TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, September 20, 2012
9:00 a.m. Workshops
This file represents an unedited version of realtime
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accuracy nor used as a verbatim transcript.
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09:06:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: City Council is called to order.
09:06:21 The chair yields to Mr. Frank Reddick.
09:06:24 >> Thank you, Mr. Chair.
09:06:25 It's a pleasure and honor to have with us this morning to
09:06:28 lead us in the invocation and pledge of allegiance reverend
09:06:33 Essie Simms.
09:06:35 Please stand.
09:06:36 >> Good morning.
09:06:37 Let us bow.
09:06:38 Dear gracious, heavenly Father, we come to bow our hearts
09:06:43 and minds before your presence.
09:06:44 We ask that you guide this council in all the decision
09:06:47 making that affect every residents of the city of Tampa,
09:06:52 Father, we thank you for the men and women that protect us
09:06:55 through the day and night.
09:06:57 We ask that you continue to watch over them as they patrol
09:07:00 this city.
09:07:00 Father, as this council begins to deliberate the issues that
09:07:05 affect the city we pray that you give them wisdom and
09:07:11 understanding and at the end of the day when it's all said
09:07:13 and done you give them the glory.
09:07:15 I ask this in Jesus name.
09:07:17 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]
09:07:39 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.
09:07:42 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.
09:07:43 >>HARRY COHEN: Here.
09:07:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
09:07:49 >> We go to ceremonial activities at nine.
09:07:52 Council member Frank Reddick will handle this.
09:08:00 >> Good morning, council.
09:08:21 I will get agent exercise rung up and down the thing here.
09:08:25 It's my pleasure to stand before you representing City
09:08:31 Council as we have our Officer of the Month for September
09:08:36 2012, Corporal Brett Owen.
09:08:40 Chief, will you talk about him?
09:08:43 Chief Jane Castor: Good morning.
09:08:44 Again it's my honor to stand before you with one of our
09:08:47 Tampa's finest.
09:08:48 As you know, it's difficult to narrow down when we have so
09:08:51 many wonderful officers and members of the Tampa Police
09:08:55 But I bring before you a ten-year veteran, Corporal Brett
09:08:59 He works up in our special operations group, special
09:09:02 incident management unit, and he does a great job every day.
09:09:08 He's being recognized for going above and beyond during the
09:09:12 A lot of the other locations and agencies assign people full
09:09:18 time to the RNC, but our officers have their day to day
09:09:21 crime fight and duties in addition to the RNC.
09:09:24 And Brett did an amazing job.
09:09:26 He's kind of a quiet guy.
09:09:27 But I tell you what, he told me that his office is
09:09:31 soundproofed, and that's when he went and screamed and
09:09:35 ranted and raved.
09:09:36 But I have never seen anything but a smile on the guy's face
09:09:39 and he did everything we asked him to do and even more.
09:09:42 He was the co-chair of the critical infrastructure
09:09:45 subcommittee, and any of those buildings or functions in the
09:09:49 city that we couldn't do without, the banking system,
09:09:52 electrical grid, the port.
09:09:53 There is literally hundreds of those locations that he was
09:09:57 responsible for going out and doing an assessment of that
09:10:01 location, and then putting all of that information into
09:10:04 digital sandbox, a software solution, that allowed us to
09:10:10 continue our planning and resources in a very efficient
09:10:15 And he literally assessed hundreds of locations all over
09:10:19 Hillsborough County and Pinellas County.
09:10:21 This even included every single hotel that was used during
09:10:24 the RNC.
09:10:25 In addition to that, he spent hours going from business to
09:10:29 business in the downtown area and meeting with the business
09:10:33 owners and letting them know exactly what to expect during
09:10:36 the RNC, and he also was able to get over 40 locations in
09:10:41 the downtown area that could be used for cooling stations
09:10:44 for the officers so they could get in out of the heat and
09:10:48 rotate through during their RNC duties.
09:10:50 And all of that was at no charge to the city.
09:10:56 He also identified block captains in every single block in
09:10:59 the downtown area that would be the points person for
09:11:01 communications during the RNC, and we would be able to give
09:11:04 them realtime information dealing with traffic issues, crowd
09:11:08 management, and then they in turn would be able to
09:11:11 communicate that to anyone in their building or on their
09:11:14 And that was very, very successful during the RNC and
09:11:17 keeping everyone in the downtown area informed in realtime
09:11:22 with very accurate information.
09:11:24 And if that wasn't enough, he also coordinated the
09:11:27 assignments of all of the National Guard that came down to
09:11:30 help us secure not only the venue but a lot of the
09:11:36 government buildings in the downtown area as well.
09:11:39 I'm not sure that the RNC would have been nearly as
09:11:43 successful as it was if it weren't for the actions of Brett
09:11:48 Owen and all of the incidents and issues that he took care
09:11:52 of prior to the RNC coming to town to make sure that it ran
09:11:57 very smoothly and without flaw.
09:12:01 So for those reasons and for everything that he does on a
09:12:03 daily basis, he's being recognized as Officer of the Month
09:12:07 for September 2012.
09:12:09 [ Applause ]
09:12:19 >>FRANK REDDICK: On behalf of Tampa City Council we would
09:12:21 like to present you this commendation for being chosen
09:12:23 Officer of the Month for the month of September 2012.
09:12:31 [ Applause ]
09:12:33 >> Chip Deblock of the Tampa PBA.
09:12:46 I would first like to tell you congratulations on a job
09:12:49 extraordinarily done, on behalf of our partnership with the
09:12:52 Tampa PBA, would like to present you with a gift card and
09:12:56 thank you for your service.
09:12:57 >> Joe Dirken representing Bright House networks.
09:13:08 On behalf of all of us at Bright House, we would like to
09:13:11 present you with one month complimentary service of all
09:13:14 Bright House service.
09:13:15 >> The Straz center.
09:13:27 It was a pleasure having you at our home all month and these
09:13:30 are complimentary tickets to our howl-o-ween event.
09:13:34 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepp's towing service on
09:13:43 behalf of Jim, Bob, Judy Stepp's and especially myself, a
09:13:51 small token of our appreciation for a job well done.
09:13:55 And I have a small story to Brett here.
09:13:58 Back in November of 2009, an individual attempted to rob me
09:14:07 in Drew Park and Brett handled the case, and I really
09:14:11 appreciate that.
09:14:12 Thank you.
09:14:14 [ Applause ]
09:14:20 >> Tom Harkinson of Bill Currie Ford.
09:14:23 On behalf of the curry family, we would like to give you
09:14:28 this watch.
09:14:29 >> Mario from island flowers in Ybor City.
09:14:36 We would like to present this dozen roses to you.
09:14:40 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Are you going to take these roses to
09:14:49 Bern's with you?
09:14:51 >> I'm taking them to my wife.
09:14:53 >> You better have a picture taken with her first at Bryn
09:14:57 It's now called prestige portraits and have your pictures
09:15:01 And I don't think you need anything else except that and
09:15:04 your dinner certificate to go enjoy yourself.
09:15:07 Let me say a couple things on the record hear for a second
09:15:13 with the Tampa Police Department and Tampa Fire Rescue.
09:15:16 I will get you both at the same time.
09:15:18 Liberty plaza was one of the major venues downtown that
09:15:21 relied heavily upon the security forces as well as Tampa
09:15:25 Fire Rescue with fire watch and with the EMS personnel.
09:15:30 We fed over a thousand of the folks at no cost to the city.
09:15:36 We provided air conditioned venues for you and restrooms and
09:15:40 places to clean up, sit down and relax, all the beverages
09:15:43 that you wanted, just to get in and out of the sun because
09:15:47 it was hot even in those khaki uniforms.
09:15:49 So we were very happy to do that.
09:15:52 We also provided a staging area for taxicabs. They provided
09:15:57 over 5,000 taxicab services out of that specific location.
09:16:01 And none of that could have happened without your
09:16:03 coordination and your assistance.
09:16:05 And I think it made Tampa a great place to do business and
09:16:08 to have a convention.
09:16:09 So thank you for what you have done for us.
09:16:12 And congratulations.
09:16:13 [ Applause ]
09:16:19 >> I want to say thank you, council, to all the citizens
09:16:22 that made this happen.
09:16:24 Without them we couldn't have done it.
09:16:26 I want to thank my family for their cooperation during all
09:16:29 of this, and look forward to the next event.
09:16:33 [ Applause ]
09:16:46 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick will now do the commendation
09:16:49 for the firefighter of the quarter.
09:16:50 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.
09:16:55 I would like to present the firefighter September 2012,
09:17:05 Captain Mark bogus for the quarter ending September 2012.
09:17:13 >> Tom Forward, fire chief and city manager, and as Chief
09:17:26 Castor communicated, at this point in our career, it gets
09:17:29 very difficult to identify that person because we have so
09:17:34 many of them, but it's absolutely an honor for me to
09:17:37 introduce you to our City of Tampa's fire department fireman
09:17:42 of the quarter, for the fourth quarter.
09:17:45 This individual has been a 26-year member of Tampa Fire
09:17:48 Rescue, hired in 1986, promoted to paramedic in 1989, to
09:17:56 lieutenant in 1994, and promoted to his current position as
09:18:01 fire Captain in 2006.
09:18:03 And some of the notable accomplishments that Captain bogus
09:18:07 has brought, not only to the City of Tampa but to our great
09:18:11 community, because he has absolutely been a tactician in
09:18:14 public safety, emergency response, fire, and our paramedic
09:18:19 emergency medical field.
09:18:21 He is also a current member of our police, fire and pension
09:18:24 board, and also he has been there since 2005.
09:18:28 Currently a member of my apparatus specifications committee,
09:18:34 and Councilwoman Montelione knows what we do when we look at
09:18:40 our apparatus, and Captain Bogus has been very, very
09:18:43 instrumental in helping us secure the best response units
09:18:47 that we have in the City of Tampa, and have standardized
09:18:50 that process, and he's also a deployment committee member
09:18:55 and has been for our Florida task force 3 program where the
09:18:59 City of Tampa Florida task force is the state's number one
09:19:04 task force response unit for USAR, urban search and rescue
09:19:10 activities, of major significant impact.
09:19:13 He also served as an interim public safety information
09:19:17 And you can look at that.
09:19:21 He does a good job in front of the camera as you will
09:19:28 probably hear today.
09:19:30 He's also, council, a great bugler as well and has performed
09:19:39 very admirable in a number of our honor guard activities
09:19:43 when, a tremendous bugler as well.
09:19:52 During that tenure he was there for eleven years, he was one
09:19:57 of our members in the City of Tampa that deployed to New
09:20:00 York City to ground zero for an entire week of search and
09:20:03 rescue, assisting New York's finest in trying to locate
09:20:08 members that were involved in the September 11th, 9/11
09:20:18 So along with responding to hurricane Charley, Andrew and
09:20:21 Katrina as well.
09:20:22 He was an all those deployments as well.
09:20:27 Medical response team member, our fire department assets
09:20:31 that we work with Tampa Police Department in the event of a
09:20:35 major situation, or things of that nature, where they expect
09:20:38 some things may go untoward with respect to investigation
09:20:42 and Mark has been a major member with that organization for
09:20:47 a number of years, not only looking out for the TPD officers
09:20:53 but those individuals that TPD had to bring in as well.
09:20:57 Also, our former training officer for many of our recruits
09:21:01 that come on the job, Mark has done that job over ten years
09:21:04 as well.
09:21:04 And a former materials technician where he responded to
09:21:09 multiple alarms dealing with Haz-Mat in our area, and one of
09:21:13 my Florida task force training officers.
09:21:16 One of the most significant issues that I really want to
09:21:18 share with you that Captain bogus was very instrumental in,
09:21:23 and it probably one of those things that really rips our
09:21:26 hearts out in public safety, whether it's fire or police, we
09:21:29 have a very accomplished number of years on the job,
09:21:35 Captain, who was stricken with melanoma about a year ago.
09:21:39 And during that situation, in that incident when he went in
09:21:42 for treatment and all of though things, Captain bogus, along
09:21:45 with members of fire station number 14, because of the
09:21:50 amount of time that Captain Billick was away from work, they
09:21:54 put together a workforce, so that Captain Billick's family
09:22:00 could still realize a paycheck, because they worked for him
09:22:04 in his place at no charge to him.
09:22:07 Captain Bogus coordinated all of that, even to the time when
09:22:11 the doctors recognized that Captain Billick's condition was
09:22:14 terminal, and he would not be coming back to work, Captain
09:22:18 Bogus met with the family, worked with the family day in and
09:22:21 day out, to support Captain Billick's last days, and working
09:22:27 with the family to ensure that this medical illness was
09:22:33 managed in a process that was absolutely outstanding even to
09:22:37 the point of where he went with the family, took Captain
09:22:42 Billick along with his wife and family, and went and secured
09:22:46 a plot for his final resting place while Captain Billick was
09:22:49 still alive, to ensure Captain Billick that in his latter
09:22:54 days, even after he was gone, his family would be well taken
09:22:57 care of.
09:22:58 Captain Bogus managed, coordinated and did all of that for
09:23:02 one of our finest.
09:23:04 That is one of the most notable reasons that we are
09:23:06 recognizing Captain Bogus, in addition to all the other
09:23:09 things that he does day in and day out and has done in 26
09:23:12 years with the City of Tampa.
09:23:13 That's the notable thing that we want to recognize him as
09:23:16 Tampa Fire Rescue firefighter of the quarter, Captain Mark
09:23:23 [ Applause ]
09:23:24 And as you know, a hero never travels without his encourage
09:23:35 so he has his wife Kim, daughter Kaitlyn, loving mother and
09:23:39 father Rita and John, and his crew members from engine 14-C.
09:23:45 Captain Mark Bogus.
09:23:47 [ Applause ]
09:23:54 >> Captain Bogus, on behalf of Tampa City Council, we would
09:23:58 like to present you this commendation for being chosen as
09:24:00 firefighter of the quarter for the period ending September
09:24:06 [ Applause ]
09:24:13 >> Joe Dirken with BrightHouse Networks.
09:24:21 For all of us at Bright House, a free month of complimentary
09:24:24 services of all Bright House services.
09:24:26 >> Straz Center, celebrating our 25th anniversary this
09:24:36 Thank you for keeping us safe for our entire city.
09:24:42 Thank you.
09:24:42 >> Congratulations to Captain Bogus.
09:24:48 On behalf of Jim, Judy, Todd Stepp, Stepp's towing service,
09:24:54 a small token of our appreciation.
09:24:57 And a gift card.
09:25:00 >> Congratulations.
09:25:08 Tom Harkinson with Bill Currie Ford.
09:25:12 On behalf of the Currie family, congratulations.
09:25:15 >> These roses really aren't for you.
09:25:24 They are for your significant other.
09:25:28 [ Applause ]
09:25:32 >>STEVE MICHELINI: You already heard about all the goodies.
09:25:36 So you know already he has to take you to Bern's, and you
09:25:42 have to arrange for the photographic package for you and
09:25:44 your family.
09:25:45 And let me thank you and the paramedics that man the liberty
09:25:48 plaza event.
09:25:50 We greatly appreciate what you did for everyone there.
09:25:52 And it made it for a safe event.
09:25:55 And make sure if there were any problems that you guys were
09:25:57 on the scene and took care of us.
09:25:59 We are happy to have been able to assist you there.
09:26:02 And I'm happy to present you with these certificates.
09:26:04 Thank you.
09:26:07 [ Applause ]
09:26:14 >> It's a very stumbling time.
09:26:17 Anticipate you get chosen by your peers to be honored, it's
09:26:20 a very special moment.
09:26:22 You know, an individual single firefighter can't accomplish
09:26:25 a whole lot, bring to the table a set of hands, pair of
09:26:30 legs, but it's the team concept that really is what protects
09:26:34 the city, provides the citizens with the service that we
09:26:36 provide, and that's the team right back here.
09:26:38 Those guys in the blue, those are the guys that work with me
09:26:41 every single day.
09:26:42 They are the ones that allow me to be able to do my job
09:26:45 efficiently and safely.
09:26:46 So I thank those guys.
09:26:48 I thank my lovely family here.
09:26:51 Over the years I have spent a lot of time away because of
09:26:54 the job. And I appreciate their support as well.
09:26:58 And thank you very much to the local businesses that support
09:27:02 the program.
09:27:04 And City Council, I sit on the pension board, so I know how
09:27:07 sometimes the decisions that you make aren't always the ones
09:27:11 people want to hear, but they are important decisions to
09:27:14 keep the city running, and I appreciate everything you do as
09:27:17 well. Thank you very much.
09:27:18 [ Applause ]
This file represents an unedited version of realtime
captioning which should neither be relied upon for complete
accuracy nor used as a verbatim transcript.
The original of this file was produced in all capital
letters and any variation thereto may be a result of third
party edits and software compatibility issues.
Any person who needs a verbatim transcript of the
proceedings may need to hire a court reporter.
09:26:21 [ Applause ]
09:28:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We will wait one second for the Frank
09:28:13 Reddick presentation day.
09:28:17 Mr. Reddick will now do the commendations for police chief
09:28:20 Jane Castor and fire chief Tom Forward, and Al Austin if
09:28:26 he's here.
09:28:26 >>FRANK REDDICK: Mr. Chair, I would like to make a motion
09:28:31 to present on September 27th, he will be unable to be
09:28:39 here today.
09:28:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: A motion by Mr. Reddick, second by Mr.
09:28:43 All in favor?
09:28:45 That's changed to September 27th at 9:00 in the morning.
09:28:48 >> Thank you.
09:28:52 We all know that the RNC is no longer here, and we are
09:28:56 thankful for that.
09:28:59 And we just wanted to recognize the chief and all the men
09:29:07 and women in uniform who worked very, very hard to make this
09:29:12 city -- to keep this city very safe.
09:29:15 And my understanding we only had two arrests.
09:29:21 And so there's a lot of people that did not go to jail.
09:29:25 Didn't tear down no buildings.
09:29:27 And we were able to keep the city secure.
09:29:33 Chief, we know you led the effort, but you had the city
09:29:39 working with you.
09:29:39 We couldn't put everybody here and recognize all.
09:29:42 So we want to just give you a token of appreciation on
09:29:47 behalf of all the men and women in uniform who made the RNC
09:29:53 very successful.
09:29:55 So we would like to present you this commendation in
09:29:57 recognition for your monumental efforts during the
09:30:03 Republican National Convention August 27-30, 2012.
09:30:07 Thank you and congratulations.
09:30:09 [ Applause ]
09:30:10 >> Chief Castor: Thank you, Councilman Reddick, and all the
09:30:20 council members, for assisting us in making this a success.
09:30:22 I think "monumental" is probably a good word to be used.
09:30:26 We couldn't have done this without our partners at the
09:30:29 Hillsborough County sheriff's office.
09:30:32 That was one of the reasons I knew we would be successful
09:30:35 from the beginning is that close working relationship we
09:30:38 have with law enforcement in the Tampa Bay area.
09:30:40 And then as I said, you know your people, and I know the
09:30:44 people at the Hillsborough County sheriff's office, to bring
09:30:47 3500 officers into one location and have absolutely no
09:30:52 complaints whatsoever, and in fact during those four days
09:30:55 all I heard were very, very positive accolades and
09:31:00 compliments on the level of professionalism, courteousness
09:31:03 and helpfulness of all of the officers.
09:31:05 It speaks volumes of law enforcement in the State of
09:31:08 And I could not be any prouder of all of the actions of law
09:31:14 enforcement in making this a successful event.
09:31:19 When it took so many people also from the city, obviously,
09:31:22 the leadership of the mayor, council's assistance, and the
09:31:27 seemingly hundreds of purchase orders and contracts we
09:31:32 brought before you, the chief of staff Corrada, the city
09:31:39 attorney's office, and there were a number of people from
09:31:41 the city attorney's office who assisted us in this as well,
09:31:46 and Tonja Brickhouse from the solid waste, and there were
09:31:50 just so many city departments obviously working hand in hand
09:31:54 with my friend Tom Forward from the fire department.
09:31:56 But, again, as was stated by Councilman Reddick, this was a
09:32:01 team effort.
09:32:02 I just happened to be the one standing here accepting the
09:32:05 plaque, but in no way, shape or form am I the one who did
09:32:10 the work.
09:32:10 It was the outstanding day-to-day activities of all the men
09:32:14 and women in uniform that made this a success, and really
09:32:16 the model for the nation to follow.
09:32:19 So I thank you for the recognition.
09:32:21 And I accept it on behalf of all the men and women in
09:32:24 uniform that made this event a success.
09:32:26 Thank you.
09:32:28 [ Applause ]
09:32:35 >>MARY MULHERN: I just can't say enough about what a
09:32:38 fantastic job TPD did during the convention.
09:32:43 And I, as a council person, want to thank legal and Chief
09:32:48 Castor and Marc Hamlin and John Bennett for helping all of
09:32:56 us, me and the public, understand what we were -- what the
09:33:02 plans were, and for just incredibly tolerant and grateful.
09:33:19 I heard downtown, Ybor, how great the police were.
09:33:23 I heard from many, many protestors who just can't say enough
09:33:27 about the Tampa Police Department.
09:33:30 I have heard from the ACLU, who I know you were working with
09:33:36 from the beginning and who were your watchdogs for these
09:33:41 kinds of events, and they had nothing but good things to
09:33:44 So I'm really proud to work for a city that has such great,
09:33:50 great law enforcement, such great leadership, and it was
09:33:55 really, really impressive.
