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09:06:29 TAMPA CITY COUNCIL MEETING
Thursday, March 26, 2009
9:00 a.m. session

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09:07:33 [Sounding gavel]
09:07:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Tampa City Council will now come to
09:07:35 order.
09:07:35 The chair will yield to the honorable Charlie Miranda.
09:07:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Chairman Scott.
09:07:41 It's my pleasure this morning to introduce a friend
09:07:46 that is known to all of us that chaired many years on
09:07:49 council.
09:07:49 We celebrated the month of March as women's history
09:07:52 month and Rose Ferlita was selected as this year's
09:07:55 recipient of the Josephine Sanford memorial award.
09:07:59 This past Tuesday she was also recognized by the Girl
09:08:02 Scouts of west central Florida as a woman of
09:08:04 distinction.
09:08:05 We already knew that she's our friend, and this
09:08:08 morning she's here to give the invocation.
09:08:10 Along with that, I remember she was a very young lady,
09:08:14 not that she's much older than being a young lady now,
09:08:17 when the bakery was in full force and the bread was
09:08:20 delivered door to door, and she was always helping her
09:08:23 family do that.

09:08:25 We welcome Rose Ferlita this morning to say the
09:08:28 invocation.
09:08:28 Please rise for the invocation.
09:08:30 Remain standing for the pledge of allegiance.
09:08:35 >> Rose Ferlita.
09:08:36 Good morning.
09:08:38 Mr. Chairman, colleagues, Mr. Shelby, it is my
09:08:40 pleasure to be here.
09:08:41 It's always good to be back in these chambers, and
09:08:44 deliver the invocation.
09:08:45 Thank you.
09:08:46 The different denominations of faith expressed at this
09:08:49 podium over the years have been numerous and
09:08:51 extensive.
09:08:51 Each expressing their own prayer to the Lord and each
09:08:54 thanking God according to their own beliefs.
09:08:58 Expressions of faith become one and that it is not how
09:09:00 you pray to God but rather that you pray to God.
09:09:04 My Catholic beliefs become one with yours and yours
09:09:07 with other denominations.
09:09:08 We pray as one city, one county, one community.
09:09:12 As citizens of these United States, we support and

09:09:15 pray for our new president and members of the new
09:09:18 administration in Washington.
09:09:20 All of our differences and disagreements may be put
09:09:23 aside as we continue to be one nation under God.
09:09:27 We must realize that in the midst of burdensome tasks,
09:09:30 hardships, financial challenges, we are still the
09:09:35 luckiest nation in the world and we have our God,
09:09:37 yours and mine, to thank for those blessings.
09:09:40 May God guide each of you as you continue your service
09:09:43 to the citizens of Tampa.
09:09:44 Council members, I pray that your respected times of
09:09:48 service will be filled with successes and good
09:09:50 intentions.
09:09:51 May God bless you, the citizens of this city, this
09:09:53 county, and this nation.
09:09:55 In God's name I pray this all for you.
09:09:57 Amen.
09:10:01 (Pledge of Allegiance).
09:10:15 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, commissioner.
09:10:17 >>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
09:10:18 You have to realize that was a risk.
09:10:20 Anytime you get invited by Mr. Miranda and he

09:10:22 introduces you, God knows what he's going to say.
09:10:25 Thank you, Charlie.
09:10:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You're very lucky that I didn't go
09:10:29 any further.
09:10:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you for coming.
09:10:31 Roll call.
09:10:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:10:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Here.
09:10:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:10:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:10:38 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:10:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:10:41 The chair will yield now to the honorable Gwen Miller.
09:10:58 >>GWEN MILLER: It's my honor this morning that we are
09:11:00 going to recognize the Officer of the Month.
09:11:02 And I'm not going to do it.
09:11:04 I'm going to let Chief Hogue do it.
09:11:07 Chief, will you come up, please?
09:11:10 >> Chief Hogue: Thank you, council, for once again
09:11:13 recognizing our Officer of the Month.
09:11:15 It's a great honor for each office to -- officer to
09:11:18 receive this award, and always look forward to coming

09:11:21 over here and being recognized by this council.
09:11:24 This month, we have selected Sergeant Eric Ward who is
09:11:28 standing here to my right.
09:11:30 And this is an exceptional individual of the Tampa
09:11:32 Police Department.
09:11:34 You know, there's a few people in the reorganization
09:11:39 and thank God there is that you can go to to get the
09:11:44 job done and to get results in difficult situations,
09:11:48 and that's what Eric is.
09:11:49 And he's been that way for a complete career.
09:11:51 And recently, we had a need to send him to the canine
09:11:56 unit, which is a particularly difficult unit to
09:12:00 supervise.
09:12:01 One, Eric knows nothing at the time of police canines
09:12:08 and it's a difficult unit to supervise because there's
09:12:11 18 people that work for Eric.
09:12:12 A normal sergeant has about half that number people.
09:12:15 A normal sergeant squad works with the squad.
09:12:19 Eric's people are stretched out over seven days a
09:12:21 week, 24 hours a day, different cycles.
09:12:25 And he has to manage these, and of course he's held
09:12:28 responsible for what they do, and lots of times he's

09:12:30 not even anywhere near them, or home asleep when they
09:12:34 are doing the things that are getting Eric in trouble.
09:12:37 [ Laughter ]
09:12:43 That sergeant is one of the few positions on the
09:12:45 police department where that sergeant also is required
09:12:47 to carry the exact same responsibility as an officer.
09:12:50 Normally at the police department, the sergeant is a
09:12:53 supervisor and spends their time supervising the other
09:12:56 officers but Eric not only has that responsibility but
09:12:58 he has to have a canine, also.
09:13:01 So he has to have canine just like any other officer
09:13:04 that when he's on the street that if we need a canine
09:13:07 unit he's available.
09:13:08 And once again, Eric steps up, because we have a
09:13:11 couple of bloodhounds.
09:13:13 Bloodhounds are a little more difficult to have than
09:13:16 our regular canine dogs, and Eric took one of those
09:13:19 bloodhounds, Matti, which was a young puppy when he
09:13:24 got her and now she's developed into one of our better
09:13:27 trackers.
09:13:28 And Eric not only had to learn how to be a canine
09:13:33 officer, had to take the new dog into his family.

09:13:36 Those dogs become part of their family.
09:13:38 The dog lives in his house.
09:13:39 It's not like it stays in a kennel down here.
09:13:42 It's a real requirement to become a canine officer at
09:13:45 all, and then sergeant of course everything to accept
09:13:47 that same level of responsibility when it comes to
09:13:50 having the animal.
09:13:52 He also has to learn how to be a canine officer
09:13:55 himself.
09:13:56 He didn't even have any idea how to do that, because
09:13:59 he had never been in that business before.
09:14:02 To become a canine officer and then to being a
09:14:05 supervisor.
09:14:06 And learning how to train a dog, the trainer has to
09:14:09 learn how to be a canine handler, also.
09:14:13 So there's just a whole bunch of responsibilities.
09:14:16 We had a need.
09:14:17 We asked Eric to step up.
09:14:19 And he's not only done everything we have asked him to
09:14:22 do, he's exceeded in every way, and moved that squad
09:14:26 up another level in our organization, and we are very,
09:14:31 very proud of him, and that's why we recognize him as

09:14:34 Officer of the Month.
09:14:35 Thank you very much, Eric.
09:14:36 [ Applause ]
09:14:44 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to present you this
09:14:45 commendation, that said all those good things he said
09:14:48 but I am not going to read it.
09:14:50 At this time, we will have the public come up and give
09:14:53 you some good things, too.
09:14:54 But I am going to start with Charlie's steakhouse, a
09:14:56 gift certificate from Charlie's steakhouse.
09:15:05 >> Danny Lewis from Bill Currie Ford-Mercury.
09:15:11 Too bad you didn't bring your partner.
09:15:15 Thank you for your service to our community.
09:15:24 >> Tom Wagner from the Florida Aquarium.
09:15:26 Congratulations.
09:15:26 You honor us with your duty and service.
09:15:29 This is an annual membership for four to the Florida
09:15:32 Aquarium.
09:15:33 Please enjoy it and bring your family.
09:15:36 [ Applause ]
09:15:39 >> I have had a great pleasure to work with Eric over
09:15:42 the years from our union.

09:15:45 It's a great honor and pleasure to present with law
09:15:48 enforcement supply, the PBA, $100 gift certificate for
09:15:55 you, sir.
09:15:57 [ Applause ]
09:16:00 >> Sergeant, congratulations.
09:16:10 >> Good morning, council.
09:16:12 I'm Michelle Patty from Michelle Patty attorney and
09:16:18 referral service.
09:16:19 This is for you to go to Dillard's so you can't bring
09:16:22 that canine.
09:16:23 We would like to thank you for accepting the challenge
09:16:26 and a job well done.
09:16:27 God bless you.
09:16:30 [ Applause ]
09:16:30 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepp's towing.
09:16:34 Congratulations for stepping up and taking in that
09:16:37 dog, and being a handler.
09:16:43 On behalf of Stepps towing we would like to present a
09:16:46 statue to you for a job well done.
09:16:48 We also have a gift certificate to Lee Roy Selmon's.
09:16:52 Thank you very much.
09:16:54 [ Applause ]

09:16:56 >> It's good to see you.
09:17:00 Nice to be seen, right?
09:17:02 Congratulations to you.
09:17:03 On behalf of Bryn Allen studios we would like to
09:17:07 present you with a gift certificate to have your
09:17:08 family portraits done, and you just have to call and
09:17:11 schedule that.
09:17:13 On behalf of David laxer and Bern's steakhouse
09:17:17 presenting you with a $100 gift certificate to enjoy
09:17:20 yourself at Bern's and maybe they will give you a bone
09:17:24 for the dog.
09:17:25 On behalf of Rigatoni's we are presenting you with a
09:17:28 $50 gift certificate to enjoy yourself over there and
09:17:31 enjoy your lunch.
09:17:32 Congratulations again.
09:17:33 We appreciate what you are doing.
09:17:35 [ Applause ]
09:17:42 >> From island flowers in Ybor.
09:17:45 This is for you, but to give to your wife.
09:17:48 And then I have one for the City Council and one for
09:17:52 Rose Ferlita.
09:17:55 [ Applause ]

09:18:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Rose Ferlita.
09:18:04 >> I didn't mean to barge into this part of your
09:18:06 agenda but I was lucky twice.
09:18:09 First Charlie invited me to make the invocation and
09:18:15 accidentally it was the day that we congratulate our
09:18:17 officers for doing what they have done for of and
09:18:20 ever, and Chief Hogue reminded me that understood my
09:18:22 watch as public safety chair, we did in fact start the
09:18:26 Officer of the Month.
09:18:27 And he remembers when.
09:18:30 I didn't want to GOP without saying thank you,
09:18:32 sergeant.
09:18:33 You are in the line of many champions for us.
09:18:36 That's one thing I will tell you over the last two,
09:18:38 two and a half years or however long I have been at
09:18:40 county commission.
09:18:41 Because we don't take the opportunity to thank our law
09:18:44 enforcement as orphan as you do structurally,
09:18:47 quarterly, monthly and everything else.
09:18:49 Always a testimony to what you guys do, and sometimes
09:18:52 we take that for granted.
09:18:53 It's so easy because you provide safety, and we expect

09:18:58 it and it's certainly a compliment to you and to the
09:19:00 leadership that continues to be there for TPD.
09:19:03 And I just didn't want to go on foe without saying
09:19:06 thank you so much for what you do and I appreciate it.
09:19:09 [ Applause ]
09:19:18 >> I want to thank the chief and staff for recognizing
09:19:21 me for this award.
09:19:23 There's a lot of people at the police department that
09:19:25 work really hard on a day-to-day basis, and it's a
09:19:30 great honor and I appreciate it.
09:19:32 I would also like to thank all the donors that
09:19:34 provided me with gifts for me and my family.
09:19:37 I'll enjoy it.
09:19:38 I'll bring the dog with me.
09:19:41 [ Laughter ]
09:20:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Our first workshop on our agenda for
09:20:09 today is to discuss issues related to the vendor code.
09:20:16 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
09:20:26 The handout is three pages.
09:20:37 The second page of that handout is the vendor
09:20:40 permitting workshop outline.
09:20:43 If you recall, there was an amendment that was

09:20:48 processed in November for some changes to the vendor
09:20:52 regulations which made the regulations a little less
09:20:59 stringent and took down some of the barriers for the
09:21:03 vendors that we were turning away.
09:21:05 And in that discussion, you had numerous vendors.
09:21:08 Vendors actually attend and talk about other issues
09:21:10 that they had, and any barriers that they had.
09:21:14 Some of them vending on residential property, some of
09:21:17 them vending around the stadium, some of them just
09:21:20 having glitches with leases versus ownership signage,
09:21:27 signing on the applications and such.
09:21:28 I think the last point, I believe the Honeywell spoke,
09:21:36 Mr. Preston spoke for them, this one in particular.
09:21:40 I have worked with them on just the language and the
09:21:42 conditions about using leases working to better
09:21:51 understand the owner is ultimately responsible for the
09:21:53 activity on the property.
09:21:57 Some vendors especially on larger parcels, the owners
09:22:00 of those parcels are out of state or everyone out of
09:22:02 country sometimes.
09:22:03 They are absentee owners and run through management
09:22:06 companies until leases are obtained.

09:22:09 So I worked through the legal department and with
09:22:10 those leases to make sure that language is identified.
09:22:14 There will be a minor change in the next cycle that
09:22:16 shows that language in the code when you see the
09:22:22 workshop.
09:22:23 That's the only change we are proposing is just
09:22:25 clean-up of the ownership language.
09:22:30 This is basically an open meeting to discuss those
09:22:36 issues with the vendors.
09:22:37 I would like to hear from them as well.
09:22:39 This is just a highlight on page 2 going over the
09:22:41 changes that were made.
09:22:44 There are five types of vendors.
09:22:46 If you look at the fifth bullet with the four circled
09:22:49 bullets those are just some changes that were made in
09:22:51 the last cycle.
09:22:53 But as I said, the next cycle will include that
09:22:56 change, the minor clean-up of the application
09:22:59 requirements.
09:22:59 And then actually there was a direction by council, I
09:23:05 think Mr. Dingfelder made the correction, the creation
09:23:08 of a sports entertainment district boundary around

09:23:11 those four areas -- I'm sorry, three areas in the code
09:23:16 that are currently there for sports entertainment, to
09:23:19 create a hard boundary in the code that's for those
09:23:22 events that vending can occur subject to these
09:23:24 regulations regardless of zoning, but only with those
09:23:27 special events.
09:23:28 Council actually made that motion.
09:23:29 So I'm moving forward with that as well.
09:23:32 So I'm just interested to hear from the public on what
09:23:34 the issues are, actually.
09:23:37 Thank you.
09:23:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any questions from council?
09:23:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: One of the things the workshops is
09:23:53 here for us and really I would like to have the
09:23:55 information in advance so I have an opportunity to
09:23:57 read through them and jot down any questions so when
09:23:59 you hand them to us on the morning of, it doesn't give
09:24:02 us really enough time to digest and read through that.
09:24:05 And I want to be clear on that, one of the things that
09:24:09 happened is an emergency ordinance.
09:24:11 That's going to come back later.
09:24:13 But I just don't like getting things at the last

09:24:15 minute like that.
09:24:17 And then we are forced to try to make a decision when
09:24:21 we have not had an opportunity to read through some of
09:24:23 the material.
09:24:24 It is always to our advantage to get the material at
09:24:28 least in advance to have an opportunity to read
09:24:30 through it or raise any questions we may have.
09:24:32 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I apologize for that.
09:24:36 Basically because of when the motion was made, it was
09:24:38 an open discussion.
09:24:39 I wasn't really sure where it was going to go myself.
09:24:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:24:45 Yes.
09:24:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Cathy, thank you for this outline.
09:24:50 At the bottom of page 2, you mention as directed, I
09:24:57 guess coming up soon or something or as directed by
09:25:00 council, creation of a sports entertainment boundary,
09:25:03 zoning classification, allowing for vending of events
09:25:06 at the adjacent venues.
09:25:08 I remember that discussion.
09:25:12 I was wondering what council's motion was about how
09:25:16 broad that motion was and when are we doing that?

09:25:22 >> Actually at the end of the workshop, because the
09:25:24 next three are me.
09:25:26 I was going to ask for a May 28th workshop to do
09:25:29 the code amendment workshop for the January cycle.
09:25:32 It will be coming to you in the May 28th workshop
09:25:36 if I can get that scheduled.
09:25:42 You directed me to go back and looking at that
09:25:45 boundary and figuring a way to create -- we use the
09:25:48 term clean zone, but without all the requirements of
09:25:52 white tents and so on, but creating that hard boundary
09:25:55 that allows for vendors to operate on the properties
09:25:58 within that boundary.
09:25:59 And it wasn't -- there was no hard direction of it has
09:26:03 to be these streets.
09:26:04 It is basically the boundary around those venues.
09:26:07 It was something that was going to be discussed.
09:26:09 Because I believe everyone Mr. Miranda said he would
09:26:11 motion for it to discuss it but he would have some
09:26:14 concerns at that point, too.
09:26:16 As I remember from the transcript.
09:26:17 >> This was in recognition of the fact that many of
09:26:21 these activities are already happening so we might as

09:26:26 well accommodate them in some way in our code.
09:26:29 >> You have some of them occurring on residential
09:26:31 properties when you look at Raymond James and the
09:26:36 zoning around it, maybe half the properties are zoned
09:26:38 for office or commercial, along Himes, but a lot of
09:26:41 them are still residentially zoned, but major streets,
09:26:45 and son vending and parking and other types of
09:26:48 activity do occur on those properties and you heard
09:26:50 from some of those people that have those issues.
09:26:52 So it was really trying to address fully for those
09:26:56 special events to allow within this boundary that kind
09:26:58 of activity to occur.
09:26:59 So I was going to bring that boundary back to you with
09:27:02 some general language to discuss.
09:27:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is something I need
09:27:10 clarification and understanding.
09:27:14 Specifically thinking of Gasparilla.
09:27:16 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Yes.
09:27:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Is that addressed in one of these
09:27:22 five categories?
09:27:24 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It would be special events.
09:27:26 Let me clarify.

09:27:27 The vendors that we regulate in the zoning code on
09:27:30 private property, okay, the special event vendors that
09:27:32 you see within the public right-of-way when there's a
09:27:34 block party or street festival that you actually
09:27:38 approve on your agenda, that goes through the special
09:27:39 events permitting process through parks and
09:27:42 recreation, and if they close that street they
09:27:44 actually have a map or they designate vendors within
09:27:47 the right-of-way because the streets are closed.
09:27:48 We don't permit those vendors.
09:27:50 We only permit them on surrounding properties if they
09:27:52 are allowed, on private property.
09:27:55 So our special event vendors are solely on private
09:27:58 property outside of that street closure boundary, the
09:28:01 festival boundary.
09:28:02 >> So the very first thing that you list here under
09:28:06 current permitting process, vendors or special uses,
09:28:12 one that's decided at an administrative level at City
09:28:17 Council, that's not the people who are selling alcohol
09:28:19 during Gasparilla, correct?
09:28:21 >>> That is not a vendor permit.
09:28:23 That is a temporary alcohol special use permit.

09:28:26 >> And those are approved by council?
09:28:29 >>> No.
09:28:29 >> Those are approved administratively?
09:28:31 >>> Correct.
09:28:32 >> How does the public have input into that process?
09:28:37 >>> The temporary sales?
09:28:40 They do not.
09:28:41 They technically didn't under the old code either.
09:28:44 There wasn't a public hearing on your agenda.
09:28:45 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So if the public has concerns about
09:28:50 that, their way of providing input is to appeal to the
09:28:54 mayor?
09:28:55 >>> You have to go back and look policywise at
09:29:00 changing the code ultimately, deciding what to do with
09:29:02 those temporary vendors.
09:29:03 The temporary alcohol sales.
09:29:05 >> Currently that's handled administratively and
09:29:07 throws no public input process?
09:29:09 >>> That's correct.
09:29:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:29:12 >>CATHERINE COYLE: You're welcome.
09:29:19 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Ms. Coyle, your code allows an

09:29:22 additional 30 days to file when they file.
09:29:24 Where did that $500, how long has that been there?
09:29:28 Has it always been $500 when you look for an extension
09:29:31 of 30 days?
09:29:33 >>> You skipped to the alcohol permitting?
09:29:35 Sorry.
09:29:36 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Yes.
09:29:37 That's not in one?
09:29:39 >>CATHERINE COYLE: No.
09:29:43 Are there any on the vendor questions?
09:29:50 >>GWEN MILLER: Questions on the vendors?
09:29:51 So that concludes your presentation, I guess.
09:29:54 We'll take public comment.
09:29:55 Anyone who wishes to address council on the vendor
09:29:59 code.
09:30:09 >> Todd Pressman, 28870 U.S. Highway 19 North, Suite
09:30:11 300, Clearwater, Florida.
09:30:14 I guess it was my misimpression this is a workshop for
09:30:18 council, but we will submit it to you before we can
09:30:23 make comments.
09:30:23 I just want to make you aware that we may have comment
09:30:27 in the future to look at that.

