TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, June 17, 2010
9:00 a.m. Work Session
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09:07:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Tampa City Council is called to order.
09:07:41 Sherry Silk has been in the animal welfare work for 30
09:07:46 years and has been working with Hillsborough County
09:07:47 animal service to help lower euthanasia rate in our
09:07:56 Will you please stand and remain standing for the
09:07:58 pledge of allegiance?
09:07:59 >> During these hard times, help us give freely of
09:08:12 ourselves in ways that make a difference to our
09:08:14 families, to our cities and our nation.
09:08:17 Let us remember the troops serving our country. We
09:08:17 ask for protection for them as well as their families.
09:08:21 Please help them find peace where there is none.
09:08:24 As always, but especially with the tragic Gulf oil
09:08:27 spill, let us remember the words of Ghandi: The
09:08:30 greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be
09:08:32 judged by the way its animals are treated.
09:08:35 I hold that the most helpless of creatures, the more
09:08:39 entitled to be protected by man from the cruelty of
09:08:42 Let us not forget all the creatures suffering every day
09:08:45 at the hands of humankind and let us do all we can to
09:08:47 help their suffering.
09:08:49 (Pledge of Allegiance)
09:09:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Roll call.
09:09:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:09:13 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Here.
09:09:14 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:09:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:09:16 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
09:09:19 >>GWEN MILLER: I would like to put on the record that
09:09:21 Reverend Scott will not be at the morning session.
09:09:23 He will not be at the afternoon session.
09:09:25 And Mr. Dingfelder will not be attending the workshop
09:09:27 this morning.
09:09:31 Put this on file.
09:09:32 And at this time I am going to do Officer of the Month.
09:09:34 And I have a walk-on commendation for Officer of the
09:09:45 Good morning, council.
09:09:54 It's always my pleasure to do Officer of the Month
09:09:55 because we have some great officers in this City of
09:09:58 I am going to let the chief tell you why we have the
09:10:02 Officer of the Month.
09:10:03 >> Chief Castor: It's my pleasure as it is every month
09:10:08 to come before you with one of our best officers.
09:10:10 This month, the officer is Whitney McCormick.
09:10:14 And she just has a nose for finding criminals and
09:10:19 sniffing out crime.
09:10:20 She does an amazing job.
09:10:21 I am going to give you just a couple of examples
09:10:24 because I could literally stand before you all day.
09:10:26 She investigated a domestic dispute that turned into
09:10:30 aggravated assault and false imprisonment, and when
09:10:35 officers arrived on the scene the suspect had fled.
09:10:38 The neighbors received information that he may have
09:10:40 been in his father's business down the road.
09:10:42 Went down, did an initial search of the business and
09:10:44 couldn't find him.
09:10:46 Officer McCormick thought that she smelled cigarette
09:10:48 smoke in there, asked the owner again if they could go
09:10:51 in and search one more time, and she found the
09:10:53 individual hiding in a back room, and she was able to
09:10:56 place him under arrest.
09:10:58 In another incident, an officer put out a BOLO for a
09:11:04 stolen car, a car that had just been stolen from
09:11:07 Lincoln and west Tampa Bay Boulevard.
09:11:08 Officer McCormick thought if I had stolen this car
09:11:13 what path of travel would you go?
09:11:15 She went up and set up covertly in her vehicle to do
09:11:19 Here comes the stolen car.
09:11:22 She actually very maturely for the experience that she
09:11:26 has didn't get into a pursuit with this vehicle right
09:11:29 She called for air service, called for backup units and
09:11:31 was able to box this vehicle in at Armenia and union
09:11:35 and make an arrest without incident and recover the car
09:11:38 with no damage.
09:11:39 So I'm always thankful when there's no pursuits
09:11:42 And then actually two more incidents.
09:11:47 While patrolling the North Boulevard area she works in
09:11:50 West Tampa, she saw a vehicle with the driver and the
09:11:54 passenger weren't wearing their seat belts. she went
09:11:56 to pull the vehicle over.
09:11:57 The passenger jumped out and ran.
09:12:00 She arrested or detained the driver without incident.
09:12:04 Then afterwards, she went around and asked where this
09:12:07 passenger may have run.
09:12:09 Her connections in West Tampa, she was able to get an
09:12:11 apartment location where they said he ran into.
09:12:15 She went in, talked to the owner of the apartment, or
09:12:19 the resident in the apartment.
09:12:20 She said, sure, you can come in here and look, and
09:12:23 ended up arresting the passenger who had 15 grams of
09:12:26 marijuana and $18,000 in his pocket.
09:12:29 She called for a canine unit, came in, searched the
09:12:33 rest of the apartment, and found an additional $27,400
09:12:37 hidden in a closet in there.
09:12:39 So there was a total of 15 grams of marijuana and
09:12:43 $45,400 in cash that she seized off of a simple traffic
09:12:49 Also, she did another traffic stop along Main Street
09:12:53 for a simple traffic violation.
09:12:55 Instead of just writing a citation and letting that go
09:12:59 she noticed in the pickup truck that there were several
09:13:01 parts of F-250 trucks, and we had gone through a rash
09:13:05 of having those types of trucks stolen.
09:13:08 So she detained the driver and the passenger.
09:13:13 That simple traffic stop turned into a
09:13:18 multi-jurisdictional investigation where individuals
09:13:21 were stealing these trucks, stripping them and selling
09:13:23 the parts and sending them to various areas throughout
09:13:27 the United States.
09:13:29 Again, I could go on and on about the different
09:13:32 incidents that she's been involved in.
09:13:34 We have what's called daily incident log, and it
09:13:38 highlights all of the larger incidents, more important
09:13:43 incidents that happen in the city.
09:13:44 And just about all the ones that come out of the West
09:13:46 Tampa area involve officer McCormick and her partner
09:13:50 officer in those incidents.
09:13:56 She's invaluable to the Tampa Police Department and has
09:13:58 less than two years experience with us.
09:14:00 But we have great expectations and I am very proud to
09:14:04 present her as the Officer of the Month.
09:14:06 Thank you.
09:14:07 [ Applause ]
09:14:13 >>GWEN MILLER: Officer McCormick, we would like to
09:14:15 present this commendation from the City Council, to say
09:14:19 all of the great things Chief Castor said, I will not
09:14:22 read it to you, I just present it to you.
09:14:24 At this time we are going to have the private sector
09:14:25 give you some gifts and I will start with Charlie's
09:14:32 I have one for you.
09:14:33 >> I have four ticket for you.
09:14:49 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepps Towing service.
09:14:52 By the way, we just celebrated our 50th
09:14:56 On behalf of Jim and Judy and Todd Stepp for a job very
09:15:01 well done, we would like to present this statute to
09:15:04 And we also have a gift certificate to Lee Roy Selmons.
09:15:08 So enjoy it.
09:15:14 >> I'm Frank DeSoto, represent Bill Currie Ford Lincoln
09:15:21 We would like to congratulate you on a job well done
09:15:24 and presents you with this watch.
09:15:26 Thank you very much.
09:15:36 >> Greg style.
09:15:39 On behalf of the Tampa PBA we are so proud of all of
09:15:45 our officers.
09:15:45 This is a $100 gift certificate for you.
09:15:47 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Need a third hand?
09:15:53 You are going to be full here before you go.
09:15:55 More ways than one.
09:15:57 We have a gift certificate for you to Bern's steakhouse
09:16:01 so you can go enjoy yourself over there at Bern's, and
09:16:05 before you go to Bern's, because you don't want to be
09:16:07 too full you can go to Bryn Allen studios and have your
09:16:11 picture taken and have a nice photographic package.
09:16:14 On behalf of rigatoni's you can go and have lunch so
09:16:19 after chasing all these guys around.
09:16:22 Go to rigatoni's and enjoy yourself with a nice lunch.
09:16:26 On behalf of all of these individuals we are
09:16:28 contributing to the police department and the officers
09:16:30 of the month.
09:16:30 We say congratulations.
09:16:34 [ Applause ]
09:16:35 >> I just want to say thank you, Chief Castor and City
09:16:45 Council, for having me here, and obviously it's one
09:16:53 thing that only I get to stand up here but it's not an
09:16:56 individual effort, it's a team effort on an everyday
09:17:00 I just want to say thank you.
09:17:01 >> Congratulations.
09:17:04 [ Applause ]
09:17:05 >>GWEN MILLER: At this time council has another
09:17:16 commendation, a walk-on.
09:17:22 I would like to read this commendation to Mary Cooper,
09:17:44 in recollection knicks of Mary Cooper's continued
09:17:48 involvement with young women and young men whereby
09:17:51 character, education, community service and scholarship
09:17:53 programs, Tampa City Council would like to take this
09:17:58 opportunity to commend you for your years of dedicated
09:18:02 service for having the vision to create an avenue for
09:18:04 which young people can grow in areas such as
09:18:09 self-awareness, of those less fortunate and need to
09:18:13 seek higher education.
09:18:14 Because of you the longest African-American program in
09:18:19 our area still lives on, the Tampa City Council sends
09:18:22 best wishes to you and hope you continue to move
09:18:24 forward in all your future endeavors.
09:18:28 [ Applause ]
09:18:33 >> Good morning.
09:18:34 And I would like to also say thank you.
09:18:38 But I wanted to share with you my last message for this
09:18:44 year, and it goes like this.
09:18:46 Just a minute.
09:18:47 As another successful continuing year comes to an end,
09:18:51 I must thank and applaud my dedicated parents who are
09:18:56 so diligently assisting the organization by attending
09:18:59 all practice, rehearsal, taking roll, ordering
09:19:03 T-shirts, researching and communicating details,
09:19:06 providing refreshments and more.
09:19:09 This particular group effort on behalf of our dedicated
09:19:13 parents is encouraging and forthright.
09:19:21 May he continue to bless you and your efforts are
09:19:28 appreciated by the voice for unity in education and the
09:19:32 Tampa cotillion debutante organization.
09:19:38 It is important to work with parents to a common goal
09:19:40 by press impressing upon our students the need for
09:19:45 adequate everyday life as a way to further the idea
09:19:50 that practice makes perfect.
09:19:52 Therefore, students and members of the Tampa cotillion
09:19:58 debutante organization will have an opportunity to
09:19:59 improve their dining, social and professional etiquette
09:20:03 by attending the school of etiquette during the summer,
09:20:06 for a certificate of completion.
09:20:07 The school of etiquette is provided for members of the
09:20:11 Tampa cotillion debutante organization but is also open
09:20:15 to the public as well.
09:20:17 As a graduate of Howard W. Blake high school, Bethune
09:20:24 Cookman college, Florida A&M university, it has always
09:20:26 been my goal to return our young ladies and young men
09:20:29 to an era of politeness and professionalism.
09:20:35 And then as it is now it takes a community effort.
09:20:38 It starts with our parents in the community, employing,
09:20:42 demanding and expecting nothing short of greatness.
09:20:50 Positiveness in the community increases by creating an
09:20:52 environment of sharing, caring, forgiving,
09:20:57 Those words are what I have taught 31 years by.
09:21:03 I just used to wear a little sign around my neck so
09:21:06 students would remember this is what we have to do
09:21:08 every day.
09:21:08 Not some days, but every day.
09:21:11 With consistency and wholeheartedness, we can rebuild
09:21:15 and increase opportunity for our children as a
09:21:19 And I thank you so much for this.
09:21:22 I thank you.
09:21:27 [ Applause ]
09:21:32 This is miss Coretta green.
09:21:35 She's our junior queen for this year.
09:21:37 And this is -- help me -- this is one of our queens for
09:21:46 this year representing the whole organization.
09:21:53 And we have Antonio, one of our magnificent escorts.
09:22:00 And we have one of our dedicated parents.
09:22:09 I couldn't do it without them because all of the
09:22:11 parents volunteered their time.
09:22:14 Okay, no one gets paid.
09:22:16 This is volunteer time.
09:22:19 And my daughter Sherri, who is my legs a lot of times
09:22:25 because I am unable to really move like I used to when
09:22:28 I was 16.
09:22:34 And very helpful young man.
09:22:39 And I just appreciate all of them so much.
09:22:41 And I thank you again for this award.
09:22:49 Thank you.
09:22:50 [ Applause ]
09:22:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It's my pleasure to introduce the
09:23:02 head of the MOSI museum, Mr. Wit Ostrenko to announce
09:23:10 the 2010 national Hispanic scientist of the year award.
09:23:16 Thank you, Wit.
09:23:17 >> WIT OSTRENKO: The people that precede us, makes us
09:23:29 very proud of being a citizen living in the City of
09:23:33 For 41 years and working with young people in this
09:23:35 community, that's what makes the City of Tampa, Tampa.
09:23:41 And we are doing our part
09:23:44 We are announcing this year our tenth Hispanic
09:23:47 scientist of the year to encourage young people to
09:23:54 become engaged in the world of science, and just stay
09:23:56 in school and graduate.
09:23:57 The Hispanic population still has a 30% dropout rate.
09:24:02 And this year, we are announcing Dr. Dan Arvizu, who is
09:24:12 the first Hispanic to become head of a U.S. laboratory.
09:24:17 He's head of the Alternative Energies Laboratory in
09:24:22 And we do this because these people become mentors for
09:24:26 young people.
09:24:28 All of these scientists start out very humble
09:24:31 beginnings, they start out just as kids as any other
09:24:35 In fact, one of our children that came of the 1300 kids
09:24:40 that are coming to listen to the scientist, a teacher
09:24:44 came in and said, she asked Frank Calderra, the first
09:24:52 Hispanic astronaut, to go over and say a few kids at
09:24:55 middle school, so Frank sat down next to him and said,
09:25:04 "You can be an astronaut."
09:25:06 And got up and left.
09:25:09 The next year that teacher reported back to us that
09:25:11 that one comment changed that kid's life.
09:25:17 And he wants to be an astronaut and I have no doubt
09:25:20 that he could possibly be.
09:25:22 But it changed his life.
09:25:26 So that's why we are up here and we had 13,000 kids gob
09:25:32 through and talk directly to the wonderful Hispanic
09:25:35 scientist as a role model for them.
09:25:38 I want to introduce you to the chairman of this year's
09:25:41 event, Mr. Mario Garcia who is a board member.
09:25:48 >> I want to the say a few things.
09:25:49 First thank you for your past support.
09:25:52 Mark down October 16th, our event.
09:25:54 I will be following up with a letter to personally
09:25:57 invite each and every one of you.
09:26:00 We are in our tenth year.
09:26:02 Last year was our best year ever.
09:26:03 We raised more money than ever before, and in the worst
09:26:07 economy since the great depression is what they say.
09:26:10 That's exciting.
09:26:11 We sold out 81% of our actual dollars that we were able
09:26:15 to get in the door.
09:26:19 So we are helping more people.
09:26:21 We are helping more kids understanding the whole
09:26:25 statistical thing coming from a Hispanic background.
09:26:28 I know first hand that these kids need help.
09:26:32 So again I just want to thank you and hopefully your
09:26:36 continued support as well.
09:26:39 Oh, I'm sorry, Bright House.
09:26:43 They have been our sponsor since day one and they
09:26:45 continue to be our main sponsor, and we thank them very
09:26:48 much as well.
09:26:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Did Ms. Azorin create this program?
09:27:00 >> Yes, happens to be our chairman of the board.
09:27:02 >> Have we recognized her for this initiative?
09:27:05 I don't believe we have.
09:27:06 I think that's something that council should do.
09:27:09 It's been so significant, and ten years is very
09:27:12 >> National recognition, in fact, probably one of the
09:27:17 main reasons why MOSI won the national award, the
09:27:21 highest award that a museum can receive in this country
09:27:25 out of 17,500 museums.
09:27:27 So City of Tampa is a recipient of that award.
09:27:30 So that will be great to do that.
09:27:32 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Perhaps closer to the date of the
09:27:36 actual dinner we can do a commendation.
09:27:38 I make a motion.
09:27:40 The Thursday closest to October 16th that we
09:27:42 recognize Miss Maruchi Azorin Blanco for her
09:27:51 Will she still be chairman of the board?
09:27:53 >> Yes.
09:27:54 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:27:56 All in favor say Aye.
09:27:59 Mr. Miranda?
09:28:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I want to say thank you to wit and
09:28:02 all the good work your museum is doing and your
09:28:05 national recognition is really appreciative of all the
09:28:10 hard work of yourself and staff, the people who run the
09:28:13 fund-raising activities and the amount of moneys that
09:28:15 go into these funds.
09:28:16 I really appreciate it.
09:28:17 >>GWEN MILLER: We now have a commendation to Miss
09:28:25 Brickhouse from Mr. Dingfelder.
09:28:38 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Good morning, council.
09:28:45 We have a commendation for one of Miss Brickhouse's
09:28:48 employees, and she's here to accept it on behalf of
09:28:50 Robert Corley.
09:28:54 We have a problem in our community that all communities
09:28:56 have, tragically sometimes they get hit and killed on
09:29:01 the road and that sort of thing.
09:29:03 I don't mean to be a downer this morning.
09:29:05 But what happens is a lot of times the families never
09:29:09 have closure, because they never know what happened to
09:29:14 their animals.
09:29:17 The solid waste department, probably in conjunction
09:29:19 with the department of public works, you know, gets the
09:29:22 animal off the road and disposes of them without really
09:29:27 If it doesn't have tags they don't know who to contact.
09:29:30 Apparently that's Mr. Corley's unfortunate job to deal
09:29:34 with the animals and dispose of it. Anyway, I am going
09:29:37 to let these guys tell the rest of the story, and
09:29:42 Sherri silk is the director of the Humane Society, and
09:29:48 I will let you talk.
09:29:48 >>TANYA BRICKHOUSE: It gives me great honor to stand
09:29:51 here on behalf of Robert Corley.
09:29:54 I will just share with you that a simple suggestion
09:29:57 drop into the director's suggestion box.
09:30:01 Robert Corley has been with the city since 2007, has
09:30:03 been with the department of solid waste for ten months,
09:30:07 and kept seeing well kept animals that he was having to
09:30:11 pick up and dispose of, and he said, seems like to me
09:30:16 somebody really cares about these animals.
09:30:17 They were well taken care of.
09:30:19 So he dropped a suggestion in the suggestion box.
09:30:21 And out of that came this partnership with the Humane
09:30:26 I made a simple call to say, hey, one of my employees
09:30:28 has come up with an idea.
09:30:30 Can you provide us with a pet scan ID so if it's got a
09:30:34 Chip in it then we can connect the pet with the family
09:30:37 and help bring closure, as councilman Dingfelder
09:30:42 So what Sherri and I wanted to do was kind of
09:30:45 demonstrate how simple this is and how a simple piece
09:30:47 of paper in a box could do to make a difference in the
09:30:49 lives of people and in this community.
09:30:53 Let me introduce rusty.
09:30:56 We actually did a micro Chip in rusty.
09:31:00 About the size of a grain of rice.
09:31:03 About 15.
09:31:04 And sometimes collars do fall off.
09:31:06 So he was microchipped yesterday.
09:31:08 So Mr. Gore Corley, it comes up with a number and phone
09:31:15 number and the families can be notified.
09:31:18 There's nothing worse than looking every day for your
09:31:20 lost dog and you will never find it.
09:31:22 As John said it is closure.
09:31:24 So what a wonderful thing for your employee to come up
09:31:26 with that lovely suggestion because it is closure for
09:31:29 people that really love their pets.
09:31:30 We are happy to do it for you.
09:31:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: And will present a commendation on
09:31:38 behalf of City Council to Mr. Corley.
09:31:40 We want to encourage all city employees to keep coming
09:31:43 up with ideas.
09:31:45 Thank you.
09:31:47 [ Applause ]
09:31:49 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I would like to ask a question.
09:31:52 In the past six months, I have had two dogs in my
09:31:55 district, one about a week ago, ten days ago, and I
09:32:00 tried to get the dog picked up and I couldn't.
09:32:03 He have day I go by there.
09:32:04 In fact, I had an interview with ABC news and the
09:32:10 gentleman happens to live up in Grand Hampton.
09:32:12 He said I went by and saw this dog, and my son was with
09:32:16 It's somebody's pet.
09:32:19 And two weeks later the dog is still there.
09:32:22 Of course, he's eaten up and everything else.
09:32:29 And who is Mr. Corley?
09:32:32 >> Mr. Corley is in my department, but the area near
09:32:35 Grand Hampton is serviced by the county.
09:32:38 And so it falls outside of our area.
09:32:40 Watt we did do on that case was we did notify the
09:32:45 I'll follow up and see what happened in that.
09:32:47 But if I am hearing you correctly the dog is still
09:32:51 there so we need to do some follow-up with that.
09:32:54 But, unfortunately, Grand Hampton falls out side of the
09:32:57 City of Tampa's solid waste area responsibility.
09:33:01 And so we try to make sure that we partner with the
09:33:03 county to identify them when we get the calls in.
09:33:08 Let me follow up on that and see where the breakdown
09:33:11 Because that area is where they built the new shopping
09:33:14 And I know as a requirement, they had to put sidewalks
09:33:16 in according to the city code.
09:33:19 So the city must have some jurisdiction there.
09:33:21 >>TANYA BRICKHOUSE: Not the area of solid waste.
09:33:29 That is covered by the county.
09:33:30 So I am going to follow up to see if there's some other
09:33:33 mechanism in the city.
09:33:34 >> Okay, thank you.
09:33:35 >> We now go to our workshop.
09:33:40 Let's open our workshop.
09:33:41 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So moved to open the workshop.
