities, we have looked at
12:07:11 permitting, Weaver looked at real estate, we have
12:07:13 looked at, you know, geography, where things are.
12:07:16 And based on everything that we see, here's what we

12:07:19 recommend.
12:07:20 But what the city does, what the city adopts as our
12:07:24 plan for moving forward on reclaimed, will be ours.
12:07:28 I mean, we are not going to say, okay, you gave us a
12:07:32 report and that's it forever more.
12:07:34 They will give us their best advice.
12:07:37 And then we are going to take that information and
12:07:39 develop how we are going to move forward.
12:07:42 And we would certainly want the council to endorse
12:07:44 that.
12:07:45 Absolutely.
12:07:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And that's what I'll count on.
12:07:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern and then
12:07:51 councilman Miranda I.want to point out to you all that
12:07:54 it is now 6 minutes after 12:00 and I do want to cover
12:07:58 two items before we go to our closed session.
12:08:01 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
12:08:02 I'll be quick.
12:08:03 I just want to point out and remind everyone that the
12:08:09 less potable waters that people in Tampa use, the more
12:08:16 reclaimed water we have, the less potable water we use
12:08:19 and the less we have to spend on Tampa Bay water to buy

12:08:22 water.
12:08:22 So that's something that I think has to be foremost as
12:08:26 we look at this.
12:08:27 And I really am thrilled that we are looking at it.
12:08:34 >>> Our first goal is to offset potable.
12:08:38 The second goal is to keep low rates for our customers.
12:08:41 >> That's the other thing that I think we have to
12:08:44 continue to use incentives to get people to use it.
12:08:48 But potable water has to cost less, and -- or more, and
12:08:54 the reclaimed has to cost less.
12:08:56 So there's got to be a balance here.
12:09:00 But we have to encourage people if they are not going
12:09:02 to use it.
12:09:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Real quickly, that has been
12:09:06 considered, to make some type of changes and the cost
12:09:11 of potable water.
12:09:12 I can also tell you one thing straightforward.
12:09:14 We cannot afford to spend all this money and put it all
12:09:18 in the neighborhoods and then no one signs up.
12:09:21 So I am going to look for leadership on this council to
12:09:24 write the ordinance, to say that if we invest the
12:09:27 money, and we put the pipe you will signed up mandatory

12:09:31 because you cannot do this without making it mandatory
12:09:34 for the benefit of the people who are getting it and
12:09:36 the benefit of those who are not getting it so they
12:09:38 don't pay for that benefit.
12:09:41 That's all I am going to say, Mr. Chairman.
12:09:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
12:09:44 On item 69, I will bring that back later on at the end
12:09:47 of the others.
12:09:53 Item 70.
12:09:53 Do you want to speak to that?
12:09:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Yes, council.
12:09:56 It's come to my attention that I believe council member
12:09:59 Saul-Sena is not prepared to vote on this issue today.
12:10:02 It would be my recommendation then that it would be
12:10:03 appropriate to continue this item for two weeks for
12:10:09 unfinished business at the next regular meeting.
12:10:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
12:10:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is that correct, Mrs. Saul-Sena?
12:10:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's correct.
12:10:17 I hate to put people off.
12:10:18 I'm thinking we have a zoning meeting next Thursday
12:10:20 evening at 6:00.

12:10:21 If we put it on the agenda at the beginning of the
12:10:23 zoning meeting --
12:10:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You would have to waive your rules to
12:10:26 do that.
12:10:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move to waive the rules.
12:10:32 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: What is that?
12:10:34 >> This is in reference to the item on Spruce Street
12:10:36 where Mr. Redner was trying to --
12:10:40 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry to interrupt but the clerk
12:10:42 also has reminded me that the council does have a
12:10:45 regular meeting scheduled for next week as well.
12:10:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's right.
12:10:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay.
12:10:53 Do we need to waive the rules for that or not?
12:10:55 That would be sooner.
12:10:58 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Do you want to continue it to that?
12:11:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to continue to our next regular
12:11:04 council meeting on June 12th at 10 a.m.?
12:11:14 At 11?
12:11:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is that the 12th already?
12:11:21 It is?
12:11:21 Okay.

12:11:23 Is there a second?
12:11:26 >> Yes.
12:11:26 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Is it possible, when Mr. Redner
12:11:29 was here, he talked about wanting to build cover the
12:11:33 ditch and the sidewalk.
12:11:34 He made an offer to the city.
12:11:36 And evidently the city refused it.
12:11:40 Could we get a report on that particular item?
12:11:45 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Not unless the council intends to
12:11:46 reopen the public hearing, reopen the issue, and give
12:11:50 all parties the opportunity --
12:11:56 >>: It doesn't have anything to do with this.
12:11:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.
12:12:00 My suggestion is wait until this situation is handled.
12:12:03 Not to intermingle the two issues.
12:12:05 >> All in favor let it be known by Aye.
12:12:08 So moved.
12:12:09 Item 71.
12:12:10 I want to go ahead and deal with this so we can get it
12:12:12 out of the way.
12:12:13 Staff has been here all morning.
12:12:14 Do you want to go ahead, and introduce this again?

12:12:21 >>TOYIN AINA HARGRETT: We have before you for second
12:12:22 reading your equal business opportunity ordinance.
12:12:25 I made the changes that you reflected at your last
12:12:28 hearing.
12:12:29 I also provided to you in a memo changes that we
12:12:32 thought were appropriate.
12:12:34 They are nonsubstantive changes, but thought it
12:12:37 necessary to rework 26.5-24 in order to indicate the
12:12:42 actual department that would be responsible for the
12:12:45 additional measures to assist these small businesses
12:12:48 and also to respect the relationship between the primes
12:12:51 and the subcontractors and basically not have the city
12:12:54 involved in contractual responsibilities.
12:12:58 So with that, I would ask that you go ahead and move to
12:13:00 accept those changes, if you deem it appropriate, and
12:13:03 proceed with your public hearing.
12:13:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion to open, please.
12:13:06 >> So moved.
12:13:07 >> Second.
12:13:08 (Motion carried).
12:13:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone here from the public wishes to
12:13:11 address council may come forward at this time.

12:13:13 Anyone who wishes to address council on this.
12:13:18 Public hearing.
12:13:19 >>> Joe Robinson, Palmetto street, Tampa, Florida.
12:13:22 Thank you for having it.
12:13:25 I won't be able to come back at 1:30 because I go to
12:13:28 SWFWMD and get you all money to help this reclaimed
12:13:31 water.
12:13:34 And ask you all about this master plan.
12:13:37 And I agree with Mr. Miranda.
12:13:43 I don't want to make it too mandatory because I'm
12:13:47 forcing our board to come up with some money, try to
12:13:49 come up with money for connection fees.
12:13:51 That's the problem, paying that fee to connect, getting
12:13:53 a plumber to hook um.
12:13:55 So I'm telling them, we need to provide some money for
12:13:58 connection fees.
12:13:59 And I got our staff looking at that because that's
12:14:01 what's holding it up.
12:14:03 Because for the last seven years I been sitting on
12:14:06 SWFWMD about hooking up but I'm glad that's a resource.
12:14:10 But getting back to this, I am going to see that it
12:14:14 becomes law.

12:14:15 The reason being that this money, the $9 million,
12:14:20 really couldn't do anything, not Motorola but the
12:14:25 M/A-COM.
12:14:27 However, we have another big deal coming up that's
12:14:29 going to be due tomorrow, proposals that are going to
12:14:32 come in tomorrow for the security with the shifting
12:14:35 around people and all the parks and rec and that
12:14:38 contract is going to be somewhere, and our estimate is
12:14:40 about 5 to $7 million over the five years that it would
12:14:45 probably be in effect.
12:14:46 And to my knowledge, there really was no minority
12:14:51 business requirement or anything like that, having
12:14:54 talked to a few vendors.
12:14:56 And it's due tomorrow.
12:14:57 So hopefully if this gets passed today, wherever you
12:15:02 are at, please sign it so they don't wait two weeks to
12:15:06 come but maybe tomorrow after the security will come in
12:15:08 so but definitely we need to sign this ordinance
12:15:13 immediately, hopefully tomorrow as opposed to today,
12:15:18 instead of waiting two weeks for it to become law.
12:15:21 I just want to thank staff and everybody, Ms. Miller
12:15:27 for the last five years, Linda for the last 20 years,

12:15:29 and Reverend Scott for bringing it here, bringing it
12:15:35 and sticking with it and making this thing go down
12:15:37 right.
12:15:38 Because I got gray hairs now, my voice is going, and I
12:15:42 think this is going to be the best thing.
12:15:44 One final note. My firm finally did get some work.
12:15:48 They paid me in quicker time than the school board.
12:15:52 City of Tampa paid me very last check in less than ten
12:15:56 days.
12:15:56 I'm impressed with that.
12:16:01 So David Barnes, whatever you are doing is working.
12:16:06 I'm doing it and I got paid.
12:16:07 So I been here 12 years, but once this is approved by
12:16:14 City Council, please execute and don't sit on it
12:16:17 because once it's executed and becomes law.
12:16:22 Thank you.
12:16:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else from the public?
12:16:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
12:16:26 >> Second.
12:16:26 (Motion carried).
12:16:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I want to ask Ms. Miller to read that.
12:16:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Does the clerk have -- the title is

12:16:37 the same.
12:16:43 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Does the clerk have the full correct
12:16:45 ordinance?
12:16:46 >> Yes, she does.
12:16:47 >>GWEN MILLER: I move for second reading, an ordinance
12:16:51 of the city of Tampa, Florida amending and restating
12:16:54 chapter 26.5 City of Tampa code of ordinances requiring
12:16:57 equal employment opportunity, prohibiting
12:17:00 discrimination in public contracting and procurement,
12:17:03 establishing programs for small local business
12:17:07 enterprise SLBEs, including reporting requirements
12:17:11 and other race and gender-neutral means to eliminate
12:17:15 discrimination, creating a standby women and minority
12:17:20 business enterprise program and repealing all
12:17:22 ordinances or parts of ordinances in conflict
12:17:25 therewith, providing an effective date.
12:17:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me just say again that we want to
12:17:31 thank the city attorney, his staff, those who worked
12:17:35 hard on this, Mr. Hart, thank you very much.
12:17:38 It's been a long time coming.
12:17:39 We are finally here.
12:17:43 It is a long way from being perfect but it is a good

12:17:45 start.
12:17:46 I think we have about 99% of what we have asked in this
12:17:50 to move forward.
12:17:51 So it's a good start.
12:17:52 And so we look forward to the funding.
12:17:56 You can pass an ordinance but if you don't have the
12:17:59 funding in place you still have problems.
12:18:00 So let's be mindful of that.
12:18:02 Moved by councilwoman Miller, seconded by councilman
12:18:06 Miranda.
12:18:06 Record your vote.
12:18:17 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder being
12:18:18 absent.
12:18:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
12:18:20 We will now go into closed session and take the rest of
12:18:23 our items when we come back.
12:18:25 Notice is hereby given ton Tampa City Council this to
12:18:29 go into closed session pursuant to section 286-0118,
12:18:35 Florida statutes for approximately one hour.
12:18:37 Meeting will convene in the conference room on the
12:18:39 8th floor of City Hall, City Council will discuss
12:18:42 settlement negotiations and strategy session related to

12:18:46 litigation expenditures for the case of clear channel
12:18:50 outdoors, Inc., versus City of Tampa, case 04-01335.
12:18:55 The meeting will be attended by City Council chair Tom
12:18:59 Scott, council member Mary Mulhern, Linda Saul-Sena,
12:19:01 councilwoman Gwen Miller, councilman Charlie Miranda,
12:19:05 councilman Joseph Caetano, city attorney David Smith,
12:19:08 Julia Cole, Gary, Martin Shelby.
12:19:12 Prior following closed session will open in City
12:19:16 Council chambers so chair can announce termination and
12:19:18 the council will take any formal action is deemed
12:19:22 necessary.
12:19:22 Okay.
12:19:23 With that being said, we move into our closed session.
12:19:27 Thank you.
12:19:28 (The City Council recessed to move into closed session
12:20:30 at 12:20 p.m.)

Tampa City Council
Thursday, June 5, 2008
1:30 p.m.

The following represents an unedited version of
realtime captioning which should neither be relied
upon for complete accuracy nor used as a verbatim
transcript. Because this document has not been
edited, there may be additions, deletions, and/or
words that did not translate correctly.

13:31:38 >> CHAIRMAN SCOTT: City Council will now come to
13:32:22 order.
13:32:22 Roll call.
13:32:27 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
13:32:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
13:32:31 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
13:32:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
13:32:34 Pursuant to section 2-A-6.011A Florida statutes to
13:32:41 discuss Clear Channel Outdoor, Inc., versus City of
13:32:44 Tampa, case number 04-01335 is hereby terminated.
13:32:49 Okay.
13:32:50 So that's all the action we need to take on that.

13:32:56 Let me receive item -- proceed to item 72.
13:33:00 We passed the item 71 before going to lunch.
13:33:09 That is the ordinance which we forward to the mayor.
13:33:14 I would suggest or request the mayor may want to have
13:33:18 a signing ceremony, would like council to be a part of
13:33:21 that.
13:33:26 Given a year and a half, two years involved in that, a
13:33:33 lot of people to have the opportunity.
13:33:34 Okay.
13:33:35 Item 72.
13:33:37 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Chairman, these items are second
13:33:43 readings.
13:33:44 They are quasi-judicial.
13:33:45 They would require that witnesses, if they do intend
13:33:50 to testify, be sworn.
13:33:51 These are items 72 through 82.
13:33:56 And I would also request that all written material
13:33:59 relative to today's hearings which have been available
13:34:01 for public inspection at City Council's office be
13:34:03 received and filed into the record before you proceed
13:34:06 and move forward.
13:34:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.

13:34:10 We need a motion.
13:34:14 >> Move to receive and file.
13:34:16 >> Second.
13:34:16 (Motion carried).
13:34:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: If you are going to be speaking, you
13:34:20 need to stand and be sworn.
13:34:22 If you are going to be addressing council this
13:34:23 afternoon, please stand and raise your right hand.
13:34:29 (Oath administered by Clerk) item 272.
13:34:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Move to open 72 to 83.
13:34:41 >> Second.
13:34:42 (Motion carried).
13:34:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So moved.
13:34:46 Item 72.
13:34:51 Anyone here wishes to address council on item 72?
13:34:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13:34:59 I don't remember the initial discussion on this.
13:35:00 It appears that what's being requested is some public
13:35:04 right-of-way, that dead-ends into the railroad tracks.
13:35:08 If someone could speak on it.
13:35:12 Perhaps the petitioner, perhaps the city.
13:35:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is there anyone here from the

13:35:18 petitioner or from the city?
13:35:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I apologize, I don't remember the
13:35:31 original conversation about this, if you could quickly
13:35:33 share what the story is, what you are proposing.
13:35:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: State your name address.
13:35:38 >>> Jerry Curts, Curts Jones architects, east sixth
13:35:45 Avenue, Tampa.
13:35:46 I'm the property owner on this piece of property.
13:35:49 It's historically a little piece of 13th street
13:35:53 off the grid, was moved to the east.
13:35:55 The streetcar tracks, we donated to the city through
13:35:59 our property, to connect fifth and sixth Avenue.
13:36:05 Along the old, the original right-of-way line for
13:36:07 13th street.
13:36:09 We came to the city about six months ago with the
13:36:13 proposed development for our property, which was just
13:36:15 east of the railroad tracks, two parcels separated by
13:36:19 13th street.
13:36:20 The city recommended that we move 13th street back
13:36:24 to its original line in the grid against the streetcar
13:36:28 tracks, which would help the city, and also gave us a
13:36:31 contiguous piece of property.

13:36:33 So that's the essence of this, if that answers your
13:36:36 question.
13:36:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
13:36:38 And it looks like this will be more usable and will
13:36:43 allow additional development in Ybor City, which.
13:36:48 >>> That's correct.
13:36:49 The main thing it does is currently the intersection
13:36:52 of 13th street and 6th Avenue is totally on
13:36:56 the CSX right-of-way, totally.
13:36:58 And it's only 17 feet wide at the middle so it makes
13:37:02 that whole intersection back on city property, it
13:37:05 makes it legal and it helps, I think, it's good for
13:37:07 everybody.
13:37:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else?
13:37:10 Motion to close.
13:37:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
13:37:12 >> Second.
13:37:13 (Motion carried).
13:37:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern, would you read
13:37:16 item 72?
13:37:17 >>MARY MULHERN: I move an ordinance on second reading,
13:37:21 an ordinance vacating, closing, discontinuing, and

13:37:23 abandoning a certain right-of-way all that portion of
13:37:26 13th street lying south of 6th Avenue, north
13:37:29 of 5th Avenue, and CSX right-of-way and west of
13:37:34 Avenida republic de Cuba and all that portion of
13:37:37 alleyway lying south of 6th Avenue and north of
13:37:40 5th Avenue and west of the proposed vacated
13:37:43 13th street in Lesley's subdivision a subdivision
13:37:46 locate in the City of Tampa, Hillsborough County
13:37:48 Florida the same being more fully described in section
13:37:50 2 hereof providing an effective date.
13:37:52 >> Second.
13:37:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded, seconded by
13:37:55 councilman Miranda.
13:37:59 Record your vote.
13:38:13 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder being
13:38:15 absent.
13:38:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 73.
13:38:21 Petitioner?
13:38:30 Item 73.
13:38:31 Anyone here on this?
13:38:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Move to close.
13:38:33 >> Second.

13:38:33 (Motion carried).
13:38:37 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: An ordinance being presented for
13:38:39 second reading, an ordinance approving an historic
13:38:42 preservation property tax exemption application
13:38:45 relative to the restoration, renovation or
13:38:47 rehabilitation of certain property owned by Nick J.
13:38:50 Alexander and mark A. Reynold located at 2105 west
13:38:55 hills Avenue, Tampa, Florida, in the Hyde Park
13:38:57 historic district, based upon certain findings,
13:39:01 providing for notice to the property appraiser of
13:39:03 Hillsborough County, providing for severability,
13:39:06 providing for repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
13:39:10 providing an effective date.
13:39:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
13:39:20 Vote and record.
13:39:25 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder being
13:39:27 absent.
13:39:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
13:39:28 Item 74.
13:39:30 Petitioner or anyone here want to address the public
13:39:34 hearing?
13:39:36 >>> My name is Mike LaMotte, I live at 4929 River

13:39:39 Shore Drive, Tampa 33603.
13:39:43 I'm here representing Michael LaMotte lives at the
13:39:49 subject property of North Tampa Street and had a
13:39:54 hearing and answered some of the questions that needed
13:39:56 answering last meeting and I'm here to answer any
13:39:59 additional questions you may have.
13:40:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
13:40:00 Anyone else from the public wishes to address council?
13:40:03 Seeing none, motion to close?
13:40:04 >> So moved.
13:40:05 >> Second.
13:40:05 (Motion carried).
13:40:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena, item 74.
13:40:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move the following
13:40:16 ordinance upon adoption at second reading, an
13:40:18 ordinance approving a special use permit S-1 on appeal
13:40:21 from a decision of the zoning administrator, approving
13:40:23 an extended family residence in an RS-50 residential
13:40:27 single-family zoning district in the city of Tampa,
13:40:29 Florida and more particularly described in section 1
13:40:33 allowing an extended family residence, providing an
13:40:36 effective date.

13:40:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Record your vote, please.
13:40:48 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder being
13:40:49 absent.
13:40:50 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 75.
13:40:52 Anyone wishes to address council?
13:40:54 Item 75.
13:40:55 Anyone wishes to address council?
13:41:00 >>> Steven Watson, a lawyer in Clearwater, address of
13:41:02 1446 -- in Clearwater, 33756.
13:41:06 We'll try to answer any questions you may have.
13:41:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone from the public?
13:41:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Move to close.
13:41:12 >> Second.
13:41:13 (Motion carried).
13:41:14 >>GWEN MILLER: I move to adopt the following ordinance
13:41:19 upon second reading, an ordinance making lawful the
13:41:22 sale of beverages containing alcohol of more than 1%
13:41:24 by weight and not more than 14% by weight and wines
13:41:29 regardless of alcoholic content, beer and wine,
13:41:31 2(APS), in sealed containers for consumption off
13:41:34 premises only at or from that certain lot, plot or
13:41:38 tract of land located at 4941 east Busch Boulevard

13:41:43 suite 210 Tampa, Florida as more particularly
13:41:46 described in section 2 hereof waiving certain
13:41:48 restrictions as to distance based upon certain
13:41:55 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
13:41:58 conflict, providing an effective date.
13:41:59 THE CLERK: I need a second.
13:42:01 >> Second.
13:42:01 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder being
13:42:04 absent.
13:42:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 76.
13:42:10 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:42:17 Item 76.
13:42:20 >> Move to close.
13:42:23 >> Second.
13:42:24 (Motion carried).
13:42:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move an ordinance for second
13:42:27 reading, an ordinance repealing ordinance 2005-184
13:42:31 making lawful the sale of beverages regardless of
13:42:33 alcoholic contend beer, wine and liquor 4(COP) for
13:42:37 consumption on the premises and in sealed containers
13:42:40 for consumption off the premises in connection with a
13:42:43 business establishment on that certain lot, plot or

13:42:45 tract of land located at 707 harbor post drive, Tampa,
13:42:49 Florida as more particularly described in section 2
13:42:52 hereof waiving certain restrictions as to distance
13:42:55 based upon certain findings, providing for repeal of
13:42:58 all ordinances in conflict, providing an effective
13:43:00 date.
13:43:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Voice roll call on this.
13:43:03 Moved and seconded.
13:43:06 Seconded by -- okay.
13:43:11 Clerk.
13:43:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes.
13:43:15 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
13:43:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
13:43:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
13:43:21 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Yes.
13:43:22 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
13:43:23 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Dingfelder being
13:43:26 absent.
13:43:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 77.
13:43:31 Anyone wishing to address council on item 77?
13:43:34 This is a public hearing.
13:43:35 Anyone wishing to address council?