09:30:28 Mr. Chairman, thank you.
09:30:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:30:34 We need to make sure to get copies.
09:30:36 >>> Wolford Johnson, 4625 Longfellow Avenue, Tampa,
09:30:50 T.H.A.N.
09:30:50 Regarding the vendor's ordinance, while it not
09:30:53 perfect, it is an improvement over what we had a
09:30:55 couple of years ago.
09:30:58 We urge you not to make exceptions for any one person
09:31:03 or industry.
09:31:07 From a neighborhood perspective we ask that do you not
09:31:10 change the hours of operation for any of the vendors,
09:31:13 and especially the temporary vendors.
09:31:16 Also the signage allowance should be consistent for
09:31:19 all vendors and should be tweaked to bring large
09:31:31 billboard signs on the sides of trailers on their
09:31:34 site.
09:31:34 I can give you a couple photos.
09:31:52 You can see the trailer with the large sign on it.
09:32:02 This is a shot of the first trailer.
09:32:26 You can see particularly along Gandy Boulevard because
09:32:30 they are making tremendous improvements down there in

09:32:32 Gandy, on Gandy, and Gandy is really right now, the
09:32:41 corner construction, but I was impressed with these
09:32:43 streetlights.
09:32:45 They really are very impressive.
09:32:48 And to have these type things go up for a couple of
09:32:50 months every year just seems to really take away from
09:32:55 the road, to the neighborhood, and we think it should
09:32:57 be addressed.
09:33:02 Aspect to selling of alcoholic beverages particularly
09:33:06 during Gasparilla, we have not specifically discussed
09:33:09 this point at T.H.A.N., but I'm fairly certain we
09:33:14 would have agreement that there needs to be more
09:33:16 restrictions and that needs to be addressed.
09:33:20 I understand there is a committee looking at that of
09:33:22 citizens and so forth, and as that progresses, then we
09:33:25 hope there can be some improvements to eliminate some
09:33:28 of the problems that the residents along there on
09:33:31 Bayshore and in those areas nearby there can get some
09:33:37 relief from the standpoint of what's going on.
09:33:41 Thank you.
09:33:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you for coming.
09:33:47 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else?

09:33:48 Okay, yes.
09:33:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Ms. Coyle?
09:33:54 This is an issue that we have been grappling with for
09:33:57 a very long time and I want to compliment you.
09:33:59 I think what you have come to us with is very
09:34:02 reasonable, and it really reflects the concerns of the
09:34:04 neighborhood.
09:34:06 They are concerned that the investments made in
09:34:09 people's residential areas are being degraded by
09:34:14 slap-dash vendors and people immediately adjacent, and
09:34:19 that the commercial property owners who pay taxes and
09:34:23 who abide by our billboard ordinance are being
09:34:26 disadvantaged by temporary vendors who come like in
09:34:30 the photograph that was shown and put up the giant
09:34:34 billboard that wouldn't be allowed at all under our
09:34:36 sign code, and that actually have an advantage over
09:34:39 the tax-paying, you know, firmly entrenched businesses
09:34:43 that are paying rent.
09:34:44 I think what you have provided us is really good.
09:34:47 And I wondered what the next step is for us to
09:34:49 implement this.
09:34:49 >>CATHERINE COYLE: At this point the code is already

09:34:53 implemented.
09:34:53 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: If we wanted to make any changes to
09:34:57 it.
09:34:58 >>> Yes, this is really directed as an open discussion
09:35:00 because of the concerns that were raised.
09:35:02 I think at this point just to remind council that you
09:35:05 have adopted the citation process and that vendors are
09:35:09 on that citation list.
09:35:10 So code enforcement and TPD has the ability to issue
09:35:14 citations for vendors that are actually -- there have
09:35:17 been vendors around the city who have been ticketed or
09:35:20 cited.
09:35:22 It's an instantaneous citation.
09:35:24 It's not please comply within 30 days, it's "here is
09:35:28 your fine."
09:35:29 Implementing that tool as well has really helped keep
09:35:33 track of the code essentially and making sure people
09:35:35 comply.
09:35:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, I have to say that I think
09:35:38 that vendors are not equally distributed throughout
09:35:41 the city.
09:35:41 I think that basically affluent neighborhoods have

09:35:45 less issue and than less affluent neighborhood and it
09:35:51 harder for them than in the less affluent
09:35:54 neighborhoods to compete with these sign vendors so to
09:35:59 protect the neighborhoods and the commercial property
09:36:01 owners and storekeepers throughout Tampa.
09:36:04 So thank you.
09:36:05 >> Well, not only cited but some of them have been
09:36:13 closed down immediately because I have gotten phone
09:36:15 calls.
09:36:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: On a related issue, I think Linda
09:36:19 had mentioned the Gasparilla, concerns that arose this
09:36:25 year especially after Gasparilla, and then I think
09:36:30 that apparently are being addressed in the community
09:36:36 with meetings and staff attending and that sort of
09:36:39 thing, but I would suggest in the fall around October
09:36:47 that we bring those issues to a workshop of council to
09:36:51 see -- that gives the police and parks and recs and
09:36:56 other departments in the community the opportunity to
09:36:58 come forth with their suggestions, tell us what kind
09:37:01 of improvements everybody made, also obviously the
09:37:05 various crews and organizers can come talk to us as
09:37:08 well, and make sure that these issues are being

09:37:15 addressed because there have been some problems.
09:37:17 They seem to be mounting.
09:37:19 They go in cycles on these types of things.
09:37:22 We don't want to overreact, and Gasparilla is a
09:37:25 wonderful thing for our community.
09:37:27 But at the same time we need to keep a lid on it as
09:37:29 well.
09:37:32 So I would like to make a motion that in our October
09:37:35 workshop that I guess if there's nothing else yet on
09:37:41 October that we go ahead and schedule that for 9:15 or
09:37:47 whatever.
09:37:48 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: October 22nd.
09:37:49 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Chairman, just for the purposes
09:37:51 of having it listed in the agenda as a motion, what is
09:37:55 the specific purpose for?
09:37:59 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That staff, TPD, the parks and rec,
09:38:04 and various other staff that are involved, come speak
09:38:08 to us about improvements to Gasparilla that will be
09:38:14 made in, what year is that, 2010?
09:38:19 And then also that we would invite the organizers --
09:38:27 >> I thought it was event makers but I'm not sure.
09:38:33 Ye Mystic Krewe?

09:38:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The company that does that and ye
09:38:39 mystic Krewe, the appropriate organizers that we work
09:38:42 with year in and year out on these issues.
09:38:45 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I would recommend transportation as
09:38:47 well.
09:38:47 They do permit the street issues.
09:38:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Right.
09:38:50 And one of the big issues -- and some people say, this
09:38:53 isn't a council issue, it's a staff issue.
09:38:55 But what council does every year now probably almost
09:38:59 on our consent agenda is we approve these little beer
09:39:02 gardens out on the right-of-way.
09:39:07 Especially around Hyde Park.
09:39:10 And this is a recent thing, those little beer stands I
09:39:14 think we have only been doing that for the last, I
09:39:16 think, three, four years or so is my understanding.
09:39:19 Anyway, at least to the magnitude that they are now.
09:39:23 So, you know, that's something that council needs to
09:39:26 think long and hard about, you know.
09:39:28 Do we have too much beer being served out there?
09:39:32 I was told by TPD, you know, that what used to
09:39:36 happen -- it wasn't TPD, somebody else.

09:39:38 What used to happen was as people would bring coolers
09:39:41 down with their beer, and we didn't like that either,
09:39:44 so now we just served the beer instead, but I think
09:39:49 there was too much beers, and then beer ends up in
09:39:52 people's yards one way or the other.
09:39:56 Anyway, that's my motion.
09:39:58 Let's talk about it in October.
09:40:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I just want to enclosure up
09:40:04 something Ms. Coyle said earlier, about Himes being
09:40:08 commercial.
09:40:08 It might be commercial on the west side and north of
09:40:11 Tampa Bay Boulevard.
09:40:11 But south of there, only the areas that were
09:40:15 designated commercial many, many years ago, it's
09:40:17 mainly all residential.
09:40:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Is there a second for the motion?
09:40:26 >> Second.
09:40:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
09:40:28 Yes?
09:40:29 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I would say would it be set for
09:40:31 9 a.m. then?
09:40:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: 9:00.

09:40:37 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
09:40:39 Opposes?
09:40:40 Okay.
09:40:46 >>> Can you complete the motion for the record?
09:40:49 >> A workshop on Gasparilla, all aspects of
09:40:52 Gasparilla, inviting appropriate staff as well as the
09:40:55 organizers.
09:40:55 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Could I state for the record that
09:41:01 it's parks and recreation needs to be mentioned
09:41:03 specifically because they issue the special events
09:41:05 permit.
09:41:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'll leave it broadly and let staff
09:41:13 as appropriate.
09:41:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Whoever needs to be there, make sure
09:41:16 they are there.
09:41:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't know who would do the
09:41:19 invites, that we need to let the event fest folks and
09:41:22 the crew, Ye Mystic Krewe, we'll specifically name
09:41:27 them, so they would be invited to come join us as
09:41:30 well.
09:41:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I would hope, since the motion is
09:41:34 broad, the staff would know or find out who the

09:41:36 persons are, would invite them to be here.
09:41:39 I don't think it's that complicated, I don't think.
09:41:42 I mean parks and rec would know.
09:41:45 >>CATHERINE COYLE: That's why I mention parks and rec
09:41:47 specifically because they did deal with it on a
09:41:49 regular basis.
09:41:51 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Santiago will figure it out.
09:41:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The motion passed.
09:41:57 We will move to the 9:30 workshop, status on the
09:42:01 greater Seminole Heights community plan.
09:42:03 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
09:42:06 If you flip to page 3.
09:42:11 This is simply an update on time lines for Seminole
09:42:14 Heights, kind of where we are in the progress.
09:42:18 The visioning phase, as you will note, is complete.
09:42:22 And the code development phase is actually in
09:42:24 progress.
09:42:25 We do have some upcoming charrette working sessions,
09:42:30 April 28th and 29th and May 27th 6 p.m. at
09:42:40 the Reagan center park east Lake Avenue.
09:42:42 It is open to the public.
09:42:43 What we do is we mail postcards out to each individual

09:42:46 property owner within Seminole Heights.
09:42:49 Very decorative postcard, multicolored.
09:42:52 And it gives them a table of when all the meetings
09:42:55 are.
09:42:55 We have already had two sessions.
09:42:57 One in January, one in February, to develop the
09:42:59 regulations.
09:43:00 We are in the process of doing the outline for the
09:43:02 code itself.
09:43:03 And then the last few sessions are to fill in the
09:43:07 things like landscaping, signage, parking issues,
09:43:10 reuse of buildings, things like that.
09:43:12 The August 2009 cycle for the plan amendment is when
09:43:18 we are to submit.
09:43:18 I brought these just for your reference.
09:43:20 It's not something you have to review today.
09:43:35 This is just the draft.
09:43:39 We are just in preparation of actually completing the
09:43:43 final version.
09:43:44 I just wanted to give you a heads up on what it was.
09:43:47 But that is a vision plan draft.
09:43:49 The March version of it.

09:43:50 The August version will be the final draft obviously
09:43:52 for the submittal to the Planning Commission.
09:43:54 We are estimating adoption by summer of 2010 and then
09:43:58 the code amendment portion, we are rewriting
09:44:01 essentially the land development regulations which
09:44:03 come to you as well.
09:44:05 We are estimated adoption also by summer 2010.
09:44:08 We are trying to make sure they follow the same track.
09:44:10 So as long as everything stays on schedule by the
09:44:13 summer of next year you will have a whole new land
09:44:16 development regulation for Seminole Heights, both in
09:44:19 the comp plan and in our zoning landscape signage,
09:44:24 transportation, so on, regulations.
09:44:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to compliment you and your
09:44:30 staff for working so hard on this, working so closely
09:44:34 with the citizens, and, frankly, what you are coming
09:44:37 up with is appropriate, it seems to me, not only for
09:44:41 Seminole Heights but for all of the parts of Tampa
09:44:45 that developed prior to cars being the dominant shaper
09:44:50 of our landscape, so the older residential areas will
09:44:53 all benefit from this, and so I want you to come to us
09:44:57 if there's anything helpful we can do to keep this all

09:45:00 on schedule because I think it's really important and
09:45:03 I'm eager for this to be something that the entire
09:45:05 community can anticipate coming to their area.
09:45:14 The Seminole Heights has been active and participatory
09:45:17 and it's a great place to start because it's such an
09:45:19 engaged community.
09:45:21 And if there is a -- as you are going through the
09:45:24 process of the citizens, if you feel it would be
09:45:27 valuable to bring to council some information, and put
09:45:30 it a substantive discussion on the workshop prior to
09:45:36 getting to the very, very end of the line, please do.
09:45:38 Please ask us for that.
09:45:40 Because I know you are going down the road with the
09:45:45 citizens but since we are the ones to actually adopt
09:45:47 it, it would be helpful to be engaged as the process
09:45:52 continues.
09:45:52 Please engage us.
09:45:54 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Just to remind you, we did come in
09:45:57 August of last year to tell you the status.
09:45:59 We are planning on doing probably every other quarter
09:46:02 coming back for the status update with you.
09:46:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern, councilman

09:46:07 Dingfelder.
09:46:07 >>MARY MULHERN: I don't know because your schedule is
09:46:10 on the third page of the vendor thing, on the third
09:46:12 page of the vendor handout, there's the schedule,
09:46:15 future schedule.
09:46:17 My question for you, Cathy, is those future charrettes
09:46:21 working sessions, are those still for Seminole
09:46:24 Heights?
09:46:25 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Yes.
09:46:27 >>MARY MULHERN: So they are still working on it.
09:46:29 I went to a few of the earlier ones and that's where
09:46:31 the planning is getting done.
09:46:38 He had a lot of meetings, didn't you?
09:46:39 >>> Yes.
09:46:40 It takes a lot of meetings.
09:46:42 >> Of course in Seminole Heights there was a lot of
09:46:43 people there, a lot of input.
09:46:45 But I think if you look through the packet you will
09:46:47 get a really good idea.
09:46:48 I don't know, you know, what your final draft is going
09:46:52 to look like.
09:46:52 But I know that there was a lot of community

09:46:56 neighborhood input in this.
09:46:58 >>> It will basically be what you have in front of you
09:47:02 but much more polished.
09:47:04 But just on the same page, if I could, just to give
09:47:07 you a highlight as you discussed, Ms. Saul-Sena, about
09:47:10 moving into other areas, in the update to the
09:47:12 comprehensive plan, we actually wrote in the section
09:47:15 about community planning, form-based codes and put in
09:47:20 several policies and objectives to deal with these
09:47:23 types of regulations and strategies.
09:47:29 Seminole Heights, 40th Street were all listed in a
09:47:32 specific policy that said the city will do these plans
09:47:34 by 2012.
09:47:36 So what you have here is just the generic outline.
09:47:39 We are kicking off the 40th Street planning area in
09:47:42 April.
09:47:42 And you know the city did work in coordination with
09:47:46 the D.O.T. and county in a very large roadway
09:47:49 improvement to the 40th street area.
09:47:50 We are kicking off that in April and the greater Tampa
09:47:54 Heights area will be kicked off in July and then the
09:47:56 outline for the code development phase and ultimately

09:47:58 the adoption of those regulations.
09:47:59 We are going through right now and scheduling the
09:48:02 meetings and working out a final draft of those
09:48:04 schedules which will come back to you in the near
09:48:07 future.
09:48:08 If I could I would just like to recognize my staff, as
09:48:14 you mentioned, LoraLee, LaShon, Samantha Fenger,
09:48:22 amazing people, wouldn't be able to do it without
09:48:24 them.
09:48:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: A couple years ago I attended some
09:48:28 seminars about form based zoning and it's a very
09:48:30 interesting process.
09:48:33 We are not the first community in the country to be
09:48:35 doing it by any means.
09:48:38 It seems to be the new thing in planning.
09:48:46 And that's good.
09:48:47 With that said, Cathy, I think I have expressed
09:48:50 concerns to you and to Tony and to some others about
09:48:59 how, you know, when a new project comes into a
09:49:01 community, the City of Tampa residents are used to
09:49:07 having input on that project here at council.
09:49:12 Usually, these days, usually by the planned

09:49:18 development, sometimes Euclidean but typically PD
09:49:22 these days.
09:49:26 Can you tell council, you know, how this might change
09:49:30 that on a project-by-project basis in terms of, you
09:49:36 know, members of the community are very involved right
09:49:40 now, okay, to put together all of these maps and all
09:49:44 of these drawings, Seminole Heights working like heck,
09:49:48 and I want to commend all the citizens who are putting
09:49:52 all this effort into it.
09:49:53 But five years from now or ten years from now when a
09:49:58 project comes along, to go into Seminole Heights on
09:50:01 that basis, do you envision that project coming in for
09:50:06 the same PD that they have been coming in for?
09:50:11 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The answer would be no to that
09:50:13 specific question.
09:50:14 >> Right.
09:50:15 >>CATHERINE COYLE: And the reason being, our code,
09:50:18 quite frankly, is very outdated.
09:50:20 You deal with that on a PD level, because the
09:50:23 mechanisms that we have in the code are very
09:50:25 cumbersome to get through.
09:50:27 There's layers upon layers upon layers of regulation

09:50:30 simply within the zoning code.
09:50:32 Quite frankly they contradict with many of the on the
09:50:34 regulations that we have.
09:50:35 And we try and have tried in the last ten years or so
09:50:39 to put an end date for those what are called overlay
09:50:46 district, quite frankly.
09:50:47 This type of regulation is really taking what we have,
09:50:53 putting it aside and rewriting the regulation for the
09:50:56 existing landscape and where these people want to go
09:50:58 in the future and it is community by community because
09:51:00 there will be different thresholds area by area.
09:51:02 Certain areas will accept certain changes and some
09:51:05 won't.
09:51:07 The form base is a tool.
09:51:10 It's a very basic form base, the form of the built
09:51:14 environment, and what it is that you are willing to
09:51:16 accept in that area, based on the current street grid
09:51:18 that you have, based on the public realm that you have
09:51:20 and those connections, based on the existing buildings
09:51:24 that are in the area, whether or not any of those are
09:51:26 worth saving or keeping, or whether or not you are
09:51:29 planning some future redevelopment of two stories,

09:51:31 three stories, four stories, where that massing is
09:51:34 actually appropriate, which nodes are appropriate for
09:51:37 that, where transit is planned.
09:51:40 Seminole Heights basically touches all of those
09:51:43 aspects.
09:51:44 Throws six major bus routes.
09:51:46 The future train is just five but there are six major
09:51:49 bus routes, the BRT runs through it.
09:51:51 They are an older established area, residential and
09:51:54 commercial.
09:51:56 The one that really kicked off the form based code
09:51:59 strategy of Seminole Heights is the PD because if you
09:52:03 recall you had to waive virtually oaf half of the
09:52:10 regulations because all they were trying to do was
09:52:14 regulate this type of building.
09:52:16 It's broken down into new construction where you need
09:52:19 a certain regulation or reuse of a building.
09:52:22 That's what we are trying to define now is what those
09:52:24 thresholds are that the neighborhoods will accept
09:52:27 dealing with shared parking, access on local streets,
09:52:29 those key point that are usually of contention with
09:52:34 neighborhoods in front of council.

09:52:36 What happens in a PD, what's in front of you of the
09:52:41 site plan of the property and you have listed off,
09:52:44 listing off the CG, and CG is very well defined.
09:52:49 Well, not very well defined but tells you the set back
09:52:51 and height limitation.
09:52:52 Other than that there's really no restriction on the
09:52:54 type of use or performance standards or design
09:52:58 standards of what is going to be on the property, so
09:53:00 all you have as council is your guiding nine
09:53:04 principles of the PD, and they are fairly loose, and
09:53:06 they talk about compatibility and they talk about
09:53:08 development patterns and so on.
09:53:11 What you don't have is something in the middle that
09:53:13 shows you graphically and better describes what that
09:53:17 box is actually going to be, how it's placed on the
09:53:20 property, how it relates to adjacent properties, how
09:53:23 it relates to the public realm.
09:53:24 That's what this code does.
09:53:25 It gives you the middle.
09:53:26 So ultimately when you are the neighbor next door you
09:53:29 can open up the code and understand, I know what's
09:53:32 going to be built next to me because the code very

09:53:35 clearly defines what it's going to be.
09:53:37 It takes out a lot of the unknown fear element because
09:53:40 it tells you very prescriptively this is what can be
09:53:43 built.
09:53:43 If someone is coming to you through a rezoning
09:53:45 mechanism to change that zone classification with one
09:53:49 of a form-based code you have a better set of tools as
09:53:53 council because the code clearly defines what's
09:53:55 allowed so they are asking you for very specific
09:53:57 variances to what the regulations are through that
09:54:00 rezoning process.
09:54:03 We haven't worked out the process issues fully, but
09:54:05 there will ultimately be a process that comes before
09:54:07 you like a rezoning.
09:54:10 Those design standards.
09:54:11 What you are going to have, though, is not this empty
09:54:15 bucket of CG to PD and you have to fill it in and hope
09:54:18 you get it right.
09:54:19 You are going to have the zoning classifications with
09:54:22 a whole set of very clear design standards, and
09:54:25 somebody asking for something different.
09:54:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: My point is -- and I'm not opposed

09:54:30 to it.
09:54:31 I have just want the community to be fully aware of
09:54:34 where they are headed or where we are headed, and we
09:54:36 are starting in Seminole Heights.
09:54:38 But your master plan is to go elsewhere.
09:54:48 If they meet those design standards they might not
09:54:50 have to come to council, correct?
09:54:52 >>> Correct.
09:54:52 Just like it is today.
09:54:53 If they meet the CG standards they don't come to you.
09:54:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Right.
09:54:57 But the point being is that I think many people in
09:55:01 this community, okay, let's say, for example, a CVS or
09:55:06 Walgreen's is going to be built on the corner of X and
09:55:09 Y in Seminole Heights.
09:55:11 Okay, people in the community see it happening and
09:55:17 it's not a CG zoning right now, they have to get a
09:55:20 rezoning, expect to be able to come to council to have
09:55:22 some input, not to say no, okay, but to have some
09:55:25 input in terms of how that's going to be there or
09:55:29 hours of operation or, you know, other things,
09:55:33 conditions that we traditionally might put on a PD.