09:34:04 [ Applause ]
09:34:05 >>FRANK REDDICK: Chief Forward, I want to also take this
09:34:11 opportunity to present a token of appreciation for this
09:34:15 commendation, and prepared for that, the staff and all those
09:34:28 who work under your leadership, and as stated by the chief,
09:34:46 we could not recognize all of them, but you made everyone
09:34:52 feel comfortable while they were here and not to have
09:34:55 protestors complain about how things went.
09:34:57 We should be thankful for that, and I echo those comments
09:35:02 that Councilwoman Mulhern just made.
09:35:05 So on behalf of Tampa City Council we would be like to
09:35:14 present you this commendation for outstanding job and
09:35:16 leadership provided to the national convention, August
09:35:19 27-30, 2012.
09:35:21 Thank you.
09:35:23 [ Applause ]
09:35:32 >> And I as the City of Tampa fire chief, the men and women
09:35:36 and all of our collaboration allow us to have this very
09:35:39 healthy forum.
09:35:41 And it could not have been done had we not had the
09:35:46 relationship that we already had.
09:35:47 You heard me say a number of times that the City of Tampa is
09:35:50 so well served, not only the tremendous workers that we have
09:35:56 in this government, but also our partnership and our
09:35:59 collaboration with everybody in the way we work so
09:36:03 seamlessly together in our law enforcement branch and our
09:36:08 public partners.
09:36:09 This was a major law enforcement event.
09:36:13 So many things went on behind the scenes than we were
09:36:18 comprised of from our law enforcement partners, Chief Castor
09:36:21 and her staff, from Hillsborough County sheriff's office,
09:36:23 all of the general partners, as well as our other state and
09:36:27 local organizations as well.
09:36:37 And all those concerns we heard from council, we took them
09:36:41 up from Mayor Buckhorn and our city legal, Mr. Shimberg,
09:36:46 with the concerns that we were going to be safe with these
09:36:49 large number of folks, and that allowed us to build a
09:36:53 program and build a platform that we had the opportunity to
09:36:55 realize as Chief Castor said is now a model for the rest of
09:36:59 the nation when they are going to handle significant
09:37:02 specialty events like this, a large scale event.
09:37:05 Again on behalf of the men and women of Tampa Fire Rescue,
09:37:08 the office of emergency management, the entire City of Tampa
09:37:11 staff, I couldn't be more humbled than to accept this
09:37:14 Thank you very much.
09:37:15 [ Applause ]
09:37:29 >>MARY MULHERN: I just you want to thank Tampa Fire Rescue,
09:37:36 and I walked in a little late.
09:37:40 I think you were probably already mentioning Chief Castor
09:37:46 for keeping all the officers healthy during the heat and
09:37:48 everything, because I know they were the one so thank you
09:37:55 very much.
09:38:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Item number 4 is a present aches of a
09:38:07 resolution that was originally made by Mr. Reddick and Mr.
09:38:11 Cohen, the condolences of Perry C. Harvey.
09:38:16 The council member did an outstanding job in the community
09:38:19 and was a council member from 1983 to 1995.
09:38:22 Mr. Shelby.
09:38:23 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Good morning.
09:38:25 I prepared the resolution in accordance with your motion.
09:38:28 And ask for your approval.
09:38:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick, would you make a motion to
09:38:34 pass the resolution?
09:38:36 >>FRANK REDDICK: I move the resolution.
09:38:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Seconded by Mr. Cohen on a close vote
09:38:41 with Mr. Suarez.
09:38:43 All in favor of the motion?
09:38:44 Opposed nay?
09:38:45 The ayes have it unanimously.
09:38:49 We are going to the workshop.
09:38:51 These workshops allow public comment after we discuss the
09:38:55 workshop itself.
09:38:56 There are various workshops.
09:38:58 The public approximately have three minutes for each
09:39:01 presentation of each individual to discuss their opinion on
09:39:03 the workshop.
09:39:04 So let's make a motion to open the workshops.
09:39:08 >>MIKE SUAREZ: So moved.
09:39:12 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mr. Suarez, seconded by Mr.
09:39:15 All in favor?
09:39:17 The ayes have it unanimously.
09:39:23 The first part is E-2012-48.
09:39:32 The Internet sweepstakes cafes.
09:39:36 >>JULIA MANDELL: City legal department.
09:39:45 I am going to pass out a bullet point that I prepared so
09:39:52 City Council can see what I am talking about.
09:40:08 These are options as relates to Internet cafes and Internet
09:40:15 sweepstakes gaming devices that have been coming into
09:40:18 different locations within the City of Tampa.
09:40:21 What I have given to you are three potential options as it
09:40:28 relates to be Internet cafes.
09:40:30 But prior to getting into that, so everyone is clear on what
09:40:35 we are talking about, what we are talking about are
09:40:37 establishments that bring in for the public Internet
09:40:43 devices, gaming devices, which are used by sweepstakes
09:40:49 machines like the kind you get from McDonald, except for
09:40:53 going to McDonald's and doing a scratchoff, what you do is
09:40:56 you go in and get points on these machines, and you are able
09:40:59 to redeem them, usually for cash, sometimes for other items.
09:41:04 There's been a lot of questions that have come up legally as
09:41:07 to whether or not that would be considered gambling under
09:41:09 Florida statutes.
09:41:10 And there have been a few jurisdictions that attempted to
09:41:14 look at this in terms of gambling and being an illegal
09:41:17 gambling operation, but none of those have really been
09:41:19 successful, because the machines are able to turn into games
09:41:23 of chance rather than games of skill.
09:41:30 So they are technically at this point legal.
09:41:33 There have been attempts at the Florida legislature to
09:41:36 regulate the Internet gaming devices through statewide
09:41:39 statutes but there was in a action taken this last
09:41:42 legislative action and it's certainly that may come up this
09:41:44 legislative session.
09:41:45 As a result of that, a lot of jurisdictions throughout the
09:41:48 State of Florida have decided to take some kind of
09:41:52 regulatory action as it relates to these types of machines
09:41:56 and these types of business operations.
09:41:59 And that's when we get into your different options.
09:42:03 As it stands today, and if there's questions about our
09:42:05 zoning code, Ms. Coyle is here to answer the questions, but
09:42:10 as it stands today, the City of Tampa treats these types of
09:42:13 devices and the businesses that operate these types of
09:42:15 devices as indoor commercial recreation facilities under our
09:42:20 zoning code, and those types of facilities are allowed
09:42:25 within the City of Tampa in certain zoning classifications,
09:42:29 specifically permitted uses in the OP, OP-1, CG, and IGA,
09:42:35 meaning if you want to open an Internet cafe -- and there is
09:42:38 one I think currently located downtown -- and you meet all
09:42:42 of our other codes, and you want -- and you are within one
09:42:45 of these zoning classifications, you have the right to go
09:42:47 ahead and open that up as it stands today.
09:42:50 So you meet code requirements, you can have this type of
09:42:58 And certainly that is an option for us.
09:42:59 We could take noon action and just leave it as the is,
09:43:03 continue to treat these as indoor commercial recreation
09:43:05 facilities and allow that type of operation to open up in
09:43:10 the zoning classifications currently allowed, and certainly
09:43:17 if that was an allowable use under a preponderance of the
09:43:19 evidence classification.
09:43:21 Option 2 is a full ban.
09:43:24 Many jurisdictions through the state and most specifically
09:43:27 Hillsborough County have continued full bans on Internet
09:43:29 gaming devices within their jurisdiction.
09:43:33 They are not allowed to be open and operated for the use of
09:43:36 the public.
09:43:38 I do want to note, though, that many of these jurisdictions
09:43:42 are currently in the process of being sued, and there's
09:43:45 active litigation specifically against Seminole County and
09:43:49 the city of Longwood, and Hillsborough County for their full
09:43:53 ban which they have enacted.
09:43:56 And Hillsborough County discussed their litigation at their
09:43:59 county commission meeting yesterday.
09:44:02 From what I could garner from the discussion, there was a
09:44:05 request on behalf of the judge who was handling the
09:44:10 Hillsborough County case for Hillsborough County to a bait
09:44:14 their case to wait to see how the Seminole County and the
09:44:20 city of Longwood case resolved themselves.
09:44:22 The county attorney's office took the position that the
09:44:24 county regulation in their ban is different than Seminole
09:44:28 County's so they have opted not to a bait their litigation
09:44:33 and they intend to move forward.
09:44:34 One of the things that they do have within Hillsborough
09:44:36 County regulation is a criminal violation as well as code
09:44:41 enforcement violation.
09:44:42 They are going to seek to change their code to only allow it
09:44:45 to be a civil code enforcement violation in order to avoid
09:44:48 any potential liability should their regulation be thrown
09:44:52 So at this point, yes, that is an option for the city.
09:44:54 We could go ahead and either opt into Hillsborough County --
09:44:59 >>HARRY COHEN: Question.
09:45:01 In the absence of regulation, by Tampa, why doesn't the
09:45:09 county's prohibition apply to us automatically?
09:45:12 >>JULIA MANDELL: And that's a very good question.
09:45:15 That was my first question reviewing this issue.
09:45:18 The way the Hillsborough County ordinance is drafted it is
09:45:20 only applicable in unincorporated Hillsborough County so it
09:45:23 is not applicable within the municipalities.
09:45:25 So we are free to leave our regulations as they are today,
09:45:30 not put anything specific within our regulation, and
09:45:32 continue to be allow the Internet cafes as indoor
09:45:41 recreational activities.
09:45:42 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Picking backing on that, why is Longwood,
09:45:46 which is in Seminole County, have two separate ordinances
09:45:50 that say exactly the same thing?
09:45:52 >> I can't exactly explain where their charter is and why
09:45:55 they might be able to have different regulations that
09:46:00 I mean, there's the question of whether something is a
09:46:02 countywide regulation involving the municipalities, and
09:46:07 specifically within the charter.
09:46:08 I can look at that issue but I haven't gone back and
09:46:11 specifically figured out why they have two separate
09:46:13 lawsuits, or two separate regulations, whatever their
09:46:17 charter would allow them to be able to do.
09:46:19 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
09:46:22 Hearing that there is pending litigation in these other
09:46:26 counties, would it be wise for us to wait the outcome of
09:46:31 these legal challenges prior to moving forward and we end up
09:46:36 being sued as well?
09:46:39 >>JULIA MANDELL: In fact, I would agree with that
09:46:42 My recommendation would be if City Council, after we go
09:46:46 through this workshop process, makes a decision they would
09:46:48 prefer to ban outright these types of uses, I would
09:46:52 recommend that we go ahead and wait to see how the
09:46:55 Hillsborough County -- specifically the Hillsborough County
09:46:57 litigation falls out because we are within the same judicial
09:47:04 But anything that would happen with Seminole County case
09:47:07 would also have an impact on what we may or may not be
09:47:09 allowed to do.
09:47:10 So I would absolutely make that recommendation.
09:47:13 But I can't tell you there is case law out there that says
09:47:18 we cannot bon it.
09:47:19 I just think it would probably be something we wouldn't want
09:47:22 to undertake until we knew the results of this litigation.
09:47:24 >> And my whole point, why move forward when we are looking
09:47:30 at having the possibility of a lawsuit, and be faced with a
09:47:35 challenge, to incur costs for the legal department or
09:47:40 someone else to defend, file a lawsuit, and we have to
09:47:47 It just seems to me it's in the best interest to wait until
09:47:51 we get information from these other counties, particularly
09:47:54 Hillsborough County.
09:47:55 >>JULIA MANDELL: I think that's why all of our options,
09:48:01 that I place in front of you, the option that council would
09:48:03 like to pursue, then I would absolutely agree that are we
09:48:05 should not move forward with any specific ban right now.
09:48:08 But you certainly could take the position that you want to
09:48:11 think about moving forward and ask the legal department to
09:48:14 continue to monitor that litigation.
09:48:15 But I do have a third option on here that we can talk about
09:48:19 as well, which is we could regulate it.
09:48:22 And that's something the City Council needs to think about.
09:48:31 >>YVONNE CAPIN: What I believe Councilman Reddick is
09:48:33 referring to, if we ban it, the litigation that could come
09:48:36 from that.
09:48:37 What I also want to ask you, if we do nothing, and we wait,
09:48:43 then we leave it where it's at, which means they can open
09:48:54 these Internet cafes without our regulation.
09:48:58 >>JULIA MANDELL: That's correct.
09:48:59 If you don't do anything, what they are considered today is
09:49:03 indoor commercial recreation facilities, a certain zoning
09:49:07 classification, and if they want to open up and they are an
09:49:12 Internet cafe and are not operating an illegal gambling
09:49:16 operation under Florida statutes, then they would have the
09:49:18 right to open up in those zoning classifications as long as
09:49:21 they meet other code requirements.
09:49:22 >> That was my purpose when I brought this forward was again
09:49:27 to look at the possible regulation of this as opposed to
09:49:33 leaving it open and actually have a say in how this is run
09:49:40 in our city, and maybe set the standards for the state is
09:49:45 what I was hoping they would do.
09:49:47 If we decide to wait, which is also an option, and I think
09:49:53 could be a very logical option, we run the risk of allowing
09:49:58 them to proliferate in our city.
09:50:02 >> If City Council felt they wanted some regulation, we do
09:50:28 it in your business regulation code similar to the
09:50:38 operational perspective of, you know, what they can do,
09:50:42 hours of operation, those kinds of things.
09:50:44 And if you look at option 3, what I have done, I --
09:50:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Just one second.
09:50:49 I have Ms. Montelione and Mr. Cohen.
09:50:51 >>LISA MONTELIONE: If I could have a clarification between
09:50:57 the Internet cafes and bingo halls.
09:51:00 I mean, Internet cafes is bringing the concept into the
09:51:04 21st century?
09:51:07 >>JULIA MANDELL: I think under Florida statute a bingo type
09:51:10 of game is treated somewhat differently than the types of
09:51:12 games which are provided for these Internet cafes.
09:51:17 Typically these Internet cafes, from what I can tell -- and
09:51:23 I actually did walk into one, I admit it -- it was legal,
09:51:27 though -- you can go in there and just use the Internet.
09:51:32 It's a place you can go and use the Internet.
09:51:34 But on the machines, they are usually lined up and you drink
09:51:36 coffee and go play solitary or e-mail your buddy.
09:51:41 >> I went to one as well, although not in Hillsborough
09:51:44 >>JULIA MANDELL: The other thing you can do on those
09:51:48 conditions is play a sweepstakes game similar to what you
09:51:51 would get, getting the cardboard piece, you actually do it
09:51:56 on the computer.
09:52:03 That is different in that it is regulated by the state and
09:52:06 also there can be local regulations as well which is
09:52:09 different than, say, gambling, and the definition of
09:52:12 gambling, and where gambling can be allowed, to say that
09:52:17 Seminole, hard rock casino, and under state and federal law,
09:52:23 there's an allowability to the play -- dog track is allowed
09:52:32 under state law, and certain ordinances.
09:52:35 So those are different types of games.
09:52:36 This particular type of game under Florida isn't even
09:52:40 regulated under Florida law.
09:52:41 It's actually separate.
09:52:42 >> But bingo is?
09:52:44 >> But bingo is.
09:52:46 And I haven't gone to specifically look what regulations
09:52:50 apply to bingo halls.
09:52:55 It has to be nonprofit in certain locational criteria but
09:52:58 they are allowed under state law.
09:53:00 This is different in that the state does not regulate this.
09:53:03 If it is done properly, meaning it isn't done in a manner
09:53:07 not inconsistent with state law, not done as a gambling game
09:53:10 of chance -- I'm sorry, game of skill versus a game of
09:53:14 chance, which is what a sweepstakes is, then they are
09:53:16 allowed to operate at this time unless the local government
09:53:20 says you cannot operate it.
09:53:22 So it's just one of the things that you can do on a computer
09:53:26 as you walk into an Internet cafe, and that would really be
09:53:31 what would you be regulating is that activity which is why I
09:53:35 am recommending you do it more as a business regulation
09:53:38 versus a zoning regulation.
09:53:39 >> Do we know if there's any pending legislation for the
09:53:41 next session?
09:53:47 >> Somebody is going to bring the issue back up, but I am
09:53:49 not sure exactly what it is they are going to promulgate
09:53:53 last year to regulate it.
09:53:55 I think there were some attempts to ban it but I think it's
09:53:58 mostly an attempt to regulate it at the state level.
09:54:02 >> So there would be an additional revenue source for the
09:54:05 >> Can we put that on the list to monitor, not just how the
09:54:10 pending litigation goes with Hillsborough County and others,
09:54:12 but to monitor the legislation as it moves through session?
09:54:17 >> Absolutely.
09:54:18 And the legal department does monitor all the different
09:54:21 types of legislation which coming forward as well --
09:54:29 >> The question might be for Ms. Cole.
09:54:31 I don't know if she knows off the back of my head, but there
09:54:34 are eight currently operating Internet cafes.
09:54:38 A few of them not far from my house.
09:54:41 On Busch Boulevard.
09:54:44 There are eight.
09:54:45 Someone mentioned proliferation of these establishments.
09:54:49 It doesn't say when these establishments opened.
09:54:54 So are we seeing a trend with more of them opening?
09:54:57 Or have these been open and operating for quite a long
09:55:02 period of time?
09:55:04 I have no idea.
09:55:05 I know the one that is very close to my home has been there
09:55:08 quite awhile.
09:55:08 I mean, it's been a number of years.
09:55:15 Maybe two or so.
09:55:16 I'm not really sure.
09:55:17 I just want to know, is this a trend that we are seeing more
09:55:20 of them open?
09:55:23 Or it's been a pretty stable number?
09:55:26 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Planning and development.
09:55:28 I honestly don't know.
09:55:29 I only knew of two that have come and asked a question about
09:55:32 the use and where they could go.
09:55:34 It's not anything we track in particular because it's not a
09:55:37 special permit.
09:55:38 It just allowed in the district and they follow the parking
09:55:40 requirements, building permits and so on.
09:55:45 Just like Ms. Cole said, we have Internet cafes around the
09:55:48 city that are just Internet cafes.
09:55:50 I don't know if the ones that --
09:55:53 >> I'm sorry, I'm having trouble paying attention to what
09:55:56 you are saying because everybody is talking.
09:55:57 >> It's hard to say if the Internet cafes that already
09:56:01 existed now have added the sweepstakes software.
09:56:06 That's not anything that we would track at this point.
09:56:08 Because we already have Internet cafes.
09:56:10 It's just you could go in and like she said have a cup of
09:56:14 >> Something we could monitor with Jake Slater?
09:56:18 >> The only way to really monitor it is if for some reason
09:56:22 they come in for some type of --
09:56:24 >> Counseling?
09:56:25 >> Permit or something telling us they are an Internet cafe
09:56:29 right now.
09:56:29 They just go in as a commercial facility.
09:56:35 >> That presents a challenge.
09:56:36 Thank you very much.
09:56:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have Mr. Cohen and Mr. Suarez and Ms.
09:56:44 >>HARRY COHEN: The question, what's your best guess as to
09:56:48 how long you think it will take for that litigation to
09:56:49 resolve itself?
09:56:50 >> I know that the Seminole County case is much further
09:56:55 along than the Hillsborough County case.
09:57:06 Whenever you walk into a courtroom you never know how long a
09:57:08 case will take, but to make sure they have the right to
09:57:13 >> So it may take a little while to resolve itself, in which
09:57:16 case looking at some regulation might make sense.
09:57:20 You mentioned that the state could look to it as a revenue
09:57:27 Do you have any information on exactly what types of
09:57:31 proposals have been put out there in the legislature in
09:57:39 taxing it?
09:57:40 >> I saw what it was and talked about, taxing it, but it
09:57:44 didn't really go that far because I sense it never really
09:57:48 got a lot of leg, had a couple thoughts floated back and
09:57:54 forth, discussion about it, but don't think it ever made it
09:57:56 out of committee.
09:57:57 I just pulled the drafts of all the different types of
09:57:59 regulations that they were promulgating and looked at it.
09:58:03 I think it might be good to see what starts coming forward
09:58:06 in this legislative session because now you do have this
09:58:09 active litigation that you didn't have last year.
09:58:11 There may be a larger political move up at the state to have
09:58:15 this issue be pushed forward, but it's one of those things
09:58:19 that sometimes you don't really know until you get much
09:58:21 further in.
09:58:22 >> And last question, is there any ability for the
09:58:25 legislature to give local governments the ability to tax it
09:58:30 or would we have the ability ourselves to tax it?
09:58:32 >> You do not have the ability to tax it yourselves under
09:58:37 state law and under the charter.
09:58:38 You can only charge fees with those fees pock associated
09:58:47 with the costs of permits and the costs of inspection and
09:58:50 directly associated with how we are going to regulate these
09:58:55 Anything more than that would be considered a tax and the
09:58:58 only way to tax is to go through a referendum process.
09:59:02 So you have to be cognizant and careful of that.
09:59:04 >> Mr. Suarez and Ms. Capin.
09:59:07 >>MIKE SUAREZ: In terms of the city of Jacksonville's
09:59:12 current regulation, have they been to court over these
09:59:17 >> Not that I could tell.
09:59:18 Not that anybody was able to tell me and not that I could
09:59:21 And the reason I chose their regulations, I thought it most
09:59:24 closely matched the way we regulate within the city, and the
09:59:28 regulations were very well drafted and had some good parts
09:59:31 of them.
09:59:32 I just bullet pointed.
