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TAMPA CITY COUNCIL
Thursday, October 4, 2012
9:00 a.m.

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7:57:25AM
8:58:52AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: City Council is called to order.
9:05:40AM The Chair yields to Ms. Mary Mulhern.
9:05:43AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9:05:45AM It's my pleasure to welcome Reverend Phyllis Hunt, senior
9:05:50AM pastor at Metropolitan Community Church of Tampa in Seminole
9:05:53AM Heights to give our invocation.
9:05:57AM >> Let us pray.
9:05:58AM Great spirit of life and love, we give you thanks and praise
9:06:05AM for this day.
9:06:06AM We ask that you impart your wisdom on the decision-making
9:06:12AM that happens in this chamber today.

9:06:15AM We thank you for the gifts of our City Council and for the
9:06:20AM time they put in to guide and make decisions for our great
9:06:26AM city.
9:06:27AM We give you thanks and praise for all the ways in which our
9:06:33AM city works together and our rich diversity, to live in
9:06:40AM harmony with each other.
9:06:42AM Bless our first responders with safety and with guidance.
9:06:46AM Be with us, O God, in our neighborhoods.
9:06:50AM May peace be the gift we offer our neighbors.
9:06:55AM May we continue the great work of living in harmony with
9:07:02AM each other as we celebrate the richness of our city.
9:07:06AM In all that is sacred and holy, we lift this to you, we ask
9:07:11AM O God that you meet us in the places that are too private to
9:07:15AM speak out loud, that you made us both in our grief and our
9:07:19AM joy and you made us on this day, Amen.
9:07:24AM [PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE]
9:07:41AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Roll call?
9:07:42AM [ ROLL CALL ]
9:07:44AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.
9:07:46AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.
9:07:47AM >>MARY MULHERN: Here.
9:07:48AM >>HARRY COHEN: Here.
9:07:50AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.
9:07:52AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay, I need motion for approval of the
9:07:55AM agenda.

9:07:55AM >> So moved.
9:07:56AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mr. Suarez, second by
9:07:59AM Mr. Cohen.
9:08:00AM All in favor of the motion please indicate by saying aye.
9:08:02AM Opposed nay.
9:08:04AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:08:05AM We go to public comments.
9:08:08AM Any item first that's on the agenda, for three minutes,
9:08:11AM anyone care to speak on that.
9:08:12AM Then we go to items off the agenda.
9:08:14AM Also, we do have the 10:00, the time certain at 10:00 has
9:08:20AM been removed.
9:08:20AM So I'll try to address them as they come forth in a timely
9:08:25AM manner and hopefully we can get them done at 10:00.
9:08:28AM But gives us the ability to move things around so we can
9:08:31AM facilitate the needs of the audience.
9:08:33AM Anyone like to speak on any item on the agenda, please come
9:08:36AM forward.
9:08:41AM >> Good morning.
9:08:41AM My name is Yvette Acosta-Macmillan.
9:08:44AM I'm the new attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union
9:08:47AM here in Tampa.
9:08:48AM And I would like to address the issue of the surveillance
9:08:50AM cameras.
9:08:51AM Back in September, the ACLU submitted a letter to the

9:09:00AM members of the chamber, establishing a position that the
9:09:04AM ACLU -- and we're still, we still have the same position at
9:09:08AM this time.
9:09:08AM We believe that the cameras that are currently in downtown
9:09:13AM Tampa that were placed there in anticipation of the
9:09:18AM Republican National Convention, first are unnecessary,
9:09:24AM considering that the crime rate in downtown Tampa is not as
9:09:27AM significant as to merit the number of cameras that are
9:09:31AM currently there.
9:09:32AM Second that the purpose of the cameras, as noted in the
9:09:37AM agenda item when they were approved, was that they were to
9:09:40AM be used during the Republican National Convention.
9:09:44AM It's my understanding that the cameras are still up,
9:09:48AM operational, running, recording and being monitored.
9:09:51AM We would submit that without proper authorization, that that
9:09:59AM should not be happening.
9:10:00AM If the Council is inclined to approve the continued use of
9:10:09AM these cameras, we would request that very strict policies be
9:10:13AM put in place because as they are now, our position is that
9:10:17AM they are invading the privacy of people who walk along the
9:10:21AM public streets and sidewalks of the City of Tampa, minding
9:10:26AM their own business and should, they should not be subject to
9:10:29AM surveillance by the government.
9:10:31AM Again, if you are inclined to continue the use of the
9:10:36AM cameras, then we would request that there be very strict

9:10:39AM policies put in place as to when and where the cameras are
9:10:42AM going to be used, how they are going to be monitored, by
9:10:46AM whom they're going to be monitored.
9:10:47AM How that data is going to be stored.
9:10:49AM Another issue is that the videos taken by those cameras are
9:10:53AM public record.
9:10:54AM Anybody, as you probably are aware, can request public
9:10:59AM records without any explanation or reason for requesting the
9:11:04AM copies.
9:11:04AM I would submit that that would subject the people that are,
9:11:11AM that appear on those videotapes to unwarranted intrusion by
9:11:19AM other private persons who could use those videotapes to
9:11:26AM perhaps harass or in other ways violate their rights.
9:11:32AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
9:11:34AM Anyone else?
9:11:35AM >> I'm sorry, I have a letter for all of you.
9:11:38AM Would you like me to give it to the clerk?
9:11:41AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Just hand it to the clerk, please.
9:11:48AM >> Yes, my name is Mike Pheneger, a retired Army colonel
9:11:53AM living in the greater Tampa area.
9:11:54AM And I'm the president of the ACLU of Florida and I would
9:11:57AM like to get the opportunity to follow up on a few things
9:12:00AM this Yvette mentioned in her opening statement.
9:12:03AM First, there's something inherently creepy about being
9:12:07AM watched all the time while you're going through the daily

9:12:09AM activities of your life.
9:12:11AM The cameras have become so pervasive that we have become
9:12:15AM almost passive in thinking about what's going on.
9:12:19AM It used to be that you could walk down the street, pick your
9:12:22AM nose and you wouldn't have to worry that somebody up there
9:12:25AM on the camera would be actually watching while did you it.
9:12:28AM That is an inherently big problem.
9:12:30AM Several years ago we submitted a public records request
9:12:32AM about the cameras in Ybor City.
9:12:35AM What we found out was that during a five year period, from
9:12:39AM 2003 to 2008, there were 264 public records requests by
9:12:44AM various members of the public for imagery that came from
9:12:47AM those cameras.
9:12:48AM That is the minimum number because we were also told at the
9:12:52AM same time that some of the requests might have been verbal,
9:12:55AM some of the requests might have been lost and so forth.
9:12:57AM These requests came from a wide variety of sources.
9:13:00AM They came from private citizens, some of them were from
9:13:04AM private investigators.
9:13:05AM Some of them were from local law firms.
9:13:08AM Others were from various state, local and federal law
9:13:11AM enforcement agencies.
9:13:12AM So when you take a look at what's going on with the cameras,
9:13:16AM you should note that all of these are in fact public records
9:13:19AM and they could be used for a wide variety of purposes that

9:13:22AM you do not fully understand now and that the mayor does not
9:13:26AM fully understand now in their use.
9:13:28AM The second point I would make is that these cameras are not
9:13:31AM particularly useful in deterring crime.
9:13:34AM What they have found is in some cases they have moved crime
9:13:37AM from one area to another, but they haven't deterred it over
9:13:40AM all.
9:13:41AM There are mega studies that confirm this.
9:13:45AM They are useful looking at surveillance at particular areas.
9:13:48AM And that I think is the area, if you're going to keep
9:13:51AM cameras, what you ought to do is try to secure particular
9:13:54AM facilities in the Tampa area that might be vulnerable to
9:13:57AM various kinds of criminal activity.
9:14:00AM But keep the cameras away from surveilling the general
9:14:02AM public.
9:14:03AM There is a final problem with the steerability of some of
9:14:06AM these cameras.
9:14:07AM The camera is mounted high, can actually be steered in many
9:14:11AM cases and without proper controls, they could be actually
9:14:14AM used to observe inside businesses, inside peoples
9:14:18AM residences, if they happen to be within the area of the
9:14:21AM cameras themselves.
9:14:22AM All of these are things that you all should consider and I
9:14:25AM would repeat, the ACLU opposes the maintenance of these
9:14:29AM cameras by the city.

9:14:31AM But if you are going to maintain them, it is imperative that
9:14:34AM you impose very strict regulations and controls and
9:14:38AM monitoring and oversight of how the cameras are actually
9:14:41AM going to be used.
9:14:42AM Thank you.
9:14:43AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
9:14:44AM Anyone else?
9:14:50AM >> I'm Ed Tillou, 8100 block.
9:15:11AM This is follow-up to something I started at the past
9:15:15AM meeting.
9:15:16AM And it relates tangentally to item three, which is about the
9:15:21AM port authority.
9:15:22AM Increased business to the port authority.
9:15:23AM In other words, the best bad idea kind of thing.
9:15:27AM There's very bad ideas coming from here, like bring these
9:15:32AM people who would squeeze the people in their own country dry
9:15:37AM and then bring them here for the sake of money so they can
9:15:40AM do that to the people here.
9:15:41AM The American labor industry allowed the export of many
9:15:48AM American jobs in the belief that once environmental and
9:15:52AM occupational health standards were employed in those
9:15:55AM countries, they would be a level playing field.
9:15:59AM That's never happened.
9:16:00AM And now to bring those people here.
9:16:02AM But a better idea that the logistics, you just look at a

9:16:07AM map.
9:16:07AM And trade to Cuba, used to always go through Tampa.
9:16:11AM In fact, Tampa was settled through Cuba.
9:16:14AM Should actually have a workshop and bring Professor Mormino
9:16:18AM here.
9:16:18AM Cubans made export with sugar.
9:16:21AM And what happened after Castro took power, you had sugar,
9:16:32AM sugar plantations established near Miami.
9:16:35AM But you also had another thing that I don't -- I didn't make
9:16:38AM an extra of that, but I have it submitted to you.
9:16:43AM That the decrease in the use of sugar, and I'm not a food
9:16:47AM faddist.
9:16:48AM I think sugar is good.
9:16:49AM I think somebody's out there starting some sort of rumors
9:16:52AM like maybe the high fructose corn syrup industry that sugar
9:16:56AM is bad for you, so you have to use Splenda and all these
9:16:59AM things, God knows what they have in them.
9:17:01AM But the thing is, that sugar is a natural product.
9:17:06AM And it mostly came from Cuba.
9:17:09AM A lot comes from Florida now, from Miami and such as that.
9:17:12AM But it has to be replaced.
9:17:15AM You'll all see about 30% of the sugar use in the United
9:17:18AM States has been replaced by high fructose corn syrup.
9:17:23AM Now, that is a form in the, it's 55/45.
9:17:28AM 55% fructose, 45% nuke close.

9:17:33AM There's an excess of fructose.
9:17:35AM That causes be problems to about 30% of the population.
9:17:38AM In other words, 55/45 high fructose corn syrup is a public
9:17:46AM health approximate.
9:17:47AM I have a master's in public health.
9:17:48AM I've been concerned about this a long time.
9:17:50AM There's a form called 42-58 and that isn't used for the
9:17:54AM following reason.
9:17:55AM Fructose is 73% more sweet than regular sugar.
9:18:01AM So, the advantage is there, even though 30% of the people
9:18:07AM have all these problems of fructose malabsorbing.
9:18:12AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
9:18:12AM Anyone else care to speak at this time?
9:18:19AM >> Hi.
9:18:20AM My name is Bailey Riley.
9:18:22AM I'm from the Seminole Heights region of Tampa.
9:18:25AM I actually came to speak on issue 40.
9:18:29AM I just wanted to go over some of the things -- I don't think
9:18:36AM anybody can hear this enough.
9:18:37AM Basically I was going to say that make sure the camera is
9:18:41AM just going to do absolutely nothing except demolition the
9:18:46AM privacy and continue to further enforce the acceptance of
9:18:49AM the surveillance, and I think that's completely unnecessary.
9:18:52AM After reading on the agenda what it was saying, the word
9:18:56AM cost kept coming up.

9:18:58AM And I was kind of really concerning to me because I feel
9:19:01AM like, they're really promoting these cameras are for safety.
9:19:06AM I don't believe that in general anyway.
9:19:08AM I think those are for control.
9:19:10AM The word cost kept coming up and that language fell like it,
9:19:15AM I feel really inappropriate and kind of scary.
9:19:18AM And I think really I was just going to say, as they pointed
9:19:25AM out earlier, it really doesn't do anything to lessen crime.
9:19:29AM It does move them at some areas.
9:19:33AM I think the last meeting we were having a discussion about
9:19:35AM how it doesn't necessarily lessen crime.
9:19:37AM If we want to lessen crime, we should probably be spending
9:19:40AM more money on education.
9:19:42AM Thank you.
9:19:43AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, ma'am.
9:19:43AM Next please?
9:19:44AM Anyone else care to speak on any item on the agenda?
9:19:55AM >> I'm Simpson, speaking on the same issue.
9:19:59AM I personally don't mind the cameras.
9:20:01AM I find it flattering if anyone wants to watch my every move.
9:20:05AM I also respect my friends' desire for privacy and recent the
9:20:08AM encroachment of the police state.
9:20:11AM I have an idea called a compromise.
9:20:13AM If we must have the cameras, open them up for public viewing
9:20:17AM online.

9:20:17AM If the government represents the people, then the people
9:20:22AM should have access to the camera data.
9:20:24AM This would put a check on the behavior of authorities,
9:20:27AM allowing anyone to see the camera footage, chip away at the
9:20:30AM blue wall of silence.
9:20:31AM With the Javon Neal situation, we have an example of what
9:20:34AM happens when only the authorities have access -- have the
9:20:35AM capacity for surveillance.
9:20:38AM If the public had access to the footage from the start, the
9:20:40AM problem would've solved itself.
9:20:42AM Also, I hope we didn't subcontract this work to some private
9:20:46AM out-of-town firm.
9:20:49AM I learned that Florida has a wiretapping law where the
9:20:52AM police can request a bystander turn off their camera and
9:20:56AM they have to comply.
9:20:57AM I mean, in that situation I think if we must have the
9:21:00AM cameras, then we should at least level the playing field so
9:21:04AM everyone has access to the data.
9:21:06AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
9:21:06AM Anyone else care to speak on any item on the agenda?
9:21:12AM >> Andrew spears, I live in the north Tampa region.
9:21:15AM Just moved here.
9:21:16AM Benjamin Franklin said a society that gives up liberties for
9:21:21AM the sake of security deserves neither and will get neither.
9:21:24AM I moved here, nice city.

9:21:27AM But once the RNC came in and I saw these cameras, I lived in
9:21:32AM New York City.
9:21:33AM I know how the police acts towards people and use the
9:21:37AM cameras to suppress the lower classes and stalk minorities.
9:21:42AM There's nothing good that will come from the cameras beside
9:21:44AM a police state.
9:21:45AM When the police are already oppressing large numbers of
9:21:48AM people for no reason other than the color of their skin or
9:21:51AM how much money is in their wallet, we can't sit here and
9:21:53AM just let the police keep dealing us and using our everyday
9:21:58AM lives, making us fearful in those everyday lives.
9:22:04AM Turn off the freaking cameras, please.
9:22:07AM It's great, personally I'll take them down myself if you're
9:22:10AM having budget issues.
9:22:12AM I know many citizens who for free would take down these
9:22:15AM cameras.
9:22:15AM It's not necessary to have them up.
9:22:17AM If you look around, people already do police themselves.
9:22:20AM We don't need more security cameras on here watching our
9:22:23AM every move.
9:22:24AM Especially when every time I see a police officer arrest
9:22:28AM somebody, most of the time he's either homeless or a
9:22:31AM minority.
9:22:32AM And I'm tired of standing by and watching someone who is
9:22:34AM supposed to be protecting us using all these tools to open

9:22:38AM proceeds us.
9:22:40AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Oppress.
9:22:46AM >> I'm also a resident of north Tampa.
9:22:49AM Speak about the cameras.
9:22:50AM To me the idea of having these cameras up is utterly
9:22:55AM ridiculous.
9:22:55AM Oftentimes the public is told that we are, that things are
9:23:00AM being instituted for our safety when these things in fact
9:23:04AM don't contribute to our safety but instead contribute to
9:23:06AM this police state and contribute to increased attack on
9:23:12AM homeless rights, increase attack on general population, and
9:23:16AM it's just -- it seems to me like it's layover from the RNC,
9:23:21AM where we were told that this is going to stimulate the
9:23:24AM economy and that this is going to help create business and
9:23:27AM help generally make this area flourish when it in fact it
9:23:31AM increases police state for the sake of safety, just hurt
9:23:35AM businesses for the most part.
9:23:36AM Downtown was totally dead.
9:23:37AM These cameras were put there for that purpose, for the RNC,
9:23:43AM now that the RNC is over, I see no need to at the down when
9:23:46AM it's going to cost more money, especially when it's going to
9:23:50AM cost more money to maintain them over the course of however
9:23:52AM long the city wishes to maintain them.
9:23:54AM Going to have to privately contact that because God knows we
9:23:57AM don't have the ability in this town to pay these people.

9:24:01AM And it's going to cost us money just to take them down.
9:24:03AM So, I don't see any reason why these, why this is even an
9:24:08AM issue.
9:24:09AM There's no accountability for authority as it is.
9:24:12AM TPD, I've seen them doing very horrendous things, especially
9:24:18AM of late and generally not having, not all of them, but, not
9:24:23AM all the officers, but generally not really having a, not
9:24:27AM really having any accountability for their actions.
9:24:30AM I think these cameras definitely contribute to that and I
9:24:33AM think that there's no reason for them to be up.
9:24:35AM I would really urge the Council to just remove them
9:24:37AM entirely.
9:24:38AM Don't move them to lower economic areas, where they're going
9:24:41AM to, where they're going to increase police surveillance of
9:24:44AM these areas that already have a distrust of authority and I
9:24:49AM feel like it's going to cause more problems no matter where
9:24:51AM these cameras are.
9:24:54AM This police state needs to stop and this is a very
9:24:58AM particular way that you can help do this.
9:25:00AM Please just take down the cameras.
9:25:02AM It would just be real great.
9:25:03AM Thank you.
9:25:04AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
9:25:05AM Anyone else in the audience care to speak on any item on the
9:25:09AM agenda?

9:25:09AM I see no one.
9:25:12AM We go to the public request for any reconsideration of
9:25:17AM legislative matters that happened the last Council meeting.
9:25:20AM Anyone in the audience care to request or reconsideration of
9:25:25AM legislative matters?
9:25:26AM I see no one.
9:25:27AM We go to committee reports.
9:25:29AM Public safety committee chair, Mr. Frank Reddick.
9:25:33AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9:25:34AM I move items 1 through 4.
9:25:36AM >> Second.
9:25:37AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Have a motion by Mr. Reddick, second by
9:25:39AM Mr. Cohen.
9:25:40AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:25:43AM Opposed nay.
9:25:45AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:25:45AM Parks, recreation, culture committee, chair, Ms. Mary
9:25:48AM Mulhern.
9:25:49AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9:25:51AM I move items 5 through 8.
9:25:52AM >> Second.
9:25:53AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Ms. Mulhern, I have a second by
9:25:55AM Mr. Reddick.
9:25:56AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:25:58AM Opposed nay.

9:25:59AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:26:00AM Public works committee chair, Mr. Mike Suarez.
9:26:04AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.
9:26:05AM I move items nine through 13.
9:26:08AM >> Second.
9:26:08AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mr. Suarez, second by
9:26:10AM Mr. Reddick on a closed vote with Mr. Cohen, all in favor of
9:26:14AM the motion please indicate by saying aye.
9:26:15AM Opposed nay.
9:26:16AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:26:16AM Building, zoning and preservation committee chair, list is a
9:26:21AM be Montelione.
9:26:23AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you Mr. Chair.
9:26:25AM Excuse me.
9:26:25AM I move items 1 -- I'm sorry, 14 through 23 and 24, I need to
9:26:32AM read the item.
9:26:35AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Have a motion by Ms. Montelione, second
9:26:43AM by Ms. Mulhern.
9:26:43AM All in favor of that motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:26:43AM Opposed, nay.
9:26:43AM The ayes have it unanimously. Ms. Montelione, on 24.
9:26:46AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: A public meeting will be held regarding a
9:26:48AM proposed brownfield area designation for property owned by
9:26:53AM Trademark Metals Recycling, LLC, totaling approximately
9:26:57AM 3.2 acres, located near the intersection of east ninth

9:27:01AM avenue and 71st street, with a business address of 6912 east
9:27:08AM 9th avenue, Tampa, Florida.
9:27:10AM The public meeting will be held at East Chelsea Baptist
9:27:13AM Church located at 7225 East Chelsea Street, Tampa, Florida,
9:27:20AM 33610 on October 22, 2012, between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m.
9:27:28AM >> Second.
9:27:29AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Ms. Montelione, second by
9:27:30AM Mr. Suarez.
9:27:31AM Further discussion by Councilmembers?
9:27:33AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:27:37AM Opposed nay.
9:27:39AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:27:39AM >> Transportation committee, Frank Reddick.
9:27:43AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Move item 25 and 26.
9:27:45AM >> Second.
9:27:45AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mr. Reddick, second by
9:27:47AM Mr. Suarez.
9:27:47AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:27:49AM Opposed nay.
9:27:50AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:27:53AM Need a motion to set for public hearing items 27 through 37.
9:27:57AM >> So moved.
9:27:58AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Mr.-- that was a tie.
9:28:03AM We'll go with Mr. Cohen, second with Ms. Montelione.
9:28:06AM Close vote with Mr. Suarez.

9:28:08AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:28:09AM Opposed nay.
9:28:10AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:28:12AM All right.
9:28:15AM I'll go with the agenda calls for staff reports and
9:28:18AM unfinished business on items 38 through 40.
9:28:23AM Since we are running a little ahead, I want to go for
9:28:28AM information reports at this time, just to pick up a few
9:28:31AM minutes here if I may.
9:28:32AM If you have any information reports, we can do that at this
9:28:38AM time.
9:28:38AM Or we can do other things.
9:28:43AM But we'll go right to left.
9:28:44AM Mr. Suarez?
9:28:45AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.
9:28:46AM I have one commendation I'd like to present, like a motion
9:28:52AM for commendation for the light house gospel mission faith
9:28:55AM home.
9:28:55AM They'll be celebrating their 60th year providing service
9:28:59AM that is impact and change lives of the homeless.
9:29:00AM The addicted and people in desperate situations in Tampa and
9:29:04AM surrounding counties.
9:29:05AM Going to be presenting on November 9th.
9:29:08AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Suarez, second
9:29:10AM bring Reddick.

9:29:11AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
9:29:12AM Opposed nay.
9:29:15AM The ayes have it unanimously.
9:29:15AM Anything else, Mr. Suarez?
9:29:18AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: No, sir.
9:29:18AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick?
9:29:20AM >>FRANK REDDICK: None, Mr. Chair.
9:29:21AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Cohen?
9:29:23AM >>HARRY COHEN: I do have one, I don't have it in front of me
9:29:26AM yet.
9:29:27AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Wait till later.
9:29:28AM Ms. Montelione?
9:29:30AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: No new business.
9:29:34AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Just when the chair needs help.
9:29:36AM You let me sink on my own.
9:29:38AM All right.
9:29:39AM Well, any new business, Ms. Mulhern?
9:29:46AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.
9:29:46AM Yes, one piece of new business.
9:29:49AM I would like to invite my colleagues and anyone from the
9:29:53AM public to the Head Start Foundation annual fund-raising
9:29:58AM luncheon on Friday, October 26th.
9:30:02AM I have placed invitations in each of my colleagues'
9:30:06AM mailboxes.
9:30:08AM I serve on the board of this foundation, which helps the

9:30:10AM parents of the Head Start children with scholarships and it
9:30:16AM helps the children with, at the Head Start program.
9:30:22AM Let me know if you can join me at my table.
9:30:25AM Thanks.
9:30:26AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, Ms. Mulhern.
9:30:28AM Okay.
9:30:36AM I'm looking for 35 minutes.
9:30:44AM Like being at the pitcher's mound and the batter doesn't
9:30:47AM show up.
9:30:48AM >>MARY MULHERN: The date is October 26th.
9:30:50AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We're going to go to, if I may at this
9:30:53AM time, item number 38.
9:30:56AM This is unfinished business, 38 through 40.
9:30:59AM I hope the administration is here.
9:31:01AM I'm sure they are.
9:31:02AM I know we're running a little early.
9:31:04AM Yes, sir?
9:31:09AM >> Good morning, Greg Bayor, director of parks and
9:31:11AM recreation.
9:31:12AM Am I'm here to address the questions posed in item 3.
9:31:17AM I will certainly be brief because we provided a thorough
9:31:20AM informational packet.
9:31:21AM Regarding question number one, the city's procedure for tree
9:31:25AM removal replacement, including the weather not the cities is
9:31:29AM exempt from these procedures.

