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Thursday, November 29, 2012

9:00 a.m. session


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08:58:37 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: City Council is called to order.

09:04:42 The chair yields to Mary Mulhern.

09:04:45 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

09:04:46 It's my honor to introduce Shirley Foxx-Knowles, our city

09:04:52 clerk, to give our invocation today.

09:04:53 >>SHIRLEY FOXX-KNOWLES: Good morning, council.

09:05:02 Good morning, everyone.

09:05:03 Let us pray.

09:05:04 Father, we thank you for this place and time and for all

09:05:08 those assembled here for today's workshop meeting.

09:05:12 We thank you also for the police officer being recognized

09:05:15 this morning.

09:05:17 We celebrate the officer and all the others that have been

09:05:21 commended for their extraordinary service to our community.

09:05:24 May they continue to persevere in their future service to

09:05:29 our city and continue to be wonderful examples of

09:05:32 outstanding Tampa citizens.

09:05:36 Thank you for your grace and your mercy and for our many

09:05:40 blessings.

09:05:41 Bless our council and continue to guide them in all of their

09:05:45 decision making.

09:05:47 Make them instruments of your will.

09:05:50 Continue to bless our mayor, our administration, and our

09:05:55 great staff.

09:05:56 We are also grateful for the opportunity to provide the best

09:06:00 possible service to all our citizens.

09:06:03 And now as we go about the worldly matters of this city,

09:06:08 keep us in your care and make us shining examples of your

09:06:11 love.

09:06:12 These things we ask and thanks we give with humble hearts.

09:06:15 Let us all say -- amen.

09:06:19 [ Pledge of Allegiance ]

09:06:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Roll call.

09:06:41 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Here.

09:06:44 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Present.

09:06:45 >>FRANK REDDICK: Here.

09:06:46 >>MARY MULHERN: Here.

09:06:48 >>HARRY COHEN: Here.

09:06:50 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Here.

09:06:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We go to the ceremonial first, Mr. Frank

09:06:56 Reddick, presentation, commendation to the police Officer of

09:06:59 the Month.

09:07:00 And right after that we are going to have Mr. Shimberg and

09:07:05 Mr. Territo both bring up certain items for the council.

09:07:08 Yes, sir.

09:07:08 >>FRANK REDDICK: Good morning, council.

09:07:11 Before I present this commendation, let me give praise to

09:07:17 our police force for making a quick arrest on the person who

09:07:23 shot the security officer at the apartment complex.

09:07:28 I think the residents of that complex feel at ease this

09:07:32 morning knowing that you made a quick arrest.

09:07:35 I want to praise you for doing it and doing it in a timely

09:07:39 manner.

09:07:40 It's a pleasure to present this commendation to Officer of

09:07:42 the Month for November 2012, and it's officer Jason

09:07:47 Linderman.

09:07:54 CHIEF JANE CASTOR: Thank you, council.

09:07:57 It's not coincidental but the officer that we are

09:07:59 recognizing today is basically the definition of a community

09:08:05 police officer, and that is one of the elements, probably

09:08:09 one of the larger elements that allowed us to solve that

09:08:13 homicide and make an arrest in such a quick fashion with

09:08:17 developing those relationships with the community and having

09:08:22 him come forward with information that allowed us to put

09:08:25 that individual into custody very, very quickly so he

09:08:27 couldn't harm any more of our citizens.

09:08:29 Today it's my honor to bring to you officer Jason Linderman.

09:08:33 He has been a part of the Sulphur Springs community for as

09:08:37 long as I can remember, and just to show the impact that he

09:08:40 has had in that area, we have both of our assistant chiefs

09:08:45 here this morning, John Bennett and John Newman in

09:08:48 recognition of Jason Linderman, because he works with both

09:08:52 of them in the Sulphur Springs area.

09:08:54 Not only is he an amazing crime fighter, he understands that

09:08:59 you have to provide a positive image for the children in the

09:09:03 Sulphur Springs area and mentor them so that they have

09:09:08 choices and don't turn to a life of crime.

09:09:11 As I said, he is the definition of that.

09:09:13 If we could get the kids out of school in Sulphur Springs

09:09:19 the chambers would probably be full of children that he has

09:09:22 positively impacted and it's not a one-man effort.

09:09:25 I call him Jason squared.

09:09:27 Jason Ricardo was his partner for a long time until a

09:09:36 promotion.

09:09:37 And then I know Jason's wife is actively involved in the

09:09:40 Sulphur Springs area.

09:09:41 They are active in the school there in Sulphur Springs, and

09:09:44 also in the Rich house which is a safe haven for children in

09:09:49 Sulphur Springs, again providing that positive role model.

09:09:52 He mentors during the summer camp that they have in Sulphur

09:09:55 Springs and does anything and anything that he can to make

09:10:00 that a better community, not only safer but also a place

09:10:04 that kids can see for the future.

09:10:10 Just to keep it brief I'll give you just one example of his

09:10:14 crime fighting and community policing efforts.

09:10:18 He found out about a robbery that had occurred in the

09:10:21 Sulphur Springs area, and was limited to riding his bicycle

09:10:26 along north Brooks street when he was approached by three

09:10:30 teenagers and they pulled him into a parking lot and beat

09:10:33 him and stole his bicycle.

09:10:35 So the young man had to go to the hospital and got 32

09:10:38 stitches, I believe, 32 stitches over his right eye.

09:10:42 And Jason heard about this, started investigating

09:10:45 immediately, spoke with the victim, and found that the

09:10:49 victim was mentally challenged.

09:10:50 The victim knew two of the suspects' nicknames but that was

09:10:54 it.

09:10:54 So Jason was on the case.

09:10:56 He continued to follow up with the victim.

09:10:57 The victim remembered a few more of the details.

09:11:00 Jason was able, with a little bit of information that he had

09:11:04 and assistance from the community, to come up with two

09:11:06 suspects who were actually brothers that lived in the area.

09:11:12 He confronted the individuals, identified the third suspect,

09:11:16 and then built a relationship or rapport with one of the

09:11:19 brothers, and was able to get the young man's bicycle back.

09:11:23 It wasn't just a bicycle.

09:11:25 This was the only possession that this young man had, and it

09:11:28 was his only way to get to school and to get to work.

09:11:31 So for Jason to be able to get that back and give that back

09:11:35 to the victim, and then take these three individuals off the

09:11:39 streets, so Sulphur Springs again is just indicative of what

09:11:43 he does every single day out there for the community.

09:11:47 It's certainly my honor to recognize him as Officer of the

09:11:49 Month, and he can pretty much be officer of the century in

09:11:54 my mind.

09:11:56 Jason.

09:11:57 [ Applause ]

09:12:03 >>FRANK REDDICK: Jason, I just want to say Councilman Cohen

09:12:06 and I, we feel good that we can stand next to you and feel

09:12:11 tall.

09:12:12 [ Laughter ]

09:12:13 >> Thanks a lot.

09:12:15 [ Laughter ]

09:12:15 >>FRANK REDDICK: On behalf of Tampa City Council we would

09:12:20 like to present this commendation to you, being chosen as

09:12:23 Officer of the Month of November 2012.

09:12:26 Congratulations.

09:12:27 >> Chip Deblock of the PBA.

09:12:41 We would like to give you this $100 gift card.

09:12:44 >> Straz Center for the Performing Arts.

09:12:52 We have a couple of tickets for you to come see the

09:12:54 nutcracker.

09:12:58 Thank you.

09:12:58 >> Jan Latecki from the Tampa Theatre.

09:13:07 We want to present to you and your wife free tickets.

09:13:17 >> Steve Stickley representing Stepp's towing.

09:13:22 On behalf of Jim, Judy and Todd Stepp, we would like to give

09:13:26 you this token of our appreciation for a job well done.

09:13:28 We really appreciate what you do out there.

09:13:30 And we also have a gift certificate.

09:13:34 Thank you very much.

09:13:34 >> Frank DeSoto with Bill Currie Ford on behalf of the

09:13:46 entire Bill Currie family we would like to present you with

09:13:49 this watch and thank you for a job well done.

09:13:51 >> Joe Durkin, BrightHouse Network.

09:14:01 Thank you for the job you are doing and would like to

09:14:05 present you with one month of complementary services of all

09:14:08 Bright House services.

09:14:10 >>STEVE MICHELINI: Need a bag?

09:14:23 That little exercise program is going to cause to you gain

09:14:27 some weight maybe.

09:14:28 How about Bern's?

09:14:30 Will that be all right?

09:14:32 We would like to present with you a $100 gift certificate

09:14:35 four and your family to go enjoy dinner there.

09:14:39 On behalf of prestige photography, we are going to provide

09:14:42 you with a gift certificate for you and your family to have

09:14:44 your portraits taken.

09:14:45 Enjoy yourself.

09:14:47 Have the portraits done before you go to Bern's.

09:14:50 Congratulations.

09:14:51 >> Thank you, City Council.

09:14:56 Thank you, chief.

09:14:58 I would like to thank my family today.

09:14:59 I have my in-laws here today.

09:15:02 My wife is here, Kara, she's very supportive, she is my

09:15:07 rock.

09:15:08 My two daughters, Lila can't be here, she's ten months old,

09:15:13 so we had to keep her in daycare for everybody.

09:15:18 This means a lot to me because my daughter Hanna, she got an

09:15:29 ward this month for caring.

09:15:30 And I want to thank Ricardo, he helped me a lot.

09:15:37 So I appreciate all the help.

09:15:39 And an officer that helps me out on the street, and of

09:15:43 course my squad that didn't show up.

09:15:46 [ Laughter ]

09:15:46 But they are out there right now working taking care of

09:15:47 crime.

09:15:49 So thank you very much.

09:15:52 [ Applause ]

09:15:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.

09:16:00 And I am going to volunteer the council members in case you

09:16:03 need any speakers at your school, they are available.

09:16:07 Thank you, chief.

09:16:07 And thank you.

09:16:11 Keep warming up.

09:16:13 He knows what I mean.

09:16:17 All right.

09:16:18 Mr. Shimberg, I know that you have some urgent matters to

09:16:21 bring to our attention.

09:16:22 And I asked him to come here this morning, something that

09:16:29 had to do with the last amendment, I believe.

09:16:33 >>JIM SHIMBERG: City attorney.

09:16:35 Based on the Constitutional amendment number 11 by the

09:16:39 voters earlier this month, there's some issues that we

09:16:42 needed to consider involving special homestead exemption for

09:16:46 seniors.

09:16:46 And we have will Shepherd, the general counsel for the

09:16:49 property appraiser's office to make a short presentation and

09:16:52 then we can answer any questions.

09:16:56 We need to take some action.

09:16:59 Thank you for being here.

09:17:00 >>> Will Shepherd, general counsel for the Hillsborough

09:17:04 County property appraiser's office.

09:17:08 The issue here is as a result of the passage of amendment

09:17:12 11, but more specifically as a result of the enabling

09:17:17 statute that the legislature passed, let me give you a

09:17:20 little background here.

09:17:22 Florida statute 196.075 allows any taxing district to grant

09:17:30 a special homestead exemption, an additional homestead

09:17:33 exemption to senior citizens on a limited income.

09:17:37 The way that statute works is, or previously worked, was

09:17:42 that a taxing district could exempt up to $50,000 of value

09:17:47 for homes of senior citizens, that is senior citizens that

09:17:53 attained the age of 56 or older, and limited income.

09:17:56 That is adjusted every year but for 2012, the income is $Z

09:18:01 27000.

09:18:02 So if you are a senior over 65, household income no more

09:18:07 than $27,000, you can apply for the exemption.

09:18:12 The City of Tampa granted a $25,000 exemption to those folks

09:18:18 under the statute by ordinance.

09:18:20 The city of Temple Terrace granted a $25,000 exemption

09:18:23 applied to their millage rate under the ordinance.

09:18:25 And Hillsborough County granted a $40,000 exemption

09:18:29 understood that ordinance.

09:18:32 Here is what happened, and here is why you are in the

09:18:35 situation along with the city of Temple Terrace and the

09:18:38 county right now.

09:18:42 When amendment 11 passed, there was an additional what I'll

09:18:47 call a super seniors exemption.

09:18:49 I am going to explain that in a minute.

09:18:51 When they passed this bill, allowing for the super seniors

09:18:56 exemption, in addition to the regular senior homestead

09:19:01 exemption, they struck a couple words.

09:19:04 And the words they struck were the words that said that the

09:19:07 ordinance could be up to $50,000.

09:19:12 The simple loss of those words "up to $50,000" the rewrite

09:19:18 of the statute now says it's a $50,000 exemption.

09:19:22 We got word about two weeks ago from the Department of

09:19:24 Revenue that their opinion was that if there was an

09:19:29 ordinance on the books for less than 50,000, that ordinance

09:19:32 would be invalid for the 2013 tax year.

09:19:38 Meaning that the $25,000 exemption that the city has granted

09:19:42 understood their ordinance would no longer be valid in 2013.

09:19:46 To compound matters, the statute also says that if an

09:19:52 ordinance is going to be passed, it must be passed and in

09:19:55 the hands of the property appraiser by December 1st of

09:19:58 the prior year.

09:20:00 I think that is tomorrow, Saturday?

09:20:06 So that is the dilemma that is facing the city, the city of

09:20:10 Temple Terrace and the county.

09:20:12 I spoke with your attorney.

09:20:15 I'm working with the attorneys at the county as well.

09:20:20 Let me show you a little, within the last two weeks, but the

09:20:25 Department of Revenue has sent out a memo saying that they

09:20:28 are working with members of the legislature.

09:20:30 They realize that this was probably unintended and are

09:20:35 working on a Gingrich bill, or discussing a glitch bill to

09:20:38 fix that.

09:20:39 I can't tell you whether that's going to happen.

09:20:41 I can't tell you when that's going to happen.

09:20:44 So that's one of your options to consider, I suppose, is sit

09:20:49 and wait to see whether the legislature is going to amend

09:20:52 that and resolve that.

09:20:54 The second question is, if the property appraiser's office

09:21:00 simply continues to carry forth those exemptions as they

09:21:04 exist on the tax roll, is the Department of Revenue really

09:21:09 going to do anything about it?

09:21:10 Once again I can't really predict that, whether they are

09:21:12 willing to be the bad guys here, or whether they are just

09:21:15 going to leave it be.

09:21:17 The third alternative would be, of course, for the City

09:21:19 Council to consider increasing that to $50,000.

09:21:25 And I have some figures here to give you an idea what the

09:21:27 impact of that would be.

09:21:30 I will say this delicately.

09:21:34 There is no particular reason that the property appraise

09:21:37 office can figure out that we need to have it in our hands

09:21:40 by December 1st.

09:21:42 And we would be willing to work with any of the taxing

09:21:47 districts if that came to our office subsequent to that.

09:21:51 So from our standpoint, we are not going to be a roadblock

09:21:55 there.

09:21:56 Just to give you an idea of what the numbers are, this is

09:22:02 based on 2012 tax data.

09:22:04 I will tell you the tax rolls change it and it's based on

09:22:07 millage rates and applications so I can't exactly say what

09:22:10 they are for 2013.

09:22:11 They will be different but probably not that far off.

09:22:13 Currently, the City of Tampa has 561 parcels that appreciate

09:22:21 the seniors exemption.

09:22:23 However, of those, only about half receive the full $25,000

09:22:27 exemption because of the value of the homes and any

09:22:32 additional exemptions they might have.

09:22:34 So the ordinance from the city is full 25,000, because of

09:22:39 the value of those homes, because of some other exemptions,

09:22:42 half of them are not appreciating the full 25,000, okay.

09:22:48 So half of them receive the full 25.

09:22:50 The other half receive some lesser portion.

09:22:54 The taxes exempted currently as a result of that ordinance

09:22:58 are about $56,000.

09:23:02 By increasing the exemption to $50,000, that would not

09:23:05 double that $56,000 amount, because, as I said, some of

09:23:10 those homes don't have a value, that they appreciate the

09:23:14 full 50,000.

09:23:15 Okay.

09:23:16 So right now you are at about 56,000 by increasing it to 50,

09:23:20 my suspicion is you are not going to double that number.

09:23:25 The although I can't say that for sure.

09:23:28 The tax roll is changing. So that's the consideration.

09:23:30 Let me also explain what I'm calling the super seniors

09:23:33 exemption is.

09:23:35 The statute was amended and passed by the voters to -- in

09:23:41 addition to, or either-or, you can have both exemptions or

09:23:46 one or the other, but the second exemption is a different

09:23:48 seniors exemption.

09:23:49 This would exempt for homestead properties the entire value

09:23:55 of the home for seniors, assuming that the home value is not

09:24:01 more than $250,000.

09:24:02 It has to be less than $250.

09:24:05 Also, they have to have had a homestead exemption for 25

09:24:09 years.

09:24:09 So these are folks who have been in the same home for 25

09:24:12 years with a homestead exemption where the value has not

09:24:15 reached more than $250,000.

09:24:17 Once again the household income is limited to no more than

09:24:23 $27,000.

09:24:24 I don't have the numbers as to what the impact is.

09:24:26 I can probably estimate that.

09:24:30 Probably early next week I can run some numbers, give you a

09:24:34 ballpark as to what that is.

09:24:36 That's the situation as it exists.

09:24:38 I have not heard anything further from the Department of

09:24:40 Revenue as to where they are with the legislature.

09:24:43 But we thought it was important to apprise you of this

09:24:46 because of the potential that, this may go away for that

09:24:51 segment.

09:24:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Shimberg?

09:24:57 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I think at this point if council has

09:24:59 questions, we really need to get some direction from

09:25:02 council.

09:25:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have Mr. Suarez and Ms. Mulhern to

09:25:08 start with, and Mr. Cohen.

09:25:09 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Our choices are to change it now and wait

09:25:17 for the legislature to fix the glitch or wait for them to

09:25:20 fix the glitch and then craft an ordinance to fit with state

09:25:23 law?

09:25:30 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Well, let's not talk about the super senior,

09:25:32 but if council wants to take advantage of the 50,000 and the

09:25:35 other ordinance passed in 2001 giving up to 21,000, so if

09:25:40 you decide you want to, instead of giving them that, giving

09:25:43 them the 50,000, the safest thing to do would be for us to

09:25:47 process an ordinance change, we can do that in the first two

09:25:50 meetings and try to make it effective as of December

09:25:54 1st.

09:25:56 But that would be probably the safest thing to do.

09:25:58 >> And then that way figure out the numbers of what it's

09:26:06 going to affect in terms of budgetary money?

09:26:14 >> Decide somewhere between 50 and $100,000.

09:26:17 >> And that will be because of the change in the statute.

09:26:22 Again, they correct it, and they say -- they may change it

09:26:25 but the legislature doesn't go back into session as far as I

09:26:28 know until March, right?

09:26:31 Unless they have a special session which I haven't heard.

09:26:33 >> Committee week is this coming week or whatever.

09:26:36 I understand that.

09:26:37 I just want to know.

09:26:38 So our direction is either going to -- let's go ahead and

09:26:41 change it now or wait for the legislature.

09:26:43 >> That's the two options.

09:26:47 >>JIM SHIMBERG: And as Mr. Shepherd said, if we do

09:26:50 nothing --

09:26:55 >> Will Shepherd: Yes, I spoke to Bob Enriquez about this,

09:27:01 the incoming property appraiser, if you leave it alone we

09:27:04 are going to put it on the tax roll, put it through and wait

09:27:06 to see what the Department of Revenue does.

09:27:08 I can't speak for the Department of Revenue.

09:27:10 My guess is that they might not have the Gump shown to say

09:27:17 no.