09:33:48 >>GWEN MILLER: All of them.
09:33:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yes.
09:33:50 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
09:33:51 All in favor?
09:33:53 Item number 4.
09:33:54 Who is going to talk about it?
09:33:59 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Because these workshops might go
09:34:02 more quickly than the time that's allocated, I would
09:34:05 ask that any of the staff people watching who perhaps
09:34:10 are for the 10:00 or 10:30 to pay attention so they can
09:34:13 come over here.
09:34:14 >>GWEN MILLER: And please come over so you can be on
09:34:18 the program.
09:34:19 >>MARTIN SHELBY: This was, I believe, set at the
09:34:24 request of -- the original motion was made by council
09:34:28 member Dingfelder.
09:34:30 Seconded by councilman Miranda on April 1st.
09:34:32 And this was on -- I believe it wags set at the request
09:34:38 of letters that City Council members had received from
09:34:44 T.H.A.N., I believe.
09:34:45 I believe there's some representatives from T.H.A.N.
09:34:48 As we speak.
09:34:49 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Does everyone have a copy of the
09:34:59 Should I get more copies?
09:35:00 >>GWEN MILLER: Who is going to speak, Mr. Shelby?
09:35:04 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It's council's motion.
09:35:08 If you want me to speak, I can.
09:35:09 >>GWEN MILLER: And then have public comment.
09:35:12 >> Get somebody to make copies of that, if I can.
09:35:22 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, as you know, since the early
09:35:30 1990s, the Florida Supreme Court and the courts of
09:35:33 the state have moved towards a more judicial process
09:35:39 for rezoning and for land use issues.
09:35:43 And you know the issue of property rights has gotten
09:35:48 stronger over the years, and to let you know from your
09:35:53 own experience you can observe that we are moving away
09:35:58 from the quasi-judicial and become seemingly more
09:36:03 judicial each year, every time that requirements are
09:36:07 placed upon City Council.
09:36:08 That being said, council, there are certain procedural
09:36:13 due process rights that have to be afforded for all
09:36:18 parties who have legal standing in these proceedings.
09:36:21 And part of my job, and the job of the legal
09:36:24 department, is to ensure that whatever decision that
09:36:27 council makes is legally sustainable.
09:36:30 And one of the things that we need to avoid is
09:36:33 infringing upon any party's due process rights.
09:36:35 With regard to the time constraints that council has
09:36:39 placed upon the dates, I should point out that in
09:36:47 council's rules currently, it states that requests for
09:36:51 additional time may only be granted if the party making
09:36:54 the request establishes to the satisfaction of council
09:36:57 that additional time is necessary to afford procedural
09:37:01 due process.
09:37:02 Council members shall, by majority vote, grant or deny
09:37:06 the request and determine if additional time is
09:37:11 And the concern, council, that needs to be addressed is
09:37:16 what rights are afforded by granting additional time,
09:37:21 what rights are infringed by those who don't get
09:37:27 additional time, and the other thing that I would like
09:37:29 to stress to council is that we always say that your
09:37:34 decision has to be based on competent, substantial
09:37:40 And what that means is when we say substantial, we all
09:37:42 know what substantial S.but when we say competent, what
09:37:45 do we mean?
09:37:47 It has to be relevant.
09:37:48 It has to be material to the subject matter, to be able
09:37:51 to make a decision.
09:37:53 And as you know, if a party stands up -- or not even a
09:38:03 If a speaker stands up at the lecturn and said, 200 of
09:38:08 us have met together in a meeting, and we voted, and we
09:38:13 unanimously oppose this project, in a court of law that
09:38:20 has zero legal effect, and the public, I believe, needs
09:38:27 to understand that.
09:38:28 When it comes to you making a decision.
09:38:34 What the distinction is just the number of people or
09:38:36 the opinions doesn't matter.
09:38:39 It has to be factually based.
09:38:41 So if the time is granted to anybody, it would be my
09:38:48 recommendation -- of course, I can't advise people
09:38:51 legally, but the important thing for people to know is
09:38:56 just saying that you are opposed to something, or
09:38:57 having a large number of people opposed to something,
09:38:59 has absolutely no legal weight because it's not
09:39:04 material to your decision-making process to the issue.
09:39:11 I see councilman Dingfelder raising his hand.
09:39:13 But what I am suggesting, council, is that when people
09:39:17 do get up here to speak before council, that what they
09:39:22 do is they focus their energies on facts that support
09:39:27 their positions, that they don't get up there and make
09:39:31 a conclusion but present council with facts upon which
09:39:34 you can rely on to base your decisions so that whatever
09:39:37 decisions you make is upheld and sustained in court.
09:39:41 So that being said, that's my it would be cents.
09:39:46 I hadn't prepared to make a presentation, but this
09:39:51 being a request by the community, I'm happy to hear
09:39:55 council's discussion on the matter.
09:39:57 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
09:39:58 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you.
09:40:00 We have a letter here from T.H.A.N. and looks like some
09:40:02 representatives from T.H.A.N.
09:40:05 T.H.A.N. requested council neighborhoods of record,
09:40:08 those listed on the neighborhood registry, ten minutes
09:40:10 to present the neighborhood's views and facts from the
09:40:15 neighborhood instead of the current allotment of three
09:40:20 Mr. Shelby, right now, we go out of our way to identify
09:40:23 the neighborhood where the particular petition resides,
09:40:28 and to make sure that that neighborhood association
09:40:31 president and officer gets specific notice, over and
09:40:36 above the surrounding circle.
09:40:38 >> Yes.
09:40:38 >> We must do that for a reason.
09:40:42 But at the end of the day, I don't believe that our
09:40:45 rules even speak to the fact that the that particular
09:40:51 neighborhood representative gets any particular amount
09:40:55 of time.
09:40:57 If the neighborhood president shows up, he or she would
09:41:00 get the same three minutes as anybody else who wants to
09:41:04 I think that there is a difference between a
09:41:10 neighborhood, okay, an affected neighborhood, and just,
09:41:15 you know, any citizen who happens to live in the area
09:41:17 who wants to speak for or against that particular
09:41:20 That's one of the reasons that we have encouraged
09:41:22 neighborhoods over the last 20 years.
09:41:26 And I give mayor Freedman and that council back then a
09:41:30 lot of kudos for starting those programs and working
09:41:35 and help grow T.H.A.N., develop T.H.A.N. and all the
09:41:37 other neighborhoods that are part of T.H.A.N.
09:41:41 I think the request if not ten minutes, maybe five
09:41:48 minutes or seven minutes or something like that.
09:41:49 It's very reasonable.
09:41:52 If the neighborhood association asks for it.
09:41:56 Obviously we are not going to start or stop the
09:41:57 proceedings and say, you know, the neighborhood
09:42:00 association must be here for their ten allotted
09:42:04 But if the neighborhood association appears, if they
09:42:06 have been noticed, as the recognized neighborhood
09:42:11 association, if that neighborhood association officer
09:42:14 appears, and if they desire that ten minutes.
09:42:16 The other thing I wanted to mention in response to your
09:42:18 comments is the neighborhood associations are much more
09:42:21 sophisticated in terms of the evidence that they
09:42:24 typically are capable of putting together and
09:42:27 presenting because most of them have been through it
09:42:30 And as compared to the average neighbor next door who
09:42:36 ho may get up and say, I don't like it, I don't want
09:42:39 So in some ways by doing this and encouraging the
09:42:42 neighborhood association to be the spokesperson for
09:42:44 that surrounding area, maybe the quality of comments
09:42:49 and testimony that we receive would actually improve
09:42:54 with this, and maybe if the neighborhood association
09:42:56 has their ten allotted minutes, then maybe the
09:42:59 individual neighbors might not have as much quality in
09:43:03 testimony might not feel the need to get up and say
09:43:06 their piece, because the neighborhood association has
09:43:09 already done it for them.
09:43:10 So I think it's something worth thinking about.
09:43:12 I think we are short two important members today who
09:43:14 really should be here to further this discussion, so I
09:43:19 don't know if we need to take any kind of vote or
09:43:22 direction on it.
09:43:24 I would like to see us have a full board before we get
09:43:26 to that point.
09:43:27 But we obviously want to hear from folks, too.
09:43:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Saul-Sena.
09:43:31 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
09:43:32 I agree with everything that Mr. Dingfelder just said,
09:43:35 particularly about the experience at this point that
09:43:39 neighborhood organizations have in recognizing how to
09:43:43 present appropriate testimony that's fact-based, that
09:43:46 presents supportable evidence.
09:43:48 And the way that it works now, they have to orchestrate
09:43:53 a very complex presentation so that this person's three
09:43:58 minutes limits of testimony and that person makes three
09:44:00 minutes worth of testimony, that some neighborhoods
09:44:02 have an individual who is particularly gifted in
09:44:05 presenting their words, and they are currently limited.
09:44:09 And I apologize.
09:44:10 I have a sore throat.
09:44:12 I would like to hear from the neighborhoods.
09:44:15 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Also, council, any speaker has the
09:44:19 ability to use the speaker waiver form.
09:44:21 And if there is a substantial number of people who wish
09:44:23 to waive their time and -- granted they do have to be
09:44:26 here, but any speaker can speak up to ten minutes if
09:44:29 they have seven additional people who wish to waive
09:44:32 their time.
09:44:33 My question, playing devil's advocate on this, I don't
09:44:38 have a position strongly except for the fact from a
09:44:41 legal standpoint.
09:44:45 A neighborhood association now, the way it's
09:44:48 constructed, is carefully crafted to avoid making --
09:44:55 giving them, in effect, making them a legal party.
09:44:58 In other words, making them President Obama tensionally
09:45:00 liable as well.
09:45:03 If they have legal standing.
09:45:04 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Liable for what?
09:45:12 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: City attorney.
09:45:13 I think where Marty is going with that is as we develop
09:45:17 different procedures we have heard from the
09:45:19 neighborhood associations that they don't want to have
09:45:23 special rights, so to speak, that would allow them to
09:45:26 be a party to a proceeding that would allow them to
09:45:29 essentially receive a slap suit if somebody was on the
09:45:36 other end of a slap suit, and I'm not sure that this is
09:45:39 what we are talking about would do that, but there is a
09:45:42 consideration here in that regard, and I think they
09:45:49 would have organizational standing if they were
09:45:50 organized and had members that were affected from a
09:45:53 legal standpoint, if your members are affected, as an
09:45:56 organization can step in and represent their rights.
09:45:59 So I think we can work through those issues.
09:46:01 In line with where Marty was going, my one comment
09:46:05 would be that if we are going to allow really organized
09:46:10 opposition to projects, to have additional time, which
09:46:14 is fine -- many jurisdictions do it.
09:46:18 We have looked at different places.
09:46:19 It's not uncommon for organized opposition to have a
09:46:24 set amount of time equivalent to or in the typical role
09:46:29 of the applicant's process.
09:46:31 So if the applicant got, say, ten minutes to present
09:46:33 their case, then the organized opposition might get ten
09:46:38 minutes and then the applicant might get to close with
09:46:40 five minutes rebuttal.
09:46:42 Something like that is not uncommon.
09:46:44 That does two things.
09:46:45 One, it protects the due process rights of the
09:46:47 opposition as well.
09:46:49 There's some case law that they have certain rights to
09:46:51 be able to put on evidence and cross-examine
09:46:53 potentially witnesses under certain limited
09:46:56 circumstances, so that kind of procedure would be
09:46:59 The only caution would be we would need to make that
09:47:02 available really to any organized opposition.
09:47:04 I think in practice it would be the neighborhood
09:47:09 association's, but if there was a project that the
09:47:10 Sierra Club had that they were particularly opposed to,
09:47:12 or condo association or something like that, it's not a
09:47:15 registered neighborhood group, I think we would have an
09:47:18 obligation to give them some more treatment.
09:47:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
09:47:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I like what I'm hearing from both
09:47:27 of our learned counsel.
09:47:32 Maybe it's a similar process to what we spoke to a
09:47:34 little while ago that's already part of our process,
09:47:38 like a petitioner.
09:47:38 Petitioner feels the need for additional minutes.
09:47:42 They let us know in advance, let council nobody in
09:47:47 advance or the clerk or whatever, and then, you know,
09:47:50 you would deal with it.
09:47:52 So maybe there's an option there that a recognized
09:47:58 organization, be it an affected neighborhood
09:48:00 organization, or an alternative organization, Sierra
09:48:03 Club, or FCAN or what have you, might, you know, really
09:48:10 want to be involved, realize they need additional time,
09:48:12 and they would be in a position to ask for that ten
09:48:15 Not necessarily as a matter of right, but as a matter
09:48:19 of council prerogative.
09:48:21 And I think that's a step in the right direction.
09:48:26 I think -- in some cases it's really warranted.
09:48:31 And other cases don't necessarily.
09:48:33 So maybe it's sort of at council's discretion.
09:48:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And I appreciate, councilman
09:48:41 Dingfelder, what you said, because I think this council
09:48:44 has been very sensitive to the needs of all parties
09:48:49 when it comes to affording them due process rights.
09:48:52 And council, now that I have tried to ensure that the
09:48:56 process is fair, and sometimes even when the meeting
09:48:59 goes long, and sometimes when it may seem difficult to
09:49:03 want to do it, this council recognizes the necessity of
09:49:06 ensuring that the process is fair.
09:49:08 And when the request is made for more time, council
09:49:14 generally gives good consideration to the parties.
09:49:18 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But right now only the petitioner
09:49:20 has the right to do that.
09:49:21 >>MARTIN SHELBY: No.
09:49:22 No, actually, the rule which I read to you is based on
09:49:25 request for additional time may only be granted if the
09:49:28 party making the request -- and I guess what that says
09:49:30 is if you want to recognize, we could change that rule
09:49:34 to be entity or person or whatever.
09:49:36 But when we say party we mean the person up there.
09:49:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I can't remember any time in my
09:49:41 years when any individual has even thought to ask for
09:49:44 that additional time.
09:49:45 On their own.
09:49:49 Until this second I didn't know they were allowed.
09:49:51 So if I didn't know it, council didn't know it --
09:49:55 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Well, the rules, by the way, are
09:49:57 available on the city's Web site for all the parties.
09:50:01 And I'm not saying that to be facetious.
09:50:04 I'm just saying for people to know.
09:50:06 One of the keys to success for anybody who makes a
09:50:08 presentation before City Council is to know what the
09:50:11 parameters are.
09:50:13 And, Mr. Dingfelder, my only observation would be, I'm
09:50:17 concerned about the people, not just large equities or
09:50:21 organizations but the people who live right next door,
09:50:24 or the people who live within the 250 feet who do have
09:50:27 a legal standing and do have the notice.
09:50:30 If anybody might be entitled to more time to make their
09:50:34 case, maybe those people as well, rather than -- it's
09:50:38 nice to have the neighborhood organization speak on
09:50:40 your behalf, but they may not.
09:50:42 And the thing is, in fairness, I think that those
09:50:50 people who do have legal standing who may have their
09:50:53 property rights affected also need the opportunity to
09:50:55 have more time and I think council affords them that,
09:50:57 and it may be a fact that they don't know it.
09:51:01 But again my point is that to take more time doesn't
09:51:04 necessarily do anything unless that time is well spent
09:51:07 to afford --
09:51:14 >>GWEN MILLER: But on occasions we have had people in
09:51:17 the public ask speaking, can I have a minute or two
09:51:20 And we have granted that.
09:51:21 So I don't think we need to change it to ten minutes,
09:51:24 because ten minutes is a long time.
09:51:26 If you keep talking, you are going to repeat yourself
09:51:28 and you are going to be saying the same thing.
09:51:30 But if you are speaking and you have something else I
09:51:32 need to say, and we give them the permission to speak,
09:51:35 one minute, two minutes, I think that is all we need.
09:51:39 Because like you say, ten minutes.
09:51:41 And if we have 30 people who want to be speak ten
09:51:46 It might be requested.
09:51:48 You don't know if 30 people might say, we I want 10
09:51:52 That's a long time.
09:51:53 But if they ask for more when they are speaking and we
09:51:57 always do grant it why can't we grant it?
09:52:01 >>MARY MULHERN: That's what I was going to say except
09:52:03 my recollection is oftentimes we are asked, but I think
09:52:06 we generally often get guidance from legal telling us,
09:52:11 you know, explaining to us what you have just been
09:52:14 saying about whether people have standing, and who
09:52:18 should be afforded due process.
09:52:20 So I think that has come up many times.
09:52:22 But my recollection is that usually we don't -- a lot
09:52:28 of times we -- most of the time we don't grant it
09:52:31 because of the fact that of what everything that Mr.
09:52:34 Shelby just explained to us.
09:52:35 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: If I may.
09:52:40 Chip Fletcher, city attorney.
09:52:42 If you were to afford everyone that came up ten minutes
09:52:44 you would be here is a very long time.
09:52:47 >> Sure will.
09:52:48 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: So I think if you all were to ask
09:52:52 us to draft something or what we would recommend if Mr.
09:52:56 Shelby would put it into your procedures would be for
09:52:58 an organized opposition group to receive the extra
09:53:03 There are jurisdictions that set out a certain amount
09:53:05 of time total for opposition testimony in which case
09:53:10 all these people that you are describing that might
09:53:12 have a concern about a project have to figure out how
09:53:15 to come together and coordinate and collaborate their
09:53:17 presentation within the set amount of time.
09:53:22 I don't hear that's what you all are looking for, but
09:53:25 that is one method that is often used.
09:53:29 What perhaps we could look at as a hybrid where an
09:53:33 organized opposition group like the neighborhood
09:53:35 association or some other group with standing could ask
09:53:38 for and receive the ten minutes to put on a cohesive
09:53:43 presentation over that period of time, and then members
09:53:45 of the public would still have their three minutes.
09:53:49 That would be an option that I think would meet the due
09:53:52 process requirements.
09:53:53 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The other thing I would be concerned
09:53:56 about following up, and I understand there are
09:53:58 jurisdictions who do this, to allow 15 minutes for the
09:54:01 opposition, the question is what you say to the next
09:54:04 door neighbor who lives immediately adjacent and is
09:54:08 there at the 16th minute and doesn't have the
09:54:12 opportunity to speak?
09:54:13 Do you say, sorry, your time is up?
09:54:18 I think that raises due process issues.
09:54:20 And I think in reality what council would do then is to
09:54:22 give that person the opportunity to speak.
09:54:24 So even when you do have these imposed things upon it,
09:54:29 you still have to come up with people's due process
09:54:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.
09:54:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm sorry, I was in the back trying
09:54:39 to work out a very difficult situation where people are
09:54:42 getting cited for nonconforming use on buildings, and
09:54:46 even though they are nonconforming and you tear down
09:54:50 something that you know is nonconforming so I have been
09:54:53 working on that.
09:54:54 That's another issue.
09:54:55 Are we perfect in this system?
09:54:59 But then what is perfect?
09:55:00 I don't think you have a perfect answer.
09:55:03 When you have a lot of times, 15 minutes presentation,
09:55:08 and that means 15 minutes to the petitioner, whoever
09:55:10 the petitioner may be, who is paying to come before
09:55:14 this board?
09:55:17 I guess everybody pays.
09:55:19 And then they have -- and that includes not only the
09:55:24 presenter but also the experts witnesses.
09:55:27 And then at the end they have five minutes to close.
09:55:32 There is no saying in the rules that I know of that 20
09:55:35 people from a street organization, neighborhood
09:55:39 organization, any opposition can come and speak.
09:55:42 We do not shut them out.
09:55:46 The only time that we have a 30-minute session is in
09:55:49 the mornings when we have council, and you have 30
09:55:53 And if there's 40 people times three, that doesn't
09:55:57 equate to 30 minutes.
09:55:58 So even then we cut down the minutes at the end and we
09:56:01 try to listen to all of them.
09:56:02 So what we are doing -- when we are doing these things,
09:56:06 the neighborhood association, people in the block,
09:56:11 regardless if they belong to an organized group or not,
09:56:15 the due process is given.
09:56:17 But when you start saying you are only going to have
09:56:20 15, 10, and this and the other, the opposition is going
09:56:26 to be much greater than what we have today.
09:56:28 Because like you said, what happens in the one in the
09:56:32 16th minute?
09:56:32 What if an organization comes and speaks on the issue,
09:56:35 but I'm the next door neighbor, and you say, sorry,
09:56:38 time is up.
09:56:39 But I'm the most affected neighbor because I live next
09:56:42 door, and I don't get a say?
09:56:43 Is that what we are saying?
09:56:45 I don't think that works.
09:56:47 We have open hearings and closed hearings, and someone
09:56:52 said, I haven't spoken.
09:56:54 Guess what we do.
09:56:55 In the past majority of the times we reopen the hearing
09:56:58 and we take that testimony in.
09:57:00 So I think as a gamut, like I said before, are we
09:57:08 But I think that what we have has certainly been
09:57:11 working to the greater majority of the times.
09:57:13 And in order to change this, you might be asking for a
09:57:17 lot more problems than what you think we are solving.
09:57:21 Thank you, Madam Chair.
09:57:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We now go to the public.
09:57:23 Anyone in the public who would like to speak may come
09:57:27 up and speak.
09:57:28 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You have ten minutes.
09:57:31 Only three.
09:57:32 [ Laughter ]
09:57:33 >> Randy Barron, president of T.H.A.N.
09:57:36 This is an issue that's come before T.H.A.N. repeatedly
09:57:39 over the years, as neighborhood organizations and
09:57:41 association versus become more sophisticated in
09:57:43 responding to zoning requests and other types of
09:57:47 petitions, we understand that the purpose is to make
09:57:50 sure that council is as well informed as possible when
09:57:53 they make that decision.