9:31:30AM Let me read under the land development regulations, chapter
9:31:33AM 13, section 7, authorizes urban forest coordinator to remove
9:31:37AM trees within city rights-of-way without a permit.
9:31:40AM Further, the ordinance requires grand trees to be replaced
9:31:44AM inch per inch and one for one for trees that are eight
9:31:48AM inches or 12 inches or greater.
9:31:50AM I'd like to point out that none of the streets in Ybor were
9:31:53AM grand trees.
9:31:54AM Regarding the process, I'll cover that in question number
9:31:58AM three.
9:31:58AM How the Barrio Latino Commission should factor into these
9:32:02AM types of decisions.
9:32:04AM This is undeniably where we had a misunderstanding.
9:32:08AM Even year long planning between parks and recreation and
9:32:11AM YCDC came away with the impression this project was
9:32:16AM maintenance.
9:32:17AM It did not need to go before the Barrio Latino Commission.
9:32:20AM However that said this project is on hold.
9:32:22AM And with an abundance of caution, we're taking this back to
9:32:26AM the Barrio Latino Commission on October 16th.
9:32:28AM Planning department, parks and recreation and YCDC will
9:32:33AM ensure due notice is made to public and the businesses for
9:32:36AM the October 16th meeting.
9:32:38AM Question number three, the process for notifying
9:32:41AM neighborhoods and businesses about these types of projects

9:32:43AM and which city departments are responsible for notification.
9:32:46AM In your packet, there is a two and a half page process we
9:32:50AM currently use for community involvement.
9:32:52AM With another associate, we have other associated agencies
9:32:56AM that coordinate areas, such as downtown partnership, YCDC.
9:33:01AM We let that group be the primary notifier.
9:33:04AM Example, with the downtown partnership notifies the downtown
9:33:07AM businesses or the downtown trees replaced.
9:33:10AM We have a good working relationship with the YCDC.
9:33:13AM We have been working with them for over a year and all the
9:33:15AM relevant e-mails are attached to show we were very extensive
9:33:19AM in coordinating with them.
9:33:20AM Let me repeat how important it is for us to communicate.
9:33:23AM Again, we, this project is on hold.
9:33:26AM We're covering the holes with plywood, will make it safe
9:33:29AM until we can get to the Barrio commission on the 16th.
9:33:33AM Even more caution, I think you'll see in our packet, we
9:33:40AM created further notification to the public and businesses,
9:33:43AM 12 step process we have outlined in the packet.
9:33:47AM How these particular trees olive and crepe myrtles were
9:33:52AM selected to replace the removed trees.
9:33:55AM Several plans were developed.
9:33:56AM The final design came up as we were starting to implement
9:34:00AM it.
9:34:01AM Overall cohesive appearance was the goal but we had to

9:34:05AM factor in limitations downtown, in downtown Ybor.
9:34:08AM Distant relationship to buildings, amount of direct sunlight
9:34:11AM and overhead utilities.
9:34:13AM If I could note chapter 13, section 162, item G, recommended
9:34:18AM trees for power line plantings, crepe myrtle.
9:34:22AM I understand initially there was a strong desire for vast
9:34:25AM majority of the replacement trees be olive to give it a then
9:34:30AM appearance in Ybor City Mediterranean appearance.
9:34:34AM We were only able to find 32 olive trees.
9:34:38AM I looked at the contract, 350 vendors in the state are on
9:34:41AM that list.
9:34:43AM I'd like to point out also that Barrio Latino Commission
9:34:49AM landscape guidelines it states, choose plant material
9:34:52AM similar to those use in joining or nearby structures.
9:34:56AM Currently exist 22 crepe myrtles in downtown Ybor.
9:35:00AM Not a question we had on there but I think it's one you'd
9:35:05AM pose to me.
9:35:06AM Why were these tree stumps removed all at once?
9:35:09AM There's no question it seeing 102 tree stumps left there is
9:35:15AM very upsetting.
9:35:16AM The purpose of cutting all at once was expedite the process
9:35:20AM so we'd be least disruptive to parking in downtown.
9:35:23AM What we found in our downtown tree removal, we were able to
9:35:26AM remove 10 to 15 streets a week, which would've turned into a
9:35:29AM ten week project.

9:35:30AM Contractor brought in a crew, removed 10 to 12 trees a day.
9:35:35AM Again, we now appreciate the negative visual impact.
9:35:38AM And as I said, this project is on hold to allow us to go
9:35:41AM ahead with the Barrio commission on the 16th.
9:35:45AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
9:35:46AM Ms. Mulhern?
9:35:48AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9:35:49AM Thank you, Mr. Bayor.
9:35:51AM Yvette answered a few of the questions.
9:35:54AM I want to ask the, maybe the big overall question that
9:35:58AM wasn't included in my request last week.
9:36:04AM This was -- maybe you just need to clarify for me.
9:36:08AM This was a year long process with the YCDC and with the
9:36:14AM decision to replace existing trees?
9:36:17AM >> That's correct.
9:36:18AM >>MARY MULHERN: And why?
9:36:20AM >> Your packet does outline every tree we did survey,
9:36:23AM disease, declining, causing maintenance issues.
9:36:27AM Buckling sidewalk.
9:36:28AM >>MARY MULHERN: You're so tall.
9:36:29AM You need to take the microphone up.
9:36:32AM >> It fell back down.
9:36:34AM >>MARY MULHERN: Okay, disease?
9:36:35AM >> Trees were diseased and declining.
9:36:37AM They were, while we do recognize crepe myrtle drops flowers,

9:36:43AM tree that is were there were dropping flowers.
9:36:47AM Situation being too close to building.
9:36:48AM Some in direct shade, so they weren't healthy.
9:36:51AM Some were causing the sidewalk to buckle or tree roots to be
9:36:54AM pushed up.
9:36:56AM >>MARY MULHERN: I haven't had a chance to read through this.
9:36:57AM I appreciate it.
9:36:58AM And I will be reading through it.
9:37:00AM So I was going to ask you some questions that were probably
9:37:03AM answered in here.
9:37:04AM How many of the trees were diseased?
9:37:07AM >> Oh, gosh.
9:37:07AM I'd have to go back.
9:37:09AM We can give you a matrix.
9:37:12AM >>MARY MULHERN: Maybe you can come back with that.
9:37:14AM How many?
9:37:16AM 101?
9:37:17AM >> 102.
9:37:19AM >>MARY MULHERN: If they worked on it a year, maybe each one
9:37:22AM we could find out why they were chopped down.
9:37:25AM >> We'll put it into a matrix.
9:37:27AM >>MARY MULHERN: Here's really what my problem with this is.
9:37:29AM The tree farm and the idea of planting trees in the city is
9:37:35AM to put in more trees, so basically you're spending -- how
9:37:41AM much was the total you're spending to cut down and to

9:37:44AM purchase the new trees?
9:37:47AM >> The overall, looks like I'm on my own on that one.
9:37:59AM >> Good morning, Council, Dennis Rogero, revenue and finance
9:38:02AM department.
9:38:03AM I'm sorry, what was the specific question?
9:38:06AM >>MARY MULHERN: How much is the Parks Department planning to
9:38:11AM spend, or has already spent on cutting down those trees and
9:38:16AM replacing them?
9:38:20AM >> Just the Ybor trees?
9:38:22AM >>MARY MULHERN: Yes.
9:38:22AM >> Oh, I don't have that broken out to that detail.
9:38:28AM >>MARY MULHERN: Don't go away, Dennis, because I'll ask you
9:38:31AM the questions.
9:38:32AM So, all of these costs, even though you don't know how much
9:38:36AM it is for Ybor, are coming from the tree trust fund, is that
9:38:42AM correct?
9:38:42AM >> Yes, ma'am.
9:38:44AM >>MARY MULHERN: Has City Council approved that?
9:38:47AM >> Yes.
9:38:49AM I've seen the resolution.
9:38:50AM I don't have a copy of the resolution on me.
9:38:52AM But if I'm not -- do you have it?
9:38:56AM >> Yes, I do.
9:38:58AM >> Going to do another homework.
9:39:01AM $40,800 was the cost of removal in Ybor.

9:39:04AM $71,306.39 we spent on the new trees.
9:39:10AM Overall, taking out the trees and replacement is 110,000.
9:39:15AM >>MARY MULHERN: I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time hearing.
9:39:19AM In the total cost is?
9:39:21AM >> There was $40,800 for the tree removal.
9:39:24AM And $71,306 for the new trees.
9:39:30AM >>MARY MULHERN: And does that include the, any cost of
9:39:36AM planning, landscape design and does it include the cost?
9:39:39AM >> No, that's the contract cost.
9:39:41AM >>MARY MULHERN: The contract cost for the work.
9:39:43AM >> Yes.
9:39:44AM >>MARY MULHERN: How much does the new trees cost?
9:39:46AM >> 71,000.
9:39:47AM >>MARY MULHERN: So, you're saying that's all the cost is,
9:39:51AM 110?
9:39:52AM >> That's correct.
9:39:53AM >>MARY MULHERN: $110,000.
9:39:54AM Okay.
9:39:55AM And how much -- tell me again, I know I asked you last week,
9:40:04AM but I don't have my notes.
9:40:06AM And hopefully it's in this big packet.
9:40:08AM But how much money is in the tree fund, or was in the tree
9:40:11AM fund before this lapped?
9:40:12AM >> Approximately $1.2 million.
9:40:15AM >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.

9:40:15AM And are we done -- if you go ahead and replant the trees
9:40:24AM that were cut down, is there more?
9:40:28AM Is this part one, of the Ybor project?
9:40:32AM >> No, this will conclude unless of course there's an
9:40:34AM emergency or another tree dies.
9:40:36AM Actually, not in your packet but I do have the survey that
9:40:39AM was done.
9:40:40AM I can leave this today.
9:40:41AM And it does outline every tree in Ybor, those that were
9:40:45AM stayed and were good, those were fair, poor, replacements
9:40:48AM and what it was missing.
9:40:51AM All detailed in color and also shows, we have highlighted if
9:40:54AM needed, where the crepe myrtles currently exist.
9:40:57AM So we can get to that right now.
9:41:00AM >>MARY MULHERN: I think, you know, we have got this packet,
9:41:03AM and I appreciate that you're going to take this back to the
9:41:07AM Barrio Latino.
9:41:08AM I also appreciate the fact that you are new.
9:41:10AM And it's a complicated process, especially in Ybor when we
9:41:13AM have all these different YCDC and Barrio Latino.
9:41:18AM So, but I think just in general, the public and business
9:41:23AM owners and homeowners need to know, if something this big is
9:41:28AM going to happen.
9:41:29AM Every one of them needs to know far ahead of time and have
9:41:32AM input.

9:41:33AM And it sound like they didn't.
9:41:34AM >> I'm on the same page.
9:41:36AM We created a new 12 step, much more extensive process.
9:41:40AM >>MARY MULHERN: The other big question I have for you as the
9:41:42AM parks director is -- actually, let me stick with this.
9:41:47AM The fact that the only people who were involved in the
9:41:50AM planning was the YCDC board, and the Parks Department?
9:41:55AM Is that who was planning this for a year?
9:42:01AM >> Good morning, Council.
9:42:02AM Thom Snelling, planning and development.
9:42:04AM Dennis Fernandez an my staff was also involved in some of
9:42:08AM the phasing.
9:42:09AM So he was part of the discussions as well.
9:42:11AM All the correct players were at the table, Barrio, historic
9:42:15AM preservation staff, YCDC, Parks Department.
9:42:18AM The correct people were there.
9:42:20AM And just as a quick point of clarification, because you
9:42:23AM appreciate Greg's newness to this city.
9:42:26AM Part of what the tree trust fund is, is to be used for is
9:42:31AM for the maintenance, for all the healthy tree canopy.
9:42:34AM And unfortunately that does require removing diseased or
9:42:37AM declining trees or trees that are causing damage to other
9:42:42AM facilities.
9:42:42AM So it's overall to maintain a healthy tree canopy.
9:42:46AM For the most part, it is planting additional trees over and

9:42:50AM over.
9:42:51AM But sometimes you have to go back and replace and maintain
9:42:53AM what you have to make sure it's a healthy canopy.
9:42:56AM So that's another big part of what the trust fund is.
9:42:58AM >>MARY MULHERN: I understand that.
9:43:00AM I just think that's a lot of trees in one place.
9:43:03AM And I also don't understand why, you know, that tree funded
9:43:11AM was a city-wide fund.
9:43:13AM And this decision was made just with the Ybor neighborhood,
9:43:19AM apparently -- not even with the neighborhood, but with the
9:43:25AM YCDC.
9:43:27AM What was the Barrio involvement?
9:43:29AM >> Initially it did not go to Barrio.
9:43:31AM We viewed it as a maintenance and a phase and replacing like
9:43:35AM for like trees.
9:43:36AM >>MARY MULHERN: It's a big thing.
9:43:37AM You know, I think everyone at least Councilman, Chairman
9:43:43AM Miranda was here with me when all the trees got cut down in
9:43:48AM Kiley Park.
9:43:49AM And that was a big shock.
9:43:51AM And it happened exactly the same way.
9:43:54AM No notice, no public input.
9:43:56AM Council didn't know it was going to happen.
9:43:58AM All of a sudden we woke up and all those trees were gone.
9:44:02AM So now we had that happen twice.

9:44:04AM I hope it doesn't happen again.
9:44:06AM But with regard to Ybor, and the tree fund, I mean, I had
9:44:11AM hoped, I know I've given up because I didn't get any
9:44:14AM support, but I had hoped that we could restore that
9:44:18AM fantastic Kiley Garden, which you know, I've been trying
9:44:22AM to -- I and many other internationally known landscape
9:44:26AM architects and architects and art community in the world
9:44:30AM wanted to restore that.
9:44:32AM And we could've used some of that money for that.
9:44:35AM Instead, we're using it for something that had no
9:44:39AM transparency and input in the planning.
9:44:41AM I also questioned whether, and I don't see why we couldn't
9:44:46AM work into this, maybe do a transfer of funds.
9:44:49AM But instead of using up the entire tree fund to replace
9:44:54AM existing trees that I'm not convinced at all, all need to be
9:44:58AM replaced.
9:45:02AM The TIF money from Ybor could've been used for that.
9:45:06AM If that's a decision -- it sounds like the decision was, the
9:45:10AM input was from the YCDC board.
9:45:13AM And if they want to do this in their neighborhood, that's an
9:45:16AM excellent use of TIF dollars, if the neighborhood has agreed
9:45:20AM to it.
9:45:21AM So we have the problem that doesn't seem like the neighbors,
9:45:23AM the business owners, the property owners were on board for
9:45:26AM this.

9:45:26AM Or even had any input.
9:45:30AM And the decision to use, you know, a city-wide fund that we
9:45:35AM need everywhere.
9:45:36AM There's plenty of places that need trees, instead of just
9:45:39AM cutting down in a, you know, on a street where there were,
9:45:44AM streets where there already were trees.
9:45:48AM I have one other -- so the City Council approved both those
9:45:56AM expenditures.
9:45:57AM So we have already agreed to that.
9:45:59AM Okay.
9:45:59AM So I'd like maybe us to revisit -- I know, ask you to
9:46:05AM revisit whether maybe some of that money could've come from
9:46:09AM TIF dollars.
9:46:10AM And I guess I could bring that up at our next CRA meeting.
9:46:13AM And we could do some transferring of funds so that we'd have
9:46:18AM some tree money left.
9:46:19AM Then this question is for a tree expert.
9:46:23AM I don't know if they're here.
9:46:25AM But someone called me and said that olive trees were a very
9:46:29AM bad choice for Ybor City because they really attract rats.
9:46:33AM And we're talking about a restaurant district.
9:46:38AM So, I don't know if that's true.
9:46:41AM I didn't do any research on that.
9:46:43AM But it's something maybe the tree people could look into.
9:46:49AM >> It is on our approved species list, but we'll certainly

9:46:53AM look and see if there's a rodent situation.
9:46:55AM >>MARY MULHERN: Just sounds like not, we know we have that
9:46:58AM problem with fruit trees -- we have fruit rats on fruit
9:47:03AM trees.
9:47:04AM I guess olives are fruit, are they?
9:47:08AM >> I can address that.
9:47:09AM This is an ornamental olive tree.
9:47:12AM It does not create fruit.
9:47:13AM It does not draw fruit.
9:47:15AM So I don't think that will be a problem.
9:47:18AM >>MARY MULHERN: Okay.
9:47:19AM Can you maybe just do a little research?
9:47:22AM >> Yes.
9:47:22AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.
9:47:23AM So, that's all I have.
9:47:25AM I'd like to hear back from -- I'll ask at our next CRA
9:47:32AM meeting.
9:47:33AM But I will be asking for a report on this and -- I'd also
9:47:42AM like, the other thing I'd like to see is, and this may be in
9:47:45AM the packet too, but the breakdown of all the funds we have
9:47:50AM currently in the tree trust fund and how they're earmarked.
9:47:57AM What the plans are for those in the future.
9:47:59AM And to have it year by year when the money was put in.
9:48:09AM >> Understood.
9:48:10AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

9:48:11AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
9:48:11AM Okay, Mr. Reddick and then Ms. Montelione.
9:48:15AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9:48:16AM Mr. Bayor, let me first just thank you for reaching out to
9:48:22AM me when this first broke to the news about the trees and
9:48:29AM having received quite a few calls from the neighbors in that
9:48:33AM community about this issue.
9:48:35AM But let me just go back for clarification because I think I
9:48:40AM still have, confused about one or two things.
9:48:46AM My understanding was hopefully, these trees were going to be
9:48:53AM done for the end of the RNC, before that.
9:48:55AM Is that correct?
9:48:56AM >> That's correct, sir.
9:48:58AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Two, with the YCDC, was it their
9:49:04AM responsibility to inform the businesses and the neighbors,
9:49:11AM as well as the Barrio Latino Commission, about the planting
9:49:19AM of these trees -- was it their responsibility?
9:49:27AM >> Good morning.
9:49:27AM Vince Pardo, USC Development Corporation.
9:49:31AM We have a, I think an excellent communication system.
9:49:34AM And we can answer your question.
9:49:37AM I can tell you from my standpoint, there isn't a community
9:49:40AM in the City of Tampa that is more well informed with Ybor,
9:49:43AM whether Ybor flash, with our Ybor business.
9:49:46AM The, I'm not sure if it's in your packet, but we had a

9:49:51AM committee, planting and structure committee, which deals
9:49:54AM with things like this.
9:49:55AM They were presented with a color coded plan in April.
9:49:58AM Our newsletter, which I have copies of, was sent out in the
9:50:02AM spring, on the front page, Ybor City's Sprucing up for the
9:50:06AM RNC.
9:50:06AM Talking about the tree replacement, the types of trees that
9:50:09AM were going in.
9:50:09AM And it was reported monthly at the YCDC board meetings.
9:50:14AM This distribution as you know goes to residents, to business
9:50:16AM people, to companies, so they know what's happening as far
9:50:21AM as our Ybor flash.
9:50:22AM And the flash group was out as well.
9:50:24AM I think one of the things perspective, we're coming in new,
9:50:28AM but probably even after this process began, but my staff,
9:50:31AM the barrio and the Parks Department did meet for about a
9:50:35AM year on this.
9:50:36AM The issue as far as how the implementation with Barrio is
9:50:39AM really where we are and some of the concerns.
9:50:41AM There were two phases that we looked at.
9:50:43AM One was before the RNC, to initiate the replacement of trees
9:50:49AM that were diseased.
9:50:50AM And to replace trees where we had empty tree grates in that
9:50:54AM particular area.
9:50:55AM What we had asked for in Ybor was, and we talked about this

9:50:58AM with parks for sometime, when the tree gets, happens as far
9:51:01AM as what to replace it with.
9:51:03AM We knew most of the oaks in Ybor City were causing problems.
9:51:06AM Every year, I'm spending my TIF dollars to, as well as some
9:51:09AM assistance from public works on repairing sidewalks, tree
9:51:15AM grates buckling up because the root system coming in.
9:51:18AM And it's an ongoing maintenance problem.
9:51:20AM So my request to the group was -- I'm not a tree person.
9:51:24AM I said I know I want shade, low maintenance and in 10 years,
9:51:27AM I'd like to have something that's not going to tear up our
9:51:31AM sidewalks and tree grates so we have tripping hazards again.
9:51:33AM Whoever was talking about the type of trees, olive and crepe
9:51:36AM myrtles was determined by the staff around the table.
9:51:39AM The second part of that plan was what I was requesting is,
9:51:41AM we need a long-range plan for Ybor City.
9:51:43AM We need a master tree plan, so when a tree is felled,
9:51:48AM something happens, we know exactly what we're going to
9:51:50AM replace it with.
9:51:51AM The bent was not have all that done by the RNC, but the
9:51:54AM first phase as I described.
9:51:56AM We weren't able to do the first phase.
9:51:58AM My understanding is, correct me if I'm wrong, that the
9:52:00AM contractor got behind downtown and the trees replacement in
9:52:04AM phase one did not happen in Ybor.
9:52:05AM And the decision was made later to go ahead and implement

9:52:08AM the plan.
9:52:09AM I'm not sure how many trees that would have been.
9:52:12AM But I can tell you, I put out notices every day about what's
9:52:16AM going to be happening.
9:52:17AM But I think the impact of seeing the stumps cut up at four
9:52:22AM foot would've frightened anybody.
9:52:24AM What we have here, we're color coded as far as what the plan
9:52:27AM was going to be, that as far as crepe myrtles here, olives
9:52:30AM tree, palm trees.
9:52:31AM And that was the master plan we had asked for for Ybor.
9:52:35AM The implementation was to be phased in and that part did not
9:52:38AM take place.
9:52:39AM That's where we have the public reaction.
9:52:41AM If we looked maybe doing two blocks, take them out, put new
9:52:45AM ones in within a couple days.
9:52:47AM My office was flooded with calls.
9:52:49AM We were notified Thursday afternoon that the contractor had,
9:52:52AM was able to come in the next day and start doing on phase
9:52:56AM one, and which again the assumption was that was going to be
9:53:01AM a lot of trimming with the trees.
9:53:02AM Four foot stumps in there was not intended.
9:53:04AM Again, I think that is the reaction we're getting, is
9:53:08AM looking at that as opposed to the preplan which has been in
9:53:11AM our formal committee meetings and again in our Ybor legend,
9:53:15AM which goes out to everyone that gets Ybor flash, as far as

9:53:19AM front page, this plan was coming.
9:53:22AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Vince, let me just say this.
9:53:23AM Even though the newsletters went out, even though there
9:53:27AM whereas meetings, somewhere there was some miscommunication.
9:53:32AM Because when you have the -- I guess you're saying that you
9:53:38AM disagree with the public comments that was stated by
9:53:43AM merchants in Ybor, on TV and in print, also the
9:53:51AM communication that I received from the vice chair of the
9:53:54AM Barrio commission stating, who informed me and raised a
9:54:00AM question to me, were I aware that these trees were being cut
9:54:07AM or being removed?
9:54:08AM And I had no idea.
9:54:11AM So, if that was -- and after this came out, and all the news
9:54:18AM counts that we saw in the news on TV, with representatives
9:54:24AM for the merchants, business communities, representative from
9:54:27AM the association, all them stating the same thing, that they
9:54:30AM was unaware.
9:54:31AM And now you're saying the newsletters, all these meetings
9:54:35AM took place.
9:54:35AM I'm here to believe that.
9:54:42AM All that could be true.
9:54:44AM But, somewhere there was a lack of communication for this to
9:54:50AM happen and for this to blow up the way it did in the
9:54:54AM community.
9:54:55AM But I'm glad to see that a plan is in place and I'm happy

9:54:59AM that, that Mr. Bayor, he was generous enough to communicate
9:55:09AM with me when this took place.
9:55:11AM Because I tell you, it put us in a bad position, when we're
9:55:15AM sitting up here and we're getting calls about something's
9:55:20AM going on and we have no clue.
9:55:22AM No idea that this is taking place.
9:55:25AM And I was shocked too to see those touches, the touches out
9:55:31AM there, almost the same height as me, sitting up on seventh
9:55:36AM avenue.
9:55:37AM So I could've stood there and we could've related to each
9:55:41AM other.
9:55:41AM I can see how they felt.
9:55:43AM And the thing is, I just hope that in the future, that, and
9:55:52AM through your plan, that we have better communication because
9:55:55AM I would hate to be in the same position that I was in, get a
9:55:58AM call from the residents, the business owners and asking
9:56:01AM questions about, did you know all this was taking place?
9:56:06AM And we having to say no.
9:56:08AM And that was embarrassing.
9:56:10AM And then when the news media called, we're having to say no.
9:56:15AM And then we see this on TV.
9:56:18AM So, I'm glad to see a plan is in place and hopefully in the
9:56:20AM future, as the colleague just stated, this won't happen
9:56:24AM again.
9:56:24AM And so that we, we won't be embarrassed by our constituents

9:56:31AM when these things take place.
9:56:33AM Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9:56:34AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We go to Ms. Montelione and then the rest
9:56:37AM of the Councilmembers who have not spoken, and we go back to
9:56:39AM the original maker.
9:56:41AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9:56:43AM If you put those on the overhead.
9:56:48AM I went through all of the pictures and the reports that were
9:56:51AM attached to the photographs of the trees.
9:56:53AM And some of them obviously needed to come out.
9:56:56AM I mean, there's no doubt that some of these trees had to go.
9:57:00AM Like this one, for instance, or the next one.
9:57:03AM That one.
9:57:07AM That is really not a tree that should be retained.
9:57:10AM However, the next one, it's a little bit far away, but,
9:57:17AM doesn't seem to be interfering with power lines.
9:57:19AM Doesn't seem to be interfering with anything at all.
9:57:22AM Awnings or anything.
9:57:23AM So going through the packet, there were reports attached and
9:57:28AM on those reports, there's the tree, type tree condition and
9:57:32AM any other notes that need to be made.
9:57:34AM So out of all of those, I think there were 10 or 12 that
9:57:40AM those reports either indicated absolutely nothing, there was
9:57:43AM no tree species ticked off and no tree condition.
9:57:49AM No notes of any kind.

