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TAMPA CITY COUNCIL

Thursday, June 17, 2010

9:00 a.m. Work Session



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09:07:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.

09:07:41 Sherry Silk has been in the animal welfare work for 30

09:07:46 years and has been working with Hillsborough County

09:07:47 animal service to help lower euthanasia rate in our

09:07:55 community.

09:07:56 Will you please stand and remain standing for the

09:07:58 pledge of allegiance?

09:07:59 >> During these hard times, help us give freely of

09:08:12 ourselves in ways that make a difference to our

09:08:14 families, to our cities and our nation.

09:08:17 Let us remember the troops serving our country. We

09:08:17 ask for protection for them as well as their families.

09:08:21 Please help them find peace where there is none.

09:08:24 As always, but especially with the tragic Gulf oil

09:08:27 spill, let us remember the words of Ghandi: The

09:08:30 greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be

09:08:32 judged by the way its animals are treated.

09:08:35 I hold that the most helpless of creatures, the more

09:08:39 entitled to be protected by man from the cruelty of

09:08:41 humankind.

09:08:42 Let us not forget all the creatures suffering every day

09:08:45 at the hands of humankind and let us do all we can to

09:08:47 help their suffering.

09:08:49 Amen.

09:08:49 (Pledge of Allegiance)

09:09:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.

09:09:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.

09:09:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.

09:09:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.

09:09:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.

09:09:16 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.




09:09:19 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to put on the record that

09:09:21 Reverend Scott will not be at the morning session.

09:09:23 He will not be at the afternoon session.

09:09:25 And Mr. Dingfelder will not be attending the workshop

09:09:27 this morning.

09:09:31 Put this on file.

09:09:32 And at this time I am going to do Officer of the Month.

09:09:34 And I have a walk-on commendation for Officer of the

09:09:37 Month.

09:09:45 Good morning, council.

09:09:54 It's always my pleasure to do Officer of the Month

09:09:55 because we have some great officers in this City of

09:09:57 Tampa.

09:09:58 I am going to let the chief tell you why we have the

09:10:02 Officer of the Month.

09:10:03 >> Chief Castor: It's my pleasure as it is every month

09:10:08 to come before you with one of our best officers.

09:10:10 This month, the officer is Whitney McCormick.

09:10:14 And she just has a nose for finding criminals and

09:10:19 sniffing out crime.

09:10:20 She does an amazing job.

09:10:21 I am going to give you just a couple of examples




09:10:24 because I could literally stand before you all day.

09:10:26 She investigated a domestic dispute that turned into

09:10:30 aggravated assault and false imprisonment, and when

09:10:35 officers arrived on the scene the suspect had fled.

09:10:38 The neighbors received information that he may have

09:10:40 been in his father's business down the road.

09:10:42 Went down, did an initial search of the business and

09:10:44 couldn't find him.

09:10:46 Officer McCormick thought that she smelled cigarette

09:10:48 smoke in there, asked the owner again if they could go

09:10:51 in and search one more time, and she found the

09:10:53 individual hiding in a back room, and she was able to

09:10:56 place him under arrest.

09:10:58 In another incident, an officer put out a BOLO for a

09:11:04 stolen car, a car that had just been stolen from

09:11:07 Lincoln and west Tampa Bay Boulevard.

09:11:08 Officer McCormick thought if I had stolen this car

09:11:13 what path of travel would you go?

09:11:15 She went up and set up covertly in her vehicle to do

09:11:18 surveillance.

09:11:19 Here comes the stolen car.

09:11:22 She actually very maturely for the experience that she




09:11:26 has didn't get into a pursuit with this vehicle right

09:11:28 away.

09:11:29 She called for air service, called for backup units and

09:11:31 was able to box this vehicle in at Armenia and union

09:11:35 and make an arrest without incident and recover the car

09:11:38 with no damage.

09:11:39 So I'm always thankful when there's no pursuits

09:11:42 involved.

09:11:42 And then actually two more incidents.

09:11:47 While patrolling the North Boulevard area she works in

09:11:50 West Tampa, she saw a vehicle with the driver and the

09:11:54 passenger weren't wearing their seat belts. she went

09:11:56 to pull the vehicle over.

09:11:57 The passenger jumped out and ran.

09:12:00 She arrested or detained the driver without incident.

09:12:04 Then afterwards, she went around and asked where this

09:12:07 passenger may have run.

09:12:09 Her connections in West Tampa, she was able to get an

09:12:11 apartment location where they said he ran into.

09:12:15 She went in, talked to the owner of the apartment, or

09:12:19 the resident in the apartment.

09:12:20 She said, sure, you can come in here and look, and




09:12:23 ended up arresting the passenger who had 15 grams of

09:12:26 marijuana and $18,000 in his pocket.

09:12:29 She called for a canine unit, came in, searched the

09:12:33 rest of the apartment, and found an additional $27,400

09:12:37 hidden in a closet in there.

09:12:39 So there was a total of 15 grams of marijuana and

09:12:43 $45,400 in cash that she seized off of a simple traffic

09:12:48 stop.

09:12:49 Also, she did another traffic stop along Main Street

09:12:53 for a simple traffic violation.

09:12:55 Instead of just writing a citation and letting that go

09:12:59 she noticed in the pickup truck that there were several

09:13:01 parts of F-250 trucks, and we had gone through a rash

09:13:05 of having those types of trucks stolen.

09:13:08 So she detained the driver and the passenger.

09:13:13 That simple traffic stop turned into a

09:13:18 multi-jurisdictional investigation where individuals

09:13:21 were stealing these trucks, stripping them and selling

09:13:23 the parts and sending them to various areas throughout

09:13:27 the United States.

09:13:29 Again, I could go on and on about the different

09:13:32 incidents that she's been involved in.




09:13:34 We have what's called daily incident log, and it

09:13:38 highlights all of the larger incidents, more important

09:13:43 incidents that happen in the city.

09:13:44 And just about all the ones that come out of the West

09:13:46 Tampa area involve officer McCormick and her partner

09:13:50 officer in those incidents.

09:13:56 She's invaluable to the Tampa Police Department and has

09:13:58 less than two years experience with us.

09:14:00 But we have great expectations and I am very proud to

09:14:04 present her as the Officer of the Month.

09:14:06 Thank you.

09:14:07 [ Applause ]

09:14:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer McCormick, we would like to

09:14:15 present this commendation from the City Council, to say

09:14:19 all of the great things Chief Castor said, I will not

09:14:22 read it to you, I just present it to you.

09:14:24 At this time we are going to have the private sector

09:14:25 give you some gifts and I will start with Charlie's

09:14:29 steakhouse.

09:14:32 I have one for you.

09:14:33 >> I have four ticket for you.

09:14:49 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepps Towing service.




09:14:52 By the way, we just celebrated our 50th

09:14:55 anniversary.

09:14:56 On behalf of Jim and Judy and Todd Stepp for a job very

09:15:01 well done, we would like to present this statute to

09:15:04 you.

09:15:04 And we also have a gift certificate to Lee Roy Selmons.

09:15:08 So enjoy it.

09:15:14 >> I'm Frank DeSoto, represent Bill Currie Ford Lincoln

09:15:20 Mercury.

09:15:21 We would like to congratulate you on a job well done

09:15:24 and presents you with this watch.

09:15:26 Thank you very much.

09:15:36 >> Greg style.

09:15:39 On behalf of the Tampa PBA we are so proud of all of

09:15:45 our officers.

09:15:45 This is a $100 gift certificate for you.

09:15:47 Congratulations.

09:15:47 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Need a third hand?

09:15:53 You are going to be full here before you go.

09:15:55 More ways than one.

09:15:57 We have a gift certificate for you to Bern's steakhouse

09:16:01 so you can go enjoy yourself over there at Bern's, and




09:16:05 before you go to Bern's, because you don't want to be

09:16:07 too full you can go to Bryn Allen studios and have your

09:16:11 picture taken and have a nice photographic package.

09:16:14 On behalf of rigatoni's you can go and have lunch so

09:16:19 after chasing all these guys around.

09:16:22 Go to rigatoni's and enjoy yourself with a nice lunch.

09:16:26 On behalf of all of these individuals we are

09:16:28 contributing to the police department and the officers

09:16:30 of the month.

09:16:30 We say congratulations.

09:16:34 [ Applause ]

09:16:35 >> I just want to say thank you, Chief Castor and City

09:16:45 Council, for having me here, and obviously it's one

09:16:53 thing that only I get to stand up here but it's not an

09:16:56 individual effort, it's a team effort on an everyday

09:16:59 basis.

09:17:00 I just want to say thank you.

09:17:01 >> Congratulations.

09:17:04 [ Applause ]

09:17:05 >>GWEN MILLER: At this time council has another

09:17:16 commendation, a walk-on.

09:17:22 I would like to read this commendation to Mary Cooper,




09:17:44 in recollection knicks of Mary Cooper's continued

09:17:48 involvement with young women and young men whereby

09:17:51 character, education, community service and scholarship

09:17:53 programs, Tampa City Council would like to take this

09:17:58 opportunity to commend you for your years of dedicated

09:18:02 service for having the vision to create an avenue for

09:18:04 which young people can grow in areas such as

09:18:09 self-awareness, of those less fortunate and need to

09:18:13 seek higher education.

09:18:14 Because of you the longest African-American program in

09:18:19 our area still lives on, the Tampa City Council sends

09:18:22 best wishes to you and hope you continue to move

09:18:24 forward in all your future endeavors.

09:18:28 [ Applause ]

09:18:33 >> Good morning.

09:18:34 And I would like to also say thank you.

09:18:38 But I wanted to share with you my last message for this

09:18:44 year, and it goes like this.

09:18:46 Just a minute.

09:18:47 As another successful continuing year comes to an end,

09:18:51 I must thank and applaud my dedicated parents who are

09:18:56 so diligently assisting the organization by attending




09:18:59 all practice, rehearsal, taking roll, ordering

09:19:03 T-shirts, researching and communicating details,

09:19:06 providing refreshments and more.

09:19:09 This particular group effort on behalf of our dedicated

09:19:13 parents is encouraging and forthright.

09:19:21 May he continue to bless you and your efforts are

09:19:28 appreciated by the voice for unity in education and the

09:19:32 Tampa cotillion debutante organization.

09:19:38 It is important to work with parents to a common goal

09:19:40 by press impressing upon our students the need for

09:19:45 adequate everyday life as a way to further the idea

09:19:50 that practice makes perfect.

09:19:52 Therefore, students and members of the Tampa cotillion

09:19:58 debutante organization will have an opportunity to

09:19:59 improve their dining, social and professional etiquette

09:20:03 by attending the school of etiquette during the summer,

09:20:06 for a certificate of completion.

09:20:07 The school of etiquette is provided for members of the

09:20:11 Tampa cotillion debutante organization but is also open

09:20:15 to the public as well.

09:20:17 As a graduate of Howard W. Blake high school, Bethune

09:20:24 Cookman college, Florida A&M university, it has always




09:20:26 been my goal to return our young ladies and young men

09:20:29 to an era of politeness and professionalism.

09:20:35 And then as it is now it takes a community effort.

09:20:38 It starts with our parents in the community, employing,

09:20:42 demanding and expecting nothing short of greatness.

09:20:50 Positiveness in the community increases by creating an

09:20:52 environment of sharing, caring, forgiving,

09:20:55 understanding.

09:20:57 Those words are what I have taught 31 years by.

09:21:03 I just used to wear a little sign around my neck so

09:21:06 students would remember this is what we have to do

09:21:08 every day.

09:21:08 Not some days, but every day.

09:21:11 With consistency and wholeheartedness, we can rebuild

09:21:15 and increase opportunity for our children as a

09:21:19 community.

09:21:19 And I thank you so much for this.

09:21:22 I thank you.

09:21:27 [ Applause ]

09:21:32 This is miss Coretta green.

09:21:35 She's our junior queen for this year.

09:21:37 And this is -- help me -- this is one of our queens for




09:21:46 this year representing the whole organization.

09:21:53 And we have Antonio, one of our magnificent escorts.

09:22:00 And we have one of our dedicated parents.

09:22:09 I couldn't do it without them because all of the

09:22:11 parents volunteered their time.

09:22:14 Okay, no one gets paid.

09:22:16 This is volunteer time.

09:22:19 And my daughter Sherri, who is my legs a lot of times

09:22:25 because I am unable to really move like I used to when

09:22:28 I was 16.

09:22:30 Okay.

09:22:34 And very helpful young man.

09:22:39 And I just appreciate all of them so much.

09:22:41 And I thank you again for this award.

09:22:49 Thank you.

09:22:50 [ Applause ]

09:22:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It's my pleasure to introduce the

09:23:02 head of the MOSI museum, Mr. Wit Ostrenko to announce

09:23:10 the 2010 national Hispanic scientist of the year award.

09:23:16 Thank you, Wit.

09:23:17 >> WIT OSTRENKO: The people that precede us, makes us

09:23:29 very proud of being a citizen living in the City of




09:23:32 Tampa.

09:23:33 For 41 years and working with young people in this

09:23:35 community, that's what makes the City of Tampa, Tampa.

09:23:41 And we are doing our part

09:23:44 We are announcing this year our tenth Hispanic

09:23:47 scientist of the year to encourage young people to

09:23:54 become engaged in the world of science, and just stay

09:23:56 in school and graduate.

09:23:57 The Hispanic population still has a 30% dropout rate.

09:24:02 And this year, we are announcing Dr. Dan Arvizu, who is

09:24:12 the first Hispanic to become head of a U.S. laboratory.

09:24:17 He's head of the Alternative Energies Laboratory in

09:24:20 Colorado.

09:24:22 And we do this because these people become mentors for

09:24:26 young people.

09:24:28 All of these scientists start out very humble

09:24:31 beginnings, they start out just as kids as any other

09:24:34 kids.

09:24:35 In fact, one of our children that came of the 1300 kids

09:24:40 that are coming to listen to the scientist, a teacher

09:24:44 came in and said, she asked Frank Calderra, the first

09:24:52 Hispanic astronaut, to go over and say a few kids at




09:24:55 middle school, so Frank sat down next to him and said,

09:25:04 "You can be an astronaut."

09:25:06 And got up and left.

09:25:09 The next year that teacher reported back to us that

09:25:11 that one comment changed that kid's life.

09:25:17 And he wants to be an astronaut and I have no doubt

09:25:20 that he could possibly be.

09:25:22 But it changed his life.

09:25:26 So that's why we are up here and we had 13,000 kids gob

09:25:32 through and talk directly to the wonderful Hispanic

09:25:35 scientist as a role model for them.

09:25:38 I want to introduce you to the chairman of this year's

09:25:41 event, Mr. Mario Garcia who is a board member.

09:25:48 >> I want to the say a few things.

09:25:49 First thank you for your past support.

09:25:52 Mark down October 16th, our event.

09:25:54 I will be following up with a letter to personally

09:25:57 invite each and every one of you.

09:26:00 We are in our tenth year.

09:26:02 Last year was our best year ever.

09:26:03 We raised more money than ever before, and in the worst

09:26:07 economy since the great depression is what they say.




09:26:10 That's exciting.

09:26:11 We sold out 81% of our actual dollars that we were able

09:26:15 to get in the door.

09:26:19 So we are helping more people.

09:26:21 We are helping more kids understanding the whole

09:26:25 statistical thing coming from a Hispanic background.

09:26:28 I know first hand that these kids need help.

09:26:32 So again I just want to thank you and hopefully your

09:26:36 continued support as well.

09:26:39 Oh, I'm sorry, Bright House.

09:26:43 They have been our sponsor since day one and they

09:26:45 continue to be our main sponsor, and we thank them very

09:26:48 much as well.

09:26:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Did Ms. Azorin create this program?

09:27:00 >> Yes, happens to be our chairman of the board.

09:27:02 >> Have we recognized her for this initiative?

09:27:05 I don't believe we have.

09:27:06 I think that's something that council should do.

09:27:09 It's been so significant, and ten years is very

09:27:12 impressive.

09:27:12 >> National recognition, in fact, probably one of the

09:27:17 main reasons why MOSI won the national award, the




09:27:21 highest award that a museum can receive in this country

09:27:25 out of 17,500 museums.

09:27:27 So City of Tampa is a recipient of that award.

09:27:30 So that will be great to do that.

09:27:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Perhaps closer to the date of the

09:27:36 actual dinner we can do a commendation.

09:27:38 I make a motion.

09:27:40 The Thursday closest to October 16th that we

09:27:42 recognize Miss Maruchi Azorin Blanco for her

09:27:50 leadership.

09:27:51 Will she still be chairman of the board?

09:27:53 >> Yes.

09:27:54 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.

09:27:56 All in favor say Aye.

09:27:57 Opposed?

09:27:59 Mr. Miranda?

09:28:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I want to say thank you to wit and

09:28:02 all the good work your museum is doing and your

09:28:05 national recognition is really appreciative of all the

09:28:10 hard work of yourself and staff, the people who run the

09:28:13 fund-raising activities and the amount of moneys that

09:28:15 go into these funds.




09:28:16 I really appreciate it.

09:28:17 >>GWEN MILLER: We now have a commendation to Miss

09:28:25 Brickhouse from Mr. Dingfelder.

09:28:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Good morning, council.

09:28:45 We have a commendation for one of Miss Brickhouse's

09:28:48 employees, and she's here to accept it on behalf of

09:28:50 Robert Corley.

09:28:54 We have a problem in our community that all communities

09:28:56 have, tragically sometimes they get hit and killed on

09:29:01 the road and that sort of thing.

09:29:03 I don't mean to be a downer this morning.

09:29:05 But what happens is a lot of times the families never

09:29:09 have closure, because they never know what happened to

09:29:14 their animals.

09:29:17 The solid waste department, probably in conjunction

09:29:19 with the department of public works, you know, gets the

09:29:22 animal off the road and disposes of them without really

09:29:26 knowing.

09:29:27 If it doesn't have tags they don't know who to contact.

09:29:30 Apparently that's Mr. Corley's unfortunate job to deal

09:29:34 with the animals and dispose of it. Anyway, I am going

09:29:37 to let these guys tell the rest of the story, and




09:29:42 Sherri silk is the director of the Humane Society, and

09:29:48 I will let you talk.

09:29:48 >>TANYA BRICKHOUSE: It gives me great honor to stand

09:29:51 here on behalf of Robert Corley.

09:29:54 I will just share with you that a simple suggestion

09:29:57 drop into the director's suggestion box.

09:30:01 Robert Corley has been with the city since 2007, has

09:30:03 been with the department of solid waste for ten months,

09:30:07 and kept seeing well kept animals that he was having to

09:30:11 pick up and dispose of, and he said, seems like to me

09:30:16 somebody really cares about these animals.

09:30:17 They were well taken care of.

09:30:19 So he dropped a suggestion in the suggestion box.

09:30:21 And out of that came this partnership with the Humane

09:30:24 Society.

09:30:26 I made a simple call to say, hey, one of my employees

09:30:28 has come up with an idea.

09:30:30 Can you provide us with a pet scan ID so if it's got a

09:30:34 Chip in it then we can connect the pet with the family

09:30:37 and help bring closure, as councilman Dingfelder

09:30:42 indicated.

09:30:42 So what Sherri and I wanted to do was kind of




09:30:45 demonstrate how simple this is and how a simple piece

09:30:47 of paper in a box could do to make a difference in the

09:30:49 lives of people and in this community.

09:30:53 Let me introduce rusty.

09:30:56 We actually did a micro Chip in rusty.

09:31:00 About the size of a grain of rice.

09:31:03 About 15.

09:31:04 And sometimes collars do fall off.

09:31:06 So he was microchipped yesterday.

09:31:08 So Mr. Gore Corley, it comes up with a number and phone

09:31:15 number and the families can be notified.

09:31:18 There's nothing worse than looking every day for your

09:31:20 lost dog and you will never find it.

09:31:22 As John said it is closure.

09:31:24 So what a wonderful thing for your employee to come up

09:31:26 with that lovely suggestion because it is closure for

09:31:29 people that really love their pets.

09:31:30 We are happy to do it for you.

09:31:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And will present a commendation on

09:31:38 behalf of City Council to Mr. Corley.

09:31:40 We want to encourage all city employees to keep coming

09:31:43 up with ideas.




09:31:45 Thank you.

09:31:47 [ Applause ]

09:31:49 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I would like to ask a question.

09:31:52 In the past six months, I have had two dogs in my

09:31:55 district, one about a week ago, ten days ago, and I

09:32:00 tried to get the dog picked up and I couldn't.

09:32:03 He have day I go by there.

09:32:04 In fact, I had an interview with ABC news and the

09:32:10 gentleman happens to live up in Grand Hampton.

09:32:12 He said I went by and saw this dog, and my son was with

09:32:15 me.

09:32:16 It's somebody's pet.

09:32:19 And two weeks later the dog is still there.

09:32:22 Of course, he's eaten up and everything else.

09:32:29 And who is Mr. Corley?

09:32:32 >> Mr. Corley is in my department, but the area near

09:32:35 Grand Hampton is serviced by the county.

09:32:38 And so it falls outside of our area.

09:32:40 Watt we did do on that case was we did notify the

09:32:43 county.

09:32:45 I'll follow up and see what happened in that.

09:32:47 But if I am hearing you correctly the dog is still




09:32:51 there so we need to do some follow-up with that.

09:32:54 But, unfortunately, Grand Hampton falls out side of the

09:32:57 City of Tampa's solid waste area responsibility.

09:33:01 And so we try to make sure that we partner with the

09:33:03 county to identify them when we get the calls in.

09:33:08 Let me follow up on that and see where the breakdown

09:33:11 occurs.

09:33:11 Because that area is where they built the new shopping

09:33:13 center.

09:33:14 And I know as a requirement, they had to put sidewalks

09:33:16 in according to the city code.

09:33:19 So the city must have some jurisdiction there.

09:33:21 >>TANYA BRICKHOUSE: Not the area of solid waste.

09:33:29 That is covered by the county.

09:33:30 So I am going to follow up to see if there's some other

09:33:33 mechanism in the city.

09:33:34 >> Okay, thank you.

09:33:35 >> We now go to our workshop.

09:33:40 Let's open our workshop.

