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TAMPA CITY COUNCIL

Thursday, September 8, 2011
Special Called Workshop


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11:15:33 >>MARY MULHERN: This is a Tampa City Council special called

11:24:20 workshop meeting.

11:24:21 We are a little behind schedule.

11:24:23 We were hoping to start at 10:00.

11:24:26 It is now 11:25.

11:24:28 I am going to -- we are going to outline the process for

11:24:33 this meeting, because this is not a regular council meeting.

11:24:37 It's a special called workshop that council has scheduled.

11:24:44 And after roll call we are going to go over the process, and

11:24:48 council is going to let me know how we can proceed as far as

11:24:55 the busy agenda that we have for today.

11:24:57 So roll call.

11:24:57 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.

11:25:01 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.




11:25:02 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.

11:25:03 >>HARRY COHEN: Here.

11:25:04 >>MARY MULHERN: Usual, part of our rules is we break at

11:25:11 noon.

11:25:11 But we don't have to do that.

11:25:13 We are going to have a discussion about that.

11:25:16 Our first item on the agenda is the citizens task force will

11:25:26 appear and make a ten minute presentation on alternatives to

11:25:29 incarceration of street solicitors in the event of adopting

11:25:35 a street solicitation ordinance.

11:25:37 I want to make clear to everyone here that this workshop is

11:25:41 not about council's action or discussion of a street

11:25:49 solicitation ordinance.

11:25:51 That is the second thing on our agenda.

11:25:53 So there will be an opportunity for the public to speak

11:25:57 after we have our scheduled presentation.

11:26:00 And for council to discuss this.

11:26:02 But we are only talking about the subject of this proposal,

11:26:09 which will involve -- it does involve a little more than

11:26:15 just if we adopt the street solicitation ban because we are

11:26:18 going to be talking about some of the big issues to do with

11:26:24 homelessness and joblessness in the city and in the country

11:26:29 right now.

11:26:29 So if you are here to speak specifically on panhandling or

11:26:34 solicitation, that will be in the second workshop agenda.




11:26:40 And I don't think there is anyway we will get to that before

11:26:43 we break for lunch.

11:26:44 So now I would like to -- normally, we give 15 minutes for

11:26:55 public comment on each item.

11:26:57 It would be very helpful to all of us if the people who wish

11:27:00 to speak to this first item on the agenda, not on

11:27:03 panhandling but anything to do with this possible proposal

11:27:07 for alternatives to incarceration, and dealing with

11:27:12 homelessness and unemployment.

11:27:14 Please stand up now if you want to talk on this first item

11:27:17 so we get an idea of how many people are here hoping to

11:27:19 speak on that.

11:27:21 Councilman Suarez.

11:27:22 >>MIKE SUAREZ: May I make a suggestion?

11:27:25 Since we do have a lot of folks here, here for the 10 a.m.

11:27:29 meeting, probably to speak specifically about the

11:27:32 solicitation ordinances, maybe we can take public comment

11:27:35 for item number 2 first before we go on to item 1.

11:27:39 I'm not sure if that would be the pleasure of the council,

11:27:41 but it may be a little bit of an easier process.

11:27:44 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilman Cohen?

11:27:47 >>HARRY COHEN: There may not be a whole lot of public

11:27:49 comment on item 1.

11:27:50 But perhaps we could deal with item 1, and before we break

11:27:53 for lunch make sure we take public comment on item 2.




11:27:56 >>MARY MULHERN: Let's see who is here for item number 1 and

11:28:01 that will help us figure this out.

11:28:03 >> So four people.

11:28:17 Three minutes each.

11:28:19 Staff after we hear the presentation, and I will ask you all

11:28:22 to please keep your comments -- if we have already heard it,

11:28:28 we don't need to hear it again, and we have been talking

11:28:31 about all these issues for a long time.

11:28:32 So just keep your comments brief so we can get through this

11:28:35 day

11:28:36 And be I believe Dr. Wilson is going to present his

11:28:41 presentation.

11:28:42 And while he's walking up here, council, it's possible we

11:28:46 could be done by noon.

11:28:50 We could be.

11:28:52 >> For the first item.

11:28:54 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, we will be done with presentation,

11:28:56 public comment.

11:28:56 But I don't think we will be done with --

11:29:00 >> No.

11:29:01 >>MARY MULHERN: So does council want to go past noon?

11:29:05 And, if so, when do you want to break?

11:29:11 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I would like to make a motion that we go

11:29:13 past noon and until 12:30 for this first portion, and then

11:29:16 take a break and then come back for portion number 2.




11:29:20 I'm saying that now so that those folks that have things

11:29:23 that they need to do prior to that have been a set start

11:29:26 time so that they can come back, if they want to be stay

11:29:30 here force Ft. presentation they can.

11:29:33 That may be an easier way of kind of presenting it.

11:29:35 >>FRANK REDDICK: If we are coming back, what time are we

11:29:40 looking at coming back?

11:29:42 >>MIKE SUAREZ: My suggestion is that we take -- go to 12:30

11:29:45 and then take a regular hour lunch that we typically do, be

11:29:48 back here at 1:30 and should be able to get everything done

11:29:51 before our 6:00 p.m. meeting tonight.

11:29:53 That would be my suggestion.

11:29:54 >>MARY MULHERN: So that's what we are going tore do.

11:30:00 If you are here for the solicitation ordinance, this should

11:30:06 be of interest to you, but if you need to leave, we will be

11:30:09 back to get our recommendations from our legal department at

11:30:15 1:30.

11:30:16 So if you need to leave, you can.

11:30:19 Thank you.

11:30:20 Dr. Jason Wilson.

11:30:23 >> Good morning.

11:30:25 Thanks to each of you for holding a special workshop on the

11:30:28 issue of street solicitation and arrest alternative program.

11:30:31 I thank you very much, Councilman Capin, for making the

11:30:35 motion at our July workshop to have this ten-minute




11:30:38 presentation.

11:30:39 My name is Jason Wilson, an attending emergency medicine

11:30:43 physician at Tampa General Hospital and associate research

11:30:45 director of medicine at University of South Florida.

11:30:48 I'm coming to you today as a representative of a citizens

11:30:50 task force that was formed based off of a concern for the

11:30:55 prospect of criminalizing homelessness.

11:30:58 I don't represent any professional homeless provider

11:31:02 organization.

11:31:03 And if you go to the Elmo, you can see the other members of

11:31:06 our list that we are made up of.

11:31:09 Truly a citizen group.

11:31:10 Nereta Cormier, a teacher at Plant High School, Pat Kemp, an

11:31:25 attorney, and Sara Romeo of Tampa crossroads. We have met

11:31:28 with pretty much every homeless provider in the city of

11:31:28 Tampa, the coalition, other partners.

11:31:29 We ourselves are a citizen group who have sought to come up

11:31:33 with an alternative to criminalization of homelessness

11:31:36 during a difficult economic time.

11:31:38 We feel that during this period of time in the City of

11:31:40 Tampa, we are going through a very difficult economic

11:31:43 recession.

11:31:45 Hopefully it will shall the worst economic recession I see

11:31:47 in my lifetime.

11:31:48 And this period of time calls for-us thinking outside the




11:31:53 box and special creative solutions to a difficult problem.

11:31:58 The last homeless count had over 17,000 homeless individuals

11:32:01 counted.

11:32:03 People who are in doubled up housing and don't have a house

11:32:07 of their own.

11:32:08 We feel this changes the ballgame a little bit for what the

11:32:11 rules should be in responding to that, specifically an

11:32:14 epidemic if it was in the medicine world.

11:32:16 We call this an epidemic of homelessness right now.

11:32:19 I gave each of you a copy of this PowerPoint.

11:32:23 I didn't want to break the rules on the Elmo here.

11:32:30 I'm already past the 48 hour time line.

11:32:33 Why are we coming to you today for arrest diversion programs

11:32:38 are? We are coming dab --

11:32:39 >>MARY MULHERN: Dr. Wilson, because you're so call and soft

11:32:43 spoken, can you maybe raise the mike a little bit?

11:32:46 >> Is that better?

11:32:48 >>MARY MULHERN: That's better for me.

11:32:50 >> Can everybody else on council hear me? So we wanted to

11:32:53 come to you today because following my presentation, council

11:32:57 will consider a number of different street solicitation

11:32:59 ordinances.

11:33:01 We feel that while panhandling is a separate issue to

11:33:06 homelessness, it is a symptom of homelessness, a symptom of

11:33:09 an underlying problem, the tip of an iceberg of a bigger




11:33:13 problem.

11:33:13 And because of that, and because of the fact there's a lot

11:33:15 of public concern about this problem right now, it seems to

11:33:20 make a lot of sense to come at the same time to the

11:33:23 panhandling ordinance and is being discussed to discuss a

11:33:28 arrest diversion in case that ordinance is passed.

11:33:31 And so that's why we are here today.

11:33:33 In other words, in my line of work it doesn't make much

11:33:35 sense to treat the symptom if you are not going to treat the

11:33:38 disease itself.

11:33:39 That's what we are asking council to do.

11:33:41 >> When we started exploring ideas for arrest diversion in

11:33:51 the case of a street solicitation ordinance, it really was a

11:33:54 group of citizens in the City of Tampa.

11:33:57 We sought out to get input from all the homeless coalition

11:34:01 providers and professionals, who know a lot more about

11:34:05 homelessness than I do, and we basically started a small

11:34:08 group that's grown larger and larger as we met with more

11:34:11 people.

11:34:13 There is people we met with in the coalition, partners that

11:34:16 we have been able to bring into this loop, include

11:34:19 Hillsborough County homeless coalition of Hillsborough

11:34:21 County, the Metropolitan Ministry Salvation Army arm, and

11:34:26 other partners, we talked were the Tampa Police Department,

11:34:28 Hillsborough County sheriffs depth office, so we talked




11:34:30 better this idea of the number of people involved, as we

11:34:34 talked with more and more people.

11:34:35 And way present to you today is two months worth of those

11:34:39 discussions and those meetings with people who work with

11:34:42 homelessness every day for a living, and working with us as

11:34:49 a citizen group.

11:34:50 What we are trying to do, what I am presenting to you today

11:34:52 is an arrest diversion program that creates a one-stop shop

11:34:55 for homeless services.

11:34:57 In other words, if the street solicitation ordinance we

11:35:02 don't know where we are going to take people who have

11:35:03 violate that ordinance.

11:35:04 At the same time that brings up a bigger question of where

11:35:06 are we going to take people that don't have any other place

11:35:08 to go to begin with.

11:35:10 While our homeless coalition partners do a very good job of

11:35:13 providing specific services to specific population it is

11:35:16 population is going to be most affected by the street

11:35:19 solicitation ordinance, one that's very underserved, and

11:35:22 that is mostly made up of single individuals.

11:35:25 We have to find something to do to help us, that regardless

11:35:29 of the street solicitation ordinance during economic

11:35:31 recession, we have to find something to do to help those

11:35:34 people who have fallen off of the margins.

11:35:37 So we think that a one stop shop triage type facility of




11:35:41 homeless services would allow people to leverage their

11:35:44 resources, each of the partners to leverage their resources

11:35:46 in a way to get the best economic bang for their buck.

11:35:49 It would also allow each homeless person to go to be a

11:35:52 facility, and find what services they qualify for, and then

11:35:56 have a place to stay while they wait for placement in those

11:35:58 services if that's appropriate.

11:36:00 So what I would like to do with the remaining few minutes I

11:36:03 have is talk with you about a model that we have examined in

11:36:06 another county, and then how we think that model might work

11:36:09 here in the City of Tampa.

11:36:15 What we don't want to do is compete with other agencies.

11:36:19 We don't want to take away resources from agencies that need

11:36:22 resource it is most.

11:36:23 So we have really tried to work on a proposal that is in

11:36:26 line with the goals and other agencies, in line with the

11:36:28 goals of law enforcement to divert people from a jail

11:36:34 system, court system, in line with the goals of homeless

11:36:39 coalition to reduce the number of people over a ten-year

11:36:42 period of time.

11:36:43 So we really are working to leverage resources, and dovetail

11:36:47 into the efforts of other groups that are already working on

11:36:50 these problems.

11:36:52 One question I have been asked before is whether or not

11:36:55 there's a role for the city in doing something like this.




11:36:59 It's a city involvement, social services.

11:37:02 I would like to point out that the city does administrator

11:37:04 the CDBG funds which go to social services and the city does

11:37:08 a very good job with that.

11:37:11 Other cities, smaller size even have been departments of

11:37:13 social services.

11:37:14 We don't need a department of social services.

11:37:17 We have the organizational structure in this city right now,

11:37:20 through boards and our department, to make use of these

11:37:22 resources.

11:37:24 I would just echo Councilman Montelione's comment earlier.

11:37:28 What we need is a conduit for professional grant writing,

11:37:30 and we need a conduit to compete for the funds that are

11:37:33 already there.

11:37:34 We don't want to tan things from the CDGB pie.

11:37:38 We want to expand that pie, make a larger pie for everybody

11:37:41 and could probably do that better if we create this conduit

11:37:44 for those fund.

11:37:44 There's also funds that we don't compete for, the Department

11:37:47 of Justice, and other federal organizations as well.

11:37:50 So we want to only compete for new resources and not take

11:37:54 away resources from those who need those resources the most.

11:37:58 We don't need more bureaucracy to our government.

11:38:01 We simply need to take advantage of use being appropriate

11:38:04 people in the government to do this.




11:38:08 And I think another thing, too, is that we are coming to you

11:38:12 today because not only the panhandling ordinance or street

11:38:15 solicitation ordinance on the table, but others are happy at

11:38:18 the same time as well.

11:38:19 Our city will be in the national spotlight next August, and

11:38:22 I think it's imperative that we show the nation who we are,

11:38:26 the Republican national convention comes, not show the

11:38:29 nation what we want to be but show the nation who we are,

11:38:31 and who we are as a city that can deal with a public safety

11:38:35 issue by addressing the issue itself, but also addressing

11:38:42 empathy to people affected by that issue.

11:38:44 So I think not only is there potential funding there with

11:38:47 the national Republican convention coming, there's

11:38:49 imperative for us as a city to be ready to demonstrate who

11:38:52 we are to the rest of the world.

11:38:53 So what I will do now is take you through a model that I

11:38:56 just looked at with members of the organization, and that

11:39:04 model is an arrest diversion program that exists over in

11:39:07 Pinellas County.

11:39:08 The model in Pinellas County called project save harbor is

11:39:12 very similar to a model seen in other parts in the country,

11:39:15 mainly San Antonio and Miami-Dade county.

11:39:17 The same consultant worked on all of those different

11:39:20 programs and they have been very successful in San Antonio,

11:39:23 Miami-Dade.




11:39:24 Pinellas safe harbor opened recently last January, and when

11:39:31 it opened, it met a lot of controversy.

11:39:40 They have the leadership of the sheriff's office there.

11:39:42 And it takes one person to say I am going to get this done

11:39:44 and make this happen.

11:39:45 And when Pinellas safe harbor old, it is a facility that's

11:39:50 located in the city of Largo, and provides numerous services

11:39:55 at one location, something that our city does not have.

11:39:58 It allows the different coalition partners of the homeless

11:40:01 coalition there in Pinellas County to be bring their

11:40:03 resources to that location, or to connect clients to be

11:40:06 providers, in a more efficient way.

11:40:15 When Pinellas safe harbor opened, it was supposed to be

11:40:18 available 24 hours seven days a week, and it's available all

11:40:21 the time.

11:40:22 People can come to Pinellas safe harbor on their own or

11:40:25 through an arrest diversion.

11:40:28 The public defenders office is involved, the sheriff's

11:40:29 office is involved, there is kind of both nodes of the

11:40:35 algorithm before you are booked, after an arrest, or other

11:40:40 ordinance violations or just afterwards.

11:40:42 You have opportunities to go to be Pinellas safe harbor.

11:40:45 It's available 24 hours a day.

11:40:52 It represents a cost savings to the county and would

11:40:54 represent a cost savings to the City of Tampa and to




11:40:57 Hillsborough County as well.

11:40:58 To put somebody in jail for $126 a day in the hospital is

11:41:02 over $600.

11:41:03 We face commonly law enforcement not having the tools to

11:41:07 transfer people to appropriate places and bring them to my

11:41:10 hospital and putting them in the emergency department.

11:41:13 That is a very expensive and inappropriate place to house

11:41:16 people, and we are not able to connect people to the

11:41:19 services they need.

11:41:20 This represents a much more cost effective alternative to

11:41:23 that.

11:41:26 In addition I would like to point out Pinellas safe harbor

11:41:30 has been very effective of in reducing the number of people

11:41:33 who end up in Pinellas County jails.

11:41:34 (Bell sounds)

11:41:35 That also represents a cost savings, and also allows

11:41:40 reduction of people to be end up in hospitals as well.

11:41:44 The Pinellas safe harbor opened.

11:41:48 It quickly worked to make itself not just a drain on county

11:41:51 resources but also a self-sufficient program, solar panels

11:41:57 to pay their utility bills.

11:41:59 One of the novel things about Pinellas safe harbor is that

11:42:02 it's a shelter that --

11:42:05 (Bell sounds).

11:42:06 >>MARY MULHERN: That's your ten minutes.




11:42:07 But how much more time do you think you need are?

11:42:09 >> Three.

11:42:10 >>MARY MULHERN: Can we give him another three minutes?

11:42:13 >> I appreciate it.

11:42:14 Thank you.

11:42:15 Pinellas safe harbor allows their residents to leave their

11:42:19 belongings behind when they go to look for a job each day.

11:42:22 That's something we don't have here in the City of Tampa.

11:42:24 This allows people to leave their belongings behind each

11:42:27 day.

11:42:28 Food is provided by Metropolitan Ministries.

11:42:30 It allows us to leverage food in one location.

11:42:34 That's something that the city is struggling with now.

11:42:37 We don't do a very good job of leveraging our feedings in

11:42:40 one location each day.

11:42:41 Therefore people, it's difficult for homeless individuals to

11:42:44 find the feedings and typical for providers to provide the

11:42:48 most cost effective means for those individuals.

11:42:51 A group like the Tampa family health center would be able to

11:42:56 provide a medical van, has a mobile medical area as well.

11:43:04 The living conditions in Pinellas safe harbor are clean and

11:43:06 neat.

11:43:06 This is the women's living facility that you see here.

11:43:10 Funding comes mostly from federal sources.

11:43:12 The amount of funding that comes from the city itself is




11:43:14 very small, represented here on this slide, about $100,000

11:43:20 from the city.

11:43:20 The rest mostly comes from federal sources.

11:43:25 Over the past couple of months our group has talked with

11:43:27 numerous providers, and we have found out a few things that

11:43:32 all these providers have in common, and the first thing is,

11:43:37 we have to have more beds.

11:43:38 We need more beds.

11:43:39 And the problem is that you can't simply expect more beds to

11:43:43 appear at the facilities that already exist.

11:43:46 There's no room for them and the neighborhoods won't accept

11:43:48 it.

11:43:49 So we can't just hope that we can put more beds in

11:43:52 facilities that are already there.

11:43:53 So we need more beds.

11:43:56 They currently don't have space for those beds.

11:43:58 While panhandling and homelessness are separate issues, what

11:44:01 we think is that while this is in the public perception, we

11:44:04 have a short window of time to act, on actually contributing

11:44:09 to the resolution of the disease, not just the symptom.

11:44:15 So our proposal is that we need to locate a facility that

11:44:18 can operate 24 hours a day, allow law enforcement to bring

11:44:23 individuals to that facility, allow our providers to also

11:44:30 bring people to the facility for more permanent placement

11:44:32 into their programs.




11:44:33 It would be a triage model, assessment area for homeless

11:44:36 services, a one-stop-shop, if you will.

11:44:39 People can get Social Security cards, driver's license,

11:44:43 other forms of ID, other things they need to get back on

11:44:46 their feet, and give us a centralized area of feeding, allow

11:44:49 utilization of resources in a very effective way.

11:44:53 So what we need first and foremost, support of providers,

11:44:58 which I think we found through hard work over the past

11:45:00 couple of months.

11:45:01 We need the support of city and county government.

11:45:03 We definitely need a facility.

11:45:05 And we need funding.

11:45:07 So the next steps will be to work harder to collaborate with

11:45:13 another program going on at the county level.

11:45:15 There's a mental health program at the county level.

11:45:18 I think that's very different than our program.

11:45:20 Our program targets all individuals for homeless service

11:45:24 assessment.

11:45:27 A small subpopulation of individual.

11:45:30 30 second.

11:45:31 And help with businesses as well.

11:45:38 What we are asking you for is to help us find a facility to

11:45:43 create a triage assessment model that we have in mind so we

11:45:45 are going to need help doing that.

11:45:47 We are also going to have to have funding options.




11:45:49 We are going to need funding for this.

11:45:52 In the research we have done, we think there will be funding

11:45:54 available through CRA, through other federal programs in the

11:45:57 future, through CDBG fund, so there probably are funding

11:46:02 options available that we are not competing for right now.

11:46:05 And then what we ask is that any street cessation ordinance

11:46:11 that you consider today consider the underlying disease as

11:46:14 well.

11:46:14 I think that's an important imperative of a street

11:46:17 solicitation ordinance, that we also consider ways to deal

11:46:20 with homelessness in our city as well.

11:46:23 And finally we would like to come back on the 22nd of

11:46:26 September, provide an update to you as to where we are at

11:46:30 the present.

11:46:31 So thank you very much.

11:46:31 Sorry I went over time.

11:46:33 I could take questions if you have them.

11:46:35 >>MARY MULHERN: Can I suggest that because you have been

11:46:40 working on this with a lot of us, the organizations and the

11:46:44 providers that are here and want to speak, that we hear from

11:46:48 them, and then after we hear from each of them, and if

11:46:52 council can ask them questions as they are speaking, but

11:46:55 then you can come back and you will -- we would all have

11:46:59 heard from everybody, and then --

11:47:02 >> Okay.




11:47:03 >>MARY MULHERN: So thank you very much.

11:47:12 Come forward if you wish to speak on this.

11:47:14 >> Okay.

11:47:25 >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.

11:47:30 This is a special called workshop on the proposal that we

11:47:33 just heard.

11:47:35 And we are only speaking to that item right now.

11:47:37 >> I'm Ed Tillou.

11:47:42 I ever spoken on this matter several times.

11:47:44 And I'm very familiar with alternatives, because in studying

11:47:48 engineering, also medicine, public health, as far as things

11:47:51 I've studied, safety, it's always a matter of providing

11:47:55 alternatives.

11:47:58 With respect to this whole matter, I have said often of that

11:48:07 I had the intent to write the Vatican most of all about

11:48:11 diocese of Orlando doing something about the fact that

11:48:14 church members are not allowed to feed people, even though

11:48:18 they are in Orlando.

11:48:18 But the die a sis of St. Petersburg also maybe needs to be

11:48:22 alerted to the first amendment from a slightly different

11:48:27 contained of way than ACLU often does.

11:48:30 This is the overlap of free speech and freedom of religion.

11:48:35 And I for instance heard about this meeting from someone, I

11:48:38 heard it from Mr. Reddick.

11:48:39 That was a church person that told me about this to come




11:48:43 here.

11:48:44 People going to go to lunch.

11:48:47 I haven't had breakfast.

11:48:48 I come a long way to make these -- to speak.

11:48:53 I haven't written these letters yet because I have been

11:48:56 doing what I am supposed to be doing, researching a novel

11:48:59 I'm trying to read -- to write.

11:49:02 And what that novel has required me to do is something I

11:49:06 have avoided for many years.

11:49:09 Looking into the French revolution and Napoleon which will

11:49:13 be about 40% of my novel.

11:49:15 Now, as I go over the French revolution, I am continually

11:49:19 amazed at what we have now, like, for instance, the second

11:49:25 member of the committee of 30 has come on board.

11:49:28 That's Warren buffet.

11:49:29 The first person to come on board with this was Bill Gates'

11:49:38 father.

11:49:38 Now, these little pieces of Napoleon, you have the rich not

11:49:46 paying enough taxes, and if we have maybe more people paying

11:49:50 their shares in taxes, we'll have more alternatives, because

11:49:55 employment hasn't been one of the alternatives for many

11:49:58 people these days.

11:50:03 There's always fallacies of logic at work, like somehow

11:50:07 police time will be saved.

11:50:10 (Bell sounds)




11:50:11 But what about crime increases?

11:50:14 That will use a lot of police time.

11:50:16 Safety, some motorist was distracted by a panhandler, and

11:50:23 there was an accident, and right away the panhandler was

11:50:27 blamed, rather than scrutinize more.

11:50:30 >>MARY MULHERN: Sir, we are not discussing that right now.

11:50:33 >> Well, what I am saying is that there's a whole framework

11:50:38 involved here, in which people have to be provided

11:50:41 alternatives.

11:50:42 (Bell sounds).

11:50:43 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

11:50:47 Next.

11:50:47 >> Good morning members of the council.

11:50:53 My name is Rayme Nuckles, Homeless Coalition, 25 North

11:51:00 Nebraska.

11:51:01 Just to kind of point out a couple of things Dr. Wilson has

11:51:05 met with members of the coalition, several of the

11:51:09 executives, also did meet with him.

11:51:11 We have had some great meetings and discussion with this.

11:51:17 I want to remind you that many of the things that are being

11:51:19 discussed with regard to this alternative is part of the

11:51:23 ten-year plan that we published in 2002, and hopefully this

11:51:34 citizens task force process will move into implementing

11:51:38 something that will assist the members in this community

11:51:42 that are homeless but one of the things I did want to point




11:51:47 out to you is that with the homeless prevention and rapid

11:51:52 rehousing funding that was provided, the stimulus package

11:51:56 from the City of Tampa, we have been able to assist with all

11:51:59 of our partner organizations over 325 household in this

11:52:03 community.

