TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, October 14, 2010
9:00 a.m. Workshop Session
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>>THOMAS SCOTT: Tampa City Council will now come to
09:06:49 The chair will yield to Councilwoman Mary Mulhern.
09:06:53 >> It's my pleasure to welcome Nicole Parton from Palma
09:07:00 Ceia Presbyterian Church. She's an associate pastor
09:07:03 for Congregation Care.
09:07:04 Reverend Parton focuses on pastoral care and hospital
09:07:09 visitation, staff liaison for congressional care
09:07:11 including ministry, parish nurse program and hungry
09:07:16 Additionally, she serves as a resource for the Tampa's
09:07:19 free women's ministry, a Presbyterian women and policy
09:07:24 >>GWEN MILLER: Would you please stand and remain
09:07:28 standing for the pledge of allegiance?
09:07:30 >> Please join me for our invocation.
09:07:37 Almighty God, for the beauty of the gift of this day
09:07:39 and for this small corner of the world that's been
09:07:43 entrusted to our care we give you thanks.
09:07:45 As the council is about to begin their business this
09:07:47 morning, we stop and pray for all those who hold office
09:07:50 in the government of this city, that they may do their
09:07:54 work in a spirit of wisdom, kindness and justice.
09:07:57 Help them use their authority to serve faithfully and
09:08:00 to promote the general welfare.
09:08:03 Help us all to be good citizens of this city and
09:08:05 nation, to respect neighbors whose views are different
09:08:10 from ours that we may work out differences that serve
09:08:14 the common good.
09:08:15 Bless this city with honest industry, sound learning,
09:08:18 and an honorable way of life.
09:08:20 Save us from violence, discord and confusion, from
09:08:24 pride and arrogance, and from every evil way.
09:08:28 In your holy name we pray.
09:08:30 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:08:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Roll call.
09:08:51 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Here.
09:08:55 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Present.
09:08:55 >>GWEN MILLER: Here.
09:08:56 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:08:58 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
09:08:59 >>CURTIS STOKES: Here.
09:09:00 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Here.
09:09:02 At this time, Councilwoman Mulhern will make a
09:09:05 presentation to our former colleague, former councilman
09:09:13 John Dingfelder.
09:09:21 >>MARY MULHERN: Good morning, everyone.
09:09:23 I'm honored to present this commendation to our
09:09:27 colleague, John Dingfelder.
09:09:30 During his term on Tampa City Council, John was
09:09:32 involved with economic development, transportation,
09:09:36 neighborhoods and sustainability.
09:09:37 He represented council on numerous boards and
09:09:40 committees including the metropolitan planning
09:09:43 organization, Hillsborough regional transit authority,
09:09:46 Hillsborough County public transportation commission,
09:09:49 arts council and Hillsborough River and the local
09:09:52 planning board.
09:09:53 As a council member John's public service initiative
09:09:55 included the founding of the South Tampa neighborhood
09:09:58 empowerment organization -- that's scary -- serving on
09:10:01 the Bayshore task force, contributing to the
09:10:04 MacDill joint land use study, and volunteering for
09:10:07 habitat for humanity.
09:10:08 John also initiated the development of the city's
09:10:11 sustainability ordinance providing guidelines and
09:10:14 incentive for green buildings within the City of Tampa.
09:10:17 For his term of service Tampa City Council commends
09:10:22 John Dingfelder.
09:10:23 Thank you, John.
09:10:25 And I especially want to highlight the green building
09:10:27 ordinance that John when he got elected to his second
09:10:31 term just jumped right in there and worked on that, and
09:10:37 pushed it through pretty fast for this council.
09:10:40 So I really appreciate that.
09:10:43 Thank you so much for your service.
09:10:46 And good luck in your next endeavor.
09:10:49 >> Thank you, Mary, and council.
09:10:54 It does feel a little funny to be on this side of the
09:10:58 But it's so nice of you to have me back to council in
09:11:08 this way.
09:11:09 Our eight years of serving together were great.
09:11:10 They were really.
09:11:12 -- really were.
09:11:13 Especially the first four years with Gwen -- and I
09:11:18 don't know if anybody else is here from the first four
09:11:22 But we had some money back then, didn't we, Gwen?
09:11:25 And we made a lot of improvements.
09:11:28 And we worked real hard in rebuilding the
09:11:31 infrastructure of the city.
09:11:32 And the last four years have been a little tougher.
09:11:35 But they have been tougher for the whole country so why
09:11:37 shouldn't it be the same thing for the city?
09:11:39 And we have all tightened our belt and did what we had
09:11:42 to do.
09:11:42 And I do actually flip on channel 15 from home now and
09:11:46 watch you guys a little bit, not a lot, a little bit.
09:11:51 And I'm proud of the work that you are continuing to
09:11:55 Mary mentioned the neighborhood organizations, and of
09:11:58 course there's a special place in my heart for the
09:12:02 I was pleased to see our neighborhood sounder and
09:12:09 I don't know if Margaret is here.
09:12:14 She probably had another issue on the agenda.
09:12:16 Marty, it's been wonderful to work with you.
09:12:17 I just want to give a shout-out to the mayor and all of
09:12:21 her staff who we all work so closely with, and we are
09:12:26 nothing without them, and I was proud to work hand in
09:12:30 hand with them, not always agreeing on every issue, but
09:12:35 ultimately for the same end and the public good.
09:12:39 But anyway, Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for having
09:12:45 Mary, thanks for initiating this.
09:12:47 And I will always treasure this.
09:12:50 Hopefully we'll continue to work together very soon in
09:12:53 another capacity.
09:12:54 Thank you.
09:12:56 [ Applause ]
09:13:01 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, John.
09:13:03 Thanks for being here today.
09:13:04 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Chairman, a point of special
09:13:08 I would like the to give accolades to the Chilean
09:13:11 government for what they have done in the rescue of
09:13:14 those 33 miners.
09:13:16 And there's companies in -- it was really a concerted
09:13:22 effort by a lot of people.
09:13:23 It was amazing that they accomplished it.
09:13:26 So give them thanks for doing what they did for their
09:13:31 Thank you.
09:13:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:13:32 I have another commendation.
09:13:36 I ask Carol Ferguson to come forward.
09:13:39 This is being given in recognition of the pancreatic
09:13:42 cancer action network.
09:13:46 Let me just say, council, pancreatic awareness month is
09:14:08 the month of November and I certainly want to highlight
09:14:12 My brother passed away about two years ago as a result
09:14:16 of pancreatic cancer.
09:14:18 And it is one of those painful situations, and so the
09:14:25 more that we can educate people and show support it is
09:14:31 much more appreciative and very helpful.
09:14:35 And, of course, he was only 54 years old at that time.
09:14:41 So it is my pleasure today on behalf of Tampa City
09:14:45 Council today to present this commendation for the work
09:14:50 that you do, not only just for this month but for
09:14:56 November for pancreatic month, but you all do this all
09:14:59 year long.
09:15:00 So we take one month of the year and we highlight it.
09:15:03 But this is something that they do around the clock,
09:15:08 all year, every year, so we want to give you special
09:15:13 recognition and thank you for what you do.
09:15:15 Tampa City Council -- the plans will be most
09:15:22 As we the members of Tampa City Council continue to
09:15:25 encourage and assist and support organizations that
09:15:29 serve the pancreatic cancer community in Tampa and
09:15:33 We invite all the citizens to observe the month of
09:15:36 November as pancreatic cancer awareness month, and
09:15:40 honor those patients who are currently battling
09:15:43 pancreatic cancer as well as those who lost their lives
09:15:47 to the disease.
09:15:48 Tampa City Council hereby designates the months of
09:15:50 November 2010 as pancreatic awareness month and wish
09:15:55 the pancreatic action network much success in
09:15:58 increasing awareness and research and early detection
09:16:02 for treatment as a cure to pancreatic cancer.
09:16:05 So this is being presented to you, signed by all seven
09:16:09 members of the board.
09:16:13 And again as I say, we wish you much, much success as
09:16:17 we move forward to educate the community and educate
09:16:19 our citizens, and note that our prayers and support are
09:16:24 you with you.
09:16:28 [ Applause ]
09:16:32 >>> I lost my husband to pancreatic cancer eleven years
09:16:35 ago, and at that time there were no really effective
09:16:39 diagnostic tools, and there were no effective
09:16:44 treatments eat.
09:16:45 And all these years later, the situation is still
09:16:48 pretty much the same.
09:16:49 It's one of the deadliest cancers.
09:16:52 It's the only cancer with a single digit survival rate,
09:16:57 Most patients, 75% them die within six months.
09:17:01 Only 5%, 6% now, last past five years.
09:17:07 So I appreciate this commendation and the recognition
09:17:13 of November as pancreatic cancer awareness month
09:17:16 because every step we take to create awareness will
09:17:19 help us raise the funds that will eventually help us
09:17:23 find a cure.
09:17:24 So, council, thank you very much.
09:17:25 I appreciate this.
09:17:28 [ Applause ]
09:17:54 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I would like to say thank you, Carol,
09:17:58 for this work that you are doing.
09:18:00 And I would like to also acknowledge, I know Carol
09:18:03 Ferguson from back at USF.
09:18:08 She was a little sister at my husband's fraternity back
09:18:13 then, so we know each other way back.
09:18:16 I'm so proud.
09:18:17 Thank you very much for your work.
09:18:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
09:18:24 Our first workshop, council, we have a full day of
09:18:27 workshops today.
09:18:28 And hopefully we can get through this morning but we
09:18:31 have quite a number of workshops this morning and a
09:18:36 long agenda tonight.
09:18:37 So as much as possible let's try to get through it.
09:18:42 We start first with discussion regarding the news rack
09:18:47 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
09:18:50 I'm here this morning to give you a brief update on
09:18:53 where we are with the news rack ordinance.
09:18:55 As City Council may recall several months ago, you
09:18:57 amended your news rack ordinance to, number one, get an
09:19:03 enforceable permitting in place, and, number two, to
09:19:06 allow for the placement of modular news racks which
09:19:09 previously you did not allow.
09:19:10 The purpose of this amendment was to try to get some
09:19:14 voluntary compliance and cooperation with the
09:19:16 publishers to try to reduce some of the visual clutter.
09:19:20 At the time that you passed that amendment, City
09:19:22 Council directed to meet with T.H.A.N. as well as the
09:19:26 publishers to discuss a list of additional changes that
09:19:29 T.H.A.N. had requested.
09:19:30 We did have a meeting about a month ago.
09:19:33 At that time, we had greater turnout among some of the
09:19:37 smaller publishers.
09:19:38 At least one of the smaller publishers did opine, and
09:19:44 you may have been contacted, but his feeling was what
09:19:48 we had already passed was already too onerous.
09:19:51 I'm not sure that was the general consensus.
09:19:53 However, what did come out of that meeting was a
09:19:55 consensus that we were going to give the existing
09:19:58 regulations some additional time to work to see whether
09:20:00 or not we were actually getting some of the voluntary
09:20:04 compliance we had hoped for.
09:20:05 To that end, with the publishers that were present
09:20:08 including representative of the Tampa Bay publishers
09:20:11 group which represent a number of the publishers in
09:20:13 town, that we have an application that they will come
09:20:15 in for permit for their existing news rack by October
09:20:20 As you will recall, we are requiring that they get
09:20:25 They have to come in with a list of all of their
09:20:28 locations, meet the insurance requirements, as well as
09:20:32 fill out an affidavit, with -- that the location of
09:20:36 those meet our existing ordinance.
09:20:38 We have had contact from several publishers that are in
09:20:41 the works of doing that.
09:20:43 They are also in the process of adding labels with
09:20:45 contact information.
09:20:47 And the only change that came out of that meeting that
09:20:51 we will be recommending to you is an amendment to the
09:20:54 ordinance to require that any news rack that does not
09:20:57 have contact information, so if there's a problem we
09:20:59 have somebody to contact, that will be abandoned.
09:21:05 So if City Council agrees with that and makes a motion
09:21:07 then we will be coming back with that change.
09:21:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Council?
09:21:18 You need a motion to that effect?
09:21:20 >>REBECCA KERT: If I can get a motion to that effect
09:21:23 and then we will be able to bring back the change.
09:21:25 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Before you take action, just to hear
09:21:29 from the public on that, as a result of that.
09:21:31 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone from the public wish to address
09:21:34 council may come forward.
09:21:40 >>MARGARET VIZZI: 213 South Sherill.
09:21:42 Don't tell John I came for other things.
09:21:45 But last night we did discuss that this was coming
09:21:51 back, then along the way we were meeting about a month
09:21:55 ago, and we agreed with giving them this additional
09:21:59 time to come into compliance, and also about the city
09:22:02 being able to take action after that point on these
09:22:09 abandoned boxes because there are especially in the
09:22:12 neighborhoods a lot of these abandoned boxes.
09:22:15 It is the single box, that with the new regulation is
09:22:18 supposed to have a contact person on there if that does
09:22:25 not occur, then we agree that the city should have the
09:22:29 ability to remove them.
09:22:32 As far as working with all of the different publishers,
09:22:38 they seem to be willing -- in fact, one of the men said
09:22:42 that he publishes a lot of those smaller publications
09:22:49 and wasn't aware, so at least they were at that meeting
09:22:52 and seemed by then everyone had been contacted.
09:22:54 So I would encourage you to move forward with this.
09:22:58 T.H.A.N., however, felt that if they don't comply with
09:23:03 the regulations, then further actions that T.H.A.N. had
09:23:10 recommended be taken.
09:23:12 Thank you.
09:23:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, ma'am.
09:23:14 >> Spencer Kass, 1001 North Howard Avenue.
09:23:22 I agree with everything that Margaret said. There was
09:23:24 in a point in us looking at additional regulations if.
09:23:28 I have in a problems giving people time to comply.
09:23:30 What we said is you won't hear any neighborhood
09:23:33 complaints until the end of October.
09:23:35 Come November 1st we would expect enforcement from
09:23:37 the city.
09:23:38 So what we are asking for is toward the end of November
09:23:40 council schedule another opportunity to come back on
09:23:45 If at that point they are complying and they are doing
09:23:48 what's been asked, we'll send in a letter and say we
09:23:51 have no complaints.
09:23:53 If they are not, then I think we need to take up A
09:23:56 through Y.
09:23:57 We have no problem with first reading if you want today
09:24:01 as Mr. Wheeler has it.
09:24:02 We appreciate your suggestion.
09:24:03 It seems to be something that the industry and the
09:24:06 neighborhoods agree.
09:24:07 Thank you.
09:24:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else from the public?
09:24:14 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I move the resolution.
09:24:16 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Second.
09:24:17 >>REBECCA KERT: We actually don't have an ordinance
09:24:20 before you but if you could direct us to come back with
09:24:22 that amendment.
09:24:24 >> I move the amendment.
09:24:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: You will come back when?
09:24:29 >>REBECCA KERT: At council's pleasure.
09:24:30 We just need enough time to get it through doc agenda.
09:24:33 30 days.
09:24:34 >>GWEN MILLER: Two weeks.
09:24:35 >>REBECCA KERT: That's fine.
09:24:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Two weeks.
09:24:38 So the motion is to come back within two weeks with an
09:24:47 >> Second.
09:24:49 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor?
09:24:54 Thank you very much.
09:24:56 Move now to item 4.
09:25:01 Talk about the chapter 27 text amendment.
09:25:04 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
09:25:07 Yesterday, I sent through the part one of the
09:25:12 We did schedule a workshop with City Council December
09:25:17 So today I will not be asking you to take any action as
09:25:20 far as transmitting to the Planning Commission or
09:25:22 anything further.
09:25:25 What I hope you can do is I will briefly go through
09:25:27 these. If there's any questions from the public or
09:25:30 from you I can certainly answer them up front.
09:25:32 Take the next five to six weeks until December, read
09:25:35 through them.
09:25:36 I'm more than willing to make myself available
09:25:38 individually, if you have questions as well, to work
09:25:40 through any of these amendments.
09:25:42 Most of the amendments that you have before you in part
09:25:44 one are clean-up items, corrections, update to already
09:25:49 existing provisions.
09:25:50 There are a couple that have been workshopped a few
09:25:55 times including the alcoholic beverage regulation.
09:25:58 The IG and IH industrial district standards which was
09:26:02 directed by City Council and have been worked through
09:26:05 with Drew Park in particular.
09:26:09 But, anyway, I will go through them briefly.
09:26:11 I just wanted to let you know I am not going to let
09:26:15 have any action be taken, just to answer any questions
09:26:17 that come up.
09:26:20 I'm assuming that you have the document in front of
09:26:22 If not, I can give you a copy.
09:26:23 The industrial districts, I did already brief you
09:26:27 several weeks ago when I reported back to you on what
09:26:29 those regulations were, how they were to be proposed.
09:26:33 It shows you in the IG and the IH zoning
09:26:36 classification, the material recovery facilities and
09:26:39 the recycling nonhazardous material.
09:26:43 It's redefining, better defining those particular use
09:26:45 categories, more the in line with how they are handled
09:26:50 nationally, clarifying what some of the performance
09:26:53 standards, hours of operation and days of operation,
09:26:57 distances from residential, other relationships for
09:27:03 buffering and screening, and then obviously if there
09:27:08 are any variances or exceptions to that, they would go
09:27:11 through the process that they would go through.
09:27:17 Page 5.
09:27:18 There is a new use that's being added to be considered
09:27:22 as a retail bakery.
09:27:23 So one that comes to mind when we talk about it is la
09:27:29 Segunda in Ybor City, we have that and others that are
09:27:35 considered nonconform, they sit on a commercial general
09:27:40 or lesser category.
09:27:41 Baking goods is actually a manufacturing light use.
09:27:45 It needs to be in a commercial intensive or industrial
09:27:49 Knowing that these types of bakeries serve these
09:27:53 neighborhoods are in, there's a lot of walk-up
09:27:56 customers and a lot of daily traffic from the area.
09:27:59 We did consider putting a retail bakery in, limiting
09:28:02 the square footage to 15,000 square feet, no more than
09:28:05 three delivery trucks can be stored overnight.
09:28:07 Those trucks can be no longer than 26 feet, which would
09:28:11 cover the typical box delivery truck.
09:28:14 Specifically for Ybor City, they do have to follow the
09:28:17 design standards for the Ybor City district.
09:28:22 Essentially the same standards in the rest of the
09:28:24 districts as well.
09:28:25 And a retail bakery is a place where products such as
09:28:31 breads, cakes and pastries are predominantly baked and
09:28:34 may be sold retail on premises and may be sold
09:28:36 The wholesale is a secondary component.
09:28:40 Number 3.
09:28:41 Dog friendly restaurant.
09:28:42 I'm striking the sunsetting provisions for that.
09:28:44 The state had a sunset provision which they struck in
09:28:47 the last cycle.
09:28:48 So we took ours out.
09:28:52 And that is for the permit to allow essentially doggie
09:28:57 Number four.
09:28:59 Microbrewery as a use.
09:29:01 We do allow it in other industrial-type districts
09:29:03 throughout the city.
09:29:04 This is more of a clean-up item for the industrial
09:29:07 districts and commercial district allowing microbrewery
09:29:12 which is a very limited production for malt liquors and
09:29:20 beer as a multi-use in the city.
09:29:23 Number 5.
09:29:24 Changing to the YC district, clearly a clean-up item.
09:29:28 Cultural facility is listed twice as opposed to just
09:29:31 once as it should be.
09:29:32 So it's striking the second, the repetition.
09:29:36 Number 6 on page 7 is literally changing a name.
09:29:42 DPW and department of public works no longer handles
09:29:45 the transportation standards or making those calls in
09:29:48 rezoning cases and variances and other such things and
09:29:52 parking demands.
09:29:54 It is the transportation division.
09:29:55 And the transportation technical manual that makes
09:29:57 those calls.
09:29:58 We cleaned up that language.
09:30:03 Number 7 at the bottom of page 8.
09:30:06 This is adding literally three letters, E, H and K.
09:30:11 Throughout the 90s this particular article of the
09:30:14 code for off-street parking was revised several times
09:30:17 through City Council, and through the many revisions
09:30:21 that occurred, the linkages between them, the other
09:30:24 sections it applies to, were broken, so this is
09:30:28 correcting those references.
09:30:32 Page 9, number 8 at the top, if you recall, council, if
09:30:39 you recall about five months ago, you adopted a new
09:30:43 process for the formal decision process and written
09:30:48 To clarify a formal decision process is the only
09:30:51 process you can go through for determination on
09:30:54 This is actually the nonconforming -- beginning of the
09:30:57 nonconforming section of our code and it's clarifying
09:30:59 that you go through that process.
09:31:00 So it's linking it back.
09:31:03 Number 9 at the bottom of page 9 is the introduction of
09:31:06 the RS 40 zoning category.
09:31:08 It is Euclidean district, like an RS 50 or 60 or 75.
09:31:14 It's shown as being allowed in the east and West Tampa
09:31:20 overlay boundaries.
09:31:21 The minimum standards are a 20-foot front setback,
09:31:24 5-foot side and 40-foot minimum width and 4,356 square
09:31:29 feet in lot area.
09:31:31 And the east and West Tampa overlay category, they
09:31:34 already allow smaller lots to be developed if they were
09:31:37 platted as of a certain date.
09:31:40 But from that date which is typically 2000 and 2001 and
09:31:45 ELAPPs after that have to come through a PD typically
09:31:48 to allow those lots to come through with basic
09:31:50 Euclidean standards, a simple acquisition of council to
09:31:53 show whether or not they are compatible so it's trying
09:31:55 to make the process a little more clear for council and
09:31:59 for the public.
09:32:02 Number 10 at the bottom of page 11, this is also a
09:32:05 clean-up item, lighting and security of Ybor City
09:32:09 We do have a new code, need to go through the adoption
09:32:14 Chapter 6 will be adopting a business operating permit
09:32:17 for parking lots in Ybor City.
09:32:20 Within that chapter will contain the security
09:32:23 requirements, the lighting standards will remain in
09:32:25 chapter 27, and you will see the table that's being
09:32:28 adopted which is similar to the table in West Tampa and
09:32:31 Kennedy Boulevard and Westshore overlay.
09:32:34 It's a basic elimination engineering standards.
09:32:38 For parking lots and open parking.
09:32:41 Number 11 on page 12 is a pass due mandated by state
09:32:48 law as well as our comprehensive plan.
09:32:50 All rezonings that come through the coastal planning
09:32:53 area which is the high hazard planning area if you are
09:32:56 increasing density, you must pay a certain fee to cover
09:33:00 the potential evacuees into the emergency shelter fund
09:33:04 through the county and that's what this calculation
09:33:10 It is essentially $268 per person, which that ratio for
09:33:15 the City of Tampa is 20% of the potential evacuees.
09:33:19 Number 12 on the bottom of page 12 is community
09:33:22 gardens, which we can come back to.
09:33:25 I know that's actually a separate item.
09:33:27 So if you skip forward to number 13 on page 15, that is
09:33:32 the last piece.
09:33:33 And those are the alcoholic beverage changes which we
09:33:37 held a couple public information workshops on.
09:33:39 I know we have held a couple workshops with City
09:33:42 Council on.
09:33:46 This is basically in its final format showing that
09:33:48 defining those five particular categories of alcoholic
09:33:52 beverages that are widely accepted as uses that would
09:33:57 be predominantly anywhere that don't cause essentially
09:34:00 any of those potential adverse effects, hotels, 100
09:34:04 plus rooms, bowling alleys, package sales for grocery
09:34:07 stores or convenience stores, and special restaurants.
09:34:12 Those that are able to get the special restaurant
09:34:15 license from the state.
09:34:16 That way, we have a double enforcement to the state and
09:34:19 to the city.
09:34:21 You will also note that bars, lounges and night clubs
09:34:23 are considered a special use 2, so they wouldn't be
09:34:28 coming forward to you for an alcoholic beverage special
09:34:31 Just to do a bar, lounge, nightclub, they are coming to
09:34:34 you to do a special use through a public hearing
09:34:37 We are keeping the 1,000-foot radius on that and no
09:34:40 outdoor amplified music which would be a waiver
09:34:43 consideration if they wanted those.
09:34:45 And then at the bottom of page 17, the revised
09:34:48 definitions for bar or lounge, incidental, nightclub,
09:34:52 and restaurant.
09:34:53 And I want to key in on the definition of restaurant.