09:59:33 And they are fairly long.
09:59:40 There's a lot of stuff in there.
09:59:41 But I wanted to give you highlights.
09:59:43 >> In terms of the difference between business regulation
09:59:47 and our regulatory power versus our land use and zoning
09:59:50 power, those Internet cafes that are currently operating
09:59:54 would still be able to operate under our current land use,
09:59:58 and then have to be regulated according to a new regulation
10:00:01 if we so desire?
10:00:05 >>JULIA MANDELL: You would have the opportunity to not
10:00:06 regulate this from the land use part of it, which the
10:00:10 operations would be -- you would have the right to regulate
10:00:14 the operation which --
10:00:16 >> My point is if we went -- my point is that if we went
10:00:19 from a land use process, they could still continue to
10:00:22 operate, because the land use procedure was not in place at
10:00:26 the time.
10:00:28 So if we wanted to, let's say, if we did a total ban, would
10:00:34 that mean that those operating at that time would have to
10:00:38 operate because --
10:00:45 >> If but did some kind of total ban, I would recommend that
10:00:50 you in essence grandfather in those businesses, due to some
10:00:55 liability there.
10:00:55 >> And my point is it's already zoned in to where they are
10:01:00 at as Internet cafes would not have a legal recourse to say,
10:01:05 wait, you can't do that because we have already been
10:01:07 >> There's some argument there, but I wouldn't recommend
10:01:10 that we go down that path.
10:01:12 And I think the risks would outweigh what the benefit would
10:01:15 be given that we don't even have -- we have eight, I guess,
10:01:19 so far.
10:01:20 I think regulating going forward, certainly we can go and
10:01:26 look at it and create a land use regulation for it.
10:01:30 I just think you are going to end up in a scenario where you
10:01:33 are really trying to use your land use regulations to
10:01:37 regulate the operation of a business.
10:01:40 And you might -- your regulate might end up being more Brad
10:01:44 than intended.
10:01:45 >> That's exactly my point, which is if we regulate them we
10:01:49 are going to be able to bring in all those that are
10:01:52 currently operating and any future we may think about the
10:01:56 City of Tampa may take a second look as to whether or not
10:01:59 they are going to come into the City of Tampa because of
10:02:01 these types of regulations.
10:02:02 >> That is correct.
10:02:04 >> Okay.
10:02:04 >> And I want to caveat that.
10:02:06 Yes, I feel that the businesses that are existing, there is
10:02:12 legal authority there for us to regulate the operation of
10:02:15 these machines.
10:02:17 We may want to think about some form of either
10:02:21 grandfathering or time frames relating to those businesses
10:02:23 so that we are not creating some potential issues for us.
10:02:28 >> Wouldn't be regulating the use of the machines, just
10:02:35 regulating the use of the particular business as opposed
10:02:38 to --
10:02:42 >>JULIA MANDELL: That's a better way of saying it.
10:02:45 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I wanted to be sure I heard you the first
10:02:47 So the reason I was asking, the city of Jacksonville,
10:02:49 obviously they are putting a lot in there and put in
10:02:55 everything they have in terms of regulation.
10:02:57 How quickly or how easily would it be to draft something
10:03:00 similar to what city of Jacksonville has, and come before us
10:03:03 and be able to --
10:03:06 >> If City Council gives me direction we could bring
10:03:08 something forward in 30 days, get that on first reading.
10:03:11 That is something certainly that can be done.
10:03:13 It would be valuable for me to have clear direction from you
10:03:16 all, or at least as clear direction as you can give me, so
10:03:20 that way I'm putting something in a regulation that makes
10:03:22 sense and is in the direction that City Council wants to go
10:03:26 so we are not spending a lot of time going through almost
10:03:29 like another workshop on it.
10:03:31 Certainly we can.
10:03:32 And that's another option you could have and come back at a
10:03:34 workshop in 30 days with the regulation, and then you could
10:03:37 go ahead and discuss that further there, and then put it on
10:03:42 first reading.
10:03:42 I will leave that up to City Council.
10:03:44 But I think as you decide what kind of regulation you want
10:03:50 to have, that's certainly something that I can easily put
10:03:52 into business regulation.
10:03:53 Weep already have models for it, pain management is the
10:03:58 other business regulation we have done.
10:04:00 It's not something as long as I understand what City Council
10:04:02 would like to see in those regulations.
10:04:05 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you very much.
10:04:10 >>YVONNE CAPIN: In reference to -- that was referred to, the
10:04:16 reason before I brought it up, and the reason there's only
10:04:19 eight is because we have a moratorium up till this month.
10:04:22 >>JULIA MANDELL: No, we did not do moratorium.
10:04:29 I wanted better direction from council.
10:04:32 I would be drafting a moratoria ordinance.
10:04:34 And when you draft the ordinances in order to avoid any kind
10:04:36 of liability, you have to have a plan in place, and how long
10:04:41 it is going to be.
10:04:41 So I ask to have discussion and then afterwards today, as
10:04:45 you make your decisions as to whether or not you want to
10:04:48 move forward.
10:04:49 >> That's right.
10:04:49 You came back.
10:04:50 And in July, because of that.
10:04:52 I remember now.
10:04:54 So maybe we were under the impression that's what it was,
10:04:59 because we did talk about it.
10:05:02 When we talk about, it's been four sessions that this has
10:05:08 been brought up, and they still hadn't done anything.
10:05:12 And when they talk about taxing, I would like to know what
10:05:20 part of that tax Tampa receives, if any, if we can, if
10:05:28 that's where they are heading.
10:05:30 And I understand that was one of my -- when I brought it up,
10:05:35 I was hoping that there would be some revenue source to the
10:05:40 city, and then quickly found out that it was processing and
10:05:44 permits, and without the regulation in place we are just
10:05:55 opening the doors to allow it to build as it will.
10:05:59 And I think that would be the best avenue, to look at these
10:06:03 regulations that you have brought forth.
10:06:07 Plus I have some other points that I would like to look at
10:06:10 with that.
10:06:10 And I am not sure that this is the appropriate time.
10:06:24 Along with these regulations I would like to look at minimum
10:06:27 size of room, limit the numbers to population, number of
10:06:37 permits related to the population, so many per thousand or
10:06:40 so many per ten thousand or so many per 100,000.
10:06:43 It could be one per 100,000.
10:06:45 That's something to look at.
10:06:48 And a minimum number of Internet gaming devices.
10:06:52 In other words, I don't want to see these in little coffee
10:06:58 shop and they set up two machines in the back room.
10:07:00 I would like to see this to where it is -- someone that
10:07:05 comes in to open this has the deep pocket in order to keep
10:07:11 it running and keep it -- I would like to see a minimum of
10:07:15 at least 25 machines, if we are going to do that, because
10:07:20 they have the issue in south Florida, and one of those
10:07:24 municipalities, where it isn't just -- they couldn't control
10:07:30 It would make it easier for our code enforcement people to
10:07:34 go in and check 25 machines in one location than go to ten
10:07:40 places and check 25 machines.
10:07:44 And that's what I'm looking at.
10:07:47 Limit the signage, and of course limitation of alcohol.
10:07:52 And maybe only from now on only in hotels as one of the
10:08:02 So along with what you have here.
10:08:09 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Mulhern, care to speak on anything?
10:08:11 Okay, thank you very much.
10:08:12 Let me just say this.
10:08:14 I have been quietly listening in.
10:08:15 I don't know too much about gambling.
10:08:18 Or maybe I do.
10:08:23 Has anybody contacted the department of business and
10:08:26 professional regulation?
10:08:30 >>JULIA MANDELL: No, sir, I have not done that.
10:08:32 >> Well, this falls under their jurisdiction or should
10:08:36 >>JULIA MANDELL: I think that's the point, that the state
10:08:38 hasn't regulated it at this point.
10:08:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand that.
10:08:42 And what supersedes what?
10:08:43 Do we supersede the state or the state supersedes us?
10:08:47 >>JULIA MANDELL: If the state has regulations on the books
10:08:49 which preempt the local regulations, the state goes first.
10:08:53 If they have nothing on the books on this issue then we have
10:08:56 the right to regulate it and so we would continue to have
10:09:01 the right to regulate.
10:09:02 That's at the local level.
10:09:03 >> The state for many years had in place different dates for
10:09:09 these establishments, not this type of cafe, but for jai
10:09:14 alai, horse racing, dog tracks, and they would give you
10:09:18 certain dates of the year that you could operate your
10:09:20 business solely.
10:09:21 Things change.
10:09:21 And then they went to a different aspects of bringing in the
10:09:26 card from other racetracks so you could open year round
10:09:29 without live racing.
10:09:31 And then they continued it now where one dog track closes
10:09:34 and everything is one at one dog track and I guess they
10:09:36 revenue share.
10:09:37 I don't know much about that operation.
10:09:39 Then they also had a limit on especially in horse racing
10:09:43 where you could have no new operation could be opened within
10:09:48 100 miles of another one.
10:09:49 I don't know if that's still in place or not.
10:09:52 I don't know of any that have changed, where another one has
10:09:56 opened within a hundred miles of one that has existed in the
10:09:59 last 40 years.
10:10:00 There was three in Miami, and all three had different
10:10:03 calendars of the year where they participated.
10:10:05 One has since closed.
10:10:07 One has reopened, 15, 20 years later with quarterhorse
10:10:13 racing, which is different than thoroughbred racing in some
10:10:17 When those things happen, we are talking about limiting --
10:10:23 if you are looking at the ordinance, about 20.
10:10:25 That's what they have in the city.
10:10:27 Is there any forms of distance between one and another?
10:10:32 Are you going to have four in a corner?
10:10:36 I'm just asking.
10:10:37 >>JULIA MANDELL: The city doesn't have distance separations
10:10:41 >> Do or do not?
10:10:42 >> They do not have distance regulations.
10:10:44 That would be more of a land use regulation than business
10:10:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Well, the state has no land use
10:10:50 regulation in horse racing.
10:10:51 I don't believe they do.
10:10:52 I think they have areas that they say within 100 miles,
10:10:56 period, of one.
10:10:57 Or used to have.
10:10:58 I don't know if that's still in existence.
10:11:01 What I'm saying is, you need to tell me that we are looking
10:11:04 at now regulating or looking at, I should say, Internet, you
10:11:09 call it gaming, I call it gambling.
10:11:13 Where you don't know what the odds are.
10:11:15 You don't -- I have never been in one.
10:11:17 I'm not saying that's good or bad.
10:11:19 But you don't put in money.
10:11:21 I don't know how they are going.
10:11:24 And at the end of the day you either win a lollipop or new
10:11:29 And based on points -- I don't know.
10:11:31 I have never been in one.
10:11:32 So and we have trained professionals in the city that's
10:11:37 going to go out.
10:11:38 I don't know any code enforcement officer.
10:11:41 I'm just speaking for myself.
10:11:43 Not against their job or wash they do.
10:11:45 Because these regulations, I've seen some of them.
10:11:49 And what these individuals that work for this department
10:11:52 does, it changes on a daily basis based on the laws of the
10:11:57 And they are cumbersome, they are long, they are hard.
10:12:00 They went from one thing to Polka, it went from playing
10:12:04 cards to simulcasting, and everything is so different, and
10:12:08 so many laws that they have.
10:12:10 So I don't know exactly where I fit into this idealism of
10:12:15 Internet gaming.
10:12:18 If it's not legal now, I don't know if it's legal or not
10:12:22 legal because the court cases as I heard you say,
10:12:26 specifically in Hillsborough County, have not been heard.
10:12:30 >> Then those laws did not challenge -- and the regulations
10:12:34 for Hillsborough County aren't challenging whether or not
10:12:38 the stimulated games, the chance sweepstakes, are gambling,
10:12:43 or a definition of gambling, they simply categorize this
10:12:48 type of activity and ban it.
10:12:52 >> Well, my statement is going to be this: I don't want to
10:12:56 see all of them in one area of town, or mostly in those
10:13:00 areas of town.
10:13:01 There won't be any in Harbor Island.
10:13:03 There won't be any in Davis Island.
10:13:05 And there will be none or very few in South Tampa or New
10:13:09 So the rest of the city is going to bear the brunt unless we
10:13:13 come up with a plan somehow legally to regulate the distance
10:13:20 they can be in.
10:13:21 Because if you don't do that, you don't have a saturation of
10:13:23 the hopeless -- that means me -- trying to make something
10:13:28 out of something that I can't win in.
10:13:30 That means they make the money and I lose whatever little I
10:13:33 And that's how that works.
10:13:37 I hate to make it that blunt but that's exactly how the
10:13:40 system is.
10:13:41 It's not happening for a specific time where you can have
10:13:43 horse racing or dog racing or whatever, jai alai or
10:13:47 It's year round, open year round.
10:13:49 And that only saturates the individuals who are there.
10:13:54 Money is taken from them.
10:13:55 They have less to deal with.
10:13:57 And I don't see too many Jaguars, Mercedes, and those kind
10:14:01 of automobiles, with furs and suede shoes coming in to those
10:14:09 That doesn't happen.
10:14:10 I see people with Social Security checks going in there.
10:14:13 And that's what it's about.
10:14:17 That's my statement how I feel about it.
10:14:18 >>JULIA MANDELL: If City Council wants me to review that
10:14:21 particular issue, which is having distance separation, and
10:14:25 looking at it, land use regulations affect it, if I get that
10:14:30 direction, I absolutely will.
10:14:32 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
10:14:33 I'm sorry.
10:14:34 Council members, again, are you finished with your
10:14:37 >>JULIA MANDELL: I am.
10:14:38 Thank you.
10:14:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Any other questions by council members at
10:14:40 this time?
10:14:42 Thank you very much.
10:14:42 Next we go to Thom Snelling and Gloria Moreda on this
10:14:46 subject matter.
10:14:47 >> I pretty much answered my questions.
10:15:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So you're part B.
10:15:04 It's like Medicare, part A and B.
10:15:06 >> I'm not sure if anyone is here for part C.
10:15:09 >> Any other questions for -- all right.
10:15:13 We go to part C.
10:15:15 This is a $250 you get when you pass away.
10:15:18 >> Jake Slater, City of Tampa neighborhood services.
10:15:23 I'm here to answer any questions concerning Internet cafes.
10:15:31 For your information, we currently have been six that paid a
10:15:38 business tax receipt.
10:15:40 And we don't have specific classifications for Internet
10:15:45 cafes in our ordinance.
10:15:46 We actually collect the tax for miscellaneous broker.
10:15:51 That's the only thing that would be fit.
10:15:54 We have not amended chapter 24 for classifications in over
10:15:58 15 years.
10:16:01 We collect a fee of $115 plus a $10 admin fee, plus we
10:16:07 charge 17.50 for each of the workers in those areas.
10:16:13 Currently, you asked about the overall locations.
10:16:20 From Busch Boulevard, Fowler Avenue, west Nokomis drive,
10:16:29 Franklin Street, downtown Tampa, and west Hillsborough
10:16:33 So right now they are kind of spread out.
10:16:44 We have not been involved in the enforcement.
10:16:46 Just as the chairman said in my years of working gambling,
10:16:49 years ago at the PD, this would be difficult to enforce it
10:16:59 would be real hard to enforce.
10:17:00 You have to prove what is going on and who is the victim.
10:17:04 It's tough.
10:17:07 And I concur with Cathy Coyle and within the attorneys not
10:17:13 to take any action until the pending suits are solved or
10:17:21 overall litigated.
10:17:22 One other point.
10:17:23 And I think it was brought up.
10:17:25 And I don't know why this happened.
10:17:26 But in the past couple of weeks, we have had three new
10:17:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me stop there.
10:17:37 Ms. Montelione, Ms. Capin.
10:17:38 >>LISA MONTELIONE: That is one of the questions I asked
10:17:42 earlier, being a trend and the rise in the number of
10:17:46 Internet cafes in the city.
10:17:49 And on the list that I have, I have got eight.
10:17:52 You mentioned six.
10:17:53 So does that mean that two of them have not paid business
10:17:59 You are probably not prepared to answer that right now but
10:18:01 maybe we can --
10:18:03 >> I could.
10:18:04 Currently on the list that I have, I have six that have paid
10:18:06 a business tax receipt.
10:18:08 One is opening soon.
10:18:10 And several of them have closed down.
10:18:13 >>LISA MONTELIONE: So would it because two of them of the
10:18:21 eight are owned by the same company?
10:18:23 Or would they have to pay separate business taxes at
10:18:26 different locations?
10:18:26 >> They would have to pay a separate business tax for each
10:18:29 of the spots.
10:18:31 >> So we might want to check on the eight that were provided
10:18:35 in our backup to see who hasn't paid the business tax.
10:18:39 >> Each location would have to have an individual tax.
10:18:45 >> Because one company owns an establishment on Fowler and
10:18:50 they own another establishment on South Dale Mabry.
10:18:54 We might want to go back and check and make sure that the
10:18:57 ones that are on this list have all paid their business
10:19:02 They should have.
10:19:02 The new application, can you tell us where those are
10:19:06 >> The new applications, I don't have designated.
10:19:10 I believe one is -- one is at a laundromat on Nebraska
10:19:17 One is -- one on west Hillsborough and the other I believe
10:19:31 on old Franklin Street.
10:19:33 >> Franklin, Hillsborough and one Nebraska, and that's the
10:19:38 one that's combined within be a laundromat.
10:19:42 If we don't have a classification for this, how do you know,
10:19:49 Mr. Slater, that these are Internet cafe applications?
10:19:53 >> Under chapter 24 we have over 700 classifications,
10:19:59 various types of business taxes.
10:20:02 Our inspectors go out there, and they actually verify that
10:20:07 the computers are set up and they are actually doing it.
10:20:10 But we don't have a specific classification in chapter 24
10:20:14 under the business tax ordinance for Internet cafes.
10:20:19 >> So how do you identify the ones, like you say, we have
10:20:27 three new applications.
10:20:28 How are those identified as Internet cafes if we don't have
10:20:31 a specific classification?
10:20:33 >> Either when they come in to us, actually pay a business
10:20:38 tax, they would actually tell us, or, on the other hand, we
10:20:43 go out there and actually do an on-site type of inspection.
10:20:47 >> Gotcha.
10:20:48 All right.
10:20:50 What would it take to add a classification for it as a
10:20:55 business tax, one of those 700?
10:21:01 >> You would have to open up chapter 24.
10:21:04 The current overall classifications in chapter 24 were
10:21:09 established in the middle 1990s when an equity study was
10:21:17 It was a mayoral appointed group that looked at the business
10:21:21 tax overall classifications, and came up with those at that
10:21:25 I believe it would take a move by City Council to open up
10:21:34 chapter 24 for updates.
10:21:38 That's the legal question that I am not real sure about.
10:21:46 Than has not been on-- done since I have been onboard.
10:21:50 >> You have the process for us to add a classification?
10:21:57 >>SAL TERRITO: One is opening our chapter 24.
10:21:59 Then we have to look at the state statute to see if there's
10:22:01 anything in there.
10:22:02 The statutes limit to amend our ordinances, how we can
10:22:08 address funding money, the charges to the business areas.
10:22:11 We have to look at the Florida statute as well to make sure
10:22:14 we have no restrictions on changing our ordinances on that
10:22:17 >> I'm contemplating asking for a motion that you come back
10:22:27 with a report, legal staff in combination with Mr. Slater
10:22:32 and Ms. Coyle, on a report, a staff report, just saying what
10:22:40 it would entail to open up chapter 4 of the legislation and
10:22:51 identify Internet cafe under the business class.
10:22:55 Thank you.
10:22:59 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Capin.
10:23:02 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Good morning.
10:23:03 You know, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid,
10:23:08 This is exactly what the regulation would put in place.
10:23:15 What I would like to see is a moratorium on Internet cafes
10:23:23 until we come back -- it looks like we are not going to be
10:23:28 going through with anything today, which I think is wise --
10:23:35 but ask legal to -- I'm going to make this as a motion.
10:23:40 And let me first say, when we talk about the poor and all
10:23:43 that, the state already takes care of that.
10:23:49 There are lottos in every gas station, every grocery store,
10:23:52 everywhere you can turn.
10:23:55 So that train has left the station.
10:23:57 And it was the state who did it.
10:24:00 That one.
10:24:01 The other thing I want to say is, when we talk about fees,
10:24:06 can we charge per machine for inspection by our regulators?
10:24:17 Is that something that is possible, to be able to take
10:24:23 care -- I mean, it's something that I wouldn't want us to
10:24:33 carry the burden of having to inspect these machines without
10:24:39 the prop privacy wall tore paying a fee.
10:24:45 Ms. Mandell, is that something --
10:24:48 >>JAKE SLATER: I guess we could write that into the chapter
10:24:51 24 ordinance where we could tax each of the machines, if we
10:24:56 put that in our ordinance.
10:25:01 Another note under chapter 24, when it was written, the
10:25:05 business tax used to tax each individual gas hose that would
10:25:16 come out, one for low, medium and high tech.
10:25:19 As you know there's now only one hose and you push the
10:25:25 So that would have to be written about taxing each of the
10:25:28 >> But it is a possibility?
10:25:30 >> As it falls now.
10:25:34 >>YVONNE CAPIN: That is something I would like to look at.
10:25:36 We are going to give legal direction.
10:25:41 Yes, Ms. Mandell?
10:25:42 >>JULIA MANDELL: I did want to note the way the city of
10:25:44 Jacksonville handles that exact issue is they had a fee as
10:25:48 part of their business regulation, not as part of -- a
10:25:55 business tax, it's a separate entity.