09:33:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved to open the workshop.

09:33:48 >>GWEN MILLER: All of them.

09:33:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.




09:33:50 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.

09:33:51 All in favor?

09:33:52 Opposed?

09:33:53 Item number 4.

09:33:54 Who is going to talk about it?

09:33:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Because these workshops might go

09:34:02 more quickly than the time that's allocated, I would

09:34:05 ask that any of the staff people watching who perhaps

09:34:10 are for the 10:00 or 10:30 to pay attention so they can

09:34:13 come over here.

09:34:14 >>GWEN MILLER: And please come over so you can be on

09:34:18 the program.

09:34:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: This was, I believe, set at the

09:34:24 request of -- the original motion was made by council

09:34:28 member Dingfelder.

09:34:30 Seconded by councilman Miranda on April 1st.

09:34:32 And this was on -- I believe it wags set at the request

09:34:38 of letters that City Council members had received from

09:34:44 T.H.A.N., I believe.

09:34:45 I believe there's some representatives from T.H.A.N.

09:34:47 here.

09:34:48 As we speak.




09:34:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Does everyone have a copy of the

09:34:58 letter?

09:34:59 Should I get more copies?

09:35:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Who is going to speak, Mr. Shelby?

09:35:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It's council's motion.

09:35:08 If you want me to speak, I can.

09:35:09 >>GWEN MILLER: And then have public comment.

09:35:12 >> Get somebody to make copies of that, if I can.

09:35:22 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, as you know, since the early

09:35:30 1990s, the Florida Supreme Court and the courts of

09:35:33 the state have moved towards a more judicial process

09:35:39 for rezoning and for land use issues.

09:35:43 And you know the issue of property rights has gotten

09:35:48 stronger over the years, and to let you know from your

09:35:53 own experience you can observe that we are moving away

09:35:58 from the quasi-judicial and become seemingly more

09:36:03 judicial each year, every time that requirements are

09:36:07 placed upon City Council.

09:36:08 That being said, council, there are certain procedural

09:36:13 due process rights that have to be afforded for all

09:36:18 parties who have legal standing in these proceedings.

09:36:21 And part of my job, and the job of the legal




09:36:24 department, is to ensure that whatever decision that

09:36:27 council makes is legally sustainable.

09:36:30 And one of the things that we need to avoid is

09:36:33 infringing upon any party's due process rights.

09:36:35 With regard to the time constraints that council has

09:36:39 placed upon the dates, I should point out that in

09:36:47 council's rules currently, it states that requests for

09:36:51 additional time may only be granted if the party making

09:36:54 the request establishes to the satisfaction of council

09:36:57 that additional time is necessary to afford procedural

09:37:01 due process.

09:37:02 Council members shall, by majority vote, grant or deny

09:37:06 the request and determine if additional time is

09:37:10 necessary.

09:37:11 And the concern, council, that needs to be addressed is

09:37:16 what rights are afforded by granting additional time,

09:37:21 what rights are infringed by those who don't get

09:37:27 additional time, and the other thing that I would like

09:37:29 to stress to council is that we always say that your

09:37:34 decision has to be based on competent, substantial

09:37:37 evidence.

09:37:40 And what that means is when we say substantial, we all




09:37:42 know what substantial S.but when we say competent, what

09:37:45 do we mean?

09:37:47 It has to be relevant.

09:37:48 It has to be material to the subject matter, to be able

09:37:51 to make a decision.

09:37:53 And as you know, if a party stands up -- or not even a

09:38:03 party.

09:38:03 If a speaker stands up at the lecturn and said, 200 of

09:38:08 us have met together in a meeting, and we voted, and we

09:38:13 unanimously oppose this project, in a court of law that

09:38:20 has zero legal effect, and the public, I believe, needs

09:38:27 to understand that.

09:38:28 When it comes to you making a decision.

09:38:34 What the distinction is just the number of people or

09:38:36 the opinions doesn't matter.

09:38:39 It has to be factually based.

09:38:41 So if the time is granted to anybody, it would be my

09:38:48 recommendation -- of course, I can't advise people

09:38:51 legally, but the important thing for people to know is

09:38:56 just saying that you are opposed to something, or

09:38:57 having a large number of people opposed to something,

09:38:59 has absolutely no legal weight because it's not




09:39:04 material to your decision-making process to the issue.

09:39:11 I see councilman Dingfelder raising his hand.

09:39:13 But what I am suggesting, council, is that when people

09:39:17 do get up here to speak before council, that what they

09:39:22 do is they focus their energies on facts that support

09:39:27 their positions, that they don't get up there and make

09:39:31 a conclusion but present council with facts upon which

09:39:34 you can rely on to base your decisions so that whatever

09:39:37 decisions you make is upheld and sustained in court.

09:39:41 So that being said, that's my it would be cents.

09:39:46 I hadn't prepared to make a presentation, but this

09:39:51 being a request by the community, I'm happy to hear

09:39:55 council's discussion on the matter.

09:39:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.

09:39:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.

09:40:00 We have a letter here from T.H.A.N. and looks like some

09:40:02 representatives from T.H.A.N.

09:40:05 T.H.A.N. requested council neighborhoods of record,

09:40:08 those listed on the neighborhood registry, ten minutes

09:40:10 to present the neighborhood's views and facts from the

09:40:15 neighborhood instead of the current allotment of three

09:40:18 minutes.




09:40:20 Mr. Shelby, right now, we go out of our way to identify

09:40:23 the neighborhood where the particular petition resides,

09:40:28 and to make sure that that neighborhood association

09:40:31 president and officer gets specific notice, over and

09:40:36 above the surrounding circle.

09:40:37 Correct?

09:40:38 >> Yes.

09:40:38 >> We must do that for a reason.

09:40:42 But at the end of the day, I don't believe that our

09:40:45 rules even speak to the fact that the that particular

09:40:51 neighborhood representative gets any particular amount

09:40:55 of time.

09:40:57 If the neighborhood president shows up, he or she would

09:41:00 get the same three minutes as anybody else who wants to

09:41:02 speak.

09:41:02 Correct?

09:41:04 I think that there is a difference between a

09:41:10 neighborhood, okay, an affected neighborhood, and just,

09:41:15 you know, any citizen who happens to live in the area

09:41:17 who wants to speak for or against that particular

09:41:19 thing.

09:41:20 That's one of the reasons that we have encouraged




09:41:22 neighborhoods over the last 20 years.

09:41:26 And I give mayor Freedman and that council back then a

09:41:30 lot of kudos for starting those programs and working

09:41:35 and help grow T.H.A.N., develop T.H.A.N. and all the

09:41:37 other neighborhoods that are part of T.H.A.N.

09:41:41 I think the request if not ten minutes, maybe five

09:41:48 minutes or seven minutes or something like that.

09:41:49 It's very reasonable.

09:41:52 If the neighborhood association asks for it.

09:41:56 Obviously we are not going to start or stop the

09:41:57 proceedings and say, you know, the neighborhood

09:42:00 association must be here for their ten allotted

09:42:04 minutes.

09:42:04 But if the neighborhood association appears, if they

09:42:06 have been noticed, as the recognized neighborhood

09:42:11 association, if that neighborhood association officer

09:42:14 appears, and if they desire that ten minutes.

09:42:16 The other thing I wanted to mention in response to your

09:42:18 comments is the neighborhood associations are much more

09:42:21 sophisticated in terms of the evidence that they

09:42:24 typically are capable of putting together and

09:42:27 presenting because most of them have been through it




09:42:30 before.

09:42:30 And as compared to the average neighbor next door who

09:42:36 ho may get up and say, I don't like it, I don't want

09:42:39 it.

09:42:39 So in some ways by doing this and encouraging the

09:42:42 neighborhood association to be the spokesperson for

09:42:44 that surrounding area, maybe the quality of comments

09:42:49 and testimony that we receive would actually improve

09:42:54 with this, and maybe if the neighborhood association

09:42:56 has their ten allotted minutes, then maybe the

09:42:59 individual neighbors might not have as much quality in

09:43:03 testimony might not feel the need to get up and say

09:43:06 their piece, because the neighborhood association has

09:43:09 already done it for them.

09:43:10 So I think it's something worth thinking about.

09:43:12 I think we are short two important members today who

09:43:14 really should be here to further this discussion, so I

09:43:19 don't know if we need to take any kind of vote or

09:43:22 direction on it.

09:43:24 I would like to see us have a full board before we get

09:43:26 to that point.

09:43:27 But we obviously want to hear from folks, too.




09:43:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Saul-Sena.

09:43:31 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.

09:43:32 I agree with everything that Mr. Dingfelder just said,

09:43:35 particularly about the experience at this point that

09:43:39 neighborhood organizations have in recognizing how to

09:43:43 present appropriate testimony that's fact-based, that

09:43:46 presents supportable evidence.

09:43:48 And the way that it works now, they have to orchestrate

09:43:53 a very complex presentation so that this person's three

09:43:58 minutes limits of testimony and that person makes three

09:44:00 minutes worth of testimony, that some neighborhoods

09:44:02 have an individual who is particularly gifted in

09:44:05 presenting their words, and they are currently limited.

09:44:09 And I apologize.

09:44:10 I have a sore throat.

09:44:12 I would like to hear from the neighborhoods.

09:44:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Also, council, any speaker has the

09:44:19 ability to use the speaker waiver form.

09:44:21 And if there is a substantial number of people who wish

09:44:23 to waive their time and -- granted they do have to be

09:44:26 here, but any speaker can speak up to ten minutes if

09:44:29 they have seven additional people who wish to waive




09:44:32 their time.

09:44:33 My question, playing devil's advocate on this, I don't

09:44:38 have a position strongly except for the fact from a

09:44:41 legal standpoint.

09:44:45 A neighborhood association now, the way it's

09:44:48 constructed, is carefully crafted to avoid making --

09:44:55 giving them, in effect, making them a legal party.

09:44:58 In other words, making them President Obama tensionally

09:45:00 liable as well.

09:45:03 If they have legal standing.

09:45:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Liable for what?

09:45:12 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: City attorney.

09:45:13 I think where Marty is going with that is as we develop

09:45:17 different procedures we have heard from the

09:45:19 neighborhood associations that they don't want to have

09:45:23 special rights, so to speak, that would allow them to

09:45:26 be a party to a proceeding that would allow them to

09:45:29 essentially receive a slap suit if somebody was on the

09:45:36 other end of a slap suit, and I'm not sure that this is

09:45:39 what we are talking about would do that, but there is a

09:45:42 consideration here in that regard, and I think they

09:45:49 would have organizational standing if they were




09:45:50 organized and had members that were affected from a

09:45:53 legal standpoint, if your members are affected, as an

09:45:56 organization can step in and represent their rights.

09:45:59 So I think we can work through those issues.

09:46:01 In line with where Marty was going, my one comment

09:46:05 would be that if we are going to allow really organized

09:46:10 opposition to projects, to have additional time, which

09:46:14 is fine -- many jurisdictions do it.

09:46:18 We have looked at different places.

09:46:19 It's not uncommon for organized opposition to have a

09:46:24 set amount of time equivalent to or in the typical role

09:46:29 of the applicant's process.

09:46:31 So if the applicant got, say, ten minutes to present

09:46:33 their case, then the organized opposition might get ten

09:46:38 minutes and then the applicant might get to close with

09:46:40 five minutes rebuttal.

09:46:42 Something like that is not uncommon.

09:46:44 That does two things.

09:46:45 One, it protects the due process rights of the

09:46:47 opposition as well.

09:46:49 There's some case law that they have certain rights to

09:46:51 be able to put on evidence and cross-examine




09:46:53 potentially witnesses under certain limited

09:46:56 circumstances, so that kind of procedure would be

09:46:58 helpful.

09:46:59 The only caution would be we would need to make that

09:47:02 available really to any organized opposition.

09:47:04 I think in practice it would be the neighborhood

09:47:09 association's, but if there was a project that the

09:47:10 Sierra Club had that they were particularly opposed to,

09:47:12 or condo association or something like that, it's not a

09:47:15 registered neighborhood group, I think we would have an

09:47:18 obligation to give them some more treatment.

09:47:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.

09:47:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I like what I'm hearing from both

09:47:27 of our learned counsel.

09:47:32 Maybe it's a similar process to what we spoke to a

09:47:34 little while ago that's already part of our process,

09:47:38 like a petitioner.

09:47:38 Petitioner feels the need for additional minutes.

09:47:42 They let us know in advance, let council nobody in

09:47:47 advance or the clerk or whatever, and then, you know,

09:47:50 you would deal with it.

09:47:52 So maybe there's an option there that a recognized




09:47:58 organization, be it an affected neighborhood

09:48:00 organization, or an alternative organization, Sierra

09:48:03 Club, or FCAN or what have you, might, you know, really

09:48:10 want to be involved, realize they need additional time,

09:48:12 and they would be in a position to ask for that ten

09:48:14 minutes.

09:48:15 Not necessarily as a matter of right, but as a matter

09:48:19 of council prerogative.

09:48:21 And I think that's a step in the right direction.

09:48:26 I think -- in some cases it's really warranted.

09:48:31 And other cases don't necessarily.

09:48:33 So maybe it's sort of at council's discretion.

09:48:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And I appreciate, councilman

09:48:41 Dingfelder, what you said, because I think this council

09:48:44 has been very sensitive to the needs of all parties

09:48:49 when it comes to affording them due process rights.

09:48:52 And council, now that I have tried to ensure that the

09:48:56 process is fair, and sometimes even when the meeting

09:48:59 goes long, and sometimes when it may seem difficult to

09:49:03 want to do it, this council recognizes the necessity of

09:49:06 ensuring that the process is fair.

09:49:08 And when the request is made for more time, council




09:49:14 generally gives good consideration to the parties.

09:49:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But right now only the petitioner

09:49:20 has the right to do that.

09:49:21 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.

09:49:22 No, actually, the rule which I read to you is based on

09:49:25 request for additional time may only be granted if the

09:49:28 party making the request -- and I guess what that says

09:49:30 is if you want to recognize, we could change that rule

09:49:34 to be entity or person or whatever.

09:49:36 But when we say party we mean the person up there.

09:49:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I can't remember any time in my

09:49:41 years when any individual has even thought to ask for

09:49:44 that additional time.

09:49:45 On their own.

09:49:49 Until this second I didn't know they were allowed.

09:49:51 So if I didn't know it, council didn't know it --

09:49:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, the rules, by the way, are

09:49:57 available on the city's Web site for all the parties.

09:50:01 And I'm not saying that to be facetious.

09:50:04 I'm just saying for people to know.

09:50:06 One of the keys to success for anybody who makes a

09:50:08 presentation before City Council is to know what the




09:50:11 parameters are.

09:50:13 And, Mr. Dingfelder, my only observation would be, I'm

09:50:17 concerned about the people, not just large equities or

09:50:21 organizations but the people who live right next door,

09:50:24 or the people who live within the 250 feet who do have

09:50:27 a legal standing and do have the notice.

09:50:30 If anybody might be entitled to more time to make their

09:50:34 case, maybe those people as well, rather than -- it's

09:50:38 nice to have the neighborhood organization speak on

09:50:40 your behalf, but they may not.

09:50:42 And the thing is, in fairness, I think that those

09:50:50 people who do have legal standing who may have their

09:50:53 property rights affected also need the opportunity to

09:50:55 have more time and I think council affords them that,

09:50:57 and it may be a fact that they don't know it.

09:51:01 But again my point is that to take more time doesn't

09:51:04 necessarily do anything unless that time is well spent

09:51:07 to afford --

09:51:14 >>GWEN MILLER: But on occasions we have had people in

09:51:17 the public ask speaking, can I have a minute or two

09:51:20 minutes?

09:51:20 And we have granted that.




09:51:21 So I don't think we need to change it to ten minutes,

09:51:24 because ten minutes is a long time.

09:51:26 If you keep talking, you are going to repeat yourself

09:51:28 and you are going to be saying the same thing.

09:51:30 But if you are speaking and you have something else I

09:51:32 need to say, and we give them the permission to speak,

09:51:35 one minute, two minutes, I think that is all we need.

09:51:39 Because like you say, ten minutes.

09:51:41 And if we have 30 people who want to be speak ten

09:51:43 minutes.

09:51:46 It might be requested.

09:51:48 You don't know if 30 people might say, we I want 10

09:51:52 minutes.

09:51:52 That's a long time.

09:51:53 But if they ask for more when they are speaking and we

09:51:57 always do grant it why can't we grant it?

09:52:01 >>MARY MULHERN: That's what I was going to say except

09:52:03 my recollection is oftentimes we are asked, but I think

09:52:06 we generally often get guidance from legal telling us,

09:52:11 you know, explaining to us what you have just been

09:52:14 saying about whether people have standing, and who

09:52:18 should be afforded due process.




09:52:20 So I think that has come up many times.

09:52:22 But my recollection is that usually we don't -- a lot

09:52:28 of times we -- most of the time we don't grant it

09:52:31 because of the fact that of what everything that Mr.

09:52:34 Shelby just explained to us.

09:52:35 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: If I may.

09:52:40 Chip Fletcher, city attorney.

09:52:42 If you were to afford everyone that came up ten minutes

09:52:44 you would be here is a very long time.

09:52:47 >> Sure will.

09:52:48 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: So I think if you all were to ask

09:52:52 us to draft something or what we would recommend if Mr.

09:52:56 Shelby would put it into your procedures would be for

09:52:58 an organized opposition group to receive the extra

09:53:01 time.

09:53:03 There are jurisdictions that set out a certain amount

09:53:05 of time total for opposition testimony in which case

09:53:10 all these people that you are describing that might

09:53:12 have a concern about a project have to figure out how

09:53:15 to come together and coordinate and collaborate their

09:53:17 presentation within the set amount of time.

09:53:22 I don't hear that's what you all are looking for, but




09:53:25 that is one method that is often used.

09:53:29 What perhaps we could look at as a hybrid where an

09:53:33 organized opposition group like the neighborhood

09:53:35 association or some other group with standing could ask

09:53:38 for and receive the ten minutes to put on a cohesive

09:53:43 presentation over that period of time, and then members

09:53:45 of the public would still have their three minutes.

09:53:49 That would be an option that I think would meet the due

09:53:52 process requirements.

09:53:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The other thing I would be concerned

09:53:56 about following up, and I understand there are

09:53:58 jurisdictions who do this, to allow 15 minutes for the

09:54:01 opposition, the question is what you say to the next

09:54:04 door neighbor who lives immediately adjacent and is

09:54:08 there at the 16th minute and doesn't have the

09:54:12 opportunity to speak?

09:54:13 Do you say, sorry, your time is up?

09:54:18 I think that raises due process issues.

09:54:20 And I think in reality what council would do then is to

09:54:22 give that person the opportunity to speak.

09:54:24 So even when you do have these imposed things upon it,

09:54:29 you still have to come up with people's due process




09:54:34 rights.

09:54:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.

09:54:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm sorry, I was in the back trying

09:54:39 to work out a very difficult situation where people are

09:54:42 getting cited for nonconforming use on buildings, and

09:54:46 even though they are nonconforming and you tear down

09:54:50 something that you know is nonconforming so I have been

09:54:53 working on that.

09:54:54 That's another issue.

09:54:55 Are we perfect in this system?

09:54:56 No.

09:54:59 But then what is perfect?

09:55:00 I don't think you have a perfect answer.

09:55:03 When you have a lot of times, 15 minutes presentation,

09:55:08 and that means 15 minutes to the petitioner, whoever

09:55:10 the petitioner may be, who is paying to come before

09:55:14 this board?

09:55:17 Maybe.

09:55:17 I guess everybody pays.

09:55:19 And then they have -- and that includes not only the

09:55:24 presenter but also the experts witnesses.

09:55:27 And then at the end they have five minutes to close.




09:55:32 There is no saying in the rules that I know of that 20

09:55:35 people from a street organization, neighborhood

09:55:39 organization, any opposition can come and speak.

09:55:42 We do not shut them out.

09:55:46 The only time that we have a 30-minute session is in

09:55:49 the mornings when we have council, and you have 30

09:55:53 minutes.

09:55:53 And if there's 40 people times three, that doesn't

09:55:57 equate to 30 minutes.

09:55:58 So even then we cut down the minutes at the end and we

09:56:01 try to listen to all of them.

09:56:02 So what we are doing -- when we are doing these things,

09:56:06 the neighborhood association, people in the block,

09:56:11 regardless if they belong to an organized group or not,

09:56:15 the due process is given.

09:56:17 But when you start saying you are only going to have

09:56:20 15, 10, and this and the other, the opposition is going

09:56:26 to be much greater than what we have today.

09:56:28 Because like you said, what happens in the one in the

09:56:32 16th minute?

09:56:32 What if an organization comes and speaks on the issue,

09:56:35 but I'm the next door neighbor, and you say, sorry,




09:56:38 time is up.

09:56:39 But I'm the most affected neighbor because I live next

09:56:42 door, and I don't get a say?

09:56:43 Is that what we are saying?

09:56:45 I don't think that works.

09:56:47 We have open hearings and closed hearings, and someone

09:56:52 said, I haven't spoken.

09:56:54 Guess what we do.

09:56:55 In the past majority of the times we reopen the hearing

09:56:58 and we take that testimony in.

09:57:00 So I think as a gamut, like I said before, are we

09:57:07 perfect?

09:57:08 No.

09:57:08 But I think that what we have has certainly been

09:57:11 working to the greater majority of the times.

09:57:13 And in order to change this, you might be asking for a

09:57:17 lot more problems than what you think we are solving.

09:57:21 Thank you, Madam Chair.

09:57:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to the public.

09:57:23 Anyone in the public who would like to speak may come

09:57:27 up and speak.

09:57:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You have ten minutes.




09:57:31 Only three.

09:57:32 [ Laughter ]

09:57:33 >> Randy Barron, president of T.H.A.N.

09:57:36 This is an issue that's come before T.H.A.N. repeatedly

09:57:39 over the years, as neighborhood organizations and

09:57:41 association versus become more sophisticated in

09:57:43 responding to zoning requests and other types of

09:57:47 petitions, we understand that the purpose is to make

09:57:50 sure that council is as well informed as possible when

09:57:53 they make that decision.