11:52:04 90% of those were stabilized into permanent housing while

11:52:09 10% of those were stabilized into transitional housing, and

11:52:15 I think that goes to the success of our current organization

11:52:18 and the hard work that they are doing, but I do want to

11:52:22 remind you that most of the organizations who are working

11:52:27 diligently to meet the needs of this community with regard

11:52:30 to homelessness are maxed out with regard to the case

11:52:35 managers that they have on staff, the funding that they

11:52:37 have, and implementing a new process like this will involve

11:52:43 additional resources to meet that need.

11:52:45 Thank you.

11:52:45 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

11:52:50 >> Morris Simpson, Metropolitan Ministries, 2002 North

11:52:55 Florida Avenue.

11:52:58 I just come before you to commend Dr. Wilson's team for what

11:53:06 they are setting forth, and to pledge as I have in the past

11:53:12 before the council that Metropolitan Ministries and many

11:53:16 other agencies like us certainly stand ready to be

11:53:20 cooperative and partner together that we may address not as

11:53:29 Dr. Wilson has referred to has just symptoms and things but




11:53:34 actual people.

11:53:35 The line in patch Adams' movie where Robin Williams says

11:53:40 something like this:

11:53:42 When you treat the disease, you often always lose.

11:53:46 But when you treat patients, you always win.

11:53:48 And I think if we can make this about the people that are

11:53:53 homeless and the people that are struggling with joblessness

11:53:56 and all, I think we can come together and focus on that and

11:54:00 feel connected as a community rather than just talking about

11:54:04 an issue.

11:54:07 One comment I want to make is that we do believe in

11:54:10 collaborative partnerships, and we would certainly encourage

11:54:14 the city and the county and the agencies be, as well as the

11:54:20 corporate faith and university and health care facilities

11:54:25 all come together, and make this thing work.

11:54:29 I traveled to San Diego this summer and visited a couple

11:54:36 projects there.

11:54:37 I was in San Antonio and visited their project.

11:54:42 You are all familiar we've safe harbor, which we are

11:54:44 involved with, and there are not Utopias out there, but

11:54:51 there are people that have the right principles and the

11:54:55 right approach to be try to alleviate the suffering that's

11:54:57 going on.

11:54:59 Be and so I just want to commend City Council for making

11:55:03 this a priority, and we pledge Metropolitan Ministries and




11:55:09 our support we will do what we can to work together to bring

11:55:13 resolution.

11:55:14 Thank you.

11:55:14 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

11:55:18 >> Tom Atchinson, 1511 East Bougainvillea, pastor of New

11:55:24 Life Church of God and founder of New Beginnings of Tampa.

11:55:27 We have about a 35-bed emergency shelter, and also 100-plus

11:55:32 beds for formerly homeless veterans, and we have a special

11:55:36 women's veterans program.

11:55:39 This is a great program, but we do need to -- I believe

11:55:45 there is a sleeping giant out there that we really do need

11:55:48 to address.

11:55:49 There are many great organizations in Tampa that are in the

11:55:51 forefront, but there are many, many faith-based

11:55:55 organizations, many churches out there that are doing a

11:55:57 great job in a smaller way, trying to meet the needs of the

11:56:01 homeless.

11:56:01 And to help them.

11:56:04 But there's no collaboration between a lot of the smaller

11:56:07 agencies.

11:56:08 They are kind of just out there.

11:56:09 So I would like to also see, in addition to what Dr. Wilson

11:56:14 has been talking about, there would be more of an element of

11:56:17 bringing in some of the smaller ones, some of the people

11:56:19 that are out there trying to do their job.




11:56:21 Obviously, we all know that the majority of people on the

11:56:25 street, a lot of them are just a pill away from being

11:56:29 mentally able to handle a job and do what they need to do.

11:56:33 Most of them have drug and alcohol problems.

11:56:35 If we stop the feedings out there, and we pass the

11:56:39 panhandling ordinance, which I think is a great idea, that's

11:56:42 not going to solve the problem.

11:56:44 That's just going to make it worse, if we don't go ahead and

11:56:47 take some actions at instituting some program, some support,

11:56:52 and also the collaboration that is needed between not just

11:56:56 the main organizations in Tampa, but several organizations,

11:57:00 faith-based originals out there that really just need to be

11:57:03 coordinated, need a little bit of help, a little bit of

11:57:07 support tore bring them onboard with us.

11:57:09 Thank you.

11:57:09 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

11:57:12 Councilman Suarez?

11:57:13 >>MIKE SUAREZ: If you could remind the members -- members

11:57:17 of the audience that we are dealing with issue number 1.

11:57:19 Because I have seen people starting to get up.

11:57:21 If there's anybody that wants to talk about this particular

11:57:24 issue.

11:57:26 >>MARY MULHERN: Right.

11:57:27 We are talking about the proposal for arrest diversion, and

11:57:31 about services for homelessness.




11:57:36 >> Patricia Kemp, 5018 Seminole Avenue in Tampa.

11:57:41 Thank you all so much for doing this workshop this morning.

11:57:43 I think it's so important.

11:57:45 Also, I want to say that Candy Olson, I saw her outside,

11:57:49 sends her regrets.

11:57:50 She wasn't able to stay to make comment herself.

11:57:53 These comments are mine.

11:57:54 I know we are going to hear much about panhandling, and we

11:57:58 have heard some about homelessness, and the connection

11:58:02 between the two, and they are not the same thing.

11:58:05 But they are related, and I think of it like a diagram with

11:58:09 overlapping circles.

11:58:12 Several of the issues, joblessness, low-paying jobs, lack of

11:58:16 affordable housing in our community, and substance abuse,

11:58:19 lack of education in training job skills, transportation, or

11:58:23 lack thereof.

11:58:24 The number one need right now in Hillsborough County is

11:58:29 beds.

11:58:29 We need beds.

11:58:30 And anybody who says that that's not the number one need is

11:58:35 really not dealing with what's out there on the streets.

11:58:38 We have 17,000 people in this county who find themselves

11:58:41 homeless each night, 1500 beds, which from what I understand

11:58:46 has been approximately the same for the last ten years, and

11:58:48 I think not providing more beds doesn't fill a critical need




11:58:53 in this county.

11:58:55 Providing beds is compassionate and humane in terms of

11:58:58 resources and how to spend our dollars.

11:59:00 It costs less than homelessness and mental illness and

11:59:04 sometimes saves and changes peoples lives.

11:59:08 This City Council cannot do this alone.

11:59:11 The county commission is absolutely an important partner in

11:59:15 tackling this problem in Hillsborough County, which is so

11:59:17 critical right now.

11:59:19 I have been through the safe harbor shelter in Pinellas

11:59:22 County and talked extensively with other whose have much

11:59:25 more knowledge than me about homelessness and the kind of

11:59:28 things that people are facing.

11:59:30 We need a safe harbor in Hillsborough County.

11:59:33 That is, we need a place that has something like the

11:59:36 approximately 300 beds that safe harbor has, that has

11:59:39 one-stop shopping with social services, caseworkers, medical

11:59:43 services on-site, that's open 24/7 that provides people with

11:59:47 three good meals a day, a place where people can leave their

11:59:51 belongings during the day, and begin to deal with the issues

11:59:57 that are facing them and why they are homeless.

11:59:59 I would like to recognize Pinellas County sheriff Jim coats

12:00:03 in Pinellas for having the vision, the leadership, the

12:00:07 compassion, the common sense to open, to be behind a place

12:00:10 like safe harbor, in what was a former jail.




12:00:13 That's what safe harbor was, a former jail.

12:00:19 I urge each of you to visit safe harbor.

12:00:22 My hope is that each of the county commissioners will do so,

12:00:26 also, and that we will have more leadership in the form of

12:00:30 an individual group of people who can bring something like

12:00:34 safe harbor to our community here.

12:00:36 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

12:00:38 >> Good afternoon, council members.

12:00:45 I'm Mike Doyle, a resident of South Tampa, and a volunteer

12:00:51 member of the homeless coalition of Hillsborough County.

12:00:56 You have heard the comments before about faith-based

12:00:58 organizations.

12:00:59 I'm a member of a very large faith-based organization in

12:01:02 South Tampa.

12:01:02 I'm very interested in working, helping and collaborating in

12:01:07 that area.

12:01:07 I also want to offer a reminder to all of us that the truest

12:01:11 test of a society is how they treat most marginalized, most

12:01:16 vulnerable citizens.

12:01:18 Thank you.

12:01:18 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

12:01:21 >> My name is Francine Simmons, and I guess I am here as a

12:01:30 provider.

12:01:32 As you may know, my then 16-year-old son started a homeless

12:01:36 outreach, across the street, until the city decided to put




12:01:44 restrictions on that.

12:01:46 And we all completely understand that.

12:01:49 Because our police and our city officials serve all, not

12:01:53 just homeless or mentally -- anyway, this idea is so great.

12:02:01 As a small, you know, volunteer-based outreach system

12:02:06 serving homeless, whether it be food or clothing or

12:02:10 materials that they need, personal products, or just

12:02:14 companionship.

12:02:15 We can't do that on city grounds without a permit.

12:02:19 Completely understood.

12:02:19 But when we reach out to our private churches or businesses

12:02:26 to ask for their permission, they are not willing to do it.

12:02:32 This is such a great idea because there are so many people

12:02:34 and so many groups that want to reach out, and they can't.

12:02:38 They have been held back.

12:02:40 Please, think about this hard and strong.

12:02:43 This is such a great idea.

12:02:45 And I would also recommend Dr. Wilson and team, talk with

12:02:49 your Parks and Recreation Department here in the city.

12:02:52 They have great ideas, lots of experience, and great ideas.

12:03:00 Thank you.

12:03:00 >>MARY MULHERN: If there's anyone else who wishes to speak

12:03:02 on this, please come and stand up and be ready, because we

12:03:06 are running over and have more people speaking than we

12:03:11 expected.




12:03:12 We didn't budget our time that way.

12:03:14 So just please stand up now if you are planning to speak and

12:03:17 if you are able to stand up.

12:03:18 Next.

12:03:19 Thank you.

12:03:19 >> Good afternoon.

12:03:23 My name senior Roy McCraney.

12:03:26 I have been a resident of Tampa since 1953.

12:03:29 If you do your math that's a total of 58 years.

12:03:32 And I never heard or seen anything like what's been going on

12:03:36 around Tampa recently in regards to people at the

12:03:40 intersections panhandling.

12:03:41 I call these people professional panhandlers.

12:03:44 >>MARY MULHERN: Sir, we are not discussing that right now.

12:03:48 That's going to be at 1:30 we are going to come back and

12:03:52 talk about that.

12:03:52 >> Well, I think there's a distinction between homelessness

12:03:56 and panhandling.

12:04:01 I think it's an eyesore.

12:04:02 >>MARY MULHERN: Sir, sir, thank you.

12:04:04 We are going to be discussing that at 1:30.

12:04:07 If you want to come back and talk about panhandling.

12:04:10 Thank you.

12:04:15 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Do we need a motion to go back past our

12:04:18 schedule?




12:04:19 >>MARY MULHERN: We are going to 12:30 with our discussion.

12:04:22 Thank you.

12:04:22 Unless you have something to say.

12:04:24 >> About 1:30 then?

12:04:26 >>MARY MULHERN: Come back at 1:30 and you can have your

12:04:30 say, your three minutes.

12:04:31 Thank you.

12:04:31 >> Thank you.

12:04:32 >>MARY MULHERN: Next.

12:04:36 >> My name is Mary Lynn Ulrey, CEO at Dacco at 4422 east

12:04:43 Columbus drive.

12:04:44 I live at 3612 Southwest Santiago in Tampa.

12:04:47 I'm here because I certainly support Dr. Wilson and the

12:04:52 group, the community group that got together, their

12:04:56 proposal.

12:04:56 There is a flagrant fallacy that there are services

12:05:01 available into Dacco or north side or HC.

12:05:08 We are really stripped right now of being able to be provide

12:05:10 additional services without some more help.

12:05:12 And we need to just make that clear.

12:05:15 We certainly support the idea.

12:05:16 We certainly want to be part of it.

12:05:18 When you talk about case managers coming and helping, 50% of

12:05:22 the people that you would have shelter life would have

12:05:25 substance abuse or mental health issues.




12:05:27 So I want to mention that because I'm a realist.

12:05:30 We already provide more than a million dollars in services

12:05:34 that are unfunded at this point at Dacco.

12:05:37 Just to let you know where that is, we certainly want to be

12:05:40 part of this.

12:05:41 The other thing I wanted to mention is that -- I think

12:05:48 that's it.

12:05:49 Thank you.

12:05:49 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you very much.

12:05:57 Council, I think Mr. Wilson, if you would like to come up,.

12:06:02 Does council have questions for him?

12:06:08 Councilman Suarez.

12:06:11 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Hi, Dr. Wilson, how are you?

12:06:15 Good to see you.

12:06:16 First, I want to applaud you and your entire group in trying

12:06:19 to solve something that is seemingly unsolvable.

12:06:22 [ Applause ]

12:06:23 And that wasn't a applause but thank you very much for

12:06:29 applauding him.

12:06:30 It shows a lot of hard work and knowledge has gone into this

12:06:32 but I do have been somebody questions specifically to be

12:06:34 what you have said.

12:06:38 I know the facts are in spot.

12:06:41 I think this last figures I heard was there was about 17,000

12:06:44 homeless at any one time during any day during the week.




12:06:48 That's a lot of people.

12:06:50 And we know that we do not have a lot of beds in this

12:06:53 community.

12:06:55 Some of the things that have been happening at Pinellas safe

12:06:57 harbor, I want to be ask you about, because I have looked at

12:07:00 the total number that you had on the funding and it looks

12:07:02 like it's about 1.2 something?

12:07:06 I was looking at your numbers.

12:07:08 I want to make sure we were right on that.

12:07:11 Because most if not all of it is federal funding, what is

12:07:16 your perception and what's the perception of some of the

12:07:19 professional groups that you have talked to about the lack

12:07:22 of federal funding that may not be coming our way because of

12:07:26 budget impasses up in Washington, D.C.?

12:07:30 >> So I think that right now, even though we have been

12:07:37 fortunate with funding, we can do better.

12:07:39 And is it going to be better in our community commission?

12:07:43 Yes, it's going to be difficult to believe do better.

12:07:44 So that's why I think one of our priorities has to be that

12:07:47 we need -- attack and be as aggressive as possible.

12:07:53 We are not going to get fund without a conduit.

12:07:55 If we don't have the entity in existence, then we can't get

12:07:58 the funds for that entity.

12:07:59 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Let me ask you a structural question because

12:08:03 that does kind of lead into our next question.




12:08:05 The structure for safe harbor includes county, cities, and

12:08:11 some of the providers doing it.

12:08:15 It seems to me what you are saying is that the city is a

12:08:18 stronger conduit or abettor access point for these federal

12:08:22 dollars as opposed to a coalition of providers.

12:08:26 Is that correct?

12:08:28 >> I think the city is one place we have to start.

12:08:31 And I think that eventually we have to have a coalition of

12:08:34 multiple municipalities.

12:08:38 When I look at the people I need to talk with to bring into

12:08:41 this, there was a huge list of people, community people at

12:08:45 the county level and it has to start somewhere.

12:08:47 I thought it was imperative to have the city on board when

12:08:50 we go to the county and tray to come up with a group

12:08:52 together to go after those fund.

12:08:54 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Because one of the things, it begs the

12:08:58 question when you look at this, these are probably -- and I

12:09:01 may be wrong about this, community grants from across the

12:09:04 country, you know, what makes us different than other cities

12:09:07 or other nonprofits that are going after the same dollars.

12:09:10 And because the federal money is shrinking, you know, is

12:09:15 having the city and county involved more important?

12:09:18 My guess is it would be, than to have just a group of

12:09:22 individual providers coming together as a coalition

12:09:25 provider.




12:09:25 >> Right.

12:09:27 So I think bringing in people like the public defenders

12:09:30 office, the sheriff's office and other people in the

12:09:32 municipality of the county, it's critical.

12:09:34 The public defenders office and sheriff's office are two

12:09:36 great examples.

12:09:37 There are things that we just don't do right now, that they

12:09:39 can compete for grants for if we did.

12:09:41 And that's what's happened over in Pinellas County.

12:09:44 The grants from the department of corrections, the

12:09:46 Department of Justice, have funded a large part of this

12:09:48 program.

12:09:49 And we just don't do those programs right now.

12:09:51 It not that we don't any arrest diversion.

12:09:53 They do a great job of arrest diversion.

12:09:55 There's other things we could do that would make us

12:09:59 competitive for those funds.

12:10:00 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Madam Chair, if you don't mind I have just

12:10:03 one more question, kind of a two-part question.

12:10:05 You know, your last -- one of your last frames, it says what

12:10:09 we need is a facility and funding, which, you know, those

12:10:12 are the two big nuts to make, okay.

12:10:15 Have -- two things.

12:10:17 Have you looked at what kind of funding that you would be

12:10:21 asking from the city for as an amount?




12:10:24 Obviously I know that's difficult because you have to cobble

12:10:29 together all these federal dollars in there, and we see what

12:10:31 the amount is from the city of St. Petersburg.

12:10:33 And we have a very tight budget, as you know.

12:10:35 Then secondly, have you all looked at a facility and where

12:10:38 it's located?

12:10:39 Because choosing a facility becomes another political issue,

12:10:43 as I'm sure you understand, and understand what happened

12:10:46 with sacred heart church and some of the folks that we are

12:10:50 trying to put together a homeless coalition then a few years

12:10:55 back with the county.

12:10:56 So what have you found out ever?

12:10:58 >> Let me say a couple things about that.

12:11:00 First of all, these ideas aren't brand new.

12:11:03 We don't just make these ideas up.

12:11:05 These are smart people who have been working on these things

12:11:07 for a long period of time.

12:11:09 We are trying to coalesce them together right now.

12:11:11 So the idea of a site and facility has been brought up

12:11:15 before, and it didn't work ten years ago, five years ago,

12:11:18 but there are is a very different time right now.

12:11:20 The pressure is there right now, and the situation is there

12:11:22 right now, because people are suffering so much.

12:11:24 So I think in that respect, reexploring the issue is fair

12:11:28 game.




12:11:29 Now, there are facilities, I think, that we have to think

12:11:32 B.one of the facility when we started this sort of -- it was

12:11:35 obvious to us that we look at was the old orient road jail.

12:11:39 And it is no longer going to be used as a jail.

12:11:42 It's only going to be used as a booking facility.

12:11:44 And the Pinellas safe harbor site was an old jail as well.

12:11:47 We will certainly aren't proposing we ship homeless people

12:11:50 off to have a jail.

12:11:51 We are trying to decriminalize this.

12:11:53 So it be takes two make it feel like they are not in jail.

12:11:56 There's some problems with that H.we went to the sheriff's

12:11:58 office, and we went to Sheriff Gee and talked to him about

12:12:01 the jail.

12:12:02 There are some technical problems with the jail that make it

12:12:04 a little different than Pinellas County that makes it a

12:12:06 difficult site.

12:12:07 The sheriff's office is supportive and is helping us with

12:12:10 sites right now.

12:12:11 But what we really need now is to reach out to the jail site

12:12:15 and reach out to the city to help us find sites and the

12:12:18 private business as well.

12:12:19 We would like to not -- to make the least possible cost for

12:12:24 the city, we don't want to spend money on cap tam if we

12:12:27 don't have to, on the building itself if we don't have to.

12:12:29 We don't want to spend money on transforming this facility.




12:12:33 That we don't have to spend.

12:12:35 The so the closest building that is ready to go.

12:12:39 An old hotel site, places like that make great places for

12:12:43 it.

12:12:47 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Again, thank you very much for working on

12:12:48 this on your very valuable time.

12:12:52 One of the things you mentioned, and it was the

12:12:55 incarceration amount, the dollars that it cost to arrest and

12:13:00 incarcerate.

12:13:02 If this ban is passed.

12:13:04 And I believe your intent is less than 126.

12:13:08 It might be 100.

12:13:09 And I have been here a little over a year on council.

12:13:17 This is my fifth meeting that will be coming up next.

12:13:23 And the very first meeting, I brought up the very issue of

12:13:27 how much it costs, and we need to look at it, to arrest and

12:13:33 incarcerate someone if this is outlawed.

12:13:38 I was looking out for the taxpayer.

12:13:42 And amongst other things.

12:13:48 You have people that are constantly picked up at the rate of

12:13:53 $100 each.

12:13:56 It can get very substantial.

12:13:58 That's one thing.

12:13:59 We need to ask you, do you know the size of the building in

12:14:03 Pinellas, the square footage?




12:14:06 >> I don't remember off the top of my head.

12:14:08 I can get it to you.

12:14:09 It had a court yard facility and women's area and men's

12:14:13 area.

12:14:14 Together they can house about 350 people safely and

12:14:17 comfortably.

12:14:18 We have the square footage.

12:14:21 I don't know off the top of my head.

12:14:22 >> The other thing that I would like to maybe look at -- I'm

12:14:28 sorry, we don't have the buttons to our legislative aide.

12:14:32 So the only way we can communicate is to call, but that's

12:14:38 okay, I've got it.

12:14:43 I want to maybe -- I did ask for parcels of property prior

12:14:50 to this, that I thought of an area that I felt might be --

12:14:58 that the city owns.

12:15:00 And I did receive that.

12:15:02 But I would like to make a formal recommendation that maybe

12:15:08 this might be a way to look at this is that the children's

12:15:12 museum is there because the city provided the land, and then

12:15:18 the fund were brought up.

12:15:19 I know it's a longer process than finding a building, and

12:15:23 the issue is now.

12:15:25 But that might be a way of public and private together

12:15:29 making something like this happen.

12:15:34 I would like to look at it maybe after more questions are




12:15:39 asked, is for the city to maybe bring forth what parcels we

12:15:45 do own, that maybe this would work on, or even if it's land

12:15:50 that maybe we can again do a partnership, just as the

12:15:55 children's museum was done.

12:15:59 The city did donate that land to them.

12:16:01 So this is just, I feel, just as important if not -- well,

12:16:09 not more important but just as important.

12:16:11 The children are very important.

12:16:14 That's just one of the things.

12:16:17 What I looked at was along 30th street, 30th Avenue,

12:16:23 around the Crosstown, because I happened to go to the

12:16:25 citizens police academy, and was driving by there all the

12:16:30 time, and thought that there is really -- one of the issues

12:16:35 we had before was the neighborhood's proximity to when they

12:16:40 tried to set up a shelter.

12:16:45 But this area is pretty isolated, but at the same time has

12:16:49 access from the expressway and close to police.

12:16:56 So I did ask about that property.

12:16:59 But I would really rather make it more formal.

12:17:03 So I will wait till the other questions, and then maybe add

12:17:06 to it to see where we are at.

12:17:09 Thank you.

12:17:10 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Hi, Dr. Wilson.

12:17:17 And thank you for the work you put in.

12:17:20 I know you have a really tight schedule to spend this amount




12:17:22 of time along with the others is really a tremendous effort

12:17:25 that you have put forth.

12:17:26 I do have a few questions.

12:17:28 We did talk prior to your embarking on this two-month

12:17:34 investigation into the issues.

12:17:36 But I hadn't been briefed on this, so excuse me if I ask

12:17:39 some questions that may seem basic.

12:17:43 But who operates Pinellas safe harbor?

12:17:46 What is the entity?

12:17:47 >> The sheriff's office.

12:17:48 >> The sheriff's office does.

12:17:49 And you have had conversations with Hillsborough County

12:17:51 Sheriff Gee?

12:17:52 >> We have.

12:17:53 >>LISA MONTELIONE: He's and he's supportive of this had.

12:17:56 >> He's supportive of the concept of this.

12:17:58 >>LISA MONTELIONE: So with Pinellas safe harbor it's a

12:18:01 collaboration really between government entities.

12:18:04 There isn't a lot of private enterprise money or private

12:18:08 donations coming in?

12:18:10 >> There is some now.

12:18:12 Over the past month or two, some has started to come in.

12:18:15 When start-up hand during this thing when that began, there

12:18:18 really wasn't much at all.

12:18:19 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Okay.




12:18:22 Has your group met with the mayor's office?

12:18:24 >> Not directly.

12:18:25 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I suggest that something that you do,

12:18:29 because although we can, as a council, make recommendations

12:18:35 or look for funding or ways of bringing funding forward, if

12:18:43 we are asking for any budget fund we need to have the

12:18:45 support, both of council and the administration to make

12:18:48 something happen.

12:18:51 So that have been will be the suggestion that I would make.

12:18:53 The CDBG funding, I talked about this, and talked about this

12:18:57 and talked about this.

12:18:59 It's a competitive application process.

12:19:02 So, you know, when we get into -- and I think it's coming

12:19:06 up.

12:19:06 >> We are just right off cycle this last time.

12:19:10 Right after we had talked, the letter that you guys have to

12:19:12 go to the federal agencies, that's been done, so we are just

12:19:16 a little off cycle.

12:19:17 >> That's the next cycle coming up.

12:19:19 It in the immediate future.

12:19:21 So we need to -- if you are going to move this forward and

12:19:25 request CDBG fund, that's got to be looked at right away.

12:19:29 And I'm sure you can meet were staff and they can help with

12:19:32 that process.

12:19:32 There was one thing that you said that I do want to make




12:19:39 clear, that we are not taking this action because of the

12:19:42 2012 RNC coming to Tampa.

12:19:45 >> That's right.

12:19:45 >> I want to make that abundantly clear, because tieing the

12:19:50 two together even in the same paragraph kind of gives me the

12:19:54 chills.