9:57:50AM And just a photograph attached.
9:57:54AM And when I look at the photograph attached, the trees look
9:57:59AM pretty good.
9:58:00AM I mean, there's three or four trees in every photograph, so
9:58:05AM some of them, you know, there might be one that needs to be
9:58:08AM coming out.
9:58:09AM But there's others that the tree condition is noted as good.
9:58:17AM The tree condition is noted as good.
9:58:20AM There's a lot of them in here that say the tree condition is
9:58:27AM either good or fair.
9:58:28AM One of the other things I noticed was that the notes say,
9:58:36AM has potential.
9:58:37AM So I'm not sure what "has potential" is.
9:58:40AM Has potential for coming out or has potential for remaining?
9:58:44AM So the survey that was done by whoever did go out and
9:58:50AM actually take these notes and report back whether these
9:58:56AM trees needed to be cut down and replaced or not, seems to be
9:59:03AM kind of sketchy.
9:59:04AM There's no consistency.
9:59:05AM There's no -- it doesn't appear that a lot of care was taken
9:59:09AM to really take the time and note what was wrong with the
9:59:13AM tree and fill out this form, to even in this case, say
9:59:19AM whether or not it was good, fair, poor, or what kind of tree
9:59:22AM it is, anything like that.
9:59:23AM It's just Harts the location, this is the kind of tree it

9:59:26AM was and here's your photograph.
9:59:27AM So, that disturbs me that we didn't have folks out there
9:59:33AM doing this tree survey that really seemed to care how these
9:59:38AM forms were filled out and some didn't even make notes at
9:59:43AM all.
9:59:44AM So, that's disturbing to me.
9:59:46AM The other is that, I know it's cost effective to go out and,
9:59:52AM as you say, somebody said the contractor could go out all at
9:59:56AM once and remove all these trees.
9:59:58AM And that's most cost effective way to do it because they're
10:00:01AM out there, they have the equipment, they don't have to
10:00:03AM remobilize.
10:00:04AM I get that.
10:00:05AM However, part of the charm of Ybor City is the historical
10:00:09AM character of the city.
10:00:10AM I mean, of area, and that's because it's evolved over time.
10:00:15AM So, maintaining some of the trees and removing the ones that
10:00:20AM really needed to be removed would reflect that character.
10:00:24AM You'd have old established trees, that are big and you know,
10:00:28AM full and then you'd have young trees that, you know, are
10:00:33AM just coming up, so you would have that mixture of what makes
10:00:38AM Ybor City so charming, is that you know, there's a little
10:00:41AM bit of the old, there's a little bit of the new, and I think
10:00:44AM that going through and selectively removing the trees and
10:00:49AM not doing it all at once would have been a much better

10:00:52AM option.
10:00:53AM Yes, it would've been a little bit more expensive.
10:00:55AM But we would've spread the cost out over time.
10:00:58AM I mean, there are sometimes when you have to look at what
10:01:00AM the benefits are over the costs.
10:01:02AM And even I'm the one who's always looking at the pennies.
10:01:06AM So that's a concern.
10:01:08AM And the other concern is that we talked about, a couple of
10:01:12AM people talked about maintenance.
10:01:13AM You talked about maintenance, and Vince Pardo talked about
10:01:17AM maintenance.
10:01:17AM And one of Vince's criteria was the request for replacement
10:01:21AM trees that were low maintenance.
10:01:23AM Well, it doesn't seem to me the look of any of these, that
10:01:29AM any of these trees have been maintained over time.
10:01:31AM It doesn't look like any of the oaks were ever trimmed.
10:01:35AM Some of these trees would have not been interfering with the
10:01:39AM awnings or other buildings or power lines, if they had been
10:01:47AM properly trimmed as all oaks need to be.
10:01:50AM So if we never maintained the trees that were in Ybor City
10:01:54AM to start with, how are we going to put in crepe Myrtles that
10:01:58AM are hugely in need of maintenance, every single season.
10:02:05AM They need to be cut.
10:02:07AM They need to be trimmed.
10:02:08AM The crepe myrtles drop flowers.

10:02:10AM I can only imagine the complaints that we're going to get
10:02:13AM when those flowers are stuck to peoples cars.
10:02:16AM When they drop and create a mess on the sidewalks.
10:02:19AM If there's, you know, somebody walking on the sidewalk and
10:02:22AM slips on flowers that are sitting there on the sidewalk, I
10:02:25AM mean, I know it's a stretch, but it happens.
10:02:28AM The crepe mirth tills are-crepe myrtles, they're beautiful,
10:02:35AM they look really pretty certain times of years.
10:02:39AM But other times of years, you have to cut those trees.
10:02:43AM I can imagine what people will think when they see these
10:02:47AM trees half chopped off.
10:02:49AM So that's a huge concern of mine, since we didn't seem to be
10:02:52AM doing maintenance before, how are we going to keep up with
10:02:55AM maintenance going forward.
10:02:56AM And how expensive is that maintenance going to be for crepe
10:03:00AM myrtles.
10:03:01AM So that's, those are my biggest concerns.
10:03:03AM And as far as the communication, you know, lots of people
10:03:08AM get newsletters, lots of people get, you know, information
10:03:13AM from a variety of sources these days.
10:03:16AM But I know that a lot of people don't really pay attention
10:03:22AM to a lot of the newsletters they get because they have such
10:03:26AM busy days and they look at it and go, oh, another
10:03:29AM newsletter.
10:03:30AM I'll read it later and never get around to it.

10:03:32AM So we have to use special media, we have to use other ways
10:03:35AM of communicating and it's something I talks about all the
10:03:38AM time across departments, so it's not just you.
10:03:41AM Don't take it personally.
10:03:42AM We have the same thing in the water department.
10:03:44AM We have the same thing in a lot of areas, public works,
10:03:48AM streets are going to be closed.
10:03:49AM We're doing a better job, if you sign up for the alerts
10:03:52AM through alert Tampa.
10:03:53AM That seems to get peoples attention.
10:03:59AM So we have to be more conscious of how we communicate with
10:04:07AM the public.
10:04:08AM We're getting better, but I don't see that we're there yet.
10:04:11AM So those are my concerns.
10:04:12AM Thank you, sir.
10:04:15AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Commissioner Mulhern?
10:04:18AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10:04:19AM I'm only speaking again because I had questions that came up
10:04:21AM based on what I've heard.
10:04:23AM I'm not going to belabor Councilwoman's Montelione has done
10:04:28AM a pretty thorough job of looking over this species and the
10:04:32AM trees cut down and replaced by.
10:04:34AM I agree with her, doesn't seem crepe myrtles are a solution
10:04:37AM to a maintenance -- if that was part of the reason, I don't
10:04:41AM see that as a big solution as opposed to oaks.

10:04:46AM Either leaves, flowers, one or the other.
10:04:49AM But a question I want to add is, we were told that it was,
10:04:55AM they were going to be replaced by crepe myrtle, palms and
10:04:59AM olive.
10:05:00AM Palm trees are not shade trees.
10:05:03AM Which is, you know, one of the justifications for replacing
10:05:08AM the trees.
10:05:10AM And I don't really -- if a crepe myrtle tree is actually
10:05:14AM maintained, it's not, also not going to provide a lot of
10:05:17AM shade.
10:05:18AM So, I think even though oak trees are messy, and I do
10:05:22AM believe that, you know, you could have that problem with the
10:05:25AM roots, but flipping through all these photographs, I didn't
10:05:29AM see anywhere the roots were really popping up.
10:05:34AM So, I don't know, you know, going to have to look at them
10:05:38AM one by one.
10:05:39AM But I think you really need to justify your tree picks, now
10:05:45AM that we have lost the old trees.
10:05:47AM And really why you're picking those.
10:05:52AM I know you said because of the maintenance.
10:05:54AM But it wasn't very convincing.
10:05:56AM So maybe next time you come back, or you can send us a memo
10:06:00AM about that.
10:06:00AM Second thing I wanted to point out is that one of the few
10:06:11AM official duties I have in my second term is being the

10:06:15AM chairperson of the parks and recreation committee for City
10:06:19AM Council.
10:06:20AM And none of this was brought to my attention, and it sounds
10:06:26AM like Councilman Reddick, whose district this happened in,
10:06:32AM read about it in the paper too.
10:06:33AM So in the future, the courtesy of actually a briefing, or
10:06:37AM invitation to these meetings, YCDC.
10:06:41AM And again, I'll bring it up at the next CRA meeting.
10:06:45AM And the third question I have, because I knew this had to
10:06:50AM have something to do with the RNC.
10:06:52AM And I'm looking through these pictures.
10:06:57AM And it seems the idea was to Spruce up Ybor for the
10:07:01AM convention.
10:07:03AM And you know, you guys did a fantastic job on Bayshore and
10:07:06AM downtown.
10:07:07AM It's beautiful.
10:07:07AM We didn't get to Ybor before the convention.
10:07:12AM So, my question is, was part of the reason that these trees
10:07:16AM were slated to be cut down, so that the cameras, the
10:07:20AM security cameras view would not be obstructed?
10:07:26AM I guess that's a question for -- Chief Castor is here, maybe
10:07:29AM she could answer that.
10:07:30AM But are there security cameras -- I think I can see some in
10:07:34AM these pictures -- along the streets where the trees were cut
10:07:39AM down?

10:07:44AM >> Good morning, Council.
10:07:45AM Jane Castor, chief of police.
10:07:47AM There was no discussion with the tree removal that had
10:07:54AM anything to do with the security cameras.
10:07:56AM Those cameras are not a part of what we put in for the RNC.
10:08:00AM And we have never had any issue with any trees being in the
10:08:04AM way in Ybor City.
10:08:05AM >>MARY MULHERN: So there were no cameras put in on these
10:08:08AM Ybor streets?
10:08:10AM >> Correct.
10:08:10AM We have the camera system that's been in place in Ybor since
10:08:16AM the late 90s.
10:08:17AM >>MARY MULHERN: The old system.
10:08:18AM >> Correct.
10:08:19AM >>MARY MULHERN: But are some of those installed along.
10:08:21AM >> Seventh avenue.
10:08:23AM >>MARY MULHERN: Seventh avenue.
10:08:24AM Okay.
10:08:24AM Thank you.
10:08:27AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Any other Councilmember?
10:08:29AM Okay.
10:08:29AM I think there's a request for you to come back, as I recall,
10:08:35AM beginning conversation, with certain items discussed with
10:08:39AM you.
10:08:43AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me ask the Councilmember who made

10:08:46AM that request.
10:08:48AM >>MARY MULHERN: I would say maybe 30 days.
10:08:49AM Not our next Council meeting.
10:08:51AM The first of November, could you do that?
10:08:56AM And so, some of it's in here, so it's not as much work --
10:09:01AM you've done most of the work.
10:09:03AM >> I could answer a lot now, but I would be more thorough
10:09:07AM with more information.
10:09:08AM >>MARY MULHERN: Basically on two lists.
10:09:09AM The budget list, the costs, the tree fund.
10:09:14AM And the list of the trees and that may already be in here,
10:09:20AM the trees that were cut down.
10:09:21AM >> What you need is right here in my hand.
10:09:23AM It's a map of every tree that was identified and the
10:09:26AM conditions are on here.
10:09:29AM In three days, we'll have a new form much more thorough.
10:09:33AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Give me a date, clerk.
10:09:35AM >>MARY MULHERN: November 1st.
10:09:36AM Under staff reports.
10:09:37AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: November 1st, under staff reports.
10:09:39AM That's 10:00, made by Ms. Mulhern, second by Ms. Montelione.
10:09:42AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
10:09:44AM Opposed nay.
10:09:45AM The ayes have it unanimously.
10:09:46AM Also need a motion to receive and file the documents.

10:09:51AM I have a motion by Mr. Suarez, second by Ms. Montelione.
10:09:54AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
10:09:55AM The ayes have it unanimously.
10:09:58AM Thank you very much for attending, sir.
10:10:00AM Item number 39, the legal department to appear and provide a
10:10:04AM report.
10:10:05AM >> Thank you, Rebecca Kert, legal department.
10:10:08AM I am here on item 39, which was a request for us to appear
10:10:11AM and provide a report regarding the city's current regulation
10:10:15AM of massage parlors and providing recommendations for
10:10:18AM amending specific sections of the City of Tampa code address
10:10:21AM possible human trafficking in massage parlors.
10:10:25AM I'd like to thank Council for bringing this issue to
10:10:27AM attention.
10:10:28AM Always you may be aware, within the last couple years, human
10:10:30AM trafficking and massage parlors have received statewide and
10:10:34AM nationwide attention, in particular, the state of Florida
10:10:37AM and the federal government has had comprehensive laws
10:10:40AM regarding human trafficking within the last couple of years.
10:10:42AM As you might have also heard in the news, last month, the
10:10:46AM state rescinded S massage licenses for being illegally
10:10:52AM obtained and investigating hundreds of others.
10:10:54AM State officials have stated they believe that these crimes
10:10:57AM also have ties to human trafficking.
10:10:59AM In the city currently, the city does not have any specific

10:11:03AM regulations, business regulations for massage parlors.
10:11:07AM Internally we have started a working group to coordinate
10:11:10AM efforts with all the different areas to make sure that we're
10:11:13AM using the tools that we already have on the books, most
10:11:15AM effectively.
10:11:16AM And that is, we have on municipal prosecutor.
10:11:20AM We have met with the attorneys for the police department,
10:11:23AM code enforcement, business, tax, business regulations,
10:11:28AM zoning, and our public nuisance abatement board.
10:11:33AM We're also examining different communities and how they've
10:11:36AM approached this illegal activity that occurs in some massage
10:11:41AM parlors.
10:11:41AM We've also met with Katherine O'Donniley from Holland &
10:11:46AM Knight and Sasha Lohn-McDermott, who is a statewide
10:11:49AM prosecutor who focuses on human trafficking issues.
10:11:52AM They have been advocating to raise attention and awareness
10:11:52AM to this issue.
10:11:54AM And if I may, I'd like to have Katherine O'Donniley speak to
10:11:57AM you for just a couple of minutes to provide a little bit of
10:11:58AM background about what this issue is.
10:12:02AM >> Good morning, Council.
10:12:03AM Katherine O'Donniley with Holland & Knight.
10:12:05AM I just want to give a little more background on the issue
10:12:09AM for reference.
10:12:10AM Just kind of help establish the link between massage, some

10:12:15AM massage parlors and human trafficking.
10:12:17AM One resource available, the Polaris project reports on human
10:12:23AM trafficking.
10:12:24AM This is just a quote from one of their reports, specifically
10:12:27AM dealing with massage parlors.
10:12:29AM It says women in brothels disguised as massage parlors, live
10:12:37AM on-site where they're confined and coerced into providing
10:12:41AM commercial sex to six to ten men a day, seven days a week.
10:12:44AM These locations often known as Asian massage parlors or
10:12:47AM Korean massage parlors operate as commercial front brothels
10:12:52AM that claim to offer legitimate services such as massage.
10:12:55AM But they actually primarily provide commercial sex.
10:12:58AM The victims are most often Asian women, both documented and
10:13:03AM undocumented.
10:13:04AM Massage parlors frequently operate in strip malls and office
10:13:09AM buildings.
10:13:10AM I was approached by law enforcement about how the city could
10:13:16AM perhaps create some complementary efforts to the work that
10:13:20AM they are doing.
10:13:21AM And they also provided some kind of warning signs to look
10:13:25AM out for those type of activity, that we should consider, as
10:13:29AM we look at the code.
10:13:30AM First, typically find foreign women who are living on-site.
10:13:36AM Typically in one room, with mattresses on the floor.
10:13:40AM Also typically find that the businesses are open 24 hours a

10:13:45AM day.
10:13:45AM Seven days a week.
10:13:47AM And often law enforcement will find open offers of
10:13:53AM prostitution when they go into these establishments.
10:13:56AM And on that, I would note that from that perspective,
10:14:00AM there's really a challenge because these women are really,
10:14:04AM they're victims of human trafficking, and so, from the law
10:14:08AM enforcement side of things, going after the prostitution
10:14:12AM charges can be quite challenging.
10:14:14AM What I've been told is that the woman will not speak when
10:14:18AM they're brought in.
10:14:19AM So those efforts can be really challenging.
10:14:22AM And that's why we're looking at how the city might from a
10:14:26AM business operation standpoint complement those efforts.
10:14:30AM So, with that I'd like to give it back to Rebecca to just go
10:14:34AM through a couple of specific changes.
10:14:40AM >>REBECCA KERT: Thank you.
10:14:41AM Council, as stated, the state and federal government has
10:14:46AM recently revamped their approaches towards the criminal
10:14:50AM access of human trafficking, where we believe the city can
10:14:52AM be most effective is in assisting them is to regulate some
10:14:57AM of the business practices of the massage parlors that are
10:14:59AM conducive to human trafficking and the illegal activity.
10:15:03AM What we would propose to you, City Council, if you agree, is
10:15:06AM that we create a business regulation for massage parlors

10:15:11AM that prohibits 24 hours of operation by setting times that
10:15:14AM they can operate, as well as prohibiting residing at the
10:15:17AM business.
10:15:17AM As I said earlier, we currently have a number of tools that
10:15:20AM are already on the books.
10:15:22AM Prostitution is illegal, if we make a number of prosecution
10:15:26AM cases, we can bring them to the public nuisance abatement
10:15:29AM board, where they can put additional restrictions on the
10:15:32AM business.
10:15:32AM But I do believe this will be an additional effective tool.
10:15:36AM It will be a first step if City Council is willing to do
10:15:39AM that, then we'd be happy to come back with an ordinance,
10:15:41AM either to a workshop or first reading.
10:15:43AM You can have additional input.
10:15:45AM And we are continue internally to review this issue and we
10:15:49AM will see if you pass this, if it is effective and we will
10:15:53AM continue to monitor that and if there's any additional
10:15:55AM changes in the future, we'd be happy to come back and make
10:15:59AM additional changes.
10:16:00AM But we believe this is a good starting point.
10:16:02AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.
10:16:03AM Mr. Suarez?
10:16:04AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, Chair.
10:16:05AM Thank you, Ms. Kert and Ms. O'Donniley, who is no longer
10:16:09AM going to be with Holland & Knight.

10:16:10AM But that's okay.
10:16:12AM You're there for right now.
10:16:13AM We appreciate the information that you provided.
10:16:15AM And all the discussions, as the maker of the original
10:16:18AM motion, the discussions that we have had boss with yourself,
10:16:21AM with Ms. Low McDermott, with Ms. O'Donniley, the police
10:16:26AM department, the city attorney's office, we have talked about
10:16:28AM several different ways in which we can use our power here as
10:16:32AM opposed to a criminal type of offense.
10:16:36AM Please explain why it's better to do through business
10:16:39AM regulation this type of, I guess this type of enforcement as
10:16:47AM opposed to land use.
10:16:49AM >> Well, from a land use perspective, what you're generally
10:16:52AM looking at is compatibility.
10:16:54AM And the illegal behavior that makes these places so
10:16:58AM troubling is not compatible anywhere, but it's also not
10:17:01AM something that you can say okay, it's compatible if you put
10:17:04AM it 2500 feet away.
10:17:06AM What a business regulation let's us do, it let's us go after
10:17:09AM the business operator himself.
10:17:11AM Or herself.
10:17:12AM And one of the problems that you have with the human
10:17:17AM trafficking cases is that they're very difficult to make
10:17:20AM those cases.
10:17:21AM Because you may have a lot of prostitution cases, but tying

10:17:24AM that back to the actual business and imputing that knowledge
10:17:29AM can be problematic.
10:17:31AM So what we have talked about at least from a starting point
10:17:34AM is trying to eliminate some of the business practices that
10:17:37AM are conducive to that illegal behavior.
10:17:39AM And that's why we think that this will be an effective tool.
10:17:43AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: And I think part of our discussions
10:17:45AM previously were, we'd want to do it on a piecemeal basis as
10:17:51AM opposed to trying to put every specific rule in because it's
10:17:54AM easier for us to attack as to what their reaction would be,
10:17:58AM as opposed to trying to do it the other way around, where we
10:18:01AM are reacting to their activities in terms of getting around
10:18:04AM our regulation, correct?
10:18:06AM >> Correct.
10:18:07AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Okay.
10:18:10AM Unless there are other Councilmembers that would like to ask
10:18:12AM questions on this, I'd like to make a motion to bring this
10:18:15AM back at our next regular Council meeting.
10:18:18AM I should say would be November 1st, would that be enough
10:18:22AM time, Ms. Kert?
10:18:24AM >>REBECCA KERT: Yes, that would be fine.
10:18:27AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: I'll make that motion.
10:18:28AM If there are any other questions.
10:18:30AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Suarez and a
10:18:32AM second by Ms. Montelione.

