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TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, November 6, 2008
6:30 p.m. session

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[Sounding gavel]
18:33:34 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Tampa City Council will now come to
18:33:37 order.
18:33:37 We'll have roll call.
18:33:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
18:33:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
18:33:44 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
18:33:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
18:33:49 For the record we have a memorandum from Councilwoman

18:33:53 Gwen Miller, please be advised that I will be absent
18:33:55 from the 11-6-08 TECO hearing scheduled for 6:30 in
18:34:01 the evening due to a previous engagement.
18:34:03 Thank you in advance for your attention to this
18:34:05 matter.
18:34:06 Again this is from Councilwoman Gwen Miller.
18:34:17 The city attorney will come now and make a
18:34:20 presentation.
18:34:20 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, did you want to open --
18:34:23 actually one of the public hearing but you can open
18:34:26 both of them.
18:34:27 They will both have discussion.
18:34:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: For the public tonight, vote for them
18:34:31 at the same time, so open both of them at the same
18:34:34 time, open one at a time.
18:34:37 Both one and two.
18:34:39 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
18:34:43 Opposes?
18:34:43 Okay.
18:34:45 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: City attorney.
18:34:56 Excuse me if I clear my throat occasionally.
18:34:59 I seem to be having the same affliction as a lot of

18:35:01 other people in my office and lost my voice a little
18:35:04 bit.
18:35:05 Basically, we went over the agreement last time, the
18:35:08 basic terms, our general view of the agreement.
18:35:13 Based on some of the comment at that meeting and some
18:35:15 of the questions I received from council members, and
18:35:20 members of the public, I would like to take just a
18:35:22 couple of minutes and talk about the legal framework
18:35:27 in which we are looking at this franchise agreement,
18:35:30 and hopefully that will address some of the questions
18:35:32 we have had last time.
18:35:35 If we can pull up the PowerPoint presentation, please.
18:35:39 Thank you.
18:35:42 Essentially what I would like to bring to your
18:35:48 attention is the position of the Florida Supreme Court
18:35:52 that the state regulation of electric utilities
18:35:54 essentially preempts the city's ability to regulate
18:35:57 their rates.
18:35:58 I think that's something that we talked about last
18:36:00 time that we all understand and the legislature is
18:36:06 pretty clear, like it or not this is not something we
18:36:08 have the ability to regulate.

18:36:10 Well, as a base you can principle, that's, I think,
18:36:14 something we have come to understand.
18:36:15 But I bring your attention to this Florida power
18:36:19 corporation versus Seminole County case, because it
18:36:22 speaks to something that goes a little bit beyond, I
18:36:25 think, the plain reading of the statute and that is
18:36:30 essentially that anything that is included in a
18:36:32 franchise agreement that substantially impacts the
18:36:36 rates of the rate payers in the service area is
18:36:40 precluded from the franchise agreement.
18:36:43 So in this particular case, in the Seminole County
18:36:46 case, what the Supreme Court said was that requiring
18:36:50 undergrounding, which was negotiated as part of a
18:36:56 franchise agreement was outside the scope of in this
18:36:59 case the county's ability, and was void.
18:37:02 So in fact that franchise agreement, that element of
18:37:06 it wasn't valid.
18:37:07 So what this does is unfortunately take off the table
18:37:14 in my view a substantial portion of the broader issues
18:37:20 that we might like to get into as a city, such as
18:37:22 regulating the source which power may come from,
18:37:25 regulating other activities, that may have significant

18:37:30 increased cost and forces us to focus on the primary
18:37:34 element of the franchise agreement which is an
18:37:37 agreement and payment for use of the city's
18:37:39 right-of-way, as a property owner, the city makes that
18:37:42 land available, and will make available under certain
18:37:46 terms in the franchise agreement, and you are
18:37:48 compensated for those costs associated that the city
18:37:51 bears for making that right-of-way available.
18:37:53 That's the basic concept of the franchise agreement.
18:37:55 Now, that's not to say that the city can't get
18:37:58 involved in renewable energy and conservation and
18:38:01 other activities.
18:38:04 There is as I see it three basic areas in which the
18:38:07 city can.
18:38:08 One is as a market actor, meaning we can develop and
18:38:13 market renewable energy, renewable resources, to TECO,
18:38:18 to other power companies.
18:38:20 We can sell it wholesale, and also we can act in our
18:38:25 facilities to improve conservation and use that
18:38:27 renewable energy within our own facilities, to
18:38:34 different facilities we own, and we can do other
18:38:36 activities that may generate energy from renewable

18:38:39 sources.
18:38:41 Also as a policy advocate, we have been involved in
18:38:45 Public Service Commission regulation of renewable
18:38:48 energy and creation, hopefully, of a real renewable
18:38:51 energy market.
18:38:52 We think that's an important public policy development
18:38:56 for Florida, it also benefits the city because of its
18:38:59 operation of MacKay Bay.
18:39:01 McKay's bay refuge energy facility is a significant
18:39:05 source of revenue for the city and to the extent that
18:39:07 there is an improved or expanded market for renewable
18:39:09 energy, renewable energy credits, that gives the city
18:39:13 additional revenue opportunities.
18:39:16 Finally, we would have, as a policy advocate for this
18:39:20 new administration, I believe an opportunity perhaps
18:39:22 seek additional federal renewable energy requirements,
18:39:26 or federal renewable portfolio standard.
18:39:29 I suspect our friends here from the power industry
18:39:32 would perhaps have a different perspective on that
18:39:34 issue, but that is also an opportunity that we are
18:39:38 looking at pursuing and becoming involved in should
18:39:41 that be part of the federal debate on energy.

18:39:44 And finally, as a community leader, we have the
18:39:47 ability for conservation and I think we talked about
18:39:51 that quite a bit, as we had various meetings for green
18:39:59 activities and I think Mr. Snelling discussed as a
18:40:04 member of the review a couple of weeks ago.
18:40:10 I also wanted to mention we do have a lawyer who has
18:40:16 been working on renewable energy credits before the
18:40:20 Public Service Commission.
18:40:21 We are also looking at engaging in the legislative
18:40:24 process so you are all aware that renewable energy
18:40:28 system, renewable energy credits and portfolio
18:40:30 standard will likely go back to the Florida
18:40:32 legislature.
18:40:33 It is my recommendation that the city become engaged
18:40:35 on that issue, and we intend to do that, as that issue
18:40:38 moves back to the legislative arena.
18:40:42 Finally, this is just a short list of some of the more
18:40:45 innovative things that we have in the works of the
18:40:48 city, some of which I think you have been briefed on,
18:40:50 some of which you may not have, because they are in
18:40:53 very early stages, but MacKay Bay refuge energy
18:40:58 facility will have for you today an extension of that

18:41:00 contract for 13 years, will continue to provide
18:41:04 renewable energy to TECO, in that facility.
18:41:10 The public works --
18:41:14 >> Do we have that?
18:41:16 >>> I can make copies available for you, but it was
18:41:19 included in the agenda.
18:41:23 We are in the public works department looking at bio
18:41:27 solid gasification, both at the wastewater plant and
18:41:30 some other facilities there, that's in the very early
18:41:32 stages, but something that the wastewater department
18:41:34 is very excited about.
18:41:37 I have been looking at opportunities for basically
18:41:42 secured carbon offsets, another opportunity we may
18:41:45 have to have some green benefits and some revenue
18:41:48 enhancements.
18:41:50 And then finally as we mentioned prior improving
18:41:53 conservation.
18:41:54 So I did want to state Tampa stage as indicated, the
18:42:03 focus of that is our authority to regulate the
18:42:06 right-of-way and provide that to the power companies
18:42:10 for provision of electric service and their
18:42:12 compensation to the city for that ability to use

18:42:16 right-of-way.
18:42:17 In my view, the broader issues that came up at the
18:42:20 last meeting related to renewable energy, and to a
18:42:24 lesser degree conservation.
18:42:25 I think outside the scope of this agreement, and I
18:42:27 would hope that you, while we can look at those and
18:42:30 discuss those and look at those in collateral
18:42:33 processes, or agreements in terms of conservation,
18:42:36 that he would focus on what the core of the franchise
18:42:41 agreement is.
18:42:43 Thank you.
18:42:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Fletcher in, summary, have you
18:42:52 had an opportunity to loop at, for example, what
18:42:55 Florida Power and Light did in south Florida, which is
18:42:58 that they voluntarily offered to pick up 25% of the
18:43:01 cost of converting overhead utility to underground?
18:43:05 That's part of their agreement with their constituent
18:43:09 municipalities.
18:43:09 They weren't precluded from it.
18:43:11 I think the special wording we need to focus on is
18:43:22 perhaps require TECO to do these things just as
18:43:25 communities south Florida were frustrated because

18:43:29 their lines came down two times with hurricanes.
18:43:32 FPL recognized the community concern and they rose to
18:43:36 the occasion.
18:43:37 So what I'm suggesting is not that he would force
18:43:40 Tampa Electric Company to do anything, it that they
18:43:42 recognize the energy field is the most dynamic field
18:43:47 in the world, and that they are asking for a very long
18:43:51 contract, and that we give them time to voluntarily
18:43:53 rethink what they offer to the City of Tampa.
18:44:02 >>> If I may speak to that for a moment.
18:44:04 TECO can, if they want, a dress that, but the power
18:44:09 company would have had to have Don to the power
18:44:11 commission and had those expenditures somehow worked
18:44:13 into their rate system.
18:44:16 Whether that was through operation and maintenance or
18:44:19 other types of existing rate structure.
18:44:21 I don't know in that case how they accounted for that.
18:44:24 But in any event, those expenditures would have had to
18:44:26 have been, if they are passed onto the rate payers,
18:44:30 accounted for and demonstrated to be prudent and
18:44:33 useful to the present rate payers, and if it came out
18:44:38 of their profit, again, it would have had to have been

18:44:41 evaluated I believe again as well, because it is their
18:44:45 evaluated rate of return that the public service
18:44:47 commission identified.
18:44:48 So that part of that would have to occur at some
18:44:50 point, even if TECO here today were to agree to do
18:44:53 that.
18:44:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So, then, Mr. Fletcher, one more time,
18:45:00 as we look at this franchise agreement tonight, two
18:45:02 issues that we need to focus on here again is the
18:45:08 MacKay Bay agreement and the franchise agreement and
18:45:10 the compilation, those things off the table is what
18:45:17 you are saying.
18:45:17 >>> In my view, yes, sir.
18:45:20 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I want to be clear so everyone knows
18:45:22 what the focus is.
18:45:25 Does that conclude your presentation?
18:45:27 Any other questions by council to Mr. Fletcher?
18:45:30 Let me hear from a TECO representative at this point.
18:45:32 You have five minutes.
18:45:38 >>> Good evening.
18:45:39 Thank you Chairman Scott and City Council members.
18:45:41 Tom Hermandez, Tampa Electric Company.

18:45:50 Thank you for letting me speak to the franchise
18:45:52 agreement.
18:45:52 This agreement is the product of significant and
18:45:54 deliberate negotiations by the city administration and
18:45:57 Tampa Electric senior management.
18:45:59 Assisted by our respective staff and legal and
18:46:04 regulatory experts.
18:46:05 We are asking you to approve this agreement tonight
18:46:06 and seek final approval in two weeks in accordance
18:46:09 with your established procedures.
18:46:12 The negotiations began in early 2005, with the first
18:46:16 meeting between the city administration and Tampa
18:46:18 Electric Company officials to establish both the
18:46:21 process and the schedule on May 20th, 2005.
18:46:27 The unusually goal was to complete negotiations and
18:46:30 modifications to the franchise agreement well in
18:46:32 advance of the expiration date of September 1st,
18:46:36 2006.
18:46:39 Once a comprehensive list of potential issues were
18:46:41 developed we jointly established the technical working
18:46:44 group of subject matter experts to clarify and
18:46:46 understand each issue, and to identify areas of

18:46:50 concurrence and difference.
18:46:53 The expanded issues and subsequent discussions between
18:46:56 the city and Tampa Electric officials led to a first
18:46:59 draft of the agreement prepared by the city in the
18:47:01 fall of 2005.
18:47:05 The initial draft was the basis for numerous meetings
18:47:08 over the following three years, between the city and
18:47:12 Tampa Electric involving several departments, staff
18:47:15 members, senior level officials, and the city mayor
18:47:18 and the Tampa Electric Company president.
18:47:22 The franchise agreement was modified several times
18:47:24 during this period to reflect consensus decisions,
18:47:29 operations, policies and legal terms of conditions
18:47:32 that are contained within the signed agreement under
18:47:34 consideration today.
18:47:36 As you know, Tampa Electric has continuously provided
18:47:39 services to the City of Tampa since 1899.
18:47:44 We are a good corporate citizen, with great people,
18:47:47 that provide leadership in the communities we live,
18:47:51 serve and support.
18:47:52 We see continued improvement in all that we do, and we
18:47:56 are responsible industry leaders in energy

18:47:58 conservation, environmental stewardship and community
18:48:02 involvement.
18:48:03 If I may, I would like to introduce Howard Bryant,
18:48:06 manager of regulatory affairs, and subsequently Brian
18:48:09 burrs, manager of area programs, and Dan decrasier,
18:48:12 manger, community relations, for this meeting and
18:48:22 other prior workshops and the role of the council
18:48:24 members to address specific issues related to our
18:48:26 discussion.
18:48:27 Howard, if you would come up.
18:48:29 >>> Thank you, Tom.
18:48:33 Again I do appreciate the opportunity as Tom has said
18:48:36 to have the chance to share with you specific areas as
18:48:40 to what Tampa Electric Company has done over many
18:48:42 years in the area of conservation and renewable
18:48:45 energy.
18:48:46 I'm sorry, Howard Bryant, Tampa Electric Company,
18:48:48 manager in regulatory affairs.
18:48:51 I apologize for that.
18:48:52 One of the things that I think I will end up being
18:48:54 able to do is complement what Mr. Fletcher indicated
18:48:58 earlier in terms some of things that Tampa Electric

18:49:00 has done and can do in the city as it relates to
18:49:03 energy conservation in specific.
18:49:04 But also I want to help you understand what we are
18:49:06 doing in the area of renewable energy.
18:49:09 Brief history, the company began its energy
18:49:12 conservation efforts in the mid to late 1970s,
18:49:15 before the Public Service Commission had required that
18:49:18 to actually take place.
18:49:19 We began by working in the residential marketplace,
18:49:22 and the effort was one to influence the building
18:49:25 community to begin building on a mass scale basis, if
18:49:28 you will, more efficient homes.
18:49:30 In 1981, the commission began its specific regulation
18:49:34 of utilities in the area of conservation, and we were
18:49:37 a part of that.
18:49:39 By 1989, which is the first period of goal setting
18:49:43 time that the commission had established, Tampa
18:49:45 Electric was the only utility to have accomplished all
18:49:48 of its conservation goals during that time period.
18:49:54 That has continued certainly through 2007 to 2008
18:49:57 currently.
18:49:58 But just a little milestone to help along the way to

18:50:00 indicate that we have continued our efforts in
18:50:02 conservation.
18:50:03 In 2006, there is an organization in the Department of
18:50:06 Energy, at the national level, called the energy
18:50:10 information administration, EIA, and they keep a
18:50:14 ranking of utilities in the nation as to how they
18:50:17 perform against each other.
18:50:18 And three utilities in the State of Florida, for a
18:50:21 five-year term period, were in the top ten and those
18:50:24 were Florida Power and Light, number one over that
18:50:26 time period, number two was Progress Energy -- I say
18:50:31 number two, that wasn't their position but they were
18:50:33 the second utility.
18:50:34 I believe they were third or fourth in the top ten.
18:50:36 And Tampa Electric was seventh or eighth.
18:50:39 Even if you were to go and include Gulf power
18:50:44 corporation kept all the investor owned utilities
18:50:46 within the top 30.
18:50:47 So that speaks, to me, of what the commission has
18:50:52 charged the utilities to do.
18:50:54 And the effort that they have put forth in managing
18:50:56 conservation and recognizing that it's a valuable

18:50:59 resource for the state.
18:51:04 Our results that we have accomplished through 2007, we
18:51:09 have avoided some 220 megawatts.
18:51:15 And that buzzer means -- help me?
18:51:18 >> Your time is up.
18:51:19 How many more minutes do you need?
18:51:21 >>> I can -- let me sum it up in a minute.
18:51:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
18:51:27 >>> If I could.
18:51:28 I was going to provide -- I think this will be helpful
18:51:31 just to take a look at the number of programs that
18:51:38 Tampa Electric has.
18:51:39 If that's doable, what you will notice is Tampa
18:51:42 Electric has 15 residential programs compared to
18:51:47 Progress Energy's 13, Florida Power and Light has
18:51:49 nine, Gulf power has five.
18:51:52 One other piece of information just to help you out
18:51:57 with the understanding is what are we doing in the
18:52:01 area of commercial?
18:52:03 We have 20 programs.
18:52:06 Progress Energy has 15.
18:52:08 Florida Power and Light 19.