12:19:55 But, you know, I want to make that clear.

12:19:57 >> For our group, this is about a situation we see every

12:20:00 day, either in our lines of work.

12:20:03 There's 500 homeless children in school districts right now.

12:20:07 I brought a teacher to the table.

12:20:09 The buff constituents obviously struggling as well.

12:20:13 >> And Councilman Suarez and Councilwoman Capin have been

12:20:16 already brought up the location.

12:20:19 And that is difficult.

12:20:20 And I was going to talk about the locations of Hillsborough

12:20:22 County Hillsborough been done a number of years ago but they

12:20:27 have already done that for me.

12:20:28 And there is -- there are always has to be a lead agency,

12:20:34 and it typically has to be someone or an entity that has

12:20:37 been in business, as a lead agency identified?

12:20:41 >> Well the homeless coalition has been supportive.

12:20:44 We want to work closely with them with whatever we do next.

12:20:47 >> I don't know if it's appropriate at this time to ask.

12:20:51 Mr. Knuckles a question.




12:20:53 >>MARY MULHERN: It's appropriate but we have nine months

12:20:55 left.

12:20:55 Not everyone on council has spoken.

12:20:57 We have to decide.

12:20:59 We are going to break at 12:30.

12:21:01 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I just have a couple more questions,

12:21:05 since the homeless coalition is here.

12:21:07 >>MARY MULHERN: Well, if council is willing to, and you are

12:21:11 willing to go past 12:30, we are going into our lunch hour.

12:21:15 So do you want to come back?

12:21:21 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I'm willing to give ten more minutes if

12:21:23 that's okay.

12:21:23 >>LISA MONTELIONE: We are going to go ten more minutes?

12:21:27 >>MARY MULHERN: An extra ten minutes.

12:21:28 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Some sort of consensus and announcement.

12:21:33 >>MARY MULHERN: We are going to go an extra ten minutes.

12:21:36 >>MARTIN SHELBY: What time will you then recess?

12:21:38 >>MARY MULHERN: We will recess at 12:340 ho and be back at

12:21:41 1:30.

12:21:42 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Can I ask Mr. Nuckles a question,

12:21:48 please?

12:21:49 Thanks for being here.

12:21:54 So in the presentation, there was a reference to be a couple

12:21:57 of meetings that had taken place with the homeless

12:22:02 coalition.




12:22:04 As a representative of the homeless coalition can you please

12:22:07 give me your summary of those meetings and your assistance

12:22:10 and how the homeless coalition -- this is part of the

12:22:13 ten-year plan.

12:22:14 So how does this fit into the plan, and what are the steps

12:22:17 being taken to move this forward?

12:22:19 >> Well, a one-stop center has been a part of the ten-year

12:22:23 plan since inception in 2002 when Mayor Greco asked us to

12:22:29 put that together.

12:22:30 And so be this process, Dr. Wilson did meet with the

12:22:37 coalition in August and September, at our coalition

12:22:41 meetings.

12:22:41 We had a group of CEOs from several of our providers that

12:22:46 met separately to come up with some things that they kind of

12:22:51 agreed on, and he outlined all of those that we agreed upon

12:22:56 during his presentation.

12:22:57 So.

12:23:01 >> Was there any hesitation?

12:23:03 Because I would like to hear, you know, if we are going to

12:23:06 embark on this process, I want to gone into it knowing all

12:23:09 of the things we might come across and be hit with.

12:23:15 So is there any concern?

12:23:17 I know again with Pinellas safe harbor there were a lot of

12:23:20 concerns in the beginning.

12:23:21 So I want to vet those now.




12:23:23 >> Absolutely, absolutely.

12:23:26 Dr. Wilson, when he made his first presentation to the

12:23:30 membership, there was probably 100 of our members there in

12:23:34 attendance that day.

12:23:35 We spent over an hour, probably discussing that specific

12:23:40 topic.

12:23:44 Of a loud member feedback.

12:23:45 Some of the concerns consisted with things which Mary Lynn

12:23:51 had just discussed about the process of not having enough

12:23:54 funding for additional case managers.

12:23:56 So that was a very large concern, that opening a facility,

12:24:03 we can't expect that our local nonprofits who are already

12:24:08 delivering service can have case managers go there without

12:24:11 additional funding to do that.

12:24:14 Because we are at capacity already in the community.

12:24:17 That was a major concern.

12:24:19 Another concern was just the fact that with Pinellas County

12:24:27 government actually operating the center, not necessarily

12:24:31 understanding the full funding within the process and saying

12:24:39 that 1.2 million may be able to do that for this community,

12:24:43 it may not work it may cost us more in Hillsborough.

12:24:50 And in other communities like Miami-Dade and Broward County,

12:24:55 it is very similar to what Councilwoman Capin had suggested,

12:25:01 that city government actually owns the property.

12:25:04 They lease to the a nonprofit for a year, and that's a




12:25:08 dollar a year.

12:25:10 So there is definitely different types of opportunities for

12:25:13 partnerships.

12:25:17 As a coalition we stand ready to assist in any way that we

12:25:20 possibly can.

12:25:21 And I think, if I am not mistaken, those were the specific

12:25:24 issues that were raised.

12:25:26 >>LISA MONTELIONE: And the Homeless Coalition has taken

12:25:32 lead and you will be the lead agency should we go forward

12:25:34 with some recommendation today?

12:25:39 >>RAYME NUCKLES: If you make a recommendation the coalition

12:25:41 will take the lead with regard to the collaboration

12:25:43 component.

12:25:44 We'll look for a partner who will then manage the facility

12:25:48 and operations of the program.

12:25:50 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you very much.

12:25:52 That's all the questions I have.

12:26:01 >>YVONNE CAPIN: (off microphone)

12:26:04 We are one year away from that ten year.

12:26:06 How close are we to a facility, a one-stop?

12:26:11 >> We are not any closer than we were when we developed the

12:26:14 plan in 2002.

12:26:16 >> So we can start from a new ten years, right?

12:26:22 We can start.

12:26:24 Okay.




12:26:24 Thank you.

12:26:24 >>MARY MULHERN: (off microphone).

12:26:34 >> You're welcome, thank you.

12:26:46 >>MARY MULHERN: ... with the sheriff.

12:27:04 The mayor has their proposal, their original proposal.

12:27:07 They have met, I'm sure, with all of us.

12:27:12 And really, from my understanding, got -- and from what Mr.

12:27:18 Nuckles just said, unanimous support for this concept.

12:27:25 So the things that we are talking about today, it boils down

12:27:29 to very simply what Mrs. Kemp said and what pretty much

12:27:35 everybody said.

12:27:36 We need beds.

12:27:38 We need a site.

12:27:39 We need 24 hours.

12:27:41 We need triage or one-stop shop where people who are taken

12:27:50 to be this facility, should we find a way to make it happen,

12:27:55 have somewhere to sleep, to eat, and to get steered into the

12:28:03 services that are out there.

12:28:04 So I can tell you from having talked to the sheriff, they

12:28:12 are 100 percent behind this and want to work with us.

12:28:19 Dr. Wilson did mention that he also met with Tampa Police

12:28:22 Department, and they are 100 percent behind this.

12:28:26 This council asks all of them to have do this, and we are

12:28:32 behind it.

12:28:33 And the mayor, I spoke with the mayor yesterday, and the




12:28:39 mayor is going -- has agreed to help us find a site, to

12:28:48 speak with the sheriff, to speak with the county commission,

12:28:55 which I think we will also do, I'm sure, if we take some

12:28:59 action.

12:29:44 Isn't this what Mrs. Capin suggested, private sector, that

12:29:47 we find staff, and whether there's a building there or not.

12:29:56 We all know that's what we need, and we all have to be able

12:29:59 to work together.

12:30:01 So I do have to be say we have been talking about this

12:30:12 problem, first in the context of solicitation and the

12:30:14 pressure for council to do something about it.

12:30:16 Then in the context of our wanting to address the disease

12:30:22 and not just the symptom.

12:30:24 We have been talking about it for a year.

12:30:26 And I know that I have offered to work on this with the

12:30:35 county commission, and maybe someone will formalize that are

12:30:39 we need the county commission to work with us, because they

12:30:44 have their sources of funding, and they have more of a

12:30:50 structure.

12:30:50 One other thing I really wanted to say because I think this

12:30:53 has come up as a concern.

12:30:55 We need this to happen.

12:30:57 It has to happen through a coalition.

12:31:02 The homeless coalition, the perfect person to be try to

12:31:08 perhaps at least work on the development of the project and




12:31:15 the funding.

12:31:16 Who end up administering the site is a question of where the

12:31:20 site end up.

12:31:22 And there are providers that may even have space that we

12:31:29 don't know about.

12:31:30 So that's all in the future.

12:31:31 But I do not believe -- and I want to a sure he special

12:31:35 reply the mayor of this, that we are not asking to create a

12:31:38 new department, a new bureaucracy, a new service agency

12:31:42 within the city.

12:31:43 We are asking for the city to help with finding a site,

12:31:50 fund-raising, and with all of our grant opportunities.

12:31:56 And that's the other thing I want to say.

12:31:58 Then I think Councilman.

12:32:00 >>HARRY COHEN, did you change your mind?

12:32:02 >>HARRY COHEN: Yes, briefly.

12:32:03 >>MARY MULHERN: So this mayor and I think we heard today

12:32:10 from Councilwoman Montelione, or someone mentioned to you,

12:32:13 but we need to be applying for and have a better process for

12:32:17 getting federal grants in this city.

12:32:20 And I think the mayor has told me he's committed to that,

12:32:24 and I think council is.

12:32:25 So we don't even know what's out there at this point as far

12:32:28 as what our resources could be, to contribute to funding.

12:32:36 Councilman Cohen.




12:32:36 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you.

12:32:37 I just want to very briefly add to what Councilwoman Mulhern

12:32:41 just said in relationship to 2001 specific items.

12:32:45 The first is the county commission.

12:32:49 I have been contacted by commissioner Murman, who assures me

12:32:53 that there is a real desire to do something about this on a

12:32:58 countywide basis, and that they want to work with us to try

12:33:00 to find a joint solution.

12:33:02 I believe that the county administrator has been contacted

12:33:07 about this, and that there is going to be a joint effort to

12:33:11 look for some facilities.

12:33:12 I also want to mention that candy Olson from the school

12:33:16 board was here earlier, and she and I had some discussions

12:33:19 as we have been moving through some of these issues, and I

12:33:22 think it's very important to remember that the school board

12:33:25 can be an excellent partner with all of us, especially when

12:33:30 it comes to looking for facilities.

12:33:32 Because they, of course, have more facilities and more staff

12:33:36 than anybody in Hillsborough County.

12:33:40 So I think that those are two particular entities that we

12:33:44 can count on to work with us as we move forward.

12:33:47 One of the themes of this workshop today has been the desire

12:33:52 that we address the underlying problem and not just the

12:33:57 symptoms of the problem.

12:33:58 And I know from listening to whatever everyone has said up




12:34:02 here and listening to everyone's statements over the course

12:34:04 of the last few months that if we can get beyond some of the

12:34:07 discussions about the symptoms, we are all very committed to

12:34:11 using our time, resources and energy to work as much as we

12:34:15 possibly can on the underlying problem of homelessness and

12:34:19 poverty in this community, because we have all seen that

12:34:22 it's getting worse, and that it's becoming an acute crisis

12:34:29 on our streets and in our community.

12:34:30 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilwoman Capin.

12:34:36 And I think after that if we are going to take any action if

12:34:39 you are ready to make a motion.

12:34:41 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I would like to make it formal, get the ball

12:34:44 rolling with the City of Tampa as the leaders that we are,

12:34:47 and the strong and decent community that we are.

12:34:53 So what I would like to propose a motion that we look at

12:35:02 properties that the city owns to be begin with.

12:35:10 And hopefully that there will be something there, also with

12:35:15 keeping 30th street in mind.

12:35:18 But that's the motion I would like to make is for us to

12:35:22 recommend to the administration to please look at properties

12:35:28 that the city does own, that is something that we already

12:35:33 have, it will not be an added expense, which none of us is

12:35:39 looking for.

12:35:39 >>MARY MULHERN: When would you like them to bring that

12:35:42 back?




12:35:45 Staff report?

12:35:49 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Two weeks is the 22nd.

12:35:55 I don't have -- I'm sorry.

12:35:58 Tell me what we have.

12:36:02 Here it is.

12:36:09 >>MARY MULHERN: The regular session?

12:36:11 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Regular session, September 22nd, staff

12:36:13 report.

12:36:14 >>MARY MULHERN: Is that a second?

12:36:16 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Yes, I'll second it.

12:36:18 >>MARY MULHERN: All in favor?

12:36:20 Any opposed?

12:36:23 Any other -- I just want to say one thing that I forgot to

12:36:30 say, and Councilwoman Capin reminded me of it.

12:36:34 I just want to quote our former chair, Councilman Reverend

12:36:40 Scott, when we first started talking about this.

12:36:45 He said, you don't want to be see wanna government without

12:36:51 compassion can do.

12:36:53 And that was one of the most eloquent things I've heard.

12:36:56 And I've trade to keep that in mind P.you don't want to know

12:37:01 if your government does not have compassion what it would be

12:37:06 like.

12:37:07 And thank you so much to the group, to Jason Wilson, and

12:37:12 Narria and pat and to be Morris and to Rayme Nuckles and to

12:37:23 all the providers that have been working on this.




12:37:25 Thanks a lot.

12:37:26 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Recess till 1:30?

12:37:33 >>MARY MULHERN: We will recess until 1:30, at which point

12:37:37 we will have our second item on the workshop agenda

12:37:42 regarding the solicitation ordinance.

12:37:46 >>

12:37:49 >>

12:37:50 >>

12:37:50 >>

01:31:36 >>

01:31:37 >>

01:31:40 >>MARY MULHERN: City Council special called workshop.

01:38:39 We are going to open our second item, city staff.

01:38:58 We need to have roll call.

01:38:59 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.

01:39:04 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.

01:39:06 >>HARRY COHEN: Here.

01:39:07 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Here.

01:39:07 >>MARY MULHERN: Assistant city attorney Rebecca Kert is

01:39:14 going to provide us with a report.

01:39:18 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.

01:39:21 I previously provided you with a memorandum that contains

01:39:24 the ordinances that would effectuate the three options that

01:39:28 City Council has previously discussed regarding solicitation

01:39:34 in the right-of-way and the public safety dangers.




01:39:35 The first option is briefly a ban on street solicitation

01:39:39 with an extension for newspaper sales.

01:39:41 The second option is a six-day ban on street solicitation

01:39:46 where there would be no ban on Sunday based upon some

01:39:48 evidence that was previously submitted that showed overall

01:39:51 lower accident rates on Sunday.

01:39:54 And the third option is a ban on street solicitation with an

01:39:58 exemption for newspaper sales and leafletting.

01:40:06 What it does is prevent a pedestrian from having a

01:40:09 transaction or solicitation with a motor vehicle when that

01:40:11 motor vehicle is within the traveled lane.

01:40:15 The other thing it prohibits is holding a sign if the peaked

01:40:18 is in the roadway, and the roadway is defined as shoulder to

01:40:22 shoulder including the median.

01:40:23 What it does not prohibit is holding a sign along the edge

01:40:26 of the road or any sort of solicitation or leafletting from

01:40:32 pedestrian to pedestrian.

01:40:33 We have reached all of you individually.

01:40:35 I know these are legal issues.

01:40:37 But for the record, solicitation in the right-of-way is

01:40:40 conduct that is protected by the first amendment.

01:40:45 And uphold the if it's narrowly to be a government interest

01:40:50 such as public safety.

01:40:54 They will look more closely at ordinance ifs they treat one

01:40:58 group differently.




01:40:59 Based upon conversations that City Council previously had

01:41:02 declared that newspapers are at the heart of democracy in

01:41:05 America and have been since this country was founded, the

01:41:09 struggles that newspapers have had over the last decade,

01:41:12 especially local newspapers, has been well documented, and

01:41:16 there is an important purpose in ensuring that they can

01:41:18 continue to be didn't their newspapers and in fact survive.

01:41:23 And doing research on this issue, I have found that in

01:41:26 Florida, Jacksonville has a similar exemption for

01:41:28 newspapers, and looking across the country I have found

01:41:31 other examples of jurisdictions that have banned street

01:41:35 solicitation but that ban did not apply to newspaper sales.

01:41:40 I don't have a case on point directly that either uphold or

01:41:43 has found it unconstitutional.

01:41:45 We will be making new legal arguments if in fact it's the

01:41:49 approach that City Council wants but we do have examples out

01:41:51 there, and will be prepared to defend that.

01:41:55 I do want to point out that none of the options before you

01:41:59 provides for permitting.

01:42:00 And as we previously told you, the way that the state law is

01:42:03 currently written, local governments cannot have a

01:42:06 permitting system, so state law needs to change before we

01:42:09 can take that approach.

01:42:10 You have previously had a great deal of testimony on this

01:42:14 subject.




01:42:15 And you will hear more from the public today.

01:42:18 But if City Council chooses to move forward with one of

01:42:20 these options, we will have additional testimony from your

01:42:24 staff at the second reading which is, in fact, the public

01:42:27 hearing.

01:42:28 And I'm available if there are any questions.

01:42:29 >>FRANK REDDICK: Could I ask one question?

01:42:33 I apologize.

01:42:34 I left my folder.

01:42:37 Would you just repeat the one, two, three options?

01:42:41 >> Yes.

01:42:42 Option 1 is a ban on street solicitation with an exemption

01:42:45 for newspaper sales.

01:42:46 Option 2 is a six-day ban an street solicitation with no ban

01:42:52 on Sunday.

01:42:53 And the third option is a ban on street solicitation with an

01:42:56 exemption for newspaper sales and leafletting.

01:42:59 >>FRANK REDDICK: Okay.

01:43:05 >>MARY MULHERN: Were there are other questions for legal at

01:43:10 this time?

01:43:16 Councilman cab peen?

01:43:28 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Some of these options -- I have been reading

01:43:32 these options very, very closely, and on -- I have it

01:43:38 underlined.

01:43:39 Option 2 and 3.




01:43:57 Under 2 and 3, on section 2 of the first one, ordinance

01:44:04 2011, gosh, I'm sorry to keep you.

01:44:16 >>MARY MULHERN: We could hear from the public.

01:44:19 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I need to get these in order.

01:44:21 >>MARY MULHERN: Could we have a motion to open the public

01:44:23 hearing?

01:44:24 >> So moved.

01:44:26 >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.

01:44:27 Anyone who wishes tore speak on the ordinance, now is the

01:44:29 opportunity, please come forward and speak.

01:44:34 It would help if you would stand in line or at least stand

01:44:37 up so we have an idea of how many people need to speak.

01:44:42 >> My name is Sharon dragnet.

01:44:50 I came to Tampa when I was about six years old.

01:44:53 And I have made it my home ever since.

01:44:57 I have matriculated through the Tampa schools, and through

01:45:01 Florida State University, and the University of Tampa.

01:45:11 I met and married my husband, a Tampa police supervisor, and

01:45:16 Hillsborough three beautiful children, all of whom have made

01:45:19 law enforcement their careers.

01:45:23 We have encountered many of the homeless with gaunt

01:45:28 expressions and sad eyes, the American vet, sporting caps of

01:45:35 their service, and many of their disabilities, an artificial

01:45:42 leg, a brace, a cane, and some that are simply down on their

01:45:47 luck enduring the cruelties of time that can and often




01:45:54 does -- time often offers.

01:45:58 Some are looking for work, anything, anything that are may

01:46:03 bring food to their children.

01:46:05 Some are just plain hurting.

01:46:10 Some are hot and sick from the scorching heat.

01:46:17 Some are soaked to the bones from heavy rain.

01:46:20 And some don't even know where they might lay a weary head

01:46:25 while they contemplate the uncertainties of tomorrow.

01:46:28 I have never, never experienced anything less than a sincere

01:46:37 smile or a grateful thank you and a friendly "God bless."

01:46:43 These precious people are hurting, sincerely reaching out

01:46:48 for a helping hand, for a break, even a small as it might

01:46:53 be.

01:46:55 It seems that our upper echelon wants to look down their

01:47:02 noses at these people.

01:47:03 Our politicos and city fathers are willing to sweep them

01:47:07 under the rug and wish that they would simply disappear, all

01:47:14 the while sporting a toothy grin and slapping the good ol'

01:47:20 boys on the back.

01:47:22 (Bell sounds)

01:47:22 I once saw a single mom on the street corn with two small

01:47:26 children playing next to her while she had a canister of

01:47:30 cold water and trying to sell it to motorists who only

01:47:34 stopped long enough to read her sign and then zip on home

01:47:37 for a hot dinner.




01:47:40 If Tampa is truly trying to put a good foot forward for the

01:47:46 National Republican Convention it would be more beneficial

01:47:48 to exhibit a city who extended a helping hand, a Christian

01:47:52 friendship to those in need.

01:47:53 (Bell sounds)

01:47:59 Won't be as obvious as the paint can with the broad stroke

01:48:02 of invisible paint and they don't exist.

01:48:05 I have lost my city and its people, but lately it smacks of

01:48:09 a sour taste and a sharp sting in the heart.

01:48:13 Thank you.

01:48:13 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

01:48:17 Next.

01:48:17 >> Good afternoon, City Council.

01:48:24 My name is Marlin Anderson.

01:48:27 I am the director and immediate past president of Sunset

01:48:31 Park area homeowners association.

01:48:33 I'm here to talk about the panhandling issue.

01:48:36 I do want to commend and thank all of you for your

01:48:39 demonstrated compassion and concern towards what to do with

01:48:43 the homeless here in Tampa.

01:48:46 But I do see that we are looking at passing some sort of a

01:48:49 ban on street solicitation, and I'm here to address that.

01:48:58 First of all in, January 2011, our association, the

01:49:01 membership, we had a quorum, we voted unanimously to be

01:49:05 support a St. Pete style across the board ban on all forms




01:49:09 of solicitation, so that would be include nobody can go out

01:49:13 on the street and sell stuff.

01:49:16 Or ask for stuff.

01:49:18 And I have seen -- I have been following the news, and this

01:49:25 group is going to sue if you do this and this other group is

01:49:27 going to sue if you do that, you know, and there's all these

01:49:30 things we are trying to do to try to accommodate these

01:49:33 different groups, but I think that when you look at this

01:49:37 whole thing, when they did this in St. Pete, it's not

01:49:41 singling out a group, and giving preference treatment to one

01:49:46 particular group.

01:49:47 It's just saying no solicitation on the roadways or medians.

01:49:51 And that's really what I think we need to do.

01:49:54 It's something which the ordinance, in the course before 15

01:50:01 months now, is still there, it's probably going to stay

01:50:03 there.

01:50:03 The reason why I think it's going to stay there also is

01:50:06 because it's done on a safety issue.

01:50:09 And I can tell you right now, just from my own personal

01:50:12 experience, I almost ran over a panhandler.

01:50:15 He was running across Westshore Boulevard against the light.

01:50:20 I had to slam on my brakes to miss the guy.

01:50:22 I didn't hit the guy.

01:50:23 But this will give you kind of an example that there is a

01:50:26 safety issue there.




01:50:29 So once again, I would just like to say that I don't think

01:50:32 that all these medians, we have city planners and our city

01:50:38 fathers, that they contemplate that we have every day people

01:50:40 on the streets soliciting.

01:50:42 And I don't think we should do that.

01:50:44 And, therefore, I ask that you do what St. Pete did and pass

01:50:50 an across-the-board ban on street solicitation in the

01:50:53 medians and the roadways.

01:50:55 Thank you.

01:50:55 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

01:50:57 Next.

01:50:57 >> Good afternoon.

01:51:12 My name is Ed curlin.

01:51:16 I live in Virginia park, which its leaders voted to -- or

01:51:26 are in support of a total ban.

01:51:27 But I want to ask you a few questions about this, because

01:51:31 first of all neither one of these neighborhoods, you want to

01:51:35 ask yourself what the motivation is.

01:51:37 Another one is, what's it actually prohibiting?

01:51:40 For those of you who attend church or even speak behind the

01:51:44 pulpit at church, I think you will recognize a couple of

01:51:46 these verses here.

01:51:47 Luke Chapter 11 verse 41 says give alms such things you

01:51:52 have, all things to you, versus 33 and 34, give ALMS, there

01:52:02 where your treasurer is there your heart will be also.




01:52:05 So where is your heart on this?

01:52:06 Is your heart with those who need assistance?

01:52:12 Or will you pretend that this really is a safety issue and

01:52:15 hide behind that, tossing people out?

01:52:21 This practice that you refer to as panhandling has been

01:52:23 known throughout the centuries, well before the founding of

01:52:25 this country, well before the founding of this country was

01:52:29 known as giving of alms and asking of alms, and exported by

01:52:36 Mohammed and by Moses.

01:52:38 So we are saying City of Tampa is better than all of these

01:52:41 people who call us to be generous and to give without

01:52:44 judgment directly to people who are asking for it.

01:52:49 The second question is, what will be the effect of the

01:52:52 proposed bans?

01:52:53 Any one of them?

01:52:55 You spend a lot of time and effort focusing on unintended

01:52:58 consequences.

01:52:58 What about the intended consequences?

01:53:01 What about the folks who you do aim to get rid?

01:53:05 What's going to happen to them?

01:53:06 At least in St. Pete they had the heart to put forward a

01:53:10 comprehensive solution through their shelter program and the

01:53:14 sheriff's office.

01:53:15 At least they did that before kicking people out.

01:53:19 At least there's some kind of cushion to protect them when




01:53:23 you pull out their source of income.

01:53:26 Finally the question to ask is even more swayed by

01:53:28 conservative arguments.