13:43:37 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:43:38 Motion to close.
13:43:39 >>GWEN MILLER: Move to close.
13:43:42 >> Second.
13:43:42 (Motion carried).
13:43:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 77, councilwoman Mulhern.
13:43:47 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, chairman.
13:43:49 I move an ordinance being presented for second
13:43:51 reading, an ordinance making lawful the sale of
13:43:53 beverages containing alcohol of more than 1% by weight
13:43:56 and not more than 14% by weight and wines regardless
13:43:59 of alcoholic content, beer and wine, 2(COP-R), for
13:44:03 consumption on the premises only in connection with a
13:44:06 restaurant business establishment on that certain lot,
13:44:09 plot or tract of land located at 1912-1914 South Dale
13:44:13 Mabry Highway, Tampa, Florida, as more particularly
13:44:17 described in section 2 hereof, waiving certain
13:44:20 restrictions as to distance based upon certain
13:44:23 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
13:44:25 conflict, providing an effective date.
13:44:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It's been moved and seconded.
13:44:30 Record your vote, please.

13:44:38 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:44:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 78.
13:44:41 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:44:43 This is a public hearing.
13:44:44 Anyone who wishes to address council on item 78.
13:44:48 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
13:44:54 >> Second.
13:44:55 (Motion carried).
13:44:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Caetano.
13:44:59 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: An ordinance presented for second
13:45:01 reading, an ordinance making lawful the sale of
13:45:04 beverages containing alcohol regardless of alcoholic
13:45:06 content beer, wine and liquor 4(COP-R) for consumption
13:45:09 on the premises only in connection with a restaurant
13:45:12 business establishment on that certain lot, plot or
13:45:16 tract of land located at 2223 North Westshore
13:45:20 Boulevard, unit B-210, Tampa, Florida, as more
13:45:24 particularly described in section 2 hereof, waiving
13:45:27 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
13:45:31 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
13:45:34 conflict, providing an effective date.
13:45:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.

13:45:40 Record your vote.
13:45:48 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:45:50 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 79.
13:45:51 Anyone here wishing to address council?
13:45:53 This is a public hearing.
13:45:55 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:45:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
13:45:59 >> Second.
13:45:59 (Motion carried).
13:46:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
13:46:02 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move the following
13:46:06 ordinance for second reading an adoption, an ordinance
13:46:08 making -- repealing ordinance number 2003-204 making
13:46:13 lawful the sale of beverages regardless of alcoholic
13:46:15 content, beer, wine and liquor, 4(COP-X), for
13:46:18 consumption on premises only at or from that certain
13:46:22 lot, plot or tract of land located at 1235 east
13:46:27 Hillsborough Avenue, Tampa, Florida, and as more
13:46:29 particularly described in section 3 hereof, waiving
13:46:32 certain restrictions as to distance based upon certain
13:46:35 findings, providing for repeal of all ordinances in
13:46:38 conflict, providing an effective date.

13:46:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
13:46:42 Record your votes.
13:46:49 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:46:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 80 is a public hearing.
13:46:55 Anyone wishing to address council on item 80?
13:46:58 >>> Ron Weaver, 401 East Jackson Street, attorney for
13:47:01 the applicant.
13:47:01 I have been sworn.
13:47:02 If you have you have any questions.
13:47:08 >> Move to close.
13:47:09 >>> Good afternoon.
13:47:11 LaChone Dock, Land Development Coordination.
13:47:13 Items 80, 81 and 82 all required certified site plans.
13:47:17 Those plans have been certified by the zoning
13:47:19 administrator and provided to the clerk.
13:47:21 I do have copies of those, if you have any questions.
13:47:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And motion to close?
13:47:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
13:47:27 >> Second.
13:47:27 (Motion carried).
13:47:28 >>GWEN MILLER: I move to adopt the following ordinance
13:47:32 upon second reading.

13:47:34 An ordinance rezoning property in the general vicinity
13:47:36 of 6608 South Westshore Boulevard in the city of
13:47:39 Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
13:47:41 section 1 from zoning district classifications IG
13:47:44 industrial general to PD planned development,
13:47:47 residential multifamily, restaurant, retail, providing
13:47:50 an effective date.
13:47:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
13:47:56 Record your vote.
13:48:01 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:48:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 81 is a public hearing.
13:48:10 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:48:12 This is a public hearing.
13:48:13 Anyone wishing to address council on 81?
13:48:15 Motion to close.
13:48:16 >> So moved.
13:48:18 >> Second.
13:48:19 (Motion carried).
13:48:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 81.
13:48:22 Councilman Dingfelder.
13:48:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move the following ordinance upon
13:48:26 second reading, an ordinance rezoning property in the

13:48:29 general vicinity of 3708 west Bay to Bay Boulevard in
13:48:31 the city of Tampa, Florida and more particularly
13:48:33 described in section 1 from zoning district
13:48:34 classifications PD planned development, office, real
13:48:39 estate, to PD, planned development, office,
13:48:42 business/professional, providing an effective date.
13:48:44 >>
13:48:47 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
13:48:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Record your vote.
13:48:50 Seconded by councilwoman Saul-Sena.
13:48:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And Mr. Weiss sends his regards
13:48:56 from Europe.
13:48:56 He's still watching.
13:48:58 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:49:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 82.
13:49:04 This is a public hearing.
13:49:05 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:49:06 This is a public hearing.
13:49:07 Motion to close?
13:49:08 >> So moved.
13:49:09 >> Second.
13:49:09 (Motion carried).

13:49:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Councilman Miranda.
13:49:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move an ordinance for second
13:49:15 reading, an ordinance rezoning property in the general
13:49:18 vicinity of 301 south Dale Mabry highway in the city
13:49:21 of Tampa, Florida and more particularly described in
13:49:23 section 1 from zoning district classification PD
13:49:25 planned development, bank, to PD, planned development,
13:49:28 office, retail, fitness, restaurant, providing an
13:49:31 effective date.
13:49:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Record your vote.
13:49:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
13:49:38 Record your vote.
13:49:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion carried unanimously.
13:49:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 83 is a public hearing.
13:49:51 Anyone wishing to address council on item 83?
13:49:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
13:49:55 >> Second.
13:49:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor let it be known by Aye.
13:50:00 Opposes?
13:50:01 Mr. Miranda?
13:50:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13:50:05 This is a second continued public adoption hearing

13:50:08 from May 1st, 2008 on a small scale plan amendment
13:50:11 to the Tampa comprehensive plan, future land use
13:50:13 element, future land use map, for the property located
13:50:16 in the general vicinity of 10th Avenue and
13:50:19 50th street from public semi-public to heavy
13:50:22 commercial 24.
13:50:23 An ordinance amending the Tampa comprehensive plan,
13:50:26 future land use element, future land use map for the
13:50:31 property located in the general vicinity of 10th
13:50:33 Avenue and 50th street from public-semi-public to
13:50:37 community mixed use 35, providing for repeal of all
13:50:40 ordinances in conflict, providing for severability,
13:50:41 providing an effective date.
13:50:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
13:50:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Record your vote.
13:50:52 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:50:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Need a motion to open 84 and 85.
13:50:58 >> So moved.
13:50:59 >> Second.
13:51:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And 8.
13:51:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open all three.
13:51:05 (Motion carried)

13:51:15 Item 84.
13:51:16 A public hearing.
13:51:16 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:51:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Move to close.
13:51:20 >> Second.
13:51:21 (Motion carried).
13:51:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I move the following ordinance upon
13:51:25 second reading, an ordinance amending the Tampa
13:51:31 comprehensive plan, by creating a public school
13:51:33 facilities element, providing for repeal of all
13:51:35 ordinances in conflict, providing for severability,
13:51:37 providing an effective date.
13:51:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Record your vote.
13:51:45 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:51:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 85.
13:51:50 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:51:52 Anyone wishing to address council on the public
13:51:54 hearing?
13:51:55 >>: Move to close.
13:51:56 >> Second.
13:51:57 (Motion carried).
13:51:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Move an ordinance amending the Tampa

13:52:01 comprehensive plan intergovernmental coordination
13:52:04 element to coordinate with public school plan
13:52:09 providing repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
13:52:12 providing for severability, providing an effective
13:52:13 date.
13:52:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT:
13:52:14 >>: Second.
13:52:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Record your vote.
13:52:17 It's been moved and seconded.
13:52:21 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:52:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 86.
13:52:24 This is a public hearing.
13:52:25 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:52:27 Anyone wishing to address council?
13:52:29 Item 86.
13:52:30 >> Move to close.
13:52:33 >> Second.
13:52:33 (Motion carried).
13:52:34 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to move the following
13:52:37 ordinance for adoption after second reading.
13:52:41 An ordinance amending the Tampa comprehensive plan
13:52:44 capital improvements element to coordinate public

13:52:48 school planning and to incorporate the school board's
13:52:50 five year district facilities plan, providing for
13:52:52 repeal of all ordinances in conflict, providing for
13:52:55 severability, providing an effective date.
13:52:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Clerk, roll call or voice vote?
13:53:01 >> Second.
13:53:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes.
13:53:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes.
13:53:07 >>GWEN MILLER: Yes.
13:53:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
13:53:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
13:53:12 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Yes.
13:53:13 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
13:53:15 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried unanimously.
13:53:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay, thank you.
13:53:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: On 87, move to open, to continue to
13:53:22 June 19th at 10:00 in the morning.
13:53:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We took care of that already.
13:53:30 We did it earlier, did we not?
13:53:32 On items 88 through 91 we need to open and witnesses
13:53:42 need to be sworn.
13:53:42 If you are here to address council on those items,

13:53:44 please stand.
13:53:45 Be sworn at this time.
13:53:47 If you are here to address council and have not been
13:53:50 sworn.
13:53:52 If you have not been sworn.
13:53:54 You have all been sworn?
13:53:55 If you have not been sworn, go ahead, clerk.
13:53:57 (Oath administered by Clerk) move to open all those
13:54:07 items.
13:54:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
13:54:09 >> Second.
13:54:09 (Motion carried).
13:54:10 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
13:54:12 Item number 88, Yeoman's road was the remaining
13:54:16 establishment that hadn't paid their fee.
13:54:18 They have paid that as of last week so we ask that you
13:54:20 remove it from the agenda.
13:54:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
13:54:23 >> Second.
13:54:23 (Motion carried).
13:54:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Item 89.
13:54:30 >>> I'm for preservation to review 89 and 90 if we

13:54:38 could open those together, please.
13:54:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: They are already open.
13:54:45 >>> For ad valorem exemption.
13:54:50 This is a 1927 photo of the factory located at 1525
13:54:56 and is currently owned by Seybold Cityhomes, Hyde Park
13:55:02 national historic district.
13:55:03 This was constructed in 1926 as the Seybold bakery and
13:55:07 is one and two-story commercial structure.
13:55:10 The architecture is a Mediterranean style with stucco
13:55:15 walls and bell tile roof.
13:55:21 This is prior to rehabilitation and then after
13:55:24 rehabilitation.
13:55:28 We have rehabilitation obviously.
13:55:33 Some of the character design features.
13:55:36 The windows around.
13:55:39 The windows themselves.
13:55:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just for the record you are on
13:55:43 number 90 right now.
13:55:47 >>> Some of the features of the building.
13:55:52 Moving into the interior.
13:55:54 This is a hallway.
13:56:01 Lastly showing the spacious rooms, the flooring and

13:56:09 interior spaces.
13:56:12 This is consistent with the secretary's standards for
13:56:16 rehabilitation and meets our standards.
13:56:18 That's the presentation for 90.
13:56:27 Snoop thank you for leaving the image up.
13:56:29 I think this is one of the most creative and sensitive
13:56:32 rehabs we have seen in the city.
13:56:33 It's difficult to go from an industrial use to a
13:56:35 residential use.
13:56:37 And I admire the developer of this property for being
13:56:44 really careful and sensitive, in addition to
13:56:47 preserving the tax credits.
13:56:50 They deserve a real "thank you" from the city for
13:56:53 maintaining this really outstanding building, because
13:56:57 it's a tremendous asset to the neighborhood.
13:57:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions by council?
13:57:05 This is a public hearing.
13:57:06 Anyone wanting to address council on, what, 89 and 90.
13:57:11 >>> Do you want me to go in 89?
13:57:13 I did it in reverse order.
13:57:15 Do you want me to go into 89 at this time?
13:57:18 >> Yes.

13:57:23 >>> This is the structure in Ybor City.
13:57:25 This is a contributing structure in Ybor City, local
13:57:28 district.
13:57:29 It was relocated in 2003 from 1822 14th Avenue to
13:57:33 1301 Columbus Drive.
13:57:35 It was constructed in 1913.
13:57:38 It's a two-story red brick building, one of the few
13:57:41 remaining examples of historic boarding house which
13:57:43 was used largely to house the cigar factory workers
13:57:50 when they came to this country.
13:57:54 This is the structure at its previous site before the
13:57:59 move.
13:58:04 This shows it in transit.
13:58:06 This is at the receiving site, Columbus drive here.
13:58:15 This is a front elevation which faces north.
13:58:17 This is a side elevation here on the bottom which
13:58:20 faces west.
13:58:21 And then the rear.
13:58:24 Prior to rehabilitation, obviously.
13:58:32 This is the kitchen after rehabilitation.
13:58:36 The central corridor.
13:58:40 Respected and left in its place.

13:58:43 The trim and wainscoting below.
13:58:47 After rehabilitation, the wood floors there as well.
13:58:55 Showing the trim around the windows.
13:58:59 And the door, but the trim, the transit, from the
13:59:07 exterior to the central hallway.
13:59:09 This project also consisted of Secretary of Interior
13:59:13 standards and we are seeking approval of this as well.
13:59:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone from the public wish to address
13:59:18 council on item 89?
13:59:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
13:59:24 This, I believe, was moved with state FDOT money and
13:59:27 rehabbed with their money.
13:59:28 And I believe when it sold, the proceeds from that go
13:59:32 back to our revolving loan of historical and trust
13:59:37 fund.
13:59:37 >>> That's correct.
13:59:38 And the closing date for that is supposed to be June
13:59:41 17th.
13:59:42 >> Do you know what the use is?
13:59:43 >>> The use is going to be the same manner it
13:59:47 performed originally, it's going to house the war
13:59:51 veterans as they come back into society, as a

13:59:53 transition house.
13:59:54 When they come back they are going to come here, get
13:59:57 back into society, and then progress from there.
14:00:03 >> Isn't Sarah Romeo doing that?
14:00:05 >>> That's correct.
14:00:06 >> That's great.
14:00:07 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Do they have a sprinkler system
14:00:09 or hard wired system?
14:00:10 >>> Yes.
14:00:11 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Okay.
14:00:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion to close 89 and 90.
14:00:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So moved.
14:00:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
14:00:18 (Motion carried).
14:00:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern, do you want to
14:00:23 read 89?
14:00:25 >>MARY MULHERN: I move an ordinance being presented
14:00:27 for first reading, an ordinance approving a historic
14:00:30 preservation property tax exemption application
14:00:32 relative to the restoration, renovation or
14:00:34 rehabilitation of certain property owned by Florida
14:00:36 Department of Transportation, William Scott,

14:00:39 right-of-way administrator, located at 1301 east
14:00:43 Columbus drive, formerly 1822 east 14th Avenue,
14:00:47 Tampa, Florida in the Ybor City historic district,
14:00:49 based upon certain findings, providing for notice to
14:00:52 the property appraiser of Hillsborough County,
14:00:54 providing for severability, providing for repeal of
14:00:56 all ordinances in conflict, providing an effective
14:00:58 date.
14:01:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Do I hear a second?
14:01:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
14:01:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
14:01:06 (Motion carried)
14:01:07 Item 90.
14:01:08 Mr. Caetano?
14:01:09 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: An ordinance being presented for
14:01:18 first reading consideration, an ordinance approving an
14:01:20 historic preservation property tax exemption
14:01:23 application relative to the restoration, renovation,
14:01:26 or rehabilitation of certain property owned by Seybold
14:01:31 Cityhomes located at 1525 Horatio street, formerly 420
14:01:38 South Dakota Avenue, Tampa, Florida, a locally
14:01:42 designated historic landmark based on findings,

14:01:46 providing for notice to the property appraiser of
14:01:48 Hillsborough County, providing for severability,
14:01:49 providing for repeal of all ordinances in conflict,
14:01:52 providing.
14:01:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It's been moved and seconded.
14:01:55 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
14:01:57 Opposed?
14:02:00 (Motion carried).
14:02:00 >>THE CLERK: Second reading and DOS adoption will be
14:02:04 held on June 19th at 10:00.
14:02:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: June 19th second reading.
14:02:09 That's on 89 and 90.
14:02:15 Item 91.
14:02:16 Anyone wishing to address -- okay.
14:02:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
14:02:29 The question arose on the last hearing for this, the
14:02:33 original hearing about the distance separation from
14:02:37 wet zoned parcels, the question of whether or not
14:02:42 there was a bar or convenience store, where the Kash
14:02:45 N' Karry was.
14:02:47 I want to state for the record we are not surveyors.
14:02:50 However, we did go through our GIS system and we

14:02:54 measured approximately what the linear footage was,
14:02:58 distance separation from the parcel to the surrounding
14:03:01 uses, and just to clarify, this falls under chapter 3
14:03:06 and the regulations for chapter 3.
14:03:08 We are now under 27 for future cases but this was
14:03:10 measured under that old regulation.
14:03:13 The distance requirements, how we measure between
14:03:16 these types of uses shall measured by following the
14:03:19 shortest route of ordinary pedestrian travel along a
14:03:23 public thoroughfare from the property line of the
14:03:25 subject property to those other establishments.
14:03:29 So what we do is we actually -- the way we measure, we
14:03:34 have the surveyors measure, from that parcel down the
14:03:37 sidewalk to whatever terminus where there is a
14:03:43 crossing.
14:03:46 The wet zoned site is here and you come down Broadway
14:03:53 to this intersection, and then either cross over and
14:03:56 go north or cross over and go south to whatever
14:03:59 surrounding uses there are. This convenience store of
14:04:01 2(APS), by address, there's sometimes a conflict
14:04:07 between the address of the parcel but it's directly
14:04:10 across the street, actually makes a distance of plus

14:04:13 or minus a thousand even more.
14:04:15 But you come from this parcel straight down.
14:04:16 You cross.
14:04:17 And then you come back across.
14:04:19 If you come here and you go north, you get to the Kash
14:04:22 N' Karry.
14:04:23 Once you cross 50th.
14:04:24 And that's about 90 linear feet.
14:04:28 You keep going north.
14:04:29 There was a gas station about 2100 linear feet across
14:04:33 the street, another gas station, 2(APS) and then
14:04:37 around the corner on old Columbus there was a sandwich
14:04:40 shop.
14:04:40 There was some mention of another bar on 43rd,
14:04:44 and/or 40th Street as well.
14:04:46 And if you look from the wet zoned parcel here
14:04:50 43rd is all the way over here which you can see is
14:04:53 much farther away than anything along 50th street.
14:04:56 But I didn't see any discrepancy between what the
14:05:00 surveyor had shown from the surrounding uses for that
14:05:05 1,000 foot measurement.
14:05:06 I just wanted to clarify for the record.

14:05:08 But we looked at it.
14:05:09 I believe there are some numbers of the public to
14:05:12 speak as well.
14:05:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If I could, Mr. Chairman.
14:05:16 So that convenience store under our new rules, as the
14:05:21 crow flies -- it would be within a thousand feet.
14:05:25 But under those archaic weird rules, up, down and
14:05:28 around.
14:05:31 Okay.
14:05:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is petitioner here?
14:05:38 Then we'll take public testimony.
14:05:42 >> Neal Patel here for the petitioner.
14:05:50 Kalee. Kalpesh Patel is the principal of it.
14:05:55 We had a couple pictures we would like to show you
14:05:57 guys as well of the premises and that there is in fact
14:06:03 an Amscot building there, required permitting and
14:06:09 whatnot to restructure it to put up a convenience
14:06:12 store there, and he's done all of that as well, and
14:06:16 just waiting to open hopefully after this hearing.
14:06:21 Along the lines of opening, he refurbished the place
14:07:05 as well from what it looked like prior to him opening
14:07:05 it.

14:07:06 That's all we have right now.
14:07:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Sir, Patel?
14:07:19 You weren't here last time.
14:07:20 We appreciate you being here on his behalf today.
14:07:23 We had some concerns about communications.
14:07:27 You are going to hear in a minute from now, I think,
14:07:30 from some of the churches' concerns, that your back
14:07:35 door neighbor around the block and some general
14:07:37 neighborhood concerns.
14:07:38 But two questions I had.
14:07:41 On indication when there are neighborhood concerns,
14:07:43 this council will ask a petitioner if you would be
14:07:47 interested in a one-year conditional.
14:07:51 And then what happens is there's sort of like a
14:07:55 temporary thing, you do it for a year, you prove
14:07:59 yourself, be a good neighbor, not cause problems in
14:08:01 the neighborhood, and then come back and go through
14:08:02 the process again a year later, usually for a
14:08:06 permanent situation.
14:08:07 But we can't enforce that and make you do that
14:08:09 necessarily, I don't think.
14:08:10 But we can ask you.

14:08:13 >>> We would be amenable to that.
14:08:15 >> Number two is on occasion petitioners, when they
14:08:20 hear these neighborhood concerns, have volunteered to
14:08:22 not sell singles because sometimes if the neighborhood
14:08:26 has a reputation or some problems, with homeless folks
14:08:30 or other folks like that, with singles and quart
14:08:37 bottles of beer, and that sort of things, sometimes
14:08:39 petitioners offer to do that, and to sell a six-pack,
14:08:42 that's fine, somebody takes a six-pack hopefully they
14:08:46 go home and drink it at their home.
14:08:48 You understand what I'm saying?
14:08:49 >>> That's the intention of my client as well.
14:08:52 He's going to be selling in packages, not in singles.
14:08:55 >> Not in singles or quart bottles?
14:08:57 >>> No, sir.
14:09:00 >> Let's hear from the rest of the folks.
14:09:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Public hearing, come forward, state
14:09:04 your name and address for the record.
14:09:06 >>> Robert L. Herman, I reside at 4503 East 12th
14:09:10 Avenue, I am the registered agent of the Oak Park
14:09:14 Baptist church at 4901 East 10th Avenue, and we
14:09:18 oppose this.