18:52:09 And Gulf power has two.
18:52:12 So we are in the leading forefront of doing
18:52:14 conservation in terms of programs.
18:52:16 One last piece of the puzzle is to indicate what
18:52:20 incentives have been.
18:52:26 This particular chart focuses strictly on the
18:52:29 residential.
18:52:30 And the reason I'm doing that is it tends to be
18:52:32 familiar with us.
18:52:33 Commercial has many, many various types of measures.
18:52:36 What you can see is our incentive that we provide for
18:52:39 customers is equal to greater than certainly in the
18:52:42 ballpark of the other utilities.
18:52:44 So I just wanted to give a flavor for how that does
18:52:47 work, and these are all approved by the public
18:52:53 commission.
18:52:53 That's what we are doing in the area of conservation.
18:52:55 I can talk about renewable.
18:52:56 Certainly the time is of the essence here.
18:52:58 So to the extent my time is up, I can leave it or I
18:53:01 can continue talking about renewable for a few minutes
18:53:04 if you so desire.

18:53:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Questions by council?
18:53:07 Any questions?
18:53:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do you have any sources of energy
18:53:14 that are not fossil based?
18:53:16 >>> Yes, we do.
18:53:19 And let me first answer that question by talking about
18:53:22 what are the renewable defined -- Florida statute
18:53:26 defined renewable resources that we have, if that
18:53:28 would be helpful.
18:53:31 Information was provided about municipal solid waste.
18:53:35 So we do purchase it from the county.
18:53:39 Secondly, we make purchases of biomass renewable
18:53:43 energy.
18:53:43 Biomass is the woody yard clippings, if you will, the
18:53:49 woody brush, that type of stuff.
18:53:51 We make purchases of that.
18:53:52 We also purchase waste, heat developed top provide
18:53:56 energy from the phosphate industry. In Florida that's
18:53:58 defined as a renewable resource.
18:54:01 We also own and purchase from customers, there's
18:54:08 sources of portable take energy, and then we also from
18:54:11 time to time are able to purchase landfill.

18:54:15 All of these are defined as renewable by Florida
18:54:18 statute and compromise approximately 3% of the energy
18:54:20 that we deliver to customers.
18:54:22 You will find 3% to be either equal to or greater than
18:54:25 what the other utilities in Florida today are
18:54:28 currently able to provide for their customers.
18:54:33 That's the renewable piece.
18:54:34 Now to go beyond that, we have gas generation, and I
18:54:38 don't recall the actual balance between coal and gas.
18:54:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's okay.
18:54:45 Thank you.
18:54:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
18:54:52 >>> Mr. Chairman, there are other issues in the area
18:54:55 of environmental.
18:54:57 If we can, two minutes to address those.
18:55:01 I would like to ask Brian Burrs to come up.
18:55:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I'll give him three minutes.
18:55:09 >>> Thank you.
18:55:09 My name is Brian Burrs, manager of area programs,
18:55:12 Tampa Electric Company.
18:55:15 Thank you for the opportunity to talk about Teco
18:55:17 environmental initiatives.

18:55:19 In addition to the renewable information, I also -- we
18:55:26 also have substantial carbon dioxide from the program
18:55:31 for gas.
18:55:32 And you can see from the chart that we have had over
18:55:37 20% reduction from our 1998 emission levels.
18:55:43 And we have since then, since that time, reduced over
18:55:49 20 million tons of carbon dioxide, and that would have
18:55:53 been emitted had we not repowered.
18:55:57 To put that in some kind of perspective the average
18:56:01 household has a carbon footprint of approximately 20
18:56:04 times.
18:56:04 And so over the last five years we reduced enough to
18:56:08 compensate for a million household.
18:56:13 It's significant contribution.
18:56:16 And comparable to a 20% standard and it's a reduction
18:56:22 that no other utility in the state -- and I don't know
18:56:26 of any in the nation that have achieved that level of
18:56:28 reduction, that Tampa Electric employs.
18:56:34 If I could, I'll show very quickly.
18:56:40 These are sulfur dioxide emissions.
18:56:45 You can see that the chart shows a generation increase
18:56:50 as a result of increasing expansion of customers, at

18:56:57 the same time reduced nitrogen oxide emission as well
18:57:03 as other initiatives, a total of $1.2 billion
18:57:09 investment and environmental issues.
18:57:11 So just to keep it brief, I'll answer any questions.
18:57:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Questions?
18:57:18 Okay.
18:57:25 >>> Mr. Chairman, we are available for any other
18:57:27 questions or available throughout the night as issues
18:57:29 come up.
18:57:30 But again thank you for your support.
18:57:31 And we are looking again to move this forward.
18:57:37 It's been over three and a half years.
18:57:40 We are ready to get this to a vote.
18:57:42 Thank you.
18:57:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
18:57:45 Public hearing at this point.
18:57:47 You have three minutes to come, state your name and
18:57:49 address for the record.
18:57:50 You have three minutes.
18:57:51 Actually for the record, four minutes because the
18:58:00 buzzer has about 25 seconds left.
18:58:02 Or I think it's three minutes.

18:58:06 >>> It's three and a half minutes total for every time
18:58:08 the buzzer goes off.
18:58:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: When the buzzer goes off, you will
18:58:11 have had three minutes and 30 seconds.
18:58:16 Than the sound of the buzzer means your time is up.
18:58:30 If you want to speak to council come forward now so
18:58:34 state your name and address.
18:58:35 >>> I have been handed a speaker waiver form.
18:58:36 If you are here, please acknowledge.
18:58:39 Christy Hess.
18:58:41 Tom Palmer.
18:58:43 Katie Adenticrue.
18:58:49 Thank you.
18:58:49 >>> I'm Diane Jenkins with the Old Seminole Heights.
18:58:53 I live within the Old Seminole Heights neighborhood.
18:58:55 And thank you for the opportunity to speak.
18:58:58 You know, there has been significant thoughtful
18:59:03 citizen comment provided on the franchise agreement,
18:59:05 at least since January of this year.
18:59:08 Some of the comments are well researched,
18:59:10 well-founded, and federal and state law.
18:59:20 All of the comments are a genuine concern for the

18:59:23 city's neighborhoods, and the impact that this
18:59:25 agreement would have.
18:59:28 McKay bay station sadly remains the focus for concern
18:59:35 of this franchise agreement.
18:59:36 And I commend TECO's work with renewable energy and
18:59:41 finding, of course, more efficient ways in that.
18:59:45 But disappointingly the current franchise agreement in
18:59:52 those issues only address 12 of the 73 issues that
18:59:55 were compiled by your outside attorney Tom Cloud, and
19:00:00 at the time David Smith.
19:00:04 As much as I would love to espouse limitations, what
19:00:10 really is important here, the issues for protecting
19:00:14 our neighborhood, of course interest, and the 73
19:00:22 issues -- I'm sorry that I'm talking about, I think
19:00:24 every one of you has had a copy of it, has been
19:00:27 through it, I have had actually e-mail conversations
19:00:31 with several of you on it.
19:00:33 But of particular interest, that simply is not
19:00:36 addressed, are the 15 beautification issues, brought
19:00:42 up the 15 permit notification issues that were brought
19:00:45 up, the five wiring and lighting concerns, and the
19:00:51 three health, safety and welfare issues details on

19:00:55 this list, again compiled from the current franchise
19:00:58 agreement.
19:01:03 I know many of these issues, included in some level of
19:01:08 the agreement, clearly lack necessary detail to ensure
19:01:12 appropriate compliance action or accountability by
19:01:16 TECO.
19:01:18 For example, with the tree and beautification, you
19:01:21 know, this city has made a conscious decision to
19:01:24 formulate guidelines, Sur planting, removing,
19:01:29 maintaining designated species of trees.
19:01:34 It's also not as expensive as MacKay Bay.
19:01:37 City also has a vested interest in the community of
19:01:41 these natural landscapes and the protection of these
19:01:44 natural landscapes.
19:01:48 Those who live within the city have to adhere to very
19:01:53 strong ordinances, and in some cases incur large fees,
19:02:00 for when we do not follow those ordinances.
19:02:02 Yet TECO is not held to the same standard.
19:02:05 Rather given a blanket clearance under the ANSI-A-300
19:02:11 and 33.1 recommendations, and I stress
19:02:15 recommendations, which again brings another concern
19:02:18 with the franchise agreement that in a letter that

19:02:22 Chip Fletcher put out that this is to be in the
19:02:33 ordinance which would override what the city currently
19:02:35 has in place.
19:02:36 You know, unfortunately, the ANSI-A-300 and according
19:02:43 recommendations do not address protected and grand
19:02:45 trees.
19:02:47 But they do reference compliance to current city
19:02:50 ordinances.
19:02:51 Again not followed by TECO.
19:02:59 Throughout the city.
19:03:00 And in going back, the best part of the 15 tree and
19:03:04 beautification issues, to the 5 appropriate wiring and
19:03:09 lighting concerns, in the franchise agreement, there
19:03:13 has been a statement regarding the use of an insulated
19:03:18 wire and heavily canopied areas.
19:03:21 In a simple compact with TECO, at least in my area
19:03:27 TECO has not changed any of those wires, at least
19:03:29 since 1979, 1980.
19:03:33 That's a problem again, a provision of the franchise
19:03:37 agreement that was not followed, not complied with,
19:03:42 and certainly they were not made accountable for it.
19:03:48 In the issue of undergrounding, I know they have a hot

19:03:52 button.
19:03:52 I know the issue comes out that there is no
19:03:54 negotiation.
19:03:55 I think as David Smith has put it in a letter to the
19:03:58 City Council, but the truth is, I think that perhaps
19:04:04 the City Council needs to request that TECO make a
19:04:08 neighborhood by neighborhood evaluation, the
19:04:12 opportunity for undergrounding.
19:04:13 It may come up astronomical figures.
19:04:16 It may not.
19:04:17 Currently the United States according to the Florida
19:04:20 electric commission can be a one to one or one to
19:04:23 twenty ratio and cost.
19:04:24 We have no idea.
19:04:26 And to use the blanket report from the Public Service
19:04:28 Commission that came out in 2006 does not cover Tampa.
19:04:37 Overall, I could go on with these issues, but many of
19:04:43 you sitting there, I know, councilman Mulhern and
19:04:49 Councilwoman Saul-Sena, and you are aware of the
19:04:57 terrible deficit of information that is in this --
19:05:01 depth of information in this and it is clear in
19:05:06 reading and understanding that the statutes in place,

19:05:09 there are in fact many provisions within the city that
19:05:11 allow for local ordinance direction, retention, and
19:05:16 negotiations based on the best interest of the city
19:05:24 under our current statute.
19:05:25 (Bell sounds)
19:05:26 I'll just end, I ask that before you approve the
19:05:29 franchise agreement that you make sure that the voice
19:05:31 of the people has been heard and all information has
19:05:33 been considered to the best of your ability.
19:05:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:05:41 Next speaker.
19:05:42 >>> My name is Richard Formica, Pawnee Avenue in the
19:05:53 Temple Crest neighborhood of the city.
19:05:55 I would like to begin by thanking Chip Fletcher and
19:05:57 his team for working so hard in this agreement for the
19:06:00 citizens of Tampa.
19:06:03 Besides negotiating over it and finally agreeing on
19:06:06 the contents of its 900 plus pages.
19:06:10 That must have been a daunting task.
19:06:13 I don't understand the majority of these pages but I
19:06:15 think I am accurate in expressing the agreement lacks
19:06:18 one very important goal for the benefit of everybody.

19:06:22 It lacks any implementation of any plans for or even
19:06:26 any mention of the use of alternative renewable
19:06:29 sustainable energy resources.
19:06:32 I was involved with the city's green ordinance task
19:06:34 force for the past two years.
19:06:37 I find it sadly disappointing that some of the hard
19:06:40 work a lot of people donated to the greening of Tampa
19:06:42 did not find its way into this agreement.
19:06:46 We are looking at an agreement establishing rules of
19:06:49 operations for the next 25 years.
19:06:55 No mention has been made to even consider the
19:06:57 possibility of leaving or using alternative energy
19:06:59 sources during this time frame.
19:07:02 No innovations are suggested.
19:07:05 No incentives are offered to find and put to use
19:07:09 alternative renewable, sustainable energy sources.
19:07:13 Anyone who believes gas prices will not change for the
19:07:17 worse in the next 25 years is in my opinion ignorant
19:07:21 or has their head in the sand.
19:07:23 If Tampa wants to be successful for the next 25 years,
19:07:27 as it has been for the last 25 years, and one of these
19:07:31 future successes will be keeping the bay from flooding

19:07:34 the downtown area by limiting carbon emissions, then
19:07:39 Tampa must become a leader in the use of renewable,
19:07:41 sustainable alternative energy sources.
19:07:45 We are not called the sunshine state for nothing.
19:07:49 Let's start to make use of this sunshine to benefit us
19:07:53 all.
19:07:57 Provisions for the expeditious implementations and the
19:07:59 use of renewable, sustainable, environmentally safe
19:08:02 alternative energy sources are included in this
19:08:04 agreement, it must be rejected.
19:08:08 Thank you.
19:08:18 >>> Susan long.
19:08:20 I'm one of between eight and nine thousand residents,
19:08:26 household residents in Seminole Heights.
19:08:29 We have probably one of the largest expanses of tree
19:08:32 canopies in this city.
19:08:33 If you put all of Seminole Heights together.
19:08:40 And when they come to trim our trees they kill the
19:08:46 trees, they maim the trees or make it so ugly that you
19:08:48 wonder why you even keep the tree.
19:08:56 One of the problems we have is that nobody bothers to
19:08:59 look at the damage that TECO does.