01:53:30 And we are talking about limited government.

01:53:32 Now we are talking about extending government into a willing

01:53:35 financial transaction between givers and receivers.

01:53:40 The concern is either the support to right to bear arms.

01:53:47 How before the right to ask for alms?

01:53:50 Where is the compassion and heart in all of this?

01:53:52 Please take your conservative ideas if you are conservative,

01:53:56 liberal ideas if you are liberal, and don't use this as a

01:53:59 way to pick on people who cannot help themselves.

01:54:02 Please show compassion and develop a comprehensive solution,

01:54:05 not something where we are just kicking people out because

01:54:08 people in my neighborhood and elsewhere feel that it's

01:54:12 unsanitary and complain it is a safety issue.

01:54:16 (Bell sounds)

01:54:17 Also, my daughter wanted to say a few words, too.

01:54:21 >> She can have three minutes.

01:54:25 >> I don't think that you should ban panhandling because

01:54:37 it's not right.

01:54:38 >>MARY MULHERN: Can you tell us your name everybody?

01:54:40 >> Julia.

01:54:41 >>MARY MULHERN: Julie.

01:54:45 What's your last name ever?




01:54:47 >> Conan.

01:54:48 >>CHAIRMAN: And what grade are you in?

01:54:51 >> Fourth.

01:54:51 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

01:54:52 >> And this says thank you and glowed bless you.

01:55:25 >>CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

01:55:25 >> My name is Kerry yeah Mel, 2433 Estrella street in Sunset

01:55:32 Park N.sunset Park we are very compassionate.

01:55:35 We care about the homeless people and the people who are

01:55:38 struggling right now.

01:55:40 That's not what this is about.

01:55:41 This is about public safety, it's about quality of life, and

01:55:46 it's about the impression that people coming to our town,

01:55:50 our city, have when they see panhandlers at every street

01:55:55 corner within a one mile radius of my house.

01:55:59 And many others.

01:56:01 I'm here on behalf of my association.

01:56:04 I'm the president of Sunset Park.

01:56:07 The association voted in January, as Marlin said, to ask

01:56:11 City Council for an all-out ban on panhandling.

01:56:16 We discussed this issue at length and all of our members

01:56:20 expressed compassion for the homeless.

01:56:23 That's not what this is about.

01:56:25 Most of the members felt like giving somebody, you know, a

01:56:29 couple of hours out your car window was not the best way to




01:56:35 help people in need.

01:56:38 It's what you talked about earlier.

01:56:40 It's developing a plan, an overall plan.

01:56:42 And I think we need to look at the other ways.

01:56:48 War the panhandlers?

01:56:49 What kind of a negative impact are they having on our city?

01:56:52 So it needs to go both ways.

01:56:55 We want to help them, but I would hope that they would also

01:56:58 look at our point of view.

01:57:00 It is scary sometimes when I drive up to the intersection,

01:57:05 and there's two guys coming up to my car, and I have got my

01:57:08 young children, and you do hear that a lot of the people

01:57:12 that heir out there have been mental health issues, so it

01:57:16 can be scary and intimidating especially at night or if I

01:57:19 have children in my car.

01:57:20 So I do think that there is a public safety component to

01:57:23 this.

01:57:26 Our membership voted unanimously to ask City Council for a

01:57:29 complete ban.

01:57:32 And as I said, our issues were public safety, leaving a

01:57:36 negative impression that people coming to our city had when

01:57:42 they saw the panhandling going on, and it's also a quality

01:57:47 of life issue.

01:57:48 So thank you.

01:57:49 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.




01:57:53 Next.

01:57:55 Please restrain your comments unless you are at the podium.

01:58:02 >> My temporary address is 4929 East 7th Avenue.

01:58:08 I want to the say to everyone have a blessed day.

01:58:12 I want to be ask this council, how many lawyers did it take

01:58:15 you before you found a shyster that would take a pack of

01:58:20 lies to take away my freedoms because of greediness?

01:58:23 The ones that I was born with and lived by for over half a

01:58:27 century and still believe in today, the ones that my

01:58:31 forefathers gave to have me to use as tools that I need to

01:58:35 pursue the decency of life.

01:58:37 It is my right to pursue my happiness by using my freedoms

01:58:42 of speech and expression as for what I do with my sign on

01:58:48 that corner.

01:58:49 A lying corrupt lawyer has worded a pack of lies to take way

01:58:52 the only means the homeless have to survive as per their

01:58:56 freedom, the beginning of downfall of America, and by giving

01:59:00 it to the rich and special interest groups like the

01:59:03 newspapers, you won't stop giving on the corners.

01:59:06 You will just be giving more.

01:59:08 But not to the people who need it.

01:59:11 To the people who don't need it.

01:59:12 And if you enact this piece of garbage to tan away my

01:59:16 freedoms, you are not a Christian.

01:59:17 America senior still Christian.




01:59:19 And if you are not, you should not be on that panel.

01:59:22 If you pass this pack of lies and do not allow the poor

01:59:26 people to live by the only means that we have for now, you

01:59:29 will be ruined by God.

01:59:31 There is no law that says that you have to be a lawyer to be

01:59:35 in politics.

01:59:36 Even I could be president if I was selected.

01:59:39 Write-in candidate.

01:59:42 Independent.

01:59:47 I can live on next to nothing and survive.

01:59:50 What could I do with a budget?

01:59:53 I know how to keep books, run computers, pinch pennies, see

01:59:58 the future.

01:59:59 I see St. Pete's future.

02:00:00 Bleak.

02:00:01 Very bleak because of the way they are treating the homeless

02:00:04 and the poor.

02:00:07 Do you want Tampa's future to be bleak too?

02:00:09 What's your definition of bleak?

02:00:11 You keep skirting the underlying cause of homelessness

02:00:15 because of greed.

02:00:19 Rent is too high.

02:00:20 It needs to be lowered, keep a cap on it.

02:00:22 Interest.

02:00:23 Big business.




02:00:23 Interest rates all need to be lowered and capped.

02:00:26 SSI needs to be raised.

02:00:29 That's how you start getting out of this depression.

02:00:31 And yes, we are in depression.

02:00:34 That market crash, the global market crash.

02:00:37 Can't you see what's going on here?

02:00:42 I challenge Christians to stand up and tell them you are

02:00:44 tired of it, too, elect honest Christians, write them in if

02:00:49 you have to.

02:00:49 Don't let these papers lie to you like they did about me.

02:00:52 I challenge Mr. Trump to come down here and buy up some of

02:00:56 these roach ridden motels that greedy landlords try to pass

02:01:00 off as dwellings and mow them down and rebuild with state of

02:01:04 art infrastructures, decent low rental housing.

02:01:08 That would create jobs.

02:01:08 (Bell sounds)

02:01:11 I'm not done but that's okay.

02:01:12 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:01:14 Next.

02:01:15 >> hello.

02:01:21 I'm Jacqueline Helfrick on behalf of many friends, relatives

02:01:29 and neighbors, and I just want to state that we are all in

02:01:32 firm agreement that we are for an all-out ban.

02:01:35 The main reason is strictly for safety reasons.

02:01:39 And I'm here to ask how I can help.




02:01:41 So I hope that's a bright spot on your day.

02:01:45 I would be happy to go around and get signatures if that

02:01:47 would help to show that I'm not here alone talking about the

02:01:51 safety issue.

02:01:53 I had several instances.

02:01:55 And I did write to everyone.

02:01:56 Does anyone remember when I wrote to you and copied the

02:02:01 mayor of St. Petersburg?

02:02:02 >>MARY MULHERN: We have gotten a lot of letters.

02:02:06 Don't feel bad.

02:02:08 >> Okay.

02:02:09 Anyhow, I have never received an answer from anyone except

02:02:13 Joseph Caetano.

02:02:14 That was the last time.

02:02:16 The second time I received no answer.

02:02:18 I did get an answer from Mayor Buckhorn and Mayor Iorio.

02:02:22 So I just wondered if you had received it.

02:02:24 Because I had so many close encounters that I had.

02:02:30 It's not my driving.

02:02:31 I have not had any accidents or speeding tickets.

02:02:34 It's just simply a matter of they scare me to no end.

02:02:38 I can't go out on any given day without having heart

02:02:43 palpitations, and that's not my old age either.

02:02:46 It's just yesterday, I had a man to come out, get to the

02:02:51 left turn lane on Gandy going to Westshore, came out and he




02:02:55 stood with two lanes going straight.

02:02:57 They are going and he's standing there weaving back and

02:03:00 forth.

02:03:01 I couldn't move.

02:03:02 I couldn't go up to get in my lane to turn because I was

02:03:05 afraid I would hit him.

02:03:07 I had one come up behind me at the gas station to ask me for

02:03:10 $40 for a hotel room.

02:03:13 And I had my hand on the gas nozzle and almost turned around

02:03:17 and shouted at him because he caught me so offguard.

02:03:21 We have been here since 1970.

02:03:23 I don't want to feel that I can't go out on our streets and

02:03:26 be safe anymore.

02:03:27 But this one yesterday was probably the worst.

02:03:31 But I have talked to many, many people, and they feel the

02:03:33 same way I do, that it's really a safety issue more than

02:03:37 anything.

02:03:38 And in my regular job I do interviews and surveys.

02:03:41 I would be happy to do it pro bono, anything at all I can to

02:03:45 help you, and I'm so glad to hear that we are talking about

02:03:49 a possible solution.

02:03:50 So does anyone have been a question for me?

02:03:53 (Bell sounds)

02:03:55 I was right on the minute.

02:03:56 That's good for me.




02:03:57 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:03:58 Next.

02:03:59 >> Susan Long, 920 broad street.

02:04:08 This is I heard from several people this is not a safety

02:04:12 issue.

02:04:12 I emailed each of you last night.

02:04:24 This is a motorcycle deputy hit by a driver hit by a

02:04:48 panhandler in the middle of the intersection.

02:04:53 Happened to be a sheriff's office on a motorcycle, when he

02:04:56 went through the intersection, he paused, told the person to

02:05:00 get out of the intersection.

02:05:02 Somebody behind him or next to him didn't realize he was

02:05:05 stopping, knocked him over, ended up in the hospital.

02:05:08 He was released the same day.

02:05:09 We were lucky.

02:05:10 I'm not sure that any panhandler is more valuable than any

02:05:13 of our police officers.

02:05:15 I would like to see them all safe.

02:05:19 I do believe, however, the idea put forth this morning is an

02:05:25 excellent idea.

02:05:26 We need a comprehensive plan to deal with those people who

02:05:28 are financially, mentally and physically unable to take care

02:05:32 of themselves.

02:05:33 I think that's a wonderful idea.

02:05:35 I also know it isn't going to happen in the next week, as do




02:05:38 you.

02:05:40 We give $3 million proposed for this next year to the Tampa

02:05:43 Sports Authority, and we have no comprehensive way to take

02:05:47 care of the needy?

02:05:50 We are spending over $100,000 a month is my understanding to

02:05:54 keep an empty building called the federal courthouse, and we

02:05:59 can't take care of the needy?

02:06:01 Where are our priorities?

02:06:02 We need to take our money and spend it on the people that

02:06:06 need the help, and at the same time prevent panhandling so

02:06:11 that not only am I not afraid to walk down the street, am I

02:06:16 not worried to have somebody step in front of my car, or put

02:06:21 a hand in front of my face at a stop sign, that these people

02:06:25 aren't going to be run over or killed.

02:06:27 The other thing I want to say is the RNC is coming next

02:06:31 summer.

02:06:31 I know what's going to happen if we don't clean this up.

02:06:34 I live in Seminole Heights.

02:06:35 It happens every time.

02:06:36 We push all the things that you don't want the outsiders to

02:06:39 see into my neighborhood, because I live on a major road in

02:06:42 the middle of the northern half of the City of Tampa.

02:06:46 Please clean it up so I don't have be to be deal with that

02:06:48 again.

02:06:48 Thank you.




02:06:48 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:06:52 Next.

02:06:52 >> Good afternoon.

02:06:59 Jim lake, 4218 west San Pedro.

02:07:02 I'm also a lawyer for "The Tampa Tribune.

02:07:04 And I want to thank you all for the time and consideration

02:07:06 you have given to this issue and to the city attorney's R's

02:07:11 office for all the time and effort that's gone into the

02:07:14 various proposals that are before you today.

02:07:16 If council's decision today is to move forward, I would like

02:07:21 to suggest that a combination.

02:07:22 Ideas that have been tried in other jurisdictions is the

02:07:25 best approach.

02:07:27 Taking ideas from Pasco County and Jacksonville.

02:07:30 Specifically, I urge you to consider options 2 and 3 that

02:07:36 the city attorney has proposed.

02:07:40 Those in my view take what's best from these other

02:07:44 jurisdictions, the experiences they have had and have found

02:07:46 effective, that combination will address genuine safety

02:07:50 concerns you have heard about, but without unduly burdening

02:07:53 activity that's not been shown to present a problem.

02:07:56 In other words, as the courts would say, I think a

02:07:59 combination of options 2 and 3 would be what the courts call

02:08:02 narrowly tailored to address the concerns.

02:08:05 The first option 2 aspect that I focus on is the Sunday




02:08:11 exception that as we heard comes from Pasco County.

02:08:15 It's supported by Florida Department of Transportation,

02:08:18 traffic, and crash statistics that I have cited to council

02:08:21 before.

02:08:23 I will hand the clerk the copy of those statistics so they

02:08:26 will be in the record for this meeting but it's the same

02:08:28 information that you have seen previously.

02:08:30 The Sunday exception that Pasco enacted also offers the

02:08:34 benefit of accommodating charitable organizations.

02:08:37 Again, on days when traffic crash statistics, roadway

02:08:42 counts, show that there's not a real danger here.

02:08:45 The newspaper exception that you have also heard about is

02:08:48 supported by Jacksonville's ordinance and by Tampa's

02:08:50 experience.

02:08:51 We have heard this morning folks recount wag they perceived

02:08:56 as problems with panhandlers, dangerous conditions, but

02:09:00 nothing, we heard nothing about charitable solicitors, we

02:09:03 heard nothing about newspaper vendors.

02:09:05 The final aspect I point out, option 3 that I think is

02:09:09 important to note is that would leave be activity when this

02:09:16 issue was last brought up.

02:09:18 I would say with a combination of those three avenues from

02:09:21 other jurisdictions, Pasco, and Jacksonville, you can solve

02:09:25 the panhandling problems that you have heard about without

02:09:31 interfering with these other legitimate activities that




02:09:33 haven't been shown to be a danger.

02:09:35 (Bell sounds)

02:09:36 And insofar as -- is there a way to measure public opinion

02:09:41 on this?

02:09:41 Well, one that I would throb out for council's consideration

02:09:44 is that 15,000 copies of "The Tampa Tribune" are sold every

02:09:47 Sunday this way.

02:09:48 That's 15,000 people at least who don't seem to have much of

02:09:52 a problem with this activity.

02:09:55 So we urge council to combine options 2 and 3.

02:09:58 Thank you very much.

02:09:58 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:10:01 Next.

02:10:01 >> hello.

02:10:07 I am Diana with the muscular dystrophy association.

02:10:11 My home address is 502 south Fremont.

02:10:14 >>MARY MULHERN: Can you give us your full name?

02:10:17 >> Diana MMacLean.

02:10:19 I reiterate some of the statements that were just said

02:10:22 before.

02:10:23 I think if these are the options that are set before us,

02:10:27 option 2 would be one of the greatest options for my

02:10:32 charitable organization, the muscular dystrophy association,

02:10:39 had a partnership for over 54 years, over 35 in Tampa.

02:10:42 They have raised over $50,000 for the muscular dystrophy




02:10:45 association which goes right back into the community with

02:10:50 research grants at USF for ALS, community research grant,

02:10:54 our clinic at St. Joseph, and our camp here in Brandon.

02:10:59 Without that money, we would not be able to do what we do.

02:11:03 A lot of people have expressed safety concerns.

02:11:05 The firefighters are trained safety professionals.

02:11:09 Since they have been doing this fill the boot drive, there

02:11:12 has never been an incident with a firefighter being injured,

02:11:15 and to my knowledge no accidents.

02:11:21 With a full ban we wouldn't be able to be on the streets.

02:11:27 A partial ban for charities would be ideal for us to

02:11:29 continue doing what we do for the community and the families

02:11:32 that we serve.

02:11:33 I also want to say that Jacksonville's ordinance does have a

02:11:38 permitting process for nonprofits.

02:11:40 In section 804.806, and so that would be obviously an ideal

02:11:47 situation.

02:11:49 A six day ban would allow us to still be on the streets on

02:11:53 Sunday if those are the options that are set forth.

02:11:56 We would obviously find to be an ideal solution.

02:11:59 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:12:00 >> Good afternoon.

02:12:08 My name is Matt McLaughlin, live at 4301 South Tampa.

02:12:16 Tampa is the city of my choice as I retired from the United

02:12:19 States Army.




02:12:19 When I arrived in Tampa, there were no panhandlers on the

02:12:22 street.

02:12:23 However, in the last five years, there has been a magnitude

02:12:27 of people panhandling on the street.

02:12:31 As far as public donations go, there are other locations and

02:12:34 other places where people can gain money.

02:12:37 I haven't seen anybody at the football games or the baseball

02:12:40 games seeking money.

02:12:42 I haven't seen anybody at public runs.

02:12:45 I haven't seen anybody at the Gasparilla functions

02:12:49 soliciting money.

02:12:51 I contribute to my churn every Sunday that I go.

02:12:53 I contribute to the Metropolitan Ministries.

02:12:57 I do not feel that it's my place to have to give money to

02:13:00 people who have do not have jobs because they are too lazy.

02:13:03 There's an organization out there, in DDU, fatigues,

02:13:11 veterans helping veterans. Stop them.

02:13:14 Ask there are them for their DD 14.

02:13:16 I have done this afternoon to eight people seven of which

02:13:19 were dishonorably discharged with the United States

02:13:21 military.

02:13:23 People who claim to be vets, not necessarily so.

02:13:26 People who have artificial limbs did not necessarily get

02:13:28 them as a result of military service.

02:13:30 They got them after military service and they are playing on




02:13:33 your heart strings as veterans dishonorably discharged.

02:13:38 I want the police to do their job and stop the people from

02:13:42 walking in the lane of traffic soliciting money.

02:13:47 If it's so important for the newspapers to be able to sell

02:13:49 on Sunday, why aren't they out there selling every day of

02:13:52 the week? Web I was growing up many of you saw young men

02:13:57 standing on the corner selling newspapers on the way home

02:13:59 and in the morning.

02:13:59 Why aren't they doing that every day?

02:14:02 They moved to automatic teller so they don't have to pay

02:14:05 people to be do that.

02:14:07 Do the newspapers pay these people to sell the newspapers?

02:14:10 I doubt it.

02:14:10 I don't think they receive benefits.

02:14:12 I don't think they receive any insurance.

02:14:14 I'm not sure how much money they get for it.

02:14:17 I believe a total ban is the only way to solve this problem.

02:14:21 And I respectfully request you all do that.

02:14:23 Thank you.

02:14:23 Good afternoon.

02:14:24 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:14:25 >> My name is Aaron Clamella.

02:14:36 And being here today I am reminded how divisive an issue

02:14:41 panhandling is.

02:14:42 People are passionate and we need to understand we may not




02:14:45 understand all the hardships we are understood.

02:14:46 But receipts remember dab this is about soliciting and

02:14:50 panhandling.

02:14:50 What we are seeing in other jurisdictions that do this is

02:14:53 there are unintended consequences of what these laws can do.

02:14:56 Organizations like mine and others, history of America from

02:15:02 the revolutionary to the tea party have gotten their

02:15:05 information out by public leafletting and public

02:15:07 disbursement.

02:15:09 Other options put forward, option 3 is the only one than

02:15:13 looks like it will still allow for that to be available here

02:15:15 in the City of Tampa.

02:15:17 And I want to encourage you to further look into that.

02:15:20 Thank you.

02:15:20 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:15:21 >> Good afternoon.

02:15:27 Thank you for taking up.

02:15:28 My name is Ann Kulig. I'm here on behalf of Westshore

02:15:33 Alliance, now with 300 member companies in the Westshore

02:15:37 business district.

02:15:38 And we have been on the record on this a number of times,

02:15:41 but we honestly believe this is a serious public safety

02:15:44 issue.

02:15:46 None of the proposals before you are asking you to ban

02:15:49 panhandling.




02:15:50 They are asking you to ban panhandling and solicitation in

02:15:55 roadways, designed for cars, unfortunately.

02:15:58 Many of the major roads that run through the Westshore

02:16:01 district are state roads.

02:16:03 You are talking six to ten lanes of traffic at major, major

02:16:08 intersections that see thousands and thousands of cars a

02:16:12 day.

02:16:12 We really think it is a public safety issue to have people

02:16:15 walking through lanes of traffic.

02:16:17 I know there are rules set forth in your current ordinance,

02:16:20 but they are not supposed to be in the lanes of traffic

02:16:23 while the light is green, but it happens all the time, and

02:16:26 you don't have enough police officers in the City of Tampa

02:16:28 to enforce that.

02:16:31 Our board voted earlier this spring, the original proposal

02:16:35 that I believe you saw in January or February, to go to an

02:16:39 outright ban on all activities and solicitation.

02:16:42 We understand there may need to be a compromise position

02:16:46 here, but we just ask you to do something.

02:16:51 We have been coming before you for two years on this issue,

02:16:55 and we ask you to please act and do something.

02:16:57 It is a serious public safety issue.

02:16:59 Thank you.

02:16:59 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:17:06 >> City Council, I know I have talked to you meantimes,




02:17:12 members of the City Council.

02:17:13 I'm Peggy Rand, 6115 schooner way.

02:17:18 I definitely would not be for option 1 as I have expressed

02:17:24 so often.

02:17:24 Option 2 or 3 would be certainly, I think, be what most

02:17:32 people -- I talked to many that wouldn't come down, but

02:17:36 people that I have known for years that have compassion in

02:17:40 this community.

02:17:43 I personally feel that it's not a safety issue as much as an

02:17:49 image issue.

02:17:50 And that has been brought out.

02:17:54 I think to ban newspaper sales would be a terrible thing.

02:18:02 I'm one that is not too good with the computer.

02:18:06 I like to get up at 5:00 in the morning.

02:18:08 I read both newspapers.

02:18:11 The people who earn their living by selling newspapers and a

02:18:19 good portion of their income, I think need to keep those

02:18:22 jobs.

02:18:22 I want to thank the City Council for taking their time and

02:18:26 not pushing this through as some of us saw you might do

02:18:33 earlier on.

02:18:33 I was almost convinced that at the last meeting there would

02:18:37 be a vote, and I was so happy to see that you have

02:18:43 considered this not only as a panhandling problem but as a

02:18:48 homeless problem.




02:18:50 And there are many of us who would like to do something to

02:18:54 resolve the homeless problem.

02:18:56 We have a plan now, hopefully, that all of us will get

02:19:01 onboard with, and that will alleviate a lot of the problems.

02:19:05 But I only say to you, I want you to continue to show your

02:19:09 compassion and your feeling for the community, as everyone I

02:19:15 have talked to on the council has done.

02:19:16 Thank you.

02:19:17 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:19:18 >> My name is Carol Cameron.

02:19:23 I live at 3316 north San Miguel.

02:19:26 First, I want to be applaud you for what you did at the

02:19:28 workshop you had this morning and looking for alternatives

02:19:31 to try to help with the homeless.

02:19:34 I think that's what we need to do.

02:19:36 But 324 beds, even though that's a start, doesn't help with

02:19:40 the 17,000 people problem that we have in the city but it's

02:19:46 a start and something we need to do.

02:19:48 However, when we talk against the panhandling, it's not that

02:19:51 we are against the people having an opportunity if they need

02:19:54 to try to go out and get money.

02:19:55 It's just doing it in the right-of-way.

02:19:57 And I think we have to be careful that we have compassion

02:20:00 for the people, but the panhandling, and when people are

02:20:04 standing in the right-of-way -- and I have had them, I have




02:20:07 seen them walk down between the lanes during the light,

02:20:10 which is really dangerous, and try to come up to your

02:20:13 window.

02:20:14 Like the one lady, sometimes I'm a little concerned about

02:20:17 that.

02:20:19 Fortunately my car locks when I put it into gear.

02:20:22 I want to have compassion but I don't want to unable them.

02:20:26 The one gentleman that quoted scripture to you, I'm trying

02:20:30 to think about wherever Jesus came upon beggars, he gave

02:20:34 them their sight, told them how to walk.

02:20:36 So I don't think that's really the issue.

02:20:38 I think the important thing is to be try to be ban the

02:20:42 panhandling.

02:20:43 I'm in support of maybe the six-day ban.

02:20:47 And banning from the right-of-way.

02:20:49 That doesn't stop them from going, and if they need to beg

02:20:52 to go to other places at the one gentleman said.

02:20:55 We have laws in this country, freedom of speech, for

02:20:59 instance.

02:20:59 But that does not allow us to yell fire in the middle of a

02:21:03 theater.

02:21:03 So you can pass certain laws against certain things without

02:21:06 it getting rid of some of the other rights of the person.

02:21:11 So if you ban the panhandling, that doesn't necessarily ban

02:21:14 their ability to go out and beg for money where it is okay




02:21:18 for them to do it where it's not going to be a safety issue.

02:21:23 One of the things I have heard that some of you have

02:21:25 mentioned is be why aren't there more people here?

02:21:28 Maybe you are thinking there's plenty of people here and you

02:21:30 have gotten lots of e-mails.

02:21:31 But we came thinking this was going to be at 10:00 and now

02:21:35 here it is 2:30, and not all the people are able to come and

02:21:40 do this.