14:09:21 >>GWEN MILLER: Turn it around.
14:09:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes, turn it around, sir.
14:09:39 >>> This is where he wants to put in the convenience
14:09:39 store. We have no objection to the man putting in a
14:09:39 convenience store. My shop is there. We are just
14:09:43 worried about the impact on the neighborhood from the
14:09:46 beer, because we had trouble in that area.
14:09:51 I brought in 50 signatures, since the last time I was
14:09:55 here from the church.
14:09:57 And we just oppose it.
14:10:01 It's just getting closer.
14:10:07 You already have one store across Broadway.
14:10:09 Then Kash N' Karry.
14:10:10 Now they want to put this one in there.
14:10:12 It's just surrounding the church.
14:10:23 That's all I have.
14:10:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, sir.
14:10:25 Next speaker.
14:10:30 >>> I own the property at 4908 east 8th Avenue
14:10:38 which is within 300 feet of that building.
14:10:42 We are currently planning single-family residences and
14:10:49 we oppose because of the impact of our community.

14:10:52 We already have transient traffic, trash buildup,
14:10:56 dumping, other issues that come with the degradation
14:11:00 of the neighborhood.
14:11:01 We oppose that.
14:11:02 Our church opposes that.
14:11:03 We would ask that you don't allow more degradation
14:11:07 into the neighborhood.
14:11:08 It's totally one step at a time.
14:11:10 It's encroaching.
14:11:11 It's impacting on the quality of life in our
14:11:14 neighborhood.
14:11:15 We do get more low income families in that
14:11:17 neighborhood, and therefore we would like to have the
14:11:20 council deny wet zoning, to increase livelihood, and
14:11:26 the well-being of our neighbors, as well as our
14:11:28 residents in our community.
14:11:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else?
14:11:39 Cat
14:11:48 >> Petitioner?
14:11:48 >>> If I may respond to the concerns.
14:11:51 I believe the gentleman here is also the owner of the
14:11:53 store in the back.

14:11:55 Adjacent from this store.
14:11:57 On the other side of the street.
14:12:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Chairman, I was there
14:12:04 yesterday.
14:12:04 I drove the whole thing.
14:12:05 And I was going to ask, and I will ask in the future a
14:12:09 lot more questions than I have in the past.
14:12:12 When somebody comes and objects, that's fine.
14:12:14 I appreciate that.
14:12:15 And the information may sway me one way or the other
14:12:20 but I want to know anytime you come here and you swear
14:12:22 all this is true in evidence and I have to accept it,
14:12:24 do you own any interest or any part interest in any
14:12:28 other alcohol or any store that sells the same type
14:12:31 that you are opposing?
14:12:32 It might be you don't want a gas station but you own a
14:12:37 gas station on the other side of the street.
14:12:39 These are the kinds of things I have to know before I
14:12:41 cast a vote.
14:12:41 So if there's anyone who appeared before this council
14:12:43 today has any interest, any stock or anything in
14:12:45 either Kash N' Karry, the convenience store across the

14:12:49 street who has got a 2(APS), that's on the south side
14:12:52 of the street?
14:12:57 Yes?
14:12:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Sir, sir, you can't speak from there.
14:13:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's all right.
14:13:05 That's all I wanted to know.
14:13:09 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Where is the church in reference
14:13:10 to this?
14:13:12 >>> 10th street?
14:13:16 I think it's about 7 that you feet from the pumps.
14:13:20 700, I'm sorry.
14:13:21 700.
14:13:24 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: 700.
14:13:26 >>> And I do have a document signed by the neighbors
14:13:33 from the premises.
14:13:36 And if you are driving west on Broadway from 301, just
14:13:51 as a reference, there are no convenience stores, or
14:13:57 stores that sell alcohol within five miles on the west
14:14:01 side of the street.
14:14:03 On the north side of the street, rather, on the north
14:14:05 side of Broadway.
14:14:06 The other stores are on the other side.

14:14:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Questions from council?
14:14:16 Motion to close?
14:14:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
14:14:20 >> Second.
14:14:21 (Motion carried).
14:14:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move an ordinance for the first
14:14:27 reading, an ordinance making lawful the sale of
14:14:31 beverages containing alcohol by more than 1% weight
14:14:35 not more than 14% of wine regardless of content 2(APS)
14:14:39 in sealed containers for consumption off premises only
14:14:42 at or from that certain lot, plot or tract of land
14:14:44 located at 4808-A east Broadway Avenue, Tampa, Florida
14:14:49 as more particularly described in section 2 hereof
14:14:51 wavering certain restrictions as to distance based
14:14:54 upon certain findings, providing for repeal of all
14:14:56 ordinances in conflict, providing an effective date.
14:14:58 There's a caveat to that.
14:15:00 I believe I heard earlier Mr. Dingfelder and
14:15:03 petitioner's attorney discussing certain items for
14:15:06 sale, and I think it was narrowed down to nothing less
14:15:08 than a six-pack.
14:15:10 Am I correct?

14:15:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Not singles.
14:15:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I add that to the ordinance and
14:15:17 also say this came under the wire under the distance
14:15:22 requirements, so those new guidelines do not apply in
14:15:26 this case.
14:15:31 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Chairman, I have been informed if
14:15:33 there were any conditions added that it would require
14:15:36 the item be continued, to be amended.
14:15:39 Otherwise it would not be binding upon the petitioner.
14:15:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, this is first reading.
14:15:47 Can't this be worked out between first and second?
14:15:50 >>> It actually requires change to the title.
14:15:54 Continue it for one week.
14:15:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay.
14:15:56 Then we'll have to hold this.
14:15:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Can it be brought back in the meeting
14:16:03 today?
14:16:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I understand that's not possible so
14:16:05 it will have to be continued next week at the earlier
14:16:08 or two weeks.
14:16:10 Council's pleasure.
14:16:11 >>GWEN MILLER: Next week.

14:16:12 We have a meeting next week.
14:16:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: 11:00 then on the 12th of June.
14:16:17 Is that a motion?
14:16:18 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
14:16:21 >> Second.
14:16:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion to continue the item to our
14:16:25 next meeting which is the 12th of June.
14:16:27 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
14:16:29 Opposes?
14:16:30 Okay.
14:16:31 >>MARTIN SHELBY: 11 a.m.
14:16:33 Is that correct?
14:16:34 Thank you.
14:16:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 11 a.m.
14:16:35 So this item is continued.
14:16:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: To add that additional language.
14:16:43 Item 92, appeal hearing.
14:16:59 Item 92 is an appeal hearing.
14:17:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Would you like to have a motion to
14:17:03 open that, please?
14:17:05 Oh, a continued public hearing.
14:17:07 And I believe to inquire whether anybody should be

14:17:11 sworn for that appeal hearing.
14:17:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone who has not been sworn this
14:17:15 afternoon?
14:17:15 Anyone here that has not been sworn?
14:17:17 Okay.
14:17:20 (Oath administered by Clerk).
14:17:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: As a preliminary matter, I just wish
14:17:32 to inform council this is an appeal from the Barrio
14:17:34 Latino commission, at the appeal hearing today before
14:17:38 City Council, no new evidence may be presented to the
14:17:40 City Council, and the City Council's action shall
14:17:44 solely be based on the record created during the
14:17:47 public hearing before the BLC.
14:17:49 The City Council is reviewing the decision of this
14:17:51 board shall determine, one, whether the board's
14:17:55 decision was supported by competent, substantial
14:17:58 evidence, two, whether due process was accorded, and,
14:18:02 three, whether the essential requirements of law has
14:18:04 been observed.
14:18:06 Only those people who spoke at the original hearing
14:18:08 are permitted to testify.
14:18:10 Staff shall begin by presenting the procedural history

14:18:13 of the case to the City Council.
14:18:15 The petitioner will limit his or her arguments to 15
14:18:19 minutes.
14:18:19 The appellant may yield time to persons offering
14:18:22 testimony in support, although as soon as they spoke
14:18:24 at the original hearing.
14:18:25 Those persons opposed to the appeal shall speak for no
14:18:28 more than 15 minutes in total.
14:18:30 Speakers are limited to three minutes each unless
14:18:32 otherwise designated by City Council.
14:18:34 And then the appellant shall have three minutes for
14:18:37 rebuttal.
14:18:38 Now, council, as regard to whether the essential
14:18:42 requirements of law have been observed, what that
14:18:45 means is whether the proper law has been correctly
14:18:49 applied.
14:18:51 I would like to ask Ms. Kert to come and elaborate on
14:18:57 that.
14:18:57 In the meantime I am going to be handing out to
14:19:00 council the standard of review that I just gave to you
14:19:02 so you will have that in front of you during the
14:19:04 course of the hearing.

14:19:04 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
14:19:05 This is an appeal of a request for a demolition of a
14:19:08 contributing structure located in the Ybor City
14:19:10 historic district.
14:19:11 And what I am going to pass out to you is a staff
14:19:16 report.
14:19:16 And I pass that out to you so you all can review the
14:19:19 code that was applied at the Barrio Latino commission.
14:19:22 In short, the applicant has the burden to prove that
14:19:25 the demolition is necessary.
14:19:26 And in determining whether or not it's necessary, the
14:19:29 board is set to consider whether there are
14:19:32 alternatives to the demolition and whether or not the
14:19:34 demolition is justified as an economic hardship.
14:19:37 In determining whether or not it's justified as an
14:19:40 economic hardship, I think the question, whether the
14:19:45 property in the locate doctor can be put to reasonable
14:19:48 beneficial use without the approval of the demolition
14:19:49 and that is the burden of the applicant to demonstrate
14:19:52 that.
14:19:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Petitioner?
14:19:57 >>REBECCA KERT: I believe you generally have staff

14:19:59 give a brief presentation of the barrio.
14:20:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Excuse me.
14:20:04 Before we begin, could you just reclarify?
14:20:08 Are we supposed to be judging this on the basis of how
14:20:11 seems to us, or whether there was a procedure problem?
14:20:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It is to be based, Ms. Saul-Sena, on
14:20:19 the record below.
14:20:21 You are not making judgments based on what you hear
14:20:25 for the first time.
14:20:26 You are reviewing -- the standard of review, those
14:20:29 three different issues, and looking towards whether
14:20:31 there is any error with regard to those.
14:20:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thanks for the clarification.
14:20:37 >>> Good afternoon.
14:20:40 Staff preservation.
14:20:41 We first received submission for the demolition
14:20:45 request by October 4, 2007.
14:20:47 When reviewing an application for demolition, section
14:20:51 27-190 is to be observed.
14:20:54 There's 13 criteria questions there.
14:20:57 Just briefly to go over those criteria questions, it
14:21:01 deals with economic hardship. Number one is the

14:21:04 estimate cost of the proposed demolition.
14:21:06 Number two is a report from a licensed engineer or
14:21:10 architect on the structure soundness of the property.
14:21:15 Three is the market value of the property.
14:21:17 Number 4 is an estimate from an architect, lawyer or
14:21:20 developer on the rehabilitation cost of bringing back
14:21:24 this property to standards.
14:21:26 Number five is the amount paid for the property.
14:21:29 Number six is if it's income-producing.
14:21:33 Number seven discusses if there's a balance on the
14:21:36 mortgage.
14:21:37 Number eight, all appraisals within the last two years
14:21:41 should be submitted into the record.
14:21:42 Number nine, if it was listed for sale or rent in the
14:21:47 last two years.
14:21:48 Number ten is the assessed value according to the two
14:21:51 most recent assessments.
14:21:53 Number eleven is the real estate tax for the last two
14:21:56 years.
14:21:57 Number 12 is the former ownership if it's a
14:22:01 corporation or if it's a sole proprietor.
14:22:03 Number 13, if there's any other additional

14:22:05 information.
14:22:08 To orient you with this project, I have an aerial.
14:22:18 The property in question for the proposed demolition
14:22:20 is in a box here.
14:22:21 It's on third Avenue, you see Adamo to the south,
14:22:26 Nebraska would be to the west, 22nd street to the
14:22:29 east, and then you have 7th Avenue to the north.
14:22:38 This is the Ybor City historic district map.
14:22:41 The property in question is down here.
14:22:45 Showing that it is a contributing structure.
14:22:47 Prior to 2002, this box here was the local district.
14:22:53 After 2002 the district was expanded to the south and
14:22:57 to the east.
14:22:58 When they did that expansion, they included this
14:23:00 building here, thought that it still maintained the
14:23:04 character features of when was built and that's why it
14:23:06 was listed as a contributing structure on the map.
14:23:14 Going to some photos, this is from our site from 2000
14:23:18 showing the condition of the structure.
14:23:25 This is in 2007.
14:23:28 You see the condition of the structure there.
14:23:30 You have some overbrush.

14:23:32 The structure is open to vagrants.
14:23:38 And the back.
14:23:39 This is the rear.
14:23:40 And then you see the roof peeling away.
14:23:42 And there's a hole in the roof on the other side in
14:23:45 the east elevation.
14:23:46 Prior to this going to the first public hearing, staff
14:23:52 set up a site visit.
14:23:53 All the commissioners were able to review the site.
14:23:56 They went in person, got down, were inside and
14:23:58 outside.
14:23:59 They visited the property and the Sur surrounding
14:24:02 properties.
14:24:02 At the first public hearing -- and that was November
14:24:05 16th of 2007.
14:24:06 The first public hearing was November 20th of
14:24:09 2007. That case was continued with the following
14:24:12 conditions: They needed to bring more information on
14:24:17 the structure soundness of the building, the moving
14:24:23 cost estimate from a mover, a house mover, and then a
14:24:28 cost analysis of rehabilitation.
14:24:33 Prior to coming to the second public hearing once

14:24:35 again we set up a site visit.
14:24:37 All the commissioners went to the site.
14:24:38 The house was open once again.
14:24:39 They went inside, reviewed the property.
14:24:42 At the second public hearing, January 15th, 2008,
14:24:45 at that time, the applicant did bring the proper
14:24:50 information that the board requested, and they brought
14:24:52 a professional on their behalf.
14:24:58 Motion that's in your transcript on page 44 and 45 was
14:25:01 denied.
14:25:01 The vote was 4 to 3 to 1.
14:25:05 The motion reads as follows: To deny the certificate
14:25:09 of appropriateness to demolish the 08-01 for property
14:25:13 located at 1503 third Avenue because did it not meet
14:25:16 chapter 27-190 specifically, the structure is a
14:25:20 contributing structure in the local district and
14:25:23 believed it is economically feasible to rehabilitate
14:25:25 the structure.
14:25:31 During the hearing and when they were making the
14:25:32 motion, out of the 13 criteria questions that I stated
14:25:37 earlier the board felt that number 4 and number 5 were
14:25:41 not met.

14:25:42 Number 4 was submitted into the record by the
14:25:48 applicant for the rehabilitation costs of the
14:25:51 structure.
14:25:51 The structure is 1,000 square foot at best.
14:25:55 There were different numbers thrown around but it came
14:25:58 through right around 1,000.
14:26:00 The bottom line to rehabilitate the structure was
14:26:03 245,880.
14:26:05 The board felt that was in excess.
14:26:07 Also, the question, item number 5 on the criteria
14:26:11 question, the amount paid for the property at the time
14:26:13 of purchase, the applicant stated into the record that
14:26:16 they paid $125,000 for the house, and the board felt
14:26:20 that that was a high price, and intention of the
14:26:24 structure was not in the mind of the owner when they
14:26:28 bought that.
14:26:29 They had a different motive for the property.
14:26:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I would like to ask a question.
14:26:39 This is the first time that I have seen anyone in
14:26:43 government question what somebody paid for an item.
14:26:46 And I'm not speaking to you.
14:26:48 But in horse trading or selling a house or buying an

14:26:53 automobile, the purchase price is really between the
14:26:56 seller and the buyer.
14:26:58 So we are going to start now saying who paid what for
14:27:02 when, how and where, maybe they are overpaid, I don't
14:27:05 know.
14:27:06 But if I remember reading the context, there was an
14:27:09 elderly gentleman there living, there was something
14:27:12 about somebody else living there who was down in the
14:27:16 dumps and so forth and so on, and for the reasons they
14:27:19 gave, they paid 175,000, either buy the house and get
14:27:23 rid of the individual that was living there with the
14:27:28 owner, and maybe they did overpay.
14:27:30 But you know what?
14:27:33 I would say a lot of people overpaid, why we have the
14:27:38 economic problem we have today in housing.
14:27:39 They overpaid.
14:27:40 Then they have didn't have the financial where-to-do
14:27:45 for the economic stimulus, they had to start making
14:27:48 payment at 9%, therefore it collapsed.
14:27:50 So if I understand way read, I believe I do, and I did
14:27:57 go visit the structure.
14:27:58 I was there the other day and I took a snapshot off of

14:28:01 it.
14:28:01 We forgot to say the shed next to it is leaning more
14:28:04 than the tower of Pisa.
14:28:07 It's leaning way out.
14:28:08 There's extensive damage to the house.
14:28:10 I went and reviewed it myself.
14:28:13 Whether it takes 245,000 I can't tell you that.
14:28:15 But I can also tell you that the record reflected they
14:28:18 couldn't find who owned the house when the house was
14:28:20 built, it moved?
14:28:23 Was it added onto?
14:28:25 On and on and on.
14:28:26 In five seconds, I find out who lives in the house.
14:28:30 It was in 1951.
14:28:34 >>REBECCA KERT: I think I need to interrupt because I
14:28:36 need to make sure that your decision is based solely
14:28:40 on the record blow and you can't inject any new
14:28:43 evidence.
14:28:43 >> The record is here.
14:28:44 They stated they don't know who lives in the house.
14:28:46 >> I know, but when you start claiming you find out
14:28:49 who it was --

14:28:50 >> Well, it was 1951.
14:28:52 50 to 54 it says.
14:28:54 >> Anything that's not in the record can't be
14:28:57 considered --
14:28:58 >> Well, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54.
14:29:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Can you go look at the site?
14:29:06 >>GWEN MILLER: We have been over there.
14:29:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What I'm saying, I'm sorry, Mr.
14:29:13 Miranda, were you finished?
14:29:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm fine.
14:29:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We are asking asked to hear this issue
14:29:20 and generally way do, I go and visit the site.
14:29:24 I went by the site.
14:29:25 I hear from Mr. Miranda he went by the site.
14:29:27 I need to know, is that an issue you?
14:29:29 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
14:29:30 It is an issue.
14:29:31 When you are sitting in an peel you are not sitting in
14:29:34 same position as you are when you are making
14:29:35 decisions.
14:29:36 Appeal process is one in which while frustrating you
14:29:40 are stuck with the record below.

14:29:41 Any additional information that you receive in any way
14:29:45 shape or form, it's very different than it is in a
14:29:48 normal process.
14:29:49 So my recommendation is on appeal, that do you not go
14:29:54 out and visit the site.
14:29:55 My recommendation on appeal is you do not go after
14:29:58 revealing the record and finding out additional
14:30:00 information because this is a very limited nature of
14:30:02 your review.
14:30:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Chairman, I'm not taking
14:30:05 offense to that or anything else but this is the first
14:30:08 time in the five times I have been elected somebody
14:30:10 tells me I Dante go visit a site.
14:30:12 Now, I'm not talking about the record, I'm talking
14:30:14 about me.
14:30:15 I can also say that when those commissioners went to
14:30:20 review the site, and it's appealed to us, what you're
14:30:23 saying is they can go but we can't?
14:30:26 And the supreme court decision, you mean the judges
14:30:29 may not even go out and look at what the evidence is,
14:30:33 or just on the record?
14:30:35 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.

14:30:36 You are sitting as more like an appeal at judge than
14:30:39 trial judge and appellate judges would not
14:30:41 vice-president the position of being able to go out to
14:30:43 a site and reviewing that record.
14:30:47 Reviewing that site independent of what's in the
14:30:48 record.
14:30:49 They are stuck only to the pictures that are part of
14:30:50 the record.
14:30:52 That's why these appeals are very different.
14:30:54 They are pure record review.
14:30:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: May I add one step further?
14:31:00 What am I going to do since I visited the site, and
14:31:03 Mr. Scott said he visited the site.
14:31:06 Are we going to leave to the five City Council
14:31:08 members?
14:31:16 [ Laughter ]
14:31:20 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, it would be my
14:31:22 recommendation that if there had been any site visit,
14:31:28 and if there had been any ex parte communications with
14:31:31 any person involved with this matter, that you just
14:31:35 disclose it fully, and you put the appellant on notice
14:31:39 that you have that information.

14:31:40 It would also be my position that obviously you having
14:31:47 done that, that you confine your ultimate decision in
14:31:51 this appeal based on the record and the evidence that
14:31:54 you hear presented here.
14:31:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, I had no conversation with
14:32:01 anybody.
14:32:03 But I did go see the site.
14:32:07 Whenever there's a zoning issue or issue that comes I
14:32:09 have a tendency to go out and view the site.
14:32:13 Mr. Miranda, did you finish?
14:32:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just want to say the same thing
14:32:17 that you echoed.
14:32:18 I visited the site.
14:32:19 I put that on the record.
14:32:20 I have not talked to the counsel or the petitioner or
14:32:22 the commissioners or the city or the county or the
14:32:26 state, even the federal government on this.
14:32:30 >> Nobody wants to talk to you.
14:32:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Nobody wants to talk to me, that's
14:32:34 right.
14:32:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Mulhern and then Saul-Sena.
14:32:38 >>MARY MULHERN: This is a question I'm sure you can

14:32:41 answer it and I'm sure it's on the record but what
14:32:45 year did the petitioner bypass this house?
14:32:47 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: My name is John Grandoff.
14:32:50 I represent Kimmins corporation in this appeal.
14:32:52 Property was bought, purchased by Kimmins in January
14:32:55 of 19 -- of 2006.
14:32:58 >> In the record.
14:33:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, just so the record is clear,
14:33:04 are there any other disclosures that need to be made
14:33:07 before we proceed?
14:33:09 Thank you, I see none.
14:33:14 >>MARY MULHERN: Is that it, January 2006?
14:33:18 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: End of '06.
14:33:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena and councilman
14:33:26 Caetano.
14:33:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: The property owner has owned
14:33:31 property in Ybor City for a number of years.
14:33:34 I'm assuming that they understand what the Barrio
14:33:36 Latino is, and the rules about the properties.
14:33:42 Is that a correct sums?
14:33:44 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I can.
14:33:45 I'm sorry to interrupt council.