09:34:56 If you read the previous version, it was very limited
09:34:58 in its description of how, why and when food was
09:35:06 served, what we clarified in the new definition of
09:35:08 restaurant, that if you are a restaurant that food that
09:35:10 is for sale or to be prepared or served does have to be
09:35:15 ready, continuously ready to be prepared, served and
09:35:19 sold during all business operational hours of that
09:35:21 restaurant use.
09:35:23 So hopefully that will help address the issue of the
09:35:26 The Kip kitchen closing at 10:00 and becoming a bar
09:35:29 until 3:00.
09:35:30 It will be clear hopefully to find when TPD goes in or
09:35:33 code enforcement goes in or some enforcement officer
09:35:36 goes in, if the kitchen is closed and they are declared
09:35:39 a restaurant use, it's an easy violation to see.
09:35:43 Easier to document to build a case to bring forward.
09:35:46 So we can call out the bad actors much better up front.
09:35:51 So we started with the definition.
09:35:53 We have better criteria.
09:35:55 And that's what we hope to move forward with.
09:35:57 I can go back to community gardens really briefly.
09:36:00 I did meet with Ms. Mulhern on the regulations as well.
09:36:06 And just so you know, Ms. Mulhern, on page 13, I did
09:36:10 highlight in gray for noise limitations, I paired down
09:36:14 the sentences basically and said what was encouraged,
09:36:17 hand tools and domestic gardening tools are encouraged,
09:36:20 but then any other machinery or noise emitting
09:36:22 equipment is subject to chapter 14 which contains our
09:36:25 noise regulations.
09:36:27 And miscellaneous responsibilities, those are the
09:36:31 responsibilities of the property owner and any lessee
09:36:33 of the property including the community garden group or
09:36:37 organization, and that those standards are contained
09:36:39 within chapter 19 which is our property maintenance
09:36:41 So it's a reference to our already existing regulation.
09:36:45 I did clarify one of the questions about events.
09:36:48 Number 6.
09:36:49 It is events with sales.
09:36:51 I know there was a question about what that really
09:36:54 The consideration of this type of use in a residential
09:36:57 category typically retail and any other type of sale is
09:37:01 not permitted.
09:37:02 What this does potentially allow and limit to four
09:37:05 times a year is an event that you would actually sell
09:37:10 the crop, some type of harvest sale, or fund-raiser
09:37:14 From a residential property.
09:37:17 I did also, in number 9 on page 14, we did take out the
09:37:22 ball playing and the pets actually.
09:37:31 I just got the word that the pets are okay to take out
09:37:34 as well, from consultation with the legal department.
09:37:36 So number 9, you can strike that on your particular
09:37:44 I'm available for any questions.
09:37:45 I will be waiting to hear from the public as well on
09:37:47 the items.
09:37:47 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Stokes.
09:37:52 >>CURTIS STOKES: There was a question regarding number
09:37:54 9, 27-545.
09:37:56 It talks about the crops and food and community
09:38:04 What would define food?
09:38:05 What I am concerned blood pressure is the growing of
09:38:07 potentially illegal substances, particularly marijuana.
09:38:13 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Well, the DEA would probably do
09:38:18 Non-food would be typically, in my view, it would be
09:38:21 flowering plants, things that you don't actually eat.
09:38:23 If someone were to grow roses, other things that are
09:38:29 typically grown in a garden, something you wouldn't
09:38:33 typically consume.
09:38:40 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Ms. Coil, on here it says you will
09:38:42 appear and provide a flow chart regarding the process
09:38:46 relating to alcoholic beverages.
09:38:48 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Yes, there is that as well.
09:38:50 That particular document I am going to need to e-mail
09:38:54 you that document afterwards, I want to go back and
09:38:57 e-mail it to you.
09:38:58 I want to clean it up a little bit because it was kind
09:39:01 of a general outline.
09:39:02 But just to describe the process to you, when there
09:39:04 is --
09:39:09 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Way wanted, maybe more specific here,
09:39:13 what you are going to present, what is in place now for
09:39:17 enforcement, or what is -- might be --
09:39:20 >> No, this is what we do currently.
09:39:22 >> What we do currently?
09:39:24 >> Yes.
09:39:25 It's the enforcement that you don't necessarily see
09:39:27 because these are cases we don't -- that never make to
09:39:30 the City Council because we get them fixed before they
09:39:32 ever have to be brought to you.
09:39:34 And just to clarify that, in order for a case to be
09:39:38 brought to you, we have to build a case.
09:39:42 I would then put it on the -- give it to the city clerk
09:39:44 to set a public hearing.
09:39:46 Everyone would be on notice, and that property owner
09:39:48 would have to come in, and the answer to those
09:39:50 allegations, and you and City Council would be hearing
09:39:53 that evidence and determining whether or not it would
09:39:58 potentially revoke that permit.
09:40:00 Those particular types of cases haven't been brought
09:40:02 forward under the new special use permit process
09:40:05 because we have a fairly good amount of success dealing
09:40:09 with them internally with the coordination of TPD, the
09:40:16 state licensing folks, code enforcement and business
09:40:20 When there is a complaint, or there is a bad actor out
09:40:23 there, and there's one in particular that I'm thinking
09:40:25 of that was in West Tampa, there was one in Ybor City,
09:40:28 and there are a couple in the South Howard area that we
09:40:31 are looking into now, there's actually one in Tampa
09:40:33 Heights that we are looking at now.
09:40:35 There is generally a complaint that is brought in,
09:40:38 because they are causing some type of problem, or it's
09:40:41 an observation of one of those agencies, one of those
09:40:44 enforcement officers where they see something that's a
09:40:46 little questionable, and they contact us to find out
09:40:49 what those conditions are, and then we'll start to mail
09:40:52 nail down what those items are that could be
09:40:55 potentially enforced.
09:40:58 There's actually one in the Channel District as well.
09:41:00 There could be any number of potential violations.
09:41:03 The thing is, any of those violations of alcohol rules,
09:41:08 any violation to noise, selling under 21, convictions
09:41:12 or felonies, there's a long list of things including
09:41:15 any violations or conditions that you set on the
09:41:18 permits, any one of those things could cause us to ramp
09:41:21 up our efforts and start to investigate and bring a
09:41:26 So what happens is, by way of example, TPD will
09:41:29 typically go out, because they are 24 hours a day, they
09:41:33 can go out late at night and they will coordinate some
09:41:36 type of investigation or on-site inspection of the site
09:41:39 depend being on what the violations could be.
09:41:44 They will document those in a report to me.
09:41:46 They will typically take pictures or video so that I
09:41:49 can view it and see whether or not I can see that
09:41:50 violation and concur with their mind findings.
09:41:55 Those inspections may occur several times for us to be
09:41:58 able to build that evidence.
09:42:00 A letter, a formal letter is issued by TPD, hand
09:42:03 delivered to that license holder and to the property
09:42:08 I follow it generally with a letter as well, letting
09:42:11 them know.
09:42:13 They may be in violation.
09:42:14 And here is what could happen.
09:42:17 That often causes them to come in and say, okay, wait a
09:42:20 minute, what do I need to do to come into compliance?
09:42:23 Most of that if not all of them so far that we had this
09:42:27 coordinate effort, they have come into compliance or
09:42:30 they have just gone away.
09:42:31 They have left the establishment completely.
09:42:34 It also helps when we have rules that match up with the
09:42:37 state, because they can go in and enforce their
09:42:42 licenses, to a greater degree in most cases than we can
09:42:46 because they can put them on a no sale lists list or do
09:42:49 their own suspension activities and if they don't have
09:42:52 an active license they can't sell.
09:42:54 We can come forward because you don't have an active
09:42:56 license you shouldn't be selling.
09:42:58 If you are acting outside of the permit that we have
09:43:00 given you can't sell.
09:43:01 So I think there's probably a half dozen or so that we
09:43:04 have actually stopped having that bad activity because
09:43:07 of this effort.
09:43:08 But it is a coordination between approximately five or
09:43:10 six different agencies.
09:43:12 That's what I am going to give you.
09:43:14 It's about a one-page protocol when the letters go out,
09:43:17 what they need to say.
09:43:18 It's not terribly detailed because every case is
09:43:21 different for each violation.
09:43:22 But it documents when I get involved, what I would call
09:43:28 business tax to do an inspection.
09:43:30 There are cases sometimes where people have expanded
09:43:34 what their permit shows.
09:43:36 We might call in construction services to do an
09:43:38 inspection of construction without permits.
09:43:40 There's a lot of different actors as well.
09:43:44 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I thank you for that.
09:43:45 And I thank zoning and legal and the Tampa Police
09:43:50 Department, the fire marshal.
09:43:54 As you know, I have been working very diligently on
09:43:57 this exact issue for quite some time, that I discovered
09:44:06 that we have many, many conditions on these permits
09:44:12 under all different -- I'm looking forward to the
09:44:20 baseline, to see if that is something that will work
09:44:23 for us.
09:44:26 Also, this information that was brought to us on the
09:44:29 different places -- and I particularly asked for South
09:44:32 Howard Avenue because it is in my district, and as you
09:44:38 know, I was there Friday evening after the fireman's
09:44:42 award dinner, there from 11 a.m. to 2:00 in the morning
09:44:46 with Sergeant Teweres, and I walked the beat with the
09:44:56 staff there, the squad.
09:44:59 It was an eye opener as far as what the program that
09:45:06 the Tampa Police Department has implemented since May,
09:45:08 along with the fire marshal.
09:45:12 That was October 5th.
09:45:14 I had a community meeting that was also about South
09:45:18 Howard and alcoholic beverages.
09:45:22 On that, we found out -- well, I am going to have to do
09:45:26 a shoutout from that community meeting.
09:45:29 Major Ruggerio was there and captain Kakowski, and
09:45:39 asked why don't we have more bicycles for the police
09:45:42 And of course budget and constraints of that sort.
09:45:45 So from that, there were 23 businesses represented at
09:45:53 this meeting, along with 35 residents from different
09:45:58 neighborhood associations.
09:46:01 And these businesses got together and are donating
09:46:05 $3,000 for two bicycles that are 1,500 each for
09:46:11 district 1.
09:46:12 So that came from that meeting.
09:46:15 So there is a concerted effort from both business and
09:46:21 the neighborhood to work on this.
09:46:26 The one thing that I am working on diligently is
09:46:35 compliance resource for this district.
09:46:44 And I will continue to work on that, and hopefully we
09:46:47 can come to some kind of agreement here on City
09:46:52 When I looked at these numbers in here on Tampa Police
09:47:00 Department, the only two places that I found that had
09:47:03 trafficking in here, there's only two places and both
09:47:08 of them close before 11 p.m.
09:47:12 It's compliance.
09:47:13 And that is where we have to -- and I very much
09:47:20 appreciate what you are doing and what you are trying
09:47:24 to get accomplished with that.
09:47:27 So thank you.
09:47:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anyone else?
09:47:31 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: I'm looking at one of the charts
09:47:41 that I have here in my packet.
09:47:43 And I think some of them are wrong where it says no
09:47:47 hours of restriction on certain ones, I know the line.
09:47:53 They recently went till 2:00 but it's not on this
09:47:57 Has that not been updated?
09:48:00 >>> That chart was created several weeks ago.
09:48:02 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: It's dated October 14th.
09:48:05 I don't know when it was created.
09:48:07 >>> Well, today is October 14th.
09:48:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: 9:30 was the date.
09:48:14 >>CATHERINE COYLE: But I think you had -- I think the
09:48:16 second reading was after that.
09:48:18 Yes, second reading was actually after the creation of
09:48:21 So we would have to go back and update it.
09:48:23 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Okay.
09:48:25 I'm looking at another one here, the first one,
09:48:28 Mangroves, they have no hours of restrictions?
09:48:31 Or are there hours of restriction on that?
09:48:34 >> That is actually a current case that's coming before
09:48:36 So I would ask you not to speak about that.
09:48:39 Thank you.
09:48:46 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Questions by council?
09:48:48 Then we'll take public comment at this time.
09:48:49 Anyone from the public?
09:48:52 Please come forward anyone from the public, please.
09:49:00 >>MARGARET VIZZI: 213 south Sherill.
09:49:02 Again, these were brought to T.H.A.N. yesterday
09:49:06 Some of them were known about for a while but still
09:49:08 didn't have any completed until last night.
09:49:12 So T.H.A.N. has not taken a position on these.
09:49:16 These were only things that I am going to mention,
09:49:22 because, as you know, we only meet once a month.
09:49:26 In November we had the mayors, so we won't be having
09:49:29 any official business.
09:49:31 And in December -- that all happens at our meeting
09:49:38 through January that we can take official positions.
09:49:41 So what I'm saying, the only comments that were brought
09:49:44 up yesterday, some still ongoing and some new ones.
09:49:50 First of all, there was concern about it being proposed
09:49:56 CM because a bakery with a thousand square feet could
09:50:03 be a little onerous in some places where CM exists.
09:50:09 It's not a position, it was a concern expressed.
09:50:18 The other main issues, of course, are the alcoholic
09:50:20 beverages which you just had a big discussion about.
09:50:24 There's still great concerns about all of the alcoholic
09:50:28 beverage permits coming before you.
09:50:31 In other words, some people feel that all that should
09:50:34 come before you, there's some regulations in here that,
09:50:38 for example, it's still with an "R."
09:50:43 I think there's less opposition to granting these with
09:50:46 an "R" that would still have to be a thousand feet from
09:50:50 residential, no outdoor music, and some of the other
09:50:55 things that are very specific.
09:50:58 But, however, some feel that they would like to see
09:51:03 alcoholic beverages still not come before you.
09:51:06 As far as the community gardens, it's the same thing.
09:51:10 We do understand that there are some neighborhoods that
09:51:13 think these are fine.
09:51:15 Others that say absolutely not.
09:51:19 And so we would still feel that that should be an S-2
09:51:25 with a public hearing and notice.
09:51:28 So people, some of the neighborhoods can come in and
09:51:32 give their opinion on these on an individual basis.
09:51:35 Some of the others are more specific to certain
09:51:38 neighborhoods, and they said that they would be
09:51:42 contacting you.
09:51:43 So I hope that they have, though they only had about
09:51:47 from 10:00 when they got home last night until this
09:51:50 morning so you may be hearing from them.
09:51:52 So we will be looking forward to the next group and
09:51:54 continuing to work on these issues.
09:51:58 Thank you.
09:51:58 >>> Spencer Kass, 1001 Howard Avenue.
09:52:07 There are some notes that I wanted to put on the record
09:52:09 so that the legislative intent is clear.
09:52:13 They have been discussed with staff.
09:52:14 But I just want everybody to be aware of them.
09:52:17 Number 6, I just want it on the record that it will not
09:52:24 prevent any waivers by council or staff should they be
09:52:26 needed on a plan down the road.
09:52:27 It just a change to the technical manual.
09:52:30 Because of the language change, I just want that on the
09:52:32 You still can get waivers from council or by staff.
09:52:36 And number 8, I don't have a problem with it.
09:52:39 But once again, the thing I would like everyone to be
09:52:43 aware, this would not prevent an argument at a Code
09:52:45 Enforcement Board hearing that you are going to
09:52:47 establish nonconformity.
09:52:49 I want to make sure if you are a small business, and
09:52:51 you go before that board, because you have been
09:52:53 violated for something, you can still argue that your a
09:52:56 historic nonconformity.
09:53:01 It can still be used as defense at that hearing.
09:53:05 Next, I think on the community gardens, I can tell you,
09:53:10 I don't have a problem with this.
09:53:11 I think there's a lot of room for compromise here.
09:53:13 I think a reasonable compromise could be to have the
09:53:15 public hearing but to waive.
09:53:19 From what I understand the fee is about $2,000.
09:53:21 We don't charge fees on everything to recover all of
09:53:25 our money.
09:53:25 Council's position years ago was we are going to charge
09:53:28 for everything, we are going to recoup all our money,
09:53:31 waive it on certain things, we waived it on the news
09:53:33 racks, we can waive it on the community gardens, we can
09:53:36 come up with a new procedure to figure out a way to
09:53:38 compromise on that.
09:53:38 The East Tampa and West Tampa, there's no objection
09:53:41 from the community.
09:53:43 We have staff to work on those.
09:53:44 And finally, I just want to point out on the change to
09:53:47 the Ybor parking that's no objection to that.
09:53:50 I do want to bring to council's attention that if the
09:53:54 city constructed or one of its tenants constructed the
09:53:58 Centro Espanol building on, an illegal parking lot just
09:54:03 south of Barbara baker's building, drive up Howard
09:54:06 Avenue, you have Barbara baker's building, to the south
09:54:10 you have the $100,000 parking lot she was forced to
09:54:13 build, you have the City of Tampa or its tenant decided
09:54:16 to put down lawns on grass and use it as park.
09:54:22 It doesn't meet ADA requirements.
09:54:24 At the end of the day I know you can't bring up.
09:54:27 I would ask for a staff report on exactly what's going
09:54:29 on with that location.
09:54:30 It's a shame she spent so much money and made the
09:54:34 world's most beautiful parking lot for $100 and
09:54:39 Thank you.
09:54:43 >> My name is Gary Elsworth.
09:54:46 I'm president of south Seminole Heights civic
09:54:49 And I reside at 111 west Chelsea street.
09:54:54 I am very blessed to have president of the community
09:54:58 gardens in my neighborhood and I know, Mr. Chairman, I
09:55:00 know you have been out to the garden, although I
09:55:02 haven't seen you with a shovel.
09:55:03 But -- well, you could have been out there other times.
09:55:08 I don't know.
09:55:08 But I know, Ms. Mulhern, you have been out there.
09:55:11 This has been a tremendous asset to our neighborhood
09:55:14 and adds an initiative started by the civic
09:55:18 It was started by a number of individuals and has been
09:55:24 very welcome in our neighborhood.
09:55:25 We have had no issues.
09:55:27 We have had no complaints.
09:55:29 Basically, a community garden isn't doing anything that
09:55:31 any of us could go home and do, like run a power tool
09:55:35 to mow our lawn, plant gardens, dig in the dirt.
09:55:40 What it does do that we can't do at our own house is
09:55:42 build a sense of community and bring people together.
09:55:46 And people coming and going which is going to help
09:55:48 crime issues which in my neighborhood is kind of an
09:55:51 after-school period from 2:00 to 6:00.
09:55:54 You have got people looking out because they now have a
09:55:56 vested interest in that area of the
09:55:59 I think what may hurt community gardens is that there
09:56:02 is a -- if there is a huge legislative process to start
09:56:09 a garden.
09:56:09 My civic association, which is fairly active, we
09:56:12 operate on a budget of somewhere between 2500 and
09:56:16 $3,000 a year unless we find grant money somewhere.
09:56:19 It would be impossible for us to start a community
09:56:23 And a lot of these organizations, all they want to do
09:56:29 is grow food and help feed hungry people.
09:56:32 So I would ask you to please keep all of this in
09:56:34 consideration when adopting regulations to the gardens.
09:56:39 Thank you.
09:56:40 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
09:56:41 Next speaker.
09:56:41 >> Robin Milkowitz, the gardens that we are speaking
09:56:52 about, 914 east Hamilton Avenue.
09:56:56 First I would like to thank all of you and Cathy Coyle
09:57:00 for working on this ordinance so hard and trying to get
09:57:03 it exactly where we need it.
09:57:05 I would like to also reiterate what Gary Elsworth just
09:57:10 said about community gardens being a big part of the
09:57:12 community and bringing community together.
09:57:15 It's not just to grow food, it's to bring people out
09:57:19 There is one thing that I note in the change that we
09:57:22 would like to try to get changed and that's the alcohol
09:57:25 consumption note on section 9.
09:57:30 And most of the activities that we have are working
09:57:33 And we are actually working in the garden.
09:57:36 And there really isn't any need for alcohol.
09:57:38 But when we do have picnics and when we do have pot
09:57:42 lucks, we invite the community to bring in wine and
09:57:46 beer as they see fit for their dinners or their
09:57:50 But we don't sell wine.
09:57:52 We don't sell beer.
09:57:53 We just invite the community to bring it like you would
09:57:55 anybody who comes in to your house for a party.
09:57:58 And I think that the restriction for alcohol
09:58:03 consumption is a little much.
09:58:04 I think we would like to see if we could possibly
09:58:06 restrict alcohol sales instead of alcohol consumption.
09:58:09 And that's really the only thing that I see that we
09:58:12 would really like to get changed.
09:58:13 Otherwise, this ordinance is really well done, and we
09:58:17 thank all of you for taking a look at it.
09:58:19 Thank you.
09:58:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
09:58:23 Next speaker.
09:58:24 >> Thanks for allowing me to speak.
09:58:25 My name is kitty Wallace, 4902 Collins lane.
09:58:29 I am currently the chairperson of community gardens
09:58:33 special projects with the Tampa garden club.
09:58:35 And as you probably know, the Tampa garden club is part
09:58:38 of the National Garden club, and we here in the Tampa
09:58:42 area have over 400 members, and we have taken on
09:58:46 supporting community gardens as -- it's promoted to do
09:58:51 from the national level because they are promoting that
09:58:55 gardeners get out and help their communities improve,
09:58:58 and specifically there's a program at the national
09:59:00 level called beautify blight, which directs local
09:59:05 gardeners to work with youth groups, community
09:59:09 agencies, and agencies who provide food to those in
09:59:14 need to work together to produce a community garden.
09:59:19 So in that manner, I have become kind of an advocate
09:59:23 for community gardens, become knowledgeable, and I'm a
09:59:26 retired educator here in Hillsborough County so I have
09:59:28 resources to pull from internally and externally, in
09:59:33 supporting community gardens, getting to know and visit
09:59:36 different ones here, and in Pinellas County, and seeing
09:59:39 that there is a body of work than exists for over 25
09:59:43 years on community gardening, there are cities that
09:59:46 have had extensive community gardening in their
09:59:50 boundaries, and found them to be very successful and
09:59:54 are very supportive.
09:59:55 So I commend you for taking the time to put in place
09:59:59 some ordinances that will be supportive and will be
10:00:03 responsible so that the gardeners will be responsible,
10:00:05 and so that the community will be able to enjoy AP
10:00:10 community activity that's so worthwhile.
10:00:12 One thing I would ask the committee to look at is the
10:00:15 fee structure, $1,450 would really be prohibitive to
10:00:20 most of the gardeners who be putting -- putting
10:00:24 together some ideas about gardening.
10:00:25 The other thing I want you to be sure to understand is
10:00:27 that a community garden is about community, and it's
10:00:30 about gardening.
10:00:32 It is not a farm.
10:00:32 It is not an industry.
10:00:34 And as such I spoke with the manager of the agriculture
10:00:39 industry department in Hillsborough County, Mr. Steve
10:00:42 degraham, and he indicated to me that they have
10:00:45 statistics indicating that our farm produce, which as
10:00:48 you know is our ago tour program here in Hillsborough
10:00:50 County is extensive and significant.
10:00:54 Their farm product, 95% of which go out of the county,
10:00:58 so a community garden would not be a garden, the
10:01:03 products of a community garden would not compete with
10:01:08 industry agriculture.
10:01:09 They already have their places in line with contract,
10:01:13 with distributors and so forth.
10:01:15 Thank you again.
10:01:16 Appreciate it.
10:01:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:01:18 Next speaker.
10:01:19 >> I'm Ellen Snelling, the co-chair of the Tampa
10:01:25 alcohol coalition.
10:01:26 I want to talk about the alcoholic beverage portion of
10:01:30 this AME.
10:01:31 And I want to thank you for taking a look at this, and
10:01:34 also for zoning and land development and city legal for
10:01:37 all the work they have done with the public workshop.
10:01:39 It's been really great to be able to give some input on
10:01:43 Our concern is about underage drinking and DUI.
10:01:47 In Hillsborough County, still remains high in both
10:01:49 underage drinking, and we are number one in the state
10:01:51 as far as DUI arrests, and in the top three as far as
10:01:56 DUI fatalities and crashes.
10:01:58 So our concern is as far as alcoholic beverage
10:02:01 establishments, particularly those that are COP and
10:02:05 stay open till 3:00 in the morning.