19:09:02 Nobody living behind those trees looks at it, doesn't
19:09:07 care.
19:09:07 Obviously TECO does not.
19:09:08 I have been known to stand out front and say please to
19:09:11 not destroy my trees.
19:09:12 And when the TECO guy comes, or whoever, we have a bad
19:09:19 customer, you better get over here, she won't let us
19:09:23 trim the trees.
19:09:25 But I am not allowed to protect my neighbor's tree.
19:09:28 So this year because I happened to be home when they
19:09:31 came by still looked like a tree.
19:09:33 My neighbor's tree looks, I wasn't allowed to protect
19:09:39 her tree.
19:09:39 And it was beautiful before TECO came through.
19:09:41 This franchise agreement makes it illegal to cut trees
19:09:45 that grow more than 25 feet tall under utility lines.
19:09:50 If TECO goes to our neighborhood and destroys more and
19:09:52 more of our grand oaks, technically we are not allowed
19:09:57 to replace them.
19:10:00 Than the A-300 does not indicate they care about how
19:10:03 pretty the trees are or whether or not they maintain a
19:10:06 canopy.

19:10:07 This summer I spent two and a half weeks in Savannah,
19:10:10 Georgia.
19:10:10 I noticed that Georgia power managed to trim the tree
19:10:14 canopy in such manner that the canopy remains full A
19:10:19 all across a divided road with two lanes in each
19:10:22 direction.
19:10:23 I looked up and noticed that they had above-ground
19:10:26 wires.
19:10:27 But you didn't even know they were there because they
19:10:28 had been trimmed so well that the wires worked and the
19:10:34 canopy remained and the streets were pretty.
19:10:36 The fact that TECO can't trim trees on my street which
19:10:39 according to Cathy Coyle is one of the skinniest
19:10:45 streets in our area, without killing or seriously
19:10:50 harming the trees, that they can't do it in a manner
19:10:54 that will maintain our canopy, even if they do
19:10:56 maintain the canopy, they don't maintain in the
19:10:59 anesthetic manner, tells me he they aren't even
19:11:02 trying.
19:11:03 Inspections on utility lines need to be done
19:11:05 periodically.
19:11:06 I have never seen anybody inspect any of the utility

19:11:08 lines in my street ever in the 12 years I have lived
19:11:11 there. I do not think they should get away with this
19:11:16 kind of activity.
19:11:17 Thank you.
19:11:18 >>> Phil Thompson.
19:11:25 I lived in Seminole Heights for about 28 years and I'm
19:11:29 here tonight representing Sierra Club of Florida.
19:11:33 Recently, a poll of 67% of the voters said there were
19:11:38 significant reasons why they voted the way they did
19:11:40 Tuesday.
19:11:41 25 years is a long time.
19:11:43 Quarter of a century.
19:11:44 Does this franchise agreement serve us as well as it
19:11:47 could for that time period as energy does develop and
19:11:52 change?
19:11:53 Can TECO include voluntarily some means for in this
19:11:56 franchise agreement for moving us forward towards the
19:12:00 renewable energy you are hearing so much about?
19:12:02 So far they have really done very little.
19:12:09 Germany install busy ten times more solar energy last
19:12:12 year than we did in Florida.
19:12:14 Can Tampa outperform Hamburg?

19:12:17 Yes, they could, but we need a partner like TECO
19:12:20 because the city and individuals can't do it by
19:12:22 themselves.
19:12:23 We need a partner.
19:12:26 Do the territorial disputes prohibit an individual
19:12:30 from doing that?
19:12:31 You have to answer that question.
19:12:36 Do the rates to buy energy that people buy themselves
19:12:39 provide individuals with the proper incentive that
19:12:41 they need in today's market to do that?
19:12:44 One approach being considered in our neighboring city
19:12:47 of Gainesville, the Gainesville regional utility is
19:12:49 asking the Public Service Commission to allow them to
19:12:53 pay 26 cents per kilowatt individuals to individuals
19:12:57 who install their own.
19:13:00 That's above the market rate, but that will help the
19:13:02 utility move forward towards providing that.
19:13:05 We are going to have, the Public Service Commission in
19:13:08 the next few weeks, come out with some sort of
19:13:10 standard, the Congress in the next few months is going
19:13:13 to come out with some kind of standard.
19:13:15 Perhaps it would serve us better if we took a little

19:13:20 time to see what happens on the state and national
19:13:22 scene to see what type of world we will all be living
19:13:26 in next year.
19:13:27 So far TECO is producing 40-kilowatts of the solar
19:13:32 panels that they have in four places, 2000 with the
19:13:35 voluntary system that consumers have, kilowatt hours.
19:13:40 We can do more than that but we need a partner to work
19:13:42 with, to move our city towards the future that we can
19:13:47 make possible to give us not only clean energy but
19:13:50 reliable, lower rate, because in 25 years, solar and
19:13:55 wind and the other alternative energy will be much
19:13:57 less expensive.
19:13:58 But if our utility is stuck in the past then we are
19:14:02 going to be paying higher rates than in just a few
19:14:06 years from now.
19:14:06 Thank you.
19:14:10 >>> Mark Klutho, 14496 120th Avenue north, Largo.
19:14:26 You still have incandescent bulbs in the other room.
19:14:30 I mean, how stupid can you be?
19:14:32 And here are a couple of photographs --
19:14:34 >> Point of order.
19:14:35 Sir, point of order.

19:14:36 We are talking about the franchise agreement, not the
19:14:38 light bulbs.
19:14:39 Speak to the subject.
19:14:40 >>> Well, this is a big farce.
19:14:45 If you can't get light bulbs right, a franchise?
19:14:54 I don't think you can handle that.
19:14:55 Here I have photographs, or your city employee, when
19:15:01 he was plant ago few oak trees underneath the power
19:15:05 lines, and here is an oak with the trunk less than a
19:15:09 foot in diameter and it's already being mutilated.
19:15:15 Now the city is supposed to see that this does not
19:15:17 occur.
19:15:19 When I said you are violating your city laws, you told
19:15:23 me to mind my own business.
19:15:25 He called the city's Richard Bailey and he told me you
19:15:31 have to remove the trees.
19:15:32 He didn't have the authority to do that.
19:15:43 This is a big farce.
19:15:44 You keep using conservation, conservation.
19:15:51 Efficiency measures are better an free lunch.
19:15:53 They like getting paid to eat your lunch.
19:15:57 It's efficiency.

19:15:58 It's not conservation.
19:16:01 And they don't even have the program that offers
19:16:08 enticements to people to do solar, hot water, like we
19:16:11 did at our house.
19:16:13 Our last electric bill, $36.47.
19:16:22 And you know what that PSC public hearing?
19:16:28 What did I hear all these tears about, the electric
19:16:31 bills going up.
19:16:36 Well, you know, and then we just heard about the
19:16:39 utility and how they were helping build these
19:16:43 efficient houses.
19:16:45 Well, the rocky mountain institute in snow mass,
19:16:50 Colorado, temperatures lower than 40 below zero, and
19:16:54 it was built without a furnace.
19:16:57 Now that is what is efficient.
19:17:01 I mean, this is a farce.
19:17:08 This is a big farce.
19:17:10 TECO is not doing anything near what the science
19:17:17 allows.
19:17:19 And here we have the new scientific American.
19:17:25 And what does it say here?
19:17:28 This LEEDing, when architecture isn't green, and you

19:17:36 people talk about LEED all the time.
19:17:38 I mean, everything here is not real.
19:17:47 It's not real at all.
19:17:51 A franchise agreement with this utility?
19:17:56 I mean, this is not the 21st century.
19:18:05 Not even close.
19:18:08 You're talking about 18th century.
19:18:14 (Bell sounds).
19:18:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:18:16 Next speaker.
19:18:21 >>> Good evening.
19:18:22 Dan booth.
19:18:23 I'm development manager of the Heights project just a
19:18:26 few blocks up Tampa street.
19:18:28 And I would ask City Council tonight not to move this
19:18:33 franchise agreement forward in its current form.
19:18:37 TECO is a great corporate citizen.
19:18:39 They do a lot of great things in this city.
19:18:41 They have been here a long time.
19:18:46 They spent as you saw tonight over a billion dollars
19:18:49 cleaning up some of our old coal fired power plants
19:18:54 and we commend them for that.

19:18:56 I believe they are required to by the clean air act
19:18:59 that was started in 1972.
19:19:01 I give them a lot of credit for that.
19:19:06 They spend a lot of money as we talked tonight on
19:19:08 programs.
19:19:08 I would like them to start spending some money on our
19:19:11 rights-of-way.
19:19:12 This franchise agreement is about our rights-of-way.
19:19:16 It pains me what our rights-of-way in Tampa look like.
19:19:21 Driving here tonight, okay, this was this morning.
19:19:28 This is the intersection of Tampa street and Palm
19:19:31 Avenue.
19:19:32 Very highly traveled street.
19:19:36 You will see a streetlight on there.
19:19:39 I took four pictures, four different streetlights in
19:19:43 that intersection that are on in broad daylight.
19:19:48 They can't get the lights to go off during the day.
19:19:50 They can't get the lights to come on at night.
19:19:52 And we want to sign a 25 year agreement with these
19:19:55 guys?
19:19:55 I would like the franchise agreement, cleaning up the
19:20:03 rights-of-way, the public rights-of-way.

19:20:04 And it's not just TECO.
19:20:10 It not necessarily all of their messy lines in the air
19:20:14 that need cleaned up.
19:20:15 But just an example.
19:20:18 It doesn't take a utility expert to see that light
19:20:22 pole is a danger to the public rights-of-way.
19:20:25 That's on 7th Avenue.
19:20:26 One of our main streets.
19:20:28 These photos were all taken today.
19:20:32 The last time I was here, I asked you, I was
19:20:35 frustrated about getting some lights turned off.
19:20:38 Right after the meeting I went back, and they reported
19:20:40 on the Internet again.
19:20:43 That to me is like me telling my lawn maintenance guy
19:20:46 that, you know, you have got to pull those weeds, you
19:20:49 are not doing a good job.
19:20:52 But the lawn maintenance guy says, well, show me which
19:20:56 one needs to be pulled.
19:20:58 That's frustrating.
19:20:59 We are paying these guys to manage our rights-of-way,
19:21:03 taxing me 4.6% of my utility bill as a franchise fee,
19:21:08 but let's get some value out of these rights-of-way.

19:21:12 I have a dream that Tampa street and Florida street 25
19:21:16 years from now don't look more of the same.
19:21:23 They said they have been here since 1890s, I
19:21:27 believe.
19:21:27 Some of their light poles are the original ones.
19:21:33 This is Tampa street.
19:21:35 Some of those poles, they don't even take the time and
19:21:39 effort to pull out poles that they don't even use
19:21:42 anymore.
19:21:46 Another exam, Tampa street.
19:21:48 This photo is the one photo that wasn't taken today,
19:21:52 it was taken in march.
19:21:54 Broken light pole.
19:21:56 The pole is still there.
19:21:59 Today.
19:21:59 Thank you.
19:22:00 Please don't approve it.
19:22:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
19:22:13 >>> I'm Bill Newton, Executive Director of the Florida
19:22:18 Consumer Action Network, reside in Seminole Heights,
19:22:20 and we have many members in Tampa.
19:22:22 We are here tonight to urge you not to approve this

19:22:27 25-year agreement.
19:22:29 I have several reasons.
19:22:30 First of all, it locks you into a type of policy that
19:22:36 really is old-fashioned and things could change
19:22:38 dramatically over the next 25 years, and this subpoena
19:22:41 not going to give you the opportunity to change with
19:22:44 the times.
19:22:45 For instance, our country has changed quite a bit in
19:22:47 the last few days, and just a few months from now, we
19:22:51 are going to see a whole new energy policy.
19:22:54 So don't you want to leave a door open so that you can
19:22:58 change as the times change?
19:23:02 You should have a buyout provision to this.
19:23:06 We as consumers believe that by investing and paying
19:23:11 our bills, you know, we are not the main investors who
19:23:15 put up our money to buy the equipment, but we have, in
19:23:18 the same way that you pay for your house or your car,
19:23:22 we have been achieving equity and the other equipment
19:23:26 in the land those out there.
19:23:27 Now, we think we certainly have an interest in it.
19:23:30 And at some point you may, you know, want to or have a
19:23:35 reason, civic reason to buy more.

19:23:37 Something that we can't foresee now that might occur
19:23:39 over the next 25 years.
19:23:41 So leave the door open to that.
19:23:44 And avoid getting, as a matter of policy, locked into
19:23:49 a large centralized power plant type of scheme.
19:23:53 What we are going to be seeing in the future is more
19:23:56 spread out power with individual solar units and other
19:23:59 new technologies coming on line.
19:24:01 So to block ourselves in with no opportunity to change
19:24:08 is going to restrain progress and is going to cause
19:24:10 people higher rates.
19:24:11 New technologies are going to bring rates down versus
19:24:15 the large expensive -- particularly these plants are
19:24:19 going to cost us an arm and a leg.
19:24:21 Especially in tough times.
19:24:25 We can't afford it.
19:24:26 We just can't pay these high prices.
19:24:28 So we need to leave an opportunity to have lower rates
19:24:32 through newer technologies, and even through
19:24:35 competition which these new technologies would
19:24:38 provide.
19:24:41 To the way that TECO is doing business.