10:18:35AM If you're finished, Ms. Montelione would like to have the
10:18:38AM floor.
10:18:39AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
10:18:40AM I have stepped out of the room for a moment.
10:18:44AM I have a couple of questions.
10:18:46AM Do we currently do inspections or code enforcement -- Jake
10:18:53AM Slater was out in the hallway and I didn't have a chance to
10:18:56AM ask him -- do we inspect these establishments by going
10:19:02AM inside the establishment and seeing that all health codes,
10:19:07AM regulations?
10:19:08AM Maybe that's more department of health than our code
10:19:11AM enforcement, but do you know of any inspections that occur?
10:19:19AM >>REBECCA KERT: I know the police department is regularly
10:19:21AM doing investigations to these establishments.
10:19:24AM But I think what we're proposing now, is, we're going to do
10:19:28AM a coordinated effort.
10:19:29AM We're starting a working group to make sure that we have our
10:19:32AM code enforcement, our law enforcement, our zoning, building
10:19:36AM code violations because a lot of these places have people
10:19:39AM residing on premises.
10:19:40AM That can be a zoning violation, that can be a building code
10:19:43AM violation.
10:19:43AM And now that -- we're starting, I'm not saying we have never
10:19:48AM been doing anything before.
10:19:49AM But I think a coordinated effort is what we're going to be

10:19:53AM doing coming forth.
10:19:56AM I believe that's going to be the most effective way to
10:19:58AM approach it.
10:20:00AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: And I'm going to reference a television
10:20:06AM show, a documentary about human trafficking.
10:20:10AM And there's an officer in San Francisco who has been doing
10:20:15AM this for 25, 35 years, and they go back -- they've done two
10:20:20AM different episodes, one like 10 years ago and one now.
10:20:24AM So it's an issue that just doesn't seem to be corrected or
10:20:28AM go away.
10:20:30AM Even with the best efforts.
10:20:32AM So, I guess what concerns me is we're just getting started
10:20:36AM now -- I know.
10:20:40AM I know you said it doesn't mean we haven't been doing
10:20:43AM anything in the past.
10:20:44AM But I'm happy to see -- let me put it this way.
10:20:48AM I'm happy to see that we are doubling up the efforts and
10:20:51AM that we're putting more emphasis on this issue, because
10:20:56AM there is an underground that exists that most of us just
10:21:00AM aren't aware of.
10:21:01AM And it's very sad to see what happens with some of the
10:21:07AM individuals.
10:21:08AM So, I just applaud the efforts and thank you for bringing
10:21:13AM this up.
10:21:14AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay.

10:21:15AM Let me say this.
10:21:17AM I think that you're on the right track and I commend
10:21:21AM Mr. Suarez and Mr. Reddick and the rest of the
10:21:23AM Councilmembers on this issue.
10:21:25AM What it is, I believe that you're saying, Ms. Kert, is that
10:21:28AM this would be something like, not quite, but somewhat like
10:21:35AM zonings of alcohol, where you have an hours of operation and
10:21:39AM you have no living on premise.
10:21:40AM And what happened in the past, although you had the tool and
10:21:43AM the investigation of those items were done, the problem was
10:21:47AM problematic because the people wouldn't talk about
10:21:51AM themselves.
10:21:51AM So you have to then go around and find a new way of doing
10:21:55AM things and I understand what you're saying and what you're
10:21:59AM doing.
10:21:59AM I commend the police department for trying to do what they
10:22:02AM were trying to do, although they weren't successful in many
10:22:05AM cases because it's hard when you're under duress, stress,
10:22:09AM threatening and you're maybe more than likely an illegal,
10:22:14AM not all the time, but you are, and you're threatened with
10:22:17AM deportation, you're threatened with so many things that, and
10:22:20AM a lot of aspects in life we don't deal with on a daily
10:22:23AM basis, the rest of us.
10:22:25AM So we have to understand the type of situation that they're
10:22:27AM under and I commend you and the rest of the individuals for

10:22:31AM bringing this up.
10:22:31AM And I think it's coming back in November, if I recall,
10:22:34AM November 1st.
10:22:35AM Again, thank you very, very much.
10:22:43AM I have a motion by Mr. Suarez, second by Ms. Montelione.
10:22:47AM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
10:22:50AM Opposed nay.
10:22:51AM The ayes have it unanimously.
10:22:51AM Thank you all very much for attending.
10:22:53AM Okay.
10:22:58AM We go now to item number 40.
10:23:01AM I believe this was brought up for Ms. Castor and
10:23:09AM Mr. Estevez.
10:23:11AM And whoever else from the administration would like to start
10:23:17AM the run down.
10:23:18AM >> Good morning, Council.
10:23:20AM First I'd like to start with my sincere apology for not
10:23:22AM being here two weeks ago.
10:23:24AM It was a misunderstanding on my part.
10:23:26AM I thought that what you were looking for from the police
10:23:29AM department was technological specifics of the system.
10:23:32AM And that's why you certainly wouldn't want to see me in that
10:23:36AM instance.
10:23:37AM I had our experts here, captain Baumeister and Detective
10:23:40AM Estevez.

10:23:42AM So I apologize.
10:23:44AM I certainly would have been here if I thought that that's
10:23:47AM who you wanted to see.
10:23:48AM What I want to do is just go through some of the questions
10:23:52AM that were raised on that day.
10:23:54AM And try to give you some answers.
10:23:57AM And then answer any questions that you may have.
10:24:00AM Now, our options with this camera system are to turn it off,
10:24:06AM to leave it running and then just look to it for historical
10:24:10AM data in the event that a crime occurs or there's some type
10:24:13AM of incident that someone wants to see that particular video.
10:24:17AM We can also leave it running and monitor it for specific
10:24:21AM events.
10:24:21AM Say there's a large event in Curtis Hixon Park, something
10:24:24AM along those lines.
10:24:25AM Or we could monitor it 24 hours a day, seven days a week,
10:24:29AM which obviously would be very personnel intensive and costly
10:24:32AM in that aspect.
10:24:33AM The cameras, they're 119 cameras total.
10:24:37AM There's 25 that are on the police department inside and
10:24:40AM outside for security that replaced an antiquated system we
10:24:45AM have there.
10:24:46AM And we don't anticipate any movement on those.
10:24:48AM There are 16 cameras that are on five mobile camera systems
10:24:55AM that can be put whenever we would like.

10:24:58AM And those are the ones just to give you a visual, if you see
10:25:01AM up on the interstate, those orange trailers with the camera
10:25:06AM systems up in the air, in essence, that's what those five
10:25:09AM mobiles consist of.
10:25:10AM There are 78 remaining cameras in the downtown area.
10:25:15AM And there are 20 fixed and 50 that have the pan, tilt and
10:25:21AM zoom, and have to be manually operated by the officers.
10:25:26AM I'll show you crime maps for the month of may, June and
10:25:30AM July, preceding the RNC.
10:25:32AM And just show you some of the crimes that occurred that
10:25:37AM could have been captured on camera and we could've used
10:25:41AM those cameras in that particular, those particular
10:25:44AM instances.
10:25:45AM That's for the month of May.
10:25:49AM And just to give you an idea, the majority of the crimes are
10:25:54AM in the circles.
10:25:56AM And the diamond shaped is all larceny.
10:26:05AM Those are usually petty crimes.
10:26:07AM Someone stole a bike, someone stole a cell phone.
10:26:11AM That's the vast majority in the downtown area.
10:26:14AM In a couple of these maps, there are very few robberies.
10:26:17AM And then there's one of them has an auto theft in it.
10:26:20AM Which if I could brag a little bit, during the three months,
10:26:27AM there was only one auto theft in the downtown area.
10:26:31AM >> Councilmember Reddick.

10:26:35AM >>FRANK REDDICK: The blue dots, are those indicating the
10:26:37AM cameras?
10:26:38AM >> Yes, sir.
10:26:38AM I can make these maps available to you.
10:26:40AM So those are the crimes, as you can see, the downtown area
10:26:46AM doesn't have a lot of criminal activity in it.
10:26:49AM But those are the crimes that occurred within camera view.
10:26:52AM The maintenance contract, $164,000 a year.
10:26:58AM That's approximately 9% of the cost of the system.
10:27:02AM The average industry standard is 15%.
10:27:08AM So, it's a little bit lower than the industry standard for
10:27:12AM any kind of a technology solution.
10:27:16AM We could reduce that or eliminate that by doing it inhouse.
10:27:20AM But you know, that can be a great savings or it can be a
10:27:24AM cost, depending on what needs to be done during that year.
10:27:27AM So that's something that can be explored in depth.
10:27:31AM And then there's an additional $21,000 licensing fee.
10:27:35AM That's paid, that has to be paid each year.
10:27:39AM Cost of moving these cameras.
10:27:41AM There are three elements to the camera.
10:27:44AM There's the camera, there's the radio and there is the
10:27:47AM antenna.
10:27:47AM And the fixed cameras are relatively inexpensive.
10:27:53AM They're about $500 apiece, and then for the pan, tilt, zoom,
10:27:58AM those are about $5,000 apiece.

10:28:00AM About $3,000 for electrical hookups with these.
10:28:03AM And then if you want to put them on a pole that's not
10:28:07AM existent, that can be up to $10,000 for that cost.
10:28:11AM >> Excuse me one second, chief.
10:28:13AM Council one Mulhern?
10:28:16AM >>MARY MULHERN: Chief, as you're giving us that break down
10:28:18AM of the cost, is that all included in your 164,000 a year?
10:28:21AM Or is that additional?
10:28:23AM >> No, that's the maintenance cost.
10:28:25AM What I'm trying to give you are prices in the event that you
10:28:28AM want these cameras moved somewhere, or if we want to put
10:28:31AM additional cameras up.
10:28:35AM That would basically be, right, would be the price of it.
10:28:39AM Now --
10:28:43AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: As you're speaking, it's really difficult
10:28:45AM for to us write down all these costs and what they're for.
10:28:49AM I can say Councilwoman Mulhern and Councilmember Reddick
10:28:52AM were seriously trying to write this down.
10:28:54AM Do you have this on a piece of paper printed so we don't
10:28:58AM have to sit here and add things up?
10:29:01AM >> Sure.
10:29:01AM I'll make that -- I can give you the overarching prices as
10:29:13AM well.
10:29:13AM Like, for example --
10:29:15AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: That's why I'm asking for it now, I don't

10:29:17AM know about the rest of us, but I'm not looking forward to
10:29:21AM bringing this back once again and talking about it again, so
10:29:25AM if we have it now, we can look at it now, we can discuss it
10:29:28AM now.
10:29:28AM Rather than you giving it to us and then we see something
10:29:32AM that we want you to come back and talk about it another
10:29:34AM date.
10:29:35AM I mean, we can have one of the aides come up.
10:29:38AM >> If you have them come up, sure, you can have them come up
10:29:42AM and make a copy and I can give you that.
10:29:45AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you so much.
10:29:46AM That will be very helpful.
10:29:49AM >> Okay.
10:30:05AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Maybe we can move on to other discussion
10:30:07AM while we are waiting.
10:30:08AM >> Well, I can give you the...
10:30:13AM Basically, if you want to move a -- a camera's about $1,200
10:30:26AM for the labor to move it, if it's within inside the mesh
10:30:32AM network.
10:30:33AM The way they explained this to me, with the mesh network,
10:30:37AM when you think about when you were younger and rode in the
10:30:40AM bumper cars.
10:30:40AM That is an electrical mesh over that area.
10:30:43AM So no matter where you go, you have that electrical current.
10:30:46AM In essence he is that's what this mesh system, except it's

10:30:50AM more directional.
10:30:51AM The antennas point to the direction.
10:30:54AM But if you go outside of that, then obviously we have to
10:30:57AM build that mesh network, and that's very expensive.
10:31:01AM So if we were to add a camera outside of the mesh area, that
10:31:05AM can be anywhere from 20 to $30,000.
10:31:07AM For all of the infrastructure, the maintenance, I mean the
10:31:12AM labor and the camera itself.
10:31:15AM Garage cameras, a question was brought up about putting,
10:31:18AM moving some of these cameras into the garage.
10:31:21AM According to Jim Corbett, a plan is being implemented as we
10:31:26AM speak, just about finished, to put cameras in the garages.
10:31:31AM Those cameras would cover, my understanding, the entry and
10:31:34AM exit into the garages.
10:31:37AM And then they would be aimed at the cashiers and the pay
10:31:41AM stations.
10:31:42AM So, if there was a request to have them on specific floors,
10:31:46AM those types of things, then that would have to be determined
10:31:50AM by the location of the garage.
10:31:52AM If it's inside the mesh area, it's a little bit cheaper.
10:31:55AM Outside, obviously, it's very expensive.
10:31:57AM The blocking and masking came up.
10:32:00AM There is the ability to block out on the stationary cameras.
10:32:05AM You can block out areas that can't be viewed.
10:32:09AM And then on the pan, tilt, zoom, you can do that as well,

10:32:13AM either by redirecting the movement of the camera, or
10:32:16AM actually going in and putting something over, blocking out
10:32:20AM the lens from the inside.
10:32:22AM So that is possible as well.
10:32:26AM The moving the cameras to remote locations or using them as
10:32:32AM portable cameras, for example, for illegal dumping, it's not
10:32:36AM feasible to use the mobile cameras that we have right now
10:32:40AM because they're obvious.
10:32:44AM They're huge trailered cameras, so you can't put them
10:32:47AM somewhere unless you're going to use them as a deterrent
10:32:49AM because I doubt seriously anybody is going to come and
10:32:52AM illegally dump in front of one of those cameras.
10:32:54AM Although it's not out of the realm of possibility.
10:32:57AM But there are the covert cameras that can be purchased for
10:33:00AM about $500.
10:33:01AM Those are battery operated.
10:33:03AM And they also can send an alert to our communications
10:33:07AM section in the event, they're motion activated, and in the
10:33:11AM event they're activated, they take a series of still
10:33:14AM pictures and those can go back to our communications
10:33:18AM dispatch location, where they can send a unit out to
10:33:22AM investigate that.
10:33:23AM So, moving the cameras from the current system to be used
10:33:28AM remotely is not a good use of those cameras.
10:33:32AM But we can purchase other cameras to be used in a covert

10:33:38AM capacity.
10:33:38AM Now, the Ybor City, we have cameras in Ybor City area.
10:33:43AM There are 12 of those cameras that are along seventh avenue
10:33:46AM between 15th and 21st.
10:33:48AM And that is an internet system as opposed to a mesh system.
10:33:54AM And the internet system requires laying of cable because
10:33:57AM there is a hard wire from one camera to the other.
10:34:01AM So if we were to move those or add on to those in the Ybor
10:34:04AM City area, we would have to pay that cost of laying the
10:34:07AM wires and the cost for the cameras.
10:34:09AM There is a cost for the, for the internet service itself.
10:34:15AM That's $20,000 for the internet service haven't and then
10:34:19AM there's a $10,000 a year fee for that internet service.
10:34:23AM So that cost wouldn't come into play in Ybor City because
10:34:27AM it's already down there.
10:34:28AM If we were to put a series of cameras in another location
10:34:33AM that were internet based, then we would have to pay internet
10:34:36AM companies for that initial installation.
10:34:39AM There are pluses and minuses to both, the internet is
10:34:44AM hard-wired, so there's no disruption of service.
10:34:48AM But the I.T. groups, IT and I specifically would rather work
10:34:54AM with the mesh cameras because there's much less maintenance
10:34:57AM of the hard wires and cabling that they would have to deal
10:35:00AM with.
10:35:00AM As far as having a policy or an ordinance dealing with

10:35:04AM these, the only one we were able to find was in
10:35:06AM Philadelphia.
10:35:07AM And that dealt with the actual choice of the camera system
10:35:10AM and the implementation or installation of it.
10:35:13AM It didn't really have anything to do with the ongoing use of
10:35:17AM those cameras.
10:35:18AM And we couldn't find any, any other law enforcement agency
10:35:22AM that had that.
10:35:24AM As far as having a committee to overlook these, the use of
10:35:28AM these cameras, my personal suggestion would be to wait until
10:35:31AM the first year is up, and see how they've been used, how the
10:35:37AM effective they have been.
10:35:40AM And then look to make some decisions on how to use them
10:35:42AM going into the future.
10:35:45AM Now, the artificial intelligence, I think there's some
10:35:47AM misunderstanding with this the what the artificial
10:35:50AM intelligence does on these cameras, is it detects unusual
10:35:54AM behavior.
10:35:55AM And that doesn't mean specific, you know, if I've got a
10:35:59AM backpack on and I'm looking around and I'm making movements,
10:36:04AM it doesn't detect that.
10:36:05AM What it detects, and I'll give you two examples.
10:36:09AM One, there's a camera that's on the Crosstown express, down
10:36:13AM by beneficial.
10:36:15AM And that particular camera last a section of fencing that's

10:36:20AM within its view.
10:36:21AM Well, it sent an alert for unusual activity because there
10:36:25AM was an individual that was climbing the fence.
10:36:27AM And that doesn't occur in a normal 24 hour progression.
10:36:32AM So it sent an alert for that.
10:36:34AM Another one is, there was a boat that docked down in the
10:36:39AM Channelside district on a daily basis, at a specific time.
10:36:44AM And then individuals would traverse that dock during that
10:36:46AM time.
10:36:47AM Well, there was an individual that came down there walking
10:36:50AM up and down the dock at a time when that boat didn't
10:36:53AM normally dock there, so there was an alert sent for that.
10:36:57AM So I don't want there to be confusion that it's, we're
10:37:00AM looking at someone's specific behavior in a crowd and
10:37:04AM there's an alert that goes forward.
10:37:06AM It's just normal activity that occurs at a 24 hour basis,
10:37:11AM anything that occurs that is out of the ordinary, then an
10:37:14AM alert will be sent.
10:37:15AM So that's the artificial intelligence portion of it.
10:37:21AM And lastly, my suggestion would be again that we look at
10:37:25AM this at the end of the year, and then develop some
10:37:29AM strategies based on that.
10:37:31AM Or six months, whatever everyone feels is more appropriate.
10:37:36AM And with that I will answer any questions.
10:37:40AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have this order, Ms. Montelione,

10:37:42AM Ms. Mulhern and Mr. Cohen and Mr. Reddick.
10:37:47AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: I was trying to catch new between so that
10:37:49AM we didn't get too far, sometimes want to address something
10:37:54AM that you've said at the moment.
10:37:57AM And that was -- there are a couple things here.
10:38:01AM When talking about the committee to review, that I
10:38:07AM suggested, your suggestion would be to wait a year.
10:38:14AM Well, if after that year we set up the committee, that means
10:38:20AM that we're already committing today to having these cameras
10:38:28AM be on that point in time.
10:38:30AM And reason the year came up was because I know the
10:38:32AM maintenance is tree for one year.
10:38:35AM >> Correct.
10:38:36AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: So, in the motion that I had made was,
10:38:40AM you know, let's do an evaluation during that period while we
10:38:44AM have these cameras for a year.
10:38:49AM And see how effective they are.
10:38:51AM And then decide after that one year when now we'll have to
10:38:57AM start paying for maintenance, whether or not we need to keep
10:38:59AM them.
10:39:00AM So, if we don't have a committee in place during that year,
10:39:04AM we're not going to have what I was trying to get at, and
10:39:07AM that would be a member of TPD, an unbiased person from the
10:39:14AM public, or from the ACLU or however that committee is
10:39:17AM structured, and legal department.

10:39:22AM So, I'm looking at using that one year as a test evaluation
10:39:30AM type period.
10:39:32AM So if we don't have any review during that time period, I
10:39:36AM don't see how we can get to what I was trying to achieve.
10:39:40AM The other is that I had asked for an evaluation or a study,
10:39:51AM and I know because money is tight maybe we can reach out to
10:39:54AM one of the universities.
10:39:55AM I suggested forensics, maybe these are questions for
10:39:58AM Mr. Shimberg, criminology departments at universities, to
10:40:04AM perform that study for us during that one year period.
10:40:08AM And that way, we could achieve another goal during that one
10:40:16AM year before we start paying for the maintenance.
10:40:18AM When we talked about the location of the cameras, and even
10:40:26AM the crime maps you had put up for us, there aren't a lot --
10:40:34AM there's not a tremendous amount of crime -- there is crime,
10:40:37AM obviously.
10:40:38AM But there's not a disproportionate amount of crime that
10:40:43AM would warrant 24 hour, you know, surveillance of the public.
10:40:48AM >> Monitored surveillance.
10:40:50AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Monitoring.
10:40:51AM And we have other areas of town where, as you know, there is
10:40:55AM higher crime statistics, where if we're going to justify
10:40:59AM having peoples behaviors monitored, then I would suggest
10:41:07AM that we, you know, to really protect the public, if that's
10:41:10AM the reason we have these cameras, is to protect the public,

10:41:13AM we do it in areas where we do have a lot of crime.
10:41:16AM And that, even by your own maps, isn't necessarily in some
10:41:20AM of the areas of downtown.
10:41:23AM >> Because I have a little short-term memory issues.
10:41:27AM --
10:41:28AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: That's why I was trying to catch new
10:41:29AM between.
10:41:30AM >> With the committee, we are basically reviewing the
10:41:32AM effectiveness of those as you see displayed through the
10:41:36AM crime maps.
10:41:38AM And there isn't a lot of crime in the downtown area and we
10:41:41AM want to keep that that way.
10:41:44AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: It doesn't have a lot of crime in the
10:41:46AM area before the cameras were mounted.
10:41:48AM >> Right.
10:41:49AM But as more people move into downtown and it becomes more
10:41:52AM robust, then that would be an issue where we could monitor
10:41:56AM and prevent crime, and therefore, need less officers to
10:42:00AM patrol in the downtown area going forward.
10:42:03AM So if there was a committee put together, I don't -- my
10:42:07AM intent was not to wait until 12 months, but maybe up close
10:42:11AM to that, where a decision could be made prior to a bill
10:42:16AM coming in for maintenance or the extended maintenance
10:42:18AM contract being signed.
10:42:20AM And then secondly, if there are other areas where we want

10:42:24AM cameras to be implemented, my position overall is that that
10:42:28AM is so expensive that to move them, that we might as well
10:42:34AM just about for the same cost, put a system in those
10:42:37AM particular areas.
10:42:41AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Okay, so speaking of the cost and also of
10:42:45AM the maintenance contract, we had a conversation yesterday
10:42:49AM about the maintenance contract.
10:42:51AM And that if we were to move some of these cameras, we would
10:42:56AM possibly void the maintenance?
10:42:59AM >> Right.
10:42:59AM As we had that discussion about the business end of it and
10:43:03AM the contractual end of it, that the company, if they move
10:43:07AM those cameras, then it does not necessarily void the
10:43:12AM warranty.
10:43:13AM If we move those cameras, then the maybe Nance and the
10:43:18AM warrant maintenance and warranty is voided.
10:43:25AM >> Is there cost of moving the cameras included on this
10:43:27AM list?
10:43:28AM >> Yes.
10:43:29AM >> But it would be less expensive.
10:43:32AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: But it would void the warranty.
10:43:34AM So the idea that we would move the cameras to me is a
10:43:38AM nonissue because we don't want to void that warranty.
10:43:40AM The warranty to me is more important.
10:43:43AM >> And I think my position, just so I'm not misunderstood,

10:43:46AM is that moving the cameras is cost prohibitive.
10:43:48AM That if we were to put cameras in another location, that the
10:43:54AM cost is just about the same.
10:43:56AM If you're looking at fixed cameras, which are $500 apiece,
10:44:00AM to set up that system, whether it's mesh or internet, that
10:44:05AM the cost of that in a particular area is very high, so it's
10:44:09AM better to put additional cameras in that location than to
10:44:13AM remove them, which is a cost in and of itself, and then
10:44:16AM reinstall them, which is a cost on top of that.
10:44:20AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: There's a term in the construction
10:44:23AM industry called abandon in place, because oftentimes it's
10:44:25AM less expensive to remove a length of pipe or conduit from
10:44:30AM underground that you're no longer using, rather than just
10:44:33AM leave it there and just not use it and not remove it.
10:44:39AM So, in the -- looking, because I'm always concerned about
10:44:44AM cost, and there was a woman who spoke earlier who said that
10:44:48AM the word costs disturbed her because it seemed like we were
10:44:52AM monetizing civil liabilities and monetizing this.
10:44:54AM Cost comes up because I'm very concerned fiscally about how
10:45:01AM we spend taxpayer dollars.
10:45:03AM And it wasn't meant to put a price on our freedom.
10:45:07AM It was meant as a way of protecting the few budgetary
10:45:13AM dollars we have to work with, and that's why cost comes up
10:45:18AM with a lot.
10:45:19AM Just to clarify that.