10:02:07 I just what like to see if this goes on to make shower
10:02:10 those are looked at very carefully, and I have a
10:02:13 concern at this time about 4(COP-R)s that are not SRX
10:02:20 so the city has to look at them to see whether they are
10:02:23 actually selling at least 51% food, 49% alcohol,
10:02:27 because the state doesn't look at those.
10:02:30 That's a local issue.
10:02:31 And I think there are quite a few that want to
10:02:34 basically be a restaurant by day and a club or a bar at
10:02:39 And when you look at the county does something called
10:02:44 last drink surveys and that shows the DUIs all over the
10:02:48 county, they were asked where they are drinking and
10:02:50 establishments that tend to stay open till 3:00 in the
10:02:53 morning are usually the ones on that list.
10:02:55 Of course, it's just a percentage of them.
10:02:58 Some do very well.
10:02:58 Some don't.
10:02:59 But I just think the more that we can look at those and
10:03:01 make sure that they are following responsible beverage
10:03:06 training and being responsible, the better.
10:03:10 I did have a concern about the University of South
10:03:11 Florida area and university of Tampa area, just to make
10:03:15 sure that there's enough restrictions on there, because
10:03:18 college drinking tends to be higher if there's greater
10:03:20 access right around within, say, a mile or so of the
10:03:25 And I did want to mention a couple of other ordinances,
10:03:28 and I know it's not in this cycle but maybe for the
10:03:31 future, but to have age 21 to go into bars and clubs,
10:03:35 not restaurants, but bars and clubs to restrict that to
10:03:39 21 and up.
10:03:40 There's quite a few cities and counties across the
10:03:42 state that do this.
10:03:43 And the other one is a midnight permit, where it's an
10:03:48 on-premises establishment wants to stay open past
10:03:51 midnight to get a special permit, and what happens is
10:03:54 they are looked at more carefully.
10:03:56 And if they do have a lot of underage drinking, calls
10:03:59 for service, problems, noise, then the city can go back
10:04:02 and tell them you are going to have to close at
10:04:04 midnight for a week or a month or whatever is decided.
10:04:09 So it's a couple ways that the city can get a little
10:04:12 more control of some of these establishments.
10:04:15 But I really do appreciate you looking at this.
10:04:17 Thank you very much.
10:04:24 >> Good morning.
10:04:25 My name is Walter Crumbley, the president of Courier
10:04:27 City Oscawana.
10:04:30 I'm here to speak about the changes to the alcohol
10:04:33 licensing thing.
10:04:37 I sent in a memorandum to you all a couple days ago,
10:04:40 and I hope you got an opportunity to take a look at it.
10:04:46 Basically, our area is an overlay district already.
10:04:52 On top of that, apparently under the Planning
10:04:54 Commission it's also a mixed use corridor district.
10:05:04 You start out with the overlay district with the idea
10:05:06 you are going to preserve the neighborhood and enhance
10:05:08 it and problem moat civic pride, and then through a
10:05:11 series of waivers an other actions that have been
10:05:17 taken, it's turned into a concentration of bars.
10:05:22 And restaurants, quote, that serve alcohol.
10:05:27 What I proposed was that you take into account when you
10:05:32 are changing these rules that this is a special
10:05:36 It's already been created.
10:05:38 It should be preserved as such.
10:05:41 And keep in mind the problems that wave got with the
10:05:44 second highest DUI rate in the city, the parking issues
10:05:48 that we continue to face, the late-night noise and
10:05:52 criminal mischief most of which is committed on the
10:05:57 city signs.
10:05:58 The heavy traffic on roads that were never designed to
10:06:02 handle it, and the high concentration of places that
10:06:05 serve alcohol in a very limited area.
10:06:12 -- very limited area.
10:06:14 There's only one restriction in there, and that was the
10:06:17 250 feet separation from other alcohol-serving
10:06:22 beverages, zero on the residential places and zero for
10:06:28 institutional uses, so the only separation you get is
10:06:33 250 feet from one bar to another.
10:06:36 And we think that's very poor.
10:06:40 The rest of the city has got 1,000 feet.
10:06:44 So we believe that that's not a very equitable way.
10:06:49 Thank you.
10:06:54 >>YVONNE CAPIN: You're welcome.
10:06:55 Mr. Crumbly, a question here.
10:06:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me suggest we finish the public and
10:06:59 then have questions.
10:07:01 Because we only have 30 minutes.
10:07:04 Let's finish the public and then ask questions.
10:07:07 Thank you.
10:07:07 Next speaker.
10:07:07 >> John Stearns, 36212 west Paxton Avenue in Sun Bay
10:07:17 South, an urban farmer.
10:07:19 I want to offer a couple reminders regarding the
10:07:21 community gardening project.
10:07:22 I want to thank you for your interest in that.
10:07:25 One reminder is that the country was founded by farmers
10:07:28 and gardeners.
10:07:29 I would hope that you would want to encourage that.
10:07:31 I feel that the proposed fee, which I understand is
10:07:35 $1500, is in essence punitive.
10:07:40 A lot of people are doing this to cut their budgets to
10:07:43 save money and $1500 will buy a lot of compost, seeds,
10:07:47 fertilizer, garden tools, and I would hope that you
10:07:50 would waive any application fees so that people can use
10:07:52 those funds for the actual garden.
10:07:54 Thank you.
10:08:01 >> My name is Patricia Murphy, address 3744 golden
10:08:06 eagle drive.
10:08:06 And I'm here today on behalf of the general federation
10:08:11 of women's clubs, New Tampa district.
10:08:17 Our club has over 200 members that support community
10:08:21 And the federation has 2 million members in the United
10:08:27 States supporting community gardens.
10:08:31 Our experience has been that it provides a catalyst for
10:08:34 neighborhood and community development, beautifies
10:08:39 neighborhoods, provides nutritious food, reduces family
10:08:43 food budget, conserves resources, creates opportunities
10:08:47 for recreation, education, and exercise.
10:08:51 Reduces crime, preserves space, reduces city heat and
10:09:00 provides opportunity for connection.
10:09:00 With this in mind, we hope that you will waive the
10:09:06 permit fee for community gardens and process the
10:09:11 ordinance very quickly.
10:09:13 Thank you.
10:09:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:09:16 Next speaker.
10:09:17 >> Ricky Fredericka, 1202 west Linebaugh Avenue.
10:09:26 There's been a lot of discussion of waiving the fee of
10:09:28 the community gardens, and I agree with that.
10:09:31 And the point -- I consider a community garden as far
10:09:35 as the city should consider it as a private recreation
10:09:38 facility, an allowed use, in basically all districts,
10:09:42 zoning districts.
10:09:43 And I take particular concern to, I guess, number 8
10:09:48 which describes parking, where it says that there will
10:09:53 be a parking provision for office or commercial
10:10:00 districts, which I anticipate we are talking about a
10:10:04 $1500 fee, provide parking in these districts would I
10:10:09 think also prevent the garden from being able to be
10:10:12 formed because there would be concerns that this would
10:10:15 need to be an engineered parking lot with ADA access
10:10:19 and a 26-foot drive aisle, and that's going to very
10:10:26 quickly go beyond what a $1500 fee would prevent a
10:10:35 garden from growing out of.
10:10:36 So though I agree with the fee waiver, I think the
10:10:40 council should also consider the restrictive nature of
10:10:43 that specific line item.
10:10:44 Thank you.
10:10:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you, sir.
10:10:49 >> Good morning.
10:10:56 I will try to be as brief as possible.
10:10:57 Under alcohol beverages, it shows grocery and
10:11:01 convenience, retail package sales that would be an S-1
10:11:07 and wouldn't come before you.
10:11:10 I have a very long memory, as you all know.
10:11:12 And the first time I ever appeared before you was to
10:11:18 stop a convenience store in my neighborhood from
10:11:21 selling beer and wine.
10:11:22 It was a drive-through convenience store, and they
10:11:26 wanted to sell beer and wine on the corner of Himes and
10:11:31 It's a very difficult thing, because everybody wants to
10:11:34 stop by and pick up a six-pack of beer or whatever
10:11:37 But the convenience stores are what I particularly
10:11:40 object to on this idea, because it becomes a gathering
10:11:48 place for people who shouldn't be in the area.
10:11:53 It's just one more place to buy booze.
10:11:57 And I'm not against drinking.
10:11:59 I'm not against any of that stuff.
10:12:01 It's just when you drink and drive, we all get in
10:12:04 And most of the complaints -- I have never seen a
10:12:08 convenience store yet come before you that we didn't
10:12:10 have a lot of neighborhood objection.
10:12:16 So I would appreciate it if you would delete the
10:12:18 convenience store.
10:12:18 If it's a Walgreens, that's going to sell beer and wine
10:12:21 in the store, or a Publix or something like that.
10:12:25 We have already got big plans for them.
10:12:27 But the little guy hop opens a convenience store to buy
10:12:32 bread and milk and then they are selling beer, it's a
10:12:35 different world.
10:12:35 Thank you very much.
10:12:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:12:42 >> Good morning.
10:12:43 Ron Rotella, Westshore alliance.
10:12:45 I want to address the alcoholic beverage issue,
10:12:48 specifically the X license.
10:12:53 We don't have any concerns about the issuance of
10:12:55 permits and support the staff and the administration's
10:12:57 proposal to move many of those permit approvals to an
10:13:02 S-1 approval.
10:13:05 In this economy, to require somebody to go through a
10:13:08 public hearing, pay the fee, $2500, hire an attorney,
10:13:13 do a metes and bounds description, go through a public
10:13:16 hearing process, that's about $25,000.
10:13:19 That's for a small restaurant or a Dardens or Seasons
10:13:25 And in this economy, those kind of fees associated with
10:13:30 trying to do business is pretty exorbitant.
10:13:33 But as I understand the SRX license again, we support
10:13:37 going to the S-1, but if you have hours of limitation
10:13:42 from 11:00 during the week and 1 a.m. on weekends, then
10:13:48 you have to go to the public hearing process.
10:13:50 Now think about the Westshore business district.
10:13:53 We are going to host the Republican national committee.
10:13:56 We host Super Bowls.
10:13:59 We have all kinds of functions.
10:14:01 The malls during the holiday season stay open till
10:14:06 11:00 at night.
10:14:07 What is wrong with somebody wanting to get a glass of
10:14:10 wine with their meal?
10:14:13 What are you going to do with the Republican national
10:14:16 Tell all the restaurants out there, sorry, when people
10:14:18 come in for a meal you can't serve a glass of wine with
10:14:21 their meal after 11:00?
10:14:22 So we have major concerns with the hours of operation
10:14:27 associated with the SRX, force them to go to a public
10:14:31 We have to deal with that some way.
10:14:33 I think it can be dealt with as part of the S-1
10:14:36 But we really don't think that the public hearing
10:14:39 process is the way to go, and that I will bring to your
10:14:43 attention that you should receive the letter from the
10:14:45 flab restaurant lodging association basically
10:14:51 expressing the same concern.
10:14:52 Thank you.
10:14:52 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:14:57 Next speaker.
10:14:57 >> Kelly Benjamin, 301 east Linebaugh street, Tampa.
10:15:08 I would like to encourage the council to take a look at
10:15:10 some of the other examples that have been set in other
10:15:13 cities that have passed ordinances related to community
10:15:15 gardens, particularly cities with similar situations as
10:15:20 If you do that and look at the research, it's hard to
10:15:24 find any ordinance that is as restrictive as the
10:15:28 ordinance that's being considered here.
10:15:30 And I also think it's important to look at this in a
10:15:33 different light.
10:15:37 Community gardens do just that, build community, get
10:15:40 people out and talking with each other and build a
10:15:43 culture in neighborhoods.
10:15:43 And I have noticed that, you know, looking at other
10:15:47 cities where this has happened, it has reduced crime,
10:15:53 it's improved property values, and it has brought
10:15:57 people together, and it's certainly not competing with
10:16:00 local agriculture or anything of that nature.
10:16:03 Particularly cities, Portland, Oregon, San Francisco,
10:16:08 Los Angeles, all of these cities have thriving
10:16:10 community gardens in their neighborhoods, and it's
10:16:14 become a great thing and it's attracted people to these
10:16:19 And I just want to encourage this City Council to look
10:16:22 at that in a different light.
10:16:24 Thank you.
10:16:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:16:25 Next speaker.
10:16:25 >> Good morning.
10:16:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: After this gentleman, there will be no
10:16:36 other public testimony.
10:16:37 30 minutes we allow for our workshop on each item and
10:16:40 we have gone way over that, I have been informed.
10:16:42 So after this gentleman will be the last person to
10:16:45 Thank you.
10:16:45 Go ahead.
10:16:45 >> Good morning, council.
10:16:48 I'm Rebecca and assistant professor of anthropology at
10:16:53 the University of south Florida. My comments don't in
10:16:56 any way represent the university.
10:16:58 And I have been doing research, social science research
10:17:07 on community gardens for the last couple of years,
10:17:12 since 2008, and my students and I have been really
10:17:17 interested in the social movement aspect of community
10:17:22 And one of the things that we have documented, which I
10:17:26 think is different than oh some of the information
10:17:29 that's presented by other speakers here, is the fact
10:17:32 that community gardens must be from the ground up.
10:17:37 It must be driven by each community in which they are
10:17:39 And that's been a very important element.
10:17:46 And as far as bringing people together and getting
10:17:50 community members and the City Council to work
10:17:52 together, it seems to be paramount to the success of
10:17:55 these kinds of initiatives across the -- in cities
10:17:59 across the use.
10:18:01 In other words, those places mentioned by the previous
10:18:03 speaker where there are successful partnerships between
10:18:07 the residents of neighborhoods, who are interested in
10:18:11 starting and maintaining gardens, and the city
10:18:14 governments, are those places where you see the most
10:18:18 sustained and long-term effort in this regard.
10:18:21 We have done lots of research, other speakers have
10:18:24 mentioned the copious amounts of research that's been
10:18:26 done and the benefits of community gardens.
10:18:29 I won't go through all of that again.
10:18:31 There are also some challenges involved with community
10:18:33 gardens for residents.
10:18:35 And I think that's important to acknowledge.
10:18:37 But I applaud the council for your efforts in holding
10:18:41 this hearing today, and in your attempts to work with
10:18:45 community members on the best way to move forward with
10:18:49 community gardens.
10:18:50 And I want to mention one last thing, which is a
10:18:55 concern about the fees being prohibitive to the
10:18:59 maintenance and the starting of new gardens for
10:19:02 residents in the city.
10:19:04 We have interviewed dozens of people, and in East Tampa
10:19:08 and Seminole Heights, and in Tampa Heights who are
10:19:12 supportive of community gardens, and are interested in
10:19:14 seeing this kind of effort succeed in the future.
10:19:18 Thank you very much.
10:19:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
10:19:22 >> My name is Jonathan Coleman, 503 south Audubon
10:19:31 South of Howard -- South Howard area.
10:19:34 I appreciate you all taking time today to let us come
10:19:39 I'm a Tampa native and I want to Plant High School,
10:19:43 went on to Florida State, coming back to Tampa.
10:19:45 I wanted to point out to you all how I observed that I
10:19:48 have more friends in Florida State young professionals
10:19:53 that have moved to the South Howard Avenue because of
10:19:56 what they like about that, and I have friends from high
10:20:02 I am completely baffled that in a that many young
10:20:04 people want to be in Tampa, but yet each cycle as
10:20:10 graduates come I have more and more friends that heir
10:20:12 moving to the area.
10:20:13 And I just really wanted to make sure that things
10:20:18 start -- point out about how there's people that have
10:20:26 come buy in the area like myself that are continuing to
10:20:28 pay more and more for houses in the area, and, of
10:20:32 course, with the housing bubble things went down a
10:20:37 little bit but I feel the area is experiencing a little
10:20:39 more stable housing prices because I can walk to green
10:20:45 life and get my groceries, walk to CVS, walk to
10:20:48 restaurants like Mangroves, and 717.
10:20:51 It's a walking community.
10:20:53 It's growing.
10:20:54 And the bars seem -- what goes on at night, if there's
10:21:00 complaints about that, how do we -- like there's no
10:21:08 trash cans everywhere.
10:21:09 People complain that they have trash in their yard.
10:21:11 There's no place to throw your trash.
10:21:14 There's places that are selling stuff on the street,
10:21:18 then let people walk off.
10:21:19 The bars and restaurants don't let people walk out with
10:21:22 anything in their hand.
10:21:23 You know, the trash is coming from what's being sold on
10:21:26 the street, not what's in the businesses.
10:21:29 And it's something that -- I get to brag about our
10:21:34 And I thank you all for taking the time.
10:21:37 And I am not envious of the decisions you have to make
10:21:41 balancing out the residents with the businesses, but
10:21:45 it's worth it.
10:21:47 Thanks for your time.
10:21:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thanks very much.
10:21:51 Councilwoman Capin.
10:21:53 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.
10:21:55 Mr. Crumbly, are you still here?
10:21:59 Mr. Crumbly, you made reference to the overlay district
10:22:10 and then the mix use corridor.
10:22:12 And the overlay district, is that correct?
10:22:16 That has to do with -- correct me if I go off track
10:22:22 here -- that has to do with building and construction,
10:22:27 mixed use corridor is what was handed out on that
10:22:32 evening, when I think we all have that map.
10:22:35 Which is a comprehensive Planning Commission, Tampa
10:22:43 vision map, and specific areas.
10:22:46 So Howard Avenue falls into that, all of Howard Avenue,
10:22:49 not just South Howard Avenue.
10:22:51 >>> But alcohol is a zoning issue.
10:22:59 >> I'm sorry?
10:23:00 >>> Alcohol is a zoning issue.
10:23:04 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Absolutely correct.
10:23:04 When we have the conditions that we put on there, under
10:23:07 our many conditions that are put, we look over this
10:23:11 paperwork that was handed to us.
10:23:15 Every single restaurant, and almost all of them are
10:23:18 incidental to use, or are, just about every single
10:23:24 establishment on Howard Avenue.
10:23:29 What I would like to ask you is, the Howard Avenue
10:23:37 corridor district, which was proposed, it would have
10:23:43 special conditions on alcoholic beverage licensing
10:23:50 going forward.
10:23:53 Is that something that you could support?
10:23:57 >>> If there's some special restrictions which I have
10:24:00 already suggested, yes.
10:24:03 >>YVONNE CAPIN: All right.
10:24:04 That was one of the questions that came up at the
10:24:05 community meeting.
10:24:08 The other is, we have conditions in place.
10:24:16 If we could come up with compliance resource, in order
10:24:26 specifically, not just South Howard Avenue, the entire
10:24:29 City of Tampa, every single alcoholic beverage permit
10:24:33 has conditions on it.
10:24:37 If we also could come up with compliance resource that
10:24:43 specifically is to this purpose, which is compliance
10:24:48 with the conditions with the privilege permit which is
10:24:53 the zoning that is brought that they can take to the
10:24:57 state for their alcoholic beverage, would you -- would
10:25:03 you support that?
10:25:04 >>> Well, I think the problem is that we already have
10:25:07 enforcement agencies in place.
10:25:11 You know, all we need to do is get them to do what they
10:25:14 have already been charged with doing rather than have
10:25:18 another bureaucracy on top of the one we have already
10:25:28 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay.
10:25:28 And that has been working very well for you all?
10:25:31 >>> No, ma'am.
10:25:32 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay.
10:25:35 How would you --
10:25:37 >>> All I'm saying is perhaps we need better
10:25:39 coordination between the city agencies that are already
10:25:42 charged with taking care of such things.
10:25:46 Now, I've tried to work with them as much as I can.
10:25:51 But I think there needs to be more cooperation between
10:25:53 the various organizations charged with this.
10:25:59 >> These proposed concepts is totally separate from
10:26:06 enforcement that were brought to, the convenience
10:26:11 These are going forward.
10:26:12 These aren't baseline.
10:26:14 Enforcement is a totally separate issue.
10:26:21 When we have -- so we have in place zoning that was
10:26:24 placed 20, 30 years ago when this council or this
10:26:30 administration was not here, but the conditions are on
10:26:35 There are businesses -- and many of them comply with
10:26:39 the rules.
10:26:40 There are many, many businesses that are not complying
10:26:44 with the rules.
10:26:46 And it can be overwhelming for the code enforcement to
10:26:52 make that case.
10:26:53 What I would like to see -- and I think I'm working on
10:26:57 that -- is specific to compliance of all the
10:27:02 conditions, because every single -- every single
10:27:07 alcoholic permit in the City of Tampa has conditions
10:27:10 with it.
10:27:12 And we have 18 to 1900 establishments in the City of
10:27:22 And the condition -- because we have a 1,000-foot
10:27:32 Almost every single one needs a waiver to comply.
10:27:36 Therefore, what I found in this area, in South Howard,
10:27:44 which happens to be the district that I represent, is
10:27:47 you have restaurants, some that are acting as bars, and
10:27:56 I saw that first hand.
10:27:57 I have known it.
10:27:58 I have worked through it.
10:27:59 I have been through there many times, but this week was
10:28:03 the first time I was with the squad.
10:28:07 They are working on it.
10:28:09 But it is another part of their job.
10:28:14 We can actually have a compliance force.
10:28:20 And that is something that I'm asking.
10:28:22 If we could have a compliance force, would you --
10:28:29 >>> We would support that.
10:28:33 >> It would be support by the establishment that has
10:28:36 the privilege to serve alcoholic and sell alcoholic
10:28:41 It would not be any added to the taxpayer.
10:28:43 >>> You know, if you could get them to pony up enough
10:28:46 money to do it, yes, we would support it.
10:28:51 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I think we can.
10:28:52 Thank you.
10:28:52 >>> Thank you.
10:28:55 >>CHAIRMAN: Ms. Coyle, I have a question for you.
10:28:58 Community gardens.
10:29:02 For the upkeep.
10:29:04 When you first start a community garden everybody is
10:29:06 gung ho, excited.
10:29:08 As the time goes by, everybody starts dropping off,
10:29:10 nobody is there to keep it going.
10:29:12 So what there for the upkeep of it?
10:29:17 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It fall itself under chapter 19
10:29:18 property maintenance regulation so if there is
10:29:21 overgrowth or accumulations on-site code enforcement
10:29:23 would see it, a complaint would be made and a citation
10:29:26 They are given a certain amount of time to come into
10:29:29 If not they are sent forward to the magistrate.
10:29:31 And then ultimately potentially fined.
10:29:33 >>GWEN MILLER: I knew one garden started, people
10:29:38 dropping off, nobody going there, and it's just there.
10:29:40 So I just wondered what provision there was for upkeep.
10:29:44 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Why does there need to be a $1500
10:29:55 application fee?
10:29:58 And what direction does that money go to?
10:30:01 >>> that's something I was going to talk about.
10:30:03 I'm not really clear where they got the figure they are
10:30:05 talking about.
10:30:06 As the special use 1 application, we were actually
10:30:11 going to propose a slight change to the fee structure
10:30:15 just for community gardens.
10:30:16 We have a special use 1 application process now for
10:30:19 home applications and extended family residences.
10:30:22 It's a simple application and a simple site plan that
10:30:25 shows where your home occupation is going to be or
10:30:28 where that structure is going to be.
10:30:30 We are expecting the same amount of work.
10:30:33 Those applications would be expected in this particular
10:30:36 application so that would be about $180 give or take.
10:30:39 It might be 181.
10:30:40 That's what we were going to bring forward as the
10:30:43 proposed fee for City Council.
10:30:45 It would be an administrative review.
10:30:47 >> Does the site plan have to be hand drawn?
10:30:51 >>> As long as it's to scale.
10:30:53 >> And to show --
10:30:54 >>> It does not have to be a sealed drawing, no.
10:30:56 >> Because I don't want to see us create another layer
10:30:59 of government.
10:31:00 And I think if it goes a big community garden
10:31:03 operation, that's what we are going to be doing because
10:31:05 code enforcement is going to get involved, and we are
10:31:07 trying to cut government, not build it up, because we
10:31:09 have got plenty of government.
10:31:11 We have got plenty of fees.
10:31:14 I mean the impact fees and everything else.
10:31:16 Pretty soon you are going to have to pay a fee to
10:31:19 I mean, it's too much.
10:31:22 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The issue, I think, what you heard
10:31:26 from the different sides of the community garden issue
10:31:29 is -- and this is where I have been fitting in
10:31:34 between -- should it be a full-blown public hearing
10:31:36 before City Council or is it administrative review and
10:31:38 a permit?