09:57:55 Many times, what associations do is they do the

09:57:57 research, as Mr. Dingfelder and Ms. Saul-Sena

09:58:02 suggested.

09:58:03 We go out and make presentations.

09:58:05 I have been involved in case where is we come with

09:58:08 books, have written briefs.

09:58:09 We have combined what we have researched in

09:58:16 jurisdictions.

09:58:16 The purpose of all of this is to make sure that council

09:58:19 can make a well informed decision.

09:58:20 Many times those kinds of presentations will exceed

09:58:24 three minutes.




09:58:25 And in my experience, when we have asked for additional

09:58:28 time, usually it's because we are trying to finish a

09:58:30 thought, and the chair has been kind enough to give us

09:58:33 an extra 30 seconds or a minute.

09:58:35 But sometimes an extra 30 seconds or minutes is not

09:58:37 going to do it.

09:58:38 We are trying to make a cohesive presentation that is

09:58:43 best served by having one person give it.

09:58:47 Neighborhood associations represent a lot of people.

09:58:48 Many of those people are inexperienced when they

09:58:50 present before council.

09:58:51 Sometimes they are terrified when they present before

09:58:53 council.

09:58:54 And unfortunately sometimes they don't express their

09:58:56 thoughts in the most articulate fashion.

09:59:00 But people who are experienced in doing this who come

09:59:04 before you on a repeated basis and know what the

09:59:07 requirements are, we are not coming up here saying we

09:59:09 had a vote and 200 people said they are Moved.

09:59:13 If that were the case we wouldn't need ten minutes.

09:59:15 We would need 30 seconds to tell you that.

09:59:17 What we need is the opportunity in certain cases, not




09:59:20 all cases, because this doesn't happen a lot, it

09:59:23 happens on big rezonings or things of that nature,

09:59:27 where you have very sophisticated petitioners.

09:59:29 Who spent lots and lots of money and lots and lots of

09:59:32 time to put together a presentation to try to persuade

09:59:35 you to grant a rezoning.

09:59:36 A rezoning that could impact the immediate neighborhood

09:59:40 in all sorts of ways, in ways that they are not going

09:59:43 to tell you in, ways that we would like to tell you.

09:59:46 And we want that opportunity to be able to do that on

09:59:49 those occasions.

09:59:51 Let me make it clear we are not advocating for a

09:59:53 certain time of opposition for everybody.

09:59:55 This 15-minute cut-off is something that T.H.A.N. would

09:59:58 vehemently oppose.

09:59:59 We think that everyone should have an opportunity.

10:00:01 But we also think that neighborhood associations, if

10:00:03 given a little bit of extra time, maybe up to ten

10:00:07 minutes -- and this can be worked out prior -- and we

10:00:10 will need to know prior because we need to make the

10:00:12 presentation.

10:00:12 We need to be able to plan the presentation.




10:00:15 But we can also save you a lot of time for speaking, by

10:00:17 speaking for a lot of people who aren't then going to

10:00:20 come up and be 10, 20, 15 people taking the three

10:00:23 minutes.

10:00:24 This can actually be time effective for council, and

10:00:27 also to make sure that council is better educate on the

10:00:29 issues.

10:00:30 So I hope you consider this.

10:00:33 And if you have any questions I'm available.

10:00:35 Thank you.

10:00:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.

10:00:40 >> Spencer Kass representing Virginia park neighborhood

10:00:43 association.

10:00:44 I would like to offer a compromise that I know isn't

10:00:47 going to delight the neighborhoods and won't delight

10:00:49 anybody else, but let's see if this works.

10:00:53 If a case is continued, I think -- and it's continued

10:00:58 because of the petitioner requesting a continuance, I

10:01:00 think in those cases the associations at the next

10:01:03 hearing should have an additional three minutes for

10:01:05 each time it's continued.

10:01:10 As Mr. Shelby point out if you come here with a group




10:01:12 of people and they can give you their one minute.

10:01:14 Here is the problem.

10:01:15 I come down here with 20 people.

10:01:17 Somebody asks for a continuance.

10:01:20 The next time I come back we all know I am going to

10:01:21 have less people.

10:01:22 People get tired, they get frustrated.

10:01:24 So I think what's fair is City Council doesn't

10:01:29 necessarily want to continue, because you continue five

10:01:31 times and each time you know you are making your

10:01:34 schedule longer.

10:01:35 The petitioners won't rush to continue things because

10:01:37 every time they know they request a continuance that

10:01:39 will add an additional three minutes of time to the

10:01:41 opposition.

10:01:42 And I think ultimately, then the time that ordinarily

10:01:47 somebody might have given to them can be made up for.

10:01:50 So I think that's a fair compromise.

10:01:52 And I think it's very important that everybody

10:01:54 understand there should be a full and complete

10:01:57 opportunity for everybody to be heard on everything,

10:01:59 whether it's a zoning hearing, whether it's 30 minutes




10:02:02 before council starts an item on an agenda, because if

10:02:05 nothing else the neighborhood comes to express

10:02:07 themselves.

10:02:08 They know they have been heard.

10:02:09 The other week it was brought up why do so few people

10:02:12 show up at budget hearings?

10:02:13 That was brought up.

10:02:15 Yet tons of people show up for single zoning.

10:02:17 It's because they honestly feel three minutes at 5:30,

10:02:20 nobody listens to them, nobody cares.

10:02:23 I know that you all care.

10:02:24 But that's the impression that when people are up here

10:02:27 and they are being rushed quickly in three minutes,

10:02:30 they just can't keep up with it.

10:02:32 So I think as a compromise, that might work as a

10:02:34 compromise to make everybody happy.

10:02:38 Thank you.

10:02:38 >> My name is Sue Lyon.

10:02:48 I have been coming before this council -- a lot of you

10:02:51 weren't even born.

10:02:54 And this is the first time I have ever heard that the

10:02:56 opposition has any extra time.




10:03:02 I don't think Charlie knew it.

10:03:03 I don't think Linda new it.

10:03:04 And we have been around a long time.

10:03:06 So if we could ahead of time talk to the clerk or talk

10:03:10 to Reverend Scott and say we have a large presentation,

10:03:14 we would like to have the ten minutes, is that possible

10:03:18 under the rules?

10:03:19 Because if we get up here, an Randy talks and Spencer

10:03:25 talks, I talk, we all talk a different language.

10:03:29 And it loses something in the translation.

10:03:33 It's almost like I'm speaking Spanish, because I don't

10:03:37 carry through their lawyer-ESE kind of presentation.

10:03:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If you spoke Spanish, I would

10:03:45 understand you.

10:03:45 >> Oh, boy, do I speak Spanish.

10:03:47 I know all the cuss words.

10:03:49 >> Then I would really understand you.

10:03:51 [ Laughter ]

10:03:52 >> But we are certainly above all not trying to cut out

10:03:58 the next door neighbor.

10:04:00 It's their right.

10:04:01 We have fought for that neighbor's right.




10:04:04 More than anything else we have taught them.

10:04:06 We have drug them here.

10:04:07 We have done everything for the next door neighbor.

10:04:12 It's just to make a more coordinated presentation, that

10:04:18 if there's a time -- and you have seen a lot of times

10:04:22 when we are handed papers off and you finish this and

10:04:25 you finish this, because we don't have the time.

10:04:28 And God love you, I have seen you all expend a lot of

10:04:32 extra time to the petitioner.

10:04:34 And I have been here late at night because the

10:04:37 petitioner gets extra time and has extra questions.

10:04:42 Some of these things are really complicated.

10:04:44 And we have studied them and they say, okay, you have

10:04:46 three minutes.

10:04:47 Well, I have learned to take in three minute bytes.

10:04:52 But if you are going to make a real presentation, you

10:04:55 can't really do it in three minutes.

10:04:58 We either have to split it up, which loses the

10:05:03 continues Newt of the presentation, and that's all we

10:05:06 are asking for, is if we have a good presentation we

10:05:09 would like to be able to present it.

10:05:10 And we thank you for your time.




10:05:23 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Address suite 3700 Bank of America

10:05:27 Plaza.

10:05:29 As I understand the proposal is to allow 15 minutes to

10:05:32 recognize neighborhoods of record -- ten minutes?

10:05:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Ten minutes.

10:05:38 >>> I appreciate that.

10:05:40 This is basically about fairness.

10:05:45 Due process is just another word for fairness.

10:05:47 I'm very comfortable with the ten-minute suggestion and

10:05:51 I'll give you several reasons why.

10:05:54 As a practitioner, I want to avoid any hearing that

10:05:57 gets reversed because someone didn't have enough time.

10:06:00 You never want that.

10:06:02 You don't wants to railroad an approval or railroad a

10:06:06 disapproval.

10:06:06 So time is not an issue to me.

10:06:08 I think what's important is the evidence that's

10:06:10 presented to you here at the podium is competent and

10:06:15 substantial as Mr. Shelby instructed you.

10:06:17 And what we want to the avoid is something that's

10:06:20 repetitive, something that's not relevant, something

10:06:22 that's not competent, not substantial.




10:06:24 It doesn't help anyone in the process.

10:06:26 And what matters really is the weight of what is said

10:06:31 here, you know, from any measure of the spectrum of

10:06:35 what someone speaks to you.

10:06:37 In the final analysis, what is the weight of that

10:06:39 evidence in the final decision?

10:06:41 And that's what the circuit courts look at judicially

10:06:45 and that's what they look at in all the reported cases

10:06:47 on rezoning.

10:06:48 So the time issue really doesn't trouble me.

10:06:50 I would hope that one day we would have neighborhoods

10:06:53 that come in support, and I would love for them to have

10:06:57 ten minutes to demonstrate their support for a project

10:06:59 that I'm presenting.

10:07:05 Stay positive about it because I would love to have ten

10:07:08 minutes of support from a neighborhood.

10:07:09 I think the chair retains the authority at all times to

10:07:12 make sure that no one should be repetitive or out of

10:07:16 order or inflammatory or not helpful to the process.

10:07:20 So I think if we can avoid just conclusory opposition,

10:07:26 I don't want it, when I'm sitting down that doesn't

10:07:29 benefit anybody.




10:07:30 So I'm willing to work with the city attorney's office

10:07:34 and with neighborhoods to craft some form of time that

10:07:38 would give them time to have their say, just as my

10:07:40 clients have their time to have their say.

10:07:43 So I think it would be a good idea.

10:07:46 Thank you for your time.

10:07:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?

10:07:51 Mr. Dingfelder, then Mr. Miranda.

10:07:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Grandoff.

10:07:55 That was very fair of you.

10:08:03 I hope that what Mr. Baron said -- I think it was Mr.

10:08:07 Baron -- and I think it's important, because I have

10:08:10 been on the flip side of this, and as a neighborhood

10:08:13 you do want to prepare your presentation in advance,

10:08:15 you want to know that, okay, we are going to put Randy

10:08:18 up there on behalf of the neighborhood association for

10:08:21 ten minutes, and then blah-blah-blah, everybody else

10:08:24 might speak a minute because Randy has pretty much

10:08:26 given the real meat of the argument and we will just

10:08:29 get up there and bolster it but you want to come up and

10:08:31 Virginia a strategy.

10:08:32 As a result, they do need to know in advance what the




10:08:35 game rules are going to be as compared to waiting till

10:08:38 the matter is called up and then they have to start

10:08:41 begging for council or the chair for additional time.

10:08:43 So what I was thinking was if we are going to go down

10:08:46 this route, which I think is very reasonable, Mr.

10:08:49 Shelby, again not as a matter of right but as a matter

10:08:52 of discretion, that maybe the discretion could lie in

10:08:55 the chair.

10:08:56 Maybe we would include in the rules that they would ask

10:08:59 a week before the hearing to the chair, and the chair

10:09:02 would get back to them in a reasonable amount of time,

10:09:05 now, X number of days before the hearing, and then that

10:09:09 could be revisited by council if the chair turned them

10:09:14 down or something like that.

10:09:15 I think most chairs -- I don't think most neighborhood

10:09:19 associations are going to abuse it.

10:09:20 I think most chairs would grant it.

10:09:23 If it's a big case, and if it's necessary.

10:09:27 So that's number one.

10:09:27 Number two is, if our local rules, our council rules,

10:09:32 don't include it right now, which I don't think they

10:09:34 do, I think we should have a little primmer in there on




10:09:38 quasi-judicial evidence.

10:09:40 In other words, you should do the research, pass it

10:09:45 around, obviously with Mr. Fletcher and other lawyers,

10:09:49 but we should have a little provision in there that

10:09:51 says quasi-judicial hearings are governed by the rules,

10:09:55 you know, the following rules, and the evidence

10:09:58 presented should be competent, substantial, and

10:10:02 competent, substantial evidence is X, Y and Z.

10:10:05 And that way, and just kind of as guidance.

10:10:08 This is guidance to the community.

10:10:10 Because there's a lot of people out there who know

10:10:12 that, and who do that.

10:10:13 And then there's a lot of newcomers who don't.

10:10:16 So at least, you know, maybe people -- maybe it's on

10:10:21 some kind of handout that we give, or I don't know, the

10:10:24 sign-in sheet or something like that, so that way we

10:10:27 are pushing people in that direction.

10:10:30 So those are my thoughts.

10:10:33 I think we have had a positive discussion.

10:10:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.

10:10:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I believe we have.

10:10:42 However, I believe the chair should be a responsible




10:10:44 individual to do that, to guide the both sides, both

10:10:50 parties.

10:10:52 But there's a lot more meeting.

10:10:55 If one individual within one organization -- I am not

10:10:57 going to mention the organization because there's

10:10:58 hundreds of them -- when a homeowners association will

10:11:03 have ten minutes, my question to myself is, what about

10:11:07 another member of the organization who may not have the

10:11:09 same opinion as the majority of the organization?

10:11:14 What are they going to be allowed, within the

10:11:16 organization?

10:11:17 So these are the things that I'm wrestling with inside.

10:11:22 I don't care if it's 10 minutes or 20 minutes.

10:11:24 When I come to a night meeting I don't plan to leave

10:11:27 before 11.

10:11:28 So what I'm saying is, where is the line?

10:11:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The question ultimately, Mr. Miranda,

10:11:38 is one that had you answer every time you have a

10:11:39 hearing, is fairness.

10:11:41 What is fair?

10:11:42 And this council wrestles with that and struggles with

10:11:47 that and makes sure that every decision rests upon a




10:11:50 fair process.

10:11:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So then are we saying if -- and I am

10:11:54 not opposing ten minutes.

10:11:57 But if there's 20 and the same organization says, I

10:12:01 want to be heard, whatever the organization is, what do

10:12:02 you do then?

10:12:05 Say you have a caucus and you say you can't be heard

10:12:08 because the organization spoke for you?

10:12:09 I don't think so.

10:12:10 >> They have three minutes under the rules that they

10:12:12 have now.

10:12:14 And just whether it's a designated organization, if

10:12:20 they have seven people that comes with them that makes

10:12:22 them organized in some fashion, if they have ten

10:12:24 minutes they still have the form.

10:12:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: And let me put something else in

10:12:30 the record to clear some these things up.

10:12:31 For or against any subject matter on anyone that's a

10:12:35 hot button issue.

10:12:37 If we council members aren't informed there's something

10:12:41 wrong because you get phone calls, e-mails, faxes till

10:12:47 they stack up high.




10:12:48 And so on both sides, before you sit down, we all know

10:12:52 or should know how the feeling is of whatever it is

10:13:00 that they are trying to change, because it happens, in

10:13:01 my office -- and I'm sure happens in the rest of the

10:13:03 other six members' offices.

10:13:04 It's not one individual saying one fax or one phone

10:13:08 call.

10:13:09 Sometimes it's hundreds of them.

10:13:13 And that's how I view it.

10:13:15 Thank you.

10:13:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.

10:13:18 I think what we are trying to do today is all about

10:13:20 fairness.

10:13:21 And the specific request that I passed out to everybody

10:13:25 from T.H.A.N. was the registered neighborhood

10:13:29 organization, very specific, that that official

10:13:34 organization has a request for ten minutes.

10:13:39 I was very surprised today to hear that the ability to

10:13:42 request that additional time is currently available to

10:13:46 neighborhoods.

10:13:47 I have certainly been in these meetings since forever,

10:13:50 and I have never been aware of that before, ever, ever,




10:13:53 ever.

10:13:53 So while it might have been in the rules, none of us

10:13:57 were aware of it so nobody has ever used it.

10:14:00 I don't know dab that we can -- what I would like to do

10:14:04 today is make a motion to ask our attorney working with

10:14:09 the city attorney to develop a rule that allows a

10:14:13 neighborhood organization to make the request of ten

10:14:17 minutes as a bloc to present the neighborhood -- or I

10:14:22 think Chip said it shouldn't be just the neighborhood

10:14:25 organization.

10:14:25 What was your phrase?

10:14:29 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: City attorney.

10:14:30 We need to spend some time on that.

10:14:32 But organized opposition.

10:14:37 We would want to refine that somehow.

10:14:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, my motion would be for you

10:14:41 all to work on the verbiage and then bring it back to

10:14:44 council in 60 days.

10:14:46 Do you think could you do in the 30 days?

10:14:48 You are going to have all this free time because we are

10:14:50 going to be on vacation.

10:14:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Maybe they are going to be on




10:14:54 vacation.

10:14:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's true.

10:14:55 >>> I think Julia might be able to do in the 30 days.

10:14:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Great.

10:14:59 Come back to us in 30 days under committee reports.

10:15:04 I mean staff reports.

10:15:05 Staff reports.

10:15:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, normally, just additionally,

10:15:12 council, things have worked within the City Council's

10:15:16 purview, the rules of procedure, normally that's my

10:15:18 responsibility.

10:15:19 Let me rephrase that.

10:15:20 The City Council's attorney's responsibilities.

10:15:24 I would be happy to work with the legal department but

10:15:26 ultimately it's the City Council's counsel's attorney

10:15:29 to promulgate rules.

10:15:30 >> Can you bring it back in 30 days?

10:15:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Absolutely.

10:15:35 >> And I will certainly work with the legal department,

10:15:38 but under the charter, Mr. Fletcher has the final say

10:15:40 ultimately in what's legal for the city and I'm sure

10:15:43 this will meet with his approval.




10:15:45 That being said, I should also point out, council, I do

10:15:48 like Mr. Dingfelder's suggestion about the primmer on

10:15:53 quasi-judicial hearings because this council has not

10:15:56 yet been confronted since I have been here with a

10:15:59 request by the party on the record to conduct

10:16:02 cross-examination, which courts have said they are as a

10:16:07 right entitled to.

10:16:09 And you have not yet faced that.

10:16:13 Nobody has made that request of council.

10:16:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Never exercised subpoena power

10:16:19 either but sometimes it's tempting.

10:16:22 >>MARY MULHERN: Who has the right to do that?

10:16:24 Just the petitioner or anybody?

10:16:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Anybody who has legal --

10:16:32 >>DAVE TIPPIN: Typically, the case law is where

10:16:34 there's a proffer or presentation to council of expert

10:16:37 testimony or other type of testimony that is subject to

10:16:40 potentially impeachment if somebody were to

10:16:44 cross-examine or question the credentials of the expert

10:16:47 testimony.

10:16:48 So it's not just anybody in the world can cross-examine

10:16:52 anybody, but where it could be relevant to your




10:16:55 decision making there can be.

10:16:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It has to meet the competent test.

10:16:58 It has to be relevant and material.

10:17:00 >>MARY MULHERN: And the courts have said that's

10:17:02 admissible?

10:17:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And the courts have said that's

10:17:04 required.

10:17:05 >> Required.

10:17:06 >> The example might be if someone were to make the

10:17:14 request when an applicant has submitted testimony maybe

10:17:19 from a planner, when the appropriate testimony might be

10:17:22 from a construction engineer, because of their areas of

10:17:26 expertise, that would be the type of case.

10:17:29 Or when opposition, somebody comes up and presents and

10:17:32 says I have done this transportation work for years but

10:17:36 they are not a transportation engineer, there may be a

10:17:40 right to impeach that testimony.

10:17:41 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second on the

10:17:47 floor.

10:17:47 All in favor say Aye.

10:17:49 Nay?

10:17:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I add to that?




10:17:55 I have several motions.

10:17:56 Excuse me, Mr. Miranda.

10:17:58 Mr. Shelby, would you like to explore the possibility

10:18:01 of putting a primmer in as you discussed about what is

10:18:06 competent, substantial evidence encouraging the

10:18:08 community to do that?

10:18:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I think part of council's rules,

10:18:15 council should have not only for the public to know,

10:18:17 but as delineated for council what it has to base its

10:18:21 decision on.

10:18:21 So I think --

10:18:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I will be happy to do that.

10:18:27 I move that you also look into that over the next 30

10:18:29 days.

10:18:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.

10:18:31 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor?

10:18:32 Opposed?

10:18:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.

10:18:36 In order to balance this sheet I think as I recall the

10:18:41 rules council can only speak for five minutes on a

10:18:43 subject matter but can only speak twice on that subject

10:18:45 matter.




10:18:45 Am I correct?

10:18:46 >>GWEN MILLER: We don't go by that rule.

10:18:48 [ Laughter ]

10:18:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: AHHH.

10:18:53 You know, sometimes I throw a curve ball as a

10:18:55 knuckleball.

10:18:57 I'm glad you said normally.

10:18:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Normally, Mr. Miranda that applies to

10:19:02 regular agendaed legislative matters.

10:19:04 Obviously, the rules with regard to fairness and due

10:19:08 process are different with regard to hearings that

10:19:10 involve property rights.

10:19:12 >>

10:19:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So, in other words -- I understand.

10:19:16 In other words, you are elected but you can't have the

10:19:18 same rights.

10:19:20 I understand.

10:19:21 Thank you very much.

10:19:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We go now to item number 5.

10:19:29 TECO conservation task force.

10:19:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Are any task force members here?

10:19:39 Do the task force members know?




10:20:01 >> There was a notice sent yesterday to them.

10:20:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yesterday?

10:20:05 Yesterday?

10:20:10 >> I mailed them to all the task force members.

10:20:12 >> How many task force members are there?

10:20:14 >> 17 or 18.