09:57:55 Many times, what associations do is they do the
09:57:57 research, as Mr. Dingfelder and Ms. Saul-Sena
09:58:03 We go out and make presentations.
09:58:05 I have been involved in case where is we come with
09:58:08 books, have written briefs.
09:58:09 We have combined what we have researched in
09:58:16 The purpose of all of this is to make sure that council
09:58:19 can make a well informed decision.
09:58:20 Many times those kinds of presentations will exceed
09:58:24 three minutes.
09:58:25 And in my experience, when we have asked for additional
09:58:28 time, usually it's because we are trying to finish a
09:58:30 thought, and the chair has been kind enough to give us
09:58:33 an extra 30 seconds or a minute.
09:58:35 But sometimes an extra 30 seconds or minutes is not
09:58:37 going to do it.
09:58:38 We are trying to make a cohesive presentation that is
09:58:43 best served by having one person give it.
09:58:47 Neighborhood associations represent a lot of people.
09:58:48 Many of those people are inexperienced when they
09:58:50 present before council.
09:58:51 Sometimes they are terrified when they present before
09:58:54 And unfortunately sometimes they don't express their
09:58:56 thoughts in the most articulate fashion.
09:59:00 But people who are experienced in doing this who come
09:59:04 before you on a repeated basis and know what the
09:59:07 requirements are, we are not coming up here saying we
09:59:09 had a vote and 200 people said they are Moved.
09:59:13 If that were the case we wouldn't need ten minutes.
09:59:15 We would need 30 seconds to tell you that.
09:59:17 What we need is the opportunity in certain cases, not
09:59:20 all cases, because this doesn't happen a lot, it
09:59:23 happens on big rezonings or things of that nature,
09:59:27 where you have very sophisticated petitioners.
09:59:29 Who spent lots and lots of money and lots and lots of
09:59:32 time to put together a presentation to try to persuade
09:59:35 you to grant a rezoning.
09:59:36 A rezoning that could impact the immediate neighborhood
09:59:40 in all sorts of ways, in ways that they are not going
09:59:43 to tell you in, ways that we would like to tell you.
09:59:46 And we want that opportunity to be able to do that on
09:59:49 those occasions.
09:59:51 Let me make it clear we are not advocating for a
09:59:53 certain time of opposition for everybody.
09:59:55 This 15-minute cut-off is something that T.H.A.N. would
09:59:58 vehemently oppose.
09:59:59 We think that everyone should have an opportunity.
10:00:01 But we also think that neighborhood associations, if
10:00:03 given a little bit of extra time, maybe up to ten
10:00:07 minutes -- and this can be worked out prior -- and we
10:00:10 will need to know prior because we need to make the
10:00:12 We need to be able to plan the presentation.
10:00:15 But we can also save you a lot of time for speaking, by
10:00:17 speaking for a lot of people who aren't then going to
10:00:20 come up and be 10, 20, 15 people taking the three
10:00:24 This can actually be time effective for council, and
10:00:27 also to make sure that council is better educate on the
10:00:30 So I hope you consider this.
10:00:33 And if you have any questions I'm available.
10:00:35 Thank you.
10:00:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
10:00:40 >> Spencer Kass representing Virginia park neighborhood
10:00:44 I would like to offer a compromise that I know isn't
10:00:47 going to delight the neighborhoods and won't delight
10:00:49 anybody else, but let's see if this works.
10:00:53 If a case is continued, I think -- and it's continued
10:00:58 because of the petitioner requesting a continuance, I
10:01:00 think in those cases the associations at the next
10:01:03 hearing should have an additional three minutes for
10:01:05 each time it's continued.
10:01:10 As Mr. Shelby point out if you come here with a group
10:01:12 of people and they can give you their one minute.
10:01:14 Here is the problem.
10:01:15 I come down here with 20 people.
10:01:17 Somebody asks for a continuance.
10:01:20 The next time I come back we all know I am going to
10:01:21 have less people.
10:01:22 People get tired, they get frustrated.
10:01:24 So I think what's fair is City Council doesn't
10:01:29 necessarily want to continue, because you continue five
10:01:31 times and each time you know you are making your
10:01:34 schedule longer.
10:01:35 The petitioners won't rush to continue things because
10:01:37 every time they know they request a continuance that
10:01:39 will add an additional three minutes of time to the
10:01:42 And I think ultimately, then the time that ordinarily
10:01:47 somebody might have given to them can be made up for.
10:01:50 So I think that's a fair compromise.
10:01:52 And I think it's very important that everybody
10:01:54 understand there should be a full and complete
10:01:57 opportunity for everybody to be heard on everything,
10:01:59 whether it's a zoning hearing, whether it's 30 minutes
10:02:02 before council starts an item on an agenda, because if
10:02:05 nothing else the neighborhood comes to express
10:02:08 They know they have been heard.
10:02:09 The other week it was brought up why do so few people
10:02:12 show up at budget hearings?
10:02:13 That was brought up.
10:02:15 Yet tons of people show up for single zoning.
10:02:17 It's because they honestly feel three minutes at 5:30,
10:02:20 nobody listens to them, nobody cares.
10:02:23 I know that you all care.
10:02:24 But that's the impression that when people are up here
10:02:27 and they are being rushed quickly in three minutes,
10:02:30 they just can't keep up with it.
10:02:32 So I think as a compromise, that might work as a
10:02:34 compromise to make everybody happy.
10:02:38 Thank you.
10:02:38 >> My name is Sue Lyon.
10:02:48 I have been coming before this council -- a lot of you
10:02:51 weren't even born.
10:02:54 And this is the first time I have ever heard that the
10:02:56 opposition has any extra time.
10:03:02 I don't think Charlie knew it.
10:03:03 I don't think Linda new it.
10:03:04 And we have been around a long time.
10:03:06 So if we could ahead of time talk to the clerk or talk
10:03:10 to Reverend Scott and say we have a large presentation,
10:03:14 we would like to have the ten minutes, is that possible
10:03:18 under the rules?
10:03:19 Because if we get up here, an Randy talks and Spencer
10:03:25 talks, I talk, we all talk a different language.
10:03:29 And it loses something in the translation.
10:03:33 It's almost like I'm speaking Spanish, because I don't
10:03:37 carry through their lawyer-ESE kind of presentation.
10:03:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If you spoke Spanish, I would
10:03:45 understand you.
10:03:45 >> Oh, boy, do I speak Spanish.
10:03:47 I know all the cuss words.
10:03:49 >> Then I would really understand you.
10:03:51 [ Laughter ]
10:03:52 >> But we are certainly above all not trying to cut out
10:03:58 the next door neighbor.
10:04:00 It's their right.
10:04:01 We have fought for that neighbor's right.
10:04:04 More than anything else we have taught them.
10:04:06 We have drug them here.
10:04:07 We have done everything for the next door neighbor.
10:04:12 It's just to make a more coordinated presentation, that
10:04:18 if there's a time -- and you have seen a lot of times
10:04:22 when we are handed papers off and you finish this and
10:04:25 you finish this, because we don't have the time.
10:04:28 And God love you, I have seen you all expend a lot of
10:04:32 extra time to the petitioner.
10:04:34 And I have been here late at night because the
10:04:37 petitioner gets extra time and has extra questions.
10:04:42 Some of these things are really complicated.
10:04:44 And we have studied them and they say, okay, you have
10:04:46 three minutes.
10:04:47 Well, I have learned to take in three minute bytes.
10:04:52 But if you are going to make a real presentation, you
10:04:55 can't really do it in three minutes.
10:04:58 We either have to split it up, which loses the
10:05:03 continues Newt of the presentation, and that's all we
10:05:06 are asking for, is if we have a good presentation we
10:05:09 would like to be able to present it.
10:05:10 And we thank you for your time.
10:05:23 >>JOHN GRANDOFF: Address suite 3700 Bank of America
10:05:29 As I understand the proposal is to allow 15 minutes to
10:05:32 recognize neighborhoods of record -- ten minutes?
10:05:37 >>GWEN MILLER: Ten minutes.
10:05:38 >>> I appreciate that.
10:05:40 This is basically about fairness.
10:05:45 Due process is just another word for fairness.
10:05:47 I'm very comfortable with the ten-minute suggestion and
10:05:51 I'll give you several reasons why.
10:05:54 As a practitioner, I want to avoid any hearing that
10:05:57 gets reversed because someone didn't have enough time.
10:06:00 You never want that.
10:06:02 You don't wants to railroad an approval or railroad a
10:06:06 So time is not an issue to me.
10:06:08 I think what's important is the evidence that's
10:06:10 presented to you here at the podium is competent and
10:06:15 substantial as Mr. Shelby instructed you.
10:06:17 And what we want to the avoid is something that's
10:06:20 repetitive, something that's not relevant, something
10:06:22 that's not competent, not substantial.
10:06:24 It doesn't help anyone in the process.
10:06:26 And what matters really is the weight of what is said
10:06:31 here, you know, from any measure of the spectrum of
10:06:35 what someone speaks to you.
10:06:37 In the final analysis, what is the weight of that
10:06:39 evidence in the final decision?
10:06:41 And that's what the circuit courts look at judicially
10:06:45 and that's what they look at in all the reported cases
10:06:47 on rezoning.
10:06:48 So the time issue really doesn't trouble me.
10:06:50 I would hope that one day we would have neighborhoods
10:06:53 that come in support, and I would love for them to have
10:06:57 ten minutes to demonstrate their support for a project
10:06:59 that I'm presenting.
10:07:05 Stay positive about it because I would love to have ten
10:07:08 minutes of support from a neighborhood.
10:07:09 I think the chair retains the authority at all times to
10:07:12 make sure that no one should be repetitive or out of
10:07:16 order or inflammatory or not helpful to the process.
10:07:20 So I think if we can avoid just conclusory opposition,
10:07:26 I don't want it, when I'm sitting down that doesn't
10:07:29 benefit anybody.
10:07:30 So I'm willing to work with the city attorney's office
10:07:34 and with neighborhoods to craft some form of time that
10:07:38 would give them time to have their say, just as my
10:07:40 clients have their time to have their say.
10:07:43 So I think it would be a good idea.
10:07:46 Thank you for your time.
10:07:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
10:07:51 Mr. Dingfelder, then Mr. Miranda.
10:07:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Thank you, Mr. Grandoff.
10:07:55 That was very fair of you.
10:08:03 I hope that what Mr. Baron said -- I think it was Mr.
10:08:07 Baron -- and I think it's important, because I have
10:08:10 been on the flip side of this, and as a neighborhood
10:08:13 you do want to prepare your presentation in advance,
10:08:15 you want to know that, okay, we are going to put Randy
10:08:18 up there on behalf of the neighborhood association for
10:08:21 ten minutes, and then blah-blah-blah, everybody else
10:08:24 might speak a minute because Randy has pretty much
10:08:26 given the real meat of the argument and we will just
10:08:29 get up there and bolster it but you want to come up and
10:08:31 Virginia a strategy.
10:08:32 As a result, they do need to know in advance what the
10:08:35 game rules are going to be as compared to waiting till
10:08:38 the matter is called up and then they have to start
10:08:41 begging for council or the chair for additional time.
10:08:43 So what I was thinking was if we are going to go down
10:08:46 this route, which I think is very reasonable, Mr.
10:08:49 Shelby, again not as a matter of right but as a matter
10:08:52 of discretion, that maybe the discretion could lie in
10:08:55 the chair.
10:08:56 Maybe we would include in the rules that they would ask
10:08:59 a week before the hearing to the chair, and the chair
10:09:02 would get back to them in a reasonable amount of time,
10:09:05 now, X number of days before the hearing, and then that
10:09:09 could be revisited by council if the chair turned them
10:09:14 down or something like that.
10:09:15 I think most chairs -- I don't think most neighborhood
10:09:19 associations are going to abuse it.
10:09:20 I think most chairs would grant it.
10:09:23 If it's a big case, and if it's necessary.
10:09:27 So that's number one.
10:09:27 Number two is, if our local rules, our council rules,
10:09:32 don't include it right now, which I don't think they
10:09:34 do, I think we should have a little primmer in there on
10:09:38 quasi-judicial evidence.
10:09:40 In other words, you should do the research, pass it
10:09:45 around, obviously with Mr. Fletcher and other lawyers,
10:09:49 but we should have a little provision in there that
10:09:51 says quasi-judicial hearings are governed by the rules,
10:09:55 you know, the following rules, and the evidence
10:09:58 presented should be competent, substantial, and
10:10:02 competent, substantial evidence is X, Y and Z.
10:10:05 And that way, and just kind of as guidance.
10:10:08 This is guidance to the community.
10:10:10 Because there's a lot of people out there who know
10:10:12 that, and who do that.
10:10:13 And then there's a lot of newcomers who don't.
10:10:16 So at least, you know, maybe people -- maybe it's on
10:10:21 some kind of handout that we give, or I don't know, the
10:10:24 sign-in sheet or something like that, so that way we
10:10:27 are pushing people in that direction.
10:10:30 So those are my thoughts.
10:10:33 I think we have had a positive discussion.
10:10:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.
10:10:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I believe we have.
10:10:42 However, I believe the chair should be a responsible
10:10:44 individual to do that, to guide the both sides, both
10:10:52 But there's a lot more meeting.
10:10:55 If one individual within one organization -- I am not
10:10:57 going to mention the organization because there's
10:10:58 hundreds of them -- when a homeowners association will
10:11:03 have ten minutes, my question to myself is, what about
10:11:07 another member of the organization who may not have the
10:11:09 same opinion as the majority of the organization?
10:11:14 What are they going to be allowed, within the
10:11:17 So these are the things that I'm wrestling with inside.
10:11:22 I don't care if it's 10 minutes or 20 minutes.
10:11:24 When I come to a night meeting I don't plan to leave
10:11:27 before 11.
10:11:28 So what I'm saying is, where is the line?
10:11:35 >>MARTIN SHELBY: The question ultimately, Mr. Miranda,
10:11:38 is one that had you answer every time you have a
10:11:39 hearing, is fairness.
10:11:41 What is fair?
10:11:42 And this council wrestles with that and struggles with
10:11:47 that and makes sure that every decision rests upon a
10:11:50 fair process.
10:11:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So then are we saying if -- and I am
10:11:54 not opposing ten minutes.
10:11:57 But if there's 20 and the same organization says, I
10:12:01 want to be heard, whatever the organization is, what do
10:12:02 you do then?
10:12:05 Say you have a caucus and you say you can't be heard
10:12:08 because the organization spoke for you?
10:12:09 I don't think so.
10:12:10 >> They have three minutes under the rules that they
10:12:12 have now.
10:12:14 And just whether it's a designated organization, if
10:12:20 they have seven people that comes with them that makes
10:12:22 them organized in some fashion, if they have ten
10:12:24 minutes they still have the form.
10:12:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: And let me put something else in
10:12:30 the record to clear some these things up.
10:12:31 For or against any subject matter on anyone that's a
10:12:35 hot button issue.
10:12:37 If we council members aren't informed there's something
10:12:41 wrong because you get phone calls, e-mails, faxes till
10:12:47 they stack up high.
10:12:48 And so on both sides, before you sit down, we all know
10:12:52 or should know how the feeling is of whatever it is
10:13:00 that they are trying to change, because it happens, in
10:13:01 my office -- and I'm sure happens in the rest of the
10:13:03 other six members' offices.
10:13:04 It's not one individual saying one fax or one phone
10:13:09 Sometimes it's hundreds of them.
10:13:13 And that's how I view it.
10:13:15 Thank you.
10:13:15 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
10:13:18 I think what we are trying to do today is all about
10:13:21 And the specific request that I passed out to everybody
10:13:25 from T.H.A.N. was the registered neighborhood
10:13:29 organization, very specific, that that official
10:13:34 organization has a request for ten minutes.
10:13:39 I was very surprised today to hear that the ability to
10:13:42 request that additional time is currently available to
10:13:47 I have certainly been in these meetings since forever,
10:13:50 and I have never been aware of that before, ever, ever,
10:13:53 So while it might have been in the rules, none of us
10:13:57 were aware of it so nobody has ever used it.
10:14:00 I don't know dab that we can -- what I would like to do
10:14:04 today is make a motion to ask our attorney working with
10:14:09 the city attorney to develop a rule that allows a
10:14:13 neighborhood organization to make the request of ten
10:14:17 minutes as a bloc to present the neighborhood -- or I
10:14:22 think Chip said it shouldn't be just the neighborhood
10:14:25 What was your phrase?
10:14:29 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: City attorney.
10:14:30 We need to spend some time on that.
10:14:32 But organized opposition.
10:14:37 We would want to refine that somehow.
10:14:40 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Well, my motion would be for you
10:14:41 all to work on the verbiage and then bring it back to
10:14:44 council in 60 days.
10:14:46 Do you think could you do in the 30 days?
10:14:48 You are going to have all this free time because we are
10:14:50 going to be on vacation.
10:14:52 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Maybe they are going to be on
10:14:54 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's true.
10:14:55 >>> I think Julia might be able to do in the 30 days.
10:14:58 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Great.
10:14:59 Come back to us in 30 days under committee reports.
10:15:04 I mean staff reports.
10:15:05 Staff reports.
10:15:05 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, normally, just additionally,
10:15:12 council, things have worked within the City Council's
10:15:16 purview, the rules of procedure, normally that's my
10:15:19 Let me rephrase that.
10:15:20 The City Council's attorney's responsibilities.
10:15:24 I would be happy to work with the legal department but
10:15:26 ultimately it's the City Council's counsel's attorney
10:15:29 to promulgate rules.
10:15:30 >> Can you bring it back in 30 days?
10:15:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Absolutely.
10:15:35 >> And I will certainly work with the legal department,
10:15:38 but under the charter, Mr. Fletcher has the final say
10:15:40 ultimately in what's legal for the city and I'm sure
10:15:43 this will meet with his approval.
10:15:45 That being said, I should also point out, council, I do
10:15:48 like Mr. Dingfelder's suggestion about the primmer on
10:15:53 quasi-judicial hearings because this council has not
10:15:56 yet been confronted since I have been here with a
10:15:59 request by the party on the record to conduct
10:16:02 cross-examination, which courts have said they are as a
10:16:07 right entitled to.
10:16:09 And you have not yet faced that.
10:16:13 Nobody has made that request of council.
10:16:16 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Never exercised subpoena power
10:16:19 either but sometimes it's tempting.
10:16:22 >>MARY MULHERN: Who has the right to do that?
10:16:24 Just the petitioner or anybody?
10:16:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Anybody who has legal --
10:16:32 >>DAVE TIPPIN: Typically, the case law is where
10:16:34 there's a proffer or presentation to council of expert
10:16:37 testimony or other type of testimony that is subject to
10:16:40 potentially impeachment if somebody were to
10:16:44 cross-examine or question the credentials of the expert
10:16:48 So it's not just anybody in the world can cross-examine
10:16:52 anybody, but where it could be relevant to your
10:16:55 decision making there can be.
10:16:56 >>MARTIN SHELBY: It has to meet the competent test.
10:16:58 It has to be relevant and material.
10:17:00 >>MARY MULHERN: And the courts have said that's
10:17:03 >>MARTIN SHELBY: And the courts have said that's
10:17:05 >> Required.
10:17:06 >> The example might be if someone were to make the
10:17:14 request when an applicant has submitted testimony maybe
10:17:19 from a planner, when the appropriate testimony might be
10:17:22 from a construction engineer, because of their areas of
10:17:26 expertise, that would be the type of case.
10:17:29 Or when opposition, somebody comes up and presents and
10:17:32 says I have done this transportation work for years but
10:17:36 they are not a transportation engineer, there may be a
10:17:40 right to impeach that testimony.
10:17:41 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second on the
10:17:47 All in favor say Aye.
10:17:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I add to that?
10:17:55 I have several motions.
10:17:56 Excuse me, Mr. Miranda.
10:17:58 Mr. Shelby, would you like to explore the possibility
10:18:01 of putting a primmer in as you discussed about what is
10:18:06 competent, substantial evidence encouraging the
10:18:08 community to do that?
10:18:13 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I think part of council's rules,
10:18:15 council should have not only for the public to know,
10:18:17 but as delineated for council what it has to base its
10:18:21 decision on.
10:18:21 So I think --
10:18:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I will be happy to do that.
10:18:27 I move that you also look into that over the next 30
10:18:30 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
10:18:31 >>GWEN MILLER: All in favor?
10:18:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:18:36 In order to balance this sheet I think as I recall the
10:18:41 rules council can only speak for five minutes on a
10:18:43 subject matter but can only speak twice on that subject
10:18:45 Am I correct?
10:18:46 >>GWEN MILLER: We don't go by that rule.
10:18:48 [ Laughter ]
10:18:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: AHHH.
10:18:53 You know, sometimes I throw a curve ball as a
10:18:57 I'm glad you said normally.
10:18:59 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Normally, Mr. Miranda that applies to
10:19:02 regular agendaed legislative matters.
10:19:04 Obviously, the rules with regard to fairness and due
10:19:08 process are different with regard to hearings that
10:19:10 involve property rights.
10:19:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So, in other words -- I understand.
10:19:16 In other words, you are elected but you can't have the
10:19:18 same rights.
10:19:20 I understand.
10:19:21 Thank you very much.
10:19:21 >>GWEN MILLER: We go now to item number 5.
10:19:29 TECO conservation task force.
10:19:35 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Are any task force members here?
