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TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, July 24, 2008
9:00 a.m. work session

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08:59:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Tampa City Council will now come to
09:05:36 order.
09:05:36 At this time we yield to councilman Dingfelder.
09:05:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
09:05:43 This morning we have Sherri silk, the Executive
09:05:45 Director of the Tampa Bay Humane Society.
09:05:48 Before Sherri gives the invocation I want to give a
09:05:50 little plug for this Saturday on channel 8, WFLA news,
09:05:59 they are having a pet telethon for the Humane Society

09:06:01 to help save our homeless animals in our community.
09:06:05 And I think we have done this for a couple of years
09:06:08 now?
09:06:09 >>> This is our ninth.
09:06:11 >> And Sherri has actually invited me to be on the
09:06:15 telethon as well so we will be pitching for the
09:06:17 animals this Saturday from one till six FM so
09:06:21 everybody tune in to channel 8 and help the animals.
09:06:24 Sherri came to us from Michigan, and she's been in
09:06:28 animal welfare for 27 years.
09:06:30 She's appeared on animal planet, Detroit animal, she's
09:06:35 married with two children, a Doberman and several
09:06:38 cats.
09:06:38 And we welcome Sherri to give us the invocation
09:06:41 followed by the pledge of allegiance if you will
09:06:43 please stand.
09:06:46 >> Sherri: Good morning.
09:06:48 Thank you for having me.
09:06:49 Let us bow our heads.
09:06:50 During these hard times we pray together for guidance
09:06:52 and support to mover as a nation towards stability and
09:06:55 prosperity.

09:06:58 To those impoverished in dire need and with those with
09:07:02 wealth and abundance to increase our charity and
09:07:04 support.
09:07:05 Help us give freely of ourselves in a way that makes a
09:07:07 difference to our families, to our town and to our
09:07:10 nation and let us not forget the troops serving our
09:07:13 country.
09:07:13 We ask for protection for them as well as their
09:07:15 families.
09:07:16 Finally in the words of Albert Schweitzer, hear my
09:07:19 humble prayer for my friends the animals especially
09:07:23 any who are hunted or lost or deserted or frightened
09:07:27 or hungry for all that must be put to sleep.
09:07:30 Wen truth to them in pity a heart of compassion and
09:07:35 gentle hands and kindly words.
09:07:37 Make us true friends to animals and so to share the
09:07:42 blessing of the merciful.
09:07:43 Amen.
09:07:47 (Pledge of Allegiance)
09:07:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thanks, Sherri.
09:08:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
09:08:02 Roll call.

09:08:05 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:08:07 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:08:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:08:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:08:11 I have a letter for the record, a memorandum from
09:08:13 councilman Charlie Miranda.
09:08:15 Please be advised I will be out of town on July
09:08:18 21st through July 31st, 2008.
09:08:22 Will not be in attendance on July 24 and 31st.
09:08:27 Reason for my absence is read into the record.
09:08:30 You have a copy of this.
09:08:40 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council member Mulhern is ill and
09:08:45 will not be in attendance this morning, is my
09:08:47 understanding.
09:08:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:08:50 I have been informed of that.
09:08:51 Didn't get a written memo but that's what I have been
09:08:53 told.
09:08:53 And Councilwoman Saul-Sena is enroute here I
09:08:57 understand.
09:08:58 We have a 9:30 workshop to discuss wet zoning in the
09:09:03 parks.

09:09:09 >>KAREN PALUS: Parks and recreation director.
09:09:11 I have a copy of the presentation.
09:09:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Has had the been revised from earlier?
09:09:26 >>KAREN PALUS: No, the copy that you have is the same,
09:09:29 just a condensed sheet so you can see them all.
09:09:32 Good morning again.
09:09:33 I'm here to discuss with you about parks and
09:09:35 recreation facilities and the alcoholic beverage
09:09:37 sales.
09:09:38 And if I can bring up the PowerPoint.
09:09:43 You asked about the wet zoning in parks and what I
09:09:54 want to present is kind of an overview of where our
09:09:57 code stands as far as alcohol in our parks facilities,
09:10:00 recreation facilities.
09:10:01 Also, we have a little bit of our special events,
09:10:04 special events facilities.
09:10:05 Some of the things that we are proposing for some of
09:10:08 our locations based on previous discussions with
09:10:10 council and constituents through requests over the
09:10:15 last couple of years and then share with you some of
09:10:17 the future potential requests that may be coming
09:10:19 towards council so that you are aware of those prior

09:10:22 to them coming towards this group.
09:10:25 I want to share first with you that under chapter 3
09:10:32 and also in chapter 16 we do not allow any alcohol in
09:10:35 city parks, period.
09:10:36 So that is our standard procedure, rule and such.
09:10:40 So day in and day out operations do not allow alcohol
09:10:44 in any of our locations.
09:10:49 Where we do have alcohol and when we do allow alcohol
09:10:52 is through the temporary alcoholic beverage sales,
09:10:54 special use permit.
09:10:56 And I am going to put out an acronym.
09:10:59 We came up with it.
09:11:02 But under chapter 3 and 27, only nine profits and not
09:11:09 for profits to pull down a special use permit for
09:11:12 alcohol during an event activity and also only 12
09:11:15 sites that are designated here under the parks and
09:11:17 recreation facilities.
09:11:19 Those are listed in chapter 3, and follow that process
09:11:23 currently.
09:11:24 New chapters, we are in the process of revising
09:11:27 chapter 16, creating chapter 28 which is a new special
09:11:30 events policy, and bringing those pieces together, so

09:11:34 you will see 16, 28, and 3 that will be going through
09:11:38 some revisions that will be coming to you very soon.
09:11:40 We are finalizing those actually next week through the
09:11:42 administrative process, and the scheduling time with
09:11:46 each council member to discuss each of those changes.
09:11:48 We have got a lot of revisions with parks and
09:11:51 recreation becoming one department, we have a lot of
09:11:53 pieces in a lot of different places.
09:11:55 We wanted to make sure 28 matches up with 16, that 16
09:11:59 matches up with 3, and 27, all of our codes, so all of
09:12:05 our information is accurate and things have changed
09:12:08 throughout the departments over the last few years.
09:12:10 The following 12 parks, I want to share with you,
09:12:13 those are the ones that are listed here that is where
09:12:15 we would allow alcohol currently for wet zoning
09:12:18 through the process that's available for council,
09:12:22 where you see NationsBank plaza, AKA Kiley Gardens as
09:12:29 we finally call it now but just if you are wondering
09:12:32 where NationsBank park plaza is.
09:12:34 Those are the sites that we have and that are located.
09:12:37 And those have been added to, over the years, as we
09:12:40 have allowed different events and activities to occur,

09:12:43 had requests from individuals to allow for larger
09:12:47 events and to allow alcohol in those locations.
09:12:50 Next item I will talk to you about is the proposal
09:12:53 that is coming forward within our chapter 16 and also
09:12:57 chapter 3.
09:12:58 We have building rentals that typically host a lot of
09:13:02 wedding receptions, functions, family reunions,
09:13:06 different activities and such like. That one of the
09:13:08 things that came up in council a little over a year
09:13:10 ago was a request to explore the opportunity to have
09:13:14 alcohol, beer and wine, some type of controls,
09:13:17 environment, in those rental facilities.
09:13:20 What we are proposing is that we do a pilot program at
09:13:23 the two sites that are strictly rental facilities.
09:13:27 There's no other programming activities going on, no
09:13:29 children's activities and such, and they would be
09:13:32 Reagan park center and Seminole Heights park center.
09:13:37 Those are the two we would propose as pilots.
09:13:38 If those are successful and we assume they would be
09:13:41 based on the constraints that we put in place and all
09:13:43 the requirements that we would then look to facilities
09:13:46 such as the Hunt Center that's been requested, as well

09:13:49 as Barksdale center and Kate Jackson which are rental
09:13:55 facilities on the weekend but you have components of
09:13:58 other activities but they are not usually in conflict
09:14:00 on Saturdays and Sundays when you typically host those
09:14:03 kinds of functions but you want to start with strictly
09:14:05 the rental facilities, Ragan park center, Seminole
09:14:10 Heights garden center.
09:14:13 One is obviously the change in 16 and 3 but also
09:14:16 requires a facilities use permit that we have with
09:14:18 additional language in there directing the alcohol
09:14:21 items in what they are required to complete.
09:14:24 One of the constraints on it is that they would have
09:14:26 to utilize a license and insured caterer.
09:14:29 So that caterer would have to have the information and
09:14:32 be able to provide back to the city, include that as
09:14:34 an additional insured and that goes through our risk
09:14:37 management office to be allowed to have -- if I was
09:14:41 having a family reunion and wanted beer and wine at
09:14:45 the gardens center for that function then I would be
09:14:48 required to go through licensure to do so, meet all
09:14:51 those regulations and work through that process.
09:14:54 That's the only items we are proposing specifically

09:14:56 that is a strict change to our current policies and
09:15:01 not allowing any alcohol in any of our park buildings
09:15:04 unless you complete the temporary special use permit.
09:15:11 The next item.
09:15:12 This is the piece, real important, I wanted to share.
09:15:15 We have current facilities that where wet zonings have
09:15:19 been allowed and then facilities that are operating
09:15:22 where alcohol is not allowed.
09:15:23 The Kiley Gardens basically is a NationsBank,
09:15:28 dedicated as NationsBank, where Malio's is now, part
09:15:32 of the 400 north Ashley agreement from way back when,
09:15:37 Ballast Point, without alcohol.
09:15:40 Lowry Park is a dedicated park with Lowry Park Zoo
09:15:44 that has an agreement and allows alcohol.
09:15:47 Convention center park which is the park that's right
09:15:49 down there on the front drive, that has an agreement
09:15:53 that's permanently wet zoned and is a dedicated park.
09:15:56 And I did leave one off, the PowerPoint, the new
09:16:01 community park, Tampa concessionaire, that is an
09:16:08 athletic facility and do not allow alcohol in athletic
09:16:14 facilities.
09:16:15 What's existing out there, potential requests, to have

09:16:18 those agreements in place.
09:16:19 Those additional requests we know are coming, and
09:16:22 there are some we don't know are coming but I want to
09:16:24 make you aware of in case they were to come forward or
09:16:27 propose at some point in time.
09:16:31 Cotanchobee park, the new museum is underway, and we
09:16:34 anticipate them coming forward with a request.
09:16:43 Requesting their wet zoning.
09:16:45 Curtis Hixon.
09:16:46 Ben T. Davis.
09:16:48 We are going to do a park restaurant kiosk, that I'm
09:16:53 sure if they are going to want to be able to have --
09:16:56 to serve alcohol through that.
09:16:58 Ben T. Davis beach, in the process of redoing the
09:17:01 building, and getting that constructed and brought
09:17:05 down.
09:17:06 There's a concessionaire opportunity there that may or
09:17:09 may not through the process want to request for a wet
09:17:12 zoning.
09:17:18 Don't know if a vendor who or wouldn't want to
09:17:23 request, but we know Saturdays and Sundays are pretty
09:17:26 busy at Al Lopez and that may or may not be an option

09:17:29 in their cafe space.
09:17:31 So those are just potential requests that we think may
09:17:34 or may not come before council that I wanted to make
09:17:37 you aware of them.
09:17:38 And that actually concludes my presentation.
09:17:43 I have a wonderful team behind me, the legal
09:17:45 department, Tampa police is here as well, our special
09:17:47 event office and our zoning division Catherine Coyle.
09:17:51 They are a big part of pulling all this information
09:17:53 together.
09:17:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
09:17:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to compliment you for doing
09:17:59 such an excellent job the other day at the discussion
09:18:01 of West Tampa, the queued a house.
09:18:03 And different possibilities for its future.
09:18:07 But it isn't on the list because it's too preliminary
09:18:10 to say what it might become, but that might be another
09:18:13 place particularly if it used for wedding receptions,
09:18:17 or want to be able to make alcohol available.
09:18:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Dingfelder.
09:18:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If council recalls, one of the
09:18:29 reasons that we are here this morning was in response

09:18:31 to the Ballast Point request.
09:18:35 Which was denied.
09:18:38 I don't know if it was unanimous.
09:18:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It was not.
09:18:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Okay.
09:18:43 You remember, huh?
09:18:44 Anyway, which was denied a month or two ago.
09:18:49 With some discussion.
09:18:50 And I think following Ballast Point, I think it was
09:18:54 council's decision that we should establish some sort
09:18:58 of overall policies for the city as opposed to these
09:19:02 things coming in sort of herky jerky and on an ad hoc
09:19:09 basis, and it concerns me a little bit.
09:19:13 I don't know if you can back up to the thing before
09:19:15 this.
09:19:22 >>KAREN PALUS: Put the PowerPoint back up, please.
09:19:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The PowerPoint is in front of us.
09:19:27 One that said "potential."
09:19:29 There you go.
09:19:30 >>KAREN PALUS: One more.
09:19:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: No, no, that one.
09:19:37 So I think David Smith and I'm sure now Chip used to

09:19:42 tell us, and now Chip will tell us that we are here to
09:19:44 establish policy.
09:19:45 So I think we should establish policy.
09:19:48 And we should establish it through the ordinance.
09:19:50 Right now, we actually have an ordinance that's not
09:19:55 being obeyed.
09:19:57 The ordinance is being violated by other ordinances,
09:20:00 which is -- and who knows how that happened?
09:20:03 But we have an ordinance in chapter 3 which says no
09:20:07 alcohol in parks but then we can see in here that
09:20:09 somehow or other the city including this council at
09:20:12 some point has granted permission to serve alcohol in
09:20:19 Kiley Gardens, to Lowry Park, which probably goes
09:20:22 back, who knows, 15, 20 years ago for that alcohol,
09:20:27 and the convention center, that expansion there adding
09:20:31 to that park area I think was just in the last couple
09:20:33 years.
09:20:34 Those three are in conflict for chapter 3.
09:20:37 >>> Councilman Dingfelder, I did speak with Rebecca
09:20:42 after our conversation and what she referred to is if
09:20:44 you look at it, because it says operated by parks and
09:20:47 recreation, is we are not operating the zoo, we are

09:20:50 not operating Malio's, you know, we know there's some
09:20:53 conflicts that we need to correct, but that's where
09:20:56 the question was.
09:20:57 >> Chapter 3 says the city will not operate.
09:21:00 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
09:21:01 You are correct, there is some conflict in the way
09:21:03 that your ordinances are written and that's some of
09:21:05 the changes that we are proposing when we come through
09:21:08 to clear that up.
09:21:09 Chapter 3 actually is prohibiting alcohol in parks
09:21:13 that are operated or supervised, and I think most of
09:21:16 it happened before my time, I can only imagine that
09:21:19 there was an interpretation that the ones were not
09:21:26 actually operated or supervised by the Parks.
09:21:29 So I do admit there's a conflict and needs to be
09:21:32 cleared out.
09:21:33 >> So we need to clean it up and that's all fine and
09:21:35 good.
09:21:36 But I still think it's inherent upon us to establish
09:21:38 policy.
09:21:39 And I think that's why we set up this workshop.
09:21:42 >>> Right.

09:21:43 >> I would say -- and as long as I have the floor, I
09:21:46 know how I feel about some of these things.
09:21:49 Downtown -- most of these are downtown.
09:21:52 And I'm feign with downtown.
09:21:53 I think downtown generally it's not a children's
09:21:57 environment downtown.
09:21:59 And if you bring your kids down you might know to
09:22:01 expect something different.
09:22:02 Of course, the children's museum is an exception and
09:22:05 the history museum is an exception but I'm sure those
09:22:09 folks will address that if and when they decide to
09:22:12 include alcohol.
09:22:12 Chances are they probably have school in the evening
09:22:16 for evening events and that sort of thing.
09:22:18 But anyway, so downtown I'm generally okay with.
09:22:20 But when you look down at the bottom of the list, I
09:22:24 drove by Ben Davis beach this weekend and it's just
09:22:29 family, family, family and right next to a highway.
09:22:32 I'm not sure this city wants to get into or condone
09:22:35 the sale of alcohol at a place like. That and the
09:22:43 park, sometimes we allow it with nonprofits but as far
09:22:45 as a regular concession, you know, day in and day out,

09:22:49 to go bye a beer and go off in the corner of that
09:22:53 park, I don't know, that doesn't make me feel very
09:22:55 good either and I wouldn't want in the my little
09:22:58 neighborhood park, Palma Ceia park.
09:23:02 But anyway, I think those are the kinds of things that
09:23:04 he would should establish as policy.
09:23:06 I don't know that -- we don't have the proposed
09:23:08 ordinance in front of us yet but I think that we
09:23:12 should give direction to staff this morning in terms
09:23:14 of how that ordinance should go.
09:23:16 I also would say that once we establish that policy,
09:23:19 we should make the ordinance such that it takes a
09:23:22 super majority of this council to overrule that policy
09:23:25 in the form of a 5-2 vote.
09:23:28 Because I don't think this is the kind of thing --
09:23:31 these are important neighborhood issues.
09:23:33 I don't think those should be changed willy-nilly by a
09:23:36 4-3 vote by some council on some given Thursday
09:23:39 morning.
09:23:39 So, anyway, that's my sort of initial thought.
09:23:42 Thank you, council.
09:23:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Ms. Saul-Sena.

09:23:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:23:46 Mr. Dingfelder, you bring up some really good points.
09:23:49 I think for me the distinct is parks that are
09:23:53 primarily used as a playground or sporting activity
09:23:58 and parks that are used for reception, because I think
09:24:02 in parks -- we know the budget shortfalls we face.
09:24:05 I think it's legitimate to have to be able to rent
09:24:08 public space for special events and I think it
09:24:13 appropriate to be able to serve alcohol if you rent a
09:24:15 place and even have a wedding reception there.
09:24:18 And I think not allowing that makes people hypocrites.
09:24:26 So I don't want an ironclad rule because I think we'll
09:24:30 find situations where it would be -- I would character
09:24:38 Ballast Point as a place that's family on one side,
09:24:41 but if the restaurant is legitimately in a beautiful
09:24:45 view, fabulous restaurant, and even though it's
09:24:47 operated in a public place, it's a private restaurant,
09:24:50 and it's a place you might want to have a glass of
09:24:52 wine or beer and look at the sunset.
09:24:54 So to me, a 5-2 vote would be appropriate as opposed
09:24:59 to an outright prohibition as we develop the
09:25:02 guidelines.