10:45:20AM But if we have areas of downtown that are relatively safe,
10:45:25AM that we don't have a lot of activity in right now, and your
10:45:29AM concern is that as people move in and as the city becomes
10:45:32AM more robust, then it might be an issue, why not just abandon
10:45:37AM those cameras in place?
10:45:40AM Turn those cameras off.
10:45:42AM We don't need them.
10:45:43AM We don't need them now.
10:45:45AM If we need them in the future, your suggestion, if there's
10:45:47AM some big event that we're concerned about, we could use them
10:45:51AM for that, for a specific event.
10:45:55AM If we were to get another Super Bowl or you know, another
10:45:59AM convention, then we would have the cameras there and we
10:46:05AM could reactivate them.
10:46:06AM So that was another concern of mine.
10:46:09AM And this is for Mr. Shimberg.
10:46:16AM I know that when I speak of a committee, it's very heavily
10:46:27AM laden in legalese.
10:46:29AM Because of protection of peoples civil rights, because
10:46:34AM protection TPD of sensitive information.
10:46:37AM Because -- but all of this is public record, as was
10:46:40AM mentioned previously, correct?
10:46:43AM >> Right, correct.
10:46:46AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: So what's the feasibility of setting up
10:46:48AM of a committee?

10:46:53AM >>JAMES SHIMBERG: Jim Shimberg, city attorney.
10:46:55AM I think the issue here has to do with the administrative
10:47:01AM function, executive function of the mayor and the Council's
10:47:05AM role as the legislative body.
10:47:06AM I think you have the rights to set up a committee.
10:47:10AM And you can ask for reports.
10:47:13AM There's certain things the Council can do and there are
10:47:16AM certain things that the administration can do when -- when
10:47:20AM they come back and ask for appropriations, things like that.
10:47:23AM So, I think you can set up a committee.
10:47:26AM I'm not sure exactly what the charge is going to be,
10:47:30AM Mr. Shelby can weigh in in terms of who's going to be on it,
10:47:35AM things like that, so I think you have the power to do that.
10:47:38AM But is that committee going to report back to you?
10:47:41AM Report back to administration?
10:47:43AM What chief Castor said, they're already monitoring the
10:47:47AM system, and I think they'd be in a position to report back
10:47:50AM towards the end of the year as to whether crime's gone down,
10:47:54AM whether it's gone up, whether it's effective, whether we
10:47:57AM have had a lot of requests for the videos.
10:48:01AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Well, they're being monitored by TPD for
10:48:05AM illegal activity, or you know, to investigate a crime that
10:48:09AM may have already happened, say a theft of an automobile.
10:48:13AM But in referencing the letter from the ACLU, where there's a
10:48:19AM concern of, you know, the individuals who will be monitoring

10:48:25AM the, you know, what training do they have?
10:48:28AM And for what purpose are they reporting behaviors?
10:48:35AM That's one of the functions I would see of the committee.
10:48:38AM I mean, are they being utilized in the way they were
10:48:43AM intended?
10:48:46AM We have a public safety chair, so, I mean, we have a
10:48:52AM committee already.
10:48:54AM >>JAMES SHIMBERG: One other issue which you guys discussed
10:48:56AM several weeks ago in connection with one of the committees
10:48:58AM that Council Capin suggested, is it going to be a fact
10:49:03AM finding committee?
10:49:05AM Recommending type committee?
10:49:06AM Subject to sunshine?
10:49:07AM Things like that potentially you could set up a committee
10:49:10AM where TPD and legal were on the same committee, they
10:49:12AM wouldn't be able to talk to each other outside the context
10:49:15AM of a meeting.
10:49:16AM So we need to be careful and understand exactly what kind of
10:49:20AM committee you're talking about.
10:49:21AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me say that this Council asked me to
10:49:25AM set the five minute rule.
10:49:28AM That's what I'm going to try to do.
10:49:31AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: We didn't state the five minute rule
10:49:33AM during the tree discussion.
10:49:34AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You know.

10:49:36AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: And surveillance cameras.
10:49:40AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Councilmembers doing this.
10:49:41AM And I understand that, so let's say that I erred in the tree
10:49:44AM discussion.
10:49:44AM But I won't from now on.
10:49:46AM We want it, that's how we're going to do it.
10:49:52AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: One last thing then for Mr. Shimberg.
10:49:54AM And it's unfortunately that with a subject as important as
10:49:58AM this, that we're going to limit discussion.
10:50:02AM Mr. Shimberg, I'm sorry that you weren't here last week.
10:50:06AM Looking back at the transcript from when we initially
10:50:12AM approved the cameras, you can see at 10:51:09 a.m. in that
10:50:20AM transcript, you were speaking.
10:50:22AM And at 10:51:32 you said that you were referencing the RNC
10:50:29AM and after we have done all the research and figure out
10:50:32AM financially and otherwise what we proposed the cameras to be
10:50:35AM used for going forward, so it seemed that legal department
10:50:40AM was going to do some research and make a proposal for what
10:50:44AM the cameras were going to be used for.
10:50:47AM And so far, I don't think the legal department has informed
10:50:51AM us of what that plan is.
10:50:52AM We have been asking a lot of questions and deciding for
10:50:56AM ourselves maybe what we want the cameras used for.
10:50:58AM But it appeared in that discussion you were going to tell us
10:51:01AM what the cameras were going to be used for.

10:51:03AM And you also said at 10:51:42, I don't think we're in
10:51:09AM position to address an ordinance when we're not sure how
10:51:12AM we're going to use them at the convention.
10:51:15AM If we come back and report to you an ordinance is necessary,
10:51:19AM we will prepare one.
10:51:21AM So there was that commitment from you, that if we found that
10:51:23AM an ordinance was necessary, you would prepare one.
10:51:26AM >> Well, first of all, I'd like to, as Chief Castor did,
10:51:28AM apologize for the last meeting.
10:51:31AM Because I apologize, haven't gone back and reviewed that
10:51:35AM transcript from March 1st or whenever it was and looked at
10:51:38AM the agenda and saw who was supposed to be here.
10:51:41AM So I apologize for that as well.
10:51:43AM And again, it probably would've been better if the
10:51:46AM administration had come back and given you their
10:51:49AM recommendation as to how the cameras were to be used going
10:51:52AM forward.
10:51:52AM I think essentially that's what Chief Castor did this
10:51:56AM morning.
10:51:56AM She's recommending is, as the mayor said previously, is that
10:51:59AM we keep them in place.
10:52:00AM We have already paid for them.
10:52:01AM We haven't agreed to pay for any additional maintenance yet.
10:52:04AM Let's see how they work over the next year.
10:52:06AM I don't think Chief Castor is recommending, she's not

10:52:10AM recommending her people to be in there monitoring 24/7.
10:52:13AM All year.
10:52:15AM But again, we think that we'd be in a position after, after
10:52:18AM a period of time to come back and show whether the, crime
10:52:24AM statistics are the same, different, whether it's to move
10:52:29AM some cameras to other locations.
10:52:31AM Whether the parking lot camera program has been implemented.
10:52:33AM There's a lot of issues.
10:52:35AM Again, I apologize for what I said back on March 1st.
10:52:38AM I know that that was, that was what I understood at the
10:52:42AM time.
10:52:42AM But, at this point, I think the administration's
10:52:46AM recommendation is that, keep the cameras in place.
10:52:48AM Like I said, we've already paid for them.
10:52:51AM We haven't agreed to do any additional maintenance.
10:52:54AM Before that's done, it's going to come back to Council.
10:52:56AM Council does have a right to way in on policies and
10:52:59AM considerations, and welcome you to do that, today during
10:53:05AM this meeting or whenever you want to.
10:53:07AM But at this point, we're not recommending and ordinance and
10:53:10AM we're not recommending anything other than what Chief Castor
10:53:13AM said.
10:53:14AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: And I had asked Ms. Brickhouse to be here
10:53:18AM to address what Mr. Reddick had talked about, the illegal
10:53:22AM dumping in our communities.

10:53:24AM So I don't know if Mr. Reddick was going to ask about that,
10:53:28AM but I just wanted to acknowledge that Ms. Brickhouse is
10:53:31AM here.
10:53:32AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay.
10:53:32AM We go to Ms. Mulhern, then Mr. Cohen, Mr. Reddick, and
10:53:36AM Mr. Suarez.
10:53:38AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10:53:39AM I think this discussion is, is too little, too late.
10:53:46AM And I would like to ask at the end for some advice from our
10:53:50AM City Council attorney, if there's anything, if Council
10:53:52AM wished -- I don't think that this Council in the last
10:53:57AM discussion we had showed any intention of not keeping
10:54:00AM cameras.
10:54:01AM They're talking about decisions that I think are
10:54:04AM administrative decisions, if we're going to have cameras,
10:54:08AM where they should go.
10:54:09AM But I would like to take the discussion back to where it
10:54:12AM should have been on the day we approved these.
10:54:15AM This contract, because we did approve an open ended contract
10:54:21AM that hasn't even begun yet for maintaining these cameras.
10:54:26AM So this Council in March approved these cameras.
10:54:28AM I don't even know when the contract will come up.
10:54:31AM That's my first question.
10:54:33AM >> What you approved, there were two contracts.
10:54:36AM What you approved was the purchase of the system.

10:54:38AM Once that system is put in place, up and running, and the
10:54:43AM Tampa Police Department and the City of Tampa are satisfied
10:54:45AM with that product, that's when the maintenance contract
10:54:49AM began.
10:54:50AM >>MARY MULHERN: But that hasn't begun yet.
10:54:51AM >> That's right.
10:54:52AM Well you couldn't possibly have approved the maintenance
10:54:54AM contract prior to approving the contract that purchased the
10:54:58AM cameras.
10:54:59AM >>MARY MULHERN: So I just wanted to clarify that because
10:55:01AM things are worse than I would even think because the
10:55:07AM contract for maintenance for these cameras hasn't even
10:55:10AM begun.
10:55:10AM So the opportunity for this Council to weigh in, we don't
10:55:15AM even know when that will be.
10:55:18AM >> To clarify, the system was purchased, the money was
10:55:22AM appropriated --
10:55:24AM >>MARY MULHERN: We purchased the system.
10:55:25AM But the maintenance cost.
10:55:27AM >> It comes with a years maintenance.
10:55:29AM >>MARY MULHERN: Right.
10:55:29AM And that start date has not begun yet.
10:55:32AM >> It starts as soon as TPD and the company agree that the
10:55:35AM system's been properly implemented and fully paid for.
10:55:38AM I don't think that has happened yet.

10:55:39AM So at that point, a year maintenance comes with the purchase
10:55:42AM that you previously approved.
10:55:44AM >>MARY MULHERN: I understand that.
10:55:45AM Here's my point.
10:55:48AM Councilman Cohen and I think probably all my fellow
10:55:50AM Councilmembers, two weeks ago, said this is really an
10:55:54AM important issue, it's weighing the public safety benefit
10:55:59AM against essential rights.
10:56:01AM Constitutional rights.
10:56:02AM The right to privacy, the right to be let alone.
10:56:05AM Then we got into the we's of discussing should we keep
10:56:12AM them?
10:56:13AM Where should they go?
10:56:14AM No case has been made for why we should have these cameras.
10:56:17AM I didn't even vote for these cameras to be here for the
10:56:20AM convention because no one presented a case to us that these
10:56:23AM are necessary.
10:56:24AM So, at the last meeting, I shared what the ACLU had provided
10:56:32AM us, which is meta analysis, Councilwoman Montelione, you do
10:56:40AM a great job with all the details but we don't need to do
10:56:43AM studies over the next year because the studies are in.
10:56:45AM These cameras do not deter crime.
10:56:48AM We had the experts from Tampa Police Department, Captain
10:56:51AM Baumeister and Detective Estevez.
10:56:54AM I asked them, do these deter crime?

10:56:57AM They said no.
10:56:58AM They move it.
10:56:59AM So if you put a camera up, all it does is cause the crime to
10:57:03AM go somewhere else, as a deterrent.
10:57:06AM So then, the only answer to that is more cameras.
10:57:10AM So then we get into the position of, we do -- we are being
10:57:14AM watched everywhere we go.
10:57:15AM It's such a Pandora's box, and we haven't discussed it.
10:57:21AM We have not weighed or been convinced that we should have
10:57:24AM security cameras.
10:57:25AM So, I don't even see the point of discussing where they're
10:57:29AM going to go.
10:57:30AM I think this Council needs to talk about, do we want this
10:57:35AM policy?
10:57:35AM Do we want surveillance?
10:57:38AM And all the questions are great questions, but the reality
10:57:41AM is, you can put a committee together.
10:57:44AM You're going to have the watchers watching the watchers.
10:57:47AM There's no way.
10:57:49AM You open this up to surveillance in the public realm and
10:57:56AM there's no way to stop it.
10:57:58AM So the -- I would like to know, I guess Chief Castor, do you
10:58:05AM have some data?
10:58:06AM Does anybody have some data that shows that security cameras
10:58:11AM actually have stopped crime?

10:58:15AM >> I disagree with the fact that they don't deter crime.
10:58:18AM It may be specifically someone's unaware that there's a
10:58:21AM camera in that location and may commit a crime.
10:58:23AM But once they're aware that there's video surveillance in
10:58:26AM there, then it does deter crime.
10:58:29AM And everyone when we first began our focused approach
10:58:33AM towards crime prevention, in 2003, people said you're just
10:58:37AM going to move it to other locations throughout the city.
10:58:40AM And that is not true.
10:58:41AM That has not happened.
10:58:42AM We have the maps that show the red grids throughout the City
10:58:46AM of Tampa.
10:58:47AM And we started out with I believe close to 140, and now
10:58:52AM we're down into the double digits in the City of Tampa.
10:58:55AM And that's not moving crime from one place to the other.
10:58:58AM That's doing away with crime.
10:58:59AM So, I disagree --
10:59:02AM >>MARY MULHERN: Because of the security camera?
10:59:04AM >> No, I'm not saying security cameras.
10:59:06AM I'm just saying that you can reduce crime.
10:59:08AM It's not pushing it from one location to another.
10:59:11AM And I have seen a lot of research on security cameras and
10:59:16AM talked to other chiefs in other locations, Chicago, for
10:59:19AM example, that wholly support their camera systems and are on
10:59:23AM a yearly basis adding cameras to those locations because

10:59:27AM they see it as very effective for the safety of their
10:59:31AM communities.
10:59:32AM >>MARY MULHERN: Well, I would again just want to ask you and
10:59:36AM legal and everyone on Council to at least read the research
10:59:39AM that was provided and very easy to read from the ACLU.
10:59:44AM And there's study after study, and the most telling one was
10:59:48AM in London, where they did a study of their own system.
10:59:52AM One year, 1,000 cameras, one arrest.
10:59:57AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Okay, I'm sorry that we're passed the
10:59:59AM five minutes.
11:00:00AM We go now to Mr. Cohen.
11:00:02AM >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
11:00:04AM It's always nice to see you, chief.
11:00:06AM Thank you for being here.
11:00:07AM I also want to thank the police department that gave us the
11:00:12AM demonstrations of the cameras.
11:00:13AM I thought that was very informative.
11:00:15AM And as always, very professional.
11:00:17AM And I appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else did as well.
11:00:20AM My concern about this is, really following up where
11:00:25AM Councilwoman Montelione and Councilwoman Mulhern left off.
11:00:30AM And it's particularly I think about the issue of unintended
11:00:34AM consequences.
11:00:35AM The point was made by the ACLU this morning, it was
11:00:39AM confirmed by Mr. Shimberg today that these are public

11:00:42AM records under chapter 119, these films.
11:00:45AM From the cameras.
11:00:47AM >> Correct.
11:00:49AM >>HARRY COHEN: So that would mean that they could be asked
11:00:52AM for anonymously, these films.
11:00:55AM That they could be published.
11:00:59AM And I was wondering, I was going to ask whether or not
11:01:01AM another law enforcement agency would have to try to get a
11:01:06AM subpoena or a warrant in order to ask you for a copy of the
11:01:09AM tapes.
11:01:10AM But if they're public record, it would seem to me that
11:01:15AM immigration and naturalization service could ask for the
11:01:18AM copy of the tapes.
11:01:20AM So the personal revenue service, the IRS could ask for a
11:01:23AM copy of the tapes.
11:01:25AM They basically would be available to anyone that wanted them
11:01:28AM to review, correct?
11:01:29AM >> Correct.
11:01:31AM >>HARRY COHEN: And then the other issue is that if anybody
11:01:33AM in the public could ask for the tapes, theoretically a
11:01:36AM criminal could ask for the tapes, a stalker could ask for to
11:01:40AM the tapes and observe a certain sidewalk over and over again
11:01:43AM to look for patterns or other nefarious activity, correct?
11:01:49AM >> Uh-huh.
11:01:50AM >>HARRY COHEN: I guess that one of the difficulties I have

11:01:54AM with this is that I'm not -- I'm not really as concerned
11:01:58AM about your -- I'm not concerned about what I saw the police
11:02:02AM department doing with the cameras during the demonstration.
11:02:07AM I'm concerned, A, about what unintended consequences could
11:02:12AM come from others getting a hold of this footage.
11:02:15AM And by the way, I guess someone could get a hold of it and
11:02:18AM publish it on the internet and broadcast pictures of people
11:02:21AM walking around downtown.
11:02:23AM And I just, I think because we approved this so quickly, we
11:02:30AM never got into the fundamental issues underlying whether or
11:02:33AM not we want to go down this road as a society.
11:02:39AM And I absolutely concede the point that's been made already,
11:02:42AM that at this point, it's absolutely I think within the
11:02:46AM administration's purview to determine how these cameras will
11:02:49AM be used, although I would also say that year is not a very
11:02:54AM long time and City Council and we'll be back with this
11:02:59AM contract for maintenance or licensing fees relatively
11:03:01AM quickly.
11:03:02AM But I guess to get back to what Councilwoman Mulhern was
11:03:06AM saying about the conversation we should've had, the
11:03:09AM conversation we should've had is, where else are these films
11:03:12AM going to go?
11:03:13AM And what else are they going to be used for?
11:03:15AM And that's the thing that has got me very concerned.
11:03:18AM The idea of putting them in places like illegal dumping

11:03:22AM sites for code enforcement violations and as an extra
11:03:28AM security measure in parking lots was very, very appealing to
11:03:31AM me and is very appealing to me still because I think that
11:03:35AM it, it protects us from some of these larger questions.
11:03:39AM And that's really the basis of where my concern is about
11:03:44AM these cameras, is that they have all sorts of uses and
11:03:48AM unintended consequences, particularly because they're a
11:03:51AM public record, that I don't think anybody necessarily
11:03:54AM thought of when we voted to authorize them originally.
11:03:58AM >> Can I respond to that quickly?
11:04:01AM >>HARRY COHEN: Sure.
11:04:01AM >> First, whether anybody likes it or not, anything that you
11:04:04AM do in public space has the potential of being out on video
11:04:08AM and on YouTube.
11:04:09AM Just by personal use of a smartphone, or any other element
11:04:14AM that's out there.
11:04:14AM The reality is, everyone has a camera today.
11:04:17AM And in our public records request system, we try to
11:04:23AM discourage any fishing trips by virtue of charging for that
11:04:28AM time and effort, and the request has to be time, date and
11:04:32AM location specific.
11:04:33AM So someone's got to know what they're looking for before
11:04:36AM they go into that.
11:04:36AM And anything that depicts criminal behavior and is an open
11:04:42AM investigation is not subject to public records laws.

11:04:45AM So, our camera system is not just something that anybody can
11:04:52AM have 24/7 and be able to publish that whenever they want, as
11:04:56AM opposed to someone with their particular smartphone camera
11:04:59AM that can post any behavior, any place at any time.
11:05:04AM >>HARRY COHEN: But the person with the smartphone is not
11:05:06AM obligated to produce the footage of what they've filmed when
11:05:11AM someone else makes a request for it.
11:05:14AM But you are, even if you do charge for the time that it
11:05:17AM takes to assemble that material.
11:05:19AM >> That's correct.
11:05:20AM But they would have to know what they were looking for prior
11:05:22AM to.
11:05:23AM >>HARRY COHEN: Well, you know, I think -- I stand by my
11:05:29AM concern.
11:05:30AM I think that ultimately we're going to see how this works
11:05:34AM out over the next year.
11:05:36AM And obviously we'll evaluate it as we move along.
11:05:39AM There may be some, without having a formal committee, there
11:05:43AM may be a way that we can more informally weigh in on it.
11:05:49AM But I just want to close, because I know I'm coming on my
11:05:51AM five minutes and others want to speak.
11:05:53AM But I just want to close by saying that there is a larger
11:05:57AM issue here.
11:05:58AM And Councilwoman Mulhern mentioned the right to be left
11:06:02AM alone.

11:06:03AM The right to be left alone free of government intrusion into
11:06:06AM the most banal and innocuous of activities goes way back to
11:06:11AM the beginning of the founding of our republic.
11:06:17AM And I think it is something we should all be very cognizant
11:06:20AM of and all examine very closely as we work through how we're
11:06:25AM going to deploy these cameras.
11:06:27AM One day, in the future, when none of us are here any more
11:06:31AM and there's a new police chief and a different mayor, you
11:06:34AM know, we will have been the ones that sort of put us down
11:06:39AM this road.
11:06:40AM And I just think it's very important that we examine all of
11:06:43AM the consequences, intended and unintended, of the decisions
11:06:48AM that we make on this matter.
11:06:49AM >> And I believe that this camera system strikes that
11:06:52AM balance, in that it lies individuals to conduct their
11:06:56AM everyday business in the streets of Tampa, but then if, and
11:07:01AM from a public safety standpoint, if there is a crime that
11:07:04AM occurs, then we're able to use that video footage in order
11:07:07AM to solve that and potentially prevent any further crime, at
11:07:12AM least from that particular individual, and get the message
11:07:14AM out so the criminal that this is a safe environment
11:07:18AM downtown, where people are free to go out and conduct
11:07:20AM themselves in any lawful manner that they see necessary.
11:07:26AM So I believe that the system strikes that balance.
11:07:29AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick?

11:07:31AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:07:32AM Councilman, I believe we might be on YouTube with the
11:07:37AM cameras for a day or so.
11:07:39AM Take a look.
11:07:40AM Chief, let me start here.
11:07:45AM When do you anticipate TPD and the company reaching some
11:07:50AM type of contract agreement?
11:07:53AM >> I would say within the next month.
11:07:56AM That everything, that punch list will be signed off on and
11:08:01AM we should -- and I can get specifically -- that's an issue
11:08:05AM of making sure that we are getting the best service for the
11:08:11AM federal dollar.
11:08:12AM And we're not going to sign off on the system until we are
11:08:15AM 100% satisfied.
11:08:17AM And it's just minor issues that others may overlook, but
11:08:20AM we're going to ensure that it's working appropriately before
11:08:23AM we sign off on it.
11:08:26AM >>FRANK REDDICK: I have always, my position always been, I
11:08:30AM never been against protecting, violating one's privacy
11:08:36AM rights at all, but I brought to discussion last time we met
11:08:41AM about illegal dumping, and the problems we're having illegal
11:08:48AM dumping, particularly in East Tampa.
11:08:52AM You're familiar with that.
11:08:54AM We have environment protection.
11:08:57AM >> Yes, sir.