10:20:15 >> How many are here?

10:20:19 >>THOM SNELLING: Sue Lyon is here.

10:20:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't we reschedule it?

10:20:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is not good.

10:20:27 >>THOM SNELLING: When we made the first presentation to

10:20:28 the mayor all the task force members were in attendance

10:20:30 at that presentation of this document and the document

10:20:33 I am about to give you.

10:20:34 So they have participated in all of the meetings.

10:20:40 When we have the formal presentation to the mayor four

10:20:42 to six weeks ago all the members were there speaking to

10:20:45 the mayor, talking about their recommendations, giving

10:20:47 the mayor her comments on the task force and its

10:20:50 recommendation.

10:20:50 This meeting was just to brief you on just what the

10:20:55 recommendations were.




10:20:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So we have no power?

10:21:01 >>CHAIRMAN: The motion was made -- was the motion to

10:21:03 have the committee members here?

10:21:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No, but I think it was substantive

10:21:09 that numbers would be.

10:21:12 >>THOM SNELLING: The presentation we have about what

10:21:13 was going to happen --

10:21:15 >>CHAIRMAN: The motion was to give council a

10:21:17 presentation, not the task force members.

10:21:20 So Mr. Snelling did not know that he was supposed to

10:21:21 have the task force members because you didn't put that

10:21:24 in your motion.

10:21:24 You said a presentation to council.

10:21:27 So that's what he's doing.

10:21:29 Giving us a presentation.

10:21:30 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to find out.

10:21:32 I think we need to hear from you.

10:21:36 I want to find out, though, what you are presenting.

10:21:38 Are you just presenting the findings of the task force?

10:21:43 >>THOM SNELLING: Yes, ma'am.

10:21:43 >>MARY MULHERN: Because we have already seen that.

10:21:45 But if you can go through it quickly.




10:21:48 But I think we are going to hear from TECO, which would

10:21:50 be --

10:21:52 >> Yes, tell us about the programs that they have

10:21:54 already started to implement from the task force

10:21:56 recommendations as well as other overall kinds of

10:22:00 things.

10:22:01 And we had --

10:22:05 >>MARY MULHERN: I don't know how we worded the motion,

10:22:06 which I guess probably Linda made.

10:22:08 I don't know who made it.

10:22:14 I made the motion and Linda seconded it.

10:22:16 But my thought was that we were going to hear -- well,

10:22:24 I don't know that we all have, but I have seen this and

10:22:26 looked over it and attended the first meeting with the

10:22:28 task force and the mayor's office.

10:22:31 What I want to hear from, city staff, from the mayor,

10:22:36 is what she's going to do with regard to these

10:22:38 recommendations.

10:22:39 Are you going to tell us that today?

10:22:42 >>THOM SNELLING: TECO is here to talk about some of the

10:22:44 items that they have already started working on based

10:22:45 on some of the recommendations that had happened.




10:22:50 A point by point presentation of what TECO had intended

10:22:51 to do and what they intend to participate in

10:22:57 implementing based on the recommendations was given to

10:22:59 the mayor in a presentation with the mayor that we have

10:23:01 had with the TECO -- the members of TECO, the

10:23:05 members -- the folks from TECO that are here today.

10:23:10 We have that presentation to the mayor outlining step

10:23:13 by step what kinds of things they were going to bring

10:23:15 to the table in terms of education.

10:23:16 >>MARY MULHERN: I want to nobody what the mayor is

10:23:18 going to bring to the table.

10:23:19 I think TECO will tell us what they are doing.

10:23:22 But part of this was the city.

10:23:25 It was to make recommendations for what the city and

10:23:28 teak ooh could do.

10:23:30 And that's what we need to hear.

10:23:33 It doesn't sound like you have that today so we are

10:23:35 going to have to --

10:23:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's hear --

10:23:39 >>MARY MULHERN: We'll have to put that on the agenda

10:23:40 after we here.

10:23:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.




10:23:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Tom, when did you invite TECO?

10:23:50 >>THOM SNELLING: After the mayor's meeting, we were

10:23:51 going to decide when it showed up on the agenda.

10:23:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So a couple of weeks ago?

10:23:57 >>THOM SNELLING: Yes.

10:23:58 There was not any --

10:24:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let me finish, Tom.

10:24:02 I think what you said before was the entire task force

10:24:05 was there to present it to the mayor and they had a

10:24:08 good discussion and they all spoke freely.

10:24:10 And the mayor commented back, and they had a good

10:24:13 discussion.

10:24:13 Sounds like a great time was had by all.

10:24:16 But the point is, we would like the same kind of

10:24:19 discussion.

10:24:20 That's why we hold these workshops.

10:24:24 You know, the mayor picked some great people on all

10:24:26 sides of this issue.

10:24:30 And we would love to see all 17 of them out there.

10:24:33 Now, there was some miscommunication.

10:24:37 >>THOM SNELLING: That would be my fault.

10:24:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's not what I'm looking for.




10:24:41 There was some miscommunication by council due to --

10:24:45 et cetera, et cetera.

10:24:46 We all apologize for.

10:24:48 That you can see why we are all a little frustrated.

10:24:51 Linda expressed some frustration.

10:24:52 I would love to, after you make your presentation,

10:24:54 after TECO makes its presentation, there are a couple

10:24:58 of very knowledgeable people that we would like to have

10:25:01 that dialogue with.

10:25:02 So, anyway, I just wanted to kind of clarify that's

10:25:07 where the frustration is coming from.

10:25:08 In the meantime let's forward with what we are going to

10:25:10 do today and maybe we'll continue it for some more

10:25:12 discussion later.

10:25:15 >>THOM SNELLING: And I can certainly do that.

10:25:16 What we have today is the PowerPoint that I have is

10:25:21 very quickly going over these items again, and then

10:25:23 TECO is going to talk about some of the specific

10:25:26 programs that they are going to work on as a result of

10:25:28 some of the input that came from the task force.

10:25:32 If you have already had this, going through the entire

10:25:36 report again, I can go through it very quickly and you




10:25:38 have got that.

10:25:39 It would almost be redundant.

10:25:41 If you want to go straight to what TECO wants to talk

10:25:44 about we can do that and then I can answer questions

10:25:48 afterwards.

10:25:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's hear from TECO.

10:25:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We all got the written report

10:25:53 months ago.

10:25:55 >>THOM SNELLING: Then can I get the second PowerPoint

10:25:57 please?

10:25:58 And the president of TECO is here to talk to you and I

10:26:03 have a handout for you on that.

10:26:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Before you start let me read the motion

10:27:01 so we have a clear understanding so everybody will know

10:27:04 what we asked for.

10:27:05 The motion is that council have a workshop on June 17,

10:27:10 2010, to discuss the recommendations of the mayor's

10:27:12 citizen TECO energy conservation task force.

10:27:15 There's nothing about inviting anybody here.

10:27:17 This is the motion made by Ms. Mulhern, seconded by Ms.

10:27:23 Saul-Sena.

10:27:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I thought a work session was --




10:27:27 >>GWEN MILLER: We always say bring in so-and-so, bring

10:27:30 in this person.

10:27:30 >> We don't have the verbatim and we don't have the

10:27:33 recording so let's not argue about it.

10:27:35 >>GWEN MILLER: The next time make sure you make it

10:27:38 clear.

10:27:45 >> Gillette, 702 North Franklin Street.

10:27:47 Council members, thank you for giving us a few minutes

10:27:49 today to talk to you about our interaction was the

10:27:51 mayor's conservation task force.

10:27:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: By the way, thank you for coming.

10:27:56 We appreciate you being here.

10:27:58 >> Glad to be here.

10:27:59 Just a little bit of background.

10:28:00 I have been with TECO for 29 years, graduated

10:28:03 Chamberlain high school and the University of South

10:28:04 Florida, for many years was Teco's chief financial

10:28:08 officer, and in August of last year assumed these

10:28:11 duties.

10:28:11 With me today from Tampa Electric are Stephani Agliano

10:28:16 and Andrick Frazier who you know from our community

10:28:20 relations area.




10:28:21 As you know, Stephani was our representative on the

10:28:24 mayor's conservation task force

10:28:29 Also with us is Howard Bryant from the conservation, of

10:28:33 our regulatory affairs department and Rick MORERA of

10:28:38 media public relations.

10:28:39 We have been very happy to participate in the mayor's

10:28:41 conservation task force.

10:28:44 We appreciate the interest that you have in these

10:28:47 topics and we appreciate the interest and the knowledge

10:28:49 that the mayor and the task force and the city staff

10:28:54 have demonstrated in these areas of energy conservation

10:28:57 and sustainability through the task force process.

10:29:00 We have effectively had two activities ongoing in

10:29:05 parallel during the time that the mayor's conservation

10:29:07 task force was moving forward.

10:29:10 The utilities in Florida including Tampa Electric have

10:29:14 been engaged in their once every favor-year update for

10:29:19 their conservation goals and programs before the

10:29:21 Florida Public Service Commission under the Florida

10:29:23 energy efficiency and conservation act, and a week

10:29:29 after the recommendations of the task force were

10:29:32 finalized in March, Tampa Electric filed enhanced




10:29:36 conservation programs and some new programs with the

10:29:41 Florida Public Service Commission for approval.

10:29:44 In April, people's gas also made a similar filing.

10:29:49 And as you can see on this slide that's before you,

10:29:52 both Tampa Electric and peoples made some significant

10:29:55 enhancements to their existing programs and proposed

10:29:57 some new programs.

10:30:01 Specifically in Tampa Electric's case, Tampa Electric

10:30:03 for many years has had 29 existing conservation

10:30:05 programs.

10:30:07 We moved that in this proposal to the Florida

10:30:11 commission to 39 programs with three brand new

10:30:15 renewable energy programs, seven new conservation

10:30:17 programs, and we have enhanced the incentives

10:30:20 associated with 19 of our existing programs as well.

10:30:26 In people's gas case, we have upgraded the incentives

10:30:30 associated with three of their eight existing

10:30:32 conservation programs.

10:30:34 Both before and after the recent filings, with the

10:30:39 Florida Public Service Commission, we have been

10:30:41 offering and will be offering more conservation

10:30:44 programs than any other investor-owned utility in this




10:30:48 state.

10:30:48 We are also the only investor-owned utility that has

10:30:51 proposed renewable energy programs as part of our

10:30:55 conservation measures.

10:30:57 These programs will go before the Florida Public

10:30:58 Service Commission on August 3rd and if approved

10:31:01 will be implemented in October.

10:31:03 The timing of these parallel efforts and the mayor's

10:31:06 task force and our conservation programming, filings,

10:31:14 has been very positive for us at TECO, and if allowed,

10:31:17 Tampa Electric and peoples gas to get some great input

10:31:21 and feedback on the interest and concerns of the

10:31:24 community.

10:31:26 While we were in the process of updating our existing

10:31:29 programs and developing new programs.

10:31:31 We thank the mayor, the City Council, the task force,

10:31:34 and the city staff for the great opportunity the tasks

10:31:38 force process provided for community input.

10:31:41 It was a great opportunity for us to learn some of the

10:31:43 things that the city is doing both in the way of codes

10:31:48 and standards and also some of the efficiency measures

10:31:51 that the city is taken on at their own facilities.




10:31:55 There are an increasing numbers of key decisions that

10:31:58 we collectively need to be making.

10:32:00 This is an extremely important time in the nation,

10:32:05 state's and community's history for dialogue between

10:32:07 utility service providers and communities.

10:32:11 Important questions need to be answered like are we

10:32:14 willing to pay more for our electricity in order to

10:32:16 eliminate some of the generation with fossil fuels?

10:32:19 And they can't be answered by utilities alone.

10:32:22 They have to be answered by the community and elected

10:32:25 officials.

10:32:25 And just as a little anecdote, I was at an industry

10:32:35 conference this week, and a representative from the

10:32:37 Edison electric institute, who is the industry trade

10:32:41 organization that represents our industry in

10:32:43 Washington, said that of the achievements that have

10:32:45 been made in the area of conservation nationwide, about

10:32:50 50% of those achievements have come through codes ands

10:32:55 standards, and about 50% have come through voluntary

10:32:58 incentive-based programs like the ones that we offer.

10:33:02 We offer at Tampa Electric and peoples gas.

10:33:04 So all of you are local government officials have made




10:33:09 some real strides in the areas of codes and standards.

10:33:12 And I think we have made some real strides in the areas

10:33:14 of offering voluntary conservation programs.

10:33:18 But I think we have learned through the task force

10:33:21 effort that we will be best if we are working together

10:33:25 and talking about how we can do this together, because

10:33:28 it does take both.

10:33:30 So we have been especially pleased to be working with

10:33:33 the task force.

10:33:35 I want to change slides here.

10:33:37 He the mayor's task force, and you know came up with 20

10:33:49 specific recommendations in its work effort.

10:33:52 And we have been very pleased to have had the

10:33:54 opportunity to work with city staff both before and

10:33:57 after the development of the recommendation on things

10:34:00 that we can do on the recommendations in the way of

10:34:06 supporting or collaborating actions on those

10:34:09 recommendations.

10:34:10 And, in fact, we have identified things that we can do

10:34:14 at TECO for each one of the 20 recommendations that the

10:34:19 task force has come up with.

10:34:21 And this slide that's before you just shows a few




10:34:24 examples of the things that we are doing, or will do in

10:34:27 the future in collaborative fashion with the task force

10:34:34 and we plan to do these things with our existing newly

10:34:38 proposed conservation programs, so provided the Florida

10:34:44 commission approves our conservation programs we will

10:34:46 have funding to do the things that you see on the

10:34:48 right.

10:34:52 We found great alignment with the increased incentives

10:34:55 for conservation and energy efficiency, and as a result

10:34:58 we designed enhancements to our programs and submitted

10:35:01 new programs for the commission that with the benefit

10:35:05 of the task force's input.

10:35:07 In other words, the input of the task force was used

10:35:12 directly in the development of some of the programs

10:35:14 that you see in the examples on the right.

10:35:17 And you have been handed a detailed summary of all of

10:35:22 the 39 programs that we filed with the Public Service

10:35:24 Commission.

10:35:25 Just a little bit on the specifics of this slide.

10:35:29 You can see that, for example, we have identified three

10:35:32 areas of collaboration with the task force here,

10:35:36 renewable energy, enhanced low income weatherization




10:35:40 and energy education, and again these are just some

10:35:43 examples.

10:35:43 Under renewable energy the task force recommended

10:35:46 encouraging both solar, thermal, water heating and

10:35:50 solar programs for residential and commerce customers.

10:35:56 And in our March filing on our new conservation

10:35:58 programs, under FECA, we included a solar water heating

10:36:02 program that provides incentives up to $1,000 for

10:36:07 customers in the form of a rebate.

10:36:09 In addition, we proposed that a brand new residential

10:36:13 commercial program that will provide $2 per Watt

10:36:19 instead of for installation of a solar tank array up to

10:36:24 a $20,000 rebate.

10:36:26 We also proposed to partner with the Florida energy

10:36:30 center on the installation of several 10-kilowatt

10:36:34 portable tank arrays with battery backup at schools

10:36:38 throughout our area that are used as emergency shelters

10:36:41 coupled with an educational component for teachers and

10:36:44 students.

10:36:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you have a cap on the rebates?

10:36:48 >> Yes.

10:36:49 The cap on the tank is $20,000.




10:36:56 >> Community cap.

10:37:00 >> Let me check to be sure.

10:37:06 1.5 million per year, I'm advised.

10:37:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I had a feeling.

10:37:12 We'll see how that goes.

10:37:13 >> In the area of enhanced low-income weatherization

10:37:16 the task force recommended expansion of our current

10:37:18 program, and also recommended that we develop a

10:37:21 neighborhood energy audit weatherization roll-out

10:37:25 program.

10:37:26 And in response we proposed expansion of our current

10:37:29 low-income weatherization program to include

10:37:33 prestandardized deducting, duct repair, as well as

10:37:42 fluorescent light bulbs.

10:37:42 In addition we enhanced our weatherization program on a

10:37:47 neighborhood basis such that it was designed for

10:37:49 neighborhoods.

10:37:50 And this means instead of qualifying individual homes,

10:37:54 we requested the ability to qualify whole neighborhoods

10:37:58 using census or city economic data.

10:38:02 The last example is energy education.

10:38:05 The task force recommended that we partner with the




10:38:08 city in efforts to expand our community education

10:38:11 programs and gain greater participation in our

10:38:15 conservation programs.

10:38:17 And based on of that we plan to work very closely with

10:38:20 the city on such things as city TV programming geared

10:38:25 towards conservation and sustainability, and renewable

10:38:29 energy.

10:38:29 And we are looking to link the city and the TECO Web

10:38:33 sites as well.

10:38:36 On our Web site we have things like an energy

10:38:38 calculator, rebate information, energy tips, and we are

10:38:42 even working on and looking to roll out soon a carbon

10:38:46 footprint calculator as well.

10:38:50 So we are making a lot of progress on the education

10:38:53 front as well.

10:38:54 Again, these are just examples of the areas where we

10:38:58 received input from the task force and directly put it

10:39:01 to work in the development of our programs.

10:39:04 Beginning to conclude now a little bit, we are very

10:39:07 proud of our part in the Tampa community, the city,

10:39:13 Tampa Electric and peoples gas have a great deal of

10:39:15 common interest.




10:39:17 We are joined diagnose in many ways, especially in the

10:39:19 fact that we provide critical services to our

10:39:23 community.

10:39:24 At Tampa Electric we provide service to some 17

10:39:26 different communities in west central Florida, and

10:39:30 people's gas we serve 200 communities in 37 counties in

10:39:33 Florida.

10:39:35 But Tampa is very important to us.

10:39:37 It's our home.

10:39:39 And it's where we have been offering utility services

10:39:41 for 110 years at Tampa Electric and 115 years at

10:39:46 people's gas.

10:39:47 And we've the task force work and recommendations and

10:39:51 our newly updated conservation programs, I think we

10:39:55 have accomplished a great deal together.

10:39:59 Have we captured everything that we can be doing

10:40:02 together in the future?

10:40:03 I would say probably or most certainly not.

10:40:09 Our local economy is changing.

10:40:11 The energy business is changing very rapidly as well.

10:40:14 And there will be much more that we can do, I think,

10:40:18 together in the future than what we presented today.




10:40:21 In fact, just last week, when we were meeting with the

10:40:23 mayor, we generated several more ideas on things that

10:40:26 we might do together.

10:40:28 These ideas included doing even more than we discussed

10:40:31 dab to work with the schools to enhance energy

10:40:34 education, and also doing energy audits on homes that

10:40:43 we are painting and "Paint Your Heart Out."

10:40:45 In addition, we are very interested to talk to the city

10:40:48 more in the future about what we are doing in other

10:40:51 communities to convert fleet vehicles to natural gas

10:40:56 burning.

10:40:58 We have had some very successful activities there.

10:41:02 We are interested in all electric and hybrid vehicles.

10:41:06 And we are continuing to work to make our electric grid

10:41:09 smarter, and look at the potential for LED outdoor

10:41:13 lighting as well.

10:41:14 So there's much more than we can do in the future and

10:41:17 we are committed to being the very best partner that we

10:41:19 can with the city.

10:41:23 One last slide I'll show you here.

10:41:26 This is a concept that was the team of our last year's

10:41:32 annual report, and it explains the spirit in which we




10:41:34 have been working with the task force.

10:41:38 I think this is embodied in the mission for the mayor's

10:41:41 conservation task force as well.

10:41:43 And it illustrates the need for utility service

10:41:45 providers and policymakers to balance completing --

10:41:49 competing priorities in the current and future

10:41:53 provision of utility services.

10:41:54 We call it the three "E" slide.

10:41:58 And it's easy oftentimes as you look at the slide to

10:42:02 kind of meet the needs of two of these three bubbles.

10:42:05 But it's more difficult to balance all of the needs

10:42:08 associated with the three bubbles.

10:42:10 And we look forward to a continuation of our long and

10:42:14 very special relationship with the city and continue

10:42:20 dialogue on our combined efforts to do our very best to

10:42:24 balance all these factors.

10:42:25 Thank you very much for your time.

10:42:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank you for not having

10:42:31 rolling blackouts during the last two weeks of

10:42:33 excruciatingly hot weather.

10:42:35 You have been doing Yeoman's work.

10:42:38 I want to thank you for working with the city.




10:42:39 I feel that what's before us is very admirable in its

10:42:45 intent.

10:42:46 I'm very eager to see it translated into very specific

10:42:51 numbers of people engaged in the program.

10:42:53 Numbers where people can call and participate.

10:42:57 There are so many more opportunities that we have not

10:43:00 yet scratched the surface in terms of becoming more

10:43:03 independent of the traditional forces of -- sources of

10:43:08 energy.

10:43:08 You know I was very disappointed that we had such a

10:43:11 long franchise agreement, because it is such a dynamic

10:43:14 industry.

10:43:15 We are all so dependent upon being more creative in the

10:43:18 future.

10:43:18 We recognize that we will not continue to grow in the

10:43:22 way that we have because we must conserve, the smartest

10:43:29 most efficient thing we can do is not build additional

10:43:32 power plants.

10:43:32 What we need to do is figure out how to use the

10:43:36 electricity in the most economical and conservative

10:43:38 way.

10:43:39 And that will take a dramatic change.




10:43:41 I see your numbers guy in the audience.

10:43:44 It takes a change of thinking.

10:43:48 Growth has always been Florida's mantra.

10:43:49 And we need to think about things in a very different

10:43:52 way.

10:43:53 Specifically, I'm interested -- and I have this

10:43:57 available for all my council members -- and passing it

10:44:02 to you.

10:44:02 The Florida legislature did something that was actually

10:44:06 very thoughtful and progressive.

10:44:09 They identified the opportunity of creating community

10:44:13 development districts for use by cities or counties so

10:44:17 that individuals could get very low-cost loans to do

10:44:20 energy efficiency, conservation and weatherization.

10:44:24 And I know that Thom Snelling and Bonnie Wise have

10:44:30 spoken to several companies that are offering this sort

10:44:32 of thing.

10:44:33 And I hope that you all are involved in that

10:44:34 conversation.