09:55:38 They enjoy the opportunity to have some input.
09:55:42 Right now, under the program you are stating if they
09:55:48 come in, and they come and meet with staff and they
09:55:51 say, well, we are going to do this, this, this and
09:55:53 this, and you look at the standards, say you meet the
09:55:55 standards, there's never going to be a sign posted out
09:55:58 there, the community won't necessarily know that
09:56:01 anything is happening until they pull the permit and
09:56:02 start clearing the land.
09:56:04 I mean, I think that's a very real --
09:56:09 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I want to be clear for the people
09:56:11 listening that's what happens on 85% of the properties
09:56:13 in the city.
09:56:15 I mean, you get a very small fraction of requests.
09:56:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Right.
09:56:19 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It those requests that don't meet
09:56:22 the standards today. What is essentially broken is
09:56:24 what the standards are today.
09:56:29 If they don't define anything but a height and
09:56:34 separation, and that cause as lot of grief for people.
09:56:36 That's what is the problem throughout the city, is
09:56:39 because it is an unknown of what is going to be built.

09:56:42 It's a true unknown.
09:56:43 You know that you are going to have this box sitting
09:56:45 at these setbacks, that you ultimately have no idea
09:56:49 how it's going to be shaped, how many stories it's
09:56:52 going to have.
09:56:53 You are going to think it's three or four based on the
09:56:56 height.
09:56:56 You don't necessarily know where it's going to be on
09:56:58 the property, because quite frankly on commercial
09:57:01 districts a lot of them are the setbacks are zero so
09:57:04 it could be all the way in the back obviously with the
09:57:06 parking up front, very minimal landscaping and you
09:57:09 wind up with that suburban style design.
09:57:13 It ultimately has caused some problems.
09:57:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have some concerns, because
09:57:16 what's the average number of people showing up for the
09:57:18 visioning workshops right now?
09:57:20 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It between 50 and 80 depending on
09:57:23 the meeting.
09:57:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Which is a nice turnout.
09:57:26 But the reality is you have got thousands and
09:57:29 thousands of residents, you know, who are going to be

09:57:31 affected, and property owners.
09:57:33 I don't know if your property owners are showing up.
09:57:36 As part of that.
09:57:36 >>> We have quite a few commercial property owners
09:57:39 that have shown up, yes.
09:57:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I'm just throwing it out there.
09:57:43 >> It's going to be a culture shock and culture change
09:57:53 for certain neighborhoods.
09:57:54 I don't know if Wolford is still here.
09:57:59 There he is.
09:57:59 I know they are well engaged.
09:58:01 Through Randy they are probably getting briefed on
09:58:04 what's happening in Seminole Heights.
09:58:05 But it going to be a change in this community in terms
09:58:08 of how things are done in the zoning process.
09:58:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, not really.
09:58:14 Not really to a point.
09:58:15 I will tell you that from my experience with the
09:58:19 county, we went through the plan, workshops, all of
09:58:25 that stuff which is very good.
09:58:27 I think now the different communities and county have
09:58:29 gone through, which took over two years to complete.

09:58:35 >>> The visioning.
09:58:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes, the visioning, meeting with the
09:58:38 neighborhoods and getting that input from this.
09:58:41 So, therefore, as you said, when people go now to
09:58:43 build, they will have this or have document and codes
09:58:47 to look at and see what is going to be and they have
09:58:49 to build according to the standard that the community
09:58:51 has voted upon and ultimately I'm assuming that we
09:58:54 have the last say so we can change the vote on this
09:58:58 and at least with the county we did, we had a public
09:59:00 hearing.
09:59:01 >>> Yes.
09:59:02 >>THOMAS SCOTT: People came in.
09:59:04 However, during those times it was contentious.
09:59:06 Sometimes the community was split in half over the
09:59:08 plan.
09:59:09 Okay.
09:59:09 I'm just telling you.
09:59:10 A lot of times those communities will split right down
09:59:13 the middle over the plan.
09:59:15 And however, we ahead and worked on and tried to get
09:59:20 as much consensus as possible.

09:59:21 The thing, though, is that the community will have an
09:59:25 opportunity to go to these meetings, have opportunity
09:59:26 to have input, you have a public hearing, again have
09:59:29 opportunity before it's finally adopted and in the
09:59:33 plan if anybody is going to do any kind of building or
09:59:36 whatever, they have a plan in place that they can
09:59:38 review and see.
09:59:43 I think it's a wonderful thing for the neighborhood.
09:59:45 I think a very good thing about community-based
09:59:49 planning.
09:59:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I would like to, if I could, I'm
09:59:52 sorry, do it while it's fresh.
09:59:54 I'm not saying it's not wonderful.
09:59:55 I'm not bassing judgment on it one way or the other.
09:59:58 Okay?
09:59:59 I became very informed on this two, three years ago,
10:00:02 all right?
10:00:03 And I think I probably encouraged you guys to move
10:00:06 into it.
10:00:07 But, at the same time, I realize, you know, change is
10:00:12 difficult for people, okay?
10:00:14 And we see all the time.

10:00:16 And this is going to be a change.
10:00:18 It's going to be a change in the way we do things.
10:00:20 I mean, you said it yourself.
10:00:22 And you know it.
10:00:23 And you said you thought about it, you know, in terms
10:00:26 of processes and that sort of thing.
10:00:28 So that's what my whole point S.I want the community,
10:00:31 everybody to know what we are headed towards, to know
10:00:33 it's going to be difficult, you know, hopefully it
10:00:35 will be different in a good way.
10:00:37 And I'm not -- I sound a little pessimist but I wants
10:00:43 everybody to be aware we are headed toward something
10:00:46 different.
10:00:46 >>MARY MULHERN: I understand your concerns and I share
10:00:49 some of them, and I think the important thing, and it
10:00:52 really looks to me like they have been doing it in
10:00:54 Seminole Heights is getting as much public involvement
10:00:57 and input as they can get.
10:00:58 I don't know if you can get 100 percent.
10:01:01 But you can get as much as you try for.
10:01:04 And I think maybe one of my concerns about this, and,
10:01:10 you know, we can talk about this later, and I need to

10:01:13 look through this and see how the plan finally came
10:01:16 out, is the concept of form based codes and community
10:01:22 planning, and especially like Andrew Duany, a lot of
10:01:29 it is based on you have a blank slate and you are
10:01:32 creating a community.
10:01:35 And what we have in Tampa is, you know, we have the
10:01:37 form already.
10:01:38 We have most neighborhoods are pretty much built.
10:01:46 So I think that every one of them, which is great, but
10:01:51 it's an individual neighborhood process, but every one
10:01:54 of them is different.
10:01:58 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Right.
10:01:59 >>MARY MULHERN: I think certain neighborhoods, like,
10:02:01 John, I'm sure you will get involved when they do
10:02:04 Davis Island and Sunset Park, but some of them are so
10:02:08 built out that or so long established.
10:02:15 I know that you know.
10:02:16 But I just had some questions at one of the workshops
10:02:19 about where you were allowing sort of densities, and
10:02:25 also the idea, not just of the form but of the grid
10:02:31 and really holding onto the grid, and I think in an
10:02:33 urban setting that's really important.

10:02:35 So I think there are things to be concerned about,
10:02:38 that I think if worry concerned, we have to get
10:02:40 involved at the planning level.
10:02:42 So that's what you need to do, and let your
10:02:47 constituents know, as many as you can, what's
10:02:50 happening.
10:02:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: But I think you are going to be
10:02:54 surprised, though, that the neighborhoods are very
10:02:56 much involved and engaged.
10:02:58 Ultimately when they come before you, you are going to
10:03:00 want what they want.
10:03:02 That's the bottom line.
10:03:03 They are going to tell you what they want.
10:03:05 Believe me, they are going to tell you and they are
10:03:07 going to voice it and they are going to have a lot of
10:03:09 input.
10:03:10 They are going to have a lot of input now into this
10:03:12 plan.
10:03:14 That's what's in my opinion what's great about it
10:03:17 because you have citizens, you have the residents,
10:03:19 they are involved in this vision, and developing this,
10:03:21 and then they are going to come, here is our plan, all

10:03:24 we want you to do is approve this plan pretty much is
10:03:27 what they are going to tell you.
10:03:28 Yes, go ahead.
10:03:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: About ten years ago Ruth Gibbons
10:03:33 and people from Seminole Heights came to council and
10:03:35 said we need some help with our commercial corridors.
10:03:37 That was ten years ago.
10:03:38 And they were looking at the used car lots, they said
10:03:41 we want to do something better, and we want to be able
10:03:44 to say that dollar general can't put their general
10:03:49 store in the neighborhood of our historic neighborhood
10:03:51 and that has grown from that effort starting at least
10:03:53 ten years ago.
10:03:54 I would love to hear from the public.
10:03:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: They will have to conform to what the
10:03:58 plan says.
10:03:58 They have to put the store up and make sure it fits
10:04:03 the character of that community.
10:04:04 Is that right?
10:04:06 It not that they can't do it.
10:04:08 They have to do it according to the plan.
10:04:09 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If I could just to reiterate, when

10:04:12 we are talking about being community driven.
10:04:14 When we wrote the language in the comp plan about the
10:04:16 community planning effort, it is a community-driven
10:04:19 process.
10:04:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Right.
10:04:20 >>CATHERINE COYLE: And those what these plans are.
10:04:22 We listened to the public and we make sure -- what we
10:04:25 really are are just the facilitators of the meeting,
10:04:27 the keepers of the information, we translate that
10:04:29 information into the system that we have.
10:04:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: How involved is the Planning
10:04:34 Commission at this point in the process?
10:04:36 >>> Tony Garcia is the representative who has been
10:04:40 appointed and I believe he has attended every meeting
10:04:42 and now we are in discussion was Terry Collin, Michele
10:04:45 Ogilvie and Tony on how to translate this into the
10:04:49 comp plan properly, for the August cycle.
10:04:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Good.
10:04:53 Okay.
10:04:53 Any on the questions of council?
10:04:55 If not we'll hear from the public.
10:04:57 Those wishing to address council, come forward, state

10:04:59 your name and address and you have three minutes.
10:05:04 >>> Randy Baron, 217 Comanche Avenue.
10:05:08 I have been involved in this from the very beginning
10:05:10 but before I was one of those people ten years ago
10:05:13 that councilman Saul-Sena mentioned with the overlay
10:05:16 district and that came out of the Walgreen's that was
10:05:18 going to be put on flan and Sligh.
10:05:20 We were all concerned with that.
10:05:22 The first thing I had to do was thank staff.
10:05:25 Cathy and her entire staff, they have done a marvelous
10:05:27 job engaging the neighborhood, responding to
10:05:29 neighborhood complaints.
10:05:31 Mr. Chairman, you are absolutely right.
10:05:33 What we are going to do is try to form something and
10:05:36 tell you what we want.
10:05:37 And also Cathy was right that this did engage the
10:05:43 community.
10:05:44 What you had there was a historic old building,
10:05:47 maybe -- an old building, that was basically
10:05:51 adaptively reused into something we wanted but as soon
10:05:53 as they changed the use, every single regulation
10:05:56 kicked in.

10:05:57 Stormwater.
10:05:58 Transportation.
10:05:59 FDOT.
10:06:01 It was a piling on.
10:06:03 And so this is exactly the kind of code that we need
10:06:07 to avoid that.
10:06:08 What we are looking at, and it is somewhat of a
10:06:11 reduction of looking at change of use, for use of the
10:06:15 project.
10:06:15 So you may still end up with a car lot.
10:06:18 But what I tell people, it will be the best-looking
10:06:20 car lot you have of seen.
10:06:22 It will comply with the regulations.
10:06:24 One of the critical things that we have to do though
10:06:26 now is look at those technical codes, because in
10:06:29 addition to the form, you know, the change of use if
10:06:32 it still kicks in, parking requirements, stormwater
10:06:35 requirements, green space requirement, everything
10:06:37 else, and that's the part that we are doing now, the
10:06:39 part that I'm interested in, because if you still wind
10:06:41 up with a nice form, but you have to put 1,000 cars on
10:06:47 the lot or you have to provide for green space, or

10:06:51 water retention, you are still not going to be able to
10:06:54 get that building on there or you still won't be able
10:06:56 to use the old building under the current code.
10:06:59 That's the process we are going through now.
10:07:01 I guess the next meeting, I encourage members to go to
10:07:07 those meetings, you will see we have a very well
10:07:08 informed, very active community that is getting
10:07:11 involved in this.
10:07:11 There's lots of opinions out there.
10:07:14 And we are moving forward and we are very excited that
10:07:21 this is going to help with resurgence of our
10:07:24 commercial corridors.
10:07:25 The other thing that came up at the last meeting, when
10:07:27 you finally get this thing put together you are going
10:07:29 to end up with hopefully a resurgent commercial
10:07:32 corridor, and you are going to need things like
10:07:35 pedestrian-friendly walkways, benches, lighting, these
10:07:40 are things that right-of-way now the city has made it
10:07:43 pretty enclosure we can't afford, or you can't afford.
10:07:47 Seminole Heights has put together a nonprofit
10:07:49 foundation that we are going to try to attract dollars
10:07:53 from the community to help establish some of these

10:07:56 things, the benches, the lighting, some of the things
10:08:00 that the city right now can't provide.
10:08:01 We are hoping that we can partner with the city.
10:08:04 We are hoping some kind of program can be put together
10:08:06 that maybe you can match funds that we raise to help
10:08:09 put some of these things in.
10:08:10 The whole idea behind getting this commercial corridor
10:08:13 resurgent again is getting a consistent look and
10:08:15 getting it to be pedestrian-friendly.
10:08:17 People don't want to walk along Florida Avenue when
10:08:20 you have a sidewalk this big, a fence behind it and
10:08:24 cars doing 60 miles per hour.
10:08:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's true.
10:08:27 >>> When you jump, you are in the lanes, and vice
10:08:30 versa.
10:08:31 So what we want to do and trying to do with this plan
10:08:34 is create a commercial corridor.
10:08:36 Mr. Chairman, if I may have a few more second, please.
10:08:38 We are trying to create a commercial corridor that
10:08:40 will invite people that will provide parking,
10:08:42 centralized and shared parking, that can park, they
10:08:44 can walk, and we can create a commercial corridor that

10:08:49 people can make as a destination, to drive to this
10:08:52 one, pull out and drive to that one.
10:08:54 We are very excited.
10:08:55 I hope to see some council members at some of our
10:08:57 meetings.
10:08:58 Thank you for your time.
10:09:00 >>MARY MULHERN: This is a question for you or for
10:09:03 Cathy but wasn't part of the process designing roads
10:09:10 and transit, is that part of the planning?
10:09:12 You did put that in your plan?
10:09:15 >>> Part of the comp plan and part of this plan.
10:09:18 That's a section we are on now.
10:09:19 And that's the part we are really looking closely at.
10:09:22 It's going to involve technical codes.
10:09:24 And the technical codes, this mysterious book
10:09:30 somewhere that the average citizen isn't familiar
10:09:31 with.
10:09:32 >> But we are getting a draft today, I think.
10:09:34 Didn't I see that?
10:09:35 >>> Yes.
10:09:36 >>MARY MULHERN: And one other suggestion.
10:09:39 In all of our zoning meetings, and neighborhoods, a

10:09:43 lot of times, the parking is a problem.
10:09:48 And part of it is our regulations that hopefully we
10:09:51 are going to change because it's so suburban
10:09:54 requiring, I think, too many cars and never accounting
10:09:56 for walking, biking, transit.
10:10:04 But to promote in the neighborhood where we are this
10:10:08 community planning or form-based codes is that in
10:10:11 cities, people park on the street, and we have this ad
10:10:14 attitude here in Tampa and most neighborhoods, nobody
10:10:19 can park in front of my house or I don't want parking
10:10:23 on my streets.
10:10:24 That's really just something that comes with being a
10:10:27 city and having a lot of activity and having a lot of
10:10:30 places to go.
10:10:31 So I think people need to start thinking about that,
10:10:33 okay, I do want a little corner store I can walk to or
10:10:37 pizza place in my neighborhood?
10:10:39 Yes.
10:10:40 So maybe I am going to have to put up with a couple of
10:10:43 hours of people parking on my street if I'm close to
10:10:46 where it is.
10:10:47 That way, you know, you don't have to have parking

10:10:49 lots all over.
10:10:50 So I think he would all need to start thinking about
10:10:52 that.
10:10:52 >>> It's not just the residents, it's also FDOT.
10:10:58 FDOT does not want us parking on their streets.
10:11:00 Frankly, if you look at the walkable commercial
10:11:03 corridors in this city, they all have off-street
10:11:07 parking and that's something we are really going to
10:11:08 have to work on with Florida and Nebraska Avenue.
10:11:11 If they ever let us do it.
10:11:12 It's a pipe dream.
10:11:13 Hopefully something that we can work out with the city
10:11:16 in the future to get them, maybe even during parts of
10:11:20 the day.
10:11:20 >> Give Linda about 20 more years.
10:11:26 I'm talking about the side streets, too.
10:11:28 You know, it's still over on side streets, and really
10:11:30 not a big deal.
10:11:31 >>> That has come up and people do have concerns.
10:11:34 They don't want to turn into Hyde Park which is always
10:11:37 precautionary tale of parking on side streets, and,
10:11:41 you know, there are people in the audience who dealt

10:11:42 with that for many, many years.
10:11:44 But you have to understand we do live in an urban
10:11:47 corridor, and we have to park, we do have cars.
10:11:51 Hopefully we can do shared parking, we can do parking
10:11:54 parks to get some -- when I was in Nashville, I want
10:11:58 to go to downtown, you go one block off, and there's
10:12:02 also parking lots there, municipal parking lots,
10:12:05 opportunity both for the city to make some money and
10:12:07 for people to park.
10:12:08 So hopefully there's some solutions down the road.
10:12:10 Thank you.
10:12:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Mr. Baron, while you are there, let me
10:12:13 just say to you, I know you are encouraging council to
10:12:18 come to these meetings.
10:12:20 I never went to one of these, even when I was on the
10:12:24 county commission.
10:12:24 Let me tell you why.
10:12:25 One is, more than one council person will probably
10:12:29 show up, it's not noticed.
10:12:31 >>> That's bad.
10:12:32 >> You are going to vote on this and you are
10:12:34 discussing this.

10:12:34 It's not good, sunshine, because of the issue.
10:12:37 The second is that we have a tendency to go to these
10:12:42 meetings, and sometimes interject a little too much.
10:12:45 So at the end of the day I am going to have the final
10:12:48 say so anyway.
10:12:49 So I just pretty much like to refrain, and then, you
10:12:52 know, just pick it up from here, that sort of thing.
10:12:55 You are going to be here.
10:12:57 I'm going to read the plan and I am going to vote on
10:12:59 it.
10:13:00 I'm just saying from my perspective, it's not that I
10:13:02 don't want to, but I'm just very cautious when it
10:13:05 comes to this whole usual you of the sunshine and that
10:13:08 kind of thing.
10:13:10 >>> I understand.
10:13:10 And it's a valid point.
10:13:12 Certainly we are going to be here to tell you how we
10:13:14 feel.
10:13:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Yes.
10:13:15 >>> Thank you.
10:13:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: But that's me.
10:13:17 Okay.

10:13:18 Anyone else from the public?
10:13:19 >> Steve Michelini.
10:13:30 A couple of comments.
10:13:31 And Randy Baron and I have been talking about this
10:13:34 some and I have been talking with the city zoning
10:13:36 staff as well.
10:13:38 One of the things you have to be careful of, you have
10:13:43 commercial property and interface residential
10:13:46 properties.
10:13:47 Currently the codes are not very friendly on adaptive
10:13:50 reuse.
10:13:51 So you have interfaces between commercial properties
10:13:54 and residential properties as in Cappy's when they try
10:13:59 to go in and establish a restaurant and they kick off
10:14:01 all of these technical standards that they can't meet.
10:14:04 So they are forced into the PD process.
10:14:08 These technical standards right now are preventing a
10:14:11 lot of adaptive reuse that would be very useful in
10:14:15 terms of getting the community restarted and getting
10:14:19 the commercial enterprises back up on their feet.
10:14:24 What some of these form-based zoning codes do is
10:14:27 create unfunded mandates.