14:33:46 But I'm sure the petitioner has the full opportunity
14:33:48 to present the case, and then hold your questions.
14:33:52 If there are opportunities that have not -- questions
14:33:54 that have not been answered then that would be the
14:33:56 appropriate time to address them.
14:33:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We will do that.
14:34:01 But I thought it was a question to staff.
14:34:03 Okay.
14:34:04 Mr. Caetano.
14:34:06 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: This house stands now.
14:34:08 What do we have next to it or around it?
14:34:11 >> Before we get to that, if we have a question for
14:34:17 staff or for our attorney before we move into the
14:34:19 presentation.
14:34:21 When we get an opportunity to address that, then we
14:34:23 can raise those questions.
14:34:24 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Can the historical people answer
14:34:28 that question?
14:34:29 Not yet?
14:34:30 Okay.
14:34:36 >>> I believe no.
14:34:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Council, we really have a problem here

14:34:39 today.
14:34:40 But, anyway, we will hear from the petitioner.
14:34:45 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: My address is suite 3700 Bank of
14:34:49 America Plaza.
14:34:50 I represent Kimmins corporation.
14:34:51 I'm joined this afternoon by Mr. Joe Williams, the
14:34:55 president of Kimmins contracting, and also Mr. Jerry
14:34:58 Curts who was AIA contractor -- excuse me, AIA
14:35:05 architect who has been handled by -- hired by Kimmins
14:35:08 and handled the matter in November and January.
14:35:10 A few housekeeping matters.
14:35:12 As to the visits by you of the property while the
14:35:16 appeal is pending we have absolutely no procedural due
14:35:18 process issue with that.
14:35:20 We will waive any issue with that and have no problem
14:35:24 that that occurred, and as far as I'm concerned, it's
14:35:28 not an issue for us.
14:35:31 Going to Ms. Saul-Sena's earlier question as to the
14:35:33 standard of review, there are three issues on review.
14:35:38 Procedural due process, competent substantial evidence
14:35:40 and the essential requirements of law.
14:35:42 We have no issue with procedural due process.

14:35:45 We had a procedurally fair hearing so that's not an
14:35:49 issue.
14:35:50 We submit to you that the evidence that was considered
14:35:54 by the Barrio Latino commission in November and
14:35:57 January was competent and substantial and
14:36:00 overwhelmingly in support of the demolition of the
14:36:02 property.
14:36:04 Third, we disagree with the Barrio Latino commission.
14:36:09 We believe they departed from the essential
14:36:11 requirements of law which means that based upon this
14:36:14 competent substantial evidence, they should have
14:36:16 granted the demolition permit.
14:36:20 If they came to a fork in the road and they should
14:36:22 have granted it, instead they deny it.
14:36:25 So we are explaining to you this afternoon that the
14:36:29 evidence is overwhelming to grant the demolition
14:36:31 permit.
14:36:32 I would like to also give you two points out of the
14:36:34 code.
14:36:36 The Barrio Latino commission talked about their
14:36:38 commission's powers, and to paraphrase, the commission
14:36:42 shall have the purpose of controlling the demolition

14:36:44 of any existing buildings which demolition, in the
14:36:50 opinion of the commission, will injuriously affect the
14:36:54 quaint and distinctive character of the Ybor City
14:36:58 historic district.
14:36:59 And I'm reading from under the commission powers.
14:37:01 So you should deny a demo permit if you are the BLC,
14:37:06 if the granting of the demo permit will affect the
14:37:09 quaint or distinctive character of Ybor City.
14:37:12 I'm quoting from the code.
14:37:13 While the converse must be true.
14:37:16 If the treasure is not quaint and distinct, I urge to
14:37:20 you look at this photograph.
14:37:22 And does not contribute to the distinctive character
14:37:27 of Ybor City, then you are compelled to allow the
14:37:30 demolition because it will promote Ybor City.
14:37:33 Why?
14:37:34 Because you will be able to consider -- the BLC will
14:37:39 be able to consider a new structure which will be
14:37:43 consistent with BC.
14:37:44 LC regulation.
14:37:46 In the historic districts you cannot use them in a
14:37:48 vacuum and freeze time.

14:37:50 There is physical properties that decay over time,
14:37:54 just on a big picture.
14:37:56 That is why you have certificate of appropriateness
14:37:59 power to approve new structures.
14:38:01 So the day will come that this property will be
14:38:04 developed according to Ybor City guidelines.
14:38:07 So the code encourages you to consider whether the
14:38:10 property is trawl contributing.
14:38:12 If it's not then you should allow the demolition
14:38:14 because you are going to get a better structure in
14:38:16 return.
14:38:20 I would like to introduce Jerry Kert who is the
14:38:23 architect on the project.
14:38:25 We provided all the requirements that were detailed by
14:38:28 Mr. Villa as to the entitlement to the demolition
14:38:33 permit.
14:38:34 The core issues issue for you is economic hardship.
14:38:38 Is it economically a hardship for our client to
14:38:40 continue to maintain the structure?
14:38:42 We submit to you that it is not.
14:38:44 Jerry will take you through that test briefly.
14:38:46 You may look at the binder that we filed, and also the

14:38:49 transcript on record.
14:38:51 Joe will also provide to you some insight as the owner
14:38:54 of the property.
14:38:55 And I want you to consider, number one, Mr. Kert's
14:38:59 qualifications as an architect.
14:39:00 He understands this business of demolishing and
14:39:03 building structures.
14:39:04 And Joe is in the demolition and construction
14:39:07 business, also.
14:39:08 These two gentlemen are uniquely qualified to testify
14:39:11 at the BLC and also to speak to you this afternoon.
14:39:14 I urge you to consider that and to grant the
14:39:19 demolition permit.
14:39:20 Thank you.
14:39:24 >>> Gerry Curts, Curts, Gaines, Hall, Jones,
14:39:25 architects.
14:39:30 He asked me to get involved in this project last fall.
14:39:33 We did. We went to the BLC.
14:39:35 Part of the requirement was the architect's statement,
14:39:39 architect or engineer's statement.
14:39:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just a point of order.
14:39:44 I want to make sure I have the entire record.

14:39:49 Do we have both transcripts for this file?
14:39:53 I'm holding November 20th but it appears you were
14:39:56 back in front of the board in January.
14:40:00 The actual date of denial was January.
14:40:03 >>> That's correct.
14:40:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So we have two transcripts?
14:40:12 >> I have to verify with the clerk.
14:40:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14:40:15 Sorry.
14:40:16 Sorry, Mr. Kert.
14:40:19 >>> That's okay.
14:40:20 At the first hearing I submitted my report as per the
14:40:23 code.
14:40:23 The BLC requested in addition to that a registered
14:40:27 structural engineer come in and do another report.
14:40:30 That's part of the reasoning we were continued.
14:40:33 We did that.
14:40:34 The structural engineer is Richard Wilson of Wilson
14:40:38 structural cults, a very large structural firm.
14:40:41 With offices in Sarasota and Tampa.
14:40:44 This is a small structure and the price is ridiculous.
14:40:47 And let me tell you my opinion of why that is.

14:40:52 Although this is in the report.
14:40:54 First of all the structure has suffered significant
14:40:56 deterioration in the last year.
14:40:59 The reason for that is water intrusion.
14:41:01 The reason for that is because we have had vagrants
14:41:06 living in this building.
14:41:07 Many times I have gone over there and seen vagrants,
14:41:09 run them off.
14:41:11 Mr. Williams will testify, they put locks on the
14:41:14 doors, the vagrants locked the -- knocked the locks
14:41:18 out, knocked the windows out.
14:41:20 It's been a real problem.
14:41:21 Property has decomposed dramatically.
14:41:24 Building was also moved onto the site at some point in
14:41:27 the past.
14:41:30 When it was moved on, it was not put on a proper
14:41:32 foundation.
14:41:33 It was put on basically a concrete block and pad
14:41:35 foundations to receive the property.
14:41:40 Of course, any renovation is more than 50%, and by
14:41:44 Florida code that requires a complete compliance to
14:41:47 the current building code.

14:41:49 So we would have to rebuild the foundation with the
14:41:52 building sitting on top of it.
14:41:54 That's quite difficult and expensive.
14:41:56 We would have to rebuild all the supporting walls with
14:41:59 the roof sitting on top of it.
14:42:01 I don't know how do you that without shoring
14:42:03 everything up.
14:42:03 And the entire roof structure would have to be
14:42:06 replaced and brought up to code to meet wind loads and
14:42:09 wind sheer.
14:42:10 And this is the primary reason that the cost to
14:42:13 renovate is so ridiculously expensive.
14:42:16 It's time to rebuild a structure while the structure
14:42:19 is not demolished, it would cost significantly less to
14:42:22 tear the structure down and start all over.
14:42:24 But that's not what we are doing.
14:42:28 And the engineer's report confirmed completely with my
14:42:32 findings.
14:42:33 We also had a report that you have in your file from
14:42:36 the general contractor who looked at the project.
14:42:38 And we have all concurred, and our estimates are all
14:42:41 within a few thousand dollars of each other.

14:42:44 So even though we are all guessing but estimates are
14:42:47 all very close.
14:42:47 So unless you have some questions, that's the end of
14:42:49 my --
14:42:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
14:42:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
14:42:59 Have these estimates been done when the property was
14:43:03 initially purchased by the petitioner?
14:43:08 Would they have been the same?
14:43:09 Or does this neglect reflect upon the petitioner's
14:43:16 lack of securing the property?
14:43:18 And I think that's a really germane question, because
14:43:20 it speaks to demolition by neglect.
14:43:22 In other words, two years, was the thing open to the
14:43:25 sky to let deteriorate structure?
14:43:30 >>> Joseph Williams, president of Kimmins contracting.
14:43:33 I addressed that at the hearing, Mrs. Saul-Sena.
14:43:36 The person who owned the property before us, his mate
14:43:42 was put in a nursing home, four or five people moved
14:43:46 in, he turned it into a junk yard, the home was
14:43:49 dramatically deteriorated at the time we took it.
14:43:52 At the time we took it, we then secured it, but the

14:43:55 home continued to deteriorate between vagrants
14:43:58 breaking in, as well as the condition -- the home was
14:44:02 already destroyed before we bought it.
14:44:04 At the point we bought it, we didn't believe it could
14:44:06 ever be rebuilt.
14:44:09 We had crawled underneath it.
14:44:11 The holes were in the floors.
14:44:13 The bathrooms were destroyed.
14:44:15 The kitchen was gone.
14:44:16 These guys were basically living in it in sleeping
14:44:19 bags.
14:44:20 This fellow was 80 years old.
14:44:22 His spouse had been put in a nursing home, and what
14:44:26 income they had was going to pay for her nursing home.
14:44:29 Her Social Security was paying for her nursing home.
14:44:31 She had been the breadwinner and he was running a junk
14:44:34 yard out of: There was code violations at the time we
14:44:37 bought it that we forced him to clean up prior to our
14:44:41 taking possession, they weren't on the record.
14:44:45 We talked about them before.
14:44:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I want to make sure petitioner is --
14:44:56 is petitioner finished with the presentation?

14:44:58 Have you finished?
14:44:59 >>> I would summarize what everyone had to say.
14:45:03 Answer to your question was the first part of what I
14:45:05 had to say.
14:45:05 We purchased the property to move those folks out of
14:45:08 there.
14:45:09 As you well know, we run a school for small children,
14:45:12 and families trying to teach parenting skills as well
14:45:20 as early start and these guys were run ago junk yard
14:45:26 behind it.
14:45:26 That's the reason we bought the property.
14:45:28 We never thought it could be renovated at the time we
14:45:30 bought it.
14:45:31 It was a wreck.
14:45:32 The bathrooms were out of it.
14:45:33 The kitchen was out of it.
14:45:36 There were holes in the floor.
14:45:38 There were holes in the roof.
14:45:40 I'm sorry?
14:45:43 >> Why don't we let them finish before we ask any
14:45:45 questions.
14:45:46 >>> The summary was to the barrio very simple.

14:45:49 You don't like Mr. Curts estimate and the contractor's
14:45:54 estimate of $245,000.
14:45:56 I used 125,000.
14:45:57 I cut it in half for purposes of doing a very simple
14:46:00 financial analysis.
14:46:01 We paid 175,000 for it.
14:46:03 That makes the 600 square foot house, there is a
14:46:08 thousand square feet but 400 is not contributing.
14:46:10 There's a 600 square foot house there that was
14:46:13 built -- that was moved there in the 50s.
14:46:16 That makes it a $300,000, 600 square foot house.
14:46:20 If you spend $125,000 to renovate it and replace it,
14:46:24 that's still economically unfeasible.
14:46:26 That's a $500 per square foot house in Ybor City.
14:46:31 So I can't sell it for 300 plus thousand dollars.
14:46:34 If I try to rent it, I need $2500 a month roughly and
14:46:40 mortgage and taxes and insurance and repairs, which
14:46:43 who is going to rent a 600 square foot house for 2,000
14:46:46 to $2500 a month?
14:46:48 Economically, the house is not restorable.
14:46:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Chairman?
14:46:59 Are you done?

14:47:00 >>> That was the end of what I had.
14:47:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I was to make sure the petitioner is
14:47:04 finished with his presentation.
14:47:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is there anything you have in your
14:47:09 six minute initial presentation?
14:47:11 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: We are complete.
14:47:12 We'll answer any further questions.
14:47:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Ms. Saul-Sena and then Mr. Caetano.
14:47:16 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO:
14:47:18 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: To return to my original question,
14:47:20 Kimmins corporation has been established in Ybor for a
14:47:22 number of years.
14:47:25 You know about the barrio.
14:47:26 Now about the rule.
14:47:28 Prior to purchasing this property you must have
14:47:30 realized that this property is located within the
14:47:32 Barrio Latino, and it has certain rules.
14:47:37 So you purchased this property knowing that there are
14:47:39 certain rules to follow.
14:47:42 And it appears that you made an assumption that
14:47:45 because the house appeared to you to be in bad shape,
14:47:49 you real you would be allowed to demolish it.

14:47:52 >>> No, ma'am.
14:47:53 We didn't make an assumption.
14:47:54 We ran all the numbers.
14:47:55 We did all the work.
14:47:56 We evaluated the home in terms of what it would take
14:47:58 to renovate it.
14:47:59 And we made a determination on our own that it was not
14:48:02 economically feasible.
14:48:03 >> Did you consider that if an identified contributing
14:48:09 structure in a historic district?
14:48:10 >>> Yes, ma'am.
14:48:11 >> Did you talk to staff?
14:48:17 >>REBECCA KERT: Council, I feel this whole process is
14:48:19 very frustrating to you but it's not appropriate to
14:48:21 ask questions to get information that wasn't in the
14:48:24 record below.
14:48:27 You are not reweighing the evidence, you are not
14:48:30 looking to see whether or not they made the right
14:48:32 decision.
14:48:32 You are only looking to see if in the record below
14:48:34 there was substantial competent evidence to support
14:48:36 the underlying decision.

14:48:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Gotcha.
14:48:43 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Chairman, is it my turn?
14:48:45 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: For what it's worth, to maybe help
14:48:48 you all through your deliberation, we have no
14:48:50 neighborhood opposition.
14:48:52 We are willing to consider open questions from the
14:48:54 floor, if it will help you in your deliberation.
14:48:59 We are certainly willing to do that.
14:49:01 And we will not raise that on appeal that you ask
14:49:03 those questions.
14:49:04 I don't think --
14:49:07 Let's hear from our legal.
14:49:08 >>REBECCA KERT: I do appreciate that, but this is a
14:49:12 process that you set up.
14:49:13 And it's set up not just top provide due process to
14:49:16 petitioner but also it's the deference that you are
14:49:20 giving your board.
14:49:21 You committed to your board so you are not going to
14:49:24 reweigh the evidence, that you are going to see if
14:49:26 there's competent evidence to support their decision.
14:49:29 That's the process that you set up and it is not
14:49:31 appropriate to change it right now.

14:49:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: councilman Caetano.
14:49:37 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I'm surprised the city didn't
14:49:40 attempt to remove this building themselves.
14:49:41 I wouldn't want it in my neighborhood.
14:49:43 And the Barrio Latino, why didn't they go to the
14:49:46 courts and get this building taken down?
14:49:48 It's disgraceful.
14:49:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern.
14:49:56 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
14:49:57 I know this is in the record, too, and you probably
14:49:59 already said it, but how much did you pay for that?
14:50:02 >>> The land and the house, 175,000.
14:50:04 >> End of 2006.
14:50:07 >>> Right.
14:50:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions from council?
14:50:12 All right.
14:50:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I would like to go on the record on
14:50:17 page 27, there was a statement made by commissioners
14:50:20 stating that this house was a victim, because many
14:50:23 years ago, the City of Tampa had heavy industrial use
14:50:29 in Ybor City.
14:50:30 Well, I have to agree we've that.

14:50:32 But it was not a victim.
14:50:33 Ybor City didn't need any transportation, they didn't
14:50:37 need anything from anyone, because you live right next
14:50:40 door to where you work.
14:50:41 So the cigar factory, are we saying that all house as
14:50:45 round it were victims?
14:50:45 The box factory are all victims?
14:50:48 The Fish Company right next door, were they victims?
14:50:54 The factories that were going to go south sometime,
14:50:59 maybe go to heaven, were they victims?
14:51:01 Everything that was done in Ybor City you didn't have
14:51:03 to get a car.
14:51:05 You could walk to work.
14:51:06 You could walk to the movies.
14:51:08 You could walk to the playgrounds.
14:51:11 We had foot power.
14:51:13 Now we have too much brain power.
14:51:15 So what we are saying here, I agree with the record,
14:51:19 but there were no victims.
14:51:21 There was a great life in Ybor City and everybody
14:51:23 lived very peacefully.
14:51:26 On item 34, on page 34, the record seems to lengthen

14:51:34 itself by saying, well, if this goes, Kimmins owns all
14:51:38 the property.
14:51:40 Who is presenting the case?
14:51:42 Kimmins.
14:51:43 They already own all the property.
14:51:46 For the record, I don't quite understand the logic
14:51:50 between some of the questions, because I lived in Ybor
14:51:53 City for many years.
14:51:55 And I wish I was back in Ybor City the way it was in
14:51:57 the 1950s and 60s, but I can't turn the clock
14:52:02 back.
14:52:02 I also had curls then.
14:52:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry.
14:52:10 I just want to ask council, this will be the
14:52:13 appropriate point to ask questions, but I would ask
14:52:15 that if council does have any decisions or conclusions
14:52:19 to make that you listen to the opportunity of those in
14:52:21 opposition to this appeal so that you would be able to
14:52:24 formulate your position after hearing all the
14:52:26 evidence.
14:52:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Dingfelder.
14:52:29 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I was going to ask if there were

14:52:32 other folks of record who were going to participate in
14:52:34 this.
14:52:34 There are?
14:52:41 >>REBECCA KERT: This was no one else at the hearing.
14:52:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
14:52:47 Mr. Williams or staff, you guys have reviewed this
14:52:50 record extensively.
14:52:52 We have reviewed it as best we can.
14:52:54 But is there any way in the record already that speaks
14:52:57 to the fact that the D.O.T. and the city invested 200
14:53:02 to $250,000 on the casitas that we rehabbed and moved
14:53:06 north of the interstate in the last couple of years?
14:53:09 Did that come out in this record?
14:53:15 >>> Yes.
14:53:17 A major point --
14:53:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let me hear from staff because
14:53:20 you're a little biased.
14:53:22 >>> You wanted me to do it.
14:53:23 >> That came up at one of the hearings and the
14:53:25 discussion was that the money that was used to fund
14:53:28 those projects they had unlimited funds, to have an
14:53:33 individual come and do that, it might be overbearing.

14:53:37 >> But the bottom line is -- and I don't want to
14:53:42 create a record that's not there -- but the bottom
14:53:44 line is, there was discussion, because we toured some
14:53:47 of those little casitas that some of the people have
14:53:50 Donna wonderful job on the D.O.T., some individuals,
14:53:55 but in some cases I was absolutely flabbergasted by
14:53:57 the fact that there were these little tiny casitas
14:54:00 less than a thousand square feet and the federal
14:54:02 government had spent 200, $250,000 to rehab them, and
14:54:08 some of them obviously, I saw the before and after
14:54:11 pictures, some of them were weren't in bad a condition
14:54:15 as these.
14:54:15 They took $250,000 to get them up to speed and then
14:54:20 sold them as a government for like 150.
14:54:23 That's fuzzy math.
14:54:24 But anyway, I just want to make sure that that was on
14:54:26 the record, because to me, that was very telling.
14:54:30 Okay.
14:54:31 And since there's in a other place to testify I am
14:54:34 going to go ahead and speak to this.
14:54:35 And I'm done if you want.
14:54:38 But to me, that is very telling, okay.