10:44:36 Are you aware that this went through the state

10:44:38 legislature?

10:44:39 >>> We are.




10:44:40 And we would like to continue the dialogue because I

10:44:42 think it would be a useful adjunct to our voluntary

10:44:46 incentives on our conservation program.

10:44:47 >> To take the onus off of you to administer this, it

10:44:52 would take the onus off the city, it would create

10:44:55 opportunities for the private sector working with

10:44:57 individual citizens or businesses to have low-cost

10:44:59 loans so that we could explore photovoltaic panels for

10:45:07 our homes or businesses which will ultimately --

10:45:10 ultimately mean we have less to purchase from you, and

10:45:13 I think there's a provision you all would buy back

10:45:15 additional, should there be additional energy, that

10:45:18 individual homes create that you buy it back.

10:45:19 >>> That's correct.

10:45:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's really significant.

10:45:23 That's really a game changer.

10:45:25 And it would mean that individuals are increasingly

10:45:28 more independent, which I think would be good for our

10:45:35 community.

10:45:35 I'm glad to hear that you are a part of this.

10:45:38 And I think what we are going to do is Virginia a

10:45:40 follow-up and perhaps we can get a report from you as




10:45:42 well as Bonnie Wise on how we are moving in this

10:45:44 direction.

10:45:44 >>> Very good.

10:45:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If we reduce our energy

10:46:07 requirements, we reduce our dependence on foreign oil,

10:46:12 and there's another critical reason. If we reduce our

10:46:15 energy requirements as a nation, hopefully we can have

10:46:18 less drilling offshore, which is on everybody's mind.

10:46:21 I'm sure there's many reasons.

10:46:23 In addition to the green issues and global warming,

10:46:28 which we could probably debate for many years, but

10:46:32 putting aside those big global issues before, I think a

10:46:44 gentleman in the back confirmed this, $1.5 million.

10:46:48 I have looked into this before.

10:46:50 Typically if we are going to do a house it might be

10:46:52 like 5, 10,000 I think for a house, bigger houses might

10:46:59 be bigger.

10:47:01 So let's say there's $10,000 a house.

10:47:03 I just calculated that's 150 homes.

10:47:06 And it's a small start.

10:47:09 >>> Just for your --

10:47:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just a second.




10:47:15 You guys have a million, probably more than a million

10:47:18 customers, a million people that you service, probably

10:47:21 more than that.

10:47:21 But so 150 homes is not real impressive.

10:47:26 And I have a couple of other questions, Madam Chair.

10:47:28 Go ahead.

10:47:29 >>> We already have close to 100 homes that do have

10:47:35 solar and are netting out.

10:47:38 But to your point, the design of this is such that that

10:47:42 cap, I believe -- and I need to verify this -- is on

10:47:47 the incentives.

10:47:51 We are providing $2 of every Watt of solar capacity

10:47:54 installed to help the homeowner or business buy solar

10:47:59 capacity.

10:48:01 It might go around more.

10:48:02 But I think your point is very well taken.

10:48:04 These are brand new programs.

10:48:08 We don't know how quickly they are going to catch on.

10:48:10 We are hopeful that -- if the Public Service Commission

10:48:22 approves this in the current form that cap will exist.

10:48:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have been in front of PSC a

10:48:33 couple of times.




10:48:34 I know that's a big process.

10:48:40 Like you say, we'll see where that goes.

10:48:43 In terms of all of your -- what is it, 39?

10:48:46 39 things or something like that?

10:48:48 >> Yes, sir.

10:48:48 >> I know some of them are hard to quantify, but are

10:48:55 there quantifiable goals for the company as a whole,

10:48:58 for your customer base?

10:49:01 And you say, okay, right now we have to generate X

10:49:05 amount of power to this entire community, and based

10:49:10 upon these 39 things, by X year, we will reduce that to

10:49:17 such and such.

10:49:19 And I would like your you to fill in those blanks for

10:49:24 me if there's a way to fill that in.

10:49:26 And then, number 2, are there any rewards or penalties

10:49:31 associated if as a company/region we don't meet those

10:49:37 goals?

10:49:38 >> There are specific megawatt and energy reduction

10:49:43 goals, and the Florida energy efficiency and

10:49:48 conservation act has been in place since the mid 80s,

10:49:52 and in 1995 was the first round of goal setting, and

10:49:58 effectively if you look at the amount to date of




10:50:04 megawatts and megawatt hours of energy as a result of

10:50:11 our conservation program I think we can easily say that

10:50:13 we have avoided at least one power plant in our service

10:50:17 territory.

10:50:18 And that is a significant capital cost.

10:50:23 We have probably saved close to half a billion dollars

10:50:29 as a result of being able to avoid, you know, a power

10:50:34 plant.

10:50:34 And so I think the programs have been very effective to

10:50:39 date.

10:50:41 With the enhancements that we are making, I think we

10:50:43 have got good opportunity in the future for them to be

10:50:45 even more effective.

10:50:48 And so it is working.

10:50:49 >> So avoidance -- I heard that term before in your

10:50:59 world -- is a good thing, for the companies, for the

10:51:01 community, for your rate payers, et cetera.

10:51:04 So then I circle back to the other question, why would

10:51:07 you have caps on things like photovoltaic incentives?

10:51:16 Because clearly if we can generate power on our roofs

10:51:19 working together with my capital investment from my

10:51:23 home and your incentive, you know, and then I take




10:51:28 excess capacity and I put it back into the system,

10:51:30 which I think is required now.

10:51:32 >>> Right.

10:51:33 >> And that creates more avoidance.

10:51:35 >>> Right.

10:51:36 Good question.

10:51:38 And you are exactly right in terms of the way it works.

10:51:42 Maybe just a little bit of background.

10:51:44 The way the incentive mechanism works is that if an

10:51:48 individual customer is installing solar equipment, for

10:51:50 instance, on his or her home or business, he or she

10:51:59 gets paid a rebate, that rebate comes from all of our

10:52:01 customers.

10:52:03 All of our customers pony up to help that particular

10:52:06 customer install that.

10:52:08 >> If I used my capital to help you avoid building a

10:52:13 power plant.

10:52:15 But you also have the pollution benefit as well.

10:52:17 >> That's exactly right.

10:52:19 And I go back a little bit to the slide that I showed

10:52:24 before.

10:52:24 There needs to be a bit of a balance of energy,




10:52:29 economics and the environment in all of this.

10:52:31 If we take solar, for instance, solar has a lot of

10:52:38 attributes to it.

10:52:39 It allows us to not have to burn fossil fuel, and it

10:52:43 reduces carbon dioxide emissions which are a precursor

10:52:48 to global warming, or the studies say, and so that's a

10:52:53 good thing about solar.

10:52:56 The more challenging thing with a wide proliferation of

10:53:00 solar is that the sun doesn't always shine.

10:53:03 And but customers always want power.

10:53:08 And so as a result of that, we can in fact avoid some

10:53:16 energy generation with solar, but our analysis would

10:53:20 say you can't always rely on the capacity of solar to

10:53:23 be there.

10:53:24 And so we have got a balance again the benefits of the

10:53:30 environment, the benefits from an economic standpoint,

10:53:34 and the energy needs of our customers.

10:53:36 And we think some solar on our system is a very good

10:53:40 thing.

10:53:42 Can it take the place of serving all of the commerce'

10:53:46 energy needs?

10:53:46 Probably not.




10:53:47 Because the sun doesn't shine all the time.

10:53:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But what percentage of our system

10:53:54 is solar right now?

10:53:56 >>> Very little.

10:53:57 Very little.

10:53:59 And that's why we think it makes sense to provide some

10:54:01 incentives.

10:54:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't know if you looked into it

10:54:05 but I'm sure that based on your analysis, I bet we

10:54:09 could go up to 10 or 20% of the system with solar and

10:54:12 still have a system that works.

10:54:13 >> Well, and there are in fact proposals both at the

10:54:18 state level and at the federal level that talk about as

10:54:22 much as 20% generation by renewables by certain dates.

10:54:29 And I think geography makes a big difference in terms

10:54:35 of what the real opportunities is.

10:54:36 Western states have a lot more President Obama tension

10:54:39 than Florida does.

10:54:41 We have some decent solar opportunities here.

10:54:44 Maybe not as good as the southwest.

10:54:47 And the reality is I'm not sure that, you know, a 20%

10:54:51 or whatever standard that might be, fits for every




10:54:55 locality, you know, every geography.

10:55:00 >> Two more quick questions.

10:55:01 One, I asked you before about rewards and penalties

10:55:04 associated with achieving these goals.

10:55:05 I'm glad there have been goals in place.

10:55:08 Goals are a good thing, we tell our children, right?

10:55:12 It sounds like the goals are in place for a long time

10:55:15 and is there any teeth to this?

10:55:19 >> Well, I think the proof again is kind of in the

10:55:22 pudding of our experience with these programs.

10:55:24 I think back in the mid 1980s when this all got

10:55:27 started, I don't think we knew how many people were

10:55:30 going to take advantage of the voluntary incentives.

10:55:33 But what we found is that we have a lot of customers

10:55:38 that took advantage of our early load management

10:55:40 programs.

10:55:41 A lot of customers that have taken advantage of the

10:55:43 energy audit, and so I think the key is in the market

10:55:50 using these programs.

10:55:51 And hopefully with an increase incentives, we are going

10:55:55 to even get some more market teeth, you know, moving

10:55:58 forward.




10:55:59 >> I guess if I were in the PSC I might look at it and

10:56:02 say, if there is more teeth, then you might be pushing,

10:56:09 more motivated to really get this community onboard.

10:56:14 But we can discuss that over coffee sometime.

10:56:16 And then my last question is, a very big question is

10:56:21 the cap question.

10:56:24 I think you alluded to the federal aspect of all of

10:56:28 this, the national or global aspect of all of this.

10:56:31 I have reads -- and I don't want to impugn you guys --

10:56:37 I have read utility companies are digging in, in

10:56:39 Washington, to oppose cap and trade.

10:56:42 I don't know if TECO takes a direct position through

10:56:45 your national trade organization on that.

10:56:47 >>> Well, maybe late-breaking update from the Edison

10:56:52 electric institute meeting that I was at.

10:56:55 All of the CEOs were meeting there, and I think what

10:56:56 I saw was a general understanding that it was quite

10:57:04 likely there would be some form of Co2 legislation, and

10:57:15 broader environmental regulation within a fairly short

10:57:15 period of time. Nobody knows exactly how quickly it

10:57:15 will happen.

10:57:15 I think -- we as utility companies, I think, electric




10:57:16 utility have shifted from, you know, kind of a great

10:57:26 amount of uncertainty in terms of whether it was going

10:57:30 to be there to kind of -- if and when it gets

10:57:34 implemented, how are we going to do our very best to

10:57:35 take care of our companies and our customers?

10:57:39 And, as you know, Tampa Electric has done a lot in

10:57:45 recent times with the conversion of one of our large

10:57:50 power plants from coal to natural gas.

10:57:53 We reduced our CO2 emissions by about 20%.

10:57:56 We have reduced our particulate emissions by probably

10:58:00 about 80% since 1998.

10:58:04 So our focus has kind of shifted.

10:58:06 Our focus is on making sure that if and when there is

10:58:11 environmental legislation that we and our customers get

10:58:16 credit for what we have already done in the Tampa Bay

10:58:17 area.

10:58:18 And so we are not in a mode of in any way trying to

10:58:24 obstruct.

10:58:24 We are in a mode of trying to watch out for our

10:58:27 commerce and make sure that whatever comes is the most

10:58:30 economic as it can be, while still balancing the

10:58:34 benefits of such legislation to the environment.




10:58:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You started off by saying that

10:58:42 elected officials, it's really elected officials that

10:58:46 are elected to speak for the people.

10:58:49 And so you are looking for input from the people,

10:58:51 clearly it's going to come to you through the elected

10:58:55 officials in Washington on this issue.

10:59:00 So I guess we'll all stay tuned and see how that works

10:59:02 out.

10:59:03 >>MARY MULHERN: You are a for-profit company, right?

10:59:09 >> Yes.

10:59:10 >> I think John got your answer there.

10:59:12 Their job is to make money.

10:59:14 And they sell energy.

10:59:16 So until there is legislation, federal and state

10:59:20 legislation, that require them to burn less and use

10:59:31 less it's not going to happen.

10:59:32 It's just the reality.

10:59:38 I think if council wants to do something, they want to

10:59:40 go to Tallahassee and Washington that were in support

10:59:42 of alternative energy legislation and cap and trade if

10:59:47 that's what we hope is going to happen.

10:59:50 My question for you is -- and thank you.




10:59:53 And I appreciate everything you are doing.

10:59:54 And I understand, you know, what your company does and

10:59:58 what position you are in.

10:59:59 But that's why I had hoped that this task force would

11:00:06 come up with something, some public solutions that we

11:00:10 can do, because we are not in the business of making

11:00:12 money.

11:00:13 We are in the business of saving money, and of

11:00:16 providing a service to our customers, whereas you have

11:00:19 to also do your bottom line.

11:00:25 That's where I hope we can go forward trying to get

11:00:27 this city administration to do whatever they can to

11:00:31 reduce our output and to help our citizens to reduce

11:00:35 their carbon.

11:00:41 But what percentage of the energy that you create is

11:00:45 coal and what percentage comes from coal burning, and

11:00:48 what percentage comes from natural gas at this point?

11:00:51 >>> We are about 50% coal generation and 50% natural

11:00:56 gas generation.

11:00:59 At this point.

11:00:59 But I would point out that in the 90s, before we made

11:01:04 this conversion of the Gannon station to the Bayside




11:01:09 station, we were close to 98% coal firing.

11:01:12 Now, one thing I would point out is that one of the

11:01:16 things that we have done -- and I think we have been

11:01:19 very much in the leading edge -- is with the existing

11:01:22 coal burning that we have, we have done a lot to reduce

11:01:27 emissions from those units as well.

11:01:29 We have installed scrubbers for oxide, precursor to

11:01:36 acid rain, preproduction, and we have also installed

11:01:39 very recently, we completed a project to for catalytic

11:01:46 reduction which reduces carbon monoxide emissions which

11:01:51 is a precursor to ozone.

11:01:57 The coal that we are burning at this point is being

11:01:59 burned in a state-of-the-art unit, the best available

11:02:03 controls, including our Polk power station which you

11:02:08 may know actually gasifies coal and removes a lot of

11:02:11 the constituents before it's burned as a synthetic

11:02:15 natural gas.

11:02:15 >>MARY MULHERN: That's great.

11:02:18 50%.

11:02:19 Almost 50% reduction in coal burning in like a decade.

11:02:24 That's great.

11:02:31 You had to do that because of clean air standards.




11:02:33 >> That's right.

11:02:34 It was part of a consent decree that we had with the

11:02:37 Environmental Protection Agency.

11:02:38 >> So it works when you have regulations, if we could

11:02:40 pass some laws.

11:02:42 My question for you -- this is my last question.

11:02:51 Your predecessor was talking about -- wait, that might

11:02:55 not be right.

11:02:55 Let me fill you in on what happened on the solar

11:02:58 project, the solar plant that's not going to happen.

11:03:03 But I think before that you were talking about building

11:03:07 either was it nuclear, or was it --

11:03:10 >> It was an adjunct to the coal gasification facility.

11:03:13 >> So it was -- that would be clean coal.

11:03:19 >> Right.

11:03:20 >> So since the solar project isn't going to happen,

11:03:21 does that mean you are going back to the coal, building

11:03:26 of coal facility?

11:03:26 >> Well, the short story on that is we are required as

11:03:31 one of the many regulations, under one of the many

11:03:34 regulations we work under, that when we are looking at

11:03:38 building a new power plant, large scale, now, coal




11:03:42 gasification power plant, for instance, we have to go

11:03:44 out for bid to see whether there are competing power

11:03:49 suppliers that could provide the power cheaper.

11:03:52 And when we went out for bid to see if somebody could

11:03:56 provide a substitute to the gasification facility, this

11:04:01 is back in 2007 that we were proposing, we also decided

11:04:04 to go out with a renewable energy bid.

11:04:08 We saw renewable energy coming.

11:04:11 Governor Charlie Crist issued executive orders in favor

11:04:15 of renewable for the folio standard, and so on our own

11:04:21 initiative we issued a request for proposal for solar

11:04:24 proposals.

11:04:25 The best proposal that we got was from a company called

11:04:28 energy 5.0.

11:04:31 It was more expensive than our coal alternative, and in

11:04:35 fact it was for much less power than our coal

11:04:37 alternative.

11:04:38 Our coal alternative was going to be 600 megawatts.

11:04:41 This particular proposal that we got was 25 megawatts

11:04:47 of central station solar capacity.

11:04:49 Basically a bunch of solar panels in a field.

11:04:53 We made a decision in late 2007 to postpone the




11:05:01 gasification facility indefinitely, for a variety of

11:05:06 reasons, some of which were there was growing

11:05:10 environmental concern about coal, even though we felt

11:05:11 very strongly that our gasification technology was the

11:05:14 best way to burn coal.

11:05:16 The other thing is we were starting to see a downturn

11:05:18 in the local economy, and as a result of that we

11:05:25 questioned the timing and the need for that facility.

11:05:27 So that particular plan, looking back, hindsight is

11:05:34 20-20, we are glad we did postpone.

11:05:37 And that particular project, the 600-megawatt

11:05:42 gasification facility went by the boards.

11:05:44 But we have contracted with energy 5.0, and it was

11:05:50 subject to -- the only thing to basically make that

11:05:54 contract enforceable that was left was approval by the

11:05:57 Florida Public Service Commission.

11:06:01 But what we found was that, as we were preparing to go

11:06:06 to the Florida Public Service Commission with this, we

11:06:10 were all -- and I say all -- the legislature and the

11:06:12 commission and TECO were in a bit of a quandary.

11:06:18 And the quandary was what's the standard for what

11:06:23 should be paid for a large central station facility.




11:06:29 And this facility was more costly than our next avoided

11:06:35 generating unit, was the Florida Public Service

11:06:38 Commission going to approve that?

11:06:40 And we all kind of looked to the legislature to see if

11:06:43 they would pass renewable legislation that would put

11:06:47 some quantification on that, in 2009, and then very

11:06:50 recently again in 2010.

11:06:52 And neither time did renewable legislation get passed.

11:06:57 And so as a result of that, we put that bigger solar

11:07:01 project on hold, but we are very interested, as we say,

11:07:07 in smaller solar opportunities at the right time and

11:07:11 right place, maybe even having a central station solar

11:07:14 facility.

11:07:15 >>MARY MULHERN: It makes -- from what I have seen and

11:07:19 read, distributed generation makes more sense for solar

11:07:25 energy than a big plants.

11:07:26 It's just -- because of the problems like you said with

11:07:31 the fund going on.

11:07:33 And also the distribution and all that.

11:07:37 But my question for you now is, you asked what did

11:07:43 those two possibilities for more power generation.

11:07:45 So what is next?




11:07:48 Or are you not going to be pursuing it right now?

11:07:52 >>> Well, at this point, we had basically a hiatus in

11:07:56 kind of all of our thinking on new power plants,

11:07:59 because we just haven't experienced any real growth.

11:08:02 You know, for a period of time in 2008 and 2009, for

11:08:07 the first time in my 29-year history with the company,

11:08:10 we actually saw negative growth.

11:08:13 Now, we are starting to see a little bit of Grothe in

11:08:17 net meters in the fourth quarter and first quarter of

11:08:20 this year and we are beginning to think about what's

11:08:23 going to be needed for the future, and we do have a

11:08:25 large purchase contract that we are buying power from a

11:08:28 third party generator that's going away in 2013, and so

11:08:33 our current ten-year cite plan that we filed with the

11:08:37 Florida Public Service Commission on April 1st of

11:08:39 this year shows four small peaking type units,

11:08:47 combustion units to be added to the system in 2013,

11:08:51 mainly to replace this power purchase as opposed to

11:08:56 meeting any new growth.

11:08:57 >> What's a combustion turbine?

11:09:01 >> Basically a jet engine.

11:09:03 >> Oil?




11:09:04 >> Natural gas fire.

11:09:06 Basically the engines that we are looking to install

11:09:09 are just like some that we just installed.

11:09:12 We installed five of these on our system within the

11:09:14 last year E.

11:09:15 And they really are literally the engines that are on

11:09:22 the wing of airplanes.

11:09:25 >>MARY MULHERN: So it sounds like it was really like

11:09:29 the rest of the boom, the housing boom, and kind of

11:09:32 that bubble that your projections didn't actually

11:09:38 happen just lake pretty much everything else in our

11:09:42 experience, you know, all the zonings we approved,

11:09:46 nothing is getting built.

11:09:48 So it's good in a way.

11:09:52 It won't create any more pollution.

11:09:53 >>> That's right.

11:09:54 And I think it gives us a little bit of time to do

11:09:56 things like we have done with the task force and look

11:09:58 at our conservation programs, because I think, you

11:10:02 know, on the other hand, I think we are all hopeful

11:10:04 that there's going to be some rebound in the economy,

11:10:06 and going to be some growth going forward, but I think




11:10:10 with our new conservation programs, we are more

11:10:14 prepared and better positioned for that next round of

11:10:19 growth, if and when it comes.

11:10:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, I think what you have told us is

11:10:23 basically that we have to get the legislation at the

11:10:27 state level and the national level to enable you to do

11:10:31 these things.

11:10:32 To do more.

11:10:34 Alternative energy solutions.

11:10:36 >> Yes, I think so.

11:10:38 I think the other thing that is really important, and

11:10:43 it's happening right now, is that the market itself

11:10:47 improves.

11:10:49 You know, just like flat screen TVs.

11:10:52 The first flat screen TVs cost, what, $5,000, and now

11:10:58 they are very competitive, very reasonably priced.

11:11:00 And I think we are seeing some of that happening with

11:11:03 solar.

11:11:03 We are seeing some of that happen with wind.

11:11:05 And it takes some incentives; I think, to get the

11:11:10 market going and get us on that curve where the costs

11:11:14 come down.




11:11:15 And hopefully, also, this little hiatus that we are in,

11:11:21 with growth right now, will give the market some time

11:11:24 to get innovative, and for the prices of some of these

11:11:27 technologies to come down some.