09:25:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The view is clear when you're
09:25:06 sober.
09:25:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me raise a few questions.
09:25:11 I guess I have to go back and say what has
09:25:13 precipitated the motivation for now we want to issue
09:25:20 for the alcohol in these parks?
09:25:23 Want to jot that down.
09:25:24 Secondly, what was the original intent we created
09:25:28 parks?
09:25:29 Now some of these things, as councilman Dingfelder
09:25:31 pointed out, may be legitimate when we talk about some
09:25:36 areas downtown, where there's no family oriented kind
09:25:41 of concession area or family atmosphere with kids and
09:25:47 that sort of thing.
09:25:48 But when you look at Ben T. Davis, I agree, water, you
09:25:52 know, and that's a huge concern.
09:25:58 And so I guess my question, we talk about these parks.
09:26:02 And then where is this going?
09:26:04 That's the other question.
09:26:05 Where is this going?
09:26:07 How far are we going with this?
09:26:08 I mean, are we looking at all our parks for --

09:26:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Not neighborhood parks.
09:26:14 Not playgrounds.
09:26:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, you have Ballast Point on there
09:26:18 again.
09:26:19 And that just came to us.
09:26:24 Well, I'll tell you what, my belief is they are going
09:26:26 to come back.
09:26:27 I will just tell you, you know.
09:26:32 And then I saw another park on there, too.
09:26:40 Al Lopez.
09:26:42 That's another one.
09:26:43 That's a lot of activity with children out there, you
09:26:47 know.
09:26:47 And all that traffic on Dale Mabry.
09:26:51 So I guess my question is, what has precipitated,
09:26:54 what's the reason now to make the shifts?
09:27:02 >>> I can answer that very simply.
09:27:04 There are two items regarding Ragan and Seminole
09:27:07 gardens Heights center, strictly an item that came
09:27:10 before, council, a year plus now, asking us to look at
09:27:13 that, how we could allow that within those rental
09:27:16 facilities and we said we would look to maybe pilot

09:27:18 those because that would be something new for the
09:27:20 Parks and Recreation Department to allow that to occur
09:27:23 in the facilities.
09:27:23 Only way we allow anything right now is through that
09:27:26 temporary wet zoning -- excuse me, to use the correct
09:27:31 terms, the alcohol special use permit.
09:27:35 That's a mouthful.
09:27:36 That's the only way we allow anything influence the
09:27:38 Parks and Recreation Department, period.
09:27:39 Those other agreements, those other things, those were
09:27:42 before my time.
09:27:43 I don't know all of the pieces and things that came
09:27:46 into play with those.
09:27:48 Those are things we put in place as far as bringing
09:27:50 this information forward. This is just a to share
09:27:53 with you, this is the current scenario, here is where
09:27:55 it is now in dedicated parks, here is where it isn't,
09:27:58 and that's been the process in the past, is to look at
09:28:01 those individuals as they brought them forward.
09:28:07 A perfect example, that was not something we went out
09:28:10 as the Parks and Recreation Department saying do you
09:28:12 want to serve alcohol?

09:28:14 It's the people that are going to their restaurant
09:28:16 that said I would love to have a glass of wine with my
09:28:20 basket, is there any way we can do that?
09:28:23 We went through the process, walked through what would
09:28:26 have to happen, we brought it total process that
09:28:28 currently exists which is City Council to make those
09:28:31 decisions.
09:28:32 That is all the precedent with that.
09:28:35 What I share with you as potential, I wanted you to
09:28:37 know there's opportunities out there of folks that are
09:28:39 going to utilize the current process to come before
09:28:42 council, or maybe use the current process to come
09:28:45 before council.
09:28:46 That's not a parks and recreation thing, we are
09:28:48 pushing these out here saying this is where we want to
09:28:51 have alcohol.
09:28:51 These are potential opportunities because of things
09:28:53 that are in place or things that may be in place where
09:28:56 those particular operators of those functions may wish
09:28:59 to come before this process to apply for that wet
09:29:02 zoning permit.
09:29:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I thought I heard someone say, well,

09:29:07 because of the budget and the shortfall and all that.
09:29:10 I said well it's a sad day when we have to start
09:29:12 selling alcohol, allowing alcohol just for our
09:29:16 budgetary needs.
09:29:17 >>> This is long before the budget issues, because --
09:29:20 and I'll tell you why you haven't seen it prior to
09:29:22 now, while we are going through it a higher revision,
09:29:26 16 today is not the 16 of tomorrow.
09:29:28 It is a totally -- chapter 16, chapter 28 is a brand
09:29:33 new piece, and as we got into those things, really
09:29:36 have to come altogether to make sense, because one of
09:29:39 them impacts the other significantly.
09:29:41 So 16 has to mirror up with 28 which is the special
09:29:46 events, special events has to mirror up with 3, and we
09:29:50 have a tremendous amount of ordinances that are going
09:29:52 to be coming through to you all for review from the
09:29:55 parks and recreation as kind of the overarching
09:29:58 pieces, and really match up our overall operations
09:30:02 clear, consistent, we don't have things that
09:30:04 contradict one another.
09:30:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: One last thing, then Councilwoman
09:30:08 Miller, then Dingfelder.

09:30:13 What is our liability?
09:30:16 I know we have requests, a million dollars in an
09:30:19 insurance policy but what is our liability?
09:30:21 What is our exposure?
09:30:23 >>> Well, risk management analyzes the situation and
09:30:25 requires that we become a named insured on their
09:30:28 alcohol liability policy, and they actually -- what we
09:30:35 need to ensure that we are covered on that.
09:30:37 And it is required for anytime that is on any
09:30:41 governmental facility.
09:30:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Miller, then councilman
09:30:48 Dingfelder.
09:30:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Because you say potential, do you have
09:30:52 to bring that back to council and we have to approve
09:30:54 it?
09:30:54 Or do you just automatically come --
09:30:58 >>KAREN PALUS: No.
09:30:59 For example, I use Al Lopez as we are getting ready
09:31:03 for a coffee cafe, and bottled water, cup of coffee or
09:31:10 what have you within the property there.
09:31:11 We are going to put that on our RFP, see what kind of
09:31:14 potential we get to come in there.

09:31:16 The reason I added that, and you go to a lot of those
09:31:19 places, you will see they will have the pre-packaged
09:31:23 little beers and little wines, to put that in here
09:31:26 just so if you get something similar to, well, this is
09:31:32 an opportunity, Saturday and Sunday is game day, see
09:31:36 if it's possible to sell beer and wine.
09:31:38 I'm not saying that's going to happen.
09:31:40 There may be that opportunity, because of this
09:31:43 particular situation about going forward with the
09:31:46 coffee cafe kind of facility at Al Lopez.
09:31:50 >> Does council have to vote on that?
09:31:53 >>> Yes.
09:31:53 It comes back to council and you up or down that
09:31:56 decision, yes.
09:31:56 >> So in that case, if we are not satisfied they are
09:31:59 going to be selling it we can always vote it down.
09:32:01 >>> Correct.
09:32:02 >> So it's not like they automatically get it, right?
09:32:06 >>> Right.
09:32:07 >> So if you got it out there and people think they
09:32:09 want it, it's up to us to say, well, we don't think
09:32:12 it's good for the community, good for that area.

09:32:15 Not saying they are guaranteed they are going to get
09:32:17 it.
09:32:17 >>> Right.
09:32:18 And the only reason I put that on there so you know
09:32:21 some of the things that may come before you over the
09:32:23 next couple of years, and we have got some huge
09:32:25 buildings and huge museums and things going in in
09:32:29 downtown, and I want to make sure you knew those were
09:32:32 coming online and they are in city parks and in
09:32:35 dedicated parks or attached to dedicated parks and
09:32:37 such, and then you have some other outlying areas,
09:32:41 that we are looking forward, back with the concession
09:32:44 at Ben T., whether alcohol is available or not, if
09:32:50 somebody requests that, then that is a decision for
09:32:53 council to make.
09:32:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
09:32:59 Rebecca, it appears you have been working with Karen
09:33:01 and staff on this issue and revising these ordinances?
09:33:07 So now we have got a workshop that's set up for a half
09:33:11 hour.
09:33:12 Why aren't those ordinances in front of us to talk
09:33:14 about?

09:33:15 >>REBECCA KERT: Those ordinances as I believe Karen
09:33:17 was saying, 3, 28 and 16 and all those changes, they
09:33:22 all need to come together.
09:33:24 And I think from this workshop if you had some
09:33:26 direction, the alcoholic beverage portion change is
09:33:31 very small.
09:33:32 It not the essence of it.
09:33:34 >> So what's the essence of those changes as related
09:33:36 to this issue?
09:33:38 >>REBECCA KERT: The proposed changes were for the
09:33:42 building rental pilot program that have been directed
09:33:46 by City Council, and to clarify, to get rid of the
09:33:52 conflict that we currently have, which would allow
09:33:54 people to come in for permanent wet zonings to City
09:33:57 Council, which has been the practice.
09:34:00 In one portion of the code it implied, over another
09:34:04 part of the code said it wasn't.
09:34:05 So just to clarify what your current practice has
09:34:07 been.
09:34:08 And if that's not the direction of City Council we can
09:34:11 make those changes.
09:34:11 But that's kind of the track we have been working on.

09:34:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I mean, clearly we need to --
09:34:17 clearly the code needs to reflect, you know, the
09:34:24 reality that we have allowed some, so we can't have a
09:34:26 blanket statement that nothing will be allowed in
09:34:28 parks and rec facilities if we are allowing them.
09:34:30 And if it's our intent to continue to allow some of
09:34:32 them in certain locations, then our code needs to
09:34:36 reflect that.
09:34:37 But I would suggest -- and I'll make a motion in a
09:34:41 second -- that we establish some more finite policies.
09:34:48 And Gwen, I hear what you are saying and I agree with
09:34:51 you, at the end of the day it is council decision.
09:34:53 But the real question is, instead of right now it's
09:34:56 herky jerky like I said earlier.
09:35:01 On any given day the concessionaire at Ballast Point
09:35:04 comes in and the whole community gets riled up and we
09:35:07 spend an hour or two wrestling with it and some people
09:35:14 are happy, some are disappointed.
09:35:16 Why not establish clear policies, okay, that say,
09:35:20 these are our parks.
09:35:22 We are not talking about private property, okay, we
09:35:25 are saying these are our parks and this is our park.

09:35:28 Okay.
09:35:34 And finance we are going to stray it should be a super
09:35:37 majority vote.
09:35:38 I would say not in stone but etched in soap stone.
09:35:44 And then that way when this concessionaire comes in,
09:35:52 at a beach or Al Lopez, a proposal at Al Lopez, they
09:35:55 don't come in with unreasonable expectations.
09:35:57 They know they are going to sell sandwiches and coffee
09:36:00 and what have you.
09:36:00 But they are not bidding thinking, oh, in a couple of
09:36:04 years I am going to come in and try for that alcohol
09:36:06 thing, because we established that if as a policy of
09:36:11 this city we are not going to do that.
09:36:13 So, you know, I would like to see us, you know -- and
09:36:18 I'm okay with Ragan park and Seminole Heights for the
09:36:22 reasons that you explained, Karen.
09:36:23 And I think most of council probably might be, that
09:36:27 these are facilities that if you rent it, you rent the
09:36:30 entire building, it has one purpose on that given
09:36:33 afternoon or evening for that wedding, or for that,
09:36:37 you know, whatever.
09:36:38 That's a different scenario.

09:36:40 And I think that's what we should put into our policy.
09:36:43 But then there are other buildings or other parks that
09:36:46 have multiple purposes.
09:36:48 And that concerns me greatly.
09:36:50 >>> Council, I think that's exactly why those are the
09:36:55 only two proposed at this time.
09:36:57 You had mentioned to me about Kate Jackson, and then
09:37:05 Barksdale and Quida House, if that opportunity goes
09:37:09 through.
09:37:09 You have those others but we want to see how this
09:37:11 works first and make sure it works in a controlled
09:37:14 environment, it doesn't cause us any additional
09:37:16 issues, it doesn't cause problems with the building or
09:37:19 the folks that are utilizing it, and that folks are
09:37:21 utilizing it properly.
09:37:23 This gave us that controlled environment in which to
09:37:25 explore whether this was appropriate for the
09:37:27 department.
09:37:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But I think our chair made the best
09:37:31 point of the morning, which is it's a slippery slope
09:37:33 and where does it end?
09:37:35 You know, this council might say this one and this

09:37:38 one, the next council might say this one and this one,
09:37:41 and pretty soon you have a whole parks system where
09:37:43 it's all over the place and I don't think that's what
09:37:45 the community wants.
09:37:48 >>GWEN MILLER: Is this going to go out to the
09:37:50 community and let them know what we are proposing?
09:37:53 >>KAREN PALUS: As far as the overall code revisions
09:37:55 and such?
09:37:56 Yes, it will go through the normal code process.
09:38:00 28 has already been out with the community as a whole.
09:38:03 16 is really just cleaning up and consolidating a
09:38:09 little bit of information of 16 and then a whole bunch
09:38:11 of directors roles and codifying that so it's mostly
09:38:15 rules and procedures already in place and then
09:38:20 provision for 3.
09:38:21 So we'll bring that up as it goes through the public
09:38:23 process.
09:38:24 Again meet with each of you to go through, because
09:38:28 there's a lot of revisions, a lot of different
09:38:30 ordinances.
09:38:31 I only mention the ones that are kind of a to the
09:38:35 alcohol, and our cemeteries ordinance, chapter 8, we

09:38:38 have to make revisions that will bring -- and then 14,
09:38:43 which are waterways and some of the -- so we have a
09:38:45 lot of clean-up of really bringing that parks and
09:38:47 recreation piece under one umbrella and making sure
09:38:50 everything matches and flows very well together.
09:38:54 That's a lot of information, I know, for council, as
09:38:56 well as for the constituents to kind of digest all of
09:39:00 that.
09:39:00 But really it's good putting it altogether and seeing
09:39:03 it all in one place and matching it up.
09:39:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Palus.
09:39:07 We need to move.
09:39:08 It's 9:40 now.
09:39:10 Council, did you want to make a motion or wait till
09:39:12 full counsel or what's your pleasure?
09:39:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think what I would like to do is
09:39:21 take a little bit of time to work with Karen and legal
09:39:28 and perhaps together craft a policy statement that
09:39:33 might go in conjunction with these ordinances, and
09:39:36 then bring it back to council at the appropriate time.
09:39:40 And I'll do my best to circulate it through Marty or
09:39:45 through the clerk so you see what we are doing.

09:39:51 Obviously we all need to work on it together in the
09:39:53 appropriate sunshine manner.
09:39:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It will come to us anyway, but if you
09:40:00 want to work with our attorney and -- who is the lead
09:40:06 attorney?
09:40:07 Rebecca, you?
09:40:08 Okay.
09:40:09 Well, we are in good hands.
09:40:11 Okay.
09:40:15 >> So I'll do that because I think it's an important
09:40:17 issue.
09:40:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The new park in New Tampa, what is the
09:40:21 rule on that?
09:40:22 >>> That is a facility that we do not allow alcohol.
09:40:25 It's an athletic complex and it's in -- the recreation
09:40:29 center there is not a true rental facility so that is
09:40:32 not contemplated.
09:40:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:40:37 Thank you very much for the workshop and the
09:40:39 information.
09:40:39 Thank you.
09:40:40 We need to move to our 9:30.

09:40:44 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Did you want to take public comment?
09:40:47 >> I'm sorry, you're right.
09:40:48 Yes, that's right.
09:40:49 Public comment.
09:40:50 Anyone that wants to address council, please come
09:40:52 forward.
09:40:55 Anyone wishes to address council.
09:40:57 Seeing none, thank you very much.
09:41:00 9:30.
09:41:03 >>CINDY MILLER: Director growth management development
09:41:05 services.
09:41:06 And if I could have my PowerPoint up, please.
09:41:10 I'm here to talk with you basically the interim report
09:41:15 as to where we stand with some of our housing
09:41:17 initiatives, through our department, and specifically
09:41:19 through the housing and community development
09:41:22 division.
09:41:24 I know that a lost you feel auditing is boring,
09:41:27 mundane things.
09:41:28 However, considering where we have come from, and
09:41:31 where we have gotten to, I think it's very exciting
09:41:34 gnaws.