09:27:17 >>MIKE SUAREZ: We are not going to be caught because of a

09:27:24 Constitutional amendment because the enabling legislation

09:27:26 hasn't been put in place when in fact, you know, the dates

09:27:31 of the Constitutional amendment kind of trap us in that.

09:27:35 >>JIM SHIMBERG: They changed the statute, and this is the

09:27:38 new language.

09:27:40 They didn't change that December 1st date, though.

09:27:43 And they also took out the "up to 50,000" and just left it

09:27:48 "50,000."

09:27:49 In the past we have been up to 50,000 for some time and the

09:27:52 City of Tampa has not chosen to change what we currently

09:27:55 have on the books which is 25.

09:27:56 >> And I think we would propose and recommend that we

09:28:01 propose you come up with an ordinance to give the full 50,

09:28:05 and then work from there so that the legislature can then

09:28:10 work backwards to us.

09:28:11 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

09:28:17 I might need will for this because I'm a little confused and

09:28:21 I appreciate you coming and explaining this to us.

09:28:24 So the statute and the referendum that we passed, was the

09:28:30 referendum just based on the statute, that's how it

09:28:33 happened?

09:28:36 >> That's correct.

09:28:36 Based on the existing statute, the "up to $50,000" has been

09:28:40 on the books for a long period of time now.

09:28:42 And so the city passed their ordinance, their referendum

09:28:47 based on that statute as it existed.

09:28:50 I really question whether the legislature intended -- when

09:28:55 you look at the read of the statute, they were trying to add

09:28:57 this additional seniors and had to put an "or" in there and

09:29:03 took out the "up to."

09:29:05 I think it was an oversight.

09:29:07 And the department didn't say this is what it is now and

09:29:11 this is our interpretation and we sort of panicked.

09:29:13 And we said, wait a minute, there's some language in the

09:29:17 statute that conflicts, which suggests that the Department

09:29:21 of Revenue's interpretation is not right, but the Department

09:29:24 of Revenue is the one who approves our tax roll, and they

09:29:28 have the ability to say, well, that's not how we read it, so

09:29:32 no doubt.

09:29:32 >>MARY MULHERN: Then my other question, I was trying to

09:29:39 understand it, you also said is it new and is it part of

09:29:45 what the voters voted on that the part about the up to

09:29:51 $250,000 value, was that part of --

09:29:55 >> That was amendment 11.

09:29:57 Now that is an option.

09:29:58 It's not mandatory.

09:30:00 It is once again an option.

09:30:01 And you can offer both, or one or the other.

09:30:05 The way the statute is written now you can have both the

09:30:11 50,000 or however they interpret that and the 250.

09:30:14 Then folks who have been in their house for 25 years or more

09:30:17 could elect the larger amount.

09:30:22 >> So that's what the voters said, approved that, if you

09:30:27 have been in your home, a senior, qualifying senior up to 25

09:30:30 years, then you can deduct the entire up to 250?

09:30:36 >> At the option of the taxing district.

09:30:38 >> It's up to the City Council.

09:30:39 >> We have to decide about that.

09:30:42 >> You have to decide about that.

09:30:43 That would only apply to your millage rate and it's purely

09:30:46 optional.

09:30:47 >>MARY MULHERN: And that's what the entire referendum was

09:30:50 about?

09:30:50 >> The referendum was about the superseded exemption.

09:30:53 It was the enabling statute in trying to put that in, that

09:30:56 they struck that "up to" that creates the problem with the

09:30:59 existing seniors.

09:31:01 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

09:31:03 Okay.

09:31:03 >>HARRY COHEN: It sounds like even if we rush, we cannot

09:31:11 make the deadline.

09:31:14 The best we could do to make it retroactively effective on

09:31:17 the first of December?

09:31:21 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Right.

09:31:21 There's a provision in the statute that says you cannot do

09:31:23 this by emergency ordinance so we could not do anything

09:31:26 today.

09:31:28 There are some places where you can do emergency ordinance.

09:31:31 >>HARRY COHEN: That's specifically prohibited.

09:31:33 So the best case scenario would be to bring something back

09:31:36 on the 6th, a week from now.

09:31:37 >> Correct.

09:31:38 >>HARRY COHEN: So we would have an opportunity in that

09:31:40 interim period of time to actually have a look at some of

09:31:42 the language in the statute to sit down with you and do

09:31:46 that?

09:31:48 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Sure.

09:31:49 >>HARRY COHEN: Because my thought is if we go forward with

09:31:52 drafting something, you know, I would like to see us maybe

09:31:57 put into the language something that anticipates a

09:32:02 legislative correction and automatically reverts back,

09:32:05 number one.

09:32:08 And number two, I think we do need to know what the

09:32:11 budgetary impact is going to be to the city's revenue in the

09:32:16 year that we are already in, and that we have already

09:32:19 budgeted for, when we make this decision.

09:32:23 I mean, cot turn out to be a de minimis amount.

09:32:27 Cot out to be a larger amount than we think.

09:32:36 >>JIM SHIMBERG: I hear what you are saying.

09:32:37 Again you have an existing ordinance on the books which we

09:32:42 would look at making the changes to.

09:32:44 And Mr. Territo is concerned that it's hard to undo what we

09:32:51 have already done.

09:32:52 So we have to look at that carefully the first year.

09:32:54 >> In other words, if we are going to revert back it would

09:32:58 have to revert back in the next year, not the current year.

09:33:02 >>JIM SHIMBERG: And as Mr. Shepherd said, the value is set

09:33:07 at the first of the year and the hope for everybody is that

09:33:10 values are going up a little bit so next year is going to be

09:33:13 a little higher.

09:33:13 >>HARRY COHEN: Certainly we need the nominate to look at

09:33:20 it.

09:33:22 Thank you.

09:33:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Any other council members?

09:33:25 All right.

09:33:25 I believe we need direction, but I think that with maybe two

09:33:32 different ordinances from which Mr. Suarez stated earlier,

09:33:35 which Mr. Weatherford explained about the 25,000 difference.

09:33:42 There's some cities that didn't give any.

09:33:44 You talk about 40,000 and 25,000, there's some, and this

09:33:47 county didn't give any.

09:33:49 I want that understood even though we weren't at the 40 or

09:33:52 50 we were certainly halfway if at all.

09:33:56 So I'm not here to talk about them.

09:34:01 >>JIM SHIMBERG: We need direction as to what you would like

09:34:03 us to do with respect to -- you want to consider the --

09:34:12 >>HARRY COHEN: Just one other question.

09:34:14 What other cities do it?

09:34:16 I mean, everybody is having the same problem, right?

09:34:18 >> Well, I have had a couple meetings already with the

09:34:26 Hillsborough County attorneys and their budgetary folks.

09:34:31 I have another meeting with them at 4:00 this afternoon.

09:34:34 I sort of thinking that -- think that -- I don't know if

09:34:38 they are going to know more at 4:00 this afternoon.

09:34:40 My suspicion is there may be an ordinance coming there that

09:34:44 once again wouldn't meet December 1, but we aren't going to

09:34:47 hold anybody's feet to the fire there.

09:34:48 I'm not sure.

09:34:49 I think at 4:00 I will know more.

09:34:52 So by early next week I can tell you more on what they are

09:34:55 planning on doing and I can also run numbers on the super

09:34:58 seniors and give you a ballpark there.

09:35:00 Because it's 25 years, there's not many there.

09:35:04 And not many of them would qualify.

09:35:07 And Temple Terrace, I think, I haven't heard much from them.

09:35:10 I think they are waiting to see what everyone else is going

09:35:13 to do. I'm not really sure.

09:35:15 But around the state there's obviously been a lot of

09:35:17 discussion with property appraisers, and the basic idea is

09:35:20 we all let our taxing districts know, anybody who is in that

09:35:24 situation, and then just say, here are your options, and

09:35:27 then that's up to you.

09:35:28 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I move the city attorney come back with an

09:35:35 ordinance fitting in with what the Constitutional amendment

09:35:40 says in terms of our ability to grant this exemption.

09:35:45 >>JIM SHIMBERG: Both or just the --

09:35:48 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Both, and come back with a budgetary impact

09:35:51 concerning that.

09:35:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: So all the numbers, how many households,

09:35:55 what do the numbers reflect on those things.

09:35:58 I have a motion by Mr. Suarez.

09:35:59 I have a second by Mr. Cohen.

09:36:03 All in favor of that motion, please indicate by saying aye.

09:36:06 Opposed nay.

09:36:08 Does anyone in the audience care to speak on this matter?

09:36:10 Come forward.

09:36:11 >>> I have something to discuss about the building.

09:36:19 I was downtown and I went inside the building, and they have

09:36:28 five in the rear and I thought they had sharp pieces, and

09:36:40 because the sharp pieces, and they had five things where

09:36:48 they took this image and put it on there, and then like when

09:36:56 they go and went down there and made -- you had to put --

09:37:10 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Let me stop here and, sir, my apologies

09:37:13 but what I meant to say on what the attorney and the council

09:37:16 were just discussing on that subject matter.

09:37:19 That's what this is on.

09:37:21 Let me hold you for one minute.

09:37:23 If you are not speaking on this subject matter that I have

09:37:26 on the exemptions -- pardon me?

09:37:30 >> That $30 million I was supposed to get.

09:37:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't know nothing about no $30

09:37:39 million.

09:37:39 I'm talking about this item that was brought up between the

09:37:41 property appraiser's office and the city attorney.

09:37:46 Let me hold you for a minute here.

09:37:47 Anyone else in the audience care oh to come up to speak on

09:37:50 this item that was brought up here to discuss this morning

09:37:54 regarding the exemption for seniors under amendment 11 that

09:37:57 was passed in this recent election?

09:37:59 Please come forward.

09:38:00 I see no one.

09:38:01 I have that motion made.

09:38:02 I think it's already been passed by Mr. Suarez, second by

09:38:05 Mr. Cohen.

09:38:06 All in favor of that motion.

09:38:12 It was passed and it will be December 6th for what time,

09:38:16 Mr. Suarez?

09:38:21 10:00 under staff reports.

09:38:23 And I think that was omitted from the motion so I'll take

09:38:26 that roll call vote again.

09:38:28 All in favor of that motion at 10:00 please signify by

09:38:31 saying aye.

09:38:32 Opposed nay.

09:38:33 The ayes have it unanimously.

09:38:34 Anyone care to speak on any item that's not on the agenda?

09:38:38 Sir?

09:38:38 >> Me?

09:38:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Yes, sir.

09:38:45 I need your name.

09:38:47 >> Charles young Parker.

09:38:52 >> Okay, Mr. Parker.

09:38:53 >> That's why I came down here, and I wanted -- I couldn't

09:39:08 get my account number, but the city, the officer hit me in

09:39:14 the eyes, and so got this like here, and they put the ice

09:39:23 pad on it, and that's what the $30 million was for.

09:39:28 >> So you want $30 million?

09:39:31 >> No, we already sued for that.

09:39:34 >> Oh, they sued for 30 million?

09:39:36 >> Yes.

09:39:37 And I need the name of the lawyer so he can give it to me.

09:39:44 >> Who, sir?

09:39:45 >> The officer.

09:39:46 >> I guess somebody has a record of this somewhere.

09:39:49 >> I know it.

09:39:51 But, you know, it's been over five years.

09:39:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I don't know what happened.

09:40:01 But you are going to have to ask the police department for

09:40:04 the record.

09:40:04 I don't know where to turn you to.

09:40:06 >> Okay.

09:40:08 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: All right, Mr. Parker?

09:40:09 I appreciate your attendance this morning but get those

09:40:11 records from the police department.

09:40:13 Without an attorney we can't talk to you anyway because it's

09:40:17 a legal litigation.

09:40:18 >> All right.

09:40:20 >> Thank you very much.

09:40:21 Take care, my man.

09:40:23 Have a nice day.

09:40:25 Okay.

09:40:28 We need to open the workshop.

09:40:32 I have a motion by Mr. Reddick, second by Mrs. Mulhern to

09:40:34 open the workshop.

09:40:35 All in favor of the motion indicate by saying aye.

09:40:38 Opposed nay.

09:40:38 The ayes have it unanimously.

09:40:42 We'll discuss the workshop and then go to public comments

09:40:44 for three minutes on each portion of the workshop.

09:40:46 The first one is the vendor ordinance, enforcement related

09:40:50 issues, and other code enforcement issues relating to

09:40:54 property owners where you buy and sell, and then somebody

09:40:57 buys, and then you go out to the second owner, not the first

09:41:01 owner who did all the damages.

09:41:08 Let me just say this.

09:41:10 I am going to relinquish the chair to Mr. Cohen so I can

09:41:14 show you some photographs.

09:41:18 Charlie Miranda, 2918 West Lake Avenue.

09:41:48 Mr. Chairman, Cohen and council members, this is what I

09:41:51 envisioned when we passed the vendor ordinance.

09:41:53 You know, someone selling fruits and vegetables, and trying

09:41:58 to make a living.

09:42:00 Let me tell you what happened.

09:42:02 This is what we got.

09:42:10 Not only have multiple tents, traffic havoc and creating

09:42:16 blight in the neighborhood, reduction of property values,

09:42:19 refrigerated vehicles, standing there all alone, and I spoke

09:42:27 to none of the owners but speaking just by common sense what

09:42:30 they are doing here is having a business, creating

09:42:35 competition to the surrounding businesses, and not paying

09:42:39 anything to anyone other than to themselves.

09:42:42 This is another one in a different location.

09:42:44 This is on Braddock and Armenia.

09:42:50 It starts out like that.

09:42:51 And it becomes a little bit more like Gasparilla with flags.

09:42:58 And again, they come up, and they put refrigerated vehicles.

09:43:05 And this one is closed out.

09:43:06 It's gone.

09:43:07 The other one is no longer there.

09:43:09 Then you have vehicles on rights-of-way, and this is in the

09:43:14 same location.

09:43:15 This did not change.

09:43:16 But I want to present how many vehicles of different makes

09:43:20 and models within a foot and a half of the roadway are

09:43:23 parked just about every day.

09:43:25 There's one.

09:43:27 There's two.

09:43:29 And that's a Dodge.

09:43:30 And I'm sure the lady didn't want to be left out so they

09:43:35 brought their own deal.

09:43:36 This is an Isuzu.

09:43:40 Jetta wanted to have one so the next day they were there.

09:43:45 And here is another one.

09:43:48 And this one is most humorous, not to me, but there's a no

09:43:55 parking sign from here to there and what do you see?

09:43:57 And I am not trying to be vicious to anyone but we have a

09:44:00 system that doesn't work.

09:44:04 We have one intended ideas all of us.

09:44:07 And as you do these things, it gets out of hand.

09:44:12 And through the lack of persistence enforcement, not that

09:44:17 they are doing a bad job, I'm not saying that at all,

09:44:20 there's so many of them that come up once we pass these laws

09:44:23 that they can't keep up with it.

09:44:25 And it's time to understand what we have done or what we.

09:44:29 Done.

09:44:29 And that's the only reason these photos were brought up

09:44:32 today, to show you good people what our results were from

09:44:37 the ordinance.

09:44:38 And the ordinance has been in place for over a year now.

09:44:40 The vendor, over a year.

09:44:47 Does it work?

09:44:48 At times.

09:44:50 But people take advantage of it.

09:44:51 The neighbors are not happy with it.

09:44:52 There's some more on Woodlawn and Armenia.

09:44:55 And if I go to Mrs. Montelione's district or Mr. Reddick's

09:45:00 district, and all of your districts because you are

09:45:02 city-wide, you are going to find the same problem.

09:45:04 And you have decreasing property values, competition becomes

09:45:11 for the people who are running stores are paying for the

09:45:15 lease, all of a sudden has a competitor outside not paying

09:45:19 anything, or very little, and this is where we are at, and

09:45:22 this is what we either have to try to fix or change.

09:45:25 Thank you for your time.

09:45:26 >>HARRY COHEN: Mr. Reddick.

09:45:31 >>FRANK REDDICK: I sympathize with the Chairman Miranda

09:45:37 stated because I see the same vendors on the side of the

09:45:42 road doing the same thing.

09:45:44 My question becomes, who is responsible for enforcing it,

09:45:48 the rules that we have on the books?

09:45:54 These places are visible.

09:45:56 And that's my first question.

09:45:57 Who is responsible for enforcing the rules?

09:45:59 >> Catherine Coyle, Planning Manager with the city.

09:46:01 Code enforcement is actually responsible for enforcing the

09:46:04 regulations for vendors.

09:46:05 We do have a civil citation process for vendors.

09:46:08 >>FRANK REDDICK: Do you have a number how many of these

09:46:11 people have been cited in the past year?

09:46:15 >>CATHERINE COYLE: No, I don't know how many people have

09:46:17 been cited.

09:46:18 I could say there are a fair amount of cases that people

09:46:21 just pop up that don't actually have a permit.

09:46:23 We do have the ability to issue a civil citation which is

09:46:27 like a ticket to get them off the property.

09:46:30 There are cases where they do expand beyond what we have

09:46:32 permitted.

09:46:33 What we have seen predominantly is the vendors that do those

09:46:38 expansions.

09:46:38 The annual vendors that they are allowed to stay for one

09:46:41 year, period, actually do have design standards.

09:46:46 There may be too many temporary vendor permits that are

09:46:49 allowed per year.

09:46:51 When you look at the expanse of temporary vendors on the

09:46:54 smaller lots, not ones that are on the large parcels.

09:46:59 They are allowed to stay for 45 days at a time, and I think

09:47:02 six permits per year which is nine months essentially.

09:47:05 I don't know how temporarily that is.

09:47:08 You have the ability to restrict those and limit them on the

09:47:10 smaller properties, which would be the ones that you have

09:47:12 shown.

09:47:15 They are not annual vendors, they are temporary.

09:47:17 If they were annual, they would have some type of mobile

09:47:21 track or cart or something else that was a little more

09:47:23 formal, not necessarily just a tent that they pop up on the

09:47:26 corner.

09:47:27 As far as the cars that you showed, though, that's duly not

09:47:30 part of the vendor regulations.

09:47:32 They appear to be in the right-of-way which should quite

09:47:34 frankly be ticketed or towed off the right-of-way.

09:47:37 >>FRANK REDDICK: Some of the pictures that Mr. Miranda

09:47:41 showed signs where the property was for sale or lease, and I

09:47:49 want to know, you may not be able to answer a question, but

09:47:52 I want to know if the property owner is giving these people

09:47:57 permission to do it on their property, because I saw some

09:48:01 signs that said for sale or lease and then I saw these big

09:48:05 trucks parked behind them, and I saw the fruit stands.

09:48:08 I'm wondering did the property owner give these people

09:48:11 permission of doing this property?

09:48:15 >>CATHERINE COYLE: As part of the vendor permit, those air

09:48:18 conditioned trailers are not permitted.

09:48:19 But beyond that, the property owner has to sign off on the

09:48:24 application granting permission for them to apply for

09:48:27 special use permit.

09:48:28 That's any special use permit including a vendor.

09:48:32 The property owner has to sign off.

09:48:34 >> A final question, is there any way we can find out

09:48:37 whether any of those vendors have been cited in the past

09:48:40 year?

09:48:41 Do we have a record of knowing what it is, any of those

09:48:45 vendors been cited?

09:48:48 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I don't want to speak for Mr. Slater

09:48:50 about you I'm sure he can research the vendors, the types

09:48:55 that they are.

09:48:55 >>JAKE SLATER: Services division, City of Tampa.

09:49:02 I can track that for you.