11:11:29 >>GWEN MILLER: We have one more question.

11:11:34 We have to move.

11:11:35 We have two more agenda items.

11:11:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: In your peoples gas are you making

11:11:40 new gas lines available for people in neighborhoods?

11:11:45 >> Yes, we are.

11:11:46 There's about a 10% penetration of natural gas service

11:11:50 in Florida.

11:11:52 And for the most part, it's been in brand new

11:11:56 neighborhoods.

11:11:56 And the reason for that is it's cheaper to run gas

11:12:00 lines before the neighborhood is built, as you know,

11:12:04 from your utility business, than go through existing

11:12:08 neighborhoods.

11:12:09 But we do have some programs.

11:12:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll tell what you I'm very, very

11:12:11 interested in.

11:12:12 As we look forward to increased transportation systems




11:12:16 and increasing the density particularly in our urban

11:12:20 core, some of the more intense new developments really

11:12:23 want to use gas.

11:12:24 And I believe it's been problematic for them because

11:12:27 you all have -- you haven't had a policy of supporting

11:12:32 expansion in the urban core.

11:12:34 But I hope that you will do that, because, frankly, gas

11:12:38 is better for really good cooking.

11:12:41 And --

11:12:44 >> We do have some customers.

11:12:46 And perhaps we are going to schedule something up in

11:12:47 the future maybe in 60 days you can come back and give

11:12:51 us a report on your plans to make gas available when

11:12:57 things warm up again and when we start rebuilding,

11:13:00 particularly in our areas that are going to be served

11:13:01 by our transportation.

11:13:04 >> Very good.

11:13:05 We would very much like to do that.

11:13:08 >> With Encore coming back.

11:13:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.

11:13:09 We appreciate you will coming in for this presentation.

11:13:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can we have a report in two months




11:13:16 with numbers attached to it and what the city is doing?

11:13:20 We didn't hear at all what the city is doing.

11:13:21 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to ask that we have a

11:13:26 staff report with how the city is implementing the

11:13:36 recommendations of the TECO energy -- citizens energy

11:13:41 task force to invite city staff to make that

11:13:48 presentation, and to invite all of the members of the

11:13:51 task force, and TECO, everyone that participated in

11:13:57 that task force, to come to the meeting if they can.

11:14:03 I think a staff report?

11:14:05 I think a staff report.

11:14:06 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.

11:14:09 All in favor say Aye.

11:14:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have to have a date.

11:14:12 >>MARY MULHERN: How about at our August meeting, one

11:14:15 of our August meetings maybe?

11:14:19 The second one, which would be -- the 26th?

11:14:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't you put it back to a

11:14:43 workshop, because if you want to have people here and

11:14:46 discussion.

11:14:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do we have an August workshop?

11:14:50 >>MARY MULHERN: We have to do that for the public




11:14:53 input?

11:14:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: No, I was just saying to give more

11:14:57 time.

11:14:57 >>MARY MULHERN: More time.

11:14:59 All right.

11:15:02 I don't know.

11:15:03 >> There is no August workshop.

11:15:06 Florida League of Cities.

11:15:07 >>MARY MULHERN: Do you want to do in the September

11:15:09 then?

11:15:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What's the September workshop?

11:15:17 The 30th?

11:15:18 >>THE CLERK: You want what time?

11:15:25 Because you already have a workshop set for 9:00 and

11:15:29 the rules and recommendations governing surface parking

11:15:32 lots.

11:15:32 10:00 you have a workshop regarding the consideration

11:15:36 of amendments to the historic district.

11:15:40 >>MARY MULHERN: 11.

11:15:42 Yes.

11:15:42 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.

11:15:44 All in favor say Aye.




11:15:46 Opposed, Nay.

11:15:48 We now go to item number 6.

11:15:52 >> Is there any backup on that?

11:16:44 >>THOM SNELLING: I do not have a formal presentation.

11:16:46 I have some of the information.

11:16:49 And, yes, I have some handouts for you.

11:16:51 I have the information on the actual state requirement

11:16:55 and what some other local jurisdictions and counties

11:16:59 around the state are doing as well as some of the

11:17:03 projects that we are working on.

11:17:05 So I have that.

11:17:07 And you had made mention about the items, you did

11:17:13 mention that already.

11:17:15 I can discuss that very quickly.

11:17:17 I can do that.

11:17:18 That may be a good place to start real quickly because

11:17:20 it's something that has been happening.

11:17:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If I can make a suggestion.

11:17:29 I would like to request that council -- that we reverse

11:17:32 the typical order of this.

11:17:34 I think we know what the issue is, whether or not we

11:17:39 should be requiring the city to build to LEED silver,




11:17:48 period, to LEED silver and get a certificate to LEED

11:17:51 silver as compared to the way the code ends up getting

11:17:55 written which we don't need to get into because that's

11:17:58 historical.

11:17:59 It says right now shall be built to satisfy at a

11:18:01 minimum the current USGCG LEED silver stand standard

11:18:08 which has been interpreted not getting the certificate

11:18:10 but building to a certain level.

11:18:12 What I would like to do is reverse it because this is

11:18:15 not just council's issue; my issue, Linda's issue,

11:18:19 whatever.

11:18:20 This is actually community that brought this up to

11:18:22 start with.

11:18:23 So I would like to hear from the community just to say

11:18:29 if they have a problem with it, if they don't have a

11:18:31 problem with it, whatever, and then we can hear from

11:18:36 staff sort of as rebuttal and then council to get into

11:18:38 it.

11:18:39 It's a little bit different.

11:18:41 But I don't have a lot of time U.I have to be out of

11:18:43 here in about 15, 20 minutes.

11:18:45 >>MARY MULHERN: I think I can hear from Tom first if




11:18:48 he makes it quick, right?

11:18:51 And I do want to clarify that this didn't come up.

11:18:55 This came up because I put it on the agenda.

11:18:58 And I brought up the discussion that was -- and I very

11:19:03 much want to be able to have a discussion and hear from

11:19:07 the community.

11:19:08 But again we don't have the green community.

11:19:18 We called them neighborhood associations? They are not

11:19:21 neighborhood -- interest group or something?

11:19:23 Is that what it was?

11:19:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Special interest group.

11:19:26 >>MARY MULHERN: No.

11:19:27 Is that what you called it when we were talking about

11:19:29 increasing the public comment?

11:19:32 You said you wanted it to not be restricted to --

11:19:37 organized opposition.

11:19:38 Yes.

11:19:38 So, anyway, the organized green building people aren't

11:19:42 here.

11:19:43 So I do want to say that Mr. Shelby is pointing out

11:19:50 what I had asked him to, is just to reword it.

11:19:57 Let's hear from Tom.




11:19:58 Then hear from the public.

11:20:01 >>THOM SNELLING: Growth management development

11:20:02 services.

11:20:02 I will be quick.

11:20:04 As John said, there's some interpretation of the

11:20:08 ordinance, that we need the LEED silver equivalency,

11:20:15 not actually getting a certificate.

11:20:17 And that's how we have applied it.

11:20:22 I went through and double checked and went back and

11:20:24 looked at the additional Florida energy plan, and --

11:20:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What does strife mean?

11:20:42 >>THOM SNELLING: Strife?

11:20:43 It means to --

11:20:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It doesn't have any weight.

11:20:50 >>THOM SNELLING: Right.

11:20:51 That's what's written here.

11:20:53 Very quickly just walking through the plan was adopted

11:20:57 to achieve a LEED standard.

11:20:59 No mention of certification.

11:21:01 Again, we enforce it in 2007 when it passed the

11:21:05 executive order and then the actual law house bill 7135

11:21:08 specified the LEED equivalent, et cetera, et cetera.




11:21:12 There was no specific requirements in the state

11:21:15 statutes to achieve a certification.

11:21:18 As you pointed out, they would strive to be those types

11:21:21 of things.

11:21:22 And the city pretty much modeled it's its -- we

11:21:29 actually took a lead requirement as well, and the way

11:21:33 that the state did it.

11:21:35 >>GWEN MILLER: How does the state implement that?

11:21:44 >>MARY MULHERN: Good question.

11:21:45 >>> All federal, court, state buildings, municipal

11:21:51 court, everything they are building and renovating,

11:21:54 they meet that and they check it against that.

11:21:57 How the state actually implements --

11:22:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: How are they getting LEED

11:22:02 certificates or not?

11:22:03 >> If they are actually getting LEED certification,

11:22:06 councilman, I don't know that.

11:22:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think it's a pretty important

11:22:11 question.

11:22:11 >>> I could see if they have been getting

11:22:14 certification.

11:22:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Because that's sort of the key




11:22:17 question here.

11:22:21 >>THOM SNELLING: To go around the other municipalities

11:22:23 and counties, it's about a 50-50 break between

11:22:27 municipalities and counties that actually requires LEED

11:22:30 certification and those that do not

11:22:33 Of those that we looked at, Broward County,

11:22:36 Gainesville, Jacksonville, Miami require LEED

11:22:39 certification as mandated in their codes.

11:22:42 Hillsborough County does not.

11:22:43 Orange County, Orlando and Sarasota, they do not

11:22:47 mandate, require LEED certification, though some of

11:22:50 their buildings are being registered and certified,

11:22:53 speaking directly to your question, but actually

11:22:55 required in the codes for Orange County, Orlando,

11:22:57 Sarasota, and Sarasota County, they are not.

11:23:00 Tallahassee is the same.

11:23:01 They are not actually required to get a LEED

11:23:03 certification, the certificate.

11:23:05 Their codes are written so that they meet that minimum

11:23:08 LEED standard.

11:23:09 The nuances of how they are achieving that, I don't

11:23:12 know.




11:23:12 I know how we are doing it.

11:23:14 We are tracking.

11:23:15 We have a template and checklist that we have.

11:23:20 Dave could speak to that if you like.

11:23:21 But that's what it is.

11:23:22 It's not mandatory.

11:23:23 And some of the jurisdictions are getting certified in

11:23:28 registering their buildings.

11:23:29 Some are not.

11:23:30 So it's somewhat across the board in terms of the

11:23:34 individual interpretation of each of the communities

11:23:37 that we looked at.

11:23:38 At the state level, again, not required.

11:23:41 They may be getting certified or they may not be.

11:23:43 I don't know the actual information of how many of

11:23:47 their buildings happen to be LEED certified.

11:23:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone in the public like to

11:23:54 speak?

11:24:00 >>THOM SNELLING: And I have break down on costs of the

11:24:03 two buildings if would you like to see those.

11:24:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to see those.

11:24:09 >>THOM SNELLING: Okay.




11:24:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Now we will hear from the public.

11:24:18 >> Randy Baron, west Comanche Avenue, president of

11:24:25 T.H.A.N.

11:24:25 This issue came up at T.H.A.N. at our last meeting.

11:24:34 And the other concern that we have is what does the

11:24:37 actual certification which comes at a certain cost to

11:24:40 the city, what does it achieve?

11:24:43 And unless there are some tangible benefits that the

11:24:46 certifications will achieve over and above what the

11:24:48 city is actually doing, we were just questioning

11:24:51 whether or not it was an appropriate use of the funds

11:24:53 at this time.

11:24:54 So this was a motion at T.H.A.N. to just recommend that

11:24:58 unless there is a benefit to that, that the city keep

11:25:02 doing what it's doing now which is strive to achieve

11:25:04 that the LEED standards.

11:25:05 But not the certification.

11:25:10 Thank you

11:25:12 >> Spencer Kass for the Virginia park neighborhood

11:25:15 association.

11:25:16 We have the exact same concern that T.H.A.N. had.

11:25:20 This sort of becomes more of a trust issue.




11:25:25 What staff is saying is accurate, not accurate.

11:25:27 Although we have many disagreements with staff, we have

11:25:30 known. Known staff to be dishonest with us.

11:25:33 Given the financial hardships that the city has, given

11:25:38 in six hours we are going to stand here and talk about

11:25:39 projects all over the city, that every neighborhood

11:25:41 association wants for their areas, we are going to hear

11:25:43 from the city there's not enough money, and times are

11:25:46 tough, and we just don't think this is an appropriate

11:25:48 time to do that.

11:25:49 As long as the city is actually constructing the

11:25:52 buildings to be economically energy efficient.

11:25:55 Thank you.

11:25:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?

11:25:58 Any questions by council?

11:26:00 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes, actually, I meant to ask Thom

11:26:03 Snelling a question before you sat down.

11:26:07 How many city employees do we have who are LEED

11:26:13 certified to certify LEED buildings?

11:26:16 >>> Certified buildings, we don't -- none of our

11:26:21 employees actually certify.

11:26:22 We have two AP.




11:26:25 Dave has two in his contract administration.

11:26:27 I have one in my staff that looks at the fast track

11:26:31 permitting as well as whether or not they are meeting

11:26:34 our fast track requirements.

11:26:36 There's two people that I use that review our LEED.

11:26:40 David has one in his staff.

11:26:41 >> But they are staff people?

11:26:44 >>THOM SNELLING: Correct.

11:26:46 Would you not regulate and certify yourself.

11:26:48 That's bad policy to certify yourself as meeting a

11:26:52 code.

11:26:52 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, this piece of paper that I just

11:26:59 got from Randy says they are estimating the

11:27:05 certification fee.

11:27:09 Maybe Randy, do you want to --

11:27:14 >>> That was mine.

11:27:15 >> Oh, this is yours?

11:27:17 Okay.

11:27:20 All right, here is what I want to say.

11:27:27 Oh, wait, maybe I did have another question.

11:27:29 Oh, here is another question for you.

11:27:31 When the mayor signed the mayor's climate agreement,




11:27:37 was there a requirement that we have LEED certified --

11:27:41 build LEED certified?

11:27:44 >>THOM SNELLING: No.

11:27:45 No, ma'am.

11:27:45 >> Are you sure?

11:27:49 >>THOM SNELLING: Am I sure?

11:27:50 Yes.

11:27:50 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay, that's it.

11:27:54 Thanks.

11:27:55 Here is way want to say, John.

11:27:57 Actually the thing that jogged me to put this on the

11:28:00 agenda was when I went to the TECO -- mayor's TECO

11:28:04 energy presentation, and the mayor herself talked about

11:28:10 how all new city buildings are built to LEED

11:28:14 certification, and she gave us an example that as an

11:28:18 example the new fire station that's going to be built.

11:28:23 So it just occurred to me that, you know, we had passed

11:28:26 this, and I wasn't happy when we didn't require

11:28:29 certification, because just like we heard from TECO

11:28:33 earlier today, you need regulation to enforce that you

11:28:41 do something.

11:28:41 So you can say you are going to build it up to the LEED




11:28:45 certification, but there is no reason why it will be

11:28:47 that way.

11:28:48 So I think it's empty and it leaves us with no

11:28:52 accountability.

11:28:53 The other thing I wanted to say was that the tangible

11:28:59 benefits?

11:29:01 The tangible benefits of building green are incredible.

11:29:06 It's better air quality, less carbon, you know, less

11:29:11 carbon output, less waste, less water use, less

11:29:16 resources used, and the reality is that green building

11:29:19 is becoming cheaper and cheaper every year, every day.

11:29:24 And it is the -- the market actually -- it actually has

11:29:28 a market benefit right now because that's about the

11:29:29 only things that people are willing to build or

11:29:31 finance.

11:29:33 So whatever money we would be spend on additional costs

11:29:37 for green building or some additional cost for getting

11:29:42 certification will be paid back.

11:29:45 And that's what the industry tells us.

11:29:47 The industry tells us that a 3% higher investment in

11:29:53 building -- I'm trying to find this.

11:29:59 I'm reading this.




11:30:02 Not only does it pay for itself, but it ends up giving

11:30:06 you a better return on your investment.

11:30:08 So it's a smart thing to do.

11:30:09 And the reality is, the city has the money to finance

11:30:15 and has the ability to finance it.

11:30:17 And we don't even have to do it ourselves.

11:30:19 There are all kinds of companies that are doing

11:30:24 financing these kinds of energy conservation measures

11:30:28 that would give you green certification.

11:30:32 Siemen's, Trane, Johnson controls, these huge companies

11:30:37 will finance at no cost to you, they guarantee.

11:30:39 They call it a performance-based contracting.

11:30:42 They guarantee if you do these measures to reduce your

11:30:47 carbon output and to do green modifications or green

11:30:51 buildings, they guarantee that it will pay back, and it

11:30:58 will not cost you anything, because you are paying --

11:31:03 you are financing the cost of that construction.

11:31:08 Based on future savings.

11:31:09 So you are paying back that loan through future

11:31:12 savings.

11:31:12 There's all kinds of creative ways we can do this.

11:31:15 And I just, you know, it saves you money in the end.




11:31:18 You have to think of it as a minimal investment.

11:31:21 And the idea that you don't need to be certified makes

11:31:29 no sense.

11:31:29 We know if you don't have accountability, doesn't get

11:31:33 done.

11:31:33 And, you know, we are talking about this today with a

11:31:38 whole group of people, none of whom may even be here a

11:31:42 year from now.

11:31:43 So how do we know what's going to happen then?

11:31:45 That's why I want to write it into the ordinance that

11:31:47 LEED certification is actually gets certified, and it's

11:31:50 not just a standard.

11:31:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda?

11:31:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I had my hand up.

11:31:58 Point of order.

11:32:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm not here to disrupt progress.

11:32:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just for clarification I had my

11:32:05 hand up and was noticed before Mr. Miranda came back in

11:32:07 the room.

11:32:08 If Mr. Miranda would like to go first.

11:32:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, sir, I don't wants to disrupt

11:32:12 progress.




11:32:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: All right.

11:32:18 Thom, I don't know if you have a copy of the code.

11:32:22 But I'm sure you are familiar with it because I think

11:32:24 you are the one who implemented it.

11:32:26 On the other part of the code 17-5-204 -- Mr. Shelby

11:32:32 can give you a copy.

11:32:33 The other part of that code, you and I, other fine

11:32:38 folks in the community, create an incentive package to

11:32:44 encourage private development to build to lead

11:32:48 standards, and then in turn create incentives to build

11:32:54 LEED silver they get a 40% reduction rebate on their

11:32:58 building permit fees.

11:32:59 If they build the platinum they get an 80% reduction.

11:33:02 We concluded as a community and as a council that was

11:33:06 worthwhile to encourage construction, with lead

11:33:11 certification, that that was a worthwhile thing for our

11:33:19 community.

11:33:19 And as a community we were willing to pay for it.

11:33:24 We didn't say that you can get that up to 80% rebate on

11:33:29 your building fees by building to a USGBC LEED

11:33:35 standard.

11:33:35 We said if you get that certificate, show it to us,




11:33:39 we'll give you the rebate.

11:33:41 Right?

11:33:42 Correct.

11:33:42 >> Correct.

11:33:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why would we treat the private

11:33:50 sector differently than we treat ourselves? And let

11:33:51 me -- it's sort of a rhetorical question because I

11:33:54 think you are going to point to his five people and say

11:33:58 that we trust them, but we don't trust the private

11:34:00 sector.

11:34:04 We don't trust the private sector so we hold them to a

11:34:07 different standard, if you want this rebate back then

11:34:10 you have to get this certificate.

11:34:11 Okay.

11:34:11 But we trust ourselves to do the right thing.

11:34:14 Now, do I trust David and his people?

11:34:18 I don't know his people.

11:34:19 But I trust David because he's been here a long time

11:34:22 and he's a good guy, a pretty straight shatter and he

11:34:25 does tell the truth.

11:34:27 I might not always like what he says but he tells the

11:34:29 truth.




11:34:30 That's fine.

11:34:30 But as Mary pointed out, I have got a feeling next five

11:34:35 years, David might not desire to keep working in this

11:34:39 area, might want to take a retirement, five or ten

11:34:41 years, whatever he wants, he's going to retire.

11:34:44 This council is going to be changing.

11:34:46 You are going to be gone, et cetera, and I think Mary's

11:34:49 point is very well taken, that if we codify it, then it

11:34:52 doesn't matter who we trust and don't trust, who is in

11:34:55 place, what mayor is in place, what staff is in place

11:34:57 that this is a requirement of the city, that if the

11:35:01 city goes forward in the future and build new buildings

11:35:02 that they be built to that standard, not just to the

11:35:05 standard but they will be certified to that standard.

11:35:08 That's sort of a speech.

11:35:11 If you have anything different than what I said, I'll

11:35:12 let you chime in in a minute.

11:35:13 The only other question I had is you gave a range on

11:35:17 this piece of paper about the Spring Hill community

11:35:19 center.

11:35:20 You said, well, E -- and I appreciate your candor --

11:35:24 somewhere between 15,000 and 51,000 additional dollars




11:35:27 to get LEED certified.

11:35:28 Okay.

11:35:29 What was the total cost of the Spring Hill community

11:35:31 center?

11:35:33 David?

11:35:34 $2 million?

11:35:36 So, David, you got a calculator on you, I bet.

11:35:40 No?

11:35:42 Anyway, Charlie, you are a whiz at math.

11:35:43 If I split the baby of Spring Hill, that's $30,000.

11:35:48 So it's $30,000 and the $2 million facility, what does

11:35:53 that sound like?

11:35:54 1.5%.

11:35:56 So I want to put in the perspective.

11:35:58 I'm not saying $30,000 is nothing.

11:36:00 But I'm saying it might be a 1% additional investment

11:36:04 to guarantee that that in our future buildings are

11:36:08 going to be built really tight and really well and

11:36:11 really green.

11:36:11 The same thing on the fire station, David.

11:36:14 What was that total?

11:36:16 Fire station 22.




11:36:19 A million bucks?

11:36:22 That comes out to about the same thing.

11:36:24 We split the baby.

11:36:25 It's $15,000.

11:36:26 If it's a million dollars construction again it's about

11:36:29 1.5%.

11:36:33 So I don't know where this is going to go.

11:36:35 I think Ms. Mulhern did a good job of proposing a tweak

11:36:38 to 15-503 which basically says that future

11:36:43 administrative buildings will get LEED silver

11:36:45 certified.

11:36:46 I think that's what the governor did several years ago.

11:36:49 If he's backed off since then I don't know.