19:24:43 Why should we only have one way of doing things?
19:24:45 Look at cell phones.
19:24:46 All these different companies, all this competition.
19:24:49 It's good.
19:24:52 Admittedly the country may be moving away from
19:24:54 capitalism.
19:24:55 But I think it's still a valid way to do business, and
19:24:59 we should look at opportunities to provide people
19:25:02 different ways.
19:25:03 So thank you for the opportunity top do this.
19:25:06 And I think that you should give residents more time
19:25:09 to discuss this issue.
19:25:11 You say, well, we spent three years already, or four
19:25:14 years working on this agreement.
19:25:16 But it's really only getting into the public eye right
19:25:20 now.
19:25:20 Now people are only really beginning to become aware
19:25:23 of this.
19:25:23 So don't rush into it.
19:25:25 Give it a few weeks or until next year to really get
19:25:28 involved, you know, and get into the policy, and
19:25:32 participant as a community the way we should, and

19:25:35 helping policies.
19:25:39 Thank you for your time.
19:25:41 >>> Mr. Chairman, members of council, my name is Ann
19:25:54 McDonald, I am a retired paralegal, and I live in
19:25:59 Seminole Heights, as do many of my friends and
19:26:02 neighbors behind me.
19:26:04 Let me just tell you a very brief story.
19:26:07 Six months, after TECO came out a year and a half ago
19:26:11 to trim the trees in our neighborhood, one of the
19:26:15 limbs on a grand oak tree on our property fell.
19:26:22 We had to pay to have it cleaned up.
19:26:27 Four months later we had another limb fall off the
19:26:30 same tree.
19:26:31 And the tree began to list toward the area that had
19:26:35 been defoalated across the street from us.
19:26:39 The city arborist came out and said, this tree has
19:26:44 been sun killed.
19:26:47 It's canopy of shade has been removed by the tree
19:26:51 trimming that had taken place less than a year before.
19:26:57 We paid them to have the tree come down, and I can
19:27:01 tell you that there are at least a dozen of my
19:27:05 neighbors who have lost if not limbs off their trees,

19:27:10 they have had to take their whole trees down.
19:27:12 And these are not small trees.
19:27:15 These are trees that have been growing for 50 years or
19:27:19 more.
19:27:23 I certainly applaud the initiative to use renewable
19:27:30 energy that TECO is now making, but no amount of that
19:27:37 renewable energy can make up for the 50 years that it
19:27:42 takes to grow a grand oak tree.
19:27:46 I currently get the rest of my utilities underground.
19:27:54 Fiber-optic provides my home with phone, vision, cable
19:28:02 and Internet.
19:28:03 Technology is changing very rapidly.
19:28:08 Who knows what kind of technology we will have a year
19:28:13 from now, two years from now?
19:28:17 As a retired paralegal I cannot think of any contract
19:28:22 that I ever had to review that lasted for 25 years.
19:28:28 Who knows what kind of things we may have in 25 years?
19:28:34 So I would echo what my friends and neighbors have
19:28:37 said.
19:28:38 Please do not tie us to a contract that may leave us
19:28:46 light years behind the rest of the state, the rest of
19:28:50 the country, and the rest of the world.

19:28:54 Thank you very much for your time.
19:29:00 >>> Good evening.
19:29:01 My name is Lisa Montelion, I reside in South Seminole
19:29:09 Heights.
19:29:09 So I represent another neighborhood in the City of
19:29:10 Tampa.
19:29:12 I'm also a member of the green building committee of
19:29:14 the city, the Sun Ray builders association and manager
19:29:20 of a small green construction company. This agreement
19:29:24 has been under negotiation for three years.
19:29:27 We all know that's a long time to negotiate an
19:29:30 agreement.
19:29:30 But considering that we will be tied into this
19:29:32 agreement for 25 years, it's a very small amount of
19:29:35 time to be assured that we are getting the best deals
19:29:38 possible.
19:29:40 I would not lock myself and my company into a
19:29:44 long-term contract until I felt it was the best deal I
19:29:47 felt possible, and even then I would be sure there was
19:29:51 realizing the dynamics of the economy that is not
19:29:55 something anyone can predict as we have all seen with
19:29:57 the recent rise and fall, mostly fall, of the American

19:30:01 economy.
19:30:02 There is one element of agreement that exemplifies
19:30:06 this is not the best deal.
19:30:07 Section 14 is entitled emergency support.
19:30:11 In accordance with the provisions of this section 14,
19:30:14 Tampa Electric agrees to make available to the city
19:30:18 six linemen and 12 additional resources to secure the
19:30:21 facilities in connection with the city's post
19:30:24 hurricane search and rescue activity.
19:30:28 Six linemen.
19:30:30 Now, I don't think that that is the best deal that the
19:30:35 City of Tampa can get over a 25-year contract.
19:30:37 I think that there are a lot of reasons to postpone
19:30:40 this a little bit more to get a little bit better of a
19:30:45 deal than what we are going to deal with post
19:30:48 hurricane.
19:30:48 We also -- what happens in many parts of the country
19:30:51 when struck by a severe storm?
19:30:54 Not everyone a hurricane.
19:30:56 So I would ask that you really consider, on top of all
19:31:02 the other issues that have been brought up, clean
19:31:04 energy, the trees, right-of-way management, that we

19:31:08 also look at health and safety issues are going to be
19:31:11 addressed by six linemen and 12 additional resources
19:31:16 as the contract calls for.
19:31:27 >> I give the remainder might have time to my
19:31:30 colleague.
19:31:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It doesn't work that way.
19:31:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You handed me two.
19:31:44 Have you spoken yet?
19:31:45 Do you intend to speak?
19:31:46 Okay.
19:31:47 So I'll hold these till you come up here.
19:31:50 Thank you.
19:31:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What's the issue?
19:31:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I have been hand add speaker waiver
19:31:54 form for a speaker to appear at the lectern I have
19:31:58 been handed in advance.
19:32:00 When that time comes I'll have it in front of me.
19:32:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What I'm trying to get clarification,
19:32:07 of the people here, who is going to be speaking?
19:32:09 Who are they waiving their time to?
19:32:11 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The person up here is not related to
19:32:14 the speaker waiver form.

19:32:15 When Ms. Reynolds steps up, I believe -- Ms. Reynold,
19:32:20 can you raise your hand?
19:32:21 I have been handed forms when she gets here that have
19:32:25 two additional names so nothing is relating to this
19:32:27 speaker before you.
19:32:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I just want to are clear.
19:32:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Also with regard to waiving or
19:32:33 yielding time to other speakers, that is not
19:32:34 council --
19:32:35 I just want to be clear so everybody understands what
19:32:37 council's rules are.
19:32:39 Okay.
19:32:41 >>> Good evening.
19:32:43 Mr. Chairman and respectfully members of council.
19:32:47 My name is Dena Leavengood and I live in South Tampa,
19:32:54 here today as a group called tomorrow matters, an
19:32:57 informal nonpartisan grassroots coalition of
19:33:01 government, citizens working to balance natural,
19:33:04 social and economic resources in the Tampa Bay region,
19:33:06 and among those are energy.
19:33:08 And so thankfully you all read my letter into the
19:33:13 record at the last meeting, and I'd like to reiterate

19:33:16 some of those points.
19:33:17 But since that time I would like to let you know that
19:33:20 we have had some community meetings with TECO and the
19:33:23 city to talk about this franchise agreement, and --
19:33:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can you talk a little louder?
19:33:29 >>> I'm sorry.
19:33:30 I'll try to.
19:33:31 We have had a meeting with other members of the
19:33:32 community, and TECO, Tampa Electric -- excuse me --
19:33:36 and the City of Tampa representative to talk about the
19:33:40 franchise agreement and what it really means.
19:33:41 And for those of us in the community who are not as up
19:33:46 to speed on exactly what a franchise agreement is
19:33:48 meant to do, I think the clarification that it is
19:33:51 really about public rights-of-way and that it
19:33:55 precludes conservation issues, and talking about
19:34:00 renewable energy.
19:34:00 I find a little bit confusing.
19:34:03 One of the challenges, I think, we face as a community
19:34:06 is the franchise agreement does cover public
19:34:08 right-of-way which directly impacts the safety of our
19:34:12 community, the aesthetics of our community, and all of

19:34:15 the other things that we have talked about, in
19:34:18 addition.
19:34:19 So to say it precludes talking about these things in a
19:34:23 contract, I don't really understand.
19:34:26 What I would like to say, though, is TECO has been a
19:34:28 good corporate citizen of our community, and we
19:34:31 appreciate all of the things that they have done
19:34:34 already, in the line of conservation, and making
19:34:37 things green and working to renewable energy and all
19:34:40 the other things that they have been focusing on.
19:34:42 Some of them have been voluntary, and some of them
19:34:45 have been because of regulations, that it has forced
19:34:50 the energy industry which has been changing radically
19:34:53 over the last number of years to accommodate those
19:34:55 changes. This franchise agreement in the short time I
19:34:58 have had to look at it concerns me, because it does
19:35:00 lock in the City of Tampa, and as you are our
19:35:06 representatives of the city we look to you to be our
19:35:07 best stewards to make sure we have a contract that is
19:35:10 not only accountable, but does the best for the
19:35:12 citizens of this community, not just in terms of race,
19:35:15 but in terms of all the other things that are

19:35:17 important for the sustainability of Tampa.
19:35:21 And looking through this, we have noticed that there
19:35:23 are a number of items that have been addressed by
19:35:26 other members of our community.
19:35:29 I have listed 73 items where only 12 were actually
19:35:33 addressed, and I know negotiations are difficult, but
19:35:36 really isn't this contract supposed to be to our
19:35:38 benefit, and not to the electric company's benefit?
19:35:41 The electric company PSA determination is an electric
19:35:46 company.
19:35:46 We don't have choices.
19:35:47 But a buy-out option either full or partial, what does
19:35:51 that hurt if the real concern in a franchise agreement
19:35:54 is that we can't affect rates or costs if it's pay for
19:36:00 value.
19:36:00 If we are going to compensate them for the value of
19:36:02 that, then there shouldn't be a problem with that.
19:36:06 We want to make sure that either we consider that in
19:36:10 this contract, or that we shorten the term.
19:36:13 25 years is enormous.
19:36:15 We want to make sure that we have some flexibility and
19:36:18 options for the changing of our technology, which is

19:36:21 coming around very quickly.
19:36:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:36:24 >> So we urge you please delay the approval.
19:36:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:36:27 >> At the first reading.
19:36:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
19:36:33 >>> Hi.
19:36:35 My name is Jeff Harmon, 1006 east Idlewild.
19:36:41 I'm also president of the neighborhood association Old
19:36:43 Seminole Heights neighborhood association.
19:36:45 On behalf of the residents, I have to say that I don't
19:36:50 think that enough has really been known even though
19:36:54 this agreement has been in the works for quite some
19:36:55 time.
19:36:56 This is really just come to the forefront.
19:36:58 And we have only had just a short period of time to
19:37:01 try to inform our residents, and I am glad to see that
19:37:07 we have a lot of our residents that are here that are
19:37:10 going to speak on this issue.
19:37:13 Another thing I can reiterate is that I do think that
19:37:17 TECO has done a really bad job where neighborhoods are
19:37:21 very sensitive to our tree cannon I.

19:37:23 We really protect it a great deal.
19:37:25 I can tell you this from being on the board, and from
19:37:28 personal experience that some of the things that have
19:37:30 happened have been atrocious, and we have gotten very
19:37:33 little redress for some of these commissions that TECO
19:37:37 has left in their tree trimming.
19:37:39 As an individual, I'm an engineer that works in
19:37:42 environmental engineering projects.
19:37:47 A lot of the work that I do is in clean-up of coal
19:37:53 fire plants, clean coal technology, now referred to.
19:37:58 Over the past five years, the landscape has
19:38:02 dramatically changed.
19:38:04 I can't imagine that in the next five years it's going
19:38:07 to be any different.
19:38:07 What you are seeing today is not going to even
19:38:10 resemble, I don't think anybody here can tell you what
19:38:12 it might look like in ten years.
19:38:16 As an individual, with some engineering background in
19:38:19 this field, I would stress that you try to make this
19:38:23 agreement as short as possible, just so that you will
19:38:25 be able to reassess this in a shorter period of time.
19:38:30 25 years in the energy field is a very, very long

19:38:33 time.
19:38:34 Thank you.
19:38:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else?
19:38:42 Anyone else?
19:38:46 >>> Good evening members of the City Council.
19:38:52 Thank you for having this today.
19:38:55 My name is Nick Algia. I work for an organization
19:38:58 called Southern Alliance for Clean Energy.
19:39:00 We are a leading regional organization pushing
19:39:02 efficiency renewables and better policies that will
19:39:05 inevitably help your communities throughout the
19:39:07 southeast.
19:39:09 On the October 23rd workshop, my comments were cut
19:39:14 short on the three minute mark.
19:39:15 When I left off, I was discussing the crossover point
19:39:17 of renewable energy versus fossil fuel energy,
19:39:20 specifically the increasing competitive cost of solar
19:39:23 energy.
19:39:23 I understand the franchise agreement discussion is
19:39:26 limited in scope.
19:39:27 Agreement has a very specific measures it is trying to
19:39:32 accomplish.

19:39:33 Tonight I urge the Tampa City Council to postpone the
19:39:36 adoption of the franchise agreement, a 25 year
19:39:37 agreement does not make smart business sense, given
19:39:41 Tampa Electric Company's figures on solar energy
19:39:43 costs.
19:39:45 In meeting this week with Tampa Electric Company and
19:39:47 members of the community, it is revealed that Tampa
19:39:50 Electric Company in fact has no 25 year plan for
19:39:55 renewable energy and from I can tell a very loose five
19:39:58 year plan.
19:39:58 I would like to call attention to a document included
19:40:00 in my written statements titled levelized costs since
19:40:05 per kilowatt hour.
19:40:06 I have two bones of contention with this document that
19:40:09 has been supplied by Tampa Electric Company.
19:40:12 The cost is entirely out of line with other figures
19:40:20 which I will expand on, and other renewable incentives
19:40:23 are not included.
19:40:24 I raise the question then that could this be
19:40:26 disproportionally inflated?
19:40:29 Fossil fuels today are very heavily subsidized by tax
19:40:32 paying dollars, why would subsidies be left out on

19:40:35 this figure of solar energy?
19:40:37 I will include this in my written statement.
19:40:39 I mention these figures are disproportionate to other
19:40:41 figures, I have also included in my written statements
19:40:46 a report titled solar assessment study reaching 10%
19:40:51 solar by 2025.
19:40:52 I quote: In the capital class for coal and electric
19:40:58 gas, we are reaching a crossover point, we suggest
19:41:01 that solar will with electricity on a straight
19:41:07 kilowatt hour Rays rate basis throughout much of the
19:41:09 U.S. around 2015.
19:41:11 We project the cost of PD systems will drop on average
19:41:16 $7 peak Watt, 19 to 32 cents per kilowatt hour today,
19:41:23 and approximately 8 to 14 cents per kilowatt hour a
19:41:26 decade from now.
19:41:27 So let's say 40 cents per kilowatt with this study,
19:41:31 and that's over what they are saying.
19:41:33 TECO is suggesting that solar PV is 80% per kilowatt
19:41:38 hour today.
19:41:39 I think this needs to be reviewed.
19:41:41 Additionally according to the Department of Energy
19:41:42 they are also encouraging and anticipating solar

19:41:46 competitiveness by 2015.
19:41:49 Again I urge the City Council to not lock our rate
19:41:52 into a bad business deal with a partner who
19:41:55 potentially does not have -- not demonstrated real
19:42:00 working knowledge of renewable energy in the future of
19:42:02 the market based on the documents they have shared.
19:42:07 All facts should be laid on the table.
19:42:09 I will offer a suggestion moving forward to host or
19:42:14 facilitate some sort of energy summit with the city,
19:42:17 with Tampa Electric Company, and bring external
19:42:21 experts to provide the most up to date information and
19:42:23 assist the city in developing an effective plan for
19:42:26 energy reduction, energy conservation, and employment
19:42:30 of renewable energy.
19:42:31 Thank you.
19:42:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
19:42:41 >>> Good evening, City Council.
19:42:43 Randy Barron, 217 west Comanche in Old Seminole
19:42:46 Heights.
19:42:48 Franchise agreement between TECO and the City of
19:42:50 Tampa.
19:42:51 And of course the signatory is going to be the

19:42:54 incorporated City of Tampa.
19:42:55 But in addition the City of Tampa are the people that
19:42:58 are sitting behind us.
19:42:59 It's the people who come home and find a power pole in
19:43:02 their front yard or find their trees destroyed or who
19:43:05 constantly have their power go out because the wires
19:43:08 that are supposed to be up to one standard aren't.
19:43:12 What these people are, they feel power less, they feel
19:43:16 no accountability with TECO.
19:43:18 What I would like to see in this agreement is some
19:43:20 mechanism that these people can have to address these
19:43:23 concerns.
19:43:23 Regardless whether it's 20 or 25 or 15, I would
19:43:26 actually say 10 years, there has to be some mechanism
19:43:30 wherein when someone butchers my tree, I don't have to
19:43:33 resort to whatever section 29 despite resolution,
19:43:40 which basically says that you, the city, get to meet
19:43:43 with the higher ranking members of TECO, and if that
19:43:46 doesn't work out, then you can sue in court.
19:43:49 There's got to be a better way.
19:43:51 The people behind me wants to feel like they have some
19:43:54 sort -- the ability to enforce some sort of

19:43:58 accountability on TECO.
19:43:59 And I don't feel a lawsuit is really the way to do it.
19:44:04 So if you can put this forward just for a few more
19:44:06 weeks so we can sit down and negotiate some of these
19:44:08 other terms, we think this contract in terms of the
19:44:14 issue of whether 25 years in such a fast moving market
19:44:18 is a smart thing for the city to do but also if you do
19:44:20 decide that's the right thing to do at least give us
19:44:22 the power to hold TECO accountable.
19:44:25 That's what we are looking for.
19:44:27 Thank you.
19:44:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:44:35 >> Good evening City Council members.
19:44:38 I'm Stephen Breslow, 26 year resident of Tampa.
19:44:43 On Martinique Avenue.
19:44:45 And I'm very concerned about the fact that there's a
19:44:49 lot of talk here about renewable energy.
19:44:51 But in fact TECO has done virtually nothing in the
19:44:55 direction of renewable energy, like a comment made by
19:45:00 one of the representatives.
19:45:01 I believe the only real renewable energy that TECO is
19:45:06 producing essentially is Tampa's MacKay Bay plant.