09:49:05 Right offhand I don't have that information available.

09:49:07 I know that on the vendor enforcement, we have to refer back

09:49:12 over for their interpretation of the zoning issues.

09:49:18 Then it comes back to us for the enforcement.

09:49:22 Normally, when we get a referral back from the zoning

09:49:25 department, we go out and issue a warning, and that actual

09:49:29 warning can be an hour, it can be up until 21 days, but we

09:49:34 have to give them reasonable amount of time to move it.

09:49:41 And that's how we actually do it.

09:49:44 But we do have a problem.

09:49:46 I mean, the chairman is right, we do have a problem in the

09:49:49 City of Tampa with unauthorized vendors.

09:49:51 >>HARRY COHEN: Mr. Suarez.

09:50:02 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Ms. Coyle, the temporary ordinance is on the

09:50:09 for those parcels that are already disowned for commercial

09:50:12 activity, correct?

09:50:16 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Yes.

09:50:16 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I think Mr. Miranda showed us some that may

09:50:20 have been more personal property as opposed to -- and I may

09:50:25 be wrong about that but I thought there were a few in there

09:50:28 that were more residential as opposed to commercial.

09:50:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I think they are commercial because they

09:50:36 are in the corner of Armenia and corner of busy

09:50:40 intersections so even though there are residents all around

09:50:43 them, a commercial corridor more than likely, you know.

09:50:49 >>CATHERINE COYLE: You will see how east Martin Luther King

09:50:52 is commercially zoned but there are houses throughout, on

09:50:55 the Main Street.

09:50:56 They just happened to be zoned commercial.

09:50:58 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Because one of the issues, you know, and

09:51:01 Chairman Miranda pointed out something that we have been

09:51:04 seeing a lot in the neighborhood in which we live in, and

09:51:11 what used to be a commercial business, whether it's a tire

09:51:15 store or something else, now all of a sudden has a

09:51:17 restaurant on the outside, cooking, or they might have, you

09:51:22 know, people selling rugs, they may be selling poinsettias

09:51:28 this time of year, and there's no way for the neighborhood

09:51:31 to know if they are permitted or not permitted.

09:51:35 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Well, we issue a placard.

09:51:37 They should have the placard posted.

09:51:38 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I know, but when you are passing by,

09:51:41 downtown really stop to say, well, gosh, let me see what the

09:51:45 placard says.

09:51:46 But there's one in our neighborhood, in the neighborhood I

09:51:48 live in, that has been there for years, and he's had a

09:51:51 temporary -- but he meets the guidelines, as you mentioned.

09:51:56 When it becomes a more permanent structure as opposed to a

09:51:59 temporary vending license.

09:52:01 So sometimes we don't even know which one is temporary and

09:52:03 which one is not temporary.

09:52:04 All we know is that it pops up.

09:52:06 And we don't know if it's legal or not.

09:52:09 And I think Mr. Slater was talking about how, you know, we

09:52:12 need to probably tighten up on what those rules are in terms

09:52:15 of -- not the rules, but the enforcement aspect of it, which

09:52:21 is knowing where these places are at, so then we can track

09:52:25 them better.

09:52:26 And the second thing you mentioned in talking about the

09:52:29 ordinance, maybe we need to tighten up on the number of

09:52:33 vending permits and the number of days that they might have.

09:52:37 And we might have to limit the days on that.

09:52:40 So I think that we might want to come back and get some more

09:52:43 information so we know how to really enforce this and

09:52:46 tighten it up so we don't have a situation where I think the

09:52:49 car lot, the temporary car lot that we saw, seems like every

09:52:52 day or every other day, is a new vehicle.

09:52:55 Does that meet the criteria that they shouldn't be doing

09:52:58 that or should be doing that?

09:53:00 Maybe we have to make sure that it's not certain types of

09:53:03 activities.

09:53:04 I'm not sure.

09:53:04 But anyway --

09:53:06 >> As a vendor, you wouldn't be selling cars.

09:53:13 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: That's an assumption is.

09:53:13 >> You have to have a state license to sell automobiles.

09:53:17 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Exactly.

09:53:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I think you could sell up to three or

09:53:22 five vehicles a year.

09:53:24 I'm not sure.

09:53:24 I haven't kept up with it.

09:53:27 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The one I am speaking of because we did

09:53:29 split the difference on temporary vendors, we did 25 acres

09:53:32 or more.

09:53:33 They are the ones that are predominantly the pumpkins, the

09:53:38 Christmas trees, the seasonal type vendors.

09:53:41 Then we have the ones on properties less than 25 acres, you

09:53:44 get six permits per year, 45 days per permit.

09:53:48 That is where you may want to limit either the number of

09:53:51 permits, the number of days, or both.

09:53:54 Because those are the ones that have a lot less restriction

09:53:56 on how they look and how potential impacts, because they are

09:54:02 supposedly temporary.

09:54:04 >>MIKE SUAREZ: I would definitely like a little more

09:54:06 information on the permits we already have out there and how

09:54:10 many have passed that point and actually have not followed

09:54:14 the ordinance, especially one of those refrigerated trucks.

09:54:20 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The other thing I would offer as far as

09:54:22 annual vendors, something for you to think about, there is a

09:54:24 set list of streets where annual vendors are allowed to be

09:54:28 located.

09:54:29 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Okay.

09:54:31 >>CATHERINE COYLE: You may want to consider having a set

09:54:33 list of streets for vendors, period.

09:54:38 At that point as an endorsement officer if you are on

09:54:41 MacDill, and MacDill is not on the list, not

09:54:44 allowed, it might Machen forcement a little easier.

09:54:47 >>LISA MONTELIONE: It's true, we see these everywhere.

09:54:54 And some of them just pop up, and they are selling T-shirts,

09:55:03 you know, around the time of a particular event in town,

09:55:09 whether it's sporting event or an election or, you know,

09:55:12 some other -- associated with some other thing that's going

09:55:17 on in town.

09:55:18 But what I think we have -- because the ordinance that we

09:55:23 have on the books right now, like every issue we have that

09:55:32 rises its head is enforcement, and code enforcement.

09:55:36 Right now, the way code enforcement works is someone has to

09:55:41 complain.

09:55:41 So someone has to pick up the phone or send an e-mail, and

09:55:45 let code enforcement know about it.

09:55:47 Code enforcement doesn't ride around and spot these issues

09:55:54 on a proactive basis because they simply don't have the

09:55:57 personnel to handle that.

09:56:00 And so I think the ordinance we have is fine.

09:56:04 I would hesitate -- I mean, Ms. Coyle's suggestion that a

09:56:09 list of streets, because we get into some issues of, well,

09:56:15 are you only allowing these in one particular area, say

09:56:24 Martin Luther King or Hillsborough Avenue or 40th Street,

09:56:28 you know, there's a target list.

09:56:30 And I hesitate to go that route.

09:56:33 Maybe criteria, if the streets meet these criteria. But I

09:56:40 hesitate to put in a list of streets.

09:56:42 And it's just to me an enforcement issue.

09:56:47 And if code enforcement has the resources to do not only

09:56:52 this type of vendor enforcement, but they are also

09:56:57 responsible for, you know, the rental unit enforcement and

09:57:00 they are also responsible for abandoned houses and

09:57:04 maintenance and high weeds, and there's so many things that

09:57:09 code enforcement is responsible for, that I just don't think

09:57:12 they have the resources to fulfill all of these duties.

09:57:18 And again, I think the ordinance we have is fine.

09:57:21 I just think that code enforcement doesn't have the

09:57:24 resources to really monitor and police the ordinances we

09:57:28 have on the books.

09:57:31 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Any other council member?

09:57:33 Let me say this.

09:57:35 Let me say this.

09:57:37 I understand that code enforcement doesn't have the

09:57:42 resources, but the process is not working, and it may never

09:57:46 work unless we change.

09:57:47 I don't know at the time that they apply these permits if

09:57:49 they sign an affidavit stating that they are not going to do

09:57:52 what they are doing.

09:57:53 They are all doing it.

09:57:56 You get a little card, you aren't supposed to have no tables

09:57:58 and chairs and some places have been cited five or six times

09:58:02 and they are still there.

09:58:02 I am not saying to move them.

09:58:04 But they don't care.

09:58:06 Got in one ear and out the other.

09:58:08 They don't understand, or they don't care, or so what?

09:58:11 Take me out of here, because that takes 21 days to process.

09:58:17 And maybe we are responsible for it.

09:58:19 Maybe I'm responsible for it.

09:58:20 But it's got to change.

09:58:22 I drive and drive and drive.

09:58:24 And all I see is things that are not -- the intent and what

09:58:29 happens is actually different.

09:58:33 Did not turn out like all of us wished.

09:58:35 The reindeer grew horns and gored us.

09:58:40 It changed.

09:58:41 It's a different animal.

09:58:43 And it doesn't look appealing.

09:58:45 It doesn't look right.

09:58:49 It's bringing down neighborhoods.

09:58:51 At the same time, we are trying to help the people that need

09:58:53 a little help.

09:58:54 I understand that.

09:58:56 But maybe somewhere -- who is the chairman of this committee

09:59:04 and code enforcement and so forth and so on here?

09:59:07 Is it public works?

09:59:08 Is it --

09:59:13 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Does it fall understood building and

09:59:15 zoning?

09:59:15 >> It's enforcement.

09:59:17 I'm not really sure.

09:59:18 Just so you know --

09:59:20 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It's got to change.

09:59:23 Somehow your office and my office has to meet so I can

09:59:25 relate this to the council, come up together collectively

09:59:28 with legal and come up with a new plan, because this plan,

09:59:33 this stuff about I'm here and it takes 21 days, I don't care

09:59:37 if I got to file a lawsuit that same day.

09:59:39 I'm to that point, and I'll do it personally. I don't need

09:59:42 the city to help me out.

09:59:44 I'm just tired of seeing what I see.

09:59:46 I'm just exhausted in seeing the neighborhoods the way they

09:59:50 are.

09:59:51 It doesn't look appealing.

09:59:52 You come into the city.

09:59:53 And what you see, you say, what is this?

09:59:56 It doesn't look good.

09:59:58 No one wants to make an investment when you come into a

10:00:01 neighborhood and see something like that.

10:00:03 And I'm not scolding you.

10:00:06 You're just the recipient of the words.

10:00:09 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I understand.

10:00:11 They do sign a certificate of compliance and all the

10:00:13 criteria, they do sign affidavits saying they will comply.

10:00:18 They will clear the property of all debris. Remove

10:00:20 everything every day.

10:00:21 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Do they put up a bond?

10:00:23 Do they put up anything?

10:00:25 >>CATHERINE COYLE: No.

10:00:26 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: There's your problem.

10:00:26 >> I agree.

10:00:30 >>JAKE SLATER: I'm in charge of code enforcement with the

10:00:37 City of Tampa.

10:00:38 We have about 25 officers handling 350,000 people in the

10:00:41 City of Tampa.

10:00:42 I would strongly support a change in the vendor ordinance.

10:00:45 Give us the tools to do it.

10:00:47 Tell us what you want.

10:00:50 But we need the tools to do it so it's not a complicated

10:00:53 procedure.

10:00:54 Make it shorter.

10:00:55 Make it faster.

10:00:56 Make it easily understood.

10:00:57 And I will be more than happy to do it.

10:01:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You are in the mix with Ms. Coyle.

10:01:02 We will be contacting you.

10:01:04 Mrs. Capin.

10:01:06 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Just a thought.

10:01:07 Maybe color code the placard so that it will be visible from

10:01:12 the street.

10:01:14 Color code.

10:01:15 A temporary as opposed to an annual as opposed to -- and

10:01:17 that way, would you know from the street exactly what they

10:01:22 are supposed to be doing when you drive by.

10:01:27 You know, we have had this come up.

10:01:29 Code enforcement, code enforcement, code enforcement.

10:01:32 This is what happens.

10:01:35 We had several years of budget cuts, and they are across the

10:01:40 board.

10:01:40 Instead of actually looking at the departments, and actually

10:01:43 seeing and doing the hard work, it's easier to cut across

10:01:49 the board than to actually look at each department and see

10:01:55 where you can cut and where you cannot afford to cut.

10:02:02 And this is one of those areas that was cut, and now we are

10:02:05 talking about 25 officers -- this is not a small city and we

10:02:17 have done this year after year after we are.

10:02:20 The hard work is looking at the departments and doing

10:02:22 thoughts cuts, across-the-board cuts.

10:02:25 This is the result that we are looking at today,

10:02:27 unfortunately.

10:02:27 We can look at this forever.

10:02:29 And until we actually do not fund, as we do the police

10:02:33 officers and we do the fire department, we have to fund

10:02:35 these departments to do this work.

10:02:40 It's almost like piling on.

10:02:44 In my estimation.

10:02:48 I don't know of another year across the board, and here is

10:02:54 what we have done.

10:02:57 This is what has happened.

10:02:58 The service to the community is not there.

10:03:01 It is lacking.

10:03:02 Why?

10:03:03 We cut across the board.

10:03:04 It's the easy way out.

10:03:08 We need to do the hard work and we need to look at the

10:03:11 department.

10:03:11 And I suggest that to the administration for the following

10:03:14 year.

10:03:14 Thank you.

10:03:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.

10:03:16 Mr. Reddick.

10:03:16 >>FRANK REDDICK: I just wants to make a motion and that is

10:03:22 ask the chairman and code enforcement and planning

10:03:25 department to come back to council with a recommendation,

10:03:28 and legal department, to strengthen the vendor ordinance for

10:03:35 the City of Tampa.

10:03:37 How much time do you all need?

10:03:43 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Do you need 60 days?

10:03:44 At most 60 days.

10:03:45 >>CATHERINE COYLE: We can come back in the January

10:03:50 workshop.

10:03:51 >>FRANK REDDICK: In the January.

10:03:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Cohen.

10:03:57 Second by -- Mr. Reddick, I'm sorry.

10:04:00 >>HARRY COHEN: It would be January 31st at 10 a.m.

10:04:04 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: There were three sides.

10:04:09 Who seconded the motion?

10:04:11 Mr. Suarez seconded that motion.

10:04:16 The clerk would like to have the motion.

10:04:18 >>FRANK REDDICK: The motion was to have Chairman Miranda,

10:04:25 code enforcement department, to meet to work out an

10:04:30 ordinance to strengthen the rules on the vendor ordinance

10:04:40 and report back January 31st, 2013 at 10 a.m.

10:04:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Reddick.

10:04:50 Seconded by Mr. Suarez.

10:04:51 All in favor of the motion please indicate by saying aye.

10:04:56 Anyone in the audience care to speak to this item?

10:04:58 Please come forward.

10:04:59 >> Pete Johnson, 510 Harrison street.

10:05:05 As you all know I studied code enforcement going on 20

10:05:08 years.

10:05:09 Okay.

10:05:10 The process of any enforcement of any of the ordinances is

10:05:17 broken completely.

10:05:19 Civil citations doesn't mean anything.

10:05:23 You write a check and put it in the mail.

10:05:25 It's a part of doing business.

10:05:26 Where you go to court, and the judge gives you another 90

10:05:29 days and cuts your fine.

10:05:32 I'm sorry.

10:05:35 Citations aren't working, all right?

10:05:38 The other problem is the process.

10:05:41 You get a notice.

10:05:42 Then you get three months to comply.

10:05:44 Then you get another three months to comply.

10:05:46 Then you get another three months to comply.

10:05:49 If you p finally comply about before the date of your actual

10:05:52 hearing the case is closed.

10:05:55 People need to come down and be held accountable by their

10:06:01 peers.

10:06:03 If the case is complied by the time the first hearing, you

10:06:07 don't charge them a fine, but you find them guilty of the

10:06:13 violation on the date, on the time of the written notice.

10:06:18 Just like if you go to traffic court.

10:06:21 Come on.

10:06:24 All of these people that get citations or code violations,

10:06:29 they are repetitive.

10:06:35 This book has 3,000 addresses of rental properties in the

10:06:39 East Tampa neighborhood.

10:06:41 Every single one has an enormous history of code violations,

10:06:50 whether they are heard and they are considered a violation

10:06:53 because they are judged a violation or not, they are

10:06:56 violations of city ordinances.

10:06:57 But none of them are held accountable.

10:07:00 I just now got a trailer park that was the most disgusting

10:07:10 livable conditions I have ever seen closed down after 20

10:07:13 years.

10:07:15 Of violations.

10:07:16 I'm sorry.

10:07:18 We have the tools.

10:07:19 We can go get a court order.

10:07:23 They have got the history.

10:07:25 They don't need to drive around and look at everything.

10:07:29 They need to pick up and look at the history.

10:07:32 And see the bad guys.

10:07:34 And take these bad guys to court or make them come here and

10:07:38 face their peers.

10:07:41 The constant forgiveness, because you just comply without

10:07:46 continuous compliance?

10:07:48 That is what's gotten Tampa behind the 8 ball.

10:07:53 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

10:07:53 Anyone else in the audience care to speak?

10:08:00 >> 921 East Broad Street, Susan Long.

10:08:04 I was on code board for three, three and a half year, never

10:08:07 once was there a repeat offender.

10:08:10 Never.

10:08:11 There is no such thing in Tampa.

10:08:14 I had a neighbor who used to buy mini warehouses, fill a

10:08:21 trailer up and dump in the her front yard.

10:08:23 Code would cite her.

10:08:25 Then give her more time.

10:08:26 Then give her more time.

10:08:28 Then they finally set a hearing.

10:08:30 The day before the hearing, she would throw it over the

10:08:34 fence so you couldn't see it.

10:08:35 Code would come out.

10:08:37 And this went on month after month after month.

10:08:41 Finally, she moved and code cannot do anything about that.

10:08:53 There is no repeat violator.

10:08:55 And nobody can do anything oh to you.

10:09:00 They can bring you down to code and give you a fine, fine

10:09:04 goes on, totally uncollectible, can't ever be collected

10:09:07 because it's homesteaded property.

10:09:09 And then when you sell the house, usually the response is,

10:09:13 let's set the fine way down because we would rather have

10:09:16 somebody who is not a pig living there, so we'll let them

10:09:19 go.

10:09:19 So if you own your own property, there is absolutely no

10:09:23 reason whatsoever for you to abide by code or pay any

10:09:27 attention to fines that are accumulating because there isn't

10:09:30 anything they can do to you.

10:09:31 There's no way to collect it.

10:09:33 It just goes on.

10:09:34 They get annoyed enough, that as long as those fines are

10:09:37 running they can't give you a citation.

10:09:42 Now they can give you a citation.

10:09:44 You have to go to circuit court, and the judge gives you a

10:09:47 fine of $75, $50 or something and it's over.

10:09:52 Code does not work in this city.

10:09:55 Thank you.

10:10:06 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Under this system.

10:10:07 Ms. Mulhern.

10:10:08 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm not sure if both speakers are still on

10:10:13 the Code Enforcement Board or not.

10:10:15 No?

10:10:16 Neither?

10:10:16 So I would like to suggest that maybe Councilwoman

10:10:21 Montelione or one of us sit down and meet with you, get your

10:10:28 recommendations, and come back to us with Mr. Slater, and

10:10:40 come back to us and we'll fix it.

10:10:42 So these are volunteers for the city for five years on the

10:10:46 same issue.

10:10:47 And I think we can fix it.

10:10:48 I would like to see us do that.

10:10:50 >> You volunteer then?

10:11:01 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm volunteering Mrs. Montelione.

10:11:04 [ Laughter ]

10:11:05 If she doesn't want to do it -- I think she is best

10:11:15 qualified, and the person with that committee, she should do

10:11:18 it.