14:54:40 Because at the end of the day I don't care if it's if
14:54:42 T federal government spending the money or the private
14:54:44 individual spending the money.
14:54:46 Bottom line is, is that the kind of money it takes to
14:54:49 rehab these structures that are virtually falling
14:54:51 apart around you?
14:54:52 Okay.
14:54:53 And whether or not it's $150,000 or 200 or $250,000,
14:54:58 at the end of the day, Mr. Williams would have ended
14:55:00 up with a structure that he had invested 300 or more
14:55:07 thousand dollars into, okay, which is completely
14:55:10 economically infeasible to then turn around and say
14:55:13 you are going to rent it or sell it at 600 square
14:55:15 feet.
14:55:16 It doesn't make any sense.
14:55:17 I'm reading the -- I have a lot of respect for the
14:55:20 folks who are on the BLC that day.
14:55:23 Many of them are my friends.
14:55:24 But Mr. Marlow who I have known for 20-plus years said
14:55:29 on page 40, he said, I didn't have the opportunity to
14:55:32 see the house unfortunately but it strikes me that
14:55:34 they have met the burden of economic hardship which I

14:55:36 think is the criteria we have to look at here.
14:55:38 I don't think this house can be renovated or resold or
14:55:41 rented for any kind of -- and I would agree in the
14:55:45 context of the neighborhood, if there's any doubt that
14:55:47 sort of pushes it out of my mind.
14:55:49 I think that's the bottom line.
14:55:51 I think Mr. Marlow says it best.
14:55:54 Unfortunately he lost that vote but I think he put it
14:55:56 best.
14:55:56 In this case, you have got a little crumbling 600
14:56:00 square foot casita that also looks like it's been
14:56:05 bastardized a little bit, and you can't rehab it for
14:56:08 less than 150, $200,000, and it's economically
14:56:13 unfeasible.
14:56:13 So, you know, with all due respect to the BLC, that's
14:56:16 where my vote is going to go.
14:56:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, let me understand where we need
14:56:22 to be here.
14:56:23 Now, do we need to have rebuttal testimony coming from
14:56:27 the petitioner?
14:56:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If he wishes he does have an
14:56:31 additional five minutes if he wishes to take it.

14:56:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I want to make sure we are following
14:56:34 the process, and --
14:56:39 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Just briefly to answer Mrs.
14:56:41 Saul-Sena's question about certain rules that we are
14:56:44 on notice of, when we come into purchase a property in
14:56:47 the BLC, those rules also include the economic
14:56:50 hardship test which permits demolition.
14:56:53 There will be and there has to be demolition in Ybor
14:56:57 City if it is going to flourish, and we have met that
14:57:00 test.
14:57:00 Thank you very much.
14:57:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So that concludes your presentation to
14:57:09 council, is that right? Do we have any other
14:57:11 witnesses?
14:57:11 No other witnesses.
14:57:12 Okay.
14:57:16 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Close the hearing?
14:57:18 >> Not yet.
14:57:18 Councilwoman Mulhern, then councilman Miranda.
14:57:22 >>MARY MULHERN: I need a definition, maybe from you,
14:57:26 Ms. Kert.
14:57:27 What is economic feasibility?

14:57:29 What does that mean?
14:57:30 >>REBECCA KERT: Economic hardship is defined by the
14:57:35 code as whether or not the property can be put to
14:57:40 beneficial use without the approval of the demolition
14:57:42 application.
14:57:43 And then it lists a number of criteria in the staff
14:57:45 report that are from your code that you can look at to
14:57:49 make that determination.
14:57:50 >> And that's the 1 through 13?
14:57:52 >>> Yes, that's correct.
14:57:57 >> I guess my question is, it's not the historic
14:58:05 structure, and it's not going to be -- doesn't look
14:58:08 like it would pay for itself to renovate it at this
14:58:13 point in time, but is that a hardship if the owner --
14:58:23 you know, we are talking about a big company that has
14:58:26 money to do this, though they may not be able to make
14:58:31 a profit of it.
14:58:32 Do you have to be able to make a profit or break
14:58:35 everyone?
14:58:35 That was my question, about what economic feasibility
14:58:39 means.
14:58:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I don't think you can consider --

14:58:42 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, this is not a subjective
14:58:47 test.
14:58:47 You should not vice-president to look at how deep the
14:58:50 pockets are of the person who is bringing the
14:58:52 petition.
14:58:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Right.
14:58:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It should be an objective test that
14:58:54 should apply equally and fairly to everybody.
14:59:01 >>> What was submitted into the record --
14:59:03 In other words, could you afford $420,000?
14:59:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The reasonable -- anybody.
14:59:13 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm fine with it.
14:59:18 Okay.
14:59:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I'm sorry, I shouldn't interrupt you.
14:59:21 Well, Mr. Miranda is next.
14:59:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
14:59:24 I lost my thought there for a second.
14:59:27 I agree with our colleague Mr. Dingfelder on the
14:59:31 premise of this case.
14:59:33 But someone is to blame.
14:59:38 The City of Tampa must have been in a coma to let a
14:59:44 junkyard be operated just to the east of this house,

14:59:47 to let this house, for whatever, one year, two years,
14:59:51 five years, ten years, deteriorate to this here, and
14:59:55 if we do have the expanded boundaries, and I know we
15:00:00 do, do we have a list of homes and what condition they
15:00:03 are so this doesn't continue to happen?
15:00:05 I don't know what we have.
15:00:06 But if we take these cases if we do them one by one,
15:00:10 at the end you are going to have no contributing
15:00:12 structure because all going to be in the same
15:00:16 predicament this one is in.
15:00:17 So I don't know what we have, if we have an index or
15:00:20 file or something now.
15:00:22 I know computers are so great, they don't work well.
15:00:26 The eye, the human eye and the common sense of the
15:00:30 individual that goes out does.
15:00:32 I don't want just a computer report telling.
15:00:34 I want individuals to go out and look at them and make
15:00:36 sure they are in the guidelines, make sure they are in
15:00:38 the district, make sure what the conditions they are
15:00:40 in.
15:00:42 If they are rental properties you still have the right
15:00:43 to do that under the rental agreement that we have.

15:00:46 But I'm perplexed that the city has let this happen to
15:00:50 this degree, and that's on the record.
15:00:53 That was on the record.
15:00:55 It talked about code enforcement.
15:00:56 It talked about other things.
15:00:58 Way did not see on the record, I did see the
15:01:00 Department of Transportation.
15:01:02 Maybe I didn't see the whole record, but I didn't see
15:01:04 the cost of moving this house on the record.
15:01:09 The cost to the Department of Transportation I'm not
15:01:13 looking for debate.
15:01:15 But what I'm saying is I don't know what the cost S.i
15:01:19 know we moved a lot of houses like Mr. Dingfelder said
15:01:22 and we did the right thing but at some point in time
15:01:24 that well runs dry.
15:01:26 And right now, it's just a little wet but not dry.
15:01:33 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15:01:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Other questions?
15:01:37 >> Move to close.
15:01:38 >> Second.
15:01:38 (Motion carried).
15:01:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What's council's desire?

15:01:43 Mr. Dingfelder?
15:01:48 Mr. Dingfelder.
15:01:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15:01:53 With all due respect to my good friend on the Barrio
15:01:56 Latino commission, and they all put in long hard hours
15:02:01 in all of these matters, I am going to move to reverse
15:02:04 their decision.
15:02:05 I believe that the petitioner presented competent
15:02:08 substantial evidence to the board below, to the barrio
15:02:15 below, and if that's adequate for my motion, then that
15:02:22 would be my motion.
15:02:23 If council wishes me to elaborate, then I would be
15:02:27 glad to elaborate.
15:02:29 But I believe in reviewing the record, we have seen
15:02:31 competent, substantial evidence to support a reversal
15:02:36 in this case.
15:02:38 And I'll just wait for Ms. Kert to see if she believes
15:02:41 there's anything else necessary.
15:02:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Dingfelder, I will not support
15:02:49 the motion because I feel that the petitioner knew
15:02:54 that Ybor City has protection under the Barrio Latino
15:02:58 commission, that the existing structure was a

15:03:01 contributing structure, that if they chose to purchase
15:03:05 this, they had to understand that there -- that
15:03:11 possibly they would be allowed to demolish it but
15:03:14 possibly it would be seen as a contributing structure
15:03:16 that has already been identified in the context of an
15:03:20 historic district.
15:03:21 The proper thing for them to have done would be to not
15:03:27 purchase the structure.
15:03:29 If their intent was to demolish it, to not it until
15:03:32 they found out that they would be allowed to demolish
15:03:35 it, or to secure it according to the Secretary of
15:03:38 Interior standards, with the idea that they might not
15:03:42 be allowed to demolish it but perhaps they would be
15:03:44 required to refurbish it, in which case they might
15:03:47 have rethought their purchase price.
15:03:49 I feel that the burden belongs on the petitioner,
15:03:53 knowing that the Barrio Latino protects Ybor City, and
15:03:57 knowing this was an identified contributing structure,
15:04:00 and I certainly hope that this will not be an
15:04:05 indication of rewarding people for contributing to
15:04:10 demolition by neglect in the future.
15:04:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I respond since it was directed

15:04:18 at me?
15:04:19 >> Go ahead.
15:04:19 Then councilman Mulhern.
15:04:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mrs. Saul-Sena, you and I agree on
15:04:24 many, many things but I think in this case if you look
15:04:26 at the history of this structure it was going nowhere
15:04:29 but down.
15:04:29 So if they hadn't purchased it, in a more would have
15:04:33 happened.
15:04:33 It would have continued -- it would have fallen down
15:04:36 of its own volition without anybody even pulling a
15:04:39 demolition permit, or the vagrants would have got it
15:04:42 or it would have been torched by the vagrants, you
15:04:44 know.
15:04:44 We know that happens in Ybor City, too.
15:04:46 So this to me, they took the high road.
15:04:52 They bought it.
15:04:53 They came in through the process.
15:04:57 And they have done it the right way.
15:04:58 And now through many -- almost a year I guess of this
15:05:02 process, I think the evidence is such that the
15:05:06 investment would have just been too massive for this

15:05:09 little 600 square foot property.
15:05:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mary Mulhern.
15:05:14 >>MARY MULHERN: This is a tough one, because I agree
15:05:18 with Linda that the worst thing about it is we
15:05:23 overturn the Barrio Latino's decision is, we are kind
15:05:27 of setting a precedent.
15:05:29 But if you want to buy a rundown historic structure,
15:05:32 you can probably tear it down.
15:05:34 This is obviously -- it looks from this picture that
15:05:38 it's in really bad shape.
15:05:39 And the other problem I'm having deciding is that this
15:05:46 is what we have entrusted the Barrio Latino to do and
15:05:49 they are the one that is care about and live in and
15:05:52 work in this neighborhood, and they are trying to do
15:05:54 their job to keep that character.
15:05:56 So this is really difficult.
15:06:05 I don't know -- we have already closed the public
15:06:07 hearing.
15:06:07 So, yeah, it just tough.
15:06:11 I'm going to wait till the last minute when I decide
15:06:13 to vote so we keep talking.
15:06:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, we are going to vote in a

15:06:17 second.
15:06:18 And I will say and then call for the vote, one is, I
15:06:21 agree with Mr. Miranda and councilman Dingfelder on
15:06:24 this.
15:06:24 But, I mean, this is terrible to have allowed this
15:06:29 house to get to this position the way it is now, in
15:06:33 any neighborhood.
15:06:35 That's number one.
15:06:36 Number two, councilwoman, we have to judge every case
15:06:43 that comes before us on its merit and on the record.
15:06:46 We cannot say the next case we will have coming before
15:06:49 us, and we have got to do the same thing.
15:06:51 I might vote differently next time.
15:06:53 It all depends on the evidence.
15:06:55 That's what's before us.
15:06:56 And thirdly, we are the appellate body. This is the
15:07:01 process that we have set up.
15:07:02 And of course here in America we have that kind of
15:07:06 system where it goes to the trial court and then the
15:07:10 Court of Appeals, and the state Supreme Court, and the
15:07:13 U.S. Supreme Court.
15:07:14 So we are it to make that decision.

15:07:21 So given the background material, given the
15:07:24 presentation, I am going to support the motion that is
15:07:26 on the floor. This is no reflection, however, on the
15:07:30 Barrio Latino.
15:07:31 They were doing their job.
15:07:32 They voted based on how they saw and we vote based on
15:07:39 the evidence that's before us so that's not taking
15:07:41 anything away from them.
15:07:42 With that being said, I have a motion.
15:07:47 To grant the petition -- reversing the decision of the
15:07:52 lower court, or the Barrio Latino.
15:07:57 That's the motion on the floor.
15:07:59 Okay.
15:07:59 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
15:08:01 Opposes?
15:08:02 >>THE CLERK: Saul-Sena and Mulhern voting no.
15:08:08 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to send
15:08:10 these photographs to Jake Slater, our new director of
15:08:13 code enforcement with an encouragement that we allow
15:08:16 no more demolition by neglect in Ybor.
15:08:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
15:08:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I have a motion.

15:08:23 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
15:08:25 Opposes same thing.
15:08:26 So moved and ordered.
15:08:28 Okay.
15:08:28 Next item.
15:08:29 93.
15:08:31 >> Move to open.
15:08:32 >> Second.
15:08:33 (Motion carried)
15:08:41 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: The house would have qualified
15:08:42 for "Paint Your Heart Out," huh?
15:08:46 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
15:08:48 Case WZ 08-108, Yogi Krupa, Inc., requesting a 2(COP)
15:08:57 railroad for beer and wine sales in conjunction with a
15:08:59 restaurant.
15:09:00 The restaurant contains approximately 5,891 square
15:09:05 feet.
15:09:05 There are five wet zoned establishments within a
15:09:08 thousand feet, in the RS-60 zoning district within a
15:09:11 thousand feet.
15:09:12 No institutional uses.
15:09:17 For those of you that are familiar with the area, this

15:09:20 is Busch Gardens immediately to the east.
15:09:22 This is the steak house.
15:09:25 Before it was Morrison's buffet now.
15:09:28 Directly across the street is Taco Bell, 30th and
15:09:32 Busch Boulevard.
15:09:33 This is the footprint of the structure.
15:09:41 There were no objections in the staff report.
15:09:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Officer Miller.
15:09:52 >> Officer Don Miller City of Tampa police department.
15:09:54 I have been sworn.
15:09:55 City of Tampa has in a objection to this wet zone.
15:09:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Petitioner?
15:10:03 Joseph Diaz, 2522 West Kennedy Boulevard, and I have
15:10:07 been sworn.
15:10:11 Mr. Chairman, this location is at the northwest corner
15:10:15 of Busch Boulevard and 30th street.
15:10:18 In the presentation she alluded -- you may recall this
15:10:23 as the oyster bar, on the corner there.
15:10:26 This property has in the past enjoyed a 4(COP-R)
15:10:30 zoning classification that existed there from about
15:10:33 1984 until 2006.
15:10:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Can I ask you to stop at this point?

15:10:40 Is there anyone here in opposition to this petition?
15:10:42 Is anyone here in opposition?
15:10:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to close.
15:10:46 >> Second.
15:10:46 (Motion carried).
15:10:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move an ordinance for first
15:10:51 reading, an ordinance making lawful the sale of
15:10:53 beverages containing alcohol of more than 1% by weight
15:10:56 and not more than 14% by weight and wines regardless
15:10:58 of alcoholic content, beer and wine, 2(COP-R), for
15:11:01 consumption on the premises only in connection with a
15:11:03 restaurant business establishment on that certain lot,
15:11:06 plot or tract of land located at 2902 and 2920 east
15:11:10 Busch Boulevard, Tampa, Florida as more particularly
15:11:12 described in section 2 hereof waiving certain
15:11:15 restrictions as to distance based upon certain
15:11:17 findings providing for repeal of all ordinances in
15:11:20 conflict, providing an effective date.
15:11:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It's moved and seconded.
15:11:23 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
15:11:25 (Motion carried).
15:11:26 >>THE CLERK: Second reading and adoption will be on

15:11:29 June 19th at 10:00.
15:11:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: June 19th at 10 a.m.
15:11:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Move to open number 94.
15:11:35 >> Second.
15:11:35 (Motion carried).
15:11:36 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
15:11:39 Case WZ 08-110. located at 901 West Platt street, D
15:11:46 and J investments LLC requesting beer and wine sales
15:11:51 in conjunction with a restaurant that will contain
15:11:53 approximately 2900 square feet, located in a one-story
15:11:56 building of which approximately 366 square feet will
15:11:58 be located inside.
15:12:01 The establishment will have 45 feet, 25 of them --
15:12:05 seats, 25 of them inside.
15:12:07 Sale of alcohol will be incidental to the function of
15:12:10 the business.
15:12:11 There are four wet zoned locations within a thousand
15:12:14 feet, four residential uses, and four institutional
15:12:17 uses.
15:12:20 This is located at the northwest corner of Boulevard
15:12:23 and Platt.
15:12:25 I believe this is a building across the street, gas

15:12:31 station diagonal from it.
15:12:32 Just to show you photos.
15:12:43 The last I remember was an auto detail.
15:12:46 They had a detail shop there.
15:12:47 But it has been renovated.
15:12:59 There were no objections in the staff report.
15:13:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Officer Miller?
15:13:03 >> Officer Dan Miller, City of Tampa police
15:13:08 department.
15:13:08 City police department has no objections.
15:13:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Petitioner.
15:13:13 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Here on behalf of Gordon Davis who
15:13:16 is planning a new concept restaurant.
15:13:19 Essentially it's a Barb caw place, and it's a very
15:13:23 unique and new type of restaurant for barbecue itself.
15:13:28 They have gone in, and this is a perfect example of
15:13:31 retrofit, reuse and adaptive reuse.
15:13:35 They have taken this 1920s gas station and renovated
15:13:39 it into a restaurant and it's an indoor outdoor venue,
15:13:44 which should be adding to the pedestrian aspect that's
15:13:48 really needed in this area.
15:13:51 It's a great concept, and actually taking on a

15:13:54 pioneering spirit in trying to advocate this type of
15:13:58 use at this location.
15:13:59 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone here in opposition?
15:14:02 To this petition?
15:14:02 Anyone here in opposition?
15:14:04 >>GWEN MILLER: Move to close.
15:14:06 >>STEVE MICHELINI: He's providing a letter for you.
15:14:09 We would like to be received and filed and made part
15:14:12 of the record.
15:14:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor of the motion?
15:14:14 Opposes?
15:14:15 Okay.
15:14:17 Mr. Dingfelder?
15:14:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just for the record.
15:14:21 And Cathy, maybe you can clarify this.
15:14:26 This is just a procedural thing.
15:14:27 As Michelini said he's here on behalf of Gordon Davis.
15:14:32 >>> D and J investments.
15:14:36 >>: And Don Ferlita.
15:14:37 Be glad to move to approve this ordinance.
15:14:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 94.
15:14:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just for the record I happen to be

15:14:48 friends with the petitioner Don and Joanne Ferlita and
15:14:52 I wish them well.
15:14:53 Move an ordinance -- no relation -- well, probably
15:14:57 related to Rose Ferlita but -- an ordinance making
15:15:05 lawful the sale of beverages containing alcohol of
15:15:08 more than 1% by weight and not more than 14% by weight
15:15:12 and wines regardless of alcoholic content beer and
15:15:14 wine 2(COP-R) for consumption on the premises only in
15:15:17 connection with a restaurant business establishment on
15:15:19 that certain lot, plot or tract of land located at 901
15:15:23 West Platt street, Tampa, Florida as more particularly
15:15:25 described in section 2 hereof waiving certain
15:15:27 restrictions as to distance based upon certain
15:15:29 findings providing for repeal of all ordinances in
15:15:31 conflict providing an effective date.
15:15:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
15:15:35 I believe that was an old Pure station.
15:15:39 I remember buying gas there for 14 cents a gallon.
15:15:43 >>> They are using basically the same round signs and
15:15:46 using those to advertise the smoked barbecue place.
15:15:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion and second on the floor.
15:15:51 (Motion carried).

15:15:53 So moved and ordered.
15:15:54 Item number 95.
15:15:58 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
15:16:00 WZ-08-80, petitioner's name is Michael Graham.
15:16:06 Location is 5135 and 5137 North Florida Avenue.
15:16:09 They are requesting a 4(COP), beer, wine and liquor
15:16:12 sales on consumption premises as well as package
15:16:16 sales.
15:16:22 I'll read it verbatim for the most part just to make
15:16:24 sure it's clear on the record.
15:16:26 The entire development lots 19 and 20 contain 16,104
15:16:31 square feet.
15:16:32 Property itself.
15:16:33 There are two buildings and a parking area with 14
15:16:36 parking spaces on-site.
15:16:38 As a total square footage, 10,492 square feet is to be
15:16:43 wet zoned.
15:16:44 The one-story building comprises approximately 1567
15:16:48 square feet, and the two-story building associated
15:16:51 outdoor seating area comprises approximately 2,622
15:16:55 square feet.
15:16:56 According to the survey.

15:17:00 To look at the aerial.
15:17:02 The beauty salon is 5135.
15:17:04 And the restaurant is 5137 north Florida.
15:17:08 The beauty salon is the one-story and the restaurant
15:17:11 is the two-story.
15:17:14 The establishment will have a total of 64 seats, with
15:17:18 32 of them located inside.
15:17:20 The sale of alcoholic beverages will be incidental to
15:17:22 the primary function of the business is a salon and
15:17:27 restaurant according to the application.
15:17:28 There is a note to council that regarding the permits
15:17:32 that were issued for this particular site, just so you
15:17:34 know, the way it functions today, just to go through
15:17:38 the survey, as you can see by the aerial, the wet
15:17:42 zoned parcel that they are requesting is the yellow.
15:17:46 And last 19 and 20 which are the development site
15:17:49 itself go all the way back.
15:17:51 So the wet zoning, if you so choose to approve this,
15:17:54 actually goes around those buildings, covers the drive
15:17:57 aisle coming in off of Florida, as well as the area in
15:18:01 between and some of the grass areas right up to the
15:18:03 property line.