10:31:38 If it's an administrative review and permit, we can
10:31:41 keep it at the $180 or so.
10:31:44 If it's a full-blown public hearing before City
10:31:46 Council, it does require a site plan, a development
10:31:50 review committee review.
10:31:51 It's a special use 2 just like any church or daycare or
10:31:54 anything else that came before you.
10:31:55 And that is the $2,000 fee that was mentioned.
10:31:58 And it's paying for the facility, everything else that
10:32:03 is taught in the review.
10:32:06 >> I support the administrative fee.
10:32:08 I think we have people that are well qualified to make
10:32:10 those decisions.
10:32:10 I don't think the City Council needs to get involved.
10:32:14 With a public hearing.
10:32:16 We don't have the time.
10:32:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Miranda.
10:32:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Chairman, as I sit here and
10:32:21 listen to the discussions, it goes back to history.
10:32:31 Alcohol zoning stays forever.
10:32:34 Like 007 or one of those movies.
10:32:37 But when you start at the restrictions, they are
10:32:44 different based on location, neighborhood settings,
10:32:48 requirements of distance, and things of that nature.
10:32:52 2(COP) and 2(COP-R) are different than a 4(COP) and
10:32:58 4(COP-R), or 4(COP) or X or whatever.
10:33:04 When you start looking, and I am going to speak on both
10:33:06 subject matters.
10:33:08 Have we done a good job?
10:33:09 I don't believe we have.
10:33:11 Years back, when it was 60-40, this all hall would be
10:33:16 filled just as it is this morning on people who
10:33:18 couldn't meet the requirements of the 60-40.
10:33:20 With the R.
10:33:22 So we changed that in the late 70s to accommodate,
10:33:27 and we went 51-49.
10:33:29 And guess what happened.
10:33:31 Some of them Rs want to become something else, not
10:33:36 only -- knowing what they had, what they had to live
10:33:39 with, because at that time, guess what, it's more
10:33:41 profit in selling alcohol than there is food.
10:33:46 So what does it mean if you are going to have the
10:33:48 kitchen open?
10:33:50 Are you going to staff it the way you were staffing it
10:33:53 before 10:00?
10:33:54 I don't think so.
10:33:59 So what I'm saying is, let's look at the root of the
10:34:01 problem, not just the top of the pimple.
10:34:06 It becomes realistically that from sometime to closing
10:34:13 time, which is 3:00 in the morning for alcohol, is it
10:34:17 really a restaurant?
10:34:20 Or a bar?
10:34:21 And there's where the problem lies.
10:34:25 So I'm not against alcohol.
10:34:27 But I see things happening sometime back without the
10:34:31 two new members on this council.
10:34:34 We changed.
10:34:36 We went from neighborhood protectionism to saying this
10:34:40 was accepted here, and this is what we are going to let
10:34:43 you have so you knew it in the beginning, to saying all
10:34:48 can open up till 3:00 in the morning and sell alcohol.
10:34:52 And at that time, I say you are making about 2,000 bars
10:34:56 out of your restaurants.
10:34:57 Very few believed me.
10:35:00 It starting to happen.
10:35:02 When I sit back and I listen to community garden -- and
10:35:05 there's nothing wrong -- I am a very strict individual.
10:35:08 I believe in property rights, but I also believe in
10:35:12 If that's your property and you want to grow anything
10:35:15 that's legal -- (laughter) -- notice I said anything
10:35:21 that's legal, I'm certainly not against that.
10:35:24 You know what?
10:35:27 I'm young enough -- notice I didn't say old enough --
10:35:30 I'm young enough to remember when people in Ybor City
10:35:34 and in West Tampa did exactly what we are talking about
10:35:38 In fact, there were small lots that had cows, horses,
10:35:43 mules, pigs, everything, chickens.
10:35:46 You picked up your own eggs on a small piece of
10:35:50 However, there was no fee, there was no government
10:35:56 intervention, there was no sale of services, there was
10:35:59 no sale of the product, it was for your own
10:36:03 I'm not against that.
10:36:04 But when you start saying that you are going to
10:36:06 regulate something, and it's not a farm and it's not an
10:36:10 industry, and you are going to charge a fee for coming
10:36:12 in and doing something that is nothing, then I start
10:36:16 having a problem with it.
10:36:18 Because in my mind I'm telling myself, let me
10:36:21 understand this, if people are going to walk up and buy
10:36:25 something then it's a business.
10:36:26 What's going to happen when you have a business in the
10:36:28 middle of a neighborhood on an empty lot on your own
10:36:34 I, you, anyone here in this room can certainly be
10:36:37 entitled to do whatever they want to do and give it
10:36:43 away, or do whatever, take it to the farmer's market
10:36:47 and sell it.
10:36:48 I'm not opposed to that.
10:36:49 But once we start charging, no matter what it is, even
10:36:52 if it's a dollar for a license, then you are a
10:36:56 And that neighborhood, maybe not today, but if you are
10:37:02 successful -- and I hope you are -- will start to have
10:37:05 a decline.
10:37:05 I can tell you this.
10:37:09 In the West Tampa area at these events there used to be
10:37:15 a Port-o-Let that would come in.
10:37:17 Guess what happened.
10:37:18 Those Port-o-Lets now are standard equipment year
10:37:23 So I don't want to see that throughout this fine city,
10:37:27 including West Tampa.
10:37:31 So it used to be you can park cars in your lot.
10:37:35 Now guess what's happening.
10:37:37 And I have had some conversation with some of these lot
10:37:41 Now they have buses that come in and party all night
10:37:45 So what happened to the adjacent property owners who
10:37:49 have to get up in the morning and go to work while
10:37:51 somebody else is partying next door?
10:37:54 It's not a good mix.
10:37:58 It's like water and electricity.
10:38:00 Somebody is going to get shocked, because of the result
10:38:03 you have isn't going to be pretty.
10:38:04 So when you start these combinations, if you take out
10:38:07 the word "community," it will be a community
10:38:12 transmission shop?
10:38:14 Or you do it for free.
10:38:16 I know she's looking at me like she wants to hit me.
10:38:19 Maybe she will.
10:38:20 What I'm saying is that these things to me don't mix.
10:38:25 If you have to charge a fee to do something, we don't
10:38:29 charge a fee to community people who do the gardening.
10:38:32 I don't believe we do.
10:38:35 Maybe I'm wrong.
10:38:36 And they are wonderful people.
10:38:37 And all of you are wonderful trying to do what you
10:38:41 think is best.
10:38:42 But there's a big picture out there of what could
10:38:45 And these are the things that are very troubling to me
10:38:47 as I sit here and listen to the testimony this morning.
10:38:51 But let's see what happens.
10:38:53 And let's see where we go.
10:38:58 And it's -- zoning of alcohol is forever.
10:39:03 It's not -- it's like your son and daughter.
10:39:08 They are yours forever.
10:39:09 You can pick your friends but you can't pick your
10:39:13 So it's basically the same thing.
10:39:17 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
10:39:26 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you, councilman Miranda.
10:39:27 I totally agree with you.
10:39:28 Zoning of alcohol is forever.
10:39:31 And it has been on there forever before we got here,
10:39:35 before this administration got here.
10:39:40 There is many, many zoning for alcohol that is R, X,
10:39:48 not just -- all over the City of Tampa.
10:39:51 Before any of us got here.
10:39:55 Come March of next year, it will be a new
10:39:58 administration here, and pretty much a new council
10:40:04 sitting up here.
10:40:09 Do we as a body want to work on the compliance that is
10:40:17 there from a very long time ago, that we as a city and
10:40:23 a community have to deal with every single day?
10:40:30 That is part of what my proposal will be.
10:40:35 I'm working on it.
10:40:36 And I just want you to know that we have -- there's
10:40:42 businesses that are, you know, ABC, or XYZ, and for 30
10:40:50 years, they have been -- they have no hours of
10:40:54 They have a 4(COP-R), and they have been wonderful,
10:40:58 wonderful complying business.
10:41:02 They even throw their trash out at the right time.
10:41:06 But XYZ retires and decides to sell that property.
10:41:12 Along with that goes a condition.
10:41:16 Those conditions have to be complied with.
10:41:18 And that is what I, as a new City Council member, who
10:41:23 may or may not be here, come April, would like to work
10:41:27 on before I leave.
10:41:30 Thank you.
10:41:30 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I guess, Cathy, we know what you want
10:41:36 us to do today because my understanding is we are not
10:41:38 taking any action.
10:41:39 I would like to know, though, based on the alcoholic
10:41:44 beverage, how a municipal our size has administration
10:41:50 done whether it comes before a legislative body.
10:41:54 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Based on the research of that we
10:41:56 provided in the last couple of workshops, the majority
10:41:57 of the municipalities jurisdictions have a certain
10:42:00 level of administrative permitting for alcohol.
10:42:03 From very small beach communities all the way to large
10:42:07 And that was the whole purpose of the workshops that we
10:42:09 went through, especially with the neighborhood groups
10:42:11 that attended, was to find out what are some -- what
10:42:14 are the uses, what is widely accepted, those grocery
10:42:18 stores, those large hotels, that clearly have a
10:42:22 restaurant or bar inside, and then room service and so
10:42:26 What are those types of uses that typically have
10:42:28 alcohol that are not the problems in and around the
10:42:32 Let's get those with certain criteria to nail down
10:42:35 those and let those go through more streamlined
10:42:38 process, and keep the other ones that have been
10:42:41 questionable over the years and have had issues around
10:42:43 the city bring those to you, but make sure that the
10:42:45 ones that are brought to you have better criteria than
10:42:48 we have today.
10:42:49 And I want to reemphasize the only criteria you have
10:42:53 today is 1,000 feet.
10:42:56 It is waived consistency.
10:42:58 Therefore, whether or not the 1,000 feet means anything
10:43:02 is questionable.
10:43:04 That is the only thing you have today.
10:43:06 And the whole purpose of this exercise was not just to
10:43:09 let some go an easy pass and some become a hard pass to
10:43:13 figure out what are those issues that are out there,
10:43:16 identify them, and actually get them codified.
10:43:19 So you have a better set of tools to use when making
10:43:23 these changes.
10:43:24 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let me go further.
10:43:26 What limit does the -- what limit does the
10:43:29 administration have in place, certain criteria, either
10:43:32 you meet it or you don't meet it?
10:43:35 Do you understand my question?
10:43:38 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Not quite.
10:43:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay, the municipalities where does
10:43:42 not come before a legislative body.
10:43:43 They have -- criteria has been set.
10:43:49 You go in and get a permit.
10:43:52 You either meet it or you don't meet it.
10:43:55 For instance, it's 1,000 feet and they don't meet it,
10:43:57 they don't get it.
10:43:59 There is no appeal to the legislative body.
10:44:02 >>CATHERINE COYLE: There's always an appeal or ability
10:44:04 to make a request.
10:44:06 I mean, Hillsborough County has administrative permits.
10:44:11 Ft. Lauderdale.
10:44:11 Palm Beach.
10:44:15 Most of them have some level of administrative
10:44:19 The similar types of uses that we are proposing today.
10:44:22 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I will tell you out of my ten years on
10:44:24 county commission I never heard of a license for
10:44:28 alcohol come before the county commission, because
10:44:30 there was one, there's administrative done or hearing
10:44:34 Two, they put restrictions in place, you met it or you
10:44:38 didn't meet it.
10:44:40 Simple as that.
10:44:41 But, anyway, I just want to make -- the other issue is
10:44:46 on this community gardens, there is no fee as I
10:44:51 understand other than the --
10:44:55 >> The community garden issue, the reason it's before
10:44:57 you especially in the residential districts is it's not
10:45:00 a permitted use.
10:45:04 The principal function and purpose of a residential lot
10:45:06 is for residential use.
10:45:08 The community gardens are not permitted on residential
10:45:11 The whole purpose, one of the main purposes behind this
10:45:14 regulation is to potentially allow them with some type
10:45:17 of process and condition.
10:45:23 So in answer to be your question there is no fee
10:45:26 because it is actually not allowed.
10:45:27 >> The fee is not allowed -- I mean, what's not allowed
10:45:32 so no fee.
10:45:33 I heard you say this morning again you wonder where the
10:45:36 fee came from.
10:45:37 So where do people get this $1500 fee?
10:45:40 >>> I am not sure.
10:45:41 I imagine they might have looked at our fee schedule
10:45:43 and made the assumption of what it would be.
10:45:45 But it's not on our fee schedule.
10:45:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: So there is no --
10:45:50 >>CATHERINE COYLE: There's no fee on there for
10:45:51 community garden review.
10:45:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I want to be sure on all of these
10:45:57 hearings, what is the cost to the city when we have
10:46:01 these public hearings on these issues?
10:46:07 I would be curious as to what the cost is.
10:46:11 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I will tell you the fees that we
10:46:12 have are based on the labor and materials that it costs
10:46:15 the staff from land development to bring them forward
10:46:18 to you and our time and processing as well as all the
10:46:22 paperwork and everything else.
10:46:24 Now, as far as costing out what your time is, I have
10:46:28 not personally done that.
10:46:29 >> Well, I'm just saying I will be curious.
10:46:36 So one thing about making an informed decision, you
10:46:38 want information.
10:46:39 It's not that you necessarily agree with me or not.
10:46:41 But you want information so that you can make an
10:46:43 informed decision.
10:46:44 >> Correct.
10:46:46 >> You want public testimony but also want information
10:46:49 so you can make an informed decision, you have all the
10:46:51 data, all the information before you so you can make a
10:46:53 good decision.
10:46:54 Because I will tell you all based on the budget that we
10:46:57 just passed and based on that weighed to take money out
10:47:00 of reserves to finish that, I will tell you that this
10:47:03 city will have issues next budget cycle.
10:47:06 I'm telling you.
10:47:07 And so you have got to look at everything across the
10:47:09 board, everything.
10:47:12 What is it going to cost the city to implement that?
10:47:15 Now we talk about all these restrictions today, and who
10:47:19 is going to enforce it.
10:47:21 I will go on record -- and I don't know for sure but I
10:47:24 am willing to bet that none of these regulations are
10:47:28 being enforced.
10:47:29 >>MARY MULHERN: I wanted to say the fee -- and it
10:47:37 looks like maybe Ms. Cole was going to talk about it.
10:47:40 But I think that we don't have a community garden
10:47:44 category or permit right now.
10:47:46 That's why we are creating this, as Ms. Coyle said.
10:47:51 I think the reason people are looking at that fee is
10:47:53 because we are looking at creating making this a
10:47:56 special use 1 so they looked at what other special use
10:48:00 1 permits cost.
10:48:02 So that's where that assumption is coming from, I
10:48:04 But I think as you said, you are trying to work on
10:48:09 something where there wouldn't have to be this kind of
10:48:12 expensive fee, and also at this point what you are
10:48:20 talking about is similar to what you were talking about
10:48:22 for alcohol.
10:48:23 This would be an administrative review, and not a
10:48:25 public hearing.
10:48:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: That's correct.
10:48:28 >>MARY MULHERN: So that's another question we haven't
10:48:30 talked about yet.
10:48:31 I think when we finally get to that agenda item, that's
10:48:34 when we can talk about that, the public hearing
10:48:40 That is costly.
10:48:41 But we are talking about administrative.
10:48:46 And we have been working on this for three years, all
10:48:50 of us.
10:48:50 The gardeners, Ms. Coyle, Ms. Cole, myself.
10:48:55 So we are not just -- it's been really thought through,
10:48:59 and I think what we got today is great, and we are
10:49:02 really close to everyone -- the administration, legal,
10:49:07 and the gardeners being really happy with the
10:49:10 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Anything else on that?
10:49:13 So no action is required today.
10:49:15 Is that right?
10:49:18 >>CATHERINE COYLE: That's correct.
10:49:18 I will be back December 9th at 5:01 for the second
10:49:22 part of the workshop.
10:49:23 At the end of that language.
10:49:26 I would ask that you transmit as one batch as required
10:49:29 by code to the Planning Commission for recommendation.
10:49:33 I review with Planning Commission for recommendation.
10:49:35 We come back to you for two noticed public hearings on
10:49:38 whether or not to approve and adopt the language.
10:49:40 >> Now, the issues that were raise by the public today,
10:49:43 how will they be addressed between now and tonight?
10:49:50 >> I know some of the people who spoke so I will do my
10:49:52 best to contact them individually.
10:49:54 Some of the comments that were made I think were
10:49:56 potentially misunderstandings of some of the language
10:49:59 so I want to work with those people in particular on
10:50:01 what these regulations do. I also received several
10:50:03 e-mails from T.H.A.N. members that they had their
10:50:06 meeting last night and some additional e-mails from the
10:50:08 South Howard meeting that was held by councilman Capin.
10:50:12 I am going to try to contact those people individually
10:50:14 as well.
10:50:14 As I said I will make myself available to each of you
10:50:17 individually to go through any individual questions you
10:50:19 have over the next six weeks.
10:50:20 >> So you will be meeting with T.H.A.N. and their
10:50:24 representative, Mr. Rotella, raising issues about the
10:50:30 Republican national convention and other conventions
10:50:32 coming into the area.
10:50:33 >> I do plan to have another shot at public information
10:50:37 workshops prior to the December 9th meeting which I
10:50:39 hold here in the evenings so people can come after
10:50:42 work, and I will put everyone on notice of those.
10:50:45 >> Okay.
10:50:46 Thank you very much.
10:50:47 We'll move now to our next workshop.
10:50:55 We are behind schedule.
10:50:56 That is on number 5 to discuss, I guess, the community
10:50:59 gardens next cycle plan.
10:51:01 Have we done that?
10:51:02 That was included in that?
10:51:03 >>MARY MULHERN: We are done with that?
10:51:06 I thought we were going to get to that.
10:51:09 So --
10:51:12 >>THOMAS SCOTT: You have a question?
10:51:13 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
10:51:14 I want to again thank Ms. Coyle for all this work, and
10:51:20 I think we really have been working on this for a long
10:51:22 time, and it's really close, and when it comes back on
10:51:26 December 9th, hope we will be able to pass it.
10:51:30 It was brought up by many people what the big problem
10:51:33 is, the fee.
10:51:34 But I think that it shouldn't be prohibitive and this
10:51:39 is a not-for-profit endeavor, so we need to make that
10:51:47 The only other things that I'm hoping we can look at
10:51:50 between now and when this comes back, no one brought
10:51:55 this up, but I know we have talked about this -- I have
10:51:58 talked about this with Chip Fletcher, and I think with
10:52:01 Ms. Cole or Ms. Coyle, the fence height.
10:52:05 And I think that this is something that Councilwoman
10:52:12 Miller would be interested in looking at.
10:52:15 Most of these would probably be in residential
10:52:17 districts, or a lot of the gardens would be, probably
10:52:21 most of them, in empty lots, and right now, our fence
10:52:24 regulations in a lot of places are for like a
10:52:28 three-foot fence in a front yard.
10:52:31 So I would like to us look at how we can maybe make an
10:52:35 exception for the gardens, for the security of the
10:52:37 gardens, if there's some other criteria we could allow
10:52:42 taller fence.
10:52:44 So if we could do that.
10:52:46 I don't know what our options are with that.
10:52:50 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Well, if it's the council's policy
10:52:52 to set -- and there would be a provision written into
10:52:54 the standards.
10:52:55 >>MARY MULHERN: I think it would be something that
10:52:57 would be appreciated by the neighbors and by the garden
10:53:02 for their everyone's security and for the, you know,
10:53:07 the beauty of the neighborhood.
10:53:09 >> The allowable height is six feet in height and then
10:53:14 drops to three feet for solid fence and four feet for
10:53:17 transparent fence, like a chain link or picket fence.
10:53:20 >>MARY MULHERN: So if we could think about that, maybe
10:53:24 add a higher height in.
10:53:29 >>> I could bring that forward.
10:53:30 We'll see what the public comments are on that.
10:53:32 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
10:53:33 And then the other thing was what -- I think a couple
10:53:37 people brought up the prohibiting alcohol consumption.
10:53:43 I agree with Robin Milkowitz.
10:53:48 It's not really necessary considering we are talking
10:53:50 about a garden but I would think there would be concern
10:53:53 about sales.
10:53:54 So if we could change that from alcohol sales.
10:54:04 >> To consumption for sales?
10:54:06 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
10:54:07 I think those are the only outstanding things.
10:54:12 I think we have come really far on this.
10:54:14 And I think we need to keep in mind that this is a
10:54:16 positive thing, and it is something that makes
10:54:20 neighborhoods better, and we have seen that all over
10:54:22 the country.
10:54:24 The neighborhoods become safer.
10:54:26 The property values go up.
10:54:29 Community is built.
10:54:30 There's more eyes on the neighborhood.
10:54:31 There's more -- it's a win for everybody.
10:54:36 And I think it's a great thing and I hope we are going
10:54:41 to go forward with it.
10:54:42 This council will.
10:54:44 >> There again, data and information is very important.
10:54:49 We have data that shows that it's accurate what the
10:54:52 Councilwoman just said.
10:54:53 I haven't seen that data.
10:54:55 And I have been very supportive of community gardens.
10:54:59 >> I'll send it to you.
10:55:01 We have been talking about it for years and I could
10:55:03 send this back.
10:55:03 >> You do need the research on other communities,
10:55:06 garden programs around the country?
10:55:07 >> Well, to cut down on crime and all those things and
10:55:11 so forth and all that.
10:55:12 >> I have a lot of that research as well.
10:55:15 I have done a lot of different articles, and I can get
10:55:19 that to you as well.
10:55:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.
10:55:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: And the last time I checked, anything
10:55:29 that we approve, it does require four votes, is that
10:55:33 >> Yes.
10:55:34 >> I hear everybody got a plan.
10:55:38 But I tell you, I have to remind, it requires four
10:55:41 votes for anything to pass through the City Council.
10:55:48 >>MARY MULHERN: Let me ask then, do I need to make a
10:55:51 motion for you to make those changes?
10:55:55 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If you want the consensus at this
10:55:57 point, I would like to ask -- to bring back those
10:56:11 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If you want to make the change
10:56:13 that's fine.
10:56:13 >>MARY MULHERN: I think what we are asking for is you
10:56:17 bring back recommendations.
10:56:18 I'm not telling you exactly what to do.
10:56:22 I need your legal and planning on that?
10:56:25 >> Based on what I heard I was going to potentially
10:56:27 bring back two alternatives.
10:56:29 One, the current status quo language and then an option
10:56:31 for you really to weigh and vote on, when you are
10:56:35 transmitting to the Planning Commission.
10:56:36 >> So to reduce the fee, or to keep the fee --
10:56:43 >>THOMAS SCOTT: She said there's in a fee.
10:56:44 >> Currently.
10:56:45 There will be a fee.
10:56:49 They are going to establish a fee.
10:56:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: What I heard was $180 for
10:56:53 >> That's correct.
10:56:57 Our goal to bring forward is a $180 fee similar to a
10:57:00 home occupation special use.
10:57:02 We analyze the amount of time it will take to review
10:57:04 and it's very similar to be that particular
10:57:06 >>GWEN MILLER: But that's not in here.
10:57:11 >> It's a resolution issue.
10:57:15 >>MARY MULHERN: So we can address that separately?
10:57:18 >>> Yes.
10:57:19 If you wanted to approve it I would send through a
10:57:21 resolution adopting that particular fee.
10:57:23 I wouldn't send through the fee if the code isn't
10:57:25 >>MARY MULHERN: I would make that motion to do that
10:57:30 since I think we have consensus at least on that, on
10:57:33 the fee.
10:57:35 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Second.
10:57:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, what we said earlier was we
10:57:42 weren't going to take any action, you were going to
10:57:45 bring back to us additional information, right?
10:57:47 And December 9th we were going to take official
10:57:51 >>> Correct.
10:57:52 >>MARY MULHERN: So you are going to bring this back
10:57:54 without me making a motion?
10:57:55 That was my question whether we needed to ask council
10:57:58 to ask them to bring this back.
10:58:00 >>> This amendment is in the cycle.
10:58:03 I will be coming forward December 9th to bring
10:58:06 everything that you desired to transmit with or without
10:58:12 The community gardens in particular I heard the two
10:58:15 issues, one about the fence height in the front and the
10:58:18 other about alcohol sales versus alcohol consumption.