10:11:19 If she doesn't want to, I'll meet with them and work on it.

10:11:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Make that as a motion, Mrs. Mulhern.

10:11:27 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Hang on.

10:11:30 If I understood the last motion made by Mr. Reddick, that's

10:11:34 what we were just kind of directed to do.

10:11:36 And I believe I'm sharing that responsibility with you,

10:11:39 chair Miranda.

10:11:42 So although we cannot work together because it would be a

10:11:47 sunshine law violation, we can each meet with staff to

10:11:52 address the concern that chair Miranda has in the realm that

10:11:59 he presented this morning with the photographs, and I can

10:12:03 certainly meet with staff as well on my own, and address the

10:12:08 language of the code to make some of the suggestions that

10:12:14 Susan and long and Pete Johnson made.

10:12:17 I met with both of them on occasion on other items for code

10:12:21 enforcement that has come up before.

10:12:24 So we will continue to work on this together.

10:12:29 >> I want to say so you are aware of it and the public is

10:12:41 aware of it, just because you meet with the same people they

10:12:44 cannot act as a conduit and you actively cannot communicate

10:12:47 with each other in order to effect the work product.

10:12:51 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Exactly.

10:12:53 I would be asking questions of staff to give me the

10:12:55 information that I need to make decisions based on revising

10:12:59 the code.

10:13:00 >>FRANK REDDICK: Mr. Chair, I just want to ask Mr. Slater

10:13:03 one question.

10:13:09 Mr. Johnson comes before us almost every meeting that we

10:13:12 have and discuss the infraction about code enforcement

10:13:19 violations.

10:13:20 And the one that stood out to me the most this determine is

10:13:25 when he said there are 3,000 in East Tampa, violations in

10:13:31 East Tampa.

10:13:32 That's a lot.

10:13:34 And if that number is true, do you agree with that number?

10:13:46 Or do you feel the number is that high in East Tampa?

10:13:49 Because that is a tremendous number for him to cite 3,000.

10:13:57 And I just wanted to state on the record that I was a little

10:14:05 frustrated to hear that, if though numbers are accurate.

10:14:08 And I would like to know what attention can be drawn, what

10:14:12 immediate attention can be drawn to address those numbers if

10:14:19 accurate.

10:14:20 Because that's quite a bit of numbers, 3,000 in one area.

10:14:25 >>JAKE SLATER: I don't know exactly where Mr. Johnson has

10:14:32 obtained his overall numbers.

10:14:34 I know he spend as lot of time down at our office.

10:14:36 And it's easy to sit back and grab numbers without knowing

10:14:43 what is going on behind the scenes.

10:14:46 And I think that he was referring to the number of actually

10:14:49 rental properties in the East Tampa zones.

10:14:52 And I think that -- and I don't want to speak for him, but I

10:14:57 think he alleges that there's active code violations on

10:15:01 efferential property which is not a fact.

10:15:05 Each of the rental properties has a certificate under code.

10:15:10 I can tell you that not every rental property in the East

10:15:12 Tampa zones are active code offenses.

10:15:25 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I am not going to allow that, I don't

10:15:27 want to get into a debate, I said, he said, we all said.

10:15:31 We are going to work on the problem and try to fix it.

10:15:34 Ms. Capin.

10:15:38 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I am not going to be part of the committee.

10:15:40 I want to give my suggestions now.

10:15:42 I agree with the chairman on the bond.

10:15:44 That really is important.

10:15:45 And the fees to cover the inspections and give -- empower,

10:15:52 empower, as much as we can, empower the code enforcement and

10:15:58 our police officers to hold them down, to pin them down.

10:16:06 Those are just some of the suggestions.

10:16:08 I'm sure I'll come up with more.

10:16:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.

10:16:11 Mr. Cohen.

10:16:11 >>JAKE SLATER: Mr. Chairman and City Council, I get as

10:16:23 frustrated as everybody else in the current systems.

10:16:27 Code enforcement not a immediate fix, not an easy fix, it's

10:16:31 a cumbersome fix.

10:16:33 And I get as frustrated and angry, I have to go take a walk

10:16:37 sometimes, because it's hard to stand up here and have to

10:16:41 defend yourself on a weekly, monthly basis.

10:16:45 Give me the tools to do the job, give me the personnel to do

10:16:48 the job, and I'll take care of it.

10:16:51 That's all I ask.

10:16:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Hope you don't have a bulldozer in mind.

10:17:01 But I understand.

10:17:02 Mr. Cohen.

10:17:02 >>HARRY COHEN: Two brief comments.

10:17:06 First of all, this started as a discussion of the vendor

10:17:10 ordinance.

10:17:10 But it's evolved into a larger examination of code

10:17:13 enforcement.

10:17:14 And I would like to suggest to the council members that are

10:17:18 going to work specifically on this that we also look, since

10:17:24 we are going to be looking at enforcement issues, that we

10:17:26 look at the enforcement of our codes involving illegal

10:17:30 dumping, because that is a whole other problem that is

10:17:34 pervasive throughout the city.

10:17:35 And I wanted to just make a comment regarding something

10:17:38 Councilwoman Capin said.

10:17:40 She was talking about the effects of overall budget cuts,

10:17:44 and I think she was describing indiscriminate cutting as

10:17:50 opposed to the weighing of different priorities.

10:17:52 But I would suggest that certainly there's some of that, but

10:17:56 I would suggest there is another problem, and that is that

10:18:03 austerity and cutting have taken us to a point where basic

10:18:06 government services are not being funded anymore.

10:18:09 You know, it's not just code enforcement.

10:18:12 It's the condition of our roads and our sidewalks, and our

10:18:15 bridges, and a lot of our infrastructure, and the

10:18:19 frustration that is being expressed.

10:18:21 As a frustration that I think you are hearing from the

10:18:24 department is that many, many years of austerity and cutting

10:18:28 have finally taken us to a place where our departments in

10:18:32 some cases just can't even perform their basic functions

10:18:35 anymore.

10:18:36 And I think that oftentimes when you are faced with budget

10:18:43 cuts, the impact of them isn't felt right away.

10:18:48 It's not felt necessarily in the first year or second year

10:18:51 after the cuts are made, because people manage to somehow

10:18:54 keep the momentum of things going for a little while.

10:18:57 But when you get into the third and the fourth and the fifth

10:18:59 year of austerity, you really start to see the breakdown.

10:19:05 And I think it should serve as a warning to us and to the

10:19:09 community that we are reaching a point where we just can't

10:19:14 cut anymore and expect to be able to perform basic services.

10:19:22 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.

10:19:23 Mrs. Montelione.

10:19:23 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.

10:19:28 Something that Councilwoman Capin said.

10:19:31 The bond may be great.

10:19:35 You always have great suggestions when it comes to these

10:19:37 kinds of issues.

10:19:38 So we haven't formed a committee to look at this.

10:19:42 And it's just every council member is more than welcome to

10:19:48 meet with staff as we do with the production of any

10:19:50 ordinance.

10:19:52 So just because it's all under my committee I welcome

10:19:57 everybody to meet with Jake and Cathy and Susan and Pete and

10:20:02 come up with suggestions that, you know, individually you

10:20:06 can make to staff as the changes in the ordinance are being

10:20:10 prepared.

10:20:11 So this is a committee of seven is.

10:20:17 So everybody please participate and lend your advice to

10:20:22 staff for that.

10:20:24 And I agree with everything that has been said about the

10:20:30 budget, because we have to really be careful when we are

10:20:38 looking at some of the taxation issues.

10:20:43 There was a piece that appeared in the Tribune prior to the

10:20:46 election where I expressed concern about our citizens,

10:20:53 having the trust in us to spend their tax dollars wisely,

10:20:59 and how those who are out there who continually say that

10:21:03 they don't trust elected officials with their tax money, and

10:21:08 we should not allow elected officials to use tax money in

10:21:15 certain ways.

10:21:17 These are the things tax moneys are used for.

10:21:21 These services of code enforcement, of fire rescue, of TPD,

10:21:28 or police departments, of all the necessary work that the

10:21:32 city does, that the county does, these things are what tax

10:21:38 dollars are meant to be used for.

10:21:41 And I just want to say we made very difficult decisions

10:21:55 because of the economy.

10:21:57 But I think that code enforcement or any other parks or

10:22:00 neighborhoods has got to be -- has to be a priority of a

10:22:09 council, of a mayor, because without it being a priority,

10:22:16 it's not going to get the attention.

10:22:22 So if, now-Jake is very frustrated.

10:22:26 I spent many, many hours with Jake.

10:22:28 And it's not because he doesn't want to take care of these

10:22:33 issues.

10:22:33 He cares very deeply.

10:22:35 He doesn't have the resources to do it.

10:22:38 And the only way to give him the resources is to give him

10:22:43 the tax dollars that he needs to address these issues in our

10:22:49 city.

10:22:50 It's not gonna happen any other way.

10:22:54 And in the cases that Mr. Johnson cites, no matter what the

10:22:58 number, they have been ongoing.

10:23:01 I mean, I can name several in just a four-block area around

10:23:07 my house that have been ongoing for in excess of ten years.

10:23:16 This is not a new problem.

10:23:18 And Mr. Reddick and, you know, every single one of us can

10:23:24 probably do the same thing and come up with a list right off

10:23:27 the top of our heads.

10:23:28 It's been a long, long time.

10:23:30 So ten years ago the economy was good.

10:23:35 It has to be the priority of an administration.

10:23:38 It has to be a priority of council.

10:23:40 Thank you.

10:23:42 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

10:23:42 All right.

10:23:43 That was the first part, I believe, of item number 2.

10:23:46 The second part was, if I remember, enforcement issues

10:23:50 related to new property owners.

10:23:52 You buy a house, unknowingly, and you all of a sudden,

10:23:56 bingo, I'm here from the government to help you.

10:24:00 Because the prior owner that sold you the house, that paid

10:24:04 the money or lost the money on the house -- you can lose as

10:24:07 well as you can make -- all of a sudden had done things that

10:24:09 he or she should have not done, and now we go after the new

10:24:13 property owner.

10:24:14 And maybe that may be legally right, but, you know, I get

10:24:21 bored at times because I'm by myself and I drive the whole

10:24:25 area I represent.

10:24:26 I'm not trying to brag.

10:24:27 I'm not or anything like that.

10:24:31 On Sundays, I read both newspapers from front to back.

10:24:34 And there are some things that are coming that my black suit

10:24:38 has been ironed and sent to the cleaners.

10:24:40 I can tell you that when you look at these things, and you

10:24:43 look around, and you say why?

10:24:47 Desperate people do desperate things.

10:24:49 Bank robbers go to the bank to rob because of the money.

10:24:52 And you start to realize that it's not all roses.

10:24:59 There are some thorns in the bushes no matter how nice the

10:25:05 flower looks.

10:25:06 When you do these things, on Sundays, I read "The Tampa

10:25:08 Tribune" and "Tampa Bay Times," and both of them have a

10:25:13 section about homes that were sold throughout the city.

10:25:18 And you can pick central area, Northern Area, South Tampa

10:25:22 area, and I drive, and I see all the houses that are sold,

10:25:26 and I look at them, and I said, did they overpay or did they

10:25:30 underpay?

10:25:31 Did they get a good deal or a bad deal?

10:25:34 I don't know why I do that, but I do it.

10:25:36 And then it comes to my knowledge, do I see a house that

10:25:39 says, I wonder why this house brought much more money than

10:25:42 the one that sold two months ago down the block?

10:25:45 So I get out of the car, and I look out the window, and

10:25:49 houses for sale, it's vacant.

10:25:51 All of a sudden I see like, you know, somebody inadvertently

10:25:57 without knowingly dug a trench through concrete, about a

10:26:04 foot and a half, two feet, and you can see where they are

10:26:06 starting to lay the plumbing, but it's not inside the house.

10:26:10 It on the outside of the house, or under the carport, and

10:26:14 they are enclosing the carport, they ran out of money,

10:26:17 somebody sold the house.

10:26:19 All of a sudden where there was no door, there are now two

10:26:23 front doors.

10:26:24 Oh, that's not to be suspect, it just people like to go two

10:26:29 doors.

10:26:30 One likes to go in the north area and the wife likes to go

10:26:32 in the Southern Area, I guess.

10:26:34 So becomes humorous.

10:26:37 You think, how wonderful.

10:26:39 Whoever is going to buy that house is going to have a

10:26:41 problem, or already has a problem, because the office has

10:26:44 received calls on this.

10:26:46 And what happens is, they convert them to more than single

10:26:52 family dwellings.

10:26:53 I can tell you that there's so many in West Tampa that you

10:26:57 can't go back and redo what's already there.

10:27:01 It's just legally impossible, I think.

10:27:03 So how do you solve this problem?

10:27:06 Or is it an acceptable problem?

10:27:08 I don't know.

10:27:09 So do you close your eyes and keep driving?

10:27:12 I can tell you that if you drove the streets, especially on

10:27:17 the weekends, you see all this being done, all the weekend

10:27:22 primarily.

10:27:23 It doesn't mean it has to happen during the week.

10:27:26 So what are we going to do if we are going to do anything at

10:27:28 all?

10:27:29 And that's the question that I pose to the administration

10:27:31 and the people that are in this room today, is it impossible

10:27:36 to solve?

10:27:38 I can name you the houses by memory that I have seen.

10:27:43 It's not that difficult.

10:27:45 But I would say in the whole city a couple of hundred, 200,

10:27:51 300, 400 of them.

10:27:53 I don't know. Maybe a thousand of them.

10:27:55 I can tell you in the neighborhood that I live, there's

10:27:57 many.

10:27:58 And they are no longer single-family dwellings.

10:28:01 How do you know that?

10:28:02 When you see a house that has a 50 or 60-foot frontage by

10:28:07 100 and you see nine cars parked in the front yard, like

10:28:10 this, and you see them take there in the corner they park on

10:28:15 the right-of-way, not that they aren't parking on the

10:28:20 right-of-way now -- and I understand if you have kids, 12

10:28:22 and 13 when you bought the house, now everybody is 19 and

10:28:25 20, instead of having two cars you have five cars.

10:28:28 I don't understand the two doors, though.

10:28:31 If everybody lives in the same house, why have two front

10:28:34 doors?

10:28:35 These are the things that we are going to have to cope with

10:28:42 sooner or later.

10:28:43 I don't know if there's anyone in the audience from the

10:28:44 administration, from the legal department.

10:28:46 I don't want you to feel left out, Mr. Shimberg.

10:28:49 Notice I didn't say Mr. Territo yet.

10:28:51 But what I am saying is, how do you solve these problems, if

10:28:54 you are going to solve them at all?

10:28:56 Maybe they are not even solvable of the.

10:28:58 Because we have let this -- I don't know who is responsible

10:29:03 for seeing that it didn't happen, but it happened, and it's

10:29:07 continuing to happen, because I see it.

10:29:09 I see it.

10:29:11 Yet we go after the individual who has a two-inch overhang

10:29:14 into the neighbor's property and say, hey, what are you

10:29:17 doing here?

10:29:18 Well, somebody is building a house next door, nobody sees

10:29:21 that.

10:29:21 And I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

10:29:23 I'm saying just take your time and drive a little slower and

10:29:26 you will be surprised what your eyes will see.

10:29:29 It's just an amazing thing.

10:29:30 And since I'm bored, I do that.

10:29:34 The only thing I drink is Tampa city water.

10:29:37 Maybe it got too much chlorine.

10:29:41 Ms. Capin.

10:29:43 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.

10:29:44 Again, getting back to code enforcement and resources for

10:29:49 code enforcement.

10:29:53 If they have the resources could be doing what you are doing

10:29:56 is driving around and nipping in the bud what they see.

10:29:58 And I'm sure they do that.

10:30:00 But again you have 25 officers covering the other miles we

10:30:04 have in this city.

10:30:05 So again it comes down to the resources, and also just

10:30:12 adding that maybe we can look at I'm going to make a comment

10:30:16 on the vendor.

10:30:17 Could be made a misdemeanor violation as opposed to a code

10:30:24 violation and therefore could be stopped immediately.

10:30:29 Misdemeanor violation. Anyway, again I think we are going

10:30:34 back to the resources of nipping these in the bud so that

10:30:38 that problem won't be for the next buyer.

10:30:40 And I also need to look at that if the buyer did not know

10:30:44 that that was done, holding them responsible, you know, I

10:30:50 would have to know from legal how that works, how we can

10:30:53 hold people who have nothing to do with the illegal addition

10:30:59 to their home, and then purchase the home, how they can be

10:31:03 held liable.

10:31:07 Can somebody answer that?

10:31:14 >>ERNEST MUELLER: Assistant city attorney.

10:31:15 I don't know if I can answer that.

10:31:16 But number one, I want to kind of make it clear, as a city,

10:31:20 with the city ordinance we cannot make anything amiss

10:31:23 demeanor.

10:31:24 But it is a city ordinance violation.

10:31:26 Now, with that, we can take that to criminal court, and the

10:31:31 penalty can be up to 60 days in jail, or a $500 fine.

10:31:36 But be very clear, we cannot make anything a crime.

10:31:39 It is a civil ordinance violation.

10:31:42 Number two, one of the things that we are discussing, I kind

10:31:45 of want to, while we are talking about all this work that is

10:31:49 being done, I think, Mr. Miranda, we are talking about work

10:31:51 that's been done without permits by a previous owner, and

10:31:54 then a new owner is being --

10:31:58 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: They may have a permit I.don't know.

10:32:00 >>ERNEST MUELLER: To some degree we are talking about some

10:32:03 stuff without a permit.

10:32:04 One, kind of bring to the council's attention like this past

10:32:08 weekend, a wall was being built in Seminole over in Pinellas

10:32:12 County to a structure, an addition being done unpermitted.

10:32:18 It fell and killed the person.

10:32:20 That is one of the reasons why, unfortunately, we have to

10:32:23 take some sort of action when we learn about unpermitted

10:32:27 work, regardless of who the property owner is.

10:32:30 I just want to have you guys keep that in mind.

10:32:34 Is there something I haven't addressed?

10:32:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Now what do we do with this problem?

10:32:39 [ Laughter ]

10:32:46 >>YVONNE CAPIN: It was the issue of the person that

10:32:48 purchases the home that has been added to -- and it got

10:32:51 through understood the rug, whatever you want to call it,

10:32:55 and the new owner is then held responsible for that

10:33:01 violation.

10:33:03 >>ERNEST MUELLER: The new owner is responsible for whatever

10:33:05 conditions are in violation of the code on that property.

10:33:08 That is why we use usually the Code Enforcement Board

10:33:12 process for this.

10:33:13 I know we have people here that want to use the Code

10:33:15 Enforcement Board as a hammer, to punish people and make

10:33:19 people responsible immediately for that violation.

10:33:22 But that's why we try not to follow that is because we use

10:33:26 the code board as a way of trying to help people get into

10:33:30 compliance without having to deal with severe penalty of

10:33:36 trying to make them guilty or in violation of the code or

10:33:38 have to pay a fine for something that we are trying to help

10:33:41 them get fixed.

10:33:42 Code Enforcement Board we use help bring people into

10:33:48 compliance.

10:33:48 These are the types of issues that take time, that take

10:33:51 several months, takes a lot of money.

10:33:53 We don't want to hit them up right away.

10:33:55 We want to make tomorrow come.

10:33:56 A lot of times people put this off because they don't have

10:33:59 the money, they don't have the resources.

10:34:01 We use the code board to help motivate them, help tomorrow

10:34:07 come, help them come into compliance.