10:14:29 So if you don't have parking and you don't have city
10:14:37 participation in how you resolve that problem, i.e.,
10:14:41 pocket parks, the city goes in and buys some of these
10:14:44 smaller parcels and converts them to parking so that
10:14:46 you don't have this interface problem between the
10:14:50 commercial districts and the residential properties.
10:14:53 In the evening they become pocket parks, and in the
10:14:56 daytime they become parking lots, or passive parking
10:15:00 areas for some of these commercial enterprises.
10:15:06 When you convert these plans from two dimensional
10:15:09 which they are on paper and you convert them to three
10:15:11 dimensional operations which are affecting commercial
10:15:13 properties and affecting residential properties, then
10:15:16 you have the conflict that the chair has spoken about.
10:15:21 I think everyone has tried to get a better city and
10:15:23 tried to get a better relationship between all of the
10:15:26 operations.
10:15:27 But when you have a city participating in the program,
10:15:31 when they are buying the parcels, and working with the
10:15:33 property owners, not just presenting you with a plan,
10:15:36 then you will have success.
10:15:38 And until that happens, whether you are using CDBG

10:15:42 money or using CIT money, until you start putting
10:15:45 those financial dollars behind the plan, they cannot
10:15:48 be successful, because you are asking the commercial
10:15:51 property owner to participate by buying those
10:15:54 properties and then developing it.
10:15:57 When you have a car lot that has an existing building
10:16:00 on it, form base zoning says if you do go in and want
10:16:07 to redevelop that property there's nothing you have to
10:16:09 do when you use that existing building.
10:16:11 It only if you tear that building down you have to
10:16:12 conform to a new form that's been proposed.
10:16:19 Throws lots of issues that have to be worked out.
10:16:21 Certainly I am very supportive of trying to make this
10:16:23 program work and would like to see great success in
10:16:30 this happening but the city has to be a financial
10:16:32 participant and not just a planning agent for this
10:16:34 program.
10:16:34 I would like to certainly respectfully request that
10:16:36 that be included in these programs as they move
10:16:38 forward Randy Baron spoke about creating a private
10:16:46 foundation.
10:16:46 But unless you put the money back in which no one has

10:16:49 you will have a two dimensional plan that never gets
10:16:52 to three dimensions.
10:16:53 Thank you.
10:16:56 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think we at the county commission,
10:16:58 it was a huge issue, and voted not to finance them
10:17:02 because you just don't have enough money.
10:17:04 You can't.
10:17:05 The government just don't have enough money to finance
10:17:07 all of those plans.
10:17:10 I'm just telling you.
10:17:11 I know the county faced the same issue.
10:17:15 Same issues.
10:17:16 And they took a vote.
10:17:17 And the community understood that the government did
10:17:21 not have all the money to put into that plan.
10:17:28 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
10:17:29 I just want to take a step back from one thing Mr.
10:17:33 Michelini said.
10:17:34 He said to you form based zoning dictates this.
10:17:37 I want to be clear that although that may be a theory,
10:17:42 when you develop a zoning code, especially form based
10:17:44 code or any code, you are establishing those

10:17:47 threshold, what those triggers are for what you have
10:17:50 to comply with.
10:17:51 I don't want there to be a misconception if you are
10:17:54 using an old car lot building you don't have to do
10:17:56 anything.
10:17:57 But we haven't established what those threshold are
10:17:59 yet.
10:18:00 I just want to be clear that each code will be
10:18:02 different and each trigger will be different.
10:18:07 As I said there are community driven plans.
10:18:10 If you want to take at A look at page 31 of the plan
10:18:13 that you have, we have been quite upfront with the
10:18:17 participants in this process.
10:18:19 If you look at number 3, special assessment districts
10:18:24 for public realm improvements for city's
10:18:27 rights-of-way, using item plan plat plan.
10:18:30 I asked the legal department to draft two-page
10:18:32 description of what a special assessment district is.
10:18:35 We gave that to them in the second or third meeting of
10:18:39 right up front of how to create a special assessment
10:18:42 district and we talked about the funding mechanisms
10:18:44 and how that money can be used and ultimately bonded

10:18:47 because quite frankly, we don't have a lot of money to
10:18:49 do all the pretty benches and pretty garbage cans and
10:18:53 pretty lights and the wider sidewalks right up front.
10:18:56 It is a reality.
10:18:57 We have tried to address that right up front saying
10:18:59 there are other opportunities.
10:19:00 If you look at number 4, it says floor options for
10:19:05 capital improvement grant of the improvements.
10:19:07 We are hoping internally that week start will go for
10:19:11 grants, do the capital improvement projects.
10:19:13 Also, that's why Mr. Baron mentioned the Seminole
10:19:16 Heights foundation.
10:19:17 They took it upon themselves also, or taken it upon
10:19:21 themselves to form a nonprofit to go out and seek
10:19:23 those grants.
10:19:24 What we have been trying to tell the participants is
10:19:26 that the vision plan is not just a plan those in the
10:19:29 comp plan and says this is what your committee want to
10:19:32 do, it can also be a marketing tool to attract the
10:19:35 developers and attract the money, and use this in your
10:19:38 application for grants.
10:19:39 So it is a dual effort.

10:19:40 It is a public-private partnership essentially to get
10:19:43 this work done.
10:19:49 And you will notice it in the short term priorities to
10:19:52 get the funding to make this occur.
10:19:54 You will notice at the end of the book, the typical
10:19:57 streets, cross sections, this regulation is not just
10:19:59 private property regulation, it is both public and
10:20:02 private.
10:20:03 It's provision for what we do as well.
10:20:06 We are dictating to ourselves what our standard is as
10:20:08 well.
10:20:16 We will do whatever when we can.
10:20:22 Really quick if, I could.
10:20:23 Something that Ms. Mulhern said.
10:20:26 We are trying to address that as well, and some
10:20:29 formation of the code.
10:20:30 You will notice on your connectivity map, this is the
10:20:34 basic area.
10:20:35 Florida and Nebraska are the north-south parallel
10:20:39 street.
10:20:39 275 is dead center in the neighborhood, is what cuts
10:20:43 the neighborhood in half.

10:20:44 We are trying to recreate the connection.
10:20:48 And ignore 275.
10:20:49 If you notice, Broad Street, Sligh, Hanna,
10:20:55 Hillsborough, Osborne and Chelsea are all the
10:20:58 connections underneath 275.
10:21:00 It's a ladder effect.
10:21:01 What we are trying to do is row place on those streets
10:21:08 for the off-street parking to basically supplement the
10:21:11 north-south corridors, because the majority of the
10:21:13 uses on these streets, although there are some
10:21:15 single-family uses, there's a mixture.
10:21:19 Osborne being one of the first priorities because of
10:21:22 the public uses that are along.
10:21:25 You have Hillsborough high.
10:21:27 You have memorial middle.
10:21:28 And then you have got the new library, that they
10:21:33 basically moved to the funded list to do.
10:21:35 It's an interesting project.
10:21:37 And there are already some on-street parking here but
10:21:40 to better delineate that, better serve the commercial
10:21:42 uses, and then essentially one by one they have got
10:21:45 ladder -- make that ladder connection to the

10:21:50 north-south.
10:21:51 That's the first step we are trying to move to, to
10:21:53 offer that supplement.
10:21:59 It a 20-year plan.
10:22:00 It's going to take that long to achieve a fraction of
10:22:03 what's in the plan but ultimately you have to plan for
10:22:05 the future.
10:22:06 Otherwise you lose that.
10:22:09 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to ask one question about
10:22:11 that.
10:22:15 Those east-west streets that you just circled, if we
10:22:18 just put allowed on-street parking, does that help?
10:22:24 Is parking allowed on any of those?
10:22:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: A couple of them are local streets.
10:22:30 The reason why we are focusing on them is because they
10:22:32 are not controlled by D.O.T.
10:22:34 They are controlled by the city.
10:22:40 Oh, Osborne has parking.
10:22:41 Sligh does not.
10:22:45 It the on-ramp to 275.
10:22:52 They are major arterial streets.
10:22:54 So parking on those two might be difficult bull we

10:22:57 could put the pedestrian centers needed on them.
10:23:00 There is parking along Brad and Hanna and Osborne.
10:23:04 It's scattered, though.
10:23:08 And it times of day, it's not clearly marked.
10:23:11 >>MARY MULHERN: I just wanted to mention that as an
10:23:14 inexpensive way, when you talk about us not being able
10:23:16 to fund anything, if you are just changing signs and
10:23:27 doing agent striping, you might have to move signs and
10:23:30 put in striping and I think the city could pay for
10:23:33 that.
10:23:33 The easy things like that which are the things that
10:23:35 make seem like a city.
10:23:36 You have to in some ways trying to make the city more
10:23:42 like a city than a suburb.
10:23:44 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We need to move.
10:23:45 Okay.
10:23:46 Thank you very much.
10:23:46 We are running about 25 minutes behind.
10:23:49 Our next item or next workshop, item 4, is the
10:23:55 alcoholic beverage permitting.
10:23:58 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
10:23:59 If you look at page one of the handout, of the

10:24:06 alcoholic beverage permitting workshop, it took me a
10:24:09 letter digging to figure out.
10:24:11 I couldn't remember why this was set.
10:24:13 But I did find the transcript.
10:24:15 It was in November.
10:24:16 We brought forward that minor change, the reporting
10:24:19 requirement allowing electronic filing for the "R"
10:24:21 designation basically to open it up so not everybody
10:24:25 has it mailed in or hand deliver it.
10:24:27 At that point, Ms. Vizzi had gotten up per the
10:24:30 transcript and said that they didn't disagree with the
10:24:32 change.
10:24:33 She wanted to also look to possibly creating reporting
10:24:37 requirements for all incidental uses, and she
10:24:41 mentioned beauty shops, and something else.
10:24:43 And I think it was kind of related to something that
10:24:48 Mr. Miranda said, more or less in jest, but he was
10:24:51 being serious about, how sometimes people asking for
10:24:55 the alcohol sales for things that aren't typically
10:24:58 alcohol establishments.
10:25:00 Council made the motion to set this to talk about
10:25:02 reporting requirements for other types of incidental

10:25:05 uses, and what I have given you here is just the
10:25:07 current reporting process for the "R" designation, the
10:25:14 only thing required to report right now, for the
10:25:16 semiannual reporting every January and July.
10:25:21 They file a one-page report with the planned
10:25:23 development.
10:25:25 We review it.
10:25:26 They get 30 days.
10:25:27 January 31st, July 31st they get 30 days to
10:25:31 file it.
10:25:32 We changed that about a year and a half ago, two years
10:25:34 ago.
10:25:34 It used to be a 15-day filing requirement, which a lot
10:25:38 of people missed because it was kind of a strange
10:25:41 number.
10:25:41 So we went to 30 to make it a little more even.
10:25:44 We are getting more regular reporting with the 30
10:25:47 days.
10:25:51 If they don't file within the 30 days there's an
10:25:53 administrative fee, $500 and you must file, obviously.
10:25:57 The end result of the filing requirement is that if
10:26:00 you don't file, potentially you file less than 51%

10:26:08 food, meaning that you sold more alcohol than you are
10:26:10 allowed for that reporting period, or if you file
10:26:13 consistently late, if you have got a filing problem,
10:26:17 those can be reported to City Council and then you can
10:26:20 consider them for revocation.
10:26:23 You only suspended one so far since the rule changed a
10:26:26 couple years ago, the 30 days.
10:26:28 They came into compliance, and that was the end of it.
10:26:31 You will be seeing in about a month and a half or so
10:26:34 the list for the last cycle.
10:26:37 I think there are only about 14 or so that have not
10:26:41 filed.
10:26:45 That is out of 275 essentially.
10:26:47 So it's a very small fraction that don't meet the
10:26:50 requirement.
10:26:50 I think Mr. Caetano asked about the $500
10:26:54 administrative fee.
10:26:54 It used to be a tiered fee under chapter 3.
10:26:57 It was 100, 200, then up to 500, depending on how many
10:27:02 times you were consecutively late.
10:27:05 It was difficult to administer but we did it.
10:27:08 A couple of years ago, we brought that forward.

10:27:11 We proposed a straight $500 based on.
10:27:15 There are like I said about 14 of them that are late
10:27:18 this time -- I'm sorry, that haven't filed.
10:27:21 When you start to see those lists, it's pretty much
10:27:26 same characters every single time.
10:27:28 We proposed the 500 and council adopted it.
10:27:32 It's ultimately your discretion what that number is.
10:27:34 You would also have to change the code if you don't
10:27:36 agree it's 500 any longer.
10:27:38 But that's what it is today.
10:27:42 I will say he would did change how we notify people.
10:27:48 The code has never required us to send out mailers or
10:27:54 reminders.
10:27:55 Historically the activities under business tax, it was
10:27:57 moved to us several years ago.
10:27:59 The person who would get it, it was just a matter of
10:28:03 practice, a certified letter was sent, three to five
10:28:06 dollars per letter times this many establishments,
10:28:09 there's multiple letters per cycle, there were site
10:28:14 visit made to remind people to file or pay the fee.
10:28:19 Times were good then.
10:28:20 We had more revenue.

10:28:23 We basically had to look how to cut costs.
10:28:25 Two cycles ago we sent out a letter to everybody
10:28:28 saying we are no longer going to notify you, we are
10:28:30 not required by code, we basically are no longer going
10:28:35 to notify you, you are required by code to do this,
10:28:37 here's the requirement.
10:28:38 That was the cycle where we had about 40%, if but
10:28:44 recall.
10:28:46 So what we have done is we reinstituted a postcard
10:28:49 mailer very similar to what we do for the community
10:28:51 planning, a 5.5 by 8.5 postcard, saying you are
10:28:56 required to file this time.
10:28:58 20 cents to mail it.
10:29:03 It is less than a dollar to produce and mail per
10:29:05 postcard.
10:29:06 It's a significant savings to the old process that we
10:29:08 had.
10:29:08 With this cycle, we have had the lowest rate of
10:29:13 compliance with the postcard mailer.
10:29:14 Out of the last nine cycles.
10:29:16 The postcard actually has done quite well.
10:29:19 By comparison.

10:29:20 We are actually going to continue following with the
10:29:24 postcard mailer.
10:29:25 It very inexpensive and actually produces what we need
10:29:28 to see.
10:29:35 Be the current reporting issues, the reason the motion
10:29:37 was made requiring others, incidental uses to report,
10:29:42 the first thing you need to consider is, you have
10:29:45 approximately 1800 in -- 1800 to 2,000 wet zonings
10:29:51 that are out there today.
10:29:52 If you require reporting for all incidental uses, does
10:29:55 it require previous ones to report?
10:29:57 It ultimately a question for the legal staff to
10:29:59 answer.
10:30:00 Then you have to think if it doesn't, are you just
10:30:03 doing it for new uses out there that come on line?
10:30:07 The duty it is very, very labor intensive, for about
10:30:11 four to six months out of the year.
10:30:13 We have one staff member devoted to it.
10:30:21 An urban one planner function.
10:30:25 Stamping the postcard, mailing them out.
10:30:27 We get a number of phone calls each cycle about what I
10:30:30 need to file, where do I get the form, just the

10:30:32 typical questions, which other people do tend to
10:30:35 field.
10:30:36 When this cycle comes up it is fairly labor intensive
10:30:38 for the staff.
10:30:41 I also devote several hours each cycle to review the
10:30:44 list and determine which ones will be reported to City
10:30:47 Council, and then ultimately there are no fees
10:30:53 collected, unless you don't file.
10:30:57 We spend an inordinate amount of time keeping track of
10:31:02 this requirement and it's all out of general funds.
10:31:04 If we were to move into another, or a further
10:31:08 reporting requirement regulation, we really would need
10:31:11 to consider some type of fee to cover that, if it is a
10:31:16 fee to accept your filing, if it is a fee to review
10:31:18 the filing, that's obviously a policy decision but I
10:31:25 want to mention it does take a lot of time just for
10:31:28 the 275 locations to keep track of.
10:31:30 And it's up for discussion.
10:31:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
10:31:35 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's an interesting process.
10:31:44 You don't happen to have the form that people fill
10:31:46 out?

10:31:46 >>> I don't.
10:31:47 It fairly basic, a one-pager that says fill in the
10:31:51 number here and here for food and alcohol and sign at
10:31:55 the bottom.
10:31:56 >> The quarter sales?
10:31:57 >>> Semiannual, about six-month period.
10:32:00 >> And it's notarized at the bottom?
10:32:02 >>> Yes.
10:32:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: It's an interesting process.
10:32:10 And I'm almost thinking that it's especially with
10:32:13 staff constraints and everything else, I'm almost
10:32:16 thinking it's superfluous.
10:32:19 >> We used to do it quarterly.
10:32:21 >> I'm not sure why we do it at all to be honest.
10:32:24 Because if somebody has an establishment, and they
10:32:27 know what the rules are, okay, and you are saying we
10:32:32 had one incident or something where somebody admitted
10:32:35 that they were wrong on that you are numbers or
10:32:38 something?
10:32:38 >>> There's one instance the council actually
10:32:41 suspended someone.
10:32:44 For blatant not complying.

10:32:47 >> How often do -- do we ever see a form come back
10:32:50 where somebody admits that they are off on their
10:32:53 numbers that they served more alcohol than food?
10:32:55 >>> It does happen on indication.
10:32:58 It's very rare -- on one occasion.
10:33:01 It very rare.
10:33:02 Typically we report those to you.
10:33:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, I have been here six years
10:33:06 and I can't remember them.
10:33:07 >>> It doesn't happen very often.
10:33:09 >> So we --
10:33:12 >>> Keep in mind we don't audit the books.
10:33:14 We have the ability to audit them but we don't.
10:33:16 So whatever they are reporting is what they are
10:33:18 reporting.
10:33:18 >> And that's exactly my point, is whenever they are
10:33:22 writing down and they are willing to notarize their
10:33:24 signature, then they are doing it.
10:33:25 So we are all sort of playing a game and doing a
10:33:28 little dance.
10:33:29 But I'm not really sure what we are accomplishing.
10:33:32 I mean, for example, there's rules out there that tell

10:33:38 people, we all took a driver's test 100 years ago and
10:33:41 we all learned how to drive, and now we are expected
10:33:44 to know the rules.
10:33:46 We don't come back once a year and report to Florida
10:33:52 Department of Law Enforcement and say, yes, I still
10:33:55 remember the rules.
10:33:56 You know what I'm saying?
10:33:58 So I don't know that we are accomplishing anything by
10:34:01 doing this.
10:34:05 >>> We have the "R" designation, the restrictive
10:34:10 designation that we apply for food sales.
10:34:12 The estate stated has the RX which is restaurant
10:34:17 license.
10:34:17 They regulate that as well.
10:34:19 The state regulations tell you it's 51%.
10:34:21 We actually just adopted that as well just because --
10:34:25 we are basically preempted by the rules they have.
10:34:27 If they are 51%, we have an R designation, we have
10:34:31 51%.
10:34:32 I'm not sure they still do but they did an annual
10:34:35 reporting requirement as well.
10:34:36 I'm not sure if they still do it but I believe it

10:34:39 still the rule in place that they report to the state
10:34:41 as well for the their RX license.
10:34:43 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The direction I would say is that,
10:34:48 you know, and we won't do this willy-nilly and I'm
10:34:53 sure some people watching will say, oh, my God, we
10:34:55 can't change this, it's a wonderful process.
10:34:57 I don't think we are accomplishing anything.
10:34:59 What I suggest is if we took that regulatory authority
10:35:03 and we gave it over to business, to Jake's group which
10:35:10 is frankly where I think it belongs and they
10:35:12 periodically have the authority to do spot checks.
10:35:15 Okay, they have the ability to actually get somebody's
10:35:19 books, if they had serious suspicion busy what was
10:35:22 going on in that bar/restaurant, okay, then they could
10:35:28 have somebody go in and say, now what?
10:35:30 Are you still abiding by this rule?
10:35:32 Just like they do any rule.
10:35:34 >>> That's actually in the code now.
10:35:36 There already is a process in there that if there is a
10:35:38 question we can call for an audit.
10:35:40 >> We being who?
10:35:41 You guys -- to me, I don't even think it's in the

10:35:45 right department, you know.
10:35:46 I think that you guys are front-end people, you get
10:35:50 people the permits, do a great job, what is it, growth
10:35:54 management department, that sort of thing.
10:35:57 You know, get them the permit.
10:35:59 But then from that point on, the supervision, the
10:36:02 regulation, I think should shift over --
10:36:06 >>>Ell well, they are the enforcement of it.
10:36:09 >> Why is your department doing anything?
10:36:11 Why are you sending postcards?
10:36:12 That's sort of the level of enforcement.
10:36:15 >>> That was a decision through the administration to
10:36:17 change that, to move that rule and I don't want to
10:36:21 overstep that, and I don't necessarily want to come
10:36:23 across like I am against the reporting for "R"
10:36:26 designation.
10:36:27 I'm just explaining to you the process.
10:36:30 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I know.
10:36:31 And I'm not saying you are.
10:36:32 I'm saying that I'm questioning it now.
10:36:36 Because the more I understand it, the less I think we
10:36:38 are accomplishing anything.

10:36:40 You know, it just this exercise that the business
10:36:43 community is doing, and we send a postcard, they send
10:36:46 it back, everything is fine, LA-DE-DA.
10:36:52 It's probably not everything fine out there. There
10:36:55 are probably businesses that are not in compliance.
10:36:57 We are not finding out who they are by going through
10:36:59 this exercise at all.
10:37:00 It just sort of almost a make-work exercise.
10:37:04 And I know you have got some wonderful people in the
10:37:07 back of the room who send out postcards and do this
10:37:10 and you follow up, that could be doing a lot of other
10:37:13 more valuable things in our city.
10:37:16 So I'll hear wherever people are going on this.
10:37:19 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to make clear, so the
10:37:22 state does do the exact same thing, or you are not
10:37:27 sure if they do?
10:37:29 >>> The last I knew that they did it, they had an
10:37:31 annual reporting requirement with the state.
10:37:33 I'm not sure if that rule is still in effect.
10:37:35 I can research.
10:37:36 >> We are doing annual?
10:37:37 >>> We are doing semiannual.

10:37:39 We used to do quarterly a few years ago and it was
10:37:42 changed to semiannual.
10:37:43 >> Well, I think you should follow up and legal should
10:37:46 find out if they are doing that, because if they are,
10:37:49 and to what extent if they are actually auditing or if
10:37:54 they are just accepting the report like we are doing.
10:37:57 But I agree with councilman Dingfelder.
10:38:00 If we are not even vesting what the point is.
10:38:02 But I also -- I have labeled and addressed and stamped
10:38:11 275 envelopes in a pretty short period, all of us
10:38:14 have.
10:38:14 It doesn't seem that burdensome.
10:38:16 But it certainly isn't something we should have
10:38:23 someone doing if there's not really any advantage to
10:38:25 it.
10:38:26 But if we are going to continue doing it, I wouldn't
10:38:31 see any reason -- we are doing it because they have to
10:38:35 have 51% food, right?
10:38:38 >>> Correct.
10:38:38 >> So the incidental use doesn't really fall into that
10:38:41 same category.
10:38:43 >>> It's only those that have the "R" designation.