10:25:57 They have it as part of their additional business regulation
10:26:01 that there is a fee in place for each machine.
10:26:05 And that fee is directed for their code for the inspection
10:26:10 So they do collect additional moneys for each machine, and
10:26:14 that is sent over to their enforcement arm and is
10:26:20 specifically for their enforcement arm for the purposes of
10:26:23 inspection, and that's in line with the types of fees you
10:26:26 can charge in this business regulatory scheme, and that it
10:26:29 should be for the purposes only of inspection and monitoring
10:26:32 of that particular business that you are getting.
10:26:37 And you have to justify that fee?
10:26:39 >>JULIA MANDELL: That's correct.
10:26:40 >>YVONNE CAPIN: And say this is how many people we have out
10:26:42 there, this is what we are doing, this is how many times we
10:26:44 go out, and -- okay.
10:26:46 >> And certainly utilization.
10:26:49 And we have done this in the past of another jurisdiction
10:26:51 and how they justified it is also good evidence of your fees
10:26:55 being appropriate.
10:27:01 And other jurisdictions and the fees associated with those.
10:27:04 That's what we did with the pain management clinic as well,
10:27:07 is we utilized other jurisdictions and the fees with the
10:27:12 registry, so you can use other jurisdictions as a basis.
10:27:16 I will also need some evidence from code enforcement, Mr.
10:27:21 Slater's staff, to say, hey, this is what it generally costs
10:27:23 to go out and inspect and thoughts types of things, so those
10:27:27 can be justified.
10:27:30 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.
10:27:34 I would like to move that we -- sorry.
10:27:39 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just a reminder, per your rules at a
10:27:44 workshop you need to have input from the public before you
10:27:46 take action.
10:27:49 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I'm sorry, we haven't -- thank you.
10:27:53 Let me see here.
10:27:56 That was very important tore me.
10:27:58 The difference is right now we can charge a fee, and we have
10:28:02 to provide the evidence of why we are charging that fee,
10:28:09 whereas if we looked at chapter 24, or amended chapter 24,
10:28:14 we can look at a tax, a business tax.
10:28:20 And is there a limit on that business tax?
10:28:25 >> As far as I know, no, ma'am.
10:28:26 But let me say that -- this is another legal point.
10:28:36 If a business does not pay their business taxes dues, where
10:28:43 there are not a lot of penalties involved, where we have
10:28:46 certain criteria, if they don't pay by X amount of time,
10:28:50 then the amount goes up gradually up to 25% over the
10:28:55 original amount.
10:29:00 We have been successful in the last several years and
10:29:01 actually carrying the amounts over to each of the years, but
10:29:10 there's not a lot of teeth if the business does not pay.
10:29:13 >> There's not a lot of -- what, I'm sorry?
10:29:16 >> There's not a lot of teeth or public -- or repercussions.
10:29:22 >> So we are looking at amending chapter 24, along with the
10:29:32 Do you think that would be -- to put in the laymen's terms?
10:29:36 >>JULIA MANDELL: Legal department.
10:29:39 I think we need to differentiate between chapter 24, which
10:29:41 is that business tax, and what I am talking about which is
10:29:45 chapter 6.
10:29:46 >> And certain categories of businesses, business
10:29:54 regulations on that as opposed to what's in chapter -- you
10:29:57 know, your land use regulations, and then you can charge a
10:30:01 fee for those additional permits, so long as the fees are
10:30:06 associated with the processing of those permits, and
10:30:09 associated with the inspection, which might be related to
10:30:13 insuring that those businesses are operating consistent with
10:30:16 our business regulations.
10:30:17 >> I'm bouncing back and forth, and I know that.
10:30:24 I am going chapter 24.
10:30:25 And I realize that.
10:30:27 And I don't need to be try to confuse anyone.
10:30:30 I'm merely trying to straighten it out in my mind.
10:30:34 The avenue that may be best.
10:30:35 But maybe we need to look at those in the end.
10:30:41 So thank you.
10:30:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Any other council member at this time?
10:30:46 Thank you, Ms. Capin.
10:30:50 Is that the complete of A, B and C?
10:30:55 We go to the audience for three minutes on item number 5.
10:30:58 Anyone in the audience who would care to speak on this item,
10:31:01 please come forward.
10:31:01 Item number 5.
10:31:02 >> Pete Johnson, 510 Harrison.
10:31:09 Whatever we do on this, I really don't care because I'm not
10:31:13 a gambler, but I know that it can be addicting, and if it
10:31:17 goes into some of the lower-income neighborhoods, it can
10:31:20 create problems.
10:31:21 Yes, the state opened the door, but we have to also protect
10:31:25 our own people.
10:31:27 But the problem is enforcement.
10:31:31 How are we going to enforce it?
10:31:34 That's the biggest thing.
10:31:35 We have codes and regulations that we don't enforce now.
10:31:39 Business taxes are legally not enforceable by the State of
10:31:47 We go to court all the time trying to collect it.
10:31:50 Attorneys fight us all the time on it.
10:31:52 How are we going to enforce it?
10:31:55 I agree, we need to put a moratorium on it so it doesn't
10:31:59 spill out, and decide what the heck to do.
10:32:04 But please, if we are going to have code enforcement enforce
10:32:07 it, give the code enforcement, the department, enough money,
10:32:12 enough credibility, enough to at least be able to do their
10:32:18 Right now they don't even have enough vehicles to go around,
10:32:24 let alone cameras. So if we are going to have do something
10:32:28 like this and we expect code enforcement or business taxes
10:32:31 to enforce it, we have got to make sure that that department
10:32:34 has the ability to enforce it.
10:32:38 So please, keep of that in consideration.
10:32:41 Thank you.
10:32:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:32:43 Next, please.
10:32:43 >> Ed Tillou, Sulphur Springs.
10:32:52 I actually come on item 6 but --
10:32:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No, we are on 5.
10:32:59 >> I realize that. But this is a technical problem and a
10:33:03 technical solution more or less leaps out and I'm surprised
10:33:07 nobody has discussed it.
10:33:09 At the library you have this thing, I think it's called web
10:33:12 sense, it blocks off certain access sites.
10:33:18 And I think parents get than.
10:33:21 A couple of you, I guess you have grandchildren, so talk to
10:33:26 your parents, maybe your children have that.
10:33:31 And these sites that have gambling, given that they have
10:33:38 state regulation, they probably have some sort of code that
10:33:41 could be picked up.
10:33:43 And blocked if the site is blocked.
10:33:49 The one cafe I had an interest in is in the county and now I
10:33:53 suppose it's closed.
10:33:55 It's up along Fletcher next to the Burger King.
10:33:57 And that's really too bad because it's not a gambling kind
10:34:02 of thing there.
10:34:03 There's a lot of things on the computer.
10:34:05 And I think if a business said, look, we have this block in
10:34:11 place, okay, then it's just a business that provides this
10:34:17 service for various people coming to check your e-mail,
10:34:20 things like that, without having to go to kinko that's now
10:34:24 federal express.
10:34:25 I think that's a dollar a minute, something outrageous.
10:34:30 And the thing is if they do have access to these gambling
10:34:37 sites then it becomes a matter for the state.
10:34:39 So I think there needs to be some inquiry made with the
10:34:42 library about this -- I think it's called web sense.
10:34:46 I don't know.
10:34:47 And that would separate the sheep from the goat, so to be
10:34:52 >> Thank you very much.
10:34:56 Next, please.
10:34:56 >> Susan Long, 921 East Broad Street.
10:35:00 I live three blocks from the, quote, laundromat, sweepstakes
10:35:08 When it first opened, it was kind of quiet there.
10:35:11 Over time, people stand in line outside.
10:35:13 And they are not always really savory people.
10:35:17 When you are talking about whether or not gambling should be
10:35:19 allowed, you know, three miles down the road from me or two
10:35:23 miles down the road from me, the Seminole casino, people who
10:35:32 want to gamble will find a way to do it, be it an Internet
10:35:34 cafe, be it a poker game at their back table, be it over
10:35:39 at -- what is it they play over at the dog track, they got
10:35:43 poker over there.
10:35:44 They will find a place to gamble.
10:35:46 So I'm not big on saying nobody is allowed to gamble because
10:35:51 they do anyway.
10:35:52 You can regulate it as much as you want.
10:35:54 They are going to gamble anyway.
10:35:56 But I like Mr. Miranda's idea that we have a separation
10:35:59 requirement, because as he said, I'm one of the
10:36:02 neighborhoods that's going to have 55 of them.
10:36:05 We have a thousand used car lots, a ton of pawn shops, lousy
10:36:09 motels ands now they are going to put in a million Internet
10:36:12 So separation I think is great.
10:36:15 I don't know how you are going to enforce what they actually
10:36:18 do inside.
10:36:19 We'll leave that up to you. But I would like the
10:36:23 Thank you.
10:36:23 >> Next on item number 5.
10:36:25 >> Thank you for letting us speak.
10:36:27 My name is Heidi, and I am here to discuss specifically the
10:36:32 camera issue.
10:36:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We are on item number 5.
10:36:36 I'm sorry.
10:36:36 We are on number 5.
10:36:38 That's the one we had the workshop on.
10:36:40 Anyone else in the audience than would care to speak on item
10:36:43 number 5?
10:36:45 I see no one else.
10:36:48 Move to close.
10:36:50 Moved by Mrs. Montelione, second by Mrs. Capin.
10:36:54 The ayes have it unanimous.
10:36:56 You wanted to make a motion, I believe?
10:36:58 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes, sir, thank you.
10:37:00 Before I make the motion I am going to make a couple of
10:37:02 statements here.
10:37:09 In state law this is not gambling.
10:37:12 And we have been comparing it to casinos.
10:37:14 I compared it to lotto.
10:37:16 And it was in reference to the proliferation -- that word is
10:37:23 just not coming to me today.
10:37:24 It came earlier but not now. Anyway, in the laundromat is
10:37:31 exactly when I brought this forward I was trying to avoid in
10:37:34 our city.
10:37:38 The ban, also something I was trying to avoid because I you
10:37:43 knew of the lawsuits coming down the pipeline and I didn't
10:37:45 want us to be in that population.
10:37:47 So we have -- you know, either we regulator we have them in
10:37:58 every corner.
10:38:00 We ban it.
10:38:02 And we could be sued.
10:38:05 We need reasonable regulation.
10:38:07 And with that I will move the motion for legal to come back,
10:38:15 first with a plan, also to look at number 3, which is the
10:38:20 Jacksonville business regulatory, along with looking at the
10:38:23 different suggestions, minimum size room, location,
10:38:27 distances, also when I mention hotels I want to refer to
10:38:34 limit locations to no outside entrance.
10:38:39 In that you are restricting -- in effect you are separating
10:38:42 them and limiting them in number.
10:38:45 When you do that.
10:38:46 So no outside entrance.
10:38:48 Population limit, number of business permits, minimum of
10:38:54 gaming devices.
10:38:55 I would like to see that at at least 25.
10:38:58 Limit signage.
10:39:00 And again, the distance is brought up.
10:39:04 With that, Ms. Mandell, I would like to also, with that
10:39:11 motion, ask that while we are in the plan, we set forth a
10:39:20 And I would like us to come back within the next 30 days
10:39:29 minimum, two weeks if we can, but as soon as possible.
10:39:35 Is all of that possible, part of this possible?
10:39:37 Let me know.
10:39:37 >>JULIA MANDELL: I believe I am on the agenda next week,
10:39:44 depending on the outcome of this, to bring you back a
10:39:47 temporary abatement ordinance.
10:39:49 What I can do is prepare that, put that on the agenda for
10:39:51 next week.
10:39:52 And from there, I would recommend that you set some time
10:39:57 frame for me to bring back these regulations, if you want to
10:40:00 do it in a workshop, we can do it in a workshop, or in a
10:40:04 regular meeting, and now I leave that up to you to decide,
10:40:07 if you are going to go ahead and do the temporary abatement
10:40:11 ordinance, you may want to give me 30 days, 60 days, to come
10:40:16 back in a workshop again with all of the suggestions that
10:40:19 you are making today.
10:40:20 You can discuss it further and then we can put that on the
10:40:22 agenda as an ordinance.
10:40:24 >> Thank you.
10:40:26 So that's my motion.
10:40:27 >> I have a motion.
10:40:28 Do we have a second?
10:40:29 Second by Ms. Mulhern on a close vote with Mr. Suarez.
10:40:33 Mrs. Montelione.
10:40:33 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I can say I am not going to be
10:40:38 supporting this ordinance or this motion because we just a
10:40:41 few minutes ago discussed waiting until the lawsuits moved
10:40:44 through to see if whether or not anything we do is going to
10:40:50 be challenged by a court.
10:40:52 And if we are modeling our ordinance after something in
10:40:57 another jurisdiction that is currently moving through the
10:40:59 court system, I don't want staff to spend time on something
10:41:04 that we are going to end up in court defending.
10:41:20 >> I would support a recommendation for Internet cafe as
10:41:24 part of our business tax licensing procedure, or business
10:41:26 tax procedure.
10:41:29 And I really don't think until we know wharf the court feels
10:41:45 is right for defend these regulations.
10:41:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: If there's a moratorium, you can't
10:41:51 continue to issue permits for this type of operation.
10:41:55 That's a correct statement or not?
10:41:56 >>JULIA MANDELL: Yes.
10:41:57 It would be for those businesses who want to apply -- or
10:42:02 want to bring this type of business in.
10:42:04 If you are in existence I wouldn't recommend stopping
10:42:07 existing businesses.
10:42:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand that but --
10:42:09 >> For a temporary period of time.
10:42:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am trying to find a way we can satisfy
10:42:13 all parties, if a moratorium -- how long can you have a
10:42:17 moratorium before it's not a moratorium?
10:42:21 And in that time how long you think the county of
10:42:25 Hillsborough County which is the county we live in is going
10:42:27 to be heard of for trial.
10:42:29 >> The earliest time frame of when a temporary moratoria
10:42:32 becomes a permanent ban, the courts look at about six months
10:42:36 so long as you are in the planning process.
10:42:38 If you just put it out there and let it sort of languish, it
10:42:41 can become a problem.
10:42:42 Certainly whenever you put in any kind of moratorium, yes,
10:42:47 you can have an action brought against you.
10:42:49 I think there's only been one other situation that I have
10:42:51 been involved with in the city that we have done a temporary
10:42:53 abatement ordinance.
10:42:55 There is a risk there.
10:42:56 But would it give us time to plan?
10:42:58 It would give us time to plan but you are taking a risk.
10:43:01 >> Let me ask one more question and turn it back to council.
10:43:04 What, in your opinion, is a proper time frame for moratorium
10:43:09 to be extended so that possibly the settlement of the case
10:43:13 that Mr. Reddick referred to earlier would be possibly
10:43:17 already held?
10:43:18 >>JULIA MANDELL: I wouldn't feel comfortable having any
10:43:21 temporary abatement ordinance go more than six months.
10:43:23 I don't know that these cases will be resolved in the next
10:43:27 six months.
10:43:27 Once you get in the court system, you don't know how long
10:43:31 things are going to tab and the case in Hillsborough County
10:43:33 just got started.
10:43:34 The case in Seminole County has been ongoing for a period of
10:43:38 When I come back, I can come back to you after talking to
10:43:42 the folks in Seminole County to find out what they believe
10:43:44 their time frames are, in terms of any sort of resolution.
10:43:48 Keep in mind there's the possibility --
10:43:58 >>MIKE SUAREZ: In terms of option 3, that is not currently
10:44:01 in the court system?
10:44:02 >> No.
10:44:05 The Jacksonville ordinance is not in the court system.
10:44:08 It's only the ban in the court system.
10:44:09 >> And there's a reason I ask.
10:44:10 I understand from Ms. Montelione point about going forward
10:44:14 with something is in court and I agree with her on that
10:44:19 particular point.
10:44:19 But this is not that circumstance.
10:44:21 I think that the ordinance itself has not been challenged,
10:44:25 there's no reason why we can't start regulating prior to
10:44:29 being challenged, if we are challenged.
10:44:31 And the city of Jacksonville is the largest city in Florida
10:44:34 in terms of land mass and everything else.
10:44:37 To me, I think we might as well go forward with this, and,
10:44:41 you know, do the moratorium until we have a completed
10:44:45 My suggestion would be maybe look at a 90 day more tomorrow
10:44:50 or 120 day moratorium with the express knowledge that we are
10:44:55 working on this particular ordinance modeled over the city
10:45:00 of Jacksonville's ordinance.
10:45:01 That's my suggestion.
10:45:03 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick.
10:45:04 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10:45:10 When I raised the original question, council advises that
10:45:19 it's wise not to go forward.
10:45:21 And now listening to council, council is saying give her a
10:45:25 week to look at Seminole County to review and come back next
10:45:31 week and give us a recommendation to find out what's going
10:45:34 on with Seminole County.
10:45:35 I don't see the rush.
10:45:38 And I do agree with Councilwoman Montelione.
10:45:42 Why would we put staff into a situation where they have got
10:45:48 to do additional work, unnecessary work, and we can wait and
10:45:52 get an opinion from staff, legal council, next week.
10:45:57 And if we need to put a moratorium on this, we can do it
10:46:01 next week.
10:46:02 I don't think these cafes are going to pop up between now
10:46:08 and next Thursday.
10:46:09 And if we can wait, and I would like to say we wait until
10:46:14 next Thursday and allow council to come back and give us an
10:46:17 opinion, time to review what's going on in Seminole County,
10:46:20 give us background information, how long that process might
10:46:23 great, or the status, and give us some direction.
10:46:27 So I don't think we need to move forward with anything today
10:46:32 and give her an opportunity to come back to us next week.
10:46:35 And I would like to offer that as a friendly motion.
10:46:41 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Ms. Mandell, please.
10:46:43 My thought on this -- and let me know, if we are waiting,
10:46:49 the purpose is to wait to see what the outcome of the
10:46:53 lawsuit in Seminole County is.
10:46:56 Is that a plan that will stand for a moratorium?
10:47:03 Can you present that as a plan for a moratorium?
10:47:07 Because what I understood from you is that we can present it
10:47:12 as long as we are planning.
10:47:17 >>JULIA MANDELL: Temporary moratorias have been upheld when
10:47:22 you as a jurisdiction are going through the process of
10:47:25 deciding how to regulate something.
10:47:28 I can't tell you that a proper basis for a temporary
10:47:32 moratoria is solely to wait till other jurisdictions and
10:47:40 I can do additional research.
10:47:41 I might be able to find somebody case law on that point.
10:47:44 But from my understanding of that area of the law, it's
10:47:48 typically for the purposes of planning and making regulatory
10:47:52 decisions from each local government's jurisdictional
10:47:58 processes, and not on the basis of other jurisdictions.
10:48:02 Without looking at that issue more, I would be very
10:48:05 uncomfortable giving Visas to whether or not that would be a
10:48:08 proper basis for a temporary moratoria.
10:48:13 Waiting on other jurisdictions, I adjutant don't feel
10:48:16 comfortable giving that advice today.
10:48:18 It's something certainly in a week you I can come back and
10:48:20 tell you.
10:48:21 But as of today, no.
10:48:24 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay.
10:48:24 I want to move forward.
10:48:25 Not only I will add that along with that, with the 25
10:48:29 minimum of 25 machines because it would be -- I want to know
10:48:33 about the regulation fees, the fees for inspection, and
10:48:40 business fees.
10:48:44 So I'm adding that to my motion.
10:48:47 And I believe it was seconded.
10:48:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say, Ms. Mandell, please.
10:48:58 If I pulled the question and I narrow that question so
10:49:01 narrow that if I base it only on Seminole or Hillsborough,
10:49:07 then of course the answer is going to be no, it can't,
10:49:09 because I don't think a court of law is going to say, oh,
10:49:12 you are waiting on somebody else's lawsuit, this, that and
10:49:16 the other.
10:49:16 I would say no.
10:49:17 However, if in fact you are making reasonable attempts to
10:49:25 learn and bring into the fray all the information we haven't
10:49:30 heard from the Internet cafe operators, we haven't heard
10:49:33 much from our own city staff, which is you, we certainly
10:49:36 haven't heard from the department of business and
10:49:38 professional regulation, we haven't heard from any
10:49:41 supervisory of those departments to take input to
10:49:44 facilitate, we haven't heard the questions of distance, we
10:49:47 haven't heard the answers to those questions.
10:49:49 So I would be inclined that if the statement is made from us
10:49:52 to you to be look at all of these regulatory agencies that
10:49:56 have something to do with this under chapter 550 -- I think
10:50:01 that's what it is in the state.
10:50:02 I don't know that much about gambling.
10:50:04 But these things that come about, you come back and I think
10:50:08 you can get your six months if you ask it in the form of
10:50:12 informative information for the public.
10:50:13 Then the court of law is going to tell you you are entitled
10:50:17 to six months.
10:50:18 But to me to ask you -- the people of Key West, that's my
10:50:22 cousin over there who is not doing very well -- in fact the
10:50:25 judge is going to tell me no.
10:50:27 That's how I feel.
10:50:28 So I understand what we have here.
10:50:30 So we have, Mr. I believe, a motion by Ms. Capin, and it was
10:50:36 seconded by Mrs. Montelione, if I recall, on a close vote --
10:50:40 excuse me, by Ms. Mulhern.
10:50:43 I got the M's mixed up.