10:58:20 What I had planned to bring forward back to you is the
10:58:23 current language and then the option for both which you
10:58:25 can weigh in that next workshop and decide whether or
10:58:28 not you want to transmit the language at all, or
10:58:31 transmit the changes.
10:58:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I agree, Mr. Chairman, we can't set
10:58:36 fees, if there are fees to be set we don't know if it's
10:58:39 going to pass, number one.
10:58:40 Second, we don't know what the administration is going
10:58:42 to come with the actual cost.
10:58:44 So for us to set a fee and then that fee is either too
10:58:48 high or too low, sometimes a payer may get on both
10:58:53 sides either paying too high or the general public is
10:58:55 going to subsidize the fee, one of the two.
10:58:57 So let's just wait and see what happens and go one step
10:59:01 at a time.
10:59:01 I'm sure Ms. Coyle, when she comes on December 9th,
10:59:06 will have a fee schedule to what the administration
10:59:10 thinks that cost would be.
10:59:11 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Let's move to the next item.
10:59:18 The Tampa Heights neighborhood plan.
10:59:22 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Land development.
10:59:24 Me again.
10:59:24 I am here for the administration to give you an update.
10:59:30 I want to start with the comprehensive plan.
10:59:31 We do set a policy under the comprehensive plan that
10:59:34 mandates that by 2015 we can we complete three of the
10:59:38 community planning areas, moving forward with the
10:59:42 form-based code approach.
10:59:43 The first one Seminole Heights.
10:59:46 40th Street.
10:59:47 Tampa Heights, the third one, the subject of the
10:59:49 discussion today.
10:59:51 As you know, he just approved the plan amendments for
10:59:53 Seminole Heights, 40th Street is tonight, first reading
10:59:57 for that.
10:59:58 The code amendments are moving forward in this cycle
11:00:01 for Seminole Heights.
11:00:02 40th Street hopefully will begin, the workshops in
11:00:05 January to develop that code.
11:00:08 The goal is to have kick off Tampa Heights by fall of
11:00:13 next year.
11:00:13 Once we complete the code amendments for the other two.
11:00:16 We do also, I want to put out there, do have two
11:00:19 pending federal grants related to transit and
11:00:22 sustainability and land use that could, if those are
11:00:24 granted, to the City of Tampa, awarded to the City of
11:00:28 Tampa corks ramp up Tampa Heights sooner than fall of
11:00:31 next year, because they will attach pieces, components
11:00:37 of Tampa Heights where we can piggyback.
11:00:40 But given the work workload that we have, and where we
11:00:42 are in the process with the other two, we will not be
11:00:45 able to start that until fall of next year.
11:00:47 That's our goal.
11:00:49 And we are mandated as I said by the comprehensive plan
11:00:52 to have it completed by 2015.
11:00:54 So there is a deadline on these three particular areas.
11:01:00 I'm available for any questions.
11:01:02 >>GWEN MILLER: Any questions by council?
11:01:06 We are not required to take any action on this today,
11:01:08 is that right?
11:01:11 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I believe you just asked for a
11:01:12 report on it.
11:01:13 >>GWEN MILLER: And we'll take comments from the
11:01:16 >> My name is Vivian Salaga, 502 east Ross Avenue.
11:01:23 I am the president of the Tampa Heights civic
11:01:26 association stewardship committee, the purpose of which
11:01:31 committee is to educate and follow the development and
11:01:41 the application and implementation of the neighborhood
11:01:45 plan which was adopted by this council some time ago.
11:01:55 Last week we e-mailed a copy of that plan so you would
11:01:58 have it to refresh your memory.
11:01:59 Many of you were not on the council at the time that
11:02:01 was adopted.
11:02:02 And on the -- if I could, I have a simple copy of the
11:02:16 Is this right side up?
11:02:18 And the reason that -- several things that we want to
11:02:23 emphasize and ask as the plan is being reviewed over
11:02:26 time, as it particularly relates to the introduction of
11:02:32 high speed and local rail into the City of Tampa.
11:02:37 On this plan, you can see that the rail station that is
11:02:40 proposed for the city both high speed and light rail
11:02:45 comes to the Tampa Heights, the south end of the Tampa
11:02:48 Heights neighborhood, specifically in this area.
11:02:51 We are the only neighborhood that -- residential
11:02:54 neighborhood that is absolutely so directly impacted.
11:02:58 And as that rail system comes across I-4, and down
11:03:03 through this eastern edge of the neighborhood, we are
11:03:06 going to see a lot of serious construction, a lot of
11:03:10 pilings, a lot of work going on in that neighborhood.
11:03:14 And what we would ask the council to consider are three
11:03:20 First, we would like to have you again authorize the
11:03:25 Planning Commission to work with our neighborhood to
11:03:28 discuss the implications of this rail construction in
11:03:34 the neighborhood and its impact on the neighborhood
11:03:37 with respect to many things.
11:03:39 And it will be residential density development.
11:03:42 It will be traffic considerations.
11:03:44 It will be parking considerations.
11:03:47 And then to authorize the -- the city is in the process
11:03:52 of discussing their contract with Wilson Miller Stantec
11:04:00 who are the consultants who will be doing the
11:04:02 recommendations of the surrounding development criteria
11:04:07 in and around the rail station, and to ask them to have
11:04:11 carefully work with our neighborhood and the
11:04:15 considerations of that we need to address for the
11:04:18 neighborhood, and thirdly, presently, the CRA district
11:04:25 that exists in Tampa Heights is in this corner along
11:04:27 the river specifically only for the Heights development
11:04:32 and for future consideration we would like to consider
11:04:35 the expansion of that CRA district to the two
11:04:38 commercial corridors, this area that runs between Tampa
11:04:43 and Florida avenues, Tampa street and Florida avenues,
11:04:48 is the primary commercial corridor in our neighborhood
11:04:52 And in order for the development that was not
11:04:55 anticipated at the time that the plan was adopted,
11:04:59 because of the rail now, we would like to have that
11:05:03 taken under consideration.
11:05:05 Thank you.
11:05:06 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:05:06 Next speaker.
11:05:07 Anyone else?
11:05:08 >> My name is lily Young-Green, 3406 north EVEN Avenue.
11:05:20 I want you to know how much we appreciate you taking
11:05:23 time this morning to have a review of our neighborhood
11:05:26 We worked for several years to be -- to actually become
11:05:30 the first neighborhood to have a neighborhood plan.
11:05:33 And as so many things are happening right now, with so
11:05:38 many moving parts, especially in the transportation
11:05:40 area, it's very important that now we consider the
11:05:45 impact of those on our neighborhood, not that we expect
11:05:48 it will be all negative.
11:05:50 We do see a lot of positive impact to the neighborhood.
11:05:55 We started central Tampa neighborhood effort to talk
11:05:59 about our walkability, bikability area, and have had a
11:06:04 couple of meetings that were very, very well attended.
11:06:07 And so residents are very interested in what happens,
11:06:11 how we make our communities sustainable, how we ensure
11:06:15 that we continue to have three neighborhoods supported
11:06:20 by community gardens.
11:06:21 And other efforts within our neighborhood.
11:06:24 So thank you one more time to have this hearing.
11:06:30 We want to ask that as we do our form-based zoning that
11:06:35 although that deadline is 2016, that we get to work
11:06:40 through that way faster than that length of time.
11:06:43 I think Seminole Heights took two and a half years.
11:06:47 We hope that we can get through a little bit faster.
11:06:50 Thank you again.
11:06:51 >> Anyone else?
11:07:00 Then that will conclude that workshop.
11:07:02 No action needs to be taken at this time.
11:07:06 Then our final workshop for this morning is on the
11:07:13 panhandling ordinance, item 7.
11:07:23 Who is going to bring that forward?
11:07:25 Councilman Caetano?
11:07:27 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: First of all, I would like to
11:07:30 acknowledge that chief Bennett is here and the acting
11:07:33 county administrator Mr. Mike Merrill.
11:07:36 And I want to thank Mr. Fletcher for doing all the work
11:07:39 on this and my aide.
11:07:42 Everyone has a package here, he was here till about
11:07:45 11:30 last night and called me to go over it.
11:07:48 The this is a very serious issue in our streets.
11:07:52 People almost getting hit, and we don't need that
11:07:56 before somebody gets killed.
11:07:57 I received many calls and e-mails from citizens about
11:07:59 this issue where people say they almost got hit or they
11:08:04 almost got hit by another car.
11:08:05 And we need to do something about this because it's a
11:08:08 serious situation.
11:08:12 We have had six bicycle people killed, and one of them
11:08:14 was on the sidewalk where a car went onto the sidewalk
11:08:18 and killed this person.
11:08:19 So we need to take a handle on this, because it's very
11:08:26 Recently, St. Augustine adopted an ordinance, and there
11:08:30 was a blog on the computer, and telling them to come to
11:08:36 And from what I hear, across the bay, they say they are
11:08:40 not coming to Tampa, but they are.
11:08:42 I don't know where all these people are coming from.
11:08:45 But we need to definitely get a handle on it and do
11:08:48 something about in this workshop.
11:08:51 Thank you.
11:08:51 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Rebecca Kert, I guess you will be
11:08:57 making a presentation, is that right?
11:08:58 >>REBECCA KERT: I'm happy to.
11:09:04 City Council, as you will recall, approximately a year
11:09:07 or so ago, City Council amended your solicitation in
11:09:10 the right-of-way regulation.
11:09:12 Prior to that, we had a permitting discussed and as I
11:09:16 made you aware at that time because there's a conflict
11:09:19 with state law, and the Constitution at this point as
11:09:22 we are told by the federal court, that you either
11:09:26 needed to allow it or to ban it.
11:09:30 And what City Council attempted to do at that time was
11:09:33 to recognize that there's an inherent safety issue when
11:09:36 you have pedestrians and vehicles, and who attempt to
11:09:40 place some safety restrictions, but still allow the
11:09:46 And that has been in effect for a certain amount of
11:09:50 I previously provided you with other regulations from
11:09:54 the surrounding areas, and I would like to briefly
11:09:56 touch on how those different ones work.
11:10:00 St. Pete recently enacted their ban on what they call
11:10:03 street vending.
11:10:05 It applies on interstate, arterial and collector roads
11:10:10 They define street vending as soliciting sales or
11:10:14 exchanges or distribute distributing products or
11:10:17 material to the occupant of a motor vehicle.
11:10:19 So the St. Pete ordinance first of all only applies on
11:10:22 the interstate arterial and collector roadways, and
11:10:26 only deals with transactions with a motor vehicle.
11:10:31 Hillsborough County has had -- one more thing about the
11:10:35 St. Pete one.
11:10:35 They were sued by the "St. Pete Times," and they got a
11:10:40 ruling in their favor.
11:10:42 St. Pete got a ruling in the city's favor on a motion
11:10:44 for preliminary injunction at that time.
11:10:48 That case has been dismissed.
11:10:50 Hillsborough County has had an ordinance on their books
11:10:52 since the 1990s.
11:10:54 That ordinance only applies on county roads so it
11:10:57 doesn't apply on state roads, and it doesn't apply on
11:11:00 any other roads.
11:11:03 That one is a little more expansive than the St. Pete
11:11:07 It not only deals with the distributing or soliciting
11:11:10 from the occupant of a motor vehicle, it actually
11:11:12 prohibits displaying advertising on a road, and a road
11:11:16 is defined as a street, shoulder, road, median, and all
11:11:20 other lanes of travel.
11:11:22 So the major difference in that is that it prohibits
11:11:25 displaying advertising including on the median,
11:11:27 et cetera, which would deal with -- well, you also have
11:11:34 Temple Terrace which has a ban on solicitation and
11:11:38 dissemination of information and advertising,
11:11:41 including -- and they expressly say in this case car
11:11:44 washes and charitable fund-raisers on the public
11:11:47 rights-of-way, roadways and streets.
11:11:50 Plant City has a ban on solicitation when directed at a
11:11:53 motor vehicle that is trafficked or stopped at a public
11:11:57 street and that solicitation may be spoken or written
11:12:00 by any other means of communication.
11:12:02 So those are examples of the surrounding jurisdictions.
11:12:05 At this time I would like to have chief Bennett to come
11:12:07 up and make some comments about our current status.
11:12:09 >> Chief Bennett.
11:12:16 Welcome, sir.
11:12:17 >> Good morning, council.
11:12:19 Thank you for allowing the Tampa Police Department to
11:12:21 weigh in on this important issue.
11:12:27 Quite simply it comes down to public safety, from north
11:12:31 Tampa all the way to South Tampa, from our vantage
11:12:36 In the model that we police for the last eight years
11:12:40 and currently under Chief Castor we looked at the
11:12:43 preventive agency and we do that with crime reduction
11:12:46 as well as traffic safety and overall public safety.
11:12:50 And I think when you look at what's been going on in
11:12:53 Tampa, as one of the disparates, it becomes a challenge
11:12:57 for us to see the intersections with the motoring
11:13:02 community trying to work around and navigate around
11:13:05 folks that are traversing several lanes, to have a
11:13:08 person to door or window exchange, and what our fear is
11:13:13 in our preventive mind is this is going to escalate to
11:13:16 a point that we do see pedestrian injuries and/or
11:13:20 fatalities, and possibly one that's going to go out of
11:13:23 frustration at the motoring community.
11:13:25 And because we have been so fortunate with our
11:13:27 preventive mind that we are afraid that this is where
11:13:31 this might go.
11:13:32 For the last three years, we have trended down in our
11:13:36 pedestrian fatalities and we have been trending down
11:13:40 pedestrian injuries as they relate to traffic crashes.
11:13:43 And we want to keep that trend going that way.
11:13:47 We actually are working with a grant right now, and the
11:13:50 grant is positioned in Hillsborough County to work on
11:13:52 pedestrian safety through awareness and education.
11:13:55 One of the examples I think that I can do to illustrate
11:13:57 this -- and I have a fair background in working with
11:14:00 special event process -- is that when you see or you
11:14:04 have read about a DUI check point, we have officers who
11:14:07 are trained to work on foot around the motoring public.
11:14:10 We have a maintenance traffic plan that's stamped by an
11:14:14 engineer for approval to work in around the motoring
11:14:17 community while you are on foot.
11:14:18 We have the proper safety equipment.
11:14:19 We have lights displayed.
11:14:21 We channel people off the roadway to have that
11:14:24 And these are all trained folks.
11:14:26 What we have here is an untrained person that's
11:14:29 traversing the intersection without a maintenance or
11:14:32 traffic plan, and again having this hand to window
11:14:38 exchange, again compromising the flow of traffic and
11:14:40 becoming a challenge.
11:14:42 That's essentially our concern, is the overall public
11:14:46 I drive north Tampa, central Tampa, South Tampa each
11:14:49 week in my position.
11:14:52 I see the field for what it is and not from the office.
11:14:55 And I have seen an increase.
11:14:57 The complaints that have come to the police department
11:15:01 in the disparate ordinances in the region, that come
11:15:05 into our chief's office, they come directly to the
11:15:08 I have fielded some of these complaints.
11:15:10 And I can see an escalation in the complaints from not
11:15:13 just one of frustration, because the citizen may or may
11:15:15 not like that interaction, but now they are coming in,
11:15:20 they are saying that the solicitation and the
11:15:22 right-of-way is becoming more assertive, bordering
11:15:26 aggressive, and our fear is there may be an incident,
11:15:28 even beyond just striking somebody with a motor
11:15:32 There may be an incident of somebody that has the
11:15:34 perception that they have to protect themselves,
11:15:36 because of this a certification and this aggression
11:15:39 that may be going on in the intersection.
11:15:41 So we want to shall in that preventive mind-set.
11:15:43 That's been our mantra for a long time in crime
11:15:47 reduction and public safety as it pertains to
11:15:49 pedestrian motor vehicle traffic.
11:15:51 We go through great lengths with the transportation
11:15:54 division to reinforce the model of education
11:15:57 enforcement and engineering.
11:15:59 We have done this many times over for different
11:16:03 Whether it's a special event or not.
11:16:04 And it all centers around a good design.
11:16:07 The ability to enforce a clean street, so the motorist
11:16:10 can move, the pedicyclist and with laws at crosswalks
11:16:22 and such.
11:16:23 Again I come back to the safety concern that
11:16:24 statistically just maybe on the threshold of getting to
11:16:27 what we are worried about, however, again, we do live
11:16:30 with a preventive mind at the Tampa Police Department,
11:16:32 and that's what we are looking forward to.
11:16:34 Thank you.
11:16:34 >> Any questions?
11:16:42 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Chief, I understand that the danger
11:16:47 comes in the transaction.
11:16:51 >> Potentially.
11:16:53 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Potentially, the danger comes in the
11:16:57 Is that what I understood from you?
11:16:59 >>> Right.
11:17:00 From several aspects, yes.
11:17:02 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay.
11:17:06 The other thing is, here is a question.
11:17:08 If someone is standing out there, like I have seen with
11:17:13 a sandwich board people, where they are --
11:17:16 >> Advertising?
11:17:17 >> Advertising.
11:17:18 >>> There's in a transaction.
11:17:22 They are typically not in the right-of-way either.
11:17:24 They are on the side of the road trying to lure you
11:17:26 into a business who has legal parking.
11:17:29 >> And the right-of-way would be the median?
11:17:33 >> Anywhere the motor vehicle has access to move, and
11:17:36 including a little bit of the green space up to the
11:17:38 sidewalks, typically.
11:17:39 >> Okay.
11:17:40 Thank you.
11:17:41 >>> And that's general.
11:17:42 Transportation can give you a more legal description.
11:17:44 But generally where the vehicles are allowed to flow.
11:17:48 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I appreciate that.
11:17:49 Thank you very much.
11:17:49 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Chief, I have a question.
11:17:53 That would be solicitation, whether it's a business
11:17:55 trying to lure somebody off the street into a business,
11:17:58 but we have them out there soliciting that they want
11:18:02 They have a big board.
11:18:04 I don't drink.
11:18:05 I don't smoke.
11:18:06 I don't do drugs.
11:18:07 I need help.
11:18:09 That's solicitation.
11:18:10 It's a distraction.
11:18:12 And both of them are distractions, even the one that's
11:18:15 trying to lure somebody into a business is a
11:18:17 >> There's a myriad of reasons people would be in the
11:18:21 right-of-way trying to get the motorist to basically
11:18:23 interact with them, whether it's visual, and the city
11:18:26 goes to great lengths to make sure signage is
11:18:29 appropriate so there are in a distractions so you can
11:18:33 drive safely.
11:18:34 That's what our concern is.
11:18:35 >> Thank you.
11:18:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Chairman, what is the right-of-way?
11:18:41 In some places it's difficult to define.
11:18:43 But in most places, it's the distance between the
11:18:46 street and the electric poles.
11:18:49 That area there or residential area, when you go to ask
11:18:54 for a permit to extend your property, for a garage, or
11:18:58 parking purposes or whatever you want to do, you have
11:19:02 got to have a setback requirement.
11:19:05 And usually when you look at the distance from the
11:19:09 property line of your extension of the property to the
11:19:13 telephone pole, that gives you a pretty good idea if it
11:19:16 falls within the parameters allowable by law.
11:19:19 So if somebody has a sign that says, 4.99 or whatever
11:19:28 it is, inside the right-of-way, I don't think there's
11:19:33 much you can do.
11:19:34 However, if it's on the other side, then I think there
11:19:38 is something you can do.
11:19:40 So these are the things that I think have to be
11:19:42 discussed thoroughly in order to come up with some type
11:19:46 of resolution.
11:19:47 Thank you.
11:19:48 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We have the director, administrator of
11:19:59 Hillsborough County, Mike Miller.
11:20:01 We'll recognize him.
11:20:02 I know the county commission worked on the issue.
11:20:04 Do you want to come forward and address council?
11:20:08 Interim county administrator.
11:20:10 I know Hillsborough County commission worked on this I
11:20:12 believe last week.
11:20:13 So they were trying to work with all three
11:20:16 municipalities to come up with something that's
11:20:19 I also know already there's an ordinance on the book
11:20:23 for the counties for no solicitation.
11:20:25 So that's been in place when I was on the county
11:20:29 >> Chairman Scott, council members, thank you for
11:20:34 inviting me over.
11:20:36 Councilman Caetano.
11:20:38 Yes, the county commission a couple of months ago
11:20:43 directed me to convene a group that consisted of a
11:20:48 cross section of the community to discuss and hopefully
11:20:53 bring forward recommendations to deal with this issue.
11:21:01 As has been stated very clearly there are already
11:21:03 ordinances in place for whatever reason, and that's the
11:21:06 purpose of the committee is to find out why it may not
11:21:08 be working the way they were intended to.
11:21:10 The committee has met once in September.
11:21:15 The city is represented on this committee, councilman
11:21:18 Caetano, chief Benson, Chip Fletcher and his group,
11:21:23 city of Temple Terrace, of course the county, homeless
11:21:26 coalition, and I'm sure that I'm missing someone, but
11:21:31 it's AP very good cross section of the community.
11:21:36 We have another meeting planned for November.
11:21:39 I don't know exactly the date.
11:21:41 But I don't really have anything to add to what chief
11:21:46 Benson said.
11:21:47 You think he characterized it very well.
11:21:49 The committee agrees on a couple of important things.
11:21:51 One, the primary concern is public safety.
11:21:53 And I'm sure if the sheriff's office were here they
11:21:57 would echo the chief's comments.
11:21:59 And the second is that the best thing we can do is find
11:22:02 a comprehensive ordinance, a comprehensive way to deal
11:22:05 with this across the community, because people just end
11:22:08 up bouncing back and forth between jurisdictional
11:22:11 alliance lines.
11:22:12 We are also going to engage other communities.
11:22:15 We are going to have someone from St. Pete come over
11:22:17 and talk about the success that they have had, the
11:22:20 challenges with their ordinance, Pasco, Manatee,
11:22:23 because what happens is that whatever, in this case,
11:22:27 whatever other communities do, we effect each other,
11:22:30 because these individuals can be transient, and the
11:22:34 problem just moves around.
11:22:38 So as I said, we also have representation of the
11:22:40 homeless coalition on the committee.
11:22:46 And public safety is the key component.
11:22:48 But we wanted to have that representation as well,
11:22:51 because we need to understand better what's the driver,
11:22:55 what's the problem, what's the real issue, so that when
11:22:58 we come up with solutions, hopefully it will stick, it
11:23:02 will work, and we won't have to do this again.
11:23:05 So I would be happy to answer any questions.
11:23:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, just one question.
11:23:11 I'll talk about a couple other things later.
11:23:13 On the county books already is an ordinance of no
11:23:16 >>> Yes.
11:23:17 >>THOMAS SCOTT: How do you plan to strengthen that if
11:23:21 it's already no solicitation.
11:23:24 So how do you plan to strengthen that?
11:23:27 >>> That is the question.
11:23:29 And I don't have the answer.
11:23:31 We already are enforcing it.
11:23:34 The sheriff's office is enforcing it.
11:23:36 But clearly, you know, throughout the county, the
11:23:39 problem is not going away.
11:23:41 And I think part of it is really, as I said, trying to
11:23:44 understand what is the real driver?
11:23:47 What's the problem we are trying to solve before we
11:23:50 come up with a way to solve it?
11:23:52 And I think TPD and the sheriff's office are doing
11:23:56 everything they can.
11:23:57 And understanding what the cause is, or the problem is,
11:24:04 will help lead you to a solution.
11:24:06 And I'm sure we can get there.
11:24:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Well, I can talk about the costs later
11:24:13 on and hear from the public, but I think we all know
11:24:17 what the cause is.
11:24:25 >> My name is Sue Lyon.
11:24:27 And this time I'm speaking for T.H.A.N.
11:24:32 We met last night.
11:24:34 And they requested that I come to council and ask that
11:24:39 you all pass an emergency ban on solicitation on the
11:24:45 right-of-way due to the health and safety of the people
11:24:49 on the streets, whether they be the homeless, whether
11:24:54 they be solicitors or whether they be the drivers.
11:24:56 It's a very dangerous situation and it escalated
11:25:01 extremely exponentially since St. Pete passed their law
11:25:08 St. Pete passed and withstood a court challenge, and we
11:25:12 believe if you pass that or something similar, that it
11:25:17 will stand the court challenge.
11:25:19 And right now it's getting really dangerous out there.