11:08:58AM >>FRANK REDDICK: And let me assure you.
11:09:00AM I tried to tell this Council last week, that there's two
11:09:03AM cameras in East Tampa now for illegal dumping that we
11:09:06AM brought through the TIF funds, for East Tampa partnership.
11:09:09AM And you're aware, Chief, that the cameras have been working
11:09:16AM and helping to stop some of the illegal dumping problems
11:09:21AM because several people have been cited and arrested for some
11:09:25AM of the illegal dumping in East Tampa community.
11:09:28AM And that's the reason I've been pushing and advocating for
11:09:33AM utilizing the cameras for illegal dumping and place them in
11:09:38AM high areas, where there's high concentration of crime.
11:09:40AM And that was my only justification for supporting, deploying
11:09:44AM the cameras anywhere.
11:09:46AM I cited, and Ms. Brickhouse, you can correct me if I'm
11:09:51AM wrong, but when I looked at the study from solid waste
11:09:54AM department, about illegal dumping and when I see seven out
11:09:59AM of ten top sites are in East Tampa, there's a problem.
11:10:04AM And if we can deploy a camera to, in that area, in those
11:10:10AM areas where those -- and I cited the areas last week.
11:10:15AM That can help will curb illegal dumping.
11:10:18AM Because if you ride through there and people have to
11:10:20AM actually see it, and I had intended to go through and take
11:10:26AM pictures, because I rode through an area just the other day
11:10:29AM and about 45 tires sitting out on the side of the road.
11:10:35AM Somebody dumped that out there in the morning time.

11:10:38AM And as you go further in certain areas, you see somebody
11:10:42AM than drop almost like living room, entire room of furniture
11:10:47AM on the side of the road.
11:10:48AM And this constantly in certain areas of East Tampa, and the
11:10:52AM colleagues, Suarez can vouch for, if you go in an area where
11:10:58AM Williams Park and Williams magnet school, William magnet
11:11:03AM school is located, if you go in that curve any day of the
11:11:08AM week, the fence is broken, there's all kinds of tires.
11:11:12AM All kinds of TVs, all kind of plat tress thrown in that
11:11:17AM little curve area.
11:11:18AM Somebody is putting that out there.
11:11:20AM And even though solid waste go out and pick this stuff up,
11:11:23AM somebody's going back out and putting it out there again.
11:11:26AM And it's getting, it's become a public nuisance.
11:11:31AM And I was just hoping that if we can deploy any of these
11:11:37AM cameras, that we can use them for illegal dumping.
11:11:40AM We can use them to deter some crime and yes, I gray.
11:11:44AM A lot of people don't know there's cameras out there.
11:11:46AM A lot of people don't know cameras in East Tampa.
11:11:50AM But if they can go and someone's going to monitor this, can
11:11:58AM discover the person or those individuals that are doing
11:12:00AM something wrong, and they can be arrested or be cited,
11:12:05AM charged for these incidents that takes place, that helps
11:12:11AM tremendously.
11:12:12AM And that's my only justification, and only reason that I

11:12:17AM want to see something happen.
11:12:19AM I look at this document, thick paper, that was passed
11:12:28AM around.
11:12:29AM I believe you handed this out.
11:12:30AM >> Yes, sir.
11:12:32AM >>FRANK REDDICK: And I was looking at a comment here, and it
11:12:35AM stated that, and for illegal dumping, something about camera
11:12:41AM can be converted to a convert unit with minimum cost.
11:12:45AM And they called it a pole cam, open forum convert pole cam
11:12:55AM can be utilized for illegal dumping.
11:12:57AM And based on what I'm hearing, reading here, it says,
11:13:03AM converting a battery of these for rapid deployment.
11:13:07AM It sound like, this is inexpensive.
11:13:10AM Could you tell me what type of camera, do you know what type
11:13:14AM of cameras are deployed in East Tampa?
11:13:17AM >> Yes, sir.
11:13:19AM >> I've never seen one.
11:13:20AM >> That's the point, they're covert, you're not supposed to
11:13:23AM see them.
11:13:24AM The cameras that we can utilize for dumping because as you
11:13:27AM know, that is an issue in East Tampa.
11:13:29AM And I believe that we have reduced the number of illegal
11:13:33AM dumping sites, but the problem is, that any, too many in
11:13:38AM your neighborhood.
11:13:38AM But we can use those covert cameras, small cameras, they're

11:13:42AM called gaming cameras, that are approximately $500 apiece.
11:13:46AM And we can utilize those in those illegal dumping areas
11:13:50AM where we can get the evidence to bring charges against these
11:13:54AM individuals.
11:13:55AM And it may move it to another location, which in that case
11:13:59AM it does with the illegal dumping.
11:14:01AM But we can then redeploy that $500 camera in that particular
11:14:06AM location as well.
11:14:07AM So that's a more practical solution than moving cameras from
11:14:13AM downtown that are very overt and individuals will be able to
11:14:17AM see them and again it's cost prohibitive.
11:14:20AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.
11:14:21AM I know my time is up, but I would definitely hope that
11:14:24AM consideration be given towards those type of cameras for the
11:14:28AM illegal dumping in the community.
11:14:30AM >> And we're looking at expanding that in the East Tampa.
11:14:33AM Before they were paid for, purchased by the East Tampa
11:14:36AM group, but we'll certainly look at that from the police
11:14:39AM department's budget and purchasing some additional cameras.
11:14:43AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.
11:14:44AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Commissioner Suarez?
11:14:46AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.
11:14:47AM Chief Castor, I have a question about the cameras in Ybor
11:14:50AM City that we currently have.
11:14:51AM Do we have a policy in terms of what the police officer

11:14:56AM looking up those cameras can and cannot look at in terms of
11:15:01AM where they pan, where they change, anything like that?
11:15:04AM >> No.
11:15:05AM We don't -- the majority of these cameras, they only have
11:15:08AM the ability to see the street level.
11:15:11AM So the ideas of panning up and observing different activity
11:15:16AM is a little bit of a misnomer.
11:15:19AM They do have the ability to pan, tilt and zoom, but the vast
11:15:22AM majority of the activity, as it is at the street level, and
11:15:28AM then everything that is looked upon is recorded for
11:15:33AM historical value.
11:15:33AM So, we don't have any -- the only policy that we have, if we
11:15:38AM are trying to get into, is the possibility of officer
11:15:41AM misconduct, is we have overarching policies that require
11:15:48AM specific conduct from officers that would cover these
11:15:50AM incidents as well.
11:15:54AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: In terms of the cameras that are in downtown,
11:15:56AM how many of them are tilt and zoom?
11:16:00AM I'm trying to remember those numbers.
11:16:01AM >> There are 20 that are fixed and 58 that are pan, tilt and
11:16:05AM zoom.
11:16:06AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Okay.
11:16:07AM You know, there's a couple things that I have issue with
11:16:10AM about this particular issue.
11:16:12AM Which is this.

11:16:13AM When we agreed to these conditions the first time, it was
11:16:20AM that we wanted the contract in order to help deter any kind
11:16:24AM of crime that might happen because we were expecting quite a
11:16:27AM few protesters, quite a few people in the streets.
11:16:30AM That did not happen and didn't come to fruition.
11:16:33AM And the cameras, although were there, probably did not deter
11:16:40AM the small number of people that were here in terms of any
11:16:43AM other kind of illegal activity.
11:16:46AM >> Correct.
11:16:46AM But also in addition, we utilized those for traffic control
11:16:49AM and crowd management, were again the overarching reason for
11:16:53AM getting those for the RNC.
11:16:57AM >>MIKE SUAREZ: I understand that.
11:16:58AM I know myself gave much credence to your acknowledgment as
11:17:03AM to what this event was going to be like.
11:17:07AM And without a doubt, we understood what happened in
11:17:10AM Minneapolis.
11:17:10AM We understood that you needed to have tools in order to make
11:17:13AM sure that the repeat performance is not done in Minneapolis
11:17:18AM here.
11:17:19AM You did a great job, as did all of your, all the members of
11:17:23AM the other services that we borrowed.
11:17:25AM When we talk about pervasiveness though in terms of cameras,
11:17:31AM we have a lot of cameras still there.
11:17:33AM We don't have that many people there on a daily basis, as we

11:17:38AM were expecting during the RNC.
11:17:40AM We have got 58 pan and zoom cameras.
11:17:45AM One of the problems that we have is that as a public entity,
11:17:48AM we are held at a higher standard.
11:17:51AM And I know that you mentioned that there's really no
11:17:54AM specific policy concerning the use of those cameras by your
11:17:58AM officers.
11:17:58AM And of course there is a matter of trust that we have in
11:18:01AM terms of the professionalism of the officers and, you know,
11:18:07AM going forward, what they use these for.
11:18:09AM In addition to every tool that is ever given to the police,
11:18:12AM whether it's surveillance, tape recording someone, for every
11:18:18AM one of the new types of tools that are given, you still have
11:18:24AM a, a real higher standard to meet because, you know, on some
11:18:31AM things you're going to have to answer to a court based on
11:18:34AM probable cause and some other issues that might come up.
11:18:37AM For us, we want to make sure that the public trusts us when
11:18:41AM we are using these cameras.
11:18:43AM That's the problem.
11:18:43AM The issues that Ms. Mulhern and Mr. Cohen brought up are
11:18:49AM well taken.
11:18:50AM Part of the reason why during our discussion the first time
11:18:53AM in March, we approved the cameras, is that both you and
11:18:57AM Mr. Shimberg had mentioned that you were more than willing
11:18:59AM to come and talk to us about the use of those cameras after

11:19:03AM the RNC.
11:19:05AM Now, I understand that in terms of where we're at at this
11:19:08AM point, we have to trust you in terms of what you said the
11:19:11AM first time.
11:19:12AM And we do.
11:19:14AM But I do believe that the public is owed a higher duty by us
11:19:19AM to show them that the cameras that we are using are not
11:19:22AM abused.
11:19:23AM Now, how we do that, whether it's a committee, as
11:19:26AM Ms. Montelione has suggested, or other issues, and actually
11:19:29AM one of your officers had suggested putting images on a web
11:19:33AM site, delayed ten minutes or 15 minutes, to show people that
11:19:37AM this is what we are looking at at any one time.
11:19:40AM I think that would go a long way to actually bringing back
11:19:44AM the trust that people have for the police.
11:19:46AM We do not want to be, and we do not want to create,
11:19:50AM regardless of what a lot of people say, a police state in
11:19:53AM which every move is monitored and then used against you for
11:19:57AM no good reason.
11:19:59AM We have to show that trust in order for us to continue to
11:20:03AM have the backing of the public.
11:20:07AM I believe that, and I think you mentioned that you don't
11:20:09AM think we should have, or I should say wait until a year goes
11:20:13AM by before we create a policy.
11:20:15AM I don't think that we have that luxury.

11:20:17AM I think that our duties as City Council, I think the mayor's
11:20:22AM duty as the elected executive, and your duty as the police
11:20:26AM chief is that we do have to come up with a policy now to
11:20:28AM show that we are not going to abuse this particular type of
11:20:33AM use of cameras.
11:20:34AM And reason why is that, 25 cameras is one thing.
11:20:38AM Many people and I believe the ACLU will probably say 25 is
11:20:41AM still too many cameras.
11:20:43AM But when we're talking about a huge number, we're talking
11:20:45AM about double that, plus the 20 fixed, we do have to come up
11:20:50AM with a policy.
11:20:51AM And I for one will push this administration to make sure
11:20:55AM that if it is not put in place, a policy shown to us,
11:20:58AM whether it is a public policy that shows those images on a
11:21:02AM web site, or those images shared in some other fashion, or a
11:21:07AM written policy that says this is what we expect of our
11:21:11AM officers, this is only the place that they can tilt and zoom
11:21:16AM at any particular time, whether it means that you still have
11:21:18AM to answer to court in terms of probable cause, but I still
11:21:21AM think that we have that higher standard to meet.
11:21:23AM I will keep pushing to make sure that we get, if not a
11:21:28AM policy, an ordinance in place to make sure that the police
11:21:31AM have that guidance, because I think that it's not about
11:21:37AM Chief Castor, who I think all of us in this room respect
11:21:41AM greatly, or Mr. Shimberg, who I have a personal affection

11:21:44AM and respect for.
11:21:46AM But, I think it really, it really talks to the future of the
11:21:50AM city and the future Councils and future mayors and future
11:21:55AM chiefs, that are going to have these tools available to
11:21:57AM them, but with no policy in place, that they can abuse those
11:22:02AM tools.
11:22:03AM So, again, Chief Castor, thanks so much for all this
11:22:06AM information.
11:22:06AM It was a lot of great information.
11:22:08AM I thank you very much for letting us take a look at what
11:22:12AM those cameras do.
11:22:13AM And then thirdly, thank you very much for being here today.
11:22:16AM I know that there was a big mix up the last time we had, we
11:22:20AM wanted to talk.
11:22:21AM But we appreciate you coming here.
11:22:23AM And I hope that at some point in the future, you will have a
11:22:26AM policy in place for us and I would suggest to try and get
11:22:29AM something done within the next 30 to 60 days, because I
11:22:33AM think that that would be very helpful to us, so that we can
11:22:37AM go forward with, with other things besides --
11:22:41AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Capin?
11:22:43AM >> If I could answer real quick.
11:22:45AM I didn't say wait a year to develop a policy.
11:22:48AM I said that I didn't think that there was a need for a
11:22:50AM policy that dictated the officers' behavior because we have

11:22:54AM those policies in place.
11:22:56AM But we certainly will explore a policy that will dictate the
11:23:01AM use of the camera system.
11:23:04AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Capin?
11:23:06AM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.
11:23:06AM A lot of questions were brought up here.
11:23:15AM I will stick with my last comment at the last City Council,
11:23:22AM that privacy is a [inaudible] modern history is 1453 and
11:23:33AM 1492.
11:23:34AM In 18th century is when thinkers, the concept of privacy was
11:23:41AM explored.
11:23:41AM That's 300 years.
11:23:48AM Privacy, individually and self-determination were foreign
11:23:54AM concepts.
11:23:55AM We all know we're being watched -- thank you.
11:23:58AM You're being watched all the time.
11:24:00AM Anybody in this room that does not realize that is living in
11:24:07AM a Fantasyland.
11:24:09AM But, we hear, we failed in our last meeting here because the
11:24:18AM motion in April was to, the workshop to draft an ordinance
11:24:23AM regarding the use of cameras.
11:24:26AM That's what we are here.
11:24:28AM We're legislative, not administrative.
11:24:30AM And the concept that the cameras are saying what we needed
11:24:39AM to work on, and I agree with Councilwoman Mulhern,

11:24:43AM Councilman Suarez, is what is the best use of the
11:24:47AM information technology provides?
11:24:49AM How do we regulate it?
11:24:51AM It needs to be regulated.
11:24:52AM We need to let our citizens know that we are watching out
11:24:56AM for them, that there is no abuse.
11:24:58AM We all know that your policies and your reputation is
11:25:03AM stellar in this city because of that.
11:25:06AM But we hear, as you said, work on the policies, maybe add to
11:25:11AM the policies, but we here really do need to, you know, do
11:25:19AM citizens have the right to monitor how government manages
11:25:24AM public spaces?
11:25:24AM Yes.
11:25:25AM We do.
11:25:26AM We need to let them know.
11:25:28AM We need to let them know that we do.
11:25:30AM And the debate should have, and that is what we should be
11:25:35AM legislating, is the information, what is done with this
11:25:42AM information?
11:25:42AM Now, on here, this paper you gave us, number five, it says
11:25:46AM an ordinance came up, but no particulars.
11:25:48AM That's where we failed.
11:25:50AM The City Council talked about putting an ordinance in place
11:25:57AM and talked about the government -- governance of the
11:26:00AM systems -- system.

11:26:03AM See second attached about the notes taken at City Council.
11:26:06AM There is no notes there.
11:26:07AM But it was noted that, and we went on to -- how many
11:26:13AM cameras, how much they cost, how much to move them, without
11:26:16AM really looking at how are we going to regulate this in order
11:26:20AM for our citizens to have comfort with, that we are doing,
11:26:27AM performing due diligence on behalf of them.
11:26:31AM I understand that the 30 day overriding, for instance,
11:26:37AM public records was brought up.
11:26:38AM And if it is passed 30 days, there is no more record.
11:26:44AM There is no more film.
11:26:46AM Is that correct?
11:26:49AM >> I thought we had to keep it for four years.
11:26:51AM 30 days is the requirement.
11:27:00AM It will be taping over.
11:27:02AM 30 days is a requirement.
11:27:04AM Will be taping over if there's anything that there's
11:27:06AM criminal activity or anything that's used for evidence, then
11:27:09AM it will be kept longer.
11:27:11AM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Okay.
11:27:12AM Thank you.
11:27:14AM So there are unintended-- that's what everyone here is
11:27:20AM grappling with, was the unintended consequences that was
11:27:23AM brought up.
11:27:23AM You know, we go back to when we passed the request to

11:27:29AM purchase.
11:27:29AM And the statements that you and Mr. Shimberg made about
11:27:34AM speaking later about the use of the cameras.
11:27:37AM Thible 0 one that wasn't here was the head administrator,
11:27:40AM which is our mayor, and we all have recognized that he is
11:27:45AM the one in charge of administrating these cameras and
11:27:49AM administrating what we here legislate.
11:27:56AM Therein lies what I feel we have City Council and I think
11:28:00AM Ms. Mulhern, Mr. Suarez, Mr. Cohen, Ms. Montelione, all of
11:28:05AM us up here feel that we need to work with your policies.
11:28:12AM Maybe that's a start, because Mr. Shimberg made a statement,
11:28:15AM Mr. Shimberg, you said earlier today that you did not
11:28:20AM recommend an ordinance.
11:28:23AM That was your statement.
11:28:24AM Can you tell us why?
11:28:30AM >>JAMES SHIMBERG: I think I said I didn't recommend an
11:28:32AM ordinance at this time.
11:28:34AM But I'm not put being myself in your shoes.
11:28:37AM Whatever you got to choose to do.
11:28:41AM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Maybe not at this time today, but I think we
11:28:44AM need to look into putting something together that would
11:28:48AM regulate, along with the policies that the Chief Castor has
11:28:54AM in place, either those are sufficient or we need to add to
11:29:01AM it.
11:29:01AM But we really do need to regulate how this information is

11:29:05AM used, and who uses it, and there's so many questions.
11:29:12AM I will tell you this.
11:29:13AM I'm going to bring up -- when DNA first came out, the fear
11:29:17AM was infringe on privacy and they were right.
11:29:25AM But then there was so many prisoners, even some on death row
11:29:30AM that were exonerated because of DNA.
11:29:34AM So the opinion that is changed.
11:29:37AM But the federal government put in place regulations to
11:29:40AM protect the public from abuse.
11:29:44AM That's what we need.
11:29:45AM Not that -- and you know a lot of time people talk about
11:29:49AM cameras.
11:29:49AM And cameras have been used both ways, where we looked at the
11:29:53AM public, or the public's being watched.
11:29:56AM But then the public has always watched law enforcement and
11:30:00AM caught abuses.
11:30:01AM The Vietnam war, if it were not for cameras that brought
11:30:06AM that forth, that war, it came to an earlier stop because of
11:30:11AM cameras.
11:30:12AM So, we cannot vilify cameras.
11:30:17AM They're here.
11:30:18AM We have to regulate them.
11:30:19AM We have to make sure that the public safety is in place, and
11:30:27AM that is where I think we failed, and I hope that we can work
11:30:31AM from there and come up with an ordinance working with you,

11:30:35AM Chief Castor and your policies and legal.
11:30:38AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Montelione?
11:30:40AM Second round, five minutes each.
11:30:43AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
11:30:43AM I'm sorry, Mr. Shimberg, for beating you up like this.
11:30:47AM But this is the first -- this is the transcript from when we
11:30:51AM first talked about approving these cameras.
11:30:53AM And it was myself asking the questions of you, and you
11:31:00AM state, you can ask us to come back with a draft ordinance
11:31:04AM after the RNC.
11:31:05AM That's fine.
11:31:06AM But I'm saying right now we don't have the information to
11:31:08AM put in an ordinance.
11:31:11AM Well, it's part of the issue that we're preparing for the
11:31:14AM RNC, that's part of it, yes.
11:31:16AM As a premium of the moment, try and come back with something
11:31:20AM correct.
11:31:20AM Now, this is a transcript, but we specifically, you and I
11:31:25AM had this conversation during that time period -- during that
11:31:30AM first approval when it was a walk-on item.
11:31:33AM That you would come back with a draft ordinance after the
11:31:36AM RNC, when there was proper time to be, thought given and you
11:31:42AM know, you said then that you didn't know what to put in the
11:31:45AM ordinance because it was a walk-on item and last minute.
11:31:49AM But now after all this time, after all this discussion,

11:31:52AM after all this weighing in, I think there's plenty of
11:31:55AM information of what we're looking for in an ordinance.
11:31:57AM And a lot of times when ordinances are brought to us, we ask
11:32:02AM for an ordinance to be crafted, you come to us, one of your
11:32:04AM staff comes to us and talks to us about what it is we would
11:32:07AM like to have in that ordinance.
11:32:08AM You go back, you craft something, you come back to us with
11:32:11AM it.
11:32:11AM This is the only time with this discussion of cameras that
11:32:13AM you haven't come back to us with anything, after we have
11:32:16AM discussed this ad nauseam.
11:32:18AM It's pretty clear I think what we want in an ordinance.
11:32:22AM We want to be able to regulate how those cameras are used.
11:32:26AM We want to be consulted on where those cameras are located.
11:32:32AM Some of us don't want the cameras at all, so you know, I'm
11:32:36AM not sure they would support even the crafting of an
11:32:39AM ordinance.
11:32:39AM But you know, I'm a realist.
11:32:41AM I'd rather deal with how do we go forward and the cameras
11:32:49AM are there.
11:32:50AM So, unless we all agree to pass an ordinance that says those
11:32:55AM cameras have to come down, you know, I don't know where else
11:33:00AM to go.
11:33:01AM Those are the options.
11:33:02AM Either the cameras come down, they get shut off period.

11:33:05AM Or we come back with an ordinance to regulate.
11:33:07AM I think more of us are going to look at regulation than
11:33:12AM bringing them down.
11:33:13AM And shutting them off.
11:33:15AM So those are the choices.
11:33:17AM And that's your charge, to come back with an ordinance,
11:33:19AM addressing the concerns that you've heard here today, last
11:33:23AM week, even though you weren't here, you could watch it on
11:33:26AM the video.
11:33:26AM Or the first time we talked about putting, approving these
11:33:29AM cameras.
11:33:30AM So, and I'm sorry for getting up set, but it's very
11:33:33AM frustrating that the administration, that your department,
11:33:38AM with all the research you have in hand to prove that we
11:33:40AM needed the cameras, and all of the RNC ordinances that we
11:33:45AM passed, can't come up with something to bring to us to
11:33:49AM present to us as on ordinance.
11:33:50AM And just a couple of quick things I want to touch on.
11:33:56AM I asked about constructive liability.
11:33:58AM And that should be something that needs to be addressed in
11:34:02AM that ordinance, to protect us from having to defend
11:34:05AM ourselves in court.
11:34:06AM That we knew about something happening and we did nothing to
11:34:09AM stop it.
11:34:09AM So that's a concern.