10:38:47 >> You would have to say they are more nail polish
10:38:52 than they are --
10:38:53 >>> They are selling more of something else than
10:38:55 alcohol.
10:38:55 >> I don't know, it doesn't seem like that's something
10:38:59 that codifies.
10:39:00 >>> It's not.
10:39:01 That was the discussion that was raised by the public
10:39:03 comment, was should we be doing this for on the uses?
10:39:08 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, is it hard for you to track if
10:39:10 you have to go back and see how many uses that are
10:39:14 incidental alcohol sales?
10:39:17 >>> On the than those that are straight bars, that you
10:39:20 knew you approved virtually, the vast majority of them
10:39:23 were approved in the ordinance that was meant for
10:39:25 sale.
10:39:26 In order to get that --
10:39:28 >>MARY MULHERN: Right, right.
10:39:29 You call it incidental?
10:39:30 >>> Yes.
10:39:32 >>MARY MULHERN: Because it's to go.
10:39:33 >>> That's the first thing to do is better define

10:39:36 incidental and then what the process for reporting
10:39:40 would be after that and for whom this would apply.
10:39:42 >> My other question, there's only 275 restaurants?
10:39:53 >>> About 275 "R" designations.
10:39:56 There are a lot of restaurants that don't take an "R."
10:39:58 >>MARY MULHERN: Thanks.
10:40:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, I guess I'll steal the floor.
10:40:17 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Talking about that this shouldn't
10:40:19 be in the land department, Mr. Slater's department,
10:40:21 the tax collector or whatever you want to call him,
10:40:25 his department.
10:40:25 I don't know why land development is in that game.
10:40:28 I don't understand why is land development there,
10:40:34 about the licenses?
10:40:36 Shouldn't that be in another department?
10:40:39 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We don't issue the licenses.
10:40:41 The licenses are issued by the state.
10:40:44 >> But follow up on them.
10:40:46 >>> We basically collect the reporting requirements
10:40:49 for the "R" designations that we track.
10:40:51 Yes.
10:40:54 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: My question that I asked earlier,

10:40:56 this $500 administrative fee, how long has that been
10:40:59 $500?
10:41:00 >>> Been $500 for a couple of years.
10:41:03 I can't remember the exact date.
10:41:05 You had stepped out but ultimately the $500, the value
10:41:09 that the amount of that is ultimately up to the
10:41:12 council.
10:41:12 A couple years ago we brought it forward.
10:41:14 It was a tiered system before.
10:41:16 And it was a totally different code and a different --
10:41:19 kind of a different way to do it.
10:41:20 We brought forward $500 and it ultimately up to you
10:41:24 what that fee should be that's in the code.
10:41:28 So if you wanted to change to a thousand or if you
10:41:31 wanted to change to 300.
10:41:32 >> I don't want to change it.
10:41:33 I think it a little high.
10:41:35 What's involved when somebody sends in a report that
10:41:38 there's a $500 administrative fee?
10:41:40 How much work is involved to correct the situation?
10:41:43 >>> I'll give you the first run.
10:41:46 The first run is mailing out the postcards to everyone

10:41:49 to let them know it your reporting period time.
10:41:52 The form is available at this web site.
10:41:54 You can come in the office.
10:41:55 We can mail it to you.
10:41:57 Whatever you need, here it is.
10:41:58 We'll fax it to you.
10:42:00 We give them about five different ways to contact us
10:42:03 to get the form.
10:42:04 They file about 30 days after the cut-off period which
10:42:07 is January 31st.
10:42:09 Because it's December 31st the cut-off period is.
10:42:12 If they file by January 31st there is no
10:42:15 administrative fee, they filed on time.
10:42:17 Okay.
10:42:17 If, however, they file by January 31st, and they
10:42:20 show zero food sales, 100 percent alcohol, they are
10:42:25 out of compliance.
10:42:25 So we would then send out that administrative --
10:42:29 administrative fee requirement, and they are out of
10:42:33 compliance and we report that to you for being out of
10:42:37 compliance with their "R" designation. If they don't
10:42:40 file at all by January 31 we send set a fee and remind

10:42:45 them you have to pay this, you have to file.
10:42:46 So basically we take the initial 275 list, we get by
10:42:51 January 31st all the filings, we check off the
10:42:55 file, we check off the information, we generate a
10:42:59 second list that says these people are out of
10:43:02 compliance, we generate those letters of the
10:43:04 administrative fee requirement, and we send this back
10:43:07 out saying, you 20 or so are the ones that are out of
10:43:11 compliance, now you owe the fee and you must file.
10:43:13 We give them another 30 days to file.
10:43:16 So it would be March 2nd the is typically the date
10:43:18 that they have to file for that particular cycle.
10:43:21 If they don't, that third generation of the list is
10:43:24 the one that we ultimately report to you.
10:43:27 What happens in that second tier, a lot of the people
10:43:31 that file it correctly will correct the information or
10:43:33 file.
10:43:34 And then the list is stripped.
10:43:37 Very few at the end.
10:43:39 Usually 5% of the entire amount that wind up in front
10:43:41 of you.
10:43:42 So it's a three-step process, and it's basically

10:43:46 stripping off that list down to the end.
10:43:47 It does take hours to do it.
10:43:51 It is time consuming.
10:43:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Are we using the Internet for
10:43:56 stuff like this instead of sending out a postcard
10:44:00 whatever you are spending three to five dollars on?
10:44:02 >>> That was the old amount we used to pay: I had
10:44:05 mentioned that under the old process, the policy
10:44:09 procedure that we had, even though it wasn't in the
10:44:11 code, was to mail a certified letter, and that's what
10:44:14 was so expensive.
10:44:16 We actually changed to the postcard because quite
10:44:20 frankly it's very inexpensive, about 50 cents to print
10:44:23 and mail those.
10:44:24 So we cut the cost of that drastically.
10:44:26 And actually this postcard mailer, the first cycle we
10:44:29 have done it, we had the lowest rate of noncompliance
10:44:31 over the last nine cycles.
10:44:33 So the postcard is actually proving to be better than
10:44:35 the certified mail letters.
10:44:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, council members.
10:44:44 Let me go back and regress on how this came, where we

10:44:47 are at today.
10:44:49 There is, before 1974, and after 1974.
10:44:58 The old law was 60-40 which was much more restrictive.
10:45:02 You had to sell 60% food, 40% alcohol.
10:45:07 In that period of time council members at that time
10:45:09 realized that the cost of things were different, cost
10:45:13 of business was different, and they changed it to
10:45:16 51-49.
10:45:18 That was done between '74 and '79.
10:45:21 However, during that time, there was an audit that was
10:45:27 performed, a spot check audit on the businesses that
10:45:31 had the "R."
10:45:32 They would go and actually ask for the paperwork.
10:45:36 They would get the purchases of food from the vendor.
10:45:39 They will get the alcohol purchase from the vendors,
10:45:42 the sales, and they would actually do the mathematics,
10:45:45 to find out if somebody was fidgeting on the truth or
10:45:49 not.
10:45:50 That's a good work word for calling them liars or not
10:45:55 liars.
10:45:56 What has happened through the years, we have
10:45:59 liberalized these things, and ourselves, in my case, I

10:46:04 didn't ever support it.
10:46:06 We have created more bars by saying that if you have
10:46:09 an "R," you can stay open to the state statute limit
10:46:13 of 3:00 in the morning.
10:46:16 Very few people -- I'm not saying that all -- but very
10:46:21 few people go out to have a dinner at 2:30 in the
10:46:24 morning.
10:46:25 So what I am saying, we changed that and had put this
10:46:28 extra burden not on them but on ourselves.
10:46:31 We have liberalized, I believe, the enforcement of
10:46:35 audits, and at the same time raised the limit because
10:46:38 everything was different.
10:46:40 It depends where you have that establishment.
10:46:43 Is it near a residence?
10:46:45 Is it near a school?
10:46:46 Is it near things that congregate young people?
10:46:49 Is it near churches?
10:46:50 Is it near a lot of things?
10:46:51 That's why it was the opinion of those at that time
10:46:56 that depending where it was, you had closing hours at
10:47:00 10:00, 11:00, 12:00.
10:47:02 Now, the way I remember it, you can stay open till

10:47:05 3:00 in the morning, everyone though sometimes we try
10:47:07 to barter.
10:47:09 And I think even when we barter we are making a
10:47:13 mistake because we said you can stay open till three
10:47:15 but we pick and choose who we want.
10:47:17 So we can't have it both ways.
10:47:20 So that's why where we are at.
10:47:23 From what I understand from what you said -- and maybe
10:47:25 I misinterpreted -- there is very little audit done on
10:47:31 an establishment.
10:47:33 It's "I tell what you it is and you accept it or
10:47:36 reject it."
10:47:38 That's fine on the surface, but I think we ought to
10:47:40 have one in ten picked out, one in five picked out and
10:47:43 go do an audit.
10:47:45 It was done before.
10:47:46 I can tell you who used to dot.
10:47:48 I can tell you how it was done.
10:47:50 But I am not going to waste council's time on that.
10:47:52 But if you need to find out, come see us.
10:47:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10:48:02 Yeah, I think we have hit on something like we are all

10:48:04 trying to cut costs for the city, and I think we are
10:48:07 trying to cut aggravation for the business community.
10:48:16 Actually, it appeared that there was somebody in the
10:48:18 public who wanted to speak to this so I will hold my
10:48:20 motion until afterwards.
10:48:21 You can come back to me afterwards.
10:48:23 I would like to make a motion on this.
10:48:28 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other questions by council?
10:48:29 Public comment.
10:48:30 >>STEVE MICHELINI: First of all, there are audits that
10:48:34 are conducted by the state.
10:48:36 There are two separate audit conducted.
10:48:38 One is done by the Department of Revenue, and each
10:48:41 establishment is required to file a report every month
10:48:46 and they are checking to make sure that taxes are paid
10:48:50 on the sale of alcohol and they work very closely with
10:48:53 the department of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, and
10:49:02 they also audit the books of all of the "R"
10:49:06 designations because the license they sell is called
10:49:10 an SRX license, and they are the ones that have the
10:49:13 enforcement powers, they have police powers over every
10:49:16 establishment that sells alcohol, tobacco, or

10:49:20 firearms.
10:49:22 And they really don't want them to come in and audit
10:49:25 you, but they do.
10:49:26 They have spot checks all the time.
10:49:28 They send enforcement officers to different
10:49:30 establishments.
10:49:31 They send an officer to every establishment that buys
10:49:34 a new license within 30 days.
10:49:39 If we come in and get a rezoning from you, a wet
10:49:42 zoning, alcoholic beverage license from the S-2
10:49:47 process, and then go to the state to sign off on the
10:49:53 alcoholic papers, we also go to the department revenue
10:49:55 and the health department, restaurant division to get
10:50:01 their sign off, once that happens and you open up for
10:50:04 sales within 30 days they send an inspector to check
10:50:06 that the premises is correct, to make sure they are
10:50:09 set up as a restaurant, if they are claiming to be a
10:50:11 restaurant, and they measure the square footages and
10:50:14 layouts and a variety of other things.
10:50:20 Whether the city does an audit or not, the state does
10:50:22 one and they have very strong police powers that they
10:50:25 can shut you down, not within 30 days, they can shut

10:50:28 you down immediately.
10:50:35 The second thing is going back to councilman Caetano's
10:50:38 inquiry about the fee, it's been around about a year
10:50:44 and a half, two years as Cathy said but there's been
10:50:47 no provision for council to waive or reduce that fee
10:50:50 so when council comes to you with a hardship story and
10:50:53 you truly want to help them they are bound by that
10:50:56 $500 and you have no authority to waive that.
10:51:00 If council wished you might want to ask that power be
10:51:02 restored to the council to either waive or reduce that
10:51:05 fee.
10:51:06 The second item which really wasn't discussed this
10:51:08 morning and it important of -- more of a question than
10:51:14 anything else, with the fees and the processes
10:51:18 currently set up for sidewalk cafes -- and I know
10:51:21 Cathy said she was going to be addressing this in the
10:51:23 August cycle, for sidewalk cafes, the filing fee, and
10:51:31 you typically have seats in a sidewalk, you have the
10:51:35 500 plus the survey plus the site plans and a variety
10:51:38 of other things.
10:51:39 It's just far too expensive to even begin to process.
10:51:43 We have got new establishments that lake to take

10:51:45 advantage of sidewalk cafes and simply can't do it.
10:51:51 I would like to request the council consider some
10:51:54 interim measurement sidewalk cafes, if they already
10:52:00 have an alcohol, to have expansion of their services
10:52:02 while we are in this process.
10:52:04 Right now these restaurants need every tool they can
10:52:06 tap.
10:52:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, sir.
10:52:08 Next speaker.
10:52:19 >>> I wasn't going to say anything.
10:52:21 My name is Sue Lyon.
10:52:23 The "R" designation is kind of a -- I'm not saying
10:52:30 sacred like religious, but if you open a restaurant as
10:52:35 opposed to the bar, the neighbors do not come out in
10:52:38 droves and object.
10:52:41 It's kind of something that if you are going to open a
10:52:44 business and it's going to be a restaurant and it's
10:52:46 going to be a part of the neighborhood and the
10:52:54 neighbors are not going to object, there needs to be
10:52:56 some kind of protection.
10:52:58 I am not going into how the city runs their business.
10:53:01 But if you all give them an "R" designation you need

10:53:03 to know that it will stay an "R" designation, it won't
10:53:08 turn into a bar.
10:53:09 How you do it is a different thing.
10:53:10 But don't rule off an ordinance.
10:53:15 Cathy works really hard.
10:53:16 But in order to save her time, don't eliminate the "R"
10:53:28 designation.
10:53:30 I'm not saying that you will change it to a bar.
10:53:32 But sometimes it's -- if you go out to eat and you can
10:53:35 get stake sandwich for $10 and glass of wine is $8,
10:53:42 they are going to start selling more and more wine.
10:53:44 It's just a practical thing.
10:53:49 Those how they make the money is on the alcohol.
10:53:51 So if I can talk you into two glasses of wine, I've
10:53:54 made money.
10:53:57 So it's a simple economic thing.
10:54:00 And the neighbors want to protect their neighborhood,
10:54:04 and happy to have restaurants in the neighborhood,
10:54:07 unless they get overgrown like Howard Avenue.
10:54:09 And when you talk about parking and making this a
10:54:14 city.
10:54:16 This has been a city for a long time.

10:54:19 We have been running it the way we want to run it, and
10:54:21 people drive to where they go.
10:54:24 So please don't start saying, oh, we are a big city,
10:54:29 we don't have to have parking spaces.
10:54:31 People in Tampa drive.
10:54:33 So that's my only comment.
10:54:35 Thank you very much.
10:54:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:54:38 Next speaker.
10:54:40 >>> My name is Walter Crumbley.
10:54:42 I live in Tampa.
10:54:51 I agree with Mr. Miranda, if you are not going to
10:54:54 audit you are wasting your time getting a stupid
10:54:56 report.
10:54:56 I have fairly good reason to believe that within my
10:54:58 own neighborhood that alcohol is the big seller and
10:55:03 food is certainly incidental.
10:55:05 And I would think if you are going to have the --
10:55:09 require these reports, you also have 5 or 10% of the
10:55:14 people that are audited every single year to make sure
10:55:17 that they comply.
10:55:19 That being said, let me take a point to digress on my

10:55:26 three minutes and thank you for your parking ordinance
10:55:29 in the Courier City neighborhood.
10:55:32 Let me tell you, it's only phase one but it's the
10:55:35 greatest thing you ever did for that neighborhood.
10:55:39 Believe me.
10:55:40 You can get down the street.
10:55:44 Emergency vehicles can get down the street.
10:55:46 Already in less than a month you have people now that
10:55:50 will come out on Friday and Saturday evening and leave
10:55:55 their yards and discuss things and not have to push
10:55:58 the drunks out of the way.
10:56:00 And when you come home in the evening, you know that
10:56:02 you have a place to park, and you can get in and out
10:56:05 of your driveway without having to get the bumper jack
10:56:10 out.
10:56:10 So on behalf of the residents, I certainly want to
10:56:12 thank you.
10:56:15 Not withstanding what some people said during the
10:56:17 development of this, I have not had a single complaint
10:56:21 from a single resident since phase one went in.
10:56:26 Everybody loves it.
10:56:29 The city tells me they are going to phase two shortly,

10:56:33 which will take in an additional area.
10:56:36 It was just like Jim Corbett said, the cockroaches
10:56:40 just went a little further away.
10:56:42 So in the two streets that they are now going to
10:56:45 implement next month, we should see a dramatic
10:56:48 increase and change there as well.
10:56:51 So thank you very much.
10:56:53 If you have any questions I will be happy to answer
10:56:54 them.
10:56:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Walter.
10:56:59 In these chambers compliments are few and far between.
10:57:02 We appreciate that.
10:57:02 >>> I'm usually down here complaining.
10:57:05 >> We appreciate those comments.
10:57:07 We appreciate your involvement in that parking effort
10:57:10 as well because it's you and your cohorts in your
10:57:15 neighborhood who encouraged us to do it.
10:57:17 So compliments go both ways.
10:57:19 Thank you.
10:57:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: My question is about what we are
10:57:23 discussing, the alcohol zoning.
10:57:28 Obviously, if there isn't compliance, then what is the

10:57:32 point of having the rule?
10:57:33 But are you saying that you support continuing to have
10:57:36 the "R" designation if there is the audit that is
10:57:39 recommended by Mr. Miranda?
10:57:45 >>> I have no problems with that. You know, starting
10:57:49 to look at this thing practically, somebody comes --
10:57:50 and this is my experience in the past -- and they park
10:57:54 in front of your house, "I'm just going to the
10:57:59 restaurant to get a bite to eat," and they come back
10:58:01 five hours later.
10:58:02 I don't think so, you know.
10:58:10 So you have to wonder what's going on down there.
10:58:12 Nobody can eat that much.
10:58:15 You get a place that starts out as a nice little
10:58:18 Italian restaurant.
10:58:20 Neighborhood loves it.
10:58:21 Within three months, it's now the Soho bar and grill.
10:58:27 And you have got to wonder what's going on inside
10:58:30 those doors.
10:58:32 Are they really reporting what they claim to be
10:58:34 reporting?
10:58:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you. Thank you, sir, very

10:58:43 much.
10:58:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do we have the power to -- my
10:58:45 question is, do we have the police power to go in, see
10:58:49 what's really going on, and then if they are not doing
10:58:51 what they are supposed to be doing, close them down?
10:59:00 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
10:59:01 Your code does provide the city with the authority to
10:59:05 call an audit.
10:59:06 One thing that is important to understand is that
10:59:09 anyone who has an "R" from the city is going to have
10:59:12 an SRX or restaurant designation from the state.
10:59:16 You can't get an R designation, a land use permit, and
10:59:19 get something more expensive from the state.
10:59:21 So both through our code and also working with the
10:59:25 state, we can -- clearly has police power for problem
10:59:31 locations.
10:59:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Rebecca, I got agent confuse wad
10:59:41 the state is actually auditing.
10:59:43 I'm confident they are going to audit how much liquor
10:59:46 somebody is selling compared to the taxes they are
10:59:48 paying for that liquor, et cetera, et cetera, but are
10:59:51 they really checking the ratio of food to liquor?

10:59:54 >>REBECCA KERT: We would have to contact the state.
10:59:58 Probably a year ago, or year or two ago it was our
11:00:01 understanding they were doing some sort of compliance
11:00:03 check on an annual basis.
11:00:05 However, times have changed and I am not sure if they
11:00:08 are actively doing any enforcement at all or if they
11:00:11 are doing enforcement and using their powers to do
11:00:14 audit when there's a problem location.
11:00:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
11:00:18 Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion.
11:00:19 Like I said earlier, change, you know, change is
11:00:23 difficult.
11:00:23 We don't want to shock the system too much.
11:00:27 But right now, we are not talking about removing or
11:00:30 keeping the "R" designation.
11:00:32 The "R" designation will stay in place.
11:00:36 We'll continue to use the "R" designation as a
11:00:38 valuable tool in our wet zoning permits or whatever we
11:00:42 call them these days.
11:00:43 But the bottom line, so that's not what we are talking
11:00:45 about, keeping or not using the "R" designation.
11:00:48 What we are talking about is this reporting

11:00:50 requirement.
11:00:50 Right now throws a reporting requirement that twice a
11:00:53 year, you know, twice a year we send out the reminder
11:00:57 postcard and twice a year they have to send in the
11:00:59 form.
11:01:00 What I am going to suggest, so we don't appear too
11:01:03 radical, is why don't we go to once a year?
11:01:05 Okay.
11:01:07 And I don't know if that's a function of code.
11:01:10 Is that in our code?
11:01:11 Okay.
11:01:12 Then the motion would be direct staff and legal to
11:01:15 work together to come back as soon as possible time,
11:01:21 not the January cycle?
11:01:25 That's a silly rule.
11:01:28 At the next possible cycle to amend that to be once a
11:01:32 year instead of twice a year.
11:01:38 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Do we have the power to change
11:01:40 that $500 fee administratively fee?
11:01:47 Do we have the power to change that?
11:01:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We can add that to the rule.
11:01:51 I think that's a good idea.

11:01:52 Mr. Michelini made a good suggestion that leave the
11:01:56 $500 in place but give ourselves the ability to waive
11:01:59 that under certain circumstances, hardship criteria
11:02:05 that you can put in the code.
11:02:07 We have another one that talks about when somebody
11:02:10 comes in and they give a good explanation as to why
11:02:12 they shouldn't be fined or whatever, and they can come
11:02:15 to us.
11:02:15 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If I may.
11:02:20 Land development for the record.
11:02:23 Fees if someone changes an application there's an
11:02:25 amendment fee.
11:02:26 Council does have the ability under the code to waive
11:02:28 that fee.
11:02:30 It's typically administrative error.
11:02:32 That's the thing.
11:02:33 When you have these reporting requirements, if someone
11:02:36 is just filing late, they just don't file, so it's
11:02:40 actually pure noncompliance.
11:02:42 The issues that are the hardships that we hear is my
11:02:44 accountant didn't do the work, or my wife was sick or
11:02:47 died, we had one recently that had a death and they

11:02:50 couldn't file.
11:02:51 I truly understood that.
11:02:52 >> Waive it?
11:02:57 >>> In a, I don't have the ability.
11:02:59 Extenuating circumstances.
11:03:00 >> Put some hardship criteria in there, just say
11:03:04 hardship criteria and let council deal with it.
11:03:07 >>> Those that don't pay will be reported to you so
11:03:10 you have that ability.
11:03:11 >> I accept that as a friendly amendment.
11:03:12 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Cathy, let's say a gentleman does
11:03:18 $20,000 in liquor, and he does 21,000 which would put
11:03:22 him in the 51% in food, okay?
11:03:25 Do we have a right to check his sales tax?
11:03:28 Because on food there is a sales tax.
11:03:30 >>> The code generically states that we can call for
11:03:34 an audit.
11:03:35 The zoning administrator can call for an audit if
11:03:37 there is some reason to do it.
11:03:40 So basically it's kind of like what has been
11:03:42 discussed.
11:03:43 It's more or less a complaint driven issue.