02:21:41 So those few of us who are here and who managed to stay are

02:21:44 giving up our time to try to address this issue.

02:21:50 I think that's all that I had to say.

02:21:52 Thank you.

02:21:53 (Bell sounds).

02:21:54 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:21:55 Next.

02:21:57 >> My name is Linda Carson.

02:21:59 I'm a tax paying citizen of Hillsborough County.

02:22:02 People are begging on the streets are not distractions.

02:22:06 Be they are reminders to all of us that we have failed.

02:22:09 They are remainders of thousands of our neighbors who lost

02:22:12 their homes because of foreclosure.

02:22:13 They are reminders of large number of people who lost their

02:22:16 jobs.

02:22:16 And they are reminders that so many of the men, women and

02:22:20 children are hungry and desperate, and reminders that our




02:22:24 government has failed so many.

02:22:25 How could people call panhandling a distraction?

02:22:28 People on their cell phones and text messages are

02:22:31 distractions to me.

02:22:33 Just remember, please, that everyone on the corner, everyone

02:22:37 in their cars, living in the woods and on the streets, and

02:22:40 in tents and in shelters have been a story, and many aren't

02:22:44 much different from our own.

02:22:46 Government social services has been cut drastically, and we

02:22:49 have seen a dramatic decline in donations to our charities

02:22:53 because many of the old donors are now homeless and

02:22:56 unemployed themselves.

02:22:57 To be paraphrase Martin Luther King, our homeless people and

02:23:02 neighbors live on a lonely island of a vast ocean of

02:23:07 economic prosperity.

02:23:08 Our homeless languish on the prairies of American society,

02:23:11 on the corners which for their sakes I hope have the longest

02:23:14 red light. They are exiles in their own land, but who are

02:23:14 we but them? And to people who have the least of the least,

02:23:21 to paraphrase Dr. King again, we have a long, long road

02:23:25 ahead to get to the mountaintop.

02:23:26 I too would prefer to travel this road with no panhandlers,

02:23:32 not because we have jailed them but because we have found

02:23:34 homes and fed, and housing and food for them.

02:23:38 We have sympathy for people who lose their homes to Katrina,




02:23:43 mudslides and floods, so how about people that suffer from

02:23:45 their own permanent storms? We are all born in different

02:23:49 circumstances, but there is never a time when each of us

02:23:52 doesn't need a helping hand in one form or another.

02:23:56 With the government cutbacks and failed economy, the helping

02:23:59 hand often has become from one's self, whether a hand

02:24:05 whether stretched out at a red light or begging on the

02:24:08 corner.

02:24:09 One in every 320 housing units received foreclosure notices

02:24:11 in June 2011 in Hillsborough County.

02:24:14 We have 17,755 men, women and children that are homeless in

02:24:20 our county on any one given night.

02:24:22 We have 1,500 emergency beds.

02:24:26 That's how many we had ten years ago, by the way.

02:24:28 (Bell sounds)

02:24:30 We have a long waiting list for subsidized housing.

02:24:32 Many panhandlers are not homeless.

02:24:35 They are people living on the edge, working people who are

02:24:39 struggling not to be added to a 17,775 neighbors who have no

02:24:44 home of their own.

02:24:45 The flood of homeless people trying to survive from one day

02:24:49 to the next by begging for money is the direct result of our

02:24:52 terrible economic climate that we live in.

02:24:55 Now we are preparing to mobilize our overworked police, our

02:24:58 overburdened courts and their crowded jails to ensure the




02:25:02 poor to one of the few ways available for them to survive.

02:25:06 I want the government to use my tax dollars, please, in a

02:25:09 way that doesn't pretend we haven't failed.

02:25:12 I give you my outstretched hand and I am begging you to do

02:25:16 the right thing and not punish people who have no

02:25:19 alternative until we come up with alternatives for them.

02:25:22 Thank you.

02:25:24 By the way, it's really wonderful to have plans to go out of

02:25:31 our own community.

02:25:32 We need civic leaders that we were talking about before,

02:25:36 City Council people, concerned citizens, because we all

02:25:38 care, and we all have to come up with a better solution than

02:25:42 punishing people for being impoverished and desperate.

02:25:46 Thank you.

02:25:46 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:25:47 Next.

02:25:47 >> Good morning.

02:25:51 Spencer Kass, 1001 North Howard Avenue.

02:25:58 The City of Tampa residents are some of the most generous

02:26:03 people I know.

02:26:04 Just last night this budget passed a budget that took $5

02:26:08 million and gave to the non-not-for-profit organizations.

02:26:12 I'll put it up on the Elmo so everyone is clear.

02:26:16 That's $5 million last night you voted to give to all these

02:26:21 different organizations.




02:26:27 Our people are generous.

02:26:29 Our people care about our citizens.

02:26:30 At the same time people care about public safety.

02:26:33 TPD has come down here and said this is a public safety

02:26:36 issue.

02:26:37 Either we believe TPD or we don't believe TPD.

02:26:40 That's your decision.

02:26:41 I happen to believe TPD.

02:26:43 They say it's dangerous to. Think that TPD somehow came up

02:26:46 with some imaginary problem that doesn't exist is beyond me.

02:26:51 We have heard from the Department of Transportation.

02:26:55 They have come here, come to the county.

02:26:57 They have said the roads are not designed for this.

02:26:59 It's a public safety issue.

02:27:01 If you believe D.O.T. or you don't believe D.O.T.

02:27:03 If we don't believe these problems we have a more

02:27:05 fundamental issue in this city.

02:27:07 Nobody is against homelessness.

02:27:08 Nobody is against the newspaper people.

02:27:10 You can take two steps back other than private property and

02:27:14 any of these ordinances stop you from doing what you have as

02:27:16 long as you have the property owner's permission.

02:27:19 Tampa Tribune, "St. Pete Times," can buy all the property

02:27:22 they would like to on Dale Mabry or any of the other major

02:27:24 streets and sale their newspapers.




02:27:26 They can work out arrangements with the private property

02:27:29 owners.

02:27:30 As a small business person I can tell you, if I want to sell

02:27:32 my goods that's what you tell me to do.

02:27:35 Then you put me through six months of rezoning hearings.

02:27:37 But that's the way it works in this city.

02:27:39 I understand they don't want to gone through that.

02:27:43 Plus we are generous people.

02:27:44 We are good people.

02:27:45 This isn't about not caring about people.

02:27:47 This is about public safety.

02:27:48 And I encourage you to have TPD come up here, tell you their

02:27:52 view on this.

02:27:53 I will point out there is a fourth option which is we get

02:27:56 rid of the city ordinance altogether and do quarterback the

02:27:59 county does and work this through the county.

02:28:01 I have absolutely in a problem doing that.

02:28:03 My second choice if you have to pick something I guess it

02:28:06 would be the six day ban but if we get sued and we start

02:28:09 spending money on that, I understand council put some

02:28:13 protections and we'll let the protections kick in.

02:28:16 I would like to hear from the newspapers to be pick up the

02:28:20 city legal feelings if ultimate lip that's the decision you

02:28:22 go with because either they believe in this or they don't.

02:28:25 Thank you for your time.




02:28:26 Have a great morning.

02:28:26 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:28:30 Next.

02:28:30 >> Rayme Nuckles, 2105 North Nebraska, Homeless Coalition.

02:28:42 I thank you once again.

02:28:43 I think this bilks has been one of true diligence.

02:28:48 You are faced with very difficult decisions.

02:28:51 You hear things from neighborhood associations and different

02:28:55 issues from the social service organizations in this

02:28:58 community.

02:28:59 And I know it would be a difficult decision if I was in your

02:29:03 position.

02:29:05 It's one that we as a community are faced with.

02:29:10 I think the issue that we discussed prior with regard to be

02:29:14 the alternatives needs to be in comparison with the

02:29:19 ordinance so that we have something in place, because as I

02:29:23 have already indicated, and many of the service providers

02:29:26 have indicated, there aren't enough case managers in this

02:29:29 community to handle those who are on the streets and doing

02:29:34 effective outreach to get them engaged in the services.

02:29:37 And so those are kind of the specific issues that I know

02:29:43 coalition members shall concerned with, and I know you have

02:29:47 a difficult decision, and you have heard me say this a

02:29:51 number of times.

02:29:52 And I appreciate you taking on this responsibility and




02:29:56 trying to help us as a community.

02:29:59 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:30:01 Next.

02:30:02 >> Good afternoon.

02:30:12 I'm Wayne McCraney, 3713 west Del Prado in South Tampa.

02:30:17 And as I was mentioning earlier, I have been a resident of

02:30:20 Tampa since 1953, 58 years now, and I have never seen

02:30:26 anything like this before, and I have lived through

02:30:28 hurricanes and a tornado up in north Tampa back in the

02:30:33 60s.

02:30:33 If everybody remembers the tornado that came down there.

02:30:36 But I want to echo the sentiments of the lady that was

02:30:42 talking about being intimidated and scared when she

02:30:44 approaches an intersection.

02:30:47 I feel the same way.

02:30:48 I'm a grown man.

02:30:49 And I happen to agree with others when they talk about the

02:30:53 safety issue.

02:30:57 I have seen almost accidents happen because an individual

02:30:59 will step off the median, and a driver has to swerve to

02:31:05 prevent from hitting him or striking him, causing him to

02:31:08 almost drive into another vehicle in the other lane.

02:31:15 I have lived in other major cities.

02:31:16 I can mention Atlanta, Chicago, New York City.

02:31:20 I have been to these places.




02:31:22 Miami.

02:31:23 And I have never seen anything like it, like I was saying

02:31:29 earlier.

02:31:29 I think the best thing to do would be to come to some type

02:31:32 of a compromise.

02:31:33 I mean, whether or not it's the six day ban, allowing only

02:31:40 Sunday, or maybe a combination of the three options that

02:31:43 were mentioned earlier.

02:31:48 It's embarrassing to me as a citizen.

02:31:51 And I love my city.

02:31:53 I love Tampa more than anything.

02:31:55 And it's embarrassing for me to have family members visit me

02:31:58 from Chicago or the upper east coast and have been to drive

02:32:02 up to these intersections and have these people stand there

02:32:07 with these pieces of cardboard with letters written with a

02:32:12 marker basically saying, I'm having a bad day, please help

02:32:15 me.

02:32:16 I mean, I'm disabled.

02:32:19 I have been working since I was 14 years old and I'm still

02:32:25 working and I'm disabled.

02:32:30 Let's not confuse homelessness with professional panhandling

02:32:33 or professional begging.

02:32:35 A neighbor of mine told me the other day these guys bring in

02:32:38 an average of $50 up to $100 daily.

02:32:42 $100 a day, that's $36,000 a year.




02:32:45 That's more than what I make.

02:32:47 But I would like to be take everything that's been said by

02:32:52 me and the others that were up here before me into

02:32:55 consideration, and I'm sure you will come to the right

02:32:59 conclusion.

02:32:59 And I appreciate you allowing me to speak.

02:33:02 Thank you.

02:33:02 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:33:06 Is there anyone else who wishes Tosh speak?

02:33:14 Councilman Cohen?

02:33:15 >>FRANK REDDICK: Can I have a point of order?

02:33:17 I have a procedure question I want to raise.

02:33:19 >>MARY MULHERN: You have a procedural question to ask our

02:33:28 attorney?

02:33:29 >>FRANK REDDICK: The procedure question is, what is the

02:33:32 preference with council on major policy issues?

02:33:37 What has been the precedent of having a full council on

02:33:44 major issues?

02:33:46 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I can't speak to if there's a policy.

02:33:48 There's nothing in your rules of procedure.

02:33:50 I will state that your charter requires for action to be

02:33:55 taken requires a vote of four.

02:33:58 That is the legal requirement.

02:34:00 What you are asking really is a policy question.

02:34:04 And I really can't, as a point of order, I can't say that




02:34:11 that has ever been, A, tallied or, B, be printed anywhere.

02:34:23 >>MARY MULHERN: This is a workshop so we don't normally

02:34:27 take action, but we did schedule this as an option.

02:34:31 >> Madam Chair.

02:34:37 >>MARY MULHERN: Are you speaking on this?

02:34:38 >> Yes, I am.

02:34:39 Something that you just said.

02:34:40 I believe our rules say that if it is a workshop we can take

02:34:44 action.

02:34:45 Is that correct, Mr. Shelby?

02:34:48 You say we normally don't.

02:34:49 But in the rules, it is that we do.

02:34:51 >>MARY MULHERN: That's what I just said.

02:34:53 And plus when we scheduled this, we did include in the

02:34:58 motion for this workshop that we would have the option to be

02:35:04 take action at the workshop.

02:35:05 What I was trying to say, we can take action, and we

02:35:12 actually scheduled this item with that possibility in there

02:35:17 and with direction to have the ordinances ready if we should

02:35:19 decide to take action.

02:35:20 >>MIKE SUAREZ: My question then is, a motion as -- I

02:35:29 haven't gone back to look at the motion -- if it is a

02:35:32 workshop, by its very nature we can take action, not an

02:35:36 option, but we do take action, correct?

02:35:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council's rules do state that no official




02:35:45 action on the matter which is the subject of the workshop

02:35:46 shall be taken during or after a workshop unless the public

02:35:50 is afforded the opportunity to comment prior to action.

02:35:54 That condition in this circumstance has been met.

02:35:57 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

02:35:59 Councilman Cohen.

02:36:00 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

02:36:07 We heard from a lot of speakers this afternoon, and they

02:36:14 were a terrific representation of all the different views

02:36:17 that exist in the community.

02:36:18 There are reasonable, well-meaning people who disagree about

02:36:24 what the proper way to handle this issue is.

02:36:28 And in listening to my fellow council members over the past

02:36:34 few months, it's been clear that all of us have different

02:36:38 views on what the most appropriate way to deal with this

02:36:43 issue is.

02:36:44 I wanted to just make a couple of brief comments prior to

02:36:47 the debate getting started.

02:36:50 Hopefully to try to frame the issue after having done some

02:36:53 pretty exhaustive research and study of the topic over the

02:36:57 past couple of months.

02:36:58 To begin with, I would say that, in my opinion, the

02:37:02 situation on our streets is getting out of control.

02:37:06 It's getting worse.

02:37:08 And it's getting worse, I think, for three primary reasons.




02:37:13 One is that the economic situation is continuing to

02:37:16 deteriorate.

02:37:17 The unemployment rate is continuing to go up.

02:37:20 There are not opportunities for people who are being

02:37:24 foreclosed on and being evicted from their home, and this

02:37:29 has created a great strain throughout the community.

02:37:33 Second, this practice of asking for money in the streets has

02:37:38 been banned in virtually every jurisdiction that surrounds

02:37:42 the City of Tampa, and, as a result, there's no question

02:37:47 that people are coming in from those jurisdictions and

02:37:50 availing themselves of our admittedly more compassionate

02:37:55 laws.

02:37:56 Third, I think that we can expect that this problem is going

02:38:00 to get worse through the winter as people who are up north

02:38:04 right now and are facing inclimate weather and may make

02:38:10 their way to the Tampa area where they heard that we are one

02:38:13 of the few jurisdictions in Florida that is still allowing

02:38:16 people to solicit for money in the streets.

02:38:20 There are good and reasonable people that can disagree on

02:38:23 what the best solution to this problem is.

02:38:25 We heard it this afternoon from the many people that spoke,

02:38:28 and they offered a lot of different options.

02:38:31 Some on this council -- and I have been listening very

02:38:33 closely to what my fellow council members have said over the

02:38:36 past few months, and I would like to just let the public




02:38:39 know, we are not allowed to talk about this among ourselves.

02:38:42 I'm not allowed to wonder into my colleagues' offices and

02:38:47 talk about.

02:38:48 This so this is our only opportunity to actually talk among

02:38:52 ourselves to try to come to some consensus about what to do.

02:38:56 Now, that said, I have been listening to what everyone up

02:38:59 here has said publicly over this span of the last few

02:39:04 months.

02:39:05 Some would be like a full seven-day ban with no exceptions.

02:39:09 Others want exceptions because they are very concerned about

02:39:13 the effects on newspapers, and the people that sell

02:39:16 newspapers.

02:39:17 Councilman Reddick made, I thought, an extraordinary

02:39:20 statement the last time that we touched on this issue, which

02:39:23 went to the viability of what is the oldest continuously

02:39:28 published African-American newspaper in the State of

02:39:30 Florida.

02:39:31 We have a newspaper in Tampa that is the only

02:39:36 Italian-Spanish and English-speaking newspaper that I know

02:39:39 of that's printed anywhere in the country.

02:39:42 So we have a lot of competing interests that we are trying

02:39:47 to accommodate as we move through this topic.

02:39:53 Option 3, which involved a three-step vote, which is a

02:39:57 repeal of our existing ordinance, a ban on street

02:40:01 solicitation, and then an exception for newspaper sales, and




02:40:05 political speech.

02:40:08 It's a compromise.

02:40:09 It is not, I believe, the ordinance that any one of us who

02:40:13 are up here would have written had we been in control of

02:40:16 what to do about this problem.

02:40:20 But it's probably the closest thing that I know of that

02:40:26 gives everybody here some accommodation on the concerns they

02:40:30 have raised, but yet at the same time protecting the

02:40:36 integrity of the idea of cleaning up our streets, which,

02:40:42 from my viewpoint, really are out of control.

02:40:45 I have to tell you, I've seen fights break out on corners.

02:40:49 I have seen people very aggressively panhandling, and I have

02:40:55 seen way, way more activity on street corners than can

02:41:00 possibly be accommodated for people to safely move

02:41:03 throughout the intersection.

02:41:04 I know there are some up here that want more.

02:41:06 I know there are some that want less.

02:41:09 I only want to tell everyone, as we move through this

02:41:12 discussion, that I don't think we are going to get anywhere

02:41:15 unless everybody is willing to just give and take a little

02:41:19 bit as we discuss the different options that are in front of

02:41:23 us.

02:41:24 Option 3, while not perfect, accommodates newspaper sales,

02:41:31 and it also accommodates political expression, expression by

02:41:35 people that want to simply express a viewpoint, leafletting,




02:41:40 the kind of expression that is at the very heart of first

02:41:44 amendment communication.

02:41:45 So that's just my opening take on this discussion.

02:41:48 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilwoman Montelione.

02:41:55 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I am going to be go through very rapidly

02:41:58 a lot of the comments that I have been writing down as

02:42:00 people have been speaking.

02:42:02 I have spoken with pastors, and what I have heard from

02:42:06 pastors is they have encouraged me to pass an all-out ban

02:42:11 because the way they feel is that we are rewarding by

02:42:15 allowing street solicitation, we are rewarding people and

02:42:19 letting them collect a wage, and the wage is for begging.

02:42:23 Now, what they propose is that if we have the ban in place,

02:42:28 then the individuals will be driven to seek the services,

02:42:32 because they would no longer be paid this wage.

02:42:35 And I have heard that from several pastors.

02:42:38 So I want to ask how they can help.

02:42:41 How they can help is we heard a wonderful proposal earlier

02:42:45 in the first item of this agenda, and how you can help, make

02:42:49 a donation to the homeless coalition or the organization

02:42:53 Metropolitan Ministries, the organization of your choice,

02:42:55 but we need to raise money.

02:42:56 I have been asking to look at CDBG funds.

02:42:59 I have been asking to look at the budget.

02:43:00 I have been asking to find ways to fund services and




02:43:04 programs, and asking that even before I was on council.

02:43:08 We need to raise money.

02:43:09 And if you want to help, you know put your money where your

02:43:13 mouth is.

02:43:14 You don't want to give to the somebody standing on the

02:43:16 street, give it to a charity.

02:43:17 I want to be see those numbers come up the next time I see

02:43:20 Metropolitan Ministries and everybody published their annual

02:43:22 reports, numbers should be up.

02:43:24 Freedom of speech.

02:43:25 I couldn't put it more eloquently than Councilman Cohen put

02:43:29 it.

02:43:30 This is something as one of our union members has mentioned,

02:43:33 this is freedom of speech.

02:43:34 This is something that has been going on since Paul revere

02:43:38 rode through the streets -- I hope I got that right -- of

02:43:43 Boston, and we need to allow that to continue.

02:43:51 In commenting, I talked about permitting before on the

02:43:54 campaign trail.

02:43:56 Senator Latvala talked about that.

02:43:59 Unfortunately our state legislature has not taken the time

02:44:01 to address this issue and it fell wayside before they

02:44:05 concluded the session.

02:44:06 I am hoping they bring that up again and whatever they pass

02:44:09 today will be tweaked or we can come back and revisit it at




02:44:12 a later time when our state legislature decides that they

02:44:14 are really going to take a step that benefits all the

02:44:17 citizens of Florida.

02:44:20 The rate of traffic brought up from Westshore Alliance is

02:44:27 understandable.

02:44:27 And I have this cute little drawing, if I can get somebody

02:44:30 to put this on the Elmo.

02:44:31 The last time I did that I almost broke my ankle coming down

02:44:35 the stairs.

02:44:36 Thank you, Mr. Shimberg.

02:44:37 If you can put that up there.

02:44:39 And while he's doing that, I can continue on.

02:44:42 The solution is not for allowing solicitation of money from

02:44:47 vehicles, but improving the economy and looking for jobs and

02:44:50 looking for ways to be train individuals to seek jobs and to

02:44:54 find help.

02:44:55 And that's how we are going to address the issue of people

02:44:58 trying to be sustain themselves by asking for money on the

02:45:03 street.

02:45:09 I am going to propose we take this first step and repeal the

02:45:13 ordinance that is currently on the books.

02:45:15 That would allow for Hillsborough County's ordinance to take

02:45:18 effect.

02:45:19 And I

02:45:20 Want to add one more thing.




02:45:21 I was

02:45:22 Riding with code enforcement last Friday.

02:45:24 And while I was ride with code enforcement we were on the

02:45:27 corner of Fowler and Nebraska stopped at a streetlight.

02:45:31 There was a gentleman on the sidewalk who was holding a sign

02:45:33 that said, I need work, I have a resume, please ask me for

02:45:38 one.

02:45:38 So roll down the window.

02:45:39 We pulled over to the side.

02:45:40 I asked him for his resumé.

02:45:42 I have his resumé right here.

02:45:46 Tampa Police Department graciously did a check on his

02:45:49 background.

02:45:49 He has never been arrested.

02:45:52 In the State of Florida.

02:45:52 He has been here since 2004.

02:45:56 So he's been in the State of Florida quite some time and has

02:45:58 not run afoul of the law.

02:46:00 He's got some excellent references here and some talent.

02:46:04 This is a fellow who needs some work.

02:46:06 So if anybody is out there who can provide some work, I

02:46:10 would like to hear from you because he's already -- I gave

02:46:13 him one of my business cards from the city.

02:46:15 He has already called my office asking if I found him a job

02:46:17 yet.




02:46:19 So be we have people out here who are not disabled and not

02:46:25 mentally handicapped.

02:46:27 They are able-bodied.

02:46:28 They are willing to work.

02:46:29 They are looking for work.

02:46:30 They have very good resumés.

02:46:33 And they need economic opportunity.

02:46:36 So back to the Elmo.

02:46:39 What I have got on the drawing there is, from what I

02:46:43 understand from Rebecca Kert -- you might want to come up,

02:46:47 Rebecca, to address this -- is the ordinance in Hillsborough

02:46:50 County prohibits solicitation from vehicles in the lane of

02:46:58 traffic.

02:47:01 So if someone is on the sidewalk, and they are interacting

02:47:04 with a motor vehicle that is either on private property or

02:47:08 in the apron of the driveway, they are not in a lane of

02:47:12 traffic, and someone could leaflet, express their views,

02:47:17 politically, socially, whatever, to that vehicle, because it

02:47:22 is not yet in the lane of traffic.

02:47:24 So if you are on the sidewalk, and you are outside a

02:47:28 building or parking lot, you can still interacted with that

02:47:31 vehicle.

02:47:32 Is that correct?

02:47:32 >>REBECCA KERT: Yes.

02:47:36 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.




02:47:37 The ordinance that we was talked about by several, you know,

02:47:40 as option number 3, if we are going to open ourselves up for

02:47:47 legal challenges in the State of Florida, because it might

02:47:49 happen if we pass any of the options put before us, except

02:47:56 possibly repealing the ordinance we have now and allowing

02:48:00 Hillsborough County's ordinance to take effect. If we do

02:48:04 either of one, two or three, we are opening ourselves up to

02:48:09 court, and if we are going to go with Hillsborough County, I

02:48:16 hope that as Spencer Kass pointed out we have someone who is

02:48:21 going to step up and pay our legal fees, because we have a

02:48:25 really tight budget and I really don't want us to spend any

02:48:29 more money on legal fees.

02:48:30 That's my piece.

02:48:31 Thank you very much.

02:48:31 >>MARY MULHERN: Can did you want to hear from legal?

02:48:38 >>LISA MONTELIONE: She answered the question.

02:48:39 >>MARY MULHERN: Can I ask you one question before we go to

02:48:41 the next person?

02:48:43 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I believe I made a motion to repeal the

02:48:45 ordinance.

02:48:45 >> She, did but Madam Chair, if you could hold off on that.

02:48:52 >>MARY MULHERN: We have not heard from all of council yet

02:48:57 on the workshop discussion.

02:48:58 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Okay.

02:48:59 I'll hold it.




02:49:00 >>MARY MULHERN: Would you hold that till after we have

02:49:02 heard from everyone?

02:49:04 But I do have a question for you about what you just said.

02:49:07 Because the man that gave you his resumé, he was on the

02:49:10 sidewalk?

02:49:12 >>LISA MONTELIONE: He was on the sidewalk, yes, ma'am.

02:49:14 >>MARY MULHERN: So you would still be able to have received

02:49:16 that resumé from him?