11:34:11AM And I also asked about the cost of software to block or mask
11:34:15AM the buildings, because as was mentioned earlier by one of
11:34:18AM the folks from the public who spoke, was that peering into
11:34:23AM buildings.
11:34:25AM But there is software available from my discussions with
11:34:29AM detective Estevez that we can purchase software that would
11:34:34AM enable us to block out specific structures.
11:34:36AM And in all the cost estimates in the, that you've provided
11:34:41AM us, Chief Castor, I don't see the cost for that software and
11:34:45AM I would like to see that.
11:34:47AM And you know, I can't agree more with Councilman Suarez when
11:34:51AM he said that it's not that we don't trust the current
11:34:53AM administration, that we don't trust Mr. Shimberg or Chief
11:34:56AM Castor or the mayor.
11:34:58AM It's the future generations we're looking at, because we all
11:35:01AM know there are police departments right here in the Tampa
11:35:03AM Bay area that have not been as honest and open and trust
11:35:11AM weather as you have been Chief Castor or our previous
11:35:14AM chiefs.
11:35:15AM And hopefully when you retire, your replacement.
11:35:18AM But, there are -- there is corruption in police departments.
11:35:23AM There are police departments that overstep their boundaries.
11:35:26AM There are police departments that need improvement.
11:35:28AM And just because we're operating at peak efficiency now does
11:35:31AM not mean that five, 10, 15, 20, 25 years from now when this

11:35:35AM ordinance is still in effect that we're going to have the
11:35:37AM police department we have today.
11:35:38AM And I commend you because it really is yours and our
11:35:43AM previous chiefs that formed the police department that we
11:35:47AM have today, but that's not always going to be the case.
11:35:49AM And we, I mean Councilman Suarez put it perfectly.
11:35:54AM And if we are going to have these cameras, I mean the
11:35:57AM private institutions are different, as he pointed out.
11:36:00AM They don't have the responsibility of the public that we
11:36:04AM have.
11:36:05AM I was at Walgreen's last night sitting in the parking lot,
11:36:09AM there's a big red sign on the building, surveillance cameras
11:36:11AM in use.
11:36:12AM Warning people that you come into our store, you sit in our
11:36:15AM parking lot, you're being watched.
11:36:18AM And you know, maybe we have to put something on our web
11:36:20AM site.
11:36:20AM Come to Tampa, just be aware you're being watched.
11:36:24AM So, those are my concerns.
11:36:28AM And hopefully we'll be able to move this discussion forward
11:36:32AM instead of being in the stagnant place we are now.
11:36:36AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you Ms. Montelione, Mr. Mulhern?
11:36:39AM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:36:40AM I personally don't want that to be our slogan, come to Tampa
11:36:43AM where you're being watched.

11:36:45AM And I think one of the, I mean, ironically we gave Chief
11:36:50AM Castor and Chief Forward and the police department and
11:36:56AM Mr. Shimberg commendation for the way that they handled the
11:37:00AM RNC, which is what we purchased these cameras for.
11:37:05AM But it turns out we didn't need, seem to need any, much of
11:37:12AM that gear that we spent $50 million on, because we do have
11:37:15AM an excellent police force.
11:37:17AM And it wasn't cameras and riot gear, it was our officers and
11:37:25AM commitment to public safety and personal freedom that made
11:37:28AM sure that during the convention, we didn't have, we had only
11:37:31AM two arrests.
11:37:32AM So, this is what really bothers me today.
11:37:39AM And I said it before.
11:37:40AM There's been no evidence, this is a huge issue.
11:37:45AM Public safety versus the right to privacy, the right to walk
11:37:49AM around and not be surveilled.
11:37:52AM To not have government.
11:37:54AM We're the government.
11:37:55AM We're talking about government surveillance.
11:37:58AM We're not Walgreen's.
11:38:00AM We are not a private company that's trying to protect our
11:38:03AM business.
11:38:03AM We're the government.
11:38:04AM So we have to weigh whether this public safety alleged need
11:38:12AM outweighs that right to privacy.

11:38:14AM And there has been not one shred of evidence presented to
11:38:18AM us.
11:38:20AM We have everybody here talking about how we want to protect
11:38:23AM the public and how we can have the cameras and, but we'll do
11:38:27AM all these, take all these extra steps, we'll write an
11:38:31AM ordinance, we'll watch the police.
11:38:33AM We'll have a committee.
11:38:33AM You can't.
11:38:34AM You can't prevent abuse from happening.
11:38:38AM Once you give the tools away, you give the camera away, you
11:38:42AM give the ability to spy, you can't imagine every
11:38:48AM possibility.
11:38:48AM And you're talking about giving it to the government.
11:38:53AM So the public has -- yeah, I have a smartphone with a camera
11:38:58AM on it.
11:38:59AM And my constituents do too here.
11:39:02AM We don't have an entire system of surveillance and a police
11:39:06AM department and a legal team and cameras all over the city.
11:39:10AM So that idea is ridiculous.
11:39:14AM So I will not ever approve any appropriation, just as I have
11:39:19AM not, for any camera.
11:39:21AM And I have to make the point that, was made by, I can't
11:39:26AM remember which, was Captain Baumeister or Detective Estevez,
11:39:32AM but cameras don't stop crime.
11:39:34AM Cops do.

11:39:34AM So every penny that we're going to spend on all of this
11:39:40AM could be used instead for personnel, for training, for all
11:39:44AM kinds of community policing.
11:39:46AM There's all kinds of things we can do.
11:39:48AM So arrests -- and it's not fair to the public for us all to
11:39:53AM sit here talking about these cameras as if the assumption
11:39:56AM that they really are in the benefit of public safety, even
11:40:01AM regardless of invasion of privacy.
11:40:03AM We don't know that.
11:40:05AM And I am convinced that data has shown that they are not.
11:40:10AM And illegal dumping is a huge problem.
11:40:13AM I know.
11:40:13AM Especially in East Tampa.
11:40:15AM But it will move, and we have been told that by the studies.
11:40:19AM And we have been told that by our police.
11:40:23AM You put the camera up, people eventually figure it out and
11:40:26AM they move somewhere else.
11:40:27AM So maybe you can have enough cameras in East Tampa, but then
11:40:31AM where's it going to go?
11:40:32AM West Tampa?
11:40:33AM Ybor?
11:40:33AM People will find ways to do it.
11:40:35AM You cannot -- cameras can't work unless they're everywhere.
11:40:39AM And I don't think any of us want it.
11:40:41AM And I think that because of this convention, because of this

11:40:46AM grant to buy these cameras, we as public servants, as
11:40:53AM elected officials, have the opportunity to make a policy
11:40:57AM decision about our basic rights to privacy.
11:41:00AM And we should take that very seriously.
11:41:03AM And not just assume that these cameras provide some great
11:41:09AM safety, because they don't.
11:41:11AM The UK spent bill gallons of dollars on cameras and they,
11:41:16AM with their own studies afterwards determined that they
11:41:19AM didn't work.
11:41:20AM And people in London are so disgusted with all those
11:41:25AM security cameras that they throw T-shirts on top of the
11:41:27AM cameras and set them on fire.
11:41:29AM So, you know, those are some unintended consequences, you
11:41:33AM never even know what's going to be out there.
11:41:36AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, Ms. Mulhern.
11:41:37AM Mr. Cohen, you want the floor?
11:41:40AM >>HARRY COHEN: Yeah.
11:41:40AM Very briefly.
11:41:41AM You know, I'm not inclined to support writing an ordinance
11:41:51AM here, because I think that ultimately, we gave that power
11:41:54AM away when we cast this vote a few months ago.
11:41:57AM And I also don't know at this point what good I think can
11:42:03AM come up of a committee.
11:42:04AM But for me, the proof is going to be in the pudding of the
11:42:09AM next year.

11:42:09AM It's going to be in whether or not these should be shown to
11:42:14AM be in any way effective or not.
11:42:16AM And when it comes time to authorize additional costs for
11:42:20AM maintenance and other things in the contract, we can all
11:42:23AM vote on it at that point.
11:42:26AM I want to just piggyback though on one thing -- I thought
11:42:29AM that Ms. Mulhern summed it up very well.
11:42:32AM I want to just emphasize one particular point that she made.
11:42:37AM And that is that the balance between public safety and
11:42:42AM between invasion of privacy is ultimately a weighing.
11:42:45AM It's a weighing of competing very, very important interests.
11:42:50AM And the thing that to me weighs the most against the use of
11:42:54AM these cameras is actually our, are the success of our police
11:42:59AM department in keeping downtown so safe.
11:43:02AM It's to me the statistics about the way that our police
11:43:06AM department has been able to reduce crime in the City of
11:43:09AM Tampa, they really speak against taking actions that are
11:43:17AM more intrusive.
11:43:19AM And that is ultimately the thing that guides me to come down
11:43:25AM really against the use of the cameras in our community.
11:43:31AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Mr. Cohen.
11:43:32AM Mr. Reddick?
11:43:33AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:43:34AM Even though I read a quote in the paper from the mayor
11:43:39AM recently, that the mayor stated it's his decision what to do

11:43:44AM with these cameras, whether they're going to stay downtown
11:43:47AM or they're going to go somewhere else.
11:43:49AM So, it seemed to me that we have limited authority to make
11:43:55AM any decision about these cameras.
11:43:57AM Now, the chief has stated, about a year.
11:44:04AM The chief also stated that they might have a contract in
11:44:07AM place in a month.
11:44:09AM Let me ask our attorney, Mr. Shelby, what options do we have
11:44:22AM in regards to regulating, moving, or deploying these cameras
11:44:28AM in any part of the city?
11:44:31AM What authority do we have?
11:44:33AM >> If I can, Councilman Reddick, to set the context, maybe
11:44:40AM just take a minute or two to read some relevant sections of
11:44:43AM the city charter, because that is what controls.
11:44:47AM I'll begin with section 1.04, the separation of powers.
11:44:50AM And I'll read these just excerpts.
11:44:53AM There shall be a distinct separation of legislative and
11:44:57AM executive powers.
11:44:58AM And except as otherwise herein expressly provided, all
11:45:03AM legislative powers shall be vested in and exercised by the
11:45:07AM City Council and all executive and administrative powers
11:45:11AM shall be vested in and exercised by the mayor.
11:45:14AM Then I'll go to section 2.01, the City Council.
11:45:21AM There shall be a City Council in which all legislative power
11:45:27AM shall be vested.

11:45:28AM Then turning to the mayor, which is section 4.01, and it
11:45:38AM states there shall be a mayor whom all executive power of
11:45:42AM the city shall be vested and who shall be the administrative
11:45:46AM head of the municipal government.
11:45:48AM Responsibility for the proper administration of city
11:45:52AM government shall be solely that of the mayor.
11:45:56AM It also says that the mayor shall be responsible to the
11:46:02AM people of the city for the proper administration of the
11:46:05AM affairs of the city and to that end, his powers and duties
11:46:10AM shall include but not be limited to, and there's a list of
11:46:13AM about 11 items.
11:46:14AM And let me read I think three pertinent sections.
11:46:18AM Subsection 2, which is -- let me start with subsection one
11:46:26AM because that is also relevant.
11:46:27AM The administration and enforcement of all laws, ordinances,
11:46:31AM contracts and franchises.
11:46:32AM 2, the negotiation of all contracts, franchises, acquisition
11:46:38AM and disposition of property.
11:46:40AM And upon the approval thereof, the City Council, the
11:46:46AM executive on behalf of the city of all agreements, leases,
11:46:49AM deeds and other instruments in connection therewith.
11:46:56AM 3, the exercise of direct control and supervision over all
11:47:00AM departments and divisions of the municipal government.
11:47:04AM And five, states the general charge, management, control and
11:47:11AM supervision of all property of the city.

11:47:15AM The last sentence of that section of section 4.01, the mayor
11:47:21AM states that he also makes recommendations of the mayor, may
11:47:34AM deem necessary -- let's see here.
11:47:36AM Provided, however, that nothing herein contained shall
11:47:39AM prevent the City Council in the exercise of its legislative
11:47:43AM functions and powers from calling into consultations the
11:47:46AM boards or departments and other officers and employees of
11:47:49AM the city whenever in the judgment of Council it may be
11:47:52AM necessary.
11:47:54AM But neither the Council nor any member thereof shall
11:47:59AM interfere with the conduct of any department, officer or
11:48:03AM employee in the discharge of his duty.
11:48:06AM So that in and of itself, in a nutshell is what the charter
11:48:10AM says the role is between the administrative and the
11:48:13AM legislative.
11:48:14AM An ordinance can be crafted, but it has to be an ordinance
11:48:17AM that does not micromanage and direct, let's say the
11:48:23AM decision-making and delegate the power of, let's say the
11:48:28AM chief law enforcement officer to be able to deploy assets
11:48:32AM within the city, which would be the discharge of her duty.
11:48:35AM That would be an inappropriate ordinance.
11:48:38AM So there are ordinances that can be crafted, but it has to
11:48:41AM be cognizant of what City Council's role as a legislature is
11:48:45AM and cognizant of what the administration's role is as the
11:48:49AM executive who has the power to enforce that.

11:48:53AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.
11:48:54AM So, that didn't answer my -- he took up all my time.
11:49:02AM [ Laughter ]
11:49:07AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Sometimes even the best make a mistake.
11:49:11AM >>FRANK REDDICK: I have one question.
11:49:13AM Mr. Shimberg, can I ask you a question?
11:49:16AM Do you feel comfortable drafting an ordinance that will meet
11:49:22AM the standard of what was just described?
11:49:25AM That will not be a hindrance?
11:49:30AM >>JAMES SHIMBERG: I agree with everything Mr. Shelby said.
11:49:32AM He accurately described the charter.
11:49:34AM And I think that I might need a little bit more help from
11:49:39AM Council in terms of what you would want to see in the
11:49:41AM ordinance, and then we can go back and make sure it doesn't
11:49:44AM cross the line into administrative functions.
11:49:48AM But that's why I was trying to say back on March 1st,
11:49:52AM Ms. Montelione, that I don't want to draft an ordinance for
11:49:54AM you guys.
11:49:55AM I want you to tell us what you want to do and then we can go
11:49:58AM back and make sure that it's legal, consistent with the
11:50:02AM charter and other factors.
11:50:03AM So I would think I would need a little bit more guidance.
11:50:07AM >>FRANK REDDICK: Then I'm just going to suggest that our
11:50:09AM attorney meet with you in consultation and see if an
11:50:14AM ordinance can be drafted that come back before the Council

11:50:17AM that we can review.
11:50:20AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have Mr. Suarez, and Ms. Capin in that
11:50:23AM order.
11:50:24AM Thank you very much, sir.
11:50:25AM Ms. Capin?
11:50:30AM >>YVONNE CAPIN: I will be last.
11:50:31AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You are last.
11:50:33AM >>YVONNE CAPIN: You know, again, what I said before -- my
11:50:38AM mic, I always forget that I think I'm loud enough.
11:50:42AM What I said before, that you know, again, you know,
11:50:49AM Councilwoman Mulhern, it was referred to again that we
11:50:53AM missed that opportunity the day that we voted for this.
11:50:57AM I don't believe that.
11:50:58AM I don't believe that.
11:51:00AM I believe that the cameras are here, and I believe that a
11:51:03AM regulation -- the minute they go away, we should have a
11:51:06AM regulation should they come back.
11:51:08AM This is an opportunity to take advantage of drafting an
11:51:16AM ordinance, regulations for this purpose, because they are
11:51:22AM here.
11:51:24AM And as the mayor has said, if this quote is correct, he's
11:51:28AM decided and as I said, that this is what they're staying.
11:51:33AM And it is.
11:51:33AM And thank you Mr. Shelby for reading that, because you did
11:51:40AM read it to me this past weekend when I had a question and

11:51:46AM you read that exact, the charter and what our -- that's
11:51:51AM exactly what I said.
11:51:53AM We are legislative.
11:51:54AM We legislate.
11:51:56AM Let's legislate.
11:51:57AM And put together an ordinance working with your policies,
11:52:05AM working with Mr. Shelby said -- I'm sorry, Mr. Shimberg, and
11:52:11AM have -- and what Mr. Reddick said, to have Mr. Shelby work
11:52:16AM with, with Mr. Shimberg and make -- is that a motion that
11:52:21AM you made?
11:52:22AM Then I would second that motion.
11:52:24AM To bring that forth.
11:52:27AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
11:52:27AM I have not spoken.
11:52:29AM Maybe I shouldn't speak.
11:52:31AM But, let me say this.
11:52:35AM From what I took in for last few minutes of conversation was
11:52:39AM very well said by all.
11:52:41AM When this thing was passed back in March, whenever it was,
11:52:46AM in 2012, about the purchase of the cameras, and about the
11:52:49AM warranty and about the time it starts and when it doesn't
11:52:53AM start, you got to look at them both sides.
11:52:56AM I'm sure that the police department doesn't want to spend
11:52:59AM the warranty until they make sure that everything that's in
11:53:03AM place is working a hundred percent.

11:53:05AM On the other side of the issue, that company wants to start
11:53:07AM the warranty as soon as possible.
11:53:09AM To reduce its liability that it has by its contract.
11:53:13AM But I'm fairly well assured that this will be done within 30
11:53:17AM days, that the checkoff list will be made.
11:53:20AM [lost audio [.
11:53:54AM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Does the legislate have the right?
11:53:57AM The answer is yes.
11:53:58AM I said they're both right and they're both wrong.
11:54:00AM We can pass any ordinance we want.
11:54:02AM Any mayor doesn't have to enforce it.
11:54:04AM To some degree.
11:54:06AM Through public pressures, those mayors are forced to enforce
11:54:09AM the ordinance.
11:54:09AM We can pass laws that people don't want to enforce.
11:54:15AM And guess what happens?
11:54:17AM Those laws become unenforceable.
11:54:19AM When you pass laws to the general public that don't make
11:54:23AM sense, very few follow.
11:54:25AM When you pass laws for the general betterment of the public,
11:54:29AM most everyone follows.
11:54:31AM And there's where we're at today.
11:54:33AM When we look at these things and the time for this Council,
11:54:38AM and I agree with changing, writing a new ordinance,
11:54:41AM compromising some sort, on what these cameras should or

11:54:44AM should not do, and for instance, if these cameras are so
11:54:47AM sophisticated, I'm sure that they are, that only will
11:54:50AM project a car, not every car going down the street, but we
11:54:54AM only notice a car that opens a door and something is put out
11:54:58AM in this area or any part of the city, then only in that
11:55:03AM sense is the camera valuable to me.
11:55:05AM Not to the 20,000 cars that went by, but to that one car, or
11:55:10AM that one individual jumping a fence that seems suspicious,
11:55:15AM to some degree doing something that normally wouldn't
11:55:17AM happen.
11:55:17AM And if we can do that and work on an ordinance based on
11:55:23AM action, not the action of the general everyday life, but the
11:55:27AM action of the objective of something that's not in the
11:55:29AM normal way of life, then I think something can be worked
11:55:32AM out.
11:55:33AM However, let's say that it's not enforced and we pass an
11:55:37AM ordinance.
11:55:37AM Then at that time, when the budget comes due next year --
11:55:41AM and I'm not looking for -- you know, we have had a wonderful
11:55:44AM relationship, not only with this mayor, but with past mayors
11:55:47AM haven't and I'm looking for something of what they mentioned
11:55:50AM today in Ybor City.
11:55:51AM I'm looking for an olive tree that nobody can slip on
11:55:55AM because nothing falls down from.
11:55:56AM So therefore, the public is protected.

11:55:58AM That type of working agreement with administration, to work
11:56:02AM on these things, to make sure that we are noticed for a city
11:56:07AM of opportunity, for a city of cleanness, for city of low
11:56:12AM crime, for city of education.
11:56:14AM But also for a city that is not an eye in the sky.
11:56:19AM And these are the things that I think are troubling the
11:56:21AM members of this Council, along with the members of the
11:56:24AM community.
11:56:25AM I haven't meet with either one.
11:56:26AM I haven't met with ACLU and I did go see the cameras, but I
11:56:30AM never spoke to any administrative official, including the
11:56:33AM mayor down on these issues, because I wanted to have my own
11:56:36AM thoughts.
11:56:37AM I don't want thoughts coming to me from all sides.
11:56:39AM I have read the reports.
11:56:40AM That's why I do thing mainly, that's how I am.
11:56:44AM So, when I look around, there are things that you can do for
11:56:49AM in the future that this administration understands that they
11:56:53AM have one year from the date that that warranty is signed, to
11:56:58AM this time, to come with a plan to do things.
11:57:01AM However, we have a responsibility, together with our
11:57:05AM attorney and the city attorney, to work on an ordinance, to
11:57:08AM make sure that these things are in no way objectable to the
11:57:13AM general public.
11:57:13AM That they're -- we don't want to be known as drone city.

11:57:17AM I don't have a drone.
11:57:20AM You can buy a drone now for a couple two or three hundred
11:57:23AM dollars.
11:57:23AM That's how it is.
11:57:25AM And the society that I live in.
11:57:30AM Is it right or wrong?
11:57:31AM I really don't know.
11:57:32AM I just don't want to have drones over little league parks
11:57:35AM and make sure that a 12-year-old is not doing something --
11:57:38AM it's not the right thing to do.
11:57:41AM Government doesn't do parenting very well, and I'm going off
11:57:44AM the subject matter.
11:57:45AM But I want to make sure that the public is protected both
11:57:48AM ways.
11:57:49AM According to the civil rights and according to law
11:57:53AM enforcement, we come together and work something out.
11:57:56AM That's all I have to say.
11:57:58AM Thank you very much.
11:57:58AM I'm going to give one minute for wrapup, so I don't violate
11:58:02AM anybody's rules.
11:58:03AM Because the rule calls for two bites at the apple.
11:58:06AM And let me tell you what I've done.
11:58:06AM When I look at the clock, if it's 52, I start you off at 53.
11:58:09AM And when you pass the 58, I give you an additional 30
11:58:13AM seconds, so you've had really six and a half.

11:58:16AM And thank you very much for allowing me to do this.
11:58:18AM That's what you wanted, that's what you'll get.
11:58:21AM We'll go from left to right, wrap up.
11:58:24AM Ms. Montelione.
11:58:25AM >>LISA MONTELIONE: I've been asking for an ordinance since
11:58:27AM the day we approved the contract to buy these cameras.
11:58:30AM I've known from the beginning that Councilwoman Capin
11:58:37AM illustrated, that Martin Shelby illustrated, we are a
11:58:41AM legislative body.
11:58:42AM The only way we have control is through ordinances and
11:58:45AM resolutions.
11:58:46AM I've been asking for that from day one.
11:58:49AM This shouldn't be a surprise, and all of the questions that
11:58:52AM I asked during the meetings we have had, during the
11:58:56AM formation of the event zone ordinance could be used as a
11:59:01AM guide.
11:59:02AM All the questions that I've asked during the discussion of
11:59:04AM the cameras could be used as a guide.
11:59:06AM There's an ample opportunity to craft this ordinance from
11:59:11AM the day I've been asking for it, which is when we approved
11:59:15AM the cameras.
11:59:15AM So, again, we are asking for an ordinance.
11:59:22AM We understand that's the only way we can control what
11:59:25AM happens in the future.
11:59:26AM And as Chair Miranda has stated, we have had to this point a

11:59:31AM good relationship with the mayor.
11:59:32AM We're not criticizing, or at least I'm not criticizing his
11:59:36AM intentions or his integrity, or that of yours, Chief Castor,
11:59:41AM or yours, Mr. Shimberg.
11:59:42AM We're worried about the time period that these are going to
11:59:47AM be in place.
11:59:48AM So, yes -- I mean, we could call for a motion now.
11:59:53AM I've called for a motion three times at three separate
11:59:56AM Council meetings.
11:59:57AM And I, we still don't, still haven't gotten there.
12:00:01PM So it's not a new motion.
12:00:02PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Mulhern?
12:00:06PM >>MARY MULHERN: I'm just going to say that I'm not going to
12:00:08PM support a motion.
12:00:10PM It looks like there will be some kind of motion that will
12:00:13PM come back, and I will certainly help to protect whatever
12:00:17PM privacy I can salvage with having these cameras in place.
12:00:23PM But, the reality is, we do only have the power of the purse.
12:00:27PM We gave that up in March.
12:00:29PM I didn't.
12:00:30PM But everyone else did.
12:00:32PM So I want the public to know if an ordinance is crafted for
12:00:37PM this interim period, that we don't know the start date of,
12:00:42PM because the contract for maintenance hasn't even started
12:00:45PM yet.