19:45:12 Nearly 60% of TECO's is coal, 40% is natural gas.
19:45:19 Fossil fuel.
19:45:23 With a new administration in Washington and a very
19:45:25 aggressive governor's policy toward renewable energy,
19:45:29 we are going to see gigantic changes in renewable
19:45:33 energy strategies and policies both on the federal and
19:45:36 the state level.
19:45:38 I would urge this council to go very, very cautiously
19:45:41 and very slowly into this agreement, because we are
19:45:44 going to have changes that are going to be
19:45:47 catastrophic to TECO's pricing and our own energy
19:45:52 bills in the next few months possibly.
19:45:56 Coal may go from the least expensive stock which is
19:46:00 now may be, to the most expensive P stock available in
19:46:05 the energy plant.
19:46:07 To a system which is a possibility or carbon.
19:46:14 This is an energy future that Tampa has to be prepared
19:46:16 for.
19:46:18 And I think you heard from a number of other speakers,
19:46:21 TECO has minimum strategy for this future.
19:46:25 In fact, we may end up being the victim of the fact
19:46:30 that the future planning of this company has been

19:46:33 very, very poor in regard to renewable energy.
19:46:36 And I think there are in fact some logistic planning
19:46:43 which predicts that our electric rates may triple
19:46:49 where it's fossil fuel based stock involved such as
19:46:54 TECO's.
19:46:55 Once again I urge this council to delay implementation
19:46:59 of this agreement, at least I would say four to six
19:47:01 months, until a new administration is in place in
19:47:05 Washington, and also until the governor's energy plan
19:47:08 is more carefully clarified.
19:47:10 Thank you.
19:47:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:47:18 >>> I'm Don millnun, representing physicians for
19:47:24 social responsibility.
19:47:25 I just want to tell you that Mr. Brislow talked about
19:47:30 costs, TECO. One has to add in the health care costs
19:47:33 that are increased by their coal plants which are
19:47:35 significant.
19:47:35 Coal was actually the most expensive source of power.
19:47:40 Thank you.
19:48:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Reynolds, you have two speakers
19:48:02 you wish to use on speaker waiver form?

19:48:05 >>> Yes, that's correct.
19:48:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Shaun Hicks and Troy.
19:48:09 Two additional minutes, Mr. Chairman.
19:48:11 >>> Thank you.
19:48:12 How many is that total?
19:48:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It will be a total of five minutes.
19:48:15 >>> I'll talk fast.
19:48:16 Thank you.
19:48:17 I'm CJ Reynolds, 1204 east Clifton, Tampa.
19:48:21 After the last hearing we had a group of citizens
19:48:24 retain a law firm in Tallahassee with expertise in
19:48:26 utilities and franchise agreements to review the
19:48:29 agreement, and provide us with an unbiased external
19:48:32 opinion.
19:48:33 Our goal was to ensure that our energy future protects
19:48:36 our residents and reflects our proactive group with
19:48:39 interest.
19:48:40 Law firm identified five section where is the
19:48:42 agreement is lacking specific terms which would
19:48:44 provide assurance that the city and third party
19:48:47 business partners can engage in the production or
19:48:49 transfer of solar power without legal ramifications

19:48:52 from TECO and among other things.
19:48:55 Chip said tonight that the contract allows the city to
19:48:57 do certain things, but these are conspicuously absent
19:49:00 in this contract.
19:49:01 To resolve this lack of clarity we request a meeting
19:49:04 with City Council to discuss the points and determine
19:49:06 the risk to the city and these specific contract
19:49:09 terms.
19:49:10 Since TECO forbids us with a buyout clause and since
19:49:14 Howard says they have plans to wait and see what the
19:49:16 PSC says about renewable energy before committing --
19:49:20 committing to a plan we do need extra diligence.
19:49:23 It would be extremely premature to approve the
19:49:26 contract at this point.
19:49:27 We don't want to endanger innovation in the city and
19:49:29 the ability to attract progressive business to our
19:49:32 city.
19:49:34 From the contractual point, some tedious boring things
19:49:37 here, to address, the signed operating procedure
19:49:41 manual officially referenced in section 22, the
19:49:43 document that we had was signed in 1997.
19:49:46 I understand there's a new version, but that's

19:49:49 essentially the same.
19:49:50 I would request that there be a detailed review of
19:49:51 that part, signing the franchise agreement, and as I
19:49:54 see it most of the terms as written are not binding.
19:49:58 Lastly, since TECO does forbid inclusion of a buyout
19:50:02 clause, we believe that the contract should be reduced
19:50:04 to 10 or 15 years.
19:50:07 And lastly, we request that the city dedicate one
19:50:11 percentage point of the franchise fee annually to be
19:50:14 specifically invested in projects to reduce the city's
19:50:18 energy consumption and costs, and that these programs
19:50:21 also include consideration to offer support for low
19:50:24 and middle income families with things such as zero
19:50:27 percentage, solar water heater and other energy
19:50:32 producing programs to pick up where we feel there
19:50:35 could be other programs that TECO is not currently
19:50:37 offering.
19:50:37 Additionally we request that a specific budget line be
19:50:40 dedicated for this thing.
19:50:42 Right now as we know with 4.6% goes into the general
19:50:47 fund and can be used from park benches to whatnot.
19:50:50 So we want this dedicated to help the city become more

19:50:53 energy efficient.
19:50:54 We think that will reduce the city light bill which is
19:50:56 about 20 to $25 million a year annual, not just
19:51:00 lights, all energy from the city to pay TECO, our goal
19:51:03 is to help the city become more energy efficient,
19:51:06 proactive in regards to attracting progressive
19:51:08 businesses who are interested in clean energy
19:51:10 technology.
19:51:11 Thank you.
19:51:11 We ask for a delay.
19:51:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
19:51:21 Anyone else?
19:51:26 Anyone else?
19:51:27 Okay.
19:51:29 Council, any questions?
19:51:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is going to take a minute but
19:51:41 for 12 years I have been waiting for the night that we
19:51:44 discuss the TECO franchise in hopes that we would be
19:51:47 considering something that's progressive.
19:51:49 What is before us today is not progressive.
19:51:52 It's not where we need to be as a community.
19:51:54 And the other 300,000 electric users beyond the city

19:52:00 don't get any say-so.
19:52:02 Only the City of Tampa does.
19:52:04 The administration has been working on this.
19:52:06 But beginning with our workshop two weeks ago it was
19:52:08 the first time that the community, through City
19:52:10 Council, had a chance to be weigh in on this very
19:52:13 important issue.
19:52:15 Thomas Friedman, the writer, just wrote a book called
19:52:18 "Flat Hot and Crowded" and says in the beginning of
19:52:21 the year 2000 it will be known as the energy climate
19:52:23 era.
19:52:25 These are the issues that will shape our world.
19:52:27 This is of utmost -- this is probably the most
19:52:31 important thing that any of us as council members will
19:52:33 face.
19:52:34 What is before us is not up to the standard that it
19:52:37 needs to be.
19:52:38 So what I would like to do tonight is to give us an
19:52:40 opportunity for the new president, president Obama,
19:52:45 who is committed to energy being one of his
19:52:49 initiatives, to see what his administration initiates
19:52:52 in terms of energy, to see what the PSC comes up in

19:52:54 terms of their renewable goal, and to give ourselves
19:52:59 time to the community, to talk with TECO about their
19:53:03 concern, in terms of lights being on in the daytime,
19:53:12 not being on in the night, what kind of very specific
19:53:17 terms will we be able to bring to TECO to make sure
19:53:20 that they fulfill the neighborhood's considerations,
19:53:26 and what we have today, a 25 year proposal is
19:53:31 absolutely not acceptable to the citizens of Tampa at
19:53:34 this time.
19:53:35 It is -- it would be irresponsible for us as council
19:53:39 members to move ahead with this tonight.
19:53:46 I absolutely believe that given time we can come up
19:53:48 with a much improved contract.
19:53:50 And the only way we are going to be able to get Tampa
19:53:52 Electric Company to respond is by putting them off
19:53:57 tonight.
19:53:57 If we agree to first reading tonight and second
19:53:59 reading in two weeks, the citizens of Tampa are stuck
19:54:03 for 25 years with an absolutely mediocre contract.
19:54:09 There would be no incentive for Tampa Electric Company
19:54:11 to improve.
19:54:12 And we cannot treat our citizens so shabbily.

19:54:16 So my motion is to put this on our agenda for the very
19:54:20 first meeting in April.
19:54:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I wanted to know if we have any
19:54:30 questions before we move a motion.
19:54:32 I think we need a lot of clarity.
19:54:35 Mr. Dingfelder, then Mr. Miranda.
19:54:37 Number one, do we have any questions?
19:54:38 Because I have a number of questions I want to raise,
19:54:41 if you don't have any questions.
19:54:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Yes, I did.
19:54:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Then council Miranda.
19:54:50 >> The motion was a little early in the discussion but
19:54:52 I didn't want to leave it hanging out there without a
19:54:55 second so I seconded it.
19:54:58 But I agree in principle.
19:55:03 A lot of times we hear about these things, well, this
19:55:05 has been in discussion with the administration for,
19:55:07 you know, three years.
19:55:08 But that's been behind closed doors.
19:55:12 And with all due respect to the mayor and the
19:55:14 administration, the citizens, you know, 40, 50 of you
19:55:20 who are here today, and council has not been involved

19:55:23 in that.
19:55:24 Okay.
19:55:24 So regardless of whether or not it's been three years
19:55:26 or ten years doesn't matter.
19:55:28 We are just getting it now for the first time.
19:55:31 And I do feel it's a bit rushed especially from the
19:55:34 citizens' perspective.
19:55:36 We have heard nothing but that for the last hour, as
19:55:39 long as we have been here.
19:55:41 I think that needs to be respected, because we are
19:55:45 only here for one reason, and that is to represent you
19:55:49 folks, the citizens.
19:55:51 Number one.
19:55:51 My question, Chip, or Tom, one or the other, is I know
19:55:58 you have shown us charts and graphs about other
19:56:03 franchise agreements around the state and how some are
19:56:06 20 years and 25 years and some are 30 years.
19:56:09 But the six years I have been on council I can't think
19:56:12 of any agreement that we enter into that are more than
19:56:14 just, you know, two or three years, or four years, or
19:56:18 five years at the most.
19:56:21 And I don't understand especially with all the

19:56:28 variables that everybody described tonight in the
19:56:30 industry why this city would even consider tying its
19:56:35 hands for more than five or ten years on this issue.
19:56:39 I understand why Tampa Electric might want us to.
19:56:42 But I don't know why that's in the public's best
19:56:45 interest and the citizens best interest.
19:56:46 Tom, how do you know what's going to happen 15, 20,
19:56:49 25, 30 years from now?
19:56:52 >>> Is that your question?
19:56:54 How do we --
19:56:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You just pick any part of it you
19:56:58 wish.
19:56:58 But you're our attorney.
19:57:02 >>> All I can tell you --
19:57:04 State your name for the record.
19:57:05 >>> My name is Thomas cloud.
19:57:07 I'm an attorney with gray Robinson in their Orlando
19:57:10 office.
19:57:11 And I represent you.
19:57:12 And what I was going to say was that in looking at the
19:57:18 market in Florida, the typical term for an electric
19:57:24 franchise is 30 years.

19:57:26 The vast majority of them are 30 years.
19:57:30 There's one that I know of with a co-op that's 15
19:57:37 years.
19:57:37 Just one.
19:57:38 And these with a co-op, not an investor or utility.
19:57:44 There's one that I know of that's 20 years.
19:57:46 And that would be Oldsmars.
19:57:48 But it would be signed at a time when things were a
19:57:50 bit more competitive than they are now.
19:57:52 When you start going outside Florida, let's go to
19:57:58 South Carolina.
19:57:59 60 years.
19:58:00 Let's go to North Carolina.
19:58:02 They range between 30 to 60 years.
19:58:05 And in many other states, you see the same thing.
19:58:09 In franchises, and not just electric franchises.
19:58:13 So franchises have tended to have a longer period.
19:58:18 Are you bound to a longer period?
19:58:20 No.
19:58:21 You're not.
19:58:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My key question, I know you have
19:58:27 shown us these charts and stuff.