10:34:09 There's a lost criticism in that.

10:34:11 But that's what we are trying to do. We are trying to help

10:34:13 people with code enforcement.

10:34:15 And that's why if they come into compliance before they come

10:34:17 to the board, the case is closed down.

10:34:20 There's no need to penalize them any more if they have done

10:34:23 what they need to do and have complied.

10:34:27 >>YVONNE CAPIN: I understand.

10:34:28 Thank you for that.

10:34:30 What is the remedy for the person that has purchased, that

10:34:35 is responsible for the code violations that were not -- they

10:34:40 haven't been cited because no one knew that they added that.

10:34:46 As far as they are concerned, there's no current violation.

10:34:49 But then --

10:34:52 >>ERNEST MUELLER: Discovered that the work has been done

10:34:55 without a permit.

10:34:58 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Right.

10:34:59 >>ERNEST MUELLER: And aware there's this violation.

10:35:01 We give them time to -- let's say if it just needs to get a

10:35:05 permit at final inspections, then they need to get the

10:35:09 permit and get the inspections done.

10:35:11 Sometimes it's not that easy.

10:35:13 The work is going to require to get the permit drawing,

10:35:17 engineered sealed drawings.

10:35:19 So they are going to end up getting that, if they want to

10:35:23 keep what's there, what's been done.

10:35:25 So they will have to get -- they will have to get those

10:35:29 permits.

10:35:29 It's going take time, money.

10:35:31 That's why through the code board process we give them that

10:35:36 time and money.

10:35:37 The other alternative is to remove the work that's begun

10:35:39 been done without a permit.

10:35:41 We try and work with the people.

10:35:44 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Thank you.

10:35:45 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Ms. Mulhern.

10:35:46 >>MARY MULHERN: I'm fine.

10:35:48 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I understand what you say, Mr. Mueller,

10:35:49 and I appreciate everything that you said.

10:35:51 But the end, you have to tear it down.

10:36:04 I wasn't telling anyone anything.

10:36:06 There was no violation on the house.

10:36:09 ABC buys the house.

10:36:10 Mr. ABC.

10:36:12 From XYZ.

10:36:13 And XYZ did all of this.

10:36:16 There is no violation at all at the house.

10:36:18 ABC comes in and takes possession.

10:36:22 Hello?

10:36:22 We are here to help you.

10:36:25 You have got to go through all of this.

10:36:27 But when you do that, at the end, the house is not zoned for

10:36:32 what it has on it.

10:36:33 So therefore you can't do that.

10:36:35 So then the only option is you either tear it down, so now I

10:36:40 say 100,000, we have a figure that we speak about, and you

10:36:44 are going to tear down a 25 or $30,000 part of a structure

10:36:48 because no one in the government or any other government,

10:36:55 they saw this thing happening?

10:36:59 Where is the remedy?

10:37:04 >> I understand the complex issues.

10:37:06 Again these are usually issues that are not Shakespeare.

10:37:10 It comes out of construction services.

10:37:13 Their inspectors, I believe --

10:37:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: We are not here to hammer Jake or

10:37:17 construction services.

10:37:22 Sometimes it doesn't filter like Obama would say, this is

10:37:25 going to have to be from the top down, not from the bottom

10:37:28 up.

10:37:31 Yes, sir?

10:37:34 >>MARTIN SHELBY: Mr. Chairman, if I can just add, because I

10:37:37 think it is a complex issue and you have competing interests

10:37:40 of.

10:37:40 It's also important for council to remember that you have

10:37:43 permits and you have inspectors for a particular reason

10:37:46 because you have a Florida building code, because you have

10:37:49 health, safety and welfare standard, and to say that

10:37:53 something is built without permit, the city still has a

10:37:55 responsibility to ensure that all its citizens are afforded

10:37:58 the safety and welfare --

10:38:02 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: And the city has the responsibility to be

10:38:04 sure it's not done while it was done.

10:38:11 >>YVONNE CAPIN: Maybe we could have an ordinance with a

10:38:14 title company has to verify the air conditioned space and

10:38:22 hold the title company responsible for verifying to the

10:38:25 owner what that was supposed to be.

10:38:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: You are in charge of that committee.

10:38:34 [ Laughter ]

10:38:37 All right.

10:38:37 I'm serious.

10:38:38 I do things in a humorous way but I'm dead serious.

10:38:42 I don't want to penalize somebody who might be moving into

10:38:46 the city, never saw any of this happening, comes in, they

10:38:49 show them picturing on the Internet.

10:38:51 You buy a lot of things on the Internet now.

10:38:54 And here I am.

10:38:57 And there we are.

10:38:58 And it's a bad taste all the way around, not only for the

10:39:01 city, but for the buyer, for everyone.

10:39:05 So if Ms. Capin wants to volunteer to look at this part and

10:39:11 work aside from Mrs. Montelione and myself, with others, you

10:39:15 are more welcome to do that.

10:39:19 All right.

10:39:20 I will take that -- I want to ask, and I will get with legal

10:39:30 if I may ask council to see if there's a remedy F.not we are

10:39:34 only fooling ourselves, if those houses are there and they

10:39:37 should be reassessed, something has to happen.

10:39:40 They are single-family dwellings with multiple families

10:39:43 living in it.

10:39:46 You are supposed to check on houses that are rental

10:39:49 properties.

10:39:51 Now, that is not a rental property, I don't know what is.

10:39:54 But I'll get that with legal and see if we can work

10:39:58 something out.

10:39:59 All right.

10:39:59 I would like to go to item number 3, if I may.

10:40:04 It's to discuss the 2012 text amendment cycle.

10:40:12 She's going to ask for a continuance here by Julia Mandell.

10:40:19 You are asking for a continuance to February 28th, 2013,

10:40:26 at 10 a.m.

10:40:27 Anyone in the audience care to speak to this?

10:40:29 Anyone in the audience care to speak to the continuance

10:40:32 only?

10:40:33 Need a motion to continue.

10:40:34 >>HARRY COHEN: So moved.

10:40:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Second by Mrs. Mulhern on item number 3

10:40:37 to February 28th, 2013 at 10 a.m.

10:40:41 All in favor of the motion please indicate by saying aye.

10:40:43 Opposed nay.

10:40:44 The ayes have it unanimously.

10:40:45 Go to item number 4.

10:40:47 The text amendment discussion.

10:40:59 >>CATHERINE COYLE: The first item is rooming house

10:41:01 regulation.

10:41:01 Council made a motion to look at option force regulations on

10:41:03 rooming houses.

10:41:06 I provided you some information and background including the

10:41:09 motion that was made as well as the comparison table between

10:41:12 Tampa, Hillsborough County, Orlando, and Jacksonville.

10:41:15 How rooming houses are regulated across those four

10:41:19 jurisdictions.

10:41:19 There are similarities.

10:41:22 They are dealt with in fairly similar fashion.

10:41:24 There's only certain ways to deal with them.

10:41:27 If it's an allowed use you are going to look at the size of

10:41:30 the lodging units, how many people could potentially be in

10:41:32 there, the types of facilities that they would have,

10:41:35 plumbing fixtures and everything.

10:41:42 The documents that I gave you as well have some bullets on

10:41:45 the first page.

10:41:46 And on the second page is actually the section 19-235 that

10:41:50 deals with that very requirement, how many lavatories, water

10:41:54 closets, basins and so forth per person, per floor.

10:42:00 That's already enacted in code.

10:42:01 What I included on page 1 are the three definitions for

10:42:04 hotel, motel, lodging unit and rooming house.

10:42:07 I included those definitions because they actually all deal

10:42:11 with or reference the rooming house term.

10:42:14 I do want to make it clear that even if council asked not to

10:42:19 change any of the criteria are to rooming houses, I will be

10:42:22 bringing back to you some changes to the definitions,

10:42:24 because there are some discrepancies in the time frames and

10:42:27 how they are used with each other that makes it a little too

10:42:31 interpretive at times, which can lead to problems with

10:42:34 enforcement and making those determinations on what a

10:42:38 lodging unit is, how long it can be there and so on.

10:42:42 So there will be some minor tweaks no matter what.

10:42:46 What I did offer you is the second bullet that we do add a

10:42:51 very clear reference in the zoning code out to the rooming

10:42:54 house standards that are in chapter 19 which doesn't

10:42:57 currently is not currently reflected in code.

10:43:00 Also reference that those provisions cannot be waived.

10:43:04 Sometimes when you put something in the zoning code

10:43:07 occasionally people can ask those things be waived depending

10:43:10 on the type of process that you go through.

10:43:12 We wanted to make it clear those are basic standards for

10:43:15 that number of people, that number of fixtures and so on.

10:43:23 I did add that we should, if you are so inclined to amend

10:43:28 the code, to add section 27-282.24 for rooming houses.

10:43:35 Right now, in code, we have rooming houses of a permitted

10:43:39 use in the commercial zoning district, as well as five out

10:43:42 of nine in the Ybor City zoning district.

10:43:46 It's considered a special use, too, which requires City

10:43:50 Council approval and the multifamily residential district,

10:43:54 the RM district.

10:43:55 Rooming houses are not allowed in the single-family

10:43:57 district.

10:43:57 They are not allowed in the downtown.

10:43:59 They are not allowed in industrial district side.

10:44:05 So what I brought forward was having supplemental standards,

10:44:15 as 27-282.24.

10:44:18 There are also special use standards, 27-272 already exists.

10:44:24 We have the rooming house section in chapter 19.

10:44:28 But I give some options looking at the number of lodging

10:44:32 units.

10:44:32 By definition a rooming house has nine lodging units.

10:44:35 So the recommendation is potentially to go to six.

10:44:40 Also, looking at limits of the number of occupants.

10:44:45 Right now, the way definitions read -- and there's kind of a

10:44:49 flexibility between what a lodging unit is.

10:44:51 If you go with the first portion of the lodging unit

10:44:54 definition, it is to be occupied by one single-family unit,

10:44:58 or a family unit, which is no more than four unrelated

10:45:02 people.

10:45:04 Potentially if you have nine lodging units you could in

10:45:07 theory have 36 unrelated people.

10:45:10 However, if you have related people, it could be an

10:45:14 abundance of people.

10:45:17 We don't clearly have a minimum standard, the size of the

10:45:21 lodging unit either in our code.

10:45:23 So what we would be recommendation is a reduction to the

10:45:27 maximum number of lodging units.

10:45:30 Then I gave you options of limiting per lodging unit to a

10:45:35 simple two.

10:45:36 Or we could do a square footage requirement for the first

10:45:39 occupant, and then each additional occupant.

10:45:42 And the reason that was put in there as an option is when

10:45:44 you look across the other jurisdictions that I gave you,

10:45:49 there typically is a square footage requirement for person,

10:45:53 different jurisdictions, different square footages.

10:45:56 Way don't wants to run afoul of is the building requirement

10:45:59 so I would have a reference to the minimum standard of

10:46:01 building code in case we were last because we wouldn't be

10:46:05 able to do that.

10:46:07 I believe the VM Ybor association wrote to you and

10:46:11 recommended that we go with the two people per lodging unit.

10:46:16 I met with them this week as well as Ken, a few weeks ago,

10:46:23 the president of the VM Ybor, and to go over these code

10:46:28 amendments and options.

10:46:29 There was a general consensus from the people that I met

10:46:32 with that we should have tighter regulations on rooming

10:46:35 houses.

10:46:40 What I reflected to them or what I related to them really

10:46:43 was when we talk about enforcement, especially with these

10:46:46 types of regulations, when dealing with units, lodging

10:46:49 units, dwelling units, oftentimes it can be difficult to

10:46:55 discern that may be the lodging unit or how a specific

10:47:00 building is being split up.

10:47:01 Once that's determined, whether or not -- the easiest thing

10:47:06 to do would be to count beds or heads, let's just say.

10:47:10 If you walk in and you define what the logic unit is and you

10:47:14 have got 14 bunk beds in there, but we have a cap of two

10:47:18 people prosecutor lodging unit, you can clearly pretty much

10:47:21 identify that there's a problem with that lodging unit.

10:47:24 Keeping the measurement per person requires a little bit

10:47:27 more work on the enforcement, from the enforcement

10:47:30 perspective, but at least it's actually a hard and fast

10:47:36 number that they could measure.

10:47:37 Right now is they're isn't a measure they could use at all.

10:47:40 Then the final one would be, there is a 500-foot separation

10:47:43 between these uses as a special use.

10:47:45 There is no separational requirement as a permitted use.

10:47:48 So the recommendation would be just to carry -- the concept

10:47:53 just to carry that 500-foot separation through just as a

10:47:56 standard for rooming houses, be it a special use or

10:47:59 otherwise.

10:48:00 So basically summarizing, the key pieces that council could

10:48:04 consider would be to cap the lodging unit number to six

10:48:09 instead of nine, adding a cap in the number of people per

10:48:15 lodging unit either by square footage or by just head count.

10:48:19 And then establishing a minimum square footage for the

10:48:22 lodging unit itself.

10:48:25 Which is not actually defined right now.

10:48:29 And that's pretty much it on that particular item.

10:48:31 And then --

10:48:36 >>HARRY COHEN: Any questions by council members?

10:48:37 Mr. Suarez?

10:48:38 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Ms. Coyle, this was brought up previously

10:48:44 when we were talking about cultural assets, and there was a

10:48:49 mention about bed and breakfasts, and I wanted to ask you,

10:48:54 how does this fit within what a definition of a bed and

10:48:58 breakfast would be, would it be considered rooming house?

10:49:03 >> Bed and breakfast has its own definition which allows up

10:49:08 to 12 units, but you do have to have a resident manager

10:49:12 actually living on-site.

10:49:14 It is different in the nature and the way that it is run.

10:49:16 And bed and breakfasts are allowed pretty much everywhere in

10:49:20 all the districts predominantly by special use, but they are

10:49:25 allowed traditionally as administrative special use.

10:49:28 But they are permitted.

10:49:29 >>MIKE SUAREZ: In terms of the rooming houses, you just

10:49:33 mentioned they do not have to have an in-house, housing

10:49:38 manager.

10:49:39 Is that what you just said?

10:49:41 >> That's correct.

10:49:42 >>MIKE SUAREZ: So they operate at just individual rental

10:49:45 units essentially as they would duplex or something like

10:49:47 that?

10:49:49 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Except they don't necessarily -- there's

10:49:52 a difference between a dwelling unit and lodging unit the

10:49:58 three components make it a residence which is bath fa

10:50:01 circuits living area and kitchen that makes it that unit.

10:50:05 The ramming house lodging unit could have a kitchen, but it

10:50:08 doesn't have to.

10:50:09 They could have a congregate kitchen where they all cook

10:50:13 together.

10:50:13 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Once you have a kitchen it doesn't move onto

10:50:19 a different category?

10:50:20 Cot still be a rooming house with a kitchen or without?

10:50:24 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It says with or without those facilities.

10:50:25 So in theory if they did all have them, yes, could you move

10:50:29 into a multifamily scenario.

10:50:31 Just so you know, multifamily is allowed in the districts

10:50:34 where rooming houses are special uses.

10:50:36 >>HARRY COHEN: Councilman Reddick?

10:50:42 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10:50:45 I would like to raise a question.

10:50:47 I wanted to hear from Ms. Hamlin the president of Ybor --

10:50:59 because they have, I believe, I met with the neighborhood

10:51:03 association.

10:51:05 They have raised those concerns about issues.

10:51:09 So you have what has been presented to us.

10:51:14 What is your feedback or comment?

10:51:17 >> I'm president of the VM Ybor neighborhood association.

10:51:21 The rooming houses and the clustering of rooming houses

10:51:24 particularly along Nebraska Avenue, because it's zoned a CG,

10:51:28 has been identified year after year after year in our

10:51:30 community as being one of the top five biggest issues, and

10:51:35 unfortunately the ambiguous, the current code is pretty

10:51:38 ambiguous, has some conflicting definitions, and basically

10:51:42 renders as unenforceable.

10:51:46 So when couple that with the high number of historic homes

10:51:50 and a struggling commercial corridor, there's a really,

10:51:54 really large problem for just about everyone.

10:51:57 Neighbors, stakeholders, business owners and the residents

10:52:00 themselves.

10:52:01 And a lot of times up into dozens an dozens of rooms.

10:52:05 And what I would consider a small closet.

10:52:08 A 3200 square foot structure on Nebraska houses more than 35

10:52:12 folks.

10:52:13 That's just one of four on that block.

10:52:16 That houses 35 to 40 people at a time.

10:52:22 These houses, there are very questionable safety provisions.

10:52:28 No sprinkler systems in most.

10:52:30 And obviously no limit to the maximum occupancy.

10:52:35 You say you are related, all of a sudden four unrelated

10:52:38 adults goes to nine, possibly ten in a single lodging unit,

10:52:42 completely unenforceable and it just can't be good.

10:52:47 So specifically we talked about this at length.

10:52:49 We voted, the board wrote you a letter.

10:52:53 We support the clarification on the definition by removing

10:52:57 the complex and ambiguous terms.

10:53:01 We are hoping that at clear reference to the standards

10:53:05 already found in chapter 19, the plumbing requirements, is

10:53:08 added, and that it's also clear and enforceable, and

10:53:13 building inspectors and code inspectors actually use that

10:53:18 and reference that.

10:53:20 Defining exactly what a logic unit is and limit the occupant

10:53:23 number to two per lodging unit.

10:53:26 But with minimum square footage of 150 square feet.

10:53:31 So I guess what we are hoping for is you take two people per

10:53:34 unit in that lodging unit is 150 square foot minimum.

10:53:38 And we are saying that because so often small closets end up

10:53:42 being a lodging unit, and you have got a single bunk bed,

10:53:46 and that's the size of the room and that's what it is.

10:53:48 And that's not good for anybody especially not good for the

10:53:52 folks that have to live there.

10:53:54 And support for a maximum number of units being reduced from

10:53:59 9 to 6 and we support the 500-foot separation between like

10:54:03 use.

10:54:04 There's already something similar in place for ALF and

10:54:07 congregate living facilities.

10:54:08 We strongly believe these changes are very, very necessary,

10:54:11 and that it will improve the quality of life and the health,

10:54:14 safety and welfare of the residents involved.

10:54:17 >>FRANK REDDICK: Thank you.

10:54:21 Mr. Chair, let me just say, my recommendation is going to be

10:54:26 that we concur with Ms. Hamlin's recommendation, and that is

10:54:34 the 500 square footage that you have from two -- what you

10:54:40 had up there.

10:54:44 >>CATHERINE COYLE: She's actually concurring with the

10:54:45 recommendation that I have.

10:54:46 What they added was the minimum square footage of 150 square

10:54:50 feet per lodging unit.

10:54:52 I recommended that we give a minimum square footage, and I

10:54:54 added that we could say 150 square feet, and what I added

10:54:59 was, or the minimum set by the Florida building code,

10:55:01 whichever is more.

10:55:03 That way, the lodging unit is the minimum size at least by

10:55:06 the building code. In case the building code requirement is

10:55:09 220 feet and it changes over time, I want to make sure to

10:55:12 capture the larger size.

10:55:14 I don't want to run afoul of the building code.

10:55:17 I want to add that provision to it.

10:55:19 So it's 19-235, reducing nine to six lodging units per

10:55:23 rooming house, two occupants per lodging unit, minimum

10:55:28 square footage per lodging unit of 150 square feet or the

10:55:31 minimum set by the Florida building code, whichever is more,

10:55:34 and adding in the 500-foot separation between the uses, like

10:55:40 uses.