10:19:39 Do the task force members know?
10:20:01 >> There was a notice sent yesterday to them.
10:20:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Yesterday?
10:20:10 >> I mailed them to all the task force members.
10:20:12 >> How many task force members are there?
10:20:14 >> 17 or 18.
10:20:15 >> How many are here?
10:20:19 >>THOM SNELLING: Sue Lyon is here.
10:20:20 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't we reschedule it?
10:20:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: This is not good.
10:20:27 >>THOM SNELLING: When we made the first presentation to
10:20:28 the mayor all the task force members were in attendance
10:20:30 at that presentation of this document and the document
10:20:33 I am about to give you.
10:20:34 So they have participated in all of the meetings.
10:20:40 When we have the formal presentation to the mayor four
10:20:42 to six weeks ago all the members were there speaking to
10:20:45 the mayor, talking about their recommendations, giving
10:20:47 the mayor her comments on the task force and its
10:20:50 This meeting was just to brief you on just what the
10:20:55 recommendations were.
10:20:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: So we have no power?
10:21:01 >>CHAIRMAN: The motion was made -- was the motion to
10:21:03 have the committee members here?
10:21:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: No, but I think it was substantive
10:21:09 that numbers would be.
10:21:12 >>THOM SNELLING: The presentation we have about what
10:21:13 was going to happen --
10:21:15 >>CHAIRMAN: The motion was to give council a
10:21:17 presentation, not the task force members.
10:21:20 So Mr. Snelling did not know that he was supposed to
10:21:21 have the task force members because you didn't put that
10:21:24 in your motion.
10:21:24 You said a presentation to council.
10:21:27 So that's what he's doing.
10:21:29 Giving us a presentation.
10:21:30 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to find out.
10:21:32 I think we need to hear from you.
10:21:36 I want to find out, though, what you are presenting.
10:21:38 Are you just presenting the findings of the task force?
10:21:43 >>THOM SNELLING: Yes, ma'am.
10:21:43 >>MARY MULHERN: Because we have already seen that.
10:21:45 But if you can go through it quickly.
10:21:48 But I think we are going to hear from TECO, which would
10:21:50 be --
10:21:52 >> Yes, tell us about the programs that they have
10:21:54 already started to implement from the task force
10:21:56 recommendations as well as other overall kinds of
10:22:01 And we had --
10:22:05 >>MARY MULHERN: I don't know how we worded the motion,
10:22:06 which I guess probably Linda made.
10:22:08 I don't know who made it.
10:22:14 I made the motion and Linda seconded it.
10:22:16 But my thought was that we were going to hear -- well,
10:22:24 I don't know that we all have, but I have seen this and
10:22:26 looked over it and attended the first meeting with the
10:22:28 task force and the mayor's office.
10:22:31 What I want to hear from, city staff, from the mayor,
10:22:36 is what she's going to do with regard to these
10:22:39 Are you going to tell us that today?
10:22:42 >>THOM SNELLING: TECO is here to talk about some of the
10:22:44 items that they have already started working on based
10:22:45 on some of the recommendations that had happened.
10:22:50 A point by point presentation of what TECO had intended
10:22:51 to do and what they intend to participate in
10:22:57 implementing based on the recommendations was given to
10:22:59 the mayor in a presentation with the mayor that we have
10:23:01 had with the TECO -- the members of TECO, the
10:23:05 members -- the folks from TECO that are here today.
10:23:10 We have that presentation to the mayor outlining step
10:23:13 by step what kinds of things they were going to bring
10:23:15 to the table in terms of education.
10:23:16 >>MARY MULHERN: I want to nobody what the mayor is
10:23:18 going to bring to the table.
10:23:19 I think TECO will tell us what they are doing.
10:23:22 But part of this was the city.
10:23:25 It was to make recommendations for what the city and
10:23:28 teak ooh could do.
10:23:30 And that's what we need to hear.
10:23:33 It doesn't sound like you have that today so we are
10:23:35 going to have to --
10:23:37 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's hear --
10:23:39 >>MARY MULHERN: We'll have to put that on the agenda
10:23:40 after we here.
10:23:42 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Dingfelder.
10:23:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Tom, when did you invite TECO?
10:23:50 >>THOM SNELLING: After the mayor's meeting, we were
10:23:51 going to decide when it showed up on the agenda.
10:23:55 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: So a couple of weeks ago?
10:23:57 >>THOM SNELLING: Yes.
10:23:58 There was not any --
10:24:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Let me finish, Tom.
10:24:02 I think what you said before was the entire task force
10:24:05 was there to present it to the mayor and they had a
10:24:08 good discussion and they all spoke freely.
10:24:10 And the mayor commented back, and they had a good
10:24:13 Sounds like a great time was had by all.
10:24:16 But the point is, we would like the same kind of
10:24:20 That's why we hold these workshops.
10:24:24 You know, the mayor picked some great people on all
10:24:26 sides of this issue.
10:24:30 And we would love to see all 17 of them out there.
10:24:33 Now, there was some miscommunication.
10:24:37 >>THOM SNELLING: That would be my fault.
10:24:39 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: That's not what I'm looking for.
10:24:41 There was some miscommunication by council due to --
10:24:45 et cetera, et cetera.
10:24:46 We all apologize for.
10:24:48 That you can see why we are all a little frustrated.
10:24:51 Linda expressed some frustration.
10:24:52 I would love to, after you make your presentation,
10:24:54 after TECO makes its presentation, there are a couple
10:24:58 of very knowledgeable people that we would like to have
10:25:01 that dialogue with.
10:25:02 So, anyway, I just wanted to kind of clarify that's
10:25:07 where the frustration is coming from.
10:25:08 In the meantime let's forward with what we are going to
10:25:10 do today and maybe we'll continue it for some more
10:25:12 discussion later.
10:25:15 >>THOM SNELLING: And I can certainly do that.
10:25:16 What we have today is the PowerPoint that I have is
10:25:21 very quickly going over these items again, and then
10:25:23 TECO is going to talk about some of the specific
10:25:26 programs that they are going to work on as a result of
10:25:28 some of the input that came from the task force.
10:25:32 If you have already had this, going through the entire
10:25:36 report again, I can go through it very quickly and you
10:25:38 have got that.
10:25:39 It would almost be redundant.
10:25:41 If you want to go straight to what TECO wants to talk
10:25:44 about we can do that and then I can answer questions
10:25:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Let's hear from TECO.
10:25:50 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: We all got the written report
10:25:53 months ago.
10:25:55 >>THOM SNELLING: Then can I get the second PowerPoint
10:25:58 And the president of TECO is here to talk to you and I
10:26:03 have a handout for you on that.
10:26:05 >>GWEN MILLER: Before you start let me read the motion
10:27:01 so we have a clear understanding so everybody will know
10:27:04 what we asked for.
10:27:05 The motion is that council have a workshop on June 17,
10:27:10 2010, to discuss the recommendations of the mayor's
10:27:12 citizen TECO energy conservation task force.
10:27:15 There's nothing about inviting anybody here.
10:27:17 This is the motion made by Ms. Mulhern, seconded by Ms.
10:27:23 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I thought a work session was --
10:27:27 >>GWEN MILLER: We always say bring in so-and-so, bring
10:27:30 in this person.
10:27:30 >> We don't have the verbatim and we don't have the
10:27:33 recording so let's not argue about it.
10:27:35 >>GWEN MILLER: The next time make sure you make it
10:27:45 >> Gillette, 702 North Franklin Street.
10:27:47 Council members, thank you for giving us a few minutes
10:27:49 today to talk to you about our interaction was the
10:27:51 mayor's conservation task force.
10:27:53 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: By the way, thank you for coming.
10:27:56 We appreciate you being here.
10:27:58 >> Glad to be here.
10:27:59 Just a little bit of background.
10:28:00 I have been with TECO for 29 years, graduated
10:28:03 Chamberlain high school and the University of South
10:28:04 Florida, for many years was Teco's chief financial
10:28:08 officer, and in August of last year assumed these
10:28:11 With me today from Tampa Electric are Stephani Agliano
10:28:16 and Andrick Frazier who you know from our community
10:28:20 relations area.
10:28:21 As you know, Stephani was our representative on the
10:28:24 mayor's conservation task force
10:28:29 Also with us is Howard Bryant from the conservation, of
10:28:33 our regulatory affairs department and Rick MORERA of
10:28:38 media public relations.
10:28:39 We have been very happy to participate in the mayor's
10:28:41 conservation task force.
10:28:44 We appreciate the interest that you have in these
10:28:47 topics and we appreciate the interest and the knowledge
10:28:49 that the mayor and the task force and the city staff
10:28:54 have demonstrated in these areas of energy conservation
10:28:57 and sustainability through the task force process.
10:29:00 We have effectively had two activities ongoing in
10:29:05 parallel during the time that the mayor's conservation
10:29:07 task force was moving forward.
10:29:10 The utilities in Florida including Tampa Electric have
10:29:14 been engaged in their once every favor-year update for
10:29:19 their conservation goals and programs before the
10:29:21 Florida Public Service Commission under the Florida
10:29:23 energy efficiency and conservation act, and a week
10:29:29 after the recommendations of the task force were
10:29:32 finalized in March, Tampa Electric filed enhanced
10:29:36 conservation programs and some new programs with the
10:29:41 Florida Public Service Commission for approval.
10:29:44 In April, people's gas also made a similar filing.
10:29:49 And as you can see on this slide that's before you,
10:29:52 both Tampa Electric and peoples made some significant
10:29:55 enhancements to their existing programs and proposed
10:29:57 some new programs.
10:30:01 Specifically in Tampa Electric's case, Tampa Electric
10:30:03 for many years has had 29 existing conservation
10:30:07 We moved that in this proposal to the Florida
10:30:11 commission to 39 programs with three brand new
10:30:15 renewable energy programs, seven new conservation
10:30:17 programs, and we have enhanced the incentives
10:30:20 associated with 19 of our existing programs as well.
10:30:26 In people's gas case, we have upgraded the incentives
10:30:30 associated with three of their eight existing
10:30:32 conservation programs.
10:30:34 Both before and after the recent filings, with the
10:30:39 Florida Public Service Commission, we have been
10:30:41 offering and will be offering more conservation
10:30:44 programs than any other investor-owned utility in this
10:30:48 We are also the only investor-owned utility that has
10:30:51 proposed renewable energy programs as part of our
10:30:55 conservation measures.
10:30:57 These programs will go before the Florida Public
10:30:58 Service Commission on August 3rd and if approved
10:31:01 will be implemented in October.
10:31:03 The timing of these parallel efforts and the mayor's
10:31:06 task force and our conservation programming, filings,
10:31:14 has been very positive for us at TECO, and if allowed,
10:31:17 Tampa Electric and peoples gas to get some great input
10:31:21 and feedback on the interest and concerns of the
10:31:26 While we were in the process of updating our existing
10:31:29 programs and developing new programs.
10:31:31 We thank the mayor, the City Council, the task force,
10:31:34 and the city staff for the great opportunity the tasks
10:31:38 force process provided for community input.
10:31:41 It was a great opportunity for us to learn some of the
10:31:43 things that the city is doing both in the way of codes
10:31:48 and standards and also some of the efficiency measures
10:31:51 that the city is taken on at their own facilities.
10:31:55 There are an increasing numbers of key decisions that
10:31:58 we collectively need to be making.
10:32:00 This is an extremely important time in the nation,
10:32:05 state's and community's history for dialogue between
10:32:07 utility service providers and communities.
10:32:11 Important questions need to be answered like are we
10:32:14 willing to pay more for our electricity in order to
10:32:16 eliminate some of the generation with fossil fuels?
10:32:19 And they can't be answered by utilities alone.
10:32:22 They have to be answered by the community and elected
10:32:25 And just as a little anecdote, I was at an industry
10:32:35 conference this week, and a representative from the
10:32:37 Edison electric institute, who is the industry trade
10:32:41 organization that represents our industry in
10:32:43 Washington, said that of the achievements that have
10:32:45 been made in the area of conservation nationwide, about
10:32:50 50% of those achievements have come through codes ands
10:32:55 standards, and about 50% have come through voluntary
10:32:58 incentive-based programs like the ones that we offer.
10:33:02 We offer at Tampa Electric and peoples gas.
10:33:04 So all of you are local government officials have made
10:33:09 some real strides in the areas of codes and standards.
10:33:12 And I think we have made some real strides in the areas
10:33:14 of offering voluntary conservation programs.
10:33:18 But I think we have learned through the task force
10:33:21 effort that we will be best if we are working together
10:33:25 and talking about how we can do this together, because
10:33:28 it does take both.
10:33:30 So we have been especially pleased to be working with
10:33:33 the task force.
10:33:35 I want to change slides here.
10:33:37 He the mayor's task force, and you know came up with 20
10:33:49 specific recommendations in its work effort.
10:33:52 And we have been very pleased to have had the
10:33:54 opportunity to work with city staff both before and
10:33:57 after the development of the recommendation on things
10:34:00 that we can do on the recommendations in the way of
10:34:06 supporting or collaborating actions on those
10:34:10 And, in fact, we have identified things that we can do
10:34:14 at TECO for each one of the 20 recommendations that the
10:34:19 task force has come up with.
10:34:21 And this slide that's before you just shows a few
10:34:24 examples of the things that we are doing, or will do in
10:34:27 the future in collaborative fashion with the task force
10:34:34 and we plan to do these things with our existing newly
10:34:38 proposed conservation programs, so provided the Florida
10:34:44 commission approves our conservation programs we will
10:34:46 have funding to do the things that you see on the
10:34:52 We found great alignment with the increased incentives
10:34:55 for conservation and energy efficiency, and as a result
10:34:58 we designed enhancements to our programs and submitted
10:35:01 new programs for the commission that with the benefit
10:35:05 of the task force's input.
10:35:07 In other words, the input of the task force was used
10:35:12 directly in the development of some of the programs
10:35:14 that you see in the examples on the right.
10:35:17 And you have been handed a detailed summary of all of
10:35:22 the 39 programs that we filed with the Public Service
10:35:25 Just a little bit on the specifics of this slide.
10:35:29 You can see that, for example, we have identified three
10:35:32 areas of collaboration with the task force here,
10:35:36 renewable energy, enhanced low income weatherization
10:35:40 and energy education, and again these are just some
10:35:43 Under renewable energy the task force recommended
10:35:46 encouraging both solar, thermal, water heating and
10:35:50 solar programs for residential and commerce customers.
10:35:56 And in our March filing on our new conservation
10:35:58 programs, under FECA, we included a solar water heating
10:36:02 program that provides incentives up to $1,000 for
10:36:07 customers in the form of a rebate.
10:36:09 In addition, we proposed that a brand new residential
10:36:13 commercial program that will provide $2 per Watt
10:36:19 instead of for installation of a solar tank array up to
10:36:24 a $20,000 rebate.
10:36:26 We also proposed to partner with the Florida energy
10:36:30 center on the installation of several 10-kilowatt
10:36:34 portable tank arrays with battery backup at schools
10:36:38 throughout our area that are used as emergency shelters
10:36:41 coupled with an educational component for teachers and
10:36:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Do you have a cap on the rebates?
10:36:48 >> Yes.
10:36:49 The cap on the tank is $20,000.
10:36:56 >> Community cap.
10:37:00 >> Let me check to be sure.
10:37:06 1.5 million per year, I'm advised.
10:37:09 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I had a feeling.
10:37:12 We'll see how that goes.
10:37:13 >> In the area of enhanced low-income weatherization
10:37:16 the task force recommended expansion of our current
10:37:18 program, and also recommended that we develop a
10:37:21 neighborhood energy audit weatherization roll-out
10:37:26 And in response we proposed expansion of our current
10:37:29 low-income weatherization program to include
10:37:33 prestandardized deducting, duct repair, as well as
10:37:42 fluorescent light bulbs.
10:37:42 In addition we enhanced our weatherization program on a
10:37:47 neighborhood basis such that it was designed for
10:37:50 And this means instead of qualifying individual homes,
10:37:54 we requested the ability to qualify whole neighborhoods
10:37:58 using census or city economic data.
10:38:02 The last example is energy education.
10:38:05 The task force recommended that we partner with the
10:38:08 city in efforts to expand our community education
10:38:11 programs and gain greater participation in our
10:38:15 conservation programs.
10:38:17 And based on of that we plan to work very closely with
10:38:20 the city on such things as city TV programming geared
10:38:25 towards conservation and sustainability, and renewable
10:38:29 And we are looking to link the city and the TECO Web
10:38:33 sites as well.
10:38:36 On our Web site we have things like an energy
10:38:38 calculator, rebate information, energy tips, and we are
10:38:42 even working on and looking to roll out soon a carbon
10:38:46 footprint calculator as well.
10:38:50 So we are making a lot of progress on the education
10:38:53 front as well.
10:38:54 Again, these are just examples of the areas where we
10:38:58 received input from the task force and directly put it
10:39:01 to work in the development of our programs.
10:39:04 Beginning to conclude now a little bit, we are very
10:39:07 proud of our part in the Tampa community, the city,
10:39:13 Tampa Electric and peoples gas have a great deal of
10:39:15 common interest.
10:39:17 We are joined diagnose in many ways, especially in the
10:39:19 fact that we provide critical services to our
10:39:24 At Tampa Electric we provide service to some 17
10:39:26 different communities in west central Florida, and
10:39:30 people's gas we serve 200 communities in 37 counties in
10:39:35 But Tampa is very important to us.
10:39:37 It's our home.
10:39:39 And it's where we have been offering utility services
10:39:41 for 110 years at Tampa Electric and 115 years at
10:39:46 people's gas.
10:39:47 And we've the task force work and recommendations and
10:39:51 our newly updated conservation programs, I think we
10:39:55 have accomplished a great deal together.
10:39:59 Have we captured everything that we can be doing
10:40:02 together in the future?
10:40:03 I would say probably or most certainly not.
10:40:09 Our local economy is changing.
10:40:11 The energy business is changing very rapidly as well.
10:40:14 And there will be much more that we can do, I think,
10:40:18 together in the future than what we presented today.
10:40:21 In fact, just last week, when we were meeting with the
10:40:23 mayor, we generated several more ideas on things that
10:40:26 we might do together.
10:40:28 These ideas included doing even more than we discussed
10:40:31 dab to work with the schools to enhance energy
10:40:34 education, and also doing energy audits on homes that
10:40:43 we are painting and "Paint Your Heart Out."
10:40:45 In addition, we are very interested to talk to the city
10:40:48 more in the future about what we are doing in other
10:40:51 communities to convert fleet vehicles to natural gas
10:40:58 We have had some very successful activities there.
10:41:02 We are interested in all electric and hybrid vehicles.
10:41:06 And we are continuing to work to make our electric grid
10:41:09 smarter, and look at the potential for LED outdoor
10:41:13 lighting as well.
10:41:14 So there's much more than we can do in the future and
10:41:17 we are committed to being the very best partner that we
10:41:19 can with the city.
10:41:23 One last slide I'll show you here.
10:41:26 This is a concept that was the team of our last year's
10:41:32 annual report, and it explains the spirit in which we
10:41:34 have been working with the task force.
10:41:38 I think this is embodied in the mission for the mayor's
10:41:41 conservation task force as well.
10:41:43 And it illustrates the need for utility service
10:41:45 providers and policymakers to balance completing --
10:41:49 competing priorities in the current and future
10:41:53 provision of utility services.
10:41:54 We call it the three "E" slide.
10:41:58 And it's easy oftentimes as you look at the slide to
10:42:02 kind of meet the needs of two of these three bubbles.
10:42:05 But it's more difficult to balance all of the needs
10:42:08 associated with the three bubbles.
10:42:10 And we look forward to a continuation of our long and
10:42:14 very special relationship with the city and continue
10:42:20 dialogue on our combined efforts to do our very best to
10:42:24 balance all these factors.
10:42:25 Thank you very much for your time.
10:42:27 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I want to thank you for not having
10:42:31 rolling blackouts during the last two weeks of
10:42:33 excruciatingly hot weather.
10:42:35 You have been doing Yeoman's work.
10:42:38 I want to thank you for working with the city.
10:42:39 I feel that what's before us is very admirable in its
10:42:46 I'm very eager to see it translated into very specific
10:42:51 numbers of people engaged in the program.
10:42:53 Numbers where people can call and participate.
10:42:57 There are so many more opportunities that we have not
10:43:00 yet scratched the surface in terms of becoming more
10:43:03 independent of the traditional forces of -- sources of
10:43:08 You know I was very disappointed that we had such a
10:43:11 long franchise agreement, because it is such a dynamic
10:43:15 We are all so dependent upon being more creative in the
10:43:18 We recognize that we will not continue to grow in the
10:43:22 way that we have because we must conserve, the smartest
10:43:29 most efficient thing we can do is not build additional
10:43:32 power plants.
10:43:32 What we need to do is figure out how to use the
10:43:36 electricity in the most economical and conservative
10:43:39 And that will take a dramatic change.
10:43:41 I see your numbers guy in the audience.
10:43:44 It takes a change of thinking.
10:43:48 Growth has always been Florida's mantra.
10:43:49 And we need to think about things in a very different
10:43:53 Specifically, I'm interested -- and I have this
10:43:57 available for all my council members -- and passing it
10:44:02 to you.
10:44:02 The Florida legislature did something that was actually
10:44:06 very thoughtful and progressive.
10:44:09 They identified the opportunity of creating community
10:44:13 development districts for use by cities or counties so
10:44:17 that individuals could get very low-cost loans to do
10:44:20 energy efficiency, conservation and weatherization.