19:58:28 Other municipalities have done.
19:58:30 That we have done that in the past.
19:58:31 That's all fine and good.
19:58:32 But I don't know that we had the volatility in the
19:58:36 issues in the past.
19:58:39 The times, they are a'changing as somebody once said.
19:58:43 >>> Well, that's true.
19:58:44 And I have listened and tried to write down all of the
19:58:47 things that people have talked about changing.
19:58:51 There's one gentleman that wants the light bulbs
19:58:54 changed in City Hall.
19:58:56 There's concern about energy conservation, even change
19:59:01 in presidential regime and dictating of the power
19:59:05 plant.
19:59:07 These are all things that have either just changed or
19:59:10 are subject to change.
19:59:11 What they all hold in common subpoena that they are
19:59:12 not covered by franchise.
19:59:15 They just aren't.
19:59:16 >> Somebody rattled off a number and I don't know
19:59:20 exactly where they got it from but they used your name
19:59:23 and said that 12 of the 73 issues that you raised

19:59:25 originally have been addressed.
19:59:28 Is that accurate or inaccurate?
19:59:30 >>> inaccurate on at least two counts.
19:59:32 The first one is, well, would love to say the 73
19:59:38 issues were my issues, but they weren't.
19:59:40 They were a collective group of people who sat down
19:59:44 primarily Sharon fox described and five or six of us
19:59:49 tried to piece together based on City Council
19:59:52 comments, input from other contracts, my input, Dave
19:59:57 Smith's input, a number of people, Mahdi Mansour's
20:00:04 input.
20:00:04 >> but the number 73, is that accurate?
20:00:07 >>> That is accurate.
20:00:08 >> Okay, and how many, is 12 accurate?
20:00:13 What is that 12 based on?
20:00:15 >>> I have no earthly idea was that 12 is based on.
20:00:20 >> Of the 73 then how many would you say have been
20:00:22 resolved in favor of the city?
20:00:24 >>> The most important one.
20:00:28 >> I didn't ask quantitatively.
20:00:32 Qualitatively.
20:00:33 >>> But that's my answer, I mean.

20:00:35 We have didn't sit down and count them all up, no,
20:00:38 sir.
20:00:38 >> Well, somebody did.
20:00:39 I don't know where the number came from.
20:00:41 >>> I don't know.
20:00:41 I don't know what they did to derive the number.
20:00:44 >> The other problem I have, Tom, is we had a regime
20:00:47 change in the city attorney's office.
20:00:50 You and Mr. Smith spoke to me awhile back and didn't
20:00:55 seem like you were that thrilled with the agreement.
20:00:58 The agreement didn't change that I've heard about.
20:01:02 And neither did the MacKay Bay agreement change.
20:01:08 And now we are here saying let's move forward.
20:01:11 And I don't understand the difference, except the only
20:01:14 person that's changed, Mr. Smith is not here anymore.
20:01:18 No offense to you, Mr. Fletcher, but I'm just
20:01:22 observing this and I don't understand it.
20:01:25 >>> Well, I would be the first one to say, is this an
20:01:30 academy award winning agreement?
20:01:32 No.
20:01:38 But does it adequately protect the interest that --
20:01:41 the most important interest in the City of Tampa?

20:01:44 I believe that it does.
20:01:45 Because I believe -- I believe that it does or I
20:01:48 wouldn't recommend it to you.
20:01:50 Could it be better?
20:01:51 Yeah, of course it could be better.
20:01:54 Can you exercise your discretion to slow it down?
20:01:57 Of course you can.
20:01:59 No question about that.
20:02:00 Does it change my recommendation that it protects the
20:02:05 things that I felt from the beginning needed to be
20:02:07 protected for the City of Tampa?
20:02:11 Not a perfect agreement.
20:02:13 It is a matter of compromise, just like all contracts
20:02:16 are.
20:02:18 And many of the things you heard discussed tonight, we
20:02:21 cannot address them in the franchise.
20:02:24 Do I want to see fuel cells in every home?
20:02:26 Of course I do.
20:02:28 And an end to these massive power plants?
20:02:30 Is therein anybody on the planet who doesn't?
20:02:33 This franchise is not going to impact that.
20:02:36 As much as we might want it to, it's not.

20:02:38 >> Could we ask the state legislature to allow local
20:02:43 governments to address these issues in the franchise
20:02:46 agreement?
20:02:47 I mean, what I've read in the case law that you guys
20:02:51 provided to me so kindly is that the case law
20:02:54 references back to the statute, and the statute
20:02:58 delegates many of these issues to the PSC.
20:03:01 But that's a creature of statute.
20:03:03 It's not state Constitution.
20:03:05 So the will of the legislature could change.
20:03:09 The will of the legislature could effectively, perhaps
20:03:12 not this year, perhaps two or three years from now,
20:03:15 maybe free up local government to address these issues
20:03:20 and franchise agreement.
20:03:21 That's a possibility, isn't it?
20:03:23 >>> A very remote one, yes.
20:03:26 >> You say remote, politically, that's your opinion.
20:03:29 But all they have to do is pass it and the governor
20:03:32 has to sign it and it's done.
20:03:34 >>> Well, yes, it is my opinion.
20:03:36 And that opinion is based on my view of what has been
20:03:41 submitted to the legislature over the past 25 years.

20:03:46 Including bills on both sides of the issue, and what's
20:03:50 tended to happen is the parties, meaning the investor
20:03:53 owned utilities on one side and the Florida League of
20:03:56 Cities on the other, have tended to fall back on the
20:03:59 compromises worked out in 1951 when the original act
20:04:03 was passed that gave the PSC, it was called something
20:04:08 else then, the railroad and public utilities
20:04:10 commission, the right to regulate rates and took it
20:04:12 away from cities.
20:04:14 I might add at the great insistence of the
20:04:18 St. Petersburg times.
20:04:19 And that compromise has been generally followed
20:04:23 regarding franchises with one or two exceptions.
20:04:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Chairman, I just have one last
20:04:31 question.
20:04:31 It goes back to the first question.
20:04:32 Is there any reason -- you started out by saying you
20:04:35 represent us, you represent all these people behind us
20:04:37 as well, correct?
20:04:38 You represent the City of Tampa.
20:04:39 >>> Yes, sir, whatever you say.
20:04:41 >> All right.

20:04:43 Well, they are paying your bill.
20:04:47 Is there anything that's in the citizens best interest
20:04:50 to have this be a 25-year agreement compared to
20:04:54 perhaps a 5 or 10-year agreement?
20:04:57 >>> Oh, no question.
20:04:58 A better deal for Tampa would be a 15-year agreement
20:05:02 over 25.
20:05:04 There's no question about it that.
20:05:05 >> A shorter agreement?
20:05:06 >>> Yes, sir.
20:05:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
20:05:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Miranda.
20:05:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: As I sit here and listen to
20:05:15 environmental to concerns of tree planting to oil
20:05:19 costs and all across the board, I keep saying to
20:05:23 myself, I always ask the individual to speak about
20:05:25 this, what are you doing yourself?
20:05:30 Just a second, I haven't finished.
20:05:32 I thank you for raising your hand but we are not in a
20:05:36 theater with movie stars and academy awards.
20:05:38 I know two of you that have done something because I
20:05:40 have spoken to both you.

20:05:42 Richard Formica, and he's done a whale of a job in
20:05:49 setting certain boundaries of expenditures on his
20:05:54 electricity and water and I commend him for that.
20:05:57 The other one should be Secretary of State, because he
20:06:00 worked real hard for the president-elect.
20:06:03 I was with him in a precinct and he does an
20:06:09 outstanding job and he we talked about conservation,
20:06:12 we talked about different things that need to happen
20:06:14 to all of us.
20:06:15 And he was talking about roofing.
20:06:17 And I know he's done a wonderful job in getting a
20:06:21 green roof on his house.
20:06:23 He's got it insulated, the top of the regular roof,
20:06:26 he's got about a half inch of material, and then he's
20:06:29 got a metal roof.
20:06:32 It's Phil Compton, right?
20:06:35 My English and my Spanish sometimes get mixed up on
20:06:38 the way out.
20:06:39 So I commend him for doing that.
20:06:40 So I want to ask the rest of you, the e-mail is
20:06:48 CharlieMiranda dot gov, or dot org. I don't know.
20:06:53 I never use it.

20:06:55 So send it in 274-7074, and I will compare your
20:06:57 electric bill every month for what you did last year.
20:07:00 That's how much I believe in conservation.
20:07:04 My whole house, TECO, I call them for an audit months
20:07:09 ago, seven, eight, nine months ago.
20:07:11 I had to do certain things.
20:07:12 My electric bill down between 35 and 40% for the last
20:07:15 six months.
20:07:17 My water bill, if it exceeds five dollars I'll take a
20:07:22 half minute bath instead of a three minute bath.
20:07:26 So I'm asking you before I look at TECO to do what you
20:07:29 have to do to save this earth.
20:07:33 I'm one that doesn't like to ask the public to do
20:07:36 something if I haven't done it myself.
20:07:38 And that's the way I have always been.
20:07:40 I bought a rental property, and guess what, I just put
20:07:44 in new windows, double insulated pain windows, and I'm
20:07:48 more than likely going to do the roof if I can find
20:07:50 somebody to loan me the money to put it up.
20:07:53 But those are the things that I look at before I start
20:07:56 asking any other questions.
20:07:59 Let me talk about oil costs, Mr. Chairman.

20:08:02 Coincidentally oil costs went down as the electric got
20:08:05 closer and closer and closer.
20:08:07 So we have forgotten about solar, and cut this and cut
20:08:10 that, and let's do this, let's hold this.
20:08:14 I guarantee you, come March, April, it's lower now
20:08:20 than it was a year ago.
20:08:22 Gas loan costs, that is.
20:08:24 Tree planting.
20:08:26 Many years ago I brought it out.
20:08:28 I said, let me ask you something.
20:08:30 Why do we plant trees in the right-of-way?
20:08:32 Why can't we not plant them in the homes of the
20:08:35 people?
20:08:40 I said when Lou up from the right-of-way what do you
20:08:42 see?
20:08:42 Electric wire.
20:08:43 Answer I got then, and I don't know if it is now, and
20:08:46 please correct me, that you could plant a tree in a
20:08:49 person's property, you had to plant it in the
20:08:51 right-of-way.
20:08:52 So, therefore, we create part of that problem
20:08:54 ourselves.

20:08:57 With an ordinance that says you have to plant trees in
20:08:59 the right-of-way.
20:09:02 Let me talk about the trees.
20:09:03 Same thing you have experienced in your neighborhood,
20:09:05 I have experienced in mine.
20:09:09 Several of those trees looked like they went through a
20:09:11 bowling alley in the 7, 9, whatever those two pins, 7,
20:09:18 10 pins are the one that is are left.
20:09:20 I checked with TECO.
20:09:21 This is about a you're ago.
20:09:24 And the legislature, as I understand, changed, and the
20:09:28 legislature, the PSC and TECO can address this, says
20:09:33 that's how you have to trim them.
20:09:35 So I'm bringing that out.
20:09:38 I remember that a year or year and a half ago back at
20:09:47 my retreat.
20:09:48 That means I lost the election.
20:09:49 So that issue, the tree canopy.
20:09:51 I don't know when we are talking about energy
20:09:57 conservation and what we are doing or not doing, but
20:10:00 this contract, if solar or something else other than
20:10:04 solar, you know, there's so many things, there's

20:10:06 thermal in the midwest, a guy with mirrors in Spain,
20:10:11 and said he was going to have 600,000 people on
20:10:15 electricity, just on mirrors creating the heat and
20:10:17 putting it into a generator.
20:10:19 If something was to happen -- in this administration,
20:10:23 the new administration come up, and all of a sudden
20:10:25 they are giving out money for this type of policies to
20:10:28 make efficiency without using fossil fuel, does this
20:10:33 prohibit anything that we can't go in that direction,
20:10:38 meaning TECO with the city?
20:10:41 >>> No.
20:10:42 Either the city could as a market actor take on doing
20:10:45 any of those activities, both to provide for ourselves
20:10:47 and like we do with McKay Bay, for private
20:10:52 individual to come in and sell wholesale or to sell
20:10:56 back to TECO, all those types of renewable energy
20:10:59 options that we have been talking about are not spoken
20:11:02 to in this agreement.
20:11:03 It would be regulated by state and federal law.
20:11:07 >> One second.
20:11:09 Correct me if I am wrong if I am wrong.
20:11:10 When we talk about the MacKay Bay, refuge to energy,

20:11:16 we saw -- sell that to TECO or to another electric
20:11:21 company, a certain amount and we have to pay the
20:11:24 transmission cost or they pay the transmission cost.
20:11:27 However, once we sell it to ourselves, we have to go
20:11:30 to the Public Service Commission, don't we?
20:11:32 >>> We can sell --
20:11:37 >> To us, to the city.
20:11:38 >>> to the city.
20:11:39 >> But once it becomes a euphoric thing that we can
20:11:43 instead of 19 megakilowatts, then you become an agent
20:11:50 of energy.
20:11:51 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: If we want to do wholesale we can
20:12:00 do that without the federal regulatory commission,
20:12:03 within some limits.
20:12:04 It when you get into retail that we would run into an
20:12:07 issue with the TECO service area, or whatever other
20:12:10 utility service area we would want to sell retail.
20:12:17 >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20:12:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Fletcher, I think some of my
20:12:20 questions have already been answered by what Mr.
20:12:23 Miranda raised, and that was one was, does this
20:12:27 agreement preclude us from moving in the direction if

20:12:29 we move to some new forms of energy?
20:12:33 You answered that in the affirmative that we have the
20:12:35 option to move in that direction.
20:12:39 Is that accurate?
20:12:40 >>> That's correct.
20:12:40 >> This agreement does not preclude from us, is that
20:12:43 right? No matter what the new administration comes
20:12:47 out with, it does not preclude us.
20:12:50 >>> That's correct.
20:12:51 In fact in order to make sure that our attorney,
20:12:53 outside attorney, advises us on renewable energy and
20:12:57 energy regulation, for him to review and confirm that
20:13:02 for us, because we want to be absolute confident about
20:13:05 it.
20:13:05 He confirmed for us that, yes, we are free to market
20:13:09 wholesale, we are free to produce energy, to supply
20:13:12 ourselves, supply to our facility, in any regard that
20:13:18 we would like to so long as we don't compete on a
20:13:21 retail basis.
20:13:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Secondly you heard the concerns of the
20:13:24 resident and citizens here tonight.
20:13:29 Does this agreement -- can this agreement address

20:13:32 those concerns or those issues?
20:13:34 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Well, the issues related to
20:13:36 renewable energy, to renewable energy mix, to those
20:13:41 types of issues, no.
20:13:43 Even if you were to send it back to the administration
20:13:46 to renegotiate with TECO, those are issues that we
20:13:49 would not be able to engage in.
20:13:51 Now, the issues related to poles in the right-of-way
20:13:56 and trees in the right-of-way, as councilman Miranda
20:14:01 indicated, we have some limitations on how we regulate
20:14:04 tree trim.
20:14:04 Those are right-of-way issues, those are within the
20:14:07 scope of the agreement, and I'm not going to tell you
20:14:09 that those concerns are not issues that in theory
20:14:13 could be addressed in this agreement.
20:14:14 And I think as indicated some of them are addressed in
20:14:17 the agreement.
20:14:18 But the execution I think was the testimony.
20:14:20 It's not been -- it's what we would like.
20:14:25 >> Okay.
20:14:26 And just a follow-up.
20:14:28 And I know the answer to most of you but I'm trying to

20:14:33 understand again, so people understand that we are
20:14:35 limited in what we can do in terms of this franchise
20:14:38 agreement, only the right-of-way and only those things
20:14:42 that are relative to the right-of-way.
20:14:44 Again, that's accurate?
20:14:45 >>> That's correct, sir.
20:14:46 >> Let me follow up, also, and raise the question.
20:14:53 Do we have to have a franchise agreement?
20:14:56 >>> Do we presently?
20:14:57 >> You have a 20-year one now, right?
20:15:00 That was signed back in 1980, I believe, is that
20:15:02 correct?
20:15:03 >>> Approximately.
20:15:04 It is -- '86 I think is when it was executed.
20:15:09 It's an expired agreement.
20:15:10 In my view it is still the basis on which TECO
20:15:14 continues to operate within our rights-of-way, and
20:15:18 will continue to be, but TECO may have a different
20:15:22 position on that issue.
20:15:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So we have to continue to function
20:15:25 under the existing agreement, is what you are saying.
20:15:27 >>> Yes, that's my belief.