10:55:41 >>HARRY COHEN: I have Councilwoman Mulhern and Councilwoman

10:55:45 Montelione.

10:55:45 We are going to have public comment once the council members

10:55:48 have had a chance to make comments and ask an initial round

10:55:52 of questions.

10:55:52 >>MARY MULHERN: I have some questions for you, and I think

10:55:57 this will help because maybe we can clear some things up

10:56:00 before the public weighs in.

10:56:04 The classification, are we changing the name from rooming

10:56:12 house?

10:56:13 >> It's still rooming house.

10:56:14 >> So can you describe -- you already talked a little bit to

10:56:20 Mr. Suarez about the bed and breakfast.

10:56:22 But can you talk about Hostels and bed and breakfasts?

10:56:31 >> Traditionally by looking at the definitions it's really

10:56:34 the number of lodging units that are in them.

10:56:37 A hostel fits into the rooming house category.

10:56:42 The limitation of rooming house as I said is between three

10:56:45 and nine lodging units.

10:56:46 And a lodging unit isn't necessarily traditional residential

10:56:49 unit.

10:56:50 It doesn't always have the kitchen.

10:56:52 It's not required to have it.

10:56:55 What happens immediately after the rooming house and the way

10:56:57 the definitions are tiered is the hotel or motel is ten or

10:57:01 more lodging units.

10:57:03 And then the definition for hotel or motel, the reason why I

10:57:07 want to clean it up is because when you read the rooming

10:57:10 house definition that I provided, it says a building or

10:57:13 group of buildings containing in combination three to nine

10:57:16 lodging units intended primarily for rental or lease for

10:57:19 periods of longer than a week, with or without board.

10:57:23 Okay.

10:57:25 I think traditionally with single rooming house it's

10:57:29 temporary.

10:57:29 Maybe even remotely transient.

10:57:32 Doesn't necessarily say, but as a residential category, now

10:57:36 that people are coming and going potentially, not

10:57:39 necessarily long-term solutions.

10:57:42 Under hotel or motel, they tell you pretty much the same

10:57:45 thing, if the building or group of buildings containing ten

10:57:48 or more lodging units, the next one in size, and ten is

10:57:51 primarily for rental or lease to transients, so they make it

10:57:55 clear that hotel and motel are actually transient by the day

10:57:58 or week, as distinguished from a rooming house which is

10:58:02 primarily residential.

10:58:03 So the rooming house definition doesn't actually include

10:58:07 what the true intent of it is.

10:58:09 It's actually further defined in the hotel-motel definition

10:58:12 which is a little wonky for me.

10:58:14 That's one of the things I want to change.

10:58:16 But that's pretty much how they are tiered.

10:58:18 We have a basic definition for lodging unit and how those

10:58:21 are combined to create the lodging unit.

10:58:23 And then we have each type of use that contains lodging

10:58:26 units and they tier up.

10:58:28 Rooming house three to nine, bed and breakfast up to 12 with

10:58:32 a resident manager, hotel or motel is ten or more, but with

10:58:35 no requirement that there's a resident manager.

10:58:38 >>MARY MULHERN: I guess my question then, where does the

10:58:42 hostel?

10:58:43 Because to me, you can tell me if I am wrong about this.

10:58:46 But it seems like a hostel fits more in with a bed and

10:58:50 breakfast than a rooming house.

10:58:54 It usually travelers.

10:58:59 >>CATHERINE COYLE: And it could.

10:58:59 I don't know that we have that particular term in our code.

10:59:02 I'm pretty sure we don't.

10:59:04 I have to look it up just to be sure.

10:59:05 But what we do is, if you come in and you are describing

10:59:09 that use you are calling a hostel but it actually reads as

10:59:12 the definition for one of these other things, that's really

10:59:15 what it is.

10:59:15 So if you are actually doing a transient situation, you

10:59:18 don't want more than 12 lodging units, we are going to have

10:59:21 a manager, great, call yourself a bed and breakfast.

10:59:27 >>HARRY COHEN: Councilwoman Montelione.

10:59:30 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Thank you.

10:59:33 These are very complex issues, and I don't think any of us

10:59:37 had the chance to really read through all of the

10:59:39 documentation that was provided to us.

10:59:44 When did this documentation come in?

10:59:47 It was late last night, wasn't it?

10:59:52 >>CATHERINE COYLE: E-mailed it last week.

10:59:53 >>LISA MONTELIONE: I thought we got something at six.

10:59:59 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It says Montelione opened today, but it

11:00:01 was sent last week.

11:00:03 >>LISA MONTELIONE: My apologies.

11:00:07 The language in the Hillsborough County code where it

11:00:15 relates to -- for everybody who has got this chart, it's the

11:00:22 bottom of that paragraph.

11:00:24 It says, said boarding house shall not deviate by more than

11:00:28 30% from the median scale of neighboring buildings as

11:00:32 determined by the volume ratio and total building volume.

11:00:36 And the reason I bring that up or highlight that is because

11:00:41 in the language you suggested, it refers to square footage.

11:00:46 And --

11:00:52 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Per unit.

11:00:52 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Yes.

11:00:54 And I hesitate to put a fixed number on something, because

11:01:03 how a building or how a facility relates to what is around

11:01:08 it sometimes has to be taken into consideration.

11:01:12 So if you go with just a fixed number, you might end up with

11:01:17 something that isn't befitting the neighborhood around it.

11:01:21 So personally, I would prefer something that is more

11:01:26 relatable on scale than a fixed number.

11:01:30 Does that make sense?

11:01:32 And I think that's what in the county code, I think that's

11:01:35 what they were trying to achieve.

11:01:38 >>CATHERINE COYLE: What happens in the city primarily is

11:01:40 they are just converting existing buildings that already

11:01:42 have a scale relationship.

11:01:46 >>LISA MONTELIONE: That might not always be the case.

11:01:49 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It's not often that they are built new,

11:01:52 in the city anyway.

11:01:53 A lot of these buildings are just being converted, orphan

11:01:57 without permits.

11:01:57 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Why I bring that up is because as we are

11:02:01 working on addressing affordable housing, and homeless

11:02:06 population, that there may be facilities used for that

11:02:13 purpose.

11:02:15 And some of them are being built new.

11:02:24 So I want to try and be mindful of that.

11:02:27 I think --

11:02:30 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Taking that into account, I think where

11:02:31 you want to go as opposed to the cap on a lodging unit size,

11:02:38 then you would be just instituting a square footage per

11:02:43 person.

11:02:43 That way, like in Orlando, in particular, they have every

11:02:50 rooming house shall contain at least 150 square feet of

11:02:53 floor space for the first occupant and at least 100

11:02:56 additional square feet for the second occupant.

11:02:59 Now that's a little high when you look at Jacksonville.

11:03:01 I believe Jacksonville was 110 for the group, 50 for each

11:03:07 person after that.

11:03:10 What we had here in the options for you was you could cap

11:03:16 the number of people per lodging unit or go square footage

11:03:19 per person in the lodging unit.

11:03:21 And the final thing is if you actually wanted to cap the

11:03:24 size of the lodging unit itself, which in the end would tell

11:03:26 you how many people you could have, but no more than two, it

11:03:30 was just an extra restriction on a maximization of the size.

11:03:34 You could, though, I mean, I hear what you are saying, if

11:03:38 you have ten by ten rooms, and you want to put a person in

11:03:43 there, and your facility was six of those rooms with a

11:03:47 congregate type kitchen, then it would be one person per

11:03:51 room.

11:03:53 If we just kept the two people per lodging unit, though, you

11:03:56 have two people per room on a ten by ten.

11:03:59 So that would mean you probably want to use the square

11:04:03 footage per person.

11:04:05 Those are the kinds of concepts you have to weigh if you are

11:04:08 going to trade off and not put a cap on the unit size, then

11:04:12 you probably should institute a square footage minimum per

11:04:15 person.

11:04:16 And then you can say no more than two.

11:04:17 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Right.

11:04:21 Okay.

11:04:22 That's all I have for now.

11:04:27 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Cohen.

11:04:27 >>HARRY COHEN: Just to -- I am interested to hear what the

11:04:33 public has to say about this item.

11:04:36 But I just want to get back to the bed and breakfast

11:04:39 discussion for a minute.

11:04:41 There was that that came up, but there's something else

11:04:45 that's come up in front of us recently, and I wonder how

11:04:47 that relates to this whole discussion.

11:04:50 And that was we have recently some residents that came in

11:04:53 from West Tampa that were complaining specifically in their

11:05:02 community being rented out for individual short-term parties

11:05:05 and occasions where multiple people would gather, and

11:05:09 actually, I met with some residents on Davis Island two

11:05:13 weeks ago who claim that in the house next door to them, the

11:05:17 owners are renting out the house for large occasions and

11:05:25 hundreds of people descend on it and then they come back

11:05:29 again.

11:05:29 How does that relate, that type of a use, relate to what we

11:05:32 are talking about today?

11:05:33 Where would that sort of thing be governed?

11:05:36 >> Well, it's not directly related.

11:05:38 Those actually are single-family residences.

11:05:40 And by definition of that dwelling unit, you have those

11:05:43 three components that created that dwelling unit.

11:05:46 But it is supposed to be for a week or longer.

11:05:48 So if they are renting them for three days, let's say, or

11:05:52 three-day minimum, by definition, they should not be doing

11:05:56 that.

11:05:57 It should at least be a week.

11:05:58 >> How is that enforced?

11:06:04 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Just like everything else.

11:06:07 It is something that has to be observed, traditionally.

11:06:10 >>HARRY COHEN: One would assume that a person doing that

11:06:14 would also have to pay business taxes and have a license?

11:06:18 I mean, they are operating a business, if they are renting

11:06:20 out.

11:06:22 >>CATHERINE COYLE: If they are renting their home, they

11:06:24 should have a rental certificate.

11:06:25 >>HARRY COHEN: That's not specifically dealt with in the

11:06:28 part of the code that --

11:06:31 >>CATHERINE COYLE: This is a different use.

11:06:31 >>HARRY COHEN: A different use.

11:06:33 Just from my point of view I'm anxious to hear what the

11:06:36 public has to say but I would definitely support a

11:06:38 tightening up of these restrictions.

11:06:40 I would also like to look at the way we govern some of those

11:06:43 other uses when we have the discussion about that.

11:06:45 We can do that at the same time.

11:06:49 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Are we finished with council members?

11:06:51 Thanks.

11:06:51 >> Fran Costantino, president of the east Ybor Civic

11:06:59 Association.

11:07:01 I'm here to support Tampa Heights VM Ybor.

11:07:05 As for Ybor we have been fighting this since 1999, I myself.

11:07:11 I think most of our problem is with enforcement, which is

11:07:18 money, a problem with all of this.

11:07:19 When you look at the charts, at the construction services, a

11:07:23 workshop, if this was enforced, it would probably cut off

11:07:27 half of our problem.

11:07:28 And I don't agree with Mrs. Montelione that the new ones

11:07:32 being built.

11:07:32 Because if you are going to build new building houses then

11:07:35 you have to conform with code and construction services so

11:07:37 that's like out of it.

11:07:38 What concerns me is that it is the same violators and the

11:07:42 same owners who are disrespecting, who know the game, and

11:07:48 really a problem in our historic district.

11:07:51 I beg you to give code enforcement more power and more

11:07:54 money.

11:07:55 They are the most unappreciated, hard working department,

11:08:00 not to knock any others, in the city, but they have no

11:08:03 power.

11:08:04 We can help them, because we know the addresses, we know

11:08:07 where these people are at, but code enforcement has no

11:08:10 power.

11:08:11 When we got these closed down in my neighborhood, we had 60

11:08:15 people in a two-story house, and you would open the front

11:08:18 door, and the kitchen and the bathroom were in the back on

11:08:21 the ground floor, and you would walk in, and there would be

11:08:24 a padlock, a padlock, a padlock, a padlock.

11:08:27 And obviously we are not here to create more of a homeless

11:08:31 problem.

11:08:31 The thing is to make these owners responsible.

11:08:34 And in my area, there's one owner that probably owns the

11:08:38 majority, all but probably two, he knows the game, he knows

11:08:44 how to play the system, and it's a cash cow to him.

11:08:47 I mean, I feel like having somebody call IRS because I know

11:08:51 all that money he's taking in he's not reporting on his tax

11:08:54 return.

11:08:55 They are using these people to get 300 to $400 cash a month

11:08:59 with eight to ten, and one building, and they are just using

11:09:04 it as a cash cow, and they don't put the money back into it.

11:09:08 We know none of the regulations -- I mean, the fire

11:09:11 department went in there.

11:09:12 Were no sprinklers.

11:09:13 There were no smoke alarms.

11:09:16 There wasn't anything.

11:09:17 And again please, I do not want to add to the homeless.

11:09:20 But somebody has to give code enforcement the power, the

11:09:23 money and the resources to go after these repeated

11:09:26 offenders.

11:09:27 And I appreciate your help in doing that.

11:09:29 Thank you.

11:09:30 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

11:09:30 Next, please.

11:09:31 >> Kelly Bailey, vice-president of the VM Ybor neighborhood

11:09:36 association but I'm here on my own.

11:09:38 Way want to say about Cathy Coyle giving the definition of

11:09:42 bed and breakfast, I believe those bed and breakfasts are

11:09:47 intended to be a week or less and that's really important

11:09:49 because someone is trying to skirt the rooming houses and

11:09:54 call something a bed and breakfast that really is a rooming

11:09:57 house.

11:09:57 I am also going to ask that Cate consider putting a

11:10:02 stipulation that it's a bed and breakfast, implying

11:10:06 breakfast is being served, because having a resident manager

11:10:09 on-site is also provided as part of that definition.

11:10:14 As a resident in an area that has seen the exploitation of

11:10:17 both our neighborhoods and the people that reside in the

11:10:20 current rooming houses in VM Ybor, I support the recommended

11:10:23 changes to the ordinance governing room houses.

11:10:26 I agree that no more than two people should occupy one

11:10:29 lodging unit, and that each lodging unit should measure at

11:10:32 least 150 square feet.

11:10:34 Anything less than that is not considering safety and

11:10:37 well-being of the residents that live there.

11:10:39 I also support the reduction of allowable lodging units per

11:10:42 rooming house from nine to six to help maintain the

11:10:45 standards that are more -- or help maintain standards that

11:10:48 are more conducive to a safe living environment.

11:10:51 There is no way that 30 to 40 people in 2 to 3,000 square

11:10:57 feet of living space is safe from a fire standpoint or from

11:11:00 a mental health standpoint especially as we have seen in VM

11:11:04 Ybor.

11:11:04 Many of these rooming houses are landing pads for sexual

11:11:07 offenders and predators recently released from jail or

11:11:10 prison.

11:11:11 God forbid there was ever a fire in any of these buildings.

11:11:14 I understand that people are in great need of affordable

11:11:17 housing but I don't believe that stuffing tons of tent ants

11:11:20 into properties disregarding people's desire for a clean and

11:11:23 safe environment is the way to really help these people.

11:11:26 If managed and maintained properly rooming houses could

11:11:28 potentially add value to a neighborhood, but as we have seen

11:11:31 in VM Ybor, the only motivation of the owners of these

11:11:34 properties is pure profit.

11:11:36 The current codes regarding rooming houses allow for very

11:11:40 real negative effect on the neighborhood affecting the

11:11:43 quality of life for the surrounding residents.

11:11:46 The concerns of the stakeholders as well as the obligations

11:11:49 of code enforcement and the fire marshal have to ensure that

11:11:53 safety of the people living in these accommodations need to

11:11:57 be held at a higher important level than the need of the

11:12:00 slum lords to make money to look at these rooming houses

11:12:04 solely as cash cows with no regard for the people that live

11:12:07 there.

11:12:08 Please give the zoning department and code enforcement more

11:12:11 tools to help ensure that everyone in the city has a safe

11:12:13 and secure place to live by allowing the recommended changes

11:12:17 to the code.

11:12:18 Thank you.

11:12:19 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

11:12:20 Next, please.

11:12:21 >> My name is Mike Erodock, bed and breakfast corporation.

11:12:30 I am on the other side of what you hear.

11:12:32 I just want to give you a way to look at this problem.

11:12:39 First, I would like the city and the City Council to include

11:12:43 the owner of those buildings in this discussion, because you

11:12:47 are not hearing our feedback, and to make better decisions.

11:12:52 I think this is not right.

11:12:57 I think first to call it rooming houses, I think for the

11:13:01 22nd set century we should call them houses.

11:13:06 We don't need more regulation.

11:13:07 We need, you know, set better standard, require the owners

11:13:12 to set better standards.

11:13:14 But we don't need more regs regulation.

11:13:16 Because Japan use very small square footage for somebody to

11:13:26 stay.

11:13:26 What you are proposing is hard for the business owner to

11:13:31 increase, you know, the percentage, decrease crime and also

11:13:37 reduce the money coming to the market, because the rooming

11:13:39 houses that we have up to move to the 22nd century by making

11:13:45 them attract tourists and make the transition better for

11:13:50 everybody would be a benefit to all of us.

11:13:53 And I agree with something else that all the area north of

11:13:58 7th Avenue or Tampa Heights and Ybor City, like

11:14:03 buildings, clean them, paint them outside, but we don't need

11:14:07 more rules.

11:14:08 We already have more rules and our code is more rigid than

11:14:12 ever, and in fact recommended to add another code to our

11:14:20 existing code, by adding more code and make it more rigid --

11:14:25 by the way, I am engineer and I know the code.

11:14:28 If you keep adding more code you are going to shut out other

11:14:31 businesses which is not good for our community.

11:14:35 And I don't want to take more time.

11:14:37 I already wrote a letter to you.

11:14:39 And I e-mail it to you and I can give you a copy of it.

11:14:42 Thank you very much.

11:14:44 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Cohen.

11:14:44 >>HARRY COHEN: Do you own and operate rooming houses in the

11:14:48 City of Tampa?

11:14:54 >> I own three of them.

11:14:55 >>HARRY COHEN: Would you be inclined to let any of us come

11:14:58 and take a tour?

11:15:00 >> I would like it, and I would like to hear your good and

11:15:03 bad.

11:15:04 By the way, I have been in Tampa 23 years.

11:15:06 I have been in this country 30 years.

11:15:10 I got my BS in mechanical engineering, my master in business

11:15:11 administration, and building constructor, so I know what I

11:15:18 am saying.

11:15:19 Since the market went down, the real estate market is

11:15:22 changing badly whether we like it or not.

11:15:26 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you.

11:15:26 I just wanted to know that.

11:15:28 >> Okay.

11:15:29 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Suarez?

11:15:30 >>MIKE SUAREZ: How do you advertise for your hostels?

11:15:34 >> Word of mouth.

11:15:35 >>MIKE SUAREZ: How does that work in terms of people

11:15:41 coming?

11:15:43 How does that work in terms of people staying at your

11:15:45 rooming house?

11:15:47 >> If I understand how they come, I mean --

11:15:53 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Let me interrupt you for a second.

11:15:55 In terms what of I know of hostels and different places

11:15:58 around the world, there's youth hostels, Elder hostels,

11:16:02 usually they are advertised, they are specific, and they

11:16:04 have specific types of people that go and room there.

11:16:06 So do you advertise on the Internet?

11:16:08 Do you advertise in newspapers?

11:16:10 Do you advertise on campus newspapers?

11:16:13 Do you advertise in AARP?

11:16:17 Where do you advertise?

11:16:18 >> As far as advertising --

11:16:20 >> What's your Web site?