11:03:45 If there is an establishment that is appearing to turn
11:03:48 in to some kind of purely alcohol establishment, we
11:03:51 can call for that audit and they can be done.
11:03:53 But if you are reporting 51% food, on its face there
11:03:58 would be really no requirement.
11:03:59 There would be know reason to call for the audit.
11:04:03 >>
11:04:05 We have actually not performed one in God knows how
11:04:08 long.
11:04:10 If it been since '74.
11:04:13 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: So we have the right to get their
11:04:14 information on their sales tax.
11:04:16 That would tell us if they sold $20,000 worth of food
11:04:20 at 7%, we would know what their sales tax would be, or
11:04:23 should have been.
11:04:24 >> Let me just read you what the code actually says.
11:04:31 Property owner and holders of the beverage license
11:04:34 shall copy and maintain separate books on the premises
11:04:37 for which the alcoholic beverages are made, provide
11:04:40 certified copy of the books and records to Land
11:04:41 Development Coordination division within ten days of
11:04:44 the request to see the document.

11:04:46 So if we send out the formal request, get them in
11:04:49 within ten days.
11:04:50 The books and records shall accurately identify each
11:04:54 daily sale of food and each daily sell of alcohol,
11:04:58 pre-numbered slips, cash register tapes and so on can
11:05:01 be accepted, the books and records shall reflect the
11:05:03 gross sale of food and gross sale of alcohol for each
11:05:06 semiannual period of each calendar years an the books
11:05:09 and records shall reflect that the combined gross
11:05:11 sales of the businesses are not less than 50%
11:05:14 attributable to the sale of food for any period.
11:05:17 I wanted to step back also and explain to you that
11:05:19 those that get reported to you, that don't pay the
11:05:23 fine or don't file on a semiannual basis, those are
11:05:28 the ones you can consider for suspension or
11:05:30 revocation.
11:05:30 The code actually says those can specifically come to
11:05:33 you but we can actually report any of them to you that
11:05:36 are in violation of any one of these provisions.
11:05:38 Let's say we called for an audit, they intend to file,
11:05:41 they don't file with us and we call for the audit, we
11:05:43 can report them to you and you can look at the gravity

11:05:46 of the situation and suspend them.
11:05:48 Any violation of this entire regulation we can bring
11:05:50 to you to have suspended.
11:05:52 Any procedure or any regulation within the code.
11:05:56 So that's basically the requirement for the audit.
11:05:58 >> The audit would consist of, show us your sales tax?
11:06:02 >>> Show us everything.
11:06:03 Your sales receipts, everything.
11:06:05 Your entire books.
11:06:06 They actually have to be kept separate as a separate
11:06:09 document so they can show us every daily sale and
11:06:12 throughout the entire period.
11:06:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern and councilman
11:06:19 Miranda.
11:06:19 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilman Dingfelder, you are just
11:06:23 asking to keep the same process other than that
11:06:25 amendment?
11:06:27 But do it once a year?
11:06:30 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do it once a year instead of twice
11:06:32 a year and we'll have a hardship criteria to be able
11:06:34 to waive the $500 penalty under whatever criteria.
11:06:39 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Waive it or reduce it?

11:06:42 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Right.
11:06:43 Waive it or reduce it.
11:06:46 >>MARY MULHERN: So is it decided we don't want to look
11:06:48 into what the state is doing, that this is a
11:06:50 duplication we don't want to do?
11:06:52 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I am still going to look into that
11:06:54 just so we have the information.
11:06:57 >>MARY MULHERN: Maybe you can let us know before we
11:06:58 change this policy whether we need to keep doing this.
11:07:01 And then the other question I had was, it was brought
11:07:03 up that maybe it should be done through -- if we are
11:07:06 going to keep this policy it should be done through
11:07:11 business.
11:07:12 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If I could, on that issue the code
11:07:17 says it comes through the zoning administrator to make
11:07:19 that decision on what actually occurs.
11:07:21 Because it's what these permits are is a land use
11:07:23 permit.
11:07:24 What we are ultimately deciding is whether or not I
11:07:26 should bring forward something that is in violation of
11:07:28 the land use permit that they have, which is the
11:07:30 special use permit.

11:07:31 I want to stay behind the scenes.
11:07:33 Joe Papy is the business supervisor.
11:07:37 He shares a very, very close relationship with our
11:07:39 office.
11:07:40 He is our field inspector that goes out and posts
11:07:43 these locations, we are in daily contact with him,
11:07:46 it's very well coordinated internally.
11:07:50 It actually functions very well.
11:07:52 It just time consuming.
11:07:53 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm just wondering if we should have a
11:07:56 report on that before we adopt a new ordinance that we
11:08:03 might not need to adopt to find out what the state is
11:08:06 doing.
11:08:06 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You can do that in the interim.
11:08:13 Because of our cycles, our zoning cycles.
11:08:19 Ask for a report in sixty days.
11:08:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Miranda.
11:08:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:08:26 It sounds difficult to find out what your sales are,
11:08:29 food, alcohol, so forth.
11:08:31 Every successful restaurateur and everyone -- can even
11:08:37 tell you more than that, keep a daily head count, how

11:08:41 many people come in, you compare year to year, month
11:08:44 to month, week to week.
11:08:47 You compare your food sales to all that.
11:08:49 You compare your Sal sales to all that.
11:08:52 If not you are going to close real, real soon.
11:08:54 So it not something that is being a burden to someone.
11:09:00 When you apply for that license you know what the
11:09:02 regulations are, when you sign, that you are going to
11:09:06 abide by that.
11:09:07 I will not support, because -- and I am going to tell
11:09:10 you why.
11:09:10 We don't know.
11:09:11 We want to reduce the costs, but we don't know what
11:09:15 the costs are to the city.
11:09:16 So it will reduce the cost to zero, the general
11:09:20 taxpayers are going to pay for somebody else's
11:09:22 license.
11:09:26 Somebody has to do the work.
11:09:28 Somebody has to pay.
11:09:29 So somebody is going to get less service and being
11:09:33 paying into the pot.
11:09:34 So being a tightwad, I don't want my money to go

11:09:39 somewhere else so they have to get possibly something
11:09:44 that they don't need.
11:09:45 And if we are not doing a good job twice a year, can
11:09:49 you imagine what we are going to do once a year?
11:09:56 It will be relaxing of the rules, more liberalism, no
11:10:00 one is going to know if we have a problem in six
11:10:02 months, now you have to wait a year, unless there's a
11:10:05 police raid or some other cause that's happening there
11:10:08 that it's against the law to do.
11:10:10 And I'm not saying that's happening.
11:10:15 I wish I could say that.
11:10:16 I don't know what the cost is.
11:10:17 You all know the cost.
11:10:18 The administration knows the costs.
11:10:20 Am I against sidewalk cafes? Absolutely not.
11:10:23 What do you think we are going, a thousand sidewalk
11:10:25 cafes in Tampa?
11:10:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Like three.
11:10:33 >> Do you think we are going to have that?
11:10:36 I know how the system works.
11:10:38 You start with an inch, you take a yard.
11:10:40 And like I said, I didn't support opening these

11:10:45 restaurants till three in the morning.
11:10:47 I thought that was wrong.
11:10:48 But, you know, that's history.
11:10:52 But now it leads to another thing and another thing,
11:10:54 and another thing.
11:10:57 And I'm not against anything that comes to this
11:10:59 council, providing for whatever act is on one side of
11:11:03 the fence, there's going to be reaction on the other
11:11:06 side.
11:11:07 Somebody has to take care of that cost.
11:11:10 And it not going to be me.
11:11:13 So what I'm saying is, I understand the hardships.
11:11:16 But I also understand that somebody has got to pay for
11:11:19 those costs.
11:11:22 Some other department is going to have to come in and
11:11:25 Chip in.
11:11:25 Some other individuals are going to have to work to
11:11:28 make sure that what they got, they got.
11:11:31 So why not use their own money to make sure what they
11:11:34 got, they got, is the right way.
11:11:37 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:11:42 >> There's a motion on the floor.

11:11:44 Moved and seconded.
11:11:46 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
11:11:48 Opposes?
11:11:52 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Nay.
11:11:53 >>THOMAS SCOTT: But at the same time we are asking --
11:11:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Can you announce what the vote is?
11:12:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Only one Nay.
11:12:03 What do you have to announce?
11:12:05 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Miranda voting no.
11:12:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The other issue is looking at what the
11:12:13 state is doing.
11:12:15 Do you want to make the motion?
11:12:17 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to make a motion that we
11:12:19 have a report to detail how the state audits these.
11:12:27 >>> Just a written report, outline of what the
11:12:29 requirement is?
11:12:30 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes, you can give us the outline.
11:12:32 But if you can also bring to us what the difference is
11:12:35 between what we are doing.
11:12:36 And also what Mr. Miranda brought up, and were you
11:12:41 talking about the costs of what this department is
11:12:44 doing in tracking all of it?

11:12:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Right.
11:12:48 >>MARY MULHERN: Maybe we could hear what the cost to
11:12:50 you is of doing this.
11:12:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Twice a year versus once a year.
11:12:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Which is a valid point.
11:12:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We are going to cut ourselves in
11:13:00 half no matter what it is, so we'll see.
11:13:03 >>MARY MULHERN: May 7th, that's probably too soon.
11:13:06 How about May 21st?
11:13:13 >> Second.
11:13:14 >> Third.
11:13:16 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It's been moved and seconded that we
11:13:18 have a report back May 21st.
11:13:21 On the state audit procedures.
11:13:24 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
11:13:26 Opposes?
11:13:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
11:13:31 I mentioned at the beginning that I would be
11:13:33 discussing the May 21st workshop for the May cycle
11:13:37 of the code amendments.
11:13:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Motion, council?
11:13:40 >> So moved.

11:13:41 >> Second.
11:13:42 >>THOMAS SCOTT: It's moved and seconded.
11:13:46 >>MARY MULHERN: May 28th workshop.
11:13:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: At 9 a.m. after the commendation of
11:13:52 police officer.
11:13:53 You have a budget workshop to review the property tax
11:13:57 proposal.
11:13:58 10:45. They are requesting that be moved to the
11:14:00 presentation regarding the one-day regional visioning
11:14:04 initiative.
11:14:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I was going to bring it up this
11:14:07 morning but we don't nobody because also on the date
11:14:09 you also have a budget workshop.
11:14:11 That's the issue.
11:14:14 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Whatever council's pleasure is.
11:14:25 >>MARY MULHERN: 11:00.
11:14:26 >> Second.
11:14:26 (Motion carried)
11:14:28 We have one more workshop for the day.
11:14:30 Then we move to new business.
11:14:39 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: Historic preservation, design
11:14:42 manager, here on item number 5.

11:14:47 Jake Slater with code enforcement and business tax
11:14:51 division, and Kevin Abrahams with the same division.
11:14:55 And we are going to try to address some of the points
11:14:58 that were brought out through council member
11:15:03 Saul-Sena's memo of March 4.
11:15:05 Would you like for me to go through those point by
11:15:07 point?
11:15:08 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes, thank you.
11:15:10 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: The first item listed for further
11:15:15 information was statement that said that the historic
11:15:18 property is under -- if it under a citation for code
11:15:21 violations and the petitions for rezoning that the
11:15:26 code enforcement process freezes.
11:15:30 The filing of rezoning petition does not automatically
11:15:32 stay a code enforcement activity.
11:15:34 Other provisions within the codes do have the ability
11:15:37 to stay a code enforcement activity.
11:15:40 Within different sections of chapter 27, specifically
11:15:46 dealing with the Ybor City historic district, and the
11:15:48 architecture review commission, applications for
11:15:51 certificates of appropriateness, may have the effect
11:15:55 of staying a code violation.

11:15:57 If those specific applications are intended to remedy
11:16:03 the code violation.
11:16:04 Also certain variance applications may stay at a code
11:16:09 violation as well.
11:16:10 However, there should be understood that an
11:16:13 application may not stay a proceeding if the
11:16:16 appropriate department certifies that in their opinion
11:16:19 a stay would cause imminent peril to life or property
11:16:23 of that said property.
11:16:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can I ask a question on that?
11:16:28 >> Yes.
11:16:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: For example, water under the
11:16:30 bridge, but the Gary school was under citation, as I
11:16:34 understand, but then that was stayed when they filed
11:16:36 for the rezoning.
11:16:37 So I'm asking is that the rule now?
11:16:42 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: The violations in that particular
11:16:44 situation, they were not stayed as they were going
11:16:48 through the rezoning process.
11:16:51 The stay occurred when they actually filed for
11:16:53 demolition.
11:16:54 They were actually under code enforcement procedures

11:16:58 at the time, and part of the procedures then escalated
11:17:01 when there was the collapse of the west wall.
11:17:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: In other words, let's say the old
11:17:11 Maas Brothers building downtown.
11:17:13 They had code enforcement issues.
11:17:15 When they were asking for -- if they were to have
11:17:19 asked for a rezoning, they would still have to
11:17:22 theoretically -- the code enforcement process would
11:17:26 move ahead?
11:17:27 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: That's correct.
11:17:28 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay, good.
11:17:29 I wasn't sure.
11:17:35 So a property owner has to meet the code enforcement
11:17:40 rules even if they are moving ahead with the rezoning
11:17:43 request?
11:17:44 >>> The defect to the building that resulted in the
11:17:47 code enforcement action, that's really what the issue
11:17:50 of the proceedings are about.
11:17:51 So the rezoning wouldn't necessarily have an effect on
11:17:53 them at all.
11:17:57 Where it becomes pertinent is where it goes before the
11:17:59 architecture review commission or the Barrio Latino

11:18:02 commission, and that owner is actually making an
11:18:04 application that is intended to correct those
11:18:08 deficiencies.
11:18:09 And, unfortunately, one of the possibilities for an
11:18:14 owner, if they have, say, for instance, some very
11:18:17 severe deficiencies in the building would be to apply
11:18:20 for a demolition of that structure, and that
11:18:23 demolition application would stay the enforcement
11:18:27 proceedings until they had their hearing.
11:18:29 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: How do we change that?
11:18:32 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: That's specified within chapter
11:18:34 27.
11:18:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So we can make that as a change to
11:18:38 our code?
11:18:39 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: If that's the desire of the
11:18:41 council.
11:18:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Because it seems to me keeping up
11:18:45 your building is just say, well, what the heck, I'll
11:18:48 just apply for demolition permit, rather than making
11:18:52 the improvement in the building.
11:18:54 >>> There is that caveat that if it determined the
11:19:01 department most likely there's a historic preservation

11:19:04 division in that particular case, that the stay would
11:19:06 then exacerbate the condition and lead to a demolition
11:19:10 by just non-neglect --
11:19:17 >> Non-neglect is an oxymoron.
11:19:19 >>> Neglect.
11:19:20 >> What would we have to do to change that?
11:19:22 >>REBECCA KERT: We can put in the our next round of
11:19:28 chapter 27 changes.
11:19:28 If I can get some clarification, if that's the rule of
11:19:31 council.
11:19:31 You actually have three different provisions in your
11:19:35 ARC and BLC code.
11:19:36 For variances, if a variance is sought, code
11:19:39 enforcement is stayed, only the section from which you
11:19:43 are seeking a variance.
11:19:44 That is if you have a setback issue and you are coming
11:19:47 in, that's one issue.
11:19:49 For certain of appropriateness generally in the ARC,
11:19:52 if you come in for a certificate of appropriateness
11:19:54 for anything, all code enforcement proceedings are
11:20:00 stayed and the same happens with certificate of
11:20:04 appropriateness to demolish.

11:20:06 I just need some clarification.
11:20:08 What change you are asking for.
11:20:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to suggest this is
11:20:13 going to require a lot more discussion because this is
11:20:15 pretty complex.
11:20:16 I had kind of hoped that you all would come today with
11:20:18 something but you haven't.
11:20:20 So perhaps the best thing to do would be to not
11:20:25 attempt to address this here but to have a special
11:20:27 discussion meeting in the future because we are not
11:20:29 going to be able to get into the current code of
11:20:32 discussions anyway.
11:20:35 So I make a list of things that we can look at in more
11:20:38 detail in the future.
11:20:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Caetano, you had a
11:20:44 question?
11:20:45 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: For instance, this Gary school,
11:20:53 they wanted to rezone and it going to cost a half
11:20:56 million dollars to fix the damage that's been
11:20:59 identified by code, the rezoning could not take place?
11:21:05 >>> The rezoning could go forward.
11:21:07 However, that would not stay the code enforcement

11:21:10 proceedings applied to the building.
11:21:12 What could potentially say the code enforcement
11:21:16 proceedings is they came in for a certificate of
11:21:18 appropriateness to then correct the defect of the
11:21:21 building.
11:21:22 That would have the potential to stay the proceedings.
11:21:25 If the intent was that they are coming in for review
11:21:28 and approval to then correct the deficiencies that
11:21:31 were the cause of the code violation, then that would
11:21:33 stay.
11:21:35 So they would have.
11:21:37 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: They would have to fix that
11:21:39 before they get the rezoning?
11:21:40 >>> The rezoning can happen concurrently with the
11:21:42 process -- the process.
11:21:44 They have the ability to come in and apply for
11:21:46 rezoning separately from the code enforcement
11:21:48 proceedings.
11:21:49 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: What if they chose for a
11:21:51 demolition permit?
11:21:52 What would happen to that code enforcement violation?
11:21:57 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: It would be stayed until the point

11:21:59 where the relevant architecture review commission
11:22:02 would hold a hearing to determine if they met the
11:22:04 criteria within the code for demolition.
11:22:09 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Thank you.
11:22:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Finished?
11:22:13 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: That was the first bullet.
11:22:16 Moving onto the second bullet.
11:22:19 There was a request for information related to the
11:22:22 legal authorization to access inside commercial
11:22:25 properties which are suspected of violations.
11:22:28 And I am going to turn that over to the legal
11:22:30 department for that particular point.
11:22:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Legal?
11:22:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would hope as our chairman said
11:22:40 in the future, when we ask for things, if they could
11:22:42 be written and we could receive them in advance.
11:22:58 >> With regard to the legal authorization to gain
11:23:02 access into property, just as a general rule, in order
11:23:10 to inspect, we would have to have consent, an
11:23:16 inspection warrant, basically that's a consent for an
11:23:21 inspection warrant, and there are procedures in state
11:23:23 law to obtain inspection warrant, and my understanding

11:23:26 is that there's been conversations with the courts
11:23:29 about setting up an inspection warrant system, so that
11:23:32 we know what judges to go to.
11:23:35 >> I understand that other Florida communities do
11:23:41 this.
11:23:41 Jacksonville, Miami.
11:23:42 We haven't done it.
11:23:43 But I would like to do is ask if you could move ahead
11:23:46 and work toward that, because my conversations with
11:23:49 Mr. Slater, it really been a problem for his
11:23:52 inspectors if they can't get in buildings.
11:23:58 Talking about commercial property.
11:23:59 I don't know what -- if this is a counsel gesture or
11:24:05 administrative gesture but I want to make sure that
11:24:08 our inspectors have that ability.
11:24:10 I don't know if it's a question of it being there
11:24:12 already and we just never exercised it, or if you need
11:24:16 a specific ordinance from council to get you there.
11:24:24 >>> We have a state law for buildings that are not
11:24:26 being operated -- which I think is pretty much what we
11:24:30 are talking about here, vacant buildings.
11:24:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.

11:24:33 >>> So we have the ability to get that from a judge
11:24:35 now.
11:24:36 Actually what Mr. Mueller mentioned, we are actually
11:24:38 seeing more formalized process, it will be faster but
11:24:41 we have the authority to go do that now, if we have
11:24:44 one, we need to go get one for it.
11:24:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Good. What I think what we are
11:24:53 going to do is get reports back in 60 days, are we
11:24:57 making progress in actually implementing these things.
11:25:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Number 3.
11:25:04 Bullet number 3.
11:25:04 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: Historic preservation manager.
11:25:07 Bullet number 3 dealt with need to clarify which
11:25:11 department is responsible as the lead agency for
11:25:13 historic preservation.
11:25:14 In matters related to specifically historic
11:25:16 preservation, the historic preservation and urban
11:25:19 development division is the lead agency.
11:25:22 We do have a code enforcement officer that is staffed
11:25:26 with us, and they do handle the enforcement related to
11:25:29 the certificate of appropriateness processes that
11:25:33 result in the architectural review process, and also

11:25:36 the newly adopted demolition by neglect ordinance.
11:25:38 We are the lead agency within that.
11:25:41 In areas where we are out into the respected district
11:25:47 or the landmark sites, if we do observe some type of
11:25:52 deficiency in a building that does not quite equate to
11:25:55 a demolition by neglect but nevertheless needs some
11:25:58 type of remedy, we do coordinate our activity.
11:26:02 Code enforcement has done a very good job, very
11:26:04 cooperative effort between our two departments, and
11:26:07 they have assigned a historic preservation liaison in
11:26:11 Kevin Amos, and we will normally contact him and let
11:26:14 him know the deficiencies and they will put that
11:26:16 particular property under violation, if necessary,
11:26:19 through their process.
11:26:29 We currently do conduct a monthly exterior inspection
11:26:33 of all designated structures that we know of that are
11:26:36 vacant or had a history of code violations so we are
11:26:39 continuously updating our records, and keeping an eye
11:26:43 on the process to make sure that we are moving forward
11:26:45 with the to remedy those situations.
11:26:48 That concludes my information on bullet number 3.
11:26:52 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have another question on the

11:26:53 next-to-last bullet point about how the public can
11:26:57 check on what's going on.
11:26:58 There are -- I'm constantly calling Mr. Slater with
11:27:03 buildings that have open windows and things falling
11:27:08 off the roof and ferns growing out of the wall, and
11:27:12 it's not -- if you could share with us what the best
11:27:15 way is for individuals, the public to check on the
11:27:19 status, and when we are going to see remedies in some
11:27:22 of these structures.
11:27:23 I think I gave you a list about a year ago, and
11:27:26 honestly some of the structures still have the ferns
11:27:29 growing out of the walls, and the open windows.
11:27:31 And some have been improved, I'm happy to say.
11:27:34 But how do we know what's happening with them and when
11:27:39 they are going to bring themselves up to our code
11:27:41 regulations?
11:27:44 >>> Jake Slater, director of code enforcement
11:27:47 division, tax division.
11:27:49 With regards to bullet number 4, code enforcement
11:27:53 posts all code board hearings, and they have hearing
11:27:57 masters agenda hearings, and all dispositions on our
11:28:00 web page, our public inspection.