20:15:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And that is a different opinion coming
20:15:31 from TECO.
20:15:32 Is that what you are saying, also?
20:15:34 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: What has been expressed to me is a
20:15:37 belief that if we were to at some point reach an
20:15:41 impasse, that they would have an option to continue to
20:15:44 operate without an agreement, in which case we would
20:15:47 have an ability to charge them a fee for use of our
20:15:53 right-of-way, and they would have an opportunity to
20:15:57 seek permits and other types of things that any other
20:16:00 actor would do in our right-of-way.
20:16:02 I think our position would be that our current
20:16:04 agreement would have to continue in force.
20:16:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: At the end of the day, at the end of
20:16:08 the day, at the end of the day, all the letters that
20:16:15 we got and all the different attorneys, under the
20:16:18 charter, the advice comes from legal.
20:16:26 >>> I'm sorry, sir?
20:16:27 >> At the end of the day, we have a different opinion
20:16:28 from all the different law firms, different attorneys,
20:16:31 City Council, must weigh their opinion based on whose
20:16:36 recommendation?

20:16:36 >>> The city attorney's office, sir.
20:16:38 >> And the city attorney represents the best interest
20:16:41 of the city and the residents of City of Tampa.
20:16:44 Is that accurate?
20:16:46 >>> That's correct, sir, based upon the lengthy
20:16:49 negotiations and the extensive back and forth that we
20:16:52 have had.
20:16:53 We believe that this is the best agreement that we are
20:16:55 going to reach with TECO.
20:16:58 Is it perfect?
20:16:59 No.
20:16:59 But we are recommending it today for your approval.
20:17:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And I believe that because in the
20:17:05 charter we had the discussions when I first came over,
20:17:07 in the charter, it states that not even our attorney
20:17:10 for City Council speaks for the city.
20:17:14 Is that accurate?
20:17:17 >>> That's correct, sir.
20:17:18 >> My question now, what I heard you say, and Tom say
20:17:26 pretty much is, not a perfect agreement but it's a
20:17:29 agreement that you recommend.
20:17:29 >>> That's correct, sir.

20:17:32 >> That is in the best interest you think of the City
20:17:34 of Tampa.
20:17:34 >>> That's our recommendation.
20:17:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And pretty much most issues that were
20:17:39 raised beyond the purview of this agreement.
20:17:43 >>> That's correct.
20:17:45 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Some of those issues and concerns,
20:17:47 though, how can we address them beyond the agreement
20:17:51 that some of the issues that have been raised here
20:17:54 tonight?
20:17:54 >>> For example, the abandoned poles in the
20:17:57 right-of-way, I don't think that's permissible under
20:18:00 the current agreement drafted or the agreement we have
20:18:02 in place today, the expired one that we were referring
20:18:05 to.
20:18:05 I think that we have issues with execution and
20:18:09 enforcement, within the right-of-way.
20:18:11 Those something that we are not going to change with a
20:18:13 piece of paper.
20:18:15 So I believe that we do have issues, and that we need
20:18:18 to address.
20:18:19 But I don't think that we can change that by changing

20:18:23 the agreement, because these issues are clearly out of
20:18:26 compliance with the current standard.
20:18:28 >> But there's a mechanism to address that?
20:18:33 Am I accurate?
20:18:34 >>> We actually have ongoing meetings with TECO to
20:18:37 address various issues related to streetlights and
20:18:39 street poles, and that is one of the issues on the
20:18:42 table.
20:18:42 >> And what has been the climate in those discussions?
20:18:51 >>> Well, they range, I guess the best way to say it.
20:18:54 We have as recently as last Thursday had a meeting
20:18:57 that was pretty productive.
20:18:58 So we are making progress.
20:19:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
20:19:07 Go ahead.
20:19:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20:19:10 Mr. Fletcher, don't we have a technical agreement with
20:19:12 TECO that goes hand in hand with the franchise
20:19:17 agreement that was done 12 years ago?
20:19:21 >>> There is the operating agreement that's part of
20:19:23 this, that speaks to response time.
20:19:27 >> And wasn't it drafted in '96?

20:19:35 >>> I think that's approximately correct.
20:19:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Chairman, if we give ourselves
20:19:40 six month, we will end up, I guarantee you, not a
20:19:43 12-year-old operating agreement, with something that
20:19:45 gives citizens an accountability.
20:19:48 They are paying the bills.
20:19:49 It's not TECO.
20:19:50 I am a TECO shareholder, and you know what?
20:19:53 TECO is doing just fine.
20:19:54 It's the citizens whose nickels are on the table who
20:19:59 want their lights turned off during the day and their
20:20:01 lights turned on at night and they want their trees
20:20:04 trimmed in a way that isn't Butchering, and we have no
20:20:07 effective mechanism at this time to make TECO do this.
20:20:10 If we had an effective mechanism, Mr. Fletcher
20:20:13 wouldn't be coming up there.
20:20:17 He's a very polite guy.
20:20:18 I say let's give ourselves six months of serious
20:20:21 talks, not behind closed doors, but with citizens,
20:20:25 Tampa Electric, and City Council, to get something
20:20:29 that's more responsive to the public needs.
20:20:32 We are elected by the public.

20:20:34 TECO shareholders are doing just fine.
20:20:36 We need to respond to our constituents.
20:20:39 And in six months we will have a much better
20:20:41 agreement.
20:20:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I just wanted to respond to one
20:20:52 thing.
20:20:54 The Seminole County case clearly says that we can't
20:20:56 mandate -- we can't mandate that TECO address these
20:21:03 issues of conservation, renewable energy, because they
20:21:06 are regulated issues.
20:21:09 It's fine.
20:21:10 We can all read that case and it's pretty clear that's
20:21:13 what it says.
20:21:13 But it doesn't say -- and Chip, you can help me on
20:21:16 this -- the Seminole county decision doesn't say that
20:21:19 TECO couldn't come to the table and voluntarily agree
20:21:23 to include some of those things, in some form or
20:21:26 another.
20:21:29 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: That's true, with the caveat that
20:21:31 agreement wasn't built into the -- the costs built
20:21:34 into their current rates, that they would have to go
20:21:37 to the PSC to get approval for those expenditures.

20:21:39 >>> Right.
20:21:40 But there's none of that type of language that's in
20:21:42 the current proposed draft agreement, correct?
20:21:45 >>> That's correct.
20:21:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's why -- J just so we are
20:21:50 clear undergrounding is addressed but they have not
20:21:53 agreed to an expenditure of funds to undertake
20:21:56 undergrounding.
20:21:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You know, Mr. Chairman, you
20:22:00 mentioned what is the current status?
20:22:02 Well, because that's 2 plus years has been that there
20:22:07 is no agreement but everything goes along status quo.
20:22:10 You know, we collect the 4.6%, or they collect it for
20:22:14 us, or pass it to us, everybody I think is pretty much
20:22:16 operating under the old agreement.
20:22:19 I don't see any hurry on this.
20:22:21 I really don't.
20:22:23 It sounds to me like worry sort of at an impasse on
20:22:26 some of these issues.
20:22:27 Maybe when the various economic climate, energy
20:22:33 climate, these various issues change over the next
20:22:37 period of time, six months, year, two years, whatever,

20:22:41 you know, maybe these issues might start freeing up
20:22:47 and maybe TECO will come to the table and be able to
20:22:50 address some of these issues in this various
20:22:52 agreements with the city.
20:22:54 At this time, I see them with their heels dug in, and
20:22:57 I don't believe that's in the best interest of the
20:22:59 city.
20:23:00 And that's what we are here for.
20:23:02 We are not here to placate TECO, not here to, you
20:23:05 know, to play nice.
20:23:07 We are here in the best interest of the city.
20:23:10 And guess what, have I heard one city resident stand
20:23:15 at the podium tonight and say, we urge you to go
20:23:18 forward with this?
20:23:23 Not one.
20:23:23 And I don't hear it when I go out to coffee shop
20:23:27 either or anything else.
20:23:29 What I'm hearing tonight are citizens saying you're
20:23:31 going too fast.
20:23:33 And we need more time.
20:23:34 And we need to slow this down.
20:23:36 And we shouldn't have any 25 year agreement under

20:23:42 these kind of conditions.
20:23:44 Linda, I think your idea is a good one to slow this
20:23:47 down and come back in April.
20:23:51 I would be surprised if anything is even going to
20:23:52 happen that fast but I'm willing to go with that.
20:23:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say this.
20:24:01 There are contracts for more than 25 years in the
20:24:02 city.
20:24:03 Some had to be voted on by the public.
20:24:05 One of them is the stadium that you are paying for
20:24:07 with no rent increase for 30 years.
20:24:09 That's a beauty.
20:24:10 That really does a lot for the citizens.
20:24:12 Next one is the tax-free $600,000 a year to another
20:24:17 sports franchise.
20:24:18 That's a beauty.
20:24:19 That really does a lot for you, too.
20:24:21 So nobody complains about that because they want to go
20:24:24 see a hockey puck.
20:24:26 And I think some poles that are there. However
20:24:32 there's other companies, not TECO, there's other
20:24:36 companies that use poles.

20:24:37 TECO poles are identified by -- if you let me know the
20:24:45 location I'll go look at the poles myself.
20:24:47 I can tell you in the last month and a half there was
20:24:49 an order sent out to the neighborhood that there's
20:24:51 going to be a pole replacement, and some upgrades in
20:24:54 the transmission of transmitters because of the
20:24:59 hospital close by.
20:25:01 The poles were put in.
20:25:02 The poles were taken out.
20:25:04 In a very orderly fashion.
20:25:05 Again I'm not speaking for TECO. I can tell you where
20:25:07 they are all at.
20:25:09 They are north of Tampa Bay.
20:25:12 In that vicinity, close to the hospital.
20:25:15 And it was done within about a two and a half-week
20:25:20 period.
20:25:21 So than the gentleman that was here today on the
20:25:25 Variance Review Board there, was one next to his
20:25:28 house.
20:25:29 But all those, I watch them when I go.
20:25:32 I don't go home the same way.
20:25:36 Because I'm not a practical guy.

20:25:37 I don't follow myself around.
20:25:38 But I can also say this.
20:25:40 I have been in politics a little bit.
20:25:44 And I don't call anyone to come here.
20:25:49 And I appreciate all of you coming up here.
20:25:50 And I made the motion to have this meeting at 6:30 so
20:25:53 all of you could be here.
20:25:55 Because I like public input.
20:25:56 I may vote for or against an issue.
20:26:00 But I appreciate the information that I get.
20:26:04 And that's all I got to say, Mr. Chairman.
20:26:05 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion to close the public hearing.
20:26:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So moved.
20:26:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't know if we close it.
20:26:14 I think motion on the floor is to continue it for six
20:26:17 months.
20:26:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We close the public hearing and then
20:26:21 take a motion.
20:26:22 I don't know.
20:26:22 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, this is a legislative
20:26:24 matter, not quasi-judicial.
20:26:26 It was set as a public hearing at council's

20:26:29 discretion.
20:26:31 It would be appropriate now that you have had input to
20:26:34 close the public hearing and take whatever action is
20:26:36 necessary.
20:26:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I apologize, Mr. Chairman.
20:26:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern.
20:26:40 >>MARY MULHERN: We can close the public hearing.
20:26:43 >> Second.
20:26:45 (Motion carried).
20:26:46 >>MARY MULHERN: I just wanted to say that I agree that
20:26:50 we should postpone this.
20:26:53 I don't think we have any other opportunity to have
20:26:57 any input for the public in for this agreement.
20:27:02 And I think one of the most telling, most interesting
20:27:10 and pertinent things I heard was from Mr. Formica,
20:27:15 that it isn't common to have a 30-year -- or it is
20:27:18 common to have 25, 30-year franchise agreement with a
20:27:23 utility, but that was last year and the year before,
20:27:26 and things are changing so quickly now.
20:27:28 And I think we should be looking for some different
20:27:35 kind of energy regulations that might affect this.
20:27:39 I think if we do delay it for the six months that

20:27:42 Councilwoman Saul-Sena recommended, it might give us a
20:27:47 little more room.
20:27:50 To negotiate on this.
20:27:51 And I think I agree with Mr. Dingfelder.
20:27:54 We have heard from everyone here that they are not
20:27:57 ready for us to do this without having more
20:28:00 discussion, and urging on our part to TECO to address
20:28:08 some of these questions that have come up from the
20:28:11 public.
20:28:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Council does have a role in this in
20:28:16 terms of policy creation.
20:28:18 We are not the lawyers, but we are the ones who listen
20:28:20 to the public, and try to translate their concerns
20:28:23 into good public policy.
20:28:25 I think that we heard a lot from the public this
20:28:28 evening.
20:28:28 And what I would suggest now is that the
20:28:30 representatives from Tampa Electric Company who are
20:28:33 here take what they have heard, look at the most
20:28:36 innovative things that are being done in this country,
20:28:39 and aspire to make our community proud as leaders and
20:28:43 come back to us with an excellent proposal.

20:28:48 We are partners in this.
20:28:49 We need to work together.
20:28:50 But we need to make it as innovative and progressive
20:28:53 as it can be.
20:28:54 And come back to us with a franchise agreement we can
20:28:57 be proud of.
20:28:59 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Chairman, how is this six
20:29:01 months, and negotiations are going to take place like
20:29:05 they did in the past, with the mayor's office?
20:29:07 Or is it going to be in public forums?
20:29:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I have to interject, and I'm
20:29:16 sure Mr. Fletch worry say this agreement before you is
20:29:18 for your approval or disapproval.
20:29:21 The administration is under no obligation to negotiate
20:29:25 anything.
20:29:25 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Right.
20:29:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Nor is Tampa Electric under any
20:29:28 obligation to negotiate anything as a result of the
20:29:30 direction of this City Council.
20:29:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's right.
20:29:33 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If council should give that
20:29:34 direction, and have that be council's desire, that

20:29:40 that would be expressed.
20:29:42 But I will say that I cannot tell you under what
20:29:46 obligation any of the parties are to effectuate that.
20:29:51 Council has the ability to do whatever it wishes to
20:29:53 do.
20:29:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I just want to chime in because I
20:29:57 think the point is very well taken.
20:29:59 I think Ms. Saul-Sena pretty much answered your
20:30:03 question, Mr. Caetano, as did Mr. Shelby, but all we
20:30:07 can do is ask, okay?
20:30:08 All we can do is ask.
20:30:10 You know, we have been told this is not the academy
20:30:13 award-winning contract that we have been told by the
20:30:16 citizens, don't enter into something this long, 25
20:30:19 years.
20:30:19 We have been told a lot, a lot of things tonight.
20:30:22 So then we respond by perhaps telling our good friends
20:30:25 at TECO over here, and Mrs. Saul-Sena put it pretty
20:30:30 well, please work on this with the community, not with
20:30:32 each individual council member, not even perhaps with
20:30:34 the mayor.
20:30:35 Please, work on this with the community.