02:49:21 >>LISA MONTELIONE: We pulled over.

02:49:23 We weren't in the lane of traffic.

02:49:24 We were in the right lane, stopped at the Reid red light.

02:49:27 I saw him on the sidewalk.

02:49:28 We pulled over so that far we were not in the lane of

02:49:31 traffic.

02:49:31 If you are a parked vehicle you are not in the lane of

02:49:33 traffic.

02:49:33 >>MARY MULHERN: You talked fast, and I --

02:49:37 >> I was trying to get it all in.

02:49:39 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. Suarez?

02:49:43 Councilman Reddick and Councilman -- Councilman Reddick.

02:49:51 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.

02:49:53 I would like to call Chief Bennett to the mike.

02:50:00 >> John been wet, assistant chief.

02:50:06 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, chief, for coming.

02:50:10 Let me just ask you a few questions, and that is, I support




02:50:16 what Councilman Cohen stated earlier, and that we are not

02:50:23 all going to be happy with getting everything we would like

02:50:26 to have.

02:50:29 But looking at this -- and I had opportunity to talk with

02:50:32 just about everybody who have will be effected by this ban,

02:50:37 if whatever action we take.

02:50:39 Number one, I will not support a motion to support the

02:50:44 Hillsborough County ordinance at all.

02:50:46 And, two, if we were to limit the number of days that a

02:50:58 person can be out on an intersection, as well as those who

02:51:03 are selling newspapers, how will that impact your

02:51:05 department?

02:51:08 >> Strictly from a public safety point of view, anytime

02:51:11 there's what I would call risk reduction, by time, place and

02:51:15 manner -- that's not to talk in the legal realm of time,

02:51:19 place and manner but the risk probably.

02:51:21 And anytime, we believe it's a public safety issue.

02:51:25 If you are in the road interacting with the motoring public,

02:51:28 we think that's risk.

02:51:30 Anytime you reduce that risk, if you are shaving it down,

02:51:34 obviously you are changing -- exchanging risk in be that

02:51:40 scale, and we believe anything will make anything better, of

02:51:43 course, all relate to the point that it didn't happen.

02:51:46 >> If we put a restriction on the hours that people can

02:51:53 solicit at an intersection or sale of newspaper, how would




02:51:58 that impact the department?

02:52:00 >> Again, it's a risk reduction formula, again to be vetted

02:52:05 against the legal structure.

02:52:07 For example, right now, there's nothing passed the daylight

02:52:13 hours.

02:52:13 That's a risk calculation.

02:52:14 We think it's higher risk, obviously, as a city to allow

02:52:18 solicitation in the right-of-way at night.

02:52:21 So that's not allowable.

02:52:24 So if you reduce time, you are reducing the risk.

02:52:28 And that's probably the simplest way I can put it.

02:52:30 >>FRANK REDDICK: Okay.

02:52:32 And the following question to you is, on Sundays, the only

02:52:42 two organizations that I see, the newspapers, the "St. Pete

02:52:46 Times" and "The Tampa Tribune," on the street corners.

02:52:53 If they are limited to half a day, from sunrise to noon or

02:53:03 1:00 in the afternoon, woven that have an impact on your

02:53:07 department?

02:53:11 >> Be it's still showing the same public safety response as

02:53:16 previous statistics, close to three calls for service per

02:53:20 day.

02:53:21 Probably a-a third end up in arrest or some situation beyond

02:53:26 just responding to the call.

02:53:28 If that was reduced to six and a half days of not responding

02:53:31 to those types of calls because there wasn't something going




02:53:34 on in the right-of-way that necessitated a call for service,

02:53:38 of course it would reduce the risk.

02:53:40 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.

02:53:53 Yes, we have a major issue and it's a difficult one.

02:53:56 But what is amazing to me that I see all these businesses

02:53:59 that come before us, and talk about the individual who

02:54:04 represent businesses, and saying they want a ban.

02:54:11 But I haven't seen none of those businesses say, let me go

02:54:19 take some of the people off the street corner, let me put

02:54:23 them in a training program, and let me hire them.

02:54:26 None of them have stated this.

02:54:32 They represent all the chambers, but no one has offered to

02:54:36 take none of those people off the street corners and put

02:54:40 them of in a training program and say, let me put you to

02:54:43 work.

02:54:47 That concerns me.

02:54:50 But they want us to sit here and say get rid of them.

02:54:57 And the program that we had this morning, 300 some beds, and

02:55:03 we are looking for a facility -- beds, and we are looking

02:55:07 for something here in Tampa, this great city, we have got a

02:55:10 problem.

02:55:13 So I have been passionate about this, and still passionate

02:55:16 about it, and I thank the council colleagues for thinking of

02:55:25 the historic newspaper.

02:55:28 They only got two days a week.




02:55:34 The other newspapers, seven days.

02:55:38 And when you speak of banning six days, within exception on

02:55:45 Sunday, you are putting people out of work and business.

02:55:52 And we talked about this morning, City of Tampa got 11.2%

02:55:56 unemployment rate.

02:55:58 Where are these people going?

02:56:02 I don't know about you.

02:56:03 And most of them probably don't in my district, don't live

02:56:12 in my neighborhood, you don't have the same problem in my

02:56:16 neighborhood that you might have in yours, but I want to see

02:56:22 those people out there trying to be earn some dollars, earn

02:56:26 a living, and still trying to rob my house of breaking my

02:56:32 car.

02:56:35 So, yes, it could be a public safety issue.

02:56:39 But it's also an economical issue.

02:56:42 And I just think that if I can support the three options

02:56:49 that we have, I can support number 3.

02:56:56 Because it could exempt the newspapers, and give those

02:57:01 people an opportunity to do what they need to do.

02:57:06 Secondly, I would be inclined to support restrictions,

02:57:14 operations at the time they are out there.

02:57:19 We just cannot say we are going to take these people, put

02:57:25 them in a sack and go drop them out in the field somewhere.

02:57:32 We can't do that.

02:57:35 And if you are talking about compassionate, and you want to




02:57:38 have heart, I don't see how some of you can come up here and

02:57:44 be compassionate and kind and loving people, and all you are

02:57:48 thinking about is the nuisance, is the image, or as the

02:58:03 chairman said at the end of this discussion, if you don't

02:58:06 give them a dollar they won't be out there long.

02:58:07 >>MARY MULHERN: That was the other chairman.

02:58:09 >>FRANK REDDICK: Chairman Miranda.

02:58:15 He always says if you don't give a dollar, they won't be out

02:58:18 there long.

02:58:19 Somebody out there giving them money.

02:58:22 Because they are still out there.

02:58:23 So I can support 3.

02:58:30 But I also think legal, the problem has to be that we can

02:58:40 include where the firefighters can be out there with MDA,

02:58:44 and that this organization receiving $50,000 in 2011, and

02:58:52 give back to this community, they will have an opportunity

02:58:54 to get out there and also continue to receive those type of

02:59:00 dollars through their efforts for the firefighters, and

02:59:03 there's got to be a way, I think legal, they have brilliant,

02:59:08 bright mind in the legal department for the City of Tampa,

02:59:10 and I'm sure they can find a way -- and Mr. Shimberg, you

02:59:15 can smile on that one -- to be include MDA, with the

02:59:21 firefighters to be included, and we can get this resolved,

02:59:25 even if it's on a trial basis and see if it will work.

02:59:32 But my focus would be we cannot just take some people and




02:59:37 just take these people and put them in a bag and go dump

02:59:42 them out there in the ocean somewhere and say let them

02:59:45 survive on their own.

02:59:46 It's too important.

02:59:48 And when we have 11.2% unemployment rate, we can do better

02:59:53 than that.

02:59:54 And as a member of this council, my conscience, I want my

02:59:58 conscience to be good.

03:00:00 And, therefore, Madam Chair, not going as long as last time,

03:00:08 but I think I can go along with option 3 if legal can also

03:00:17 find a way for the firefighters so MDA can benefit, receive

03:00:23 benefit from them.

03:00:24 Thank you, chief.

03:00:25 >>MARY MULHERN: Who is next?

03:00:30 Councilman Suarez?

03:00:31 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.

03:00:33 Today's meeting, and I said for every meeting that we had

03:00:36 about this issue, is both informative and very passionate.

03:00:42 I want to thank Councilman Cohen, who really did the heavy

03:00:46 lifting on the legal side to try to find a good compromise

03:00:50 for us to move forward.

03:00:52 I truly believe that we need to find a way to solve this

03:00:59 public safety issue.

03:01:01 I'm a product of the working poor.

03:01:05 My grandmother had nine children.




03:01:09 And at one point had one leg and still worked more than one

03:01:12 job.

03:01:13 That's not to say those people that are out on the street

03:01:15 aren't trying to find jobs, aren't hard working and aren't

03:01:18 looking.

03:01:19 But there have been people up here that have impugned us by

03:01:24 saying that we are not compassionate.

03:01:27 We are constrained by who we are as a City Council.

03:01:30 We are constrained by what we have as a budget.

03:01:34 We are constrained based on the law of what we can and

03:01:38 cannot do.

03:01:40 And people that want to put a layer of compassion or a layer

03:01:46 of religion or layer of anything else that deals with this

03:01:49 issue without thinking of all the other things that we have

03:01:53 to deal with is sadly mistaken.

03:01:55 We did not -- neither Mace or my colleagues ran for public

03:02:00 office to not be compassionate for people.

03:02:04 Our whole reason for running was to try to make this city

03:02:08 better.

03:02:09 So when we have people on both sides of this issue that are

03:02:12 very passionate about it, I want them to understand that

03:02:16 this is not a pat answer.

03:02:19 We do not come to these decisions easily.

03:02:22 We do not come to these decisions based on some kind of

03:02:25 prejudice or some kind of reasoning that we don't like




03:02:29 people, we don't want to see people survive and we don't

03:02:32 want to have people have jobs.

03:02:34 But we are constrained.

03:02:37 I have always been in support from the very beginning that I

03:02:41 began this campaign -- and Mr. Lake, who is an attorney with

03:02:44 the Tribune will know this because one of the first places

03:02:46 that I walked was his neighborhood, and I knocked on his

03:02:49 door and he asked me what I thought about panhandling.

03:02:52 And I told him then, and I'll tell you all now, that I

03:02:57 believe that a ban is appropriate, a complete ban.

03:03:01 I think that the legal department has looked at lots of

03:03:06 different ways that we can try and make this thing work.

03:03:11 I think we are going to be sued no matter what we do.

03:03:14 The main issues that I have go back to what Councilman Cohen

03:03:18 had mentioned from the very first time, which is the first

03:03:21 amendment rights that people have do not interfere with what

03:03:25 we are going to do.

03:03:27 And I know that my friends in the union honor talked about

03:03:30 this -- and I think that we probably are at a point where we

03:03:33 may be able to do something, that isn't going to cause a

03:03:36 problem for first amendment rights, including their own.

03:03:40 But at the same time, I think that people have to

03:03:42 understand.

03:03:45 The federal government is very constrained right now in

03:03:48 terms of what they can do with their budget.




03:03:49 State government is.

03:03:50 As we are.

03:03:52 So we cannot come up with a vote and make it a panacea for

03:03:56 what has happened to this economy.

03:03:59 There are people that have survived the great depression,

03:04:03 were able to not only survive but thrive and become small

03:04:06 business owners, corporate executives, been able to be an

03:04:10 important part of society.

03:04:13 So again, this is not an issue of what we believe people are

03:04:16 capable of doing.

03:04:17 It's not an issue about wash we think we should do as a

03:04:20 community to help folks.

03:04:23 It is just where we are at in terms of our ability to solve

03:04:28 this particular problem.

03:04:31 Having said that, I believe that I could probably support

03:04:37 issue number 3, even though I am going to bring a motion

03:04:41 forward, before the end of this meeting, to adopt a ban that

03:04:46 was similar to St. Petersburg's ban.

03:04:49 And I would like to ask Mrs. Kert a question concerning that

03:04:52 in relation to the Hillsborough County solicitation ban.

03:04:59 There is language within the St. Petersburg ban that does

03:05:02 specifically point out that folks on the sidewalk are

03:05:06 allowed to continue first amendment activities, or even to

03:05:11 give leaflets out for their businesses, for any other

03:05:14 activity.




03:05:16 Is the county ban similar to what St. Petersburg has?

03:05:20 And, if not, what are those restrictions?

03:05:23 >>REBECCA KERT: The Hillsborough County ordinance is in

03:05:27 fact similar to St. Petersburg.

03:05:29 The major difference between the Hillsborough County and

03:05:32 St. Petersburg is St. Petersburg only limits the prohibited

03:05:34 conduct on their major roadways.

03:05:38 And their arterial road.

03:05:40 The other major difference is Hillsborough County's

03:05:42 ordinance does prohibit holding a sign, which I believe

03:05:48 St. Pete does not.

03:05:50 But Hillsborough County, when they recently amended their

03:05:53 ordinance, did clarify that their regulations also do not

03:05:57 apply to people on sidewalks, leafletting, other people on

03:06:02 the sidewalks, so they have that same language that St. Pete

03:06:04 has.

03:06:05 >> So the language was changed from what it was originally,

03:06:08 with Hillsborough County?

03:06:09 >>REBECCA KERT: It was originally 1991 and recently within

03:06:13 the last six months, I believe, they amended it and they did

03:06:18 clarify that the public safety issue that they have is that

03:06:23 pedestrians interacting with motor vehicles when those motor

03:06:26 vehicles are in a traffic lane, not lawfully parked and not

03:06:29 pedestrian to pedestrian on the sidewalk.

03:06:31 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you.




03:06:37 My final board is I want to thank this council.

03:06:39 I know that Councilwoman Mulhern, Councilwoman Capin,

03:06:42 Councilman Reddick, have had to deal with this in the past.

03:06:46 My other colleagues, Mrs. Montelione and Mr. Cohen, who

03:06:50 haven't had to deal with the number of meetings, thank you

03:06:53 for the patience that you have shown in letting us try and

03:06:56 discover where we were going to be on this particular issue.

03:06:59 So we do appreciate that.

03:07:00 >>MARY MULHERN: And you have our sympathy.

03:07:04 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, Madam Chair.

03:07:07 I appreciate it and I'm done.

03:07:08 Thank you very much.

03:07:08 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilwoman Capin.

03:07:12 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.

03:07:13 First, I want to start out, my grandfather, one of my

03:07:20 grandfathers sold fruit and vegetables in the street during

03:07:25 the depression.

03:07:26 So I understand it very well.

03:07:29 Hearing the stories, growing up.

03:07:31 But I also understand, we cannot act for fear that we may be

03:07:37 sued.

03:07:39 That would be shirking our responsibilities.

03:07:41 We may as well go home.

03:07:44 That cannot hold.

03:07:47 The other thing is, I think this calls for compromise, to




03:07:54 try to accommodate as many as possible, and at the same time

03:08:01 keeping our streets safe.

03:08:05 The other thing I want to say is, I have lived in this city

03:08:08 my entire life, 60 years.

03:08:13 I cannot tell you how long ago therein was street

03:08:18 solicitation.

03:08:20 That's one.

03:08:22 Newspapers have been sold in the streets as far as I can

03:08:28 remember.

03:08:32 Now we are looking at safety issues.

03:08:40 I feel that maybe option 3 and option 2, a combination.

03:08:49 What you have there is you have newspaper and leaflets.

03:08:56 Newspapers by and large are sold on Sunday which is the one

03:08:59 thing, which would allow charity.

03:09:03 The other thing would be, I would support that combination.

03:09:18 Also, but what I would like to amend on any of these, 3 or 2

03:09:23 or 1, is section 2, and I am going to read it.

03:09:32 But if any part of this ordinance shall be declared

03:09:34 unconstitutional or invalid by a court of competent

03:09:41 jurisdiction, the remaining provisions of this ordinance

03:09:42 shall maintain the full effect.

03:09:45 That, in effect, is a total ban.

03:09:59 And the reason I would amend this, striking this, is because

03:10:02 wharf we are doing here is there is no, as Rebecca Kert

03:10:09 said, there is no precedence on this rule of the newspapers




03:10:13 selling.

03:10:14 It has not been brought to court, and we are in unchartered

03:10:20 water.

03:10:23 If we feel so confident that option 3 and the newspapers

03:10:32 will hold, then what I am offering is, we are looking at a

03:10:39 safety belt, is what this amendment is, the safety belt that

03:10:44 you use in your car.

03:10:45 You don't wear it because you are going to have an accident.

03:10:51 You wear it just in case.

03:10:54 That's why I believe we should strike this, "just in case."

03:11:00 If we strike this, then if this comes to court, it will take

03:11:08 awhile, and we will have at least a year of an ordinance to

03:11:13 actually look and come back and know, did it work or did it

03:11:18 not work, or do we need more?

03:11:21 But a total ban is what this section is going to -- is

03:11:27 providing.

03:11:30 And I don't believe -- and I know that I have heard from

03:11:33 several council members here, over the past few months, and

03:11:38 I don't believe that's what they want.

03:11:41 What I want to do is protect the newspapers.

03:11:45 They are a contribution to our community, and I want to

03:11:48 protect jobs.

03:11:48 As you heard earlier today, I adamantly want to protect two

03:11:54 and a half jobs.

03:11:55 So you can imagine hundreds of jobs.




03:12:00 I also want to protect the sentinel, which is a cultural and

03:12:03 economic asset to this community.

03:12:08 It is legal and Constitutional to add this amendment to the

03:12:15 option 3, striking section 2, until it is challenged lake

03:12:21 all the others, and declared unconstitutional in a court of

03:12:26 law.

03:12:27 Therefore, what I am proposing, the amendment is legal and

03:12:32 Constitutional until it is declared unconstitutional by a

03:12:35 court of law.

03:12:38 That is what I would like to or will propose when we are

03:12:44 done, so that you are aware of -- again, since we cannot

03:12:51 speak outside of this dais, I have to explain to be my

03:12:56 council members what I was trying to accomplish here.

03:13:06 I'm done.

03:13:07 Thank you.

03:13:07 >>MARY MULHERN: It has been a long time.

03:13:14 I can't remember -- and I really mean that, Councilman

03:13:19 Suarez, that you and the newer council members, so I do have

03:13:26 sympathy for you having to weigh all of this, and feeling

03:13:32 the pressure, and I know that we all were elected in March,

03:13:39 and this was the favorite topic and an important topic to

03:13:43 the voters, and especially to the media, the voters and the

03:13:52 media. We spent a lot of time on it.

03:13:54 I'm going to have to go back to quite awhile ago when this

03:14:00 was first came back to us, after we -- it was recommended to




03:14:10 us by our legal, the last downfall council, legal department

03:14:14 and probably based on some compromises and ideas between the

03:14:20 newspapers and the charities and the Tampa Police

03:14:23 Department, and we voted to have the vest, and than was

03:14:32 supposed to help with the safety problem.

03:14:34 Then it came back to us that we should have a complete ban,

03:14:40 and then we got into all the other discussions.

03:14:42 And where we are today.

03:14:47 Through all of that, there was a county task force formed.

03:14:52 It wasn't just the county task force.

03:14:54 Ed included our police department, our legal department, and

03:14:59 the county, the sheriff, county administrator, county

03:15:03 commission, they were meeting for months.

03:15:07 The homeless coalition.

03:15:10 And the city last year, City Council never had the benefit

03:15:14 of what their recommendations were until they were done, and

03:15:17 then they President Obama wrote a long report which you all

03:15:22 may or may not have read, and probably have.

03:15:28 After all of this, and all of the research I've done, and

03:15:34 all of the people I've listened to, and all of the reading

03:15:37 I've done, and especially after what has been going on in

03:15:42 world and in this country as far as the gap between the rich

03:15:47 and poor, the lack of jobs, the lack of services, a really

03:15:52 good indication of where funding is for all of the needs for

03:15:56 people who may be homeless, may have mental health issues,




03:16:04 Sal Territo, our assistant city attorney, when we were

03:16:07 passing the CDBG recommendation, said, I think it was 30

03:16:13 years ago when they first came up with these federal grants,

03:16:17 the amount that we are getting now, 20 or 30 years later, I

03:16:22 don't remember how long it's been, is less than was

03:16:25 allocated back then.

03:16:27 So when people come up and say they have never seen anything

03:16:31 like this as far as how many people are panhandling, and how

03:16:34 many homeless people there are, it's true, because not only

03:16:43 is there a bigger population, and are there less services,

03:16:46 but, you know, there is no funding.

03:16:48 And so this is what I have to say about this decision.

03:16:59 For me, it was always about -- I don't feel threatened.

03:17:05 I've never felt scared.

03:17:06 I'm not saying that other people shouldn't or don't.

03:17:11 My own family feels lake it's threatening when someone is

03:17:17 asking for money when you're driving, you know, stopped at a

03:17:20 stoplight.

03:17:21 I don't feel that way.

03:17:24 But what I feel like I have to make a decision on is whether

03:17:29 there's any evidence that this is a safety risk.

03:17:35 Okay.

03:17:35 So what have we heard?

03:17:41 There is one statistic of a death.

03:17:44 I think it was a panhandler, and I think it was in the




03:17:47 county, and it was also documented that this person was way

03:17:52 over the legal alcohol limit.

03:17:54 So whatever he was doing, wherever he was in the street, he

03:17:58 was also very inebriated.

03:18:03 Okay.

03:18:03 That's the one statistic that we have had from law

03:18:08 enforcement about the danger to those individuals.

03:18:13 The danger to the drivers.

03:18:17 We have anecdotal evidence.

03:18:18 And I don't doubt that some people feel afraid.

03:18:22 But I'm like the woman whose car door locks automatically,

03:18:28 and I have lived in really bad neighborhood.

03:18:31 I always feel safe in Tampa, and I lock my doors.

03:18:34 But I just have never felt threatened there.

03:18:36 So now I am going to say the really bad thing that I know no

03:18:40 one wants me to say, but if there are people who are in the

03:18:47 street and who are acting threateningly a, aggressively,

03:18:53 everybody has a cell phone, and you should call the police

03:18:57 department.

03:18:58 And the kind of activity that you find threatening is

03:19:03 probably illegal.

03:19:07 And when you get a few times a panhandler is harassing

03:19:12 somebody, the police come, they pick them up and you get

03:19:14 those bad actors off the street.

03:19:18 So I like the idea of the spirit of compromise.




03:19:23 But I cannot vote to make something illegal based on the

03:19:30 image.

03:19:31 And honestly when we all talk to each other, when I talk to

03:19:37 constituents, and I talk to people outside of these public

03:19:40 meetings, it is about the Chamber of Commerce and about how

03:19:46 we look.

03:19:48 It's not my job -- the Chamber of Commerce can advocate for

03:19:55 how we look, but it's our job to make sure that the way that

03:19:58 we act and the way that we legislate and the way that we

03:20:03 treat each other is right.

03:20:04 Not how we look.

03:20:05 So if we address the symptoms, then we don't have the

03:20:13 problem.

03:20:14 And Chairman Miranda is right.

03:20:18 If people would quit giving money, you have that choice.

03:20:24 So if you all decide, the majority will win, and in a one

03:20:29 will be out there panhandling.

03:20:31 But I just can't do it.

03:20:33 I feel very bad about this, because -- you know, I said this

03:20:46 many, many, many meetings, and at one point I did try to

03:20:50 make a compromise, with Chairman Scott, because we were

03:20:52 trying to find a way that not only could we allow the

03:20:55 newspapers to still sell their newspapers by doing it on,

03:21:00 you know, roads that were main thoroughfares, but we also

03:21:03 wouldn't completely eliminate the option of people asking




03:21:09 for money but I can't do it and honest, and I'm from one of

03:21:16 those big families that we came up from nothing, too and I

03:21:20 sent my siblings and said, I can't believe this, I have this

03:21:23 decision I have to make, and I don't know who to ask for

03:21:27 help.

03:21:27 And I talked to a lot of preachers, too and rabbis and

03:21:33 anyone who could give me advice.

03:21:34 And I realize that the only person who could have advised me

03:21:40 is my dad, who was on the City Council in this little suburb

03:21:45 where I grew up, and my dad has been gone for a long time.

03:21:50 But I nobody what he would have said, and he would have

03:21:54 said, you know, you have to do what you believe is morally

03:22:00 right.

03:22:00 And I don't think this is just morally.

03:22:04 This is legally.

03:22:05 I don't see a case for us adopting any kind of ban.

03:22:12 I don't see it.

03:22:13 I think it's more important for me to be up here making a

03:22:19 speech, because I am an elected public official, and I do

03:22:24 worry about us starting to criminalize poverty, to

03:22:30 criminalize charity, and it's a slippery slope.

03:22:38 So, yes, I do think there's been a case made that this is

03:22:41 dangerous.

03:22:42 It's not a strong enough case for me.

03:22:47 I don't believe that means it's not a strong enough case for




03:22:49 other people.

03:22:51 But it's not strong enough for me.

03:22:53 But I think that we already see that not only are we talking

03:22:59 about banning panhandling, but we don't want to see the

03:23:03 homeless on the street anymore.

03:23:06 We don't want people to be in the parks.

03:23:13 , and Tampa has been forced into this role, because all of

03:23:18 our peers are doing it.

03:23:19 And I just can't be succumb to have been than peer group

03:23:25 pressure.

03:23:26 It's just not going to work.

03:23:27 So I'm sorry to council that I am not going to work on a

03:23:30 compromise, I can't vote for anything.

03:23:34 And back to you.

03:23:35 Councilwoman Capin.

03:23:37 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay.

03:23:39 I'm going to go ahead and tell you what I'm thinking here;

03:23:45 to propose a six-day, one day, which is option two, with the

03:23:49 exception of newspapers and leaflets which is option 3, with

03:23:54 no severability, and should it be brought down by the

03:23:59 courts, we revert to what we have today, and we have, from

03:24:06 that point, 90 days to -- 90 days to conform to what the

03:24:20 court asks.