09:41:36 I must give the full credit to Sharon West and the
09:41:39 members of her team in housing and community
09:41:41 development.
09:41:43 Let me just point out that in 2007 for I think the
09:41:47 first time in many years, our external auditors, Ernst
09:41:51 & Young, found the city in complete compliance with
09:41:54 state and federal guidelines and had absolutely no
09:41:57 findings.
09:41:58 In May 2008, for the first time ever, we had a perfect
09:42:03 100% score from the Seltzer management group that does
09:42:07 the audit of the state programs, and that would have
09:42:10 been basically a three-year monitoring for the state
09:42:14 fiscal years ending in 2005, 2006, 2007.
09:42:17 In June 2008 we just had a HUD monitoring visit for
09:42:27 several days during one week.
09:42:28 They found substantial improvement in all of our
09:42:30 program management and no significant findings.
09:42:33 They had some recommendations but nothing that would
09:42:35 rise to the level of a finding.
09:42:37 And my former colleagues in internal audit have noted
09:42:41 significant operational improvements.
09:42:43 I can a sure you the audits from internal auditor are

09:42:46 a lot shorter than when I was around.
09:42:52 I would like to touch on where we have been the last
09:42:54 few years.
09:42:55 The last time I think I showed this to you we had some
09:42:57 unspent funds.
09:42:58 We still do for fiscal 07 and 08 but I wanted to give
09:43:01 you a preview of what's going to come before you in
09:43:03 the next few weeks.
09:43:05 And I do have to clarify something that was in our
09:43:08 evening meeting the other evening where we were
09:43:12 talking about community development block grants and
09:43:15 home funds.
09:43:16 I had stated that we had funding in that funding for
09:43:20 2009 for the homeless coalition for children aging out
09:43:24 of foster care.
09:43:26 I was in error.
09:43:28 We want it funded sooner.
09:43:30 So we want to fund from the these home funds.
09:43:32 It's not that the money isn't there.
09:43:34 It's that we want to do it a few months faster so you
09:43:36 will see that contract coming to you very shortly.
09:43:39 In addition to that there will be Hillsborough house

09:43:41 of hope where we also intend to award $226,800.
09:43:46 A number of our other partners for the not for profits
09:43:50 for housing as well as center for women.
09:43:52 You may recall the center for women had some publicity
09:43:55 a few months ago.
09:43:56 The housing division as well as construction services
09:43:59 division has worked with them, and we are very pleased
09:44:02 with the results and the improved work that they are
09:44:06 doing, helping especially seniors within our
09:44:09 community.
09:44:10 We also will use the rest of the money to fill that
09:44:13 gap in the fiscal 08 with additional down payment
09:44:16 assistance, whether that is directly to our clients,
09:44:19 through us or through another initiative is still to
09:44:22 be determined.
09:44:23 But I can a sure you that when it comes to the home
09:44:26 federal program, we intend to best Utah lays all of
09:44:30 these resources.
09:44:33 For state funding, we spent all the money.
09:44:36 We are ready to go on to fiscal '09.
09:44:40 One initiative that the city started participating in
09:44:43 a couple of years ago is working in partnership with

09:44:47 the housing finance authority.
09:44:49 We have not done this in previous years, and we have
09:44:51 been doing it basically for the past two fiscal years,
09:44:54 and had provided $750,000 in SHIP funds most recently.
09:45:00 I was able to attend a meeting that the Executive
09:45:03 Director had present sod figures and you can see on
09:45:09 your monitor that it is a great program, the down
09:45:14 payment assistance provided to the city and also the
09:45:16 county is also providing it for constituents and their
09:45:19 jurisdiction.
09:45:21 The important thing is, we are looking at basically an
09:45:24 average subsidy of $37,000 per house.
09:45:28 This is assisting folks where the average borrower
09:45:33 income in 2006 and 2007 ranged from 38,000 to $41,000
09:45:38 so we are helping the folks in greatest need.
09:45:41 We also found that the average rate, the mortgage
09:45:45 rate, by having our down payment assistance, brought
09:45:48 the effective rate down below 5%.
09:45:51 That's a pretty good program.
09:45:55 And may I also say that one reason we are looking at
09:45:59 this, there is so much opportunity for leveraging but
09:46:02 that is where we are looking at fiscal '09 for

09:46:06 additional opportunities to provide funding through
09:46:07 their bond program.
09:46:09 Over the last few weeks, you have also been working
09:46:12 with me and with the administration to put together
09:46:16 our affordable housing advisory committee.
09:46:19 And that committee is now together, and we are
09:46:21 starting some initial orientation, and we are really
09:46:25 start kicking off the meetings in August.
09:46:27 We will be back to you later in the year with
09:46:29 recommendations from that committee.
09:46:30 But I wanted to give you a little preview of what they
09:46:33 will be looking at.
09:46:35 They are specifically established under state statute
09:46:37 and will be looking at the state housing initiative
09:46:39 partnership.
09:46:40 And this is basically meeting the housing needs of
09:46:44 very low, low and moderate-income households.
09:46:50 Also, we would be looking at enhancing our plan as to
09:46:56 what the city submits to the state in order for them
09:46:59 to be assured that they are sending us the money for
09:47:01 appropriate pursuance.
09:47:03 And specifically looking at the comprehensive plan.

09:47:05 We'll be back to that tonight.
09:47:07 So we'll look forward to that with you at our evening
09:47:11 meeting.
09:47:14 What their specific duties are for this year is to be
09:47:16 look at the housing incentives.
09:47:19 What are the means by which we can do this?
09:47:22 And these are the incentives that are not just
09:47:24 financial.
09:47:24 They may very well involve other types of strategies.
09:47:29 As an example of one we already have.
09:47:33 We had expedited permitting.
09:47:35 The construction service center already works for
09:47:37 Sharon West, so if Sharon has signed off as an
09:47:41 affordable housing project it goes to construction
09:47:46 services.
09:47:47 We already have an ongoing process that anytime there
09:47:50 is a policy or procedure, whether council raises it or
09:47:54 my office sees it, we are will go for ways of limiting
09:47:59 the bureaucracy that we have within our city.
09:48:02 Some of the things that we already have but we want to
09:48:06 look at again, one is density bonus flexibility.
09:48:09 Council already has included in chapter 27 an

09:48:12 incentive for bonus density but no one exercised it
09:48:17 yet so therefore I really hope the committee will take
09:48:19 a look at this and say, what should we possibly be
09:48:21 doing differently?
09:48:22 What would be a way of enhancing this?
09:48:25 And we already provided to council an inventory of all
09:48:28 of our available vacant land for affordable housing.
09:48:34 And that concludes the PowerPoint.
09:48:35 I just have a couple of other comments.
09:48:37 I don't think I can do this presentation without
09:48:39 touching on the word that has become sort of part of
09:48:42 our culture, which is foreclosure.
09:48:44 I don't think any of us really used that word over the
09:48:48 last few years.
09:48:49 And you can close off the PowerPoint now.
09:48:52 Thank you.
09:48:54 I think for every family, the foreclosure situation is
09:48:59 a little bit different.
09:49:01 We can't just say it's because of predatory lending,
09:49:04 or it's because someone, quote, getting in over their
09:49:10 head.
09:49:10 There are a number of stories.

09:49:12 Talking to the head of one of our credit unions I
09:49:15 asked him what was he seeing.
09:49:17 He said, three years ago perhaps the father of the
09:49:19 family was working 60 hours a week.
09:49:22 Had every expectation of that kind of work continuing.
09:49:25 So he was doing very well, getting overtime, things of
09:49:29 that nature.
09:49:30 The mother of the house was perhaps working and having
09:49:33 a 40, maybe even a 40-plus hour workweek.
09:49:36 But they were pulling in salaries that were able to
09:49:39 accommodate a hair standard of living than they had
09:49:41 ever experienced before.
09:49:43 He said, so they might have even had a down payment.
09:49:46 But what they are seeing is that now the mother has
09:49:49 been laid off, the father is now only working 40 hours
09:49:53 a week, and so therefore they are not able to
09:49:56 accommodate the type of life-style they had hoped to
09:49:58 have in the future forever.
09:50:00 So the story, every family is different and I think
09:50:04 that's something we all have to recognize.
09:50:06 What I am very proud to say is for those down payment
09:50:09 assistance families and individuals for which we have

09:50:13 issued down payment assistance, we have had no
09:50:15 foreclosures under our program for the past, I guess
09:50:18 it's been three and a half years that we have actually
09:50:20 been actively doing it.
09:50:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That is extraordinary.
09:50:24 >>> And I must say credit really goes to Sharon West.
09:50:29 We had a lot of pressure a couple years ago from
09:50:31 lending institutions asking us to reduce our criteria,
09:50:36 to let people have a bit more debt, or not come to the
09:50:40 table with any amount of resources.
09:50:42 We like to have a little bit of resources coming to
09:50:44 the table.
09:50:45 We didn't want to set people up for failure.
09:50:48 And isn't it interesting a lot of lending criteria are
09:50:52 coming right to where Sharon has been.
09:50:55 So I want to congratulate her and her division for
09:50:58 holding firm and making sure that we did not set up
09:51:00 any of our citizens for failure.
09:51:03 You may have heard that the house has passed the
09:51:07 federal level aid foreclosure bill.
09:51:11 They intend for it to go to the Senate next week.
09:51:13 The president has indicated in its current form he

09:51:17 will not veto.
09:51:18 We are waiting to see what the exact language is as to
09:51:20 how it will affect our program.
09:51:22 Since we within our own program do not have a -- we
09:51:25 have no foreclosures from our current program, we
09:51:29 don't anticipate that we will have, say, the same kind
09:51:32 of situation as other jurisdictions.
09:51:34 I can a sure you from my travels in other parts of the
09:51:37 state and other parts of the country, especially up in
09:51:41 the north and the midwest, the number of houses that
09:51:44 are foreclosed and boarded up are as many as 25 to 30%
09:51:50 so it is a very sad, dire situation in a number of
09:51:53 communities.
09:51:53 I'm just very proud that our division has been able to
09:51:56 work with our clients and be able to address their
09:52:00 needs while still maintaining good fiscal order.
09:52:04 And I'm happy to address any questions.
09:52:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you for a really Sterling
09:52:13 report.
09:52:14 The numbers you shared with us are very impressive.
09:52:17 Most extraordinarily, but none of the people that we
09:52:20 have provided assistance to have experienced

09:52:23 foreclosure.
09:52:24 And I want to congratulate both you and Ms. West on a
09:52:29 great report.
09:52:29 I have a couple of concerns, and that is, we are doing
09:52:34 what we can with the resources that we have now, but
09:52:38 I'm familiar with the homeless coalition numbers and
09:52:42 that the number of homeless are growing, and there are
09:52:44 a number of people whose mortgages have been
09:52:47 foreclosed on, not through -- they don't have sitting
09:52:52 mortgages but they have other people's mortgages, and
09:52:54 given that we are in a difficult time, is there any
09:52:58 sort of stop gap relieve to keep people from being out
09:53:04 on the street that you have explored that we might be
09:53:06 able to make available to people for the sake of the
09:53:10 neighborhoods?
09:53:11 Because an empty house as we all know has a very
09:53:13 negative effect on the surrounding neighborhood, if
09:53:17 there are several the effect is compounded.
09:53:19 Are there any things that you have cooked up that we
09:53:21 might be able to bring to help people?
09:53:24 >>> There are a number of resources out there that may
09:53:26 not be directly provided by the city but I can give

09:53:28 you some examples.
09:53:29 The Salvation Army is the administrator for TECO's
09:53:33 emergency utility payment.
09:53:36 They can receive, I believe, one month's electricity
09:53:39 payment in order to make sure that their utilities are
09:53:41 not cut off.
09:53:43 So that is available through the Salvation Army right
09:53:45 up here on Florida.
09:53:46 The county also provides social services, both
09:53:50 directly to the county as well as to other not for
09:53:53 profits.
09:53:54 So I think the best way to say it is -- another
09:54:00 example, we will be coming to you in August are the
09:54:03 emergency shelter grants.
09:54:05 Again that's not stopping people from being homeless,
09:54:07 but once they are, we do provide emergency shelter
09:54:10 grants, and that is through the homeless coalition to
09:54:14 a number of entities, and those contracts will be
09:54:16 coming to you.
09:54:17 So I think when it comes to the day-to-day assistance,
09:54:21 Salvation Army Metropolitan Ministries, a lot of them
09:54:24 are known for when folks already become homeless, that

09:54:28 they do have a number of programs to assist, so the
09:54:30 folks to not become homeless.
09:54:32 And I think that contacting those particular entities
09:54:35 as well as the homeless coalition and the county for
09:54:38 their social services, I think, is the best thing that
09:54:41 most of our constituents can do.
09:54:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me follow up and congratulate you
09:54:48 and Ms. West again for outstanding report, and audit.
09:54:58 That is commendable.
09:55:00 So I want to compliment you on that.
09:55:05 Also, a couple of questions.
09:55:08 You gave us incentives and things that you are doing.
09:55:11 Have you looked and considered a trust for affordable
09:55:18 housing?
09:55:18 Has that been considered at any point?
09:55:21 >>CINDY MILLER: We have not historically looked at
09:55:23 that because of our funding sources but one thing that
09:55:25 we are happy with -- our affordable housing advisory
09:55:30 committee, that can be something that we can certainly
09:55:32 develop and see there's opportunities.
09:55:38 That's something we'll put on our list for
09:55:40 consideration, sir.

09:55:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: the whole issue of foreclosure
09:55:46 continues to be a major issue.
09:55:48 It's good that we haven't had any but I know going
09:55:50 back about a month ago the county had something like
09:55:53 5,000 foreclosures countywide pretty much.
09:55:55 And so that's quite significant when you think in
09:55:59 terms of that.
09:56:00 And with that -- and I saw news about the deal coming
09:56:05 forth.
09:56:06 Do you happen to know at this point what's in there?
09:56:09 >>> They have indicated that there will be moneys for
09:56:11 local governments from the standpoint of either
09:56:14 acquisition of foreclosed homes, so that a community
09:56:19 can redevelop the area.
09:56:21 They are also looking at rehabilitation money, to
09:56:27 rehabilitate foreclosed homes.
09:56:28 So there is a laundry list.
09:56:30 But we don't know how it will exactly be allocated.
09:56:34 We do think there will be some opportunities.
09:56:36 But until we see the final wording and final
09:56:39 allocation, I really can't tell you how flat we'll be
09:56:42 from our particular standpoint.

09:56:44 >> Lastly going back to follow up with what Ms.
09:56:48 Saul-Sena said to her question, I do know that the
09:56:50 county does have the county charged with the whole
09:56:53 issue of social services so they have a whole program
09:56:56 over there that addressed some of that.
09:56:59 However, it limited, too, because you only, I think,
09:57:02 use it within one time within a year, I think it is, a
09:57:09 TECO bill or something one time within 12 months,
09:57:13 before you can qualify again, unless it changed since
09:57:17 I left but I do know they did have some of that for
09:57:20 people who find themselves kind of falling on hard
09:57:24 times, you might say, to have some assistance that is
09:57:28 available.
09:57:30 Okay.
09:57:31 Any other questions?
09:57:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be
09:57:37 constructive at a future workshop day to have concise
09:57:42 discussion of what the homeless coalition strategies
09:57:44 are, how the city fits into it, and what we need to
09:57:49 think about going ahead.
09:57:52 Because -- because of the job losses and the
09:57:57 challenging development industry, our citizens are

09:57:59 being impacted.
09:58:00 And I know that we are doing everything we can.
09:58:04 And I think it would be informative for council
09:58:08 members to know what is being done, and then for us to
09:58:13 scratch our heads and see if there's anything
09:58:15 additional that we can think of to help, because I'm
09:58:19 concerned that this situation is going to worsen, and
09:58:21 we have made such excellent strides in terms of
09:58:25 improving our neighborhoods, our public infrastructure
09:58:29 people have done terrific jobs of privately investing
09:58:31 in their homes, and I would hate to see all our gains
09:58:35 backslide.
09:58:37 So whatever we can do to shore it up, we need to do.
09:58:40 It's not anything, I think, that council is able to
09:58:43 take a strong policy initiative on, but I think that
09:58:47 we need to be aware of what we are doing in terms of
09:58:49 homelessness, including specific numbers of the
09:58:54 numbers of dwelling units that we've invested in, and
09:58:59 help people purchase, and rent.
09:59:01 And then what the need is.
09:59:03 Because I think those are two critical pieces of the
09:59:06 conversation.

09:59:06 >>> I know that council usually likes me to come back
09:59:10 with a year-end report once we have our September
09:59:13 30th -- that's usually the focal point after
09:59:17 September.
09:59:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
09:59:18 And you may -- I do know that the county played a
09:59:21 major role in helping to hold coordination in the
09:59:25 past.
09:59:26 It's hard to get additional money.
09:59:28 In fact, we allocated for them, I think it's over
09:59:33 $77,000, pulled down another 16 from the federal
09:59:37 government a couple years ago.
09:59:39 So some of that was done.
09:59:41 I don't know.
09:59:42 Given the current market of what's going on.
09:59:45 >> And Sharon West is our liaison with the homeless
09:59:49 coalition.
09:59:50 Their offices are housed at the German American club
09:59:53 on Nebraska.
09:59:54 We also participate from a financial standpoint there.
09:59:57 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Chairman.
10:00:00 Perhaps the other participant in this should be

10:00:02 Christine Burdick who I know is also a member of the
10:00:04 homeless coalition.
10:00:05 Because you know a lot of homeless people, they tend
10:00:08 to gather downtown in the City of Tampa, which has an
10:00:10 impact on our downtown redevelopment.
10:00:12 So it's all of the pieces.
10:00:14 We need to look at all of the components.
10:00:16 My motion would be at our October workshops -- would
10:00:19 that be enough time to give you to the end of October?
10:00:25 At our October workshop we schedule a presentation on
10:00:29 what we are doing to address homelessness and housing,
10:00:32 in terms of numbers.
10:00:33 Thank you.
10:00:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thanks very much for a very good
10:00:37 report.
10:00:37 And congratulations again, Ms. West and Ms. Miller.
10:00:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Does that need to be a motion with
10:00:43 a second?
10:00:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The only two workshops you have set
10:00:48 on the 23rd of October, commendation, police
10:00:52 Officer of the Month.
10:00:54 -- October 23rd at 9:15 you have a workshop, the

10:00:58 status of green issues.
10:00:59 I don't know how long that's scheduled.
10:01:01 But does council wish -- do you wish to make a motion
10:01:04 so it's on the record?
10:01:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My motion would be at 10:30 we have
10:01:08 a presentation on homelessness for 30 minutes.
10:01:10 Homelessness and housing and how we are doing.
10:01:13 Can there be a second?
10:01:16 >> Second.
10:01:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded that we have a
10:01:19 workshop on homelessness and what is being done, for
10:01:24 30 minutes.
10:01:25 Okay.
10:01:25 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Including the housing update.
10:01:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
10:01:29 All in favor of the motion signify by saying Aye.
10:01:32 Opposes?
10:01:34 Okay.
10:01:34 Public comment.
10:01:35 Anyone here wish to address council?
10:01:39 Anyone wish to address council?
10:01:44 Thank you.