20:30:43 All the people may not articulate on these issues,
20:30:48 some about trees, some about this, some about that.
20:30:50 Form a committee, okay?
20:30:52 Tweak it up a little bit and come back in six months
20:30:54 with an agreement.
20:30:55 I don't think the mayor is going to object, when they
20:30:57 come back with an approved agreement, the mayor will
20:30:59 be on board, and then hopefully, you know, maybe we
20:31:02 can be on board.
20:31:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
20:31:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Chairman, I hate to say this.
20:31:09 I'm not a lawyer.
20:31:09 I don't think -- and I love these people here.
20:31:12 I have no friends at TECO.
20:31:14 But let me say this.
20:31:15 I don't think, within the law --
20:31:18 That's what I was going to say.
20:31:20 >> -- allows this body to tell the administration to
20:31:23 give up their right to do something and give it to the
20:31:27 public, no matter what the subject matter is.
20:31:30 So I think things are getting, you know, a little
20:31:38 confusing.

20:31:39 But I asked certain pointed questions and they were
20:31:42 answered.
20:31:43 One I asked about the energy policy, if something
20:31:45 changes, it's there.
20:31:46 If I want to do something, it's there.
20:31:48 If I want to make something that I spend $40,000 on,
20:31:52 on the solar cell energy, and put in the changing of
20:31:56 the equipment or it goes in, I can sell electricity to
20:32:01 TECO, I can do that.
20:32:02 All of us can do that.
20:32:04 If you give me the 40,000 I'd do it.
20:32:07 So I don't understand.
20:32:10 This is really not a 25 year contract in my estimate.
20:32:13 I'll tell you why.
20:32:14 It three and a half years.
20:32:15 You are looking at 21 and a half years.
20:32:18 It's already been three and a half years.
20:32:22 >> It would be effective now.
20:32:24 >> I understand that.
20:32:25 But you count, when you are doing -- I'm not an
20:32:27 attorney, but I guarantee you, it might be for 25
20:32:31 years but the three and a half years you haven't had a

20:32:33 contract.
20:32:35 Have you had a contract, Mr. City attorney?
20:32:37 >>> In my view we had an expired contract that we are
20:32:43 holding TECO to.
20:32:45 >> And if I ask the other party, they are going to
20:32:47 tell you no.
20:32:48 That's the way the law is.
20:32:49 That's why you have good attorneys, and good judges to
20:32:52 determine.
20:32:54 So I never got an answer on the tree planting or the
20:32:57 tree trimming as to why it's done with the Y-cut.
20:33:05 I had heard it was a legislature mandate.
20:33:07 I don't know how true that is.
20:33:13 >> I could have Mr. Cloud come and talk to you about
20:33:16 the interaction on the state statute of the tree
20:33:18 trimming but my understanding is you are generally
20:33:20 accurate, we do have some additional things in our
20:33:23 agreement that's slightly different.
20:33:25 The other points that I did want to make is that we
20:33:29 are talking about things changing over time, and a lot
20:33:31 of things especially related to renewable energy
20:33:35 standards.

20:33:35 But this agreement, whether you send it back to the
20:33:37 administration or not, isn't going to address those
20:33:42 issues.
20:33:42 The one issue from a regulatory standpoint that will
20:33:46 change potentially in 25 years is competition for
20:33:51 electric utilities and potentially deregulation.
20:33:54 That's an issue that we are concerned about.
20:33:57 But we also did address that in section 7 of the
20:34:00 agreement, which is page 5, lines 12 through 24.
20:34:04 We had a reopener clause, where there is a dramatic
20:34:09 change in circumstances, we can go back and reopen
20:34:10 this agreement.
20:34:12 So while I'm hearing you, I understand what you're
20:34:15 saying.
20:34:16 I did want to make that clarification that we do have
20:34:19 that opportunity to come back in, if we believe that
20:34:21 it is necessary.
20:34:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If I can continue on one more
20:34:26 question, Mr. Chairman, or one statement.
20:34:28 After all is said and done, no one here talked about
20:34:31 the most important issue that I saw and read in that
20:34:35 contract that changes from the other contract.

20:34:38 And that, if I remember, I don't remember what page it
20:34:42 was on, but I think says something about if you have a
20:34:48 widening of the street you can only do it one time,
20:34:50 one time a year, or I forgot.
20:34:52 So one street only and it takes millions of dollars to
20:34:55 move a city operation if you are going to do six
20:34:59 blocks, a mile, and widen that street, and those poles
20:35:03 that are paid by us if I'm correct.
20:35:08 Has that been talked about or not?
20:35:10 >>> That is basically correct.
20:35:12 TECO has agreed to go beyond the state requirements
20:35:14 and paying for relocation so that is an extra benefit
20:35:16 of this agreement over the prior agreement.
20:35:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: There's one other issue and those
20:35:23 again related to our authority and power under the
20:35:28 charter, and early on when I came here, when I tried
20:35:31 to change the contract I was told we only vote it up
20:35:35 or down.
20:35:35 And that was it.
20:35:37 That we couldn't change the ranking, we couldn't
20:35:41 negotiate anything, that is left to the
20:35:43 administration.

20:35:43 You need to speak to that, Mr. Fletcher.
20:35:45 So I don't want us to mislead the community that we
20:35:49 have all this power and authority when the charter,
20:35:52 the charter, the citizens voted and approved for, does
20:35:55 not give us that authority.
20:35:58 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: That's correct.
20:35:58 I think your option here would be if you are not
20:36:01 satisfied with the agreement would be to send it back
20:36:03 to the administration, for us to begin renegotiating
20:36:07 with TECO.
20:36:08 Your other option, I suppose, would be to pass this on
20:36:12 first reading, and set a date.
20:36:15 Our recommendation was originally November 20th.
20:36:18 But you can set the date at your pleasure.
20:36:22 Those really are your only two options here under the
20:36:27 charter.
20:36:28 >> I will amend my motion that we send it back to the
20:36:31 administration to renegotiate with TECO, to be brought
20:36:34 back to us at the beginning of April.
20:36:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: With suggested input from the
20:36:40 community.
20:36:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.

20:36:44 And it's only a suggestion because we can only
20:36:47 suggest.
20:36:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
20:36:49 >>>
20:36:52 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I'm sorry to interrupt.
20:36:54 I'm not clear on what the intent much council is.
20:36:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: May I speak it, say it again?
20:37:00 >>MARTIN SHELBY: In effect, the net effect then of
20:37:03 what you are saying is a continuance, unless I hear
20:37:05 the words, you move to reject or deny.
20:37:09 And I have not heard that.
20:37:10 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No.
20:37:12 My intent is top send this back to the administration
20:37:17 to continue the negotiations with TECO, to address the
20:37:21 concerns raised tonight, and bring it back to us to
20:37:25 the first meeting in April.
20:37:27 I think that's pretty clear.
20:37:30 And I call the question on the motion.
20:37:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Fletcher?
20:37:35 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: To speak to Mr. Shelby's point, I
20:37:37 believe at least under the charter we would view that
20:37:41 as a rejection to send back to the administration for

20:37:44 renegotiation.
20:37:44 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What's currently before us is not
20:37:48 acceptable, that I believe it can be improved, so I
20:37:50 move that we reject what's before us, request that the
20:37:53 administration renegotiate something and bring it back
20:37:56 to us at the beginning of April.
20:37:57 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
20:37:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'll put a substitute motion on,
20:38:02 Mr. Chairman.
20:38:03 I think that takes precedence over the motion on the
20:38:05 floor.
20:38:05 Am I correct?
20:38:09 Ask me if I'm correct and then I'll tell you.
20:38:12 All right, let me put this.
20:38:14 I move to put it on first reading, and I'll tell you
20:38:16 why.
20:38:19 It's been three and a half years between -- we can
20:38:22 hold first reading and second reading for six months
20:38:25 if you want to.
20:38:26 But I can also say that that issue that I brought up
20:38:29 to me is the most important issue because that's a
20:38:31 money issue.

20:38:33 Money to all the taxpayers directly, indirectly
20:38:36 through the city.
20:38:37 And if I got to pay for it, that means the city has
20:38:40 got to pay for it, so therefore it's me.
20:38:42 And that issue about that one time that I don't
20:38:45 believe was in the original document -- am I correct
20:38:47 or wrong?
20:38:48 >>> You are correct, there is an improvement in this
20:38:50 draft snoop that's the only issue that I have with
20:38:53 this agreement.
20:38:54 All the rest of the things that I think were
20:38:56 addressed, the tree planting, the tree canopy, the
20:39:01 difference.
20:39:02 So what I'm saying is we are not going to get much
20:39:05 better than we are now if better at all.
20:39:07 I've heard evidence on both sides of this issue.
20:39:10 We paid an attorney that knows what he's doing.
20:39:13 Not that you don't, sir.
20:39:15 But we had an outside counsel in this case.
20:39:17 And they did a very admirable job, an individual who
20:39:21 has years of experience, in this one area.
20:39:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I don't think you can make that

20:39:35 substitute motion because it's adversarial to the
20:39:37 motion on the floor.
20:39:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 100% contrary.
20:39:41 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Under Robert's Rules of Order which
20:39:43 by council's rules it defers to, a motion to
20:39:45 substitute is recognized by Robert's Rules of Order as
20:39:48 a motion to amend a pending motion.
20:39:51 On page 132 of Robert rules of order it state as
20:39:55 follows, an improper amendment, the following types of
20:39:58 amendments are out of order.
20:39:59 Number two is one that merely makes the adoption of
20:40:03 the amended question equivalent to a rejection of the
20:40:05 original motion.
20:40:07 And it goes on to state.
20:40:10 So unfortunately under Robert rules that sort of
20:40:14 substitution would be out of order.
20:40:16 >> So you are saying the last part, read it again?
20:40:21 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Improve would be one that merely
20:40:24 makes the adoption of the amended question equivalent
20:40:26 to a rejection of the original motion.
20:40:29 So if your motion, sir, was to, let's say, amend the
20:40:32 motion to less than six months, make 2002 weeks, that

20:40:36 might be more germane to the question, if that were
20:40:39 your substitution.
20:40:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'll withdraw that, but I still
20:40:43 believe it's not a rejection of the original motion at
20:40:47 all.
20:40:48 But I'll not argue it.
20:40:55 I'll withdraw the motion.
20:40:57 Unless you want to argue the withdrawing of the
20:41:00 motion.
20:41:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay, Mr. Fletcher.
20:41:04 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Just so we are clear I want to
20:41:06 kind of lay out where we are, and if this motion were
20:41:09 to pass going forward.
20:41:11 The motion as I understand it is to reject the
20:41:14 offer -- or the proposal that has been brought
20:41:17 forward, to send it back to the administration.
20:41:21 Our position, the city attorney's office, will be that
20:41:23 the prior agreement is still in place, even though
20:41:27 it's been expired and we are still due the franchise
20:41:31 fee under that agreement.
20:41:33 TECO's position will probably be contrary.
20:41:36 And if they were to choose to litigate this issue

20:41:39 would only be required to pay us a lesser amount of
20:41:42 money during that period that we were able to
20:41:45 demonstrate in that certain standard.
20:41:47 >> Not according to the cases you showed us.
20:41:49 >> Well, the case that --
20:41:52 >> The case that you showed us said that it goes on as
20:41:59 a -- what do they call it, a tenant?
20:42:02 >> A holdover tenant.
20:42:03 >> A holdover tenant.
20:42:05 >>> And that's my position.
20:42:10 Just wanted to make you all aware of what the
20:42:14 potential fact is here.
20:42:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Right.
20:42:19 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I just want to make sure that no
20:42:21 one --
20:42:22 To understand the consequences is what you are saying.
20:42:24 You want to make sure we understand the consequences.
20:42:26 >>> Exactly.
20:42:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
20:42:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Fletcher, would you prefer that
20:42:33 I do what I did initially, which is suggest that we
20:42:36 just continue this?

20:42:40 >>> I don't know that that gets you to a significantly
20:42:43 different place.
20:42:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
20:42:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The motion is that we reject the
20:42:48 franchise agreement and send it back to the
20:42:50 administration.
20:42:51 Okay.
20:42:53 All in favor of the motion signify by saying Aye.
20:42:56 Opposes?
20:43:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: 4 to 2.
20:43:04 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with --
20:43:06 Did you vote?
20:43:08 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Miranda and Scott
20:43:10 voting no and Miller being absent.
20:43:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So the motion carried 4 to 2.
20:43:15 Okay.
20:43:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Mr. Chairman, just housekeeping.
20:43:27 We are going to give Diane green a commendation.
20:43:30 She's going to come in December 4th at 9 a.m.
20:43:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
20:43:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: She's from MacDill Air Force
20:43:38 Base.

20:43:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor?
20:43:40 Opposes?
20:43:41 Thank you.
20:43:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: There's a strange policy that I
20:43:45 think everyone wants to change, but they need
20:43:47 direction from council, that the fire chief will not
20:43:50 inspect buildings that are abandoned on the second
20:43:52 floor even if they are inhabited on the first floor.
20:43:55 The fire we had in Ybor across the street from the
20:43:57 Columbia was not inspected by the fire chief because
20:44:00 it was vacant on the second floor.
20:44:01 And there's another building in Ybor City that was
20:44:04 brought to my attention on the 15th and 7th
20:44:07 that is inhabited on the first floor, abandoned on the
20:44:10 second floor, and what I would like to do is request
20:44:14 that the administration consider changing that policy,
20:44:16 and inspect the buildings that are inhabited on the
20:44:20 first floor.
20:44:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Fletcher, did you want to speak to
20:44:25 that?
20:44:26 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: We do have one other item on the
20:44:28 agenda.

20:44:29 The MacKay Bay agreement.
20:44:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I thought it was all part of the same
20:44:32 motion.
20:44:32 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Okay, if that was your intent.
20:44:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's my intent.
20:44:37 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I understood it to be all the same, we
20:44:41 opened and discussed all of them.
20:44:42 Okay.
20:44:43 There's a motion on the floor.
20:44:44 It's moved and seconded.
20:44:45 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
20:44:47 Motion to receive and file.
20:44:49 >> So moved.
20:44:50 >> Second.
20:44:50 (Motion carried).
20:44:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
20:44:52 Clerk?
20:44:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I just want to be clear that the
20:44:58 clerk understand that is motion applies to both one
20:45:00 and two.
20:45:00 I just want to be clear.
20:45:01 >>THE CLERK: The motion was to reject both agreements.

20:45:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you.
20:45:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anything else?
20:45:09 We stand adjourned.
20:45:11
20:45:11

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