10:50:46 Mrs. Mulhern, Montelione and Miranda.
10:50:48 I get them mixed up because of the long hair.
10:50:51 Then a close vote with Mr. Make Suarez, if I remember that.
10:50:54 And it was an attempt by Mr. Reddick to amend.
10:50:56 And then I think he kind of went away, I'm not sure, but I
10:51:01 haven't heard the friendly amendment being accepted by the
10:51:04 Maybe I'm wrong.
10:51:05 But I didn't hear that.
10:51:06 So there's where we are at today.
10:51:10 I'm ready for a vote if council members are.
10:51:16 Ms. Capin, would you make your motion?
10:51:18 >>HARRY COHEN: I'll wait until she clarifies the motion.
10:51:25 I'll wait till she clarifies the motion.
10:51:32 >>YVONNE CAPIN: (off microphone)
10:51:37 I first made this motion in March 1, and I believe legal did
10:51:44 look at it and has been looking at it as far as regulation.
10:51:47 Or we would not have three options here today.
10:51:53 So with that, option 3, regulate the city of Jacksonville
10:52:00 business regulatory points that Ms. Mandell brought forth.
10:52:05 Along with that, minimum size of rooms, if that is something
10:52:10 that we want to look at, limit location to no outside
10:52:14 entrance, limit number of business permits to the
10:52:20 Minimum number of Internet gaming devices to 25.
10:52:26 Limit signage, alcohol, and distance.
10:52:31 Also, the fees for regulating, inspecting, and business.
10:52:41 What we would be able to do there.
10:52:45 Let me see if there's anything else here.
10:52:51 I think that was it.
10:52:53 I'm sorry.
10:53:05 And on the 27th, we have the status regarding posting
10:53:10 special conditions -- I'm sorry -- abatement, ordinance of
10:53:19 sweepstakes cafes.
10:53:20 Along with than would be abatement.
10:53:22 And that is a plan so that we can move forth with the
10:53:28 And I would venture to put 120 days on that abatement while
10:53:32 we study this, and they come back, and then we can look at
10:53:36 it at that point, and Ms. Mandell, that would be in the
10:53:43 regulations to come back to us in 60 days, which would be
10:53:49 November -- let me look at that.
10:54:01 I'm sorry.
10:54:01 That would be November 29th.
10:54:03 Or the -- oh, we are closed, Thanksgiving.
10:54:06 November 15th.
10:54:07 >>JULIA MANDELL: Is that a workshop agenda or regular?
10:54:15 >> It's a regular.
10:54:16 >>JULIA MANDELL: I didn't know if it was everybody's intent
10:54:18 for me to actually bring for ordinance that you can put on
10:54:21 first reading at that time or if you want to workshop an
10:54:23 actual ordinance.
10:54:26 >>YVONNE CAPIN: That would be better.
10:54:27 November 29th.
10:54:29 To workshop what you bring back and that gives a plan for
10:54:31 the abatement.
10:54:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have Ms. Mulhern, then Mr. Cohen.
10:54:35 >>MARY MULHERN: I just want to ask, I seconded the motion
10:54:39 but I want to know if Olympian Reddick's amendment -- are
10:54:45 you in agreement with the ordinance as stated?
10:54:54 >> No.
10:54:54 >>HARRY COHEN: But this just changed.
10:54:57 Because originally, the motion, in my understanding, she was
10:55:01 actually asking for an ordinance to come back.
10:55:03 Now the motion is to have a workshop at the end of November.
10:55:07 So, in fact, a vote in favor of this is not in favor of even
10:55:14 putting an ordinance on the table at this point.
10:55:16 It's simply in favor of a few months from now work shopping
10:55:20 the issue again.
10:55:25 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Putting a plan in motion.
10:55:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say this.
10:55:32 It was not mentioned, I guess -- I don't not who you are
10:55:35 going to ask -- never was there mention of legal department
10:55:38 getting or the attorneys in Tallahassee regarding department
10:55:41 of business and professional regulations with their
10:55:45 supervisors or their staff to attend these hearings, so that
10:55:48 possibly they may or may not show, to give their input on
10:55:53 where they are at statutorily, where they have been.
10:55:56 They have been doing this for two or three years with no
10:55:59 result because the legislature failed to act in some
10:56:02 So what I'm saying is, there's never been a mention that
10:56:05 these things -- I don't want to have legalized gambling in
10:56:09 every corner of the City of Tampa.
10:56:10 And I'm not talking about Internet cafes.
10:56:12 It started out one thing, racing, and it ended up with
10:56:16 And in this instance, I'm afraid that if we don't close the
10:56:20 door to some aspect, and that's all you can have -- and
10:56:24 that's up to you good folks to figure out how things, to
10:56:26 figure out that you cannot have simulcasting, you can't have
10:56:31 live this, live that.
10:56:32 Only what that machine does or doesn't do.
10:56:34 I don't know what it does other than take your money.
10:56:37 So other than those things, that has not been mentioned.
10:56:40 You have closed the door and should close the door on any
10:56:45 future gambling in these small areas.
10:56:49 It doesn't work.
10:56:53 Anyway, I'm going to stop there because it doesn't talk to
10:56:56 anything like that.
10:56:57 Yes, sir, council.
10:56:58 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just a clarification on the motion based
10:57:02 on the discussions.
10:57:03 Because I have heard the first time it was stated regarding
10:57:09 the moratorium or abatement being brought back next week,
10:57:13 which was already previously placed.
10:57:15 And if you look on your calendar it's already previously
10:57:20 placed by council on next week's agenda in anticipation of
10:57:23 today's workshop.
10:57:24 And I thought that was made as part of your motion when it
10:57:28 was restated.
10:57:29 So I just want to be clear that when council votes, whether
10:57:34 or not in addition it coming back on the workshop on
10:57:37 November 29th, which I make a recommendation that you
10:57:41 set a time, perhaps 11 a.m -- I don't know what's on your
10:57:46 calendar -- but to determine whether or not that includes
10:57:50 Ms. Mandell bringing back an ordinance for an abatement as
10:57:55 you stated, 120 days, I believe.
10:57:57 I don't know if your motion made that clear.
10:58:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I think she said a workshop, not an
10:58:06 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.
10:58:06 At first, I think when I first mentioned it, it was
10:58:10 And then I looked at it.
10:58:13 And because it is -- what my intention is the planning part.
10:58:18 And let's get specific on the planning part.
10:58:22 And that is when we can bring it back as a workshop.
10:58:26 And as a workshop, yes, that would the moratorium abatement
10:58:31 would be part of this, to be -- would it be next week or
10:58:36 would it be -- thank you.
10:58:40 >>JULIA MANDELL: And I could say what my understanding is
10:58:44 of what the discussion and the motion is.
10:58:47 The first piece of this was today, so to have a workshop
10:58:52 that City Council would better define what they wanted to do
10:58:55 about this issue.
10:58:55 The second piece of it would be what I would be coming back
10:58:58 with next week which is a temporary abatement ordinance,
10:59:02 which I would recommend goes no longer than six months.
10:59:05 The third piece of this is having the legal department to
10:59:10 draft a regulation specific to the City of Tampa with some
10:59:15 of the discussions points that we had today.
10:59:19 I could bring that to you as an ordinance.
10:59:20 But I'm recommending that I bring it to you as an additional
10:59:23 workshop, because once you have that front of you you can
10:59:26 decide what works and what doesn't or what makes sense.
10:59:28 We could also ask staff, myself, or Mr. Slater, to contact
10:59:35 the existing operators of the Internet sweepstakes cafes,
10:59:40 and they could weigh in at that workshop, and from there you
10:59:43 could take action, direct an ordinance be put on the agenda
10:59:48 or not.
10:59:49 That would be your final call.
10:59:51 In addition, if Mr. Miranda wants -- if council wants to ask
10:59:55 the legal department as Mr. Miranda just discussed, to
10:59:58 contact the Department of Professional Regulation to come
11:00:02 back with some additional information relating to what's
11:00:04 happening at the state level, that's certainly something we
11:00:07 could do.
11:00:08 I could try my best for next week or I could go ahead and do
11:00:11 it at the workshop that we are going to have in 60 days so
11:00:14 we have a bigger picture at that time.
11:00:17 I leave that up to council to decide.
11:00:19 But that's sort of the way that I was hearing your motion.
11:00:23 >>YVONNE CAPIN: As the maker of the motion I consider that a
11:00:25 friendly amendment.
11:00:26 I would add that.
11:00:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say this.
11:00:29 If you bring something next week and at the same time you
11:00:30 are saying in 60 days.
11:00:36 I'm confused and I'm on this side of the dais.
11:00:38 I can imagine how people on that side of the dais feel.
11:00:42 So what are you bringing back next week that you are not
11:00:44 going to bring back 60 days from now?
11:00:47 In a week's time are you going to have time to bring all the
11:00:50 people that the seven or eight or six or whatever it is on
11:00:52 the Internet cafes, are you going to have the time to set
11:00:55 the calendar, see if they want to show, department of
11:00:58 business professional regulation, are you going to have all
11:01:01 the time to bring the individuals who will be affected one
11:01:06 way or the other, are you going to have time to ask the
11:01:08 administration do they have the man power to go out and
11:01:11 consider all these regulations that we are putting into
11:01:13 these new regulatory agencies called Internet cafes, gaming,
11:01:18 are you going to have all that in one week, to have all that
11:01:25 >>JULIA MANDELL: What I understand and what's on the agenda
11:01:26 already, a couple of months ago for the legal department to
11:01:26 draft a temporary abatement ordinance. There was -- I had
11:01:33 requested that that be continued until after the workshop so
11:01:37 whatever direction City Council wanted to go in as it
11:01:41 relates to regulating Internet cafes.
11:01:44 If you didn't want to do anything, bringing a temporary
11:01:47 moratoria didn't make a lot of sense, because I think
11:01:50 legally you might have some issues.
11:01:51 What I understood I was bringing back next week is
11:01:54 thoroughly a temporary abatement ordinance, within that
11:01:57 ordinance I will indicate, we are having another workshop in
11:02:01 60 days.
11:02:02 We are in the process of drafting regulations, and that is
11:02:05 what's forming the basis of the temporary abatement
11:02:08 So that's for the next week.
11:02:11 I think it's completely fair to say there's no way I am
11:02:14 going to be able to get people from the department of
11:02:16 business regulation, that I am going to have that level of
11:02:19 discussion available for next week.
11:02:21 That wasn't what I was planning.
11:02:23 And I won't have enough time to get that accomplished.
11:02:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: What are you going to do next week?
11:02:27 >> Just a temporary abatement ordinance that I am going to
11:02:29 put on for first reading.
11:02:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: All right.
11:02:35 All in favor of the motion indicate by saying aye.
11:02:38 Opposed nay.
11:02:39 Show it passed unanimously.
11:02:42 We go to item number 6.
11:02:52 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I called for the question.
11:02:53 >> Motion by Mrs. Capin, second by Ms. Mulhern.
11:02:57 All in favor?
11:02:59 Motion passes.
11:03:03 On Mrs. Capin motion.
11:03:05 Seconded by Mrs. Mulhern.
11:03:06 All in favor of the motion indicate by saying aye.
11:03:08 Opposed nay.
11:03:09 Motion passes 5-2, with my vote saying let's see what
11:03:14 happens next week.
11:03:14 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I want to make the motion I referred to
11:03:20 I would like to have Mr. Slater who I think left the room --
11:03:25 no, there he is -- to come back with a staff report on the
11:03:29 27th at 10:00 a.m.
11:03:32 Mr. Slater, is that enough time for you, a week, or would
11:03:35 you like to have two weeks to be bring it back on the
11:03:39 Than would be for you to verify the list of the eight that
11:03:44 we were provided in our backup material against the number 6
11:03:46 that you had as far as paying the business tax.
11:03:49 So I would like a staff report on who has not paid the
11:03:53 business tax from that list of eight we were provided.
11:03:58 I would like Mr. Territo with legal department to come back
11:04:01 with the staff report on the amending of chapter 24, I
11:04:09 believe it is, in order to add another category on the
11:04:12 business tax application, to try to identify Internet or
11:04:18 sweepstakes cafe.
11:04:19 >> I think you could probably get the first one next week.
11:04:21 I'm not sure I can get the other one next week.
11:04:24 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Then let's do that in -- is it two
11:04:27 No, it's more than two weeks.
11:04:29 How about October 18th, roughly a month?
11:04:34 Thank you very much.
11:04:38 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mrs. Montelione.
11:04:41 Seconded by Mr. Reddick.
11:04:43 All in favor of that motion please indicate by saying aye.
11:04:45 Opposed nay.
11:04:46 Motion passes unanimously.
11:04:47 Mr. Cohen?
11:04:49 >>HARRY COHEN: I just wanted to make clear that what we did
11:04:52 in voting for this is a motion before Councilwoman
11:04:54 Montelione was to put on the agenda the issue of whether or
11:04:58 not to have a moratorium.
11:05:00 We didn't vote in favor of whether or not you have one or
11:05:03 We are simply going to bring it back and have that vote in a
11:05:07 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I thought I made that clear.
11:05:16 >>HARRY COHEN: I was merely saying it because that was a
11:05:19 complicated discussion and I wasn't sure if people in the
11:05:21 audience were able to follow it.
11:05:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Item number 6 is the ordinance discussing
11:05:29 the drafting of an ordinance regarding the use of familiar
11:05:38 and that's where we are today.
11:05:39 Is anyone in administration going to speak on this item,
11:05:42 cameras downtown?
11:05:48 This is your Kodak moment.
11:05:50 >> Mr. Shimberg, are you out there?
11:05:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: No Kodak moments? Yes, sir, I'm sorry.
11:06:01 >> Captain Mike Thomas with the Tampa Police Department.
11:06:13 I'm here to answer any questions for you.
11:06:14 I'm not here to make a statement about the ordinance or any
11:06:18 So if you are going to need to ask our position or technical
11:06:22 questions about the system, that's what I am here for.
11:06:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay.
11:06:26 Anyone else from the police department or from the
11:06:27 administration care to make a statement at this time?
11:06:31 I see no one.
11:06:32 This is discussion by council.
11:06:33 And then we will open to the floor for public comments,
11:06:36 three minutes per person.
11:06:38 Council members, you want to go right to left, left to right
11:06:41 or individually?
11:06:42 Individually, I guess.
11:06:43 Who wants to go first?
11:06:47 Boy, am I batting 100.
11:06:49 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I'll go first.
11:06:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Montelione.
11:06:53 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Or Ms. Mulhern, would you like to go
11:07:00 first since we both reached at the same time?
11:07:02 Because I would be more than happy to relinquish to you.
11:07:11 I have had reservations, and still sitting on the fence
11:07:15 about, you know, what we are going to do with these cameras,
11:07:19 now that the RNC is over.
11:07:22 I did review quite a bit of material that was provided.
11:07:27 I reviewed the contract, and I reviewed the transcript of
11:07:30 the original hearing we had when we approved the purchase of
11:07:33 the contract, as well as information provided by the ACLU by
11:07:39 e-mail to me yesterday.
11:07:48 For me there is a delegate balance, and I am sure you are
11:07:51 going to hear this from every single council member, what is
11:07:53 the balance between providing security for our city, what is
11:07:56 the balance between individuals rights to privacy, and just
11:08:03 one of the things that the ACLU pointed out was something
11:08:06 they call the chilling effect of cameras and discusses how
11:08:11 it might put a damper on people -- they put it as, quote,
11:08:17 life enriching protective expressive activity.
11:08:20 And that that would be dampered.
11:08:23 There's concerns about where the cameras are located and the
11:08:26 number of cameras.
11:08:27 I did sit with the TPD and looked at the cameras' ability.
11:08:35 We have been provided -- I know I had asked for it when I
11:08:40 was there, the maps of where the cameras are actually
11:08:42 located, and how they work, and all my questions were
11:08:48 answered so thank you very much, detective, for spending the
11:08:51 time with me yesterday and explaining some of those
11:08:54 technical items as well as those questions that I had that
11:09:00 you weighed in on.
11:09:01 A couple of important points to me is the cost and expense.
11:09:10 And revealing the contract -- and I would like to hear from
11:09:14 I don't know if Mr. Territo can answer that or if we need
11:09:17 someone from contract administration to answer -- but the
11:09:19 contract provides for a 365-day warranty period, and we
11:09:26 would not have any expense for any maintenance or any error
11:09:34 messages because the technology -- does the camera break or
11:09:38 the glass break on the lens.
11:09:40 It's more of a software, so you would get error messages
11:09:46 that need to be investigated.
11:09:47 That would be of no cost to us for the next year.
11:09:50 >>SAL TERRITO: I can give you the legal question but I am
11:09:52 not going to get into the technology.
11:09:54 There's a one-year warranty on the cameras.
11:09:56 And that warranty has not yet started because the city --
11:09:59 >> That was my next question.
11:10:01 >>SAL TERRITO: The city has not formally accepted that yet.
11:10:04 There are still some things they are working out.
11:10:06 Once that is accepted, that's when the one-year warranty
11:10:09 >> So suffice to say we have a little more than a year
11:10:15 because we are looking at a future date for acceptance and
11:10:18 then the clock starts ticking.
11:10:27 The other major issue other than cost, monetary cost, hard
11:10:32 cost, is the cost to our society and to the public in
11:10:36 general, and there's some things that we discussed when the
11:10:40 ordinance was brought up for us to approve the contract
11:10:44 originally, and it was through an amendment to Mr. Reddick's
11:10:48 motion that I asked for this workshop to take place, because
11:10:53 the importance, I think, that we all mentioned was what is
11:10:57 going to happen to these cameras after the RNC which is why
11:11:00 I wanted to have this workshop.
11:11:03 The cameras during the RNC, thanks to mother nature we
11:11:10 hardly had any of the numbers of protestors we had expected,
11:11:14 and because of the training and the deployment of this 3500
11:11:20 officers that we had here, it was a good experience.
11:11:26 They didn't really get used for the purpose we needed them
11:11:30 to be used for when we initially approved the purchase.
11:11:34 And we were worried about civil unrest, damage to property,
11:11:37 you know, protests, fights, things like that breaking out.
11:11:42 So I think than goes to the point that if we didn't need
11:11:48 them, in retrospect, to the original intention during the
11:11:53 RNC, do we still need them today?
11:11:56 So that turned my attention to something else that was
11:11:59 mentioned when I was reviewing the camera facilities the
11:12:04 other day, is, is this a tool for us to promote our downtown
11:12:12 as being safe?
11:12:14 We all know that they see more of a perfection in a lot of
11:12:20 people's minds.
11:12:22 I go to civic association meetings all the time, and people
11:12:25 are saying, oh, we have a lot of crime.
11:12:26 Our crime rate is up.
11:12:28 And, no, our crime rate is not up.
11:12:31 Our crime rate is down.
11:12:32 And down by large numbers.
11:12:37 So we already have a safe city, and a safe downtown.
11:12:41 But I can tell you what my experience is walking back to my
11:12:44 car alone at night from Curtis Hixon park to wherever my
11:12:50 vehicle is back here at City Hall, walking the streets, you
11:12:54 know, 10:00 or later at night alone, you do feel a sense
11:13:01 that you are vulnerable, and than you may be a victim.
11:13:06 And whether or not that's true unanimous sense that data is
11:13:10 there to prove that it's true, or whether it's just an idea
11:13:14 that I have in my mind because all of the bad things that
11:13:21 you have seen on TV, is the question.
11:13:23 It's a matter of perception.
11:13:25 So if people feel safer because there are cameras recording
11:13:31 the actions on the streets, would that bring them -- or to
11:13:38 feel more comfortable downtown and visit our restaurants and
11:13:41 spend time in the park and not worry about where their car
11:13:44 is parked and if something is going to happen.
11:13:49 We live or work downtown or come from big cities, fairly
11:13:57 But a lot of our residents don't ever come downtown.
11:14:01 I mean, there are people are in my district in New Tampa who
11:14:04 avoid downtown at all costs.
11:14:09 We are spending a lot of money on making this a vibrant
11:14:15 And for people to say, I'll never go downtown, it just, you
11:14:18 know, too scary, or they picture Gothen City, I guess.
11:14:24 In that way, the cameras might prove to be useful, because
11:14:30 they will feel that in some way they are protected even if
11:14:33 it's just a perception.
11:14:35 So that's the concern that I have, is balancing that idea of
11:14:45 safety, even if it is just a perception with the invasion of
11:14:52 individual privacy.
11:14:55 So without getting into a lot of the technical aspects of
11:14:58 how -- just like was brought up earlier, you can block
11:15:02 Internet Web sites, you can block certain things off those
11:15:06 And that was a very good point than Mr. Tillou had made.
11:15:10 So if people who live in SkyPoint, for example, are worried
11:15:14 about the cameras that are in Curtis Hixon park and they can
11:15:17 be turned on the windows or the balcony of SkyPoint, you can
11:15:22 actually mask out the entire building so you cannot see
11:15:26 anything other than that there is a structure there.
11:15:29 So that's a useful tool.
11:15:31 And what I would like to look into, and one of the things
11:15:34 that the ACLU pointed out in their letter, was regulation.