15:18:03 The parking area in the rear, with the exception of
15:18:06 the four spaces there, is outside of the wet zone
15:18:09 boundary.
15:18:13 This is the survey that demonstrates that as well.
15:18:17 That is the cut-out parcel eventually with the two
15:18:21 buildings shown.
15:18:24 We just wanted to note to council in the summary
15:18:28 itself that the permits that were used for this
15:18:32 site -- and my staff reviewed the permit documents for
15:18:35 me.
15:18:35 I have them here as far as the site plan if any
15:18:37 questions come up.
15:18:38 This is the front of the salon.
15:18:40 This is the restaurant.
15:18:41 You will notice that there is an enclosed porch area
15:18:43 which is the inside of the first floor of the
15:18:46 restaurant.
15:18:47 There is a second story, and then there's the south on
15:18:52 the outside here and there are tables, and there are
15:18:55 tables inside.
15:18:56 As permitted, it is a roof area and then T second
15:19:00 floor is storage and office.

15:19:02 They are operating with tables there.
15:19:04 So if you grant the wet zoning, I want to make it
15:19:07 clear for the record that they still need to go back
15:19:09 and permit this properly and make sure there's enough
15:19:11 parking and so on.
15:19:12 But simply granting the wet zoning allowing alcohol to
15:19:15 be sold in that area does not actually permit the
15:19:18 tables to be there today.
15:19:19 So that does need to be corrected through the
15:19:21 permitting system.
15:19:24 Just to show the backside of the site with the access.
15:19:28 This is looking north on Florida.
15:19:32 This is a business.
15:19:33 This is actually from the table area on the top of the
15:19:36 second floor looking down.
15:19:39 This is across the street.
15:19:40 This is the Seminole Heights branch of the post
15:19:43 office.
15:19:43 And this is the bakery.
15:19:48 This is looking east to the rear, the rear, homes
15:19:52 behind the parking area, the alley that separates
15:19:54 them.

15:19:58 This is the inside of the salon.
15:20:02 It's very tastefully done, very nice place.
15:20:04 And this is the area inside the first level of the
15:20:07 restaurant.
15:20:13 You will note that there are two wet zoned
15:20:15 establishments within a thousand feet.
15:20:16 One of them was recent lip done with Kathy's pizza.
15:20:20 There are two residential areas within a thousand feet
15:20:24 obviously immediately behind and there are three
15:20:25 institutional uses, three churches within a thousand
15:20:28 feet.
15:20:31 The land development comments on the last sheet, there
15:20:34 is no outside or direct objection this request.
15:20:39 It is simply a comment to council in their
15:20:41 consideration that -- and I want to go back to the
15:20:44 survey of the wet zoned area, which does wrap around
15:20:48 both buildings fairly significantly, that it does
15:20:51 include the drive isle where people drive and it was
15:20:57 really to capture the area in these buildings people
15:21:00 can go back and forth depending upon the uses in the
15:21:03 future.
15:21:03 We thought it would be best to set that back if at all

15:21:07 possible.
15:21:07 It's not an objection, obviously.
15:21:09 It's just for the record.
15:21:13 The petitioner has also submitted some conditions via
15:21:17 e-mail.
15:21:17 We did supply those in a staff report.
15:21:19 There are four conditions.
15:21:21 Our legal staff has reviewed them and has some
15:21:23 concerns with the enforceability and the way that they
15:21:25 are phrased.
15:21:26 I would like petitioner after the police officer gives
15:21:31 his presentation to say what they need to say but then
15:21:34 discuss -- any questions?
15:21:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have been in the bistro for
15:21:54 lunch, I don't know, six months ago, it's lovely, and
15:21:58 get food.
15:21:59 Would appear to me it's just natural for 2(COP-R) just
15:22:02 as a beer and wine.
15:22:04 To go with a nice, you know, nice also restaurant and
15:22:07 that sort of thing.
15:22:10 My question is this -- it says -- the reason I want to
15:22:16 include the salon is they give a complementary glass

15:22:19 of wine.
15:22:19 If it's a complimentary glass of wine for free, do
15:22:23 they need any kind of license at all?
15:22:25 Isn't that just a private, you know, transaction as
15:22:29 long as you are not selling the wine?
15:22:31 >>> As I understand, there is a consideration at some
15:22:34 point.
15:22:34 There is a sale of something and that alcohol is
15:22:36 coming with it.
15:22:37 It's not that they are just walking in off the street
15:22:39 and being given alcohol.
15:22:40 There is a sale of something else.
15:22:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The e-mail that I read, something
15:22:45 about a complimentary glass of wine.
15:22:49 >>> I would ask Ms. Kert to bet area dress that.
15:22:52 I am not able to phrase it.
15:22:58 >>REBECCA KERT: I'm not sure if I can clarify it much
15:23:03 more than she did.
15:23:04 You're right, if there's not a sale then it's not
15:23:06 regulated by your wet zoning regulation.
15:23:11 I think the concern that Kathy is expressing where
15:23:16 people pay maybe an entrance fee to a charity event,

15:23:19 that comes with alcohol.
15:23:20 That's consider a sale.
15:23:21 So if somebody is trying to get around our regulations
15:23:24 by, oh, I'm not selling, so with every sandwich you
15:23:27 get, you get a six pack, things like that, is what we
15:23:30 are trying to avoid there. May be some way to
15:23:32 distinguish between a situation where someone --
15:23:36 >> You many if they go into 7-Eleven they have Chip
15:23:39 and dip and a little glass of wine to make your stay
15:23:41 at the salon more comfortable, I wouldn't see why that
15:23:45 would be applicable.
15:23:45 >>> Yes, I would say in the situation they are
15:23:47 describing, it does not sound like that would be
15:23:49 something that would trying area wet zoning.
15:23:51 But I want to be careful because there may be a
15:23:53 certain situation where somebody could try to use that
15:23:55 but, yes, if it's a situation where it's not part and
15:23:58 parcel of what you are purchasing, somebody is
15:24:02 offering somebody a glass of wine, that's not really
15:24:04 what we are looking for.
15:24:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
15:24:08 >>> Officer Don Miller, City of Tampa police

15:24:11 department.
15:24:12 This is a very unique wet zoning.
15:24:16 Two buildings in one.
15:24:17 But after review, I went out to the site, and the
15:24:20 police department has in a objections to this wet
15:24:22 zoning.
15:24:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Petitioner?
15:24:26 >> Pete Cowell, 3304 Wyoming Circle.
15:24:35 I'll be talking for the most part for the owners,
15:24:36 Michael and Elizabeth Graham. Michael owns the
15:24:43 property and he's great at making all those wonderful
15:24:46 little pastries, but not so good at speaking in
15:24:47 public. Elizabeth works and runs the salon for the
15:24:52 most part, and she's also here today.
15:24:57 First, I want to make everybody understand that this
15:25:00 is under the old code for looking at the review.
15:25:05 Also, I am here strictly on a pro bono basis.
15:25:09 I am doing this as a courtesy to my friends.
15:25:15 This started about seven or eight years ago and these
15:25:35 two buildings were actually rescued from the widening
15:25:38 of the interstate.
15:25:41 And it was an old carriage house that went with the

15:25:47 original bungalow that went with the site.
15:25:51 When they -- and they were in pretty deplorable
15:25:55 condition and Mr. Graham literally through sweat of
15:25:58 his own brow renovated the inside of the house.
15:26:06 That's what would have been the dining room normally,
15:26:08 which is now part of the -- their main salon area.
15:26:12 And then worked on renovation of the carriage garage
15:26:18 which is now the restaurant.
15:26:22 And they landscaped and are still working on the
15:26:29 landscape for the site.
15:26:32 And you have these pictures in your file.
15:26:33 And that's the hedge that goes along the back.
15:26:41 The intent was never to wet zone the parking lots.
15:26:46 We will be amending the legal description to reflect
15:26:50 the loss of those four spaces and it was my error
15:26:55 because I didn't realize it went on the other side of
15:26:57 the drive aisle.
15:26:58 When I talked to the surveyor I thought they chopped
15:27:01 it off at that location.
15:27:02 So certainly that was never the intent.
15:27:04 It is to do the two buildings and the area between the
15:27:08 building and the green space.

15:27:10 For example, if you are coming in the afternoon for a
15:27:15 manicure and getting your hair done and you stopped at
15:27:18 the bistro before the fact and you were having a
15:27:20 wonderful glass of montrachet or something and you
15:27:26 haven't finished your glass of wine and you want to
15:27:28 walk next door with it --
15:27:30 Let me just ask the question if you don't mind.
15:27:32 Is there anyone here in opposition to this petition?
15:27:34 >>> I believe there is somebody that just had some
15:27:37 concerns.
15:27:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Continue on with the presentation
15:27:39 then.
15:27:40 >>> Thank you.
15:27:40 And you want to walk next door it with, if we only do
15:27:43 the restaurant that would not be possible.
15:27:45 In addition, yes, Ms. Graham does sometimes offer her
15:27:49 patrons a complimentary glass of wine.
15:27:52 How far if you starred on one particular type of wine
15:27:55 that you have been paying for over at the restaurant
15:27:56 and don't care to switch to whatever Ms. Graham is
15:28:00 offering as a complimentary glass of wine over at the
15:28:05 salon, this way you can still go ahead and get the

15:28:07 glass of whatever you have got from the restaurant and
15:28:10 have it brought over and continue that service.
15:28:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can we just cut to the chase a
15:28:17 little bit?
15:28:18 As eloquent as you are, I think it's getting a little
15:28:21 late.
15:28:23 And you and I are old friends so I can say that.
15:28:25 >>> All right.
15:28:26 >> he did the work for the city for 20-some years and
15:28:35 did a great job as a staff person and he knows what
15:28:37 he's talking about which is really where my questions
15:28:40 come from.
15:28:41 If you take it down to just the red box and don't
15:28:46 include the parking lot that's fine but at the end of
15:28:48 the day if it's 4(COP) --
15:28:50 >>> It's 4(COP) incidental.
15:28:52 It's not a straight 4-cop.
15:28:54 It's incidental.
15:28:55 We have other uses that are there on the property.
15:28:57 It is a salon.
15:28:58 It is a restaurant.
15:28:58 We are looking at a 4-cop incidental.

15:29:02 We are doing gift baskets.
15:29:04 I personally am not a wine drink sneer the ordinance
15:29:08 will specifically say that?
15:29:11 Rebecca?
15:29:12 Because what I read in the advertisement was just had
15:29:15 cop Kert considerate we don't have a category 4(COP)
15:29:18 incidental.
15:29:19 For anyone to qualify for -- for anyone to come before
15:29:22 you and ask for a waiver in the distance requirement,
15:29:25 you have to meet certain criteria.
15:29:27 One of them is that the sale of alcoholic beverages
15:29:30 will be incidental to the primary use.
15:29:31 So he is correct that, yes, the ordinance will say
15:29:35 that the sale of alcoholic beverages has to be
15:29:37 incidental to the primary use but it's not a separate
15:29:39 category, it's not a 4(COP) incidental.
15:29:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My concern is this.
15:29:44 Rebecca, don't go far.
15:29:46 My concern is this.
15:29:47 I don't have a problem with -- I know the people are
15:29:52 going to do good things and probably have half the
15:29:54 neighborhood here in support.

15:29:55 That's great.
15:29:55 My concern is if they went out of business tomorrow
15:29:58 and they sold the building, sold the property --
15:30:01 >>> Which is why we put the conditions on it that we
15:30:03 did.
15:30:03 >> Which I haven't necessarily -- that's why I am
15:30:08 saying, get to the conditions.
15:30:10 >>> We had four very specific conditions.
15:30:15 We had a specific use of -- list of uses that we would
15:30:20 allow the buildings to be, it would never be
15:30:23 convenience store because we didn't want that in the
15:30:24 neighborhood, and basically it would stay a boutique
15:30:28 or restaurant, or boutique-type uses.
15:30:31 And those were specifically called out in our
15:30:34 conditions.
15:30:39 We provided not to sell singles at all, we are going
15:30:46 to ensure that food -- if the restaurant is open and
15:30:49 serving alcohol, there would be food.
15:30:52 And to ensure that the parking would be adequate,
15:30:58 putting in additional sign, the grassed area on the
15:31:02 south side of the property is actually parking.
15:31:05 It's overflow parking.

15:31:07 And we have also made arrangements with the gentleman
15:31:10 at the cell tower next door to utilize his area in
15:31:14 front for parking.
15:31:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
15:31:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have to ask a general question.
15:31:23 (off microphone)
15:31:25 I got a letter of support, I guess, from Elizabeth
15:31:29 Graham.
15:31:30 Are they related?
15:31:31 >>> Yes.
15:31:32 Ms. Graham is his wife.
15:31:33 >>: So we have a letter of support --
15:31:40 >>> The letter of support is -- which one are you
15:31:44 looking at, the one from the Seminole Heights?
15:31:46 Or the one from --
15:31:58 She's also the president of by gosh, which is the
15:32:02 business guild for Seminole Heights.
15:32:04 They also supported the petition.
15:32:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Who owns this building here?
15:32:09 >>> Mr. Graham owns the property.
15:32:11 >> By himself?
15:32:12 >>> Yes.

15:32:13 >> There's in a other name on the title?
15:32:15 >>> Huh-uh.
15:32:18 My question for you, I don't understand -- I guess I
15:32:30 have the same question as John had, why you need a
15:32:34 package sales at a restaurant, or at a day spa.
15:32:43 >>> Well, for example, let me show you.
15:32:47 If you do that gift baskets like this,
15:32:56 Then would you need to do package sales, and they do
15:32:59 baskets.
15:33:00 >> The spa does the basket?
15:33:02 >>> Uh-huh.
15:33:03 Gift baskets which usually has a gift certificate
15:33:05 included as well as like lotions and body oils and
15:33:12 creams and Lykes things like that.
15:33:14 The other part of that is -- oh, and as part of our
15:33:18 conditions, there is no hard liquor being sold for
15:33:21 package.
15:33:21 It would only be wines and that kind of consideration.
15:33:26 Or if you are buying --
15:33:35 >>MARY MULHERN: So the only reason you are doing this
15:33:37 is so you can sell gift baskets?
15:33:39 >>> Well, gift baskets or bottles of wine if somebody

15:33:42 finds something they really like.
15:33:43 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
15:33:49 Thanks.
15:33:49 >>> We will revise the legal description.
15:33:52 I'm sorry, I did not realize it included parking.
15:33:55 That was the whole point was to not include parking.
15:34:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions?
15:34:06 Question for the petitioner?
15:34:08 Okay.
15:34:08 Thank you.
15:34:09 >>> Thank you.
15:34:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We will hear from those now who want
15:34:13 to address council on this.
15:34:20 Let me suggest, maybe perhaps if those that are in
15:34:24 support, maybe want to have one spokesperson.
15:34:28 You don't have to do this but I would suggest maybe
15:34:30 have one spokes American and everybody else could
15:34:32 stand in support and be recognized in support.
15:34:44 >>> I was going to say I'm not sure -- (off
15:34:47 microphone).
15:34:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Sir, you have to speak on the record.
15:34:50 Daunt speak from the audience.

15:34:51 >>> I think a great number of people that are here
15:34:53 have brought ideas and things they wanted to say that
15:34:56 they would want to put on the record.
15:34:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: They want to put on the record?
15:34:59 >>> A great many of them do, sir.
15:35:01 I'm sorry.
15:35:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
15:35:07 >>> Tracy --
15:35:10 Has everyone been sworn in?
15:35:13 All been sworn?
15:35:16 If you have not been sworn, would you please stand up?
15:35:20 (Oath administered by Clerk).
15:35:26 >>> Tracy Loche.
15:35:31 I moved to Seminole Heights in 2001 long before the
15:35:34 Renaissance when you drive to South Tampa to go east.
15:35:42 I have been a client of the Grahams at the salon since
15:35:46 2002.
15:35:47 As Mr. Cal mentioned.
15:35:49 They saved the buildings from demolition.
15:35:51 They took great care of the preservation.
15:35:53 They won several awards including the beautification
15:35:55 award and good neighbor award.

15:35:57 Elizabeth Graham spent 18 month on the visioning
15:36:01 committee for the commercial corridor of Seminole
15:36:04 Heights, which was of no benefit to her business.
15:36:07 She did it because she's invested in the community.
15:36:11 She's a founding member by gosh.
15:36:13 Also she's currently serving as the president.
15:36:17 And they employ 17 people between their two
15:36:20 businesses.
15:36:21 I would just respectfully ask you to consider their
15:36:24 petition.
15:36:25 They are responsible business owners.
15:36:27 And I think one other thing that Keith mentioned was
15:36:32 they want to do wine testing so this is not heavy use
15:36:34 that we are talking about.
15:36:36 It would not be a deterrent to the neighborhood.
15:36:39 So thank you.
15:36:41 >> Good afternoon, council.
15:36:54 Chairman Scott.
15:36:54 Council members.
15:36:55 My name is Gary Elsworth, president of south Seminole
15:36:58 Heights civic association.
15:36:59 I live at 111 south Chelsea.

15:37:02 Just for a frame of reference, our neighborhood
15:37:04 boundary ends at the center of the line.
15:37:07 So the properties in question are actually across the
15:37:09 street.
15:37:10 But we can see them from where we are and we frequent
15:37:13 the businesses.
15:37:16 Our Board of Directors at our meeting last week agreed
15:37:18 unanimously to support the Grahams and their petition
15:37:22 for a 4(COP) as incidental as Pete described this
15:37:27 afternoon.
15:37:29 One of the things we look at -- and I don't know what
15:37:32 other people are going to get up and say -- but one of
15:37:34 the things we look at is what's going to be best for
15:37:37 the neighborhood?
15:37:37 We don't will at this as what's going to benefit me
15:37:39 because it's in my front yard, backyard, whatever, but
15:37:42 what benefits south Seminole Heights and greater
15:37:45 Seminole Heights?
15:37:46 And this is certainly these two buildings certainly
15:37:49 are tremendous assets.
15:37:52 We have all chosen at one time or another to live in
15:37:55 this urban neighborhood, this urban community.

15:37:58 With that comes traffic, people, parked cars.
15:38:06 We have spent probably six months working to take
15:38:11 structures such as this and rather than trying to cram
15:38:13 current zoning standards into those buildings we allow
15:38:15 the buildings to flourish and be used to their best
15:38:18 potential.
15:38:19 I think we need to look at this as what it's going to
15:38:22 take to help make these businesses successful.
15:38:25 Everybody in the neighborhood has said, we want
15:38:27 businesses to come in and be successful but now I
15:38:29 hear, well, we don't want to the be too successful
15:38:32 because we don't want traffic and cars.
15:38:35 That's part of the territory of living in an urban
15:38:37 village.
15:38:37 And I would encourage your support of this.
15:38:41 We put our faith in the Grahams.
15:38:44 I try not to worry about what's going to happen down
15:38:46 the road.
15:38:47 I hope that you as a council and our city
15:38:49 administration, if there's problems down the road that
15:38:51 you enforce those and that we not focus too much on
15:38:55 negative things that could happen somewhere else.

15:38:57 Thank you for your time.
15:39:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else?
15:39:11 >>> My name is Eric Holsinger, I live at 5202 North
15:39:15 Suwannee.
15:39:16 My property is directly adjacent to the parking lot of
15:39:19 the petitioner's business.
15:39:21 And what I'm asking for simply is that petitioners
15:39:26 accept a compromise for having commercial property
15:39:29 that doesn't have adequate parking and is in very
15:39:31 close proximity to the residences.
15:39:33 My house is only 100 feet from their parking lot.
15:39:36 My neighbor's houses are less than 50 feet from their
15:39:39 lot.
15:39:40 The most common comment I heard about me in particular
15:39:43 is that my house is for sale, why should I care?
15:39:48 Yes, my property is for sale.
15:39:50 I do not have it listed in MLS.
15:39:52 My hope is that one of the neighbors will buy the
15:39:55 property and continue to, with the renovations and
15:40:00 respect and consideration as I have.
15:40:04 I also have no intention of leaving the area.
15:40:07 And I have concerns still for my neighbors, for the

15:40:10 neighborhood in general, and my immediate neighbors in
15:40:12 particular.
15:40:13 Everybody has the right to sell their property as does
15:40:16 the Grahams.
15:40:17 And I think that's the particular concern to me, is
15:40:21 not so much this rosy picture that's been painted to
15:40:24 you about what their business intention is.
15:40:28 You grant this cart Blanche what is going to happen
15:40:31 after the subsequent owners.
15:40:35 I'm also concerned with the precedent that's set and
15:40:38 the resultant problems it can cause for the immediate
15:40:40 neighbors.
15:40:42 And I also don't share this view.
15:40:48 I don't seek to gain personally at the expense of
15:40:50 others.
15:40:52 But hopefully you will get give stronger consideration
15:40:55 to those lives that are affect bid this on a
15:40:57 day-to-day basis than those who come here for a few
15:41:00 hours of leisure and then return home to their quiet
15:41:03 neighborhood.
15:41:06 Due to the slope of my property, you can see that this
15:41:16 picture was taken from inside my house, lag out my

15:41:21 kitchen window, and the bakery across the street, post
15:41:27 office over here, two-story concrete building here,
15:41:31 that creates the canyon effect, or a natural
15:41:34 amphitheater because the slope comes out here.
15:41:37 These ornamental bushes here are actually trees.
15:41:41 Those are actually about ten foot above the grade of
15:41:43 the pavement.
15:41:44 That is a five-foot extension.
15:41:47 There's just no way for me to block the noise that
15:41:51 comes up there.
15:41:53 And they are in such close proximity that I can hear
15:41:56 normal conversation with the deck of my house.
15:42:01 I can hear boisterous conversation from the deck
15:42:04 inside my closed window, closed door house.
15:42:08 I haven't made an issue of it because it ends at 10:00
15:42:12 now.
15:42:12 I have no assurance that's going to be the case going
15:42:15 forward and it would certainly be an issue for me at 2
15:42:18 a.m
15:42:19 I think we should also look at what's the standard
15:42:23 that's been established for the neighborhood?
15:42:25 The bistro now closes at 10 p.m.