10:44:24 And I know that Thom Snelling and Bonnie Wise have
10:44:30 spoken to several companies that are offering this sort
10:44:32 of thing.
10:44:33 And I hope that you all are involved in that
10:44:36 Are you aware that this went through the state
10:44:39 >>> We are.
10:44:40 And we would like to continue the dialogue because I
10:44:42 think it would be a useful adjunct to our voluntary
10:44:46 incentives on our conservation program.
10:44:47 >> To take the onus off of you to administer this, it
10:44:52 would take the onus off the city, it would create
10:44:55 opportunities for the private sector working with
10:44:57 individual citizens or businesses to have low-cost
10:44:59 loans so that we could explore photovoltaic panels for
10:45:07 our homes or businesses which will ultimately --
10:45:10 ultimately mean we have less to purchase from you, and
10:45:13 I think there's a provision you all would buy back
10:45:15 additional, should there be additional energy, that
10:45:18 individual homes create that you buy it back.
10:45:19 >>> That's correct.
10:45:20 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That's really significant.
10:45:23 That's really a game changer.
10:45:25 And it would mean that individuals are increasingly
10:45:28 more independent, which I think would be good for our
10:45:35 I'm glad to hear that you are a part of this.
10:45:38 And I think what we are going to do is Virginia a
10:45:40 follow-up and perhaps we can get a report from you as
10:45:42 well as Bonnie Wise on how we are moving in this
10:45:44 >>> Very good.
10:45:45 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If we reduce our energy
10:46:07 requirements, we reduce our dependence on foreign oil,
10:46:12 and there's another critical reason. If we reduce our
10:46:15 energy requirements as a nation, hopefully we can have
10:46:18 less drilling offshore, which is on everybody's mind.
10:46:21 I'm sure there's many reasons.
10:46:23 In addition to the green issues and global warming,
10:46:28 which we could probably debate for many years, but
10:46:32 putting aside those big global issues before, I think a
10:46:44 gentleman in the back confirmed this, $1.5 million.
10:46:48 I have looked into this before.
10:46:50 Typically if we are going to do a house it might be
10:46:52 like 5, 10,000 I think for a house, bigger houses might
10:46:59 be bigger.
10:47:01 So let's say there's $10,000 a house.
10:47:03 I just calculated that's 150 homes.
10:47:06 And it's a small start.
10:47:09 >>> Just for your --
10:47:14 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just a second.
10:47:15 You guys have a million, probably more than a million
10:47:18 customers, a million people that you service, probably
10:47:21 more than that.
10:47:21 But so 150 homes is not real impressive.
10:47:26 And I have a couple of other questions, Madam Chair.
10:47:28 Go ahead.
10:47:29 >>> We already have close to 100 homes that do have
10:47:35 solar and are netting out.
10:47:38 But to your point, the design of this is such that that
10:47:42 cap, I believe -- and I need to verify this -- is on
10:47:47 the incentives.
10:47:51 We are providing $2 of every Watt of solar capacity
10:47:54 installed to help the homeowner or business buy solar
10:48:01 It might go around more.
10:48:02 But I think your point is very well taken.
10:48:04 These are brand new programs.
10:48:08 We don't know how quickly they are going to catch on.
10:48:10 We are hopeful that -- if the Public Service Commission
10:48:22 approves this in the current form that cap will exist.
10:48:31 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I have been in front of PSC a
10:48:33 couple of times.
10:48:34 I know that's a big process.
10:48:40 Like you say, we'll see where that goes.
10:48:43 In terms of all of your -- what is it, 39?
10:48:46 39 things or something like that?
10:48:48 >> Yes, sir.
10:48:48 >> I know some of them are hard to quantify, but are
10:48:55 there quantifiable goals for the company as a whole,
10:48:58 for your customer base?
10:49:01 And you say, okay, right now we have to generate X
10:49:05 amount of power to this entire community, and based
10:49:10 upon these 39 things, by X year, we will reduce that to
10:49:17 such and such.
10:49:19 And I would like your you to fill in those blanks for
10:49:24 me if there's a way to fill that in.
10:49:26 And then, number 2, are there any rewards or penalties
10:49:31 associated if as a company/region we don't meet those
10:49:38 >> There are specific megawatt and energy reduction
10:49:43 goals, and the Florida energy efficiency and
10:49:48 conservation act has been in place since the mid 80s,
10:49:52 and in 1995 was the first round of goal setting, and
10:49:58 effectively if you look at the amount to date of
10:50:04 megawatts and megawatt hours of energy as a result of
10:50:11 our conservation program I think we can easily say that
10:50:13 we have avoided at least one power plant in our service
10:50:18 And that is a significant capital cost.
10:50:23 We have probably saved close to half a billion dollars
10:50:29 as a result of being able to avoid, you know, a power
10:50:34 And so I think the programs have been very effective to
10:50:41 With the enhancements that we are making, I think we
10:50:43 have got good opportunity in the future for them to be
10:50:45 even more effective.
10:50:48 And so it is working.
10:50:49 >> So avoidance -- I heard that term before in your
10:50:59 world -- is a good thing, for the companies, for the
10:51:01 community, for your rate payers, et cetera.
10:51:04 So then I circle back to the other question, why would
10:51:07 you have caps on things like photovoltaic incentives?
10:51:16 Because clearly if we can generate power on our roofs
10:51:19 working together with my capital investment from my
10:51:23 home and your incentive, you know, and then I take
10:51:28 excess capacity and I put it back into the system,
10:51:30 which I think is required now.
10:51:32 >>> Right.
10:51:33 >> And that creates more avoidance.
10:51:35 >>> Right.
10:51:36 Good question.
10:51:38 And you are exactly right in terms of the way it works.
10:51:42 Maybe just a little bit of background.
10:51:44 The way the incentive mechanism works is that if an
10:51:48 individual customer is installing solar equipment, for
10:51:50 instance, on his or her home or business, he or she
10:51:59 gets paid a rebate, that rebate comes from all of our
10:52:03 All of our customers pony up to help that particular
10:52:06 customer install that.
10:52:08 >> If I used my capital to help you avoid building a
10:52:13 power plant.
10:52:15 But you also have the pollution benefit as well.
10:52:17 >> That's exactly right.
10:52:19 And I go back a little bit to the slide that I showed
10:52:24 There needs to be a bit of a balance of energy,
10:52:29 economics and the environment in all of this.
10:52:31 If we take solar, for instance, solar has a lot of
10:52:38 attributes to it.
10:52:39 It allows us to not have to burn fossil fuel, and it
10:52:43 reduces carbon dioxide emissions which are a precursor
10:52:48 to global warming, or the studies say, and so that's a
10:52:53 good thing about solar.
10:52:56 The more challenging thing with a wide proliferation of
10:53:00 solar is that the sun doesn't always shine.
10:53:03 And but customers always want power.
10:53:08 And so as a result of that, we can in fact avoid some
10:53:16 energy generation with solar, but our analysis would
10:53:20 say you can't always rely on the capacity of solar to
10:53:23 be there.
10:53:24 And so we have got a balance again the benefits of the
10:53:30 environment, the benefits from an economic standpoint,
10:53:34 and the energy needs of our customers.
10:53:36 And we think some solar on our system is a very good
10:53:42 Can it take the place of serving all of the commerce'
10:53:46 energy needs?
10:53:46 Probably not.
10:53:47 Because the sun doesn't shine all the time.
10:53:49 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: But what percentage of our system
10:53:54 is solar right now?
10:53:56 >>> Very little.
10:53:57 Very little.
10:53:59 And that's why we think it makes sense to provide some
10:54:03 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I don't know if you looked into it
10:54:05 but I'm sure that based on your analysis, I bet we
10:54:09 could go up to 10 or 20% of the system with solar and
10:54:12 still have a system that works.
10:54:13 >> Well, and there are in fact proposals both at the
10:54:18 state level and at the federal level that talk about as
10:54:22 much as 20% generation by renewables by certain dates.
10:54:29 And I think geography makes a big difference in terms
10:54:35 of what the real opportunities is.
10:54:36 Western states have a lot more President Obama tension
10:54:39 than Florida does.
10:54:41 We have some decent solar opportunities here.
10:54:44 Maybe not as good as the southwest.
10:54:47 And the reality is I'm not sure that, you know, a 20%
10:54:51 or whatever standard that might be, fits for every
10:54:55 locality, you know, every geography.
10:55:00 >> Two more quick questions.
10:55:01 One, I asked you before about rewards and penalties
10:55:04 associated with achieving these goals.
10:55:05 I'm glad there have been goals in place.
10:55:08 Goals are a good thing, we tell our children, right?
10:55:12 It sounds like the goals are in place for a long time
10:55:15 and is there any teeth to this?
10:55:19 >> Well, I think the proof again is kind of in the
10:55:22 pudding of our experience with these programs.
10:55:24 I think back in the mid 1980s when this all got
10:55:27 started, I don't think we knew how many people were
10:55:30 going to take advantage of the voluntary incentives.
10:55:33 But what we found is that we have a lot of customers
10:55:38 that took advantage of our early load management
10:55:41 A lot of customers that have taken advantage of the
10:55:43 energy audit, and so I think the key is in the market
10:55:50 using these programs.
10:55:51 And hopefully with an increase incentives, we are going
10:55:55 to even get some more market teeth, you know, moving
10:55:59 >> I guess if I were in the PSC I might look at it and
10:56:02 say, if there is more teeth, then you might be pushing,
10:56:09 more motivated to really get this community onboard.
10:56:14 But we can discuss that over coffee sometime.
10:56:16 And then my last question is, a very big question is
10:56:21 the cap question.
10:56:24 I think you alluded to the federal aspect of all of
10:56:28 this, the national or global aspect of all of this.
10:56:31 I have reads -- and I don't want to impugn you guys --
10:56:37 I have read utility companies are digging in, in
10:56:39 Washington, to oppose cap and trade.
10:56:42 I don't know if TECO takes a direct position through
10:56:45 your national trade organization on that.
10:56:47 >>> Well, maybe late-breaking update from the Edison
10:56:52 electric institute meeting that I was at.
10:56:55 All of the CEOs were meeting there, and I think what
10:56:56 I saw was a general understanding that it was quite
10:57:04 likely there would be some form of Co2 legislation, and
10:57:15 broader environmental regulation within a fairly short
10:57:15 period of time. Nobody knows exactly how quickly it
10:57:15 will happen.
10:57:15 I think -- we as utility companies, I think, electric
10:57:16 utility have shifted from, you know, kind of a great
10:57:26 amount of uncertainty in terms of whether it was going
10:57:30 to be there to kind of -- if and when it gets
10:57:34 implemented, how are we going to do our very best to
10:57:35 take care of our companies and our customers?
10:57:39 And, as you know, Tampa Electric has done a lot in
10:57:45 recent times with the conversion of one of our large
10:57:50 power plants from coal to natural gas.
10:57:53 We reduced our CO2 emissions by about 20%.
10:57:56 We have reduced our particulate emissions by probably
10:58:00 about 80% since 1998.
10:58:04 So our focus has kind of shifted.
10:58:06 Our focus is on making sure that if and when there is
10:58:11 environmental legislation that we and our customers get
10:58:16 credit for what we have already done in the Tampa Bay
10:58:18 And so we are not in a mode of in any way trying to
10:58:24 We are in a mode of trying to watch out for our
10:58:27 commerce and make sure that whatever comes is the most
10:58:30 economic as it can be, while still balancing the
10:58:34 benefits of such legislation to the environment.
10:58:36 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: You started off by saying that
10:58:42 elected officials, it's really elected officials that
10:58:46 are elected to speak for the people.
10:58:49 And so you are looking for input from the people,
10:58:51 clearly it's going to come to you through the elected
10:58:55 officials in Washington on this issue.
10:59:00 So I guess we'll all stay tuned and see how that works
10:59:03 >>MARY MULHERN: You are a for-profit company, right?
10:59:09 >> Yes.
10:59:10 >> I think John got your answer there.
10:59:12 Their job is to make money.
10:59:14 And they sell energy.
10:59:16 So until there is legislation, federal and state
10:59:20 legislation, that require them to burn less and use
10:59:31 less it's not going to happen.
10:59:32 It's just the reality.
10:59:38 I think if council wants to do something, they want to
10:59:40 go to Tallahassee and Washington that were in support
10:59:42 of alternative energy legislation and cap and trade if
10:59:47 that's what we hope is going to happen.
10:59:50 My question for you is -- and thank you.
10:59:53 And I appreciate everything you are doing.
10:59:54 And I understand, you know, what your company does and
10:59:58 what position you are in.
10:59:59 But that's why I had hoped that this task force would
11:00:06 come up with something, some public solutions that we
11:00:10 can do, because we are not in the business of making
11:00:13 We are in the business of saving money, and of
11:00:16 providing a service to our customers, whereas you have
11:00:19 to also do your bottom line.
11:00:25 That's where I hope we can go forward trying to get
11:00:27 this city administration to do whatever they can to
11:00:31 reduce our output and to help our citizens to reduce
11:00:35 their carbon.
11:00:41 But what percentage of the energy that you create is
11:00:45 coal and what percentage comes from coal burning, and
11:00:48 what percentage comes from natural gas at this point?
11:00:51 >>> We are about 50% coal generation and 50% natural
11:00:56 gas generation.
11:00:59 At this point.
11:00:59 But I would point out that in the 90s, before we made
11:01:04 this conversion of the Gannon station to the Bayside
11:01:09 station, we were close to 98% coal firing.
11:01:12 Now, one thing I would point out is that one of the
11:01:16 things that we have done -- and I think we have been
11:01:19 very much in the leading edge -- is with the existing
11:01:22 coal burning that we have, we have done a lot to reduce
11:01:27 emissions from those units as well.
11:01:29 We have installed scrubbers for oxide, precursor to
11:01:36 acid rain, preproduction, and we have also installed
11:01:39 very recently, we completed a project to for catalytic
11:01:46 reduction which reduces carbon monoxide emissions which
11:01:51 is a precursor to ozone.
11:01:57 The coal that we are burning at this point is being
11:01:59 burned in a state-of-the-art unit, the best available
11:02:03 controls, including our Polk power station which you
11:02:08 may know actually gasifies coal and removes a lot of
11:02:11 the constituents before it's burned as a synthetic
11:02:15 natural gas.
11:02:15 >>MARY MULHERN: That's great.
11:02:19 Almost 50% reduction in coal burning in like a decade.
11:02:24 That's great.
11:02:31 You had to do that because of clean air standards.
11:02:33 >> That's right.
11:02:34 It was part of a consent decree that we had with the
11:02:37 Environmental Protection Agency.
11:02:38 >> So it works when you have regulations, if we could
11:02:40 pass some laws.
11:02:42 My question for you -- this is my last question.
11:02:51 Your predecessor was talking about -- wait, that might
11:02:55 not be right.
11:02:55 Let me fill you in on what happened on the solar
11:02:58 project, the solar plant that's not going to happen.
11:03:03 But I think before that you were talking about building
11:03:07 either was it nuclear, or was it --
11:03:10 >> It was an adjunct to the coal gasification facility.
11:03:13 >> So it was -- that would be clean coal.
11:03:19 >> Right.
11:03:20 >> So since the solar project isn't going to happen,
11:03:21 does that mean you are going back to the coal, building
11:03:26 of coal facility?
11:03:26 >> Well, the short story on that is we are required as
11:03:31 one of the many regulations, under one of the many
11:03:34 regulations we work under, that when we are looking at
11:03:38 building a new power plant, large scale, now, coal
11:03:42 gasification power plant, for instance, we have to go
11:03:44 out for bid to see whether there are competing power
11:03:49 suppliers that could provide the power cheaper.
11:03:52 And when we went out for bid to see if somebody could
11:03:56 provide a substitute to the gasification facility, this
11:04:01 is back in 2007 that we were proposing, we also decided
11:04:04 to go out with a renewable energy bid.
11:04:08 We saw renewable energy coming.
11:04:11 Governor Charlie Crist issued executive orders in favor
11:04:15 of renewable for the folio standard, and so on our own
11:04:21 initiative we issued a request for proposal for solar
11:04:25 The best proposal that we got was from a company called
11:04:28 energy 5.0.
11:04:31 It was more expensive than our coal alternative, and in
11:04:35 fact it was for much less power than our coal
11:04:38 Our coal alternative was going to be 600 megawatts.
11:04:41 This particular proposal that we got was 25 megawatts
11:04:47 of central station solar capacity.
11:04:49 Basically a bunch of solar panels in a field.
11:04:53 We made a decision in late 2007 to postpone the
11:05:01 gasification facility indefinitely, for a variety of
11:05:06 reasons, some of which were there was growing
11:05:10 environmental concern about coal, even though we felt
11:05:11 very strongly that our gasification technology was the
11:05:14 best way to burn coal.
11:05:16 The other thing is we were starting to see a downturn
11:05:18 in the local economy, and as a result of that we
11:05:25 questioned the timing and the need for that facility.
11:05:27 So that particular plan, looking back, hindsight is
11:05:34 20-20, we are glad we did postpone.
11:05:37 And that particular project, the 600-megawatt
11:05:42 gasification facility went by the boards.
11:05:44 But we have contracted with energy 5.0, and it was
11:05:50 subject to -- the only thing to basically make that
11:05:54 contract enforceable that was left was approval by the
11:05:57 Florida Public Service Commission.
11:06:01 But what we found was that, as we were preparing to go
11:06:06 to the Florida Public Service Commission with this, we
11:06:10 were all -- and I say all -- the legislature and the
11:06:12 commission and TECO were in a bit of a quandary.
11:06:18 And the quandary was what's the standard for what
11:06:23 should be paid for a large central station facility.
11:06:29 And this facility was more costly than our next avoided
11:06:35 generating unit, was the Florida Public Service
11:06:38 Commission going to approve that?
11:06:40 And we all kind of looked to the legislature to see if
11:06:43 they would pass renewable legislation that would put
11:06:47 some quantification on that, in 2009, and then very
11:06:50 recently again in 2010.
11:06:52 And neither time did renewable legislation get passed.
11:06:57 And so as a result of that, we put that bigger solar
11:07:01 project on hold, but we are very interested, as we say,
11:07:07 in smaller solar opportunities at the right time and
11:07:11 right place, maybe even having a central station solar
11:07:15 >>MARY MULHERN: It makes -- from what I have seen and
11:07:19 read, distributed generation makes more sense for solar
11:07:25 energy than a big plants.
11:07:26 It's just -- because of the problems like you said with
11:07:31 the fund going on.
11:07:33 And also the distribution and all that.
11:07:37 But my question for you now is, you asked what did
11:07:43 those two possibilities for more power generation.
11:07:45 So what is next?
11:07:48 Or are you not going to be pursuing it right now?
11:07:52 >>> Well, at this point, we had basically a hiatus in
11:07:56 kind of all of our thinking on new power plants,
11:07:59 because we just haven't experienced any real growth.
11:08:02 You know, for a period of time in 2008 and 2009, for
11:08:07 the first time in my 29-year history with the company,
11:08:10 we actually saw negative growth.
11:08:13 Now, we are starting to see a little bit of Grothe in
11:08:17 net meters in the fourth quarter and first quarter of
11:08:20 this year and we are beginning to think about what's
11:08:23 going to be needed for the future, and we do have a
11:08:25 large purchase contract that we are buying power from a
11:08:28 third party generator that's going away in 2013, and so
11:08:33 our current ten-year cite plan that we filed with the
11:08:37 Florida Public Service Commission on April 1st of
11:08:39 this year shows four small peaking type units,
11:08:47 combustion units to be added to the system in 2013,
11:08:51 mainly to replace this power purchase as opposed to
11:08:56 meeting any new growth.
11:08:57 >> What's a combustion turbine?
11:09:01 >> Basically a jet engine.
11:09:03 >> Oil?
11:09:04 >> Natural gas fire.
11:09:06 Basically the engines that we are looking to install
11:09:09 are just like some that we just installed.
11:09:12 We installed five of these on our system within the
11:09:14 last year E.
11:09:15 And they really are literally the engines that are on
11:09:22 the wing of airplanes.
11:09:25 >>MARY MULHERN: So it sounds like it was really like
11:09:29 the rest of the boom, the housing boom, and kind of
11:09:32 that bubble that your projections didn't actually
11:09:38 happen just lake pretty much everything else in our
11:09:42 experience, you know, all the zonings we approved,
11:09:46 nothing is getting built.
11:09:48 So it's good in a way.
11:09:52 It won't create any more pollution.
11:09:53 >>> That's right.
11:09:54 And I think it gives us a little bit of time to do
11:09:56 things like we have done with the task force and look
11:09:58 at our conservation programs, because I think, you
11:10:02 know, on the other hand, I think we are all hopeful
11:10:04 that there's going to be some rebound in the economy,
11:10:06 and going to be some growth going forward, but I think
11:10:10 with our new conservation programs, we are more
11:10:14 prepared and better positioned for that next round of
11:10:19 growth, if and when it comes.
11:10:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, I think what you have told us is
11:10:23 basically that we have to get the legislation at the
11:10:27 state level and the national level to enable you to do
11:10:31 these things.
11:10:32 To do more.
11:10:34 Alternative energy solutions.
11:10:36 >> Yes, I think so.
11:10:38 I think the other thing that is really important, and
11:10:43 it's happening right now, is that the market itself
11:10:49 You know, just like flat screen TVs.
11:10:52 The first flat screen TVs cost, what, $5,000, and now
11:10:58 they are very competitive, very reasonably priced.