11:25:21 I work with the homeless people through my church, and
11:25:24 even the homeless people don't approve of this, because
11:25:27 they go out there, and if they step in somebody else's
11:25:31 corner they get beat up.
11:25:32 It's not a healthy place out there.
11:25:34 So we are not against homeless.
11:25:36 We have tried to protect them as much as we can.
11:25:39 Thank you very much.
11:25:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:25:42 Next speaker.
11:25:42 >> Martha Jean Lorenzo, east Cleveland street in Tampa.
11:25:52 I'm also a representative of T.H.A.N., but I'm speaking
11:25:56 to you on behalf of my neighborhood as the
11:25:58 vice-president of Bon Air, and of course you remember
11:26:02 we are right there at Dale Mabry and Kennedy, which is
11:26:06 supposedly the busiest intersection in that area.
11:26:09 I think many of them compete for number one.
11:26:13 And originally, I didn't have negative feelings about
11:26:17 this situation, but I want to tell you something that's
11:26:21 very personal.
11:26:22 If you all have not done yet, contribute something,
11:26:26 make the attempt to do this, to roll your window down,
11:26:30 and donate something.
11:26:32 And I can tell you, it's a really difficult experience.
11:26:38 You want to give something.
11:26:39 You stop your car.
11:26:40 You are at a red light.
11:26:42 You are fumbling in your purse trying to get money,
11:26:46 some decent amount to contribute, to donate.
11:26:50 The window goes down.
11:26:51 People are honking behind you.
11:26:53 And I could just as easily step on my accelerator, even
11:26:57 though my foot is on the brake.
11:26:59 And it is a very frustrating experience to try to do a
11:27:05 nice -- a nice thing for those in need.
11:27:08 So I have changed my mind completely.
11:27:13 I think it's a lot of accidents are going to happen.
11:27:16 And I don't think it matters the age of you when you
11:27:18 are behind that wheel.
11:27:21 When you have people honking and they are angry and
11:27:23 they are using gestures at you that are really uncouth,
11:27:29 it makes for a real serious situation.
11:27:34 I have great sympathy, empathy for the people, the
11:27:38 firemen who collect money.
11:27:39 I realize it will be a clean slate, and in a one can do
11:27:43 any of that.
11:27:43 But I think they have to revisit their way of
11:27:46 collecting donations.
11:27:49 I think there are smart enough people out there, that a
11:27:52 lot of things can be reconfigured and be successful.
11:27:55 I also, you know, in my neighborhood, we have the safe
11:27:59 cafe right there that serve it is homeless.
11:28:02 And that's been a huge bone of contention, personally
11:28:07 not with me.
11:28:08 And I don't understand.
11:28:09 I think it's very simple.
11:28:11 Other neighborhoods can go ahead and try to establish
11:28:13 that sort of a situation.
11:28:15 I think there's just a lot of good minds that can come
11:28:23 together and figure out a way to help these people
11:28:25 without putting anybody else at risk.
11:28:27 Thank you.
11:28:27 >> Spencer Kass, 10001 North Howard Avenue, also here
11:28:39 to represent T.H.A.N.
11:28:40 Than is -- T.H.A.N. is asking me today that you pass an
11:28:44 emergency ordinance.
11:28:45 We appreciate the work of the county.
11:28:47 We appreciate the work of staff.
11:28:48 We want this today.
11:28:50 Not tomorrow.
11:28:51 Not in six months.
11:28:52 And when you get around to it -- today.
11:28:56 If the county wants to work on things in the meantime
11:28:59 by all means, fine.
11:29:00 But we can ban it today and then work on a solution, if
11:29:02 you want to lighten it up.
11:29:04 When you originally passed an ordinance to allow the
11:29:06 on-street solicitation there were two people, who came
11:29:11 down here and warned you this is what was going to
11:29:14 We were ignored.
11:29:14 When you say, why is the county ban not working in the
11:29:18 You don't have the ban.
11:29:19 Legal told you.
11:29:20 You decided you don't want a complete ban.
11:29:22 You decided you want people in vests standing out
11:29:23 there. It's dangerous.
11:29:26 It's extremely dangerous.
11:29:28 I have had people come to me, and they are getting more
11:29:30 and more aggressive.
11:29:31 I have nothing but sympathy.
11:29:33 I donate to charities.
11:29:35 This can be handled in other ways.
11:29:36 If we are concerned about the jobs, council can
11:29:40 reallocate money that you used for raises or Avenue of
11:29:43 the arts and you can employ people at minimum wage and
11:29:47 give them jobs if that's your primary concern.
11:29:49 But today we need help.
11:29:50 Today we are asking for an emergency ordinance.
11:29:51 If you won't do it today, in two weeks, let the legal
11:29:55 department come back here with an ordinance banning it.
11:29:58 We know the St. Pete ordinance is legal.
11:30:00 It's been upheld in court.
11:30:02 There's no reason not to do it.
11:30:04 That's what the neighborhoods are requesting today.
11:30:06 We are asking for your help today.
11:30:08 We lived with this long enough.
11:30:09 Thank you.
11:30:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Next speaker.
11:30:12 >> Sally Long, 6507 north 33rd street.
11:30:19 I'm a native Tampa person.
11:30:21 And in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King I am
11:30:24 I have a right to earn a living. And I would have
11:30:28 never thought that people who sell Sunday morning
11:30:30 newspapers, we couldn't serve at a job. As a college
11:30:32 graduate from Florida A&M university, I never thought
11:30:35 in the words of my father that I would be taking this
11:30:38 $30,000 college degree that he paid for and I would be
11:30:44 now selling papers.
11:30:45 But for there go I.
11:30:47 To punish us and to say ban it immediately, without
11:30:50 providing statistics to support what people on Sundays,
11:30:55 we are there one day a week, we are there during the
11:30:57 daylight hours, we have taken steps to conform to
11:31:05 We wear these lime green shirts that people can see us
11:31:08 And we are adults and we conform by the law.
11:31:11 We wait till the red lights -- I challenge the council,
11:31:14 come out on Sunday, come to my corner, Hillsborough and
11:31:17 22nd street, and see how many -- how many customers, of
11:31:23 customers that I have, that come to our corner to buy.
11:31:27 We are not -- I'm not asking for a handout.
11:31:29 I don't want anybody's sympathy.
11:31:32 I am capable of earning a living.
11:31:33 But to go and ban it, you do not realize how many more
11:31:37 people you will be put on unemployment line.
11:31:40 We already have so many people there.
11:31:42 Let's work together and continue to work together to
11:31:46 resolve it, and say stop it when they are not
11:31:50 statistics, showing how many accidents we as Sunday
11:31:55 newspaper vendors are causing.
11:32:01 It's reacting to fare P.as the chief said for three
11:32:03 years, the statistics show that the accident fatality
11:32:06 are low.
11:32:07 I challenge, show me how many accidents are so much a
11:32:12 bicyclist got hit.
11:32:13 That's when a driver hit a bicyclist.
11:32:16 That is not somebody on Sunday selling a newspaper.
11:32:19 We are not running out to anyone aggressively.
11:32:22 We have customers that honk their horn, that we know we
11:32:27 have been there for so long, that we know -- if a red
11:32:32 light is turned to green, our customers are courteous
11:32:36 and so loyal they will pull oaf to the side to AP Scott
11:32:42 or pop eyes and we will go over to get it.
11:32:46 I have officers that purchased papers from us.
11:32:47 I have officers that have been in support of us, the
11:32:50 City of Tampa.
11:32:51 And I am just saying that to think that it's coming out
11:32:56 of fare, just stop it, doesn't make it right.
11:32:59 You have two choices.
11:33:00 I understand about the -- we distinguish ourselves from
11:33:06 And you have to give or you go by it.
11:33:09 The little amount of people, as large as our community
11:33:13 is, the amount of people is minimal to how large the
11:33:18 community is.
11:33:19 And I don't really see a big outpour of the community
11:33:22 here that would have enough parking to say stop it.
11:33:28 I challenge you come out.
11:33:31 Come this Sunday to my corner and see how -- and what
11:33:36 an opportunity that I have as a sing mull to continue
11:33:40 to provide for my family and not be on the system and
11:33:43 still have some dignity for myself.
11:33:45 I never thought that I would be out there.
11:33:47 >> Thank you very much.
11:33:48 Next speaker.
11:33:48 >> My name is Ann Cuett, here as a representative of
11:33:58 Westshore lines, a business organization that
11:33:59 represents the Westshore district.
11:34:01 We have nearly 400 member companies.
11:34:03 About three weeks to go in our September board meeting.
11:34:07 Our Board of Directors basically unanimously passed the
11:34:10 motion and asked us to come here today and ask you to
11:34:12 please do something to curtail solicitation in the
11:34:16 We wholeheartedly agree with the police department.
11:34:19 It has become a serious public safety issue.
11:34:23 They are on every single corner in Westshore.
11:34:26 Your comment about the county banning and Ms. Kert's
11:34:31 presentation that really only applies to county roads.
11:34:33 Many of the major roads in Westshore, Kennedy, Boy
11:34:36 Scout, Dale Mabry, Courtney Campbell causeway, memorial
11:34:40 highway, they are all state roads.
11:34:42 So even if that ordinance was applied in the city, they
11:34:46 don't apply to state roads.
11:34:48 So you have -- in many of those state roads are eight
11:34:51 to ten lanes of traffic.
11:34:57 Double turn lanes.
11:34:58 It's really become a dangerous situation.
11:35:00 We have gotten a lot of comments from our member
11:35:02 organizations and non-member organizations asking that
11:35:04 the city police do something to stop it.
11:35:07 Thank you very much.
11:35:12 >> Good morning, council.
11:35:14 Dan Woodward, 3111 west Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
11:35:18 Boulevard, 33607.
11:35:20 I'm here to ask you to please do something about the
11:35:23 current situation of solicitation in every intersection
11:35:27 in the Westshore district, which we are a member as
11:35:31 I think first and foremost this is a safety issue.
11:35:34 We have seen numerous examples of folks in the medians,
11:35:39 while dual and triple left-hand turn lanes are being
11:35:43 I've seen a poor gentleman out there in a wheelchair,
11:35:48 on a median.
11:35:48 It's clearly not set up for pedestrian access, much
11:35:52 less handicapped access.
11:35:53 I understand there immediate need not -- may or may not
11:35:58 be statistics supporting accidents but I think we are
11:36:01 looking at a situation where this is simply an accident
11:36:03 waiting to happen.
11:36:04 So I would urge you to do something about this as
11:36:10 quickly as possible.
11:36:11 >> Dan Driscoll.
11:36:15 I'm an independent contractor with the St. Petersburg
11:36:18 Myself and a partner of mile-per-hour employ over 180
11:36:21 people on Sunday mornings to solicit to sell newspapers
11:36:24 for the surrounding city of Tampa Bay.
11:36:26 I believe what's going on with the panhandling, I
11:36:29 couldn't agree more with the increase and all of a
11:36:31 sudden has made the issue arose to where it is today,
11:36:36 people popping up on ever corner who aren't providing a
11:36:39 service for the pedestrians and whatnot.
11:36:41 What I would like to say from our standpoint, the
11:36:44 reason I feel we are part of the solution with today's
11:36:46 economy, we are employing people, and ware not asking
11:36:49 them to commit crimes.
11:36:51 We are providing a job, a service to get out there and
11:36:53 earn honest money on a weekly basis.
11:36:56 On Sunday we operate from 7 a.m. approximately to 3
11:36:59 There is no labor pools for these people to go to.
11:37:02 Some of my people have been with me.
11:37:04 In five years I have had zero fatalities with the
11:37:07 newspaper industry.
11:37:09 I do understand that people drive up on the sidewalk,
11:37:12 and I heard earlier in this seminar or session today
11:37:15 that someone drove up on a sidewalk but I also heard
11:37:19 that DUIs, I'm assume that person was drunk that ran
11:37:24 off the road and killed a bicyclist.
11:37:25 There are many things that I feel today that we want to
11:37:28 work with the city.
11:37:29 As many police, Tampa's finest that I have exchanged my
11:37:32 phone number with since we were here a year ago, tack
11:37:36 our safety shirts off.
11:37:39 If I just get a vest I can stand out there, I have a
11:37:41 full-time job.
11:37:42 I believe we should have kept the shirts on.
11:37:44 I think it was a mistake.
11:37:45 The shirt identified you as a newspaper salesperson,
11:37:48 not as a panhandler.
11:37:49 And I think, unfortunately, the panhandling has
11:37:52 increased so much that it's brought us here today.
11:37:54 And I couldn't agree more.
11:37:56 I have spoken to Congressman Caetano on a personal
11:37:59 basis in his office and I want to work with the city.
11:38:01 However, this is my livelihood.
11:38:03 This is 180 families.
11:38:05 And that's just for the "St. Pete Times."
11:38:07 That doesn't speak on the "The Tampa Tribune's"
11:38:09 I am talking well to 500, 600 people this would affect.
11:38:14 I believe since we have been here a year ago we have
11:38:16 done everything in our power to abide by the changes
11:38:19 and we are still willing to abide.
11:38:20 Maybe there's a permit fee and I know you can't paint
11:38:22 everybody with the same brush.
11:38:24 But that I mean if you do one you have to do all.
11:38:27 Hold all.
11:38:27 I believe thereof must be something we can do to apply
11:38:30 for the hours of Sunday between X and Y that you know
11:38:32 we are out there.
11:38:33 We have exchanged numbers we've the police.
11:38:37 We have done everything in our power to work with them.
11:38:39 I think we are dock our best to control the situation.
11:38:44 The effect it will have on the newspaper circulation,
11:38:47 on my personal livelihood, my people's livelihoods, is
11:38:49 a great consideration that I would like to ask that you
11:38:51 keep that in mind in making these decisions.
11:38:54 Again, we want to work with the city, not against the
11:38:57 And I understand as residents of the city, I don't want
11:39:00 panhandlers on every corner either but we are providing
11:39:03 a service between 7 and 3, and I believe that together,
11:39:06 collectively, we can put something in place either for
11:39:10 the firefighters, for the people that are providing a
11:39:12 service, not for the panel handlers on the street.
11:39:14 I know the police are doing their very best to do so.
11:39:17 But again, we want to work with the city.
11:39:18 I just want to you please consider this very seriously
11:39:22 how many lives this will effect in todays economy.
11:39:25 Thank you very much for your time.
11:39:33 >> Good morning, council.
11:39:37 Darrin Kenny with the times.
11:39:39 You have just heard some compelling testimony from
11:39:41 several folks who provide a valuable service to the
11:39:45 Thousands of people, thousands of residents, thousands
11:39:50 of registered voters, depend on picking up their
11:39:56 newspaper from folks like this on Sundays, not only for
11:39:59 the news and information that our industry provides,
11:40:02 but also for the valuable coupons that are in Sunday's
11:40:11 We have spoken earlier where we all got together and
11:40:14 work out an equitable solution to a problem that was
11:40:19 within the city.
11:40:20 I believe that this was an excellent example of big
11:40:24 government, the community, and local businesses coming
11:40:27 together and working through a problem and coming up
11:40:31 with a solution that everybody was happy with.
11:40:37 There's some good language in that ordinance that makes
11:40:42 And I would like the to respectfully make the
11:40:44 suggestion today that we take that ordinance and go to
11:40:49 the Board of County Commissioners panhandling committee
11:40:52 which will convene sometime in November which ware
11:40:55 actively taking part in and taking a look at the
11:40:58 language and seeing if we can adopt some of that into a
11:41:02 panhandling ordinance that would work for everybody.
11:41:07 I would like to thank Mr. Fletcher, Rebecca Kert, and
11:41:11 T.H.A.N. for being a part of that group.
11:41:13 Again, was an example of everybody coming together and
11:41:19 working through our differences and coming up with a
11:41:21 solution that really satisfied everybody.
11:41:23 So I would like to give that a shot.
11:41:25 And respectfully suggest that I could take the
11:41:30 ordinance and the language to that meeting which will
11:41:34 be in November, and.
11:41:39 An emergency ban right now probably isn't a good
11:41:47 I just would like the opportunity to see if we can come
11:41:49 together as a group, as a community, and work through
11:41:53 our differences that way.
11:41:54 Thank you.
11:41:54 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:41:59 Next speaker.
11:42:01 >>MARGARET VIZZI: 213 south Sherill.
11:42:02 You have already heard T.H.A.N.'s position on this, so
11:42:05 this is my own personal comments.
11:42:08 The reason we know how drastic this is, really, is
11:42:13 because Tampa did have such an ordinance as the
11:42:19 gentleman previously brought up where some would be
11:42:22 allowed, some could not, and that is shown to be
11:42:25 So we know we can't do that.
11:42:27 It seems it's all or nothing at all.
11:42:31 And at that point is where I would like to address it,
11:42:33 because twice now, I have those who were out in the
11:42:37 streets soliciting, going to another car, then all of a
11:42:40 sudden, as the light changes and everybody moves,
11:42:45 running in front of the car.
11:42:46 I have seen that now twice.
11:42:48 Yesterday, I saw one get very furious at someone who
11:42:54 haddest lip only gave him a dime or quarter, I don't
11:42:57 It was very upset about what was given.
11:43:00 I know others who have given food, and it was thrown
11:43:03 back at them.
11:43:04 And the other thing that really upset me is when I saw
11:43:09 a group of five or six of them being directed, given
11:43:14 their jackets to put on, and directed as to whereof
11:43:17 they should go stand.
11:43:19 So there's some organization in all of this going on as
11:43:23 well, which is way wanted to speak directly to you
11:43:26 about what I have seen.
11:43:28 So council, please, this time we have to do something.
11:43:33 I hope as far as the Sunday newspapers, people either
11:43:35 have them delivered, or get them out of the racks,
11:43:39 because the racks are not banned.
11:43:43 You can have these racks as long as they are
11:43:46 So please, council, do something.
11:43:49 Thank you.
11:43:49 >> Thank you.
11:43:53 Next speaker.
11:43:54 >> Terry -- 8805 Canterbury drive, Temple Terrace,
11:44:05 We were here roughly a year ago and we trade to make
11:44:08 some things that would work out to where sales of
11:44:11 newspapers could continue and the unintended
11:44:14 consequence is a beggar on every corner.
11:44:20 Everyone is speaking about safety.
11:44:24 And safety is absolutely an issue that really needs to
11:44:28 be what we did, and as we did the previous times that
11:44:31 are the best.
11:44:35 I respectfully say I don't think the issue is safety.
11:44:39 I really think the issue is the beggars.
11:44:44 No one wants to see a dirty guy smelling of alcohol.
11:44:49 Why lie on the alcohol?
11:44:52 And I understand because you all are elect officials
11:44:55 that you have to do something.
11:45:02 There's some ordinance as Mr. Caetano said in
11:45:05 St. Augustine where they made adjustments.
11:45:06 I don't know how that effects affects any other
11:45:10 But my statement is, or my request would be if we could
11:45:13 set up something where you have to be a registered
11:45:17 organization, a church or fire department or whatever,
11:45:23 where you have to register and be permitted, and then
11:45:29 additional steps other than sitting on a deck.
11:45:34 I think if you make it a little more cumbersome to
11:45:38 putting on a vest, you are going to get less people on
11:45:40 the street.
11:45:42 Now, the numbers are going down, so statistically we
11:45:49 can't say that it's all safety.
11:45:53 So I appreciate where you all stand because if the
11:45:55 people continue on the street, probably not going to be
11:45:59 good for the next election cycle or whenever you next
11:46:02 have to run.
11:46:02 So I'm with the "The Tampa Tribune" as an independent
11:46:07 Whatever is required, training courses that we have,
11:46:12 every year has to go through all of these classes to
11:46:15 recertify, the insurance company is required by a
11:46:20 governing body to make sure that I'm trained, because
11:46:23 that's what's required.
11:46:23 You can't do that if you are just an individual beggar,
11:46:27 if you don't have a class to go to.
11:46:29 Whatever is going to be required, so that we don't put
11:46:31 more people in a beggar status.
11:46:34 And I will say, some of the people who sell newspapers
11:46:37 for me on Monday go and panhandle.
11:46:44 Because there's no able bodies to go and do work.
11:46:47 Not like everybody out there doesn't want to do
11:46:51 They will work on the day they can work, and then back
11:46:56 to panhandling.
11:46:57 So if we can at least look at some ways that it doesn't
11:47:00 shut down everything, insurance, commercial grade,
11:47:06 insurance, whatever, if you can take that into
11:47:09 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
11:47:09 Next speaker.
11:47:09 >> Jim lake, 421 San Pedro.
11:47:16 I'm here today as a lawyer for the "The Tampa Tribune."
11:47:18 And I just want to make a couple of points.
11:47:23 Council, this is a letter I sent you Friday with a copy
11:47:26 of the St. Augustine ordinance.
11:47:30 I think there are some items in there worth looking at.
11:47:35 I appreciate the time Mr. Merrill spent speaking with
11:47:37 me about and certainly the city attorney's office as
11:47:40 We would like the opportunity to continue to work with
11:47:42 them to have bring back solutions.
11:47:46 Mr. Camp and others have said to you this morning,
11:47:48 won't put people out of work, won't interfere with the
11:47:52 opportunity that regular newspaper customers have to
11:47:55 buy the paper this way.
11:47:57 Without a demonstrated need for that.
11:47:59 Certainly, police ought to be proactive and try to head
11:48:03 off problems.
11:48:04 But when you are regulating in an area that affects a
11:48:10 person's rights people need to be careful about doing
11:48:12 that without a demonstrated record that there really is
11:48:14 a need with regard to every effect, every consequence
11:48:18 of the ordinance.
11:48:19 And I think what we have heard this morning is there
11:48:22 are certainly some concerns but I think there may be
11:48:24 ways to deal with that, short of an absolute across the
11:48:28 board emergency ban, which like I mentioned in my
11:48:32 letter, our appellate court has rejected.
11:48:35 Thank you very much.
11:48:35 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you very much.
11:48:39 Let me just raise a question.
11:48:43 This is the last speaker.
11:48:44 Last speaker.
11:48:45 Come on up, sir.
11:48:46 >> I'm from 2104 north Hillsborough Avenue.
11:48:54 I have been selling food as a vendor, and for last 15
11:48:59 years, my family has a business so we never have a
11:49:03 problem with any accidents, any kind of people.
11:49:05 All of a sudden now my livelihood, a lot of other
11:49:13 people's livelihood is at stake for this.
11:49:17 And I think some regulations may help let us continue
11:49:20 business, and I have never seen any issues myself
11:49:25 personally, been there eight years, and at this moment
11:49:28 I listen to everybody else's request and your concerns.
11:49:35 Think there's nothing we cannot work through and make
11:49:37 it happen again.
11:49:38 Because, you know, I don't need any kind of -- I'm just
11:49:46 looking, and by the concerns, there are some people of
11:49:55 that might have some security by location, but I don't
11:50:01 notch why it has to go, because the company doesn't
11:50:03 like to see people out there selling papers or selling
11:50:07 food, just because they don't like to see it, doesn't
11:50:11 make them to, you know, win the case.
11:50:15 Some other people tray to make a living out of this.
11:50:18 And I think we can all work together to create
11:50:29 something to increase safety, of course, and maybe do
11:50:36 it only in certain locations and lip nature people who
11:50:39 do it illegally.
11:50:40 I mean, it's not a begging.
11:50:42 Basically, it's working, doing something, you know.
11:50:45 And I pay taxes over this.
11:50:47 Everything I make goes into the system.
11:50:48 And I pay income tax.
11:50:52 Making what everybody does.
11:50:55 And maybe my definition of work isn't like yours but
11:50:59 it's still a business.
11:51:00 So I would appreciate if something comes out that will
11:51:02 be okay with everybody.
11:51:03 Thank you.
11:51:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Miller, then councilman
11:51:09 >>GWEN MILLER: Ms. Kert, I have a question for you.
11:51:12 I would like to have no if we cannot ban the whole
11:51:19 thing but once a week on Sunday and then you have to
11:51:22 have a permit.
11:51:22 Would that be permissible?
11:51:25 >>REBECCA KERT: At the current time we are not
11:51:28 recommending a permit system because the state requires
11:51:30 us to except certain organizations and that is in fact
11:51:37 As far as limiting certain hours of information,
11:51:41 whatever solutions City Council comes up with is going
11:51:43 to have to be directly related toe what your
11:51:46 significant interest is, and what I think has been
11:51:49 represented to you today is that there is a safety
11:51:51 interest, if the courts have found as a significant
11:51:56 interest that the regulation will only be upheld if it
11:51:58 is directly related to only addressing that.