11:15:39 Cameron regulation, rules are needed to establish a clear
11:15:44 public understanding of such issues as whether video signals
11:15:48 are recorded, under what conditions and how long they are
11:15:52 So I would be in favor of an ordinance, going to be asking
11:15:58 council to be bring back an ordinance as I had originally
11:16:02 wanted in the beginning when we approved the purchase of the
11:16:05 cameras, and part of that ordinance that P I would like to
11:16:09 see a committee, because there is a committee referred to in
11:16:13 Chief Castor's original presentation to us, there was a
11:16:16 committee that studied the cameras, and it took the RNC to
11:16:24 buy the cameras, to look at the system and operate and the
11:16:27 software that goes along with it.
11:16:29 I would like to have the committee as part of that ordinance
11:16:31 to periodically review the use of those cameras, where they
11:16:36 are located, who is monitoring them, what the status of
11:16:42 numbers of crimes that were either averted or captured on
11:16:47 camera than were successfully prosecuted.
11:16:50 And so as a part of any ordinance that we see, I want to see
11:16:54 some oversight and regulation built in so that these cameras
11:17:01 are regularly monitored by those other than the TPD that is
11:17:09 directly in charge of those cameras.
11:17:16 I didn't put that eloquently and I'm sure Mr. Cohen will
11:17:19 speak eloquently later.
11:17:21 So that's what I would like to put on the table, is that if
11:17:25 we do have an ordinance that comes out of this as a
11:17:30 recommendation, which I would support, I want to be see
11:17:33 oversight on those cameras as a part of that ordinance.
11:17:38 And we'll discuss, I'm sure, other members have discussed
11:17:42 where those cameras are located and Hough how they will be
11:17:49 I think downtown we have enough cameras that we can possibly
11:17:53 disable them and put them in other areas that might be
11:17:56 benefit to us.
11:17:56 They were concentrated in the areas for specific reasons and
11:18:00 placed in specific regions downtown because of the RNC.
11:18:03 The RNC isn't here.
11:18:04 So maybe there are better other locations that we can locate
11:18:08 those cameras.
11:18:10 Looking at places to locate them I know is not an easy
11:18:15 Are they going to be affordable?
11:18:17 We can just move them around wherever we want?
11:18:21 It's going to be a chore to locate the cameras.
11:18:23 It's not going to be cheap.
11:18:24 And wherever we choose to say these might be better off in
11:18:30 different locations, we have to be very careful about that
11:18:33 location, and look at the expenses of relocating them.
11:18:37 Thank you so much.
11:18:39 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Cohen.
11:18:39 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you.
11:18:42 Normally, when we have a discussion like this, someone from
11:18:45 the administration frames the issue that we start with, and
11:18:49 then council members weigh in on it and ask questions about
11:18:52 it after the fact.
11:18:54 And while maybe someone is on their way down here, it might
11:18:59 help to frame the discussion a little bit at the beginning,
11:19:04 just to sort of put us into some context of where we are,
11:19:08 and what our role is going to be today.
11:19:11 When we originally approved these cameras over the summer,
11:19:15 the transcript is very, very clear that we did so on an
11:19:20 emergency basis, because the vote had to be taken that day,
11:19:24 it could not even wait till the next council meeting, and we
11:19:28 also did so, and almost all of the council members
11:19:33 individually spoke to this issue at the time.
11:19:35 We did so with a very, very clear reservation regarding what
11:19:40 the use of the cameras was going to be going forward.
11:19:44 And if you go back to the original transcript, both Chief
11:19:48 Castor and Mr. Shimberg assured us that when we came back we
11:19:52 would have this ability to weigh in on what the go-forward
11:19:57 uses of the camera would be, and if need be pass an
11:20:01 ordinance to govern the use of the cameras.
11:20:05 Like Councilwoman Montelione mentioned, I believe most of us
11:20:08 have availed themselves of the opportunity to go to the
11:20:11 police department and have a demonstration of the way that
11:20:15 the cameras are currently set up.
11:20:18 And they are configured now, in my understanding, the same
11:20:23 exact way that they were for the Republican national
11:20:27 convention, which means that for all 60 or so of the cameras
11:20:32 are focused on the downtown area.
11:20:36 Councilwoman Montelione was correct that any movement of
11:20:40 those cameras involves more than just moving the cameras.
11:20:44 It involves moving the communications network, and it will
11:20:48 cost money.
11:20:49 So we need to be aware of the fact that there is a cost
11:20:52 associated with our input as to where the cameras should go.
11:21:02 There has been a fairly robust public discussion over the
11:21:04 past couple of weeks about the appropriateness of having --
11:21:10 >> (From the audience) Listen, I didn't know --
11:21:13 >> You're out of order.
11:21:15 You're out of order.
11:21:16 You're out of order.
11:21:18 Thank you very much for your kind remarks.
11:21:21 Thank you very much for your kind remarks.
11:21:23 I appreciate your kind remarks.
11:21:26 Thank you very much.
11:21:26 Thank you.
11:21:28 Thank you very much.
11:21:29 I'm not telling you to go to jail.
11:21:33 I'm sorry for the interruption.
11:21:34 I apologize to each and every one of you.
11:21:37 Let's continue, please.
11:21:38 >>HARRY COHEN: So the question before we were interrupted
11:21:46 had to do with the location of the cameras, and discussion
11:21:49 about moving them.
11:21:50 And as I was saying, there has been, as you can see from the
11:21:54 outbursts that we just heard, there's been be a very robust
11:21:58 public discussion about what is the appropriate use of these
11:22:01 And I know that all of my colleagues are going to weigh in
11:22:04 on that today.
11:22:05 I wanted to start out the discussion by saying that the
11:22:10 balance between public safety and people's freedom to walk
11:22:16 around unencumbered and not observed is a very high
11:22:23 Constitutional question, and it is one that has competing,
11:22:31 compelling interests against one another.
11:22:33 It's my view while some cameras downtown may in fact be
11:22:36 appropriate, there are a lot of different things that we
11:22:38 ought to look at in terms of the deployment of the cameras
11:22:41 on a permanent basis.
11:22:43 I know that Mr. Reddick made some comments to the newspaper
11:22:47 about some ideas for uses that he had.
11:22:50 I will let him address those.
11:22:52 But I thought his ideas were very good.
11:22:54 In my particular case, I would like to see us do a study and
11:22:59 loon at whether or not city-owned parking garages and
11:23:03 parking lots adjacent to city parks are safe, whether they
11:23:07 are illuminated, and whether or not we can deploy some of
11:23:12 these cameras to protect people that are using city assets
11:23:15 where they have an expectation of heightened security.
11:23:18 To me, that would be a very appropriate use for the cameras.
11:23:22 A second concern that I would like to see raised when we are
11:23:26 talking about any cameras that are deployed in the downtown
11:23:29 area or in any pedestrian area is whether or not they are
11:23:33 primarily focused on intersections and traffic or whether or
11:23:38 not they are designed to actually observe people.
11:23:41 From what I could see yesterday, from what I was shown by
11:23:43 the police department, most of the cameras deployed downtown
11:23:48 are actually looking at fairly large intersections.
11:23:50 And in realtime, they can get very, very close to someone.
11:23:54 But when they are observed in a recorded status, as they
11:23:58 almost always are, because they are not monitored in
11:24:00 realtime, the ability to actually see someone clearly is
11:24:04 much blurrier, and in fact they cannot even zoom in and
11:24:09 focus directly on a license plate.
11:24:11 So I think it's important to understand what they can do,
11:24:13 what they can't do, what is the true privacy concern, and
11:24:17 what is not.
11:24:19 And then, finally, there is the issue of the money.
11:24:22 My understanding is that the major cost to the cameras as
11:24:27 Councilwoman Montelione mentioned is included in the
11:24:30 contract for the next year.
11:24:32 But beyond that it will be up to us, year after year, to
11:24:35 approve the contract for the maintenance.
11:24:38 And in my view, the reason that City Council has a role in
11:24:46 determining where the cameras do or don't go is because a
11:24:49 year from now, when we come back to look at the maintenance
11:24:52 agreement, we are going to have to evaluate where they were
11:24:54 placed, whether or not they made sense, whether or not they
11:24:57 were productive, or they were a waste of money.
11:25:04 So those are some of the issues that I would like to see
11:25:07 addressed today.
11:25:08 I am very skeptical that all 60 cameras should be deployed
11:25:13 in the downtown area.
11:25:14 I think as Councilwoman Montelione mentioned, crime is low.
11:25:22 And where there isn't a need, I would like to see us look
11:25:26 into some areas that might have more of a need.
11:25:29 I would, however, be willing to accept son deployment of
11:25:32 cameras downtown if there are facts to back up why they
11:25:37 should be on those specific street corners.
11:25:38 That's my initial statement about it.
11:25:40 And I want to listen to what everyone else has to say.
11:25:44 And then we can all follow up.
11:25:45 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:25:48 I have a lot to say but I want to hear from the public
11:25:52 So I would like a motion that we allow the public to speak.
11:25:57 Since we are now almost an hour and a half from the time
11:25:59 certain of this.
11:26:00 And we don't have anyone from the administration here to
11:26:05 answer anyone's questions.
11:26:06 So my question -- thank you for coming, police department,
11:26:12 but we need someone -- we need either a city attorney or
11:26:16 Chief Castor or the chief of staff here to answer these very
11:26:19 important questions.
11:26:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand, but let me state in the
11:26:27 beginning that the rules call for me to have these
11:26:29 workshops, and after the workshop, the public, because they
11:26:35 haven't heard what we discussed --
11:26:36 >> I move to waive the rule.
11:26:39 >> Second.
11:26:40 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I haven't heard from three council
11:26:42 members yet.
11:26:42 So if you want that motion, we have a motion by Ms. Mulhern,
11:26:46 a second by Mrs. Montelione.
11:26:48 All in favor of the motion to waive the rules on this, allow
11:26:50 the public to speak before council speaks, please signify by
11:26:53 saying aye.
11:26:55 Opposed nay.
11:26:58 Motion fails 4-3 if I can count.
11:27:05 Let's take a roll call vote.
11:27:07 I want to make sure the record is clear.
11:27:08 Roll call vote on the motion to waive the rules.
11:27:12 Motion made by Mrs. Montelione.
11:27:14 Seconded by Mrs. Mulhern.
11:27:15 >>MARY MULHERN: The reverse.
11:27:19 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm sorry.
11:27:20 Seconded by Mrs. Montelione.
11:27:22 I apologize to both of you.
11:27:25 Mr. Cohen?
11:27:28 >> Are we doing voice?
11:27:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Voice.
11:27:37 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I am going to vote no Ba it's because the
11:27:39 public has a chance afterwards, and we can question and they
11:27:41 can question us, and we can question them after they hear
11:27:46 from us.
11:27:47 >>FRANK REDDICK: The only reason I'm voting, people have
11:27:54 been sitting out there a long time.
11:27:55 And some have an obligation and listen to us chat all
11:28:04 So we need to get them to at least go back to their jobs or
11:28:08 whatever they have got to do and then we can move forward.
11:28:11 But if we have the time certain, I would see letting us all
11:28:18 But these people have obligations.
11:28:22 And I don't think we need our chatter all morning for
11:28:25 another hour.
11:28:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand and I appreciate all your
11:28:28 But let me tell you this happens every week.
11:28:31 This is not something new.
11:28:32 It happens every week that we cannot keep to the calendar
11:28:35 because there are things we can't control.
11:28:38 But we go on, we take a vote again on the motion by Ms.
11:28:41 Mulhern, second by Mrs. Montelione.
11:28:43 All in favor of the motion that was made, please signify and
11:28:46 state the motion again, please.
11:28:48 >>THE CLERK: The motion is to waive the rules.
11:28:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Waive the rules, to allow the public to
11:28:55 speak before this is heard.
11:28:56 All in favor of the motion?
11:29:01 So --
11:29:05 >> 4 to 3.
11:29:06 >> Okay, we continue.
11:29:07 Mr. Reddick, you have the floor.
11:29:09 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:29:12 And before I start, I think you know when we get to the new
11:29:18 business, I am going to put a motion into place that we have
11:29:24 these discussions, that we have a limit on the comments that
11:29:28 council makes, put a time limit on them, because we sit here
11:29:32 and talk for five, ten minutes, and that's why we get behind
11:29:38 so many days.
11:29:40 We need to put a time limit on ourselves.
11:29:42 And so I will be putting a motion in place understood new
11:29:46 business to occur -- curtail our conversations.
11:29:53 With the cameras -- and I have been one of those who made my
11:29:56 position known -- quite well -- and that subpoena I
11:30:00 understand there are 63-plus cameras throughout this city
11:30:05 for the RNC.
11:30:06 And I understand the mayor's' position where he stated that
11:30:12 he wants to see those cameras stay in downtown.
11:30:16 I understand the mayor makes the final decision, publicly
11:30:22 it's his decision.
11:30:23 But I understand what Mr. Cohen stated that we have an
11:30:28 obligation with the maintenance contract a year from now.
11:30:31 And we should have some input.
11:30:34 I just want to say this.
11:30:37 I had a chance to have my staff contact 98% of the
11:30:42 neighborhoods, association presidents in my district.
11:30:47 95% responded by saying they want to see some form of camera
11:30:54 in their community.
11:30:56 And here is the reason why.
11:30:58 When I look at the report from solid waste, the top ten
11:31:05 illegal dump sites in the City of Tampa are in my district.
11:31:12 Seven out of the ten.
11:31:15 North 18th street and woods street in Sulphur Springs.
11:31:23 Sulphur Springs, district 5.
11:31:26 37th street between east Hillsborough and Diana.
11:31:31 District 5.
11:31:32 Wood and Perry.
11:31:34 You go down east Lake Avenue and 37th street.
11:31:38 District 5.
11:31:39 East Lake Avenue, north 38th street, district 5.
11:31:44 East 36th street and 3rd Avenue, district 5.
11:31:48 3300 block of Clark Avenue, district 5.
11:31:53 7 out of the 10 are in district 5 where there's a high
11:31:57 concentration of illegal dumping, dumping activity.
11:32:01 And that's a disgrace.
11:32:04 And that puts the burden and responsibility on the
11:32:07 sanitation department to go out there and try to remove
11:32:11 debris and on the side of the road, and I think it's not
11:32:16 only a public safety issue, it's a health issue, because
11:32:19 when you are dumping sofas, mattress, tires and all this
11:32:23 stuff on the side of the road, people are walking, I don't
11:32:25 know what germs or what's from those debris placed on the
11:32:32 side of the road.
11:32:33 When you look at certain areas in town, you take Grant Park,
11:32:38 Sulphur Springs, take portions of East Tampa, crime might be
11:32:41 down in some areas, but there's a high concentration of
11:32:44 crime in certain areas of this city.
11:32:48 And I think if you are going to address those issues, we
11:32:54 have got to eliminate some of this crime and high
11:32:57 concentration areas, and these neighborhoods, the
11:33:00 association presidents have told me, they are tired of
11:33:03 living in fear.
11:33:04 And I understand that we hear about the crime rate is down
11:33:08 in the City of Tampa.
11:33:11 It might be in some areas.
11:33:12 But the areas that I travel to, it's not.
11:33:19 It's still high.
11:33:21 The areas that I travel to every day, there's still garbage
11:33:26 and trash on the side of the road.
11:33:30 In East Tampa you have one person, environmental detectives.
11:33:39 We have an experiment.
11:33:39 We have two a.m. cameras, and most people don't know that in
11:33:43 East Tampa, that are being utilized by the detectives to try
11:33:49 to put a damper on the illegal dumping.
11:33:52 One camera is broke.
11:33:54 And they are trying to fix and repair that camera.
11:34:01 And you have one person trying to cover a whole seven and a
11:34:03 half mile radius with one officer, one detective.
11:34:08 And he can't do the job.
11:34:10 You go to West Tampa.
11:34:22 You go to the alleyway where people live, whose
11:34:26 responsibility is it to go and remove that stuff?
11:34:28 So we have a serious problem in certain areas of town.
11:34:33 You go to Palmetto Beach.
11:34:37 Everybody reads in the paper, they are proud to have a
11:34:41 designated historic district.
11:34:44 How can you have a historic district where he you are in one
11:34:47 of the top ten with illegal dumping problem in that
11:34:54 What's historic about dumping?
11:34:55 What's historic about having that trash debris build up in
11:34:58 your neighborhood?
11:35:00 So we have an opportunity -- and even though those cameras
11:35:06 are in place, and the mayor has stated a lot of them remain
11:35:14 downtown, those cameras are purchased by taxpayer dollars.
11:35:18 And the taxpayers in other areas of the community deserve to
11:35:21 have equal share as the people that live in Channelside and
11:35:25 people that live and work on Franklin Street, Whiting Street
11:35:27 and all these streets downtown.
11:35:33 They deserve the same equal protection and equal rights.
11:35:36 So place them on Curtis Hixon park, place them on buildings
11:35:42 throughout this downtown area, is not equal to -- equal
11:35:48 share to other taxpayers who spend their tax dollars to help
11:35:53 purchase those cameras.
11:35:54 And so we are going to -- and I have had a brief
11:36:00 conversation with the mayor about this.
11:36:02 And one thing he stated he will deliver, and if that's what
11:36:07 it takes for him to listen and understand, that we have got
11:36:11 serious problems in other areas of this community.
11:36:14 And a lot of residents, you know, I understand people don't
11:36:17 want to have cameras.
11:36:19 They look at cameras as though it's a bad reflection because
11:36:25 they think they are violating your privacy, your personal
11:36:33 To have a chance like the rest of you to go to TPD and look
11:36:39 at the cameras.
11:36:40 And there's only certain Heights they can reach.
11:36:42 It's not like they are going to be sitting on top of your
11:36:45 roof looking down on your bedroom.
11:36:47 If you close your blinds nobody is going to look at you
11:36:51 So the problem is, I think for the public venue and health
11:36:55 issues that happens in some communities, in this city, these
11:37:02 people deserve to have -- to track cheaters, because people
11:37:11 who are dumping in these communities are not the people that
11:37:13 live in there.
11:37:15 It's the people that heir coming in there 2:00, 3:00, 4:00
11:37:17 in the morning, dumping this trash in these communities.
11:37:23 And it's a shame that this is being allowed and no one is
11:37:28 everyone being caught.
11:37:30 And if you look at East Tampa, one environmental detective,
11:37:33 the number of people that everybody arrested that dump in
11:37:37 that community, that one detective, when he went in, was
11:37:41 able to go in and do fingerprinting process because they
11:37:45 were dumb enough not to put gloves on and go dump this stuff
11:37:49 and pick up fingerprints, and they have arrested people.
11:37:53 So here is a deterrent with that camera, that they got
11:37:57 And a lot of people than might come up here and complain
11:38:01 about a camera, they don't know the cameras in East Tampa
11:38:07 the past two years and they have been catching peoples.
11:38:11 Now we have an opportunity to explore these other
11:38:15 opportunities for these cameras.
11:38:17 And I think if we are going to do it -- and I hope the mayor
11:38:24 will be wise enough to understand that the people in these
11:38:28 communities, that I have identified, pay taxes, as well as
11:38:33 the people downtown, and they deserve to have the
11:38:37 opportunity to share in what they already paid.
11:38:42 They paid for these cameras and they deserve a share and the
11:38:45 benefit of having these cameras.
11:38:47 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:38:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Reddick.
11:38:49 Council members, Mr. Suarez, Ms. Capin.
11:38:54 Mr. Suarez.
11:38:54 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.
11:39:06 What's the cost to maintain an individual cam ref?
11:39:09 Do you have estimates?
11:39:10 >> I have the estimates for the whole system.
11:39:11 The first year is estimated, industry standards usually have
11:39:14 a 12 to 14%.
11:39:17 The number we were quoted when we put the RFP out was about
11:39:21 186,000 which equates to about it% for the first year.
11:39:24 >> Let me interrupt you.
11:39:27 1 6 threw for how many cameras?
11:39:28 >> For the total amount of cameras which are 58 movable --
11:39:35 the ones that move around. We have 26.
11:39:37 And then we also have some on our police buildings,
11:39:41 additional 25.
11:39:41 >> So let's do the math.
11:39:44 About --
11:39:45 >> It's about --
11:39:51 >>MIKE SUAREZ: 115, right 9/11 go ahead.
11:39:53 >> And as the cameras get older the costs usually go up
11:39:57 because of the technology and the age of the equipment.
11:40:00 So the first year, that's what we were quoted.
11:40:05 And the second year and third year beyond that will probably
11:40:07 go up.
11:40:08 >> So the cost goes down exponentially every year.
11:40:11 >> It goes up.
11:40:12 >> I mean goes up because it's getting older.
11:40:14 Does that include software patches?
11:40:16 >> Yes, that total I gave you was for software patches for
11:40:21 Usually software is about $25,000.
11:40:23 And then the cameras themselves would be about 165.
11:40:28 >> And as I understand the technology of our cameras we have
11:40:31 to have a line of sight in order to essentially mesh them
11:40:34 together, correct?
11:40:37 >> Yes.
11:40:38 The wireless system is a wireless mesh system and it is a
11:40:41 line of sight.
11:40:42 You can move the site if there's a building in the way, that
11:40:45 has to be worked around with the camera system, but, yes, it
11:40:48 is a line of sight.
11:40:49 And then where you put your cameras inside that mesh so it
11:40:52 can send the transmission back.
11:40:53 >> What would the cost of installing cameras in a different
11:40:56 location other than where they are at?
11:40:58 Because obviously because of the communication portion of
11:41:00 it, there is a real cost to that.
11:41:02 What would that be, do you know?
11:41:04 Or even an estimate?
11:41:06 >> We get asked an incredible load of questions.
11:41:10 It all depends on where we put it.