15:42:27 There's Kathy's which to the south of them and they
15:42:33 close at eleven at the latest and a very more business
15:42:36 is the Front Porch which is .49 miles to the north,
15:42:39 and they serve a full menu until -- can I have another
15:42:45 three minutes?
15:42:48 No.
15:42:48 You only get three minutes.
15:42:49 And actually you had three and a half.
15:42:51 >>> Okay.
15:42:52 They only serve a full menu until eleven at the
15:42:55 latest.
15:42:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Your time is up.
15:42:58 Sorry, your time is up.
15:42:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Question.
15:43:01 In a nutshell, you mentioned some noise concerns.
15:43:04 You mentioned hours of operations.
15:43:07 In a very cursory fashion, were there any other
15:43:09 specific concerns that you have?
15:43:10 >>> No.
15:43:12 I would just like the zoning to be consistent with a
15:43:14 restaurant.
15:43:16 I can't give a plausible explanation for why a beauty

15:43:20 salon would need package sales.
15:43:21 >> So you are comfortable perhaps with a 2(COP-R) on a
15:43:24 restaurant category?
15:43:25 >>> I would like them to have no package sales and
15:43:28 that they be open no later than eleven, and to resolve
15:43:33 the parking issue prior, not to say, well, we will
15:43:36 figure it out later.
15:43:37 >> Thank you.
15:43:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
15:43:41 >> Randy baron, 217 west command see Avenue.
15:43:47 I have been sworn.
15:43:48 I am here as a private citizen.
15:43:52 Not representing the association or any organization.
15:43:54 This is a wonderful thing that we are finally getting
15:43:57 some wet zoning on the bistro.
15:43:59 The concern is how much of a wet zoning, and how much
15:44:02 of the building needs to be wet zoned?
15:44:04 And how late the wet zone is going to run?
15:44:08 Clearly, Elizabeth and Michael have a great investment
15:44:11 in the neighborhood.
15:44:12 They have done a marvelous job.
15:44:14 If you haven't been in those buildings you really

15:44:17 should go.
15:44:17 They saved those buildings from the expansion.
15:44:19 And we were taught years back about wet zoning, at
15:44:24 least the bistro, for a 2(COP-R).
15:44:28 I don't really have much of an issue with you a
15:44:31 4(COP-R) or restricted on-premises consumption.
15:44:36 If someone wants a martini that's fine.
15:44:38 I have a little bit of a concern about how we are
15:44:41 going to restrict the salon.
15:44:43 Now, if the idea, if you just give at 4(COP) and then
15:44:48 down the road someone buys it and wants to convert the
15:44:51 whole thing to a restaurant that can happen at that
15:44:52 time.
15:44:53 If they want to sell gift package now then you have to
15:44:55 put the restriction to gift baskets or wine tasting or
15:45:00 whatever it is specifically.
15:45:01 Actual use limitations I think as a service business,
15:45:05 and that can actually be a laundromat.
15:45:07 So I don't know if any of have you all seen those suds
15:45:10 and buds that they open up but technically if someone
15:45:13 buys it you can open a laundromat that serves liquor.
15:45:18 So what happens for the next owner?

15:45:21 If you want to COP it, that's fine.
15:45:24 Let's make sure the restrictions are such that the
15:45:26 neighborhood can live with.
15:45:27 The other concern is the hours.
15:45:29 Right now, no one stays open past midnight in that
15:45:32 area.
15:45:35 Sangrias may stay hop open.
15:45:38 Hopefully they'll open soon but they are against the
15:45:41 interstate in Hillsborough area.
15:45:43 This is separated from a residential only by an alley.
15:45:46 This is the first one we have seen like this in a long
15:45:48 time that wants a full 4(COP).
15:45:51 We are going to get more and hopefully we do get more
15:45:53 because we are trying to attract these kinds of
15:45:55 businesses.
15:45:56 But we have to make a decision, do we want to attract
15:45:58 the kind of businesses that stay open till three or
15:46:00 the kind of businesses that stay open till midnight or
15:46:03 maybe one in the weekends?
15:46:04 So those are the concerns that I would ask council to
15:46:06 address.
15:46:08 The immediate neighbors are going to be affected but I

15:46:11 don't know how we can keep them from being affected.
15:46:13 All we can do is try to minimize the impact.
15:46:16 Thank you.
15:46:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
15:46:18 Next speaker.
15:46:22 >>> Michael McCandless.
15:46:24 I reside at 5120 North Suwannee Avenue.
15:46:28 I have been sworn.
15:46:28 My residence is directly behind the bistro.
15:46:31 I want to just sort of echo some of the other things
15:46:34 that were stated earlier.
15:46:38 I submitted e-mail for your review, some of the
15:46:43 details of my concerns. To skip to the chase and for
15:46:45 time reasons I would like to sort of hit the biggest
15:46:48 thing, which is, again, the Grahams have done a great
15:46:53 job of what they have, what can potentially go in
15:46:55 there, what abuses can go on, and the bigger thing is,
15:46:59 because there is no kind much audit processor anything
15:47:02 else it becomes the job of the neighbors to then
15:47:06 monitor and then turn into them what goes on in those
15:47:10 uses.
15:47:11 As I said it's very vague, very concerning to us that

15:47:16 there's a chance that, again, package sales with -- we
15:47:22 all know other things that can go on in spas of some
15:47:26 kind, again that's a concern.
15:47:27 So again, I don't think -- obviously the Grahams
15:47:31 aren't going to do that, but again who knows what's
15:47:33 going to happen down the road?
15:47:34 This isn't South Tampa, a lot of people want to
15:47:36 compare to the South Tampa. This is still a business
15:47:39 district especially in transition, a neighborhood
15:47:40 still in transition.
15:47:42 Again, the parking concerns, we already have an issue
15:47:45 with you people parking up the street in our yard.
15:47:48 And that's a big concern.
15:47:50 I want to also make the point that it was a 4-3 vote
15:47:58 with one distension and one person absent so it's not
15:48:01 as though they unanimously approved this as well so I
15:48:05 want to make that a part of the record as well.
15:48:07 Again, I have several things that I addressed to you
15:48:09 all in e-mail form that if you have questions on, I'll
15:48:14 be more than happy to answer them.
15:48:15 But I guess the biggest thing, the term incidental,
15:48:20 how vague is that?

15:48:21 We heard that this is critical, this wet zoning is
15:48:24 critical.
15:48:26 If it's so critical, then it doesn't seem like a -- to
15:48:26 me.
15:48:31 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Chairman, I have an exception
15:48:36 to the statement, We all know what goes on in
15:48:37 day spas.
15:48:38 I own a day spa.
15:48:40 I know what goes on in my spa.
15:48:41 It's a beauty salon, massage, and facials.
15:48:44 I take exception to that.
15:48:45 >>> I wasn't accusing -- I said other businesses call
15:48:48 with the name spa and that is what I meant to say.
15:48:50 I'm sorry.
15:48:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
15:48:57 >>> Greg Baker, I live at 208 West Hannah Avenue. A
15:49:06 point that's been brought up is the possibility of
15:49:08 restricting hours on the wet zoning.
15:49:10 This is a big concern to me.
15:49:12 Currently within a mile of bungalow bistro, there are
15:49:16 five properties that are wet zoned, five restaurants
15:49:19 that are wet zoned.

15:49:20 One of them is in fact a liquor store on top of a
15:49:22 restaurant.
15:49:23 They do not have these restrictions placed upon them.
15:49:26 They don't choose to be open past 11:00 at this point
15:49:29 in time but they are allowed to be open till 3 a.m
15:49:35 By imposing the 11 p.m. or 12:00, 1:00 time limit, my
15:49:45 ban date you are restricting hours that she could
15:49:49 possibly be open and be generating revenue.
15:49:52 Now, in interest of fairness to Michael and Elizabeth,
15:50:00 that's four hours that she could be open that other
15:50:05 businesses are allowed to.
15:50:07 Future businesses moving in are going the same factor
15:50:10 is going to have to come into play.
15:50:12 Will they be able to be open past 11:00?
15:50:17 If somebody doesn't complain about it?
15:50:20 If I were moving in as a business owner, I would weigh
15:50:25 that heavily, and honestly I would probably be looking
15:50:29 at someplace else that I wasn't going to have that
15:50:33 restriction on.
15:50:35 Thank you.
15:50:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
15:50:37 Next speaker.

15:50:39 Ma'am, are you a petitioner?
15:50:48 >>> I don't know.
15:50:49 Am I?
15:50:55 My name is Patricia Lindsey, I live over by the river.
15:51:01 I went to Hillsborough high school.
15:51:03 I graduated from so I'm used to that area.
15:51:05 I remember when I was also there was basically nothing
15:51:08 there.
15:51:09 I remember the bistro.
15:51:13 I think it's a great idea.
15:51:14 I'm all in favor of it.
15:51:17 The Grahams are wonderful people.
15:51:19 They have done a lot.
15:51:21 Elizabeth is on a few committees, as you heard.
15:51:25 I think it would be a shame if you would deny it
15:51:28 because there's a lot of great potential there.
15:51:31 If you give them a chance they will prove this.
15:51:34 It will probably be one of the greatest things did you
15:51:36 for that area.
15:51:36 Thank you.
15:51:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you very kindly.
15:51:38 Next speaker.

15:51:44 >>> Lisa Randle, an owner resident in the Seminole
15:51:48 Heights neighborhood that the bistro is in.
15:51:52 I come to support Michael and Elizabeth in their
15:51:55 desire to have less condition placed on their ability
15:52:01 to service alcohol, and that's restraints on their
15:52:04 service times.
15:52:06 I feel an independently owned quality restaurant in
15:52:06 the historical building is an asset to the
15:52:08 neighborhood.
15:52:10 And it deserves our full support.
15:52:13 And when I moved to the area a year ago, I went around
15:52:17 with a real estate agent and I specifically looked for
15:52:22 a residence that did not back up to the busy streets,
15:52:25 because I thought I didn't want to hear the traffic or
15:52:27 possible noise, and that was my choice.
15:52:31 I don't know if when you purchase a property that
15:52:34 backs up to a street that is pretty much a business
15:52:38 Avenue if you can complain about it later or worry
15:52:42 about it later, kind of like moving to the airport and
15:52:45 then complaining about the sound of airplanes.
15:52:48 So I kind of feel like it's a choice, kind of a risk
15:52:51 that you might take when you buy a property, something

15:52:53 that you have to kind of be aware of, in my opinion.
15:52:56 So, anyway, I support them, and hope that they can
15:53:00 continue with their business and flourish.
15:53:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you very much.
15:53:07 Next speaker.
15:53:09 >>> My name is Dawn Dayringer. I live at 315 west
15:53:18 Emma street.
15:53:19 I'm actually in south Seminole Heights.
15:53:21 I have lived there since 1989.
15:53:23 And I have been an active member of the civic
15:53:27 association since I moved into the neighborhood.
15:53:29 I'm currently on the Board of Directors.
15:53:32 When I first bought my home in that neighborhood, the
15:53:35 prices were low, and the realtor told me that I was
15:53:39 taking a chance, the neighborhood was either going to
15:53:42 go up or down, one or the other.
15:53:44 It was on the cusp.
15:53:47 And I took a chance.
15:53:47 It was my first time and it's probably going to be the
15:53:50 only home that I ever own in Tampa and I hope to stay
15:53:53 there until I die.
15:53:57 I've seen a lot of positive changes in the

15:53:59 neighborhood since I moved in, and every one of them
15:54:01 is thrilling.
15:54:02 And I think that we are moving in the right direction.
15:54:05 We are trying to become more of a community where
15:54:09 people are able to know their neighbors, to where
15:54:12 people are able to walk in the park, walk their dogs,
15:54:16 go to a restaurant, walk to a restaurant, and go have
15:54:19 a drink in the afternoon if you want to, or in the
15:54:22 evening.
15:54:23 And Elizabeth has done an excellent job with her
15:54:27 business.
15:54:27 I feel that she is completely committed to the
15:54:32 neighborhood, and really wouldn't ask for anything or
15:54:36 wouldn't abuse any opportunity that was given to her.
15:54:43 So I support the efforts of the bungalow bistro.
15:54:46 I hope that you all consider this very strongly, and
15:54:51 that we don't worry about what's going to happen in
15:54:53 the future so much.
15:54:55 It's going to be like the sky is falling, the sky is
15:54:58 fall.
15:54:58 We need -- our neighborhood is moving in the right
15:55:01 direction and we need to continue that momentum.

15:55:04 Thank you very much.
15:55:09 >>> Good afternoon, council.
15:55:10 My name is Jean -- I'm a 21 year resident of Seminole
15:55:14 Heights.
15:55:16 And so grateful to have these quality businesses in
15:55:20 our neighborhood. We have had nothing for so long.
15:55:22 Anyone opening a business on Florida Avenue is a
15:55:26 courageous pioneer and they have done a great job.
15:55:28 They have proven that they are committed and
15:55:31 responsible merchants in our neighborhood, to do
15:55:36 anything other than to applaud what they have done so
15:55:39 far, and wish them well, do everything we can to
15:55:42 promote their success.
15:55:45 That's what I'm really hoping you all decide to do.
15:55:48 It would be a terrible thing to have them go away, and
15:55:53 we certainly want to encourage more and more of those
15:55:55 tapes of businesses as everyone said.
15:55:58 We want to encourage them to come to our neighborhood
15:56:00 based on decisions that we make now.
15:56:03 Thank you very much.
15:56:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
15:56:07 >>> Anne Kiuber, 2705 east Hanna Avenue.

15:56:14 I have been a member -- not really a member but a
15:56:17 participant of Seminole Heights arts community, and
15:56:21 been in the community for the past ten years.
15:56:23 I feel it would be a great tribute to not only the
15:56:26 local economy but to Tampa's culture that is kind of
15:56:29 going downhill.
15:56:30 And putting restrictions on the times that these
15:56:33 businesses are open, I think, kind of puts them into a
15:56:36 box to where you can't really attract those people
15:56:38 that work at restaurants until 10 p.m., and you can't
15:56:42 enjoy these kind of venues without having to go all
15:56:45 the way to Ybor or downtown.
15:56:47 And I'm in favor of having these restaurants, having a
15:56:51 liquor license.
15:56:52 Thank you.
15:56:57 >> Erica McKenna, north Suwannee Avenue, the
15:57:02 property directly behind bungalow bistro, and day spa.
15:57:06 I just want to address another lady earlier in support
15:57:09 of this petitioner had stated, that when you buy a
15:57:14 property directly behind a business district, what do
15:57:17 you expect?
15:57:18 Well, my husband and I chose 5120 north Suwannee

15:57:22 Avenue because there was a great hair salon but
15:57:26 adjacent to our property, not a restaurant with a wet
15:57:29 zoning, with liquor.
15:57:31 We chose our home instead of a home we liked even
15:57:34 better because the home we liked even better was right
15:57:37 behind Viva La Frida, and I didn't want a full liquor
15:57:45 restaurant and music played in my backyard.
15:57:47 So we were all for living behind a day spa and hair
15:57:50 salon.
15:57:51 We are not for a restaurant with live music and who
15:57:57 knows where things are going to lead when you leave
15:58:00 things so vague.
15:58:00 And is it really compatible with the neighborhood?
15:58:04 We are within 1,000 feet of Hillsborough high school.
15:58:08 We are also very close to a performing arts school,
15:58:11 and many churches.
15:58:12 So is it really compatible with the neighborhood?
15:58:14 Thank you.
15:58:24 >> Ingrid Smith, 5605 north Suwanee Avenue.
15:58:30 Yes, I have been sworn.
15:58:31 I am just outside. 1,000 feet notification but I am
15:58:33 about three blocks away from Viva la Frida.

15:58:39 Yes, Florida Avenue is a business Avenue but the
15:58:41 nature of the businesses are changing which is great.
15:58:44 But as someone already mentioned, there is Ybor and
15:58:50 so-so but we can also learn from those trends.
15:58:53 I lived in South Howard, the transition area between
15:58:58 Swann and Kennedy back when somebody said there
15:59:00 wouldn't be any successful restaurants there.
15:59:02 It wasn't a good investment and it wasn't a great
15:59:04 place for town homes and condos.
15:59:07 So we have seen what's happened there.
15:59:09 We can learn from it.
15:59:12 3 a.m. liquor zone ago long Florida Avenue, for those,
15:59:17 historic district.
15:59:18 If you are on Suwannee you are going to be impacted by
15:59:23 them.
15:59:23 And the restaurant is great.
15:59:26 I support it.
15:59:26 And it's wonderful to have, you know, the changes that
15:59:29 we are having.
15:59:31 But just because other businesses, the wet zoning or
15:59:37 the 3 a.m., we can learn from what Tampa and other
15:59:41 areas, and be cautionary about the steps we take in

15:59:44 the future with the development of Seminole Heights.
15:59:48 We are moving in the right direction and that's great
15:59:50 and I would like for it to continue.
15:59:53 But 3 a.m. is a lot to ask for.
15:59:56 And I know that the council, before some businesses
16:00:00 along Soho addressed to the petitioner, like 11 p.m.
16:00:06 on the weak nights, Sunday through Thursday, and maybe
16:00:11 mid nature, 1 a.m. on Friday and Saturday.
16:00:19 The outdoor wet zoning, I have some concerns on, they
16:00:23 have taken away the parking lot but I can understand
16:00:26 in between the two buildings.
16:00:28 And Viva la Frida, I lived three blocks down and just
16:00:38 listen to the music that's going on.
16:00:40 They have roughly 30 to 40 seating in an outdoor pat
16:00:45 improvement the petition says 32.
16:00:49 So we are looking at, you know, outdoor impact.
16:00:55 And that's basically it.
16:00:57 But my concerns are with the hours.
16:01:00 And the trend in the other neighborhoods.
16:01:10 >> Ryan Muldowney, and think it's a great idea, the
16:01:22 restaurant.
16:01:23 I'm in great support of that.

16:01:24 A couple things today.
16:01:26 Just want to do some gift baskets and give away some
16:01:29 complimentary wine.
16:01:31 Those are taken care of.
16:01:34 Also heard people talk about let's not box them in,
16:01:37 let's let them stay until 3:00.
16:01:40 Let's not box them in.
16:01:43 Let them stay open till 3:00.
16:01:45 We are contained of getting away from sale of gift
16:01:47 baskets.
16:01:51 I can't count the number of times I've run out in the
16:01:51 middle of the night to pick up a gift basket with wine
16:01:51 in it. Yeah, I can. I've never done it.
16:01:59 And someone said, Let's not worry about what happens
16:02:04 in the future.
16:02:05 And that's a bad idea.
16:02:06 Thank you.
16:02:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Petitioner?
16:02:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: He needs to be aware when he closes
16:02:23 rebuttal that they want to speak.
16:02:25 Okay?
16:02:26 >>> PETE COWELL: Okay.

16:02:29 Noise has never been an issue up to now, certainly is
16:02:32 not going to be in the future. This is a very fine
16:02:34 establishment.
16:02:35 It's not anything we are going to bring in.
16:02:37 The hours, we would like not to be restricted.
16:02:41 The other establishments that are in the neighborhood
16:02:42 are not restricted.
16:02:44 And what is going to be the trend for every other
16:02:47 restaurant that comes in, they are going to have to
16:02:49 deal with the same restriction, or are you going to
16:02:52 emboss those restrictions on them as well?
16:02:56 We are going to sit down with the legal staff right
16:02:59 after this meeting and go through the concerns that
16:03:04 they had with the conditions that we raised on the
16:03:07 uses that we established for the use in the future.
16:03:11 Laundromat was not on the list.
16:03:14 So that need not be included.
16:03:19 There are over 200 signatures by the way in your
16:03:21 packages of other people that are in support of the
16:03:24 petition.
16:03:28 Comparing this to Howard Avenue or anything is not
16:03:30 really fair.

16:03:32 Howard was one of the four exemption areas like Ybor
16:03:35 and downtown and Channelside where you could exempt
16:03:38 distance waivers and you could do other things.
16:03:41 So those kinds of restrictions will not be in effect.
16:03:47 Or those kind of leniencies will not be in effect.
16:03:50 The orientation of the site is a bit unusual, whereas
16:03:54 most places have their parking in the front and the
16:03:56 building back against the residential.
16:03:58 This is set up so that the buildings are up front on
16:04:02 the street and it's the parking that is between them,
16:04:05 and there's also a very large hedge and a very large
16:04:07 fence that are back there separating them, plus the
16:04:10 alley before you do get to the residential.
16:04:17 Those are the issues I had.
16:04:18 If you have got any questions, I'm sure the Grahams
16:04:22 can answer them, or I will.
16:04:25 Thank you.
16:04:33 >>> Elizabeth Graham.
16:04:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: You have 2 minutes 55 seconds.
16:04:41 >>> Okay.
16:04:44 I won an award for being a good neighbor.
16:04:47 My businesses won an award.

16:04:51 I also won a beautification award.
16:04:53 I mean, we are good businesses.
16:04:55 We are good neighbors.
16:04:56 And in talking in reference to my businesses.
16:05:00 I have been in Seminole Heights for 18 years.
16:05:03 And being in that community, the neighborhood
16:05:07 expressed the exact thing we are going for.
16:05:11 They want to have wine tasting.
16:05:12 They wants to be able to buy nice bottles of wine.
16:05:19 They want to be able to do beer tasting.
16:05:22 At the salon, we do art shows, we want to be able to
16:05:28 show in those facilities as well.
16:05:33 And also, too -- I'm sorry, I'm a little nervous.
16:05:40 You know, I know that my neighbors are concerned.
16:05:43 This district like you were talking about earlier, the
16:05:48 commercial corridor is zoned CI, heavy industrial.
16:05:55 Heavy commercial.
16:05:56 So whether or not you would want to live behind it is
16:06:02 not -- it's just about what it is.
16:06:03 We actually reduced it because we want to be good
16:06:06 neighbors.
16:06:07 I just can only say that this is something that the

16:06:12 neighborhood expressed to us, and that was my
16:06:14 inspiration for developing this dream.
16:06:19 I believe property values would go up.
16:06:22 I would believe people would like to, from your
16:06:24 backyard, walk to the bakery, walk to the post office,
16:06:28 walk to get your haircut, walk to get something to
16:06:31 eat.
16:06:32 I think walk by a -- buy a gift basket, walk, buy a
16:06:37 bottle of good wine.
16:06:39 I believe these things -- we are going to be compliant
16:06:42 with what is already going on.
16:06:44 There are eight businesses right now selling alcohol
16:06:47 that do not have restrictions or conditions on them
16:06:50 for hours, or sales.
16:06:55 I want to be able to compete.
16:06:57 I want to be able to survive.
16:07:01 I have dedicated 18 years of my life to this
16:07:04 community.
16:07:04 I am going to be a good neighbor.
16:07:07 God forbid I should die and something happens to this
16:07:10 and it changes hands.
16:07:12 You know what?