11:36:51 >> Dave Andre, contract administration.

11:36:56 I would like to comment on the numbers that you have

11:36:58 been given.

11:36:58 And quite frankly, I don't agree with you.

11:37:01 Thom has done a good job researching some standards and

11:37:04 some sort of guidelines that are out there.

11:37:07 Our real world experience in getting numbers on what it

11:37:10 would cost are substantially higher than the numbers

11:37:13 that you have there.




11:37:14 And, again, whatever dollar we spend on this will come

11:37:19 out of capital funds and directly affect the ability

11:37:23 of --

11:37:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I ask one question about that,

11:37:26 Dave?

11:37:26 And I sort of asked this when Steve Daignault and I

11:37:29 were having a discussion about the spring hills

11:37:31 facility.

11:37:32 I said, why don't we bid it both ways? Why don't we

11:37:36 bid it as an option and say, here is the standard

11:37:41 package, know, build it just you build Spring Hill and

11:37:45 fire station 22 and then give us the same building with

11:37:48 the green -- the silver certificate LEED.

11:37:52 And if you throw that out to the real world, then you

11:37:55 and I don't have any more speculation.

11:37:59 Then the real world comes back and says, okay, here it

11:38:02 is, both ways, and then we know exactly what the number

11:38:05 is.

11:38:06 >> You can't do that because the process physically or

11:38:12 philosophically won't allow to you do that.

11:38:15 That's because the lead LEED certification process

11:38:19 starts from day one of the process with your design




11:38:21 consultants.

11:38:21 And the numbers that we are talking about here are

11:38:25 out-of-pocket costs to consultants to do the

11:38:29 certification process.

11:38:30 The improvements to the building are already in the

11:38:33 bid.

11:38:34 But to get the certification, you have got to do the

11:38:37 third-party documentation work in order to get the

11:38:41 certification.

11:38:42 So you can't bid it that way.

11:38:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, hear what you are saying and

11:38:49 I would agree a little bit.

11:38:50 But I think you can do it as a combination.

11:38:53 If you ask your consultant to work on it both ways

11:38:56 upfront, put together a bid package both ways, you

11:38:59 know, then yes, you have got some upfront cost was your

11:39:03 consultant doing it that way, but at the end of the day

11:39:04 I can't help but think a lot of those costs also are in

11:39:09 the construction and then the follow-through part of

11:39:11 it, you know, that frankly would be the GC's

11:39:17 responsibility.

11:39:17 >> The costs that you are seeing there are not GC




11:39:20 costs.

11:39:21 The effort to build to what we have designed and are

11:39:25 putting in the building is in the bid.

11:39:27 To give you a real world example, what we did, I think,

11:39:31 in essence what you asked us to do on fire station 22,

11:39:35 which by the way is a smaller building that requires

11:39:37 this in the ordinance, but we wanted to do it anyway,

11:39:41 is when we began that design process, the price that we

11:39:45 got just to do the certification portion for the

11:39:49 mechanical system alone exceeds the number that you

11:39:51 have on that piece of paper.

11:39:53 And so a decision we were faced with is what's the best

11:40:00 way to spend our money?

11:40:02 To build to that standard, to do documentation, when we

11:40:06 haven't -- you haven't asked us what are we doing to

11:40:10 ensure that we meet that equivalency?

11:40:13 We decided we need to meet the equivalency but we

11:40:16 needed to not spend those funds for those activities.

11:40:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern?

11:40:25 Mr. Miranda?

11:40:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: One more question.

11:40:28 When are you retiring, David?




11:40:30 Seriously.

11:40:30 >> I'm 57 years old.

11:40:33 Beyond that, you know, as long as my health is good and

11:40:36 you gays don't beat me up too bad --

11:40:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.

11:40:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Rule C-4-17, a council member who

11:40:50 has not spoken has the floor first.

11:40:52 I don't know if that's the right rule but I mention one

11:40:55 anyway.

11:40:56 I'm sorry.

11:40:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I was waiting for you.

11:40:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say this.

11:41:01 I really understand what you are trying to do.

11:41:07 How many in the audience here and how many on this dais

11:41:10 have solar water heater, solar?

11:41:13 Not too many.

11:41:14 How many of us have double insulated windows?

11:41:18 Not too many.

11:41:18 How many of us have new inside insulation between the

11:41:22 walls and the drywall?

11:41:23 Not too many.

11:41:24 How many of us meet qualifications for the astronauts?




11:41:28 not too many. In fact, none.

11:41:32 So here we are trying to work on something that will be

11:41:37 a duplicate of itself without paying a country club

11:41:41 setting fee to get a certificate.

11:41:46 How many of us have certificates of different kinds?

11:41:48 All of us do.

11:41:51 What does that mean?

11:41:53 That means you pay something.

11:41:55 The other day I was at the doctor's office and I saw a

11:41:58 certificate on the wall that says doctor of the year,

11:42:02 so-and-so.

11:42:03 And I went to the other doctor who didn't have a

11:42:05 certificate.

11:42:05 And I said, let me ask you something.

11:42:07 I said, am I going to the right doctor or should I go

11:42:10 to the one that says doctor of the year?

11:42:12 He said that costs $250 a year.

11:42:14 Why should I buy a certificate?

11:42:19 Is my doctor any better or worse than the other one?

11:42:22 I don't think so.

11:42:23 I think he's better.

11:42:24 But that's what it means.




11:42:26 That's what today's society has gotten to.

11:42:28 If I believe that the people will come here, unless I

11:42:33 have reasonable doubt that they are not saying the

11:42:35 facts, which I haven't seen or seen expressed, then I

11:42:40 have to believe that what they are doing is the right

11:42:43 thing.

11:42:44 When you start to buy materials and -- I would

11:42:50 imagine -- I'm not a constructer, not an engineer, I

11:42:54 don't work in that area, but would imagine to build

11:42:59 something qualified to meet whatever the qualification

11:43:00 is of the LEED family -- I am going to call it family

11:43:02 because they make money off it -- would be 2 to 5%.

11:43:06 What does at that time to get your payback?

11:43:09 Within three years.

11:43:11 So you have got to be an IQ of a minus something not to

11:43:14 build something that you are going to get your payback

11:43:18 within two or three years.

11:43:20 So we want to put it, when we start putting things in

11:43:25 black and white, that's exactly how you have got to

11:43:28 read them in black and white.

11:43:29 There's no gray.

11:43:32 There is no gray.




11:43:33 And without no gray you can't move from one end zone to

11:43:36 the other.

11:43:37 Because then you are stuck in your own tracks.

11:43:41 I am not one to be spend money without getting a

11:43:45 product.

11:43:46 If I want to get the product, and I don't have to spend

11:43:48 the money, guess what, I'm not going to spend the

11:43:51 money.

11:43:51 I'm going to get that product, and I am going to get

11:43:55 that built according to the best technology available

11:43:59 at the time that I built that building.

11:44:02 Whatever building it may be.

11:44:08 There's a lot of construction that more than likely

11:44:10 will be coming in the future.

11:44:11 I don't see why the city can't set aside -- you don't

11:44:17 have to call it this name, that name.

11:44:18 Just call it city new whatever.

11:44:21 And get it done under a system that creates the same

11:44:25 results without adding a burdensome on that cost.

11:44:30 That cost will be borne by the people who buy the

11:44:36 building or lease the building.

11:44:39 Somewhere along the line that bottom line is influenced




11:44:42 by the cost of these certificates.

11:44:46 And Madam Chair, I'm just trying to reason this thing

11:44:51 out in a reasonable manner.

11:44:54 And if this city is telling me that they are going to

11:44:57 meet and exceed -- and I don't know how many of you

11:45:00 have solar, like I said, new windows, or went to TECO

11:45:04 and got an energy audit, not too many, I don't think.

11:45:10 So if the city is Tampa is telling me they are going to

11:45:15 adhere to that, then I have to believe the presenters,

11:45:17 and I have to believe the legal department, and I have

11:45:20 to believe the mayor, whoever the mayor is.

11:45:22 I have yet to serve with a mayor, any mayor, who has

11:45:29 not done something that they say they would do and

11:45:33 didn't do it later on.

11:45:34 They have all done it.

11:45:35 Maybe not the right way that I felt was right, but they

11:45:38 succeeded in getting it done.

11:45:40 So that's all I have got to say, Madam Chair.

11:45:43 And I rest my case.

11:45:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We have 15 minutes.

11:45:47 We are losing one now.

11:45:49 We are going to lose some more.




11:45:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Dingfelder?

11:45:58 9 we have to move to number 7.

11:46:00 We have to get out of here in 15 minutes.

11:46:02 Transportation.

11:46:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: While he's coming up I want to say

11:46:07 the reason we are replacing the windows on City Hall is

11:46:12 because we, the city, know in our own historic

11:46:18 preservation offices were guilty of neglecting their

11:46:21 maintenance.

11:46:21 So we are replacing the historic windows with plastic

11:46:29 because we didn't follow our own rules, and sometimes

11:46:31 we do have to write things down.

11:46:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me answer that.

11:46:37 Was an economic things.

11:46:38 Every ten years, I have been here longs enough that

11:46:40 these windows of course replaced twice at a cost you

11:46:43 could have built five houses for those who didn't have

11:46:45 the money to buy one.

11:46:47 Maybe ten houses.

11:46:49 These windows that are coming in look exactly like what

11:46:52 you have here.

11:46:53 And I don't believe they are plastic, I believe they




11:46:54 are aluminum because in this hot weather humid weather

11:46:59 plastic as has a chance of crumbling and falling apart.

11:47:02 And I mentioned the central building in West Tampa.

11:47:05 They were replaced and three years later I went with a

11:47:08 pen like this to the windowsill, and my pen rite went

11:47:11 right through the windowsill.

11:47:13 You have to change.

11:47:18 They look alike.

11:47:19 They look identical.

11:47:20 It doesn't change the character of the building.

11:47:22 Doesn't change the historic value of the building.

11:47:25 If you talk about history maybe this building should

11:47:27 have air conditioning.

11:47:28 But it wasn't like that historical.

11:47:29 >> Randy Goers, land development.

11:47:35 I have a presentation on the transportation review

11:47:39 procedures.

11:47:40 I know your time is limited.

11:47:42 I will go through the presentation as quick as

11:47:44 possible.

11:47:44 But if you can hold your questions till the end, that

11:47:47 will allow me to get through it and I will try to sped




11:47:49 up -- speed up some of the areas and maybe follow up

11:47:54 with questions.

11:48:01 I want to start off.

11:48:02 This is the first review parameters for our

11:48:04 transportation review.

11:48:05 It's the current transportation concurrency exception

11:48:07 area.

11:48:08 Basically, you see there's three different areas of the

11:48:10 city, the overall city, the old part of the city, the

11:48:14 areas in the blue and green.

11:48:15 And under those review procedures today, by and large

11:48:19 the developer comes in, and they pay an impact fee, and

11:48:22 they move on to development.

11:48:24 Unless it is a large development causing impact on a

11:48:27 constrained roadway, there is no further review

11:48:30 throughout the city.

11:48:33 In the comp plan we approved the vision that called for

11:48:35 encouraging development in the business centers around

11:48:37 downtown, Westshore, USF, and along the mixed use

11:48:42 corridors that are in brown.

11:48:45 We have evolved into this concept for the

11:48:47 transportation review procedures.




11:48:48 And you can see from two different maps that we are not

11:48:51 moving from the city being one color, one review

11:48:54 standard now to a different standard.

11:48:56 And basically the math is a little bit -- the map, you

11:48:59 have to look at it from a reverse low. Everything in

11:49:02 the color, the orange and the green, stays pretty much

11:49:04 the same.

11:49:05 Those are the areas we want to encourage development so

11:49:07 we want the review procedures to be a little less

11:49:10 restrictive.

11:49:11 Everything that's in white is going to have greater

11:49:12 review standards.

11:49:13 And those are the areas of the neighborhoods.

11:49:16 In the in-fill areas where are we wanted to begin

11:49:18 protecting neighborhoods from adverse impacts of

11:49:21 transportation.

11:49:23 Here last we talked about this map and about the

11:49:25 procedures that they were going to vary by location,

11:49:27 that we are going to emphasize transit service in

11:49:30 proximity, that there was any emphasis on pedestrian

11:49:33 connectivity and neighborhood impacts and follow up

11:49:36 aligning our CIP program to support it.




11:49:38 I also mentioned that the pedestrian connectivity in

11:49:40 the neighborhood impacts with things that had special

11:49:44 problems that we are still looking at and they were

11:49:46 going to maybe change from the time we first really

11:49:48 thought about it until we were at today.

11:49:50 We talked about the public input process, and we were

11:49:54 going to meet with the external stakeholders.

11:49:56 We have three large stakeholder meetings, a number of

11:49:59 briefings, what you see there.

11:50:01 We also convened a group of professional engineers,

11:50:04 people who have do this work all the time, do

11:50:07 transportation studies, who are familiar with

11:50:10 concurrency of Tampa as well as other cities.

11:50:12 We wanted them to put up to peer review of our

11:50:16 ordinances.

11:50:17 Everything is on our project Web site.

11:50:19 Of course you have City Council workshops.

11:50:20 And we are here today.

11:50:23 Throughout the process, we have had 53 comments and

11:50:26 questions.

11:50:27 I think you should have received this report in your

11:50:31 e-mail.




11:50:32 If you haven't, I'll provide this to you now.

11:50:42 Every question that we have during the meetings or

11:50:44 e-mails we put it -- we record it and we have the staff

11:50:49 discuss the questions and the comments and provide

11:50:52 feedback where we needed clarification.

11:50:56 In many respects there were some recommendations that

11:50:57 we followed through, and revised the procedures

11:51:00 accordingly.

11:51:01 I am not going to go through all the comments because

11:51:03 you can scan them at your leisure.

11:51:05 But generally the comments came back in different types

11:51:10 of comments.

11:51:10 There were comments about the procedures being too

11:51:13 complex, that they were not user friendly, they really

11:51:17 relate.

11:51:19 Very specifically relate to a larger picture of what

11:51:20 the city was doing.

11:51:22 They suggested case study examples and so forth.

11:51:25 Weave we had questions just clarifying what the

11:51:27 procedures meant.

11:51:27 A lot of them from the engineers.

11:51:30 You will read the questions and then all of a sudden




11:51:32 you will get to a question where you know it's from an

11:51:35 engineer because they are looking for technical

11:51:37 answers.

11:51:38 There were concerns about the procedures might increase

11:51:41 review times, and the costs to development.

11:51:46 A number of questions about the feasibility and the

11:51:49 legal requirements for the pedestrian connectivity and

11:51:51 the neighborhood mitigation requirements.

11:51:53 And then a number of questions on impact fees, mobility

11:51:56 fees, impact fee credits and so forth.

11:51:58 All those questions were in the report.

11:52:00 And as you can see we did provide answers and in some

11:52:03 cases a recommended change to the procedures based on

11:52:06 that.

11:52:07 I think on page 3 of the report, you will see the list

11:52:10 of all the participants.

11:52:13 As you can see there's a number of people from

11:52:16 different disciplines that were involved in this.

11:52:17 As you go through the names they are very familiar,

11:52:20 been involved in development issues from both sides,

11:52:22 from the neighborhood, from recommending developments

11:52:26 from realty, and so forth, and I think we had a very




11:52:32 diverse group of experts who are the participating

11:52:35 process.

11:52:37 I think we got some good feedback from the overall

11:52:39 community.

11:52:41 Let me run through really some of the key observations,

11:52:44 of people wanting to know how the procedures work.

11:52:47 I will try to get through these as quick as possible to

11:52:49 give you an idea of how they will work and how they

11:52:51 will encourage development and protect neighborhoods.

11:52:53 The first one has to do with the concept called

11:52:56 de minimis.

11:52:57 We hear this all the time.

11:52:58 Basically here is an example of how it works.

11:53:00 If you have a two-lane highway de minimis basically

11:53:04 means that from a state statute, up to 2% of the road's

11:53:08 capacity can be used for development without any other

11:53:11 types of reviews or requirements.

11:53:14 That's a very loose interpretation.

11:53:16 The way you figure it out, off two lane undivided road,

11:53:21 it's de minimis is 23 trips, basically a development

11:53:23 that can generate 23 trips or less you can move forward

11:53:27 with the impact fee and no further study.




11:53:30 That might be something like this.

11:53:31 A hypothetical site of 50 town homes.

11:53:35 You apply the standard trip generation, it has 26

11:53:37 trips.

11:53:37 So in this case, the development would be called

11:53:42 deMIMIMUS, and not do 50, you might do 46, something to

11:53:49 get below the threshold, or say I need to have those 50

11:53:52 town homes, I'm willing to do the transportation study

11:53:54 so I know what I have to mitigate.

11:53:56 Take that same development to a four-lane highway, like

11:54:01 Dale Mabry, and you can see that the de minimis number

11:54:09 increases because capacity increases, so again that

11:54:09 developer can move forward.

11:54:09 What de minimis does, it allows development to proceed

11:54:12 based on the size of the roadway facility.

11:54:15 We heard some concerns, it was going to stop

11:54:19 development throughout the city but de minimis is a

11:54:22 built-in mechanism to allow development.

11:54:24 All through the city development can occur at different

11:54:26 levels according to the road that it's serving.

11:54:31 Transit corridors, this is new in the procedures

11:54:34 You want to take de minimis has been with us for 20




11:54:37 years, a state statute.

11:54:39 It's always had that provision.

11:54:40 It doesn't change.

11:54:41 This is a new provision, though.

11:54:42 With the idea of trying to encourage development along

11:54:44 the primary transit corridor.

11:54:46 And this example Kennedy Boulevard would be a primary

11:54:50 transit corridor.

11:54:51 It's a quarter mile distance is what we call the

11:54:54 transit corridor.

11:54:55 Here is an example of the project.

11:54:57 The public's -- it would fit into this corridor.

11:55:01 We had questions about how would be this fit into all

11:55:04 the other regulations that the city has.

11:55:05 In this case all the other regulations that the city

11:55:08 has are in effect.

11:55:10 The review, the design standards, the access, the

11:55:13 parking standards, all those things stay in effect so

11:55:17 this project would be built exactly the same way.

11:55:21 The difference would be moving forward it would not be

11:55:23 required to complete the transportation study.

11:55:25 Now if it was just one block south, it would have to




11:55:28 complete the transportation study.

11:55:30 It would then be up to the developer again to say,

11:55:33 well, do I want to move forward with the transportation

11:55:36 study and look at those impacts?

11:55:38 Or do I want to seek a different location?

11:55:41 In many respect it is transportation study just will

11:55:43 verify or identify what needs to be improved.

11:55:47 And in some cases, there may be some minor improvements

11:55:49 to maybe some additional improvements that need to be

11:55:52 made.

11:55:56 In the special areas that we have to consider with the

11:55:57 ordinance, we have presently five areas in the city

11:56:00 which are called no-impact fee areas, to encourage

11:56:05 economic development in West Tampa, East Tampa, and so

11:56:07 forth.

11:56:07 We need to retain those areas moving forward.

11:56:11 We didn't think it was fair to exempt them from impact

11:56:14 fees but then make them pay for a transportation study

11:56:16 and impact improvements later on so we are going to

11:56:18 retain those areas.

11:56:19 We also have areas that by virtue of the master

11:56:23 transportation plan is already addressed through




11:56:25 transportation needs.

11:56:26 That's the port, the airport and USF.

11:56:29 And we thought the master transportation plans are one

11:56:33 way to deal with the situations of the future.

11:56:35 The ordinance, anytime you have an ordinance, there's

11:56:38 always going to be an area that you think are covered

11:56:40 and maybe needs special attention.

11:56:42 So we can always do a transportation plan to address an

11:56:45 area from a holistic standpoint and come back with the

11:56:48 improvements.

11:56:52 So how do we really protect neighborhoods?

11:56:54 What does the ordinance do to move forward and protect

11:56:57 neighborhoods?

11:56:58 This is the -- this is how it would be handled.

11:57:02 The project would come in, larger than can be

11:57:06 accommodated by the statute.

11:57:08 But today they would just pay their impact fee and move

11:57:11 forward.

11:57:12 Moving forward, what they need to do is really take a

11:57:15 look at the intersection that they are going to be

11:57:17 impacting and the road that they face.

11:57:19 When you think about problems that occur into




11:57:22 neighborhoods in terms of traffic, where it begins is

11:57:25 at the intersection.

11:57:26 Because traffic backs up, the road can't accommodate it

11:57:29 and people want to move into the neighborhood.

11:57:31 So moving forward, the development in the in-fill and

11:57:34 neighborhood areas will now have to take a look at

11:57:37 their impact of the neighborhood and also on the road

11:57:39 that they fund and mitigate for their impacts.

11:57:44 Some developments are much larger than one lot

11:57:49 development that's going to impact one neighborhood.

11:57:52 They might have in this example of over 2 that you

11:57:56 trips.

11:57:58 A few slides ago when the example was only 23 trips,

11:58:00 now we are talking about a development of 2200 trips.

11:58:04 That particular project or projects like that might

11:58:06 impact this road.

11:58:08 It might impact that road.

11:58:09 This road.

11:58:11 And that road.

11:58:12 And along that the intersections and requirements.

11:58:15 So the ordinance looks at very large projects that are

11:58:17 affecting something larger than just the adjacent




11:58:21 intersection but it's going to affect the system around

11:58:23 it and call for development to look at that and begin

11:58:27 mitigating their impacts.

11:58:31 State Road impacts.

11:58:32 We talked about mostly it arises out of impact of

11:58:36 intersections.

11:58:38 The roads that you see on red are currently the roads

11:58:42 that are failing, and probably have neighborhood

11:58:46 intrusion at this point or they have backed up

11:58:49 intersections.

11:58:49 Moving forward, development will need to -- that

11:58:54 affects these roadways, I should say, are going to have

11:58:57 to do analysis of how or verify the intersection is

11:59:03 failing, if the intersection is failing then they are

11:59:05 going to have to take a look at the neighborhoods

11:59:08 around and generate a neighborhood offset, neighborhood

11:59:14 traffic solution.

11:59:15 Excuse me.