12:00:45PM So who knows?
12:00:46PM Maybe it will be a year since the cameras are installed and
12:00:49PM we'll still be tweaking the contract.
12:00:51PM So if this Council votes to work on some kind of ordinance
12:00:55PM to, that will prevent abuse beyond the abuse that cameras
12:01:01PM are going to allow anyway, I'll participate and I'll help
12:01:04PM with that, but I'm not going to vote for that today because
12:01:07PM I don't believe we should have these cameras.
12:01:09PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you, Ms. Mulhern.
12:01:11PM Mr. Cohen?
12:01:13PM >>HARRY COHEN: Well, I said originally that I wasn't going
12:01:16PM to support an ordinance.
12:01:17PM But, Mr. Reddick crafted his motion very carefully.
12:01:22PM He just -- he just asked for our attorney to work with the
12:01:26PM city attorney.
12:01:27PM And that to me implies, implies that if, what we're doing
12:01:32PM stretches across what is permissible by the charter, that
12:01:37PM it's not going to come back to us anyway.
12:01:39PM So given that he crafted it the way he did, I will vote for
12:01:43PM it today.
12:01:44PM But I do fundamentally agree with Councilwoman Mulhern about
12:01:49PM the fact that ultimately, and Chair Miranda said it as well,
12:01:54PM ultimately this decision is going to be one that is going to
12:01:58PM be made when we make the decision on whether or not to
12:02:01PM reauthorize or authorize for the first time the maintenance

12:02:05PM and license agreements a year from now.
12:02:06PM But I'm willing to work with my colleagues to see where we
12:02:09PM can go, recognizing that our legislative power can overreach
12:02:15PM and, into the mayor and police chief's administrative and
12:02:19PM law enforcement responsibilities.
12:02:21PM I'm trusting that the attorneys will be very cognizant of
12:02:24PM that when they're working on the draft.
12:02:26PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you motorcycles Cohen.
12:02:27PM Mr. Reddick, I believe you have the mic.
12:02:30PM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12:02:31PM And I just want to reiterate my original motion, and that
12:02:34PM was to ask our attorney, Mr. Shelby, as well as city
12:02:40PM attorney, Mr. Shimberg to work together to draft an
12:02:43PM ordinance that will not undermine the chief's authority or
12:02:48PM the mayor in reference to what we want to regulate and the
12:02:52PM liability issues.
12:02:54PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you Mr. Cohen.
12:02:55PM Mr. Suarez?
12:02:57PM >>MIKE SUAREZ: I thought you were going to go down here.
12:03:00PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm just going through the original, that
12:03:02PM I had originally.
12:03:04PM >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.
12:03:05PM I agree with what my colleagues have said.
12:03:08PM I think Mr. Shelby by reading it out, he specifically, and
12:03:12PM we have to be cognizant of what he read.

12:03:14PM Which is we have no control over contracts once we have
12:03:16PM executed them.
12:03:17PM There are good reasons for that.
12:03:19PM Primarily so politics are not played whenever contracts are
12:03:21PM awarded, so that people cannot come back and then say I
12:03:24PM wanted my friend to have a contract versus someone else.
12:03:27PM That's part of the reason why there are state laws that
12:03:30PM control what we do with contracts.
12:03:32PM Secondly, he had mentioned about what the mayor's
12:03:37PM administrative duties are under the charter.
12:03:41PM My sense of this is not to go deeply into the administrative
12:03:44PM aspects of what the mayor or the chief of police can do
12:03:48PM concerning cameras themselves.
12:03:50PM But the use of cameras and specifically to what members of
12:03:55PM the police force are able to do, that is, I believe,
12:03:59PM something that we do have a right to look at.
12:04:02PM We do have a right to have a policy in place, determining on
12:04:06PM how our employees are using pieces of equipment that we
12:04:12PM provide to them.
12:04:13PM That is a basis of what my first argument was, and will be a
12:04:17PM basis of every argument that I use hereafter.
12:04:21PM It is not about trying to micromanage what crime is, what
12:04:25PM probable cause is.
12:04:26PM It is not to micromanage or try to make Jane Castor's job
12:04:29PM more difficult.

12:04:30PM But it is something that we have a right to do, and we do
12:04:34PM have an obligation to do under the charter.
12:04:37PM Thank you.
12:04:38PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, Mr. Suarez.
12:04:40PM Ms. Capin?
12:04:41PM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.
12:04:42PM I did second the motion and I did appreciate Mr. Shelby
12:04:49PM reading that again to me, or to us.
12:04:53PM And it was crafted very carefully.
12:05:00PM Any ordinance that we pass, it is signed by the mayor and
12:05:06PM then not enforced, what's legally is the -- is the -- do we,
12:05:20PM course do we have?
12:05:22PM If any.
12:05:24PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: There are, and I'd rather not delineate
12:05:27PM them now, but certainly there is legal recourse that you can
12:05:30PM take.
12:05:31PM There are writs, you could go into court.
12:05:35PM There are different ways of handling it.
12:05:37PM But obviously, you do raise a very interesting point, that I
12:05:40PM did want to bring to Council's attention.
12:05:43PM Also, obviously under your charter.
12:05:45PM Any ordinance you pass has to be signed and approved by the
12:05:50PM mayor, or vetoed by the mayor and this Council would then
12:05:54PM have to override the veto.
12:05:56PM So therefore, there is a checks and balances even with the

12:06:01PM enactment of an ordinance here.
12:06:03PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I'm going to need 15 minutes at most, I
12:06:05PM hope, to finish this meeting today.
12:06:06PM Had a motion by Ms. Montelione, second by Mr. Reddick.
12:06:09PM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
12:06:11PM Opposed nay.
12:06:13PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:06:14PM Finnish at 12:15 instead of 12.
12:06:16PM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.
12:06:17PM I'm going to wrap up very quickly here.
12:06:19PM Did I second the motion and Councilwoman Montelione was
12:06:22PM right, she did make the motion in regard to the ordinance
12:06:25PM and it has come up over and over again and it is our duty to
12:06:31PM be legislative.
12:06:32PM That's what we're trying to do it today.
12:06:34PM That's it for me.
12:06:35PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:06:35PM I have a motion on the floor that was originally made by
12:06:44PM sometime back, but today's Mr. Reddick, and second by
12:06:48PM Mrs. Capin.
12:06:48PM I'm not going to state it.
12:06:50PM Mr. Reddick stated it twice.
12:06:52PM It's in the record, clerk has recorded it.
12:06:55PM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
12:06:58PM Opposed nay.

12:06:59PM Motion passes 6-1.
12:07:00PM Okay.
12:07:03PM We're at the end, Ms. Capin.
12:07:07PM Any information you want to give this Council today on new
12:07:10PM business?
12:07:12PM >> We didn't put a date on that.
12:07:18PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me go back and make that, restate
12:07:20PM that motion.
12:07:21PM I'll be with you one second.
12:07:23PM Let me finish what I got to do here.
12:07:25PM Then your general public comments will be coming up.
12:07:29PM November what?
12:07:30PM >> 60 days.
12:07:31PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: 60 days would be December the, the first
12:07:35PM meeting in December.
12:07:37PM >> December 6th.
12:07:38PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: December 6th.
12:07:39PM Come up at 9:30.
12:07:43PM >> You wanted it for 9:30 time?
12:07:47PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It gets more discussion.
12:07:49PM Have that motion, Mr. Reddick made, second by Ms. Capin, for
12:07:55PM December the 6th at 9:30.
12:07:57PM All in favor, please indicate by saying aye.
12:08:00PM Opposed nay.
12:08:01PM The ayes have it unanimously.

12:08:01PM All right.
12:08:03PM Ms. Capin, any new business?
12:08:05PM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Yes.
12:08:06PM Thank you.
12:08:06PM I'd like to amend my motion of September the 20th, where, it
12:08:16PM pertains to the workshop for November 25th on the internet
12:08:22PM sweepstakes cafe.
12:08:24PM I along there, I'd like to remove alcohol from there because
12:08:28PM we do regulate alcohol very differently.
12:08:33PM And I don't know that that would be, that would pertain, so
12:08:38PM I don't mind discussing -- as a matter of fact, I will bring
12:08:41PM up a workshop on alcohol.
12:08:42PM But I'd like it to be all by itself.
12:08:45PM So I'd like to remove that from the list of items that I
12:08:49PM have on internet sweepstakes cafe.
12:08:53PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Ms. Capin, second by
12:08:55PM Mr. Reddick.
12:08:56PM In discussion, let me say this.
12:08:57PM In theory though, if you have an establishment now that has
12:09:01PM an alcohol zoning, and goes out the building, the land is
12:09:08PM still zoned alcohol.
12:09:09PM So then are we saying that you can't or can have internet --
12:09:14PM I don't know.
12:09:15PM That's what I'm saying.
12:09:16PM I want to discuss it before we do the -- I'd like it to

12:09:23PM discuss it before we do the internet cafes.
12:09:28PM >>YVONNE CAPIN: You'd like to discuss the alcohol part?
12:09:31PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yep.
12:09:32PM Because the building, we're not -- we're talking about the
12:09:34PM building is zoned, the land is zoned and then they vacate
12:09:38PM and they, follow the law and sell one drink a month or
12:09:43PM whatever it is, and you come in and say okay I'm going to
12:09:46PM open shop, internet cafe, what do we do then?
12:09:49PM I don't know.
12:09:50PM Why don't you turn it to legal.
12:09:53PM My advice is turn it to legal to come back with an opinion
12:09:55PM or whatever it is you want to achieve in that manner.
12:10:00PM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Well, I listed it for November 29th.
12:10:02PM I listed several items added to the Jacksonville ordinance
12:10:05PM to look at.
12:10:06PM And one of them was alcohol.
12:10:08PM And I feel that alcohol permitting is a whole issue unto it
12:10:16PM is and I will be asking for a workshop on that.
12:10:19PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I can, Council, you directed legal to do
12:10:21PM that, but I think what Chairman Miranda is requesting
12:10:25PM information on is very pertinent to come back at that time,
12:10:28PM which would be what would be the situation of having a, the
12:10:34PM relationship between whether to serve alcohol and have an
12:10:38PM internet cafe, especially relocating into a business that,
12:10:42PM or property that already has that capability.

12:10:45PM So that might be a question that they may have, able to have
12:10:49PM answered that may affect the discussion.
12:10:51PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's what I'm asking.
12:10:53PM >>YVONNE CAPIN: Well then I will not ask to remove it.
12:10:56PM I'll leave it and we'll discuss it.
12:10:58PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, Ms. Capin.
12:10:59PM All right, one more, Mr. Cohen.
12:11:02PM >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
12:11:03PM The Edmond Sheffield chapter of Colonial dames of the
12:11:08PM 17th century has been granted permission from the national
12:11:11PM park service to place the port Tampa city library on the
12:11:14PM national register of historic places.
12:11:16PM This award has taken two years of steady research, paperwork
12:11:20PM and lots of leg work to achieve.
12:11:22PM The award ceremony will take place at the port Tampa city
12:11:25PM library, 4902 west Commerce Street at 2:00 p.m. on Saturday,
12:11:30PM October 20th, 2012.
12:11:32PM Refreshments will be served.
12:11:34PM Following the ceremony, and a bronze plaque will be
12:11:37PM permanently placed inside the library on that date.
12:11:40PM This particular facility is really one of the jewels of this
12:11:45PM city.
12:11:45PM And I would like to make a motion that on that date, City
12:11:48PM Council present a commendation, both to the Edmond Sheffield
12:11:53PM Chapter of the Colonial Dames of the 17th Century, as well

12:11:55PM as to the Port Tampa City Civic Association on this very,
12:12:00PM very big honor.
12:12:01PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Cohen, second by
12:12:04PM Ms. Montelione.
12:12:05PM All in favor of the motion please indicate by saying aye.
12:12:07PM Opposed nay.
12:12:08PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:12:08PM I need a motion to receive and file.
12:12:10PM >> So moved.
12:12:11PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me make this motion, before I forget,
12:12:14PM motion by Mr. Cohen, all in favor of the motion please
12:12:17PM indicate by saying aye.
12:12:18PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:12:19PM Ms. Mulhern, and Ms. Montelione.
12:12:23PM >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.
12:12:23PM I just have one piece of new business.
12:12:25PM I'd like to ask Council to consider -- I'll pass out this
12:12:30PM draft ordinance.
12:12:32PM Back in June, June 28th we heard from Deborah Rubin with
12:12:37PM information, exhaustive research about smart meters starting
12:12:44PM to be installed by the utilities, the electric companies.
12:12:47PM I've worked with Mr. Shelby and Ms. Rubin to draft an
12:12:52PM ordinance that would basically say that individuals have the
12:12:56PM right to opt out if the electric company wants to put a
12:13:03PM smart meter on their house.

12:13:04PM So, I'm going to give, pass the ordinance out.
12:13:07PM I'd like Council, if this could come back as a draft
12:13:11PM ordinance and Council could consider it between now and
12:13:14PM October 18th.
12:13:16PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Shelby?
12:13:17PM >>MARY MULHERN: I'm just asking for the draft to come back.
12:13:20PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: If I may, Ms. Mulhern, I believe what
12:13:22PM you're referring to you're referring to a resolution.
12:13:24PM >>MARY MULHERN: Oh, a resolution, I'm sorry.
12:13:27PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: Which your ordinance, excuse me, which your
12:13:29PM office has prepared and which I've just reviewed as to form.
12:13:32PM But just for the sake of the other Councilmembers, I did not
12:13:37PM draft this.
12:13:38PM But it is a resolution.
12:13:41PM >>MARY MULHERN: You've reviewed.
12:13:42PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion by Ms. Mulhern, do you have a
12:13:44PM second?
12:13:44PM Second by Mr. Reddick.
12:13:45PM All in favor of the resolution, please indicate by saying
12:13:48PM aye.
12:13:48PM Opposed nay.
12:13:50PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:13:50PM Ms. Montelione?
12:13:52PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.
12:13:56PM May the clerk have a copy of it please?

12:13:58PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Montelione?
12:14:00PM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
12:14:00PM I think it needs to be just speak a moment on why I voted no
12:14:07PM on this ordinance, is because Ms. Mulhern, not that I don't
12:14:11PM agree with you on the necessity of having such a resolution
12:14:18PM in place, but I've stated before that I believe that any
12:14:22PM resolution or ordinance coming before this body be drafted
12:14:26PM by a member of our own attorney, our own City Council
12:14:30PM attorney or by the administration's legal staff.
12:14:33PM So any time that an ordinance or resolution is going to come
12:14:37PM from outside of this city, I'm inclined to vote no.
12:14:41PM So, that being said, my piece of new business is, well,
12:14:46PM actually two, and they're related.
12:14:48PM I would like to offer a commendation to Steven Michael
12:14:55PM Lyles.
12:14:55PM He achieved the rank of eagle scout and his eagle scout
12:15:01PM service project was consisted of, and not something we would
12:15:05PM all really want to do.
12:15:06PM Refurbishing the Cheetah habitat at Lowry Park Zoo.
12:15:09PM So I'm guessing the Cheetahs were not in the habitat when he
12:15:15PM was refurbishing it.
12:15:16PM But, and the date to offer that commendation, I would
12:15:20PM reserve for our next meeting because I believe he is away at
12:15:24PM college.
12:15:25PM So, we'll have to work that out and see if he wants to come

12:15:29PM here or we'll offer the commendation to the eagle scout.
12:15:33PM So I would like to make that motion.
12:15:35PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Ms. Montelione, second
12:15:37PM by Mr. Cohen.
12:15:38PM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
12:15:39PM Opposed nay.
12:15:41PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:15:43PM >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.
12:15:43PM The other is, I just recently this past week took a tour of
12:15:49PM Lowry Park Zoo, which is fantastic thing, if any of you have
12:15:52PM not been on the tour of Lowry Park Zoo, with Mr. Pugh, the
12:15:57PM CEO, please do so.
12:15:59PM Mr. Pugh is just tremendously enamored with his job.
12:16:04PM And really made me want to have his job because he seems to
12:16:07PM enjoy it so much.
12:16:08PM I would like Mr. Pugh to come here again at a date to be
12:16:13PM worked out with Mr. Pugh to inform us.
12:16:19PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Have a motion by Ms. Montelione to have
12:16:20PM Mr. Pugh come.
12:16:22PM The clerk will can ask that and put it on the calendar
12:16:25PM according to list calendar.
12:16:27PM Second by Mr. Cohen.
12:16:28PM All in favor please indicate by saying aye.
12:16:30PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:16:30PM Yes, sir.

12:16:31PM You have the floor now.
12:16:35PM I got more.
12:16:36PM This is the third time I have asked for commendation or
12:16:39PM comments from the Council.
12:16:40PM They all said no in the beginning.
12:16:41PM Mr. Reddick.
12:16:43PM >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12:16:44PM I just wanted to say that October is breast awareness month.
12:16:48PM And we got a big surprise here.
12:16:59PM >> This is for --
12:17:02PM >> Please don't go any further.
12:17:03PM [ Laughter ]
12:17:04PM >> This is worn over a white T-shirt and this is for
12:17:08PM October 20th, the walk for cure breast cancer.
12:17:13PM And I was invited by a breast cancer survivor to come to her
12:17:17PM office, who generously put these out.
12:17:20PM And we decorated them.
12:17:21PM And you wear them over your T-shirt and then they made some
12:17:24PM for men that they could wear over their T-shirts.
12:17:27PM But to be aware this is breast cancer awareness month and
12:17:30PM walk for the cure is October the 20th.
12:17:36PM >> Mayor foster in St. Petersburg about with one on.
12:17:41PM Somehow I don't see Mayor Buckhorn with one on.
12:17:44PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, sir?
12:17:46PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: Just for clarification, relative to

12:17:49PM Councilmember Mulhern's motion, I believe you distributed
12:17:51PM your resolution for the purposes of having it placed on the
12:17:54PM October 15th -- October 18th agenda.
12:17:58PM So the vote that took place was not a vote to approve the
12:18:01PM ordinance today, but just to place it on the future agenda.
12:18:04PM >>MARY MULHERN: I asked Council to read it and consider it.
12:18:09PM >>MARTIN SHELBY: Thank you.
12:18:10PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, sir.
12:18:10PM I'm sorry.
12:18:11PM I apologize.
12:18:12PM >> Andrew Curry, North Tampa.
12:18:14PM Thank you for all your comments and concerns on the cameras.
12:18:17PM I actually didn't believe you would be so concerned, but
12:18:20PM it's good to see local politics actually taking a stand on
12:18:24PM this.
12:18:28PM I've been traveling the past year going to major events all
12:18:31PM over the country.
12:18:32PM Mainly speaking out against the corruption that is
12:18:34PM infiltrated the top down from the federal government and
12:18:38PM I've been in New York city.
12:18:40PM That is a surveillance state.
12:18:41PM They have many cameras like the ones brought here for the
12:18:43PM RNC.
12:18:44PM They're artificial intelligence in those cameras is a bit
12:18:49PM scarier than the ones here.

12:18:50PM And I believe you might have been misled before you were to
12:18:54PM pass or vote on whatever it was to get these cameras because
12:18:59PM the software in these cameras suggests that it is not for
12:19:04PM big event tactics.
12:19:06PM It mainly suggests it is routine.
12:19:10PM The software goes on a 24 hour basis and everything that
12:19:13PM happens on a 24 hour basis is considered normal.
12:19:17PM And then a week later, someone's cleaning a wall but in that
12:19:22PM week no one has touched that wall, that camera may send up a
12:19:26PM flag and say someone may be vandalizing this wall.
12:19:29PM Personally I've been thrown up in New York City for cleaning
12:19:32PM a wall when, police squad cars pulled up threw me and my
12:19:38PM girlfriend against the wall.
12:19:39PM That's not what I want to see Tampa become.
12:19:42PM These cameras, street cameras in intersections that when the
12:19:48PM light is green, at night you can see the flash bulbs taking
12:19:52PM pictures of peoples license plate while the light is green.
12:19:55PM So I just wanted to put out there that you might have been
12:20:01PM misled in some of the cameras, this may not be your
12:20:04PM jurisdiction, but those cameras elsewhere, street cameras
12:20:06PM need to be looked at.
12:20:08PM But the Republican National Convention and the Democrat
12:20:13PM national convention were both used as training missions,
12:20:16PM federally funded to train local police officers around the
12:20:20PM nation on how to deal with this event and how to criminalize

12:20:26PM speaking out and it's -- I really believe that some of these
12:20:30PM other issues, you really need to think a little bit more.
12:20:33PM I really love what you had stated today.
12:20:35PM But some of the other issues that they run a little bit
12:20:39PM deeper than just these cameras in this town right here,
12:20:43PM because this was a federal, this was a federal budget in
12:20:47PM this city and this Charlotte.
12:20:48PM And I can say in both cities, there was an unnecessary
12:20:51PM amount of police officers for a small number of people who
12:20:55PM just wanted to voice their concerns with the way that our
12:20:58PM government's being run.
12:20:59PM So thank you.
12:21:00PM Have a blessed day.
12:21:01PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:21:01PM Anyone else in the audience care to address this Council at
12:21:04PM this time, please come forward.
12:21:05PM I need another ten minutes.
12:21:07PM Moved by Ms. Montelione, second by Mr. Cohen.
12:21:13PM All in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.
12:21:13PM Opposed, nay.
12:21:14PM The ayes have it unanimously.
12:21:14PM Yes?
12:21:16PM >> Brian Becker, resident of Tampa.
12:21:19PM I wasn't really planning on saying anything, but, because I
12:21:27PM don't have any really prepared remarks.

12:21:32PM As stated before, my opposition to surveillance cameras and
12:21:38PM listening to all the discussion today, I do think it's
12:21:41PM necessary to point out that some of the statements that I
12:21:48PM heard on the part of the police, I believe to be rather
12:21:52PM disingenuous in so far that I have been part of meeting in
12:22:00PM the past where City of Tampa attorney pointed out that the
12:22:07PM surveillance cameras that are up in Ybor City, that have
12:22:12PM been there since '97 or so, that those cameras are actually
12:22:18PM being monitored not by the Tampa police, but by the staff of
12:22:24PM Centro Ybor.
12:22:24PM And that goes directly to what we are talking about today,
12:22:28PM who is really having oversight of the cameras.
12:22:31PM So you have got public streets, tax funded surveillance
12:22:40PM cameras and you've got private entity watching them with no
12:22:45PM oversight.
12:22:48PM So, just want to reiterate my opposition and that's one more
12:22:52PM aspect to what we have been discussing.
12:22:55PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.
12:22:55PM Next please?
12:22:58PM >> Good morning.
12:22:58PM My name is Benny small.
12:23:00PM I'm in the new president of the African-American West Tampa
12:23:05PM civic association.
12:23:06PM My basic goals there are to increase the quality of life for
12:23:09PM the residents, for the businesses, to for the merchants and

12:23:13PM small contracting in the West Tampa area.
12:23:14PM In a couple weeks a month, we will be speaking with various
12:23:22PM department heads that will be addressing various issues how
12:23:24PM we can increase the quality of life for those individuals in
12:23:26PM that area.
12:23:27PM We're not here to harass or to intimidate anyone, but
12:23:32PM basically to try to get information and see how the
12:23:34PM residents of West Tampa and the city can work together to
12:23:37PM try to defuse some of the confusion and misinformation that
12:23:41PM has been out there.
12:23:43PM What I'm asking is for your support and I'm surely I will be
12:23:46PM talking with some of the other Councilmembers in the
12:23:49PM upcoming months, to try to make sure that this is a smooth
12:23:52PM transaction and to make sure that everybody can have a good
12:23:58PM quality of life within West Tampa area.
12:24:00PM On that note, I'd just like to thank you for letting me have
12:24:03PM the opportunity to be here.
12:24:05PM >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.
12:24:05PM Anyone else who has not spoken that cares to speak?
12:24:09PM Don't see no one.
12:24:10PM Stand adjourned.
12:24:11PM [ 12:25 p.m. ]




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