11:28:04 The meetings of the code board and the hearing masters
11:28:06 are also publicly noticed and also open to the public.
11:28:10 Additionally, the overall disposition are actually
11:28:13 televised on CTTV.
11:28:19 I think that helps out a lot.
11:28:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's very helpful.
11:28:23 Thank you.
11:28:26 >>> And we do have a web site.
11:28:33 Http://WWW.TampaGOV.net/dept_code_enforcement.
11:28:51 >> Thank you.
11:28:51 >> Number five.
11:28:52 >> I have something for council members.
11:28:57 These are brochures that I brought back from
11:28:59 Tallahassee about the financial impact of historic
11:29:03 preservation which is very, very significant.
11:29:06 And I wanted -- I was up in Tallahassee on Monday and
11:29:09 Tuesday.
11:29:11 And one of the reasons that you all don't see a lot of
11:29:15 preservationists here today it's the day when you are
11:29:17 supposed to go up and lobby your legislators.
11:29:20 I was track tracking money.
11:29:21 Three years ago historic preservation got $17 million

11:29:25 statewide for historic property and the City of Tampa
11:29:30 benefited significantly.
11:29:32 Last year we got zero.
11:29:33 This year we are begging for $100,000.
11:29:36 Things look very grim in Tallahassee in terms of money
11:29:38 that can go to our buildings here in Tampa to fix them
11:29:42 up.
11:29:42 The good news, on the other hand, is that there's
11:29:46 economic stimulus money that's available for
11:29:50 weatherization.
11:29:52 Now, one of the things that our older buildings need
11:29:56 is windows fixed, the doors fixed, the roofs fixed,
11:30:00 and I'm trying to work through our community's
11:30:03 representative up in Tallahassee to see if some of
11:30:05 this weatherization money can go to historic
11:30:07 structures in our community for their roofs and doors
11:30:10 and windows.
11:30:11 And I would love to have the staff help me on this,
11:30:14 because it's better if it's coming from the
11:30:20 administration and not just an individual council
11:30:23 member.
11:30:24 What these brochures point out is the tremendous

11:30:26 economic development potential of preservation, how
11:30:28 the money we invest in our older structures gives such
11:30:34 a reward in terms of cultural tourism, value in the
11:30:36 community, keeping our heritage intact, and I
11:30:43 appreciate how closely the two departments have been
11:30:46 working together in the last year to accomplish the
11:30:51 stabilization of our historic resources.
11:30:53 And I only encourage you to work together increasingly
11:30:58 closely in the future.
11:30:59 Lastly, I would like a report back in sixty days on
11:31:02 how we are coming with the inspection access, but the
11:31:08 legal department.
11:31:09 So that can be a live report under staff reports.
11:31:17 In May.
11:31:21 >> Second.
11:31:23 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern.
11:31:24 >>MARY MULHERN: Take the vote.
11:31:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
11:31:27 (Motion carried)
11:31:29 Okay.
11:31:29 >>MARY MULHERN: I just wanted to say to Linda and to
11:31:33 Dennis that I was reading that there's been an

11:31:37 increase in the federal budget for both the NEA,
11:31:44 national endowment for the arts.
11:31:45 I think the NEH, too.
11:31:48 So that's another source.
11:31:50 I mean, that would be great if you could combine money
11:31:53 for weatherization.
11:31:54 I think some of that money is earmarked for low income
11:32:00 housing, Linda.
11:32:01 So you are going to have to look at that.
11:32:02 But there also might be money in the arts and
11:32:06 humanities for the -- what we need is for somebody who
11:32:12 has time to do the investigation.
11:32:17 We all have great ideas for the stimulus money but I
11:32:20 don't know how digging into it, figuring out how we
11:32:22 can ask for it.
11:32:27 >>DENNIS FERNANDEZ: Also monitoring the information
11:32:29 coming out, and at the AI heritage committee, there
11:32:38 was starting to be more information coming out, and we
11:32:41 do have areas within some of our historic districts
11:32:43 that would qualify, income qualified, to some of the
11:32:46 dollars as well.
11:32:47 So we are definitely --

11:32:49 >>MARY MULHERN: There's also -- I think throws
11:32:51 categories for urban development or something.
11:32:59 I don't know.
11:32:59 I think we all have that list, right?
11:33:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Like reinvestment.
11:33:04 >>MARY MULHERN: Right, something.
11:33:06 So if you go through the list and look at everything
11:33:08 that might be a possibility for historic preservation,
11:33:10 I think it's very deserving since we are not going to
11:33:14 get any money from anybody else.
11:33:20 I'm finished.
11:33:21 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: One quick question for legal.
11:33:26 Do we currently hold people in terms of finding people
11:33:30 for code enforcement violations? Do we keep them in
11:33:33 violation until they cure the problem?
11:33:35 >>ERNEST MUELLER: Yes.
11:33:45 The violations remain active until it been brought
11:33:48 into compliance and call the inspector out, and the
11:33:50 inspector will confirm compliance and complaints and
11:33:53 inspection report.
11:33:56 Ernest Mueller, assistant city attorney.
11:34:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I just want us to be careful in

11:34:03 protecting our historic resources, and the ferns
11:34:06 growing out of the brick really give me heartburn and
11:34:09 the open windows.
11:34:10 We have two months before the rains come.
11:34:12 I see Brad Baird right there.
11:34:15 I know he's eager for to the start as quickly as
11:34:18 possible but wove to get these windows fixed and I'm
11:34:20 thinking of a number of historic structures that we
11:34:22 all know about where I believe that the owners have
11:34:25 intentions of improving them.
11:34:27 Currently they are set sitting there with broken
11:34:29 windows and open windows and open holes in the roof.
11:34:32 And we just can't afford for these structures to be
11:34:38 neglected and be vulnerable in this way, if not from
11:34:41 the elements from people who get in there and set them
11:34:51 on fire.
11:34:52 This last year we lost two historic structures to
11:34:54 street people setting one on fire and then the sparks
11:34:57 from that setting the other one on fire.
11:34:59 We can't afford to lose that.
11:35:01 We don't have that many good old buildings that are
11:35:04 worth protecting.

11:35:05 So it's really up to our staff to be vigilant.
11:35:08 So please work as quickly as you can to give them the
11:35:11 tools they need to inspect the buildings and then of
11:35:15 course the carrot to that is we need to make the
11:35:19 financial resources that we have allocated from our
11:35:23 facade improvement program, our downtown CRA dollars,
11:35:28 TIF money that can go to low cost loans available to
11:35:30 property owners so that they can borrow the money and
11:35:33 fix their buildings up.
11:35:34 >>ERNEST MUELLER: I want to be remind you, too, what
11:35:38 will be come through in the next couple of weeks is
11:35:40 the amendments to the civil citation ordinance that is
11:35:42 going to allow for enforcement of the demolition by
11:35:45 neglect.
11:35:49 >> How quickly?
11:35:50 >> Within the next month.
11:35:51 I think it will be coming to you for first reading
11:35:53 certainly within two or three weeks.
11:35:56 >>MARY MULHERN: I just thought of something I want to
11:35:58 say for Linda to hear.
11:36:00 You should be mailing -- you should go on the code
11:36:03 enforcement web site and mail these to all the owners

11:36:07 of those buildings.
11:36:09 With a letter.
11:36:09 Somebody should.
11:36:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I have copies.
11:36:15 >>> A copy of the manual.
11:36:23 >> Any other questions?
11:36:24 Okay.
11:36:24 Does someone want to make a motion?
11:36:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We already did.
11:36:28 To get a report back.
11:36:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
11:36:32 No other questions?
11:36:33 Then that will conclude our workshop for the day.
11:36:35 Let's move now to new business.
11:36:37 Councilman Miranda?
11:36:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:36:40 I see the man in charge of the operation of the city
11:36:44 water, Mr. Brad Baird, and the supply of that and
11:36:51 distribution and manufacturing of that, and we would
11:36:53 like to have him say a few words here today to bring
11:36:56 us up to date as to where we are at on the present
11:36:59 day.

11:36:59 >>BRAD BAIRD: Tampa water department.
11:37:07 The Tampa Bay area is in a severe drought, in case no
11:37:13 one has noticed, and it's severely affecting the
11:37:17 Hillsborough River.
11:37:18 And Tampa is unique in that it's the only local
11:37:22 government that draws from the Hillsborough River.
11:37:27 And when demand is greater than supply, we have to
11:37:31 take out of the Hillsborough River reservoir to make
11:37:34 up that difference.
11:37:35 And I checked flows in Hillsborough River this
11:37:40 morning.
11:37:40 We have 22 million gallons a day coming down the
11:37:43 river.
11:37:44 And that is a record low for March 26th.
11:37:48 So I wish I had better news for you than that but I
11:37:51 don't.
11:37:55 If the reservoir drops below 15 feet, we are currently
11:37:59 at 20 feet, we will not be able to provide water to
11:38:04 parts of our service area.
11:38:06 So that is why Tampa must enact watering -- strict
11:38:15 watering restrictions and that's why we are unique.
11:38:19 At that point, it may affect fire protection, public

11:38:23 health.
11:38:24 So I thank you for giving me the chance to get our
11:38:28 message across of how serious this is and how serious
11:38:32 it is in particular to Tampa.
11:38:34 Thanks.
11:38:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Brad, I want to thank you for your
11:38:40 efforts to continue to get -- you see, we need
11:38:43 partnership, hand in hand, we need volunteerism, we
11:38:48 need to do it for man kind, we need contribution of
11:38:52 lifeline, we need heart to heart so that these
11:38:54 individuals that own companies that have water trucks,
11:38:58 the city is willing, as I have been told, to give the
11:39:02 reclaimed water, certain locations, fill up the truck
11:39:06 for free, and the city is working on a composition of
11:39:11 addresses an so forth in certain quadrants of the
11:39:14 city, throughout the city, so that they can receive
11:39:17 reclaimed water.
11:39:18 However, that being said, this is not an opportunity
11:39:23 for somebody, not that they will, to gouge those
11:39:26 people.
11:39:27 This is an opportunity for them to show that they want
11:39:32 to be part of this city.

11:39:33 And there's nothing wrong with making a profit.
11:39:35 Don't get me wrong.
11:39:36 But what I like to see these individuals -- and I have
11:39:40 heard some that says, we don't want to do it, there's
11:39:42 not enough money in it.
11:39:46 And I am not going to forget those individuals.
11:39:49 That's how I am.
11:39:51 But it something that the whole crisis is, is not only
11:39:59 an issue of getting water, the river, from the
11:40:02 reservoir gets lower than 15 feet, 15 or less, we are
11:40:05 in trouble.
11:40:06 What we are trying to do to prevent that is to get
11:40:08 these individuals and have that make a profit, deliver
11:40:12 the water, the city is going to take a reduction in
11:40:15 moneys, because he's not going to have the water to
11:40:18 distribute because it's going to be done by reclaimed
11:40:22 trucks, hopefully.
11:40:29 There will be a reduction in cost.
11:40:30 The city will take less income from those that are
11:40:32 going to have two metered, one for watering, Juan one
11:40:36 for lawns, one for drinking.
11:40:38 That way we'll take the reduction in water costs to

11:40:41 the city and a reduction of sewer charges to the city.
11:40:43 So we are going to take a double hit.
11:40:45 But that's the way a government should always hand out
11:40:48 and reach out to those that need it.
11:40:51 At the same time, like Lee Iacocca said, either lead,
11:40:58 to follow or get out of the way and I don't think Brad
11:41:02 Baird does any of those very well.
11:41:03 He's a leered.
11:41:04 I'm pleading with those individuals that have these
11:41:07 trucks and companies that are idle because of low work
11:41:10 in certain areas, to make an effort to get with the
11:41:13 water department, to work out so that we can have
11:41:17 these ten weeks that are coming up that are very, very
11:41:19 critical, because these are the weeks where our water,
11:41:25 utility records indicate that on Tuesdays and Sundays,
11:41:28 we use 15 million gallons a day, or 30 million gallons
11:41:35 a week.
11:41:36 And if you multiply that times 10, you have an
11:41:39 enormous problem, because now you are at 300 million,
11:41:42 and by that time, the city's reservoir is going to be
11:41:47 at 600 million, or so gallons.
11:41:50 It will be lower than that because you take half of it

11:41:52 out.
11:41:53 So that's what I'm saying
11:42:01 I'm asking.
11:42:01 I'm pleading.
11:42:02 Please get that job done for those who have those
11:42:04 water vehicles that can be used and make a profit.
11:42:07 Thank you.
11:42:08 I have one more.
11:42:12 Mr. Chairman, in this meeting, I would like to ask for
11:42:18 a commendation to an individual who has been with the
11:42:20 city for 31 years.
11:42:23 This individual has represented the city, and he's
11:42:28 been the city budget officer for 31 years.
11:42:31 He knows how to squeeze copper out of a penny.
11:42:35 And he's done a fantastic job, in my opinion, I'm sure
11:42:39 you all concur, and after 31 years of service, he will
11:42:45 be leaving the City of Tampa.
11:42:50 And that individual deserves a commendation from this
11:42:53 council for what he's done not only in the budget, but
11:42:55 in different things that he's done throughout the
11:42:58 community, and the different functions that he's done,
11:43:01 in helping out.

11:43:03 And I would like for us to asking this council to
11:43:08 allow us the opportunity to give a commendation to Jim
11:43:12 Stefan, who is retiring, and that commendation will be
11:43:17 presented on April 2nd.
11:43:20 >> Second.
11:43:21 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved by councilman Miranda, seconded
11:43:23 by councilman Dingfelder.
11:43:24 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
11:43:27 Opposes?
11:43:27 Okay.
11:43:29 Anything else?
11:43:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, sir, thank you very much.
11:43:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Dingfelder.
11:43:34 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:43:35 Just one thing as a quick reminder to council and
11:43:38 especially the community, that this Saturday and
11:43:40 Sunday will be festa Italiana in Ybor City, and it's a
11:43:48 great event.
11:43:49 All the proceeds go to the Italian club over there in
11:43:55 Ybor.
11:43:55 And so if you are curious about it, you can look it up
11:44:00 on line.

11:44:01 It's festaItalianatampa.com or call my office for more
11:44:07 information.
11:44:08 But it's a fun event.
11:44:10 They have dozens and dozens of restaurants out thereof
11:44:13 with tents to serve great food and lots of fun.
11:44:19 I'll be playing bacce on Saturday with a team.
11:44:25 We did pretty well last year, came in second. Anyway,
11:44:28 I'm not Italian but I want to be.
11:44:32 And I have I am handed one other thing by my aide very
11:44:36 quickly.
11:44:37 Humane Society of Tampa Bay this Saturday, also, from
11:44:40 9 a.m. till 1 p.m., are giving free shots for dogs and
11:44:45 cats, Saturday, March 28th, river tower park.
11:44:50 Everybody knows where the river tower park is right
11:44:52 off the interstate at the corner of Florida and
11:44:55 3rd, west of I-275, from 9 to 1, pet licenses will
11:45:00 also be available.
11:45:01 So if your dogs or cats needs their shots and you are
11:45:05 having a tough time economically, Humane Society is
11:45:09 giving out free shots for dogs and cats.
11:45:11 This Saturday, 9:00 to 1:00 at the river tower park.
11:45:15 Thank you.

11:45:16 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to give a commendation to
11:45:20 Dr. Walter L. Smith in recognition of being selected
11:45:22 as the 2009 Applegate-Dorros Peace and International
11:45:24 Understanding Award by the National Education
11:45:27 Association.
11:45:29 And I will get back with him and give you the date to
11:45:32 come and accept it.
11:45:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That motion made by Councilwoman
11:45:35 Miller, seconded by Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
11:45:38 All in favor signify by saying Aye.
11:45:40 Opposes?
11:45:41 Councilwoman Saul-Sena.
11:45:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:45:45 I sent a memo to the members of council saying that if
11:45:49 at this meeting I was going to raise the issue of
11:45:51 requesting an attorney general opinion on the
11:45:53 requirement that HCC, the -- the regulations so I
11:46:02 would like council to seek an attorney general
11:46:09 opinion.
11:46:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me speak to that.
11:46:11 If I recall, the state attorney's recommendation under
11:46:21 item 4, 6.01-3, bullet point 5 down, it says that when

11:46:30 two government agencies, that's when they render an
11:46:33 opinion, if one agency is in conflict with another
11:46:36 agency, that both of those agencies must come together
11:46:40 and ask for the opinion.
11:46:42 It cannot be one or the other.
11:46:44 And I would like the legal department to maybe set me
11:46:46 straight if I'm off course here somewhere.
11:46:49 But I remember reading that sometime back, and it
11:46:54 specifically calls that item 4 -- 16, I believe,
11:47:03 believe, point 01 (3) in parenthesis, bullet number 5,
11:47:07 it states there that in that case, when you have two
11:47:12 agencies that are governmental, that both of them must
11:47:15 ask for an opinion simultaneously.
11:47:17 Am I correct, Mr. Fletcher?
11:47:19 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Yes, that's correct.
11:47:24 And typically, they have followed that process, and
11:47:29 actually in my experience they have always followed
11:47:31 that process, and so it is unlikely if HCC were not to
11:47:37 at least in some way participate that we would
11:47:39 actually get an opinion back from the attorney
11:47:42 general's office.
11:47:42 When we first started this dialogue, they were open to

11:47:45 that approach.
11:47:47 And since we have continued down this process, they
11:47:50 have retracted their willingness to participate.
11:47:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, let me just do this.
11:47:57 I think to annal way to resolve is it going to do
11:48:01 that.
11:48:01 I am going to second the motion that we ask for an
11:48:05 attorney general opinion.
11:48:08 I believe the only way it's going to resolve is if it
11:48:10 happens now.
11:48:11 We may not go forth.
11:48:13 I don't know.
11:48:14 But at least we put it on the table from my
11:48:16 perspective.
11:48:17 It is my understanding that they are at least from
11:48:20 talking to their attorney, they are going to approach
11:48:23 HCC tonight and suggest they join the city in asking
11:48:26 for this opinion.
11:48:26 Whether they do that or not I don't know.
11:48:29 But I am going to second the motion.
11:48:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Questions on the motion?
11:48:34 Ms. Saul-Sena?

11:48:36 >> You are absolutely right on that.
11:48:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We were cautioned by Mr. Fletcher
11:48:40 that we might not get the answer we want, but that's
11:48:42 true in so many legal issues.
11:48:44 If we don't ask, then we don't receive the
11:48:47 clarification.
11:48:48 I don't know if you all know this but I spent a lot of
11:48:51 time walking through Ybor City.
11:48:53 I love it.
11:48:53 And I just feel so strongly that if we don't do
11:48:56 everything in our power to protect it, we are not
11:49:01 responsible to our constituents.
11:49:03 And I think that this request is consistent with doing
11:49:10 everything in our power as City Council to support the
11:49:13 ordinance which we adopted which is the Barrio Latino
11:49:15 ordinance and I appreciate your second, Mr. Chairman.
11:49:18 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion.
11:49:21 Mr. Dingfelder?
11:49:22 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I just want to make sure we all
11:49:24 know what we are doing, and where we are going.
11:49:27 Somebody, I don't even know where this came from,
11:49:29 provided me with a draft from your office, Mr.