03:24:22 Did you understand it?

03:24:23 I am going to repeat it.




03:24:24 Did you understand it?

03:24:25 Did everyone understand it?

03:24:28 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I did but I have a question, actually a

03:24:30 legal question concerning that specifically.

03:24:35 Ms. Kert?

03:24:36 It sounds to me -- and again Karri Ramo on this -- but with

03:24:42 her particular motion, 2 and 3 was to use it, or I think 3

03:24:51 was to use the county ordinance to go forward and make it as

03:24:57 a hybrid case.

03:24:59 Please explain to us what that would do using her particular

03:25:02 motion.

03:25:02 >>REBECCA KERT: To effectuate the first part of the motion

03:25:06 which was the substance of it, combining the six-day ban,

03:25:12 will require us to come back, because -- well, it just will.

03:25:18 >>MIKE SUAREZ: We have to craft a new ordinance?

03:25:20 >> Yes.

03:25:20 I will have to tweak the ordinance that you have before you.

03:25:23 As to the second part of the motion, I do understand Ms.

03:25:27 Capin's concern with the severability language that is

03:25:32 currently in the regulation.

03:25:34 We typically always have severability language.

03:25:38 That means we want to the remain.

03:25:42 We don't have to have that.

03:25:43 In fact, what's in here is much stronger than we normally

03:25:46 would.




03:25:47 I am not sure given the fact that what you have is a ban in

03:25:51 your transportation code on one ordinance, and then off

03:25:54 business regulation to be allow newspaper street sales in

03:25:58 chapter 6, because they are separate ordinances and separate

03:26:02 sections of the code I'm not sure if we can have those all

03:26:06 together.

03:26:06 But at the end of the day the way it's written now it's

03:26:09 intended if anything gets severed you will end up with a

03:26:12 complete ban.

03:26:13 At the same time, even if we were able to make them all fall

03:26:18 together, if any portion of it goes, it all goes.

03:26:20 You will still be under a complete ban because you will be

03:26:22 under Hillsborough County's ban because you will have

03:26:24 nothing in effect.

03:26:30 >>YVONNE CAPIN: And the third part was, if that is the case,

03:26:32 what I am I saying, it reverts to what we have today.

03:26:38 It reverts to what we have today.

03:26:40 And then we have 90 days to come up we've an ordinance that

03:26:47 conforms to the court's orders.

03:26:50 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.

03:27:06 I have a couple concerns about that.

03:27:07 And Mr. Shimberg can certainly jump in.

03:27:10 I have a concern about binding a future council to have to

03:27:15 make a change, and if that council does not want to make a

03:27:18 change.




03:27:20 I am certainly willing to look into the earlier portion

03:27:26 about reverting back to what we have now.

03:27:28 I can't promise that until I start writing it to see how

03:27:32 that's going to play out, because we will be repealing it,

03:27:35 and I'm not sure if you can reenact it based upon a court's

03:27:40 measure.

03:27:40 I think you would actually have to come back.

03:27:45 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay, we are repealing it, therefore it's

03:27:46 not on the books.

03:27:48 So we can't revert to it.

03:27:50 >>REBECCA KERT: Thank you, that's much better.

03:27:55 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I'm trying to understand.

03:27:56 I want to know that I understood what you said.

03:27:58 So, therefore, then we would have to come back and come up

03:28:09 with anew ordinance.

03:28:10 >>REBECCA KERT: Yes.

03:28:14 City Council always has the adoption to adopt a new

03:28:17 ordinance.

03:28:18 >>MARTIN SHELBY: You don't have to, because in the absence

03:28:23 of the ordinance existing, the county's ordinance would

03:28:27 control, until such time as the City Council or future City

03:28:30 Council chooses to come back to the issue.

03:28:34 >>YVONNE CAPIN: That's why I put the 90 days.

03:28:36 Well, if we can't revert, and you are not comfortable with

03:28:42 strapping another council with 90 days to come up with a new




03:28:45 ordinance, then we are in effect, the county's ordinance --

03:28:57 >>JIM SHIMBERG: City attorney.

03:28:57 One thing I want to clarify, first of all, just because

03:29:01 somebody challenges an ordinance, doesn't mean that hits

03:29:05 struck down or declared invalid.

03:29:07 That could be a very long process in order to get to that

03:29:09 point.

03:29:10 Second of all, in the event that that ever happens, we would

03:29:13 always come back to council and say, such and such an

03:29:16 ordinance on the books has now been struck down by a court,

03:29:21 and ask council for your pleasure as to be what you want to

03:29:24 do, if you quantity to be adopt another ordinance, and so we

03:29:27 would always come back to you in that event and ask the

03:29:31 council, this council or future council, what they would

03:29:35 want to do.

03:29:37 I don't think we can bind that council to do something in a

03:29:40 period of time.

03:29:43 >>YVONNE CAPIN: So can it be struck, the --

03:29:49 >>JIM SHIMBERG: We can look at that H.again, the motion that

03:29:50 you made is sort of a combination which will require us to

03:29:53 come back in two weeks for the ordinance.

03:29:59 >>YVONNE CAPIN: If I am understanding you right, whether we

03:30:01 strike it or not, it still will revert to Hillsborough

03:30:05 County if a court of law strikes any part.

03:30:10 >>JIM SHIMBERG: the ordinance that you put in place gets




03:30:14 struck down and we have nothing in place, then Hillsborough

03:30:16 County's would control.

03:30:17 If we have something else in place -- the only time

03:30:20 Hillsborough County's is in control is if you do not have a

03:30:23 conflicting ordinance in place.

03:30:25 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Then why do we have this here?

03:30:26 Why is this here?

03:30:29 Either way it reverts to Hillsborough County.

03:30:31 >>REBECCA KERT: Legal department.

03:30:33 Why do we have the severability language in therein? For a

03:30:38 couple of reasons.

03:30:39 Number one, you do have an option 3, the exemption to

03:30:42 leafletting that Hillsborough County doesn't have.

03:30:44 And in an effort to preserve what council has as its own

03:30:50 ordinance, we have that in there.

03:30:51 The practical effect is if the leafletting person got struck

03:30:55 down, or the newspaper portion got struck down, what you are

03:30:58 left with, if they do severe, looks very similar to what

03:31:02 Hillsborough County has.

03:31:03 So the effect is not that much different.

03:31:08 We were trying to preserve council having its own ordinance

03:31:11 on the books.

03:31:12 >>MIKE SUAREZ: May I make a suggestion?

03:31:18 I apologize.

03:31:19 >>FRANK REDDICK: If that's a motion --




03:31:25 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I didn't put it in the motion.

03:31:26 It's something that I will propose.

03:31:27 But I wanted to discuss it with legal.

03:31:29 It's a discussion.

03:31:31 It's not a motion.

03:31:31 >> I think for the purpose of trying to get forward on what

03:31:46 we are doing on the workshop, I would like to make a

03:31:48 suggestion.

03:31:49 I am going to make a motion.

03:31:51 And then if it survives, dies, whatever happens, then we can

03:31:54 go on to the other options that we have and just continue on

03:31:57 that way until we either get something that we are going to

03:32:01 use or make a decision on what the next steps are.

03:32:03 If I could, I would like to make a motion that we adopt an

03:32:08 ordinance -- and again, I do like the fact that to let the

03:32:16 county do it, but because of some of the language in it, I

03:32:19 would like to have an ordinance similar to the St. Pete

03:32:22 ordinance, because I do like the language in that.

03:32:27 To ban solicitation in the rights-of-way except for those on

03:32:31 the sidewalk, other areas.

03:32:36 >>MARY MULHERN: You made your statement --

03:32:44 >>YVONNE CAPIN: That's a motion.

03:32:44 >>MARY MULHERN: I want to suggest that we hear from

03:32:49 everyone.

03:32:49 >>MIKE SUAREZ: The only reason I said that is because the




03:32:56 motion is not part of the other three options that we have

03:32:59 read on and looked at.

03:33:00 I wanted to bring that out first.

03:33:02 If there is a discussion as part, that's fine, too.

03:33:05 But I just think that because they have gone through all

03:33:08 this work and legal department and Councilman Cohen and

03:33:12 everything else, that I am doing something a little

03:33:14 different, and a little off the reservation, so to speak,

03:33:17 and if it dies, if it doesn't die.

03:33:20 >>MARY MULHERN: We also have Councilwoman Montelione.

03:33:25 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Well, I did agree to hold off until

03:33:32 everybody spoke.

03:33:33 So I am not sure if technically it dies for lack of a second

03:33:36 or I just was holding off until everybody spoke.

03:33:39 >>MARY MULHERN: Can I suggest we have a discussion about

03:33:43 what you have heard, their option?

03:34:06 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Mr. Shimberg, the first time you started

03:34:09 talking about it, it is nearly identical to the

03:34:18 St. Petersburg ordinance.

03:34:21 >>JIM SHIMBERG: City attorney.

03:34:22 I understand the St. Pete only applies to the major --

03:34:26 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Right, major arterials.

03:34:29 >>JIM SHIMBERG: There are some differences.

03:34:30 >> The major arterials.

03:34:34 And my concern with that is -- and I had this concern with




03:34:38 the last council discussing this, that if we la at a ban on

03:34:41 the major arterials, then we run the risk of pushing folks

03:34:48 deeper into neighborhoods.

03:34:50 So that would be my concern about an ordinance, the way they

03:34:56 have it in St. Petersburg.

03:34:57 So I'm still -- I still believe -- and I think correct me if

03:35:03 I am wrong if I have this wrong -- whatever we do, Weaver to

03:35:06 repeal the ordinance on the books.

03:35:07 So --

03:35:10 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Unless we amend it.

03:35:10 >>LISA MONTELIONE: So the ordinance, the motion that I made

03:35:13 previously, still going to have to go first.

03:35:17 But I do have other observations.

03:35:19 To Mr. Reddick's sentiments, and again, you know, I have

03:35:25 great respect for all my colleagues.

03:35:26 We put a lot of thought and a lot of heart wrenching time in

03:35:32 listening to people, and reading things.

03:35:34 And the first speaker, ma'am, I'm telling you, I was almost

03:35:37 moved to tears listening to what you had to say, because it

03:35:42 really reflects how I feel personally.

03:35:45 I have said this before.

03:35:47 I have taken homeless people into my house.

03:35:48 I have fed people.

03:35:49 I have clothed people.

03:35:50 I have taken care of their children.




03:35:52 I still have the pit bull from when they were living with us

03:35:56 because they couldn't not take the dog with them.

03:35:58 So I have done all of those things.

03:36:03 Councilman Cohen has put himself outside of his comfort zone

03:36:07 to go and really spend time to try and learn and to be try

03:36:13 and educate ourselves.

03:36:14 We all have.

03:36:16 And it's not, you know, it's not -- the one exception to

03:36:20 what you said was good old boys patting each other on the

03:36:25 back, and Mr. Suarez said that, we don't come to this

03:36:29 decision easily.

03:36:30 Believe me we don't.

03:36:31 And other councils have debated this in the past, and we

03:36:36 have again here.

03:36:37 The reason it's taken us so long is because we have that

03:36:41 heart, and it's hard for us to try and find a solution,

03:36:46 because the solution does come in increased work, increased

03:36:51 economy, public-private partnerships, being creative,

03:36:54 finding solutions.

03:36:55 I mean, it's going to take the work of a village.

03:36:59 And I think that has been said before.

03:37:03 Businesses, some of them do -- our Publix has a policy of

03:37:08 hiring those who are mentally and physically challenged.

03:37:10 Without the paycheck that some of them receive from their

03:37:14 work as baggers at grocery stores, they might be on the




03:37:17 street.

03:37:19 You know, in the construction industry, therein Bub for the

03:37:26 grace of God go I, because I am near -- you know, I'm near

03:37:30 to the problem than most.

03:37:32 People call us every day lag for jobs.

03:37:36 People we haven't heard from in 15 years are calling us.

03:37:39 Please, you're still in business, I need a job, I'll do

03:37:43 anything.

03:37:43 So I understand.

03:37:45 And no one has ever suggested that we dump people in a field

03:37:50 and just push the problem into Tampa Bay or cover it up or

03:37:53 any such thing.

03:37:54 So I have great respect for you, Mr. Reddick, but that's not

03:37:59 something that any of us have ever expressed sentiments

03:38:05 toward.

03:38:05 We all are committed to working towards opportunity.

03:38:08 We all understand we need beds, we need further assistance,

03:38:11 we need to raise money.

03:38:12 I say it over and over again, we need to raise money for the

03:38:16 causes that are working their tails off to be try to provide

03:38:20 services for people.

03:38:21 We need to protect the freedom of speech.

03:38:26 I buy my sentinel.

03:38:27 I pull over on Lake Avenue.

03:38:29 I pull over to the side of the road and park the car, put




03:38:32 the car in park and make my purchase.

03:38:35 I mean, there are ways of transacting.

03:38:41 I have been out there are with the unions.

03:38:43 And I have been handing out leaflets.

03:38:45 And there are ways to do it.

03:38:47 And Hillsborough County, with my nice cute little drawing,

03:38:52 there are ways where you can still practice your freedom of

03:38:54 speech on the sidewalk.

03:38:57 Not in a lane of traffic.

03:38:59 Not on a median.

03:39:00 And although the statistics may not be there for the

03:39:04 accidents, there are plenty of times when things don't get

03:39:07 reported, and I feel many people have said folks are just

03:39:12 one text message away.

03:39:16 So my motion still stands to repeal our ordinance as it is.

03:39:20 If you want to have more discussion, I agree with you, we

03:39:23 can keep the dialogue going.

03:39:25 We'll have more discussion.

03:39:26 But I believe anything we do today, we are going to have to

03:39:29 take that first step and repeal the ordinance that we have

03:39:31 on the books.

03:39:31 >>MARY MULHERN: Is there a second?

03:39:35 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I'll second that.

03:39:37 >>MARY MULHERN: All in favor -- okay, I'm sorry.

03:39:46 Councilman Cohen.




03:39:51 >> There's a motion on the floor now.

03:39:54 >>MARY MULHERN: You can speak on the motion.

03:40:04 I'm sorry.

03:40:04 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I do want to be hear from Councilman

03:40:14 Cohen.

03:40:14 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I withdraw my second.

03:40:17 >>MARY MULHERN: This is what I used to do to get the

03:40:21 chair's attention.

03:40:22 >>HARRY COHEN: Before we had motions on the floor, I think

03:40:26 it would be helpful to review where we are at this moment.

03:40:29 There are six of us sitting up here.

03:40:31 Everyone has expressed a view on what they are or are not

03:40:35 comfortable with.

03:40:36 So in my mind, the best way to proceed forward is be to

03:40:41 start looking to the areas of agreement and see where we can

03:40:46 bridge some of the areas of disagreement.

03:40:49 I have great respect for councilwoman Mulhern.

03:40:53 From what I heard, however, she is not inclined to be part

03:40:56 of a compromise solution, but there are five other members

03:41:00 up here that are.

03:41:02 I heard from Councilman Reddick a concern about the

03:41:07 firefighters collecting for muscular dystrophy, and I heard

03:41:11 from Councilwoman Capin a concern about the severability

03:41:16 language.

03:41:17 For the moment I am putting aside Councilwoman Montelione




03:41:20 and Councilman's Suarez's concerns about the issue of just

03:41:26 going forward with the St. Pete style ordinance.

03:41:28 I have heard that as well.

03:41:29 But I am again trying to find the common ground between what

03:41:33 I would call now the five remaining votes.

03:41:39 My first question is for legal department.

03:41:41 Is it possible to come back with an ordinance that combines

03:41:45 options 2 and 3?

03:41:48 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Yes.

03:41:48 >>HARRY COHEN: Okay.

03:41:51 If we were to do that, and I just want to clarify this, the

03:41:54 language in option 2 would directly address Mr. Reddick's

03:42:01 concern, correct?

03:42:03 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Correct.

03:42:03 >>HARRY COHEN: In terms of the severability issue that

03:42:07 Councilwoman Capin raised, I will tell you the truth.

03:42:13 My preference was to have the severability language in there

03:42:17 because I felt that if something happened down the road,

03:42:22 where a portion of it were declared unconstitutional, at

03:42:26 least the rest of it would still stand.

03:42:28 But it seems to me that if that language is removed, there's

03:42:33 nothing that prevents this council from coming back

03:42:35 immediately and determining what course of action it wants

03:42:39 to take regarding moving forward in the future.

03:42:42 After all, we don't know what portion of the ordinance might




03:42:46 be struck down.

03:42:47 So it's very difficult to address preemptively what we don't

03:42:51 know.

03:42:54 >>JIM SHIMBERG: City attorney.

03:42:55 And Mr. Shelby can correct me if I am wrong.

03:42:57 But council could always come back and make a change to an

03:43:00 ordinance at any time.

03:43:03 You just have the process.

03:43:04 So I agree with what you are saying.

03:43:06 >>HARRY COHEN: So we can go back for a motion.

03:43:13 But the fact of the matter is there is only one thing that I

03:43:16 have heard said today that has any way of passing, and that

03:43:23 is a hybrid of options 2 and 3, with getting rid of the

03:43:27 severability.

03:43:30 If that's the case, I would respectfully suggest that we

03:43:34 move in that direction.

03:43:35 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilman Capin.

03:43:43 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you, Councilman Cohen.

03:43:45 I also want to say in reference to when I referred to that

03:43:51 should it be struck down, the 90 days to come back, and

03:43:55 there was a concern about putting that under another

03:43:59 council.

03:44:00 It may be a concern, but it's not a rule.

03:44:03 It can be done.

03:44:05 Now, they can ignore it or they can act on it.




03:44:09 Either one.

03:44:10 It's the council's choice.

03:44:13 >>JIM SHIMBERG: You can bring the issue back.

03:44:15 >>YVONNE CAPIN: 90 days, no term, but to come back.

03:44:18 But that is moot because we just said, which is -- that was

03:44:24 my thought.

03:44:25 I wanted to put that out there because I wanted to clarify

03:44:27 that we may not be comfortable be putting 90 days on a

03:44:33 future council -- City Council.

03:44:37 But it is not something that we cannot do.

03:44:42 So I wanted to clear that up.

03:44:44 The other thing was that when I heard Councilman Cohen

03:44:50 again, what are we agreeing on?

03:44:54 Well, a few of us.

03:44:58 3 and 2 with severability, and then I would like to add

03:45:06 something for council to act on, because we can leave it the

03:45:12 way it is.

03:45:13 For instance, if the leaflet part of 2 and 3, if we come up

03:45:18 with that compromise, is struck down, we don't have to do

03:45:21 anything.

03:45:22 It just stays.

03:45:24 Right?

03:45:26 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I'm a little confused about your

03:45:28 severability.

03:45:28 You are asking us to remove the severability provision.




03:45:30 That's what protects you in the event that part of it but

03:45:33 not all of is it struck down.

03:45:35 So finance you want to leave that in there, because, for

03:45:37 example, if part of it was struck down, the rest of it would

03:45:40 still be -- if any of it is struck down, you want it to come

03:45:43 automatically back to council?

03:45:45 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I want council -- yes, I want it -- and

03:45:48 council has -- the council will have the benefit -- that

03:45:52 council at that time, to act on that.

03:45:56 And I would say whatever the court deems, or they have the

03:46:05 choice to ignore it or to act on it.

03:46:07 It is not -- be and --

03:46:13 >>HARRY COHEN: Actually that's a great point.

03:46:15 The fact of the matter is, the court, we are can't

03:46:17 anticipate what somebody court may or may not do.

03:46:21 But what we do know is that regardless of what they do, the

03:46:24 very next Thursday, this council can come back and react,

03:46:28 and devote to do -- vote to do whatever it would like.

03:46:32 So we may be putting the cart before the horse in getting

03:46:35 too far afield with this whole severability argument.

03:46:39 >>MARY MULHERN: I expressed my feeling about the three

03:46:44 options that we have.

03:46:47 And I have to say this.

03:46:52 We were brought three options than were written by legal.

03:46:59 And I know Councilman Cohen did a lot of work on them.




03:47:02 But Councilwoman Capin, you brought up some very important

03:47:07 points about it, and I think what you are faced with here is

03:47:12 the fact that while you are trying to arrive -- we are

03:47:18 trying to arrive at a compromise, because this council did

03:47:20 not want, ever want to adopt a complete ban.

03:47:27 I think that you have a very valid problem, and it basically

03:47:37 says, if, in fact -- and I wonder if that's inviting someone

03:47:42 to challenge it.

03:47:43 But I -- I hate to say it because I know we want to be done.

03:47:49 But the fact of repealing our ordinances and basically

03:47:56 adopting the county's and then adding the exception was a

03:48:01 decision on how to write this as a policy decision, of three

03:48:07 different options, and if you are not happy with it -- to be

03:48:17 come back with this that says what you, with this council is

03:48:20 comfortable with.

03:48:21 So I think that --

03:48:25 >>JIM SHIMBERG: We have to do have that anyway.

03:48:27 >>HARRY COHEN: I don't think this issue is unsurmountable.

03:48:34 I really don't.

03:48:35 I this that our legal team heard what we have to say today.

03:48:38 I think it's clear what the concern is.

03:48:40 And if it's not addressed, then we take up whatever is

03:48:45 brought back to us, then you can vote no.

03:48:47 I'm sorry.

03:48:48 >>FRANK REDDICK: All right?




03:48:55 Well, sitting here thinking, I'm going to ask legal to come

03:49:02 up with another option, and that is, I don't want a complete

03:49:05 ban.

03:49:07 I want us to look at a four-day ban, a ban of three days

03:49:15 with option of four, that will allow newspapers sales, and

03:49:26 also ow on the street, so it won't be a complete ban.

03:49:31 And then I'm also -- ask that you also include a description

03:49:37 of hours of operation, for the public on that.

03:49:44 So basically what I'm asking is that not a complete ban

03:49:49 seven days of the week, so I would like to see an option

03:49:53 where people will be able to be out there four days --

03:50:02 >> three days?

03:50:03 >> Well, I was looking at four days, and the days I was

03:50:07 going to specify, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and

03:50:15 come up with a restriction on hours of eight to five, or

03:50:22 sunrise to five, and I just want to see that option as well.

03:50:26 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilwoman Montelione.

03:50:30 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Well, I think, the way I understand it,

03:50:34 I am going to do a recap.

03:50:38 Option 2, because just for the public watching, it's very

03:50:41 confusing when you go two, three, all these numbers.

03:50:45 Option 2 would be similar to the Pasco County ordinance

03:50:51 which allows solicitation on Sundays.

03:50:55 It's a six-day ban.

03:50:57 On option 3 is an exemption which would have allowed




03:51:04 exemptions, which would be a seven-day ban, with the

03:51:09 exception of newspapers and transactions not requiring the

03:51:13 exchange of an object which means you can leaflet.

03:51:16 So there's freedom of speech protected in there.

03:51:19 That would allow any day of the week, any day of the week,

03:51:23 you can transact newspapers or things that are not requiring

03:51:29 the exchange of an object.

03:51:30 So you can do that seven days a week.

03:51:33 So I'm not sure why we would go to three or four days or

03:51:37 something like that, because those things would be allowed

03:51:40 seven days a week under option 3.

03:51:43 Including the newspapers.

03:51:48 >>FRANK REDDICK: Yeah, but limit to firefighters if they

03:51:51 wanted to be out there.

03:51:54 Is that correct?

03:51:55 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Well, it's transactions not requiring

03:51:57 the exchange of an object.

03:51:58 >> I think the firefighters were covered understood option 2

03:52:04 so did it limit them to Sunday.

03:52:05 But what I heard from the speaker for muscular dystrophy was

03:52:11 that was an acceptable -- that was acceptable.

03:52:14 >>MARY MULHERN: You have to come to the microphone.

03:52:18 >>LISA MONTELIONE: If you want to speak you have to come to

03:52:20 the microphone.

03:52:20 But that's what my clarification is for the public watching.




03:52:23 Option 2 would be a six-day ban, and Sunday only.

03:52:27 So that would be allow anybody on Sunday.

03:52:30 And if we combine that with option 3, it wore allow the

03:52:35 protection for the freedom of speech and for newspapers

03:52:39 sales seven days a week.

03:52:41 So that's what the combination of 2 and 3 would be do.

03:52:47 Personally, I understand from legal and what you have said

03:52:51 earlier, I'm not sure the severability is -- would be

03:52:56 something that I could support removing the severability,

03:52:58 because if -- if perhaps this gets challenged, and the court

03:53:04 comes back with, well, you can keep the Sunday-only part,

03:53:09 because you are not excepting out one particular group.

03:53:13 Everybody, no matter what their cause is, can be out there

03:53:15 on a Sunday and you are not showing protection for one group

03:53:20 over another.

03:53:21 If the court comes back and says, well, that part is okay,

03:53:25 the rest of it, you know, is unconstitutional as far as

03:53:28 newspaper transactions go, then at least we have the Sunday

03:53:34 only.

03:53:34 So that's why my reason for keeping the severability in

03:53:37 there.

03:53:38 >>MARY MULHERN: Can we hear from -- just one question.

03:53:42 >> If that's the compromise that is going to be the one that

03:53:47 gets passed, yes, out of all the three options, Sunday we

03:53:51 would prefer, because to be able to walk on the streets on




03:53:56 one day.

03:53:56 It's not the best day, but it's better than no day.

03:53:59 >>HARRY COHEN: I just want to make a comment about the

03:54:05 four-day suggestion because here is the problem that I see

03:54:07 with the four-day option.

03:54:09 Similar to actually -- Councilwoman Capin had suggested a

03:54:12 five-day option at one point.