11:11:00 And I think we are seeing some of that happening with
11:11:03 We are seeing some of that happen with wind.
11:11:05 And it takes some incentives; I think, to get the
11:11:10 market going and get us on that curve where the costs
11:11:14 come down.
11:11:15 And hopefully, also, this little hiatus that we are in,
11:11:21 with growth right now, will give the market some time
11:11:24 to get innovative, and for the prices of some of these
11:11:27 technologies to come down some.
11:11:29 >>GWEN MILLER: We have one more question.
11:11:34 We have to move.
11:11:35 We have two more agenda items.
11:11:36 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: In your peoples gas are you making
11:11:40 new gas lines available for people in neighborhoods?
11:11:45 >> Yes, we are.
11:11:46 There's about a 10% penetration of natural gas service
11:11:50 in Florida.
11:11:52 And for the most part, it's been in brand new
11:11:56 And the reason for that is it's cheaper to run gas
11:12:00 lines before the neighborhood is built, as you know,
11:12:04 from your utility business, than go through existing
11:12:09 But we do have some programs.
11:12:09 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I'll tell what you I'm very, very
11:12:11 interested in.
11:12:12 As we look forward to increased transportation systems
11:12:16 and increasing the density particularly in our urban
11:12:20 core, some of the more intense new developments really
11:12:23 want to use gas.
11:12:24 And I believe it's been problematic for them because
11:12:27 you all have -- you haven't had a policy of supporting
11:12:32 expansion in the urban core.
11:12:34 But I hope that you will do that, because, frankly, gas
11:12:38 is better for really good cooking.
11:12:41 And --
11:12:44 >> We do have some customers.
11:12:46 And perhaps we are going to schedule something up in
11:12:47 the future maybe in 60 days you can come back and give
11:12:51 us a report on your plans to make gas available when
11:12:57 things warm up again and when we start rebuilding,
11:13:00 particularly in our areas that are going to be served
11:13:01 by our transportation.
11:13:04 >> Very good.
11:13:05 We would very much like to do that.
11:13:08 >> With Encore coming back.
11:13:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Thank you.
11:13:09 We appreciate you will coming in for this presentation.
11:13:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Can we have a report in two months
11:13:16 with numbers attached to it and what the city is doing?
11:13:20 We didn't hear at all what the city is doing.
11:13:21 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like to ask that we have a
11:13:26 staff report with how the city is implementing the
11:13:36 recommendations of the TECO energy -- citizens energy
11:13:41 task force to invite city staff to make that
11:13:48 presentation, and to invite all of the members of the
11:13:51 task force, and TECO, everyone that participated in
11:13:57 that task force, to come to the meeting if they can.
11:14:03 I think a staff report?
11:14:05 I think a staff report.
11:14:06 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
11:14:09 All in favor say Aye.
11:14:11 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have to have a date.
11:14:12 >>MARY MULHERN: How about at our August meeting, one
11:14:15 of our August meetings maybe?
11:14:19 The second one, which would be -- the 26th?
11:14:41 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why don't you put it back to a
11:14:43 workshop, because if you want to have people here and
11:14:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Do we have an August workshop?
11:14:50 >>MARY MULHERN: We have to do that for the public
11:14:54 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: No, I was just saying to give more
11:14:57 >>MARY MULHERN: More time.
11:14:59 All right.
11:15:02 I don't know.
11:15:03 >> There is no August workshop.
11:15:06 Florida League of Cities.
11:15:07 >>MARY MULHERN: Do you want to do in the September
11:15:14 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What's the September workshop?
11:15:17 The 30th?
11:15:18 >>THE CLERK: You want what time?
11:15:25 Because you already have a workshop set for 9:00 and
11:15:29 the rules and recommendations governing surface parking
11:15:32 10:00 you have a workshop regarding the consideration
11:15:36 of amendments to the historic district.
11:15:40 >>MARY MULHERN: 11.
11:15:42 >>GWEN MILLER: We have a motion and second.
11:15:44 All in favor say Aye.
11:15:46 Opposed, Nay.
11:15:48 We now go to item number 6.
11:15:52 >> Is there any backup on that?
11:16:44 >>THOM SNELLING: I do not have a formal presentation.
11:16:46 I have some of the information.
11:16:49 And, yes, I have some handouts for you.
11:16:51 I have the information on the actual state requirement
11:16:55 and what some other local jurisdictions and counties
11:16:59 around the state are doing as well as some of the
11:17:03 projects that we are working on.
11:17:05 So I have that.
11:17:07 And you had made mention about the items, you did
11:17:13 mention that already.
11:17:15 I can discuss that very quickly.
11:17:17 I can do that.
11:17:18 That may be a good place to start real quickly because
11:17:20 it's something that has been happening.
11:17:24 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: If I can make a suggestion.
11:17:29 I would like to request that council -- that we reverse
11:17:32 the typical order of this.
11:17:34 I think we know what the issue is, whether or not we
11:17:39 should be requiring the city to build to LEED silver,
11:17:48 period, to LEED silver and get a certificate to LEED
11:17:51 silver as compared to the way the code ends up getting
11:17:55 written which we don't need to get into because that's
11:17:59 It says right now shall be built to satisfy at a
11:18:01 minimum the current USGCG LEED silver stand standard
11:18:08 which has been interpreted not getting the certificate
11:18:10 but building to a certain level.
11:18:12 What I would like to do is reverse it because this is
11:18:15 not just council's issue; my issue, Linda's issue,
11:18:20 This is actually community that brought this up to
11:18:22 start with.
11:18:23 So I would like to hear from the community just to say
11:18:29 if they have a problem with it, if they don't have a
11:18:31 problem with it, whatever, and then we can hear from
11:18:36 staff sort of as rebuttal and then council to get into
11:18:39 It's a little bit different.
11:18:41 But I don't have a lot of time U.I have to be out of
11:18:43 here in about 15, 20 minutes.
11:18:45 >>MARY MULHERN: I think I can hear from Tom first if
11:18:48 he makes it quick, right?
11:18:51 And I do want to clarify that this didn't come up.
11:18:55 This came up because I put it on the agenda.
11:18:58 And I brought up the discussion that was -- and I very
11:19:03 much want to be able to have a discussion and hear from
11:19:07 the community.
11:19:08 But again we don't have the green community.
11:19:18 We called them neighborhood associations? They are not
11:19:21 neighborhood -- interest group or something?
11:19:23 Is that what it was?
11:19:25 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Special interest group.
11:19:26 >>MARY MULHERN: No.
11:19:27 Is that what you called it when we were talking about
11:19:29 increasing the public comment?
11:19:32 You said you wanted it to not be restricted to --
11:19:37 organized opposition.
11:19:38 So, anyway, the organized green building people aren't
11:19:43 So I do want to say that Mr. Shelby is pointing out
11:19:50 what I had asked him to, is just to reword it.
11:19:57 Let's hear from Tom.
11:19:58 Then hear from the public.
11:20:01 >>THOM SNELLING: Growth management development
11:20:02 I will be quick.
11:20:04 As John said, there's some interpretation of the
11:20:08 ordinance, that we need the LEED silver equivalency,
11:20:15 not actually getting a certificate.
11:20:17 And that's how we have applied it.
11:20:22 I went through and double checked and went back and
11:20:24 looked at the additional Florida energy plan, and --
11:20:38 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: What does strife mean?
11:20:42 >>THOM SNELLING: Strife?
11:20:43 It means to --
11:20:46 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: It doesn't have any weight.
11:20:50 >>THOM SNELLING: Right.
11:20:51 That's what's written here.
11:20:53 Very quickly just walking through the plan was adopted
11:20:57 to achieve a LEED standard.
11:20:59 No mention of certification.
11:21:01 Again, we enforce it in 2007 when it passed the
11:21:05 executive order and then the actual law house bill 7135
11:21:08 specified the LEED equivalent, et cetera, et cetera.
11:21:12 There was no specific requirements in the state
11:21:15 statutes to achieve a certification.
11:21:18 As you pointed out, they would strive to be those types
11:21:21 of things.
11:21:22 And the city pretty much modeled it's its -- we
11:21:29 actually took a lead requirement as well, and the way
11:21:33 that the state did it.
11:21:35 >>GWEN MILLER: How does the state implement that?
11:21:44 >>MARY MULHERN: Good question.
11:21:45 >>> All federal, court, state buildings, municipal
11:21:51 court, everything they are building and renovating,
11:21:54 they meet that and they check it against that.
11:21:57 How the state actually implements --
11:22:00 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: How are they getting LEED
11:22:02 certificates or not?
11:22:03 >> If they are actually getting LEED certification,
11:22:06 councilman, I don't know that.
11:22:07 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I think it's a pretty important
11:22:11 >>> I could see if they have been getting
11:22:15 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Because that's sort of the key
11:22:17 question here.
11:22:21 >>THOM SNELLING: To go around the other municipalities
11:22:23 and counties, it's about a 50-50 break between
11:22:27 municipalities and counties that actually requires LEED
11:22:30 certification and those that do not
11:22:33 Of those that we looked at, Broward County,
11:22:36 Gainesville, Jacksonville, Miami require LEED
11:22:39 certification as mandated in their codes.
11:22:42 Hillsborough County does not.
11:22:43 Orange County, Orlando and Sarasota, they do not
11:22:47 mandate, require LEED certification, though some of
11:22:50 their buildings are being registered and certified,
11:22:53 speaking directly to your question, but actually
11:22:55 required in the codes for Orange County, Orlando,
11:22:57 Sarasota, and Sarasota County, they are not.
11:23:00 Tallahassee is the same.
11:23:01 They are not actually required to get a LEED
11:23:03 certification, the certificate.
11:23:05 Their codes are written so that they meet that minimum
11:23:08 LEED standard.
11:23:09 The nuances of how they are achieving that, I don't
11:23:12 I know how we are doing it.
11:23:14 We are tracking.
11:23:15 We have a template and checklist that we have.
11:23:20 Dave could speak to that if you like.
11:23:21 But that's what it is.
11:23:22 It's not mandatory.
11:23:23 And some of the jurisdictions are getting certified in
11:23:28 registering their buildings.
11:23:29 Some are not.
11:23:30 So it's somewhat across the board in terms of the
11:23:34 individual interpretation of each of the communities
11:23:37 that we looked at.
11:23:38 At the state level, again, not required.
11:23:41 They may be getting certified or they may not be.
11:23:43 I don't know the actual information of how many of
11:23:47 their buildings happen to be LEED certified.
11:23:49 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone in the public like to
11:24:00 >>THOM SNELLING: And I have break down on costs of the
11:24:03 two buildings if would you like to see those.
11:24:05 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I would like to see those.
11:24:09 >>THOM SNELLING: Okay.
11:24:10 >>GWEN MILLER: Now we will hear from the public.
11:24:18 >> Randy Baron, west Comanche Avenue, president of
11:24:25 This issue came up at T.H.A.N. at our last meeting.
11:24:34 And the other concern that we have is what does the
11:24:37 actual certification which comes at a certain cost to
11:24:40 the city, what does it achieve?
11:24:43 And unless there are some tangible benefits that the
11:24:46 certifications will achieve over and above what the
11:24:48 city is actually doing, we were just questioning
11:24:51 whether or not it was an appropriate use of the funds
11:24:53 at this time.
11:24:54 So this was a motion at T.H.A.N. to just recommend that
11:24:58 unless there is a benefit to that, that the city keep
11:25:02 doing what it's doing now which is strive to achieve
11:25:04 that the LEED standards.
11:25:05 But not the certification.
11:25:10 Thank you
11:25:12 >> Spencer Kass for the Virginia park neighborhood
11:25:16 We have the exact same concern that T.H.A.N. had.
11:25:20 This sort of becomes more of a trust issue.
11:25:25 What staff is saying is accurate, not accurate.
11:25:27 Although we have many disagreements with staff, we have
11:25:30 known. Known staff to be dishonest with us.
11:25:33 Given the financial hardships that the city has, given
11:25:38 in six hours we are going to stand here and talk about
11:25:39 projects all over the city, that every neighborhood
11:25:41 association wants for their areas, we are going to hear
11:25:43 from the city there's not enough money, and times are
11:25:46 tough, and we just don't think this is an appropriate
11:25:48 time to do that.
11:25:49 As long as the city is actually constructing the
11:25:52 buildings to be economically energy efficient.
11:25:55 Thank you.
11:25:56 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
11:25:58 Any questions by council?
11:26:00 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes, actually, I meant to ask Thom
11:26:03 Snelling a question before you sat down.
11:26:07 How many city employees do we have who are LEED
11:26:13 certified to certify LEED buildings?
11:26:16 >>> Certified buildings, we don't -- none of our
11:26:21 employees actually certify.
11:26:22 We have two AP.
11:26:25 Dave has two in his contract administration.
11:26:27 I have one in my staff that looks at the fast track
11:26:31 permitting as well as whether or not they are meeting
11:26:34 our fast track requirements.
11:26:36 There's two people that I use that review our LEED.
11:26:40 David has one in his staff.
11:26:41 >> But they are staff people?
11:26:44 >>THOM SNELLING: Correct.
11:26:46 Would you not regulate and certify yourself.
11:26:48 That's bad policy to certify yourself as meeting a
11:26:52 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, this piece of paper that I just
11:26:59 got from Randy says they are estimating the
11:27:05 certification fee.
11:27:09 Maybe Randy, do you want to --
11:27:14 >>> That was mine.
11:27:15 >> Oh, this is yours?
11:27:20 All right, here is what I want to say.
11:27:27 Oh, wait, maybe I did have another question.
11:27:29 Oh, here is another question for you.
11:27:31 When the mayor signed the mayor's climate agreement,
11:27:37 was there a requirement that we have LEED certified --
11:27:41 build LEED certified?
11:27:44 >>THOM SNELLING: No.
11:27:45 No, ma'am.
11:27:45 >> Are you sure?
11:27:49 >>THOM SNELLING: Am I sure?
11:27:50 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay, that's it.
11:27:55 Here is way want to say, John.
11:27:57 Actually the thing that jogged me to put this on the
11:28:00 agenda was when I went to the TECO -- mayor's TECO
11:28:04 energy presentation, and the mayor herself talked about
11:28:10 how all new city buildings are built to LEED
11:28:14 certification, and she gave us an example that as an
11:28:18 example the new fire station that's going to be built.
11:28:23 So it just occurred to me that, you know, we had passed
11:28:26 this, and I wasn't happy when we didn't require
11:28:29 certification, because just like we heard from TECO
11:28:33 earlier today, you need regulation to enforce that you
11:28:41 do something.
11:28:41 So you can say you are going to build it up to the LEED
11:28:45 certification, but there is no reason why it will be
11:28:47 that way.
11:28:48 So I think it's empty and it leaves us with no
11:28:53 The other thing I wanted to say was that the tangible
11:29:01 The tangible benefits of building green are incredible.
11:29:06 It's better air quality, less carbon, you know, less
11:29:11 carbon output, less waste, less water use, less
11:29:16 resources used, and the reality is that green building
11:29:19 is becoming cheaper and cheaper every year, every day.
11:29:24 And it is the -- the market actually -- it actually has
11:29:28 a market benefit right now because that's about the
11:29:29 only things that people are willing to build or
11:29:33 So whatever money we would be spend on additional costs
11:29:37 for green building or some additional cost for getting
11:29:42 certification will be paid back.
11:29:45 And that's what the industry tells us.
11:29:47 The industry tells us that a 3% higher investment in
11:29:53 building -- I'm trying to find this.
11:29:59 I'm reading this.
11:30:02 Not only does it pay for itself, but it ends up giving
11:30:06 you a better return on your investment.
11:30:08 So it's a smart thing to do.
11:30:09 And the reality is, the city has the money to finance
11:30:15 and has the ability to finance it.
11:30:17 And we don't even have to do it ourselves.
11:30:19 There are all kinds of companies that are doing
11:30:24 financing these kinds of energy conservation measures
11:30:28 that would give you green certification.
11:30:32 Siemen's, Trane, Johnson controls, these huge companies
11:30:37 will finance at no cost to you, they guarantee.
11:30:39 They call it a performance-based contracting.
11:30:42 They guarantee if you do these measures to reduce your
11:30:47 carbon output and to do green modifications or green
11:30:51 buildings, they guarantee that it will pay back, and it
11:30:58 will not cost you anything, because you are paying --
11:31:03 you are financing the cost of that construction.
11:31:08 Based on future savings.
11:31:09 So you are paying back that loan through future
11:31:12 There's all kinds of creative ways we can do this.
11:31:15 And I just, you know, it saves you money in the end.
11:31:18 You have to think of it as a minimal investment.
11:31:21 And the idea that you don't need to be certified makes
11:31:29 no sense.
11:31:29 We know if you don't have accountability, doesn't get
11:31:33 And, you know, we are talking about this today with a
11:31:38 whole group of people, none of whom may even be here a
11:31:42 year from now.
11:31:43 So how do we know what's going to happen then?
11:31:45 That's why I want to write it into the ordinance that
11:31:47 LEED certification is actually gets certified, and it's
11:31:50 not just a standard.
11:31:51 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda?
11:31:56 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: I had my hand up.
11:31:58 Point of order.
11:32:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm not here to disrupt progress.
11:32:01 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Just for clarification I had my
11:32:05 hand up and was noticed before Mr. Miranda came back in
11:32:07 the room.
11:32:08 If Mr. Miranda would like to go first.
11:32:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, sir, I don't wants to disrupt
11:32:12 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: All right.
11:32:18 Thom, I don't know if you have a copy of the code.
11:32:22 But I'm sure you are familiar with it because I think
11:32:24 you are the one who implemented it.
11:32:26 On the other part of the code 17-5-204 -- Mr. Shelby
11:32:32 can give you a copy.
11:32:33 The other part of that code, you and I, other fine
11:32:38 folks in the community, create an incentive package to
11:32:44 encourage private development to build to lead
11:32:48 standards, and then in turn create incentives to build
11:32:54 LEED silver they get a 40% reduction rebate on their
11:32:58 building permit fees.
11:32:59 If they build the platinum they get an 80% reduction.
11:33:02 We concluded as a community and as a council that was
11:33:06 worthwhile to encourage construction, with lead
11:33:11 certification, that that was a worthwhile thing for our
11:33:19 And as a community we were willing to pay for it.
11:33:24 We didn't say that you can get that up to 80% rebate on
11:33:29 your building fees by building to a USGBC LEED
11:33:35 We said if you get that certificate, show it to us,
11:33:39 we'll give you the rebate.
11:33:42 >> Correct.
11:33:47 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Why would we treat the private
11:33:50 sector differently than we treat ourselves? And let
11:33:51 me -- it's sort of a rhetorical question because I
11:33:54 think you are going to point to his five people and say
11:33:58 that we trust them, but we don't trust the private
11:34:04 We don't trust the private sector so we hold them to a
11:34:07 different standard, if you want this rebate back then
11:34:10 you have to get this certificate.
11:34:11 But we trust ourselves to do the right thing.
11:34:14 Now, do I trust David and his people?
11:34:18 I don't know his people.
11:34:19 But I trust David because he's been here a long time
11:34:22 and he's a good guy, a pretty straight shatter and he
11:34:25 does tell the truth.
11:34:27 I might not always like what he says but he tells the
11:34:30 That's fine.
11:34:30 But as Mary pointed out, I have got a feeling next five
11:34:35 years, David might not desire to keep working in this
11:34:39 area, might want to take a retirement, five or ten
11:34:41 years, whatever he wants, he's going to retire.
11:34:44 This council is going to be changing.
11:34:46 You are going to be gone, et cetera, and I think Mary's
11:34:49 point is very well taken, that if we codify it, then it
11:34:52 doesn't matter who we trust and don't trust, who is in
11:34:55 place, what mayor is in place, what staff is in place
11:34:57 that this is a requirement of the city, that if the
11:35:01 city goes forward in the future and build new buildings
11:35:02 that they be built to that standard, not just to the
11:35:05 standard but they will be certified to that standard.
11:35:08 That's sort of a speech.
11:35:11 If you have anything different than what I said, I'll
11:35:12 let you chime in in a minute.
11:35:13 The only other question I had is you gave a range on
11:35:17 this piece of paper about the Spring Hill community
11:35:20 You said, well, E -- and I appreciate your candor --
11:35:24 somewhere between 15,000 and 51,000 additional dollars
11:35:27 to get LEED certified.
11:35:29 What was the total cost of the Spring Hill community
11:35:34 $2 million?
11:35:36 So, David, you got a calculator on you, I bet.
11:35:42 Anyway, Charlie, you are a whiz at math.
11:35:43 If I split the baby of Spring Hill, that's $30,000.
11:35:48 So it's $30,000 and the $2 million facility, what does
11:35:53 that sound like?
11:35:56 So I want to put in the perspective.
11:35:58 I'm not saying $30,000 is nothing.
11:36:00 But I'm saying it might be a 1% additional investment
11:36:04 to guarantee that that in our future buildings are
11:36:08 going to be built really tight and really well and
11:36:11 really green.
11:36:11 The same thing on the fire station, David.
11:36:14 What was that total?
11:36:16 Fire station 22.
11:36:19 A million bucks?
11:36:22 That comes out to about the same thing.
11:36:24 We split the baby.
11:36:25 It's $15,000.
11:36:26 If it's a million dollars construction again it's about
11:36:33 So I don't know where this is going to go.
11:36:35 I think Ms. Mulhern did a good job of proposing a tweak
11:36:38 to 15-503 which basically says that future
11:36:43 administrative buildings will get LEED silver
11:36:46 I think that's what the governor did several years ago.