11:16:21 >> My Web site is American but it's not up yet

11:16:29 because I know I am ready to connect to European and Latin

11:16:34 American for the hostel international.

11:16:36 >> You have been in business 23 years, I think you said,

11:16:39 correct?

11:16:39 >> Yes.

11:16:39 >> The Internet has been around for at least 15.

11:16:42 It's been a long time coming for your Internet presentation.

11:16:45 >> Well, there's about ten engines.

11:16:51 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Let me interrupt you one more time.

11:16:54 I apologize.

11:16:55 But in terms of what you are doing, you consider yourself a

11:16:58 hostel.

11:16:59 >> I do.

11:17:00 >> And in terms of everything that I know about hostels, you

11:17:03 do not meet that criteria.

11:17:05 That's my own opinion.

11:17:07 There is no weight other than my own opinion.

11:17:09 But that's based on what you are telling me, it does not fit

11:17:12 what I consider a hostel.

11:17:14 Thank you very much.

11:17:15 I appreciate it.

11:17:15 >> You're welcome.

11:17:17 >>FRANK REDDICK: You say you own three?

11:17:19 >> Three, correct.

11:17:20 >>FRANK REDDICK: Are those located --

11:17:25 >> I have one on Nebraska.

11:17:26 >> One on Nebraska.

11:17:29 Now, are you willing to let us come and tour your facility?

11:17:32 >> Sure.

11:17:33 Anytime you are welcome to come.

11:17:35 >> Could I be there 12:30 today?

11:17:39 >> Of course.

11:17:39 >> Give me the address and I will be there 12:30 today.

11:17:42 >> It's 2314 north Nebraska Avenue.

11:17:46 >>FRANK REDDICK: 2314.

11:17:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: 2314 north Nebraska just north of

11:17:53 26th Avenue.

11:17:54 >> It's just off of Columbus.

11:18:00 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Just south of 24th.

11:18:01 >> Yes.

11:18:02 >>FRANK REDDICK: My other question.

11:18:04 If you own one on Nebraska, what is your capacity for people

11:18:08 in this facility today?

11:18:10 How many people do you have in the facility today?

11:18:12 >> The people I have in the facility?

11:18:15 >>FRANK REDDICK: Today.

11:18:16 >> Most of them in downtown area, like you have one --

11:18:22 >> The total number of people you have in there.

11:18:25 >> I have eight.

11:18:26 That's it, eight.

11:18:27 >>FRANK REDDICK: Okay.

11:18:29 All right.

11:18:30 I would appreciate that.

11:18:31 Because the building structure that I have seen, if you own

11:18:46 one on Nebraska Avenue, then I have --

11:18:50 >> I mean, this is my point.

11:18:52 If you have like one operator that's bad, not all of them

11:18:57 are bad.

11:18:59 You don't make stricter code because one is bad.

11:19:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: With the three, if you have three that

11:19:07 are bald and one that's good, you don't buy tires.

11:19:14 I understand.

11:19:16 And I know we will be finished by 12:30. (Laughter)

11:19:26 I'm just needling you.

11:19:28 >>> Pete Johnson, 510 Harrison street.

11:19:31 I totally support regulating of these boarding houses.

11:19:36 I have been working on two for over a year now to bring them

11:19:41 into compliance.

11:19:43 It's gotten ridiculous.

11:19:45 There are 2810 and 2830, I believe are the two addresses.

11:19:51 All this time, they have been allowed to do business and

11:19:55 still be out of compliance.

11:19:57 And allowing up to 30 to 38 people in a 2,000 square foot

11:20:02 structure without being stopped.

11:20:07 I want to say one thing about code enforcement.

11:20:09 I think code enforcement is the best department in the

11:20:12 entire city.

11:20:14 Yes, it needs to be funded.

11:20:18 They need more people.

11:20:19 They need more funding.

11:20:20 But they do have the tools right there.

11:20:23 I just gave you a list of codes that could be attached to

11:20:27 any one of these boarding houses.

11:20:30 We also have a problem with boarding houses that are

11:20:36 supplying places for drug rehab, supposedly, alcohol rehab,

11:20:42 that is something that is coming up in the news now.

11:20:47 They have regulations that they can go in and enforce.

11:20:53 Overcrowding is a regulation that can be -- the property can

11:20:56 be closed.

11:20:59 We have a lot of rules and regulations.

11:21:01 I agree in tightening up, but we always get right back to

11:21:05 how to enforce.

11:21:07 And that, I'm so glad that this council is so strong on

11:21:13 improving the enforcement department.

11:21:15 I know how frustrating it is.

11:21:18 But we have the right, we have the legality, we have the law

11:21:21 on our side.

11:21:26 So it's all about the department and the process of how we

11:21:29 go about doing it.

11:21:31 Thank you.

11:21:33 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

11:21:33 Next, please.

11:21:34 >> I'm Jennifer Willman, president of the Palmetto Beach

11:21:40 community association.

11:21:41 I live at 2426 Stewart street.

11:21:43 And I'm here to support the staff's recommended changes, in

11:21:51 addition to limit being the occupant number to two per

11:21:57 lodging unit and requiring 150 square foot per occupant

11:22:03 standards.

11:22:03 I think that's very important especially in our neighborhood

11:22:05 of Palmetto Beach where we have a lot of small single-family

11:22:09 homes that are being converted to multiple units, and that

11:22:16 size requirement would definitely help that situation.

11:22:20 So I think it's critical that that piece be included in

11:22:25 these changes.

11:22:29 And breakfast is always provided, so I don't know.

11:22:37 It seems more like a bed and breakfast.

11:22:41 So I hope if that is considered you will look into that in

11:22:43 more detail.

11:22:44 And in the neighborhood it would be great if you could also

11:22:51 tour with the residents that have offered to do that.

11:22:53 So I think we would be able to show you first hand what the

11:22:56 problems are that we are encountering.

11:23:00 Thank you.

11:23:01 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you so very much.

11:23:02 Next, please.

11:23:03 >> My name is Jon Dengler, the president of Ybor Heights

11:23:08 Neighborhood Association, 3908 east Lake Avenue.

11:23:12 I also work with the underground, spend most of my time with

11:23:15 the homeless community.

11:23:17 Work with the homeless.

11:23:19 And I have been -- this is just one of several things that

11:23:23 we have discussed here so we talk a lot about this, the

11:23:29 conditions that people are living in, and we talk about the

11:23:31 residents that are there now.

11:23:34 But it's the same way that we'll talk about like public

11:23:37 safety when we want to ban panhandling or we talk about we

11:23:40 care so much about our homeless that you T churches can't

11:23:43 share food with them in the park, because of health code

11:23:46 violations or whatever.

11:23:48 We act like we are concerned with the individuals.

11:23:52 I want to just put that out there for the sake of like not

11:23:55 being so dishonest about it and it is about calling it a

11:24:01 criminal class or concerned with sex offenders in the

11:24:04 neighborhood.

11:24:04 And I understand the concern of the residents that live near

11:24:07 these places, in our neighborhood.

11:24:09 Or in the neighborhood just south of us.

11:24:13 There are a lot of sex offenders, a lot of people in bad

11:24:16 situations, a lot of people with criminal records.

11:24:18 And I know a lot of these people.

11:24:20 A lot of people that I have been going to a rooming house in

11:24:22 the area serving a meal weekly for over three years now, got

11:24:28 really close friends with a lot of people that live in these

11:24:30 places.

11:24:31 And what I realize is the reason they are clustered in these

11:24:35 places is that as a lot of money goes into the first

11:24:41 Baptist, first Presbyterian, start there, but over time

11:24:44 those become old and money moves out, and a lot of the white

11:24:49 people that hold that money move out as well and it's a

11:24:51 process of suburbanization as it goes further and further

11:24:54 from the city.

11:24:54 What happens is the poor come in and they inhabit these old

11:24:58 buildings so you have old buildings being diverted to

11:25:02 rooming houses, poor congregations and they come in and they

11:25:05 take these things.

11:25:06 But in time people have night life in the city, jobs in the

11:25:09 city, and they want these bungalow houses in the city,

11:25:14 people coming back into these communities and buying these

11:25:16 homes, fixing them up, affecting the property values.

11:25:19 It's like for the good.

11:25:21 It's for development.

11:25:22 It's well intended and yet it affects property taxes for

11:25:26 people, poor families.

11:25:28 What happens, this is a place, sex offenders can't go

11:25:32 anywhere to find a place to live.

11:25:33 There's no way these people are welcome.

11:25:36 With the number of people in the streets and the lack of

11:25:37 number of beds in our city we have got to be careful not to

11:25:40 like sacrifice the beds that we have.

11:25:42 So I know people that live in rooms with six bunk beds and

11:25:45 are grateful for that.

11:25:46 It's terrible condition, and I don't know anything about the

11:25:49 property owners. I think they do probably profit

11:25:51 substantially off the backs of poor people and it should be

11:25:55 stopped.

11:25:55 And yet people are grateful for those places.

11:25:57 And we should be careful.

11:25:58 We need to be really careful.

11:26:01 It's so complex what's going on here.

11:26:04 So take your time.

11:26:05 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much, sir.

11:26:06 Next, please.

11:26:07 >> My name is Rochelle gross.

11:26:11 I am a business owner in Tampa Heights in Ybor City and I am

11:26:16 vice-president of the Tampa Heights civic association but

11:26:18 I'm here on my own behalf.

11:26:20 I support the recommended changes to the ordinance regarding

11:26:23 rooming houses.

11:26:27 The reason I want to reduce the number of rooms is because

11:26:30 it seems like the more people you get clustered together the

11:26:33 more problems you have and the more police calls go up.

11:26:45 I believe code enforcement has to have teeth.

11:26:47 It's like they are not able to enforce the laws that we have

11:26:50 on the books.

11:26:53 My properties are in an office village, and we have someone

11:26:58 whose property is zoned as office yet they decided to turn

11:27:01 it into a rooming house, as Fran said.

11:27:04 I believe it because they are a cash cow.

11:27:06 You have people who come and deal only on a cash basis.

11:27:09 So, you know, every week they get hundreds of dollars, which

11:27:13 is much easier than trying to make it work.

11:27:16 Every single other building in the neighborhood in the

11:27:20 village, we have all gone through tough times and done what

11:27:23 we could and held on, but this one person is really ruining

11:27:27 it for the whole office village.

11:27:30 The code enforcement and zoning, everybody says they can't

11:27:33 do anything.

11:27:34 And what's happened is the vandalism has gone up.

11:27:37 I have had two windows broken in my building that's adjacent

11:27:41 to the rooming house or bed oh and breakfast or hostel or

11:27:46 whatever it is.

11:27:47 The person across the street had windows shot out with B.B.

11:27:50 guns.

11:27:51 I have a place that backs up to this property and I have had

11:27:54 two trees knocked over.

11:27:56 So the vandalism in the neighborhood since this one building

11:27:59 has changed from office has gone up.

11:28:01 The police calls have gone up.

11:28:03 The U.S. Marshalls once surrounded the building with like

11:28:06 huge weapons, you know, assault rifles, and the owner of

11:28:11 that property told me, I know the guy he was after, weighs a

11:28:16 nice guy.

11:28:16 And I said U.S. Marshalls don't surround bailing for a nice

11:28:20 guy.

11:28:21 My neighbor called hysterical, there were huge fights on the

11:28:25 street on an ongoing basis and it just doesn't matter what

11:28:28 the owner calls it whether it be a bed and breakfast, a

11:28:31 hostel, a rooming house, if they don't maintain and keep up

11:28:38 their property.

11:28:39 I agree the homeless situation is impossible.

11:28:44 Perhaps they all need resident managers because poor people

11:28:46 can behave properly and be considered to their neighbors,

11:28:49 too.

11:28:50 Thank you.

11:28:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

11:28:55 Next, please.

11:28:55 >> Jerry Frankhauser, Hawthorne road, T.H.A.N. president.

11:29:05 We were happy that Cathy met with us to discuss all of

11:29:08 these, and we go along with the changes made for zoning and

11:29:15 I have another -- we also met with the code enforcement

11:29:18 people.

11:29:19 They came to one of our meetings and told us about their

11:29:22 problems.

11:29:23 We would like to see that you do something for them to help

11:29:27 them to do their job.

11:29:29 Also, I found out that there is no ordinance or anything

11:29:35 about people parking on their grass, in their yards.

11:29:39 I don't know, just pull up on the front yard and they can

11:29:44 park by the yard and there's no code enforcement, no rule,

11:29:48 no regulation.

11:29:49 I don't know, I haven't researched it that well.

11:29:51 But that might be something to look into.

11:29:53 Thank you.

11:29:55 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

11:29:55 Anyone else in the audience who oh would care to speak at

11:29:58 this time who has not spoken on this item?

11:30:00 Yes, ma'am.

11:30:00 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Just to follow up on a couple of the

11:30:07 comments.

11:30:07 What we are bringing forward today were options for you to

11:30:10 consider.

11:30:11 What I would recommend, because as I said from the beginning

11:30:16 even if you choose not to change the number of lodging

11:30:18 units, because that's really one of the only stipulations we

11:30:22 have in the code for rooming houses, so you keep it at nine.

11:30:26 One of the difficult things we have with the enforcement

11:30:29 side is that we do have a lot of language in there that says

11:30:33 "may" do this, "could" have this.

11:30:36 We have a number of lodging units but not necessarily

11:30:40 description of how large that should be, necessarily, an

11:30:45 easy way to calculate how many people should be in the

11:30:47 building because of the way the definitions written.

11:30:50 So what I am recommendation in general is just to have some

11:30:53 basic criteria that can be easily read and evaluated from

11:30:58 observation.

11:30:59 That's the hardest part that we have right now is the

11:31:01 enforcement side.

11:31:03 If I could, I did look up the term hostel, which we don't.

11:31:08 I was correct on that.

11:31:10 The definition of bed and breakfast I mentioned is no more

11:31:13 than 12 units.

11:31:14 It includes a resident's managers unit.

11:31:18 They do not have independent kitchen facilities or use for

11:31:21 transient.

11:31:22 It says is primarily for periods of less than one week.

11:31:25 Doesn't necessarily mean all.

11:31:27 And you could look at changing that definition of primarily

11:31:30 or that term.

11:31:31 It also says board "may" be provided, not required.

11:31:36 So those are the kinds of things where you see the "mays"

11:31:42 and the language that if you want it to be defined, let's go

11:31:45 ahead and call it that.

11:31:46 And if a hostel fits the definition of bed and breakfast

11:31:49 which I can go look up multiple definitions just to make

11:31:52 sure, we could easily include that a hostel fits in that

11:31:55 definition and just writes hostel shall be included in that

11:31:58 definition.

11:31:59 But those are things I can research just to clarify for our

11:32:02 code.

11:32:02 Because there are a lot of uses that we don't have defined

11:32:05 that we probably should if they come up more and more.

11:32:08 That's all I have to say.

11:32:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mr. Reddick has the floor, then Mrs.

11:32:14 Montelione.

11:32:15 >>FRANK REDDICK: Well, I was going to make a motion that we

11:32:20 accept staff report.

11:32:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Hold on to that.

11:32:25 Mrs. Montelione.

11:32:25 >>LISA MONTELIONE: That is one of the things I was going to

11:32:27 say because I had mentioned about not getting the

11:32:29 information apparently on the 21st, 12 pages were sent.

11:32:32 But then I think the clerk had updated yesterday up to 185

11:32:37 pages.

11:32:39 So that's 185 pages to review.

11:32:45 It's a lot of information.

11:32:46 So I was going to ask that --

11:32:51 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I didn't send 185 pages.

11:32:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: It came out that way.

11:32:57 >>CATHERINE COYLE: I only created six or eight.

11:32:58 >>LISA MONTELIONE: 12 pages from Cathy Coyle, then 185

11:33:05 pages of background material that the clerk had posted.

11:33:08 That was the volume of information that we are talking

11:33:10 about.

11:33:11 So I was also going to ask for a little bit more time to

11:33:14 review and to meet with other folks.

11:33:17 Mr. Reddick is going to meet.

11:33:19 So --

11:33:23 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: What do you want?

11:33:26 >>FRANK REDDICK: Ms. Coyle --

11:33:32 >>CATHERINE COYLE: It depends on whether you want to come

11:33:34 back in a staff report or workshop setting.

11:33:39 >>FRANK REDDICK: I would prefer a staff report.

11:33:43 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Then give you time to go out and look at

11:33:46 these places.

11:33:47 >>FRANK REDDICK: I make a motion that we accept the staff

11:33:50 recommendation and report back to council December 20 under

11:33:54 staff report at 10 a.m.

11:33:56 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Reddick on this

11:33:57 item.

11:33:58 Second by Mr. Cohen for December 20th, the year 2012, at

11:34:01 10 a.m., staff reports.

11:34:03 All in favor of that motion please indicate by saying aye.

11:34:05 Opposed nay.

11:34:06 The ayes have it unanimous.

11:34:08 Thank you all for attending.

11:34:09 I really appreciate all your comments.

11:34:11 Item number 5.

11:34:13 Julia men Dell.

11:34:14 >> There's a second part to that.

11:34:19 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: There's one thing I want.

11:34:20 Is that the chicken or the egg?

11:34:22 Mrs. Mandell wants to make an announcement here and I don't

11:34:25 want somebody in the audience to stay for this.

11:34:27 >>JULIA MANDELL: Legal department.

11:34:29 Given the lateness of the hour and the time that we have, I

11:34:33 am going to suggest that we go ahead and continue the

11:34:35 discussion on the Internet cafes until your January

11:34:39 workshop.

11:34:41 That will give you an opportunity to send you out some

11:34:43 bullet points ahead of tame so we can have a full you are

11:34:46 discussion.

11:34:47 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Give me the date of the January workshop.

11:34:49 >>HARRY COHEN: 31st.

11:34:54 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: 1-31, 10:30 in the morning.

11:34:57 Anyone in the audience care to speak on this item only on

11:35:00 the continuation?

11:35:03 The 31st of January, 2013 at 10:30 in the morning.

11:35:08 I need a motion from council.

11:35:10 >>HARRY COHEN: So moved.

11:35:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Moved by Mr. Cohen, seconded by Mr.

11:35:13 Reddick.

11:35:14 All in favor of that motion?

11:35:15 The ayes have it unanimously.

11:35:17 Back on 4.

11:35:18 For the second part.

11:35:19 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Planning and development.

11:35:24 The second item was devoted to chickens, and the documents

11:35:29 that I sent through which was five pages, just to be clear.

11:35:35 I did send a matrix that looked at Tampa, St. Pete and

11:35:39 Orlando, the larger city jurisdictions.

11:35:44 I also sent a document that was entitled animals and

11:35:47 chickens was the motion that council made with some initial

11:35:52 concepts, and I included the background information from

11:35:55 Orlando.

11:35:57 This is really for reference just to give you kind of an

11:35:59 idea of how they regulate animals.

11:36:02 And chickens fall under animals traditionally, even in our

11:36:06 code.

11:36:06 I think what I want to make clear up front when you look at

11:36:09 the regulations we have, if look at them on the space it's

11:36:11 questionable whether or not chickens are really allowed.

11:36:14 And that's been debuted over the years.

11:36:17 When you look at chapter 19 which is property maintenance

11:36:19 and enforcement chapter, it's pretty clear that under the

11:36:23 animal definition, they are considered not domesticated

11:36:27 animals, they are considered farm animals.

11:36:29 However, there is a ratio of 5,000 square feet or portion

11:36:35 thereof.

11:36:35 There's also a ratio for horses and goats and cows and so

11:36:39 on.

11:36:40 So in theory you can have these animals.