11:59:16 So in the areas where problems are already occurring,

11:59:19 and the development is going to make that situation

11:59:21 worse, at the intersection is already failing, that's

11:59:24 when they are going to need to take a look at the




11:59:26 impact of the neighborhood, and recommend some traffic

11:59:28 calming solutions.

11:59:30 And it will be funded by a portion of the fee that they

11:59:35 will pay for their mitt mitigation of the

11:59:38 intersections.

11:59:41 Connectivity, this is an area, provision that we put

11:59:43 in, and we felt that it needed additional study.

11:59:47 There were just too many questions about the concept of

11:59:50 requiring a property owner to put a pedestrian

11:59:53 connection off the site, on another parcel that wasn't

11:59:57 his.

11:59:59 There were questions about does he get impacts, will he

12:00:03 get credit if somebody else comes in later on, will

12:00:05 they be able to claim that as part of their pedestrian

12:00:09 connection?

12:00:09 Will the original property owner get compensated?

12:00:11 There were enough questions that every time we tried to

12:00:14 address the question, another question came back, we

12:00:16 get to the point where we say, maybe this isn't the

12:00:18 best way of handling this particular provision.

12:00:20 So we are recommending that it be brought into the

12:00:26 Tampa bicycle pedestrian study, transportation MP or




12:00:30 are getting ready to move on, that study the pedestrian

12:00:34 activity of the primary transit corridors and then come

12:00:36 back with a solution, whether it's back in the

12:00:39 ordinance or a different solution.

12:00:41 But we felt that the questions we were getting, we

12:00:44 could not handle it, in this ordinance in the most

12:00:47 effective way.

12:00:48 So basically we are going to be bringing back to you an

12:00:51 ordinance which includes these items.

12:00:54 The de minimis impacts, the impact fee requirements, no

12:00:57 impact fee zones, we are going to allow for the master

12:01:00 transportation plans and recognize he if those five

12:01:04 things already exist we are going to bring those

12:01:06 forward.

12:01:07 We are going to add the transit primary transit

12:01:10 corridors, and the development along those corridors,

12:01:17 from the transportation studies along the corridors.

12:01:19 We are going to bring in the greater review

12:01:21 requirements in the in-fill and neighborhood area.

12:01:23 That critical intersection requirement, and the

12:01:27 enhanced network impact analysis.

12:01:30 And then we are going to bring in the neighborhood




12:01:34 offset program, or requirements.

12:01:36 Also, we are heard that there was need for something

12:01:40 more user friendly in terms of the permitting, so we

12:01:42 are going to put together the application requirements,

12:01:45 make it easier for people to understand what they need

12:01:49 or how it's going to work, and continue working with

12:01:50 Hillsborough County on the mobility fee.

12:01:54 Complete the bicycle and pedestrian study and bring

12:01:56 back any recommendations from that on connectivity.

12:01:59 We are going to work with the Construction Services

12:02:01 Center on looking at the -- they are going to give us a

12:02:06 record of the permits that have come through in a

12:02:08 90-day period so we can identify which one of those met

12:02:12 the de minimis criteria, which would have gone through

12:02:16 the different review parameters.

12:02:19 Part of that is to get an idea of the work flow.

12:02:21 Part of it transportation will be looking at whether

12:02:24 it's going to require any fees on their part to do any

12:02:28 additional reviews. There was question about the whole

12:02:30 review requirement.

12:02:31 We want to quantify that before the ordinance is

12:02:33 approved.




12:02:34 And we are going to put a provision in the ordinance to

12:02:37 require periodic review.

12:02:39 It's a couple of provisions are new, and we know there

12:02:42 is always a what-if scenario that we may not have

12:02:45 thought about today but an annual review allows to us

12:02:48 look back it -- at it and make changes as needed.

12:02:52 Here is our schedule.

12:02:52 We hope to finalize it within the next month.

12:02:54 That will be the chapter 25 and 17.5.

12:03:00 We will bring back the procedure manuals, hopefully by

12:03:03 August.

12:03:04 It will go to the Planning Commission.

12:03:05 Then probably by late August, early September back for

12:03:08 City Council approval.

12:03:10 And I'm leaving with you this picture of where we are

12:03:12 at today and where we hope to go in terms of our

12:03:14 procedures.

12:03:15 And I know I have gone very quick will you but happen

12:03:18 to answer any questions.

12:03:20 We also have the transportation consultant back here as

12:03:23 well.

12:03:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone from the public like to




12:03:26 speak?

12:03:26 >> Good afternoon now, council.

12:03:36 Randy Baron, 217 west Comanche, president of T.H.A.N.

12:03:40 This is an issue that T.H.A.N. has been working with

12:03:43 Randy on many occasions.

12:03:46 He's given his time to come and brief us, both at a

12:03:51 regular T.H.A.N. meeting and a zoning meeting and we

12:03:54 also had representatives at the workshops.

12:03:59 T.H.A.N., traditionally we have always disliked the TCA

12:04:05 and the fact that there was no way to mitigate

12:04:07 transportation impacts on these developments.

12:04:10 During the comp plan hearings, everyone from T.H.A.N.

12:04:14 encouraged some changes to the TCA, and that got into

12:04:18 the comp plan, and this is now the enabling, I guess,

12:04:21 ordinance for that.

12:04:22 We were concerned that we didn't fully understand the

12:04:25 impact of how the enable ordinance is going to work.

12:04:30 And there were questions that were raised.

12:04:32 I had questions.

12:04:33 Margaret, Sue and some other people had some questions.

12:04:36 Randy has been very generous in giving his time to

12:04:38 answer those questions.




12:04:39 But still until I saw this presentation, I didn't

12:04:42 really fully see the big picture.

12:04:44 I want to commend him for putting together a

12:04:46 presentation that used case studies and examples,

12:04:50 because that's what we really need to see.

12:04:52 We need to see what happens when a development goes on

12:04:55 X parcel and how these procedures are going to impact

12:04:58 that and how those are going.

12:05:04 There are ten pages of questions that were generated,

12:05:06 one in particular that came from T.H.A.N., and I would

12:05:11 bring your attention to number 35 on page 6 which is

12:05:13 the issue of whether or not this is going to encourage

12:05:16 intrusion into neighborhoods.

12:05:19 Which is something of course that's near and dear to

12:05:23 T.H.A.N.

12:05:23 As the response states, yes, there is potential but

12:05:25 that potential would also mean they would have to

12:05:29 satisfy other things like rezonings.

12:05:31 So this council is going to be to a certain degree a

12:05:35 buffer zone to make sure the land use and rezonings, if

12:05:38 they take place, are consistent and protect the

12:05:40 neighborhoods.




12:05:41 We want to make sure that all this additional density

12:05:43 takes place along the corridors, and not into the

12:05:46 neighborhoods.

12:05:46 That was a big concern of ours.

12:05:49 But we also wanted -- and we commend these procedures

12:05:52 that are going to make sure that there are additional

12:05:55 transportation mitigations.

12:05:56 There's nothing worse than having a development go up

12:05:58 and not being able to make a left-hand turn, because

12:06:02 now there's all this additional traffic.

12:06:05 It's happened near me where I fear getting hit because

12:06:12 I can't pull in because of additional traffic.

12:06:13 Lights are failing.

12:06:14 Roads are failing.

12:06:15 We think this is going to go a long way into helping

12:06:18 resolve those issues.

12:06:19 But we also want to make sure that when these enabling

12:06:23 ordinances come before you, and they come in

12:06:25 piecemeal-this one is TCA and transportation manual

12:06:29 will be additional ones -- that council sees the big

12:06:33 picture on how all of these fit together to support the

12:06:36 comp plan policies, and T.H.A.N. is always looking to




12:06:39 make sure that we protect neighborhoods and that any

12:06:45 negative impacts are mitigated in the neighborhoods.

12:06:48 Thank you.

12:06:48 >> Spencer Kass.

12:06:53 This time I'm here not only for Virginia park but as

12:06:56 the East Tampa land use chairman, people of West Tampa

12:06:58 that I have spoken to about this.

12:07:00 I want to start by expressing my gratitude to staff and

12:07:03 the time they spent.

12:07:04 I can tell you, I spent over 12 meetings in -- hours in

12:07:07 meetings with this.

12:07:09 East Tampa and West Tampa will continue with their

12:07:11 exemptions.

12:07:11 I would like to see -- because they are up for

12:07:13 renewal -- are up for renewal before anything is passed

12:07:16 just to make sure we are on the same page for the

12:07:17 renewals for those areas.

12:07:19 I have a couple of issues.

12:07:22 I think we need to look at this holistically with the

12:07:25 rest of the code.

12:07:25 I think legal needs to look at the entire process that

12:07:27 you go through.




12:07:30 Answer it is staff question.

12:07:31 Some of these questions staff says, you know, it's

12:07:33 possible that more time will be required for some

12:07:36 things.

12:07:36 We say -- they say that in a extra time will be

12:07:39 required for other things.

12:07:40 Let's put that in the code.

12:07:41 Let's codify it.

12:07:44 Just like it takes seven days now, let's put it in code

12:07:47 seven days.

12:07:49 You just had a discussion about taking everybody at

12:07:52 their word.

12:07:53 Let's hold people to standards that are easy to

12:07:55 recognize so everybody knows where they stand when they

12:07:57 go in for something.

12:07:58 My concern is, if you go in for change of use under

12:08:01 this, part of the review now is going to be

12:08:03 transportation review.

12:08:04 So an already existing building, I go in for small

12:08:10 change of use that doesn't come before council and all

12:08:11 of a sudden the transportation department starts to get

12:08:13 involved.




12:08:13 I don't see that being a simpler, better process at a

12:08:17 time when we are trying to create jobs.

12:08:19 We have done everything we can to try to create jobs,

12:08:21 to try to get people to work.

12:08:23 And with all due respect to the transportation division

12:08:25 parts of those are going in the opposite direction.

12:08:29 Adds some more bureaucracy, adds some more cost to. Me

12:08:31 that's very concerning.

12:08:32 I don't see overall -- I would much rather see you

12:08:36 delay this and let staff come in with two suggestions

12:08:41 on how to make it easier so we can create jobs in the

12:08:45 city.

12:08:45 Why don't we focus on that?

12:08:46 I don't see any rush for this at this moment.

12:08:49 There's a lot of things city staff says we'll come back

12:08:52 with what the fees will be, come back with simpler

12:08:54 charts.

12:08:54 I think what we need to do is let them come up with the

12:08:57 simpler charts, let them work with legal and the fee

12:09:00 schedule so we can see what the entire process and

12:09:03 procedure will be, schedule another workshop, let them

12:09:05 explain all their changes,.




12:09:11 So R.

12:09:15 >> Thank you.

12:09:16 I think that this is a very good study.

12:09:23 >> Ron Weaver, 401 East Jackson Street.

12:09:26 I want to thank your staff and legal and all of the

12:09:28 hard work that they put into this.

12:09:30 They really listened during those 53 questions and they

12:09:33 gave us good answers on the spot where they could and

12:09:36 they worked on them.

12:09:36 This is a really amazing combination of talent and

12:09:40 willingness to work with all of us on these real

12:09:42 issues.

12:09:44 Quick encouragements as we finish together.

12:09:47 Number one, there not be double dipping where we are

12:09:49 double charged.

12:09:50 I think your staff is sensitive to that.

12:09:51 We asked in those 53 questions to prevent double

12:09:54 dipping and wave to remain sensitive.

12:09:56 Number two is transit oriented development when the

12:09:58 time comes, we don't want to be brittle about transit

12:10:03 oriented development.

12:10:04 We want to of have more incentives as we provided with




12:10:07 additional incentives.

12:10:09 Example, a five in a impact fee zones, there needs tock

12:10:12 a sixth or seventh if they have a sufficient compelling

12:10:16 case with respect to the transit like the train stop,

12:10:20 for example there.

12:10:21 May be a second or third.

12:10:23 Only one or two more emphatic and compelling with

12:10:27 respect to where we do need to emphasize the

12:10:29 concentration of our development to increase ridership

12:10:33 and to enable transit oriented development to make the

12:10:35 whole system work.

12:10:36 Number three is to continue to be mindful of each case

12:10:40 study example so we can figure out if it is more

12:10:43 complex.

12:10:44 We do need more translation into laymen-ese.

12:10:50 With respect to the real community understanding what's

12:10:52 really at stake for them.

12:10:53 For example the brittle quarter mile from transit is

12:10:57 rail?

12:10:58 No.

12:10:58 Does it include bus?

12:11:00 Layers include bus, eights 15 minute.




12:11:02 Does it include the 150 square miles we are adding if

12:11:05 the penny sales tax passes?

12:11:07 Were you calling it the 8-passenger van?

12:11:11 An exist door?

12:11:12 And put you onto the bus eight minutes away, wherever?

12:11:15 Are we being accounting for the realities if the penny

12:11:19 sales tax passes, how would we really fairly treat

12:11:22 folks not to double dip, to encourage transit oriented

12:11:25 development and make sure the system is not brittle

12:11:27 request respect to those incentives.

12:11:29 Thank you.

12:11:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?

12:11:33 Mrs. Saul-Sena.

12:11:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.

12:11:33 My biggest concern is the bicycle and pedestrian

12:11:38 components of this.

12:11:38 I think we all recognize now that transportation needs

12:11:42 to be holistic.

12:11:45 We are talking about complete streets and to assess

12:11:48 costs properly.

12:11:49 That needs to be part of it.

12:11:51 And I see that you are committing to include in the




12:11:52 future.

12:11:53 But I don't think we should move ahead with this until

12:11:56 that's part of the entire dialogue.

12:11:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Mulhern, do you still want to

12:12:03 speak?

12:12:04 >>MARY MULHERN: I'll try to be quit quick.

12:12:07 I want to say ditto from what I heard from the public.

12:12:10 And I would like to us look at this as we go forward.

12:12:12 Mr. Kass' recommendation that we need to look at this

12:12:16 as a way to reduce the bureaucracy and make the process

12:12:22 easier, especially inform individual homeowners, small

12:12:29 business owners, people who are not doing, you know, a

12:12:32 big development of regional impact.

12:12:34 So I think I would like to not see us -- and maybe he's

12:12:38 wrong about this, but I don't want us to increase the

12:12:41 type of projects that are going to have to go through

12:12:47 transportation review.

12:12:48 If they are not doing it now, I would question why we

12:12:51 need to do that.

12:12:53 And then I just want you to think about it.

12:12:56 Unless he's wrong about that.

12:12:57 >>RANDY GOERS: I can clarify that.




12:13:02 The majority of anybody doing a small development,

12:13:05 change of use, small, review is going to be are you a

12:13:09 de minimis?

12:13:10 Are you small enough that you are not going to impact a

12:13:13 roadway?

12:13:13 Where the time is going to increase, is if the property

12:13:17 owner has to do a transportation study because he has

12:13:19 to go get that done.

12:13:20 That's going to increase that time.

12:13:22 And if it's a huge study, like a large study we talked

12:13:25 about the three or four streets or large intersections,

12:13:28 then it will increase staff's time so you do have to

12:13:31 review that.

12:13:32 By and large the kind of developments that Mr. Kass is

12:13:34 speaking about will not increase that time.

12:13:38 Unless he's speaking about a large development, change

12:13:41 of use, small development, mom and pop operation, it

12:13:44 will be ab de minimis model.

12:13:46 >> I would like you to work with him some more, and the

12:13:48 people that are concerned about that, because I don't

12:13:50 think he was just concerned about staff time, he was

12:13:52 concerned about the cost of the applicant, to the




12:13:57 neighbors.

12:13:58 The neighborhood.

12:14:00 The petitioner.

12:14:00 >> I understand you have the most liberal review time

12:14:05 that you had.

12:14:06 That is, just pay that fee and move forward.

12:14:09 Theres no review.

12:14:10 So what we try to do is allow the small developments to

12:14:14 move forward without review.

12:14:16 And your impact roads, and yes, you are going to

12:14:19 have -- yes, we understand.

12:14:23 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like you to convince them that

12:14:25 it's not going to become more onerous.

12:14:28 Then the second things I wanted to say -- and I was

12:14:31 thinking the same thing as Mr. Weaver as I looked at

12:14:33 the map -- and we are talking about the high-speed rail

12:14:36 later today -- is that part of the urban core where we

12:14:42 know we are going to have a station absolutely needs to

12:14:45 be included in this, and I think is the airport

12:14:47 included?

12:14:50 >> Yes, the airport is included.

12:14:51 The high speed rail station will be included.




12:14:53 And future stations are designated, they will be

12:14:58 included.

12:14:58 >> And this is a question for you.

12:14:59 I just glanced through here at the highlighted

12:15:01 questions, or recommendations, and 20-26, and this

12:15:07 relates to transportation oriented development.

12:15:13 This has to dovetail and be based on that whole concept

12:15:15 which I think it is.

12:15:16 I think that's where you are going, right?

12:15:18 Transit oriented development.

12:15:20 But number 2026 says remove the requirement of a

12:15:23 pedestrian connection for development within the

12:15:25 primary transit corridors.

12:15:28 I don't think you can think that way.

12:15:30 You cannot think that you don't need a pedestrian

12:15:33 connection because you are going to have transit.

12:15:35 Everybody has to walk to get to the transit.

12:15:40 So I'm a little concerned that those are not competing,

12:15:44 you know, bikes, pedestrians, cars, parking, buses, and

12:15:51 transit.

12:15:54 We need all of them.

12:15:55 >>RANDY GOERS: We agree.




12:15:58 We haven't removed it from the intent of the city

12:16:00 making sure it happens.

12:16:01 In terms of the ordinance, on this particular ordinance

12:16:04 that's being removed at this time, until we come back

12:16:06 to you with a defensible mechanism that works, and it

12:16:10 may be in this ordinance or maybe in a different

12:16:12 ordinance or different methodology --

12:16:14 >> That doesn't belong in there at all.

12:16:16 If you are going to have a train stop, a bus stop, a

12:16:19 bicycle path, a parking lot, you need to have

12:16:24 pedestrian --

12:16:24 >>RANDY GOERS: It will be provided as part of those.

12:16:26 What I'm saying at this point in time it's not part of

12:16:30 the recommendations in this ordinance.

12:16:31 There are many other ways to implement.

12:16:33 Now if you put it in the ordinance, the questions that

12:16:36 we had in the ordinance was it was difficult to

12:16:40 administrator, because every time we trade to put it

12:16:43 in, in terms of making it a requirement, we retain all

12:16:47 these legal issues that surface, in terms of whether or

12:16:49 not a property owner can really be required to put a

12:16:53 pedestrian connection on someone else's area.




12:16:57 And then whether or not the mechanisms work.

12:17:00 We also had concerns --

12:17:01 >>MARY MULHERN: What about putting it in their own --

12:17:05 >>RANDY GOERS: That is already happening.

12:17:07 Their own property has to put in the there.

12:17:09 >> This doesn't change that?

12:17:10 >> It doesn't change that.

12:17:11 It doesn't change making sure a pedestrian connection

12:17:14 exists in a primary transit corridor or around the

12:17:16 transit stations.

12:17:19 All it changes is this mechanism was not the most

12:17:20 appropriate way to make it work.

12:17:22 And what we wanted to do was come back with the most

12:17:24 appropriate mechanism.

12:17:31 Gene is ready to tell you the study is about ready to

12:17:33 start.

12:17:34 >>CHAIRMAN: We are going to have to wrap it up because

12:17:37 our time is the at 12:00.

12:17:39 It's 12:17.

12:17:40 So council members,.

12:17:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's put this at our next council

12:17:45 meeting under staff report.




12:17:46 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.

12:17:48 I'm not happy whenever that.

12:17:50 Removing that.

12:17:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I move that we place this in our

12:17:54 next City Council meeting under staff reports.

12:17:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.

12:17:56 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.

12:17:58 All in favor?

12:17:59 We need to close the workshops.

12:18:00 >> So moved.

12:18:01 >> Second.

12:18:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to close.

12:18:04 All in favor?

12:18:07 Opposed?

12:18:07 New business.

12:18:07 Mr. Miranda.

12:18:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

12:18:08 I'm very happy to say that the honorable Mayor Pam

12:18:10 Iorio yesterday wrote a letter to the honorable Barack

12:18:15 Obama, president of the United States of America,

12:18:17 please grant Tampa status for the Florida authorized

12:18:21 entry exit for charter flight between the United States




12:18:24 and Cuba, Tampa Bay's home to the many American Cubans

12:18:28 and their asset to direct charter flights out of Tampa

12:18:31 International Airport will be of great convenience to

12:18:33 them.

12:18:34 This is a community supportive of this decision.

12:18:39 Tampa International Airport is one of the best most

12:18:41 efficient airports in the country and would be able to

12:18:43 easily implement this important non-stop charter

12:18:46 service.

12:18:46 As mayor of the City of Tampa, I respectfully request

12:18:50 this decision to be made in order to help Cuban

12:18:53 American families living in the Tampa Bay area and

12:18:55 central Florida.

12:19:02 You can go.

12:19:03 All of you did can go.

12:19:04 >>GWEN MILLER: We have information that we need to

12:19:06 discuss.

12:19:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, there's been a request by

12:19:09 your CRA staff and the CRA will take it up when you

12:19:12 meet that they will be attending an FRA conference in

12:19:15 October when the CRA is scheduled to meet in October

12:19:18 14th.




12:19:19 They are requesting a change to their October meeting.

12:19:22 Council, I discussed it with council member Miller, and

12:19:30 she is suggesting that we can move it to the workshop

12:19:33 day, which is the 28th.

12:19:35 But council would then have to move their workshop to

12:19:37 11:00 and allow the CRA at 9:00 so I guess a motion

12:19:40 would be made to move the workshop items.

12:19:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Why don't we swap the dates out?

12:19:46 >> To have the workshop on the CRA.

12:19:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That would be my motion.

12:19:53 >>MARY MULHERN: Second.

12:19:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.

12:19:55 All in favor of the motion say Aye.

12:19:57 Opposed, Nay.

12:20:01 Receive and file?

12:20:02 >> So moved.

12:20:03 >> Second.

12:20:03 >>GWEN MILLER: We stand adjourned till 5:30.

12:20:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have a 2:00 special discussion

12:20:08 meeting.

12:20:08






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