11:36:49 If he's backed off since then I don't know.
11:36:51 >> Dave Andre, contract administration.
11:36:56 I would like to comment on the numbers that you have
11:36:58 been given.
11:36:58 And quite frankly, I don't agree with you.
11:37:01 Thom has done a good job researching some standards and
11:37:04 some sort of guidelines that are out there.
11:37:07 Our real world experience in getting numbers on what it
11:37:10 would cost are substantially higher than the numbers
11:37:13 that you have there.
11:37:14 And, again, whatever dollar we spend on this will come
11:37:19 out of capital funds and directly affect the ability
11:37:23 of --
11:37:25 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Can I ask one question about that,
11:37:26 And I sort of asked this when Steve Daignault and I
11:37:29 were having a discussion about the spring hills
11:37:32 I said, why don't we bid it both ways? Why don't we
11:37:36 bid it as an option and say, here is the standard
11:37:41 package, know, build it just you build Spring Hill and
11:37:45 fire station 22 and then give us the same building with
11:37:48 the green -- the silver certificate LEED.
11:37:52 And if you throw that out to the real world, then you
11:37:55 and I don't have any more speculation.
11:37:59 Then the real world comes back and says, okay, here it
11:38:02 is, both ways, and then we know exactly what the number
11:38:06 >> You can't do that because the process physically or
11:38:12 philosophically won't allow to you do that.
11:38:15 That's because the lead LEED certification process
11:38:19 starts from day one of the process with your design
11:38:21 And the numbers that we are talking about here are
11:38:25 out-of-pocket costs to consultants to do the
11:38:29 certification process.
11:38:30 The improvements to the building are already in the
11:38:34 But to get the certification, you have got to do the
11:38:37 third-party documentation work in order to get the
11:38:42 So you can't bid it that way.
11:38:44 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: Well, hear what you are saying and
11:38:49 I would agree a little bit.
11:38:50 But I think you can do it as a combination.
11:38:53 If you ask your consultant to work on it both ways
11:38:56 upfront, put together a bid package both ways, you
11:38:59 know, then yes, you have got some upfront cost was your
11:39:03 consultant doing it that way, but at the end of the day
11:39:04 I can't help but think a lot of those costs also are in
11:39:09 the construction and then the follow-through part of
11:39:11 it, you know, that frankly would be the GC's
11:39:17 >> The costs that you are seeing there are not GC
11:39:21 The effort to build to what we have designed and are
11:39:25 putting in the building is in the bid.
11:39:27 To give you a real world example, what we did, I think,
11:39:31 in essence what you asked us to do on fire station 22,
11:39:35 which by the way is a smaller building that requires
11:39:37 this in the ordinance, but we wanted to do it anyway,
11:39:41 is when we began that design process, the price that we
11:39:45 got just to do the certification portion for the
11:39:49 mechanical system alone exceeds the number that you
11:39:51 have on that piece of paper.
11:39:53 And so a decision we were faced with is what's the best
11:40:00 way to spend our money?
11:40:02 To build to that standard, to do documentation, when we
11:40:06 haven't -- you haven't asked us what are we doing to
11:40:10 ensure that we meet that equivalency?
11:40:13 We decided we need to meet the equivalency but we
11:40:16 needed to not spend those funds for those activities.
11:40:19 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Mulhern?
11:40:25 Mr. Miranda?
11:40:26 >>JOHN DINGFELDER: One more question.
11:40:28 When are you retiring, David?
11:40:30 >> I'm 57 years old.
11:40:33 Beyond that, you know, as long as my health is good and
11:40:36 you gays don't beat me up too bad --
11:40:45 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Miranda.
11:40:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Rule C-4-17, a council member who
11:40:50 has not spoken has the floor first.
11:40:52 I don't know if that's the right rule but I mention one
11:40:56 I'm sorry.
11:40:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I was waiting for you.
11:40:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say this.
11:41:01 I really understand what you are trying to do.
11:41:07 How many in the audience here and how many on this dais
11:41:10 have solar water heater, solar?
11:41:13 Not too many.
11:41:14 How many of us have double insulated windows?
11:41:18 Not too many.
11:41:18 How many of us have new inside insulation between the
11:41:22 walls and the drywall?
11:41:23 Not too many.
11:41:24 How many of us meet qualifications for the astronauts?
11:41:28 not too many. In fact, none.
11:41:32 So here we are trying to work on something that will be
11:41:37 a duplicate of itself without paying a country club
11:41:41 setting fee to get a certificate.
11:41:46 How many of us have certificates of different kinds?
11:41:48 All of us do.
11:41:51 What does that mean?
11:41:53 That means you pay something.
11:41:55 The other day I was at the doctor's office and I saw a
11:41:58 certificate on the wall that says doctor of the year,
11:42:03 And I went to the other doctor who didn't have a
11:42:05 And I said, let me ask you something.
11:42:07 I said, am I going to the right doctor or should I go
11:42:10 to the one that says doctor of the year?
11:42:12 He said that costs $250 a year.
11:42:14 Why should I buy a certificate?
11:42:19 Is my doctor any better or worse than the other one?
11:42:22 I don't think so.
11:42:23 I think he's better.
11:42:24 But that's what it means.
11:42:26 That's what today's society has gotten to.
11:42:28 If I believe that the people will come here, unless I
11:42:33 have reasonable doubt that they are not saying the
11:42:35 facts, which I haven't seen or seen expressed, then I
11:42:40 have to believe that what they are doing is the right
11:42:44 When you start to buy materials and -- I would
11:42:50 imagine -- I'm not a constructer, not an engineer, I
11:42:54 don't work in that area, but would imagine to build
11:42:59 something qualified to meet whatever the qualification
11:43:00 is of the LEED family -- I am going to call it family
11:43:02 because they make money off it -- would be 2 to 5%.
11:43:06 What does at that time to get your payback?
11:43:09 Within three years.
11:43:11 So you have got to be an IQ of a minus something not to
11:43:14 build something that you are going to get your payback
11:43:18 within two or three years.
11:43:20 So we want to put it, when we start putting things in
11:43:25 black and white, that's exactly how you have got to
11:43:28 read them in black and white.
11:43:29 There's no gray.
11:43:32 There is no gray.
11:43:33 And without no gray you can't move from one end zone to
11:43:36 the other.
11:43:37 Because then you are stuck in your own tracks.
11:43:41 I am not one to be spend money without getting a
11:43:46 If I want to get the product, and I don't have to spend
11:43:48 the money, guess what, I'm not going to spend the
11:43:51 I'm going to get that product, and I am going to get
11:43:55 that built according to the best technology available
11:43:59 at the time that I built that building.
11:44:02 Whatever building it may be.
11:44:08 There's a lot of construction that more than likely
11:44:10 will be coming in the future.
11:44:11 I don't see why the city can't set aside -- you don't
11:44:17 have to call it this name, that name.
11:44:18 Just call it city new whatever.
11:44:21 And get it done under a system that creates the same
11:44:25 results without adding a burdensome on that cost.
11:44:30 That cost will be borne by the people who buy the
11:44:36 building or lease the building.
11:44:39 Somewhere along the line that bottom line is influenced
11:44:42 by the cost of these certificates.
11:44:46 And Madam Chair, I'm just trying to reason this thing
11:44:51 out in a reasonable manner.
11:44:54 And if this city is telling me that they are going to
11:44:57 meet and exceed -- and I don't know how many of you
11:45:00 have solar, like I said, new windows, or went to TECO
11:45:04 and got an energy audit, not too many, I don't think.
11:45:10 So if the city is Tampa is telling me they are going to
11:45:15 adhere to that, then I have to believe the presenters,
11:45:17 and I have to believe the legal department, and I have
11:45:20 to believe the mayor, whoever the mayor is.
11:45:22 I have yet to serve with a mayor, any mayor, who has
11:45:29 not done something that they say they would do and
11:45:33 didn't do it later on.
11:45:34 They have all done it.
11:45:35 Maybe not the right way that I felt was right, but they
11:45:38 succeeded in getting it done.
11:45:40 So that's all I have got to say, Madam Chair.
11:45:43 And I rest my case.
11:45:44 >>GWEN MILLER: We have 15 minutes.
11:45:47 We are losing one now.
11:45:49 We are going to lose some more.
11:45:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Mr. Dingfelder?
11:45:58 9 we have to move to number 7.
11:46:00 We have to get out of here in 15 minutes.
11:46:03 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: While he's coming up I want to say
11:46:07 the reason we are replacing the windows on City Hall is
11:46:12 because we, the city, know in our own historic
11:46:18 preservation offices were guilty of neglecting their
11:46:21 So we are replacing the historic windows with plastic
11:46:29 because we didn't follow our own rules, and sometimes
11:46:31 we do have to write things down.
11:46:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me answer that.
11:46:37 Was an economic things.
11:46:38 Every ten years, I have been here longs enough that
11:46:40 these windows of course replaced twice at a cost you
11:46:43 could have built five houses for those who didn't have
11:46:45 the money to buy one.
11:46:47 Maybe ten houses.
11:46:49 These windows that are coming in look exactly like what
11:46:52 you have here.
11:46:53 And I don't believe they are plastic, I believe they
11:46:54 are aluminum because in this hot weather humid weather
11:46:59 plastic as has a chance of crumbling and falling apart.
11:47:02 And I mentioned the central building in West Tampa.
11:47:05 They were replaced and three years later I went with a
11:47:08 pen like this to the windowsill, and my pen rite went
11:47:11 right through the windowsill.
11:47:13 You have to change.
11:47:18 They look alike.
11:47:19 They look identical.
11:47:20 It doesn't change the character of the building.
11:47:22 Doesn't change the historic value of the building.
11:47:25 If you talk about history maybe this building should
11:47:27 have air conditioning.
11:47:28 But it wasn't like that historical.
11:47:29 >> Randy Goers, land development.
11:47:35 I have a presentation on the transportation review
11:47:40 I know your time is limited.
11:47:42 I will go through the presentation as quick as
11:47:44 But if you can hold your questions till the end, that
11:47:47 will allow me to get through it and I will try to sped
11:47:49 up -- speed up some of the areas and maybe follow up
11:47:54 with questions.
11:48:01 I want to start off.
11:48:02 This is the first review parameters for our
11:48:04 transportation review.
11:48:05 It's the current transportation concurrency exception
11:48:08 Basically, you see there's three different areas of the
11:48:10 city, the overall city, the old part of the city, the
11:48:14 areas in the blue and green.
11:48:15 And under those review procedures today, by and large
11:48:19 the developer comes in, and they pay an impact fee, and
11:48:22 they move on to development.
11:48:24 Unless it is a large development causing impact on a
11:48:27 constrained roadway, there is no further review
11:48:30 throughout the city.
11:48:33 In the comp plan we approved the vision that called for
11:48:35 encouraging development in the business centers around
11:48:37 downtown, Westshore, USF, and along the mixed use
11:48:42 corridors that are in brown.
11:48:45 We have evolved into this concept for the
11:48:47 transportation review procedures.
11:48:48 And you can see from two different maps that we are not
11:48:51 moving from the city being one color, one review
11:48:54 standard now to a different standard.
11:48:56 And basically the math is a little bit -- the map, you
11:48:59 have to look at it from a reverse low. Everything in
11:49:02 the color, the orange and the green, stays pretty much
11:49:04 the same.
11:49:05 Those are the areas we want to encourage development so
11:49:07 we want the review procedures to be a little less
11:49:11 Everything that's in white is going to have greater
11:49:12 review standards.
11:49:13 And those are the areas of the neighborhoods.
11:49:16 In the in-fill areas where are we wanted to begin
11:49:18 protecting neighborhoods from adverse impacts of
11:49:23 Here last we talked about this map and about the
11:49:25 procedures that they were going to vary by location,
11:49:27 that we are going to emphasize transit service in
11:49:30 proximity, that there was any emphasis on pedestrian
11:49:33 connectivity and neighborhood impacts and follow up
11:49:36 aligning our CIP program to support it.
11:49:38 I also mentioned that the pedestrian connectivity in
11:49:40 the neighborhood impacts with things that had special
11:49:44 problems that we are still looking at and they were
11:49:46 going to maybe change from the time we first really
11:49:48 thought about it until we were at today.
11:49:50 We talked about the public input process, and we were
11:49:54 going to meet with the external stakeholders.
11:49:56 We have three large stakeholder meetings, a number of
11:49:59 briefings, what you see there.
11:50:01 We also convened a group of professional engineers,
11:50:04 people who have do this work all the time, do
11:50:07 transportation studies, who are familiar with
11:50:10 concurrency of Tampa as well as other cities.
11:50:12 We wanted them to put up to peer review of our
11:50:17 Everything is on our project Web site.
11:50:19 Of course you have City Council workshops.
11:50:20 And we are here today.
11:50:23 Throughout the process, we have had 53 comments and
11:50:27 I think you should have received this report in your
11:50:32 If you haven't, I'll provide this to you now.
11:50:42 Every question that we have during the meetings or
11:50:44 e-mails we put it -- we record it and we have the staff
11:50:49 discuss the questions and the comments and provide
11:50:52 feedback where we needed clarification.
11:50:56 In many respects there were some recommendations that
11:50:57 we followed through, and revised the procedures
11:51:01 I am not going to go through all the comments because
11:51:03 you can scan them at your leisure.
11:51:05 But generally the comments came back in different types
11:51:10 of comments.
11:51:10 There were comments about the procedures being too
11:51:13 complex, that they were not user friendly, they really
11:51:19 Very specifically relate to a larger picture of what
11:51:20 the city was doing.
11:51:22 They suggested case study examples and so forth.
11:51:25 Weave we had questions just clarifying what the
11:51:27 procedures meant.
11:51:27 A lot of them from the engineers.
11:51:30 You will read the questions and then all of a sudden
11:51:32 you will get to a question where you know it's from an
11:51:35 engineer because they are looking for technical
11:51:38 There were concerns about the procedures might increase
11:51:41 review times, and the costs to development.
11:51:46 A number of questions about the feasibility and the
11:51:49 legal requirements for the pedestrian connectivity and
11:51:51 the neighborhood mitigation requirements.
11:51:53 And then a number of questions on impact fees, mobility
11:51:56 fees, impact fee credits and so forth.
11:51:58 All those questions were in the report.
11:52:00 And as you can see we did provide answers and in some
11:52:03 cases a recommended change to the procedures based on
11:52:07 I think on page 3 of the report, you will see the list
11:52:10 of all the participants.
11:52:13 As you can see there's a number of people from
11:52:16 different disciplines that were involved in this.
11:52:17 As you go through the names they are very familiar,
11:52:20 been involved in development issues from both sides,
11:52:22 from the neighborhood, from recommending developments
11:52:26 from realty, and so forth, and I think we had a very
11:52:32 diverse group of experts who are the participating
11:52:37 I think we got some good feedback from the overall
11:52:41 Let me run through really some of the key observations,
11:52:44 of people wanting to know how the procedures work.
11:52:47 I will try to get through these as quick as possible to
11:52:49 give you an idea of how they will work and how they
11:52:51 will encourage development and protect neighborhoods.
11:52:53 The first one has to do with the concept called
11:52:56 de minimis.
11:52:57 We hear this all the time.
11:52:58 Basically here is an example of how it works.
11:53:00 If you have a two-lane highway de minimis basically
11:53:04 means that from a state statute, up to 2% of the road's
11:53:08 capacity can be used for development without any other
11:53:11 types of reviews or requirements.
11:53:14 That's a very loose interpretation.
11:53:16 The way you figure it out, off two lane undivided road,
11:53:21 it's de minimis is 23 trips, basically a development
11:53:23 that can generate 23 trips or less you can move forward
11:53:27 with the impact fee and no further study.
11:53:30 That might be something like this.
11:53:31 A hypothetical site of 50 town homes.
11:53:35 You apply the standard trip generation, it has 26
11:53:37 So in this case, the development would be called
11:53:42 deMIMIMUS, and not do 50, you might do 46, something to
11:53:49 get below the threshold, or say I need to have those 50
11:53:52 town homes, I'm willing to do the transportation study
11:53:54 so I know what I have to mitigate.
11:53:56 Take that same development to a four-lane highway, like
11:54:01 Dale Mabry, and you can see that the de minimis number
11:54:09 increases because capacity increases, so again that
11:54:09 developer can move forward.
11:54:09 What de minimis does, it allows development to proceed
11:54:12 based on the size of the roadway facility.
11:54:15 We heard some concerns, it was going to stop
11:54:19 development throughout the city but de minimis is a
11:54:22 built-in mechanism to allow development.
11:54:24 All through the city development can occur at different
11:54:26 levels according to the road that it's serving.
11:54:31 Transit corridors, this is new in the procedures
11:54:34 You want to take de minimis has been with us for 20
11:54:37 years, a state statute.
11:54:39 It's always had that provision.
11:54:40 It doesn't change.
11:54:41 This is a new provision, though.
11:54:42 With the idea of trying to encourage development along
11:54:44 the primary transit corridor.
11:54:46 And this example Kennedy Boulevard would be a primary
11:54:50 transit corridor.
11:54:51 It's a quarter mile distance is what we call the
11:54:54 transit corridor.
11:54:55 Here is an example of the project.
11:54:57 The public's -- it would fit into this corridor.
11:55:01 We had questions about how would be this fit into all
11:55:04 the other regulations that the city has.
11:55:05 In this case all the other regulations that the city
11:55:08 has are in effect.
11:55:10 The review, the design standards, the access, the
11:55:13 parking standards, all those things stay in effect so
11:55:17 this project would be built exactly the same way.
11:55:21 The difference would be moving forward it would not be
11:55:23 required to complete the transportation study.
11:55:25 Now if it was just one block south, it would have to
11:55:28 complete the transportation study.
11:55:30 It would then be up to the developer again to say,
11:55:33 well, do I want to move forward with the transportation
11:55:36 study and look at those impacts?
11:55:38 Or do I want to seek a different location?
11:55:41 In many respect it is transportation study just will
11:55:43 verify or identify what needs to be improved.
11:55:47 And in some cases, there may be some minor improvements
11:55:49 to maybe some additional improvements that need to be
11:55:56 In the special areas that we have to consider with the
11:55:57 ordinance, we have presently five areas in the city
11:56:00 which are called no-impact fee areas, to encourage
11:56:05 economic development in West Tampa, East Tampa, and so
11:56:07 We need to retain those areas moving forward.
11:56:11 We didn't think it was fair to exempt them from impact
11:56:14 fees but then make them pay for a transportation study
11:56:16 and impact improvements later on so we are going to
11:56:18 retain those areas.
11:56:19 We also have areas that by virtue of the master
11:56:23 transportation plan is already addressed through
11:56:25 transportation needs.
11:56:26 That's the port, the airport and USF.
11:56:29 And we thought the master transportation plans are one
11:56:33 way to deal with the situations of the future.
11:56:35 The ordinance, anytime you have an ordinance, there's
11:56:38 always going to be an area that you think are covered
11:56:40 and maybe needs special attention.
11:56:42 So we can always do a transportation plan to address an
11:56:45 area from a holistic standpoint and come back with the
11:56:52 So how do we really protect neighborhoods?
11:56:54 What does the ordinance do to move forward and protect
11:56:58 This is the -- this is how it would be handled.
11:57:02 The project would come in, larger than can be
11:57:06 accommodated by the statute.
11:57:08 But today they would just pay their impact fee and move
11:57:12 Moving forward, what they need to do is really take a
11:57:15 look at the intersection that they are going to be
11:57:17 impacting and the road that they face.
11:57:19 When you think about problems that occur into
11:57:22 neighborhoods in terms of traffic, where it begins is
11:57:25 at the intersection.
11:57:26 Because traffic backs up, the road can't accommodate it
11:57:29 and people want to move into the neighborhood.
11:57:31 So moving forward, the development in the in-fill and
11:57:34 neighborhood areas will now have to take a look at
11:57:37 their impact of the neighborhood and also on the road
11:57:39 that they fund and mitigate for their impacts.
11:57:44 Some developments are much larger than one lot
11:57:49 development that's going to impact one neighborhood.
11:57:52 They might have in this example of over 2 that you
11:57:58 A few slides ago when the example was only 23 trips,
11:58:00 now we are talking about a development of 2200 trips.
11:58:04 That particular project or projects like that might
11:58:06 impact this road.
11:58:08 It might impact that road.
11:58:09 This road.
11:58:11 And that road.
11:58:12 And along that the intersections and requirements.
11:58:15 So the ordinance looks at very large projects that are
11:58:17 affecting something larger than just the adjacent
11:58:21 intersection but it's going to affect the system around
11:58:23 it and call for development to look at that and begin
11:58:27 mitigating their impacts.
11:58:31 State Road impacts.
11:58:32 We talked about mostly it arises out of impact of
11:58:38 The roads that you see on red are currently the roads
11:58:42 that are failing, and probably have neighborhood
11:58:46 intrusion at this point or they have backed up
11:58:49 Moving forward, development will need to -- that
11:58:54 affects these roadways, I should say, are going to have
11:58:57 to do analysis of how or verify the intersection is
11:59:03 failing, if the intersection is failing then they are
11:59:05 going to have to take a look at the neighborhoods
11:59:08 around and generate a neighborhood offset, neighborhood
11:59:14 traffic solution.
11:59:15 Excuse me.
11:59:16 So in the areas where problems are already occurring,
11:59:19 and the development is going to make that situation
11:59:21 worse, at the intersection is already failing, that's
11:59:24 when they are going to need to take a look at the
11:59:26 impact of the neighborhood, and recommend some traffic
11:59:28 calming solutions.