11:36:43 The very first provision is that you have to have 200-foot

11:36:46 separation.

11:36:49 There is very little place within the city you are going to

11:36:51 have a 200-foot separation from where you keep that animal,

11:36:54 considering the setbacks, the rear setback is 12 to 20.

11:36:58 So, yes, they are allowed.

11:37:03 Cap them?

11:37:04 Probably not.

11:37:04 So really what council is ultimately debating is what to do

11:37:08 with that 200 feet.

11:37:09 And if you choose, the motion included looking at something

11:37:13 less than 100.

11:37:14 So I have given you some options based on our current

11:37:17 regulations.

11:37:18 And I have got a couple on the bullet points to consider,

11:37:21 looking at the ratios, whether or not roosters versus

11:37:25 chickens, whether or not they should be cooped or just

11:37:28 enclosed in an area.

11:37:30 And ultimately looking at the definition of a kennel.

11:37:34 And I bring that up, and I did include some strikes and

11:37:39 underlined language because looking at the definitions in

11:37:42 chapter 19 we were already under the process of moving those

11:37:46 definitions of animals into the Land Development Code,

11:37:49 because also moving ratios to Land Development Code.

11:37:57 But currently in the zoning code, it is different than how

11:38:00 kennels are regulated in chapter 19.

11:38:02 So when we merge those, we need to clarify what those are.

11:38:06 Right now, as a single-family home, should not be considered

11:38:10 a kennel.

11:38:11 You can't have more than four animals.

11:38:14 Over four months of age.

11:38:17 The biggest question, if you move down allowing chickens,

11:38:22 should those chickens be counted as part of those animals?

11:38:26 When I talked to the people that come to the workshop,

11:38:30 different entities that have come in, the general consensus

11:38:33 is they probably should not be considered as part of the

11:38:35 four, but I also get the question back, oh, my gosh, I have

11:38:38 three cats and two dogs, I am a kennel.

11:38:42 So a lot of people have a lot of different animals and they

11:38:46 could potentially be in violation of the definition that we

11:38:48 have.

11:38:48 That aside, what I did propose, looking through the motion

11:38:52 that you made, and how you wanted to attend your community

11:39:00 garden ordinance and how those are allowed is looking at

11:39:02 allowing chickens, although they are already allowed, but

11:39:05 allowing them throughout the district.

11:39:08 Specifically not in the RS 150, 100 and 75.

11:39:12 If you are trying to keep it aligned with the community

11:39:16 gardens ordinance.

11:39:17 Also including the Seminole Heights and YC district, Ybor

11:39:21 district as allowed permitted uses.

11:39:25 That we would specifically state that they are not permitted

11:39:29 as accessory to multifamily, that they are only to

11:39:33 single-family.

11:39:33 You can imagine the scenario where you have an apartment

11:39:35 complex with 100 units.

11:39:37 Everybody would be allowed to have chickens.

11:39:39 The next thing you have a chicken farm on the property.

11:39:42 Worst case scenario.

11:39:44 The question is whether or not to keep the current ratio of

11:39:47 five per 5,000 square feet or to reduce to just a standard

11:39:50 three Hens, which over the different regulations that I have

11:39:55 reviewed there's different numbers out there.

11:39:58 It would be easier to keep the ratio that we have since it's

11:40:01 already currently allowed.

11:40:02 Require Hens to be cooped.

11:40:06 And actually provide on the property, and do they have to be

11:40:12 in the coop 24 hours a day?

11:40:14 Can I let them run around the yard and put them back in the

11:40:16 coop?

11:40:17 I thought that was a valid question.

11:40:19 It could be that they are required to be cooped or that you

11:40:22 are required to have a coop on-site.

11:40:25 We can play with the wording on that depending on which way

11:40:27 council wants to go.

11:40:28 But finally, the distance separation is really the trigger

11:40:32 right now that stops you from having chickens in the city.

11:40:35 So if we are looking at something less than 100 feet, I put

11:40:38 that as a bullet because that's what council motioned for.

11:40:41 What I did in the second bullet was specifying the coop

11:40:45 should be in the backyard, shouldn't be in the front yard, p

11:40:48 side yard, where yards are traditionally smaller or the

11:40:51 front of your house along the street, that if you are going

11:40:54 to have them, they should be in the back.

11:40:56 And then the next two options keeping with the standards

11:40:58 that we have, you could treat them as an accessory structure

11:41:02 in a coop.

11:41:03 The coop would be an accessory structure.

11:41:05 Those setbacks are three feet from the side and rear.

11:41:08 Predominantly throughout the city.

11:41:10 Or they could meet principle setbacks which are

11:41:13 traditionally seven feet and 20 feet for the typical RS-50

11:41:18 lots.

11:41:18 Now you would be limiting potentially the number of people

11:41:21 that could have chickens.

11:41:22 There are a fair amount of houses that meet those setbacks.

11:41:25 So if you had to have the coops within the setbacks there

11:41:28 would be no place to put it.

11:41:30 Those are the two options we have in our basic setback

11:41:32 requirements.

11:41:35 It's up to you on how little you want to require for the

11:41:38 setbacks.

11:41:41 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Mrs. Mulhern.

11:41:41 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

11:41:43 It sound like you have got good recommendations for how we

11:41:47 can do this and make the existing chickens conforming.

11:41:54 But I want to ask one thing because you brought that up

11:41:57 about the larger lots.

11:42:02 You can have the RS-50.

11:42:04 You can have chickens but not an RS-75 or 100?

11:42:09 Did you say that?

11:42:10 >> Well, in keeping with the motion where you said the

11:42:12 amendment should fall in the same procedure for review and

11:42:15 approval as the community gardens.

11:42:19 >>MARY MULHERN: I had a problem with that and I'm glad you

11:42:21 brought it up because I would like to go back to our

11:42:23 community garden ordinance and change it because it doesn't

11:42:25 make sense to me.

11:42:26 And I don't know how that happened.

11:42:27 I remember I wanted there not to be a restriction.

11:42:31 It makes more sense that if you have a larger backyard, you

11:42:35 have more room for a garden, or you have a larger lot.

11:42:38 There's more room for a garden.

11:42:40 There's more room for chickens.

11:42:50 >>CATHERINE COYLE: You had a fair amount.

11:42:56 >>MARY MULHERN: I remember it, and it was one person.

11:42:59 And I know there are a lot of chickens in some of these

11:43:01 neighborhoods that are bigger lots.

11:43:04 It has nothing to do with how much money you have, how big

11:43:07 your house is or your yard.

11:43:09 It just some people want to have chickens.

11:43:12 It doesn't have to do with their wealth or their T size of

11:43:17 their property.

11:43:18 And I think it's discriminatory to just tell somebody -- I

11:43:23 have a chicken and you can't because you have a bigger yard.

11:43:26 I would like to change that if council would agree with that

11:43:29 and go back and -- we could come back another time and talk

11:43:33 about the community garden ordinance.

11:43:35 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Anyone in the audience care to speak on

11:43:36 the second part of the first part of the third party part?

11:43:40 Mr. Cohen.

11:43:40 >>HARRY COHEN: I actually agree completely with what Ms.

11:43:44 Mulhern said.

11:43:45 There was not an intention to exclude larger lots from this.

11:43:49 And I would go even further and say that I am not

11:43:53 necessarily convinced that it's inappropriate for the coops

11:43:58 to be in a side yard, if the lot is large enough.

11:44:02 I'll leave that, though, to our discussion and see what the

11:44:05 other council members want to go.

11:44:08 But I do agree with everything she said.

11:44:11 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you.

11:44:12 Mrs. Mulhern.

11:44:13 >>MARY MULHERN: I agree with the side yard thing, too.

11:44:15 But I think we if we just did the -- only have the accessory

11:44:22 structure -- if you use the accessory structure but got rid

11:44:28 of the backyard.

11:44:31 Thanks.

11:44:36 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Next?

11:44:36 Anyone in the audience?

11:44:37 >> Fran Costantino, president of the YM Ybor and historic

11:44:44 district.

11:44:45 We are here to support staff.

11:44:46 I know some council people are against chickens.

11:44:48 I think we do have them in VM Ybor and I think the main

11:44:53 reason we have them is for health reasons.

11:44:55 They are raising their chickens so they cannot worry about

11:44:59 salmonella or anything.

11:45:02 They are organic.

11:45:03 And we do the form that follows all the regulations, it's

11:45:07 absolutely clean.

11:45:08 The only question we had from one of our members was that it

11:45:12 refers to Hens only and not roosters.

11:45:15 And so that was the only thing, how can they discriminate

11:45:20 against me, I have five chickens and one rooster.

11:45:23 That was the only question and I don't know how we work out

11:45:26 with that with code.

11:45:27 How would you cite somebody for having chickens and then a

11:45:32 rooster?

11:45:32 That's all.

11:45:33 Thank you.

11:45:34 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Next, please.

11:45:35 >> I'm MINA Morgan, also an animal lawyer that represented

11:45:44 some people with chickens in relation to this ordinance.

11:45:48 My friends mostly have these chickens as pets.

11:45:51 I have one client that's a vegetarian, and they don't eat

11:45:57 eggs and give them away, and have a $700 bill for one

11:46:00 chicken because a raccoon mangled its leg and they had the

11:46:05 leg amputated.

11:46:06 I'm not sure why we have to treat chickens substantially

11:46:10 differently than we do dogs or cats.

11:46:11 If dogs or cats cause a nuisance or go onto other people's

11:46:15 property, then there should be some enforcement.

11:46:19 The Ferrell cats in my neighborhood do a lot more damage

11:46:22 than the chickens that my clients have their backyard and

11:46:26 never leave their back yards and never make a great deal of

11:46:29 noise.

11:46:30 And I can have with my two lots a German Shepherd.

11:46:34 I love German shepherds and represent a kennel that raises

11:46:37 them, and that will cause a lot more trouble than four or

11:46:41 five chickens and a lot more noise.

11:46:45 I know chickens are traditionally thought of as livestock.

11:46:49 But they are just birds.

11:46:51 I mean, they are quieter than my neighbor's parrots.

11:46:57 I'm not sure why we have to have limits on them more than

11:47:01 for other animals.

11:47:03 And why we don't treat chickens as more after new sans

11:47:07 problem if they become a nuisance rather than restricting

11:47:09 whether someone with a small lot can have their chickens.

11:47:16 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Thank you very much.

11:47:21 >>CATHERINE COYLE: One of the parts of your motion was that

11:47:23 the ordinance shall prohibit roosters, so that's why I

11:47:27 included that.

11:47:28 And there are other ordinances that I did read through,

11:47:33 traditionally not allowed because of the noise factor.

11:47:37 Just so you know, there is a slight rub when it comes to

11:47:39 animals, too.

11:47:40 Animals running at large are a public new nuisance.

11:47:45 That's just the way it is.

11:47:46 If the chickens are running at large, we also are declared a

11:47:50 bird sanctuary, the city is, so you can't molest, move, harm

11:47:54 a pigeon, let alone one of the chickens running around in

11:47:59 Ybor.

11:47:59 So there is a slight difference in if a chicken gets out and

11:48:03 running around.

11:48:03 It's not like a dog getting out and running along because

11:48:06 the birds are protected in general.

11:48:08 So really the deciding factors, I think, for you today

11:48:11 concept wise because if you want to restrict where you place

11:48:23 them on that yard, if you want to keep five for 5,000.

11:48:26 If you do keep 5 for 5,000 and don't count them as part of

11:48:30 the animal count, that would be pretty clean.

11:48:32 If you do count them as part of the animal count we probably

11:48:35 should amend the definition of kennel to be more than five,

11:48:38 just the numbers match.

11:48:41 Ultimately, if you are good with them being in the side

11:48:43 yard, in relationships with size of the yard, I think we

11:48:49 should probably put something in there to add what I was

11:48:53 hearing you say if you are meeting that 7-foot setback maybe

11:48:56 she shouldn't be there, but if you have a big side yard go

11:48:58 ahead and do it so we can put some kind of definition on how

11:49:01 that would fit in there.

11:49:03 That there has to be at least a dimensional setback from the

11:49:05 side property line.

11:49:08 That's pretty much it.

11:49:09 It's up to council which way you want to go on these

11:49:13 particular decisions.

11:49:14 And I could come back again like the other one on December

11:49:17 20th for staff report.

11:49:18 I checked with Mr. Territo.

11:49:20 And he did mention that he could take action to transmit to

11:49:23 the Planning Commission.

11:49:25 So I could come back with regulations.

11:49:30 >>HARRY COHEN: I would like to make a motion you come back

11:49:32 with a draft ordinance at our January 24th regular City

11:49:37 Council meeting under staff reports at 10 a.m., and that it

11:49:41 include the following provisions:

11:49:44 Consistent our discussion today that we allow Hens only, as

11:49:47 an accessory use to single-family residential uses,

11:49:50 regardless of lot size, as long as they meet the following

11:49:54 criteria:

11:49:56 That they not be permitted as accessory use to multifamily

11:49:59 uses, that we allow a ratio of five to 5,000 square feet

11:50:05 And that we cap the number so as not to have to amend the

11:50:14 kennel ordinance, that we require a coop to exist on the

11:50:20 property; and that in conformance with our accessory

11:50:25 structure setback, and that you make whatever other

11:50:32 amendments to city code as are necessary to implement this

11:50:37 ordinance and make the codes consistent, and that we have

11:50:41 the ability to, at the time the draft ordinance is presented

11:50:44 to us, to tweak some of these conditions as various

11:50:48 different council members want to weigh in on it.

11:50:51 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a motion by Mr. Cohen.

11:50:52 Any further discussion?

11:50:54 Mrs. Mulhern?

11:50:55 >>MARY MULHERN: I would ask if I can add an amendment.

11:50:58 And this if this would work.

11:51:01 If we could add an amendment to change the community garden

11:51:05 ordinance.

11:51:05 Or do we have to do that -- I'll bring it up another time.

11:51:15 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: I have a second by Mrs. Mulhern, motion

11:51:18 by Mr. Cohen.

11:51:19 All in favor of the motion?

11:51:20 Opposed?

11:51:20 >>FRANK REDDICK: Nay.

11:51:24 >>CHARLIE MIRANDA: Motion passes 4-1 oh.

11:51:29 >>CATHERINE COYLE: Coming back January 24 about draft.

11:51:33 Transmitting that to the Planning Commission with tweaks.

11:51:35 >>HARRY COHEN: Thank you very much.

11:51:39 That is the end of our workshop agenda for today.

11:51:41 But we do have new business from council members.

11:51:44 I would go right to left.

11:51:45 Mr. Suarez.

11:51:46 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Thank you, chair.

11:51:51 I would like to invite Mr. Philip Hale, Lucille Hart, to

11:51:57 provide us with Hart major projects on January 24, 2013, at

11:52:05 9:30 for five minutes.

11:52:06 >> Motion by Mr. Suarez, second by Mrs. Mulhern.

11:52:07 All those in favor please indicate by saying aye.

11:52:12 Mr. Reddick?

11:52:15 Mrs. Mulhern?

11:52:15 >>MARY MULHERN: Thank you.

11:52:18 I have one piece of new business.

11:52:19 I would like to present a commendation to Linda Carbone, CEO

11:52:26 of American Red Cross Tampa Bay chapter and foundation to

11:52:30 the -- commendation to founders and board of Red Cross

11:52:35 angels on December 20th.

11:52:37 >> Second by Mr. Reddick.

11:52:39 All those in favor?

11:52:41 I am going to pass the gavel to Ms. Mulhern for a moment

11:52:43 because I have two items of new business.

11:52:46 The first is I would like to make a motion to present a

11:52:48 commendation to the Lions Club of Ybor City holding a bacci

11:52:54 ball to raise money for their charities, and one particular

11:52:57 southeastern guide dogs incorporate.

11:52:59 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Second.

11:53:02 >>MARY MULHERN: All in favor?

11:53:04 >>HARRY COHEN: Second, on our agenda on December 6th,

11:53:10 under staff reports, there is an item talking about the

11:53:14 changing the name -- excuse me, about recommending the name

11:53:18 Courtney Campbell trail for council's consideration.

11:53:21 I would like to ask that former Councilwoman Saul-Sena be

11:53:27 asked to come in for five minutes during that presentation

11:53:29 to explain what this program is all about.

11:53:31 >>MIKE SUAREZ: Second.

11:53:34 >>MARY MULHERN: All in favor?

11:53:35 >>HARRY COHEN: And that is it.

11:53:40 And Councilwoman Montelione.

11:53:41 >>LISA MONTELIONE: Only one piece, Mr. Chair.

11:53:43 And that is the vision plan meeting for the north Tampa

11:53:49 community is tonight at Busch Gardens at the Gwazi pavilion.

11:53:56 The mayor will be present along with John Schuler, the

11:53:59 acting Executive Director of the innovation alliance.

11:54:04 The community has been working very hard on this vision

11:54:06 plan.

11:54:08 Surveys have been done, businesses and residents.

11:54:14 Tonight is the unveiling of the work that they have done

11:54:16 thus far.

11:54:16 It is not the end of the vision plan process, but surveys

11:54:21 will be revealed, the results of those surveys, and students

11:54:24 from USF who have been working on the history of the area

11:54:27 will also be on display.

11:54:30 There's a study, a circulated study for mass transit,

11:54:39 transportation alliance has been the focus group for that

11:54:41 study.

11:54:42 That will also be on display.

11:54:44 So along with beverages and bicycles and raffle prizes that

11:54:53 will be available to Busch Gardens, I urge anyone who lives,

11:54:57 works, plays in the north Tampa community between the Temple

11:55:00 Terrace, 275, Busch and Fowler, to come out tonight, six to

11:55:06 eight, Kwazi pavilions.

11:55:11 >> I know Councilman Reddick has somewhere to be at 12:30.

11:55:15 Mr. Shelby.

11:55:15 >> We have a motion by Mr. Reddick, second by Mrs. Mulhern.

11:55:24 >>MARTIN SHELBY: I didn't get an opportunity to bring this

11:55:26 up yesterday, but just so you know, council's calendar for

11:55:30 next year is currently being prepared by the clerk.

11:55:32 And Mrs. Marshall informs me it's going to come to you next

11:55:38 week for consideration.

11:55:38 But it was raised by Cathy Coyle to me he that in order to

11:55:42 speed up the process of sending things to the Planning

11:55:44 Commission and getting things back, council might want to

11:55:47 consider switching the CRA days with the workshop days, and

11:55:52 perhaps have the CRA meetings on the fourth of the month and

11:55:55 have the council workshops on the second.

11:55:58 Obviously, you are not prepared to do that today.

11:56:00 You are missing council members.

11:56:01 I haven't had a chance to talk to Councilman Reddick but I

11:56:05 want you to know that is something that has been requested

11:56:07 for consideration.

11:56:07 I will certainly talk with Councilman Reddick about that.

11:56:10 And when you see the calendar you can make that decision if

11:56:12 it's something you want to do and maybe Ms. Coyle can be

11:56:16 here to explain why council might want to do that.

11:56:18 She has told me that she has spoken to Bob McDonaugh and he

11:56:22 has no objection to that.

11:56:23 But that's affecting CRA.

11:56:28 Certainly council wants to consider that and Mr. Reddick is

11:56:31 chair.

11:56:32 >> We also may wants to consider that the CRA meetings tend

11:56:35 to be shorter and we have evening sessions that night, that

11:56:38 that's also part of the way that we plan things.

11:56:41 So we'll fix all that.

11:56:43 Thank you.

11:56:44 We are adjourned.

11:56:44 >>


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