11:41:12 If we are necessary the mesh it's going to cost
11:41:15 significantly lower but if we go to a different area, to
11:41:18 build out another mesh and then direct it back to downtown,
11:41:21 the cost can go up.
11:41:22 But just to give you some ideas, we did break it down a
11:41:25 little bit.
11:41:26 The camera in the housing unit is about $6,000 apiece.
11:41:29 The radio and licensing is about 8,000 for the camera.
11:41:34 Those can be repositioned if that's the wishes.
11:41:37 But then we get into different topics.
11:41:41 If you are going to put it in another area, you have to put
11:41:44 in a pole that's 10,000.
11:41:45 Then add electric to the pole, an additional 3,000.
11:41:48 And then the network support, that's the building at the
11:41:52 mesh, that has to be analyzed and has to be configured to
11:41:56 see what the cost will be.
11:41:58 Sometimes it's way below the cost if you are near a fire
11:42:00 house, then send the mesh back to be a city network
11:42:03 connection and then bring it back over.
11:42:06 But that's all depending on where we want to put it.
11:42:08 >>MIKE SUAREZ: In terms of these cameras that are being
11:42:12 used now, or not being used now because they were turned off
11:42:17 after the RNC for recording and surveillance --
11:42:21 >> They are not monitored.
11:42:22 >> They are not monitored currently.
11:42:24 During the RNC, how much did we keep in terms of
11:42:28 surveillance tape, and specific cameras?
11:42:31 >> The system -- we are going to keep those videos for four
11:42:37 That was for the RNC.
11:42:38 After the RNC -- and that's what we are doing now, some of
11:42:40 the clean-up -- we are not going to hold onto the videos.
11:42:43 Anything we record further, that was for the RNC due to the
11:42:46 whole litigation process of the RNC Republican National
11:42:50 Normally it's around 30 days.
11:42:52 And that will be wrote over and then save that space and
11:42:55 reuse it so you keep it preserved for about 30 days.
11:42:58 And in that 30 days if there's anything you need to burn to
11:43:01 a CD or something, a hard copy, then you would identify it.
11:43:05 After that 30 days usually that video will be gone.
11:43:07 >> And we are keeping it for four years for litigation and
11:43:11 liability purposes?
11:43:11 >> Fourth RNC, yes.
11:43:13 >> Thank you, captain.
11:43:15 I would like to make a statement about what is going on
11:43:17 I find it unconscionable that we do not have someone
11:43:20 representing the city attorney's office here, and I
11:43:25 shouldn't say Mr. Territo because he is a member of the
11:43:28 legal department but he is not the one who was here
11:43:31 previously stating what we were going to do in terms of an
11:43:37 I look at the transcript from when we had this discussion.
11:43:41 The entire discussion was about why we have it come up to us
11:43:46 as a walk-on amendment meaning that it came to us quickly.
11:43:49 We understood the reason why because the RFP had been redone
11:43:54 in order for us to get it at that time and we needed time to
11:43:57 put the cameras in place.
11:43:58 Then the second issue that came up had to do with what was
11:44:02 going to happen to the cameras after the RNC.
11:44:04 It was specific discussion.
11:44:06 It was well played out and well discussed by the members of
11:44:10 this council.
11:44:12 I'm going to quote from the transcript.
11:44:18 Mrs. Montelione made a comment about a draft ordinance for
11:44:19 the regulation, and use of the cameras.
11:44:21 Mr. Shimberg, our city attorney, he said that he thought
11:44:24 there were a lot of issues that involved the use of the
11:44:26 cameras after the convention, financial and other things.
11:44:28 And so I don't think we are necessarily in a position to
11:44:31 prepare an ordinance on that rate now.
11:44:32 And he said, myself, Chief Castor, the administration, can
11:44:37 come back with a report after the RNC after we have done all
11:44:42 the research and figured out financially and otherwise what
11:44:44 we proposed the cameras be used for going forward.
11:44:48 Then you can weigh in.
11:44:49 At least literally what he was saying was they would be here
11:44:52 to discuss this.
11:44:53 And they are not.
11:44:55 And again, I find it unconscionable that someone would make
11:44:58 a comment on the record in front of council, in front of the
11:45:01 television cameras, and not be here to discuss it when they
11:45:04 knew we were going to discuss this today.
11:45:07 Part of the problem with the cameras that I had is it could
11:45:11 be overkill now.
11:45:12 Part of the reason why I voted in favor of the cameras is to
11:45:15 make sure that those protestors, those folks that were
11:45:18 coming here, to be part of the RNC convention, were going to
11:45:22 be safe.
11:45:23 They sold it to us as a way to keep downtown safe because of
11:45:27 the numbers of people that were need would be here.
11:45:31 Obviously that didn't materialize for a lot of different
11:45:33 But we did have been a terrific record from this RNC, and
11:45:38 I'm very proud of what we did.
11:45:39 Now that we have about 365 cameras in downtown Tampa, do we
11:45:44 still need those 65 cameras?
11:45:46 Yes, we purchased them.
11:45:47 Yes, it does have a cost to maintain them.
11:45:50 And yes, we should keep them.
11:45:52 But should they still in downtown Tampa?
11:45:57 Should they be in other parts of the city?
11:45:59 Mr. Reddick said it very eloquently in terms of the amount
11:46:02 of illegal dumping that's out in the East Tampa area.
11:46:05 I know because I go to East Tampa almost every day.
11:46:09 I have of a child that goes to school at William program
11:46:13 right down the street from Williams park, and there is an
11:46:16 empty lot across the street from the school, and it is
11:46:19 constantly, either the fence has been torn down and there's
11:46:23 illegal dumping on that lot, and I know Mr. Reddick knows
11:46:26 What has happened is we have lost -- I'm losing faith in the
11:46:30 administration in terms of what they say and what they are
11:46:33 going to do.
11:46:35 And I wish that Mr. Shimberg was here so we could have a
11:46:38 discussion about it.
11:46:39 Right now, it becomes an echo chamber because no one is here
11:46:42 to answer for what they said previously.
11:46:45 And for me, I think that we ought to come forward.
11:46:48 And I think we should look at how -- what procedures are put
11:46:53 in place in order to give some comfort to people of that
11:46:59 know those cameras are out there.
11:47:02 One suggestion that was made, believe it or not made by
11:47:05 someone in the police department -- is to have a Web site up
11:47:07 and running with those cameras with it blacked out -- I
11:47:12 should say going to be delayed every ten minutes or so.
11:47:14 So that way, we know exactly what they are looking at.
11:47:17 Because the problem is that when you have those type of
11:47:19 cameras -- and they are good cameras but they are not facial
11:47:22 recognition or heat -- heat sensitive, thank you.
11:47:34 And for me, the way I look at it is, we have to make sure
11:47:37 those people that are looking at those cameras are doing the
11:47:39 right thing, that they are not looking at things they should
11:47:41 be looking at, they are not pointing the cameras in places
11:47:44 where they shouldn't be pointing.
11:47:45 And thirdly, I think that it gives more comfort that someone
11:47:49 can go online, can see where those cameras are pointed at
11:47:52 any one time during a 24-hour period and at least know that
11:47:56 that camera is not pointing that out toward something that
11:47:59 is private, something that should not be surveilled, or
11:48:04 something that is, in my mind, maybe even illegal.
11:48:10 So I would hope that this administration will come back to
11:48:12 us and give us a definitive answer on some of those uses.
11:48:16 Because I'm talking about it here, as we have done
11:48:19 significantly over the course of the last eight to ten
11:48:24 They should be able to answer for what they have said
11:48:27 And if they do not speak for the administration they should
11:48:32 say so and say only one person is in charge, the mayor, city
11:48:35 attorney, the Chief Castor, whoever it is, I think they
11:48:38 should answer for whatever it is we have to ask.
11:48:40 That's all I have, Mr. Chair.
11:48:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Capin, you want the floor?
11:48:46 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes. Thank you.
11:48:47 By the way, I am going to support the time limit, because we
11:48:53 go over because people -- if you will look back at
11:48:57 transcripts, rarely would you see me speaking more than five
11:49:00 minutes ever.
11:49:04 [ Laughter ]
11:49:06 Look back at the transcript.
11:49:10 You think it's so funny, Mrs. Montelione.
11:49:12 Lord have mercy.
11:49:14 The reason I say that is because the reason you're waiting
11:49:18 is because we just -- what we just went through right now.
11:49:23 What I am going to say is here, we purchased with $1.99
11:49:30 million 115 cameras. Is that correct? 115.
11:49:34 That's the number I was given yesterday.
11:49:37 >> We have 78 cameras outside.
11:49:41 We have 25 on the building.
11:49:43 And then we have port beings.
11:49:45 And on the portable units, the ones that can be deployed on
11:49:48 trailers, there's about 15 cameras.
11:49:50 When you add that up it probably comes up to about --
11:49:54 >> Right.
11:49:55 I have 16 mobile deployable, 68 PTL, 26 cameras, I have five
11:50:05 trailer cameras, one mobile command center that's on a
11:50:10 trailer, and 21 police station security.
11:50:14 That's the number I have.
11:50:16 That's 126.
11:50:17 But 115 were purchased with a $1.99 million.
11:50:25 I also saw where the cameras could not, you know, really,
11:50:29 when after what I understand that after 30 days there's
11:50:36 -- overwriting.
11:50:37 It's no longer there.
11:50:38 But you can, like every other camera, you can go back within
11:50:42 those 30 days and take a photo.
11:50:46 >> You can actually burn the video or you can snap a photo.
11:50:50 >> Right.
11:50:51 So you can keep that record.
11:50:52 >> You can, if there's like a robbery and we need to take a
11:50:56 picture of the subject from it, we can take a picture.
11:50:58 >> Within those 30 days.
11:50:59 After the 30 days you can't.
11:51:01 >> After the 30 days it goes away.
11:51:03 >> Okay.
11:51:04 The other thing is, question I look at cameras, and we know
11:51:10 that they are everywhere.
11:51:11 Cameras are everywhere.
11:51:13 They are in private parking lots.
11:51:14 They are in malls.
11:51:16 They are in elevators.
11:51:17 They are everywhere.
11:51:20 I think that it's in the hands of public, if we are going to
11:51:25 have cameras, is where it should be because there are
11:51:28 regulations when it comes to public.
11:51:31 In private property, there are no regulations.
11:51:34 That is one of the things that we must understand.
11:51:38 One of the other things is, I looked at -- and this is in
11:51:43 Mr. Reddick's district, which is my district.
11:51:45 My district is the entire city, was looking at Ybor City,
11:51:51 because there are cameras there on 7th Avenue.
11:51:54 I believe there's 12, and eight are operational right now.
11:51:57 >> There's 12 --
11:52:01 >> One of the questions I have, and maybe clarify this.
11:52:06 To move cameras to streets on than 7th, either north or
11:52:10 south of 7th where there is high crime, we could use the
11:52:16 infrastructure that's on 7th to deploy those cameras at
11:52:21 a lesser cost to us.
11:52:25 >> It's possible.
11:52:26 I don't know exactly, those cameras were put in a long time
11:52:30 That infrastructure is there on 7th Avenue.
11:52:32 But that is an independent system, that you can tie them
11:52:37 >> You can tie them together.
11:52:38 And that is a place where they are at right now.
11:52:41 And we just had last week, a couple of weeks ago, a shooting
11:52:48 there and a death.
11:52:50 And this is a very high concern to us.
11:52:53 It is a historic -- national historic district.
11:52:55 And we need -- my main -- when I talked about moving them, I
11:53:02 wanted to see where would be the most cost effective.
11:53:05 And since those cameras were on 7th, I thought that
11:53:08 would be the place.
11:53:09 Again, I will be supporting that limit.
11:53:12 And thank you.
11:53:13 How much time did I speak, ma'am?
11:53:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let's go -- all right.
11:53:20 Listen, if we are going to go to everybody what they speak,
11:53:23 I am going to order $100,000 equipment so it turns off the
11:53:29 And we put facial cameras on us with time limits like they
11:53:33 do on the TV cameras: I don't want to do that.
11:53:35 Let's get adult here and keep going forward.
11:53:38 Any other council member who has not spoke, Ms. Mulhern?
11:53:42 >> I just wanted to ask TPD if you are going to say -- I
11:53:45 would like to reserve everything I have to say till after we
11:53:49 hear from the public.
11:53:49 But I have -- I might have questions for you.
11:53:52 So are you going to be here through the whole public?
11:53:55 You will?
11:53:56 Thank you.
11:53:57 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say this.
11:54:02 Therein was indications of cost of $10,000 and 3,000 for
11:54:06 electrical wiring.
11:54:07 Is that what we are paying now for the cameras downtown or
11:54:10 is that gratis?
11:54:11 How is than?
11:54:12 >> Ray, Tampa Police Department.
11:54:19 Camera system downtown is designed to be as cost effective
11:54:22 as we can make it so we utilize existing city poles for the
11:54:25 most part to mount the cameras and city properties.
11:54:30 The convention center, Curtis Hixon park, the port was kind
11:54:34 enough to allow it, and now on some of the structures there
11:54:37 as was the Tampa Bay history center.
11:54:39 So that did mitigate a lot of those costs.
11:54:41 We did have immediate for cameras in certain places where we
11:54:44 weren't able to mount to an existing structure so we did
11:54:46 have to erect, I believe, it was seven poles in various
11:54:52 That's an average cost for construction Post.
11:54:57 >> So we paid for those seven Posts ten grand each? Is that
11:55:00 what you are saying?
11:55:01 >> More or less.
11:55:02 >> But we paid it, the city, for the RNC.
11:55:04 >> The RNC fund paid for it.
11:55:06 >> So that's ten grand plus 3,000 in setting up of the
11:55:10 equipment for the transmission lines.
11:55:13 So, in other words, if we were to put them in an area where
11:55:17 there's dumping, two or three cameras would do that in that
11:55:22 grid to catch the illegal dumping, I assume.
11:55:25 I don't know what.
11:55:25 If you look at the cost of the poles and the cost of the
11:55:29 transmission and equipment for the integrated system to
11:55:33 work, and you look at the cost of what the illegal dumpsters
11:55:38 cost the city, I guarantee you, it would be prudent to put
11:55:41 the poles up in those areas.
11:55:45 And then there were statements made, the cameras are up.
11:55:49 They are not monitored.
11:55:52 That's a great statement.
11:55:53 But then the next question after that is, if they are not
11:55:55 monitored, are they recorded?
11:55:58 You can still not monitor and record.
11:56:01 I don't know if that's an appropriate question to ask.
11:56:03 But are we recording these cameras that are not monitored?
11:56:07 >> The cameras are recording.
11:56:08 >> They are recording but they are not monitored.
11:56:11 >> That's correct.
11:56:11 >> You have to catch everything that's said.
11:56:16 And in general, do cameras stop crime, or do they catch the
11:56:21 perpetrator, help as a tool to catch the perpetrator who
11:56:25 committed the crime?
11:56:26 >> I believe they move crime.
11:56:31 People that want to commit crimes are going to find places
11:56:34 to commit crime, in my opinion.
11:56:36 I have done this for over 20 years.
11:56:37 And anybody will tell you if you turn on your porch light,
11:56:41 if you harden your target, your home, your parks, your
11:56:44 community, if your community doesn't put up with it, if you
11:56:46 put things in place to deter crime, to make crime solvable,
11:56:51 crime is going to go where it's allowed to go.
11:56:53 So if we put a light up, if we put a camera up, if we put a
11:56:58 cop on the turn corner, here's the he going to protect that
11:57:00 particular location.
11:57:01 So the cameras aren't going to solve the crime problem in
11:57:03 Tampa, the hard work we have been doing for the last ten
11:57:05 years and more is what's solving the problem.
11:57:08 The cameras are just another tool to help us solve the
11:57:11 >> I understand that.
11:57:12 So then from what I heard from the council members prior to
11:57:16 the RNC, and that deadline is one week that we had to have a
11:57:21 special camera, we had to order it and pay for it, we passed
11:57:24 that, and we did all the work that the administration asked
11:57:27 us to do, and worked out very fine for all the taxpayers,
11:57:32 never was it discussed the use of the cameras after the RNC.
11:57:36 Even though council members and this council made it known
11:57:40 that they wanted to know what was going to happen after the
11:57:44 RNC and 30 days after the RNC.
11:57:47 That was never discussed that I know of, or can recall, at
11:57:52 that time.
11:57:53 My question to myself is, did the police department or the
11:57:57 administration ever discuss this among themselves?
11:58:02 >> We have obviously discussed what we can do with those
11:58:04 cameras after the RNC, the same way everybody in this loom
11:58:08 has talked amongst themselves.
11:58:10 How can we best serve this community with the resources that
11:58:12 we have.
11:58:13 Is it a good idea to keep some of these cameras downtown?
11:58:17 We have a large investment in downtown.
11:58:18 It's the showcase for our city for this part of central
11:58:22 I think we can serve the community well by leaving cameras
11:58:26 downtown to serve a particular purpose.
11:58:28 But this as Councilman Reddick said there are other places
11:58:32 we can utilize this technology.
11:58:34 Illegal dumping sites, the Ybor City venue, city parks, city
11:58:38 parking garages, places where the citizens have been a high
11:58:41 expectation of security.
11:58:42 And I think we can deliver it with the equipment we
11:58:45 If it's distributed properly.
11:58:47 >> Does the administration, to your knowledge -- and I
11:58:50 understand we are not here talking to the real top brass.
11:58:54 That includes you and me.
11:58:56 >> Yes, sir.
11:58:57 >> Do you have a plan? Is there a plan?
11:59:01 Has it ever been presented to you?
11:59:02 Is there a plan that you folks have formulated between
11:59:05 yourselves and the mayor's office and everybody concerned?
11:59:08 I don't know of any.
11:59:09 I don't know of any council members that knows of any.
11:59:14 Do we have a plan that says, listen, Weaver so many cameras,
11:59:17 we are going to put X here, five here, two here.
11:59:20 I don't know what I'm talking about because there is no plan
11:59:23 that's been presented to us about the cameras.
11:59:25 It's all before an abstract.
11:59:29 >> It's our understanding the mayor is in position to make
11:59:34 that final decision about the final deployment of the
11:59:39 >> You may know more than we do.
11:59:40 Is that going to be in 30 days or a year?
11:59:43 >> I can't answer.
11:59:44 >> I understand that.
11:59:45 Yes, sir.
11:59:45 >> If I understood the plan, it was to do this together,
11:59:49 with City Council, with the citizens, with the chief and
11:59:53 with the mayor.
11:59:54 Why we are not doing that at this particular moment I can't
11:59:56 tell you.
11:59:57 I'm not privy to those decisions.
11:59:59 But I can tell you that the police department and your mayor
12:00:02 are committed to working with the citizens.
12:00:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: And we appreciate that, and you have done
12:00:07 a fantastic job, not yesterday, not last month but for a
12:00:10 long time.
12:00:11 No one is hear to question your ability and your dedication
12:00:14 to your profession.
12:00:15 None of us are doing that at all.
12:00:16 Whatever I want to know -- I can't speak for we -- where is
12:00:21 the plan? That was asked, you know.
12:00:25 Where is the presidential plan?
12:00:27 You have that debate every you go on.
12:00:29 There's no plan.
12:00:30 There is a plan.
12:00:31 This plan doesn't work.
12:00:32 We don't even have a plan.
12:00:33 >> We don't have a plan because the plan is to be worked out
12:00:36 amongst all of us.
12:00:39 We have been entrusted with making that decision.
12:00:41 We don't have a secret plan that we are not presenting to
12:00:44 The plan in my opinion has yet to be developed.
12:00:48 We have the players here, not all of the players, but my
12:00:50 understanding is the plan is to create a plan together.
12:00:53 We all have good ideas to contribute to be that but that is
12:00:56 the plan.
12:00:56 >> And some of the concerns with the illegal dumping, we do
12:01:00 have the portable trailers that can be deployed anywhere in
12:01:02 the city so we have the ability to use what we have
12:01:04 purchased, and deployed in remote locations, not just in the
12:01:08 downtown area.
12:01:09 The trailers we used originally when we had the RNC, we sent
12:01:13 them over to St. Pete to secure the Tropicana.
12:01:16 So they can be Seth sent to other places.
12:01:18 How many of those do you have?
12:01:19 >> We have five of those trailers.
12:01:21 And each one is equipped with at least three or four
12:01:24 >> I don't nobody if any other council wants to speak.
12:01:27 I know we have heard.
12:01:30 I will go one more round to council and then I really want
12:01:32 to tan the comments from the audience.
12:01:34 But I don't have a plan.
12:01:37 For me to say yes or no.
12:01:40 I can tell you in the past, these things of this great
12:01:43 magnitude have been going on, and those individuals in the
12:01:47 administration have taken it on to the general public, went
12:01:50 to the neighborhood, spoke to neighborhood meetings, said
12:01:53 here what we should do, these things.
12:01:55 It happened when we changed, that we collect, the half penny
12:02:02 sales tax, when former mayor wanted to put it into arts.
12:02:06 That mayor went to responsible to all the communities.
12:02:09 And you know what?
12:02:10 It passed.
12:02:11 And it was changed so the arts could have the benefit out of
12:02:14 And the people than have a better quality of life.
12:02:17 I'm not looking to stop anything that's not right.
12:02:19 And I at least have to know where we are at.
12:02:22 And I yield to Mrs. Montelione and then Mr. Reddick.
12:02:26 >> We need to extend the time.
12:02:28 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We have about three minutes and then
12:02:30 we'll do that.