11:52:04 >> What if you say once on Sunday like from seven to
11:52:07 Can you do that?
11:52:08 >> I think that we would need to have some sort of
11:52:14 predicate that that is a different safety issue than
11:52:16 all the other times.
11:52:17 If not I don't think that would be upheld.
11:52:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Various things.
11:52:23 Even if we were to pass this, what roads are not
11:52:27 covered are all state roads.
11:52:30 Am I correct?
11:52:31 Or do we have the authority to govern state roads?
11:52:36 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.
11:52:38 I do believe that we do have the authority to cover
11:52:42 state roads.
11:52:46 Certainly the state has preempted the issue of whether
11:52:50 we can regulate traffic on state roads.
11:52:52 I don't believe this regulation would trigger that.
11:52:54 Currently the state's regulation regarding solicitation
11:52:58 on state roads has been struck down as unconstitutional
11:53:01 so I don't believe at the current time we are
11:53:04 prohibited on state roads.
11:53:05 St. Pete in fact has included the interstate roads in
11:53:09 their ordinance.
11:53:10 As I said previously, Hillsborough County does not.
11:53:14 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay, don't leave, please.
11:53:16 There is a difference between vendors and panhandlers,
11:53:19 and the gentleman that spoke last spoke about really
11:53:21 something that's not in the discussion today.
11:53:23 He spoke about another subject matter, vendors in
11:53:27 general that we passed a law a little over a year ago,
11:53:30 if I recall.
11:53:31 So if somebody cited him or removed him is because he
11:53:34 violated or his entity violated the spirit of that
11:53:38 context that this council passed or some members of
11:53:40 this council passed over a year ago which clearly
11:53:42 stated about the property, the length of it, the
11:53:45 setback requirement, noon chairs, no tables, and so
11:53:49 forth and so on.
11:53:50 So now, if there was a violation, that's a different
11:53:54 So I don't want to address that.
11:53:55 But I have seen some advertising.
11:53:57 I saw one fellow west on Gandy towards Dale Mabry to
11:54:01 make a left, heading south, says advertise here with
11:54:07 As I leave that business and I went to, and I'm heading
11:54:11 now north on Dale Mabry, I did see that sign that the
11:54:15 gentleman spoke to, said truth: Need money for beer.
11:54:19 So there's a lot of things that are coming out.
11:54:23 But what I do remember the most about all the subject
11:54:26 matter -- and I'm just going to try to refresh
11:54:28 everyone's mind -- when you see newspapers being sold
11:54:31 in the median, guess what you don't see.
11:54:40 I mean, think about it.
11:54:41 Don't take my word for it.
11:54:42 Just refresh your own memory.
11:54:44 Do you see both of them in the same intersection at the
11:54:47 same time?
11:54:48 The answer is no.
11:54:50 To a greater degree.
11:54:51 I am not going to he will you it's 100 percent real.
11:54:54 So I understand what happened here is we did have an
11:54:59 ordinance that created licensing.
11:55:02 And that was viable for many years.
11:55:04 And you had to have a million dollars liability and so
11:55:07 fought and so on, which sometimes could be cost
11:55:10 prohibitive depending who you are.
11:55:13 That was struck down 10 or 12 years or sometime during
11:55:17 that era.
11:55:18 So now, the bullet is in our corner.
11:55:22 We have a problem that I agree with everyone that said
11:55:25 we have a problem, because it is a problem.
11:55:28 Not only a safety issue to the individuals that are
11:55:30 doing the panhandling, but to accidental -- accidents
11:55:35 that society has to pay for in forms of insurance and
11:55:38 so forth and so on in your vehicle.
11:55:42 So what are we doing?
11:55:46 I hear all the time came from it came from St. Pete.
11:55:49 Maybe and maybe some.
11:55:51 It could have come from the east side, from the south
11:55:53 side, from the north side.
11:55:54 We are all saying it came from the west.
11:55:57 So then I'm saying, how did it get here?
11:56:00 Did they swim across?
11:56:02 Did they use the Gandy bridge?
11:56:04 No, doesn't go through on the crosswalk.
11:56:06 Did they use the Howard Frankland bridge?
11:56:08 Did they use any other method to get here?
11:56:10 There's only one method that connects the two inlets,
11:56:13 and that's the Friendship Trail bridge.
11:56:15 So we have got a poor enforcement of transmitting the
11:56:23 friendship bridge.
11:56:24 I believe that's the only way it can come, when I say
11:56:27 went all the way around, and came in the other way
11:56:30 through Hillsborough Avenue from Pinellas County, which
11:56:33 is possible.
11:56:37 What I'm saying is, this is a problem, that no matter
11:56:42 what you do, some good people are going to get hurt and
11:56:44 some good people are going to be unemployed.
11:56:47 I'm not saying that I won't vote for it.
11:56:50 What I'm saying is that we talk about doing things
11:56:56 without remedies.
11:56:57 Does this have a remedy, in your opinion?
11:57:00 You are much smarter than I can.
11:57:02 I am I can tell by the salary of the check.
11:57:05 [ Laughter ]
11:57:08 It's a compliment to you.
11:57:09 >>REBECCA KERT: Thank you.
11:57:11 Apparently I am not smart enough because I didn't
11:57:15 understand the question.
11:57:16 [ Laughter ]
11:57:17 >>GWEN MILLER: It wasn't a question.
11:57:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, I have to be very careful.
11:57:25 There's an election for mayor and that isn't important
11:57:27 to me.
11:57:28 >>GWEN MILLER: It wasn't a question.
11:57:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: The question is this.
11:57:31 Is there a remedy that the legal department can bring
11:57:35 before this council?
11:57:38 Yes or no?
11:57:42 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: City attorney.
11:57:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Salary check.
11:57:46 >>> The recommendation to address this he shall you,
11:57:50 the two choices we have is either what wave on the
11:57:53 books now, which is the free open system that we have,
11:57:57 which as you heard is not working, to address the
11:58:01 concerns of the chief and the public safety staff and
11:58:05 the community you heard, the option of that we would
11:58:08 recommend would be to go forward with an ordinance of
11:58:10 the type that St. Petersburg has enacted, that focuses
11:58:13 very narrowly on transactions in the traveled way, it's
11:58:17 narrower than the public right-of-way, transaction of
11:58:21 vehicles in the traveled way.
11:58:23 It has been reviewed by the courts through a process in
11:58:28 federal court so we believe it is defensible and we
11:58:30 think it is the narrowest regulation of the solution
11:58:34 without getting into other issues related to
11:58:37 advertisements in the public rights-of-way.
11:58:40 Which we regulate through other mechanisms in our city
11:58:43 code presently.
11:58:46 And we are prepared touch prepare that ordinance and
11:58:48 have it available for you at the next City Council
11:58:50 meeting if that's council's desire.
11:58:53 >>: Well, then there is no options other than what you
11:58:56 just said.
11:58:57 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: That's correct.
11:59:00 The permit that we use to have with the city and was
11:59:04 common throughout the state, it came through change of
11:59:07 stat law that exempted certain entities.
11:59:10 The federal court looked at that and said that's not
11:59:12 equal protection of all interests and found that
11:59:16 process was not Constitutional.
11:59:18 So until the legislature chooses to exchange that
11:59:20 system, we are put in a box as having an all or nothing
11:59:25 choice at this point.
11:59:25 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. Fletcher, wait.
11:59:30 My question has to do with what you were just
11:59:33 What is it called, the traveled -- what?
11:59:37 >>> There are different terms and definitions but
11:59:39 basically the traveled way is the roadway where the
11:59:42 vehicles travel between the curbs, and --
11:59:48 >> Does that mean that in a one can stand on a median?
11:59:52 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Yes.
11:59:54 And the focus of the regulation will be to prevent the
11:59:56 transaction with the vehicle on the roadway.
11:59:58 That is the safety concern that we are hearing about.
12:00:01 >> So you can't be in the median if you are on the side
12:00:04 of the road, as long as you are in the --
12:00:07 >> What you can't do is solicit -- what you can't do is
12:00:10 solicit to have a transaction with someone in their
12:00:13 vehicle in the roadway.
12:00:14 >> So there can be no solicitation at all even if you
12:00:20 are on the side of the road? There can't be any
12:00:23 interaction with the vehicle?
12:00:25 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Correct.
12:00:26 It would not, as I read the ordinance that St. Pete
12:00:30 implemented, someone that was standing off the road to
12:00:33 encourage someone to come and go to a car wash or get
12:00:35 their oil changed, that's not a transaction in the
12:00:38 traveled way, so that wouldn't be regulated.
12:00:41 What's prohibited is the interaction in the roadway
12:00:45 where we have the risk of accidents and other safety
12:00:47 >> I have a question for you related to that.
12:00:55 I'm not sure I heard today any real, as one woman point
12:01:00 out, statistical or even example of public safety
12:01:05 hazards, or I missed the first part of chief Bennett's
12:01:12 presentation, but if we actually had actual calls to
12:01:18 the police or arrests, do we have the documentation to
12:01:23 show that there is really -- and do we need to show --
12:01:28 I guess the first question, do we need to show there's
12:01:30 some public safety actual problem?
12:01:34 And if so, do we have that?
12:01:41 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Conservatively, I think the answer
12:01:43 would be we do need to prepare an evidently predicate
12:01:46 for council's action in this regard, whether it's
12:01:50 absolutely legally required I think is a matter for
12:01:52 open debate, but we would recommend having that
12:01:56 The police department is prepared to bring that
12:01:58 forward, is my understanding if council's desire is to
12:02:01 go forward with this type of regulation, and that would
12:02:05 be in a variety of forms from information from
12:02:10 consensual encounters, reports of interaction was
12:02:13 individuals, some arrests, but the focus has been on
12:02:16 prevention and safety, not on arrests, so I don't know
12:02:20 what the volume of those would be.
12:02:22 And then other types of information attesting to the
12:02:25 workload and the amount of retention and for the
12:02:33 enforcement which has been a significant issue as well.
12:02:37 >> But if we put some other regulation, it still needs
12:02:42 enforcement, right?
12:02:43 >> Well, part of the problem as I understand it is we
12:02:46 have safety standards such as you are not allowed to
12:02:49 continue your transaction within the roadway, while the
12:02:55 light is green, and you heard some testimony from the
12:02:59 chief, you heard from the residents.
12:03:01 Part of the issue is that there are individuals that
12:03:04 are not evacuated the roadway and creating traffic
12:03:12 That's part of the issue.
12:03:13 Without a permit system you can't permanently eject
12:03:15 those folks.
12:03:16 You have got to just deal with them when you see them.
12:03:19 So it requires a lot more staff time and law
12:03:22 enforcement time to deal with those issues.
12:03:24 >> Right.
12:03:24 But if we prohibit it in the proposal that you are
12:03:28 making, it still has to be enforced?
12:03:32 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: It does.
12:03:33 But what our understanding is the workload is
12:03:35 significantly less.
12:03:38 >> Just to arrest someone than to have to show the
12:03:44 investigation of what they were actually doing, I
12:03:48 >> He can address that more specifically than I can.
12:03:55 >> I would like to hear from him but I have --
12:03:58 >>THOMAS SCOTT: We are about five minutes past 12:00.
12:04:00 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
12:04:01 I have one more.
12:04:02 Let me ask one more question.
12:04:03 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Do you all want to go another 15
12:04:08 9/11 yes.
12:04:08 >>THOMAS SCOTT: That's fine.
12:04:09 >>MARY MULHERN: Thanks.
12:04:16 I guess what the county is doing now, Mr. Merrill,
12:04:18 maybe you can tell me.
12:04:21 [ Laughter ]
12:04:21 I got you.
12:04:24 Can you afford 15 more minutes?
12:04:27 I just have a brief question.
12:04:28 The county is in this group with the city, that you are
12:04:32 looking at this problem, and you have already done a
12:04:39 lot, right?
12:04:42 >> Mr. Merrill: That's right, yes.
12:04:46 >> But it's a problem for you even though you have it
12:04:48 on the books?
12:04:49 >>> That's correct.
12:04:50 >>MARY MULHERN: So this remedy we have would be -- is
12:04:52 it the same as what you are talking about?
12:04:56 I'm sorry, what the county has on the books, what you
12:04:58 are talking about, Chip, is that what the county
12:05:01 already has on the books?
12:05:02 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: It's very similar for purposes of
12:05:04 our discussions.
12:05:05 They are both bans.
12:05:07 What St. Pete did approaches it a little differently.
12:05:10 And focuses on traveled way.
12:05:12 The county actually prohibits all advertising within a
12:05:16 certain distance of the right-of-way.
12:05:17 So it's a very subtle difference but it is difference.
12:05:20 >> So I guess my question for you, Mr. Merrill, is what
12:05:24 is the problem in the county that has brought this to
12:05:27 >> I think it's the same problem that you chief Benson
12:05:32 As I said, the sheriff's office is also part of this
12:05:37 And in our first meeting we heard virtually the same
12:05:39 sort of testimony from the sheriff's office, that as
12:05:44 much as they continue to enforce it, obviously I
12:05:48 think -- I shouldn't say obviously because we are -- I
12:05:53 think the economy has a lot to do with it.
12:05:55 But nevertheless, to just sort of make assumptions
12:05:59 about individuals and their motivations for why they do
12:06:02 it, at this point probably isn't the right step to
12:06:06 I think the homeless coalition, prayer to our first
12:06:08 meeting of the committee, did an informal sort of
12:06:12 survey, if you will, of people who were panhandling.
12:06:16 It wasn't sophisticated.
12:06:18 It wasn't scientific research.
12:06:19 It was just their attempt to try to get a sense.
12:06:22 And I think some of the things they found were
12:06:25 interesting in terms of who is considered classically
12:06:28 homeless, and who is not in terms of folks involved.
12:06:32 So there's still a lot of questions.
12:06:34 But it still is a safety problem, we believe.
12:06:39 And I think the sheriff's office could provide
12:06:41 statistics and help support that.
12:06:46 It gets a little bit tricky in terms of what laws are
12:06:50 being violated.
12:06:50 >>MARY MULHERN: My feeling at this point, if this is a
12:06:56 safety -- a serious safety issue, and also there's a
12:07:02 need for an emergency ordinance, I haven't seen the
12:07:06 So I am going to have to see before I would support
12:07:09 passing anything at all.
12:07:10 I need to see some statistics.
12:07:11 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: If I may address the emergency
12:07:16 ordinance issue.
12:07:17 We wouldn't recommend it go forward with an emergency
12:07:19 ordinance today.
12:07:20 We would recommend bringing back a regular ordinance
12:07:22 for your next council meeting with two hearings with
12:07:24 the standard ordinance adoption process.
12:07:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Stokes.
12:07:32 >>CURTIS STOKES: I think Mr. Merrill touched on it very
12:07:35 succinctly when he mentioned that we have to -- the
12:07:44 panhandling, is this homelessness or employment
12:07:48 And I think Chip Fletcher only has two options, A or B.
12:07:53 But there are unintended consequences on both.
12:07:59 When you look at option 1, you have the newspaper
12:08:05 vendors, and your area vendors, I call them
12:08:10 microentrepreneurs, who are trying to establish a
12:08:15 business and live out the American dream.
12:08:21 We go option 2, we ban it and we eliminate that option
12:08:25 of living out the American dream.
12:08:29 Unintended consequences.
12:08:32 My question is, given those two options, is it possible
12:08:36 to allow the solicitation within the defined days,
12:08:47 Sunday -- Ms. Miller asked suns, Tuesday, Thursday --
12:08:51 is it possible?
12:08:54 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: It would be difficult to create or
12:08:55 to evaluate that without somewhat significant study of
12:09:04 the safety issues.
12:09:05 We would have to come up with -- I don't mean make up.
12:09:09 We would have to evaluate times of day when the safety
12:09:13 issue was of less of a concern.
12:09:15 I think the testimony you have heard -- and I will let
12:09:19 the chief speak to this -- is there's not a significant
12:09:24 difference from a safety perspective on the various
12:09:26 times of day.
12:09:27 But if council wanted us to, we can investigate that,
12:09:30 evaluate that.
12:09:31 But that's what -- it would have to be driven by on the
12:09:36 ground actual information, not just a business
12:09:40 So we would need to evaluate that in some detail before
12:09:45 recommending council move forward in that type of
12:09:50 >>CURTIS STOKES: Is it sounds like it's also an
12:09:52 enforcement issue.
12:09:53 Is it possible to levy fines for those lots, say, in
12:09:59 the newspaper business or firefighter business?
12:10:04 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: We have a fine process in place.
12:10:06 But the community we are dealing with -- the chief
12:10:11 could again speak to this, but particularly if this
12:10:14 community fines your effective result they don't have
12:10:18 the means to pay fines, so the issue is then
12:10:22 And is that productive in this context?
12:10:24 And my understanding is from our view that's an action
12:10:28 of last resort, something we are really not anxious to
12:10:33 So while fines could be an option and are an option on
12:10:37 the books right now, they don't tend to get to the core
12:10:41 of the problem.
12:10:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Miranda.
12:10:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: How are we going to enforce this if
12:10:51 it passes?
12:10:53 A, enforcement, very time consuming on the police part.
12:10:57 Second, what are the convictions?
12:10:59 What's going to happen?
12:11:01 Are there going to be fines or penalties?
12:11:04 Or do you go directly to jail, don't pass go?
12:11:08 Will there be a warning, not a warning?
12:11:12 I don't understand how that's going to work, because I
12:11:15 haven't seen the ordinance.
12:11:17 Hasn't been written.
12:11:17 And then you go to political signs.
12:11:20 There are signs all over right now, and the media is
12:11:25 here, they can go check them, and all the rights-of-way
12:11:28 in the whole City of Tampa.
12:11:30 What have we done?
12:11:31 We have picked up some to have, especially those that
12:11:34 were open during the early balloting of the primaries.
12:11:37 They were picked up.
12:11:39 Then they are start enough to do the 4 by 8 which is
12:11:42 totally legally -- 32 square photo and they are popping
12:11:53 up right now.
12:11:53 Now why?
12:11:54 By the time we get to them, the election is over.
12:11:58 So instead of just taking them out, there's always an
12:12:02 Oh, you can't do that, it's private property.
12:12:06 Well, it's against the law.
12:12:07 I don't care whose property it is.
12:12:09 So there's some right now popping up on Armenia Avenue.
12:12:11 I saw one this morning coming to City Hall.
12:12:14 So are we doing anything about it?
12:12:16 Absolutely not.
12:12:19 So because the signs there are now.
12:12:21 I have seen it for a week.
12:12:23 And if I have seen it, some city employee, code
12:12:26 enforcement could see the same sign I saw.
12:12:30 So what I'm saying is, tell me how you are going to
12:12:33 write this ordinance, what is going to be the
12:12:36 enforcement, and how are we going to do it by sending
12:12:41 these fines or penalty of jail time.
12:12:45 I assume that's the only answer.
12:12:47 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: First of all let me say that I
12:12:52 think the experience of other jurisdictions, and I
12:12:55 would anticipate the experience you would have, the
12:12:58 variety majority of people who engage in panhandling or
12:13:01 selling newspapers are law abiding citizens and when
12:13:03 law enforcement officers tell them that it's prohibited
12:13:06 they voluntarily comply.
12:13:07 I think that's generally been the experience.
12:13:11 Now, if we did have bad actors, we would have the
12:13:14 option of either a fine or seeking incarceration.
12:13:18 That would be an option.
12:13:20 But I do believe that law enforcement's approach -- and
12:13:24 the chief will speak to this -- would be a warning, and
12:13:27 seeking voluntary compliance, and I think for the most
12:13:30 part that's what we get because most people do want to
12:13:33 follow the laws of the land and wanted to be honest law
12:13:35 abiding citizens, so they do tend to get strong
12:13:39 But in terms of what you do with the bad actors, I
12:13:42 think that would be appropriate for the chief to
12:13:43 address that issue.
12:13:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: But is that going to be part of the
12:13:50 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I'm sorry?
12:13:51 What would be in the ordinance would be -- Rebecca,
12:13:54 what do they have in the St. Pete ordinance?
12:13:56 I believe it's a misdemeanor.
12:13:58 >>REBECCA KERT: Currently, and also for the St. Pete
12:14:02 ordinance, it's punishable by a maximum of -- if
12:14:07 criminal sanction, but up to 60 days in jail and a $500
12:14:13 fine, but that would be the maximum.
12:14:14 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: That's consistent with what our
12:14:17 ordinance violations are as well.
12:14:19 So we would just make it a violation of our ordinance
12:14:21 which would be similar to that.
12:14:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, let me say this.
12:14:25 There's a political season going on now and there's a
12:14:28 political season coming up pretty, pretty soon starting
12:14:30 in January, real heavy.
12:14:34 If you see me in a streetcar with my sign I am going to
12:14:37 put myself in jail because somebody is going to violate
12:14:39 that, that spirit of the intent of the law, and I
12:14:43 guarantee you, you are going to see people standing in
12:14:46 corners for advertising purposes to get their name out.
12:14:52 So I caution these individuals not to stand.
12:14:56 And we have to abide by our own laws.
12:14:59 And we have to understand that going in.
12:15:02 So I can pledge that if this law is brought in, you are
12:15:06 not going to see my signs there anywhere necessary
12:15:08 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Let me clarify.
12:15:10 What St. Pete did was focus on transactions with
12:15:14 drivers in the rights-of-way where things are
12:15:17 The type of advertisement that you are describing where
12:15:20 someone is on a sidewalk or behind the sidewalk, that
12:15:23 would not be addressed because they are not seeking to
12:15:26 have a physical interaction with the vehicle.
12:15:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: There's no safety issue there?
12:15:32 >>> They are not in the traveled way.
12:15:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: But you don't move your headway one
12:15:38 way or the other to see what the sign is says?
12:15:41 I think it does.
12:15:43 I think it applies to those people, whether it should
12:15:46 apply to me.
12:15:46 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: If you want to regulate that
12:15:49 activity, we would need to use language closer to
12:15:52 what's in the Hillsborough County ordinance, and we can
12:15:53 do that if that's council's preference.
12:15:55 That is broader.
12:15:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Chairman, if I am going to do
12:15:59 something, I want government, including myself and the
12:16:03 rest of us, to have a combination of both ordinances so
12:16:06 that we don't have the right to stand in the
12:16:09 I firmly believe that's the only fair way of doing
12:16:12 something like this.
12:16:12 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: A policy choice, just so we are
12:16:18 clear, it's a transaction just in the right-of-way
12:16:21 which is what St. Pete did, and which focuses on the
12:16:24 safety issue, narrowly.
12:16:27 What Hillsborough does is prohibit that transaction in
12:16:29 the right-of-way, plus advertising within, I believe,
12:16:33 it's four feet of the street or the traveled way, which
12:16:37 would include both sidewalks.
12:16:41 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilman Caetano, cap pin, Miller.
12:16:47 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Are you ready to draw an
12:16:50 ordinance and bring it back at our next regular meeting
12:16:51 on the 21st for first reading, and back on November
12:16:55 4 though for second reading?
12:16:58 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Yes, we are prepared to have
12:16:59 provide that ordinance for council, which would address
12:17:01 many of these issues, and we are in a position to
12:17:05 provide that for you by the next council meeting.
12:17:10 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Can I make that a motion?
12:17:13 >>GWEN MILLER: No.
12:17:14 >>THOMAS SCOTT: He can make a motion, because the
12:17:16 public has already spoken.
12:17:19 We can always make a motion.
12:17:20 The issue is whether you get a second or not.
12:17:22 But you can always get a motion.
12:17:24 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Or else we will be in the same
12:17:27 And a motion.
12:17:29 Thank you.
12:17:29 >>THOMAS SCOTT: You made a motion?
12:17:34 Okay, Councilwoman Capin.
12:17:38 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I think he made a motion.
12:17:39 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Did you make a motion?
12:17:41 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: My motion is for Mr. Fletcher and
12:17:42 the legal council to -- counsel to draft an ordinance
12:17:47 similar to St. Petersburg and bring it back November
12:17:48 21st -- excuse me, October 21st for first
12:17:52 reading, and our second reading will be on November
12:17:57 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Capin.