10:01:44 Thank you.
10:01:45 Okay.
10:01:48 Next workshop.
10:01:54 TCEA.
10:01:56 >>> Jean Dorzback, transportation division.
10:01:59 I have got an updated packet to hand out to you.
10:02:05 We are giving you a final briefing on our TCEA
10:02:08 policies.
10:02:09 I have got a PowerPoint
10:02:20 As I said, this is a final briefing of our TCEA
10:02:30 policies which are transportation concurrency
10:02:33 exception area.
10:02:35 We felt it would be a good opportunity for the public
10:02:36 to hear those and also make the additional point to
10:02:43 follow up from our last briefing, which is to show how
10:02:46 the transit policies are really well integrated with
10:02:51 our TCEA policy.
10:02:58 As part of our state management act the City is
10:03:02 required to modify our TCEA and we have chosen to do
10:03:05 that as part of our comprehensive plan update so
10:03:08 that's why there's a little additional focus on the
10:03:11 TCEA policies.

10:03:14 Basically, since 1998 the City of Tampa has been
10:03:19 covered by a TCEA for everything south of Fletcher
10:03:22 Avenue.
10:03:22 And this has allowed the city to raise concurrency
10:03:27 requirement -- waive concurrency for roads to
10:03:30 encourage in-fill development within the city limits.
10:03:32 So basically the current policy, the way they have
10:03:34 been working is, the proposed developments come into
10:03:39 the city, they are basically reviewed exactly the
10:03:41 same.
10:03:41 There's in a differentiation depending on where the
10:03:44 project is located within the city.
10:03:46 And the policy hasn't been very successful in terms of
10:03:50 bringing growth to the City of Tampa, but there's not
10:03:53 an existing mechanism to encourage the growth to any
10:03:55 particular area of the city.
10:03:58 Additionally the current policy provides for
10:04:01 transportation mitigation for roads, but there are in
10:04:05 a options for transit mitigation under the current
10:04:07 policy.
10:04:10 And I would like to refer you to the map in your
10:04:12 packet.

10:04:13 I'll go ahead and put that on the screen.
10:04:16 Basically, this map is a visual of the policies that
10:04:19 I'm summarizing for you.
10:04:21 And if you had little time to Goetz get your arms
10:04:26 around this issue, if you refer to this map it really
10:04:28 tells what the policies are encouraging through this
10:04:30 comp plan.
10:04:31 And on the map you see the different urban form
10:04:34 districts that were developed with the Planning
10:04:37 Commission as part of our comprehensive plan update.
10:04:40 Basically we have identified, also our key district.
10:04:45 We have the downtown reap vitalization which is the
10:04:47 dark blue color.
10:04:48 We have got the dark green areas, generally USF, port,
10:04:55 Channelside, and Westshore.
10:04:56 And those are urban redevelopment areas.
10:04:59 And then the light green color, most everything else
10:05:03 in the city is the urban in-fill and redevelopment
10:05:06 areas, most of our neighborhoods and we have a new
10:05:11 design, urban form concept called mixed use villages
10:05:18 which will be located along the lines in the map there
10:05:20 and I will explain that a little more in just a

10:05:22 moment.
10:05:24 And I guess before I go any further, I will be making
10:05:27 reference to transit in this summary.
10:05:29 And I just want to define transit because it's one of
10:05:32 those words that just gets a little confusing at
10:05:35 times.
10:05:35 Basically in this context, transit is basically any
10:05:39 mode of transit, bus, BRT, light rail, there's no
10:05:43 particular technology we are referring to.
10:05:45 >> BRT is bus rapid transit?
10:05:49 >>> Yes, bus rapid trance Toyota be the streetcar, any
10:05:52 transit mode that is available to us.
10:05:55 When I say transit, the that's the policies they are
10:05:58 referring to, also.
10:06:08 Basically what we are proposing if you come to the
10:06:10 project in the downtown area, the dark blue area on
10:06:12 your map, the project will be reviewed by
10:06:14 transportation, and as long as it meets the basic
10:06:17 requirements, urban design requirements, that project
10:06:22 will pay an impact fee and move forward.
10:06:24 For projects that come into the dark green areas, the
10:06:27 urban redevelopment areas, we will be doing an

10:06:30 additional review of the proximity to that project of
10:06:34 a primary transit corridor.
10:06:36 I'll explain that in just a moment.
10:06:39 For our urban in-fill projects which are basically
10:06:42 most of the neighborhoods in the city, most of the
10:06:43 areas, and these mixed use corridor villages, we will
10:06:47 be looking at the proximity of those projects, a
10:06:51 transit service, and we will also be looking at the
10:06:54 impact of those projects to our neighborhoods.
10:06:57 And this is a new policy that we included in reaction
10:07:01 to our recognition of past neighborhoods concern, that
10:07:05 developments are coming in, and council didn't have
10:07:08 any mechanism for trying to address the concerns of
10:07:11 the neighborhood, that the project might have.
10:07:13 So that's a very important point that we wanted to
10:07:16 make, that this is a new policy that we are going to
10:07:18 be implementing, that gives recognition to those
10:07:22 neighborhood concerns.
10:07:27 And I guess I'll -- I wanted to give a little more
10:07:35 explanation about the primary transit corridors.
10:07:38 There are policies in this comprehensive plan that are
10:07:40 going to require the city to coordinate with TBARTA,

10:07:45 heart or any other transit provider that we have, and
10:07:47 we are going to actually be designating primary
10:07:50 transit corridors, which service our urban
10:07:53 redevelopment areas in our mixed use corridor villages
10:07:57 and we are actually going to be answering interlocal
10:08:00 agreements to ensure commitment of service to these
10:08:03 corridors, and then those corridors are going to be
10:08:06 the locations of this new urban -- the mixed use urban
10:08:12 village and that has been identified as a very good
10:08:14 transition type of development that can coexist along
10:08:17 an arterial, but also coexist to the neighborhood.
10:08:20 And as you see on the map, it basically runs through
10:08:26 all of the neighborhood areas of our city.
10:08:28 We feel this is a very good development form to
10:08:31 introduce that will give it better compatibility with
10:08:34 the neighborhood with the arterial.
10:08:38 So basically, what these policies are going to do is
10:08:48 allow a variation in the development review when it
10:08:52 comes in through transportation, instead of everything
10:08:54 being reviewed exactly the same, we are going to
10:08:56 review the projects differently within the different
10:08:59 growth areas.

10:09:01 And basically, the policies are going to look at are
10:09:05 urban form standards, we are also going to be looking
10:09:09 at the projects to a primary transit corridor, we are
10:09:13 going to be assessing impacts to neighborhoods based
10:09:18 on what the project's proposals are, and our next
10:09:23 phase of process for this is going to be translating
10:09:28 these policies into code.
10:09:30 We can actually implement these policies and there
10:09:32 will be a lot of conversation when we get to that next
10:09:34 phase.
10:09:37 So just to kind of give you the baseline requirements,
10:09:41 in terms of mitigation, mitigation is a separate
10:09:45 requirement separate from impact fee.
10:09:49 There is still some mitigation within the TCEA, each
10:09:53 though we don't have to meet transportation
10:09:54 concurrency.
10:09:55 It's just a lesser intensity.
10:09:58 So basically, when we review the projects, we la to
10:10:02 make sure the projects are consistent with our
10:10:03 comprehensive plan, the projects appropriately
10:10:07 mitigate their site impact and then they pay the
10:10:10 appropriate impact fees based on their development.

10:10:14 If you go back to the map, that's always the best
10:10:16 reference, if a project comes in to the downtown
10:10:20 revitalization area, for example, we are going to
10:10:23 assess that project for the basic code requirements
10:10:27 and also look at the appropriate lists of the urban
10:10:30 design, then assuming that it's consistent with those
10:10:33 things it's going to basically pay an impact fee for
10:10:36 transportation and move forward.
10:10:40 For a project that were to come in such as that dark
10:10:43 green area under map, the urban redevelopment area, we
10:10:46 would again look for that consistency with the urban
10:10:48 form, and we would now also be looking at the
10:10:52 proximity of that project to a primary transit
10:10:54 corridor, and we would also make sure the project met
10:10:59 appropriate site impacts, and when those conditions
10:11:02 are met the project would then move forward.
10:11:08 Along these mixed use corridors which will reside
10:11:11 along the arterials that we'll identify, it will be
10:11:13 the same process, make sure it's consistent with
10:11:17 appropriate form, make sure that there is a transit
10:11:20 service -- I'm sorry, thank you.
10:11:23 I appreciate that.

10:11:23 Make sure the transit service is provided through a
10:11:26 commitment with an agreement.
10:11:28 And as you see on your map again, these mixed use
10:11:31 corridors will be within the neighborhood areas, and
10:11:34 we will have that additional review of making sure
10:11:36 that the neighborhood impacts are appropriately
10:11:39 addressed along those mixed use corridor villages.
10:11:44 Within the urban in-fill area, the light green area of
10:11:47 your map, these areas will have the highest level of
10:11:51 transportation requirements.
10:11:53 And as I mentioned before, we are going to be really
10:11:56 looking at making sure the neighborhood impacts are
10:11:57 addressed in these areas, because these areas are most
10:12:02 impacting our neighborhoods.
10:12:03 Just want to reinforce that point with these policies.
10:12:08 And a basic requirement is transportation mitigation
10:12:13 is required with these projects, a traffic analysis
10:12:15 will be done to make sure that the impacts on the
10:12:20 system are addressed, and that we will have a
10:12:22 mechanism for either allowing a proportionate share to
10:12:25 be paid, or an actual improvement will have to be made
10:12:27 to make sure there's no impacts, negative impacts to

10:12:30 the system.
10:12:33 For those areas that are north of Fletcher area
10:12:36 outside of the GPEA, that is also part of our city.
10:12:39 Those areas have to meet transportation concurrency.
10:12:43 They are mostly covered by existing development, or if
10:12:47 something new were to come in, it would be required to
10:12:49 meet the appropriate requirements, and meet the
10:12:53 transportation system requirements that we don't have
10:12:59 in the TCEA area.
10:13:03 So basically that's my summary.
10:13:07 The other point we just want to make is that there are
10:13:09 over 100 policies relating to transit in this
10:13:12 comprehensive plan document, and they are not just in
10:13:15 chapter 9 which deals with mobility.
10:13:17 They are scattered throughout the entire document.
10:13:19 And we really feel that the land use policies, the
10:13:23 transportation policies, and the transit policies are
10:13:25 very well woven together in this document.
10:13:28 If you have any questions, I will be glad to answer
10:13:30 them now.
10:13:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Saul-Sena.
10:13:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you. This is a very clear

10:13:37 presentation and I'm really happy our comprehensive
10:13:39 plan speaks to transit development very clearly,
10:13:42 speaks to neighborhoods being walkable and speaks to
10:13:44 development.
10:13:45 There was something in our plan -- we'll get to that
10:13:49 tonight. Anyway, it's much better than it has been.
10:13:52 But I have a couple of questions that I need to
10:13:54 clarify.
10:13:56 Can the impact fee go into an endowment?
10:14:00 For example, I'm thinking of the streetcar which is
10:14:03 currently built, although I would certainly love see
10:14:07 it expanded.
10:14:08 I think everybody would.
10:14:09 But one of the challenges with the streetcar is the
10:14:12 operating, the annual operating fee.
10:14:14 Could we create an opportunity for part of the transit
10:14:18 impact fee to go into an endowment whose throw-off
10:14:24 every year would help paper for the operating
10:14:26 expenses?
10:14:27 >>> I'll give you my transportation answer.
10:14:30 Julia might want to add on.
10:14:32 Currently, our transportation impact fee made recent

10:14:37 modifications that will allow us to direct up to 50%
10:14:40 of those selected to Hart as our transit provider
10:14:46 interest now.
10:14:46 If we wanted to do something more customized we would
10:14:51 have to make certain provisions to do that.
10:14:53 >> Okay.
10:14:53 But we could do that.
10:14:57 My question is not is this in place now, but do we
10:15:01 have -- could we change our ordinances to do that?
10:15:04 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
10:15:05 Depending on what you are trying to accomplish and
10:15:07 ensuring that you meet all the legal requirements for
10:15:09 the use of impact fees, and it may require us to do
10:15:13 additional studies as part of our impact fee studies,
10:15:17 to show that we could defend it, so to try to answer
10:15:22 just generally, it really is specific as to what it is
10:15:25 we would try to accomplish and may require
10:15:28 additional --
10:15:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, let me be specific then
10:15:30 N.downtown Tampa, where, God willing, we are going to
10:15:33 see a lot more development, we are not able to widen
10:15:36 the streets.

10:15:37 Now, we are doing everything we can to mach our
10:15:39 streets more functional.
10:15:40 We are making them two-way.
10:15:42 We are making them less bumpy.
10:15:44 But bottom line, we are not going to be able to spend
10:15:47 money on streets in the future, downtown.
10:15:49 So -- and we all recognize that we need to create
10:15:52 transit options.
10:15:53 So while we currently pay 50% of the fee, I'm thinking
10:15:57 in the future we might want to up that to 80% with an
10:16:01 opportunity perhaps in addition to spending money on
10:16:03 the, you know, the physical creation of the system, we
10:16:06 might want to credit some kind of an endowment that
10:16:09 would help with the ongoing operating expenses of the
10:16:12 system.
10:16:14 You don't have to answer it now.
10:16:15 This is just something for the future.
10:16:16 >>JULIA COLE: Thank you.
10:16:17 And I think that's probably going to take us into a
10:16:20 whole different conversation and impact fees
10:16:22 specifically aren't part of the comp plan but just the
10:16:28 idea that transit is something that we should be

10:16:29 looking towards in the future when we look at
10:16:32 development approval and would give us the ability to
10:16:34 talk about those kinds of questions.
10:16:36 >> One other question I think for legal, Julia.
10:16:39 You're popular.
10:16:42 We have a number of projects for zoning that have come
10:16:46 before us downtown that we have approved.
10:16:47 And not to be pessimistic but I think that probably
10:16:50 some of them are coming to fruition.
10:16:52 And those projects have a certain amount of capacity
10:16:57 vested in them.
10:16:58 So what do we do when the tenth project in lane comes
10:17:01 and says, we would like to build something, do we have
10:17:03 the capacity?
10:17:05 And you know that probably projects two, four, seven
10:17:09 and eight are not going to be built, but yet they have
10:17:12 already had a commitment of transportation capacity
10:17:15 for, let's say, downtown or Westshore or DRI.
10:17:19 How do we deal with that in terms of allowing new
10:17:24 proposals that might actually get built be recognized
10:17:27 when we have already committed some of our existing,
10:17:29 you know, potential impact on our system to projects

10:17:32 that probably won't come to fruition?
10:17:35 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department again.
10:17:37 You talk about within the DRIs.
10:17:39 The DRI's themselves deal with those issues, because
10:17:44 how the transportation analysis must occur, and at
10:17:49 this point in time you can reserve its passage.
10:17:51 For example, in downtown, you don't really reserve
10:17:54 your capacity, and reserve these issues until such
10:17:57 time as you come in for a certain level of permitting.
10:18:00 I believe the same thing happens in Westshore.
10:18:02 So --
10:18:04 >> Zoning approval doesn't mean --
10:18:07 >>> Not necessarily within the GPRI.
10:18:12 They are sort of self-operating.
10:18:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:18:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Dingfelder.
10:18:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
10:18:21 Thank you to staff for working on this.
10:18:23 I think it's heading in the right direction.
10:18:28 I would like to chat about an example of how this
10:18:31 might work.
10:18:32 And then I'll elaborate on the concern I have, from

10:18:37 what I read.
10:18:39 Let's say, for example -- and I think it's a very
10:18:41 realistic example -- at BRITON plaza on south Dale
10:18:47 Mabry, that's an old shopping plaza.
10:18:48 We have others scattered throughout the city.
10:18:53 But that's an old plaza that's rape for somebody to
10:18:55 come along, level it, rebuild it and probably include
10:18:58 significant additional commercial as well as
10:19:02 residential in a mixed use project.
10:19:07 That's right on Dale Mabry.
10:19:08 So, you know, that's sort of a good thing, I guess,
10:19:11 something we want to encourage, something being a
10:19:15 potential transit corridor.
10:19:16 The problem that I could see is let's say somebody
10:19:20 comes in there and they say, well, we want to build
10:19:23 six-story condos on top of those stores and mixed use
10:19:27 environment, a thousand units.
10:19:29 I think that's very realistic, Terry is in the back
10:19:34 there and he might agree with me.
10:19:35 If that's the case, how would you see that project
10:19:40 coming through this process, okay?
10:19:45 And perhaps more importantly, if they can justify and

10:19:51 say, you know, we'll contribute toward the bus system,
10:19:57 the BRT system or even the rail system that may be in
10:20:00 our backyard on the rail line there, you know, and
10:20:04 therefore we want to add these thousand units, but
10:20:08 then the community around it, okay, those four or five
10:20:12 neighborhoods that surround it say, wait a second,
10:20:14 these people are still going to have cars, okay.
10:20:16 And we can't expand MacDill and we can't expand,
10:20:22 you know, El Prado or Euclid or the other smaller
10:20:26 streets surrounding it and you are just exacerbating
10:20:29 this South Tampa problem.
10:20:31 And that's -- and I use the example Britton Plaza.
10:20:37 I am not going to -- that's my concern at Rattlesnake
10:20:40 Point, the various acreages we have left down in Port
10:20:43 Tampa and south of Gandy, et cetera.
10:20:46 And you guys have actually identified those acreages
10:20:48 and those hundreds, thousand acres, no, hundreds is
10:20:56 probably more likely in South Tampa.
10:20:58 That's my concern in these, quote, in-fill areas.
10:21:01 And I would like to know, you know, how these policies
10:21:03 would address it, and going back to Julia, what type
10:21:06 of zoning, new zoning language we are going to have

10:21:10 that will be of these tools that we have been talking
10:21:13 about for three or four years?
10:21:15 >>> Well, I guess it's not really any different than
10:21:19 what's occurring now.
10:21:19 You do have the neighborhoods coming out and voicing
10:21:22 their concerns.
10:21:23 This time around, we will have policies where the
10:21:25 project will have to look at how the impacts of the
10:21:29 neighborhood are being created.
10:21:31 I do think that there's going to be a certain time
10:21:35 line, a balance between these systems.
10:21:38 It's the problem that all cities have, where you have
10:21:41 to have the density to support the transit.
10:21:44 But then at some point you have to start transitioning
10:21:47 from the vehicle to the transit system.
10:21:49 So I think what is going to assist us with this is
10:21:53 identifying these primary transit corridors, if we can
10:21:56 get a committed service to these corridors and have a
10:21:59 development coming in that a transit oriented
10:22:04 development, that is going to minimize the problem we
10:22:07 have with everything just being a vehicle oriented
10:22:09 development, and having just bringing in, now,

10:22:11 numerous cars that are now cutting through the
10:22:15 neighborhood.
10:22:15 So it going to be a phase that we have to go through,
10:22:21 to transfer these policies.
10:22:23 The code is not going to be an immediate, perfect
10:22:26 scenario, but it's definitely, like you said, heading
10:22:29 in the right direction.
10:22:30 And I think that there is going to be opportunity for
10:22:33 trying to make that growing pain as transferring from
10:22:37 completely vehicle oriented to a mixture that will be
10:22:40 more helped by these policies.
10:22:46 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My concern is this, sort of a
10:22:48 chicken and egg thing.
10:22:50 You know, I'll go back to that BRITON plaza example.
10:22:54 Yes, that's a perfect location for transit oriented
10:22:57 development.
10:22:58 TOD.
10:22:58 But my concern is, if that project came along and we
10:23:03 did allow more commercial and we did allow, you know,
10:23:06 these 500 or 1,000 units of new residential, on the
10:23:10 hope that that transit system might come along -- and
10:23:13 that's what we would tell the neighborhood, you know.