12:02:33 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I'm going to try.
12:02:37 And I want to thank Mr. Suarez from reading the transcript
12:02:40 the exchange that I had with Mr. Shimberg.
12:02:42 Because I had specifically asked Mr. Shimberg to be here to
12:02:47 either talk about drafting an ordinance.
12:02:49 I had my staff track Mr. Shimberg down.
12:02:52 And apparently he inadvertently scheduled a meeting for
12:02:56 himself, and I believe Mr. Corrada, in Clearwater today.
12:03:01 He says that his name was not on the motion.
12:03:06 So it was not intentional, but he is not here, and he
12:03:13 apologizes to council, and meant no disrespect, but he will
12:03:17 be here are if we continue this item, and he will be
12:03:20 prepared to discuss drafting an ordinance with us at that
12:03:26 So I relayed the message to Mr. Shimberg that it is my error
12:03:33 when I amended Mr. Reddick's motion that I did not
12:03:37 specifically use his name in that motion to be present at
12:03:40 this workshop, but we did have an exchange, it is in the
12:03:43 transcript, and I thought than he would be here.
12:03:46 So that puts that mystery hopefully to rest where he is and
12:03:53 why he isn't here.
12:03:54 I would like to have staff come back next week, and with an
12:04:04 This is a workshop.
12:04:05 Next week is a discussion of council where we would tab
12:04:07 action for you.
12:04:08 >> Than wasn't a motion now.
12:04:16 I said I will make the motion.
12:04:17 That was my intention.
12:04:18 I wasn't making it right now.
12:04:22 And the parking garages and the parking lot, I also agree
12:04:28 with Olympian Reddick on the dumping site.
12:04:32 If the intention is to deter crime, I know detective Estevez
12:04:37 said he will move the crime, dumping will stop on one street
12:04:42 but it will pop up somewhere else.
12:04:46 If we have those cameras that are on the trailer, those are
12:04:50 easily moved.
12:04:51 We don't have to erect poles and that sort of thing.
12:04:54 I think these are all things that we can discuss.
12:04:57 And again, I think -- I agree with Mr. Suarez -- there is
12:05:05 locations downtown and I did ERR, there are actually 162
12:05:11 cameras, us because of the 58 locations of fixed poles there
12:05:14 are multiple cameras on a pole.
12:05:16 So, for instance, the trailer, we have five trailers and two
12:05:19 cameras on each pole.
12:05:20 So three cameras.
12:05:23 So my math is wrong again.
12:05:25 Three cameras on each pole.
12:05:26 So you can do the math.
12:05:28 But I just wanted to lay to rest the miss you try of where
12:05:34 Mr. Shimberg was and why he was not here.
12:05:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You took your three minutes.
12:05:39 I need a council motion.
12:05:40 >>HARRY COHEN: Motion to extend the time for half an hour.
12:05:45 >> Motion to extend for half an hour.
12:05:47 >> We have an additional 30 minutes.
12:05:49 Any other council members on this subject matter before I go
12:05:52 to the public? Okay.
12:05:54 Thank you very much.
12:05:54 General public, please come up one at a time.
12:05:57 Three minutes each.
12:05:57 >> Can I just correct the number of cameras?
12:06:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It doesn't matter how many cameras
12:06:04 whether we have one or 1,000.
12:06:05 I am not going to have a 30 minute debate on two cameras or
12:06:09 >> Pete Johnson, 510 Harrison street.
12:06:12 First of all, I am very surprised that somebody from the
12:06:14 administration is not here.
12:06:17 If the mayor wants these cam ration, he should have someone
12:06:21 Second of all, I have had two experiences with cameras.
12:06:26 One was in V.M. Ybor where a particular house kept getting
12:06:31 broken into because of the proactive enforcement of the
12:06:37 property owner.
12:06:38 In other words, they kept calling the cops on the drug
12:06:42 Cameras were put up, and within one day, that house never
12:06:48 got touched again.
12:06:49 The cameras were down.
12:06:51 That house was never touched again.
12:06:53 I live in a six-story high-rise.
12:06:57 We have 89 cameras for 120 apartments.
12:07:04 That's more than practically the city has.
12:07:07 And I'll tell you what.
12:07:09 It's good.
12:07:11 We have brought a lot -- caught a lot of people destroying
12:07:14 As a matter of fact, the kid who painted the graffiti on the
12:07:19 wall of the chiropractor before the RNC lives in our
12:07:25 You know how we caught him? He was carrying the stencil.
12:07:30 TPD picked him up in a heartbeat.
12:07:34 Cameras are good.
12:07:35 We are in be a society of cameras.
12:07:41 Legally, the only personal privacy that you have is in your
12:07:46 own home.
12:07:48 On your own property.
12:07:50 Once you step off of your property, you are in a public
12:07:56 We had a princess photographed nude, but she was in a
12:08:02 private space.
12:08:04 Now that's against the law. Okay.
12:08:10 But if you are walking down the street, you are on the
12:08:12 sidewalk, you are in a public domain.
12:08:15 You don't have all that many personal rights.
12:08:19 Mr. Reddick, I totally 110% support you.
12:08:24 East Tampa is rivetted with drug, correct me if I am wrong,
12:08:33 progresses Tuesday and illegal dumping.
12:08:35 There are still prostitutes on Nebraska Avenue every single
12:08:38 There are still drug dealers walking up and down this street
12:08:41 in neighborhoods every single night selling drugs.
12:08:47 I'm sorry.
12:08:48 TPD can't do it all.
12:08:50 They need eyes.
12:08:51 And if the citizens aren't able to report it, and stand up
12:08:57 and stand up in court, then we are their eyes.
12:09:02 So I totally 110% support it.
12:09:05 If we can cover a trolley car that's not making any money,
12:09:12 we ought to be able to at least do this for safety.
12:09:15 Thank you.
12:09:17 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:09:18 Next, please.
12:09:18 >> Mark Klutho, 14496 Avenue north Largo. I was probability
12:09:27 on camera more than any person down there at the RNC.
12:09:31 I was downtown more than six hours.
12:09:34 Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.
12:09:37 This is one of the shirts I was wearing.
12:09:41 This was another land of the free, some restrictions apply,
12:09:46 void where prohibited.
12:09:49 This was one living through martial law -- not!
12:09:56 And of course the fourth one, how well it applies, the day
12:10:05 you give up essential liberties to obtain a little liberty
12:10:11 deserves neither liberty or safety.
12:10:13 Ben Franklin, 1759.
12:10:14 Now, there was an article in the paper about the abuse of
12:10:19 these cameras.
12:10:22 And what I saw when ways down there was abuse.
12:10:32 And it was in another form.
12:10:37 The police were down there with vehicles, from golf carts to
12:10:44 these high performance ATVs to police cars to SUVs.
12:10:49 And these things were used for joy riding.
12:10:58 I mean, they were like madmen.
12:11:06 Acting like fools.
12:11:09 Now, this is something that when you look at them in this
12:11:16 capacity, how will they be reacting when they have control
12:11:25 of the cameras?
12:11:29 What was said in that article about other police agencies
12:11:35 and how they were used, I don't know if any of you saw it,
12:11:39 but it wasn't pretty.
12:11:42 I wish I could queue that song from Spirit years ago, 1984.
12:11:51 I don't like it.
12:11:53 You know, when I went into the Army, I took an oath to
12:11:57 uphold the Constitution.
12:12:03 And this is not a pretty scene what we have today.
12:12:08 I was down there, and I had cops that were infiltrating the
12:12:16 marches, there were some benign people?
12:12:25 No, not a pretty picture.
12:12:27 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
12:12:28 Next, please.
12:12:29 >> Heidi Dingman.
12:12:31 I want to for the record, because I am going to run out of
12:12:34 time probably, if there is a safety committee formed within
12:12:38 the City of Tampa, I would be more than happy to be a part
12:12:40 of that.
12:12:43 First who I am and the reason I am here today, I was
12:12:45 brutally attacked in the Ybor garage on August 19th,
12:12:51 I was a businesswoman that you heard had been attempted to
12:12:55 be raped and attempted to be killed.
12:12:58 The perpetrator was charged with attempted murder in the
12:13:01 first degree, aggravated battery, great bodily harm,
12:13:05 attempted sexual battery for causing injury.
12:13:08 I am a businesswoman that parks in parking garages every
12:13:12 single day, whether I am going to approved events,
12:13:16 commercial real estate for women, a chamber event.
12:13:19 There's only garages and parking lots in the City of Tampa.
12:13:22 Most in which I park in the Tampa garages.
12:13:27 I actually did a little bit of research.
12:13:29 I didn't want to get too statistical but this is a three and
12:13:32 a half page rap sheet of the garage that I was attacked in
12:13:36 just within the time of December 2001-ton October 2009.
12:13:41 I agree with a lot of what people have said today that
12:13:44 cameras do not stop crime, but they have been proven to
12:13:49 definitely at least show people that, hey, you are being
12:13:53 I personally do not have a problem with there being cameras
12:13:56 on every single corner.
12:13:58 I'm not doing anything wrong.
12:13:59 So I have no problem with the privacy part of that.
12:14:04 But I do have, you know, a voice for not only people who
12:14:07 have been assaulted, but also for business people in the
12:14:10 City of Tampa.
12:14:13 You know, there's thousands and thousands of spaces in the
12:14:17 parking garages.
12:14:18 I personally think that this is a continuation.
12:14:22 This is a topic that has to continue.
12:14:24 It's not just okay, where should we scramble and put the
12:14:28 cameras? This, I think, should be a start.
12:14:31 Here are the cameras we have.
12:14:32 Let's move strategically some of the cameras that make more
12:14:36 sense than other areas maybe rather than downtown where
12:14:38 there is not a lot of traffic, but let's forget that the
12:14:42 real high traffic crime areas, and then let's move and maybe
12:14:46 next year have a budget for safety and have a committee
12:14:50 talking about let's move forward.
12:14:52 This is not going to be fixed overnight.
12:14:54 This is a discussion that will go on and on.
12:14:57 It's definitely a hot button.
12:14:58 There's kids that walk to school, and they need safety, too.
12:15:02 So I think that, you know, the main thing about this is this
12:15:05 is, I think, a start of what we need to do in the City of
12:15:09 I think Mayor Buckhorn has done a wonderful job, great
12:15:12 energy since he's been in office, in my personal opinion,
12:15:17 and I think instead of talking to tourists about how
12:15:19 wonderful our city is on how pretty and how historical Ybor
12:15:23 is, I think it would be wonderful.
12:15:24 I do marketing for a living.
12:15:26 I think it would be wonderful to be able to market and say,
12:15:29 look, we are not see we have people in place that are
12:15:33 planning on making it safer.
12:15:35 So when you come, we have this in place.
12:15:39 So thank you.
12:15:40 >> Thank you very much.
12:15:41 Appreciate it.
12:15:41 Next, please.
12:15:42 >>> I am Brian Becker, 3107 price Avenue.
12:15:53 The surveillance cameras presented as a gift from the
12:15:56 federal government are of the Trojan horse variety, not only
12:16:02 local but national press have condemned Tampa's police
12:16:08 We need a City Council that upholds its duty of oversight of
12:16:12 government branches and agencies.
12:16:15 There are no answers to too many questions.
12:16:18 Why are cameras not adhered to law? Why do police devoid of
12:16:28 public oversight?
12:16:29 Why the double standard, matters of public policy available
12:16:32 privately, while individuals expecting privacy are to be
12:16:35 surveilled all the time? These cameras required under
12:16:40 assumptions of violent protests occurring.
12:16:43 Why are we now asked to leave ourselves subject to powerful
12:16:48 surveillance where no oversight exists?
12:16:51 Countless reports of illicit government Sur veil answer
12:16:56 surfaced, right here in Tampa Bay, police cameras surveilled
12:16:59 patrons of illegal licenses and single-handedly branded them
12:17:05 criminals and now we are being asked that public safety
12:17:09 under a one-way mirror that we be subjected to humiliation
12:17:12 for being on the wrong end of that virtual police line-up.
12:17:17 And it's not only the public spaces that are being stolen
12:17:20 from us.
12:17:21 We know of those photos taken of celebrities by the stalking
12:17:27 photographers zooming in from a mile away, and we know of
12:17:30 reports of images of passengers empowered by the TSA virtual
12:17:36 search making their way onto the Internet.
12:17:40 When one combines those two aspects, one concludes that
12:17:44 cameras erected on poles 30, 40 feet high, cameras that
12:17:49 someone else be placed exclusively in residential
12:17:52 neighborhoods, those places where no one is visible, but
12:18:00 instead will be forever watched like a Soviet style police
12:18:05 state, cameras able to zoom in like drones despite details
12:18:08 that could call heads or tails on a penny, one concludes
12:18:14 eventually someone will have those straight down the slat of
12:18:20 a bedroom or bedroom window.
12:18:22 The person doing the watching will do so remotely,
12:18:25 Another proposal, filling out public streets to
12:18:30 But look at the history of Facebook systemic incursion into
12:18:35 privacy and into private histories relentlessly amassed.
12:18:39 I urge that you not incur more government debt to maintain
12:18:42 the untenable, unaccountable, monolith.
12:18:48 Thank you.
12:18:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
12:18:50 Next, please.
12:18:50 >>> I'm Ed Tillou.
12:18:58 I'm more concerned about civil liberties issues.
12:19:05 But I'm also concerned about public safety.
12:19:07 And I think here the public safety outweighs the civil
12:19:12 liberties concerns.
12:19:13 A lot of times, people have had an interest in crime, get
12:19:18 involved with civil liberties, because they see that as a
12:19:22 potential asset.
12:19:23 Like Trafficante Junior, his predecessor his co-godfather
12:19:31 was a man named Costello.
12:19:35 The real godfather was Meyer Lansky but he was really an
12:19:43 accountant and he need add right arm.
12:19:45 But Costello was the original one and he picked up on this.
12:19:48 In fact, I think there was a rally in New York and he was
12:19:50 shot at it.
12:19:51 So they had second thoughts about that.
12:20:00 I think it's very bad law enforcement.
12:20:03 I think the real issue is police professionalism.
12:20:05 And that's when civil liberties concern should be directed
12:20:08 rather than cameras that really are a tool.
12:20:11 And one thing that was neglected to be mentioned was these
12:20:15 cameras are needed on the -- some of them on the Hart buses,
12:20:22 but one of the things that's been happening a lot, twice a
12:20:25 week you see a car on the left side of a bus making a turn,
12:20:29 a right turn in front of that bus.
12:20:33 It isn't just about police.
12:20:34 Now this is an accident waiting to happen, a busful of 20 or
12:20:38 30 people.
12:20:39 So the thing is, you have got improper turn and reckless
12:20:44 All you need is two or three buses so equipped and you get
12:20:48 three or four of these people publicized and that will stop.
12:20:54 So there's a place for many, many of these cameras.
12:20:57 As I say, there is potential civil liberties issue.
12:21:01 But if there is police professionalism.
12:21:06 There was very bad police professionalism, for instance, in
12:21:10 There was a crime about two or three blocks from where I was
12:21:12 just out walking, and I got snatched up and brought in on
12:21:16 It almost like keystone cops.
12:21:19 Now, I think we are better than Baltimore, but when you
12:21:25 think big bad law enforcement you think of better law
12:21:28 enforcement like Tampa seems to have.
12:21:30 The only problem as I brought up several times is that a
12:21:34 focus on crime in traffic enforcement.
12:21:38 And people are in jeopardy pedestrians, people in jeopardy
12:21:43 of bicyclists.
12:21:44 Now with respect to the bicyclists, half the time they are
12:21:47 at fault.
12:21:48 And the thing is it got to be enforcement on the bicyclists.
12:21:52 It's riding on the sidewalks, against traffic, all of this
12:21:56 kind of stuff has got to stop.
12:21:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:21:58 Next please.
12:22:00 >>> Good morning.
12:22:04 Chairman Miranda.
12:22:05 Pastor Essie Simms, representing East Tampa Partnership
12:22:07 which is a 7.5 square mile area that Councilman Reddick
12:22:14 oversees as well.
12:22:16 Thanks to coming out to the last partnership meeting.
12:22:19 Sorry for you being put into that frying pan.
12:22:22 When comes to illegal dumping we have a serious issue in
12:22:25 East Tampa.
12:22:26 As Councilman Reddick stated some of our top ten sites are
12:22:31 in East Tampa.
12:22:31 Our neighborhood associations, 17 of them, I get calls on a
12:22:33 daily basis about what are we going to do about illegal
12:22:36 dumping that's happening in our community.
12:22:41 Line our streets for weeks and weeks going by and nothing is
12:22:44 being done.
12:22:45 I'm tasked with many functions.
12:22:46 One public safety, and real life Councilman Reddick, impose
12:22:51 a lot of issues when it comes to health, public safety and
12:22:54 so forth going forward.
12:22:55 Last month, my phone minutes were 7,000.
12:23:00 Because I have these community residents calling me on a
12:23:02 daily basis.
12:23:04 We need to do something about illegal dumping, the crime
12:23:08 that's going on in East Tampa, illegal drug sales.
12:23:11 I welcome you to come ride with me sometime.
12:23:14 At least twice a week, I arrive about 1:00 at night and I go
12:23:19 through the neighborhoods that are ridden with drug
12:23:21 I'm not a Monday morning quarterback.
12:23:27 There's too many of us doing that.
12:23:28 The problem is that we have an opportunity to stop some of
12:23:31 these problems that we are faced with in our community.
12:23:35 And here we have an ability to do so through some of these
12:23:39 I put in a call to Mayor Buckhorn the other day, he obliged
12:23:43 me by calling me back.
12:23:44 He's open to allowing me, looking at allowing East Tampa to
12:23:49 get some of those cameras, so we can address the illegal
12:23:53 dumping situation we have in East Tampa.
12:23:56 From that perspective.
12:23:57 We have an environmental officer that we pay out of TIF
12:24:02 We pay be possibly willing to leverage funds when it comes
12:24:05 to bringing in additional cameras as well.
12:24:09 The camera is down.
12:24:11 But we will be rectifying that.
12:24:13 Councilman Reddick, getting that camera up and running
12:24:17 As I share many of the concerns of people that called me the
12:24:19 other day, cameras have been around for a while.
12:24:23 Now we are not just complaining about it in East Tampa.
12:24:27 If this is going to serve a purpose for the greater good of
12:24:29 all of East Tampa, I stand alone.
12:24:31 And I ask for these cameras to be placed in our community.
12:24:36 Again, we have a lot of proponents than sane we shouldn't
12:24:41 have cameras.
12:24:42 But I encourage them all come out to East Tampa partnership
12:24:46 and voice your concern so as a community we have everybody's
12:24:50 But there are so many neighborhoods in East Tampa that are
12:24:52 living with trash, living with drugs, and someone said a
12:24:55 minute ago, when I step out on lake and 29th, I'm no
12:24:59 longer on my private property.
12:25:01 We have a problem in East Tampa and I hope you all address
12:25:04 that issue.
12:25:05 Thank you very much.
12:25:07 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Next please.
12:25:07 >> Mark proffer, north ninth street, Tampa, Florida 33604.
12:25:14 After seeing the militarization of our city during the
12:25:17 national convention it's come to my attention that we now
12:25:20 confuse social control for public safety.
12:25:25 They are completely different.
12:25:26 Public safety occurs when the needs of people are met.
12:25:29 Public safety creates an environment of trust security and
12:25:33 well-being partly accomplished by police but ultimately by
12:25:35 the meeting of basic needs of the citizens.
12:25:37 Social control occurs when the people are monitored to
12:25:40 prevent behavior outside of normal social norms regardless
12:25:44 of criminality.
12:25:45 And to control the maintenance of safe and class power.
12:25:48 This includes free speech action thanks criticize the
12:25:54 current political discourse.
12:25:56 Social control thrives on mistrust. The extreme extension
12:25:59 of the definition of criminality and unnecessary police
12:26:03 Bob Buckhorn has proven that his vision of the City of Tampa
12:26:07 is a heavily policed Tampa.
12:26:08 His brutal efficiency statement invokes totalitarianism and
12:26:15 the cameras further side with Tampa's paramilitary
12:26:20 organization over the citizenry.
12:26:22 I agree police are an important part of society, but
12:26:26 conditions do not warrant special privilege for the
12:26:28 violation of our privacy.
12:26:30 The 50 million spent during the RNC turned Tampa into a full
12:26:34 scale functional model of Iraq under U.S. occupation.
12:26:39 That we should add to insult by making cameras in the first
12:26:47 place were adjust disgusting.
12:26:48 A police officer stated they would be having a lot of
12:26:54 science with the weapons,
12:26:58 The police culture in America is sick.
12:27:00 The individual in that culture takes on the sick qualities
12:27:03 of that culture, rejected by it and be denied their chosen
12:27:07 This is not the fault of the police officer and the
12:27:10 individual but the fault of the culture that produces them.
12:27:14 We also note that the performance at the RNC, anyone can
12:27:18 function perfectly in a situation where nothing happens.
12:27:23 So I think law enforcement and that culture can have cameras
12:27:27 and protect my civil liberties?
12:27:29 I say no.
12:27:30 If I think that Tampa's government can make a decision based
12:27:32 on the people's needs over the needs of the police, right
12:27:35 now I can say no.
12:27:37 If I believe cameras will reduce correct me if I am wrong
12:27:39 and not just relocate it, I say no.
12:27:42 The more I see the approach to freedom in this country makes