03:54:14 If you examine the traffic data, there is simply not data to

03:54:20 support choosing one day over another as a public safety

03:54:24 issue.

03:54:25 The issue with Sunday is than there's less traffic on

03:54:28 Sunday, there's less going on on the road, people are not

03:54:32 drinking on Sunday mornings the way that have been they may

03:54:35 be during the rest of the week.

03:54:37 So if you look -- if you look at the -- if you look at the

03:54:42 crash statistics, you will see that Sunday morning is a much

03:54:46 safer time to be out on the road.

03:54:47 When you get anything beyond Sunday, it becomes very, very

03:54:52 difficult to make an argument based on the traffic patterns.

03:54:55 And that's what has constrained us from going down that

03:54:59 road.

03:55:00 Otherwise, when we were looking at the sentinel's concerns,

03:55:03 we could have looked at Tuesdays and Fridays, but there just

03:55:07 wasn't -- there just wasn't a factual basis there.

03:55:10 >>FRANK REDDICK: Based on what we have here, you are saying




03:55:13 combine the 2 and 3 and we can come up with seven days be,

03:55:20 you can just go out there seven days a week, is that what

03:55:23 you are saying?

03:55:25 >>HARRY COHEN: Or if you are expecting -- excepting purely

03:55:28 political speech.

03:55:29 >>FRANK REDDICK: Okay.

03:55:33 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.

03:55:34 That is the compromise that I was proposing.

03:55:35 But I would like to keep striking the severability because

03:55:40 you can act on it at any time.

03:55:43 If any part is struck you can come back and it will cancel

03:55:49 it.

03:55:50 But come back -- I do believe, and if both parties are --

03:55:59 parts are canceled, it is a total ban.

03:56:01 And I would rather the be council address it without the

03:56:11 severability.

03:56:16 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Can I ask legal a question?

03:56:18 I don't want to see this drag on to yet another council

03:56:20 meeting where we are going to have another full-blown

03:56:24 discussion, and open up the can of worms by bringing it back

03:56:27 once again.

03:56:28 So can we do this?

03:56:30 Can be we pass what councilwoman Capin is asking for, a

03:56:38 combination of option 2 and option 3, striking severability,

03:56:42 and pass that ordinance today?




03:56:46 >>JIM SHIMBERG: No.

03:56:47 We can't do that because that's a combination.

03:56:50 We don't have it ready today.

03:56:51 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Can we do this?

03:56:54 Can be we pass the combination of option 2 and option 3, and

03:56:59 then next month bring back an ordinance than strikes the

03:57:05 severability, so that this way, we already had the

03:57:08 discussion, we have already made the decision, and all we

03:57:10 are doing is bringing it back for an amendment to the

03:57:13 ordinance that we passed today?

03:57:19 >>MARY MULHERN: If you can agree on what you want to pass,

03:57:21 and it's going to include striking that severability, this

03:57:26 is a workshop meeting.

03:57:29 They can come back with one ordinance at our next Meg

03:57:31 regular meeting.

03:57:34 County pass on first reading consideration.

03:57:36 So I think it's better to write something that will pass

03:57:40 than to -- the majority is in agreement on?

03:57:49 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Can I say one thing?

03:57:50 First I agree with what you said.

03:57:52 We do need to come back because there are some

03:57:53 inconsistencies between 3 and 2 so we would need to sort of

03:58:00 Taylor that.

03:58:01 But we do have some concern with striking severability.

03:58:04 My understanding is that, you know, the city always puts




03:58:07 that in every ordinance in order to really protect council.

03:58:10 And so we need to just look at that, and whether we can

03:58:13 strike that.

03:58:15 Council could always look at the issue.

03:58:17 If part of it gets struck and there's nothing to stop you

03:58:20 from immediately considering an amendment.

03:58:23 But by taking the severability out of all of these is

03:58:28 something we just need to look at and make sure that we can

03:58:31 feel comfortable with that.

03:58:32 We are not ready to say that right out.

03:58:35 I understand your point.

03:58:36 I understand your point, that you don't want the court to be

03:58:40 able to pick and choose and council to be stuck with that.

03:58:42 You want council to be then have an opportunity to come

03:58:45 back.

03:58:45 But you do have that opportunity anyway.

03:58:50 >>YVONNE CAPIN: But I want it in writing.

03:58:51 I want the council -- they go ignore it, but they have to

03:58:54 address it.

03:58:55 They have to choose not to do anything.

03:58:59 That's what I am asking.

03:59:01 In writing.

03:59:02 If the severability is not struck, then on there, the

03:59:07 council, whoever is sitting here, will have to address it.

03:59:10 If they choose to ignore it and leave it as is, that is




03:59:14 their choice.

03:59:16 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I'm wondering --

03:59:18 >>YVONNE CAPIN: But I don't want it to be ignored.

03:59:20 I want it to have to be addressed.

03:59:22 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Mr. Shelby, is there a way if they pass it

03:59:25 they could have a special motion attached to it saying if

03:59:27 any part of is it struck down by a court that it would be

03:59:30 brought back to council for consideration?

03:59:32 >>MARY MULHERN: Let me ask you a question.

03:59:34 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I think you can do that which would solve it

03:59:36 without taking the severability out.

03:59:37 >>MARY MULHERN: Be if an ordinance that council has passed

03:59:42 is declared -- is struck down, unconstitutional, doesn't it

03:59:48 come back to us always?

03:59:50 >>JIM SHIMBERG: We won bring that to you.

03:59:51 But the way that severability language reads, if a portion

03:59:54 of it gets struck down, it doesn't invalidate the rest of

03:59:57 it.

03:59:58 And what she is, I think, asking for, if any portion of it

04:00:02 gets struck down, it would invalidate the whole thing, even

04:00:05 the parts that were not unconstitutional.

04:00:07 So my issue is maybe just have been a separate motion saying

04:00:10 that if any part of it is struck down, it would be brought

04:00:14 back to council for a discussion as to whether you want to

04:00:17 take any further action.




04:00:18 It won't force you to but it would at least bring it back to

04:00:21 you.

04:00:22 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Right, it would have to addressed.

04:00:25 Whatever is decided is decided.

04:00:27 At the same time you can leave the severability and protect

04:00:29 the portions which I think was the concern here.

04:00:32 So then we have a compromise.

04:00:35 I think.

04:00:35 >>HARRY COHEN: Could be I go ahead and make a motion now?

04:00:44 Be to have our legal department bring back on September 22nd

04:00:47 at our next regular council meeting an hybrid between

04:00:53 options 2 and 3 for our first reading consideration.

04:00:58 I don't think that it requires any more detail than that.

04:01:04 >> Second.

04:01:05 >>MARY MULHERN: For the folks with the cameras, you mate

04:01:11 want to explain what that is.

04:01:12 For the media.

04:01:13 >> Option 2 would be Sunday only.

04:01:15 >>HARRY COHEN: I would like to make a motion to ask the

04:01:18 legal department to be bring back an ordinance than

04:01:21 basically combines what we have been referring to as option

04:01:25 2, which is a Sunday-only, allowing for street solicitation

04:01:31 on Sunday only, to combine that with option 3, which is a

04:01:37 specific exemption for newspapers and purely political

04:01:41 speech and leafletting, that the combination of those two




04:01:46 things would address all of the concerns including --

04:01:49 including charitable organizations' ability to solicit, that

04:01:54 have been expressed at today's meeting.

04:01:56 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Second.

04:01:57 >>MARY MULHERN: Motion made by council -- question on the

04:02:00 motion?

04:02:02 >>FRANK REDDICK: So, in sees essence, one day a week,

04:02:06 Sunday, where you have solicitation on the street.

04:02:11 Cohen cone you would be allowed on a Sunday to do anything

04:02:15 you are allowed to do now, sell newspapers and solicit for

04:02:19 charity.

04:02:20 On the other six days of the weak, you would be able to sell

04:02:23 newspapers and to engage in purely political speech.

04:02:26 >>FRANK REDDICK: So the people out there with signs, will

04:02:30 they be allowed on Sunday?

04:02:34 >>HARRY COHEN: Yes.

04:02:35 Well, somebody just holding a sign that wasn't interacting

04:02:38 with a car would be able to do it seven days a week,

04:02:40 wouldn't they?

04:02:41 >>FRANK REDDICK: I'm saying what people are doing now, if

04:02:44 they are asking for money.

04:02:46 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Correct, that would be allowed only on

04:02:48 Sunday.

04:02:49 Cohen cone only on Sunday.

04:02:50 >>MARY MULHERN: Mass made by Councilman Cohen, seconded by




04:02:53 Councilman Montelione.

04:02:55 All in favor?

04:02:57 Anyone opposed? Nay.

04:02:58 >>THE CLERK: Motion carried with Mulhern voting no and

04:03:05 Miranda absent.

04:03:06 >>MARY MULHERN: And the ordinance will come back on

04:03:12 September 22nd?

04:03:16 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Should that be brought back as unfinished

04:03:20 business or did you want that for ordinances for first

04:03:22 reading?

04:03:24 The question is where did you want to the appear on the

04:03:27 agenda? It will be for first reading consideration, but I'm

04:03:29 just curious as to where it would appear.

04:03:31 >>HARRY COHEN: Councilwoman Capin, I think, is concerned

04:03:35 that her item is not -- was not enunciated as part of that

04:03:39 request.

04:03:40 Did legal understand that to be part of the motion, or does

04:03:43 the motion need to be restated?

04:03:50 >>MARY MULHERN: Excuse me.

04:03:51 Councilwoman Capin.

04:03:56 >>JIM SHIMBERG: At second reading, as part of the adoption

04:03:59 of this ordinance, could you then make that motion if it's

04:04:05 ever struck down, if parts are ever struck down, to come

04:04:09 back to council.

04:04:10 That's what I think you are saying.




04:04:12 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.

04:04:13 As opposed to now?

04:04:14 >>JIM SHIMBERG: You can make the motion now.

04:04:16 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I make the motion now.

04:04:17 >> Second.

04:04:18 >>JIM SHIMBERG: That will at the time you pass it on second

04:04:20 reading quo also consider that motion.

04:04:23 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Correct.

04:04:24 The motion is to have in writing that if any part of the

04:04:31 ordinance is struck that the sitting council will have to --

04:04:36 will have to address --

04:04:39 >>JIM SHIMBERG: That it will come back to council.

04:04:42 >>YVONNE CAPIN: It will come back to council and be

04:04:43 addressed.

04:04:44 >>MARY MULHERN: Motion by Councilwoman Capin, seconded by

04:04:47 Councilwoman Montelione.

04:04:48 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Clarification.

04:04:50 Sorry.

04:04:51 The request to have it in writing is to be brought back for

04:04:55 second read?

04:04:57 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Well, she's asking for a motion.

04:05:00 It's not an ordinance.

04:05:00 It's a motion that would --

04:05:05 >> That's not an ordinance.

04:05:08 If council wishes to have it in writing, council could have




04:05:10 it as a resolution.

04:05:12 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Okay.

04:05:12 >>MARY MULHERN: Councilwoman Capin, I believe she wanted

04:05:15 that, this to be part of the ordinance.

04:05:20 Is that correct?

04:05:22 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.

04:05:25 >>: That's why I didn't call on you because I thought it was

04:05:28 included in the ordinance.

04:05:34 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I thought we were talking about basically

04:05:36 having it as a council motion which could be in writing and

04:05:38 could be formal as you want it to be.

04:05:42 I mean, between we are talking about if in the future, if

04:05:45 it's challenged, if in the future a portion of it is struck

04:05:48 down.

04:05:49 If the whole thing is struck down, it would not be relevant.

04:05:52 If only a portion of it is struck down, you want it to come

04:05:54 back to council for action but you can't force action.

04:06:00 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Portion of it or all of it?

04:06:01 It's a portion or all of it is struck down, that is what I

04:06:04 am looking at.

04:06:05 Then it would be -- I actually wanted to add that to the

04:06:10 ordinance.

04:06:12 >>JIM SHIMBERG: How about if we bring that back on the 22nd

04:06:14 within the appropriate way to do that along with first

04:06:17 reading?




04:06:21 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I'm willing to do that.

04:06:23 >>MARY MULHERN: As part of the ordinance, or as its own

04:06:27 ordinance?

04:06:29 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Correct.

04:06:30 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I understood it to be a stand-alone

04:06:33 ordinance.

04:06:33 >> We would have two ordinances.

04:06:39 >>YVONNE CAPIN: State your motion.

04:06:41 >>YVONNE CAPIN: That was not the intention to begin with.

04:06:43 But then when legal came up, we decided that we would make

04:06:46 it a separate ordinance, is what I was looking at.

04:06:49 So the motion is to come back on the 22nd with an ordinance

04:06:54 to have in writing, should any part of this, of the

04:06:58 ordinance, the 1 and 2, to be struck down, or severability

04:07:05 that council would have to have address that.

04:07:11 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. Shelby, do we need to --

04:07:16 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I think it could be put on council agenda

04:07:20 for consideration.

04:07:21 You can't force them to have been address it.

04:07:22 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Council, I have a concern that this is in

04:07:25 the form of an ordinance to be placed in the code of

04:07:27 ordinances.

04:07:27 I don't think that's an appropriate part of it.

04:07:30 One thing that may be a suggestion -- and I'm thinking

04:07:33 frankly off the cuff now -- the option, I believe, that Mr.




04:07:37 Shimberg had given this council can be in the form of a

04:07:40 motion.

04:07:41 Council can put it in writing which then becomes a

04:07:44 resolution which is then numbered and maintained by the

04:07:47 clerk.

04:07:49 Perhaps the third option would be to put a clause in there

04:07:52 saying, if any portion of this shall be found

04:07:55 unconstitutional, the city attorney shall so inform City

04:07:59 Council, and perhaps that would just put that within the

04:08:02 ordinance that the city attorney would be then be on notice

04:08:05 to inform you, or whatever City Council sitting at the time,

04:08:08 if that is an issue.

04:08:10 That is just thinking off the cuff.

04:08:11 I think we would do that anyway.

04:08:17 >>YVONNE CAPIN: One thing is to be informed and one thing is

04:08:20 to address it.

04:08:21 If nothing is done, can't do that.

04:08:24 >> We can't force council to be a dress an issue.

04:08:27 We can't force you to address it.

04:08:29 You may decide not to do anything.

04:08:30 >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I can follow up.

04:08:33 Council sometimes is forced to do that by a sunset

04:08:36 provision, which wouldn't in effect be the same thing?

04:08:44 It has almost the same effect as you giving the judge a

04:08:48 sunset.




04:08:51 >>JIM SHIMBERG: But if something sunsets, it doesn't force

04:08:53 them to put something else in place.

04:08:55 They mate just say we don't need that regulation anymore.

04:08:58 So there's nothing they can force council to be do anything.

04:09:02 We can bring it back to you for consideration, but if four

04:09:06 beds decide to do something they can't force you to do it.

04:09:09 >>

04:09:12 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I would like it to have to come back to

04:09:14 council.

04:09:15 That it comes back, and it is looked at, ignored, or --

04:09:24 >>JIM SHIMBERG: We are all saying we are going to bring it

04:09:26 back.

04:09:26 We are just deciding to best way to do it.

04:09:30 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Exactly.

04:09:30 So think about it.

04:09:31 >>MARY MULHERN: Mr. Shimberg, I'm confused.

04:09:34 And Mr. Shelby, you have been here longer.

04:09:37 So -- or maybe Mrs. Kert can tell us.

04:09:41 But when council -- I asked this before, and I don't feel

04:09:45 like it got answered.

04:09:47 If we pass an ordinance and it becomes litigated and found

04:09:53 to be unconstitutional, doesn't it always -- are we informed

04:10:00 of that so that should we -- don't we need to be informed of

04:10:04 it?

04:10:04 Don't we have to -- don't we have to change our code if our




04:10:08 code is struck down?

04:10:13 >>JIM SHIMBERG: The attorney would have obligation in my

04:10:15 opinion to inform you of that.

04:10:16 I don't know that it's written in your charter.

04:10:18 But it is the obligation.

04:10:20 City attorney to be bring that back to you.

04:10:22 >>MARY MULHERN: Just the normal process of law, right?

04:10:26 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I think she's asking for more than that.

04:10:28 Because as I said we do that anyway.

04:10:30 If something is declared unconstitutional, if one of your

04:10:33 codes is we are going to bring that back to you anyway, at a

04:10:36 minimum just to let you know, but if we want to have that be

04:10:39 required, in this particular case, we can put of that in.

04:10:43 And again, if you would just let us work with Mr. Shelby and

04:10:48 Mrs. Kert and figure out the best way to ensure that that

04:10:51 happens.

04:10:51 I understand you don't want to just trust the fact that it's

04:10:54 the practice of this city attorney to do that, but we can

04:10:57 figure out a way to put it in writing, where council would

04:11:02 be comfortable, and if you are not you don't have to pass it

04:11:04 on the 22nd.

04:11:08 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I would very much appreciate that.

04:11:09 Because I think we could be here all night trying to figure

04:11:12 out --

04:11:12 >>MARY MULHERN: I think we are passed -- no, we are almost




04:11:16 done.

04:11:16 We are getting there.

04:11:19 We already passed that motion.

04:11:28 We'll come back, and have some discussion, an explanation,

04:11:34 maybe some resolution.

04:11:36 >>THE CLERK: There has not been a vote on the motion by

04:11:42 Councilman Capin.

04:11:43 >>MARY MULHERN: You made a motion.

04:11:45 And I thought we voted it.

04:11:47 You didn't vote on the first motion we made?

04:11:52 >> We did vote on the first motion.

04:11:54 >>THE CLERK: You have not voted on the motion by --

04:11:58 >>MARY MULHERN: That's where we are.

04:11:59 That's we said we can do.

04:12:00 So we don't need to vote on your second motion.

04:12:03 >>YVONNE CAPIN: No.

04:12:04 That was -- they are concerned about the severability.

04:12:07 That will be looked into, also.

04:12:08 The severability.

04:12:13 Striking that part also.

04:12:16 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I thought we had gotten passed that in this

04:12:19 other way in the back.

04:12:22 We can look into it.

04:12:23 But right now we are not comfortable taking that out.

04:12:27 We thought we had worked it out by requiring it to come back




04:12:29 to council for consideration.

04:12:33 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Cap just for the record if there is nothing

04:12:35 done about this severability it will be a full ban.

04:12:37 So that everyone understands, if it is struck down by the

04:12:41 courts with this clause in here, it will revert -- it will

04:12:46 also be a full ban with the county, with no provision in

04:12:51 there.

04:12:53 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Well, the confusing part is there's several

04:12:55 parts to this that we are talking about.

04:12:59 And if any one part of it is struck down, it doesn't create

04:13:03 a full ban.

04:13:04 The other parts are still in effect.

04:13:09 If the whole thing is struck down the county ordinance will

04:13:13 apply but anything short of that, you sterile have been the

04:13:15 ordinance.

04:13:15 And that is something that would come back to council for

04:13:17 consideration.

04:13:19 And the if the court said it was unconstitutional you aren't

04:13:23 going to be able to just readopt it.

04:13:25 But there might be other options at that time that we can

04:13:28 bring to you but we can't speculate to that.

04:13:30 I'm just telling you, when council takes an action and

04:13:33 passes an ordinance, it usually has more than just, you

04:13:36 know, one part of it.

04:13:39 So that's why we are saying the severability provision




04:13:44 provides, if one part gets struck down the rest of it is

04:13:46 still in effect.

04:13:47 Council can then amend it.

04:13:49 So I think we are all on the same page.

04:13:53 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Then we can amend it to add the severability

04:13:56 at that point so we don't actually lose it and become a

04:13:58 total ban at that point.

04:14:01 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Correct.

04:14:04 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Is that what we are talking?

04:14:06 >>JIM SHIMBERG: She's saying she doesn't want to the become

04:14:07 a total ban without council having to have an opportunity to

04:14:10 consider the alternatives.

04:14:12 You don't want it to automatically become a total ban if

04:14:17 part of it is struck down.

04:14:20 >>YVONNE CAPIN: If part of it is struck down, at that point,

04:14:25 you can strike the severability so if any other part is

04:14:27 struck down, we don't wind up with a total ban.

04:14:32 Do you understand?

04:14:36 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Madam Chair, one thing.

04:14:38 Severability is there to protect us in terms of our

04:14:40 ordinance.

04:14:41 So we are talking about Sundays, or we are talking about

04:14:46 newspapers, we are talking about any other part.

04:14:48 The court may come back and say no more Sundays.

04:14:50 We still have our ban.




04:14:51 We can allow those other two parts of it.

04:14:54 So your motion, or your concern about severability, does

04:14:59 nothing, does nothing to bring it back to council.

04:15:04 Whether it's there or not.

04:15:05 It's going to come back to us in the normal course as a

04:15:11 litigant in the court of law.

04:15:12 The city attorney has an obligation as our attorney and as

04:15:18 his client, to come back to us and say, listen, you passed

04:15:21 an ordinance that of the four parts you had, one of them did

04:15:25 not pass, and it did not pass Constitutional muster, and

04:15:28 because of that, it has to come back to you to either, A,

04:15:32 find a way that it fits in Constitutional muster, or B,

04:15:36 eliminate it altogether and not take action at all.

04:15:39 So severabilities is for us to protect us as a council, to

04:15:43 make sure that the things that we pass stay in as law, as

04:15:48 ordinances.

04:15:49 So this discussion about removing severability does nothing

04:15:52 to help us, it does nothing for future councils, it does

04:15:55 nothing to bring us up.

04:15:57 I'm just following the argument from the attorney, following

04:16:00 from what I know of severability in terms of other types of

04:16:04 contracts, so we cannot force -- and it's bad law in my

04:16:09 mind, and I don't want to belabor this point -- to put in

04:16:13 there that it has to come back to downfall council.

04:16:16 It's always under our purview that we can take up anything




04:16:21 that concerns our ordinances.

04:16:23 That's why the severability argument, I think, it doesn't

04:16:27 really do anything.

04:16:28 Now that's my point.

04:16:32 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Give us a chance to be take a look at the

04:16:34 severability language.

04:16:35 We understand the concern that council member Capin has

04:16:37 raised, and we'll look at it and see when we bring it back.

04:16:43 In the meantime if there's a way to change that language a

04:16:45 little bit to provide additional protection we'll do that.

04:16:48 But I agree with what Councilman Suarez said.

04:16:51 It's there to protect you guys.

04:16:55 >>YVONNE CAPIN: It's there to protect us when we have the

04:16:57 combination of two. If it was just one of those, if it was

04:17:00 just one of those, which is what we have here is one of

04:17:04 each, then severability would cancel it.

04:17:09 I mean, having this on there would cancel whatever, because

04:17:14 we are changing it, that is understood.

04:17:17 Because we are changing it, it is a protection of the second

04:17:21 part that is there.

04:17:23 If only one part.

04:17:24 But the way, what we have here today, and what I was

04:17:27 bringing up, is that there was only -- one was number 3, one

04:17:33 was number 2, and severability that was on there would

04:17:37 have -- would have been a total ban.




04:17:44 So, therefore, I appreciate that and I will like for you to

04:17:48 please come forward.

04:17:50 >>MARY MULHERN: I am going to ask that we vote, because --

04:17:54 and this is because I understand what your concerns,

04:17:59 Councilwoman Capin, and support them.

04:18:01 I am going to ask that we vote, because apparently we never

04:18:03 voted when you made your orange motion.

04:18:09 Original motion.

04:18:10 >>MARTIN SHELBY: We did -- I'm sorry.

04:18:15 I'm sorry.

04:18:16 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm trying to run this meeting.

04:18:17 Councilwoman Capin.

04:18:18 If you would like to make a motion to ensure that the legal

04:18:22 department meets with you and comes back with some kind of

04:18:27 at least a recommendation to be you that might possibly be

04:18:32 an amendment to the motion, which will address your

04:18:36 concerns, which I think are very clear to us, and discuss

04:18:41 this with them in the meantime, if you would like to do

04:18:46 that, I think you started to do it.

04:18:49 I think we had a second.

04:18:51 I think we could just take a vote.

04:18:53 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I appreciate it.

04:18:54 I will Maersk that motion.

04:18:55 >>HARRY COHEN: Second.

04:18:56 >>MARY MULHERN: All in favor?




04:18:57 Anyone opposed?

04:18:59 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Nay.

04:19:02 >>THE CLERK: Suarez voting no and Miranda absent.

04:19:12 >>MARY MULHERN: We do have one item still on our agenda.

04:19:17 (off microphone)

04:19:19 Mrs. Montelione, it was a motion that you made and I

04:19:26 seconded.

04:19:28 >>LISA MONTELIONE: That was removed from the agenda.

04:19:35 Item 3?

04:19:36 >>MARY MULHERN: We never did that at the beginning of the

04:19:38 meeting.

04:19:38 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Okay.

04:19:39 I move to remove item number 3 from today's agenda.

04:19:42 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Second.

04:19:44 >>MARY MULHERN: All in favor?

04:19:46 Anyone opposed? Normally we don't do new business.

04:19:49 But if anyone feels --

04:19:52 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I'm sorry, I do have two pieces of new

04:19:55 business.

04:19:57 Or I can do it later.

04:19:59 I can do it later.

04:20:00 I'm sorry.

04:20:04 We can do it later.

04:20:05 >>MARY MULHERN: You will be here and you can do it later?

04:20:11 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Yes, I can do it later.




04:20:13 >>MARY MULHERN: Can we have a motion to receive and file?

04:20:16 >> Motion to receive and file.

04:20:17 >> Second.

04:20:18 >>: All in favor?

04:20:18 We are adjourned until 6:00.

04:20:29 (City Council special called workshop adjourned)

04:28:46



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