10:23:15 Well, don't worry, you know, that train is going to be
10:23:18 in the back there, within the next five or ten years,
10:23:21 or that BRT is going to come down Dale Mabry in the
10:23:23 next five or ten years, and, you know, and then it
10:23:27 doesn't.
10:23:28 But then we have given them forever permission to
10:23:31 build that thing out to that type of density and
10:23:34 intensity.
10:23:35 And that is what -- that's what concerns me greatly
10:23:39 about it's sort of a Pandora's box.
10:23:42 And when you say it's a lot like what we have been
10:23:44 doing, that's also what concerns me, because it seems
10:23:49 a lot like what we have been doing.
10:23:51 And I'll tell you, you know, everybody knows that
10:23:54 those first three or four years of my term, four, five
10:23:57 years ago, South Tampa was getting extremely upset by
10:24:02 the potential transportation impacts of these various
10:24:05 projects that we were approving.
10:24:07 >>JULIA COLE: Legal department.
10:24:09 There's a couple of parts to your questions so I am
10:24:11 going to answer it in a couple of different parts.
10:24:17 The policies require they be committed, corridors.

10:24:19 And as explained, we'll need to have some interlocal
10:24:25 agreements in place so we know there are corridors and
10:24:27 we build around where those corridors are, the types
10:24:30 of land use, amendments to the comprehensive plan or
10:24:35 amendments to allow for this.
10:24:36 But the one thing that it relates to, I think what I
10:24:40 hear you saying is this neighborhood mitigation
10:24:43 component because think -- as to what you have today.
10:24:49 In terms of the way mitigation works if newer those
10:24:52 light green areas, you will be essentially treated the
10:24:54 same with a little bit more teeth than you have today
10:24:56 because a lot of this stuff is really not been
10:24:58 codified in the way it needs to, and now you have it
10:25:01 very codified within your comprehensive plan with
10:25:03 these policies.
10:25:04 And yes, we will have to go through an entitle a
10:25:08 process to go through these to bring to the fruition.
10:25:11 It's required under statute.
10:25:12 >> How do you mitigate on these roads that are
10:25:16 constrained?
10:25:16 >>> on the roads that are constrained, being a
10:25:19 constrained roadway, will dictate the types of

10:25:21 mitigations you can do.
10:25:23 There's only certain things you can do on a
10:25:24 constrained roadway.
10:25:27 But this is the part that I think is missing, that you
10:25:29 are missing today that you have with these policies,
10:25:32 which is the transportation stuff is over here, to use
10:25:36 a non-legal term, and your land use stuff, your zoning
10:25:40 stuff is over there, and the tween are not meeting.
10:25:42 They are integrated now.
10:25:44 And if you look at the way these are and you see
10:25:47 neighborhood mitigation, that's a compatibility
10:25:49 question.
10:25:50 That is not necessarily a pure unadulterated, "you
10:25:55 have to pass the right-of-way" question.
10:25:58 There's in a tools today, there's no requirements
10:26:00 today, and neither your comprehensive plan or your
10:26:03 land development regulation that is deal with the
10:26:04 question of neighborhood impacts in the transportation
10:26:08 perspective, there's in a requirement that you do any
10:26:10 kind of study that looks at it from a local roadway
10:26:13 perspective and there's no ability every day on the
10:26:16 rezoning for transportation to be able to look and say

10:26:19 there's a problem.
10:26:20 Then there's no ability because you don't have the
10:26:22 evidence in the record for you to require anything.
10:26:25 This gives you the start of viability because now we
10:26:30 are saying we are going in these areas to maybe --
10:26:33 maybe allow increased development, if you are on one
10:26:36 of these transit corridors, if you can mitigate your
10:26:39 neighborhood impact.
10:26:40 But definitely going to be City Council's
10:26:42 determination.
10:26:44 You have the tools in place to say, now what?
10:26:46 You are not able to do that.
10:26:47 You will also have the information in place because
10:26:49 transportation will then be able to have a study
10:26:52 before them to review and then bring back to you with
10:26:55 recommendations.
10:26:56 Maybe there are some things you can do with the
10:26:58 neighborhood on a case-by-case basis that will make it
10:27:01 palatable in the neighborhood.
10:27:02 Maybe there is not.
10:27:03 But it becomes a compatibility question and you have
10:27:07 the tools in place to be able to say, that

10:27:09 development, giving evidence in this record, is not
10:27:12 compatible with this neighborhood.
10:27:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: You are very persuasive on this,
10:27:21 and you will be everyone more persuasive when we see
10:27:24 those regulations, the LDRs rolled out.
10:27:26 And I would hope that you will be working through the
10:27:30 fall knowing that we are going to adopt this, you
10:27:32 know, this winter.
10:27:35 And then that way we can roll these LDRs after we
10:27:39 adopt. This we don't have to wait to start till after
10:27:41 the winter.
10:27:42 >> I feel very confident that I have the -- we all do.
10:27:46 But I -- and I make that joke but you know what?
10:27:49 It is not fun for me to sit in front of you on weeks
10:27:52 to weeks to weeks basis.
10:27:54 It is personal from that perspective for me to say,
10:27:57 I'm sorry, you can't consider that.
10:28:00 I'm sorry, that's not really within your code.
10:28:03 It is important to all of us involved in this process
10:28:06 to make this work, because we understand the
10:28:09 frustration.
10:28:11 And because I really spend all of my time here trying

10:28:14 to get you to have defendable positions.
10:28:17 I really feel confident and comfortable that this is
10:28:20 getting you the start of that.
10:28:21 And, yes, the land development regulations are going
10:28:24 to be incredibly important and we do all recognize we
10:28:26 are going to be spending a lot of time on that.
10:28:29 We are probably going to have our consultant helping
10:28:31 us spend a lot of time on that because they have done
10:28:33 a really wonderful job ensuring and the actual
10:28:38 requirement that is we have, and the PCA and ensuring
10:28:40 that the PCA is complying with state law, that they
10:28:43 have put all the pieces in place.
10:28:45 I hate to get that excited about it but I really am
10:28:48 because I do get very frustrated saying to you, I'm
10:28:51 sorry, you can't consider that.
10:28:53 So I am very pleased with where we are.
10:28:56 And I do think it will give you a lot more tools.
10:28:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We'll take a leap of faith.
10:29:01 Thank you.
10:29:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions?
10:29:05 No other questions.
10:29:06 Okay.

10:29:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just think this is the best thing
10:29:10 that's ever happened in terms of shaping our city the
10:29:12 way we want it to be.
10:29:14 So thank you.
10:29:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you all for your presentation.
10:29:17 Public comment.
10:29:18 Anyone wish to address council?
10:29:20 Okay.
10:29:24 >> Thank you, Tyndall Oliver for your work on this as
10:29:28 a consultant.
10:29:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Our next workshop is not until 11:00
10:29:33 o'clock but we need to start on time.
10:29:36 We are going to be facing a time constraint issue
10:29:38 there.
10:29:39 So I would appreciate if we come back about five
10:29:41 minutes to eleven.
10:29:43 About 10:55, okay?
10:29:45 So we can get started on time.
10:29:47 With that, then -- let me read.
10:29:51 I have a memo from Mulhern.
10:30:03 Due to illness I regret I am unable to attend today's
10:30:06 council meeting, and ask the reason for my absence be

10:30:10 read into the record.
10:30:11 Therefore we are reading into the record from
10:30:13 Councilwoman Mary Mulhern.
10:30:14 Okay.
10:30:15 We stand in recess till 10:55.
10:30:18 (City Council in recess)
10:30:23 John Inglish.
11:01:54 [Sounding gavel]
11:01:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: City Council will now come to order.
11:01:57 We'll have roll call.
11:01:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
11:02:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
11:02:03 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
11:02:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
11:02:08 We are in the last workshop for the morning.
11:02:11 We will turn it over now to Ms. McLeod who will
11:02:16 introduce Mr. Inglish.
11:02:20 >>> Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the
11:02:21 council.
11:02:22 My name is Elaine McLeod, transit manager, City of
11:02:24 Tampa.
11:02:25 It is indeed my pleasure to introduce to you this

11:02:27 morning Mr. John Inglish who is the general manager
11:02:31 for Utah transit authority, UTA, located in Salt Lake
11:02:34 City, Utah.
11:02:35 Mr. John Inglish has volunteered his time this morning
11:02:39 to share with you some of the best practices and
11:02:42 lessons learned based on his experience in funding and
11:02:47 constructing light rail and commuter rail transit
11:02:49 systems in Salt Lake City, Utah.
11:02:52 Mr. Inglish has been in the transportation industry
11:02:54 more than 35 years, and he started his career in 1970
11:02:58 as an engineer with the Utah state highway department.
11:03:03 I would like to take a moment to share with you some
11:03:05 of Mr. Inglish's accomplishments over the years.
11:03:08 He was responsible for funding and constructing UTA's
11:03:13 15-mile, 312 million-dollar light rail starter line
11:03:18 called the track and completed it one year ahead of
11:03:21 schedule, and under budget.
11:03:23 He also is responsible for completing a $118 million
11:03:29 extension of UTA's light rail starter line connecting
11:03:32 downtown Salt Lake City and the University of Utah in
11:03:36 time for the 2002 winter Olympics.
11:03:40 Recently voted in Salt Lake City and Utah county voted

11:03:44 overwhelmingly to pass ballot initiatives to expedite
11:03:47 building 70 additional miles of light rail transit and
11:03:51 commuter rail transit.
11:03:53 This new funding will allow UTA to extend its light
11:03:58 rail transit system an additional 30 miles and the
11:04:01 commuter rail transit system an additional 44 miles.
11:04:05 And another key and very important point that I wanted
11:04:07 to point out is that Mr. Inglish spearheaded the
11:04:11 negotiation and purchase of the largest railroad
11:04:15 corridor land acquisition by a transit agency in the
11:04:18 United States consisting of 175 miles of Union Pacific
11:04:23 railroad right-of-way.
11:04:25 He sits on the board of governors for Salt Lake City
11:04:28 downtown alliance, and the Salt Lake Chamber of
11:04:30 Commerce.
11:04:31 He has chaired many committees for the American public
11:04:34 transportation association known as ATA and complete
11:04:41 add three-year term on the Board of Directors.
11:04:43 He's a member of the board of university of Denver
11:04:47 transportation alliance and the intermodal
11:04:50 transportation institute, and the executive board of
11:04:52 the intelligent transportation society of America.

11:04:56 Mr. Inglish is known nationally and internationally
11:04:59 for his ability to make transit projects a reality.
11:05:04 I'd like to present to you Mr. John Inglish.
11:05:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Welcome.
11:05:10 >> Thank you, Elaine, Mr. Chairman, council.
11:05:13 It's a pleasure to be here.
11:05:14 I noticed you had liquid sunshine prepared for me.
11:05:21 I expected to see that hot beautiful sunshine.
11:05:23 But it's been a little rainy but that's good.
11:05:26 We like the rain and we need it but thank you for
11:05:28 inviting me to share with you a little bit of the
11:05:30 story of Salt Lake.
11:05:31 It's very interesting but I must say a unique story.
11:05:34 You can glean from it what you will.
11:05:35 I think there are many lessons to be learned in some
11:05:38 of the things we have done.
11:05:39 This is not a project that -- this is not a project,
11:05:43 this is now a vision and a mission for our community.
11:05:46 It has transformed our communities' attitudes about
11:05:50 transportation, about population density, about land
11:05:54 use patterns, and all of those things.
11:05:57 And it's taken many years.

11:05:59 My career started in the mid 70s with public transit
11:06:03 in its early days and has involved to the point where
11:06:08 we are a pretty good sized transit authority, about
11:06:10 2,000 employees, and we have become very multimodal.
11:06:13 With that, I am not sure how to get this.
11:06:16 There it is.
11:06:18 I had to say something, I guess, and I'm ready to go.
11:06:21 You can see this is my city nestled in the mountains,
11:06:24 the intermountain region.
11:06:25 Those mountains go up 12, 13 thousand feet.
11:06:30 We feel very secure with borders.
11:06:33 I know just pushing at the borders.
11:06:36 But we -- those people who live there love that
11:06:39 community and it's a very family oriented community.
11:06:42 Let me make, if you will indulge me just very briefly,
11:06:46 I did this in memory of Elaine Miller.
11:06:49 You all new ray Miller.
11:06:53 I have a personal attachment to ray Miller.
11:06:55 Ray Miller was a bus operator in the Salt Lake system
11:06:58 when I was the director of operations back in the
11:06:59 70s.
11:07:00 He came to my office one day.

11:07:01 He was a graduate of Penn state, had a degree in
11:07:04 marketing but wanted to ski so he would come to Utah,
11:07:07 decided to be a bus operator.
11:07:09 But he tired of that I think and came to my office one
11:07:13 day and said I would like to be in management.
11:07:15 I said, well, don't have management positions.
11:07:18 I said I'll give you a project and see what you can do
11:07:20 and perhaps you will find a place for me.
11:07:22 I gave him a crack at it because we were growing
11:07:25 rapidly and he went away and I thought that's the last
11:07:27 I'll see of him, I solved that problem.
11:07:29 Well, he was back rate on schedule project, I said I
11:07:32 still have a position.
11:07:34 Said give me another project.
11:07:35 We went through that about three times.
11:07:36 Finally I said, this is just going to keep going if I
11:07:39 don't hire him.
11:07:40 So I hired him and ray Miller began his career in
11:07:43 management, and a wonderful career.
11:07:45 He was a great employee, never turned down an a
11:07:49 assignment and did everything.
11:07:51 I had him one day, said I need to you go down to the

11:07:53 most conservative county in the state of Utah.
11:07:56 They are thinking about an annexation to the public
11:07:58 transit district that's going to require a quarter
11:08:01 cent sales tax increase, going to send you down to run
11:08:04 the campaign. This is back in the days when you sort
11:08:06 of do that.
11:08:07 He did that and it was a successful campaign and he
11:08:09 then became the director of our marketing department.
11:08:12 Which worked for him.
11:08:13 But he soon needed to go on to bigger and better
11:08:17 things and he moved on to, I think, Columbus, Ohio,
11:08:20 Delaware, ultimately here and we were certainly
11:08:23 saddened with his passing, such a young man with so
11:08:27 much to offer to all of us and I'm sorry that he's not
11:08:29 here to help support what you are trying to do,
11:08:32 because he was a great visionary and could have given
11:08:35 you much advice and direction as his background gave
11:08:40 him a lot to work with.
11:08:41 But nonetheless, I do this in his memory.
11:08:44 So let me proceed.
11:08:48 I jumped over a bunch of things here, because this is
11:08:50 when it really gets critical.

11:08:52 In the mid 80s, youth is a crossroads city,
11:08:56 trucks -- it's on a major line from Mexico to Canada,
11:09:02 we have a lot of traffic congestion, we live in a
11:09:05 bowl, we have temperature inversions, we have over 100
11:09:08 red air alert days, that means serious air quality
11:09:11 problems that affect your health.
11:09:13 People with problems stay indoors.
11:09:14 And so we have some serious environmental issues in
11:09:18 spite of those beautiful mountains and what lass like
11:09:20 blue skies.
11:09:21 We have got 2 million population growing rapidly.
11:09:24 Another million people to be added in the next
11:09:28 probably 15 years.
11:09:29 So it is a beautiful area, but it will not continue to
11:09:34 be beautiful if we don't do something to take care of
11:09:36 it.
11:09:36 So back in the mid 80s, an environmental impact
11:09:40 statement was developed to rebuild the freeway through
11:09:43 the center of this metropolitan area, to widen it, and
11:09:46 it was a $1.6 billion build and we accepted up --
11:09:52 accepted up and said we are the transit authority.
11:09:54 We ran buses in the region.