16:07:14 That person should pay the penalty, not me.
16:07:16 If they don't want to comply.
16:07:18 That's why they are city codes that will -- that's why
16:07:25 there are nuisance abatements in communities.
16:07:27 That's why they put these things together.
16:07:29 I don't believe right now Seminole Heights wants that.
16:07:31 I believe what they want is what I am giving them.
16:07:35 It's upscale.
16:07:36 It's sophisticated.
16:07:40 I feel bad that I'm here with my neighbors that I care
16:07:50 for, too.
16:07:51 This is a big thing for you guys.
16:07:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you very much.
16:08:06 >> Michael Graham.
16:08:09 Bungalow bistro.
16:08:11 Not a man of many words.
16:08:12 To tell you the truth I'd rather bake.
16:08:15 But we are not out here to hurt anybody.
16:08:17 We are not trying to hurt anybody.
16:08:20 I can understand their concerns about the hours and
16:08:24 stuff.
16:08:24 But it's not nothing that -- wire not planning to stay

16:08:28 open till 3:00.
16:08:29 You know, that's not going to happen.
16:08:30 I want a little bit of a life tool and I spend a lot
16:08:33 of it there.
16:08:35 So I don't really know what else I can add to it that
16:08:38 I hope it goes through for us, and, you know,
16:08:41 everybody is happy.
16:08:43 Like I say, we don't want a conflict with anybody,
16:08:45 especially our neighbors.
16:08:47 And we are going to do the best we can with it.
16:08:50 And I don't really think anybody has anything to fare.
16:08:53 Thank you.
16:08:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We have all heard the concerns of
16:08:59 the neighborhood.
16:09:02 And I think it is our job to look at the long-term.
16:09:05 We want top look at the short term.
16:09:07 I'm sure everybody thinks you're great folks.
16:09:10 All your neighbors on both sides think you're great
16:09:12 folks.
16:09:12 But it's our job to look at the long-term because
16:09:15 these wet zonings stay with the land.
16:09:17 You and I will be long gone.

16:09:19 Wet zoning stays with the land.
16:09:21 So that's where we come from week in and week out.
16:09:24 With that said, there has been a little bit of
16:09:27 concerns expressed by your adjacent neighbor to the
16:09:29 back about noise and music.
16:09:33 Is there any music on the deck right now?
16:09:35 >>> No, sir, there's no music.
16:09:37 There's two speakers up there but there's no music
16:09:39 coming out.
16:09:40 And I can't imagine what the noise on my deck that
16:09:43 could you hear it --
16:09:44 >> Are there tables and chairs up on that deck?
16:09:47 >>> Yes, there are.
16:09:47 >> Do you anticipate a need for live music up on that
16:09:51 deck?
16:09:51 >>> No, sir.
16:09:52 >> Okay.
16:09:53 Because these are the kind of conditions that perhaps
16:09:55 we can work on together.
16:09:56 >>> Right.
16:09:57 >> And how about hours?
16:09:58 What are your current hours of operation?

16:10:01 >>> We are open till ten at night.
16:10:04 >> And what is your desire in terms of hours for the
16:10:08 bistro?
16:10:09 If you got a wet zoning.
16:10:11 >> You know, I'm going to help my husband because he
16:10:14 said we could work as a team on this H.we don't have
16:10:17 music on it.
16:10:18 Nor do our intent.
16:10:20 Had our neighborhood asked us to maybe have some light
16:10:24 music -- I don't know, I don't want to shoot myself in
16:10:27 the foot today by putting conditions on my property
16:10:31 that you, council, is going to allow in the future.
16:10:33 The only thing, if you are going to make conditions,
16:10:36 are they going to be consistent with everybody else
16:10:38 that comes as our neighbors?
16:10:41 That's what our concern is.
16:10:42 Okay.
16:10:43 As far as our hours, you know what?
16:10:47 Our hours, Kathy's Front Porch, Sangria, there is no
16:10:54 condition on it.
16:10:56 Our hours are going to be whatever the neighborhood,
16:10:58 the people will support us.

16:11:00 >> That's fine for to you say that.
16:11:02 But I have got the floor right now.
16:11:04 >>> oh, I'm sorry.
16:11:05 >> That's all right.
16:11:06 And my question was, what are your current hours?
16:11:09 And what are the hours that you desire to operate your
16:11:12 establishment?
16:11:13 As somebody noted earlier, okay, I think it was our
16:11:16 chairman, we have to look at this within the confines
16:11:18 of your property and the four corners of your
16:11:21 property, and what's going on on your property, and
16:11:24 your adjacent neighbors.
16:11:25 I'm not going to go up and down the street and compare
16:11:28 to the Kathy's and sangrias and everything else.
16:11:32 That's where I'm coming from.
16:11:33 What are your current hours?
16:11:35 Are what are the hours you desire if you are able to
16:11:38 serve --
16:11:39 >>> Okay.
16:11:39 My current hours are from 10 until 10 p.m.
16:11:45 >> Not your opening hours, just your closing hours are
16:11:48 10 p.m.

16:11:49 >>> Yes, sir.
16:11:50 >> And if you got some type of liquor what would you
16:11:52 desire for weekdays and weekends?
16:11:55 >>> I don't really know because we won't have it.
16:11:57 I would like to say possibly could be -- would be
16:12:00 compatible to the Front Porch which is close to one,
16:12:02 maybe two.
16:12:03 I don't know what Christmas holidays and New Year's
16:12:07 Eve will entail.
16:12:09 >> What days they fall on.
16:12:10 >>> Yeah.
16:12:11 Because it's Tuesday and Thursday.
16:12:14 I just want to be able to compete with the other
16:12:16 restaurants that are in my area as well.
16:12:19 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay, thank you.
16:12:22 I move to close for discussion.
16:12:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor of the motion to close.
16:12:31 (Motion carried).
16:12:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have mixed emotions on this.
16:12:35 I certainly want to help anyone who wants to open up a
16:12:38 bistro or restaurant or sandwich shop or whatever they
16:12:40 want to call it.

16:12:41 However, like Mr. Dingfelder, I have reservations
16:12:44 concerning -- and by the way, I voted in the minority
16:12:49 when we vote add few months ago to change it that
16:12:52 everybody could open till 3:00 in the restaurant.
16:12:54 I said it then you are going to create 2,000 new bars,
16:12:57 and this is an example of one of them.
16:12:59 You cannot, in my opinion -- and they did me a favor.
16:13:03 Right now, I'm going to tell you all, is they come up
16:13:07 and they don't have an hour of closing in a
16:13:09 restaurant, I'm not voting for it.
16:13:11 So that be heard today.
16:13:14 So if you have a restaurant and you want to be in the
16:13:15 neighborhood, and let me tell but Hyde Park.
16:13:18 South of Kennedy, wherever you want to call it.
16:13:21 That didn't happen like that.
16:13:23 That took 30 years to happen.
16:13:24 And I get more complaints in that neighborhood -- R,
16:13:27 and I'm sure you do, sir, Mr. Dingfelder, and some
16:13:30 other council members here, that anything else in the
16:13:32 city, you can't park, you can't move, the noise is
16:13:35 unbelievable, trash all over the place, beer bottles
16:13:38 all over the place, and I'm reluctant to start this

16:13:44 somewhere else.
16:13:45 I have nothing gains the Grahams but I am going to say
16:13:47 right now equivocally these two buildings don't even
16:13:50 have a connector.
16:13:52 There's like a breeze way or something that's not
16:13:56 connected.
16:13:57 So now you are going to carry around, who says they
16:14:01 are not going to go out on the sidewalk?
16:14:03 That's not zoned.
16:14:04 That's a right-of-way.
16:14:06 So what I'm saying is, I don't understand the whole
16:14:10 logistics of this thing.
16:14:11 And I've heard the good neighbors.
16:14:13 I don't think there's anyone totally against you.
16:14:16 I remember Mr. Baron talked about 2(COP-R).
16:14:20 But a 4(COP), that's the highest and best use.
16:14:27 On something that I don't want to start somewhere
16:14:31 where I have seen deterioration.
16:14:34 Not a value.
16:14:35 I'm not going to tell you the home values went down,
16:14:38 because it used to be people would buy anything.
16:14:41 No matter if you qualified or not.

16:14:42 But what I'm saying is now, I look at these things
16:14:46 much more carefully.
16:14:47 And I do look into the future.
16:14:50 What do we have?
16:14:51 Where are we going?
16:14:52 What's going to happen there?
16:14:53 It's a beautiful building and I commend you both for
16:14:55 certainly spending your time and efforts on there but
16:14:59 I have to have much more concrete than what I have
16:15:01 been presented, open carte blanche to stay open till
16:15:04 3:00 in the morning which is state law.
16:15:05 And a bistro.
16:15:08 Whatever you are going to sell, at 3:00 in the
16:15:10 morning?
16:15:10 I tell you what, I owned a restaurant or part of it, I
16:15:15 should say, and when they went home they were so tired
16:15:18 they went home when they finished work.
16:15:20 They didn't go out drinking.
16:15:24 I just sold at few years ago.
16:15:26 I understand.
16:15:27 It's a wild scene out there.
16:15:29 But maybe I'm not used to wild scenes.

16:15:32 But what I'm saying is, there's admiration, and
16:15:37 there's doubt in my mind.
16:15:39 I don't quite understand and grasp this thing selling
16:15:43 things that go this, that and the other, and let's go
16:15:46 to the beauty parlor and have a drink.
16:15:49 Maybe I'm not that advanced.
16:15:52 But on both sides of the aisle, in a one spoke
16:15:55 logistically against 100% of nothing here.
16:15:59 What I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, is there has been no
16:16:02 give and take.
16:16:03 This is my dream.
16:16:05 Now what?
16:16:06 Everybody has given to this community, whether you're
16:16:08 a business or not.
16:16:08 I don't care who you are.
16:16:10 You did your part.
16:16:11 But I'm saying that something here has to be worked
16:16:14 out.
16:16:15 If not I am going to vote against it.
16:16:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
16:16:18 Well, right now we are losing council and it's 4:20
16:16:21 and we still have another item on the agenda.

16:16:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I make a motion.
16:16:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We have new business.
16:16:26 And you are losing the quorum.
16:16:28 I have got a 5:00.
16:16:29 I had a 4:00.
16:16:30 We are losing you are quorum here in about another
16:16:32 five minutes.
16:16:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll be glad to make a motion just
16:16:37 to get it off the dime.
16:16:38 I'm sure you appreciate that.
16:16:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I will.
16:16:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: This is what I can support and I
16:16:43 think we heard plenty of evidence from everybody and I
16:16:45 sympathize with --
16:16:50 No, ma'am.
16:16:51 Be seated.
16:16:51 Thank you.
16:16:52 Fa your seat.
16:16:53 Thank you.
16:16:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: This is what I can support and I
16:16:56 respect Pete greatly and I don't know the Grahams at
16:16:59 all.

16:16:59 But anyway, it's a 2(COP-R) which allows to you serve
16:17:03 beer and wine in the bistro.
16:17:04 All right.
16:17:06 And the bistro only.
16:17:07 I haven't heard any great justification to translate
16:17:09 this over into the salon.
16:17:12 I think that if you want to sell, maybe you could have
16:17:15 a little package in the salon and refer people oar.
16:17:18 I don't know. But I just don't see any great need for
16:17:22 that.
16:17:23 We don't seem to have the appropriate category at this
16:17:25 time to accommodate the little wine and gift basket
16:17:29 thing.
16:17:31 I have great, great concerns about rezoning this
16:17:34 entire two building as 4(COP).
16:17:37 Because neither one of you can tell us what this is
16:17:39 going to be 30 years from now, what this is going to
16:17:42 be 20 years from now, okay?
16:17:44 Because we don't know what we are going to be doing
16:17:45 and neither do you.
16:17:46 And that's where my concern is.
16:17:48 But I would be willing to support 2(COP-R) for bistro

16:17:53 only.
16:17:54 Hours limited to 11 p.m. on regular nights and 12 p.m.
16:17:59 on Fridays and Saturdays.
16:18:01 And no electric live music on the deck.
16:18:08 I would just say no electrified loud music on the
16:18:12 deck.
16:18:12 If that's amenable to you, then you can work with
16:18:15 staff to direct those conditions, and that's something
16:18:17 I could vote for next week.
16:18:23 But short they've don't see myself supporting anything
16:18:25 on this parcel.
16:18:27 And I think you need hour limitations in sensitivity
16:18:32 to your back Dar neighbors, and I think you need some
16:18:35 noise limitations sensitive to your back door
16:18:38 neighbors.
16:18:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Do we have a second on that motion?
16:18:41 >> It's really not a motion.
16:18:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It would be a motion if the
16:18:45 petitioner would agree to accept it.
16:18:46 If not, then we see where it goes otherwise.
16:18:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay then, we have to open back up the
16:18:52 public hearing, right?

16:18:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The public hearing is still open.
16:19:03 Pete, do you want to discuss it?
16:19:05 That's where my motion would come from.
16:19:08 2(COP-R) for bistro only.
16:19:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Can we get a yes or no on that?
16:19:15 >>> If we can talk it over for a second.
16:19:17 >> Every night 12 p.m. midnight and noise limitation
16:19:22 no electric live music.
16:19:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Then we might need to continue this
16:19:26 because I definitely have to leave.
16:19:27 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It will be continued a week.
16:19:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And then I have another item to
16:19:32 present and then we have new business, council, and
16:19:34 then I have another appointment.
16:19:35 So --
16:19:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You can talk about it for a week.
16:19:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I think I agree, Mr. Dingfelder,
16:19:46 for the first time today, but I think if they continue
16:19:48 it for a week they can certainly come up and I don't
16:19:52 want the petitioner to make a hazy decision because we
16:19:56 just brought this up at the eleventh hour.
16:19:58 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The other issue.

16:20:01 The legal description needs to be revised to be
16:20:03 reduced so we do need some time.
16:20:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So we can continue without opening
16:20:10 back up for public testimony?
16:20:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, sir.
16:20:12 I move that we continue for one week.
16:20:15 Is that possible?
16:20:16 Because next week is -- two weeks?
16:20:27 Well, if we are going to vote without new hearing.
16:20:33 It went to the next meeting.
16:20:34 I don't know what council's opinion is but if we can
16:20:37 put it number one in the night meeting, this will not
16:20:39 take five minutes.
16:20:42 >>MARY MULHERN: I have a question.
16:20:43 Does the restaurant already have liquor license?
16:20:46 No liquor license?
16:20:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, just so I can be clear, if
16:20:52 that is ultimately the motion to continue with those
16:20:54 conditions, is it council's intention when it comes
16:20:58 back the only discussion will be between council and
16:21:00 the petitioner, whether that condition is agreed to,
16:21:04 and that will be communicated to staff in advance of

16:21:08 that, council will --
16:21:14 >>PETE COWELL: I don't know if that's council's final
16:21:16 word on those issues.
16:21:19 There is certainly some wiggle room in there on
16:21:22 everything, and I would like to be able to discuss it
16:21:24 with the client and then come back to council with
16:21:26 some alternate, you know, options if at all possible.
16:21:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay, then, what I will accept is that
16:21:33 we only allow coming back two weeks, whatever date it
16:21:39 is, that we allow that conversation between the
16:21:41 petitioner representative and council, with the
16:21:44 understanding of the motion that council is pretty
16:21:49 much set.
16:21:50 You can come back with an argument.
16:21:53 I don't want to open it back up to the public, you
16:21:56 know, and go through a long process if we are going to
16:22:00 continue it.
16:22:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to take
16:22:04 a vote on a 4(COP-R) and then if it loses go at
16:22:07 another vote on the same issue.
16:22:09 So you all decide what you want to do.
16:22:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Come back in a week, or two.

16:22:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And keep it in mind --
16:22:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Want to vote this up or down now?
16:22:21 >> No.
16:22:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Keep in mind if it does pass, then the
16:22:24 community will have an opportunity to come back and
16:22:26 address it.
16:22:27 Keep that in mind on second reading.
16:22:30 >>PETE COWELL: I would just as soon leave it as a
16:22:34 continuance and let it come back to you with some
16:22:36 alternate conditions that may be more in line keeping
16:22:41 with what you are asking, but where there's still some
16:22:46 room for negotiations.
16:22:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me entertain a motion to close the
16:22:50 public hearing.
16:22:51 >> You made a motion.
16:22:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Make a motion to continue the
16:22:58 public hearing for two weeks, number one, and the
16:23:00 night meeting.
16:23:01 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Which will be one week.
16:23:03 Would you be able to have the legal description within
16:23:05 one week?
16:23:06 >>PETE COWELL: Yes.

16:23:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: One week, numbero UNO.
16:23:17 They have to come back with the legal description.
16:23:19 >>> We'll modify to correct the legal description.
16:23:21 It may or may not need additional modification for the
16:23:24 conditions.
16:23:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: There's a motion on the floor.
16:23:26 There's a motion on the floor.
16:23:28 Council, want to speak to the motion?
16:23:30 Moved and second.
16:23:31 Let it be known by Aye.
16:23:33 Clerk, will you announce when it's coming back again?
16:23:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: June 12, 6 p.m.
16:23:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All right.
16:23:45 The last item on the agenda is item number 69.
16:23:50 >> 96.
16:23:52 9 or 96?
16:23:53 >>GWEN MILLER: 96.
16:23:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I'm sorry, 69.
16:23:59 69.
16:23:59 Let me pass those out.
16:24:00 This is the item --
16:24:08 Let me just say on item 69, I had this request two

16:24:20 weeks ago, going back now.
16:24:22 What I'm handing to you is a memorandum for your
16:24:26 explanation, requesting a workshop for August
16:24:30 28th.
16:24:32 Only workshops for that morning, 3-hour period,
16:24:35 dealing with the transit, transportation.
16:24:39 I have a meeting with Mr. Chiaramonte, and then Mr. Ed
16:24:49 Crawford, and going back some historic summary of what
16:24:54 happened back in -- actually 2001, and giving you the
16:25:02 fact sheet, if you don't read it, the fact sheet, and
16:25:05 giving you what the approved rail line plan was, then
16:25:10 also giving you a time line to restart the project and
16:25:15 to move forward, with the understanding that this will
16:25:17 be a workshop here again on the 28th of August and
16:25:23 moving forth from that, working with the board of
16:25:26 county commission at a future date for referendum,
16:25:29 perhaps the beginning of January of 2009.
16:25:35 All this is the subject to a workshop, okay?
16:25:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll second that.
16:25:41 August 28th at 9 a.m.
16:25:46 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor?
16:25:48 (Motion carried).

16:25:52 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to bring this up and then
16:25:54 got to run.
16:25:55 Okay.
16:25:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The other item on the affordable
16:25:57 housing is Cindy Miller done a lot of change on
16:26:02 affordable housing, Cindy Miller to do a workshop in
16:26:08 July, is it the 24th?
16:26:10 >>: I think so.
16:26:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We have one already scheduled, right?
16:26:14 On the 24th?
16:26:16 >>THE CLERK: We currently have one scheduled on July
16:26:18 2524thth at 9 a.m. and a request to set
16:26:21 another workshop.
16:26:22 >>MARY MULHERN: It's interesting because this is
16:26:25 apparently the -- no, it's the transit.
16:26:32 They want to schedule a workshop for John English, the
16:26:37 CEO of youth transit authority to come.
16:26:41 In July.
16:26:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: But would not be available in July and
16:26:50 also the Hartline, they will not be ready in July.
16:26:53 So that's why I say August.
16:26:55 Also with that, Mr. Jeff -- what's Jeff's last name?

16:27:00 Himself work with him to try to bring him in because
16:27:03 it was an excellent presentation at the transportation
16:27:05 task force, excellent resource.
16:27:08 >> That's the Holland and Knight guy?
16:27:11 >> Yes.
16:27:11 So I'm just presenting, you know.
16:27:17 So the July 24th, Cindy Miller present to us the
16:27:20 different change on affordable housing.
16:27:23 So I move that as well.
16:27:26 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor of the motion say Aye.
16:27:28 Opposed?
16:27:29 (Motion carried).
16:27:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Following that one there.
16:27:34 That's at nine, right?
16:27:35 And that will go for how long?
16:27:36 >>THE CLERK: That's the workshop, legal department,
16:27:46 parks and --
16:27:52 For 9:30?
16:27:54 Let's set it for 9:30 then.
16:27:56 That should take about an hour for Mrs. Miller, at
16:27:59 9:30 to 10:30.
16:28:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: One general comment.

16:28:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Those are items 69.
16:28:11 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Don't you want to do council
16:28:13 reports?
16:28:14 You have to wait one second.
16:28:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So we passed that last motion?
16:28:17 >>MARY MULHERN: All I have is to schedule the workshop
16:28:20 so let me start.
16:28:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: New business.
16:28:22 Now we go to new business.
16:28:24 Go ahead.
16:28:25 >>MARY MULHERN: Asking to schedule a workshop on
16:28:27 Thursday, July 24th, with John Inglish, with an I,
16:28:33 from the Utah Transit Authority.
16:28:40 11.
16:28:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
16:28:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
16:28:43 All in favor let it be known by Aye.
16:28:45 Opposes same thing.
16:28:46 Okay.
16:28:47 Anything else?
16:28:49 >>MARY MULHERN: That's it.
16:28:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Caetano?

16:28:52 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Nothing.
16:28:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena gave you hers.
16:29:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mrs. Saul-Sena had to leave for a
16:29:05 doctor's appointment and she apologizes but she asks
16:29:07 that council take up this issue that she became aware
16:29:11 of a proposed parking structure to be built by the
16:29:13 Port Authori