11:59:30 And it will be funded by a portion of the fee that they
11:59:35 will pay for their mitt mitigation of the
11:59:41 Connectivity, this is an area, provision that we put
11:59:43 in, and we felt that it needed additional study.
11:59:47 There were just too many questions about the concept of
11:59:50 requiring a property owner to put a pedestrian
11:59:53 connection off the site, on another parcel that wasn't
11:59:59 There were questions about does he get impacts, will he
12:00:03 get credit if somebody else comes in later on, will
12:00:05 they be able to claim that as part of their pedestrian
12:00:09 Will the original property owner get compensated?
12:00:11 There were enough questions that every time we tried to
12:00:14 address the question, another question came back, we
12:00:16 get to the point where we say, maybe this isn't the
12:00:18 best way of handling this particular provision.
12:00:20 So we are recommending that it be brought into the
12:00:26 Tampa bicycle pedestrian study, transportation MP or
12:00:30 are getting ready to move on, that study the pedestrian
12:00:34 activity of the primary transit corridors and then come
12:00:36 back with a solution, whether it's back in the
12:00:39 ordinance or a different solution.
12:00:41 But we felt that the questions we were getting, we
12:00:44 could not handle it, in this ordinance in the most
12:00:47 effective way.
12:00:48 So basically we are going to be bringing back to you an
12:00:51 ordinance which includes these items.
12:00:54 The de minimis impacts, the impact fee requirements, no
12:00:57 impact fee zones, we are going to allow for the master
12:01:00 transportation plans and recognize he if those five
12:01:04 things already exist we are going to bring those
12:01:07 We are going to add the transit primary transit
12:01:10 corridors, and the development along those corridors,
12:01:17 from the transportation studies along the corridors.
12:01:19 We are going to bring in the greater review
12:01:21 requirements in the in-fill and neighborhood area.
12:01:23 That critical intersection requirement, and the
12:01:27 enhanced network impact analysis.
12:01:30 And then we are going to bring in the neighborhood
12:01:34 offset program, or requirements.
12:01:36 Also, we are heard that there was need for something
12:01:40 more user friendly in terms of the permitting, so we
12:01:42 are going to put together the application requirements,
12:01:45 make it easier for people to understand what they need
12:01:49 or how it's going to work, and continue working with
12:01:50 Hillsborough County on the mobility fee.
12:01:54 Complete the bicycle and pedestrian study and bring
12:01:56 back any recommendations from that on connectivity.
12:01:59 We are going to work with the Construction Services
12:02:01 Center on looking at the -- they are going to give us a
12:02:06 record of the permits that have come through in a
12:02:08 90-day period so we can identify which one of those met
12:02:12 the de minimis criteria, which would have gone through
12:02:16 the different review parameters.
12:02:19 Part of that is to get an idea of the work flow.
12:02:21 Part of it transportation will be looking at whether
12:02:24 it's going to require any fees on their part to do any
12:02:28 additional reviews. There was question about the whole
12:02:30 review requirement.
12:02:31 We want to quantify that before the ordinance is
12:02:34 And we are going to put a provision in the ordinance to
12:02:37 require periodic review.
12:02:39 It's a couple of provisions are new, and we know there
12:02:42 is always a what-if scenario that we may not have
12:02:45 thought about today but an annual review allows to us
12:02:48 look back it -- at it and make changes as needed.
12:02:52 Here is our schedule.
12:02:52 We hope to finalize it within the next month.
12:02:54 That will be the chapter 25 and 17.5.
12:03:00 We will bring back the procedure manuals, hopefully by
12:03:04 It will go to the Planning Commission.
12:03:05 Then probably by late August, early September back for
12:03:08 City Council approval.
12:03:10 And I'm leaving with you this picture of where we are
12:03:12 at today and where we hope to go in terms of our
12:03:15 And I know I have gone very quick will you but happen
12:03:18 to answer any questions.
12:03:20 We also have the transportation consultant back here as
12:03:23 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone from the public like to
12:03:26 >> Good afternoon now, council.
12:03:36 Randy Baron, 217 west Comanche, president of T.H.A.N.
12:03:40 This is an issue that T.H.A.N. has been working with
12:03:43 Randy on many occasions.
12:03:46 He's given his time to come and brief us, both at a
12:03:51 regular T.H.A.N. meeting and a zoning meeting and we
12:03:54 also had representatives at the workshops.
12:03:59 T.H.A.N., traditionally we have always disliked the TCA
12:04:05 and the fact that there was no way to mitigate
12:04:07 transportation impacts on these developments.
12:04:10 During the comp plan hearings, everyone from T.H.A.N.
12:04:14 encouraged some changes to the TCA, and that got into
12:04:18 the comp plan, and this is now the enabling, I guess,
12:04:21 ordinance for that.
12:04:22 We were concerned that we didn't fully understand the
12:04:25 impact of how the enable ordinance is going to work.
12:04:30 And there were questions that were raised.
12:04:32 I had questions.
12:04:33 Margaret, Sue and some other people had some questions.
12:04:36 Randy has been very generous in giving his time to
12:04:38 answer those questions.
12:04:39 But still until I saw this presentation, I didn't
12:04:42 really fully see the big picture.
12:04:44 I want to commend him for putting together a
12:04:46 presentation that used case studies and examples,
12:04:50 because that's what we really need to see.
12:04:52 We need to see what happens when a development goes on
12:04:55 X parcel and how these procedures are going to impact
12:04:58 that and how those are going.
12:05:04 There are ten pages of questions that were generated,
12:05:06 one in particular that came from T.H.A.N., and I would
12:05:11 bring your attention to number 35 on page 6 which is
12:05:13 the issue of whether or not this is going to encourage
12:05:16 intrusion into neighborhoods.
12:05:19 Which is something of course that's near and dear to
12:05:23 As the response states, yes, there is potential but
12:05:25 that potential would also mean they would have to
12:05:29 satisfy other things like rezonings.
12:05:31 So this council is going to be to a certain degree a
12:05:35 buffer zone to make sure the land use and rezonings, if
12:05:38 they take place, are consistent and protect the
12:05:41 We want to make sure that all this additional density
12:05:43 takes place along the corridors, and not into the
12:05:46 That was a big concern of ours.
12:05:49 But we also wanted -- and we commend these procedures
12:05:52 that are going to make sure that there are additional
12:05:55 transportation mitigations.
12:05:56 There's nothing worse than having a development go up
12:05:58 and not being able to make a left-hand turn, because
12:06:02 now there's all this additional traffic.
12:06:05 It's happened near me where I fear getting hit because
12:06:12 I can't pull in because of additional traffic.
12:06:13 Lights are failing.
12:06:14 Roads are failing.
12:06:15 We think this is going to go a long way into helping
12:06:18 resolve those issues.
12:06:19 But we also want to make sure that when these enabling
12:06:23 ordinances come before you, and they come in
12:06:25 piecemeal-this one is TCA and transportation manual
12:06:29 will be additional ones -- that council sees the big
12:06:33 picture on how all of these fit together to support the
12:06:36 comp plan policies, and T.H.A.N. is always looking to
12:06:39 make sure that we protect neighborhoods and that any
12:06:45 negative impacts are mitigated in the neighborhoods.
12:06:48 Thank you.
12:06:48 >> Spencer Kass.
12:06:53 This time I'm here not only for Virginia park but as
12:06:56 the East Tampa land use chairman, people of West Tampa
12:06:58 that I have spoken to about this.
12:07:00 I want to start by expressing my gratitude to staff and
12:07:03 the time they spent.
12:07:04 I can tell you, I spent over 12 meetings in -- hours in
12:07:07 meetings with this.
12:07:09 East Tampa and West Tampa will continue with their
12:07:11 I would like to see -- because they are up for
12:07:13 renewal -- are up for renewal before anything is passed
12:07:16 just to make sure we are on the same page for the
12:07:17 renewals for those areas.
12:07:19 I have a couple of issues.
12:07:22 I think we need to look at this holistically with the
12:07:25 rest of the code.
12:07:25 I think legal needs to look at the entire process that
12:07:27 you go through.
12:07:30 Answer it is staff question.
12:07:31 Some of these questions staff says, you know, it's
12:07:33 possible that more time will be required for some
12:07:36 We say -- they say that in a extra time will be
12:07:39 required for other things.
12:07:40 Let's put that in the code.
12:07:41 Let's codify it.
12:07:44 Just like it takes seven days now, let's put it in code
12:07:47 seven days.
12:07:49 You just had a discussion about taking everybody at
12:07:52 their word.
12:07:53 Let's hold people to standards that are easy to
12:07:55 recognize so everybody knows where they stand when they
12:07:57 go in for something.
12:07:58 My concern is, if you go in for change of use under
12:08:01 this, part of the review now is going to be
12:08:03 transportation review.
12:08:04 So an already existing building, I go in for small
12:08:10 change of use that doesn't come before council and all
12:08:11 of a sudden the transportation department starts to get
12:08:13 I don't see that being a simpler, better process at a
12:08:17 time when we are trying to create jobs.
12:08:19 We have done everything we can to try to create jobs,
12:08:21 to try to get people to work.
12:08:23 And with all due respect to the transportation division
12:08:25 parts of those are going in the opposite direction.
12:08:29 Adds some more bureaucracy, adds some more cost to. Me
12:08:31 that's very concerning.
12:08:32 I don't see overall -- I would much rather see you
12:08:36 delay this and let staff come in with two suggestions
12:08:41 on how to make it easier so we can create jobs in the
12:08:45 Why don't we focus on that?
12:08:46 I don't see any rush for this at this moment.
12:08:49 There's a lot of things city staff says we'll come back
12:08:52 with what the fees will be, come back with simpler
12:08:54 I think what we need to do is let them come up with the
12:08:57 simpler charts, let them work with legal and the fee
12:09:00 schedule so we can see what the entire process and
12:09:03 procedure will be, schedule another workshop, let them
12:09:05 explain all their changes,.
12:09:11 So R.
12:09:15 >> Thank you.
12:09:16 I think that this is a very good study.
12:09:23 >> Ron Weaver, 401 East Jackson Street.
12:09:26 I want to thank your staff and legal and all of the
12:09:28 hard work that they put into this.
12:09:30 They really listened during those 53 questions and they
12:09:33 gave us good answers on the spot where they could and
12:09:36 they worked on them.
12:09:36 This is a really amazing combination of talent and
12:09:40 willingness to work with all of us on these real
12:09:44 Quick encouragements as we finish together.
12:09:47 Number one, there not be double dipping where we are
12:09:49 double charged.
12:09:50 I think your staff is sensitive to that.
12:09:51 We asked in those 53 questions to prevent double
12:09:54 dipping and wave to remain sensitive.
12:09:56 Number two is transit oriented development when the
12:09:58 time comes, we don't want to be brittle about transit
12:10:03 oriented development.
12:10:04 We want to of have more incentives as we provided with
12:10:07 additional incentives.
12:10:09 Example, a five in a impact fee zones, there needs tock
12:10:12 a sixth or seventh if they have a sufficient compelling
12:10:16 case with respect to the transit like the train stop,
12:10:20 for example there.
12:10:21 May be a second or third.
12:10:23 Only one or two more emphatic and compelling with
12:10:27 respect to where we do need to emphasize the
12:10:29 concentration of our development to increase ridership
12:10:33 and to enable transit oriented development to make the
12:10:35 whole system work.
12:10:36 Number three is to continue to be mindful of each case
12:10:40 study example so we can figure out if it is more
12:10:44 We do need more translation into laymen-ese.
12:10:50 With respect to the real community understanding what's
12:10:52 really at stake for them.
12:10:53 For example the brittle quarter mile from transit is
12:10:58 Does it include bus?
12:11:00 Layers include bus, eights 15 minute.
12:11:02 Does it include the 150 square miles we are adding if
12:11:05 the penny sales tax passes?
12:11:07 Were you calling it the 8-passenger van?
12:11:11 An exist door?
12:11:12 And put you onto the bus eight minutes away, wherever?
12:11:15 Are we being accounting for the realities if the penny
12:11:19 sales tax passes, how would we really fairly treat
12:11:22 folks not to double dip, to encourage transit oriented
12:11:25 development and make sure the system is not brittle
12:11:27 request respect to those incentives.
12:11:29 Thank you.
12:11:29 >>GWEN MILLER: Would anyone else like to speak?
12:11:33 Mrs. Saul-Sena.
12:11:33 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Thank you.
12:11:33 My biggest concern is the bicycle and pedestrian
12:11:38 components of this.
12:11:38 I think we all recognize now that transportation needs
12:11:42 to be holistic.
12:11:45 We are talking about complete streets and to assess
12:11:48 costs properly.
12:11:49 That needs to be part of it.
12:11:51 And I see that you are committing to include in the
12:11:53 But I don't think we should move ahead with this until
12:11:56 that's part of the entire dialogue.
12:11:58 >>GWEN MILLER: Mrs. Mulhern, do you still want to
12:12:04 >>MARY MULHERN: I'll try to be quit quick.
12:12:07 I want to say ditto from what I heard from the public.
12:12:10 And I would like to us look at this as we go forward.
12:12:12 Mr. Kass' recommendation that we need to look at this
12:12:16 as a way to reduce the bureaucracy and make the process
12:12:22 easier, especially inform individual homeowners, small
12:12:29 business owners, people who are not doing, you know, a
12:12:32 big development of regional impact.
12:12:34 So I think I would like to not see us -- and maybe he's
12:12:38 wrong about this, but I don't want us to increase the
12:12:41 type of projects that are going to have to go through
12:12:47 transportation review.
12:12:48 If they are not doing it now, I would question why we
12:12:51 need to do that.
12:12:53 And then I just want you to think about it.
12:12:56 Unless he's wrong about that.
12:12:57 >>RANDY GOERS: I can clarify that.
12:13:02 The majority of anybody doing a small development,
12:13:05 change of use, small, review is going to be are you a
12:13:09 de minimis?
12:13:10 Are you small enough that you are not going to impact a
12:13:13 Where the time is going to increase, is if the property
12:13:17 owner has to do a transportation study because he has
12:13:19 to go get that done.
12:13:20 That's going to increase that time.
12:13:22 And if it's a huge study, like a large study we talked
12:13:25 about the three or four streets or large intersections,
12:13:28 then it will increase staff's time so you do have to
12:13:31 review that.
12:13:32 By and large the kind of developments that Mr. Kass is
12:13:34 speaking about will not increase that time.
12:13:38 Unless he's speaking about a large development, change
12:13:41 of use, small development, mom and pop operation, it
12:13:44 will be ab de minimis model.
12:13:46 >> I would like you to work with him some more, and the
12:13:48 people that are concerned about that, because I don't
12:13:50 think he was just concerned about staff time, he was
12:13:52 concerned about the cost of the applicant, to the
12:13:58 The neighborhood.
12:14:00 The petitioner.
12:14:00 >> I understand you have the most liberal review time
12:14:05 that you had.
12:14:06 That is, just pay that fee and move forward.
12:14:09 Theres no review.
12:14:10 So what we try to do is allow the small developments to
12:14:14 move forward without review.
12:14:16 And your impact roads, and yes, you are going to
12:14:19 have -- yes, we understand.
12:14:23 >>MARY MULHERN: I would like you to convince them that
12:14:25 it's not going to become more onerous.
12:14:28 Then the second things I wanted to say -- and I was
12:14:31 thinking the same thing as Mr. Weaver as I looked at
12:14:33 the map -- and we are talking about the high-speed rail
12:14:36 later today -- is that part of the urban core where we
12:14:42 know we are going to have a station absolutely needs to
12:14:45 be included in this, and I think is the airport
12:14:50 >> Yes, the airport is included.
12:14:51 The high speed rail station will be included.
12:14:53 And future stations are designated, they will be
12:14:58 >> And this is a question for you.
12:14:59 I just glanced through here at the highlighted
12:15:01 questions, or recommendations, and 20-26, and this
12:15:07 relates to transportation oriented development.
12:15:13 This has to dovetail and be based on that whole concept
12:15:15 which I think it is.
12:15:16 I think that's where you are going, right?
12:15:18 Transit oriented development.
12:15:20 But number 2026 says remove the requirement of a
12:15:23 pedestrian connection for development within the
12:15:25 primary transit corridors.
12:15:28 I don't think you can think that way.
12:15:30 You cannot think that you don't need a pedestrian
12:15:33 connection because you are going to have transit.
12:15:35 Everybody has to walk to get to the transit.
12:15:40 So I'm a little concerned that those are not competing,
12:15:44 you know, bikes, pedestrians, cars, parking, buses, and
12:15:54 We need all of them.
12:15:55 >>RANDY GOERS: We agree.
12:15:58 We haven't removed it from the intent of the city
12:16:00 making sure it happens.
12:16:01 In terms of the ordinance, on this particular ordinance
12:16:04 that's being removed at this time, until we come back
12:16:06 to you with a defensible mechanism that works, and it
12:16:10 may be in this ordinance or maybe in a different
12:16:12 ordinance or different methodology --
12:16:14 >> That doesn't belong in there at all.
12:16:16 If you are going to have a train stop, a bus stop, a
12:16:19 bicycle path, a parking lot, you need to have
12:16:24 pedestrian --
12:16:24 >>RANDY GOERS: It will be provided as part of those.
12:16:26 What I'm saying at this point in time it's not part of
12:16:30 the recommendations in this ordinance.
12:16:31 There are many other ways to implement.
12:16:33 Now if you put it in the ordinance, the questions that
12:16:36 we had in the ordinance was it was difficult to
12:16:40 administrator, because every time we trade to put it
12:16:43 in, in terms of making it a requirement, we retain all
12:16:47 these legal issues that surface, in terms of whether or
12:16:49 not a property owner can really be required to put a
12:16:53 pedestrian connection on someone else's area.
12:16:57 And then whether or not the mechanisms work.
12:17:00 We also had concerns --
12:17:01 >>MARY MULHERN: What about putting it in their own --
12:17:05 >>RANDY GOERS: That is already happening.
12:17:07 Their own property has to put in the there.
12:17:09 >> This doesn't change that?
12:17:10 >> It doesn't change that.
12:17:11 It doesn't change making sure a pedestrian connection
12:17:14 exists in a primary transit corridor or around the
12:17:16 transit stations.
12:17:19 All it changes is this mechanism was not the most
12:17:20 appropriate way to make it work.
12:17:22 And what we wanted to do was come back with the most
12:17:24 appropriate mechanism.
12:17:31 Gene is ready to tell you the study is about ready to
12:17:34 >>CHAIRMAN: We are going to have to wrap it up because
12:17:37 our time is the at 12:00.
12:17:39 It's 12:17.
12:17:40 So council members,.
12:17:43 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Let's put this at our next council
12:17:45 meeting under staff report.
12:17:46 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
12:17:48 I'm not happy whenever that.
12:17:50 Removing that.
12:17:50 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: I move that we place this in our
12:17:54 next City Council meeting under staff reports.
12:17:55 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Second.
12:17:56 >>GWEN MILLER: I have a motion and second.
12:17:58 All in favor?
12:17:59 We need to close the workshops.
12:18:00 >> So moved.
12:18:01 >> Second.
12:18:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second to close.
12:18:04 All in favor?
12:18:07 New business.
12:18:07 Mr. Miranda.
12:18:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:18:08 I'm very happy to say that the honorable Mayor Pam
12:18:10 Iorio yesterday wrote a letter to the honorable Barack
12:18:15 Obama, president of the United States of America,
12:18:17 please grant Tampa status for the Florida authorized
12:18:21 entry exit for charter flight between the United States
12:18:24 and Cuba, Tampa Bay's home to the many American Cubans
12:18:28 and their asset to direct charter flights out of Tampa
12:18:31 International Airport will be of great convenience to
12:18:34 This is a community supportive of this decision.
12:18:39 Tampa International Airport is one of the best most
12:18:41 efficient airports in the country and would be able to
12:18:43 easily implement this important non-stop charter
12:18:46 As mayor of the City of Tampa, I respectfully request
12:18:50 this decision to be made in order to help Cuban
12:18:53 American families living in the Tampa Bay area and
12:18:55 central Florida.
12:19:02 You can go.
12:19:03 All of you did can go.
12:19:04 >>GWEN MILLER: We have information that we need to
12:19:06 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, there's been a request by
12:19:09 your CRA staff and the CRA will take it up when you
12:19:12 meet that they will be attending an FRA conference in
12:19:15 October when the CRA is scheduled to meet in October
12:19:19 They are requesting a change to their October meeting.
12:19:22 Council, I discussed it with council member Miller, and
12:19:30 she is suggesting that we can move it to the workshop
12:19:33 day, which is the 28th.
12:19:35 But council would then have to move their workshop to
12:19:37 11:00 and allow the CRA at 9:00 so I guess a motion
12:19:40 would be made to move the workshop items.
12:19:42 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: Why don't we swap the dates out?
12:19:46 >> To have the workshop on the CRA.
12:19:51 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: That would be my motion.
12:19:53 >>MARY MULHERN: Second.
12:19:54 >>GWEN MILLER: Motion and second.
12:19:55 All in favor of the motion say Aye.
12:19:57 Opposed, Nay.
12:20:01 Receive and file?
12:20:02 >> So moved.
12:20:03 >> Second.
12:20:03 >>GWEN MILLER: We stand adjourned till 5:30.
12:20:07 >>LINDA SAUL-SENA: We have a 2:00 special discussion
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