11:09:56 And we said, do we want to be part of this
11:09:58 environmental impact statement?
11:09:59 And in fact we wanted to be part of it so bad, and
11:10:02 this was not common in the U.S. at that time for
11:10:04 transit agencies and highway agencies to be involved
11:10:06 together.
11:10:07 We said, we'll put up our half million dollars against
11:10:09 your half million dollars.
11:10:10 And so we became a part of the process.
11:10:13 And I think that's very, very important.
11:10:16 My career as you heard goes back to UDOT, state D.O.T.
11:10:22 The people I work with are people I started my
11:10:24 training with back in the 70s.
11:10:25 And so we have a good relationship.
11:10:28 We worked with the draft environmental impact
11:10:30 statement and what we found was there was a corridor
11:10:32 owned by the Union Pacific railroad that we could
11:10:35 purchase if we were willing to operate freight service
11:10:38 from midnight to five in the morning because there
11:10:40 were 30 freight customers.
11:10:41 We said that's a deal, we'll take it, we bought it.
11:10:44 And we set out to develop a light rail line.

11:10:47 The light rail line was critical, it turned out to be
11:10:49 a highway project, because the widening, increasing
11:10:53 the number of cars, increasing the air quality
11:10:56 problems, thus they needed environmental mitigation.
11:10:58 So the state couldn't build a highway project without
11:11:01 the transit project as it turned out.
11:11:04 Now, the minute we started talking about light rail,
11:11:08 the whole world seemed to come apart on us, because
11:11:12 the days of talk radio, nobody knew what light rail
11:11:16 was and nobody thought it was worth anything, and what
11:11:18 are we doing?
11:11:19 So this was the scene of the groundbreaking for the
11:11:22 first light rail project in Salt Lake.
11:11:26 And if you will read that sign, it says, light rail
11:11:29 kills children.
11:11:30 And there were other people walking around, light rail
11:11:34 kills babies.
11:11:34 I mean, this is what they did.
11:11:36 I had to stand in front of these kinds of crowds to
11:11:41 build this kind of system.
11:11:42 Now, we were very fortunate, because we had gotten the
11:11:47 full funding agreement to build this project.

11:11:50 We had gotten 80% of the capital cost to build this
11:11:52 project.
11:11:53 Now I will say a referendum in '92, people didn't know
11:11:57 what this was about but we were able to get 80%
11:12:00 federal money for the capital side.
11:12:02 Some think it probably would have something to do with
11:12:04 the Olympics.
11:12:05 I think it had a little to do with that but basically
11:12:08 this project was lind up before the Olympics really
11:12:10 were approved.
11:12:11 I think we would have built it anyway.
11:12:13 But it was fortuitous that we got that.
11:12:17 So we built the project.
11:12:19 This is the project, 15 miles, three miles through the
11:12:22 central business district, Salt Lake City.
11:12:25 And that was a chore because the city decided to tear
11:12:28 up the road 30 feet down and replace all of their old
11:12:31 pioneer days utilities that were underground.
11:12:34 And that created a chasm in the middle of the heart of
11:12:37 the business district, something I would just as soon
11:12:40 not do again.
11:12:40 So we have learned ways to deal around that.

11:12:44 But as you can see, 16 stations, 15 miles, it cost
11:12:49 $312 million.
11:12:50 Now that was a deal even in those days.
11:12:53 But when was all over with, we came in under budget by
11:12:56 something close to $20 million.
11:13:00 We were lucky.
11:13:00 We got the right contractors, had the right idea, the
11:13:03 right work ethic.
11:13:05 I don't know what it was but we came in under.
11:13:07 We didn't gold plate this thing.
11:13:09 It was a plain vanilla, off the shelf, existing level
11:13:14 right-of-way.
11:13:15 Started the construction in '96 and finished it a year
11:13:18 ahead of schedule, 1999.
11:13:20 But the other big important message here, under
11:13:22 budget, ahead of schedule, will get you all kinds of
11:13:25 special treatment later on, because if you establish
11:13:28 credibility, you can do it, people will trust you
11:13:31 where they might not trust somebody else.
11:13:33 If it comes down am I going to get my money there or
11:13:36 get my money there, you have to go with the entity
11:13:38 that's going got a demonstrated track record.

11:13:41 We were supposed to carry 14,000 people a day.
11:13:43 We now carry probably in the 55,000 range.
11:13:47 We had to buy used cars from San Jose and other places
11:13:50 in order to meet the demand.
11:13:53 We have got a fairly large fleet now that we are
11:13:55 operating on.
11:13:56 This was the opening day.
11:13:58 Let me tell you, I was worried would anybody show up
11:14:01 on a very, very 6-degree, you don't even know what
11:14:07 that's like here, 6-degree, snow on the ground,
11:14:10 December morning, will anybody be there at the grand
11:14:13 opening?
11:14:13 When I looked out at 10:00, ready to go out and cut
11:14:17 the ribbon, a lot of the dignitaries, the lines were
11:14:21 stretched around the block.
11:14:22 They went for -- there were thousands of people that
11:14:27 rode that day.
11:14:28 It was an instant, enormous success.
11:14:32 So we were up and running.
11:14:34 Now, we are on track for the future.
11:14:36 Now we are very multimodal.
11:14:38 You see the commuter rail line above the bus and light

11:14:40 rail and all of that.
11:14:42 And, you know, all of a sudden we were feeling pretty
11:14:45 proud of ourselves and pretty flush.
11:14:48 I think we were starting to get it.
11:14:50 And now what happens is, everybody wants one.
11:14:53 Now, if everybody wants a light rail line in their
11:14:56 backyard -- not in their backyard.
11:14:58 That's at problem.
11:14:59 But we have got communities now wanting light rail.
11:15:03 Everybody is taking credit for it.
11:15:05 You know, we are talking real systems.
11:15:07 But where is the money going to come from?
11:15:09 That means another sales tax referendum, which was
11:15:12 held within nine months of the opening of the first
11:15:18 line.
11:15:18 We held basically the same referendum we held the
11:15:22 first time. This one passed by 65% majority.
11:15:25 So we had public support.
11:15:26 The public said now I know what they are talking
11:15:28 about.
11:15:29 Now it makes sense.
11:15:29 This starter line is a little bigger than a typical

11:15:33 starter line but the starter line said, this is -- I
11:15:36 get it now.
11:15:37 This works.
11:15:38 I can get to work.
11:15:39 I can get to wherever I need to government it's fast.
11:15:41 It's reliable.
11:15:42 It's convenient because comes every 15 minutes.
11:15:45 So we learned how to deal with mitigating the
11:15:49 construction things in the corridor.
11:15:50 We went on from that.
11:15:52 We built a second line a year later. This was really
11:15:55 the line to the university in Utah.
11:15:59 And that line again was completed ahead of schedule
11:16:03 and under budget, $110 -- $118 million.
11:16:09 So we did it again and then we did it again across the
11:16:12 campus.
11:16:12 Now, this particular line was a brilliant line.
11:16:17 Let me back up.
11:16:19 I'd like to take credit for all of it but a lot of
11:16:22 people are involved in these things.
11:16:23 This line now has a 40% market share of all travel to
11:16:27 the university of youth, which is a destination for

11:16:31 65,000 people.
11:16:32 Now, it's not just the university.
11:16:35 It's a major university.
11:16:36 25,000 students.
11:16:37 But it is also a major research center.
11:16:42 It is a major intermountain hospital.
11:16:45 It's a hospital training center among many other --
11:16:49 many other activities that are going on there.
11:16:51 And we now have a university that is a commuter campus
11:16:55 that doesn't need the parking that it has.
11:16:58 It's a huge benefit to the university.
11:17:02 Moving on, if Olympics.
11:17:04 What can I say?
11:17:06 Without tracks, without the light rail system, we
11:17:09 could not have done it, I don't believe, for two
11:17:14 weeks.
11:17:15 The only way to move was on transit.
11:17:18 I call it the transit camelot, for two weeks.
11:17:22 4 million people.
11:17:23 We borrowed 23 light rail cars from Dallas from their
11:17:28 own light rail fleet.
11:17:29 We handled 15 -- on a typical evening in downtown Salt

11:17:33 Lake City, approximately 45,000 people would get out
11:17:36 of different events and want to go home at night and
11:17:40 we handled it.
11:17:41 We handled it without anybody waiting very long,
11:17:43 because we had the buses, we had the trains, we had
11:17:46 the wonderful cooperation of the state D.O.T.
11:17:49 Everything worked.
11:17:50 In fact we were written up in many magazines and
11:17:53 reports about how well it went, and I was even honored
11:17:57 to give a presentation to Congress on how this was all
11:18:00 done, because we knew it was a national high operator
11:18:03 to do well with this.
11:18:04 And we knew that when you don't do well with
11:18:07 transportation at Olympics you hear about it, as
11:18:09 Atlanta and other cities know.
11:18:11 So we were very proud that we were able to do this.
11:18:13 But at the same time appreciative of the extraordinary
11:18:18 levels of cooperation that were necessary to do it.
11:18:20 We learned a lot from Calgary and Sydney and a lot of
11:18:23 place that is have Olympics so we had a lot of
11:18:26 teachers.
11:18:27 This is our line as about a year ago.

11:18:30 In the meantime, don't have a pointer, but the line on
11:18:33 the left side has been extended down to our new
11:18:36 intermodal terminal, downtown Salt Lake City, about
11:18:39 two months ago, we opened our first 45-mile commuter
11:18:44 rail line. That lane was supposed to carry 5500
11:18:50 people a day.
11:18:51 It's only been in operation two months, carrying close
11:18:53 to 8,000.
11:18:54 And we are in the low part of the season, because the
11:18:57 university isn't open but the high travel period is
11:19:02 coming up in September and October.
11:19:04 But one odd thing that we did not prepare for, we are
11:19:07 finding that typically 20 bicycles on each car.
11:19:12 Double decker cars if you will.
11:19:14 And the lower level is essentially reserved for people
11:19:16 with wheelchairs and things like that but it's getting
11:19:18 crowded with bicycles so we have to deal with
11:19:20 bicycles.
11:19:21 We bought some more used cars from New Jersey so we
11:19:23 are kind of a used car kind of system.
11:19:25 But we have to do that to keep up with the demand.
11:19:28 So we are fortunate because these lines go to the

11:19:31 major attractions in Utah.
11:19:33 And football stadiums, the basketball stadiums, the
11:19:37 baseball stadiums.
11:19:38 We carry sometimes more people on Saturdays than on
11:19:41 weekdays.
11:19:43 This just shows, it's kind of hidden here but not only
11:19:46 do we have a very large market share at the University
11:19:48 of Utah, but the right hand graph is for the church
11:19:53 office building in Salt Lake City, about a 20-plus
11:19:56 story structure.
11:19:57 It house it is headquarters of the headquarters of the
11:20:00 LDS church, and we are somewhere around 57 to 60% of
11:20:04 all of their employees taking transit to work every
11:20:06 day in the downtown area.
11:20:07 And so we are beginning to make a difference.
11:20:09 A lot of people will tell that you transit only
11:20:11 carries a small percentage of total travel.
11:20:13 That may be true, total regional travel people go to
11:20:16 grocery stores and soccer games but when you get into
11:20:19 the areas where there is congestion transit makes a
11:20:22 huge difference and that's what we are doing here.
11:20:24 This is just a chronology of things.

11:20:27 You have got a copy of this.
11:20:28 I won't dwell on this but you can see, you go through
11:20:31 a lot of steps.
11:20:32 One of the critical things right there in the middle,
11:20:34 though, is in 1997, up to that point Utah is a very
11:20:42 conservative state and the question is how are we
11:20:44 going to support the land use patterns that go along
11:20:46 with this kind of transit system?
11:20:48 People are supporting transit but they want to know
11:20:50 how this all fits in our community.
11:20:52 And so, by the way, first we bought 25 miles of
11:20:58 railroad from the railroad to build our original line.
11:21:01 Thinking that that was a great idea, we decided to buy
11:21:05 175 miles of railroad.
11:21:07 But we bought all of the -- we bought basically 20
11:21:10 feet of right-of-way along all the main lines along
11:21:12 the -- that line is over 150 miles long there.
11:21:18 We own 20 feet of right-of-way, or sometimes we own
11:21:20 the whole right-of-way.
11:21:22 We bought some extensions.
11:21:24 We bought some further extension to the light rail
11:21:28 line.

11:21:28 In other words we end up with a lot of railroad, which
11:21:30 is our future, which is where we are going to build
11:21:33 the systems of the future, and the railroad at that
11:21:35 time was cooperating with us and we made the
11:21:37 acquisition.
11:21:41 We got problems now.
11:21:42 So let's start now talking about the challenges we
11:21:45 have got.
11:21:46 We are going to add a million people to our community
11:21:48 in the next 20 years.
11:21:50 We are urbanizing 80% more land.
11:21:52 We need new water resources.
11:21:54 We live on the water that's stored in the mountains in
11:21:56 the form of snow.
11:21:58 We have big problems with air quality.
11:22:00 Federal transportation funds.
11:22:03 We have crowd crowding and traps.
11:22:06 Families and businesses are struggling if we don't
11:22:08 keep the economy going and we have rising
11:22:10 infrastructure needs.
11:22:11 How are we going to deal with all of that?
11:22:13 Let me go on.

11:22:14 We have got, from a transit authority perspective we
11:22:17 now have a proven track record.
11:22:19 We have demonstrated our ability to deliver.
11:22:21 We have demonstrated our ability to deal with the
11:22:23 community, demonstrate leadership, and those kinds of
11:22:26 things.
11:22:27 So we have some tools that we can work with.
11:22:29 And out of that comes an organization called envision
11:22:32 Utah.
11:22:32 You may have heard of envision Utah.
11:22:34 It's known internationally as a very successful
11:22:39 approach to developing almost a cultural understanding
11:22:44 within a community of the need for smart growth.
11:22:47 Smart growth can stand for a lot of things.
11:22:50 Not extending it to the usual, you know, titles and so
11:22:53 forth.
11:22:54 We just believe in our community.
11:22:55 We need to grow in a smart manner, not in a haphazard,
11:23:00 uncontrolled, disorganized way.
11:23:02 So the governor of the state at that time, Mike
11:23:06 Levitz, said let's get everybody together to talk
11:23:09 about the problems.

11:23:09 So we got all the community leaders in one place.
11:23:11 War our issues?
11:23:13 Everybody had the same issues.
11:23:14 They are the ones I described earlier.
11:23:16 Interestingly have been has kind of the same idea.
11:23:18 We need to control growth and to make sure growth
11:23:20 occurs where it's efficient.
11:23:22 We got transit systems we have to develop of that we
11:23:25 don't have.
11:23:26 We need some master planning.
11:23:28 Off we went.
11:23:28 They looked at this.
11:23:29 As you can see, there's four scenarios there,
11:23:33 different levels of population density.
11:23:35 You start on the left.
11:23:36 That's just going the way we are.
11:23:38 You go all the way to the right we are starting
11:23:41 control growth.
11:23:42 We are starting to say we have in-fill, going to build
11:23:44 where transit can serve well, and now we have got to
11:23:47 take this to the public.
11:23:48 What are they going to support?

11:23:50 Well, sort of general attitude was they just want to
11:23:52 keep going like they are going.
11:23:54 That's not so.
11:23:58 These are some interesting statistics about how much
11:24:00 money you save and the good you do by just doing some
11:24:03 good planning.
11:24:04 And you don't have to go to one extreme or the other.
11:24:06 You can just plan a little bit and save yourself
11:24:11 millions of dollars. This is the most telling one.
11:24:13 Infrastructure costs between A and C, where -- this is
11:24:20 not everybody living in an apartment complex or
11:24:22 anything like that.
11:24:23 This is simply people in those areas, not sprawling
11:24:28 out there in the hinter lands as has been happening.
11:24:30 And you can see there is a $15 billion difference in
11:24:35 infrastructure, which is very significant to a state
11:24:38 that can't afford to educate its children properly.
11:24:43 Statistics have been going down.
11:24:44 Our classroom sizes are huge.
11:24:46 And I tell you, there's $15 billion that can go into
11:24:50 education and probably be a lot more effective for us
11:24:52 and people got that.

11:24:53 They said, oh, yeah.
11:24:55 We have to do something about this.
11:24:56 So this is the result of the public opinion pole.
11:25:00 And you can see the public did not vote for A and B,
11:25:03 which is business as usual.
11:25:04 They voted for C and D and mostly C.
11:25:07 Very intelligent choice.
11:25:09 That gave politicians the courage to start talking
11:25:12 loudly now about quality growth strategies.
11:25:16 So we have a very effective in vision Utah a group
11:25:20 that doesn't go out and tell communities how to be.
11:25:22 It simply goes out and provides tool kits, says here,
11:25:25 if you want to be this way, here's some zoning
11:25:27 ordinances, here's some principles you can follow.
11:25:31 Here's another way you can be.
11:25:32 You pick it.
11:25:33 You can continue to be what you are if you want.
11:25:35 There's no imposed requirement on anybody.
11:25:37 But pretty much everybody gets it.
11:25:39 We have a very strong metropolitan planning
11:25:41 organization.
11:25:43 It's multi-county, by the way.

11:25:46 And we got everybody in the room.
11:25:49 So when we are talking about salt Lake County's
11:25:51 problems, we in Davis county, which are adjacent
11:25:53 counties, are also talking about Salt Lake County
11:25:56 problems, and also talking about Davis problems and we
11:25:59 begin to realize that everybody's problems is
11:26:01 everybody's problem, okay?
11:26:02 And people get that.
11:26:04 Now, UTA has to change its attitude as the transit
11:26:07 authority.
11:26:08 We are not a state agency.
11:26:09 We are really an agency of local government formed in
11:26:12 the early 70s, around a regional approach to
11:26:18 transit.
11:26:20 I have a 15-person Board of Directors.
11:26:22 They are mostly lay people, businessmen, attorneys,
11:26:24 whatever, and they are appointed by local government
11:26:27 leaders.
11:26:29 It time to review a vision.
11:26:32 And the transportation system would get you where you
11:26:35 are going on time and all the usual stuff.
11:26:37 They said that's not what we are about anymore.