12:18:04 >>YVONNE CAPIN: My question, chief Bennett, when I
12:18:05 asked him a question, he corrected me when I said the
12:18:10 He said "potential danger."
12:18:13 That's been the focus.
12:18:14 Potential danger, safety.
12:18:19 This has come to our attention because of saturation in
12:18:23 these corners, because this has always happened.
12:18:27 This has always -- I have been here my entire life, and
12:18:30 we have always had people.
12:18:32 And now, because of saturation, we have this issue,
12:18:40 The other thing I want to bring up is one of the things
12:18:46 I thought was permit but I have seen this and already
12:18:49 taken care of.
12:18:50 St. Pete's penalty is 60 days in jail.
12:18:55 Well, that's a way of giving a roof over a homeless
12:19:01 We have one of the highest unemployment rates in the
12:19:13 Obviously that's the saturation.
12:19:17 The issue of safety is definitely there.
12:19:26 I would like to -- I would like to see statistics.
12:19:31 I would like to see where we move on this, before we
12:19:38 move on this, numbers.
12:19:41 Of what has happened and where it's happened.
12:19:49 That's all I have to say.
12:19:50 >>GWEN MILLER: I was talking about newspapers.
12:19:54 And it was an oversight.
12:19:56 I forgot about one newspaper that I didn't mention.
12:19:59 But there's a representative here, and I wonder if she
12:20:02 would like to come up and say something in her defense.
12:20:12 >> Good afternoon now.
12:20:16 I appreciate this.
12:20:18 I am Kay Andrews, the publisher of the Florida Sentinel
12:20:22 And I would like to speak in defense of our newspaper
12:20:29 I have been in the business my entire life, because my
12:20:32 grandfather was a person who actually founded the
12:20:34 newspaper, and from the beginning he always had
12:20:38 newspaper boys and girls to sell the newspaper.
12:20:44 We have tried to keep this tradition going.
12:20:45 It has supplemented many incomes.
12:20:48 We have a lot of elderly people supplementing their
12:20:51 income by selling the paper.
12:20:53 It's unfortunate that a lot of our elderly people and
12:20:57 our young people have to do this, but they do it.
12:20:59 They do it with integrity and honesty.
12:21:04 And this would be a travesty if you guys decided to put
12:21:07 them in the poor house even more, where a lot of these
12:21:14 young people actually use it for moneys for food to
12:21:20 They don't have lunch money.
12:21:21 They don't have money for breakfast or dinner.
12:21:25 And our elderly people are in a great -- in a bad state
12:21:30 right now.
12:21:31 So they buy groceries with the money.
12:21:33 They do pay bills with the money.
12:21:36 This is an issue that is very tough.
12:21:39 I understand that they are using safety as the reason
12:21:43 right now.
12:21:44 But in my entire 33 years that I have been there, I
12:21:49 have never had a kid get hit by a car or anything like
12:21:53 So I'm not sure exactly where this is other than the
12:21:56 fact that, yes, we do have a lot of panhandlers, but
12:22:01 they could be out robbing people.
12:22:03 And they could be busting out a car and stealing out of
12:22:11 somebody's car and if a citizen decides to stop and
12:22:14 give them a dollar, that's their choice.
12:22:18 I do stop, because I never know if Jesus is walking up
12:22:21 to my car.
12:22:22 And that's how I feel about it.
12:22:24 And I thank you for this time to speak to you.
12:22:27 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Thank you.
12:22:30 Let me just say -- and we have to wrap it up here --
12:22:34 the motion did not get a second.
12:22:36 Let me just say first of all to all of us who are here
12:22:41 and watching, all of you that have a job, you ought to
12:22:48 thank God every day.
12:22:49 Everybody that's employed.
12:22:52 Everybody who has an income, you ought to thank God
12:22:57 every day for that.
12:23:00 You never know where life is going to take you.
12:23:05 I think Councilwoman Capin said it earlier, we have a
12:23:10 13% unemployment rate in Hillsborough County, Florida.
12:23:14 That's the highest in the nation.
12:23:19 When I look at this whole issue, really our choices are
12:23:23 limited based on what the attorneys have told us.
12:23:26 Pretty much, you can't separate out the newspaper
12:23:29 vendor versus the panhandlers.
12:23:32 That's what they told us.
12:23:33 You can't separate out.
12:23:34 You can't let them do it on Tuesday or Thursday or
12:23:38 That's what I have been told.
12:23:42 And so in essence you either pass an ordinance that
12:23:46 exempts everybody or you try to put some safety
12:23:51 features in place as we tried to do earlier, I think
12:23:54 last year.
12:23:55 And what has happened is that there's been a
12:23:58 deliberation based on, I think, a couple of things.
12:24:01 One, I think the St. Pete ordinance has had somewhat of
12:24:04 an impact.
12:24:06 Two, I think by our decision to this may have
12:24:17 heightened the awareness that appears to be more of
12:24:20 them out there.
12:24:21 I will tell you, when you drive down on any corner in
12:24:25 the City of Tampa or in Hillsborough County who has a
12:24:29 no solicitation ordinance, you find these people that
12:24:33 they are there, and particularly with vests on, these
12:24:36 red, green, lime vests, highlights that they are on
12:24:41 these corners.
12:24:42 I think councilman Miranda made a valid point that you
12:24:45 will never find a panhandler on the same corner as
12:24:48 newspaper vendors.
12:24:50 Never will you see that.
12:24:52 I agree with that 100 percent.
12:24:53 The issue becomes for pus, how do you address the issue
12:24:59 without raising unemployment even further? That's the
12:25:04 For me, you know, we have panhandlers versus newspaper.
12:25:10 We have poor versus those who are employed.
12:25:14 We have distraction.
12:25:17 For some of us it's more of a distraction.
12:25:20 Distraction versus unemployment.
12:25:25 Us the one of those situations, it's a tough decision.
12:25:29 But from where I am, I guess I have a little more
12:25:35 passion, compassion, a little more sensitive to the
12:25:38 fact that you have a job, you have been blessed, you
12:25:46 are fortunate to have an income.
12:25:48 I will tell you today there are people we've college
12:25:52 degrees -- I have talked to some of them -- that are on
12:25:56 the corners.
12:26:04 Now the employment rate for Hillsborough County is 13%
12:26:11 A lot of these people, they are not there because they
12:26:13 want to be there.
12:26:15 They are trying to sustain them.
12:26:18 Take care of their families and take care of
12:26:24 And it's unfortunate it has come down to that and upon
12:26:31 us based on their Supreme Court ruling that either is
12:26:35 all or nothing, pretty much is what we are faced with
12:26:38 here today.
12:26:39 I don't know how much more rigid you can get than
12:26:44 Hillsborough County's.
12:26:47 You know what the Hillsborough County ordinance says?
12:26:50 Mr. Fletcher, it says no solicitation, period.
12:26:56 Is there solicitation in Hillsborough County?
12:27:00 Now, the question becomes, the question becomes for us,
12:27:07 if you enforce the St. Petersburg ordinance, 60 days in
12:27:10 jail, somebody is going to pay for that 60 days.
12:27:12 Do you know how much it costs to be in jail today?
12:27:15 That is a cost to taxpayers.
12:27:16 Who is going to pay for that?
12:27:18 You are.
12:27:19 Taxpayers are going to pay for it.
12:27:23 60 days in jail, $500.
12:27:25 Where are they going to get $500 from?
12:27:33 Where do they get $500 from?
12:27:35 My guess is it's going to be one of two things.
12:27:38 They are going to find a way, the panhandler to come up
12:27:41 with $500, or they are going to spend 60 days in jail,
12:27:45 and we are going to pay for it.
12:27:51 What's the answer?
12:27:51 I don't have an answer to the problem.
12:27:54 But I am willing to look at what Hillsborough County
12:27:57 Hillsborough County, at least trying to look at it and
12:28:00 see what they come up with.
12:28:01 I can't support today a complete ban.
12:28:03 I just can't do that, in good conscience, I cannot do
12:28:11 I understand it's a distraction for some of us.
12:28:14 Believe me, there's not a corner in the City of Tampa
12:28:16 or Hillsborough for that matter, that you drive that
12:28:21 somebody is not on a corner.
12:28:22 I can tell you where they are.
12:28:28 30th street.
12:28:36 Gone down there.
12:28:36 Oh, yeah.
12:28:37 >> And East Tampa.
12:28:40 >> I'm starting out in the county in case the county
12:28:42 don't know where they are.
12:28:43 [ Laughter ]
12:28:46 Right as you get off the expressway right by the mall.
12:28:50 It in the county.
12:28:55 Adamo Drive, 60th.
12:28:59 East Tampa.
12:29:00 22nd street and Hillsborough.
12:29:04 Hillsborough and 40th.
12:29:10 I mean, my point is you have it almost everywhere.
12:29:17 The question is, what is the answer?
12:29:20 I don't have answers.
12:29:22 But Illinois tell you today I am not ready to pass a
12:29:25 blanket ordinance that raise the unemployment rate even
12:29:29 higher and force people to be outdoors on the streets.
12:29:34 I just can't do than in good conscience.
12:29:37 And so I am prepared, Mr. Fletcher, if we can work with
12:29:42 Hillsborough County to look at what they are doing, I
12:29:44 can support that.
12:29:46 See what they come back in terms of a recommendation.
12:29:48 Not that I will support it or vote for it.
12:29:51 I may not.
12:29:52 At least study and take a look at it and we can gather
12:29:55 more information.
12:29:56 Councilman Stokes.
12:29:59 >>CURTIS STOKES: Let me thank my colleague Mr. Joe
12:30:01 Caetano for bringing this issue to us.
12:30:03 Joe has been very passionate about this issue of
12:30:06 panhandling inure city.
12:30:08 And I would ask Joe -- Mr. Caetano, we want to make
12:30:16 sure that we are lock stock and barrel with what the
12:30:19 county is doing.
12:30:22 I'll pledge to continue this fight.
12:30:24 I think it's a worth while fight and bring this issue
12:30:27 back once the planning, task force comes back.
12:30:31 I think it's a worthwhile issue.
12:30:33 >>THOMAS SCOTT: The.
12:30:34 Question: I failed to mention, Mr. Fletcher, have you
12:30:36 all looked at the implication of the St. Petersburg
12:30:40 Has there been no solicitations since they passed that
12:30:44 ordinance, and what has that impact been?
12:30:47 Did that include also how have the vendors fared, the
12:30:54 newspaper, their impact on that?
12:30:58 >> We have had some discussions and that's part of what
12:31:00 this task force is looking at as well.
12:31:02 Our understanding is that the solicitation is down
12:31:09 Now whether this is the only tool they have implemented
12:31:11 or whether there are other tools as part of what we are
12:31:13 looking at, but there our understanding, that's been
12:31:18 reported to us, there has been a dramatic increase in
12:31:22 solicitation on the roadways.
12:31:23 From that perspective, it appears to have achieved that
12:31:26 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Okay.
12:31:29 >>JOSEPH P. CAETANO: Mr. Chairman, the whole objective
12:31:34 of this is for public safety.
12:31:36 In your packets that I distributed, we have the
12:31:39 Hillsborough County ordinance, Plant City, city of
12:31:43 Temple Terrace, which reads section 1-145 prohibits
12:31:48 solicitation for donations or sales of persons engaging
12:31:51 in advertising as well as free dissemination of
12:31:54 material or objects on public rights-of-way,
12:31:57 thoroughfares of streets, violations of the ordinance
12:31:59 are punishable pursuant to the general penalty
12:32:02 provisions contained in the city code.
12:32:04 City of Temple Terrace, he this don't want to put
12:32:08 people out of work, too, but the reason they did
12:32:10 this -- because I have spoken to the mayor, and they
12:32:13 were at the meeting at falcon Berg road as Mr. Merrill
12:32:16 was, and chief Bennett was there and Mr. Fletcher.
12:32:20 It's public safety.
12:32:20 I don't want to put people out of work.
12:32:22 The whole thing is, nothing has happened from what I
12:32:28 We haven't had anybody killed yet but it going to
12:32:35 Thank you.
12:32:36 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Miller.
12:32:36 >>GWEN MILLER: Mr. Fletcher, can we distinguish
12:32:39 between selling newspapers and panhandling?
12:32:42 Is there a difference, call them panhandlers or what?
12:32:46 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: Under the current case law there
12:32:51 does not appear to be a valid way to differentiate
12:32:54 between different types of folks that are conducting
12:32:57 business in rights-of-way.
12:32:58 We can't get into the purpose of the transaction.
12:33:04 So I think the answer is no.
12:33:09 If the legislature were to change, the statute we work
12:33:13 under, there may be a process to approach it
12:33:16 differently but at present we have no ability to
12:33:19 distinguish between the panhandlers and the folks that
12:33:20 are selling food or water or newspapers or any other
12:33:26 We do have a panhandling ordinance on the books that
12:33:30 does prohibit aggressive panhandling.
12:33:33 So that is a tool that we have.
12:33:35 But in terms of just prohibiting the transactions, we
12:33:38 can't differentiate between the purpose of the various
12:33:41 >>GWEN MILLER: Before with the times that everybody
12:33:46 had on shirts, if you have a newspaper you could put on
12:33:50 your shirt that I am selling a newspaper?
12:33:52 Would that be a difference then?
12:33:57 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: I don't believe so.
12:33:58 No, under the case law it's not.
12:34:00 You can't make those kinds of distinctions over the
12:34:02 content of what the person is engaging in the
12:34:05 >>GWEN MILLER: So there's no way you can go to the
12:34:10 legislature and have them to come up with a field that
12:34:13 distinguishes between the 2001?
12:34:18 >>> No.
12:34:19 In fact what's partially gotten us in trouble with the
12:34:22 courts is the effort bits legislature to exempt certain
12:34:25 folks that are non-profits.
12:34:26 They attempted to make a distinction between
12:34:29 for-profits like newspapers and not for profits like
12:34:34 charities, and that's the type of distinction that the
12:34:36 court struck down, that put us in this position, not
12:34:39 being able to do permitting at all.
12:34:43 >>CHAIRMAN: And you say you can't get a permit?
12:34:48 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: That's the quandary we are in.
12:34:49 The state statute requires certain exemptions from my
12:34:53 So that puts us in a position, since that's not valid,
12:34:57 we don't have that authority to permit islands under
12:35:01 state law, that puts us in the position of having to
12:35:03 make the choices everyone or no one.
12:35:06 >>GWEN MILLER: Of what before you have some type of
12:35:09 card or identification that you have got to have to
12:35:12 show that what you are doing?
12:35:13 Would that be legal?
12:35:16 >>> Not as part of a permit system.
12:35:19 That would still go back to the same issue.
12:35:21 I don't know that we have investigated whether some
12:35:25 other way of getting to that.
12:35:27 >> Can you look into that part?
12:35:33 >> We can look at that.
12:35:35 >>GWEN MILLER: Look and see if you have a card, if you
12:35:37 have some kind of identification of that when you are
12:35:39 there you have to show why you are there and what you
12:35:41 are doing so you are not a panhandler, you are not just
12:35:46 >>> Just to be clear, what we can't do is discriminate
12:35:50 based on the purpose of the person being there.
12:35:53 So whether it's charity, commercial sale, or begging,
12:35:58 we can't -- as the government, we can't make the
12:36:01 distinctions between the purpose of the communication.
12:36:06 We can get into function.
12:36:07 But in time, place and manner, but we can't get into
12:36:11 the purpose of why they are engaging the public.
12:36:13 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Mulhern.
12:36:18 >>MARY MULHERN: It occurs to me when we talk about
12:36:21 this -- I'm not convinced, I haven't heard anything to
12:36:25 show that we don't have an -- any existing safety
12:36:30 concern because of panhandlers or newspaper sales.
12:36:33 But it occurs to me that the real distractions that we
12:36:36 have on the road now are not outside the car, so if you
12:36:42 are looking outside the car at who is standing on the
12:36:44 side of the road and the median watching the traffic
12:36:47 lights, you are going to be a better driver than if you
12:36:49 are texting.
12:36:49 So maybe we need the distraction on the road to make us
12:36:53 keep our eyes on the road.
12:36:55 So I really think if we were really concerned about
12:36:58 public safety we would look into what we can do about
12:37:02 having less of that going on.
12:37:05 And the other thing that really occurred to me from
12:37:08 what a couple people said was that this Barbara Jean
12:37:15 Lorenzo who was saying she's trying to be charitable
12:37:18 and give, but she's being, you know, it's the drivers
12:37:21 behind her honking and feel she's feeling like she
12:37:25 can't stop and do that.
12:37:27 Really, we have had all these bicycle accidents
12:37:30 recently, these deaths, and it's because people in cars
12:37:35 have an attitude that even though, you know, you are in
12:37:39 your car, and you are protected, you are protected
12:37:42 from, you know, much more protected than a panhandler
12:37:47 or bicyclist or pedestrian.
12:37:49 But because you are in your car on the road, you need
12:37:53 to realize that you are still part of the society
12:37:57 that's commuting, and that you do need to look at who
12:37:59 is outside your window and what you are doing.
12:38:02 So I think, you know, really attitudes of drivers need
12:38:06 to change a little bit.
12:38:07 And I'm in this position all the time.
12:38:11 You drive on Kennedy and Dale Mabry, go through that
12:38:13 intersection all the time, and I feel really bad if I
12:38:17 don't stop or if I -- I can't usually don't have change
12:38:21 or money there that I can give to someone, but you know
12:38:24 As one of the people said here, you can either give or
12:38:27 go by.
12:38:27 So I hope the people that are out there on the street
12:38:30 realize that some of us would like to be charitable
12:38:32 every time, but we can't physically can't necessarily
12:38:35 do it.
12:38:36 Others don't feel that it's safe.
12:38:39 I think that I have never had the experience of anyone
12:38:42 being aggressive other than looking at a sign, and I
12:38:47 have to tell the guy who has the sign that says I'm
12:38:50 being honest.
12:38:51 Sometimes honesty is the best policy.
12:38:54 If you are going to spend the money on beer they are
12:38:56 probably not going to give you any money.
12:38:58 I want to say one other thing to councilman Miranda.
12:39:00 If we are not able to stand on the road with our signs
12:39:04 when we are running for reelection, we may not get
12:39:07 reelected and we may be out there panhandling.
12:39:11 [ Laughter ]
12:39:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, you are not going to like what
12:39:18 I am going to say.
12:39:19 That may not be a detriment to the society.
12:39:21 [ Laughter ]
12:39:22 But let me say this.
12:39:27 I didn't secretary second that motion by Mr. Caetano
12:39:29 because didn't include me.
12:39:30 It didn't include me.
12:39:31 It gave the elected officials, all those individuals
12:39:36 seeking office, a right to do something they don't have
12:39:42 a right to do.
12:39:43 You may be giving out envelopes to collect something.
12:39:46 But do we have a problem?
12:39:47 I think we do.
12:39:48 I really sincerely think we do.
12:39:50 It has a different effect, a on different people, and
12:39:53 I'm sure some people cut through just do not see that.
12:39:58 They miss a lot of businesses are not in favor of it.
12:40:03 I can see both sides of the issue.
12:40:06 Is it a safety issue? I believe it is.
12:40:10 Have there been some minor accidents?
12:40:12 Maybe so.
12:40:13 Has there been any major accidents?
12:40:15 I haven't recalled of any.
12:40:17 That doesn't mean it won't happen.
12:40:19 So what I'm saying is, there's a movement between the
12:40:23 cities, the three cities in Hillsborough County and the
12:40:25 government, to come up with a conclusive answer on how
12:40:30 to solve these problems.
12:40:31 I don't want this to last 90 days or 60 days.
12:40:34 But I believe within 307 days that somebody could come
12:40:37 up with some idea.
12:40:40 It happened when it went to the courts.
12:40:42 And it struck down something that was working, like
12:40:45 usually happens when it goes through courts.
12:40:47 So, I mean, look at the Taj Mahal.
12:40:51 When we voted on it, it was 48 million.
12:40:55 I better not get a traffic ticket.
12:40:57 I'm going to pay for this.
12:40:59 So what I'm saying is, it's incumbent upon us to do at
12:41:05 the time to realize if there is a problem, there is a
12:41:11 Are you the solution to the problem?
12:41:14 Are you the one causing the problem that are in this
12:41:17 I don't think so.
12:41:18 But how do I differentiate, because I can't.
12:41:21 I was told by the legal department, I can't pick and
12:41:25 choose on who I want.
12:41:26 And the low fruit is gone.
12:41:29 It's all high fruit now.
12:41:30 So what I am saying is, it's going to be very
12:41:33 difficult, unless there's a comprehensive thing in the
12:41:38 county, and, more importantly, it is enforced.
12:41:44 Like Reverend Scott said, the chairman, he knows of
12:41:48 various places in the county.
12:41:53 It's not enforce.
12:41:54 I see hundreds of signs on the right-of-way.
12:41:56 They have don't belong there.
12:41:58 Pick them up.
12:41:59 You all hear me?
12:42:01 I don't care who they belong to, me included.
12:42:03 So what I'm saying is, it's got to change.
12:42:06 And until we all work together, it won't change.
12:42:09 You want this to stop?
12:42:20 Vote yes.
12:42:21 Plain and simple.
12:42:22 Business is removed because they have in a customers or
12:42:24 the product is not good enough or it has whatever
12:42:26 But if you continue to give, this will continue to be a
12:42:31 I hate to put it in those terms.
12:42:32 But that's the only way I can put it.
12:42:34 That's a fact.
12:42:35 That's a reality.
12:42:36 That is the truth.
12:42:40 So if this is what we are heading for, I agree with
12:42:43 everything that was said.
12:42:44 I would have seconded Mr. Chairman Caetano's motion but
12:42:46 the motion wasn't broad enough it was very narrow where
12:42:50 we could do something you couldn't do and I always said
12:42:52 government should not be able to do something its own
12:42:54 citizens can't do.
12:42:58 And that's why I didn't second the motion.
12:43:00 But I have simple think for you.
12:43:01 But also realize that there is a serious problem.
12:43:05 And the whole country, not only here.
12:43:07 This is nothing new.
12:43:10 This isn't the whole country.
12:43:12 And crime has no fences.
12:43:15 It's very different.
12:43:16 I have taken too much of your time.
12:43:18 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Councilwoman Capin and then we need to
12:43:23 get out of here.
12:43:25 >>YVONNE CAPIN: On speaking on the politicians and
12:43:28 their soliciting, the reason that that motion cannot go
12:43:32 there is because of free speech.
12:43:36 Free speech allows on sidewalks unions, protestors,
12:43:41 picketers, et cetera.
12:43:46 That is why that motion should not include that
12:43:52 And that's all I have to say.
12:43:54 Thank you.
12:43:55 >>THOMAS SCOTT: I'm not sure that's true.
12:43:56 I think the county has no solicitation at all, period,
12:43:59 in terms of signs and all that.
12:44:02 Am I right?
12:44:05 >>CHARLES FLETCHER: The county prohibits any
12:44:06 advertisement targeted towards the people on the
12:44:09 roadway, standing within, I believe, four feet of the
12:44:14 So I guess you could stand with your political signs
12:44:19 beyond four feet from the roadway, but not immediately
12:44:24 adjacent to the roadway.
12:44:25 And if council's pleasure was to go that direction,
12:44:27 certainly we could draft something consistent with
12:44:30 Hillsborough County.
12:44:32 >>THOMAS SCOTT: Again my position is that Hillsborough
12:44:33 County is already -- let's see what they come back with
12:44:38 in November.
12:44:39 That's my position.
12:44:40 Yes, we do have a problem.
12:44:46 Let's see what the Hillsborough County comes back with,
12:44:48 and go from there.
12:44:53 Okay, councilman.
12:44:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I would like to make a commendation
12:44:57 for Dr. Dan Arvizu, Hispanic scientist of the year
12:45:05 >> Second.
12:45:07 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor?
12:45:09 Any other new business?
12:45:11 We stand in recess until 5:00.
12:45:14 Receive and file?
12:45:15 >> So moved.
12:45:19 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second.
12:45:19 >>THOMAS SCOTT: All in favor signify but saying Aye.
12:45:22 Opposes? Stand in recess till 5:00.
12:45:25 Thank you.
12:46:01 (City Council workshop adjourned at 12:46 p.m.)
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