11:49:35 Fletcher, dated two weeks ago, the 16th, 2009, a
11:49:40 draft for legal opinion, with an attached memorandum
11:49:42 of law.
11:49:43 You are familiar with that?
11:49:46 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I am.
11:49:47 The date is probably not accurate.
11:49:48 It probably an auto date function on there.
11:49:50 I think that was drafted back in January, or when we
11:49:54 first started this discussion.
11:49:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So at some point your office
11:50:00 drafted a request for this opinion that council --
11:50:05 throws a motion and a second to request you to do
11:50:07 that.
11:50:08 In the interim, we got a memo from you back a week ago
11:50:11 that said -- I don't have it in front of me but it
11:50:15 basically said you had some concerns and qualms about
11:50:18 complying with council's request.
11:50:21 So I just want to make sure before we ask you that you
11:50:25 will comply with council's motion.
11:50:27 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Well, we have really three layers
11:50:31 of this discussion.
11:50:32 One is the mayor has been pretty clear that she does

11:50:38 not support this request.
11:50:41 She believes that the appropriate course of action is
11:50:42 to go forward with this negotiation on an interlocal
11:50:47 agreement that we have been discussing.
11:50:49 That's the way we resolved these issues with the
11:50:51 school board.
11:50:52 And so we would have a conflict in the charter between
11:50:55 the council's authority and the mayor's authority.
11:50:59 Our office's view is on things like this that are
11:51:02 really a legal determination that our office actually
11:51:05 has the final decision whether or not to go forward,
11:51:11 both Jerry Gewirtz in my office, these been a fairly
11:51:17 consistent position.
11:51:18 So you all --
11:51:25 >>GWEN MILLER: Let him finish.
11:51:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I am going to hear everything he
11:51:29 has oh to say.
11:51:30 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: If we can walk through the charter
11:51:32 provisions that get top that if you would like to but
11:51:34 we can look at a couple different ways of how to
11:51:38 address it.
11:51:38 But really, if the mayor and council were on the same

11:51:46 page I would potentially reach a different conclusion.
11:51:49 But we read this the same way we read litigation or on
11:51:57 the types of legal actions so we read that within the
11:51:59 scope of the city attorney's office within the
11:52:01 charter.
11:52:05 So if we want to go forward on this -- and I'm sure
11:52:10 you want to go forward on this -- in my judgment
11:52:12 that's not the best way to protect the interests that
11:52:17 council wants to protect.
11:52:18 That's my concern here.
11:52:21 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Then why was this draft done either
11:52:27 recently or two months ago, it's a draft request to
11:52:31 the attorney general for exactly what Ms. Saul-Sena
11:52:35 and Mr. Chairman --
11:52:38 >>> Because --
11:52:38 >> Let me finish.
11:52:39 I let you finish.
11:52:41 Why was that done, number one?
11:52:43 And throws a memorandum of law that seems to support
11:52:44 it as well.
11:52:45 And why would that have changed?
11:52:48 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Because I did not think that HCC

11:52:50 would be willing to give us as much as they appear to
11:52:53 be willing to give us in our interlocal agreement.
11:52:56 >> But are you making a policy decision?
11:52:59 >>> That's the mayor's position on that.
11:53:02 And that's where we have ended up in terms of this
11:53:07 process.
11:53:13 But, yes --
11:53:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think what we need to do,
11:53:19 Mr. Chairman and Mrs. Saul-Sena, in addition to making
11:53:22 that motion, I think if you tag onto the other motion,
11:53:25 and if you can't, or won't come back to us in the next
11:53:28 week and tell us in writing as an opinion, a written
11:53:32 legal opinion from the city attorney's office why you
11:53:34 can't or won't.
11:53:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I accept that as a friendly
11:53:38 amendment.
11:53:38 And I would like to point out that my interpretation
11:53:42 of the charter, and council's responsibility, is that
11:53:46 the mayor is charged with the administration but
11:53:49 council is charged with land use and zoning decisions.
11:53:55 This is squarely a zoning issue.
11:53:57 So therefore it's in our purview, and therefore we

11:54:00 have the ability to protect our zoning responsibility.
11:54:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Scott.
11:54:09 >> Thank you for that because I was going to say that
11:54:11 so I won't be redundant.
11:54:13 I think we need to be clear.
11:54:16 We have a very strict charter, and I believe in the
11:54:20 separation of power and what the charter outlines for
11:54:26 the administration, for the legislative branch.
11:54:28 So we have to be very careful that you are not being
11:54:36 dictated or being told to do something that clearly is
11:54:39 in our purview or our area.
11:54:41 That's number one.
11:54:42 Number two is regardless of the outcome, personally, I
11:54:46 agree, I think we may not like the opinion that comes
11:54:51 back.
11:54:51 However, you do know that there are those who want
11:54:54 this opinion, regardless, okay?
11:54:56 And so I am going to support the motion.
11:54:58 But regardless, I think that's the only way to resolve
11:55:01 this issue, okay?
11:55:02 Now, we do know there's history there.
11:55:04 And what has happened in the past, HCC did all these

11:55:07 years and all that -- but be that as it may, you get
11:55:17 an opinion from what I have been hearing.
11:55:18 However, keep in mind, you also have informed us that
11:55:21 there are several processes we must go through before
11:55:25 we get to really resolve the issue.
11:55:28 This is one of the steps in the process.
11:55:31 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Caetano.
11:55:32 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
11:55:34 I want to thank Darrell Smith for having that couch
11:55:37 picked up on County Line Road.
11:55:39 It was there for three months.
11:55:40 We need some progress.
11:55:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Still on this motion.
11:55:42 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Oh, I'm sorry.
11:55:44 All right.
11:55:45 [ Laughter ]
11:55:47 Sorry.
11:55:48 Withdraw.
11:55:55 >>MARY MULHERN: We passed this motion.
11:55:56 City Council is asking for an attorney general
11:55:58 opinion.
11:56:03 What in the chat charter says we can't do that?

11:56:07 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: It doesn't speak to the attorney
11:56:10 general opinion specifically.
11:56:10 It does talk about intergovernmental relations, you
11:56:15 and the executive and talks about the determinations
11:56:17 and operations related to legal advice and legal
11:56:22 determinations.
11:56:23 So that is really the two pieces that we would look
11:56:27 to.
11:56:27 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
11:56:30 But there's nothing in either of those categories that
11:56:34 says council can't ask for an opinion, judicial
11:56:37 opinion?
11:56:38 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Well, what would have to happen is
11:56:42 it would have to be request from the city as a whole,
11:56:45 not just the council.
11:56:46 So that would be one.
11:56:47 >>MARY MULHERN: This is very familiar to me.
11:56:50 And, you know, we passed -- what was it?
11:56:58 Council approved some wording that created some
11:57:04 proposed bill last year about the EPC that I had put
11:57:09 forward, and I think that we did go ahead and forward
11:57:17 that to the legislative delegation here, and the mayor

11:57:25 expressed the fact that she didn't a professor want
11:57:29 this to go forward in writing, and of course it was
11:57:34 all in the paper.
11:57:35 So it's not like she can't weigh in.
11:57:41 The attorney general can decide that, if he doesn't
11:57:43 want to hear it because the mayor didn't approve it,
11:57:47 they can decide that.
11:57:48 But I think I don't see any reason why council can't
11:57:50 go ahead and do that, unless you can give us some, you
11:57:53 know, specific kind of wording about that.
11:57:58 We disagree with the mayor a lot.
11:58:03 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
11:58:04 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The attorney general on that you
11:58:07 are web site, somebody copied this for me.
11:58:11 Perhaps your office, Mr. Fletcher.
11:58:13 On the web site it says persons to whom opinions may
11:58:18 be issued and in the last paragraph says, questions
11:58:20 relating to powers and duties of a public board or
11:58:23 commission or other collegial body shall be requested
11:58:27 by a majority of the members of that body, a request
11:58:29 from the board should therefore clearly indicate that
11:58:31 the opinions being sought are a majority of its

11:58:33 members and not merely by dissenting member or
11:58:37 faction.
11:58:38 So I think to a certain extent they are recognizing
11:58:41 the fact that, you know, as a body we can do this, as
11:58:44 long as we have a majority.
11:58:46 But that's not the question, I don't think, that Mr.
11:58:48 Fletcher has the answer.
11:58:49 I think Mr. Fletcher has to answer the question of
11:58:52 whether or not he is going to draft this for us, and
11:58:55 if he can't, then we have to come back next week and
11:58:58 figure out who would.
11:58:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Volunteer.
11:59:03 >>> Well, not there yet.
11:59:05 Our first preference is to have our city attorney do
11:59:09 it.
11:59:10 If he can't or won't then we'll go from there next
11:59:12 week.
11:59:12 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion.
11:59:14 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: My second bite at the apple and I
11:59:17 stop.
11:59:19 Here again, we usually in most instances say this just
11:59:24 came up.

11:59:24 I haven't had time to digest it.
11:59:27 Was HCC notified?
11:59:28 I don't know.
11:59:30 Was HCC here?
11:59:31 I don't know.
11:59:33 So maybe if they were here they would agree.
11:59:38 Whoa, I have the floor.
11:59:39 What I am saying is, from what I read and the attorney
11:59:42 general's web site, 16.013, it says both government
11:59:50 agencies shall unite and ask.
11:59:54 So at the end of the day, I'd like to see that done.
11:59:57 But if the other agency doesn't we are wasting our
12:00:01 time from what I read.
12:00:02 Maybe I don't understand what I read.
12:00:04 But I believe I do.
12:00:07 This is not vaguely written.
12:00:10 It's very specific on that fifth bullet, what it says.
12:00:14 Just to that --
12:00:17 >>> On that point I had to get consensus from other
12:00:19 local governments opinions would be rendered so it is
12:00:23 their practice where there's a dispute that they will
12:00:26 wait until all the parties to that dispute consent to

12:00:29 the opinion and their preference typically brief the
12:00:33 issue as well.
12:00:33 >>GWEN MILLER: Reverend Scott.
12:00:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I think you outlined that you cannot
12:00:41 go forward unless both parties agree.
12:00:44 So we are at the first step of this board asking what
12:00:49 to do, then at that point you have to confer with HCC
12:00:52 clearly I think in order to move forward.
12:00:55 If they don't agree, then it's my understanding it
12:00:58 cannot go forward.
12:00:59 Is that right?
12:01:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: An opinion.
12:01:01 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Certainly we can submit one.
12:01:04 But my experience and based on their rules, it would
12:01:06 be declined.
12:01:08 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: How come this one got issued to
12:01:12 Taylor county, and it was a dispute between the city
12:01:15 of Perry, the school district board and --
12:01:18 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I don't know about that one in
12:01:20 particular but typically what happens -- and I can
12:01:22 speak to two of the other one that is were issued --
12:01:24 they go jointly.

12:01:25 That's what we had initially talked to about HCC.
12:01:28 So the one in there about the dispute between HCC and
12:01:34 Hillsborough County, those were briefed jointly.
12:01:36 There's a Hernando county one that was briefed jointly
12:01:40 between the county and the school board.
12:01:41 That's typically what happens.
12:01:43 I don't know anybody involved with the Taylor county
12:01:45 one so I don't know how that one particularly got
12:01:48 submitted and reviewed.
12:01:52 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.
12:01:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I read one of those opinions and it
12:01:56 was altogether different about this.
12:01:58 It was about comprehensive planning and so forth and
12:02:00 so on.
12:02:01 It was not blood pressure what we are discussing
12:02:02 today.
12:02:03 And if HCC had been notified and said, yes, and this
12:02:08 body is going to say yes, I would say of course go
12:02:11 with it.
12:02:11 But I don't know what HCC is going to do and they are
12:02:14 not here, they were not notified to my knowledge.
12:02:16 Maybe someone did notify them.

12:02:18 Maybe they choose not to attend.
12:02:19 But this is just taking a toll on ourselves, and if
12:02:24 they say no, then I think your chances of winning are
12:02:28 about nil.
12:02:28 >>MARY MULHERN: Maybe I can modify the motion.
12:02:33 That -- you made the motion, right?
12:02:39 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
12:02:41 >>MARY MULHERN: That we investigate whether we can
12:02:43 submit, and would possibly be heard, an opinion from
12:02:50 the attorney general without the other party, which is
12:02:52 HCC, submitting at the same time.
12:02:55 I would like to see some definitive opinion on that
12:03:00 based on what Mr. Dingfelder had to say, and you are
12:03:04 telling us typically but, you know, doesn't mean
12:03:09 that -- we don't know that that means we cannot do
12:03:12 that.
12:03:14 Maybe we could continue this?
12:03:19 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What I'm concerned about is not the
12:03:21 building that's going up now because I can see
12:03:25 unfortunately an unfortunate loss caused.
12:03:28 My concern is the additional 500,000 square feet which
12:03:31 they have the ability to build, and whether or not

12:03:34 that should go under the review of the TLC.
12:03:39 So we are not in a time crunch.
12:03:41 What I would like to do is ask our City Council
12:03:43 attorney to do the work, because you are our attorney
12:03:47 and this is work you can do, to converse with the
12:03:51 attorney general's office and find out if both parties
12:03:54 need to be in agreement, to move forward with
12:03:56 something.
12:03:56 To me if you are in agreement you don't need an AG
12:03:59 opinion because you found an agreement.
12:04:00 But the purpose of taking something to the AG is --
12:04:06 Well, I don't know if you can do that.
12:04:08 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Before we get there, let me say
12:04:10 there's already a motion and second on the floor and
12:04:12 that would need to be addressed first.
12:04:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
12:04:15 I would like to modify the motion on the floor to give
12:04:18 it a 30-day time frame and invite Mr. Fletcher rather
12:04:22 than Mr. Shelby to come back to us with the idea, with
12:04:26 an answer to the question, whether the AG considers
12:04:30 only one party's request.
12:04:32 And to try to make it objective.

12:04:39 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: On that particular issue, when I
12:04:41 said typical, if I may, typically what they request is
12:04:44 both parties to brief the issue.
12:04:46 But in their procedures, it was circumstances in which
12:04:49 they declined to issue opinions, and they list a
12:04:51 number of them, it's speculative in nature, requiring
12:04:55 factual determinations, and then one of them is
12:04:57 questions involving an interpretation of local codes,
12:05:01 which is not exactly what we have here, that is
12:05:04 related, and then the on the one is matters involving
12:05:06 intergovernmental disputes, and unless all
12:05:10 governmental agencies concerned have joined in the
12:05:12 request.
12:05:12 Now joined in the request typically means consents to
12:05:15 it or their preferences, they actually brief it.
12:05:19 So they are pretty clear on that.
12:05:21 Now, there is some language in here that makes that
12:05:27 not an absolute prohibition, not an absolute complete
12:05:30 blanket prohibition, but we can certainly inquire if
12:05:36 they changed their policy on that but in my experience
12:05:39 it has been treated as an blanket prohibition.
12:05:46 >>GWEN MILLER: Second though that motion?

12:05:50 >>> I'm happy to put that in writing after we
12:05:56 contacted, and Marty and I can do that together,
12:05:58 contacted the AG's office again.
12:06:00 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to see what you write,
12:06:03 to share that with council.
12:06:04 I want to make sure that it fully expresses council's
12:06:09 concerns as the land use, as the arm of government
12:06:13 that regulates land use.
12:06:17 Thank you.
12:06:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry, I'm not exactly clear what
12:06:25 the motion is at this point.
12:06:26 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let me rephrase it.
12:06:28 It's that City Council asks Mr. Fletcher, or if he
12:06:33 feels uncomfortable doing it, someone else, to request
12:06:36 that the AG require that HCC adhere to the Barrio
12:06:44 Latino regulations, that in 30 days he gets back to us
12:06:50 with an interpretation of whether or not the AG will
12:06:53 consider it, and -- Mr. Dingfelder?
12:07:01 That's something else that he would added to that.
12:07:04 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, we have to get confirmed on your
12:07:06 motion before we start adding something to it.
12:07:08 I want to be clear.

12:07:10 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: The other thing that I did add --
12:07:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Finish your motion.
12:07:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Okay, let me start from scratch.
12:07:18 Let me start from scratch because I read it the first
12:07:20 time and that way it's clear.
12:07:26 That we request the attorney general opinion on the
12:07:30 requirement that HCC adhere to Barrio Latino
12:07:33 regulations.
12:07:38 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I have a question on the motion.
12:07:42 Are we asking the attorney general should HCC a bid by
12:07:45 the Barrio Latino regulation?
12:07:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
12:07:50 And I brought this up at the CRA meeting, and you all
12:07:54 said, no, don't bring it up in CRA, it more
12:07:57 appropriate in council.
12:07:57 I forgot to bring it up last week because it ran so
12:08:00 long.
12:08:00 I wrote everybody a memo on the point.
12:08:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Chairman, I haven't said
12:08:04 anything.
12:08:04 I thought I heard before that we need both
12:08:06 organizations to request this information.

12:08:10 So if we need both, why are we asking for it?
12:08:12 I'll support it.
12:08:14 I want to get it clear.
12:08:18 Do we need both organizations to request this opinion?
12:08:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: At this meeting and HCC has to decide
12:08:28 whether or not they are going to do it and then we'll
12:08:30 know, right?
12:08:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let's tweak this a little bit.
12:08:36 >>MARY MULHERN: Wait.
12:08:38 I have to call the -- I have to leave.
12:08:41 I have to be here.
12:08:43 Quick.
12:08:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If we are running head on into this
12:08:47 issue and frankly they went in front of us a week or
12:08:50 two ago and said they are not going to agree, so they
12:08:52 are not going to agree.
12:08:53 So then we don't need to bang on it.
12:08:57 But maybe we can make the question broader.
12:08:59 Maybe we can make the question of do on the state
12:09:01 agencies that are constructing in the Barrio Latino
12:09:04 have to a bid by the barrio rules?
12:09:06 Okay.

12:09:07 Because if we just make it broad as to, you know, you
12:09:11 have got all sorts of state agencies, or whatever you
12:09:14 want to call the -- well, HCC is a state agency.
12:09:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Accept the tweak.
12:09:21 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Throws one statute that the school
12:09:25 board and HCC are under creating this problem.
12:09:28 We want to ask the question in the context of that one
12:09:31 statute.
12:09:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: What I am saying is to get around
12:09:34 the issue of, you know, do they have to concur, maybe
12:09:37 we make it generic enough so we are concerned about
12:09:40 all state agencies concurring, and then we can say,
12:09:43 for example, HCC, okay?
12:09:47 And I think there might be a way to skin that cat,
12:09:50 because really what if the D.O.T. wanted to come in
12:09:53 and build a big D.O.T. building in the barrio?
12:09:55 Wouldn't we have the same issue?
12:09:59 >>> We would have a different statute but the same
12:10:01 issue.
12:10:02 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Exactly.
12:10:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: And the principle is it's our
12:10:05 historic district.

12:10:06 >> Call the question.
12:10:09 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Is there a second to the motion to
12:10:11 call the question?
12:10:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second Mrs. Mulhern's calling the
12:10:17 question.
12:10:17 >>MARTIN SHELBY: There is no discussion allowed on
12:10:19 that.
12:10:19 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion on the floor.
12:10:21 All in favor of that motion say Aye.
12:10:24 Opposed, Nay.
12:10:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Nay.
12:10:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Back to other issues.
12:10:34 I voted yes.
12:10:35 I want to thank the chief of staff for picking up that
12:10:38 couch on County Line Road, been there for three month.
12:10:40 We need better cooperation on these county roads,
12:10:43 because I'll tell you what, every day there's 10 or 15
12:10:48 accidents on Bruce B. Downs.
12:10:49 It loaded with cones now.
12:10:51 They are doing a lot of work in the median strip.
12:10:53 And they are going to be some newspaper guys killed on
12:10:56 Sunday there, because it very dangerous.

12:10:59 And we need more cooperation, and quicker cooperation
12:11:03 between the county and the city.
12:11:07 It not ours, it's there is.
12:11:10 What do I tell the people when they call me?
12:11:16 >> Ms. Muscle American has to leave.
12:11:18 Let me raise this issue here.
12:11:23 All of us received a memo from chief of staff Darrell
12:11:27 Smith about vacant positions.
12:11:29 And so I am requesting that we put that for discussion
12:11:32 on our April 2nd agenda regarding the budget
12:11:38 analyst.
12:11:40 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to say on that that I had
12:11:44 talked to Bonnie Wise about it being the finance
12:11:46 chair.
12:11:49 I don't know if we need to vote on it.
12:11:52 But I assumed we weren't going to go forward with that
12:11:57 this year.
12:11:58 But we can do that formally then, talk about that.
12:12:05 I would also like to add to that discussion the
12:12:08 question of the committee, because the advisory
12:12:12 committee, because a couple of people have dropped
12:12:14 out, and you have never appointed anyone.

12:12:18 >> I appointed someone but ruled they couldn't serve.
12:12:21 >>MARY MULHERN: So we don't have a large group.
12:12:23 And in fairness to them, I would like to have City
12:12:28 Council address whether they support this or not, and
12:12:33 have agent discussion about it.
12:12:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: April 2nd.
12:12:38 My motion was that we do it April 2nd, which is
12:12:41 next Thursday.
12:12:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
12:12:45 >>MARY MULHERN: April 2nd, right.
12:12:48 I would like to ask at that point to advise us that
12:12:50 they are going to cooperate with the existing
12:12:53 commission.
12:12:55 That's the question they asked me.
12:12:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
12:12:57 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion already.
12:13:01 Mr. Caetano, question on the motion?
12:13:04 We have a motion and second.
12:13:05 All in favor say Aye.
12:13:06 April 2nd we are going to discuss the vacancy we
12:13:08 have.
12:13:11 All in favor of that motion say Aye.

12:13:13 Opposed, Nay.
12:13:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And the one last thing that I have is
12:13:17 a memo of Cindy Miller requesting that we move the
12:13:20 workshop, from May 28th now to April 23rd.
12:13:25 That is on the presentation of the citizen survey in
12:13:31 connection with the one day vision initiative.
12:13:33 She wanted to move that from the 28th now to the
12:13:36 23rd.
12:13:38 >>MARTIN SHELBY: 23rd of --
12:13:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved.
12:13:44 >>CHAIRMAN: what time?
12:13:47 >>MARTIN SHELBY: 23rd of March, you said?
12:13:50 >> 23rd of April doing the workshop.
12:13:52 The question becomes, because there's also discussion
12:13:55 by the budget as well.
12:13:59 We can say 11:00 then.
12:14:02 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
12:14:04 (Motion carried).
12:14:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
12:14:06 Mr. Caetano.
12:14:08 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Talking to Mr. Fletcher, he told
12:14:12 me that the county is going to put a complete no

12:14:17 solicitation on these median strips.
12:14:20 And that would be Bruce B. Downs Boulevard, I guess
12:14:23 throughout the whole county.
12:14:25 And I want this to be on the agenda for next week for
12:14:28 the city and I'll get something prepared to introduce
12:14:31 next week to accept and to go about these guidelines.
12:14:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Second.
12:14:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Moved and seconded.
12:14:40 (Motion carried).
12:14:42 >>MARTIN SHELBY: That will be under staff reports?
12:14:44 Under staff reports regarding solicitation ordinance
12:14:48 by Hillsborough County?
12:14:49 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Right.
12:14:50 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you.
12:14:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Any other new business?
12:14:52 Motion to receive and file.
12:14:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Move to receive and file.
12:14:56 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
12:14:57 (Motion carried)
12:14:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Then we stand in recess until 6:00
12:15:00 tonight.
12:15:00


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