11:26:39 That's an important way to do it but that's not really
11:26:41 what we are about.
11:26:42 And I thought it was very enlightening that they came
11:26:45 up with this new vision.
11:26:46 We strengthen and connect communities enabling
11:26:48 individuals to pursue a fuller life with greater ease
11:26:50 and convenience by leading through partnering,
11:26:53 planning and wise investment of physical, economic and
11:26:55 human resources.
11:26:56 Now that's a different mandate for us.
11:26:58 And when we educate our people about that, we make
11:27:00 different kinds of decisions.
11:27:02 We don't make the technical decisions, the steel rail
11:27:07 needs to go there, we make a decision about if we put
11:27:10 the rail there, will it enhance this community's
11:27:13 connection?
11:27:15 It's about the economic.
11:27:16 It's about the social fabric of our community.
11:27:19 So we get a little different result.
11:27:20 This is what it looks like.
11:27:28 I couldn't see the pointer here.
11:27:31 It's a long narrow, 150-mile long and, you know,

11:27:35 between two and 15 miles wide, as you can see.
11:27:39 The lighter area there is known as the urban
11:27:42 population.
11:27:45 We are now starting to develop a regional master plan.
11:27:48 This is our highway, a major highway now.
11:27:52 These are new highways, new improvements that need to
11:27:54 be built.
11:27:56 A highway sign.
11:27:57 We are finding that we are very limited in how much
11:27:59 more highway we can build.
11:28:01 A, it's expensive.
11:28:02 B, it doesn't deal with environmental issues very
11:28:04 well.
11:28:05 And seems not enough land to build them on.
11:28:10 Here are some new bypasses that will have to be built
11:28:13 but every one of those is challenged by the Sierra
11:28:15 Club or somebody.
11:28:16 So they are not easy to build.
11:28:18 You have to deal with the environmental mitigations.
11:28:21 This is the transit system that is now being
11:28:23 envisioned.
11:28:24 You can see it covers most of that core area.

11:28:27 It's in those areas where the west congestion is and
11:28:30 we are finding people more than willing to shift out
11:28:32 of that car struck in traffic whale a train is going
11:28:35 by at 80 miles per hour having a hard time convincing
11:28:38 people to do that.
11:28:39 And this is our long-term objective to put every
11:28:42 resident, the 2 million residents along the WASATCH,
11:28:49 service every 15 minutes or so and will connect you
11:28:52 into the major network that will get you wherever you
11:28:54 are going along the WASATCH front.
11:28:58 That means the traffic and family operations, our new
11:29:02 commuter rail, started two months ago, more people
11:29:06 than we imagined and light rail, and lower right hand
11:29:11 is our new bus rapid transit called the max, operating
11:29:15 at about a 20-mile corridor on a major arterial, in an
11:29:19 outside lane with private signal, privatization, U
11:29:24 D.O.T. is in the process of building a separate guide
11:29:29 way, but it's working in the outside lanes and mixed
11:29:32 traffic so we started rather than delay.
11:29:35 We wanted to get it up and operating.
11:29:37 It does not go to the downtown area.
11:29:38 It connects to major rail stations.

11:29:40 And it takes a 45 to 60-minute trip by bus, it cuts it
11:29:48 down to about a 30-minute trip, 30 to 45 minutes
11:29:52 depending on traffic.
11:29:55 What is really critical about what we have been doing
11:29:58 as is local government support.
11:30:00 If we don't have them, mayors and councilmen 100%
11:30:03 behind us, it is very tough.
11:30:05 People are looking for leadership.
11:30:08 They are expecting it from the people they elect.
11:30:10 And if they hear it they'll follow, particularly on
11:30:13 this issue.
11:30:14 So the two MPOs got together, formed a 20-30
11:30:19 Planning Commission, and began to develop a very real
11:30:23 long-range plan.
11:30:24 It's interesting, when the MPO first put together a
11:30:28 long-rain plan a few years ago, it was all about
11:30:33 typical more highways.
11:30:35 Our local mayors just said, no.
11:30:39 The mayors stood up and said, I won't support more
11:30:42 highways.
11:30:42 Bring us a plan that has without highways and transit
11:30:48 and we'll support it.

11:30:49 And she thought she would be a lone voice.
11:30:51 All of a sudden others raised their hand, I feel the
11:30:55 same way.
11:30:55 And pretty soon it went around the table. That plan
11:30:57 was scratched and went back to the 2030 plan and came
11:31:00 forward with the two you see here which are a major
11:31:04 investment in public transit.
11:31:05 It's about an $11 billion program.
11:31:08 And on the left-hand side, and on the right-hand side
11:31:11 is a fairly aggressive highway program in the 17 to
11:31:14 $20 billion range, over 2030 period.
11:31:17 The highway people went to the state legislature to
11:31:19 get their money.
11:31:19 They are working on it.
11:31:21 They have had some success because they have local
11:31:22 government behind them.
11:31:23 And we went to local government and said how do we get
11:31:25 this?
11:31:26 And they went to the legislature and the legislature
11:31:28 said, go figure it out.
11:31:31 So they did.
11:31:32 They went back and said, you know what?

11:31:34 The only latitude we have is a property tax.
11:31:36 And the mayor choked, you know.
11:31:40 Oh, my gosh, I can't do a property tax.
11:31:42 Before we were done they had unanimously endorse add
11:31:44 property tax on the ballot, voted on by referendum.
11:31:48 They did that because it was the only tool they had.
11:31:51 And they knew that the program was more important than
11:31:54 even their political futures, I guess.
11:31:57 What happened was the governor and the Chamber of
11:31:59 Commerce and the legislature decided they would really
11:32:03 rather it be a sales tax, and they would really rather
11:32:07 it actually include another commuter rail and
11:32:10 extension.
11:32:10 So with about two months left before the ballot, they
11:32:13 held a special session called by the governor, flipped
11:32:15 it to a sales tax, added the additional money for the
11:32:18 additional line, they went to the public.
11:32:25 That's the plan, by the way, the transit plan.
11:32:29 They had extraordinary business community support.
11:32:32 Business community was 100% on board.
11:32:34 They put up three quarters of a million dollars for
11:32:36 basically the six-week campaign. and these are

11:32:45 businessmen who supported it en masse.
11:32:48 I don't know if you can see the pictures but these are
11:32:50 the -- the guy in the upper right hand, had the power
11:32:56 company, the University of Utah up there, the guy on
11:32:59 the left-hand side runs UPS, and the guy next to him
11:33:04 runs the biggest auto dealership in the state, the
11:33:07 biggest auto dealership in the state and owns the Utah
11:33:11 jazz.
11:33:11 Proposition 3, campaign, we have a severe traffic
11:33:17 congestion problem.
11:33:18 A lot of explaining.
11:33:23 I am kind of going quickly.
11:33:25 The result is 2 to 1.
11:33:27 Two counties that we ran this campaign in.
11:33:31 That meant both these projects -- I hope I'm not
11:33:35 giving you a headache flipping around.
11:33:37 This is basically it.
11:33:44 We committed to build four light rail lines, which you
11:33:48 can see, the red, the yellow, the green, and the other
11:33:52 orange line, and the blue line, which is a 45-mile
11:33:56 commuter rail line.
11:33:57 We committed to build that in 70 miles of rail in five

11:34:02 to seven years.
11:34:05 Hired all the contractors.
11:34:06 They are all under contract.
11:34:07 We have the top national contractors working with us.
11:34:12 Incentive-based programs.
11:34:13 We bought an office building in downtown Salt Lake
11:34:15 City that now has 350 engineers, designers, planners,
11:34:20 et cetera, who the contractor is working on this
11:34:25 because it is an important part of our philosophy that
11:34:29 everybody works together in the same room, I don't
11:34:30 care if you are the designer, contractor, it doesn't
11:34:33 matter.
11:34:33 You are all going to be elbow to elbow and if there's
11:34:37 an issue you the guy can throw a paper wad at him if
11:34:40 he has to to get that problem fixed.
11:34:42 So we have bought light rail cars.
11:34:44 It's the largest U.S. purchase of light rail cars from
11:34:50 Siemens, a German light rail car manufacturer.
11:34:53 Such a big deal.
11:34:54 The president of Siemens, GE, flew me to Utah to buy
11:35:01 me breakfast for buying all those rail cars.
11:35:04 I said that's not necessary.

11:35:05 We had a nice breakfast.
11:35:07 That's a large order of cars.
11:35:08 And close to a half a billion dollars.
11:35:12 But we bought all the steel.
11:35:13 We are buying all of the material for all five lines.
11:35:17 All at the same time.
11:35:18 And we will have all five, have currently all five of
11:35:21 them under construction.
11:35:22 And we'll open them all in five years.
11:35:24 Can you imagine this community will have more rail
11:35:26 transit per capita than almost any other American
11:35:30 city?
11:35:31 And now we are spending our time.
11:35:34 It wasn't mentioned but I'm on the UITP policy board
11:35:37 which is the international transit organization, and
11:35:40 I'm now spending time spending transit systems all
11:35:44 over Europe and race yeah.
11:35:45 We are at that point now we are getting the
11:35:47 foundation.
11:35:47 Next step is connect it together with trams, with bus
11:35:51 rapid transit systems, with street cars and all those
11:35:54 other kind of systems.

11:35:55 So we are really on a roll in our area and certainly
11:35:59 timely because of fuel prices and all the other issues
11:36:04 we are struggling with right now.
11:36:08 So elements of success.
11:36:13 Agency reputation.
11:36:15 It's critical.
11:36:15 We have got to have a reputation.
11:36:17 I travel around the country doing this a lot, because
11:36:21 it develops a reputation.
11:36:23 You have got to have public support, partnerships,
11:36:28 partnerships, partnerships.
11:36:29 We get along with our state D.O.T. and other partners
11:36:31 with the chamber.
11:36:33 Keep it simple.
11:36:35 So that people can see what they are going to get for
11:36:37 the money they are going to spend.
11:36:38 You have got to be relevant, timely.
11:36:41 One of our county commissioners in Salt Lake quoted
11:36:46 quite frequently, I want to ride it before I die.
11:36:51 That kind of hits home.
11:36:53 Ridership is just going up and up and up.
11:36:57 It's kind of a tough time right now, because fuel

11:36:59 prices are killing us because we use diesel fuel.
11:37:02 So we are putting surcharge after surcharge.
11:37:05 We are going that route on our fairs.
11:37:08 Because of the price of fuel, we are also seeing a
11:37:11 drop in the sales tax because the economy is soft and
11:37:14 people are not buying things.
11:37:16 So at a time when the demand for what we to is greater
11:37:19 and greater and greater, we are struggling to keep
11:37:22 surface on the street.
11:37:22 It's a very peculiar, awkward situation.
11:37:25 But I think we are coping with it.
11:37:27 And our fares are getting up there, where we are in a
11:37:30 longer a low fare system people having to pay to ride.
11:37:36 Now, the final slide here.
11:37:39 For me, this is what it's about.
11:37:41 And I am going to retire in a few years and ride off
11:37:44 into the sunset and probably never get on another bus
11:37:47 again, who knows?
11:37:48 But and my children, I have four children.
11:37:51 They are all fine, thank heavens, employed, educated,
11:37:56 making a living, which makes me feel good after some
11:37:58 of them I had serious questions about whether they

11:38:02 were of going to get to that point but they D.they
11:38:05 produced ten grandchildren for me.
11:38:06 My grandchildren are the vulnerable ones.
11:38:11 I can't take care of them.
11:38:13 I won't be around when they are grown and need jobs,
11:38:15 and need to really enjoy their lives to the fullest
11:38:19 and meet the quality of life.
11:38:20 But I think we can do something now to make sure that
11:38:24 the quality of their lives is what we would like it to
11:38:27 be for them.
11:38:28 What we have enjoyed.
11:38:30 Than means sacrifice on our part.
11:38:33 That means sacrifice on our community's part.
11:38:36 But I think we as a people are willing to make those
11:38:39 sacrifices, if we keep in mind the ultimate objective
11:38:42 is to make sure our children and our children's
11:38:45 children will have a good life.
11:38:46 And that's what's in it for me at least.
11:38:49 And I hope others see the same thing.
11:38:51 Thank you.
11:38:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I have some questions and then council
11:39:00 may have some.

11:39:00 Let me just raise a question, UTA, you have taxing
11:39:04 authority?
11:39:05 >> Only by referendum and even then we don't have
11:39:08 taxing authority.
11:39:09 We have built into what's called the Utah transit
11:39:11 district act that defines how a transit district can
11:39:14 be organized in the state of Utah.
11:39:16 And it allows certain levels of sales tax to be
11:39:19 implemented, but they can't K only be implemented by
11:39:23 the county councils.
11:39:25 County councils are the only ones authorized to put an
11:39:28 issue on the ballot.
11:39:29 And there are caps and purposes defining what the
11:39:34 money can be used for.
11:39:35 And so in that sense we cannot just impose it on our
11:39:39 own.
11:39:40 The county council has to put it on, has to go to a
11:39:43 public referendum.
11:39:44 When that happens it comes directly to us and it's our
11:39:46 money and we are not having to, you know, worry about
11:39:49 it disappearing at some point.
11:39:50 >> So in essence pretty much is that in order to do a

11:39:54 referendum you have to take it to the county council,
11:39:57 county commission, they approve it to go on the ballot
11:39:59 and it's voted.
11:40:00 I noticed that your first attempt was 1992 and it
11:40:05 failed as we heard across -- we know well, but was
11:40:13 there -- was there a match fund T-21 or anything of
11:40:19 that nature?
11:40:20 >> Yes.
11:40:20 >> I didn't see any of that in the documentation so I
11:40:23 wonder what was the match.
11:40:25 >> 92 was not our first referendum.
11:40:27 We had a referendum in the early 70s that formed the
11:40:30 district so all of the 60s six counties in the
11:40:33 district already had a quarter sense sales tax, there
11:40:36 was funding and things for the buses so as we were
11:40:39 anticipating the rail project we began to sort of
11:40:41 reserve resources for that so we have some money put
11:40:45 away.
11:40:45 Under the Reagan Administration, which is when this
11:40:47 '92 event occurred, the federal government was not
11:40:51 offering the statutory limits which was 80% on federal
11:40:54 transit projects.

11:40:55 You would do well to get 50% and that's why we went to
11:40:58 the referendum because 50% didn't do it for us.
11:41:01 When the Clinton Administration came in those barriers
11:41:04 were raised and we were able to get 80% federal money
11:41:08 on the capital side.
11:41:09 We had already bought the railroad.
11:41:11 And so we had gotten federal support for that.
11:41:13 By the way, I went through -- I and three others went
11:41:18 through six months of court, because for buying the
11:41:23 railroad after the failed referendum we were accused
11:41:26 of racketeering.
11:41:29 So add that to the picture that light rail kills
11:41:32 babies.
11:41:32 Get a sense of the community people at the time.
11:41:35 We got through all of that and was thrown out and
11:41:37 considered foolish anyway.
11:41:39 So there was not an issue.
11:41:40 But we already had the quarter cent sales tax.
11:41:44 When we were able to get 80% federal money we were
11:41:47 able to then capitalize the project and we had the
11:41:49 resources and made the adjustments in the bus system
11:41:52 and so forth to operate that line as a starter line.

11:41:54 But you will notice we opened it in '99 and in 2000 we
11:41:58 were back for that referendum and it passed then.
11:42:01 That allowed us not only to take care of that line,
11:42:03 but to add lines to the university and to the other
11:42:06 areas that we needed to go to.
11:42:08 And in fact on that particular ballot the first
11:42:10 commuter rail line was on that as well.
11:42:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 80% from the federal government?
11:42:16 >>> yes, good luck.
11:42:18 You won't get it today.
11:42:19 The $2.6 billion, though, because of our reputation,
11:42:23 we were able to go to the feds and say we are going to
11:42:26 build five lines.
11:42:27 We have got the funding.
11:42:28 We are going to build it.
11:42:30 We figure that your share -- well, it's not going to
11:42:36 be 80% obviously because Utah is already getting more
11:42:39 than its share of money.
11:42:40 So we are going to let you off the hook easy.
11:42:42 You give us 20% of this, these five projects, we'll
11:42:47 commit to build all five.
11:42:48 And that's where we are now.

11:42:50 That's the level of funding we are getting from the
11:42:52 feds.
11:42:53 Now this is a unique deal because we are building five
11:42:56 projects.
11:42:56 As you go out, I think one of the problems right now
11:43:00 at the federal policy level is the only people who are
11:43:03 getting any money for new starts are systems that are
11:43:06 already started.
11:43:08 Because they know how to do it, play the game, get the
11:43:10 numbers and get through the threshold.
11:43:13 Brand new system, there are no brand new starts right
11:43:16 now.
11:43:17 And you get some powerful Congressmen, and I would be
11:43:20 talking to them about that, because the new
11:43:22 transportation legislation I believe -- and I'm
11:43:24 cutting my own throat a little bit -- but I believe
11:43:26 new transportation has got to address that issue and
11:43:28 provide 80% federal money for new starts, new starts.
11:43:34 Then you get the ball off the ground and get it
11:43:36 rolling and people get on board.
11:43:37 Then you are on your own.
11:43:39 You go out and you have a better shot at building the

11:43:41 rest of the system.
11:43:42 But I think it's a problem in the policy level right
11:43:46 now.
11:43:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: One last question and I'll let someone
11:43:49 else under the 70-7 plan what is your cost?
11:43:53 >> 2.6 billion.
11:43:55 And we bond against the sales tax revenue is the way
11:43:58 we come up with it.
11:44:01 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: You are the textbook model of doing
11:44:04 it right.
11:44:06 I'm in awe.
11:44:08 But I have to tell you, some of us have been working
11:44:10 on this locally for over 20 years.
11:44:14 And we have come up against basically less urban
11:44:19 elected officials who have some previous plans.
11:44:24 So my question is a strategic one.
11:44:26 How were you successful in getting enough public
11:44:29 support to get the momentum going?
11:44:33 >>> We didn't hold the referendum in all six counties.
11:44:36 We only went after the counties that had real benefits
11:44:41 on it.
11:44:42 So in these referendums, most of them were held.

11:44:45 The first one was all six counties so everybody had a
11:44:49 base quarter cent sales tax.
11:44:53 Next referendum we held county by county so Salt Lake
11:44:56 County only approved the referendum in 2000.
11:45:02 Then we went two counties to bring in another county
11:45:06 for the commuter rail rain.
11:45:07 Actually ended up going four counties.
11:45:09 But we had been careful to select counties and
11:45:12 projects rather than, you know, had we list issues
11:45:18 system wide in 2000, and we might not have passed it
11:45:22 because the other counties weren't ready for.
11:45:24 >> one other quick question.
11:45:26 Does the university give students or staff, or does
11:45:28 LDS have some sort of encouragement association price
11:45:35 break on a monthly pass?
11:45:36 >>> Great question.
11:45:37 Let me explain two programs that we have, and we model
11:45:40 these a little after Denver and a few other systems.
11:45:42 We have an ecopass and an EB pass.
11:45:46 To give you an example.
11:45:47 We approached the University of Utah in, gosh, 15, 20
11:45:51 years ago and they were about to build some parking

11:45:53 structures and said, look, don't build parking
11:45:55 structures.
11:45:55 Tell you what.
11:45:56 You got 25,000 students here, another 10,000 faculty
11:45:59 and staff, we calculate they only collect $450,000 in
11:46:03 revenue from those people who are riding buses.
11:46:05 You give us $450,000, we'll give everybody on campus.
11:46:12 I'm impressed.
11:46:15 At the time they said, okay, let's do that.
11:46:16 They gave us $450,000.
11:46:18 We gave everybody a pass.
11:46:19 They figured out how to cover the $450,000 by raising
11:46:23 parking fees, a right way to do it, of course, in our
11:46:26 view.
11:46:27 That program then morphed into every college and
11:46:29 university in our service district has the same
11:46:32 program.
11:46:33 They were all different because one is a commuter
11:46:35 campus, one is not.
11:46:36 Today, I think we collect $3 million a year from the
11:46:41 university of Utah.
11:46:44 We have a 40% market share.

11:46:45 They have a light rail line running through the middle
11:46:48 of campus now.
11:46:50 They have taken some 6,000 parking spaces out of
11:46:53 circulation, it's a commuter campus.
11:46:55 In fact, the president of the university of Utah at
11:47:00 the time all of this was being done was Bernie Machen
11:47:05 who is the president of the University of Florida.
11:47:07 If you want an endorsement from him, he was a huge
11:47:09 supporter because he said the biggest problem in this
11:47:11 country for university presidents -- he was a grand
11:47:17 supporter of what we were doing and the payoff is that
11:47:20 we have these programs at colleges and universities.
11:47:23 We have a similar program only much more structured
11:47:25 with businesses.
11:47:26 So the LDS church, office complex, they buy at a set
11:47:31 rate, a tiered rate depending on how much transit goes
11:47:34 by your front door.
11:47:35 You pay an annual fee for all of your employees.
11:47:38 You must pay it for all employees, or all students.
11:47:41 It's a volume discount.
11:47:44 And everybody that has done that in one year will
11:47:48 double their transit ridership.

11:47:50 If it was 5% it will go to 10% F.it's -- that's
11:47:55 automatic.
11:47:56 We know that.
11:47:56 And then each year we ramp that up based on the
11:47:59 ability.
11:48:03 Now one of the problems, and we are about to implement
11:48:05 the world's first electronic contact payment system
11:48:09 which we developed with a firm in Belgium.
11:48:12 We have tested it on our service.
11:48:15 What's most important is this system which is unique
11:48:17 compared to other card systems which are used in
11:48:20 transit is this system will read anybody's credit card
11:48:23 from anywhere.
11:48:26 So it meeting all of the standards, financial standard
11:48:29 and so forth to read a card.
11:48:31 It will also allow all these university I.D. cards to
11:48:33 be read, and we will thus know who is riding, what
11:48:39 university they are from, where they are going, and
11:48:42 have it all.
11:48:42 And the move is in the next five years to move to a
11:48:45 distance-based fare collection system for buses,
11:48:47 transfer, everything, based on standard credit cards

11:48:50 with all the financing being done by American Express,
11:48:54 Visa, MasterCard.
11:48:55 We work with them.
11:48:56 They have given us the encryption codes we need to
11:48:59 make this work and the system will be up and operating
11:49:01 system wide by the end of the year.
11:49:03 So technology has got to be a part of the whole
11:49:05 package.
11:49:06 We can't leave that out.
11:49:13 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Inglish, for joining
11:49:15 us.
11:49:15 I wanted to express my appreciation for remembrance of
11:49:19 ray Miller.
11:49:20 I worked with ray over at our bus line, and miss him.
11:49:29 I also wanted to thank Elaine and also Councilwoman
11:49:33 Mulhern for bringing you here.
11:49:35 Ms. Mulhern couldn't be here.
11:49:37 She's under the weather and I know she's missing it
11:49:39 but I'm sure she's watching it at home.
11:49:42 One question I had related to the bus rapid transit,
11:49:48 BRT line, and I see that you emphasize that during
11:49:52 your presentation.

11:49:53 We have got a little bit of controversy brewing in our
11:49:56 community in that regard, because we are about to
11:49:59 implement two new BRT lines along our major corridors,
11:50:05 and our transit board is pretty excited about it.
11:50:09 It's going to cost a couple million dollars.
11:50:11 The county commission actually helped us fund that.
11:50:15 With sort of some local grant money.
11:50:19 I think it's a good thing.
11:50:20 I like everything that I heard about it.
11:50:23 And it's my understanding that -- and in reading the
11:50:26 article about you, that you can sort of convert, you
11:50:29 can start with BRT and then if it becomes a really
11:50:33 popular corridor and you develop the appropriate
11:50:35 density, that you can then convert on and possibly
11:50:38 into affixed rail system.
11:50:42 I guess the argument against it is, you know, don't
11:50:47 waste a couple million dollar now because you are
11:50:48 going to need that later to do your rail or something
11:50:51 like that.
11:50:52 But, anyway, if you could elaborate on that decision,
11:50:58 that might be helpful.
11:50:59 >>> That's an excellent question.

11:51:01 The answer is in the question, why does rail work?
11:51:07 And you build a light rail line on a corridor, you
11:51:10 have had buses all this time, and the corridor
11:51:13 ridership goes from, you know, 2 or 3,000 to 50,000.
11:51:17 Why?
11:51:17 Because the train is on steel wheels or rail?
11:51:21 Is that the magic?
11:51:22 No, that's not the magic.
11:51:24 The magic is this.
11:51:25 First of all, it's speed.
11:51:27 The train stops for no one.
11:51:30 Gates come down.
11:51:31 Cars are blocked.
11:51:32 Trains sail through.
11:51:34 Trains always have priority.
11:51:36 Even downtown the train has traffic signal operator.
11:51:39 Number one, speed.
11:51:40 Number two, reliable.
11:51:42 Our bus system is 80, 85% reliable, and that's a big
11:51:46 jump just in the last six months because of the
11:51:48 implementation of a GPS monitoring system that tells
11:51:51 the operator whether he's running on time, or not, by

11:51:54 the way.
11:51:56 Remarkable change in liability just by giving the
11:51:58 operator the tools to know where he is even though you
11:52:00 think he should know that anyway.
11:52:02 But so reliability, because the train is not having to
11:52:10 mess with anybody 99%.
11:52:12 I mean, you can set your watch.
11:52:15 There's not a problem or breakdown, which are very,
11:52:17 very rare, this system runs like you can't believe.
11:52:22 And number three, convenience.
11:52:24 Train comes every 15 minutes.
11:52:26 You don't have to have a schedule.
11:52:28 You know when it going to come.
11:52:29 And you just get on it.
11:52:31 There's usually going to be a seat although these days
11:52:33 not so much because we were starting with a two-car
11:52:36 train system.
11:52:37 We are now running four car trains.
11:52:38 We'll put a thousand on every train we are running
11:52:41 now.
11:52:41 Okay.
11:52:41 So how do I translate that into a BRT corridor?

11:52:44 I got to get speed, reliability, and convenience.
11:52:48 I can run the bus more frequently if it's stuck in
11:52:52 traffic all the time it doesn't do anybody much good.
11:52:55 Speed is the key.
11:52:55 Speed and reliability are the key.
11:52:57 How do I make a bus system faster, more relabel?
11:53:01 I have to have number one first thing out of the box
11:53:05 traffic signal prioritization.
11:53:07 I have got to have that.
11:53:08 We have to reeducate a whole generation of traffic
11:53:12 engineers.
11:53:13 But the objective of traffic engineer, traffic
11:53:15 movement is to move people, not vehicles.
11:53:17 Now, when they get that, then you will be able -- I
11:53:20 have to buy the controller, I have to buy everything
11:53:23 but there ought to be a federal law that says every
11:53:25 federal highway ought to have traffic signal
11:53:28 prioritization for transit.
11:53:29 It ought to be just automatic.
11:53:34 Now you.
11:53:37 If you get it, you have the first phase of the bus
11:53:40 rapid transit corridor, probably in my mind the most

11:53:43 critical element.
11:53:45 And you cut your travel time because -- and I'm not
11:53:48 talking about traffic signal preemption.
11:53:50 I'm talking about prioritization, we are sophisticated
11:53:53 enough now for traffic controllers to see a bus
11:53:55 coming, and to make a decision about whether to extend
11:53:58 the green to allow the bus through the intersection or
11:54:01 not.
11:54:02 We are running the express, semi express route,
11:54:06 passengers must pay before boarding.
11:54:07 That's a critical element.
11:54:10 That's how light rail lines work.
11:54:12 You pay on the platform.
11:54:13 That means the boarding should be under 20 seconds,
11:54:17 should be close to 10 second.
11:54:18 When we opened our BRT line, it was just opened, we
11:54:22 purchased special Belgian buses because it had three
11:54:28 doors on the side.
11:54:29 You want to get going.
11:54:30 So we are saving time in the stations.
11:54:33 Now, the next phase, of course, is to have a dedicated
11:54:36 right-of-way, and our D.O.T. is building us a

11:54:39 dedicated right-of-way on this corridor.
11:54:41 But they were a little late because it wasn't a high
11:54:43 priority for them and we said we are not waiting for
11:54:45 them so we have our line operating in the outside lane
11:54:48 and they are building actually under construction
11:54:50 right now, part of the line, a dedicated corridor.
11:54:54 When you build a dedicated corridor, you build it so
11:54:56 at some point in time it will accommodate a light rail
11:55:00 system, or streetcar, or whatever you are going to
11:55:02 use.
11:55:02 Why do you do that?
11:55:03 Why is streetcar superior or light rail superior to
11:55:08 buses?
11:55:08 When you reach the volume point as an operator, my
11:55:11 biggest cost bar none is labor.
11:55:15 I put a bus driver in the seat.
11:55:18 I can carry maybe 75 to 80 people.
11:55:21 I put up in a 4-car train.
11:55:27 A thousand people.
11:55:28 And all these start entering the equation.
11:55:31 So there is a point at which the lines cross and say,
11:55:35 get the buses out of there and let's get some trains

11:55:38 going on the corridor.
11:55:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's helpful, thank you.
11:55:42 One other question.
11:55:43 On the 7-70 plan are you going to get away from
11:55:46 diesel?
11:55:48 >>> You know, we are probably right now stuck with
11:55:51 diesel in the commuter rail corridor.
11:55:53 It would have been nice to have electrified but keep
11:55:55 in mind we try to keep these projects under control,
11:55:58 and to electrify those lines is $3 million a mile.
11:56:06 >> The new lines?
11:56:07 >>> the new lines.
11:56:08 At some point in time we'll do that.
11:56:10 All the light rail lines, the four light rail lines
11:56:13 are all electrified because we are building them new
11:56:16 and that's how you do it.
11:56:18 The commuter rail lines, the overhead because you have
11:56:22 crossings at grade and a lot of elements.
11:56:25 I'm seriously going to look at when we can convert to
11:56:28 electric.
11:56:29 There's a lot of benefits to electrical propulsion
11:56:32 systems, acceleration curves, just the way to

11:56:36 ultimately go, the way most European systems and
11:56:38 ultimately high speed systems are out there.
11:56:40 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you so much for coming.
11:56:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions?
11:56:48 >> (off microphone).
11:56:51 >>> Or you have to have a fully protected overhead.
11:56:56 There's a new system in France that I haven't seen yet
11:57:00 where they kind of slot in the corridor and they bury
11:57:03 the power lanes so the train has a pickup in a slot.
11:57:06 It seems to work pretty well.
11:57:08 We are going to be studying that.
11:57:11 We are enamored with that with streetcar lines but
11:57:14 light rail it has to be overhead because we have 30
11:57:18 intersections, crossings of our 15-mile line rail.
11:57:23 And some of them are a major process.
11:57:24 In fact one of the big issues early in the debate was,
11:57:27 oh my gosh, you are going to put the gates down and
11:57:30 traffic is going to be backed up across the valley.
11:57:32 Not so because the train is going through an inter,
11:57:34 the gates are down 40 second and that's only every
11:57:38 seven minutes.
11:57:40 But you have to have an overhead at least initially

11:57:44 until they come up with some other technology.
11:57:46 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: On page 20, how many children got
11:57:49 killed?
11:57:54 >>> In the early days we ran some pretty gruesome
11:58:01 safety -- because we wanted to scare the heck out of
11:58:04 people, because people are used to railroad, freight
11:58:07 trains, that take forever and all of that.
11:58:09 These things don't.
11:58:10 These are whipping through.
11:58:11 They are coming in and going out, you know, 100 yards
11:58:16 outside the station.
11:58:18 They are going 55 miles an hour.
11:58:20 You don't want to get on there.
11:58:23 And we have had a few problems.
11:58:25 But relatively very few.
11:58:28 Our biggest problem is suicide.
11:58:31 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It doesn't usually rain here.
11:58:35 It's usually absolute perfection and we would like you
11:58:37 to consider to move to our area and heading up our
11:58:40 effort.
11:58:41 Because your expertise is so profound and we need
11:58:43 professional help.

11:58:44 >>> Well, you have wonderful people here, and you need
11:58:48 to give them -- I'll tell you, one of the things that
11:58:52 I had, that my board has given me the latitude to do,
11:58:55 is to travel, is to see -- in fact, in my contract, it
11:58:58 says travel outside the country because that's where
11:59:04 the technologies are so you have done that and had
11:59:07 that experience from early in my career.
11:59:08 I have seen great systems in how they work and
11:59:11 hopefully everybody able to share that.
11:59:13 >> Has your board traveled?
11:59:17 >>> Yes, my board travels.
11:59:18 Not as much.
11:59:19 I have staff that travels.
11:59:20 I have people involved in international committees and
11:59:22 things like that.
11:59:23 And only take the council hit in the newspapers.
11:59:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
11:59:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, thank you again for an excellent
11:59:35 presentation.
11:59:35 And thank you for being here today.
11:59:36 >>> Thank you for having me.
11:59:38 I hope this helps and I'm not too far away if you need

11:59:43 some advice, free advice.
11:59:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:59:46 Public comment.
11:59:47 Anyone wishing to address council may come forward at
11:59:49 this time.
11:59:51 Okay.
11:59:51 Seeing none.
11:59:52 Okay.
11:59:53 Thank you again.
11:59:54 And council, we are --
11:59:57 >> Receive and file.
11:59:58 >> Second.
11:59:58 (Motion carried).
12:00:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Real quickly.
12:00:04 I would like a report next week from legal on the
12:00:07 Garrett school situation.
12:00:10 That's a motion.
12:00:11 >> Second.
12:00:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
12:00:14 It's my understanding that they are supposed to be
12:00:19 tomorrow morning, code enforcement.
12:00:21 That's my understanding.

12:00:27 >>SAL TERRITO: There is a special meeting tomorrow,
12:00:30 code enforcement so we should have something hopefully
12:00:32 resolved tomorrow and then get a report to you.
12:00:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion on the floor.
12:00:36 All in favor?
12:00:38 (Motion carried).
12:00:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Secondly there's an article in the
12:00:41 paper today, wastewater aquifer.
12:00:45 I would like a report on that next week, staff report.
12:00:47 Because it's policy and a council issue and I want to
12:00:51 hear what's going on.
12:00:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
12:00:57 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I don't know how pressing it is but
12:01:01 is that sufficient time for staff to do?
12:01:03 Do you want staff to appear?
12:01:05 >> We can hear what they are doing.
12:01:07 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Okay.
12:01:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion and second.
12:01:09 (Motion carried)
12:01:11 So moved.
12:01:12 Any other new business?
12:01:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, in council member Mulhern's

12:01:20 absence I want to bring to your attention she gave awe
12:01:24 copy of the resolution regarding the formation of the
12:01:27 citizens advisory Budget and Finance Committee.
12:01:30 She's going to ask you to take that up next week.
12:01:33 It will be on the agenda.
12:01:36 Finally, council, I had an opportunity to discuss with
12:01:39 you and/or your aides regarding your availability.
12:01:43 I have been able to secure the children's board and
12:01:45 the same facilitator, the strategic planning meeting
12:01:48 for Tuesday, August 19th, from nine to noon.
12:01:52 And I will get that underway.
12:01:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Do we need to take any action on that?
12:01:57 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I can perhaps next week I'll ask
12:01:59 you to take action on that.
12:02:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
12:02:02 Do you have anything?
12:02:05 Okay.
12:02:05 Then CRA is meeting at 1:30 right here.
12:02:10 CRA meeting at 1:30.
12:02:12 Next week.
12:02:13 Okay.
12:02:14 Well, we are adjourned till this evening then.

12:02:16 Thank you.
12:02:17

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